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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3802
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mornin!
Below you will find the first pass on pirate faction frigates ready for public review. It is our hope to deliver a rebalance on all 15 non-SOE pirate faction ships this summer(yay). Before I lay out the numbers for the frigates as they stand currently, I want to talk a bit about the themes for each faction, where those themes stand in relation to the frigates, and how that might connect to the cruisers and battleships down the line.
Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
Blood: This line is very similar in some ways to Sansha. We have a battleship in the Bhaalgorn with a unique and valuable niche and then a frigate and cruiser that almost no one uses. The main difference with Blood is that, when it comes to energy warfare, you get very different roles at different sizes even with the same bonus, so it can be difficult to find a way to tie all three together. What we are proposing at the moment is to change the web effectiveness bonus to web range for the Cruor and Ashimmu(which is a broadly useful bonus AND doesn't overlap with Serpentis AND matches the Bhaalgorn) and then to give all three "old NOS", that is, Energy Vampires would continue to leech from your target until their cap reaches zero, regardless of your own cap level. This would be role bonus functionality that stacks on top of the old bonus to energy turret damage as well as the NOS/Neut effectiveness bonus from Amarr. This should offer a lot of new and powerful options to Blood Raiders without having any negative impact on the Bhaalgorn's current role.
Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
Serpentis: One of the strongest and most fun pirate factions at the moment is certainly Serpentis. We didn't want to make major changes in theme, but there is a big conversation that can be had about the web strength bonus. As it stands, at 10% per level, it is one of the strongest bonuses in the game and in the right situation it can feel downright broken. For now, I intend to leave it at full strength. While it is very powerful, I believe it delivers on the excitement and special feel that pirate factions ought to provide. If you disagree and feel that this bonus is having a negative impact on your gameplay please let us know and we can continue to weigh the pros and cons here as this balance pass continues.
Angel: And last we have the most popular pirate faction, which is doing pretty well at all three sizes. The biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships and a light case of OP. The Dramiel isn't getting any big changes and the other two Angel ships probably won't see any huge change in style or function either, but wait for later threads to discuss their specifics please.
For the frigs we are in a situation where there are two performing well (Dramiel and Daredevil) and 3 that are virtually unused. That means the buffs for those 3 (Succubus, Cruor, Worm) come in the form of pretty heavy attribute gains as well as re-design in terms of bonuses. In general this class is getting some updates to bring them into the post-tiericide world so things like base speed and lock range will get tweaks across the board.
Anyway, here you go, let us know what you think: (note: it's possible that there's typos or other small errors in these stat lists so if you notice something really odd just let me know)
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Slot layout: 3H(-1), 4M, 3L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2)
========================================================================================
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35
========================================================================================
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus ... |
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BadAssMcKill
Love Squad
641
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think the DD could use a tad more lockrange http://i.imgur.com/6j6cIZE.gif-á |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
300
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is good- and I love the idea for the sansha ones "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3033
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
To those curious (and old enough, to be fair), the plain english translation of the Cruor's bonus is "NOS fitted on this ship work like old pre-nerf NOS." Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Mizhir
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
57943
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Interesting....
The new direction for Sansha and Guristas is odd, but interesting. Can't wait to test some of it. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
Gempei
Marvinovi pratele Nulli Secunda
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
kill all incursion ratters, problem solved |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
402
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Damn nice, I will fly that Worm that has been in my hanger for years now. :) R.I.P. Vile Rat |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3806
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
BadAssMcKill wrote:I think the DD could use a tad more lockrange
E: Why does the Dram get such a huge PG nerf
The Dram was a typo, PG isn't changing.
DD got exactly a tad more lock range already =)
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Zaitsev Sabezan
Occupational Hazard Silent Infinity
11
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
I like these changes. You've managed to boost usefulness while also increasing the individual flavor and uniqueness of the different factions, especially Sansha, Gurista and Blood. Can't wait to try them out. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
The Worm looks interesting, I will have to test this once it comes out. It looks like fun. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
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GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
89
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
reserved
CRUOR for all the fleets!! |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6632
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these" Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
467
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
I really like these changes. The NOS change on the Blood ships is a very interesting one to have Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes
Twitter - TG_3 |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1208
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
succubus:
kiters wet dream, but no range bonus. not sure. i wonder if you can strap a 10mn ab on it. if it's supposed to be a too-fast to track closerange brawler its still going to die once webbed.
cruor:
really cool bonus choice.
worm:
the pimped drone thing sounds cool for the Gila and the Rattlesnake. But pimped Warriors are only cool against frigs, not sure about pimped valkyries. If the guristas managed to build their own drone ship, why don't they have their own drones ?
daredevil:
the daredevil/cruor gang will be a scary thing
dramiel:
nothing to say
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
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Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns Happy Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like, though I think Cruor should get a range bonus on ewar, even if its just on nos and not neuts. As it stands the web bonus is useless when neuting and the neut bonus is useless while webbing....... yeah I know it helps you catch stuff but still.
Guristas could make Gila and Rattlesnake very interesting. Question is Gila 50m3 drone or 20? and Snake 75m3? Hmmmm! |
Morwennon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? Ceterum censeo, the RLML and HML nerfs must be undone. |
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Double ASB worms, it'll be the pvp 2xmerlin on crack.
Excited for the curor and succubus personally. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3807
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships?
For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50.
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Kristoffon vonDrake
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
111
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
I must say that I feared for this day afraid that all the good ships (dramiel, daredevil) would be ruined but I am now relieved. Good work Sir! May you continue on this path on the cruisers and battleships and not ruin the good ones! Thanks. |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
402
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these"
My understanding is after you assign the drones, the bonuses are from the assisted character. Am I wrong? Will the drones still get the ship bonuses even after being assigned? R.I.P. Vile Rat |
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Morwennon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
86
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50. 350 makes it impossible to use the third rig slot if you use a T2 damage rig, though :(
Interesting changes, although it'll be kind of hard to size them up meaningfully until someone releases modified fitting tools. I like the new racial themes. Ceterum censeo, the RLML and HML nerfs must be undone. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4450
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'm kinda meh on the plan for the Bloodraiders. It might work OK with the cruor, but I worry about the Ashimmu. In both ships you have neut/nos amount bonuses but no range bonus, though perhaps the web range bonus will be enough to let you close with targets.
I do think it is hard to talk about the plan without seeing the changes for the cruisers though. If those work with the new plan, great. I don't fly many frigs, and am much more interested in cruiser changes. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Looks good. Cruor could use more web range. A small nerf to web strenght on DD could also be good (7.5% vs 10%) |
Jaro Essa
Dahkur Forge
10
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mr Doctor wrote:Guristas could make Gila and Rattlesnake very interesting. Question is Gila 50m3 drone or 20? and Snake 75m3? Hmmmm! You'd think it would have to be 50m^3 for each, with the Gila getting a role bonus to heavies and the Rattlesnake to sentries (would certainly boost interest in that hull again after the omni nerf). A 20m^3 bay and bonus to mediums on the Gila would be far too underpowered, surely, though a bonus to heavies would not seem to resolve the problem that Rise mentions, that the Gila has been overshadowed by the Ishtar. Certainly keen to see where this goes! |
elitatwo
Congregatio
201
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Weeeeeeeeeeeh, I think I know where this is headed
I was hoping for the Sansha lineup to get a tad more teeth and the Succubus is on the right way and here comes the 'but', please leave the powergrid as it was, so she will be a very scary dual-prop pwn-mobile.
I think the Daredevil with six turrets is more scary than she is now, so it will be best to do a tactical withdrawl, once you have one on your d-scan.
The Worm now makes me curious what you have in store for the cruisers.
It looks like the Worm has six effective drones which may look weak at first but will bite you were you sit on.
I don't fly any minmatar ships but the Blood Raider lineup with long range webs and the old NOS kinda 'feels' right with the Blood Raider lore. signature |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1208
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
btw: any chance we can get 10 run BPCs from the LP stores for these ships ? :D We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6634
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:Weaselior wrote:Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these" My understanding is after you assign the drones, the bonuses are from the assisted character. Am I wrong? Will the drones still get the ship bonuses even after being assigned? They retain the bonus from the ship that launched them. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
8245
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Some exciting looking changes here, nice to see that they actually benefit and encourage small scale pvp for once.. the web changes to blood ships are nice to see, finally evens the race out a bit as far as utility. Also im in favour of keeping the web bonus for serps so please do :-) |
Darth Felin
Monkey Attack Squad Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cruor need additional low instead of high badly. It is hard almost impossible to tank it, at least for armor. You can also move highslot to medium so we will have another shield tanker. Currently it is neither nor and to be honest you just don't need second nos with such bonus
Also worm is looking really boring, it is cool to have bonus for light drones on gila and medium on rattlesnake but it is just don't scale to the worm level, imho it is better to make something outstanding for it. For example give him 5 drones / leage dronebay and bonus to utility drones (web,ecm etc... maybe even remote repair ones too) instead of bonus to combat drones and it will be cool support for frigate fleets |
Jaari Val'Dara
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
72
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Yay, succubus is getting a boost. Gonna be a speedy little bugger.
How about a phantasm, is it getting a boost too? |
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:
It looks like the Worm has six effective drones which may look weak at first but will bite you were you sit on.
I don't fly any minmatar ships but the Blood Raider lineup with long range webs and the old NOS kinda 'feels' right with the Blood Raider lore.
2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P)
Gilbaron wrote:btw: any chance we can get 10 run BPCs from the LP stores for these ships ? :D +1 |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
151
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:12:00 -
[32] - Quote
Only shield tanked drone ship ingame that is viable.
"Lets take the redundant missile velocity bonus and make it a redundant missile damage bonus."
TSCA - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - POS Deployment Corp Sale/Boosting |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1208
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:14:00 -
[33] - Quote
Darth Felin wrote:Cruor need additional low instead of high badly. It is hard almost impossible to tank it, at least for armor and we already have more than enough frigates that have to fit MSE for tank.
Also worm is looking really boring, it is cool to have bonus for light drones on gila and medium on rattlesnake but it is just don't scale to the worm level, imho it is better to make something outstanding for it. For example give him 5 drones / leage dronebay and bonus to utility drones (web,ecm etc... maybe even remote repair ones too) instead of bonus to combat drones and it will be cool support for frigate fleets
the worm in it's proposed state has 6 effective drones. We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
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Bob FromMarketing
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
280
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
This looks awesome!
Rise, you should change the wording on the Cruor to
'Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level'
makes it easy to understand without hurting the English Language. |
Darth Felin
Monkey Attack Squad Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:[quote=Darth Felin] the worm in it's proposed state has 6 effective drones.
I know it and it is completely unrelated to my post, it is just boring mechanics |
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
203
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
i hate to be so negative, but you asked for opinions, an i have one:
unimaginative changes.
AB speed bonus for sansha makes sense how? Speed is a Minmatar thing, Minmatar, as in "can't afford as high-tech-as-other-races-so-goes-for-an-speed-option". While Sansha is one of the most technologically advanced factions in eve. What could have been some imaginative solution? how about some specific anti-drone ecm, that messes with bandwidths or drone control? That would actually sound like a technology sansha could have, doesn't it?
the blood changes actually make sense, even though they are not really creative.
guristas: drones used to be a gallente thing that amarr would sort-of-use-as-well-but-not-as-much-as-gallente.. but now we have amarr, gallente both drone operators.. so yeah, why not a lore wise caldari based faction being even more drone focused as well...
the blood change ends up being the only one that makes real sense, the other two don't really diversify those factions from the 4 main races, infact they seem to equal them out even more, rather than creating a rock paper scissors situation. 3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Darth Felin wrote:Cruor need additional low instead of high badly. It is hard almost impossible to tank it, at least for armor and we already have more than enough frigates that have to fit MSE for tank.
Also worm is looking really boring, it is cool to have bonus for light drones on gila and medium on rattlesnake but it is just don't scale to the worm level, imho it is better to make something outstanding for it. For example give him 5 drones / leage dronebay and bonus to utility drones (web,ecm etc... maybe even remote repair ones too) instead of bonus to combat drones and it will be cool support for frigate fleets the worm in it's proposed state has 6 effective drones.
How do you calculate 6 effective drones?
2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
one thing i still find strange is the daredevil and dramiel drone usage...
serpentis - based on gallente thus should have drones angel - based on minnie whose frigs don't have drones .. seems too me you should switch the the ships around on drones..
Angels - is shield tanked according too ibis yet here has same armour as shields why? nerf armour focus on shields+speed+kiting - masters of projectiles ? ... not convinced maybe stronger falloff bonus? will whole line have tracking bonus?
Serpentis - is the line attack or combat? daredevil lacks tank (is it armour or shields?) and is much slower than dramiel - sort out drone issue as described above - is falloff bonus going too be a line bonus? .. vigilant/vindi/daredevil have different bonuses falloff or tracking
Gurista - 300% seems a little high perhaps some comparison too 5 50% bonused drones would help here to clarify its usefulness -i like the missile damage bonus .. my concern is how much dps comes from both sources maybe some stats here please? - also still has 10 slots ? drone boats -1 slot should apply here
Blood Raider - i think some neut/nos range bonus would help here perhaps in exchange for some strength so 10% range and strength
webs - 60% is still strong as basic ... most e-war is poor as basic TD's ecm etc... webs/neuts seem too be on there own here.. webs make TP's obsolete in most situations ... an unbonused web is more powerful than a bellicose TP in effect this is wrong .. 10% web strength is also too strong even if you reduced web strength too a basic 30-40%.... i believe you need to look at rebalancing webs before you release these..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Zomgnomnom
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
24
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
This is the first time I have read a balance pass or a ship release in a long time and didn't instantly face palm. I hope the cruiser and battleship changes are this well thought through as well.
As always I'll reserve a final opinion for what actually gets released but thus far I'm pretty pleased. You left alone what wasn't broke, realigned some bonuses to where they should have been to begin with and tried some fun ideas on some of the most useless ships in the game. Kudos! |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: Gurista - 300% seems a little high perhaps some comparison too 5 50% bonused drones would help here to clarify its usefulness -i like the missile damage bonus .. my concern is how much dps comes from both sources maybe some stats here please? - also still has 10 slots ? drone boats -1 slot should apply here
5 drones with 50% bonus = 7.5 effective drones 2 drones with 300% bonus = 8 effective drones |
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
843
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
Initial thoughts are good. But, the web range bonus on the Cruor will be nice, but it doesn't synergize well with the neut/nos bonus, in that the range on the neut/nos will be ~1/2 of that of the web, making the web bonus moot once you have to get in range to take advantage of the other bonus on the hull. Has this been considered?
Also, the Sansha changes look great, and it'll really provide some dynamic play through clever use of ABs, small sigs and fun speeds. +1 there. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4874
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zomgnomnom wrote:This is the first time I have read a balance pass or a ship release in a long time and didn't instantly face palm. I hope the cruiser and battleship changes are this well thought through as well.
This |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
546
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Cruor looks sweet.
At first I was vastly underwhelmed by the direction for the Succubus. Then I read it again and realized the previous damage bonus had been rolled into the current role bonus (dps reserved) and a new per level AB velocity bonus added. So double velocity under AB (F-U webs) and same dps. This looks good.
I also like that a high slot got moved to a low. But the huge (-17MW really?) nerf to PG makes it pretty much mandatory to use it for a mAPC in order to use the utility high slot. Making it hard to fit the 10MN AB are we? ;) Free Ripley Weaver! |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
377
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Darth Felin wrote:Cruor need additional low instead of high badly. It is hard almost impossible to tank it, at least for armor and we already have more than enough frigates that have to fit MSE for tank.
Also worm is looking really boring, it is cool to have bonus for light drones on gila and medium on rattlesnake but it is just don't scale to the worm level, imho it is better to make something outstanding for it. For example give him 5 drones / leage dronebay and bonus to utility drones (web,ecm etc... maybe even remote repair ones too) instead of bonus to combat drones and it will be cool support for frigate fleets the worm in it's proposed state has 6 effective drones. How do you calculate 6 effective drones? 2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones
A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha............... I can't breathe! |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
776
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:30:00 -
[45] - Quote
Um... Why are they reducing one of the best functions of the worm? The ship can function as frigate support fielding 2 light missile launchers and a full flight of armor or shield rep drones. Your natural caldari resist means you can save tank slots for support and be a useful ship. Plus you can drop a flight of light drones to aid in dps.
The new worm... You take a great support ship and turn it into a glorified frig brawler. You take a ship that could snipe with a lone bouncer, then switch to warriors for close and gimp it. This isn't a balance, it's an attempt to render a ship absolutely useless save for brawling. Why, just to find a new niche for a ship that was already a versatile drone bunny?
Sorry, I think the worm needs major revision. In the least, the bonuses should aid the worm as a drone support ship. Give a bonus to repping and ewar drones instead of just damage. Hell, this could even give gurista a special niche as the only race where ewar drones are good. 2 bonus webbing drones could actually slow a target and not face a stacking penalty that renders the 4th and 5th drones useless.
So sorry, the worm rebalance is the worst thoughtout idea. I have loved all the rebalance work so far, but this just feels like tge indy nerd where you were all tired, focused on a limited function, and did not realize the alternative uses of a ship. Instead, you create a nerd in the guise of a boost that renders a niche ship to a piece of junk. Spread the bonus to ewar and logi drones and then there may be some hope. Otherwise, why ever fly a worm when a tristan can do better for cheaper? |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
843
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
The new Gurista bonus is nice, but I don't see the why? question answered. As in why would I use it over an Ishkur (and presumably an Ishtar/Domi)? Why use two strong drones vs five "enhanced" ones. I don't think the tracking/range bonuses on them will be overshadowed by stronger hp/damage ones.
Maybe we should give Guristas a bonus to ewar drones instead? Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Harvey James wrote: Gurista - 300% seems a little high perhaps some comparison too 5 50% bonused drones would help here to clarify its usefulness -i like the missile damage bonus .. my concern is how much dps comes from both sources maybe some stats here please? - also still has 10 slots ? drone boats -1 slot should apply here
5 drones with 50% bonus = 7.5 effective drones 2 drones with 300% bonus = 8 effective drones
mm.. im still not convinced by the bonus it seems it could be a little OP .. will the gila be bonused for heavies or medium drones?? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
74
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
These changes look decent so far, but I confess I'm a little disappointed that you're not taking this opportunity to balance the available racial blends -- we still have two Gal/Min and zero Cal/Min. Of course it's not necessarily mandatory to always have every combination represented, but it does feel like a missed opportunity. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
500
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
I think these changes look good. My only reservation is the afterburner theme for Sansha ships. In my experience, nobody uses afterburners outside of PvE. Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
LT Alter
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
98
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
Where it comes to the serpentis faction I believe the bonus should stay and I'm happy to hear that it is. The reason being while it may be considered an OP bonus at times, it is one of the few bonuses that doesn't really scale well into larger fleets. The vindicator and the vigilant are one of those few parts of eve gameplay that remain best used in medium sized engagement and help the smaller gangs fight the big gangs.
If you don't get what I mean by that, the fact is at the large combat scale these faction bs just aren't as popular because of their restricted range for dmg application and on the low range of the webs, making it largely ineffective for use in the larger gangs, while in smaller gangs that remain very compact and efficient they become key role ships that help them immensely. |
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1535
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:32:00 -
[51] - Quote
I don't usually fly pirate frigates. The two that are effective - Dramiel and DD, tend to be kiters which is not my play style. They also tend to make people run more then fight in FW. I have to say though that the Succubus and Cruor look very interesting. I know that the Worm got a nice DPS an fitting grid boost- but it really looks like you are running out of ideas for drone ships and I find myself rolling my eyes. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
also any chance of reducing prices on faction ships in general? paying 50 mil plus for a frig seems excessive Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1208
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
apparently :math: is hard We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
LT Alter
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
99
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:I think these changes look good. My only reservation is the afterburner theme for Sansha ships. In my experience, nobody uses afterburners outside of PvE.
Afterburners have some great uses in PvP. For instance the old Armor Hac fleets which relied on low sig to survive, and also now that fact remains. Also the 100mn Afterburners on cruiser ships to allow for very fast speeds that can't be stopped by a scram. The afterburner bonus on frigates will be incredibly helpful in this platform and will result in some interesting aspects and fits. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1087
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sansha: Sounds cool
Blood Raiders: Sounds good. Proposed wording: "Nosferatus drain capacitor from targets with less capacitor than you"
Guristas: Sounds interesting, although Im not entirely sure if 2 highly bonused drones is better than 5 moderately bonused drones. It makes it easier for people who want to kill them, but have low locked targets or w/e. That said, the worm seems pretty OP atm, with 8 equivalent drones, a tank bonus, another 100 dps in rocks AND a large speed boost relative to now. That puts it at 316 dps, unheated, while having a big tank (for a frigate)
Serp: I disagree on the web strength bonus. 1 90% web is equal to 5 normal webs. 2 90% webs is unmatched by any number of normal webs. Simply put, the bonus description (50% stronger) is NOT what the bonus does at all (between 5 and infinity times stronger). I would nerf the web strength to 75%, and then give the line a set of application bonuses (tracking and falloff for all of them). We had a massive thread on there discussing 90% web bonuses. Simply put, 90% webs allow you to hit a maximally sig tanked interceptor with large guns, even assuming perfect piloting from the interceptor. Its a broken bonus.
The dd could also use more lock range.
Angel: Yeah, they are fine.
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
365
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:41:00 -
[56] - Quote
Guys worm needs more lock range, drones are 60 km control range and worm can't even get 40 km.
It wouldn't be a game changer.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Hope Alar
Blue Tridents Sev3rance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:42:00 -
[57] - Quote
I like the sansha pass. I am on the fence about the cruor pass. It seems a bit odd to just invite an older mechanic to use on those ships. It does make some interesting ideas for a fit though....(triple/dual rep with 2 nos?). I like the web range on the blood raiders though. I guess the guristas changes are ok, but I don't fly them at all. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
377
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
My only two issues are the disparity between web range bonus and neut/nos strength bonus on the Blood ships.
I feel that these should be the same bonus. Either strength or range. Not either or but you guys might be doing that on purpose.
My other issue is the fact that an AB speed bonus on a ship more or less welds and AB to the ship. Especially ships that are supposed to be shield tankers as dual prop shield fits are difficult to do. The bonus is a strong one though. I just don't see the point in fitting a MWD to a sansha ship anymore. hhhmmmmmm. Also, give us True Sansha afterburners to match the ships. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1087
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:43:00 -
[59] - Quote
Also I think the curor and succubus really dont need fitting nerfs. |
Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns Happy Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Guys worm needs more lock range, drones are 60 km control range and worm can't even get 40 km.
It wouldn't be a game changer. As is true with many ships..... if you want to kite that far out, sacrifice something to increase lock range. |
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KiithSoban
Big Johnson's
35
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:49:00 -
[61] - Quote
OMG finally! So excited!
I must admit that I cannot comment at this time on specific stats b/c I haven't patched in the new stats to eft.
However, I will comment on the general direction for these ships:
Sansha: Props for using afterburners as a theme for this race, I like the unique idea. Honestly, I'm not sure where the Phant and Succ need to go and I don't have any revolutionary ideas. Be sure to give them an agility buff and tracking buff to make use of those ABs.
Blood: I practically drooled when I read what you had in store. IMO the bhaal is the most powerful ship in the game for <10 man combat. Giving it the "old neuts" would make it even more... awesome! As for how this will affect the ash, I actually like the ash in it's current state. It's not as underpowered as you think. However this ship too will benefit from the "old neuts" as I often ask my augs to cap transfer the ash because making it stable with sufficient tank is impossible. Simply adding the "old neuts" to the current ash will be a sufficient buff because you won't need the remote cap. Any1 else that thinks it would need any more is blind. The webbing bonus switching to range? heh, you know how 90% webs break dread combat on the small scale. For this class I don't think it would harm them much. Making the switch to range bonus is a good move.
Guristas: I kinda scratched my head at this one. Many people think Guristas ships should jam, but we all know how much you hate ECM. Idk y reducing the number of drones but giving them effectively the same effectiveness would change things much, unless you want to stealth nerf all drone hp so that the gruistas drones would be more resilient to smartbombs. Damage type change is pretty uninteresting.
Serp: This class is fine as it is. You saw how hard it was to try to change them. I foresee large community backlash if you do, but sometimes things need to be changed so dread blapping is not so broken.
Angel: People think the cyna needs a nerf. I disagree because any joe can take an 800 plate thorax with a nano in the low and slingshot the crap out of it. What I'm saying is that it does not need a nerf because you balanced other things around it. Honestly, the cyna isn't "worth it" to me anymore because of this, but maybe I'm not seeing something. The dram and the mach: They are good where they are for the same reason. The frig overhaul and Marauder rebalance really put these ships near the same level, and i feel comfortable with where they are now. I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)-á See CSM "reasonable things" |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
377
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:52:00 -
[62] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:My only two issues are the disparity between web range bonus and neut/nos strength bonus on the Blood ships.
I feel that these should be the same bonus. Either strength or range. Not either or but you guys might be doing that on purpose.
My other issue is the fact that an AB speed bonus on a ship more or less welds and AB to the ship. Especially ships that are supposed to be shield tankers as dual prop shield fits are difficult to do. The bonus is a strong one though. I just don't see the point in fitting a MWD to a sansha ship anymore. hhhmmmmmm. Also, give us True Sansha afterburners to match the ships.
On second thoughts. AB bonus for Sansha is good. When Phatasm gets rebalanced I fully expect it to lose a High slot for a mid and to be given a low slot (as it is missing a slot - 14 vs 15 on other ships) |
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
152
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:53:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:What we are proposing at the moment is to change the web effectiveness bonus to web range for the Cruor and Ashimmu(which is a broadly useful bonus AND doesn't overlap with Serpentis AND matches the Bhaalgorn) This made my day.
Awesome! |
LT Alter
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
99
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Sansha: Sounds cool Serp: I disagree on the web strength bonus. 1 90% web is equal to 5 normal webs. 2 90% webs is unmatched by any number of normal webs. Simply put, the bonus description (50% stronger) is NOT what the bonus does at all (between 5 and infinity times stronger). I would nerf the web strength to 75%, and then give the line a set of application bonuses (tracking and falloff for all of them). We had a massive thread on there discussing 90% web bonuses. Simply put, 90% webs allow you to hit a maximally sig tanked interceptor with large guns, even assuming perfect piloting from the interceptor. Its a broken bonus.
While this bonus can feel overpowered in that way, the main thing that makes it such an amazing bonus is the fact that it's scale ability is reverse to that of what most ships in eve end up, by that I mean when applied to larger fleets the web bonus is less and less important. While in smaller fleets it becomes more and more important. For this reason alone I believe it is one of the few bonuses in eve that need to stay as is, simply for the reason that they help smaller groups against bigger groups.
The fact that a vindicator can hit a frigate isn't really a large problem, it's certainly not prevalent enough to outweigh the good factors of the 90% webs. |
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:also any chance of reducing prices on faction ships in general? paying 50 mil plus for a frig seems excessive
The market (i.e. the players) decides the value of the pirate faction ships, not CCP. It costs practically nothing to build a pirate frigate if you have the BPC and about 10mil to build a cruiser. The price comes from the relative scarcity of the BPCs compared to standard ships, for which you can just by a BPO from an NPC sell order.
Oh and if you're worried about the prices being too high, you're in for a rough ride, because they are most certainly going to go up on a lot of these hulls now that a buff is incoming in the not-so-distant future. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1088
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:58:00 -
[66] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Sansha: Sounds cool Serp: I disagree on the web strength bonus. 1 90% web is equal to 5 normal webs. 2 90% webs is unmatched by any number of normal webs. Simply put, the bonus description (50% stronger) is NOT what the bonus does at all (between 5 and infinity times stronger). I would nerf the web strength to 75%, and then give the line a set of application bonuses (tracking and falloff for all of them). We had a massive thread on there discussing 90% web bonuses. Simply put, 90% webs allow you to hit a maximally sig tanked interceptor with large guns, even assuming perfect piloting from the interceptor. Its a broken bonus.
While this bonus can feel overpowered in that way, the main thing that makes it such an amazing bonus is the fact that it's scale ability is reverse to that of what most ships in eve end up, by that I mean when applied to larger fleets the web bonus is less and less important. While in smaller fleets it becomes more and more important. For this reason alone I believe it is one of the few bonuses in eve that need to stay as is, simply for the reason that they help smaller groups against bigger groups. The fact that a vindicator can hit a frigate isn't really a large problem, it's certainly not prevalent enough to outweigh the good factors of the 90% webs.
In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2950
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:59:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there. These changes are definitely interesting, and I especially like what you've done with the drones to make the Guristas a bit more unique. Is there an outside possibility of getting 3 new missile-based Pirate ships sometime down the road as well? Where the focus would be missiles, missiles and missiles (in that order). Thanks. +1 on the changes so far. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
739
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:00:00 -
[68] - Quote
Love the changes!
I'm glad you're keeping the Daredevil web! It is a great bonus when used properly (as that threadnought regarding the change earlier stated).
Look forward to flying everything else. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
For the worm. I would not mind loosing the missile damage if it meant replacing with drone mwd speed and tracking bonus... that would give it a solid niche as a interceptor killer. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
156
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:00:00 -
[70] - Quote
Welp, looks like I finally gotta start training up those amarr frigate skills. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1800
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:...give gurista a special niche as the only race where ewar drones are good.
This is actually kind of an amazing idea. It fits amazingly well with the Caldari, much like the other pirate factions (try to) fit with the Empire faction they're associated with. It's also nicely anti-Caldari, given that drones are a Gallente thing and Grr Gallente.
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Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there. These changes are definitely interesting, and I especially like what you've done with the drones to make the Guristas a bit more unique. Is there an outside possibility of getting 3 new missile-based Pirate ships sometime down the road as well? Where the focus would be missiles, missiles and missiles (in that order). Thanks. +1 on the changes so far.
Yes please to a missile pirate faction, but please make them armor tanking! I'm tired of my only cruiser-sized missile ship choices for an armor fleet being a bellicose or sacrilege. |
Lucy tzung
Deep Strike Mining Divison
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
the image looks awesome on the facebook page. I understand from the lore sansha use old terrain tech? might be wrong but would be cool to see a junk fixed old school looking terrain ship. just concept's from real future projects made to look like a pirate hybrid. I really cant wait to see some more arkwork though never mind fly one
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:04:00 -
[74] - Quote
Quote:For now, I intend to leave it at full strength
it's just one disappointment after another with you guys. anyway, the issue with daredevils is that people abuse links and faction webs for ridiculous range control, for easymode kiting. you should fix this by swapping the hybrid damage bonus for a blaster damage bonus, pushing it toward being a fast honour brawler, which is what it's supposed to be (or you could, you know, fix links). it sure does have a large turret damage bonus. I wonder if that's justified, really not sure.
Quote:Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
I'm giving this one 0/10. first of all, I'm pretty sure the current succubus only has 3 highs, not 4, and second I can see all the FW scrubs armour tanking it already, like they do with breachers and hookbills, because webs and tracking disruptors >>>>>> an extra lowslot, and this is a larger issue I guess. anyway, my main issue is being locked into using an AB, which would be ok if you could fit beams and had a range bonus, but you don't, so you just get auto wrecked by kiting ships, because you're in a dumb inflexible brawler that can't do anything. drop the utility high for a midslot, maybe buff up the tracking bonus if you want it to actually be useful - tracking bonuses are pretty weak generally, and find something else for its amarr frigate bonus. solo-wise, there's also the issue that everyone knows what your fitting is, which alone is a pretty good reason for me to never fly it.
Quote:Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
please stop with the web bonuses, they're really horrible and easily abused and broken by kiting scum with links. also, 3 lows and no armour bonus on a pirate armour frigate? this is a joke, it needs 4 or 5 or something. I'd be more looking at 2 midslot no-web bonus stuff. it also looks like it's still ridiculously slow. I think some thought should go into all of the mobility stats on these ships, because they're pretty inconsistent. some of these things currently are as slow as AFs (which also need to be rebalanced), with nothing to show for it.
I really like this one, except the speed. I would like to have 5 mids though. many shield frigates suffer from this - with the strength of webs (nerf webs pls), you really really cannot afford to not have a web, so you're stuck with a 1 slot tank, which sucks. I hope on the gila, you can bring it down to 20 bandwidth with a massive damage and possibly drone speed bonus, because this heavies on cruisers thing is an absolute joke, and sentries, while OP, are not ideal a lot of the time.
meh. it's not really bad, I guess, it's just so dull. I get the same thing with the firetail as this ship - it can do so many different fits, but I don't want to fly any of them.. I don't feel they need buffs, I'm just not interested in them at all. I guess I'm just not a scrub. |
sabastyian
Death By Design
22
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:04:00 -
[75] - Quote
May want to tone down the cruors web a tad, just seems like it could be abused on a ship like that. Beam cruor can get about 110-120 dps at 20-ish km. Someone more adept to frigate kiting could probably get more dps out of it. It'd be like a crow with a web bonus and more damage. |
Taritura
Akademia Milicyjna The North is Coming
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
Another excel expansion weee........ |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:06:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50.
god you guys are awful. stop this ****. or drop the calibration on damage rigs to sensible levels. |
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
NIGHTMARE - NEEDS a buff!
The nightmare is basically a POS. U cant use MWD on it cause u need every drop of cap for the lasers. If you want to stay inside your suggested speed buff, give a bonus on
MWD/AB cap use, e.g. 200% less cap use
Personally I would definatly prefer a DPS buff as the Nightmware is hardly compareable to many other newer ships anymore. In my opinion, it needs a drone upgrade to
100 Bandwidth /150 bay
Or you add pure laser buff if you wanna stick with lasers as THE weappon.
But PLEASE, do something to its DPS! |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2300
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:08:00 -
[79] - Quote
I am pretty sure you were making an attempt to out do the interceptor changes in the level of awesome and I gotta say, I think you did it.
I am literally going to spend all my monies on pirate faction frigates now (Already own like 15 DD"s so nbd) Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1091
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:08:00 -
[80] - Quote
Really what they should do is triple the calibration on trimarks and extenders |
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote:NIGHTMARE - NEEDS a buff!
The nightmare is basically a POS. U cant use MWD on it cause u need every drop of cap for the lasers. If you want to stay inside your suggested speed buff, give a bonus on
MWD/AB cap use, e.g. 200% less cap use
Personally I would definatly prefer a DPS buff as the Nightmware is hardly compareable to many other newer ships anymore. In my opinion, it needs a drone upgrade to
100 Bandwidth /150 bay
Or you add pure laser buff if you wanna stick with lasers as THE weappon.
But PLEASE, do something to its DPS!
more turrets, more cap along with an extra high .. since its down a slot on the other ships.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2799
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:13:00 -
[82] - Quote
Taritura wrote:Another excel expansion weee........ If you're sick of 'excel expansions' maybe you should try another game because I think you can expect many more of them in years to come. Personally, I find changes like this pretty exciting. Oh god. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
293
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:14:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Serpentis: One of the strongest and most fun pirate factions at the moment is certainly Serpentis. We didn't want to make major changes in theme, but there is a big conversation that can be had about the web strength bonus. As it stands, at 10% per level, it is one of the strongest bonuses in the game and in the right situation it can feel downright broken. For now, I intend to leave it at full strength. While it is very powerful, I believe it delivers on the excitement and special feel that pirate factions ought to provide. If you disagree and feel that this bonus is having a negative impact on your gameplay please let us know and we can continue to weigh the pros and cons here as this balance pass continues.
Personally I think the bonus is a bit over-powered. You need 4 standard 60% webs to equal the effect of a single % bonused web and while this isn't horrible on a Frigate, where fittings are tight and double 90% webs are rare on the larger ships it's down-right overpowering. The Vindicator specifically has more ability to take out smaller targets than any other ship in the game if they get within web range. and even after the Skirmish Link nerf that's still very close to 20km, meaning that the Vindi can keep most smaller ships out of effective weapons range, let alone effective tackle range.
If it was giving up something substantive for the massive advantage this might be somewhat balanced but it's the single hardest hitting sub-cap in the game right now and sees massive use in PvE and PvP relative to its cost.
The problem becomes that having the faction bonus degrade as the size moves up doesn't make a lot of sense IMO and a small bonus to web strength on a Battleship is going to have a hard time straddling the line between mostly useless and really over-powered. Slot-layout could be tweaked down to 4 on the Vindi to make this mostly a non-issue but previous discussions indicate that most Vindi pilots feel this would kill the ship, even if it got the 8-lows treatment of the Megathron. At the least it would make it almost impossible to shield-tank the thing, but whether that's good or bad is up for debate. |
Billy Hix
Team JK
113
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:17:00 -
[84] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Taritura wrote:Another excel expansion weee........ If you're sick of 'excel expansions' maybe you should try another game because I think you can expect many more of them in years to come. Personally, I find changes like this pretty exciting.
The real problem is that 50% of each expansion is Fozzie and Rise. As they are all about the balancing it means each expansion 'feels' like excel updates.
The real question is, how come Rise and Fozzie make up 50% of the changes each expansion. What are everyone else up to.
|
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
109
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:20:00 -
[85] - Quote
All these cool abilities make the Dramiel seem kind of bland =/
I hope it doesn't go like the Rifter. -áFear The Tribes |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1091
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:22:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Personally I think the bonus is a bit over-powered. You need 4 standard 60% webs to equal the effect of a single % bonused web and while this isn't horrible on a Frigate, where fittings are tight and double 90% webs are rare on the larger ships it's down-right overpowering.
You need 5 webs, and because of stacking penalty, no number of webs can match 2 90%s. |
Mythradites
High Flyers The Kadeshi
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:24:00 -
[87] - Quote
Why are you focusing on lower SP ships when you have players who have committed years and years to you, yet all they get are capital nerf after capital nerf...part of the attraction of Eve Online is the ability to fly big and sexy ships. But when you don't give any love to capital ships in YEARS with nothing more than nerfs you will start to lose your senior players. I understand that this is geared towards newer players and thats great...but when you give way to a player base who wants nothing more than a big blue doughnut and you bend to their whim when they don't like the way the game is going *read not in their direction* they cry for a nerf and you oblige. This is sad...albeit I will continue to play because never the less...I am addicted. |
scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:25:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
I thought we were going away from X damage type missile bonus. At least it includes therm, so it's not as terrible. I don't understand why give missiles the ability to choose damage type when you are usually restricted to which damage type you use by the ships bonus. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
293
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:26:00 -
[89] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Personally I think the bonus is a bit over-powered. You need 4 standard 60% webs to equal the effect of a single % bonused web and while this isn't horrible on a Frigate, where fittings are tight and double 90% webs are rare on the larger ships it's down-right overpowering.
You need 5 webs, and because of stacking penalty, no number of webs can match 2 90%s.
Yup, I say 4 because it's like, .2% off if I remember the math I did months back, which is generally close enough, and yeah 2 90% webs is hilarious. I saw your post, very well written :) |
Umberto Burgundh
Federation Of Free Worlds AAA Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:27:00 -
[90] - Quote
Not sure about the way you want to evolve Guristas. I mean - when you control 5 drones, well, not a big deal if one doesn't hit. But when you control only two and one of them doesn't hit, you deal only half the damage.
|
|
Jamir Von Lietuva
LDK Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:27:00 -
[91] - Quote
i bet Cynabal is going to be the new Phantasm, its sooo stronk we dont need to rebalance it now, but when everything else is so competitive these days after the balance angel ships will probably turn out to be least used due to being outperformed in almost everything. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:28:00 -
[92] - Quote
Rise
i would also strongly look at the daredevil and dramiel
dramiel has better cap and speed and tank and has drones and smaller sig radius and much better fitting...
daredevil needs more cap for blasters and webs.. more fitting for blasters and plates and more speed to compensate.. more armour for plate tank .. less shields .. give some drones
dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked but has far too much armour in comparison .. has more speed than inties do. and has more cap than daredevil for its capless guns ... remove drones
succubus - more fitting might be useful being lasers and all .. also reduce armour too prevent people just plating it.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:29:00 -
[93] - Quote
Umberto Burgundh wrote:Not sure about the way you want to evolve Guristas. I mean - when you control 5 drones, well, not a big deal if one doesn't hit. But when you control only two and one of them doesn't hit, you deal only half the damage.
I can only imagine that they were thinking of honourable solo pvpers like me who fly drone ships, and get blobbed and have to leave 5 drones behind every time, then go shopping for more. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2027
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:29:00 -
[94] - Quote
Hmmm...
I'll get back to you on this. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
293
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:29:00 -
[95] - Quote
scimichar wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there. I thought we were going away from X damage type missile bonus. At least it includes therm, so it's not as terrible. I don't understand why give missiles the ability to choose damage type when you are usually restricted to which damage type you use by the ships bonus.
People have run the numbers on this a dozen times. The ships with missile specific bonuses get more launchers so they get more damage by default than other missile ships. Compare the damage on the Cerb vs the Sacrilege with various missile types. Plus having type-specific bonuses means you use that missile except when you get more from another type. Simple but with an interesting trade-off. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:29:00 -
[96] - Quote
Mythradites wrote:Why are you focusing on lower SP ships when you have players who have committed years and years to you, yet all they get are capital nerf after capital nerf...part of the attraction of Eve Online is the ability to fly big and sexy ships. But when you don't give any love to capital ships in YEARS with nothing more than nerfs you will start to lose your senior players. I understand that this is geared towards newer players and thats great...but when you give way to a player base who wants nothing more than a big blue doughnut and you bend to their whim when they don't like the way the game is going *read not in their direction* they cry for a nerf and you oblige. This is sad...albeit I will continue to play because never the less...I am addicted.
1. this is the wrong palce to whine about capital nerfs 2. do you honestly belive nerf to tracking titans was bad for the game? Or changes that make it harder for 100man fleet to just RR until downtime with no realistic chance to loose a ship?
Changes that goes against you can still be good for the game. Its also safe to assume that the pure number of pilots in CFC means that there are some in there that can come up with good changes (number of pilots in PL for instance means there are less likely to be many there, statisticly speaking atleast) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:30:00 -
[97] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked
why |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:35:00 -
[98] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote: dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked
why
because that's what ISIS says .... shield tanked and masters of projectiles
the dramiel and daredevil need stronger focus on what they are supposed to be good at Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
I would imagine you would do similar to the Rattlesnake and Gila as you did the Worm, a 300% damage and HP buff to 2 drones. The problem for the Gila is medium drones generally suck DPS wise and are in dire need of a balance pass which could/would put the Gila in an awkward spot if it is balanced for use with medium drones before medium drones are re-done. A similar situation for the Rattlesnake will come up as it is usually Sentries or bust with large drones. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Rodrik Vikary
EVE University Ivy League
8
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:36:00 -
[100] - Quote
Just a little typo, don't know if anyone saw it already, but this:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
I think Caldari and Amarr are in the wrong places... |
|
Hope Alar
Blue Tridents Sev3rance
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:37:00 -
[101] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:All these cool abilities make the Dramiel seem kind of bland =/
I hope it doesn't go like the Rifter.
You could. you know, cross train? Doesn't take long. |
David Kir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
407
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:37:00 -
[102] - Quote
Billy Hix wrote:
The real question is, how come Rise and Fozzie make up 50% of the changes each expansion. What are everyone else up to.
NDA-«
I'm already getting my arse ready, the next year or two are gonna be a funky ride. Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4900
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:37:00 -
[103] - Quote
Umberto Burgundh wrote:Not sure about the way you want to evolve Guristas. I mean - when you control 5 drones, well, not a big deal if one doesn't hit. But when you control only two and one of them doesn't hit, you deal only half the damage.
I guess in the end it evens out, but I get what you are saying. I just don't see a huge appeal to the change. On a good note it means ECM drone spewing Worms are less of an issue, but I don't think I ever saw a Worm using ECM drones. . |
David Kir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
407
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:38:00 -
[104] - Quote
Mythradites wrote:Why are you focusing on lower SP ships when you have players who have committed years and years to you, yet all they get are capital nerf after capital nerf...part of the attraction of Eve Online is the ability to fly big and sexy ships. But when you don't give any love to capital ships in YEARS with nothing more than nerfs you will start to lose your senior players. I understand that this is geared towards newer players and thats great...but when you give way to a player base who wants nothing more than a big blue doughnut and you bend to their whim when they don't like the way the game is going *read not in their direction* they cry for a nerf and you oblige. This is sad...albeit I will continue to play because never the less...I am addicted.
Pirate ships are high SP ships. Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:39:00 -
[105] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote: dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked
why because that's what ISIS says .... shield tanked and masters of projectiles the dramiel and daredevil need stronger focus on what they are supposed to be good at
maybe its versatility should extend to being equally good at both. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2950
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:A similar situation for the Rattlesnake will come up as it is usually Sentries or bust with large drones. Medium drones might need a tracking bonus on the Gila and a tracking and speed bonus on the Rattlesnake for heavies. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Verlaine Glariant
Amphysvena
45
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:40:00 -
[107] - Quote
I've been a Sansha pilot for ages, way before the Incursion Sansha-themed expansion came out.
The Sansha technology, as the lore of the game says, relies on heavy laser weaponry and unnaturallyd resilient shield defenses. What we have here is, shield, propulsion and weaponry they all eat capacitor, and let me say one thing: Sanshas capacitor is not precisely out or the ordinary. There are HACs with way better cap management. What we really have in fact are ships that can not maintain that shield tank they should excel at because the cap is dry when the battle just started (assuming you're not being cap-drained or cap-neutted).
So, when talking about Sansha ships, the problem is the capacitor.
In this case scenario, the reasonable path to follow would be simply add a Turret Capacitor Need bonus and Shield Modules Capacitor need bonus, and also increasing both capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge rate.
However this would never give the Sansha ships any sign of uniqueness (besides their alien shape, that is). The Afterburner nearly-exclusive bonus seems very interesting and you're going in the good direction, but you're not quite there yet. In my opinion, Sanshas need some kind of special unique ability that no other faction or ships could ever have.
Something like (and this is just an example) a built-in short-range (50km?) MJD, or reducing in a 15% per skill level the CD on MJD's. Please not that I'm using MJD's as an example. This idea could apply to any other abilities for the Sanshas.
Add to this the ability to join Pirate factions in FW and voil+í! (and while you're at it, give us some FW exclusive skills/ships/modules).
Dreaming is free. www.amphysvena.org |
Black Canary Jnr
Red Galaxy Disband.
86
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:40:00 -
[108] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:also any chance of reducing prices on faction ships in general? paying 50 mil plus for a frig seems excessive
By my calculations lvl 4 pirate missions in a T3 for the BRs are worth about 60 mil an hour. Now they will be worth more with actual good ships, so no, thou shalt not have cheaper pirate ships. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4900
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:40:00 -
[109] - Quote
Hope Alar wrote:Ayallah wrote:All these cool abilities make the Dramiel seem kind of bland =/
I hope it doesn't go like the Rifter. You could. you know, cross train? Doesn't take long. I think everyone should cross train all frigates. Like Alar said, it doesn't take long. The flexibility and enjoyment are well worth it. . |
Mythradites
High Flyers The Kadeshi
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:40:00 -
[110] - Quote
Pirate ships are high SP ships.
2 weeks and both frigate skills are to V.
Please think beyond the end of the month.
|
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1092
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:40:00 -
[111] - Quote
I appear to have misread the succubus bonus.
I thought it was a flat 20% bonus. It appears to be 20% per level. This is incredibly broken. I thought a 50% bonus was tested during the assault frigate rework, and was found to be unworkably broken, and this is a 100% bonus. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:41:00 -
[112] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there. I would imagine you would do similar to the Rattlesnake and Gila as you did the Worm, a 300% damage and HP buff to 2 drones. The problem for the Gila is medium drones generally suck DPS wise and are in dire need of a balance pass which could/would put the Gila in an awkward spot if it is balanced for use with medium drones before medium drones are re-done. A similar situation for the Rattlesnake will come up as it is usually Sentries or bust with large drones.
well the gila could have 3 drones if needed .. the 10% damage bonus on HAMS should be pretty nice on 4 launchers.. the extra tracking and speed of mediums will give better damage application anyway...
but where is the -1 slot for droneboats here?? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:41:00 -
[113] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:A similar situation for the Rattlesnake will come up as it is usually Sentries or bust with large drones. Medium drones might need a tracking bonus on the Gila and a tracking and speed bonus on the Rattlesnake for heavies.
drones need a particular amount of tracking for their speed. medium drones to be usable as the main source of damage on a medium ship need to be much faster, and therefore to have a load more tracking as well. drone navs also need to increase tracking, imo. |
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:43:00 -
[114] - Quote
I hate it when they mess with the ships I like. They could have rebalanced by adding new ships, affordable ones! People want more content not nit picking the bits we already have and messing up loadouts. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:44:00 -
[115] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote: dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked
why because that's what ISIS says .... shield tanked and masters of projectiles the dramiel and daredevil need stronger focus on what they are supposed to be good at maybe its versatility should extend to being equally good at both.
the same versatility that minnie ships have? .. there needs to be more distinction between the 2 races.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Hope Alar
Blue Tridents Sev3rance
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:44:00 -
[116] - Quote
Verlaine Glariant wrote:I've been a Sansha pilot for ages, way before the Incursion Sansha-themed expansion came out.
The Sansha technology, as the lore of the game says, relies on heavy laser weaponry and unnaturallyd resilient shield defenses. What we have here is, shield, propulsion and weaponry they all eat capacitor, and let me say one thing: Sanshas capacitor is not precisely out or the ordinary. There are HACs with way better cap management. What we really have in fact are ships that can not maintain that shield tank they should excel at because the cap is dry when the battle just started (assuming you're not being cap-drained or cap-neutted).
So, when talking about Sansha ships, the problem is the capacitor.
In this case scenario, the reasonable path to follow would be simply add a Turret Capacitor Need bonus and Shield Modules Capacitor need bonus, and also increasing both capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge rate.
However this would never give the Sansha ships any sign of uniqueness (besides their alien shape, that is). The Afterburner nearly-exclusive bonus seems very interesting and you're going in the good direction, but you're not quite there yet. In my opinion, Sanshas need some kind of special unique ability that no other faction or ships could ever have.
Something like (and this is just an example) a built-in short-range (50km?) MJD, or reducing in a 15% per skill level the CD on MJD's. Please not that I'm using MJD's as an example. This idea could apply to any other abilities for the Sanshas.
Add to this the ability to join Pirate factions in FW and voil+í! (and while you're at it, give us some FW exclusive skills/ships/modules).
Dreaming is free.
AB Bonus is 100% unique...there is no need to overbuff Sansha.
|
Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
124
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:44:00 -
[117] - Quote
Mythradites wrote: Pirate ships are high SP ships.
2 weeks and both frigate skills are to V.
Please think beyond the end of the month.
I wasn't aware you could also train up all the core skills, the T2 weapon skills, nav skills, and drone skills in 2 weeks. I must've done it wrong.
Just because it is a lower sp ship doesn't mean it doesn't need balanced. They have been doing a bottom up revamp of many ship lines recently, and with the influx of new players there is nothing wrong with giving newer players a boost before higher players. Frigs and cruisers use far outweigh BS anyways, so the way they're going about balancing, is ideal. |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Nightmare Machinery Illusion of Solitude
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:44:00 -
[118] - Quote
The Dramiel needs something special other than "OP Firetail", in my opinion. Sansha got afterburners, Blood Raiders got webs and nosferatu, Guristas got super drones, Serpentis got 90% web and Angel got what? I wouldn't mind a nerf to the Angel ships if we got a special bonus like the other pirate races. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:46:00 -
[119] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I appear to have misread the succubus bonus.
I thought it was a flat 20% bonus. It appears to be 20% per level. This is incredibly broken. I thought a 50% bonus was tested during the assault frigate rework, and was found to be unworkably broken, and this is a 100% bonus.
yes... im intrigued by just how fast the sansha line of ships will be... but capacitor is something that needs the most attention on these ships... maybe allowing for a nos in the highs would be good but they never have the grid for it .. lasers still need lower fitting.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1018
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:46:00 -
[120] - Quote
"Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed"
You should swap these two bonuses on the succubus. Right now it makes no sense at all :D Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. |
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:47:00 -
[121] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:The Dramiel needs something special other than "OP Firetail", in my opinion. Sansha got afterburners, Blood Raiders got webs and nosferatu, Guristas got super drones, Serpentis got 90% web and Angel got what? I wouldn't mind a nerf to the Angel ships if we got a special bonus like the other pirate races.
actual effective projectile turrets, ridiculous speed, sig, agility and scan res should be enough to make a decent ship.
if not though, I'm voting for split weapons, provided that light missiles are fixed before any more missile frigates are made. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:48:00 -
[122] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:The Dramiel needs something special other than "OP Firetail", in my opinion. Sansha got afterburners, Blood Raiders got webs and nosferatu, Guristas got super drones, Serpentis got 90% web and Angel got what? I wouldn't mind a nerf to the Angel ships if we got a special bonus like the other pirate races.
mm... maybe something like an mwd sig radius bonus like the dictors get?? maybe in exchange for the tracking bonus or maybe added as an extra role bonus? the SOE line has a ton of role bonuses but these seem too be limited to 1 ..odd Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:49:00 -
[123] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:The Dramiel needs something special other than "OP Firetail", in my opinion. Sansha got afterburners, Blood Raiders got webs and nosferatu, Guristas got super drones, Serpentis got 90% web and Angel got what? I wouldn't mind a nerf to the Angel ships if we got a special bonus like the other pirate races. actual effective projectile turrets, ridiculous speed, sig, agility and scan res should be enough to make a decent ship. if not though, I'm voting for split weapons, provided that light missiles are fixed before any more missile frigates are made.
split weapons and being able to armour tank ... these are minnie traits .. the angel line needs more uniqueness and distinction away from minnie ships Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
364
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:50:00 -
[124] - Quote
Yes nice.
But if you are still on the frigate lever , BIG NEW EXPANSION , re balance. Then when you will move to the battleship or capital ship level?
Or maybe you will add to one of those frigates : - 20.000% damage against capital ships
Faction Dreadnoughts
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1092
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:51:00 -
[125] - Quote
nm |
Vadeim Rizen
TYR. Exodus.
16
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
Dear Kil2
Please, do 2 things for me when you get around to faction cruisers
1) give the vigilant a much longer lock range. 40km isn't enough compared to deimos 120km lock rangel. ~70 should suffice.
2) make the cynabal worth flying again.
thanks! GÖÑ Vad |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1108
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:51:00 -
[127] - Quote
Umberto Burgundh wrote:Not sure about the way you want to evolve Guristas. I mean - when you control 5 drones, well, not a big deal if one doesn't hit. But when you control only two and one of them doesn't hit, you deal only half the damage.
and when u get a smashing or wrecking hit? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
The Upright Woman
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:52:00 -
[128] - Quote
Hope Alar wrote:Ayallah wrote:All these cool abilities make the Dramiel seem kind of bland =/
I hope it doesn't go like the Rifter. You could. you know, cross train? Doesn't take long. 'Use something else' is hardly a practicable solution to a problem in the balancing stakes, wouldn't you agree? Since you know, the entire point of the thread is to discuss relative levels of balance... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:53:00 -
[129] - Quote
did you even read the quoted parts or what? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Ultimate Tales
Depressed Noobs
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:53:00 -
[130] - Quote
Sorry but Worm with one drone pack? Changes are fine but allow him to have 2 setups of drones. If I want switch drone dmg I need dock and change drones. No1 using him cause he dont have dmg, is expensive. Now you want give him more dmg but one drone bay on drone ship sound gay... Tristan > Worm - before and after your changes if you dont allow him to 50 drone capacity. |
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stg slate
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:54:00 -
[131] - Quote
Worm:
I enjoy the new bonuses drone direction, but I'm afraid of what the Gila will look like based on that.
No matter what bandwidth you give the Gila I'll fill it full of Warrior 2's and a few drone nav computers and have 300% bonused, very fast Warrior 2's murdering frigates.
Current game mechanics with bandwidth won't let you expand out this design to the Gila or Rattlesnake without creating a balance issue at those levels.
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1092
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:54:00 -
[132] - Quote
Ultimate Tales wrote:Sorry but Worm with one drone pack? Changes are fine but allow him to have 2 setups of drones. If I want switch drone dmg I need dock and change drones. No1 using him cause he dont have dmg, is expensive. Now you want give him more dmg but one drone bay on drone ship sound gay... Tristan > Worm - before and after your changes if you dont allow him to 50 drone capacity.
The worm will have 2.5 flights of drones. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4900
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:54:00 -
[133] - Quote
Would be nice if these (and or other frigates) had a role bonus to use the Target Spectrum Breaker.
-100% to CPU and Power grid needed -100% to capacitor needed -83.5% to cycle time (would mean after the support skill Target Break Amplification skill to level 5 it would have a cycle time of 1 second)
This would allow these pirate frigates the ability to enter a large battlefield and take targets on a more mano-a-mano style combat in the mist of all the F1 on primary nonsense we have now.
Or... introduce the TSB for cruisers and frigates already. . |
Eric Shang
The Bastards The Bastards.
91
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:55:00 -
[134] - Quote
I have been told that the succubus has cap problems and its hard to fit it correctly?
Will these changes actually help this? I like the look of them. MAD MAX Biker Helmets |
Nicen Jehr
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
350
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:55:00 -
[135] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress) Bob FromMarketing wrote:'Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level' much better, but someone who doesn't know the mechanics (or has only nos'd NPCs) might not understand that it will not drain any if they cap their opponent out. so maybe
Nicen Jehr wrote: "Role Bonus: Your Energy Vampires are not limited by your capacitor percent; they instead drain the target ship's capacitor as long as it has any capacitor left to take."
Little Things to improve GëíGïüGëí-á| My Little Things posts |
Meandering Milieu
FML LLC
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:59:00 -
[136] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote: No-one shield tanks a dominix.
If we are talking for pvp, you might be right. I dunno cause I don't really pvp.
If you are talking about pve, I can't tell you how entirely wrong you are about nobody shield tanking a domi, or since you are talking about a about the RS, a navy domi as well. |
Kmelx
Matari Exodus
60
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:00:00 -
[137] - Quote
Remove the 90% web bonus from all serp ships or nerf it , removing it from the ashimmu is a great start, but don't leave it on the serp hulls.
In my experience 90% webs have two primary in game uses, that is to make gate camps inescapable because you cannot re-approach or it is extremely difficult in even the fastest ships, or they are used to slow ships down to the point where dreads track them so you can blap them. Neither of these mechanics are particularly desirable imo. Gate camping is pretty lame and so is dread blapping.
If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web. That makes it possible to at least try to blap a DD on a gate and get out if you run across a camp using 90% webs and it nerfs dread blapping at the same time and gives you a better chance to re-approach if you run into someone camping with Vigilants for example.
So say 90% web on on the DD and 80% on the Vigi and 70% on the Vindi for web strength as figures I just pulled out of the air.
I don't like the way your going with Guristas Hulls either, as someone else pointed out if you have two drones and one is missing that is half your deeps, if your going to do this you have to give the hulls a small drone tracking buff so they are not missing quite as often imo.
|
Sublime Rage
Righteous Immortal Pew Darwins Lemmings
1403
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:02:00 -
[138] - Quote
love the direction they are taking,looking forward for the next reveals |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
293
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:02:00 -
[139] - Quote
Breselyer AnDu wrote:I hate it when they mess with the ships I like. They could have rebalanced by adding new ships, affordable ones! People want more content not nit picking the bits we already have and messing up loadouts.
No, I'm pretty sure people want existing content to be balanced. Just because you like flying your OP ship doesn't mean it's fun for others to fly against something that's OP. There is no amount of adding new ships that is going to make something currently OP not OP, and it certainly won't make something that sucks better by association (somehow, magically!) |
Stephanie Rosefire
Starfleet Academy Red Squad
18
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:02:00 -
[140] - Quote
ok, i think these are great (especially the succubus, me being a hard core amarrian, and flying the nightmare in incursions, i think that these buffs will be awesome!) i just wanted to make not of something, and i know that this was talked about before.
BUT.
there are no caldari/minmatar pirate faction ships. in short, i think that the rebalance will be an awesome opportunity to create this missing faction of ships. Mordu Legion combat ships? with massive missile bonuses? would fill a hole.
anyway, keep up the great work! |
|
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
293
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
So, a thought on the Serpentis Webs problem. What about keeping the web bonus around but hard-limiting the hulls to a single web.
Alternatively, make it so the effectiveness of the total webs on a target can't exceed 90%. This soft-cap already exists with normal 60% webs, this would just make it an official hard-cap so 2 Daredevils don't make things Dread-fodder.
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:ok, i think these are great (especially the succubus, me being a hard core amarrian, and flying the nightmare in incursions, i think that these buffs will be awesome!) i just wanted to make not of something, and i know that this was talked about before. BUT. there are no caldari/minmatar pirate faction ships. in short, i think that the rebalance will be an awesome opportunity to create this missing faction of ships. Mordu Legion combat ships? with massive missile bonuses? would fill a hole. anyway, keep up the great work!
Mordu's Legion are Gallente/Caldari but with more of a focus on Hybrid weapons. There currently isn't a Caldari/Minmattar faction in the game so one would have to be added. It'll probably happen eventually but I think most of the design bandwidth for the summer release is spoken for already. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1535
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:05:00 -
[142] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Michael Harari wrote:I appear to have misread the succubus bonus.
I thought it was a flat 20% bonus. It appears to be 20% per level. This is incredibly broken. I thought a 50% bonus was tested during the assault frigate rework, and was found to be unworkably broken, and this is a 100% bonus. yes... im intrigued by just how fast the sansha line of ships will be... but capacitor is something that needs the most attention on these ships... maybe allowing for a nos in the highs would be good but they never have the grid for it .. lasers still need lower fitting..
Some loose playing around on the Succubus:
High: Small Focused Pulse Laser II x 2 Meta Neut Mid: AB II MASB Meta Web Meta Scram Low: DC II HS II Nano II
Less then a PG to spare. 5.5 CPU left over. I imagine you would have to have fitting implants or go to dual light pulses in order to fit faction gear on it. |
Eric Shang
The Bastards The Bastards.
91
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:07:00 -
[143] - Quote
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:there are no caldari/minmatar pirate faction ships. in short, i think that the rebalance will be an awesome opportunity to create this missing faction of ships. Mordu Legion combat ships? with massive missile bonuses? would fill a hole. anyway, keep up the great work!
Rust with shields? Intresting |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
258
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:08:00 -
[144] - Quote
The Guristas rebalance worries me a bit. Drones as a weapons system are kind of in flux right now, it looks like they're on the docket for huge revamps in the not-too-distant future (or so we hope) and there's lots of issues with how they work now. I particularly noted the comment from a Goon a few pages back about how it's an invitation to make an assist fleet with the Gila or Rattlesnake with the new cap of 50 drones. Maybe you know something I don't, but this seems like a direction that will lead to either a broken ship line that dominates doctrines or something that becomes largely irrelevant when drones as a whole get revamped.
One thought I had is that the Guristas have one other strength: ECM. All right, I know the concept of faction ECM ships is scary as all hell and Caldari have shield ECM pretty well nailed, but I think it could be done in a way that doesn't make it completely broken or redundant. Namely, keep the drone theme.
An EWAR drone bonus (not just ECM, but all disruption drones) would be unique and interesting, counterable (in w-space we have gotten into the habit of fitting smartbombs into the highs of certain ships for this exact purpose), and side-step the entire drone assist mess (can't assist ewar drones!). Give them moderately strong launcher damage besides and you have a rather unique and interesting ship that can have an impact at all three sizes.
I think my only concern going that route would be that the Worm might become TOO strong in 1v1 situations, but that would depend on the number of drones available and the total magnitude of the strength bonus. Having only two drones out but each one jamming with Scorpion strength (or Falcon multispec strength) seems...plausibly balanced?
On the whole I would like to campaign for more interesting disruption-oriented faction ships like the Blood Raider line. As w-space knows better than anyone, the full-neut Bhaalgorn is a monstrously powerful ship that can become the deciding factor in a fight. A full-neut Bhaal with 30km webs creates a 30km sphere of death for any subcap that needs capacitor for anything (particularly effective on wormholes), and they are death incarnate for carriers. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2299
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:10:00 -
[145] - Quote
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:Harvey James wrote:also any chance of reducing prices on faction ships in general? paying 50 mil plus for a frig seems excessive The market (i.e. the players) decides the value of the pirate faction ships, not CCP. It costs practically nothing to build a pirate frigate if you have the BPC and about 10mil to build a cruiser. The price comes from the relative scarcity of the BPCs compared to standard ships, for which you can just by a BPO from an NPC sell order. Oh and if you're worried about the prices being too high, you're in for a rough ride, because they are most certainly going to go up on a lot of these hulls now that a buff is incoming in the not-so-distant future.
Some will go up. Market is already moving on the Cruor bigtime. Some, like the Daredevil, which took a slight nerf in tank and other areas, will drop, as the others become more attractive. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:11:00 -
[146] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote:I hate it when they mess with the ships I like. They could have rebalanced by adding new ships, affordable ones! People want more content not nit picking the bits we already have and messing up loadouts. No, I'm pretty sure people want existing content to be balanced. Just because you like flying your OP ship doesn't mean it's fun for others to fly against something that's OP. There is no amount of adding new ships that is going to make something currently OP not OP, and it certainly won't make something that sucks better by association (somehow, magically!)
New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:14:00 -
[147] - Quote
a problem with the blood raider line is that lasers use more fitting than neuts/nos do ...
i would think it would make sense if the lines bonus of laser damage was actually forced on it rather than allowing full racks of neuts and nos .. seems a bit odd too me that a bonus is effectively a very optional thing rather than a more incumbent usage.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4901
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:15:00 -
[148] - Quote
jonnykefka wrote:The Guristas rebalance worries me a bit. Drones as a weapons system are kind of in flux right now, it looks like they're on the docket for huge revamps in the not-too-distant future (or so we hope) and there's lots of issues with how they work now. I particularly noted the comment from a Goon a few pages back about how it's an invitation to make an assist fleet with the Gila or Rattlesnake with the new cap of 50 drones. Maybe you know something I don't, but this seems like a direction that will lead to either a broken ship line that dominates doctrines or something that becomes largely irrelevant when drones as a whole get revamped. The assisted drone thing heavily relies on being able to use a sentry drone, which of course is 25 bandwidth and the Worm will only be able to field 10 bandwidth. That said, I understand your concern. I just don't think it is something to worry about too much right now considering they are only changing a few numbers, which can be easily adjusted later down the road when a full blown drone rebalance is done. . |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1108
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:15:00 -
[149] - Quote
Breselyer AnDu wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote:I hate it when they mess with the ships I like. They could have rebalanced by adding new ships, affordable ones! People want more content not nit picking the bits we already have and messing up loadouts. No, I'm pretty sure people want existing content to be balanced. Just because you like flying your OP ship doesn't mean it's fun for others to fly against something that's OP. There is no amount of adding new ships that is going to make something currently OP not OP, and it certainly won't make something that sucks better by association (somehow, magically!) New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.
u mean power creep? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:15:00 -
[150] - Quote
Breselyer AnDu wrote:No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others That is a very self serving attitude |
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Sadew42
Seekers of Agartha
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:15:00 -
[151] - Quote
Suggestions:
Sansha: -Small shield HP bonus Reason: From my experience, the Phantasm is very easy to put a few Large Shield Extenders onto, I haven't tried anything with the Succubus or Nightmare, though. -Tracking disruption bonus Reason: Keeps it in line with actual Sansha NPC ships. Would probably be hard to fit though, and so not very important.
Blood Raiders: -Web effectiveness and web range, 50/50 Reason: Energy neutralizers have a rather short range. A bonus to web range won't really matter for these ships. Neuts prefer a ship that can get in range fast and then hold the prey down. Long range webs fit with Minmatar ships, but not very well with short range energy neutralizers. If you insist on longer web range, though, a range bonus to neut/nos modules would also be needed. -Cruor *possibly* needs an extra mid slot Reason: The Cruor needs a propulsion module, a web and a warp scram/disruptor, and a cap booster. However, with the changes to Nos always working, this is probably no longer an issue, time will see.
Guristas: -Small drone speed bonus could be beneficial Reason: Tough, high damage drones are nice, but for the worm at least they need to be quick and fast in order to keep up with the pace of small-ship battles. Drone navigation computers compete with the 2 to 3 free mid slots (scram/web) already which would most likely get used for tank. I don't fly drone ships much, though, and so this probably isn't a big deal.
Other Thoughts: Are there any plans to make a Caldari and Minmatar ship line like the Sisters of EVE? It feels kind of bogus that there's the SoE ship for Gallente and Amarr pilots now, bringing it to 3 Amarr hybrids and 4 Gallente hybrids, and although there are 3 Minmatar hybrids, there are only 2 Caldari hybrids. I'll leave the line's theme up to you guys, though I think a copy of the SoE line for Caldari and Minmatar pilots would be nice. I hope there's something like that in the future. |
LT Alter
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
99
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:16:00 -
[152] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.
You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken.
I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing. |
bubble trout
Sky Fighters
191
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:16:00 -
[153] - Quote
Pretty cool changes. I have only one question at this time, are the resists staying the same? |
Anya Klibor
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
652
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:17:00 -
[154] - Quote
If I'm reading this right, you're saying that you'd be locking the Guristas ships into damage types (thermal and kinetic) for maximum effectiveness, essentially relegating them to a semi-Caldari feel with regards to their new primary weapons system (missiles). On top of that (once again, going by your claim), you'd be allowing them to field only two drones at once, with a bonus to the power of the drones (so the Rattlesnake would get to field two Ogres with a 300% increase to damage and hit points).
No.
Missile ships see little use outside of PvE. You might see solo or small gangs, but there's little to no fleet doctrine with them. It doesn't matter if you get a pure missile damage bonus, it won't change this fact. Guristas are drone boats with a secondary in missiles. They have been. I take the Worm out all the time for fun, and I'll tell you it is always amusing. What you are proposing is a substantial nerf to a faction that already sees limited PvP. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
294
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
Breselyer AnDu wrote: New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.
Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening. |
Meandering Milieu
FML LLC
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:18:00 -
[156] - Quote
Also, echoing what one or two others have said, I kind of wanted to see Guristas Jam |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
205
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:18:00 -
[157] - Quote
Changes look nice, but I would change the
Quote:SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Switch the Amarr and Caldari bonus, it makes no sense for Caldari Frigates to give bonus to an Amarr weapon system. In the previous version of the succubus it was the lesser of two evils, but now it makes more sense lore wise to switch them around I think. Baddest poster ever |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
294
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:22:00 -
[158] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Michael Harari wrote: In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.
You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken. I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing.
Or you can just park a dread or two, some 90% webs, and a bunch of Lokis or Rapiers on a gate and pop everything that comes through as frigates are ballooned up to over 1000 sig radius.
Plus none of this is really quality over quantity because if I can drop a big enough fleet, of anything, to melt your dreads they're going to die, probably shortly after the support fleet. It's not a tactic for smaller groups to take on significantly larger ones, it's a cheesy way to basically score free kills on anyone who isn't mashing a Cyno to hot-drop you before they blow up. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:23:00 -
[159] - Quote
ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB? |
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:23:00 -
[160] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote: New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.
Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening.
The market would adjust to their relative benefits. The old ships would come down in price giving people a cheaper alternative at a spec cost, the new ships could be balanced along the lines suggested now so no creep unless this rebalance is creep?
Rowells wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote:No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others That is a very self serving attitude
How is suggesting everyone gets new better ships self serving? |
|
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1014
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:23:00 -
[161] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Sorry, I think the worm needs major revision. In the least, the bonuses should aid the worm as a drone support ship. Give a bonus to repping and ewar drones instead of just damage. Hell, this could even give gurista a special niche as the only race where ewar drones are good. 2 bonus webbing drones could actually slow a target and not face a stacking penalty that renders the 4th and 5th drones useless.
This is a great idea, but if you do this, keep the gigantic bonus to two drones, so that the stacking penalty is irrelevant. Two web drones with a 300% bonus, with one of them stacking penalized to ~89% effectiveness, would be something else. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
CompleteFailure
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
130
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:25:00 -
[162] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: 2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P) +1
Itago Gemulus wrote:2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones
It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300%
300% = 3.00
2*3.00 = 6
learn2maths |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:26:00 -
[163] - Quote
Rowells wrote:ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB?
im guessing at 2km/s ish.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
31
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:26:00 -
[164] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there. I would imagine you would do similar to the Rattlesnake and Gila as you did the Worm, a 300% damage and HP buff to 2 drones. The problem for the Gila is medium drones generally suck DPS wise and are in dire need of a balance pass which could/would put the Gila in an awkward spot if it is balanced for use with medium drones before medium drones are re-done. A similar situation for the Rattlesnake will come up as it is usually Sentries or bust with large drones.
I'd imagine they'd do 20 bandwidth for the Gila which than brings up the possibility of running an effective 16 small drones (4 small +300% bonus) vs a regular cruisers effective 7.5 small drones (5 + 25%). And the 16 smalls would always be better than 8 mediums, as they do more damage, would have better tracking, and have better speed to apply that damage quicker.
Expanding to the Rattlesnake, at 50 bandwidth we could be seeing a BS with 20 effective smalls or medium drones. That's pretty nuts from an anti-tackle or anti-support role, regardless of what its other bonii are.
Not saying that's what they'll end up doing, but I find the idea pretty damn hilarious and massively OP. But either way its an interesting idea to mix things up. I'd guess they'd do something like reduce to +200% for the Gila, and +100% for the Rattle, and tweak the bandwidth to keep things from getting out of hand.
As far as the others, at first I didn't really like the AB bonus on the Sansha, but the more I think about it, the more it fits. Neither race are known for great speed, but the lower cap use of the AB fits great with the higher use of Lasers and Shields, and a 100% bonus might be just enough to make it competitive. Will really require some testing/efting to be sure.
The Cruor bonus change is fantastic, should make it actually somewhat viable now. I'd probably like to see a 4th low rather than the 2 drones though, they seem like an unnecessary addition. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:27:00 -
[165] - Quote
Rowells wrote:ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB? It makes it to about 2300m/s Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Zamyslinski
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:27:00 -
[166] - Quote
Buff sancha capacitor and add a shield boost bonus like sleipnir's vaga's
like really those ships are shield tanked brawlers i think a tanking bonus would be totally in place.
|
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:27:00 -
[167] - Quote
Breselyer AnDu wrote:Rowells wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote:No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others That is a very self serving attitude How is suggesting everyone gets new better ships self serving? Maybe im reading it wrong, but saying fairness to others is less important than messing with something you like doesnt make me think otherwise.
But specifically which ship are you talking about, the worm perhaps? |
Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
92
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:28:00 -
[168] - Quote
While the worm looks fun, how exactly is this going to translate to the Gila and Rattlesnake? If you make the Gila use 2 medium drones then can't it just launch 4 smalls? And what about the Rattlesnake? If you give her enough bandwidth for just 2 heavys what's to stop it from launching 5 mediums?
I am intrigued by the Gurista changes, it'll be nice to have a missile and drone based pirate faction at last I'm just not sure how you can carry the same theme to the larger ships. What works for frigates doesn't necessarily work for battleships. I'd also share concerns with other people about the Rattler turning into the new drone assister, what with the 50 drone assist limit thats supposed to come in soon. Is there more information you're not telling us here because right now as I'm looking at the worm I feel like I'm only seeing 5% of the total picture.
One thing I do love about all this though is the changes to blood raider ships. This is going to make the Cruor and Ashimmu very deadly and bringing back the old NOS mechanic as a ship bonus is quite awesome and very unique. These ships are supposed to be named after demons and with these changes they will be feared as such.
What I am probably most disappointed by here is the Dramiel. It's such a disjointed little frigate these days with its damage spread out between guns, drones, and missiles. It also has a strange excess of power but relatively low cpu. I've never known what to do with a Dramiel besides copy the generic cookie-cutter dual prop setups. You kinda hit the nail on the head for me when you said this: Quote:the biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships I don't see how angel ships are any different from minmatar ships save for different ship models. I seriously do not get how the Dramiel is any different from the Wolf or Jaguar. You've taken steps to make the other ships distinct from the empire factions, Im just not sure how the Angels are supposed to be unique. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
294
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:29:00 -
[169] - Quote
Breselyer AnDu wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote: New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.
Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening. The market would adjust to their relative benefits. The old ships would come down in price giving people a cheaper alternative at a spec cost, the new ships could be balanced along the lines suggested now so no creep unless this rebalance is creep?
Unlikely, because people would stop farming and producing the lower-spec ships, so the price stays high because supply moved to match demand.
Plus, again, that's a lot of un-used game assets, and it's a lot harder to produce entirely new ships than to rebalance existing ones. Again, CCP committed to this almost 2 years ago and it's been well received by the player-base. Re-balancing is always a better solution than power-creep. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2070
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:29:00 -
[170] - Quote
Just going to add that the Daredevil is a wickedly good squishy solo boat that is completely vulnerable to faster ships, and neuting ships. The web bonus is not OP because it does no good when this ship is fighting outnumbered. In gangs, the DD will die and will ALWAYS lose the isk war if not the fight overall. Keep its web bonus where it's at. |
|
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:29:00 -
[171] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Rowells wrote:ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB? It makes it to about 2300m/s Thank you. I hope it works well on the phantasm too |
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:30:00 -
[172] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote:Rowells wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote:No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others That is a very self serving attitude How is suggesting everyone gets new better ships self serving? Maybe im reading it wrong, but saying fairness to others is less important than messing with something you like doesnt make me think otherwise. But specifically which ship are you talking about, the worm perhaps?
You are reading it wrong. I am quite clearly suggesting fairness through alternate means or I wouldn't have said anything about new ships with equal abilities. Nope I don't have a worm. I do have a Dramiel. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1095
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:31:00 -
[173] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Michael Harari wrote: In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.
You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken. I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing.
A ship at 0 velocity gets hit for full dps by any guns not mounted on a titan.
Also, didnt you lose a bait tengu to me because you didnt know you cant light cynos in deadspace? And then had to burn a bunch of canes and falcons to save the archon you warped in? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:31:00 -
[174] - Quote
Breselyer AnDu wrote:[You are reading it wrong. I am quite clearly suggesting fairness through alternate means or I wouldn't have said anything about new ships with equal abilities. Nope I don't have a worm. I do have a Dramiel. OK. I geuss i got caught up in that one phrase i saw. My bad. |
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:31:00 -
[175] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Breselyer AnDu wrote: New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.
Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening. The market would adjust to their relative benefits. The old ships would come down in price giving people a cheaper alternative at a spec cost, the new ships could be balanced along the lines suggested now so no creep unless this rebalance is creep? Unlikely, because people would stop farming and producing the lower-spec ships, so the price stays high because supply moved to match demand. Plus, again, that's a lot of un-used game assets, and it's a lot harder to produce entirely new ships than to rebalance existing ones. Again, CCP committed to this almost 2 years ago and it's been well received by the player-base. Re-balancing is always a better solution than power-creep.
The new ships could use the same hulls, no asset issues.
|
LT Alter
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
99
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:32:00 -
[176] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Quote:For now, I intend to leave it at full strength it's just one disappointment after another with you guys. anyway, the issue with daredevils is that people abuse links and faction webs for ridiculous range control, for easymode kiting. you should fix this by swapping the hybrid damage bonus for a blaster damage bonus, pushing it toward being a fast honour brawler, which is what it's supposed to be (or you could, you know, fix links). it sure does have a large turret damage bonus. I wonder if that's justified, really not sure. Quote:Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage) I'm giving this one 0/10. first of all, I'm pretty sure the current succubus only has 3 highs, not 4, and second I can see all the FW scrubs armour tanking it already, like they do with breachers and hookbills, because webs and tracking disruptors >>>>>> an extra lowslot, and this is a larger issue I guess. anyway, my main issue is being locked into using an AB, which would be ok if you could fit beams and had a range bonus, but you don't, so you just get auto wrecked by kiting ships, because you're in a dumb inflexible brawler that can't do anything. drop the utility high for a midslot, maybe buff up the tracking bonus if you want it to actually be useful - tracking bonuses are pretty weak generally, and find something else for its amarr frigate bonus. solo-wise, there's also the issue that everyone knows what your fitting is, which alone is a pretty good reason for me to never fly it. Quote:Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness) please stop with the web bonuses, they're really horrible and easily abused and broken by kiting scum with links. also, 3 lows and no armour bonus on a pirate armour frigate? this is a joke, it needs 4 or 5 or something. I'd be more looking at 2 midslot no-web bonus stuff. it also looks like it's still ridiculously slow. I think some thought should go into all of the mobility stats on these ships, because they're pretty inconsistent. some of these things currently are as slow as AFs (which also need to be rebalanced), with nothing to show for it. I really like this one, except the speed. I would like to have 5 mids though. many shield frigates suffer from this - with the strength of webs (nerf webs pls), you really really cannot afford to not have a web, so you're stuck with a 1 slot tank, which sucks. I hope on the gila, you can bring it down to 20 bandwidth with a massive damage and possibly drone speed bonus, because this heavies on cruisers thing is an absolute joke, and sentries, while OP, are not ideal a lot of the time.
It seems as if your logic is only applying to what you want to do and what you like to fly, rather short sighted of you I must say. I agree with the daredevil at the least, the 90% webs on a frigate give it too much ability to dictate range in that environment it is highly over powered and a flat blaster bonus would do much to improve this fact. However 90% webs on all serp ships should remain. All of your other negativity I find rather astounding, as for once I think CCP finally did a good job balancing, rather than going all out "lets make everything the same", they're shaking things up a bit and I like it.
|
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
436
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:32:00 -
[177] - Quote
Seconding the "50% AB speed was tested on AFs and dumpstered for being too much" worries in light of what is now a 100% bonus on the Sansha hull. I think going with a reduction in sig bloom and cap use to MWDs would be less likely to create problems.
Good take on the Blood Raiders vs Serpentis web bonuses issue, too. Separating them between range and strength feels a lot more consistent.
I tend to agree with people who say that the 90% webs are too strong, but given the relative frailty of a Daredevil, I think this one is fine. When you get to cruisers and battleships, I hope you will reconsider your position.
The Worm's drones are a cool idea, I guess, but lore-wise it feels a little out of place. Yes Guristas ships were made into drone platforms to bastardize State ships with Gallente concepts, but the less-drones-with-mega-bonuses is a Sansha thing on the Revenant.
Seconding the idea that these reworks sort of make the Dramiel look bland in comparison. Over time its roles have been taken over by many other ships as everything else has been buffed while it stays the same. Please don't make it the latest Rifter! No sig. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2800
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:33:00 -
[178] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Worm:
I enjoy the new bonuses drone direction, but I'm afraid of what the Gila will look like based on that.
No matter what bandwidth you give the Gila I'll fill it full of Warrior 2's and a few drone nav computers and have 300% bonused, very fast Warrior 2's murdering frigates.
Current game mechanics with bandwidth won't let you expand out this design to the Gila or Rattlesnake without creating a balance issue at those levels. Why not? Oh god. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2070
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:34:00 -
[179] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these" Carrier assist fleets will be replaced with Worm assist fleets! |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:37:00 -
[180] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Weaselior wrote:Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these" Carrier assist fleets will be replaced with Worm assist fleets!
gila and rattlesnake though. it's going to happen, isn't it. **** this game. |
|
Cable Udan
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
281
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:40:00 -
[181] - Quote
I like these changes. http://chasingtheblueflash.blogspot.com/ My Pirate Blog |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:40:00 -
[182] - Quote
also on succubus are you changing its shield recharge rate?? it has the worst recharge rate of all the frigs
910 vs 625 secs Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:40:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: [...] and then to give all three "old NOS", that is, Energy Vampires would continue to leech from your target until their cap reaches zero, regardless of your own cap level. [...]
Interesting, did you plan to release a module or a rig with similar function? maybe with heavy drawback on energy modules so that specialized energy warfare ships can't overshadow bloods ones.
CCP Rise wrote: Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships.
They got overshadowed mostly because of the new bonus, Guristas are shield and Gallente armor, they are both worthy of a complementary existence as much as armor/hybrid and shield/hybrid is. Said that, missiles as complementary feature need a reiteration, due to Gallente renewal Guristas are now left behind with "outdated" (inteded as no longer top notch drone ship) drones bonus and somewhat marginal weapon bonus.
CCP Rise wrote: Angel: And last we have the most popular pirate faction, which is doing pretty well at all three sizes. The biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships and a light case of OP. The Dramiel isn't getting any big changes and the other two Angel ships probably won't see any huge change in style or function either, but wait for later threads to discuss their specifics please.
Not that i don't like they current form but you said yourselves, at this point they could strive for something different than "Minmatar+1". After all if Guristas can't be the "Shield Gallente" why should Angel been allowed to be "Bigger Minmatar"?
CCP Rise wrote: As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
Not completely convinced by the proposed iteration. Racial bonus looks ok, however i don't like the kin/therm limit. The role bonus as "less drones but more powerful" doesn't appeal me. Reducing bandwidth might be beneficial server side but means less option for the user considering you can launch only 2 light drones while not having bonuses on non light scout drones (i take "light combat drone" in the OP as the Drones -+ Combat Drones -+ Light Scout Drones group). It also looks like a concept that can't scale well for cruiser and battleship size. At this point i would left the old drone and focus on the missiles part. Maybe on rapid launchers since the new version they are laking a dedicated ships, Guristas could have reduced fitting requirement on worm and reduced reload time on Gila and Rattlesnake.
I like the rest, saved for the web range bonus (turn it down a bit?), good work. :)
|
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2800
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:40:00 -
[184] - Quote
Anya Klibor wrote:(so the Rattlesnake would get to field two Ogres with a 300% increase to damage and hit points).
No. I'm guessing the Rattlesnake is only going to get 25m Bandwidth anyway. Oh god. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:41:00 -
[185] - Quote
CompleteFailure wrote:elitatwo wrote: 2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P) +1
Itago Gemulus wrote:2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300% 300% = 3.00 2*3.00 = 6 learn2maths
By that logic 100% role bonus on Marauders is 4*1 = 4 effective turrets (300%=3.00 -> 100% =1.00)
If you add 300% you get a bonus of 300% not a total of 300% |
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
108
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:41:00 -
[186] - Quote
I think your changes to the Cruor make it a little bit more useless than it is now. It does not receive a neut/nos range bonus, nor does it get any kind of optimal range bonus for its turrets, yet it now gets a web range bonus. It's bonuses don't have synergy with one another anymore -- its neuts/nos don't get past 7km and it's guns won't have terribly great optimal, either. I understand the move to web range bonuses to keep it similar throughout the entire Blood Raider line, but either change the Cruor's bonuses to neut/nos range and laser optimal, or change the web bonus back to strength for the Cruor. I think the Cruor is neglected not for its bonuses (which work really well together, I think), but for other reasons, like lackluster dps, maybe. |
LT Alter
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
99
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:44:00 -
[187] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:LT Alter wrote:Michael Harari wrote: In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.
You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken. I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing. A ship at 0 velocity gets hit for full dps by any guns not mounted on a titan. Also, didnt you lose a bait tengu to me because you didnt know you cant light cynos in deadspace? And then had to burn a bunch of canes and falcons to save the archon you warped in?
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage
As long as turret resolution is larger than the target resolution there will always be a chance to miss. Also no ship is truly at zero velocity, eve under dual 90% webs you're still moving and then it has an immensely larger effect on the turret resolution, XL guns simply wont hit any frigate that's moving, even at a slow pace
And yes, being mainly a pvper that operates outside of such sites I was not aware of that at the time. Also nothing else warped in to save the archon, large ecm drones alone got me out. Though that is hardly relevant to this conversation |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2070
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:45:00 -
[188] - Quote
Jon Joringer wrote:I think your changes to the Cruor make it a little bit more useless than it is now. It does not receive a neut/nos range bonus, nor does it get any kind of optimal range bonus for its turrets, yet it now gets a web range bonus. It's bonuses don't have synergy with one another anymore -- its neuts/nos don't get past 7km and it's guns won't have terribly great optimal, either. I understand the move to web range bonuses to keep it similar throughout the entire Blood Raider line, but either change the Cruor's bonuses to neut/nos range and laser optimal, or change the web bonus back to strength for the Cruor. I think the Cruor is neglected not for its bonuses (which work really well together, I think), but for other reasons, like lackluster dps, maybe. This ship will absolutely control range ---> Win fights. It will be moderately fast with massive effective sig radius reduction (does not have to turn on mwd) |
Jureth22
Vanguard Frontiers Black Legion.
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:46:00 -
[189] - Quote
all seems to be ok,except for worm.i would let the worm have at least 5 drones/5 drones bay,and modify the bonus only.2 drones with 300% bonus to damage is just,wrong |
Anya Klibor
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
652
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:47:00 -
[190] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Anya Klibor wrote:(so the Rattlesnake would get to field two Ogres with a 300% increase to damage and hit points).
No. I'm guessing the Rattlesnake is only going to get 25m Bandwidth anyway.
They said they want them to be able to launch two drones. That means that either the Rattlesnake can launch two light drones (not likely, because seriously that would be ******), or two heavies/sentries. Since I'm thinking the wording implies that the bonus will be to drones of equivalent size, that means sentries and heavies will get the bonus from the Rattlesnake's role, meaning that it will be an anti-battleship platform.
Though now that I think about it, it could be freaking hilarious to have a drone doctrine around the Rattlesnake. With only 50 drones being the maximum you can have assisting you, if it's all Rattlesnakes that means that you have the equivalent of 150 drones. |
|
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:47:00 -
[191] - Quote
It would be nice to see the DD lose a bit of its speed but thus far most of the changes look nice |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1097
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:50:00 -
[192] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Michael Harari wrote:LT Alter wrote:Michael Harari wrote: In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.
You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken. I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing. A ship at 0 velocity gets hit for full dps by any guns not mounted on a titan. Also, didnt you lose a bait tengu to me because you didnt know you cant light cynos in deadspace? And then had to burn a bunch of canes and falcons to save the archon you warped in? http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_DamageAs long as turret resolution is larger than the target resolution there will always be a chance to miss. Also no ship is truly at zero velocity, eve under dual 90% webs you're still moving and then it has an immensely larger effect on the turret resolution, XL guns simply wont hit any frigate that's moving, even at a slow pace And yes, being mainly a pvper that operates outside of such sites I was not aware of that at the time. Also nothing else warped in to save the archon, large ecm drones alone got me out. Though that is hardly relevant to this conversation http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/File:TurretHitChance1.png
Your understanding of the tracking formula is wrong. Signature only operates as a multiplier to tracking speed.
Also, your ecm drones never jammed us, we had an alt 2j away that saw the tundragon canes and falcons flying by.
http://pbrd.co/1gzAKXS
Thats 90% webs, no painters, no links on malediction |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
208
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:51:00 -
[193] - Quote
"SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed"
Am I the only one who thinks the bonuses are backwards? Why should Caldari frigate give you a Energy Turret bonus??? Other than that I love the new Succubus, and I say that as a someone who bought 20+ of them last month;-) Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1111
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:53:00 -
[194] - Quote
CompleteFailure wrote:elitatwo wrote: 2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P) +1
Itago Gemulus wrote:2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300% 300% = 3.00 2*3.00 = 6 learn2maths
wait...so u think the current sansha and blood laser bonus is written down in the ship traits for what reason? and ur inferrence of the word 'bonus' means what? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
513
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:54:00 -
[195] - Quote
I'm liking these changes, although the cruor feels a little strange with the disparity between web and nos range; I'm not entirely sure it's a bad thing, and gives the ship two different roles.
Worm is pretty much an assfrig, likewise the Succubus, but with only one half of the defining assfrig features: (Extra tankiness, or lowered-sig maneuverability.)
Daredevil and Dramiel are still nasty.
Weaselior wrote:Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these"
The idea of a Sentry Rattlesnake doctrine with the 300% role bonus and the inherent tankiness they have is terrifying - they will end up as pocket carriers. (I'd expect still very vulnerable to alpha doctrines however; but this is speculation on something that isn't even released yet.) |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1097
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:57:00 -
[196] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:I
The idea of a Sentry Rattlesnake doctrine with the 300% role bonus and the inherent tankiness they have is terrifying - they will end up as pocket carriers. (I'd expect still very vulnerable to alpha doctrines however; but this is speculation on something that isn't even released yet.)
NC. ran these in providence, they got dunked pretty hard iirc. |
Nbonga
V I R I I Ineluctable.
29
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:57:00 -
[197] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Angel: And last we have the most popular pirate faction, which is doing pretty well at all three sizes. The biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships and a light case of OP. The Dramiel isn't getting any big changes and the other two Angel ships probably won't see any huge change in style or function either, but wait for later threads to discuss their specifics please.
For the frigs we are in a situation where there are two performing well (Dramiel and Daredevil) and 3 that are virtually unused. That means the buffs for those 3 (Succubus, Cruor, Worm) come in the form of pretty heavy attribute gains as well as re-design in terms of bonuses. In general this class is getting some updates to bring them into the post-tiericide world so things like base speed and lock range will get tweaks across the board.
Majority of changes are pretty good but I think Dramiel needs some changes. Even if it's used right now doesn't really mean that it's completely fine. After the changes it won't be fine compared to others. Give it some CPU at least.
|
CompleteFailure
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
130
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:58:00 -
[198] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:CompleteFailure wrote:elitatwo wrote: 2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P) +1
Itago Gemulus wrote:2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300% 300% = 3.00 2*3.00 = 6 learn2maths By that logic 100% role bonus on Marauders is 4*1 = 4 effective turrets (300%=3.00 -> 100% =1.00) If you add 300% you get a bonus of 300% not a total of 300%
***dammit. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:58:00 -
[199] - Quote
i would think the rattlesnake would be bonused for heavy drones not sentries Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
237
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:58:00 -
[200] - Quote
Thoughts on adding an according bonus to EW/Repair drones on the guristas ships?
Giving people the option to sacrifice the damage drones in their meager drone bay for added utility from the other drones without being completely let down by the bandwith restriction makes for interesting fitting choices.
Also I must ask how you intend to deal with the Gila and Rattlesnake if you are going to give them a 300% bonus and 50m3 bandwith to launch two large size drones, since 5 mediums/lights bonused like that would be incredibly powerful against smaller targets as well as targets in the same size class. |
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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1097
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:59:00 -
[201] - Quote
Destoya wrote:Thoughts on adding an according bonus to EW/Repair drones on the guristas ships?
Giving people the option to sacrifice the damage drones in their meager drone bay for added utility from the other drones without being completely let down by the bandwith restriction makes for interesting fitting choices.
Also I must ask how you intend to deal with the Gila and Rattlesnake if you are going to give them a 300% bonus and 50m3 bandwith to launch two large size drones, since 5 mediums/lights bonused like that would be incredibly powerful against smaller targets as well as targets in the same size class.
They could limit the number of drones controlled. Its an awkward fix though |
carlmar wix
Shadow Assault Squad
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 16:59:00 -
[202] - Quote
Worm just became my new favoriteship! two drones but they do a bunch more damage sounds very fun! OS: Windows 8.1 Pro, 64bit. CPU: Intel i7-3740QM 2.7Ghz Quad Core (3.7Ghz Turbo boost) GPU: Nvidia Geforce GTX 660M, 2Gb. RAM: 24Gb, 1600Mhz. |
SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
31
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:00:00 -
[203] - Quote
Rowells wrote:ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB?
Should be 337.5% (a max skilled pilot gets a 168.75% bonus from a T2) and a 506.26% with the module on overheat, so long as you are fitting the same size AB.
If you are fitting a 10MN T2 you would get a 848% bonus (424% bonus off a max skill), and an utterly absurd 1272% bonus with heat. Considering that is just based of the current ship stats, and doesn't include any bonuses from nano-fibers or the like, I could easily see 3.3km/s (5.4 w / heat) beam succubi after the expansion.
And if you don't think that's the tightest **** ever than get out of my face. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1111
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:01:00 -
[204] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i would think the rattlesnake would be bonused for heavy drones not sentries
i hope its both. if not. poop EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
294
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:01:00 -
[205] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:LT Alter wrote:http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage
As long as turret resolution is larger than the target resolution there will always be a chance to miss. Also no ship is truly at zero velocity, eve under dual 90% webs you're still moving and then it has an immensely larger effect on the turret resolution, XL guns simply wont hit any frigate that's moving, even at a slow pace
And yes, being mainly a pvper that operates outside of such sites I was not aware of that at the time. Also nothing else warped in to save the archon, large ecm drones alone got me out. Though that is hardly relevant to this conversation http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/File:TurretHitChance1.pngYour understanding of the tracking formula is wrong. Signature only operates as a multiplier to tracking speed. Also, your ecm drones never jammed us, we had an alt 2j away that saw the tundragon canes and falcons flying by. http://pbrd.co/1gzAKXSThats 90% webs, no painters, no links on malediction
There's reduced damage for the over-sized guns but Bonused Target Painters can bring the sig-resolution of a Frigate well into the realm where a Dread will wipe it off the field easily, sometimes with only one gun depending on the tank of the Frigate, and only the most hilariously over-tanked T1 or T2 Cruiser can survive a Moros's alpha with webs and TPs on it. Anything larger and you start needing a second Dread for a clean kill but it's still very doable and anyone running without significant Logi presence is just going to keel over and die.
Go talk to the Wormhole people about what you can do with Dread-blapping, it's pretty hilarious in a sad kind of way. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
294
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:02:00 -
[206] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Destoya wrote:Thoughts on adding an according bonus to EW/Repair drones on the guristas ships?
Giving people the option to sacrifice the damage drones in their meager drone bay for added utility from the other drones without being completely let down by the bandwith restriction makes for interesting fitting choices.
Also I must ask how you intend to deal with the Gila and Rattlesnake if you are going to give them a 300% bonus and 50m3 bandwith to launch two large size drones, since 5 mediums/lights bonused like that would be incredibly powerful against smaller targets as well as targets in the same size class. They could limit the number of drones controlled. Its an awkward fix though
Or just limit the bonus to the intended size of drone as a trade-off for the size of the bonus. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1097
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:03:00 -
[207] - Quote
There is only reduced damage for supercapital guns shooting at smaller signatures. There is no effect on dread guns. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:04:00 -
[208] - Quote
I like the drone concept. Consider implementing it with all ships.
Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1015
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:05:00 -
[209] - Quote
Destoya wrote:Also I must ask how you intend to deal with the Gila and Rattlesnake if you are going to give them a 300% bonus and 50m3 bandwith to launch two large size drones, since 5 mediums/lights bonused like that would be incredibly powerful against smaller targets as well as targets in the same size class.
Gila: 300% bonus to medium drone damage.
Rattlesnake: 300% bonus to heavy drone damage.
Leave the bonus off sentries, and RattleCat (SlowSnake?) fleets are not so much of an issue. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:05:00 -
[210] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:I like the drone concept. Consider implementing it with all ships.
it makes drone ships less expensive, but it also diminishes the supposed advantages of drones, it's stupid. |
|
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1111
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:07:00 -
[211] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote: Leave the bonus off sentries, and RattleCat (SlowSnake?) fleets are not so much of an issue.
ppl who run missions with rattler like myself will cry oceans of tears, and then blow the dust off their domi's.
theres a thought...do uber drones get uber shield recharge again? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Vestus Regula
Moratorium Inc.
8
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:11:00 -
[212] - Quote
Not sure I like the Sansha changes. First, I'm under the impression current Ship damage bonuses are multiplicative (the flat 100% and the 5% / level), thus reducing overall damage. Second, because the afterburner bonus, as a few people pointed out earlier, make them a sort of laser-based (and thus less versatile) Angel, with huge signatures to boot. You could explore other options, such as:
Giving them 4% shield resist/level or shield amount/level (maybe shuffling a mid slot or two to lows, to avoid uber tanks and open room for more damage /tracking mods).
Making them armor based tanks and giving another Caldarish bonus such as (and don't hate me for it), ecm - thus creating laser and armor based, more durable ECM ships.
Giving them bonus cloaked speed / reduced cloak delay (techy, but not conflicting with SoE, since they use covert cloaks and sansha ships wouldn't).
Giving them some other unique bonus, such as %cap / level, reduced mwd sig or something like it.
As for the Guristas changes, I've also got mixed feelings. Yes, they get a bit more potential damage, but specific damage bonuses suck and the reduced bandwidth would actually reduce the survivability of the Worm and the Gila (assuming the later also gets a similar change), since they wouldn't be able to field 5 ecm drones anymore in order to escape from a tight spot (which, let's face it, it's their biggest asset, since caldari hull in general are amongst the slowest for every ship category).
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:11:00 -
[213] - Quote
Honestly, I am disappointed. I know that from the Dev perspective its all about pure PvP and no brain sweat is spent on actually paying attention to the game part of the game... but seriously, think about it once in a while.
Each pirate faction is pulling design specs from an empire faction, and then adding something extra, or should be.
So why not do this with Sansha: 25% bonus to Energy Turret damage/ Amarr level 5% literally anything caldari themed / Caldari level
Role Bonus: 100% Afterburner Velocity Bonus 37.5 % small energy tracking bonus
Guristas is even more puzzling. Why not: 60% bonus to light drone damage and hitpoints /Gallente level 4% sheild resist / Caldari level
Role bonus: 50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
The others are not too bad, with Angels you get a weird Gallente bonus to tracking on projectiles but at least many Gallente ships do feature a tracking bonus on their turrets. Using that same logic you could put an optimal bonus on Sansha lasers under the Caldari skill, making that ship a really nasty ranged monster. |
Melek D'Ivri
Propst Mining Services
34
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:12:00 -
[214] - Quote
Why not something like: This
Where you could make faction named bastion modules or simply use the current module for battleships to add function to them. Really dislike your Gurista changes althought the Kinetic-Thermal missile bonus idea would be really nice! Sanshas and Bloods look great, good thinking there. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
469
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:15:00 -
[215] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these" +1.
limit drone assist to 50 / bunny
revamp a whole ship line so it now has a setup using 2 drones bringing the DPS of 5 (or more?)
iseewhatyoudidthere |
Zomgnomnom
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
24
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:15:00 -
[216] - Quote
Quote:
There's reduced damage for the over-sized guns but Bonused Target Painters can bring the sig-resolution of a Frigate well into the realm where a Dread will wipe it off the field easily, sometimes with only one gun depending on the tank of the Frigate, and only the most hilariously over-tanked T1 or T2 Cruiser can survive a Moros's alpha with webs and TPs on it.
This just in, a solo frigate or cruiser vs a gang of ships loses....
Honestly, if you have 4 people webbing and painting you it doesn't matter what hits you. Your odds of survival are slim regardless at that point. The fact that it requires several people to pin you to the point the Dread can hit you IS the balancing factor.
|
sten mattson
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:16:00 -
[217] - Quote
the AB speed bonus was deemed to OP for the assault frigates , what makes the dev team think that double that bonus for the succubus is gonna make it balanced?
granted, the succubus doesnt have the tank of an AF , but now it has the same firepower as the slicer with a tracking bonus. However, an AB on a succubus will just be a GTFO button since it reaches MWD speeds without even overheating.
looking forward to testing these on the test server, as i just recently trained all racial frigs to V last week :D IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:16:00 -
[218] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:I like the drone concept. Consider implementing it with all ships.
it makes drone ships less expensive, but it also diminishes the supposed advantages of drones, it's stupid.
That advantage wod be lagging the field till people crash?
Drone revamp has to happen, and it is. Main part is volume of drones itself.
I look forward to the changes Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1097
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:17:00 -
[219] - Quote
Zomgnomnom wrote:Quote:
There's reduced damage for the over-sized guns but Bonused Target Painters can bring the sig-resolution of a Frigate well into the realm where a Dread will wipe it off the field easily, sometimes with only one gun depending on the tank of the Frigate, and only the most hilariously over-tanked T1 or T2 Cruiser can survive a Moros's alpha with webs and TPs on it.
This just in, a solo frigate or cruiser vs a gang of ships loses.... Honestly, if you have 4 people webbing and painting you it doesn't matter what hits you. Your odds of survival are slim regardless at that point. The fact that it requires several people to pin you to the point the Dread can hit you IS the balancing factor.
It requires 1 person webbing you. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:17:00 -
[220] - Quote
sten mattson wrote:the AB speed bonus was deemed to OP for the assault frigates , what makes the dev team think that double that bonus for the succubus is gonna make it balanced?
granted, the succubus doesnt have the tank of an AF , but now it has the same firepower as the slicer with a tracking bonus. However, an AB on a succubus will just be a GTFO button since it reaches MWD speeds without even overheating.
looking forward to testing these on the test server, as i just recently trained all racial frigs to V last week :D
I'm guessing they think that 1 pirate ship won't kill all of eve... Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3825
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:18:00 -
[221] - Quote
I must say it is nice to read this thread, although surely with this much happiness I've done something wrong...
Anyway! A few points on some things I see coming up a lot:
The Succubus bonuses are on the wrong race skill - yes! I will flip that around immediately. We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never. Why not ewar drone bonus for Guristas? - ewar drones are kind of a mess currently and we don't want to explicitly commit ships to being bonused for them until we solve that. The Cruor range bonuses are out of whack - yes! The last iteration actually had the Cruor setup with an energy warfare range bonus. In the end we just found too many problems with that version and feel a lot better about this one, even though some times it may seem awkward. The vampire bonus is much more unique and pushes the ships towards a much different play style that should be a lot more interesting than some kind of hybrid ewar support ship that is overshadowed in any one purpose by a tech 2 ship. On top, this bonus set is very solid at all three ship sizes. I'll try to look for some other stuff to respond to but I can't remember other big ones right this second.
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Django Flagg
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:19:00 -
[222] - Quote
I like the changes in general, but what has always bugged me is, why do Gallente-Minmi still have two options when it comes to pirate ships?
With the introduction of the Sisters covering Gallente Amarr, we still don't have Minmatar-Caldari skill bonused pirate line. Is it possible with the rebalance that we could see Angels shifted to have their bonus being based off Minmatar-Caldari? (shifting serpentis from gallente goes against lore somewhat)
It seems unnecessary to introduce new pirate faction line to cover this combination given enough pirate factions exist. The Angels also already cover basic Caldari skill tendencies, such as favoring shield tanking, and preferring optimal range/falloff bonused ships. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:21:00 -
[223] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:I like the drone concept. Consider implementing it with all ships.
it makes drone ships less expensive, but it also diminishes the supposed advantages of drones, it's stupid. That advantage wod be lagging the field till people crash? Drone revamp has to happen, and it is. Main part is volume of drones itself. I look forward to the changes Is that fact or specultion? Sounds like speculation.
If any thing, drones need to have there numbers and availability on non-drone ships reduced/removed. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Lugalzagezi666
216
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:22:00 -
[224] - Quote
Giving a drone ship bonus only for 1 type of drones basically means killing its versatility (doesnt mean much for worm, but gila and rattler, thats another thing).
Web strenght bonus should really be lowered, at least on the bigger hulls.
Cruor is meh. In its engagement range web strenght bonus was much more powerful, if you are giving it web range bonus, also give it RANGE bonus for neut/nos.
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Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:22:00 -
[225] - Quote
There would be no need to continue the 300% drone bonus on the gila and rattlesnake. Serpentis and Angel ships also don't have a consistant bonus for their damage.
Daredevil 200% Vigilant 75% Vindicator 37.5%
Dramiel 100% Cynabal 25% ROF and 10% damage per level Machariel 25% ROF and 5% damage per level
The only consistant ones were sansha and blood and now sansha is leaving blood behind on that too it seems. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:25:00 -
[226] - Quote
Stop being crybabies, all changed look good. Especially the worm.
CCP Rise wrote: We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never. Glad to hear that, and thanks for a very nice re-balance thread...can you confirm at this point whether the faction will be one of the known candidates? (Thukker, Mordus Legion) C:
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seth Hendar
I love you miners
469
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:28:00 -
[227] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Where it comes to the serpentis faction I believe the bonus should stay and I'm happy to hear that it is. The reason being while it may be considered an OP bonus at times, it is one of the few bonuses that doesn't really scale well into larger fleets. The vindicator and the vigilant are one of those few parts of eve gameplay that remain best used in medium sized engagement and help the smaller gangs fight the big gangs.
If you don't get what I mean by that, the fact is at the large combat scale these faction bs just aren't as popular because of their restricted range for dmg application and on the low range of the webs, making it largely ineffective for use in the larger gangs, while in smaller gangs that remain very compact and efficient they become key role ships that help them immensely. +200% exactly this
i would expect CCP to actually rebalance pirate ships around this, powerfull bonuses that doesn't scale well, so it's usefull in small gank but disregarded by bigger entitys.
imao, serp and angels are mostly fine (except Dram wich was overnerfed last time imao)
the rattle/gila/worm is the exact opposite of that, designed to go around the 50 drone assist limit, this will favor big blobs, not so much the small gangs => you failed big time on this one
blood/sansha => not enought experience with those so pretty hard to see how they will scale here |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3825
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:31:00 -
[228] - Quote
Ashley Animus wrote:There would be no need to continue the 300% drone bonus on the gila and rattlesnake. Serpentis and Angel ships also don't have a consistant bonus for their damage.
Daredevil 200% Vigilant 75% Vindicator 37.5%
Dramiel 100% Cynabal 25% ROF and 10% damage per level Machariel 25% ROF and 5% damage per level
The only consistant ones were sansha and blood and now sansha is leaving blood behind on that too it seems.
^^
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2027
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:34:00 -
[229] - Quote
Ok after a bit of thinking, my thoughts
The succubus has really dumb bonuses. 7.5% lets it have blaster tracking with glatlings.. so thats not great.
The AB bonus lets it.. scram kite i guess? But it doesn't have a range bonus so that won't really work that well. Tracking bonuses are really really weak and should be higher than 7.5% on a frigate to be useful. All in all i think its pretty bad.
Cruor.. What is the point of this thing? like honestly? Are you just going to hope you can nos your enemies to death before they kill you and your miserable tank/dps? The only think you could really do with this is be a **** with links, and even then it wouldn't be great.
Dramiel.. don't care? Never really liked the dramiel.
DD.. The web strength makes it an absolute monster with links + rails. Should be rebalanced to be less lopsided that way imo.
Worm... Well the worm looks like a down right beast. +1 for that one. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:34:00 -
[230] - Quote
It goes without saying that it will be totally absurd to roll out the 2 drone policy the worm gets into the gila/RS.
We'll get 3 drones @200%. |
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Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:35:00 -
[231] - Quote
Amount of drones in space was discussed by the server gods a few weeks ago.
Seems Rise is happy so far. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1097
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:35:00 -
[232] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:It goes without saying that it will be totally absurd to roll out the 2 drone policy the worm gets into the gila/RS.
We'll get 3 drones.
Probably 3-4 and 5 drones, with reduced damage bonus.
|
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3175
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:36:00 -
[233] - Quote
Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens. |
|
Omega Amatin
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:36:00 -
[234] - Quote
So is the point of this change to make pirate faction ships more specialized? Isnt the point of them in the first to be versitile?
Guristas potential changes are not looking good to me, and the overshadowed comment I just dont understand why. The Rattlesnake and Gila are the only shield tanked ships that have 125mbps... so please explain how the Domi/Ish and the Rattle/Gila are the same.
In summary I don't want to lose the durability that having 125mbps on Guristas ships or drone capacity which will effect flexability. I really hope that these changes happen to frigates at first and then you see if it really makes the changes you want. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:36:00 -
[235] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ashley Animus wrote:There would be no need to continue the 300% drone bonus on the gila and rattlesnake. Serpentis and Angel ships also don't have a consistant bonus for their damage.
Daredevil 200% Vigilant 75% Vindicator 37.5%
Dramiel 100% Cynabal 25% ROF and 10% damage per level Machariel 25% ROF and 5% damage per level
The only consistant ones were sansha and blood and now sansha is leaving blood behind on that too it seems. ^^ Other weapon systems though don't have a linear progression. A heavy drone is half as fast as a medium drone and does two times the damage. A medium drone is half as fast as a light drone and does slightly less than twice the damage. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Anya Klibor
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
652
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:38:00 -
[236] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
Hey guys,
We need more devs to come in here and act like they're being useful, because in a week's time this thread will be forgotten about when the negativity reaches a "boiling point" as it always has in these threads and we will be ignored once again.
Thanks for your cooperation. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:39:00 -
[237] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:I like the drone concept. Consider implementing it with all ships.
it makes drone ships less expensive, but it also diminishes the supposed advantages of drones, it's stupid. That advantage wod be lagging the field till people crash? Drone revamp has to happen, and it is. Main part is volume of drones itself. I look forward to the changes
you're talking about blobbing. I'm talking about pvp. |
doc627
Death's Knell
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:39:00 -
[238] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Giving a drone ship bonus only for 1 type of drones basically means killing its versatility (doesnt mean much for worm, but gila and rattler, thats another thing).
One of the rattlesnakes greatest strengths is the size of it 's drone bay and the ability to switch drone damage types on the fly in the more difficult missions. So cutting down the drone bay's size but increasing the drone DPS seems an odd choice considering the rattlesnake is used for missions mostly. Adjusting the missile bonus does warrant further discussion. =) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:40:00 -
[239] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
ok, I'll stop posting constructive criticism and switch to rants. |
SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
31
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:40:00 -
[240] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
You in 10 minutes... |
|
Layne Rockefeller
Galactic Zen
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:40:00 -
[241] - Quote
Just wanted to chime in with others in that the Worm looks like a hoot, but that similar changes to the Gila and Rattlesnake seem worrisome.
That said, I think the Gila needs a change more than the Rattlesnake: I'm just not sure what that change should be. The Gila would lose a great deal of flexibility if changes like those made to the Worm were made on the Gila, but the flexibility has kind of been a sign that the Gila doesn't have a kick-ass niche like other ships. The Cynabal steamrolls people in solo PvP with the right pilot and the Gila... is good for POS bashes?
In any case, I'm all for change, and I agree with the sentiment that the Guristas ships are really hard to figure out. Even the Rattlesnake with its great shield tank and DPS seems like it's missing something, but I guess I'm comfortable leaving that to smarter spaceship designers than myself. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:41:00 -
[242] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
ok.
WHY STILL 90% WEBS CCP RISE ARE YOU ******** OR STHPLZPLZ DO STH WITH THE DRAM NOONEWILL FLY IT AFTER THE CHANGESWTF ARE YOU DOING TO MY WORMWHY GIVEMISSILE DAMAGE TYPE BONUSES ARE YOU DENSE100% BONUS TO AB NONONO DAMN YOU MANWTFOPOPOPOPOP-WEB RANGE BONUS ANDNO BONUSRANGE TO NEUTNOS BLEUGH$#%2DRONES2 ******* DRONESONE DIES ONE REMAIN NERFEDNERF DUHNO NOSOLD MECHANICWTF OH ****.
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1535
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:42:00 -
[243] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:sten mattson wrote:the AB speed bonus was deemed to OP for the assault frigates , what makes the dev team think that double that bonus for the succubus is gonna make it balanced?
granted, the succubus doesnt have the tank of an AF , but now it has the same firepower as the slicer with a tracking bonus. However, an AB on a succubus will just be a GTFO button since it reaches MWD speeds without even overheating.
looking forward to testing these on the test server, as i just recently trained all racial frigs to V last week :D I'm guessing they think that 1 pirate ship won't kill all of eve...
They cut 14 PG from the ship. Fitting an oversized AB will be very ugly. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:43:00 -
[244] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I must say it is nice to read this thread, although surely with this much happiness I've done something wrong...
Anyway! A few points on some things I see coming up a lot:
The Succubus bonuses are on the wrong race skill - yes! I will flip that around immediately. We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never. Why not ewar drone bonus for Guristas? - ewar drones are kind of a mess currently and we don't want to explicitly commit ships to being bonused for them until we solve that. The Cruor range bonuses are out of whack - yes! The last iteration actually had the Cruor setup with an energy warfare range bonus. In the end we just found too many problems with that version and feel a lot better about this one, even though some times it may seem awkward. The vampire bonus is much more unique and pushes the ships towards a much different play style that should be a lot more interesting than some kind of hybrid ewar support ship that is overshadowed in any one purpose by a tech 2 ship. On top, this bonus set is very solid at all three ship sizes. I'll try to look for some other stuff to respond to but I can't remember other big ones right this second.
succubus - shield recharge rate is out of whack ... lasers use too much pg still/needs a nos on it . at least give its pg back dramiel - heeds a sharper focus .. its too minnie like armour tanking etc.. daredevil - 90% webs are OP either nerf webs or reduce bonus.. i prefer both .. should have dramiels drones cruor - lasers use more pg than nos/neuts ... more range would help too ..T2 neuts/nos aren't worth using over meta 4 Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:44:00 -
[245] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens. We could try and convince Dinsdale Pirannha that this is to directly buff [insert null block alliance here]. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:45:00 -
[246] - Quote
Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
can't say much about this, while i understand you want to give them something new, i dont see whats the use of an AB, well out of PvE situations, a bonus of optimal range could be good for it, its not like the nightmare is used with tachyons anyway.
the other could be a capacitor need for the lazors, but i dont think people would agree with that, think of it, the blood raiders are the slow, jamming pirates that use powerdrain and short range lasers to finish their enemies, the sansha are more oriented to be the long rangers that disable the enemies tracking and range so they cant shoot them from afar.
it makes more sense that the sansha's have a range bonus that adds to their good laser damage bonuses, that or a defensive bonus for them, the guristas already cover the resistance bonus, so they could have a shield boost bonus like the minmatar ships, another would be to increase their max velocity, so they can get better speeds both with an AB and a MW
Blood: This line is very similar in some ways to Sansha. We have a battleship in the Bhaalgorn with a unique and valuable niche and then a frigate and cruiser that almost no one uses. The main difference with Blood is that, when it comes to energy warfare, you get very different roles at different sizes even with the same bonus, so it can be difficult to find a way to tie all three together. What we are proposing at the moment is to change the web effectiveness bonus to web range for the Cruor and Ashimmu(which is a broadly useful bonus AND doesn't overlap with Serpentis AND matches the Bhaalgorn) and then to give all three "old NOS", that is, Energy Vampires would continue to leech from your target until their cap reaches zero, regardless of your own cap level. This would be role bonus functionality that stacks on top of the old bonus to energy turret damage as well as the NOS/Neut effectiveness bonus from Amarr. This should offer a lot of new and powerful options to Blood Raiders without having any negative impact on the Bhaalgorn's current role.
not much to discuss about blood raiders, i think the approach you're giving them is good, but i dont know how it pans out for PvE on this, i know they would be really cool for PvP of course
Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
pigeonholing gurista ships to a kin/thermal damage hole would make them even less used, its like the current problem some people have with the kinetic damage bonus of caldari hulls, if you want something unique for the guristas, well, there are other options that hasnt been covered yet, and that is to add one aditional drone per lvl, the only subcap that can do that right now is the guardian vexor, while i see that its a special edition ship, i think the guristas would get a nice feature there |
Jasen Harper
Hancock Development Corp
3
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:45:00 -
[247] - Quote
As a "perfect" Tachmare pilot, I would like to find out if I am going to be losing 25% of my turret damage.
I was never real good at math so how does this stack with 100% hull bonus and how might this (trading turret damage bonus with AB speed bonus) effect that? The Templis Dragonaurs are an ultra-nationalist Caldari terrorist organization whose origins date back to the Tikiona States. They are the most anti-Gallentean political entity in New Eden, and were secretly involved in the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6095
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:46:00 -
[248] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
Darnit, Rise, do a polishing pass on those assault frigates.
The Amarr assfrigs are terrible. :/ Priano Trans-Stellar is recruiting! Interested in nullsec combat? Research? Exploration? Contact Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3825
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:46:00 -
[249] - Quote
A couple more clarifications:
I said 'old nos' in the OP but that can be a bit confusing considering there has been a few different versions. The description provided by bobfrommarketing (I think thats who it was) is very accurate - "Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level". So, it will NOT continue to generate cap when your target is empty, it just doesn't have the same limitation has normal nos where you must have less cap than your target. It's been mentioned that the missile damage bonus on the Worm doesn't make sense as a Gallente bonus and should be on the role bonus. I agree that it would be ideal to have it that way in terms of flavor but giving a 60% per level bonus would mean that the ship was basically unusable until you had Gallente Frigate 5 and we really don't like that. And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places. I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this. In the post I quoted above I just meant to highlight that we are not limited to 300% for the other Guristas ships, but again, let's talk about those when we get to them.
|
|
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:47:00 -
[250] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ashley Animus wrote:There would be no need to continue the 300% drone bonus on the gila and rattlesnake. Serpentis and Angel ships also don't have a consistant bonus for their damage.
Daredevil 200% Vigilant 75% Vindicator 37.5%
Dramiel 100% Cynabal 25% ROF and 10% damage per level Machariel 25% ROF and 5% damage per level
The only consistant ones were sansha and blood and now sansha is leaving blood behind on that too it seems. ^^
I don't even care what that means, its just nice to see you happy :p |
|
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3828
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:48:00 -
[251] - Quote
Jasen Harper wrote:As a "perfect" Tachmare pilot, I would like to find out if I am going to be losing 25% of my turret damage.
I was never real good at math so how does this stack with 100% hull bonus and how might this (trading turret damage bonus with AB speed bonus) effect that?
You will have to wait for the Battleship thread to know for sure, and I'm not past internal review steps with those yet so I don't even know, but I can say that there is no chance of you losing 25% of your DPS. That would be ridiculous. |
|
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:48:00 -
[252] - Quote
Hope Alar wrote:Verlaine Glariant wrote:I've been a Sansha pilot for ages, way before the Incursion Sansha-themed expansion came out.
The Sansha technology, as the lore of the game says, relies on heavy laser weaponry and unnaturallyd resilient shield defenses. What we have here is, shield, propulsion and weaponry they all eat capacitor, and let me say one thing: Sanshas capacitor is not precisely out or the ordinary. There are HACs with way better cap management. What we really have in fact are ships that can not maintain that shield tank they should excel at because the cap is dry when the battle just started (assuming you're not being cap-drained or cap-neutted).
So, when talking about Sansha ships, the problem is the capacitor.
In this case scenario, the reasonable path to follow would be simply add a Turret Capacitor Need bonus and Shield Modules Capacitor need bonus, and also increasing both capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge rate.
However this would never give the Sansha ships any sign of uniqueness (besides their alien shape, that is). The Afterburner nearly-exclusive bonus seems very interesting and you're going in the good direction, but you're not quite there yet. In my opinion, Sanshas need some kind of special unique ability that no other faction or ships could ever have.
Something like (and this is just an example) a built-in short-range (50km?) MJD, or reducing in a 15% per skill level the CD on MJD's. Please not that I'm using MJD's as an example. This idea could apply to any other abilities for the Sanshas.
Add to this the ability to join Pirate factions in FW and voil+í! (and while you're at it, give us some FW exclusive skills/ships/modules).
Dreaming is free. AB Bonus is 100% unique...there is no need to overbuff Sansha.
Never flown a sansha, did you? Can't use AB long term cause it eats the cap u need for the lasers/shields. No second of cap to spend on AB in current config. So useless bonus without cap changes.
|
Twenty Five Percent
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:49:00 -
[253] - Quote
Hopefully these changes will shift everyone away from the ishtar for small/medium gangs
Unfortunately eve-kill seems to have gotten rid of their top 20 but I'm sure internally CCP can see the dominance of the ishtar currently and everyone is sick of these stupid drone doctrines except inventors. |
SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
32
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:49:00 -
[254] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this.
That right there makes my day. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:51:00 -
[255] - Quote
christ 5km/s succubus... i know its a sandbox but surely limiting prop mods to their class size is sensible here like you do with guns etc...
i mean think about the size of a cruiser AB on a frigate wouldn't it rip the thing apart or something Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
650
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:52:00 -
[256] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Jasen Harper wrote:As a "perfect" Tachmare pilot, I would like to find out if I am going to be losing 25% of my turret damage.
I was never real good at math so how does this stack with 100% hull bonus and how might this (trading turret damage bonus with AB speed bonus) effect that? You will have to wait for the Battleship thread to know for sure, and I'm not past internal review steps with those yet so I don't even know, but I can say that there is no chance of you losing 25% of your DPS. That would be ridiculous.
will the NM have its 20th slot? and at least 6 turrets? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1098
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:52:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this.
|
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
455
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:55:00 -
[258] - Quote
The Sansha need more work, why would anyone use a succubus when the Retribution is basically the same thing, but armor tanked?
How is the AB bonus that much inherently better than the MWD bonus?
They still have huge capacitor problems. They'll have even more trouble with the same nonsensical tracking bonus now that they're going super fast, and they still have pretty weak tanks. One of the previous nice flavors of the race was the double utility highs, but you inevitably had to fit them with nos/neuts to be effective. Both in keeping your guns firing, and in being able to kill anything.
You've given them a new bonus to speed, but no adjustments to their damage application, so now you're just going really fast and missing all the time.
There is a lot you CAN do with the ships, but this feels bland and unimaginative. In a game where a ship has 90% webs, the AB bonus feels weak.
Lasers are not the inherit bonus that they were designed to be, their range is decent but their damage is weak, and compared to rails there's no huge benefit to beams. Range isn't important enough of a factor in frigate warfare to warrant using beams when Scorch will do 90% of the work.
I don't see this making the Sansha line desirable. You'll still be caught by interceptors, or dramiels, you'll be out dps'ed and out tanked, so why bother?
Why not something inventive, like having their lasers do omni damage, like the sansha rats do. That's at least new and interesting gameplay. And almost as broken as the 90% webs that you acknowledge are likely broken, but still keep.
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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:56:00 -
[259] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:christ 5km/s succubus... i know its a sandbox but surely limiting prop mods to their class size is sensible here like you do with guns etc...
i mean think about the size of a cruiser AB on a frigate wouldn't it rip the thing apart or something
Don't worry, we've been doing it for years. The agility, fitting and tracking penalties make the fit fine.
|
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:57:00 -
[260] - Quote
CompleteFailure wrote:elitatwo wrote: 2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P) +1
Itago Gemulus wrote:2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300% 300% = 3.00 2*3.00 = 6 learn2maths
Your answer is the answer to "how much is 300% of 2 drones?". We are looking for "how much is 300% BONUS on 2 drones".
100% bonus (!) means you add the bonus to the 100% basics. If you salary receives 100% bonus, you will receive 10.000 Euro instead of base salary of 5.000 Euro. math is (5000 *100%) + (5000 *100%) = 10.000
300% Bonus (!) means (2 drones * 100%) + (2 drones * 300% bonus) = 2 drones * 400% = 8 drones |
|
Aaron eVega
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:59:00 -
[261] - Quote
You guys need to do something about the base lock ranges of all the cruisers; especially the vigilant and cynabal since I prefer to rail/arty fit those respectively. Right now the base is less than 50????
Also 400 rig calibration would be nice |
Anya Klibor
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
652
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:00:00 -
[262] - Quote
So, I Decided to do some early comparison (and I am using the Worm as the base template here for the Rattlesnake).
Assuming the following:
- Caldari Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Torpedo, Cruise Missile, and Heavy Missile Thermal/Kinetic damage/level - Role bonus: Heavy drones get +37.5% bonus to damage - Rattlesnake can field 2 heavy drones - No change in launcher numbers
For comparison reasons, I am assuming all level 5 skills, as well as only weapon systems being present, no damage modifiers or tank modifiers.
The Scorpion Navy Issue in it's current iteration surpasses it. The Rattlesnake will bring slightly more tank, and with an extra low slot can fit either a Drone Damage Amplifier or Ballistic Control Unit more than the Scorpion Navy Issue. However, even using Thermal or Kinetic torpedoes the Rattlesnake falls behind the Scorpion Navy Issue by ~150 DPS. The Scorpion Navy Issue can field 6 launchers, where-as the Rattlesnake can field 4. The SNI also has a RoF bonus, meaning that the damage bonus is applied evenly to all forms of damage.
In this case, the Scorpion Navy Issue wins out. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:00:00 -
[263] - Quote
as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.
|
Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:00:00 -
[264] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote:CompleteFailure wrote:elitatwo wrote: 2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P) +1
Itago Gemulus wrote:2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300% 300% = 3.00 2*3.00 = 6 learn2maths Your answer is the answer to "how much is 300% of 2 drones?". We are looking for "how much is 300% BONUS on 2 drones". 100% bonus (!) means you add the bonus to the 100% basics. If you salary receives 100% bonus, you will receive 10.000 Euro instead of base salary of 5.000 Euro. math is (5000 *100%) + (5000 *100%) = 10.000 300% Bonus (!) means (2 drones * 100%) + (2 drones * 300% bonus) = 2 drones * 400% = 8 drones
In Before "that's 400%!".
25% bonus doesn't mean a ship deal 75% of it's normal damage. |
Maennas Vaer
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
6
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:01:00 -
[265] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
Ok here goes.
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50.
I'm disappointed by this. As you state, 400 is nice for consistency (which I feel is important) but I feel it also discourages the use of T2 rigs on these ships which is a shame. I don't think giving them the extra 50 would make them overly powered in anyway but it would increase their flexibility.
Another good example of this is not being able to fit even 2(!) specific scanning rigs on an exploration frigate like the Astero as Memetic Algorithm Banks, Gravity Capacitor Upgrades and Small Emissions Scope Sharpener's all require 200 calibration.
I'll leave you with a quote from CCP Ytterbium from the Navy rebalance thread:
Quote: CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ah yes, this makes me remember to tell you guys something that should make you happy - we're going to increase calibration on all Navy Ships from 350 to 400. While it makes sense for Tech2 hulls to have less rig sots due to the specialized nature of the ships, Navy hulls are supposed to be an improvement over Tech1, but is not always the case right now due to rig / calibration restrictions.
Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2963444#post2963444 |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2070
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:03:00 -
[266] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.
Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do?
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1098
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:03:00 -
[267] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.
Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do?
The nos bonus is on blood raiders |
Mike Flynn
Meltdown.
14
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:06:00 -
[268] - Quote
mynnna wrote:To those curious (and old enough, to be fair), the plain english translation of the Cruor's bonus is "NOS fitted on this ship work like old pre-nerf NOS."
The wording in the description could read something such as...
Energy Vampires work regardless of targets capacitor status |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:06:00 -
[269] - Quote
Anya Klibor wrote:So, I Decided to do some early comparison (and I am using the Worm as the base template here for the Rattlesnake).
Assuming the following:
- Caldari Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Torpedo, Cruise Missile, and Heavy Missile Thermal/Kinetic damage/level - Role bonus: Heavy drones get +37.5% bonus to damage - Rattlesnake can field 2 heavy drones - No change in launcher numbers
For comparison reasons, I am assuming all level 5 skills, as well as only weapon systems being present, no damage modifiers or tank modifiers.
The Scorpion Navy Issue in it's current iteration surpasses it. The Rattlesnake will bring slightly more tank, and with an extra low slot can fit either a Drone Damage Amplifier or Ballistic Control Unit more than the Scorpion Navy Issue. However, even using Thermal or Kinetic torpedoes the Rattlesnake falls behind the Scorpion Navy Issue by ~150 DPS. The Scorpion Navy Issue can field 6 launchers, where-as the Rattlesnake can field 4. The SNI also has a RoF bonus, meaning that the damage bonus is applied evenly to all forms of damage.
In this case, the Scorpion Navy Issue wins out.
You cannot do a comparison for a ship that is not balanced yet. As said by Rise, the damage multi, drone type and drone bandwidth for Gila and RS can (and probably will) be different than what seen in the worm. |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3828
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:07:00 -
[270] - Quote
Since it's come up a few times, even though I'm not talking about cruisers in this thread, in current sketches the Vigilant would gain 14k lock range. Don't you worry. |
|
|
Capqu
Broski North
411
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:07:00 -
[271] - Quote
Is the 125% damage bonus coded the same as a 100% damage bonus and a 25% bonus? or is it worse? seems worse to me since the old bonus effectively gave dmg * 2 * 1.25 where as the new bonus gives dmg * 2.25
Succubus really doesn't need a damage nerf http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
679
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:07:00 -
[272] - Quote
Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit...
CCP Rise wrote: Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints
... which just seems icky.
I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics.
I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2801
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:08:00 -
[273] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Ok after a bit of thinking, my thoughts
The succubus has really dumb bonuses. 7.5% lets it have blaster tracking with glatlings.. so thats not great.
The AB bonus lets it.. scram kite i guess? But it doesn't have a range bonus so that won't really work that well. Tracking bonuses are really really weak and should be higher than 7.5% on a frigate to be useful. All in all i think its pretty bad. I'm thinking it might work better with beams.
Oh god. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:08:00 -
[274] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:A couple more clarifications:
I said 'old nos' in the OP but that can be a bit confusing considering there has been a few different versions. The description provided by bobfrommarketing (I think thats who it was) is very accurate - "Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level". So, it will NOT continue to generate cap when your target is empty, it just doesn't have the same limitation has normal nos where you must have less cap than your target. It's been mentioned that the missile damage bonus on the Worm doesn't make sense as a Gallente bonus and should be on the role bonus. I agree that it would be ideal to have it that way in terms of flavor but giving a 60% per level bonus would mean that the ship was basically unusable until you had Gallente Frigate 5 and we really don't like that. And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places. I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this. In the post I quoted above I just meant to highlight that we are not limited to 300% for the other Guristas ships, but again, let's talk about those when we get to them. Oh and on the Succubus, while we may make small changes to cap for Sansha in general, it is likely that cap will continue to be one of the larger weaknesses. The Succubus has very solid cap stats already and we don't want to use up a bonus to make it even better. If the other advantages the ship offers don't outweigh the cap difficulty we will make a change to something. what exactly is the reasoning behind the gurista thing? why do you not just go with something more normal, like 75 bay, 25 bandwidth, and either a 100% or 200% drone damage/hp bonus? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:08:00 -
[275] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this. *Sheds manly tears. I love you Rise. |
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:08:00 -
[276] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Jasen Harper wrote:As a "perfect" Tachmare pilot, I would like to find out if I am going to be losing 25% of my turret damage.
I was never real good at math so how does this stack with 100% hull bonus and how might this (trading turret damage bonus with AB speed bonus) effect that? You will have to wait for the Battleship thread to know for sure, and I'm not past internal review steps with those yet so I don't even know, but I can say that there is no chance of you losing 25% of your DPS. That would be ridiculous.
signed. The oposite is needed. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2070
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:09:00 -
[277] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote: How is the AB bonus that much inherently better than the MWD bonus?
Uses less capacitor, does not turn off when scrammed, "sig radius bonus" of 100% instead of 50%.
The second one is huge. Usually the inherent penalty for zooming into a target quickly to get a hard point scram is that when you get scrammed you're screwed (without using fitting slots and CPU/Grid on a second prop mod). Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.
The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:09:00 -
[278] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit... CCP Rise wrote: Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints
... which just seems icky. I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics. I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.
The fact that your flight will do the equivalent damage of 8 drones until an equivalent of 4 of them are killed eludes you? Or the fact that your frigate stores now the equivalent of 20 scout drones? |
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:10:00 -
[279] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Jasen Harper wrote:As a "perfect" Tachmare pilot, I would like to find out if I am going to be losing 25% of my turret damage.
I was never real good at math so how does this stack with 100% hull bonus and how might this (trading turret damage bonus with AB speed bonus) effect that? You will have to wait for the Battleship thread to know for sure, and I'm not past internal review steps with those yet so I don't even know, but I can say that there is no chance of you losing 25% of your DPS. That would be ridiculous. will the NM have its 20th slot? and at least 6 turrets?
No. 300% on lasers role bonus. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:11:00 -
[280] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.
Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do?
SANSHAS no blood raiders |
|
Connor Frost
Transcendent Innovations Incorporated The.Spanish.Inquisition
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:13:00 -
[281] - Quote
First I will state that the Rattlesnake is hands down my favorite ship in the game. That goes for PVP and PVE and I feel like the drone number loss is going to be a significant disadvantage. Even given the increased HP on drones there are fewer drones for players and NPCs to have to target at kill. Its a pain to use Drones in PVE as it is and this seems to only make it worse.
I may be biased cause I love the rattle how it is and prefer minor tweaks over larger changes. |
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:15:00 -
[282] - Quote
Cruor looks either as kiter or scramrange. If he has a bonus to range web`s, Cruor can`t fulfill bonus neut/vampires.
Logicaly so: scramrange: bonus to Web effectiveness and vampire/neutralizer effectiveness, disraptor range: bonus to range web`s and vampires/neut, BUT far beyond range of scram!!! Range of web`s and vampire must be equal, i think 17-20km looks good. |
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:16:00 -
[283] - Quote
As for the "special feature", instead of adding 100% AB bonus, you could make a Sansha imune to part of the webs, e.g.
SUCCUBUS: 10% (or 15%) reduction per level of enemy webs
Means, if you are being webbed 90%, this web is effective only 45% (or 23%) with Level V.
This avoids overpowered/overspeeded sansha boats when not webbed but gives a nice add on if webbed. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
157
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:20:00 -
[284] - Quote
other idea for the guristas:
gallente bonus: +1 aditional drone per lvl or 20% damage and hitpoints
caldari bonus: 4% to all shield resistances
role bonus: 100% missile max velocity and damage
notes: give the gila and the worm the same insane buffer that the rattlesnake gets, i mean, for example, the worm's shield HP could get increased to be more than the T2 versions of the merlin |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:21:00 -
[285] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote:As for the "special feature", instead of adding 100% AB bonus, you could make a Sansha imune to part of the webs, e.g.
SUCCUBUS: 10% (or 15%) reduction per level of enemy webs
Means, if you are being webbed 90%, this web is effective only 45% (or 23%) with Level V.
This avoids overpowered/overspeeded sansha boats when not webbed but gives a nice add on if webbed.
I like this, but for serpentis instead of the web thing. you get your range dictation so you can apply deeps, but you don't get enable ******** dread blapping and silly gatecamps all that. |
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:21:00 -
[286] - Quote
Striscio wrote:Little Blackjack wrote:CompleteFailure wrote:elitatwo wrote: 2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P) +1
Itago Gemulus wrote:2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300% 300% = 3.00 2*3.00 = 6 learn2maths Your answer is the answer to "how much is 300% of 2 drones?". We are looking for "how much is 300% BONUS on 2 drones". 100% bonus (!) means you add the bonus to the 100% basics. If you salary receives 100% bonus, you will receive 10.000 Euro instead of base salary of 5.000 Euro. math is (5000 *100%) + (5000 *100%) = 10.000 300% Bonus (!) means (2 drones * 100%) + (2 drones * 300% bonus) = 2 drones * 400% = 8 drones In Before "that's 400%!". 25% bonus doesn't mean a ship deal 75% of it's normal damage.
Thats correct, it means 400% of total amount and at the same time 300% bonus. not that difficult, isnt it? 25% bonus means a ship deals 125% in total and is calculated 100%+(100%*25%)= 125% . In above example its 100%+(100%*300%) = 400% in total and 300% BONUS.
got it? |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:22:00 -
[287] - Quote
Rainbow Eyes wrote:Cruor looks either as kiter or scramrange. If he has a bonus to range web`s, Cruor can`t fulfill bonus neut/vampires.
Logicaly so: scramrange: bonus to Web effectiveness and vampire/neutralizer effectiveness, disraptor range: bonus to range web`s and vampires/neut, BUT far beyond range of scram!!! Range of web`s and vampire must be equal, i think 17-20km looks good.
what would look nicer is
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness (-5%) 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35 Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
456
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:23:00 -
[288] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.
The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster.
Web range bonus?
I mean I get it, its fast, but you still can't hit **** while being fast, and you still can't tank anything in comparison. At the end of the day you're both in range and slow'ish, but the Sansha boat can't tank because its slots are used by web/scram, and it can't hit/dps because lasers are outclassed at that range by everything else.
Yes its fast, but its at best, the most "meh" of the group. What role is this filling? |
Brad314
Prospero's Island
14
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:24:00 -
[289] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:A couple more clarifications:
I said 'old nos' in the OP but that can be a bit confusing considering there has been a few different versions. The description provided by bobfrommarketing (I think thats who it was) is very accurate - "Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level". So, it will NOT continue to generate cap when your target is empty, it just doesn't have the same limitation has normal nos where you must have less cap than your target. It's been mentioned that the missile damage bonus on the Worm doesn't make sense as a Gallente bonus and should be on the role bonus. I agree that it would be ideal to have it that way in terms of flavor but giving a 60% per level bonus would mean that the ship was basically unusable until you had Gallente Frigate 5 and we really don't like that. And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places. I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this. In the post I quoted above I just meant to highlight that we are not limited to 300% for the other Guristas ships, but again, let's talk about those when we get to them. Oh and on the Succubus, while we may make small changes to cap for Sansha in general, it is likely that cap will continue to be one of the larger weaknesses. The Succubus has very solid cap stats already and we don't want to use up a bonus to make it even better. If the other advantages the ship offers don't outweigh the cap difficulty we will make a change to something.
Why am I reminded of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0#aid=P-gaT73muQs |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2070
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:25:00 -
[290] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.
Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do? The nos bonus is on blood raiders. But 2 guns with a 125% damage bonus IS a cap use bonus, so I dont really see a problem. My bad, sorry. But with the reduction of one laser and the addition of a nos it seems feasible to keep the ship cap stable. An extra low slot allows you to put on a MAPC if you need power grid.
|
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1098
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:26:00 -
[291] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.
The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster. Web range bonus? I mean I get it, its fast, but you still can't hit **** while being fast, and you still can't tank anything in comparison. At the end of the day you're both in range and slow'ish, but the Sansha boat can't tank because its slots are used by web/scram, and it can't hit/dps because lasers are outclassed at that range by everything else. Yes its fast, but its at best, the most "meh" of the group. What role is this filling?
What weapon system is doing more damage than small pulse lasers at the edge of scram range?
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:28:00 -
[292] - Quote
I will grant that the whole Sansha shipline has always struggled with cap issues...
But honestly, has no one ever heard of the ASB? Its not like active shield tanks are tied to capacitor anymore. They have not even fixed them so you can only fit one per hull yet like they did with the cruddy armor version.
That afterburner bonus makes this ship murderous. I am almost reminded of the days before they nerfed all the fun things you could do with speed mods back in the day. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2070
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:28:00 -
[293] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.
The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster. Web range bonus? Sorry had mental breakdown and equated Succabus with Cruor. Still pretty powerful ship.
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
679
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:29:00 -
[294] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit... CCP Rise wrote: Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints
... which just seems icky. I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics. I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted. The fact that your flight will do the equivalent damage of 8 drones until an equivalent of 4 of them are killed eludes you? Or the fact that your frigate stores now the equivalent of 20 scout drones?
If I understand you correctly you are saying that the 2-drone solution creates a longer delay before drone damage is reduced by someone killing your drones, whereas in the 2-drone solution your damage is reduced more linearly.
None of this was lost on me (thank you for the unnecessary implied ad-hominem). I cannot see that it will have a significant effect on overall damage output when replacement drones are used during the course of a fight.
Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
157
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:29:00 -
[295] - Quote
sanshas:
caldari bonus: 10% reduction in shield booster capacitor need or 10% in laser capacitor need
amarr bonus: 7,5% laser optimal range and tracking
role bonus: 100% bonus to laser turret damage
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1098
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:30:00 -
[296] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?
Enhanced drone damage control algorithms in dedicated drone subprocessors.
Or nanites. Or whatever, lore shouldnt dictate gameplay. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:32:00 -
[297] - Quote
the thing is clear, you want the guristas to be unique?, give them a drone control bonus, no other (non special edition) subcap can do that...... |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
679
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:34:00 -
[298] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?
Enhanced drone damage control algorithms in dedicated drone subprocessors. Or nanites. Or whatever, lore shouldnt dictate gameplay.
fielding 2 super-drones over 5 normal ones that have the same overall performance does not significantly alter gameplay, so why not try to keep the narrative believable, if that's more pleasing to people like me?
If we do not take care over the story line we open ourselves up to the idea of space-wizard flying laser-eyed galactic sharks. I don't think I'd want to play that game. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2801
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:34:00 -
[299] - Quote
Hey, people crying about cap. You're the reason we have a crappy Navy Armageddon that no one uses. Oh god. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
303
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:36:00 -
[300] - Quote
I'm really just plugging my own post, but I saw a few people saying things about a missile-centric caldari/minmarat faction (even Rise mentioned it), so I figured I'd show this here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325023&find=unread "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
|
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
108
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:38:00 -
[301] - Quote
Still not sold on the Blood line. I'm a bit OCD about things, so I definitely appreciate that Blood bonuses are the same up the whole line, but that just doesn't seem to work.
Bhaalgorn works because heavy neuts/nos and its guns have the same range profile as its range bonused webs (not to mention it has the mid-slots to field more than one web, so it effectively usually has a stength bonus as well). Great! Ashimmu's gun range with Scorch will work with range bonused webs, but its neuts/nos are going to be useless at those ranges. The Cruor is even worse off because its guns don't even have enough range to take advantage of range bonused webs, let alone its even shorter ranged neuts/nos.
I'm just struggling to see how you think the Cruor/Ashimmu are going to be used. At one range, half its bonuses are useless, at another, the other half of its bonuses are useless. |
Damien White
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
115
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:38:00 -
[302] - Quote
Can someone explain to me the reason behind a tracking buff for a frigate? 97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:39:00 -
[303] - Quote
Damien White wrote:Can someone explain to me the reason behind a tracking buff for a frigate?
So it can track better? |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2803
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:40:00 -
[304] - Quote
Damien White wrote:Can someone explain to me the reason behind a tracking buff for a frigate? 200% AB velocity?
Oh god. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:42:00 -
[305] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
The fact that your flight will do the equivalent damage of 8 drones until an equivalent of 4 of them are killed eludes you? Or the fact that your frigate stores now the equivalent of 20 scout drones?
If I understand you correctly you are saying that the 2-drone solution creates a longer delay before drone damage is reduced by someone killing your drones, whereas in the 5-drone solution your damage is reduced more linearly.
None of this was lost on me (thank you for the unnecessary implied ad-hominem). I cannot see that it will have a significant effect on overall damage output when replacement drones are used during the course of a fight.
Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?[/quote]
No ad-hominem intended, really. Sorry for that, my english is not perfect.
What I am trying to say is that if you do the math, the overall damage output will be much higher. Even with adjustments for multiple targeting/weapon cycling. More benefits for the bonus would be added resilience against EoE (sbs) and npcs, server optimization if/when scaling becomes an issue, good scaling of rigs like the drone durability enhancer for example (that went unused due to a nasty CPU bite, more effective drone bay capacity (20 scout drones for the new worm etc).
The downsides for this change would be a nerf to versatility when using the hull as a drone boat (by tying the bonus to a specific drone type and removing effective bandwidth for other types).
Overall, I really like it, and can already think of a couple of PvP applications that will make the hull very good (hell, the Taipan was better than it before the change).
Regarding your lore/narrative objection, think about all hulls that get big bonuses, from turrets/launchers to rep modules etc. Thats the same turrets and launchers used in other ships without getting the bonus. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:42:00 -
[306] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: +1 aditional drone per lvl or 20% drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to rocket and light missile damage and max velocity
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): [b]50/50/[b] Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40 |
Tertiacero
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
15
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:43:00 -
[307] - Quote
I would personally love to see the vigilant get a small buff to lock range (enough to make rails a viable option) and have the ashimmu's pg and cpu opened up a tiny bit, enough to cover the difference in meta 4 and t2 plates.
Other than that, looks good so far. |
Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
128
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:45:00 -
[308] - Quote
The Succubus still looks like garbage to me, if I'm honest.
Dual prop fits is an idea, but you're looking at plating the lows or making it a pure speedy glass cannon. Dramiel does both better with more reliable damage projection. MSE tankibus likes the AB changes, so heavy tackle against slow targets is a thing until it gets 2 or more webs thrown down on it, or gut shot by a neutralizer. Usual frigate problem there, though.
What considerations are there for making the Succubus a synergy frigate? A logi-repair bonus or repair receiving bonus that incentivizes groups over single ship powerhousing? It would fit the Sansha MO more, and more squarely place the Succubus in the 'assault frigate' level rather than the awkward inbetween with interceptors it exists at.
(Why the Immolator got the shield rep bonus over the heavier Succubus still baffles me) True Slave Foundations Overseer
-ò |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:45:00 -
[309] - Quote
Tertiacero wrote:I would personally love to see the vigilant get a small buff to lock range (enough to make rails a viable option) and have the ashimmu's pg and cpu opened up a tiny bit, enough to cover the difference in meta 4 and t2 plates.
Other than that, looks good so far.
the short lock range is precisely to stop you from using rails on serpentis ships. it hasn't worked, so they should reduce it even further, or drop the bonus to only blasters. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:46:00 -
[310] - Quote
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and optimal range
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7,5% reduction to shield boost capacitor need
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Slot layout: 3H(-1), 4M, 3L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2) |
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:48:00 -
[311] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: If I understand you correctly you are saying that the 2-drone solution creates a longer delay before drone damage is reduced by someone killing your drones, whereas in the 5-drone solution your damage is reduced more linearly.
None of this was lost on me (thank you for the unnecessary implied ad-hominem). I cannot see that it will have a significant effect on overall damage output when replacement drones are used during the course of a fight.
Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?
No ad-hominem intended, really. Sorry for that, my english is not perfect. What I am trying to say is that if you do the math, the overall damage output will be much higher. Even with adjustments for multiple targeting/weapon cycling. More benefits for the bonus would be added resilience against EoE (sbs) and npcs, server optimization if/when scaling becomes an issue, good scaling of rigs like the drone durability enhancer for example (that went unused due to a nasty CPU bite), more effective drone bay capacity (20 scout drones for the new worm) etc. The downsides for this change would be a nerf to versatility when using the hull as a support drone boat (by tying the bonus to a specific drone type and removing effective bandwidth for other types). Overall, I really like it, and can already think of a couple of PvP applications that will make the hull very good (hell, the Taipan was better than it before the change). Regarding your lore/narrative objection, think about all hulls that get big bonuses, from turrets/launchers to rep modules etc. Thats the same turrets and launchers used in other ships without getting the bonus.
i think the best option is too reduce the bonus and gear it towards 3 drones instead Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association 24eme Legion Etrangere
42
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:48:00 -
[312] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Mornin!
Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
All looks nice but, I must admit, I was hoping you might give them (Sansha) a passive armour regeneration (more Borg like). After all the Sansha's keep dropping armour mods. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
NBrio plugging holes
264
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:49:00 -
[313] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:The Dramiel needs something special other than "OP Firetail", in my opinion. Sansha got afterburners, Blood Raiders got webs and nosferatu, Guristas got super drones, Serpentis got 90% web and Angel got what? I wouldn't mind a nerf to the Angel ships if we got a special bonus like the other pirate races. actual effective projectile turrets, ridiculous speed, sig, agility and scan res should be enough to make a decent ship. if not though, I'm voting for split weapons, provided that light missiles are fixed before any more missile frigates are made. split weapons and being able to armour tank ... these are minnie traits .. the angel line needs more uniqueness and distinction away from minnie ships I just want my blaster / rockets bonused ship that can only hull tank. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Bagehi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
252
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:49:00 -
[314] - Quote
Not a hugely important thing, but I've always wondered why the Vigilant and Vindicator have green backgrounds and the Daredevil has the rust background of Minmatar/Cartel. Also, why the ship is colored Minmatar/Cartel while the other two have distinctive Guardian/Serpentis colors. |
Teoshen
Transcendent Innovations Incorporated The.Spanish.Inquisition
3
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:49:00 -
[315] - Quote
Connor Frost wrote:First I will state that the Rattlesnake is hands down my favorite ship in the game. That goes for PVP and PVE and I feel like the drone number loss is going to be a significant disadvantage. Even given the increased HP on drones there are fewer drones for players and NPCs to have to target at kill. Its a pain to use Drones in PVE as it is and this seems to only make it worse.
I may be biased cause I love the rattle how it is and prefer minor tweaks over larger changes.
I would like to chime in on this as agreeing with Connor there.. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2804
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:50:00 -
[316] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7,5% reduction to shield boost capacitor need
lolwtf
Oh god. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:53:00 -
[317] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:Not a hugely important thing, but I've always wondered why the Vigilant and Vindicator have green backgrounds and the Daredevil has the rust background of Minmatar/Cartel. Also, why the ship is colored Minmatar/Cartel while the other two have distinctive Guardian/Serpentis colors.
its from a lore standpoint, the daredevil was constructed from angel engineers and as such shares the same appearance than the dramiel, while not being minmatar focused, the daredevil has a minmatar origin, but its designed to be used for serpentis agents and as such shares the hybrid and armor bonuses of the other hulls, the vigilant and the vindicator where designs stolen from the gallente navy, and as such have a gallente origin, thus the different background on the icon |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:54:00 -
[318] - Quote
I still think the best fix for the worm would be to take CCP's suggestion, but stretch the bonus to all drone types. Let the worm field 2 light web drones that are durable, provide a stronger web impact, but don't face the stacking penalties that 5 webbers currently face. Or the worm could field light repper drones and not lose efficiency because the 2 it fields ate as strong as 5 normal light reppers.
This way the worm can fight, but can still function in a drone support role and brings more value to underused ewar drones. |
Ravcharas
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
287
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:54:00 -
[319] - Quote
Why not extend the Worm bonus to all drones? If someone wants to use a single medium instead of two lights, why not enable that choice? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:57:00 -
[320] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:Why not extend the Worm bonus to all drones? If someone wants to use a single medium instead of two lights, why not enable that choice?
because it's worse in every way and there's never any reason to ever do it ever |
|
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:57:00 -
[321] - Quote
Altho the worm is really my favorite at the moment it still feels as if the missile bonus is a bit misplaced.
Currently if you fit 2 rocket launchers on it you have 45dps coming from only those rockets. A 50% increase on damage on only 45dps results in 67.5dps.
A bonus that gives you 22.5dps at best seems a little low (considering you will get around the 200dps from drones alone). And this is only with thermal and kinetic.
I would almost like to see the range bonus back on it since it feels as if that adds more to the power of the missiles rather than this little increase. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:58:00 -
[322] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7,5% reduction to shield boost capacitor need lolwtf
i dont see why not |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
304
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:00:00 -
[323] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:Not a hugely important thing, but I've always wondered why the Vigilant and Vindicator have green backgrounds and the Daredevil has the rust background of Minmatar/Cartel. Also, why the ship is colored Minmatar/Cartel while the other two have distinctive Guardian/Serpentis colors. Rise actually responded to a thread I made about this and the nestor's BG. He said they're fixing all of them to have the right ones in a patch soon. "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Ravcharas
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
287
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:02:00 -
[324] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Ravcharas wrote:Why not extend the Worm bonus to all drones? If someone wants to use a single medium instead of two lights, why not enable that choice? because it's worse in every way and there's never any reason to ever do it ever Pretty much, except for a quite theoretical paper scenario. But that's not the point. If someone wants to do it why not let them? In order for there to be good choices there also must be poor choices. Or questionable choices. Or indeed edge-case hail-mary choices. |
Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
67
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:02:00 -
[325] - Quote
I love all these changes, buffs and nerfs alike. This is the happiest I've been with tiericide since the t1 cruiser changes. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:02:00 -
[326] - Quote
I was really hopping split weapon systems were a thing of the past... please rethink the missile bonus and replace with something for drones or e-war or something that requries imagination...
like how about a bonus to e-war drones or utility drones... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:02:00 -
[327] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Ravcharas wrote:Why not extend the Worm bonus to all drones? If someone wants to use a single medium instead of two lights, why not enable that choice? because it's worse in every way and there's never any reason to ever do it ever Pretty much, except for a quite theoretical paper scenario. But that's not the point. If someone wants to do it why not let them? In order for there to be good choices there also must be poor choices. Or questionable choices. Or indeed edge-case hail-mary choices.
no |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:03:00 -
[328] - Quote
Ashley Animus wrote:Altho the worm is really my favorite at the moment it still feels as if the missile bonus is a bit misplaced.
Currently if you fit 2 rocket launchers on it you have 45dps coming from only those rockets. A 50% increase on damage on only 45dps results in 67.5dps.
A bonus that gives you 22.5dps at best seems a little low (considering you will get around the 200dps from drones alone). And this is only with thermal and kinetic.
I would almost like to see the range bonus back on it since it feels as if that adds more to the power of the missiles rather than this little increase.
mmm.. i think the worm should have 3 launchers change the drones too 3 and reduce the bonus so there is a more even split of dps.. more pg and cpu will prob be needed for it Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:05:00 -
[329] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Ashley Animus wrote:Altho the worm is really my favorite at the moment it still feels as if the missile bonus is a bit misplaced.
Currently if you fit 2 rocket launchers on it you have 45dps coming from only those rockets. A 50% increase on damage on only 45dps results in 67.5dps.
A bonus that gives you 22.5dps at best seems a little low (considering you will get around the 200dps from drones alone). And this is only with thermal and kinetic.
I would almost like to see the range bonus back on it since it feels as if that adds more to the power of the missiles rather than this little increase. mmm.. i think the worm should have 3 launchers change the drones too 3 and reduce the bonus so there is a more even split of dps.. more pg and cpu will prob be needed for it
CCP don't like proper split weapons ships for some reason. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:06:00 -
[330] - Quote
the problem here is that the idea of Rise is to make them full drone users and take out the bonus to missiles, i think it would make more sense to give them a unique role with drones, and increase their missile bonus, make them shine with one or the other, or both......not make it yet another drone boat...
for the sanshas it could be either a tank bonus or an EWAR one, sansha's usually use tracking disruptors in missions, so it wouldnt be too crazy to think about replacing the 5% damage bonus for a 7,5% bonus to tracking disruptor effectivenes and range, and aditional to that, give them an aditional optimal range for lazors (tied to the 7,5% tracking bonus) |
|
jayla blacks
NEW META LazyProd
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:07:00 -
[331] - Quote
..... nerf ashimmu more useless, ashimmu with bonus range ...
this is not a battleship !!!! it's cruiser !!! take the rapier for range web !!
Don't touche Ashimmu ! |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:09:00 -
[332] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP don't like proper split weapons ships for some reason.
its for a damn good reason...
its called training time.
you need to double the training time when you have split weapon systems...
Personally i would go either all missiles or all drones...
I really think those small drones need a velocity bonus and tracking bonus to make it a really nasty ship...
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:10:00 -
[333] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:the problem here is that the idea of Rise is to make them full drone users and take out the bonus to missiles, i think it would make more sense to give them a unique role with drones, and increase their missile bonus, make them shine with one or the other, or both......not make it yet another drone boat...
The worm got a damage buff for both missiles and drones. What are you talking about?
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:13:00 -
[334] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP don't like proper split weapons ships for some reason. its for a damn good reason... its called training time. you need to double the training time when you have split weapon systems... Personally i would go either all missiles or all drones... I really think those small drones need a velocity bonus and tracking bonus to make it a really nasty ship...
it's actually because you're a pleb |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:13:00 -
[335] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Ravcharas wrote:Why not extend the Worm bonus to all drones? If someone wants to use a single medium instead of two lights, why not enable that choice? because it's worse in every way and there's never any reason to ever do it ever Pretty much, except for a quite theoretical paper scenario. But that's not the point. If someone wants to do it why not let them? In order for there to be good choices there also must be poor choices. Or questionable choices. Or indeed edge-case hail-mary choices. It is like that for good reasons, also I believe it is put that way to indicate future limits for the others. Assuming the Gila gets 20mbps 4 lights are > 2 medium drones and if the rattler gets 50mbps 5 medium > 2 heavy drones. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:14:00 -
[336] - Quote
this is what i would prefer to see tbh:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 7.5% to drone mwd speed and tracking (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:15:00 -
[337] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote: it's actually because you're a pleb
right when you have no real counter argument bring out the straw man... If you only had a brain... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:16:00 -
[338] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote: it's actually because you're a pleb
right when you have no real counter argument bring out the straw man... If you only had a brain...
stop shitposting |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:16:00 -
[339] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote: Never flown a sansha, did you? Can't use AB long term cause it eats the cap u need for the lasers/shields. No second of cap to spend on AB in current config. So useless bonus without cap changes.
Are you joking? |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:16:00 -
[340] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:the problem here is that the idea of Rise is to make them full drone users and take out the bonus to missiles, i think it would make more sense to give them a unique role with drones, and increase their missile bonus, make them shine with one or the other, or both......not make it yet another drone boat... The worm got a damage buff for both missiles and drones. What are you talking about?
that bonus to kin and therm damage is garbage....... |
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:17:00 -
[341] - Quote
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:I love all these changes, buffs and nerfs alike. This is the happiest I've been with tiericide since the t1 cruiser changes.
edit: Especially the part about leaving Serpentis mostly alone, since they're the baseline other pirate ships should aim for.
while i hope they do not touch serp web bonus i would not be at all suprised if they nerfed it to 7.5% per level making it 82.5% strong and not 90%
much like they did with the resist bonus which used to be the best bonus a ship could get. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:18:00 -
[342] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:MeBiatch wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote: it's actually because you're a pleb
right when you have no real counter argument bring out the straw man... If you only had a brain... stop shitposting
do you have any point to make or just wasting space with stop posting or cuss you are this or that? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:19:00 -
[343] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Tuxedo Catfish wrote:I love all these changes, buffs and nerfs alike. This is the happiest I've been with tiericide since the t1 cruiser changes.
edit: Especially the part about leaving Serpentis mostly alone, since they're the baseline other pirate ships should aim for. while i hope they do not touch serp web bonus i would not be at all suprised if they nerfed it to 7.5% per level making it 82.5% strong and not 90% much like they did with the resist bonus which used to be the best bonus a ship could get.
that's still insanely powerful. try 40% normal webs, 50% serpentis webs. |
woodall
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:19:00 -
[344] - Quote
I'm most interested around the Sansha ships as the Succubus and Phantasm are really really unpopular even compared to their Blood Raider and Gurista counterparts. This afterburner bonus is nice and adds something different, as especially paired with the huge buff to it's velocity will result in it achieving like 1500+ m/s. So even scrammed and webbed it'll still be doing 600 or so m/s.
Something I think would be even better and even more unique, though. Changing that 20% bonus to afterburner velocity to a 10% reduction in effectiveness of all targeted electronic warfare. So at frigate level 5; 60% webs are only 30% webs, ECM is only half as powerful, target painters only bloom the signature radius half as much, and so on including sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, energy vampires and neutralisers etc. Warp disruptors and warp scramblers wouldn't affected by this ship bonus in any way.
Anyways, just an idea I think is pretty cool, and pretty unique (also kind of plays on the Sansha high tech lore stuff). Overall, however, I'm pretty happy with these changes and can't wait to see what they do with the rest of the pirate ships. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:21:00 -
[345] - Quote
woodall wrote:I'm most interested around the Sansha ships as the Succubus and Phantasm are really really unpopular even compared to their Blood Raider and Gurista counterparts. This afterburner bonus is nice and adds something different, as especially paired with the huge buff to it's velocity will result in it achieving like 1500+ m/s. So even scrammed and webbed it'll still be doing 600 or so m/s.
More like twice that. It does ~1000m/s already on ab. Its getting basically a 16% base velocity bonus and a 100% ab boost bonus. |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
457
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:22:00 -
[346] - Quote
Side note, for the blood raider line, have you thought about giving them a bonus to the neut drones? I know you said you didn't want to touch the ewar drones until they are balanced, but it would make for an interesting line up.
You can still get the neut power without having to force highslots to be neuts, meaning it can have applicable dps, or fewer highs and better mids/lows. While also forcing the trade off of destructible systems (blowing up neut drones, etc). It gives it a nice change and makes for an easier ship to try and do so many things (webs + neuts + damage + tank, is a lot for such few modules). |
Onslaughtor
Carbon.
76
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:25:00 -
[347] - Quote
As a person who loves the Sansha ships I'm a little torn. I really do like what your trying to do with the ships, but I feel it strays way to far what Sansha ships ARE, and that's fleet combat vessels. Unlike all the other pirates Sansha's Nation is not just a bunch of pirates but a sovereign entity, and theirs ships should reflect that. My opinion is to leave the design as it is and give it some tweaks to facilitate fleet work and add a little bit of damage.
change the damage bonus to 7.5% per level move the 2 utility highs to a mid and a low. adjust some ehp and fitting space.
This would make the entire line viable without sacrificing any of the flavor sansha ships have.
|
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:25:00 -
[348] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:MeBiatch wrote: while i hope they do not touch serp web bonus i would not be at all suprised if they nerfed it to 7.5% per level making it 82.5% strong and not 90%
much like they did with the resist bonus which used to be the best bonus a ship could get.
that's still insanely powerful. try 40% normal webs, 50% serpentis webs.
true enough I remember though back in the marauder thread that was the idea they were going for and still people were pretty upset by it...
so perhaps starting with just a reduction in 2.5% per level would be a good place to start. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
342
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:27:00 -
[349] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit... CCP Rise wrote: Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints
... which just seems icky. I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics. I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.
Being different to be different isn't a valid answer. The only half-way acceptable answer here is if you are using this as a test bed to reduce server load for drones. Even then it is pretty weak.
|
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1745
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:27:00 -
[350] - Quote
I have a feeling faction and dead space afterburners sell prices are going to spike... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:27:00 -
[351] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:The Sansha need more work, why would anyone use a succubus when the Retribution is basically the same thing, but armor tanked?
Retribution has 0 range control.
Quote: How is the AB bonus that much inherently better than the MWD bonus?
Ab gives range control inside scram range, and better sig tank abillity. The succubus with an ab will go faster than a mwd retribution, while having 1/3rd the signature.
Quote:
You've given them a new bonus to speed, but no adjustments to their damage application, so now you're just going really fast and missing all the time.
There is more to frigate piloting than orbiting 500m
Quote:Lasers are not the inherit bonus that they were designed to be, their range is decent but their damage is weak, and compared to rails there's no huge benefit to beams. Range isn't important enough of a factor in frigate warfare to warrant using beams when Scorch will do 90% of the work.
Frigate pvp is pretty much all about range. A succubus does more dps than a thrasher at the edge of scram range, even with barrage.
Quote: I don't see this making the Sansha line desirable. You'll still be caught by interceptors, or dramiels, you'll be out dps'ed and out tanked, so why bother?
If you cant kill brawling interceptors in a succubus, I dont really know what to say. A succubus in scram web range will be faster than a dramiel, and out dps it as well, outside of 6k (and thats including the dram's drones) |
Kogh Ayon
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:28:00 -
[352] - Quote
While marauders are being promoted to both PVE and PVP, can you justify the situation of Nightmare that just being a good PVE ship?
Bastion module is a big fail because you want to put more risk to the ships with lower power/isk ratio, and excessively more expensive. You will want to have a look into those solo T3s and Machariel , though they are expensive ,they are less likely to get caught, and they are actually being used and quite popular.
People can accept the result that expensive solo ships being difficult to catch, but if you just making them a bit more powerful but very easy to get ganked, then they will simply fall to a pure PVE ship. Nightmare, check, Rattlesnake, check. Golem/Paladin, check, station camping pricks, check.
Pirate cruiser? they are simply sad from all the aspects, even for the cynabal, good to see them getting balanced. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:29:00 -
[353] - Quote
sansha line need that nos utility high for any close range fighting..
perhaps increase the base speed and reduce mass .. then you could reduce the AB bonus a little... this would help insulate against being neuted out and becoming fairly slow again .... think more daredevil with a strong AB bonus.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:33:00 -
[354] - Quote
WTB: old phantasm skin |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:35:00 -
[355] - Quote
another idea for the sanshas:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7,5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking, optimal and falloff
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7,5 bonus to tracking disruptor effectivenes and optimal range
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M, 2L ; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2) |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:38:00 -
[356] - Quote
Small nitpick on the succubus, its current signature is 35, not 33. So its -2 sig, not +2 |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
458
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:40:00 -
[357] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:another idea for the sanshas:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7,5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking, optimal and falloff
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7,5 bonus to tracking disruptor effectivenes and optimal range
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M, 2L ; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2)
And where, exactly will you fit the tank for this on top of the prop mod, and obligatory scram/web? |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:43:00 -
[358] - Quote
The worms basically the ishkur, shield missile edition for the most part. If its average dps is around 250, it should be fine.
With that said, it needs a 3rd missile slot to be useful.
Its bonus now is a little awkward. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Vestus Regula
Moratorium Inc.
8
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:46:00 -
[359] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:A couple more clarifications: (...) And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places.
Yeah, like Titans, Stealth Bombers and every other caldari missile boat. -¼-¼
By having fixed damage bonus types (specially thermal and kinetic - which, let's face it, pretty much everyone has medium / high resistances to), you're axing missiles greatest advantage against turrets. Yes, lasers and hybrids have fixed damage types, and projectile guns have mixed damage ammo, but they have a number of advantages when compared to missiles (instant damage application, can crit).
Yes, missiles always hit (provided the target is in range), but their damage can be so severely reduced by speed / signature, you might as well call it a miss.
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:47:00 -
[360] - Quote
how about this for a more focused blueprint for angels more focus on projectiles damage/projection .. since they are supposed too be the masters of projectiles .. stronger shield tank focus .. smaller sig when zipping around .. less speed so its no longer quicker than inties. also angels shouldn't have much droneage..
DRAMIEL
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 12.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff (+2.5%) 10% mwd sig radius penalty reduction
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 3 turrets, 0 (-1) launchers Fittings: 40 (+3) PWG, 133 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 590(+7) / 490(-92) / 520(+3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 370(+5) / 208000(-26375) / 1.77(+.22) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 420 (-40) / 3.1(-.02) / 950000 / 4.08s(-.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0( -15/-20) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 28km(+3km) / 750 / 5 Sensor strength: 11 Signature radius: 30(-2) Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:49:00 -
[361] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:another idea for the sanshas:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7,5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking, optimal and falloff
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 7,5 bonus to tracking disruptor effectivenes and optimal range
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M, 2L ; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2) And where, exactly will you fit the tank for this on top of the prop mod, and obligatory scram/web?
that's what i need to find, how about this layout:
2H, 6M, 2L
|
Silverbackyererse
39
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:49:00 -
[362] - Quote
Worm changes to it's launcher dps is very welcome. Please consider making it all damage types though please. Not so sure about the drone changes to Guri pirate faction ship but more than happy to suck it and see. This thing is a darn brick too, nice to see it getting some extra speed.
Yes, please leave the web bonus on the D/Devil. These things are fun ships to fly but also not terribly difficult to bring down. Balance here is best out of all the Pirate frigates I think!
Cruor - not flown the ones I have since losing one to an Incursus once. Old NOS back on these is simply awesome!
Dramiel has been lacklustre since the previous change. Some extra grid and CPU would also be most welcome. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:50:00 -
[363] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote: 2H, 6M, 2L
That is hilarious. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
469
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:52:00 -
[364] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:LT Alter wrote:Michael Harari wrote: In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.
You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken. I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing. A ship at 0 velocity gets hit for full dps by any guns not mounted on a titan.Also, didnt you lose a bait tengu to me because you didnt know you cant light cynos in deadspace? And then had to burn a bunch of canes and falcons to save the archon you warped in? say that to my ishtar, using gardes, at optimal of a pos, missing 10-15% of the shots..... and i'm fully skilled |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:53:00 -
[365] - Quote
the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:55:00 -
[366] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
everybody loves op **** even if its not fully thought thrue. |
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:56:00 -
[367] - Quote
NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways.
It would be nice to catch kiters and everything else within maybe 26km of an overheated t1 web. With which you end up getting close enough to neut them. |
Morwennon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:57:00 -
[368] - Quote
NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. i too find that all my targets conveniently situate themselves at my preferred range and never have to run them down or catch them Ceterum censeo, the RLML and HML nerfs must be undone. |
Oberus MacKenzie
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
21
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:57:00 -
[369] - Quote
Interesting changes. I think the sansha are still getting the short straw here because of how absolutely awful their cap is and how totally dependent on it they are. Maybe an expanded cargo bay would allow for better cap booster use?
I'm also not sure that I like the idea of bringing back the completely overpowered NOS mechanics on ships with a web range bonus. The only way to get out from under something like that would be to use ECM, and I think there should be multiple tactics available to deal with any given situation.
On the flip side, I do like how the blood raiders pull ewars from both of their parent races. Maybe that could be something to think about as an approach to all pirate frigates. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2300
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:58:00 -
[370] - Quote
Morwennon wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. i too find that all my targets conveniently situate themselves at my preferred range and never have to run them down or catch them
Cut him some slack he's in Razor Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
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JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
287
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:58:00 -
[371] - Quote
The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP. |
Archanik
Edge Enterprises Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:59:00 -
[372] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Rattlesnake = only shield tanked drone ship ingame that is viable. "Lets take the redundant missile velocity bonus and make it a redundant missile damage bonus." Also as someone who literally only pilots a rattlesnake unless I'm in a shuttle or in a site the rattler can't get into, I am very strongly opposed to the rattlesnake changing in a negative way. I'll have to wait to see what you guys do as so far for balancing you've done a bang up job. I would argue that giving the rattler a sentry drone tracking bonus would perfect it. You'll say "But it overlaps with the dominix!" but it doesn't. No-one shield tanks a dominix. No-one armor tanks a rattler. There is no overlap there. Get an armor tanked dominix, or shell out for a pimped faction shield domi. Sounds fine to me.
This is exactly my feeling on this as well, i only use my rattlesnake anymore and its not like any other ship out there at all, its the only shield tanking drone boat out there, so please dont ruin that or change it too greatly as we dont really have any other good options for drone shield tanking ships! |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 19:59:00 -
[373] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Morwennon wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. i too find that all my targets conveniently situate themselves at my preferred range and never have to run them down or catch them Cut him some slack he's in Razor
sorry what B-R? |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:02:00 -
[374] - Quote
This is horrible news for me, my favorite frigate is the Worm and what make the ship fun for me is the fact that it's shield tanked drone frigate that can use 5 light drones.
Please don't remove the ability to use 5 drones from the Worm, instead change the proposed drone role bonus to 75%-100% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints, and keep the current worm 25 bandwidth and 50 bay.
Thank you. The Tears Must Flow |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:02:00 -
[375] - Quote
NinjaStyle wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Morwennon wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. i too find that all my targets conveniently situate themselves at my preferred range and never have to run them down or catch them Cut him some slack he's in Razor sorry what B-R?
Clearly being in a coalition of alliances with a lot of titans owned by other people makes you qualified to talk about frigate pvp |
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc Zero Hour Alliance
288
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:03:00 -
[376] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
The missile damage bonus being linked to the Gallente side of the frigate feels horribly wrong from a racial distinction point of view. I'm not sure if the shield resist bonus should fit the Gallente any better if they were to swap though. |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:04:00 -
[377] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Morwennon wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. i too find that all my targets conveniently situate themselves at my preferred range and never have to run them down or catch them Cut him some slack he's in Razor sorry what B-R? Clearly being in a coalition of alliances with a lot of titans owned by other people makes you qualified to talk about frigate pvp
we can't all lose 100b frigs :) |
Telemachus Rheade
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
40
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:05:00 -
[378] - Quote
Thanks for buffing all the RvB frig noobs in the game! Good changes, so so about the Worm/Gurista line, but will adapt.
Keep the Serpentis 90% web bonus. It's one race of expensive ships. If someone brings a Vindi/Vigilant/DD to a fight, whether it is for dread blapping, or blapping small stuff, good for them and they should have a special bonus.
Don't mess up the Angel/Serpentis line as you move forward with Cruisers and BS . Keep up the good work! |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
458
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:06:00 -
[379] - Quote
JEFFRAIDER wrote:The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP.
This is why I like the idea of the bonus to Neut drones. It removes the aspect of drone range and allows you to kite out to your hearts content. |
Storm Novah
Yada Industries
21
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:06:00 -
[380] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50. I would heartily disagree... I fly a Nightmare and have flown both the Phantasm and Succubus in the past. Do you have any idea how much easier my life would be if they had the same calibration as all the other ships in the game? I currently have 2 ccc1s and a ccc2 on my Nightmare and wish I could make it 2 ccc2s and 1 cc1 instead. It would let me get rid of 1 of the 2 cap flux coils I have to use. And for the Phantasm... I used to need the exact same thing as my NM along with a power diagnostic unit. I have seen my husband struggle with similar issues for the other pirate faction ships. Its a logical step to take and it would alleviate fitting issues for most of the ships. Anyway... just my thoughts on the matter.
As for the rest of the changes... I am actually very excited. I can go and fly my sub-BS Sansha ships with pride again instead of hiding them like they are some dirty little secret. |
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:07:00 -
[381] - Quote
NinjaStyle wrote:
we can't all lose 100b frigs :)
120b |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:09:00 -
[382] - Quote
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and optimal range (?)
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35
so, people was complaining about not enough neuting range? how about that? |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:09:00 -
[383] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:
we can't all lose 100b frigs :)
120b
you just paid too mutch for it bro |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:10:00 -
[384] - Quote
NinjaStyle wrote:Michael Harari wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:
we can't all lose 100b frigs :)
120b you just paid too mutch for it bro
Thats what we sell them for |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:11:00 -
[385] - Quote
why am I the only one who thinks 3 lowslot cruor is ********? it's awful. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1100
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:11:00 -
[386] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:why am I the only one who thinks 3 lowslot cruor is ********? it's awful.
I think moving a high to a low would be pretty good. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:14:00 -
[387] - Quote
Liner Xiandra wrote:CCP Rise wrote: WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
The missile damage bonus being linked to the Gallente side of the frigate feels horribly wrong from a racial distinction point of view. I'm not sure if the shield resist bonus should fit the Gallente any better if they were to swap though.
I really hate the new Worm :(. They should just scrap the missile bonus from the ship, the Worm should be a shield tanked (Caldari) drone (Gallente) frigate. The Tears Must Flow |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
208
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:16:00 -
[388] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:christ 5km/s succubus... i know its a sandbox but surely limiting prop mods to their class size is sensible here like you do with guns etc...
i mean think about the size of a cruiser AB on a frigate wouldn't it rip the thing apart or something
No please don't do that. Fitting oversized afterburners on ships has so many uses. For example in wspace the HIC with a BS AB for closing holes. Besides fitting an oversized AB has a lot of trade offs already. Certainly a 5km/s seems OP, but given a succubus' range, and cap limitations it's not that bad. The obvious counter is cap drain.... Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE The Diogenes Club
29
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:22:00 -
[389] - Quote
Ugg...this thing is already a threadnought.
::HOPING MY COMMENTS AREN'T BURIED::
Ok - so is it just me??? Or aren't Pirate ships SUPPOSED to be the best of the best.
I can't say I like the way CCP is going with all this. It takes longer and more money to train into them for a reason. I KNOW people are going to hate me for saying this...
...but SHOULDN'T THEY BE BETTER IN MOST WAYS than T2 and Navy variants!?
Just saying.
I could comment on EACH ship but overall the feeling I get is "meh."
I am not saying make each one the ROFL Pawn-mobile, but at least make it something to be FEARED! That you KNOW you don't take on a say a Dare Devil or Nightmare solo in anything else solo or at least without superior skills or superior numbers. There is nothing wrong with that. People can pick their engagements that way and technique.
/Ms Michigan
P.S. Flame on. |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
458
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:23:00 -
[390] - Quote
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 3H, 3M, 4L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35
Nos range still applicable if you need/want it, and utility high to fit it. Extra high moved to low for better tank/damage trade offs. Drone bonus removes neut range issue and forces interesting dynamic with range and destructible ewar. |
|
Rykki Atruin
IPC Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:25:00 -
[391] - Quote
I'm one of the few pilots who actually uses a Worm, and I'm a bit torn here. I'm glad to get rid of the increased drone bay in favor of a HUGE drone damage buff, but I'm sad to see my missile velocity bonus go away. I use my trusty little Guristas frigate for exploration and tend to punch above my weight so to speak. So far I've run DED 3/10 sites with her quite easily simply because I can kite everything.
I've never been fond of the kinetic damage bonus and it seems to me that it's a distinctly Caldari bonus which this ship already has in the form of it's resist bonus (which I definitely don't want to lose!). Looking for new and experienced carebears |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
109
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:26:00 -
[392] - Quote
Peter Powers wrote:i hate to be so negative, but you asked for opinions, an i have one:
unimaginative changes.
AB speed bonus for sansha makes sense how? Speed is a Minmatar thing, Minmatar, as in "can't afford as high-tech-as-other-races-so-goes-for-an-speed-option". While Sansha is one of the most technologically advanced factions in eve. What could have been some imaginative solution? how about some specific anti-drone ecm, that messes with bandwidths or drone control? That would actually sound like a technology sansha could have, doesn't it?
the blood changes actually make sense, even though they are not really creative.
guristas: drones used to be a gallente thing that amarr would sort-of-use-as-well-but-not-as-much-as-gallente.. but now we have amarr, gallente both drone operators.. so yeah, why not a lore wise caldari based faction being even more drone focused as well...
the blood change ends up being the only one that makes real sense, the other two don't really diversify those factions from the 4 main races, infact they seem to equal them out even more, rather than creating a rock paper scissors situation.
They have decided to make sansha suck even more duhhhh. I mean it even comes with a nice phat PG nerf. Y'know cause lasers aren't one of the most intensive weapon classes to fit to begin with. Never mind that you're stuck shield tanking..3 effective...wait sorry 2 effective slots. The succubus's anemic damage hasn't changed one bit. That increased damage bonus was just a transfer of said bonus to the proper place. The AB bonus does absolutely zero in terms of today's meta. I guess for low sec FW novice plexes its ok...and you might kite if you beam fit it. Seems an awful niche to fill. |
Lugalzagezi666
218
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:27:00 -
[393] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote: 125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness
Not sure if serious... |
Windman Advena
Facehoof
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:29:00 -
[394] - Quote
worm: There is't any frigates with drone dps bonus, so 5 effective drones is maximum. 8 effective drones looks disbalanced. 200% bonus will be fine. And it's not a missle boat at all. Maybe split drone damage modification between role and gallente bonuces. Role bonus: 100% more drone damage and hitpoints. Gallente per level: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Cruor: Current variant allow to use only 1 bonus (web range/neut str) at a time. Maybe it's planned. My wariant: Matar per level +20% to web range (20km) Amarr per level +40% to energy neutralaser/vampire range (19.8km) only range
Succubus: I see it usefull only in very strange configs. For me it's OK. |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
458
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:29:00 -
[395] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:PinkKnife wrote: 125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness
Not sure if serious...
Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate.
Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range. |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
739
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:30:00 -
[396] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:PinkKnife wrote: 125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness
Not sure if serious... This is a complete joke |
Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy The Obsidian Front
93
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:31:00 -
[397] - Quote
Personally, I'd still like to see the Serpentis web bonus dropped to 7.5%. It's not like it wouldn't still be effective, just not crushingly so any more.
I always liked the idea of 5/7.5/10% on frig/cruiser/BS too. Welcome to our universe where cooldown timers are a mystery, the PLEX menu is just an advertisement, shrapnel bombs deal explosive force, concussion bombs are somehow kinetically penetrative, and who left all these prototype Inferno modules all over the place? |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
739
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:35:00 -
[398] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:PinkKnife wrote: 125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness
Not sure if serious... Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate. Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range. As long as it doesn't affect the neuts on the actual ship it might be a decent idea. |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
739
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:36:00 -
[399] - Quote
Johann Rascali wrote:Personally, I'd still like to see the Serpentis web bonus dropped to 7.5%. It's not like it wouldn't still be effective, just not crushingly so any more.
I always liked the idea of 5/7.5/10% on frig/cruiser/BS too. Please, no.
Just no.
We had a gigantic threadnought on this a few days ago, and it's a terrible idea.
There's no need to change the Daredevil now that the other Pirate frigs are just as good. |
Lugalzagezi666
218
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:37:00 -
[400] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:PinkKnife wrote: 125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness
Not sure if serious... Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate. Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range.
Only difference is that any frigate can basically 2 shot them without even needing a web (same with any ship that can field flight of lights). They are literally useless.
|
|
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
843
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:38:00 -
[401] - Quote
Some thoughts:
- The AB bonuses for Sansha ships should be cool, so long as they all get enough of a mobility buff that using prop mods on them isn't a waste of time generally (as I recall, Sansha ships have always been stupidly slow bricks. Phantasm, I'm looking at you!)
- The "old nos" idea for the Blood Raider ships sounds good, but please don't stop there (more on this later)
- I really don't get the Guristas theme change: OK, sure, the ships will do as much damage using two drones as an un-bonused ship would do with six, but you're still doing (and absorbing!) LESS damage at the end of the day than a bonused drone boat does with five drones while also presenting an opponent with even fewer targets to juggle if they try to shoot your drones down. I realize you're also giving it a bonus to missile damage, but there are already Gallente ships that get a drone bonus alongside a turret bonus, so that's hardly a unique selling point either. You may want to consider branching those ships out into the realms of EWAR or something (Missile ships with bonuses to point and damp range could be interesting, maybe? Or maybe ships with little damage output but bonuses to both RSDs and ECM? Idk, just grasping at straws here because the current and proposed flavors don't sound very desireable, and my massive collection of Guristas ship BPCs really hopes you'll make these ships desirable, because quite frankly its ridiculous that every other pirate BS BPC goes for ~a billion ISK while Rattlesnake BPCs are worth ~250m.
- I'm glad you're leaving the Serpentis web bonus alone, since it's literally the one and only selling point of those ships. Even with the 90% webs, Serp ships are incredibly frustrating hulls to try and use. The Vindicator works because it's a battleship, and battleship-sized armor mods provide a lot of punch in terms of tanking ability. The Vigilant and Daredevil are both just awful, awful ships to try and fit practically: they don't have enough lows to fit a relevant armor tank, and they don't have enough mid-slots to fit a decent shield tank while still fitting a point and web. They need either another low or another mid-- take your pick (I'd prefer a mid, but that's just me). They also lack utility highslots on the cruiser and battleship, which is very frustrating since you can't fit defensive neuts/nos or cloaks without gimping their dps so severely that they go back to being outclassed by any non-pirate ship that can fit a full compliment of weapons alongside a utility mod. You guys should really reduce their turret counts by one and increase their damage bonus to offset it.
- Angel ships aren't exactly OP. I don't know how you can state that here with a straight face when the Mach just took a nut-shot from the warp-speed mechanics changes (it's now much, much harder to skirmish with since anything in the game can outrun you as soon as it comes time to warp anywhere), the Cynabal is straight-up outclassed as a ship by the Stratios in literally every metric (AND the Statios gets a covert cloak, because that's balanced), you already nerfed the Dramiel into irrelevance years ago (and that's taken another indirect nerf as a result of your interceptor buffs), and the whole lineup has suffered at the hands of the tracking enhancer nerf. The Angel line as a whole is not overpowered at all; if anything, those hulls struggle to justify their pricetags at this point. I say this as someone who owns literally all of them and has been a big Angel enthusiast in the past. I've mothballed my entire collection because there are simply plenty of better options to go with these days, most of which either cost less money or provide more utility. Or both.
A final thought:
- You guys should be on the lookout for bonus combinations that don't synergize well at different module sizes. Your proposed web range and neut/nos transfer amount bonuses on the Blood ships are a good example: these bonuses will work very well together on the Bhaalgorn, where web range and neut range will be roughly equal, but will synergize very poorly on the Cruor (where you'll have a standoff web bonus, but will have to close to scram range to use your neuts/nos anyway, greatly de-valuing the web range bonus). As an example, the Cruor should probably get a web range bonus, nos/neut amount, and a neut/nos range bonus a-la the Sentinel, so it can actually be useful at range. I think you guys should move beyond figuring out a blanket set of bonuses for entire ship lines and move to a system of unique bonuses for each hull that are still thematically-compatible but are tailored to the specifics of that platform. It makes sense given that hull size has a massive effect on what tactics are and aren't viable for a ship. Bonuses that work well at one size don't necessarily translate well to other hull classes.
|
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
739
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:38:00 -
[402] - Quote
NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways.
I heard about this module called a "MWD"...
You should check it out. You know, before you make baseless assumptions.
On another note, the Dramiel could use a buff. It's not nearly as good any more... |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
458
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:40:00 -
[403] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:PinkKnife wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:PinkKnife wrote: 125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness
Not sure if serious... Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate. Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range. As long as it doesn't affect the neuts on the actual ship it might be a decent idea.
The idea being to make it more friendly to range.
Have the drone neut rates be the same as the neuts on the boat rate. I don't know what equivalent bonus that would be (haven't done the math).
2x light neuts x 15% ship bonus = (neut drone bonus rate)x 2 drones...so whatever that variable is.
But it alleviates the range issue, and allows you to spend the highs on turrets and a nos. Which can then give you another low/mid.
You trade neut range and cap usage for potentially losing your drones. It also allows you to focus on web range/damage/tank in regards to fitting. Also makes you less "welp ecm gg". |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:40:00 -
[404] - Quote
another version for the guristas:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile max velocity
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
the ship gets at full lvl V skills a 100% of damage for drones and a 100% bonus to missiles, but sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus. as compensation the ship gets a buffer in line with the rattlesnake, i mean, gets large buffer for its ship class, in this case a more than 1000 shield HP |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:42:00 -
[405] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. I heard about this module called a "MWD"... You should check it out. You know, before you make baseless assumptions. On another note, the Dramiel could use a buff. It's not nearly as good any more...
brawling cruor will die to my jerk scram kite incursus, I'm looking forward to it. unless they have deadspace nos, then they won't. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2301
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:43:00 -
[406] - Quote
To anybody complaining about the Worm.
Stop.
Full stop.
Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:
Augmented Warriors
Shield -464 Armor -692 Structure -1040
2196 total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.
Republic Fleet Warriors
Shield -616 Armor -920 Structure-576
2112 Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds.
Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.
He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).
You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).
Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Challus Mercer
Sacred Temple Darkness of Despair
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:45:00 -
[407] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50. Ah cmon, just make it 400. I dont think it would be OP if we could fit more T2 DPS rigs into pirate ships. |
Lugalzagezi666
218
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:46:00 -
[408] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. I heard about this module called a "MWD"... You should check it out. You know, before you make baseless assumptions. On another note, the Dramiel could use a buff. It's not nearly as good any more...
That changes nothing about what he said.
Cruor doesnt have the range on guns and neither neuts/nos to use its web bonus. Want to deal 100 scorch dps with pulses - you have to go into scram range. Want to neut your target so you actually can break its tank with 100dps - you have to go DEEP inside scram range. And only thing that awaits you there is being scrammed and counterwebbed and losing any mobility advantage you had (with 90% web).
The only ships it can help you with are nano kiters - that will damp you to oblivion anyway.
|
Naomi Anthar
304
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:48:00 -
[409] - Quote
<3 <3 <3 CCP Rise <3 <3 <3
I love you , it's not physical love tho. But i still do.
You made great justice for sansha and blood lineup (guristas aswell) ... now the description of those ships is not joke anymore
<3 <3 <3 CCP Rise <3 <3 <3
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:49:00 -
[410] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:To anybody complaining about the Worm.
Stop.
Full stop.
Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:
Augmented Warriors
Shield -464 Armor -692 Structure -1040
2196 total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.
Republic Fleet Warriors
Shield -616 Armor -920 Structure-576
2112 Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds.
Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.
He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).
You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).
Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.
I'm not saying bad, I'm just saying pretty odd, and with not much explanation. |
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1101
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:51:00 -
[411] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Cruor doesnt have the range on guns and neither neuts/nos to use its web bonus. Want to deal 100 scorch dps with pulses - you have to go into scram range. Want to neut your target so you actually can break its tank with 100dps - you have to go DEEP inside scram range. And only thing that awaits you there is being scrammed and counterwebbed and losing any mobility advantage you had (with 90% web).
The only ships it can help you with are nano kiters - that will damp you to oblivion anyway.
You can push a cruor to 17km optimal pretty easily, with 150 dps (and you also have 2 drones now). |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:52:00 -
[412] - Quote
following the last iteration of the worm, since gurista ships would loose their resistance bonus, it would be cool to give it to the sanshas
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Slot layout: 3H(-1), 4M, 3L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2) |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:52:00 -
[413] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:To anybody complaining about the Worm.
Stop.
Full stop.
Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:
Augmented Warriors
Shield -464 Armor -692 Structure -1040
2196 total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.
Republic Fleet Warriors
Shield -616 Armor -920 Structure-576
2112 Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds.
Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.
He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).
You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).
Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.
I like the concept. I'm a bit afraid the weapon system on the worm itself maybe too weak.
I want to try out the ship, as they made it a bit of a brawler, but dunno about the 2 launchers vs 3.
Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
228
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:52:00 -
[414] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:another version for the guristas:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile max velocity
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
the ship gets at full lvl V skills a 100% of damage for drones and a 100% bonus to missiles, but sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus. as compensation the ship gets a buffer in line with the rattlesnake, i mean, gets large buffer for its ship class, in this case a more than 1000 shield HP
For the love of Cerberus - the guardian of my soul, stop shitposting loadouts. Step away from the keyboard for an hour or twelve.
|
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
458
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:53:00 -
[415] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Nyancat Audeles wrote:NinjaStyle wrote:the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways. I heard about this module called a "MWD"... You should check it out. You know, before you make baseless assumptions. On another note, the Dramiel could use a buff. It's not nearly as good any more... That changes nothing about what he said. Cruor doesnt have the range on guns and neither neuts/nos to use its web bonus. Want to deal 100 scorch dps with pulses - you have to go into scram range. Want to neut your target so you actually can break its tank with 100dps - you have to go DEEP inside scram range. And only thing that awaits you there is being scrammed and counterwebbed and losing any mobility advantage you had (with 90% web). The only ships it can help you with are nano kiters - that will damp you to oblivion anyway.
Thats why having bonused neut drones would be awesome :D |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
342
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:57:00 -
[416] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:another version for the guristas:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile max velocity
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
the ship gets at full lvl V skills a 100% of damage for drones and a 100% bonus to missiles, but sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus. as compensation the ship gets a buffer in line with the rattlesnake, i mean, gets large buffer for its ship class, in this case a more than 1000 shield HP
Uh. I think that is a little too much damage. How about making the Caldari bonus the damage bonus and the role bonus a velocity a to missiles and drones.
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:57:00 -
[417] - Quote
no im not gonna stop, those bonuses proposed for the guristas and the sanshas are awful, it will make them even less used than before....... |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1746
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:58:00 -
[418] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:To anybody complaining about the Worm.
Stop.
Full stop.
Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:
Augmented Warriors
Shield -464 Armor -692 Structure -1040
2196 total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.
Republic Fleet Warriors
Shield -616 Armor -920 Structure-576
2112 Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds.
Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.
He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).
You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).
Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.
EDIT: Drone Durability 5 will raise those totals by about 500 each, Damage totals will also go up 25% more as well
Cant argue with that... though my problem is with the missile bonus. .. what do you think about it?
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux Phobia.
846
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:59:00 -
[419] - Quote
I like most of these changes. The AB bonus on the Succubus and NOS bonus on the Cruor are unique and useful, but I have my doubts regarding the Worm (and other Guristas ship) bonuses. The Kinetic/Therm missile damage bonus is downright bad and simply pidgeonholes it into using those two damage types with any effect. The 2 drone idea is interesting, but is a little odd to me. I'm my opinion, the Worm would be better served with 4 Launchers, a damage application bonus, 1 less low, and then the drones as you suggested. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:59:00 -
[420] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:another version for the guristas:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile max velocity
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
the ship gets at full lvl V skills a 100% of damage for drones and a 100% bonus to missiles, but sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus. as compensation the ship gets a buffer in line with the rattlesnake, i mean, gets large buffer for its ship class, in this case a more than 1000 shield HP Uh. I think that is a little too much damage. How about making the Caldari bonus the damage bonus and the role bonus a velocity a to missiles and drones.
something like this?
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drones, rocket and light missile damage
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile max velocity
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40 |
|
Majszi
Hymnum dicamus Domino III Corp. pwn-O-graphy
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:59:00 -
[421] - Quote
amazing game content guys again, amazing! i cant wait for it !!4
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1101
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 20:59:00 -
[422] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:
Cant argue with that... though my problem is with the missile bonus. .. what do you think about it?
Its an extra chunk of damage, which I think some people will choose to forgo for neuts. Its a good fitting decision. |
Hoshi Sorano
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:03:00 -
[423] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
I'm sorry, but what exactly is the precedent/justification for tying a missile bonus to a Gallente ship skill?!? Maybe I'm just missing something huge, but the only Gallente ship I'm aware of that boasts any kind of missile bonus is the stealth bomber (for obvious reasons, it has to be). This just smells like a "we're changing the stats around to make them fit; who cares if they make any sense" kind of change. |
woodall
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:03:00 -
[424] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:another version for the guristas:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile max velocity
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
the ship gets at full lvl V skills a 100% of damage for drones and a 100% bonus to missiles, but sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus. as compensation the ship gets a buffer in line with the rattlesnake, i mean, gets large buffer for its ship class, in this case a more than 1000 shield HP
You should probably run the numbers for this man. 100% damage bonus to a full set of lights will result in 200 dps on just the drones, then add in 2 launchers with a 50% damage bonus and they add in another 60 or so dps. Youre now doing 260 dps without any damage mods at all which is roughly the same as a glass cannon enyo fit. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2304
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:05:00 -
[425] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:To anybody complaining about the Worm.
Stop.
Full stop.
Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:
Augmented Warriors
Shield -464 Armor -692 Structure -1040
2196 total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.
Republic Fleet Warriors
Shield -616 Armor -920 Structure-576
2112 Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds.
Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.
He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).
You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).
Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.
EDIT: Drone Durability 5 will raise those totals by about 500 each, Damage totals will also go up 25% more as well Cant argue with that... though my problem is with the missile bonus. .. what do you think about it?
I have to admit im a bit meh about it only being missiles because I hate light missiles and think they're a bit overpowered on the tracking disruptor fit or damp fit condors in lowsec, and would like to see it apply to rockets as well so that when they finally get around to obliterating the light missile the ship doesn't suffer too much but with drones like that and its natural tankiness I'm willing to overlook it. With a NOS fit to run a local rep its got some serious potential to give ships a headache.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
33
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:07:00 -
[426] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: ... note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress) ...
Secondary capacitor store, with a one-way feed to the main store, allows Energy Vampires to drain target till it is dry |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1101
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:08:00 -
[427] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: would like to see it apply to rockets as well .
It does apply to rockets |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:09:00 -
[428] - Quote
Sanshas need a bonus that makes them unique but an AB bonus is strange for a caldari bonus, so its either an EWAR bonus or a shield related one.......
same for the Guristas, that kinetic/thermal bonus is just bad, it needs to be a real gallente related bonus, and the best approach should be a drone related bonus.......
the problem is that we need a drone bonus that hasnt been covered, but we cannot leave the missile bonuses uncovered |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:11:00 -
[429] - Quote
There is nothing wrong about the proposed bonus to worm drones. It will make for an interesting alternative to other drone ships. The drones will be less susceptible to smartbombs, but with only two it may open them up to being targeted for Ewar, especially if that trend continues up to the battleship level, where the sentries will have tanks that are not insignificant. I also have some bizarre thoughts of remote tracking links and such from fleetmates to make up for the omni nerf...
I dont care for the missle bonus staying under the Gallente tag. It just feels wrong to me |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:12:00 -
[430] - Quote
another:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone, rocket and light missile max velocity
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still |
|
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
289
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:12:00 -
[431] - Quote
IMHO +10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness per level is too good. You should definitely consider reducing it to 5%, or ad least 7,5%. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
519
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:14:00 -
[432] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:with only two it may open them up to being targeted for Ewar
which is exactly what drone ships are supposed to not get done by. if not ewar, then actually kiting the drones within web range could be a thing. it's dumb, and I don't get the point in it at all. it seems to be just there to give the ship 'flavour' or something. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1126
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:14:00 -
[433] - Quote
Looks good all around. +1 |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
342
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:14:00 -
[434] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:another version for the guristas:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile max velocity
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
the ship gets at full lvl V skills a 100% of damage for drones and a 100% bonus to missiles, but sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus. as compensation the ship gets a buffer in line with the rattlesnake, i mean, gets large buffer for its ship class, in this case a more than 1000 shield HP Uh. I think that is a little too much damage. How about making the Caldari bonus the damage bonus and the role bonus a velocity a to missiles and drones. something like this? WORM Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drones, rocket and light missile damageCaldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to all shield resistancesRole Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile max velocity
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
The double damage and resists bonus is a bit too much too. I was thinking something like:
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile damage
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile max velocity
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:16:00 -
[435] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:
The double damage and resists bonus is a bit too much too. I was thinking something like:
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile damage
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile max velocity
hmmmmmm it makes sense yes, then we can put the 4% shield resistance bonus to the sanshas |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:19:00 -
[436] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 5% drone tracking and velocity to light combat drones (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity) 100% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Slot layout: 2H (-1) , 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(-10) / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
the gallente bonus will be needed for ogres/hammerheads on rattlesnake/gila .. and its thematic with gallente .. the damage ratio will be more 60/40 i think towards drones but at least the missile damage is useful now and drone ships always has -1 slot these should be no different Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Lugalzagezi666
218
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:21:00 -
[437] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: You can push a cruor to 17km optimal pretty easily, with 150 dps (and you also have 2 drones now). And you wont even need a FN web to do this.
Sure, with overheat and dc tank. Gz, you have now 100m ship that is worse than retri or slicer, but thanks to the web it can at least run from them. And you may as well ditch that neut/nos bonus completely, because any time you are in range to use it, you are webbed, scrammed and dying. Not that you will have cpu to actually fit that neuts/nos in such gank setup (why does ccp keeps giving laser frigs these "troll" highslots...).
Anyway, be careful with it in current meta, because afaik 17k is also range of skirmish boosted t2 web.
|
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
109
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:24:00 -
[438] - Quote
new sansha concept is an abortion without agility...otherwise its a slow drag racer with no ability to apply damage. Straight line flying hooray! No tank bonus...so def not meant for brawling. If you shield extend it the sig will blow up anyhow...
*jackiechandoesntevenknow.jpg*
I'll give it a try but if I die because of webs I blame CCP Rise.
Cruor: say hello to a sentinel that webs you instead of TD. Worm: DPS machine Daredevil: same as it ever was Dramiel: Already had the nerf bat hit it upside the head and is fine.
So cruisers:
My predictions:
Phantasm: similar treatment to succubus AB bonus, move one utility high to low slots...tweak other attributes meaninglessly except base speed which should get a boost.
What should be done in adddition? 4th Turrret hard point and the grid to fit it and much...much more cap (Slot layout 5/6/4)+1 over all slots. One would hope a special bonus like the ashimmu will get with nos's for the phantasm's agility so the AB is useful rather than being an easier to fit 100MN. I want to be able to urn you bastards!
Ashimmu: a loki but cheaper (not by much) and it can nos/neut you efficiently. I like it, and yet...why do we need more long webs I question...it feels like a ubiquitous thing now and sansha are just getting fecal matter dumped on them by other factions.
Vigilant: still gonna eat face and take names...amazing tactical fleet webifier.
Cynabal: no idea...maybe give it slightly better capacitor while hitting its agility with a cricket bat to the knee - it should not be out pacing interceptors nor having the ability to hit warp so fast. Just broken as all heck.
BS's:
Nightmare: anything I can do machariel can do better - why bother
Bhaalgorn: Still gonna be the same old monster
Vindicator: Same with minor adjustments
Rattler: Improved drone efficiency will make remote repping your drones in pve very easy and convenient. Damage increase for pvp will make it an interesting ship to try out...but as bait or ambush ship it should do well.
Mach: What they'll do: agility nerf (maybe)
What I want: adjust model so its not an OP bumping machine with stupid high agility. Top speed is ok...just slow that acceleration down. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2027
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:24:00 -
[439] - Quote
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It looks so ******* cool with the oil slick look BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:24:00 -
[440] - Quote
There are some really terrible ideas about the worm here, you should all be ashamed because it shows that you haven't actually done any math at all.
Most of what you're all proposing is actually worse and weaker than what Rise has listed.
Also all the daredevil nasayers: Leave it alone. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1102
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:26:00 -
[441] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Michael Harari wrote: You can push a cruor to 17km optimal pretty easily, with 150 dps (and you also have 2 drones now). And you wont even need a FN web to do this.
Sure, with overheat and dc tank. Gz, you have now 100m ship that is worse than retri or slicer, but thanks to the web it can at least run from them. And you may as well ditch that neut/nos bonus completely, because any time you are in range to use it, you are webbed, scrammed and dying. Not that you will have cpu to actually fit that neuts/nos in such gank setup (why does ccp keeps giving laser frigs these "troll" highslots...). Anyway, be careful with it in current meta, because afaik 17k is also range of skirmish boosted t2 web.
Thats unheated. Also, with drones it gets another 40 dps.
If you do get scrammed, you can empty the cap of most frigates in 5-10s.
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:26:00 -
[442] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Also all the daredevil nasayers: Leave it alone.
why so bad |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:28:00 -
[443] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Also all the daredevil nasayers: Leave it alone.
why so bad
dont be scared of it, its got like, 10 hit points, just break its glass jaw.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1016
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:29:00 -
[444] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:
- I really don't get the Guristas theme change: OK, sure, the ships will do as much damage using two drones as an un-bonused ship would do with six, but you're still doing (and absorbing!) LESS damage at the end of the day than a bonused drone boat does with five drones
A bonused ship does 7.5 effective drones worth of effective damage and has the same in hitpoints. The revised worm does 8 effective drones worth while increasing the survivability of individual drones even more significantly. |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:30:00 -
[445] - Quote
While the setup with the Worm is kind of weird, I can still get behind it, even though I would have just preferred going with the normal dmg/hp/tracking bonuses. The buff in fitting is also VERY nice, to be clear; good on that, and continue it with the Gila when that gets worked on. It would be nice to see an addition of a launcher slot, since it's stil behind the kessie in missile damage output. perhaps that and a fast firing rate would work better?
To clarify, I DO like what you're trying to do with the blood raider boats, but there is a severe issue that needs to be raised: nos range. The idea with switching to special nos is brilliant; it negates the need for a cap booster, but if you're going to focus on web range, you should also pull nos range out a bit, which would be a fairly difficult thing to do considering the inherent number of bonuses and how that limits. My recommendation? keep the old web bonus for the cruor, but keep the nos bonus; the Ashimmu looks like it'd be good with this considering it doesn't have similar slot limitations and nos range on it should be fine at 12km, which is past scram range. I am pleased with how you're looking to get it set up.
What are you doing with sansha? Are you trying to focus on oversized AB? I mean, I'm not exactly complaining, it's an interesting idea, but you would be much better served by swapping that out for an optimal range range bonus, and keeping them a strictly laser-focused weapon platform. Dropping a high for a low is very nice, and I approve of how that will improve the fitting, but I would like to make an interesting proposition: Go both slots. Part of sansha lore is equal viability with armor or shield tanking, so if you avoid having any utility slots and focusing on strictly ship performance over utility, you can have a very strong and efficient line of laser platforms, which would be more reflective of Sansha being only surpassed by the Jove in regards to technological progress.
Not touching the DD is good; serpentis are in a VERY good spot right now, and the webs aren't really overpowered; you're just filling the same role as you do with the guns with grouping their effectiveness; 1 web instead of two needed.
I had an idea for angels that might be an interesting and effective way to separate them from minmatar. Try going with a 5% tracking speed bonus across the board for each of the ships effectively, but upping the falloff to 15 or even 20%, depending on where the line gets drawn at overpowered. I do think they should also get a larger increase in cap regen speed, especially the Cynabal since they're so speed-focused, easier cap stability with mwd should be a must. I think range projection is a great idea to go with, and seeing the dram back on top as kite king would be a welcome sight in pvp circles, and you shouldn't draw too much ire with the cruor balancing it. ;) |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:30:00 -
[446] - Quote
please get rid of the kin/thermal bonus, even the kinetic bonus for caldari hulls is awful........ |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:30:00 -
[447] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Also all the daredevil nasayers: Leave it alone.
why so bad dont be scared of it, its got like, 10 hit points, just break its glass jaw.
can't, I'm 90% webbed at 18km and dying to 150mm railguns and/or blap dreads. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:33:00 -
[448] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:34:00 -
[449] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Also all the daredevil nasayers: Leave it alone.
why so bad dont be scared of it, its got like, 10 hit points, just break its glass jaw. can't, I'm 90% webbed at 18km and dying to 150mm railguns and/or blap dreads.
Fly a sentinel
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:35:00 -
[450] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing....
This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
|
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
242
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:39:00 -
[451] - Quote
In the camp of 'Need to see the cruisers and BS before being able to have much of an opinion.'
Changes are interesting, but need to see who they translate up. The Law is a point of View |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1016
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:39:00 -
[452] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:40:00 -
[453] - Quote
obligue me, im gonna keep posting until there's a general concensus, but those **** bonuses in the OP need to be taken off |
Mardus Rial
Ireco Industries Zombie Pony Express
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:40:00 -
[454] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:
- I really don't get the Guristas theme change: OK, sure, the ships will do as much damage using two drones as an un-bonused ship would do with six, but you're still doing (and absorbing!) LESS damage at the end of the day than a bonused drone boat does with five drones
A bonused ship does 7.5 effective drones worth of effective damage and has the same in hitpoints. The revised worm does 8 effective drones worth while increasing the survivability of individual drones even more significantly.
Yeah, but the problem comes when somebody targets one of your drones and starts to kill it- you lose half of your DPS. Having to pull drones or get drones popped is already super annoying for Drone pilots, this idea will make that even worse- basically, this idea is a huge back-handed nerf to ships that just needed a little touch up to keep them on par with Gallente drone ships. (Well, the Worm needed a little more than Gila or Rattler do...either way, this totally does not seem like the way to go.) |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:41:00 -
[455] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares.
that could be compensated by increasing the dronebay to 25/50, allows for an aditional flight of light drones, and some other nasty things |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1103
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:41:00 -
[456] - Quote
Mardus Rial wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:
- I really don't get the Guristas theme change: OK, sure, the ships will do as much damage using two drones as an un-bonused ship would do with six, but you're still doing (and absorbing!) LESS damage at the end of the day than a bonused drone boat does with five drones
A bonused ship does 7.5 effective drones worth of effective damage and has the same in hitpoints. The revised worm does 8 effective drones worth while increasing the survivability of individual drones even more significantly. Yeah, but the problem comes when somebody targets one of your drones and starts to kill it- you lose half of your DPS. Having to pull drones or get drones popped is already super annoying for Drone pilots, this idea will make that even worse- basically, this idea is a huge back-handed nerf to ships that just needed a little touch up to keep them on par with Gallente drone ships. (Well, the Worm needed a little more than Gila or Rattler do...either way, this totally does not seem like the way to go.)
It takes them nearly as long to kill that one drone as it would take to kill an entire flight right now. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:43:00 -
[457] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares.
No its not, the drones in the OP hit harder, and have more hit points, yours does absolutely nothing better in any regard except your drones are faster, at which point who cares - WOO LOOK AT ME MAH MY DRONES GO FAST.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1016
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:44:00 -
[458] - Quote
Mardus Rial wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:
- I really don't get the Guristas theme change: OK, sure, the ships will do as much damage using two drones as an un-bonused ship would do with six, but you're still doing (and absorbing!) LESS damage at the end of the day than a bonused drone boat does with five drones
A bonused ship does 7.5 effective drones worth of effective damage and has the same in hitpoints. The revised worm does 8 effective drones worth while increasing the survivability of individual drones even more significantly. Yeah, but the problem comes when somebody targets one of your drones and starts to kill it- you lose half of your DPS. Having to pull drones or get drones popped is already super annoying for Drone pilots, this idea will make that even worse- basically, this idea is a huge back-handed nerf to ships that just needed a little touch up to keep them on par with Gallente drone ships. (Well, the Worm needed a little more than Gila or Rattler do...either way, this totally does not seem like the way to go.) I'm not terribly PvP experienced so I can't say if a drone with 400% HP vs 150% has the survivability to not need immediate recall, but if it doesn't, it means more flexibility before a recall becomes necessary. With lights I doubt the difference will be terribly significant at times, but as you translate to large drones I'd imagine the help to be significant. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:45:00 -
[459] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares. No its not, the drones in the OP hit harder, and have more hit points, yours does absolutely nothing better in any regard except your drones are faster, at which point who cares - WOO LOOK AT ME MAH MY DRONES GO FAST.
you gotta be kidding, 300% damage and hitpoints is absurd, and that for compensating with a garbage kin/therm bonus for missiles along with a nerf to its bandwidth, ***** please..... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1016
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:45:00 -
[460] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares. No its not, the drones in the OP hit harder, and have more hit points, yours does absolutely nothing better in any regard except your drones are faster, at which point who cares - WOO LOOK AT ME MAH MY DRONES GO FAST. 1st, not my suggestion 2nd, 10 effective drones > 8 (Note the role bonus) |
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:47:00 -
[461] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares. No its not, the drones in the OP hit harder, and have more hit points, yours does absolutely nothing better in any regard except your drones are faster, at which point who cares - WOO LOOK AT ME MAH MY DRONES GO FAST. you gotta be kidding, 300% damage and hitpoints is absurd, and that for compensating with a garbage kin/therm bonus for missiles along with a nerf to its bandwidth, ***** please.....
I have come to the conclusion that you know nothing jon snow
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
342
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:49:00 -
[462] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone, rocket and light missile damage
dronebay is 25/25 still
no limitations in its dronebay no limitations in the drone type, it should be a general thing.... This is literal garbage compared to whats proposed, just stop Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares. No its not, the drones in the OP hit harder, and have more hit points, yours does absolutely nothing better in any regard except your drones are faster, at which point who cares - WOO LOOK AT ME MAH MY DRONES GO FAST. Mardus Rial wrote:
Yeah, but the problem comes when somebody targets one of your drones and starts to kill it- you lose half of your DPS. Having to pull drones or get drones popped is already super annoying for Drone pilots, this idea will make that even worse- basically, this idea is a huge back-handed nerf to ships that just needed a little touch up to keep them on par with Gallente drone ships. (Well, the Worm needed a little more than Gila or Rattler do...either way, this totally does not seem like the way to go.)
Yea, good luck killing a 2500-2700 hp light drone in a fight with the ship thats trying to kill you, oh, and after you kill that one, he's got 4 more for you to kill, the whole time he's chewing on you. I wish you luck. You're going to need it.
I will take a speed bonus to drones on a frigate over extra damage any day.
|
Mardus Rial
Ireco Industries Zombie Pony Express
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:50:00 -
[463] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Mardus Rial wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:
- I really don't get the Guristas theme change: OK, sure, the ships will do as much damage using two drones as an un-bonused ship would do with six, but you're still doing (and absorbing!) LESS damage at the end of the day than a bonused drone boat does with five drones
A bonused ship does 7.5 effective drones worth of effective damage and has the same in hitpoints. The revised worm does 8 effective drones worth while increasing the survivability of individual drones even more significantly. Yeah, but the problem comes when somebody targets one of your drones and starts to kill it- you lose half of your DPS. Having to pull drones or get drones popped is already super annoying for Drone pilots, this idea will make that even worse- basically, this idea is a huge back-handed nerf to ships that just needed a little touch up to keep them on par with Gallente drone ships. (Well, the Worm needed a little more than Gila or Rattler do...either way, this totally does not seem like the way to go.) It takes them nearly as long to kill that one drone as it would take to kill an entire flight right now. And until its dead, its going full dps, and you have another 3 spares.
Which isn't long enough, lol. Another problem with the "less but more powerful drones" theory is that if you are missing your target at all your DPS is going to go out the window.
The "Less drones with more (and by more, we mean the same) power" theory is a total back-handed nerf....and really startling to read after the Gallente drone boats just got such an awesome lift. If they wan't to give the Guristas boats something new that Gallente ships don't have, then give them an outright HP bonus or something. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1103
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:52:00 -
[464] - Quote
Mardus Rial wrote: Which isn't long enough, lol. Another problem with the "less but more powerful drones" theory is that if you are missing your target at all your DPS is going to go out the window.
Yes, missing your target makes your dps go down. I dont see how that is different from now. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:52:00 -
[465] - Quote
its very simple:
your drones will have 50% better tracking and 50% extra speed
you will have 10 drones basically
you punch an extra with the power of 4 launchers and not limited to two damage types only
if the dronebay is increased to be 25/50 you have an extra flight of lights in case you loose the others....
the tradeoff here is that drones will get less HP i can change that too with the role bonus |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:53:00 -
[466] - Quote
here:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking, optimal and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone damage and hitpoints, rocket and light missile damage
bandwitdth and bay are 25/50 |
woodall
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:55:00 -
[467] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:its very simple:
your drones will have 50% better tracking and 50% extra speed
you will have 10 drones basically
you punch an extra with the power of 4 launchers and not limited to two damage types only
if the dronebay is increased to be 25/50 you have an extra flight of lights in case you loose the others....
the tradeoff here is that drones will get less HP i can change that too with the role bonus
You are literally insane. You seem to think that its balanced having a frig do just short of 300 dps with no damage mods whatsoever (an enyo can only achieve that with void fitted and a magstab). not only do you have that much dps, but you want a huge bonus to the damage application of 2/3's of it on top. How on earth can you think that is balanced.
|
Victoria Thorne
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:56:00 -
[468] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:here:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone damage and hitpoints, rocket and light missile damage
bandwitdth and bay are 25/50
So... a 400 DPS tanky frigate. Not balanced. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:57:00 -
[469] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:[
I will take a speed bonus to drones on a frigate over extra damage any day.
Ok so real talk without being insulting but do you know why i hate drone speed bonuses? Because they're honestly right next to useless because of basic drone behavior.
The drone MWD's hellafast after its target right? Catching most things easy (Warriors already do, most people like these bonuses so they can have Hobs act like Warriors) but once the stupid drone catches up and starts shooting ....it stops mwding.
So theres this permanent cycle of speed---> coast--->speed ---->coast. It generally means that the damn drone is firing in falloff for almost every shot except for the ones its taking at mwd speed, and those have tracking issues so the damage you get is slightly less than you expect.
With an outright drone damage bonus your target may outrun your drones but the chances of him doing that in an orbit where he's applying damage to you are fairly low, or rather the damage he's applying to you will be low since he'll have to be moving fairly fast to outrun something like a warrior (even a hobgoblin does 4200 m/s with skills, warriors do 6300)
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:57:00 -
[470] - Quote
woodall wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:its very simple:
your drones will have 50% better tracking and 50% extra speed
you will have 10 drones basically
you punch an extra with the power of 4 launchers and not limited to two damage types only
if the dronebay is increased to be 25/50 you have an extra flight of lights in case you loose the others....
the tradeoff here is that drones will get less HP i can change that too with the role bonus You are literally insane. You seem to think that its balanced having a frig do just short of 300 dps with no damage mods whatsoever (an enyo can only achieve that with void fitted and a magstab). not only do you have that much dps, but you want a huge bonus to the damage application of 2/3's of it on top. How on earth can you think that is balanced.
oh but its not insane to think in drones with 3 times their damage and HP.....that's not insane..... |
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:58:00 -
[471] - Quote
Victoria Thorne wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:here:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone damage and hitpoints, rocket and light missile damage
bandwitdth and bay are 25/50 So... a 400 DPS tanky frigate. Not balanced.
i can nerf the role bonus then to 50% |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
342
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:58:00 -
[472] - Quote
woodall wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:its very simple:
your drones will have 50% better tracking and 50% extra speed
you will have 10 drones basically
you punch an extra with the power of 4 launchers and not limited to two damage types only
if the dronebay is increased to be 25/50 you have an extra flight of lights in case you loose the others....
the tradeoff here is that drones will get less HP i can change that too with the role bonus You are literally insane. You seem to think that its balanced having a frig do just short of 300 dps with no damage mods whatsoever (an enyo can only achieve that with void fitted and a magstab). not only do you have that much dps, but you want a huge bonus to the damage application of 2/3's of it on top. How on earth can you think that is balanced.
To top it off he wants it to have a tank bonus. Either it has a double damage bonus or it has a damage bonus and a tank bonus. Having a double damage bonus and a tank bonus will be OP. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1103
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 21:59:00 -
[473] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Victoria Thorne wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:here:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone damage and hitpoints, rocket and light missile damage
bandwitdth and bay are 25/50 So... a 400 DPS tanky frigate. Not balanced. i can nerf the role bonus then to 50%
You are just randomly spitting out numbers. Just stop. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:00:00 -
[474] - Quote
here:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% to drone damage and hitpoints, rocket and light missile damage
bandwitdth and bay are 25/50
enough? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:01:00 -
[475] - Quote
try using 8km/s warriors vs a linked snaked kiting frigate. your drones are capable of going far faster than the target, but you'll have difficulty breaking the recharge on their mse. this is a problem with drones, and CCP are unwilling to fix it because nobody cares about it except me. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:05:00 -
[476] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:try using 8km/s warriors vs a linked snaked kiting frigate. your drones are capable of going far faster than the target, but you'll have difficulty breaking the recharge on their mse. this is a problem with drones, and CCP are unwilling to fix it because nobody cares about it except me.
Exactly what I'm talking about.
Speed doesn't help when the drone itself is mentally handicapped.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Lusian
Kenshin. Against ALL Authorities
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:06:00 -
[477] - Quote
For crying out loud CCP. Why don't you make new ship designs and keep the old ones. The new ship designed will have all the bonus's the older ships should need.
It would be a lot easier for you guys to throw new ship designs in instead of messing around with the old stuff. In the military new hardware and tech are made all the time. Why can't we do the same in eve?
It is not going to hurt the game to say ok we have ships that are not what they used to be but some layers still like to use them. The new ship designs with the better stats the older ships should have is not a bad thing. It is ok to keep the old stuff in while the new stuff does it's thing.
In reality we make better and newer vehicles, better planes. Things are constantly being replaced by new stuff because it is better. It is ok to put new ships in instead of trying to re balance something that is not going to keep up. Try it some time.
Make a patch that adds new ships with the specks that the older pout dated ships should have been. Or better even. The
Try it. |
Anaphylacti
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
18
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:10:00 -
[478] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.
Minmattar/Caldari cruiser and battleship with a bonus to missile reload speed or missile bay ammo capacity |
Dark'Rai
Angelic Eclipse.
3
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:12:00 -
[479] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:because that's what ISIS says .... shield tanked and masters of projectiles
ISIS also says that to be mastered in a Vangel you require max Medium Energy Turrets. Yea ISIS great job m8. But we all know that the Vangel is a turret ship right?
|
woodall
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:15:00 -
[480] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:here:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% to drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to al shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% to drone damage and hitpoints, rocket and light missile damage
bandwitdth and bay are 25/50
enough?
Please, Im trying to not be too nasty here but just stop please. I dont think you are actually doing the numbers behind your claims so ill take the liberty of doing them for you. A set of hobs with a 50% damage bonus will do 150 dps which by itself is pretty respectable for a frig. then to add onto that you wish to increase the dps by a further 50-60 or so from missile dps. so now you are equalling the dps of a daredevil/enyo. Then in even more addition to that, you want to have a tank bonus AND a large damage application bonus. You cant get everything at once mate, you have to make a compromise.
I think the changes proposed by rise are interesting, I wont make a definitive stance as of yet. But even as it has been stated I think it might be doing a bit too much dps.
|
|
Leafar Nightfall
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:15:00 -
[481] - Quote
I've taken a look at the Gila and one thing I noticed is that it is one of the few cruisers that can field large drones/sentry turrets, which is kind of "oversized" drones for its hull
That being said, none of the frigates can do that (field of mediums), so maybe the Gallente Frigate bonus could be a 5Mbits/s per level. That way you'd be able to field 5 Hammerheads at Gallente Frigate V, which is EXACLTY the same dps of "effective" 8 hobgoblins (158dps without mods). Of course, there are the differences in tracking and so on, but I think that would be fun. That would also give webs a good synergy since that would help both the missiles and the drones to apply DPS.
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 5Mbit/s Drone Bandwidth (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity
Edit: 5 medium drones would also not screw up the drone assist mechanics as some people have mentioned |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:16:00 -
[482] - Quote
very well then, but someone propose a better set of bonuses instead of that garbage.......300% damage and hitpoints its not worth the change if the ship will be limited to two damage types in missiles and with a nerfed bandwidth |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:18:00 -
[483] - Quote
Leafar Nightfall wrote:I've taken a look at the Gila and one thing I noticed is that it is one of the few cruisers that can field large drones/sentry turrets, which is kind of "oversized" drones for its hull
That being said, none of the frigates can do that (field of mediums), so maybe the Gallente Frigate bonus could be a 5Mbits/s per level. That way you'd be able to field 5 Hammerheads at Gallente Frigate V, which is EXACLTY the same dps of "effective" 8 hobgoblins (158dps without mods). Of course, there are the differences in tracking and so on, but I think that would be fun. That would also give webs a good synergy since that would help both the missiles and the drones to apply DPS.
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 5Mbit/s Drone Bandwidth (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity
a very interesting proposition.......but how about doubling the bandwidth directly and adding a tracking and speed bonus?, this could help the medium drones to chase and hit the target better...
i mean:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity
drone bandwidth/dronebay = 50/50
then the ship can field 5 lights or 5 meds, and can have the whole flight of meds or 2 flights of lights |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
429
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:20:00 -
[484] - Quote
I feel like I'm the only one who can fathom the Rattlesnake bonus only applying to sentries and heavies, and the gila only applying to mediums. Petty easy solution, considering turrets and missiles already have their bonuses restricted to a specific weapon size. |
Rena Senn
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
87
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:21:00 -
[485] - Quote
Looking ahead, if total drone storage gets lowered on certain Guristas ships, how will the system handle those out in space that end up with an overloaded drone bay? |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
57
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:22:00 -
[486] - Quote
One observation about the Vindicator, I have yet to make an Amarr fit that beats it on Singularity. Lets be honest its bonus to hybrid turrets is actually only a bonus to blasters, because that's what the web bonus is most useful for. So either its just me (totally possible, I haven't tried a billion fits against the vindi, more like 5), or that web+damage bonus double-jab always turns into a knockout. Because it can hold the target down, get into optimal on its shotguns and then unleash hell, all while the tied down ships can't do anything against it (a bhaal with 4 turrets and 3 neuts can't take the vindi, because the vindi can get of several salvos for every cap charge and the webs take almost no cap to cycle so timing is easy). So I would like the damage bonus to be scaled back just a tiny bit. So that other pirate ships when going head to head against the vindi, can actually have a small chance of getting through the armor in time. Btw, why on earth does the vindi have two launcher slots? And why on earth does the bhaal has turret slots at all when its purpose is neuting? All the other pirate battleships does DPS WAAY better than the bhaal, so might as well remove the dps from the bhaal. No one ever fields a bhaal with anything else than neuts. If you want it to have DPS at all give the bhaal a 700% damage bonus and have 1 turret slot, then a bhaal with dps would be fielded.
Please add some NEW ships also, I'm dying for an abaddon-hull pirate ship that is focused on raw beam weapon melting power (as opposed to the vindi blaster melting power). I suggest range penalty with extreme tracking bonus, and damage multiplier bonus, and 4 turrets with 100% damage bonus instead of a cap usage bonus. Give it 4 high slots, 5 mids and 8 lows, with 800 cargo space (for cap charges, all the cap charges in the universe!). |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:23:00 -
[487] - Quote
Leafar Nightfall wrote:I've taken a look at the Gila and one thing I noticed is that it is one of the few cruisers that can field large drones/sentry turrets, which is kind of "oversized" drones for its hull
That being said, none of the frigates can do that (field of mediums), so maybe the Gallente Frigate bonus could be a 5Mbits/s per level. That way you'd be able to field 5 Hammerheads at Gallente Frigate V, which is EXACLTY the same dps of "effective" 8 hobgoblins (158dps without mods). Of course, there are the differences in tracking and so on, but I think that would be fun. That would also give webs a good synergy since that would help both the missiles and the drones to apply DPS.
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 5Mbit/s Drone Bandwidth (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity
Edit: 5 medium drones would also not screw up the drone assist mechanics as some people have mentioned
oversized is terrible. the dps you get is appropriate for a brawling cruiser, but you end up with battleship 'application', in drone terms. the actual solution is just bigger damage bonuses on regular drones.
all these medium ships with 75, 100 or 125 bandwidth should just get, say, 15%, 20% and 25% damage per level on 5 mediums. |
Zamyslinski
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:24:00 -
[488] - Quote
bout guristas and this 2 drones thingy... why? |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2305
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:25:00 -
[489] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:very well then, but someone propose a better set of bonuses instead of that garbage.......300% damage and hitpoints its not worth the change if the ship will be limited to two damage types in missiles and with a nerfed bandwidth
Its not though, consider it, you'll be able to apply 2 bonused damage types in missiles, and a 3rd in drones.
So if you were to run Augmented drones (normally this is like a silly thing since they're so expensive but at 3k hp you can actually do that) you have a split damage type there - say kin/explosive for Aug Warriors and then Thermal missles. You will effectively be pumping out 3 damage types, all bonused.
Thats very hard to tank, and its very hard to mitigate.
I'm not understanding what you're not liking about these bonuses, I feel like there's something you're not understanding.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Leafar Nightfall
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:26:00 -
[490] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:
a very interesting proposition.......but how about doubling the bandwidth directly and adding a tracking and speed bonus?, this could help the medium drones to chase and hit the target better...
i mean:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% drone tracking and microwarpdrive speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity
drone bandwidth/dronebay = 50/50
then the ship can field 5 lights or 5 meds, and can have the whole flight of meds or 2 flights of lights
Because the tracking would be the tradeoff for it. If a worm with those bonuses was fit for dps (3x DDA II and a Bay Loading Accelerator Rig II for T2 Rocker launchers), it would have 317 DPS "on paper", which is great DPS specially considering it's range and tank
Since there already is a good bonus to the ship tanking, you can skip a shield module for a Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
|
|
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
90
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:30:00 -
[491] - Quote
Overall, I like the changes to the Worm, and hopefully it'll be a lot more fun to fly. Managing fewer drones with more HP has some advantages/disadvantages. Definitely easier to keep them alive rather than having to recall/swap all the time. But it also makes it possible to EWAR the drones to neutralize the ship's effectiveness easier, since there are less of them. I don't know how viable this actually is, but something I wanted to point out.
CCP Rise wrote: And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places.
I really don't like the pidgeonholing of the damage type for the missiles to Kinetic/Thermal. Missiles aren't blasters, and Guristas aren't Gallente. I would really like to get away from damage specific bonuses for missiles so they can actually use their versatility of being able to change damage types properly. CCP Rise please stop doing this to missile boats, and give the Worm a generic rate of fire or damage bonus. |
CompleteFailure
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
130
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:31:00 -
[492] - Quote
Django Flagg wrote: With the introduction of the Sisters covering Gallente Amarr, we still don't have Minmatar-Caldari skill bonused pirate line.
See Rise's post immediately before yours:
CCP Rise wrote:
We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.
My guess is the missile-based pirate faction he's hinting at here would be Caldari-Minmatar. It ought to be, anyway. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:33:00 -
[493] - Quote
Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).
I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.
Good experiment, let's try it.
I'd like a 3rd launcher on the worm honestly. It's something to consider.
But the way they have the drones setup now? Fine. Don't change it back to its old swarm of 5 weak light drones.
Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:35:00 -
[494] - Quote
Part of it is cutting the drones on field. Leaving it at 5 drones does not do this.
Keep in mind that no other frigate gets a drone damage bonus, and only recently did we see frigates with 5 light drones except for T2 and Pirate. They got weird bay bonus, or that newish drone tracking bonus.
Its also not all about PvP. The boost to drones will also help with the survivability of drones in general. Since the AI change doing PvE with drones has been downright painful. Drones are not ammo, and should not be expended as such. Not only will they have more HP to deal with AI aggroing them constantly, but with the huge boost to their shield HP they will recover faster, and for some playstyles mounting remote repair to help your drones becomes a lot more feasible.
It opens them to more effective direct counters like ewar, but it also restores some rarely considered drawbacks like remote assistance too. I dont know how useful that might be, probably not much, but it opens a door.
It is unlikely that making a bunch of noise and spewing alternate build after alternate build in an ever sillier spiral of goofyness will get you anywhere. Consider why the change is on the table, and argue for or against it with a clear understanding and goal. |
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
232
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:38:00 -
[495] - Quote
Wasn't old nos op as ****? Hence being nerfed Blue-Fire Best Fire |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:39:00 -
[496] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).
I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.
8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2807
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:39:00 -
[497] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:JEFFRAIDER wrote:The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP. This is why I like the idea of the bonus to Neut drones. It removes the aspect of neut range and allows you to kite out to your hearts content.
With 28km web range cold, you can already kite to your heart's content. The bonus to neuting power allows you to cap out a blaster frig pretty much instantly. Oh god. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:39:00 -
[498] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).
I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.
Good experiment, let's try it.
I'd like a 3rd launcher on the worm honestly. It's something to consider.
But the way they have the drones setup now? Fine. Don't change it back to its old swarm of 5 weak light drones.
The only misgiving I have about this is that I spent a week (I think, it was a long, long time ago) training to be able to field that 5th drone, and that training was required for me to be able to do almost anything else with drones. If they are going to move foward with another round of fewer, bigger, better drones then that skill better get a useful bonus put on it. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:40:00 -
[499] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:
I'm not understanding what you're not liking about these bonuses, I feel like there's something you're not understanding.
1. its pigeonholing the ship to use only two missile types, its like if they changed the missiles for hybrids pffff in that case they should add two turret hardpoints or change the bonus for hybrids and make them basically shield versions of gallente droneboats
2. 300% for drones is both absurd in lore explanation and in real aplication, 6 drones compressed in 2 only, bad idea, if you loose those 2 drones you practically loose a bit chunk of your DPS no matter if you can replace them, it makes more sense to have the normal 5 and enhance them all together.
|
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:43:00 -
[500] - Quote
Guys, do you understand that with this change a worm will do 160DPS before DDAs with 2 RF Warriors that with a durability rig (nice 20CPU increase there Rise) will each have 3.3k HP before resists? |
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:44:00 -
[501] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:RF Warriors
why would you do that |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:45:00 -
[502] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).
I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.
8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting.
Eventually drones themselves will get a real balance pass. God knows they have needed it for years, more with recent AI changes, drones on every hull and new drone focused ships being introduced.
If they wind up reducing drone numbers this way they should probably look at making drones actually immune or at least highly resistant to ewar. Its one of their few advantages and drones pay a very steep price for their power in the form of destructibility. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
520
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:47:00 -
[503] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).
I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.
8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting. Eventually drones themselves will get a real balance pass. God knows they have needed it for years, more with recent AI changes, drones on every hull and new drone focused ships being introduced. If they wind up reducing drone numbers this way they should probably look at making drones actually immune or at least highly resistant to ewar. Its one of their few advantages and drones pay a very steep price for their power in the form of destructibility.
it's never going to happen. CCP see that people are using lots of sentries for blobbing, and take it to mean that combat drones are fine. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:48:00 -
[504] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:RF Warriors why would you do that
I already do in an Algos, with great effect I might add. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:49:00 -
[505] - Quote
i'd prefer to see a bonus to field more than 5 drones thant be limited to 2 drones making the work of 4 each one.......and not have a gimped bandwidth and be forced to 2 damage types in missiles just to be efective.... |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2306
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:51:00 -
[506] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:
2. 300% for drones is both absurd in lore explanation and in real aplication, 6 drones compressed in 2 only, bad idea, if you loose those 2 drones you practically loose a bit chunk of your DPS no matter if you can replace them, it makes more sense to have the normal 5 and enhance them all together.
Right so you can only poop out 2 of your 5, and if somebody takes the time to kill one of your two they've chewed through another frigate just getting through one.
Like Frig vs Frig, killing a worms drone is going to be an actual feat of strength, and if its a cruiser you have tackled, forget it he's done he'll never get the damn drones down in time because its a tiny little thing orbiting him taking almost no damage from his cruiser sized weapons.
Now, you would have a thing here if they weren't getting herculean hit points, the change at that point would indeed suck but as each singular drone has more hp than a full flight of lights I think you might be a bit off on this one. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
523
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:51:00 -
[507] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit... CCP Rise wrote: Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints
... which just seems icky. I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics. I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.
I'm pretty sure the main idea was to call your drones *tom&jerry* or *stan&oliver* "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:51:00 -
[508] - Quote
Cruor really need 1 more lows slot, he cant get even some average dps/tank combination. |
Kane Fenris
NWP
143
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:53:00 -
[509] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
the worm still sucks !!!!!!!!11 |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:54:00 -
[510] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).
I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.
8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting. Eventually drones themselves will get a real balance pass. God knows they have needed it for years, more with recent AI changes, drones on every hull and new drone focused ships being introduced. If they wind up reducing drone numbers this way they should probably look at making drones actually immune or at least highly resistant to ewar. Its one of their few advantages and drones pay a very steep price for their power in the form of destructibility. it's never going to happen. CCP see that people are using lots of sentries for blobbing, and take it to mean that combat drones are fine.
Yes, but part of why its effective is because using ewar on drones does not get you very far. It takes 6 times the effort to neuter a drone ship completely compared to a turret ship. Drones pay a high price for this, and diluting it by half will require a serious look at drones going foward. Right now its just one ship line, no need to panic... But its something to watch for given the lack of attention drones have gotten over the years.
|
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1016
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:56:00 -
[511] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Worms fine with the new drone changes. Actually good with how it will fly (why have 5 weak drones when you can have two mega drones).
I don't quite get the fixation with having to have 5 drones when these superior drones will out damage, out tank, and outperform the old 5.
8 effective drones in the form of 2 drones won't outdamage 8 effective drones in the form of 5 drones. they will probably get webbed and kited though, which should be interesting. 8 effective drones in the form of 2 does out damage 7.5 in the form of 5. Both are better than the 5 effective in the form of 5 we have now. |
Lusian
Kenshin. Against ALL Authorities
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:57:00 -
[512] - Quote
Just make new ships and with the better stats. Please. Make things easier on yourselves CCP. Make the new ships look good too. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
201
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:58:00 -
[513] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:... But its something to watch for given the lack of attention drones have gotten over the years.
Ha!
Drones used to be the first real avoxerz in the game! signature |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:59:00 -
[514] - Quote
Lusian wrote:Just make new ships and with the better stats. Please. Make things easier on yourselves CCP. Make the new ships look good too. Making new ships is far from easy. Tweaking stats in the code for existing ones is much easier. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
523
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 22:59:00 -
[515] - Quote
I admire the changes for the most part, will surely be nice to see the level shifting a little.
Dramiel will be the new trashcan, cruors will be interesting - but with those bonuses, looks more like a ship that will do fine catching nanoships and killing laser/hybridboats, but also doesn't look like it would stand a chance against projectiles/missiles. It looks very binary.
Worm looks awesome, I'm a fan of efficient slots/mods/drones. Since that also looks like 220dps+ on a kitingfit, +1. Succubus looks beasty, if it stays that way, looks barely defeatable ina high-class wolf-rayet wormhole. Something like 11m sig and 2+km/s should od a fine speedtank. Add to that 350+ dps and you really got something.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
Callisto Helix
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:04:00 -
[516] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch.
Please please please do not give more missile ships type specific damage bonuses. I love the damage increase, just please don't make it type specific.
Missiles are supposed to benefit from being able to choose their damage types, not be pigeon-holed into using just one (or two in this case) to avoid suffering massive loss of DPS. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:06:00 -
[517] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:try using 8km/s warriors vs a linked snaked kiting frigate. your drones are capable of going far faster than the target, but you'll have difficulty breaking the recharge on their mse. this is a problem with drones, and CCP are unwilling to fix it because nobody cares about it except me. This hurts me, I have been wanting drone balance since Crucible. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
204
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:06:00 -
[518] - Quote
I can only pilot BR ships so that's as far as my opinion can realistically can go. As far as the curor, I really like the new change. I even mentioned something to that effect around two years ago so I'm completely on board with it. A small suggestion however is to not Nerf Pg/CPU and also add a low or mid slot. I hope Ashimmu is allowed the same boni but also increase its agility....its rather sluggish. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:09:00 -
[519] - Quote
Cruor will still lack of dps and tank ! cool i can have bonused range webs when i dont need them much. it will still not reach 200 dps without taking dmg mod in lows. Then you have 2 slots for tank... 0 chance against any missle or minmatar ship |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:12:00 -
[520] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:
2. 300% for drones is both absurd in lore explanation and in real aplication, 6 drones compressed in 2 only, bad idea, if you loose those 2 drones you practically loose a bit chunk of your DPS no matter if you can replace them, it makes more sense to have the normal 5 and enhance them all together.
Right so you can only poop out 2 of your 5, and if somebody takes the time to kill one of your two they've chewed through another frigate just getting through one. Like Frig vs Frig, killing a worms drone is going to be an actual feat of strength, and if its a cruiser you have tackled, forget it he's done he'll never get the damn drones down in time because its a tiny little thing orbiting him taking almost no damage from his cruiser sized weapons. Now, you would have a thing here if they weren't getting herculean hit points, the change at that point would indeed suck but as each singular drone has more hp than a full flight of lights I think you might be a bit off on this one.
Grath, for me at least it's all about the fun, i love the current worm with it's 25/50 bandwidth/bay size. The new worm you have 2 super drones, obvious it's more powerful then the current worm, but it's not more fun to fly.
Why not keep the worm 5/10 drone ship, and adjust the drone bonus accordingly? The Tears Must Flow |
|
Audrey Koshka
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:17:00 -
[521] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Angel ships aren't exactly OP. I don't know how you can state that here with a straight face when the Mach just took a nut-shot from the warp-speed mechanics changes (it's now much, much harder to skirmish with since anything in the game can outrun you as soon as it comes time to warp anywhere)
Most interesting suggestion I've heard on this one is giving Angel ships warp speeds of a class down - Dram warps like an inty, Cynabal warps like a frigate, Mach warps like a cruiser. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:22:00 -
[522] - Quote
very well if they're gonna make the missiles suck then at least it should balance with the drones:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: +5 aditional bandwidth per lvl
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% to drone damage and hitpoints
bandwidth/dronebay 10/50
the ship starts with 2 drones with double the life and hitpoints, and scales to have like 10 drones fielded, but has unbonused missiles.....
drone DPS: (using all 3 T2 DDAs and Hobgoblin IIs)
330
missile DPS: (using T2 launchers and Fury missiles)
38,6
total DPS: 367
it should be enough and it sounds better IMO |
Carmello Oskald
Void Tartarus Gone Critical
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:23:00 -
[523] - Quote
Are the drone bays for the Guristas ships getting nerfed, or are we still going to have a large drone bay to play with even though we will only use 2 drones at a time? Also, will bandwith be nerfed on these ships? |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:26:00 -
[524] - Quote
Carmello Oskald wrote:Are the drone bays for the Guristas ships getting nerfed, or are we still going to have a large drone bay to play with even though we will only use 2 drones at a time? Also, will bandwith be nerfed on these ships?
if you see the worm in the OP its bandwidth was nerfed from 25 to 10, but it remained with its 25 m3 dronebay, basically it obligues you to use only 2 drones, but gives space to have more spare in case you loose them....
|
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
220
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:28:00 -
[525] - Quote
Love the worm bonus with drones. They're not just a couple of disposable weapons, they're tough as nails and will kick your enemies in the family jewels.
Sansha ships should be very interesting to fly now, AB speed will definitely help.
Cruor looks better too, definite improvement. Old school NOS ftw X |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2808
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:28:00 -
[526] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:it should be enough and it sounds better IMO Sounds better than what? Why are you so determined to change the bonuses? Oh god. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:30:00 -
[527] - Quote
Galphii wrote:They're not just a couple of disposable weapons
but that's the point of drones, they should be disposable not permanent..... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:30:00 -
[528] - Quote
Carmello Oskald wrote:Are the drone bays for the Guristas ships getting nerfed, or are we still going to have a large drone bay to play with even though we will only use 2 drones at a time? Also, will bandwith be nerfed on these ships?
ofc they will Nerf Gila/rattlesnakes drone-bay why have a bay of 400 if you could only use up-to 75 bandwidth ? the worm did have a drone-bay size bonus removed after-all without it being built into its drone-bay like the ishtar got Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:31:00 -
[529] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:the ship starts with 2 drones with double the life and hitpoints, and scales to have like 10 drones fielded, but has unbonused missiles..... Is there a good reason to want to have > 5 drones? |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:34:00 -
[530] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:it should be enough and it sounds better IMO Sounds better than what? Why are you so determined to change the bonuses?
because those bonuses are awful, i do the work of proposing better bonuses without killing their current stats, drones are meant to be disposable, missiles are meant to be damage selectable, it doesnt make sense to pigeon hole the ship to be kinetic/thermal and obligue it to use 2 drones only just because they will have more damage and HP than the normal....... |
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:34:00 -
[531] - Quote
i definitely think succubus should get a stronger set of projection bonuses since it will be going much faster than most frigs will on average and lasers track poorly too begin with
10% tracking 7.5% optimal range Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:35:00 -
[532] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Galphii wrote:They're not just a couple of disposable weapons but that's the point of drones, they should be disposable not permanent..... Drone ships don't have the capacity to view drones as highly disposable unless you eliminate variety in drone fitting, which marginalizes a pretty significant advantage they have. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2306
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:36:00 -
[533] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Galphii wrote:They're not just a couple of disposable weapons but that's the point of drones, they should be disposable not permanent.....
Actually having few longer lasting drones is infinitely more desirable from both a player and server perspective.
I mean imagine if every time you undocked you faced the chance of having your pulse lasers blown off.
Actually that sounds kinda cool so thats a bad example, but drones shouldn't be considered throwaway, or should be fashioned in a way that helps them live longer. I actually wish all drones would act like fighters and warp off after, grids full of abandoned drones are kinda ****.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Methonash Qorranto
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
3
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:37:00 -
[534] - Quote
This forum is an unmitigated cesspool of hateful and villainous thoughts; I fully expect this post to be spat on, pissed on, and [furiously] defecated upon. Having said that...
I absolutely LOVE the proposed change(s) that will be coming to the Worm - particularly the new role bonus! With 300% bonus to drone damage and HP, and the ability to effectively field 2.5 flights of steroid-pumped light drones, the Worm will become a premiere "elite light drone" attack platform.
Allow me to do some arithmetic for us:
All light drones (both tech1 and tech2) have a base elemental damage of 15 points - this is before elemental-specific modifiers apply, and before tech2 bonus modifiers apply. Over 4 seconds, this equates to an "absolute base" of 3.75 DPS on any tech1/2 drone - before any further modifiers.
So, what will we get with the PVPholics' tech2 Warriors?
3.75 * 1.3 (base light drone explosive modifier) * 1.2 (base tech2 modifier) * 2 (drone interfacing maxed) * 4 (new worm role bonus) * 1.25 (combat drone operation maxed) * 1.1 (minmatar drone spec maxed) * 1.23 (first DDA2) * 1.2 (second DDA2) * 1.1311 (third DDA2) * 2 (max drones fielded by new Worm) = 214.87 DPS
Warrior 2's with three DDA2's: 3.75 * 1.3 * 1.2 * 2 * 4 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.23 * 1.2 * 1.1311 * 2 = 214.87 DPS
Warrior 2's without any DDA2's: 3.75 * 1.3 * 1.2 * 2 * 4 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 2 = 128.70 DPS
Hobgoblin 2's with three DDA2's: 3.75 * 1.6 * 1.2 * 2 * 4 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.23 * 1.2 * 1.1311 * 2 = 264.45 DPS
Hobgoblin 2's without any DDA2's: 3.75 * 1.6 * 1.2 * 2 * 4 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 2 = 158.40 DPS
This is only the damage-centric part of the discussion; I won't even bother to elaborate upon the [vastly] improved tank of the 2 light drones, as Grath has already [brilliantly] covered in an earlier post of his, which can be found here.
So with vastly augmented drone DPS centered on 2 light drones, each of which has the EHP of a decently well-tanked frigate, there's really no room to complain - you could [very easily] get 200+ DPS on a ship before counting any of its launchers!
A final point to [seriously] consider, for all of those who keep posting new Worm "attribute" lists with 5+ drones: the whole rationale to move down towards fielding only 2 drones at a time was done for both gameplay originality and server load--was it not proven, in recent memory, that fielding thousands of drones on-grid at a time could cause soul-crushing lag?
I would *pay* to field fewer drones, each with vastly improved HP, associated [shield] regeneration, and damage. My only hope is to see this excellent mechanic transition [in some form] into the Gila and Rattlesnake someday, preferably with Medium drone emphasis on the Gila and Medium+Heavy drone emphases on the Rattlesnake. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:39:00 -
[535] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:the ship starts with 2 drones with double the life and hitpoints, and scales to have like 10 drones fielded, but has unbonused missiles..... Is there a good reason to want to have > 5 drones?
its a unique bonus, in fact, i would be better if the ship had a 50/50 drone configuration and had a +1 aditional drone while keeping the max velocity bonus for missiles.
its madness i mean, when they proposed the SoE ships people complained, now you defend that intent of balance for the pirate ships?, come on....... |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2951
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:42:00 -
[536] - Quote
When can we see the cruisers and battleships? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:43:00 -
[537] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:the ship starts with 2 drones with double the life and hitpoints, and scales to have like 10 drones fielded, but has unbonused missiles..... Is there a good reason to want to have > 5 drones? its a unique bonus, in fact, i would be better if the ship had a 50/50 drone configuration and had a +1 aditional drone while keeping the max velocity bonus for missiles. its madness i mean, when they proposed the SoE ships people complained, now you defend that intent of balance for the pirate ships?, come on....... Unique doesn't mean good. You've in no way justified calling that bonus "better." It was unjustified in the SOE threads and is similarly unjustified here. |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
204
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:44:00 -
[538] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Side note, for the blood raider line, have you thought about giving them a bonus to the neut drones? I know you said you didn't want to touch the ewar drones until they are balanced, but it would make for an interesting line up.
You can still get the neut power without having to force highslots to be neuts, meaning it can have applicable dps, or fewer highs and better mids/lows. While also forcing the trade off of destructible systems (blowing up neut drones, etc). It gives it a nice change and makes for an easier ship to try and do so many things (webs + neuts + damage + tank, is a lot for such few modules).
This is a great idea, it even fits lore wise considering Amarr are a drone race and neut race. +1 Oderint Dum Metuant |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:47:00 -
[539] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:the ship starts with 2 drones with double the life and hitpoints, and scales to have like 10 drones fielded, but has unbonused missiles..... Is there a good reason to want to have > 5 drones? its a unique bonus, in fact, i would be better if the ship had a 50/50 drone configuration and had a +1 aditional drone while keeping the max velocity bonus for missiles. its madness i mean, when they proposed the SoE ships people complained, now you defend that intent of balance for the pirate ships?, come on....... Unique doesn't mean good. You've in no way justified calling that bonus "better." It was unjustified in the SOE threads and is similarly unjustified here.
people bitched about the astero and the stratios and the ship suffered it by nerfing them to field 4 drones, now the worm gets pigeonholed to a practically hybrid weapon damage hole for its missiles and to compensate they nerf its bandwidth to use 2 overpowered drones......that isnt better either..... |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:48:00 -
[540] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:When can we see the cruisers and battleships?
suddenly people doing L4s in a rattlesnake with only 2 sentries.......and only with kinetic/thermal ammo |
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:50:00 -
[541] - Quote
at least change the missile bonus, if you're gonna **** it so much, give it hybrid damage bonuses and put it 2 turret hardpoints and kill the damn missile stuff already, it will still be limited to kinetic/thermal anyways, why bother.. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:54:00 -
[542] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote: people bitched about the astero and the stratios and the ship suffered it by nerfing them to field 4 drones, now the worm gets pigeonholed to a practically hybrid weapon damage hole for its missiles and to compensate they nerf its bandwidth to use 2 overpowered drones......that isnt better either.....
Actually it's demonstrably better than 5 drones with a 10% per level bonus. It's also getting buffed in the hybrid weapons range and loosing nothing outside of it. The stratios on the other hand didn't get a bonus adjustment to compensate for the loss of bandwidth, making that completely incomparable.
Few people are hung up on the actual number of drones in space since the bonuses turn that into a comparatively meaningless metric when evaluating performance.
Silivar Karkun wrote:at least change the missile bonus, if you're gonna **** it so much, give it hybrid damage bonuses and put it 2 turret hardpoints and kill the damn missile stuff already, it will still be limited to kinetic/thermal anyways, why bother.. Got strait damage buff for 2 types Lost nothing on the other types People still complain and ask for further damage type restriction |
Vivian Marcos
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:55:00 -
[543] - Quote
Omg i can't wait for the succubus :D!
The only problem i have is what others and Rise said was that the cruor doesn't have any synergy with its bonus'. I think it will end up being ship that is used more but still less than the others. I can see why you dont want the range bonus to nuets (why fly the sent then?) but still... Hey sky, get back to work! U 2 cips.... |
Methonash Qorranto
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:55:00 -
[544] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote: suddenly people doing L4s in a rattlesnake with only 2 sentries.......and only with kinetic/thermal ammo
If we get what I'm [not-so-secretly] hoping for, the Rattler will become a non-sentry drone platform! ^^; |
Lugalzagezi666
218
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:57:00 -
[545] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: Thats unheated. Also, with drones it gets another 40 dps.
If you do get scrammed, you can empty the cap of most frigates in 5-10s.
Uh? No. Its 168dps overheated gun dps at 17k with barely above 4k ehp and 15cpu over fitting (31 cpu over fitting with 2 neuts fitted).
And in the moment you get scrammed, oponent has full control of engagement and can easily kite you between overheated scram range and neut range.
Basically nos/neut efficiency is wasted bonus for new cruor. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:59:00 -
[546] - Quote
Ignore the worm's damage bonus to missiles. I mean seriously. It does not have it now, it's not hurting you to have it later... there is no need for the hate. CCP obviously likes the specific damage bonuses on missles, its only a few missile ships that get ROF instead of a Kin or Exp bonus.
This has happened before. Swarms of drones caused issues, and now we have bandwidth and drone limits. Get over it. This is probably just a proof of concept to do this more globally. Honestly at some point I expect the dronebay to turn into some kind of weird fitting screen where drone 'modules' get installed, and drones themselves become purely client side graphic effects that basically behave ship turrets with an AI control option. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 23:59:00 -
[547] - Quote
Methonash Qorranto wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote: suddenly people doing L4s in a rattlesnake with only 2 sentries.......and only with kinetic/thermal ammo
If we get what I'm [not-so-secretly] hoping for, the Rattler will become a non-sentry drone platform! ^^;
With 3 cruiser like ogres..C: |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:02:00 -
[548] - Quote
Methonash Qorranto wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote: suddenly people doing L4s in a rattlesnake with only 2 sentries.......and only with kinetic/thermal ammo
If we get what I'm [not-so-secretly] hoping for, the Rattler will become a non-sentry drone platform! ^^;
at its best and if it follows the line of the worm, it will be both for heavies and sentries, its not like its too hard to fit navigation computers or omnidirectionals....... |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:04:00 -
[549] - Quote
and i was expecting to get a rattlesnake for my missions, guess i'll have to save for a nestor instead....if not a nightmare..... |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
461
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:05:00 -
[550] - Quote
Audrey Koshka wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Angel ships aren't exactly OP. I don't know how you can state that here with a straight face when the Mach just took a nut-shot from the warp-speed mechanics changes (it's now much, much harder to skirmish with since anything in the game can outrun you as soon as it comes time to warp anywhere) Most interesting suggestion I've heard on this one is giving Angel ships warp speeds of a class down - Dram warps like an inty, Cynabal warps like a frigate, Mach warps like a cruiser.
I love this idea, there are SO many different ways to make these ships unique, don't be afraid to think outside the box Rise. These all feel pretty boring/meh on ships that arguably have the most room to be innovative and unique.
Like my bonused energy neut drones idea...don't be afraid of being out there. |
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:05:00 -
[551] - Quote
About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. The Tears Must Flow |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:08:00 -
[552] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Ignore the worm's damage bonus to missiles. I mean seriously. It does not have it now, it's not hurting you to have it later... there is no need for the hate. CCP obviously likes the specific damage bonuses on missles, its only a few missile ships that get ROF instead of a Kin or Exp bonus.
This has happened before. Swarms of drones caused issues, and now we have bandwidth and drone limits. Get over it. This is probably just a proof of concept to do this more globally. Honestly at some point I expect the dronebay to turn into some kind of weird fitting screen where drone 'modules' get installed, and drones themselves become purely client side graphic effects that basically behave ship turrets with an AI control option.
Then why not just remove drones from the game and be done with it? ........
The Worm should remain a 5/10 drone shield tanked ship. It's currently a fun ship to fly, don't ruin it. The Tears Must Flow |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:08:00 -
[553] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.
But after the changes come Worm will remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 8/20 scout drones(Gallente). What is the unfun part about the balancing pass you keep talking about? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:10:00 -
[554] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:11:00 -
[555] - Quote
the ship will be harder if not impossible to gank due to its big pair of insane drones...... (?) |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:12:00 -
[556] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.
5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm. The Tears Must Flow |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:13:00 -
[557] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.
drones are meant to be lost in combat, its the tradeoff of their functionality if you get jammed they still attack the enemy, they work as the weapon and as the ammo, |
Tarithell
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
28
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:13:00 -
[558] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these"
Clearly the tears about drone assist mechanics in the other threads wasent enough and you had to bring that sh*t here too wow. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:14:00 -
[559] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this.
This is based on ? just what its currently i assume, after gila/rs changes it might be just as natural.
Looking at missions and all that stuff, Guristas never field drones, and Sansha is armor tanked (look where slave set comes from). Nothing is set in stone for what ecch faction "prefer" to use.
I agree that a drone based bonus from Gallente skill would be natural, but again we have that strong role bonus for drones. Change the missile dmg for drone tracking or something like that if people cry to much about the current bonus :P |
Methonash Qorranto
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:15:00 -
[560] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote: 5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.
CCP please pimp my [remaining] drones <3
|
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:15:00 -
[561] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. But after the changes come Worm will remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 8/20 scout drones(Gallente). What is the unfun part about the balancing pass you keep talking about?
That's a 10/25 ship with overpowered drones, not a 40/100 with normal drones....
The current Worm is fun to fly because it's a shield tanked frigate with 5 drones in space (5 spare). The Tears Must Flow |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:16:00 -
[562] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:and i was expecting to get a rattlesnake for my missions, guess i'll have to save for a nestor instead....if not a nightmare.....
Why would you bother? With the current state of the AI, unless you bring friends into your missions the rats have got a serious case of the munchies and a love of sweet, sweet drone snacks.
On the other hand, looking at some stats real quick, a Warden with my middling skills and the 300% bonus would be something like:
Shield: 5528 Armor: 2576 Structure: 8292
That's gonna take the rats a few shots to kill...
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:17:00 -
[563] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives. 5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.
allow the ship to have an upper lvl flight of drones, worm: 5 lights or 5 meds, gila (as it does right now): 5 mediums, 5 lights and even 5 heavies/sentries, Rattlesnake: 5 lights, medium, heavies or sentries......
this can be achieved by just doubling the dronebay and the bandwidth of the worm, so its 50/50, no need change its missile bonuses, maybe give it a bonus of tracking and speed so you dont have to put aditional modules or buff its missile capabilities by giving it a 25% damage bonus to missiles, not really much of a buff...... |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:17:00 -
[564] - Quote
What the balls are you doing to the Worm? What role is it filling? 50% damage bonus to TWO launchers?!
What happened? You all did spectacular on T1 frigates, you made T1 cruisers across the board useable. What changed at battlecruisers? Why didn't anyone notice the change at battleships? Why all of this super experimental crap? Why? Look, if you want Gurista ships to also bother with fitting missiles- you're going to need to give them at least one more launcher across the board, in addition to a damage bonus like that. Either that, or bump up that to a 100-125% damage bonus to these two damage types with two launchers, or 75%, or SOMETHING. Literally the only change I agree with for the Worm is the addition of PG and CPU- that'll at least open up new sorts of fits. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:18:00 -
[565] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm. You just made the 2/5 sound more attractive to me.
|
Psychotic Monk
Vivaldi Reloaded
1844
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:20:00 -
[566] - Quote
I like these changes in general, but I'm pretty meh on the Sansha changes.
For starters, the Succubus and the Phantasm both have pretty harsh cap problems in my experience. I saw a buff to the Succubus's cap, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.
Also, echoing what some others have said in this thread, we already have fast and hard to hit frigs in the form of the daredevil and the dramiel, I'm not sure making Sansha a set of shield-tanking laser angels is really using the whole thing to its full potential.
Have you considered something a little more out there, like maybe giving them bonuses that make you want to tinker tank them and rock some badass local reps? That would be really interesting and fit with the flavor of their lore.
Just a thought.
I want more excuses to fly boats with spikes on them. Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:23:00 -
[567] - Quote
Aglais wrote:What the balls are you doing to the Worm? What role is it filling? 50% damage bonus to TWO launchers?!
What happened? You all did spectacular on T1 frigates, you made T1 cruisers across the board useable. What changed at battlecruisers? Why didn't anyone notice the change at battleships? Why all of this super experimental crap? Why? Look, if you want Gurista ships to also bother with fitting missiles- you're going to need to give them at least one more launcher across the board, in addition to a damage bonus like that. Either that, or bump up that to a 100-125% damage bonus to these two damage types with two launchers, or 75%, or SOMETHING. Literally the only change I agree with for the Worm is the addition of PG and CPU- that'll at least open up new sorts of fits.
this |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
844
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:23:00 -
[568] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:To anybody complaining about the Worm.
Stop.
Full stop.
Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:
Augmented Warriors
Shield -464 (dd5 580) Armor -692 (dd5 865) Structure -1040 (dd5 1300)
2196 (dd5 2745) total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.(skills will bring this to 30/50 at max)
Republic Fleet Warriors
Shield -616 (dd5 770) Armor -920 (dd5 1150) Structure-576 (dd5 720)
2112 (dd5 2640) Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds. (Skills will bring this up to 75 at max)
Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.
He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).
You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).
Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.
EDIT: Drone Durability 5 will raise those totals by about 500 each, Damage totals will also go up 25% more as well
Am I just completely math-tarded (totally a possibility) or is a 300% (or 3x) multiplier to drone damage applied to two drones the equivalent of six un-bonused drones, not 8?
IDK if I'm just doing it wrong, but I get 6x unbonused drones' worth of DPS from the Worm's two drones vs 6.25x un-bonused drones' worth of damage from a 5-drone ship with a 5%/level (25%) damage bonus. How are you getting your 8 drones' worth of damage?
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:24:00 -
[569] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives. 5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm. allow the ship to have an upper lvl flight of drones, worm: 5 lights or 5 meds, gila (as it does right now): 5 mediums, 5 lights and even 5 heavies/sentries, Rattlesnake: 5 lights, medium, heavies or sentries...... this can be achieved by just doubling the dronebay and the bandwidth of the worm, so its 50/50, no need change its missile bonuses, maybe give it a bonus of tracking and speed so you dont have to put aditional modules or buff its missile capabilities by giving it a 25% damage bonus to missiles, not really much of a buff......
Congratulations. You have just won my coveted most annoying poster of the day award.
Seriously... 2 drones is happening. If you consider the proposal a nerf, lube up and prepare to take it like a man.
The proposal improves the DPS of the ship in every way possible while costing it nothing but a bit of missile range that it didn't need. There is nothing in the new stats worthy of this much histrionic fit throwing. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:26:00 -
[570] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:To anybody complaining about the Worm.
Stop.
Full stop.
Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:
Augmented Warriors
Shield -464 (dd5 580) Armor -692 (dd5 865) Structure -1040 (dd5 1300)
2196 (dd5 2745) total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.(skills will bring this to 30/50 at max)
Republic Fleet Warriors
Shield -616 (dd5 770) Armor -920 (dd5 1150) Structure-576 (dd5 720)
2112 (dd5 2640) Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds. (Skills will bring this up to 75 at max)
Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.
He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).
You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).
Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.
EDIT: Drone Durability 5 will raise those totals by about 500 each, Damage totals will also go up 25% more as well Am I just completely math-tarded (totally a possibility) or is a 300% (or 3x) multiplier to drone damage applied to two drones the equivalent of six un-bonused drones, not 8? IDK if I'm just doing it wrong, but I get 6x unbonused drones' worth of DPS from the Worm's two drones vs 6.25x un-bonused drones' worth of damage from a 5-drone ship with a 5%/level (25%) damage bonus. How are you getting your 8 drones' worth of damage?
It's a bonus, so your math is off by the first 100% that is the base drones themselves. Drones 100%+Bonus 300%= Total effective drones 400% |
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:26:00 -
[571] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% to rocket and light missile max velocity
drone bandwidth/drone bay: 50/50
basically a small brother for the gila, (as it should have been)....... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:27:00 -
[572] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote: Am I just completely math-tarded (totally a possibility) or is a 300% (or 3x) multiplier to drone damage applied to two drones the equivalent of six un-bonused drones, not 8?
IDK if I'm just doing it wrong, but I get 6x unbonused drones' worth of DPS from the Worm's two drones vs 6.25x un-bonused drones' worth of damage from a 5-drone ship with a 5%/level (25%) damage bonus. How are you getting your 8 drones' worth of damage?
You are right on the math, but wrong on the interpretation.
A 300% bonus ADDS 300%, to the original 100%, totaling to 400%.
It's not a 3x multiplier much like the 100% bonus on a marauder is not a 1x multiplier. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
523
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:28:00 -
[573] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% to rocket and light missile max velocity
drone bandwidth/drone bay: 50/50
basically a small brother for the gila, (as it should have been).......
absolutely awful |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2213
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:28:00 -
[574] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% to rocket and light missile max velocity
drone bandwidth/drone bay: 50/50
basically a small brother for the gila, (as it should have been)....... Just stop, the Worm is amazing as is. Its unique, functional and powerful without being OP. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Methonash Qorranto
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:29:00 -
[575] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote: Am I just completely math-tarded (totally a possibility) or is a 300% (or 3x) multiplier to drone damage applied to two drones the equivalent of six un-bonused drones, not 8?
IDK if I'm just doing it wrong, but I get 6x unbonused drones' worth of DPS from the Worm's two drones vs 6.25x un-bonused drones' worth of damage from a 5-drone ship with a 5%/level (25%) damage bonus. How are you getting your 8 drones' worth of damage?
You're not math-tarded, Sir - you're just forgetting one important little detail: that base damage is already at 100%, and you have to factor that in when counting the bonus.
Thus, a 300% bonus on top of 100% equals 400%, or in other words, an effective multiplier of 4x.
So, 4 * 2 --> 8.
With 5 drones at 25% bonus (on top of 100% base), you get 5 * 1.25 = 6.25, which is what you *did* calculate correctly.
In other words, it's 300% of 100%, or 3, on top of the 1 base --> so 4 total, and 4 by 2 --> 8. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
405
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:29:00 -
[576] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% to rocket and light missile max velocity
drone bandwidth/drone bay: 50/50
basically a small brother for the gila, (as it should have been).......
You are amazing. Really. Very Special.
|
Methonash Qorranto
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:31:00 -
[577] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote: You are amazing. Really. Very Special.
Much butthurt.
Very melancholic.
Wow. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:33:00 -
[578] - Quote
When are these changes going up on the test server? I have to look into the Worm; as it stands I do not agree with the offensive capabilities of the Worm and will not unless circumstances in actual gameplay end up changing my mind. Running through things in my head it still looks like it's not going to have the damage nor the defense to truly get a leg up over competing T2 ships (ie. the Harpy, in terms of defense)- I distinctly recall that the AF survivability buff a while back essentially put these two hulls literally right next to eachother in terms of raw shield HP. The ship won't be fun if it isn't capable, and right now it doesn't look like it's quite finished. Honestly, I'd accept what was happening now if it got just slightly more fittings, enough to accomodate a third launcher- and then got that third launcher hardpoint. I literally do not see the point of a 50% damage bonus to two launchers. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
693
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:35:00 -
[579] - Quote
seems pretty good |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:38:00 -
[580] - Quote
Just finished calculating the EHP for a RF warrior with a T2 durability rig.
Raw 962.5 1437.5 900
Shield Omni perDT 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55
Armor Omni perDT 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30
Structure 900
Total 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30 900 _____ 4,874 EHP for one drone with a 25m sig and a speed of 750/5250. Not bad. |
|
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:39:00 -
[581] - Quote
Worm looks pimp Succubus looks pimp(although will have to see how the tracking holds up) Cruor looks confused but has some definite possibilities. DD and Dram were already pimp.
Overall solid collection of updates. I love the use of new bonuses. I can't wait to see the cruisers. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:40:00 -
[582] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Just finished calculating the EHP for a RF warrior with a T2 durability rig.
Raw 962.5 1437.5 900
Shield Omni perDT 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55
Armor Omni perDT 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30
Structure 900
Total 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30 900 _____ 4,874 EHP for one drone doing 82.5DPS with a 25m sig and a speed of 750/5250. Not bad.
Not bad != Being fun.
Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate! The Tears Must Flow |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:44:00 -
[583] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:Just finished calculating the EHP for a RF warrior with a T2 durability rig.
Raw 962.5 1437.5 900
Shield Omni perDT 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55
Armor Omni perDT 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30
Structure 900
Total 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30 900 _____ 4,874 EHP for one drone doing 82.5DPS with a 25m sig and a speed of 750/5250. Not bad.
Not bad != Being fun. Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate!
I personally can't wait to fly it, I think its going to be amazingly fun.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Nimbolic
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:46:00 -
[584] - Quote
probably been said, but i wanted to add my opinion. i think these proposed changes all look pretty good so far. i would really hope that serpentis ships keep their extremely strong webs. they may be broken like that but its what makes them fun to fly. honestly i dont know that i would fly a vindicator again if that loses the 90% web (yes i realize battleship changes havent been released yet) whilst i like the strong drone damage bonus on the worm, im not so sure i would like the same '2 strong drones' thing to carry on to the heavier ships. the gila perhaps shouldnt be able to launch 5 heavies/sentries but i think the rattlesnake should. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:46:00 -
[585] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:Just finished calculating the EHP for a RF warrior with a T2 durability rig.
Raw 962.5 1437.5 900
Shield Omni perDT 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55
Armor Omni perDT 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30
Structure 900
Total 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30 900 _____ 4,874 EHP for one drone doing 82.5DPS with a 25m sig and a speed of 750/5250. Not bad.
Not bad != Being fun. Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate! I personally can't wait to fly it, I think its going to be amazingly fun.
I bet a 5(bandwith)/10(bay) drone ship with 600% bonus would be even better right?... The Tears Must Flow |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
845
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:47:00 -
[586] - Quote
I really have to chime in and say that the drone bonus on Gurista's hulls should be moved to the Gallente bonus. I know you've stated that it makes the ship perform poorly without Frigate V, but let's face it: these are high SP ships anyway, so you should be flying them with at least perfect spaceship command skills. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:47:00 -
[587] - Quote
Quote: I bet a 5(bandwith)/10(bay) drone ship with 600% bonus would be even better right?...
It would be demonstratively worse, since it would make the equivalent of 7 drones. Now we have 8. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:48:00 -
[588] - Quote
Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:48:00 -
[589] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:
Not bad != Being fun.
Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate!
I strongly urge you to stop suggesting to change it back. I did actual numbermancy on some things- the Worm looks like it'll completely melt face within rocket range. I'm talking 214 DPS with my skills, no doubt more if you have the right implants. Slightly more tank than before, not to mention it's also getting faster, while staying the same (fairly light) mass. These drones are putting out ~111 DPS, will have 4800-5000something EHP and a signature radius of 25m in orbit. This could be a ship that revitalizes drone useage, SOMEWHERE, in New Eden. And it looks like my desire for a missile using shield brawler has come true. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:49:00 -
[590] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:Just finished calculating the EHP for a RF warrior with a T2 durability rig.
Raw 962.5 1437.5 900
Shield Omni perDT 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55
Armor Omni perDT 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30
Structure 900
Total 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30 900 _____ 4,874 EHP for one drone doing 82.5DPS with a 25m sig and a speed of 750/5250. Not bad.
Not bad != Being fun. Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate! I personally can't wait to fly it, I think its going to be amazingly fun. I bet a 5(bandwith)/10(bay) drone ship with 600% bonus would be even better right?... Not terribly different while having less spares(2 vs 2.5 flights) and lower damage? Why? |
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:49:00 -
[591] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."?
"Cuz..." it fun to use 5 drones with 5 spares?
Why not change the new Worm to only use one drone with 600% bonus? The Tears Must Flow |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:51:00 -
[592] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:Just finished calculating the EHP for a RF warrior with a T2 durability rig.
Raw 962.5 1437.5 900
Shield Omni perDT 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55
Armor Omni perDT 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30
Structure 900
Total 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30 900 _____ 4,874 EHP for one drone doing 82.5DPS with a 25m sig and a speed of 750/5250. Not bad.
Not bad != Being fun. Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate! I personally can't wait to fly it, I think its going to be amazingly fun. I bet a 5(bandwith)/10(bay) drone ship with 600% bonus would be even better right?... Not terribly different while having less spares(2 vs 2.5 flights) and lower damage? Why?
Already aswer this, it's fun to fly a 5 drones frigate with 5 spares, it's what makes the current Worm great.
The Tears Must Flow |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
230
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:51:00 -
[593] - Quote
why? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
405
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:52:00 -
[594] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:Just finished calculating the EHP for a RF warrior with a T2 durability rig.
Raw 962.5 1437.5 900
Shield Omni perDT 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55
Armor Omni perDT 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30
Structure 900
Total 240.62 300.77 401.03 601.55 898.43 653.40 479.16 399.30 900 _____ 4,874 EHP for one drone doing 82.5DPS with a 25m sig and a speed of 750/5250. Not bad.
Not bad != Being fun. Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate! I personally can't wait to fly it, I think its going to be amazingly fun. I bet a 5(bandwith)/10(bay) drone ship with 600% bonus would be even better right?...
If it was a 700% bonus... I would chew Rise's left arm off trying to get him to give me one of those drones with space to plug my pod in. It would be a frigate with almost a battleships tank.
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:52:00 -
[595] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."?
try to gank a frigate with to 2 "drones" that are basically closer to be frigates (if not destroyers) themselves.....try to look at that from the point of a bigger hull, how are you gonna stop that, with webs?, they would tank any damage done by your drones or smartbombs or other weapons.....while is easier to get rid of a flight of 5 drones in fact, its hard already (got ganked by an ishtar once, it was traumatizing) now imagine a ship with 2 drones with the tank and DPS of 4 each one, but with the rest of the statistics equal to any other light drone, they're practically immortal..... |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:53:00 -
[596] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:
Not bad != Being fun.
Keep the Worm as 5/10 drone shield tank frigate!
I strongly urge you to stop suggesting to change it back. I did actual numbermancy on some things- the Worm looks like it'll completely melt face within rocket range. I'm talking 214 DPS with my skills, no doubt more if you have the right implants. Slightly more tank than before, not to mention it's also getting faster, while staying the same (fairly light) mass. These drones are putting out ~111 DPS, will have 4800-5000something EHP and a signature radius of 25m in orbit. This could be a ship that revitalizes drone useage, SOMEWHERE, in New Eden. And it looks like my desire for a missile using shield brawler has come true.
Being overpowered != of being fun. The current Worm with 25/50 drone configuration is fun ship to fly. The Tears Must Flow |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:53:00 -
[597] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? "Cuz..." it fun to use 5 drones with 5 spares? Why not change the new Worm to only use one drone with 600% bonus?
Not sure how having 5 drones is any more fun that having 2 and your 1 drone version has 7 effective drones instead of the proposed 8 effective drones. The proposed Worm is better than the old one in every way. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
524
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:53:00 -
[598] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."?
because if my dps is in 2 drones, what happens if someone webs one and stops it getting within 8km? also, what of tracking disruptors vs drones?
and if this is the way it needs to be to make combat drone ships good, why is this a guristas-only thing? |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
844
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:53:00 -
[599] - Quote
Methonash Qorranto wrote:Ganthrithor wrote: Am I just completely math-tarded (totally a possibility) or is a 300% (or 3x) multiplier to drone damage applied to two drones the equivalent of six un-bonused drones, not 8?
IDK if I'm just doing it wrong, but I get 6x unbonused drones' worth of DPS from the Worm's two drones vs 6.25x un-bonused drones' worth of damage from a 5-drone ship with a 5%/level (25%) damage bonus. How are you getting your 8 drones' worth of damage?
You're not math-tarded, Sir - you're just forgetting one important little detail: that base damage is already at 100%, and you have to factor that in when counting the bonus. Thus, a 300% bonus on top of 100% equals 400%, or in other words, an effective multiplier of 4x. So, 4 * 2 --> 8. With 5 drones at 25% bonus (on top of 100% base), you get 5 * 1.25 = 6.25, which is what you *did* calculate correctly. In other words, it's 300% of 100%, or 3, on top of the 1 base --> so 4 total, and 4 by 2 --> 8.
:shobon:
Thanks, duder! That was dumb :3 |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:56:00 -
[600] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? "Cuz..." it fun to use 5 drones with 5 spares? Why not change the new Worm to only use one drone with 600% bonus?
You may not even NEED spare drones, don't you see? These drones are going to have more EHP than heavies, while having significantly smaller sigs and travelling FAR faster. You'll still have a 'spare set' of drones given that the bay of the Worm will still be 25. |
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:56:00 -
[601] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? "Cuz..." it fun to use 5 drones with 5 spares? Why not change the new Worm to only use one drone with 600% bonus? Not sure how having 5 drones is any more fun that having 2 and your 1 drone version has 7 effective drones instead of the proposed 8 effective drones. The proposed Worm is better than the old one in every way.
Again, being better is different from being fun. The current Worm sucks for most people, but it's my favorite ship of the game because it's a 25/50 drone shield tank frigate. The Tears Must Flow |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1748
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:56:00 -
[602] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:
I bet a 5(bandwith)/10(bay) drone ship with 600% bonus would be even better right?...
yes. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:57:00 -
[603] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? because if my dps is in 2 drones, what happens if someone webs one and stops it getting within 8km? also, what of tracking disruptors vs drones? and if this is the way it needs to be to make combat drone ships good, why is this a guristas-only thing?
So ewar being a workable counter to drones is bad? Seems to me(I may be wrong) that having your opponent use his ewar on your drones instead of you is a good thing. TDing ships will effect part of your DPS but your missiles will still hit them and the other drone will too. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
693
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:57:00 -
[604] - Quote
2 drones = bad idea, one griffin can solo worm, just jamm worm and both drones, nothing can go wrong. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:59:00 -
[605] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? "Cuz..." it fun to use 5 drones with 5 spares? Why not change the new Worm to only use one drone with 600% bonus? Not sure how having 5 drones is any more fun that having 2 and your 1 drone version has 7 effective drones instead of the proposed 8 effective drones. The proposed Worm is better than the old one in every way. Again, being better is different from being fun. The current Worm sucks for most people, but it's my favorite ship of the game because it's a 25/50 drone shield tank frigate.
You keep saying that the 25/50 Shield tank frigate is what makes it fun, How does it being a 10/25 Drone Shield tank frigate that does more DPS and has more survivable Drones ruin that? |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:59:00 -
[606] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? "Cuz..." it fun to use 5 drones with 5 spares? Why not change the new Worm to only use one drone with 600% bonus? You may not even NEED spare drones, don't you see? These drones are going to have more EHP than heavies, while having significantly smaller sigs and travelling FAR faster. You'll still have a 'spare set' of drones given that the bay of the Worm will still be 25.
I've already answered this, being better is different from being fun, and for me the fun of the Worm is the fact you can use 5 drones with 5 spare on a shield tanked frigate. The Tears Must Flow |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 00:59:00 -
[607] - Quote
not gonna keep arguing about the bonuses, but think of it from the victim standpoint, wouldnt those dronesbe too hard (if not impossible) to destroy?, basically you're fighting 1v3, no imagine a small group of 3 worms, those are 16 drones worth of DPS right there.....so its like getting ganked by 9 ships... (3 ships each worm) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
524
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:00:00 -
[608] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? because if my dps is in 2 drones, what happens if someone webs one and stops it getting within 8km? also, what of tracking disruptors vs drones? and if this is the way it needs to be to make combat drone ships good, why is this a guristas-only thing? So ewar being a workable counter to drones is bad? Seems to me(I may be wrong) that having your opponent use his ewar on your drones instead of you is a good thing. TDing ships will effect part of your DPS but your missiles will still hit them and the other drone will too.
of course it's bad. drones are supposed to be pretty much ewar-proof. that, and iffy damage at whatever range you like, is supposed to be the reason you use drones. TDs are ridiculously powerful already. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1132
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:03:00 -
[609] - Quote
I can't believe there are people defending the current Worm.
If you want a 25/50 drone frigate, fly an Ishkur tbh. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:03:00 -
[610] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."? "Cuz..." it fun to use 5 drones with 5 spares? Why not change the new Worm to only use one drone with 600% bonus? Not sure how having 5 drones is any more fun that having 2 and your 1 drone version has 7 effective drones instead of the proposed 8 effective drones. The proposed Worm is better than the old one in every way. Again, being better is different from being fun. The current Worm sucks for most people, but it's my favorite ship of the game because it's a 25/50 drone shield tank frigate. You keep saying that the 25/50 Shield tank frigate is what makes it fun, How does it being a 10/25 Drone Shield tank frigate that does more DPS and has more survivable Drones ruin that?
I like using 5 drones on a frigate, i like micromanaging 5 drones plus 5 spares during fights, only having 2 active drones ruin the fun of this ship for me (the current Worm is my favorite ship of the game). The Tears Must Flow |
|
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:04:00 -
[611] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:
I've already answered this, being better is different from being fun, and for me the fun of the Worm is the fact you can use 5 drones with 5 spare on a shield tanked frigate.
I don't know, the fact that if I'm right I'll be doing ~215 DPS while still having top tier tank in the frigate class is going to be more fun than the slightly anemic Worm of now.
The new Worm is, in terms of stats, objectively superior to the old one. More fitting, more DPS, (slightly) more tank, it's faster... |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:04:00 -
[612] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:of course it's bad. drones are supposed to be pretty much ewar-proof.
Drones are pretty much EWAR proof, that doesn't mean they are supposed to be. I don't believe I have ever seen a Dev say that they want drones to be immune to EWAR. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:04:00 -
[613] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:I can't believe there are people defending the current Worm.
If you want a 25/50 drone frigate, fly an Ishkur tbh.
I don't like the Ishkur, i like the Worm, it's a drone 25/50 shield tanked ship with a Merlin hull. The Tears Must Flow |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:06:00 -
[614] - Quote
people is defending too much is ganking capabilities but are not taking in account how would be the counter for them |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:07:00 -
[615] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:I like using 5 drones on a frigate, i like micromanaging 5 drones plus 5 spares during fights, only having 2 active drones ruin the fun of this ship for me (the current Worm is my favorite ship of the game).
I don't share your enthusiasm for micromanaging drones mid-combat but I can understand it. However one persons joy at micromanaging drones is not a point that the Devs should use in balancing their game. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2214
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:07:00 -
[616] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:I like using 5 drones on a frigate, i like micromanaging 5 drones plus 5 spares during fights, only having 2 active drones ruin the fun of this ship for me (the current Worm is my favorite ship of the game). The Tristan, Ishkur and Astero are all 5 drone frigates and most can be shield fit fairly well.
The Worm was bad and dead the second crucible deployed with the updated Tristan. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:08:00 -
[617] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:
I've already answered this, being better is different from being fun, and for me the fun of the Worm is the fact you can use 5 drones with 5 spare on a shield tanked frigate.
I don't know, the fact that if I'm right I'll be doing ~215 DPS while still having top tier tank in the frigate class is going to be more fun than the slightly anemic Worm of now. The new Worm is, in terms of stats, objectively superior to the old one. More fitting, more DPS, (slightly) more tank, it's faster...
You don't seem to get it, i couldn't careless if the new Worm can do 300 dps, that's irrelevant for me, if i want to fly overpowered ships i would just go ahead and fly one. The fact that i can't use 5 drones and 5 spares ruin the fun of this ship for me. The Tears Must Flow |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
525
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:08:00 -
[618] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:of course it's bad. drones are supposed to be pretty much ewar-proof. Drones are pretty much EWAR proof, that doesn't mean they are supposed to be. I don't believe I have ever seen a Dev say that they want drones to be immune to EWAR.
that would make no sense. combat drones need love, not to be made less interesting and worse. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:09:00 -
[619] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:I like using 5 drones on a frigate, i like micromanaging 5 drones plus 5 spares during fights, only having 2 active drones ruin the fun of this ship for me (the current Worm is my favorite ship of the game). The Tristan, Ishkur and Astero are all 5 drone frigates and most can be shield fit fairly well. The Worm was bad and dead the second crucible deployed with the updated Tristan.
Bad for you, not for me, it's my favorite ship in the game. The Tears Must Flow |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
525
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:10:00 -
[620] - Quote
lol @ shield tristan, ishkur and astero |
|
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:10:00 -
[621] - Quote
Why nobody is talking about cruor ?
IT IS STILL BAD.
he will still have verry low DPS and EHP.
Minmatar and rocket ships will just rotfstomp it.
HE NEEDS +1 low slot
|
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures Rim Worlds Protectorate
27
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:12:00 -
[622] - Quote
seriously, this.
AFs were deemed overpowered with half the current succubus afterburner bonus. This could really use an answer.
otherwise, i look forward to this web range bonused ashimmu. aside from the comet, faction frigs aren't really my thing.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:12:00 -
[623] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote: Being overpowered != of being fun. The current Worm with 25/50 drone configuration is a fun ship to fly.
You are one of like, 10 guys in all of EVE who think the current worm is 'fun'
edit: evidently including the developers. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
1168
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:14:00 -
[624] - Quote
Seems neat.
First impression is that the Succubus is going to fly like a shield Crusader - kinda neat to think about.
I worry that bonuses don't scale very well, though, and the Phantasm seems to get a bit shafted. Promotes a sig tank, but also an active shield tank at the same time with a pretty large base sig for a cruiser. Sigtanking + shield tanking /usually/ don't go hand in hand. It works on the Tengu since it can shoot at 90km and does nearly twice the DPS, but this bad boy is going to have to be in close. May work. AB bonus would be downright sexual on an armor doctrine, though - even up to BS size.
Cruor seems like a lovechild between a Hyena and Sentinel - maybe like a 5th child or something so it doesn't get quite the same love the first ones did - but that doesn't mean it's bad. 26km webs and if it gets all up on your grill it'll shut down ill-prepared turret ships/logis/ewar like woah.
The scaling will be a bit wonky on this, as well. Like just because the Ashimmu gets an old-school nos won't make it worth flying - it's still going to be trash-tier. Back in the day old style nos was super super OP, I'll give you that. But the meta back then was completely different. ASBs didn't exist, damps were super god tier, jams were super god tier, ludicrous speeds were everywhere, and all webs were 90%, and cruise hit small ships like a sack of bricks. I'm not saying the nos bonus is bad, per se, but I honestly don't think it'll be enough to make the Ashimmu worth flying like, ever.
Worm is neat. Maybe OP neat - 8 effective drones is a lot of effective drones considering you can only reduce the incoming DPS if you kill 4 effective drones in one go. Like if I did 3 drones worth of damage to one yoked out Worm drone I'd still be getting blasted in the face with 8 drones worth of deeps. Cool none the less.
Scaling wise, the Gila lost favor over the Ishtar for a few reasons. Ishtar had really ******..kinda everything, but mostly CPU and tank. It simply couldn't do the same DEEPS as a Gila. Then the new and imporved Ishtar came along and had beastmode drones and effective tank in the MWD/sig bonus thing. Sentries that could track as well as a cruiser, but deal enough damage (at range) as a battleship, while being moderately survivable. Bingo.
As for Rattlesnake vs Domi - again the Domi does more effective DPS from 0-~70km ( Domi - Garde II - 50km optimal, .057 tracking vs RS - Curator II - 52.5 km optimal, .024 tracking), but the RS does have a bigger tank (at the expense of a nearly 80% higher sig when both are fit). Scaling wise, at the BS level the 4% resist bonus is significant. The fact that Domis get [b]140% better tracking[/b[, however, does complicate things for sure.
With regards to the Serpentis ships - I'm with you that the Daredevil is good. The web bonus is nice, it deals huge amounts of deeps, and is dead sexy.
Angels, too, are right on par. I think the combination Dram-Cynabal-Mach is far and away the best in terms of balance and usefulness of all the pirate races. Some races have one or two really nice ones, but all three of these seem to fit a great niche.
Right now if I were to rank the collective pirate races on their ship it would be
Angel > Serpentis >> Guristas >>> Sansha > Blood
Post patch it would probably be (assuming the same changes are made to the cruiser and bs hulls)
Angel > Serpentis > Guristas > Sansha >> Blood.
Same order, just smaller gaps.
Excited to spend more time fiddling with the fits and playing around with them on SiSi, though.
~ |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:14:00 -
[625] - Quote
Yazzinra wrote:
AFs were deemed overpowered with half the current succubus afterburner bonus. This could really use an answer.
They also have a much higher resist profile and higher damage output as well, whereas this particular ship has none of that. Those two things combined to make it just too much on the AF hull. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:14:00 -
[626] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:of course it's bad. drones are supposed to be pretty much ewar-proof. Drones are pretty much EWAR proof, that doesn't mean they are supposed to be. I don't believe I have ever seen a Dev say that they want drones to be immune to EWAR. that would make no sense. combat drones need love, not to be made less interesting and worse.
Combat drones might need a little love. Different and interesting bonuses are a step in that direction. Not having them get one shot by smart bombs is a buff imo. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:15:00 -
[627] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Aglais wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:
I've already answered this, being better is different from being fun, and for me the fun of the Worm is the fact you can use 5 drones with 5 spare on a shield tanked frigate.
I don't know, the fact that if I'm right I'll be doing ~215 DPS while still having top tier tank in the frigate class is going to be more fun than the slightly anemic Worm of now. The new Worm is, in terms of stats, objectively superior to the old one. More fitting, more DPS, (slightly) more tank, it's faster... You don't seem to get it, i couldn't careless if the new Worm can do 300 dps, that's irrelevant for me, if i want to fly overpowered ships i would just go ahead and fly one. The fact that i can't use 5 drones and 5 spares ruin the fun of this ship for me.
Can I have yours then? |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:21:00 -
[628] - Quote
still on the side that Sansha ships should have a tracking disruption bonus instead of the AB bonus, yeah you can get good speeds with the AB but get webbed and the show stops, while with the other you get webbed but the enemy has its optimal and tracking ****** so it will be hard for it to get you, in fact, if you can get it tracking jammed before you're sold.... |
Seamus Donohue
EVE University Ivy League
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:22:00 -
[629] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty "Role Bonus: Energy Vampires always operate regardless of how much capacitor you and your target have." Survivor of Teskanen. -áFan of John Rourke.
I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE |
Victoria Thorne
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 01:41:00 -
[630] - Quote
I like the new Worm. It's interesting & different without looking OP. The old one was meh.
I've also always wanted a reason to fly the Phantasm. I'm curious about the exact stats, but I think I might shortly have a reason to fly one... |
|
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1748
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:04:00 -
[631] - Quote
tbh i was hopping it would go this way for guritas and blood.
blood would scale with the new drone/neut docterine so no more lazor bonus but mixed drone/nuet bonus
guritas would gain a drone tracking/optimal range or tracking/speed bonus and loose the missile range bonus.
................................................................. with old school nos and good drone damage the Ashimmu would be really neat for pvp and would scale nice up to the bs.
think for the worm instead of missile damage bonus or range we get tracking and speed for drones
for the gila it gets a tracking and speed bonus and the snake gets a tracking and optimal range bonus. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:20:00 -
[632] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:tbh i was hopping it would go this way for guritas and blood.
blood would scale with the new drone/neut docterine so no more lazor bonus but mixed drone/nuet bonus
guritas would gain a drone tracking/optimal range or tracking/speed bonus and loose the missile range bonus.
................................................................. with old school nos and good drone damage the Ashimmu would be really neat for pvp and would scale nice up to the bs.
think for the worm instead of missile damage bonus or range we get tracking and speed for drones
for the gila it gets a tracking and speed bonus and the snake gets a tracking and optimal range bonus. Honestly I'd prefer the Guristas be in some way unique in comparison with the Gallente beyond being just shield tanked. |
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
10
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:23:00 -
[633] - Quote
"WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)"
Does this include rockets and light missiles? it's ambiguous the way it is written.
Thanks. |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:28:00 -
[634] - Quote
Darth Felin wrote:Cruor need additional low instead of high badly. It is hard almost impossible to tank it, at least for armor. You can also move highslot to medium so we will have another shield tanker. Currently it is neither nor and to be honest you just don't need second nos with such bonus
Also worm is looking really boring, it is cool to have bonus for light drones on gila and medium on rattlesnake but it is just don't scale to the worm level, imho it is better to make something outstanding for it. For example give him 5 drones / leage dronebay and bonus to utility drones (web,ecm etc... maybe even remote repair ones too) instead of bonus to combat drones and it will be cool support for frigate fleets
The issue lies more in range; if you have range dictation and dps denial, you don't necessarily need a largish tank. What would be ideal would be getting rid of the web bonuses entirely and swapping them for neut range. I do very much like what they did with upgrading how the nos works on these; that'll be very interesting to follow. |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
204
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:35:00 -
[635] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:One observation about the Vindicator, I have yet to make an Amarr fit that beats it on Singularity. Lets be honest its bonus to hybrid turrets is actually only a bonus to blasters, because that's what the web bonus is most useful for. So either its just me (totally possible, I haven't tried a billion fits against the vindi, more like 5), or that web+damage bonus double-jab always turns into a knockout. Because it can hold the target down, get into optimal on its shotguns and then unleash hell, all while the tied down ships can't do anything against it (a bhaal with 4 turrets and 3 neuts can't take the vindi, because the vindi can get of several salvos for every cap charge and the webs take almost no cap to cycle so timing is easy). So I would like the damage bonus to be scaled back just a tiny bit. So that other pirate ships when going head to head against the vindi, can actually have a small chance of getting through the armor in time. Btw, why on earth does the vindi have two launcher slots? And why on earth does the bhaal has turret slots at all when its purpose is neuting? All the other pirate battleships does DPS WAAY better than the bhaal, so might as well remove the dps from the bhaal. No one ever fields a bhaal with anything else than neuts. If you want it to have DPS at all give the bhaal a 700% damage bonus and have 1 turret slot, then a bhaal with dps would be fielded.
Please add some NEW ships also, I'm dying for an abaddon-hull pirate ship that is focused on raw beam weapon melting power (as opposed to the vindi blaster melting power). I suggest range penalty with extreme tracking bonus, and damage multiplier bonus, and 4 turrets with 100% damage bonus instead of a cap usage bonus. Give it 4 high slots, 5 mids and 8 lows, with 800 cargo space (for cap charges, all the cap charges in the universe!).
I have a 1500+ dps Navy Armageddon that will crush any Vindi 1 on 1. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
303
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:37:00 -
[636] - Quote
The two light drone thing is ingenious on the worm, looks like transforming it to an amazingly useful little ship.
It works with the lights becasue they will usually be close to the Worm allowing re-docking when suffering damage and potentially even RR whilst staying in the fight.
10/10 on the Worm.
On the other hand applying the same trick to the Rattlesnake with heavy drones will not work, you would need to either remake the Rattler as a super close range brawler or give the heavies a massive speed buff for them to even have a slight hope of staying alive fighting at the ranges a Rattle will typically fire from. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:49:00 -
[637] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:On the other hand applying the same trick to the Rattlesnake with heavy drones will not work, you would need to either remake the Rattler as a super close range brawler or give the heavies a massive speed buff for them to even have a slight hope of staying alive fighting at the ranges a Rattle will typically fire from.
The MWD Torp/Ogre II Rattler is already decent, with a similar rebalance they would be pretty good I think.
|
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
472
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 02:53:00 -
[638] - Quote
Dyscordia wrote:"WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)"
Does this include rockets and light missiles? it's ambiguous the way it is written.
Thanks.
It's all frigate missile systems generally, if it'sjust "missile damage".
I'm glad they threw in Thermal damage too at least instead of just Kinetic, even though I don't like bonuses like this that much. I'll take this one, this once. |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
204
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 03:11:00 -
[639] - Quote
Seamus Donohue wrote:CCP Rise wrote:note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty "Role Bonus: Energy Vampires always operate regardless of how much capacitor you and your target have."
If your opponent has no capacitor left the nos will not generate it out of thin air. I think someone mentioned a pretty accurate description already somewhere in the thread. I'm imagining a nos Ashimmu and it will be downright sexy! Oderint Dum Metuant |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1109
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 03:11:00 -
[640] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Yazzinra wrote:
AFs were deemed overpowered with half the current succubus afterburner bonus. This could really use an answer.
They also have a much higher resist profile and higher damage output as well, whereas this particular ship has none of that. Those two things combined to make it just too much on the AF hull.
They also only had a 50% bonus, instead of 100% bonus.
The succubus is going to have the speed of a snaked, linked dramiel, without being snaked or linked. |
|
Raine Marelwe
Republic University Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 03:27:00 -
[641] - Quote
Personally, I'll be very disappointed if the best they can do to give Guristas a 'unique' feel is "Kinda' droneboat+3".
Please, please don't sacrifice these hulls on the altar of 'lol, lets see if the playerbase will swallow this ham-fisted solution to drone-induced server strain during large player battles'. You already butchered the Rattlesnake with the sentry nerfs. It will be YEARS before you come back to undo the damage if/when these changes prove to be underwhelming and/or boring.
In the interest of not shooting down an idea without at least offering an alternative, I think it would be VERY interesting if there were some hulls dedicated to making the full EWAR drone lineup really dangerous. Of course, such ships would obviously want to launch more drones, not fewer. To that end, I can't see a compelling reason not to give Guristas ships the ability to launch some extra drones, like the G-Vexor: These hulls are not spent in sovwar blobs - it's not economical - so server load shouldn't really be an issue.
Right now, these ships feel schizophrenic, trying to juggle tank, missile, and drone bonuses. Drop the missile focus (which encourages more creative use of the highs. Wouldn't Gallente-Caldari combo hulls favor hybrids, anyway?) and replace it with a drone velocity bonus, or a bonus to max drones launched, or a significant bonus to EWAR drone effectiveness. Then consider dropping the drone damage bonus for another one of those same options.
Let the Gallente drone boats be the fragile DPS platforms - use this rebalance as an opportunity to introduce a truly unique ship type: The indomitable EWAR drone-boat.
P.S. - While you're at it, feel free to experiment with warp-disruption drones. |
light heaven
JUST SET TIMES Fraternity.
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 03:40:00 -
[642] - Quote
angel ship is OP, so still a little buff to dramiel. Rise you want to make the best ship to be much more popular? |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1109
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 03:41:00 -
[643] - Quote
Raine Marelwe wrote:. Drop the missile focus (which encourages more creative use of the highs. Wouldn't Gallente-Caldari combo hulls favor hybrids, anyway?)
You dont have to use the missile bonus
|
Methonash Qorranto
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 03:44:00 -
[644] - Quote
Raine Marelwe wrote: P.S. - While you're at it, feel free to experiment with warp-disruption drones.
Woah there, cowboy.
|
Raine Marelwe
Republic University Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 03:47:00 -
[645] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Raine Marelwe wrote:. Drop the missile focus (which encourages more creative use of the highs. Wouldn't Gallente-Caldari combo hulls favor hybrids, anyway?) You dont have to use the missile bonus
You must have 'missing the point' trained to V.
Methonash Qorranto wrote: Woah there, cowboy.
What, does this concept make you more uncomfortable than interdiction spheres or infinipoints? Why shouldn't we have them? They'd suffer from travel time (especially if they only existed in heavy-size), they'd be individually destructible, and you'd have to sacrifice launched drone 'slots' & bandwidth to use them. Plenty of potential balancing factors, imo. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1110
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:05:00 -
[646] - Quote
Raine Marelwe wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Raine Marelwe wrote:. Drop the missile focus (which encourages more creative use of the highs. Wouldn't Gallente-Caldari combo hulls favor hybrids, anyway?) You dont have to use the missile bonus You must have 'missing the point' trained to V.
How does "enabling more options" translate to "less creative fittings" |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc.
77
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:15:00 -
[647] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35
im not sure how it will effect fleet fights but when i look at it 1vs1 i would say the web range is way overpowered on the first look.24k heated meta 4 web long point 24km? |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:19:00 -
[648] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:CCP Rise wrote:CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35
im not sure how it will effect fleet fights but when i look at it 1vs1 i would say the web range is way overpowered on the first look.24k heated meta 4 web long point 24km?
And ? you dont have really any dps or tank with this hull to own anything more than some laser users, by shutting down their cap. This thing really needs a low slot not a bonused range web, or it will be a hyiena with neuts - still crappy |
Raine Marelwe
Republic University Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:19:00 -
[649] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Raine Marelwe wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Raine Marelwe wrote:. Drop the missile focus (which encourages more creative use of the highs. Wouldn't Gallente-Caldari combo hulls favor hybrids, anyway?) You dont have to use the missile bonus You must have 'missing the point' trained to V. How does "enabling more options" translate to "less creative fittings"
Again, you had to go to some length to crop my post enough to be able to miss the point this thoroughly (and I have since edited the original to avoid similar derping), nonetheless, I'll bite:
It is a function of opportunity cost. You seem to be the type to noisily proclaim that "Minerals I mine are FREEEEE!!", while blissfully ignorant of the fact that almost every decision anyone makes represents the sacrifice of an alternative. In this particular case, no new option has been 'enabled', as you put it; merely an old one has been 'subsidized'. This means that every other option is comparatively less attractive, as you now must sacrifice more (in the form of potential bonus missile damage) to take advantage of other available options. |
Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
93
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:30:00 -
[650] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:A couple more clarifications:
I said 'old nos' in the OP but that can be a bit confusing considering there has been a few different versions. The description provided by bobfrommarketing (I think thats who it was) is very accurate - "Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level". So, it will NOT continue to generate cap when your target is empty, it just doesn't have the same limitation has normal nos where you must have less cap than your target. It's been mentioned that the missile damage bonus on the Worm doesn't make sense as a Gallente bonus and should be on the role bonus. I agree that it would be ideal to have it that way in terms of flavor but giving a 60% per level bonus would mean that the ship was basically unusable until you had Gallente Frigate 5 and we really don't like that. And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places. In the post I quoted above I just meant to highlight that we are not limited to 300% for the other Guristas ships, but again, let's talk about those when we get to them.
This clarification is great, thank you Rise. Gurista is one of my favorite pirate factions and while I loved the changes for the worm (No, seriously, does this mean that the worms hob's will have almost as much EHP as the ship they're slaved too?) I was concerned about the fate of the Gila and Rattler. Now not so much.
As awesome as having old NOS is the wording for it could definitely be clearer.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
Ummm.... Rise, your face is ugly and your changes to Angel ships are bland and unoriginal? Im sorry, Im not very good at this sort of thing! (Your face is fine btw, Im sorry! I didnt mean it!) |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:35:00 -
[651] - Quote
Raine Marelwe wrote: Again, you had to go to some length to crop my post enough to be able to miss the point this thoroughly (and I have since edited the original to avoid similar derping), nonetheless, I'll bite:
It is a function of opportunity cost. You seem to be the type to noisily proclaim that "Minerals I mine are FREEEEE!!", while blissfully ignorant of the fact that almost every decision anyone makes represents the sacrifice of an alternative. In this particular case, no new option has been 'enabled', as you put it; merely an old one has been 'subsidized'. This means that every other option is comparatively less attractive, as you now must sacrifice more (in the form of potential bonus missile damage) to take advantage of other available options.
Opportunity costs doesn't apply to purpose build fitting the way you are using it. If you need to give something up to accomplish a purpose with a fit you do that because regardless of what fitting options may be bonused, if they detract from your fitting goal they are completely unattractive even though incentivized.
So far as highslot configs, so long as the missile slots remain, even if unbonused we likely won't see any less preference for them than current as people looking for more damage will still gravitate towards it and people looking for utility won't be bothered. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:38:00 -
[652] - Quote
Raine Marelwe wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Raine Marelwe wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Raine Marelwe wrote:. Drop the missile focus (which encourages more creative use of the highs. Wouldn't Gallente-Caldari combo hulls favor hybrids, anyway?) You dont have to use the missile bonus You must have 'missing the point' trained to V. How does "enabling more options" translate to "less creative fittings" Again, you had to go to some length to crop my post enough to be able to miss the point this thoroughly (and I have since edited the original to avoid similar derping), nonetheless, I'll bite: It is a function of opportunity cost. You seem to be the type to noisily proclaim that "Minerals I mine are FREEEEE!!", while blissfully ignorant of the fact that almost every decision anyone makes represents the sacrifice of an alternative. In this particular case, no new option has been 'enabled', as you put it; merely an old one has been 'subsidized'. This means that every other option is comparatively less attractive, as you now must sacrifice more (in the form of potential bonus missile damage) to take advantage of other available options.
suggested something similar to what you said (and several other possible versions), but its deaf ears, these people want their overpowered drone frigate.....they want a ship that counts as 3 instead of a balanced ship with a normal 5 drone flight that can actually be countered..... |
Methonash Qorranto
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:40:00 -
[653] - Quote
Raine Marelwe wrote: What, does this concept make you more uncomfortable than interdiction spheres or infinipoints? Why shouldn't we have them? They'd suffer from travel time (especially if they only existed in heavy-size), they'd be individually destructible, and you'd have to sacrifice launched drone 'slots' & bandwidth to use them. Plenty of potential balancing factors, imo.
In short, yes - I am unsettled.
The concept of warp-disrupting/scramming drones is so far "out there", right now, that even if it *were* to be considered seriously, it would take a whole 'nother patch cycle to begin deliberation and subsequent implementation for.
Suggesting something like warp scram/disrupting drones in this thread is like screaming into the Void - such posts would better fit into their own respective feature request/idea thread. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:43:00 -
[654] - Quote
Kel hound wrote: This clarification is great, thank you Rise. Gurista is one of my favorite pirate factions and while I loved the changes for the worm (No, seriously, does this mean that the worms hob's will have almost as much EHP as the ship they're slaved too?) I was concerned about the fate of the Gila and Rattler. Now not so much.
I am not the best at this sort of thing... But I believe the drones will each have somewhere in the neighborhood of double the raw hitpoints of the ship they are launched from. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:51:00 -
[655] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Kel hound wrote: This clarification is great, thank you Rise. Gurista is one of my favorite pirate factions and while I loved the changes for the worm (No, seriously, does this mean that the worms hob's will have almost as much EHP as the ship they're slaved too?) I was concerned about the fate of the Gila and Rattler. Now not so much.
I am not the best at this sort of thing... But I believe the drones will each have somewhere in the neighborhood of double the raw hitpoints of the ship they are launched from. Should make the shield tanked drones have some impressive passive tank. I would not be surprised if this is why they suddenly felt it neccessary to 'adjust' regen rates on drones. May be doing this wrong, but a Hob II shows 3396 raw HP after skills vs the worm's 2437.5.
Edit: Was wrong on the hob, it only has 2830. Drone durability is only 5%/lvl, not 10%. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
338
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:55:00 -
[656] - Quote
Dang that worm is going to be pretty hardcore. The bonuses seem off. Gallente getting the bonus to Missiles seems weird. I think that for the sake of tradition you should change the bonuses to.
Gallente Frigate bonus 60% Drone Hit points/Damage per level (used to be 5m3/level)
Role Bonus 50% DMG bonus for Therm and Kin Missile Damage.
Reasoning: No other Gallente ship has a missile bonus. Caldari ships do. Since the spot is used by another common Caldari bonus it fits the role bonus.
Secondly the Drones will make up the majority of the damage fielded by the Worm is coming from its drones (pre and post change) I don't think this is something someone should just get for sitting in a ship. In order to achieve the maximum damage the bonus should be based on the level of Gallente Frigate. I think this would help keep the worm in more balance with the other faction frigates, as well as promote the idea of maximizing the frigate skill for optimal damage.
I don't think giving away max damage like that is a good idea. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 04:58:00 -
[657] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Reasoning: No other Gallente ship has a missile bonus. Lachesis, though I guess technically it's not attached to the Gal cruiser skill |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
338
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 05:01:00 -
[658] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Reasoning: No other Gallente ship has a missile bonus. Lachesis, though I guess technically it's not attached to the Gal cruiser skill
Hmm yess I forgot about the ole lach and missiles. Good catch.
Still though I think it makes more sense the way i listed it. I dunno minor nitpick I guess. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 05:03:00 -
[659] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 15% to drone damage and hitpoints
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to drone tracking, optimal falloff and microwarpdrive speed
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 2 turrets, 2 launchers (unbonused)
drone bandwidth/drone bay : 25/50
say what you want i dont care, you're gonna just keep supporting that bad design anyways.........
100% aditional bonus to damage and hitpoints at lvl V, along with a bonus for the other statistics, 5 drones avaliable and space for an aditional flight.... 2 turret hardpoints added for people to choose other support weapons if they dont want to mess with missiles. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 05:03:00 -
[660] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Kel hound wrote: This clarification is great, thank you Rise. Gurista is one of my favorite pirate factions and while I loved the changes for the worm (No, seriously, does this mean that the worms hob's will have almost as much EHP as the ship they're slaved too?) I was concerned about the fate of the Gila and Rattler. Now not so much.
I am not the best at this sort of thing... But I believe the drones will each have somewhere in the neighborhood of double the raw hitpoints of the ship they are launched from. Should make the shield tanked drones have some impressive passive tank. I would not be surprised if this is why they suddenly felt it neccessary to 'adjust' regen rates on drones. May be doing this wrong, but a Hob II shows 3396 raw HP after skills vs the worm's 2437.5. Edit: Was wrong on the hob, it only has 2830. Drone durability is only 5%/lvl, not 10%.
Right. I forgot the effects of the various tanking skills on the hull itself. I was thinking it would have around 2000 raw HP.
So each drone will be roughly equal to its mothership
|
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4926
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 05:07:00 -
[661] - Quote
I'll throw in my 2 cents since I sometimes use these ship and fight them...
Succubus: I like it... the AB bonus combined with laser tracking will make this into a fine brawler ship. I do have some concerns about the the degree of the AB bonus though. I remember there being many complaints about Assault Frigates having this bonus when they were set to have it. Maybe it should be throttled back a bit to 10 or 15% AB speed per level?
Cruor: I LOVE that the proposed Nos ability on it.... It will certainly help when active tanking and also alleviate some of issues I've had with maintaining cap on a cap hungry ship (neuts, lasers, scram, web, and prop-mod). But the web range bonus doesn't seem to have jive with it. How useful is web range when a Nos can only reach out about 7km (at most)? And don't think I missed that new drone bay you added! Yay! MOAR DAMAGE!!
Worm: I'm excitedly looking forward to this one. All the Worm REALLY needed to be useful was some more CPU and PG and a damage bonus... but the 300% damage/hp bonus for 2 drones gives this a really interesting flavor that I would like to see in action.
Daredevil: No opinions on it. I never found a way to make it work quite right but I largely chalk that up to my own lack of skill and imagination.
Dramiel: I see you have reduced its cap recharge time, agility, and align time in addition to its sig radius... interesting.
Overall, I'm happy with the changes. I would like to see a bit more locking range on all of them though... pwetty prease? Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
CW Itovuo
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
17
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 05:22:00 -
[662] - Quote
Rise -
I really like where you're going with the Succubus and Cruor, as well as the 'absolute NOS'. I hope the Phantasm and Nightmare will have similar buffs when their day comes. Those ships are among the most unique looking hulls in the game, and have long been ignored by the community due to price/performance.
In general, I'd like to see more unique designs and less "rebadged Merlins".
I like the changes enough to almost forgive you for foxing up Rapid Lights. Almost.
|
Storm Novah
Yada Industries
21
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 06:04:00 -
[663] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
*snip*
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Slot layout: 3H(-1), 4M, 3L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2)
Just wanna touch on the major thing that really bothers me about the changes to the succubus. I have no issue with dropping a high slot... I understand and actually agree with it. What I don't understand is why you put it on the lows? I know everyone is going to jump in and be like "damage mods duh" but seriously... who needs 3 damage mods on a frigate that has the kind of damage bonus this one has on the hull already? I think the extra slot would be more beneficial to the mid slots due to the adding of the AB bonus which will practically guarantee anyone fitting a succubus will def be using an AB. Just my thoughts. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 06:18:00 -
[664] - Quote
Storm Novah wrote:Just wanna touch on the major thing that really bothers me about the changes to the succubus. I have no issue with dropping a high slot... I understand and actually agree with it. What I don't understand is why you put it on the lows? I know everyone is going to jump in and be like "damage mods duh" but seriously... who needs 3 damage mods on a frigate that has the kind of damage bonus this one has on the hull already? I think the extra slot would be more beneficial to the mid slots due to the adding of the AB bonus which will practically guarantee anyone fitting a succubus will def be using an AB. Just my thoughts.
TE's, Nanos, OD's, Heat Sinks, DCU, CPU Upgrades, reactor controls, PDU's or an outside the box armor tank. Plenty of use for 3 lows. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
720
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 06:38:00 -
[665] - Quote
The Worm changes suck for a couple reasons.
The overall DPS is OP. The weird idea of small numbers of over powered drones is just being different for the sake of being different. Dones are already an odd-ball weapon system, and this just confuses them even more.
Also, split weapons suck. The Worm should be a drone boat, so just go with already established Gallente drone bonuses. HP, damage, velocity would all be fine for the Worm without getting into bizarro bonuses. Just keep it with 5 lights, and give it a fixed 10 or 15m3 bay.
Just drop the missile bonus completely. The flavor for the ship says it is supposed to have e-war bonus. If ECM isn't going to be a thing any more, then give it a scram range bonus. That would make the Worm a nice tanky tackle frigate that could put out some decent drone damage in a way that everyone is familiar with. The scram range would help make up for the ships lack of speed.
So...
Gallente Frigate skill = 10%/level drone HP/damage/velocity
Caldari Frigate skill = 4%/level shield resists
hull bonus = 50% range to scram/disruptor
Go ahead an leave the missile slots in the highs if some one wants to use them. Maybe remove a high slot and add a mid slot.
But please forget about the small-number/over-powered drone idea for Guristas. It will either get abused in drone assists, or it will make them less popular because they'll be too easy to lose a big chunk of DPS. If they don't look good compared to the rebalanced Gallente ships, then just add the new bonuses that you added to Gallente. Add tracking, optimal range, velocity, control range, etc. to the Gila and Rattlesnake instead of making them some terrible split weapon boats with bonuses that aren't comparable to any other ship in the game. |
Enzaki
Phantom Squad DARKNESS.
19
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 06:42:00 -
[666] - Quote
the way you posted ship info is a bit **** :P
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed (is that pr lvl or one time bonus) ?????????????? in old days it say per level and now it dont may **** new player over on that one
looool
|
Nam Ster
Surreal corp Darkness of Despair
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 06:53:00 -
[667] - Quote
for the WORM, why not include the logistics drones over in that bonus - that would increase the way of using the ship.
The way you changing it - it still will be underused, since you basically not changing it at all by making it still a pew-pew-boat of doubtful purpose - there are plenty of such already. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2812
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 06:57:00 -
[668] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:because if my dps is in 2 drones, what happens if someone webs one and stops it getting within 8km? Brawl and scoop.
Oh god. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2812
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 06:59:00 -
[669] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:because it's a 25/50 drone shield tank frigate. It seems like the 25/50 part is the only issue for you and I have no idea why.
Silivar Karkun wrote:not gonna keep arguing about the bonuses, but think of it from the victim standpoint, wouldnt those dronesbe too hard (if not impossible) to destroy?, basically you're fighting 1v3, no imagine a small group of 3 worms, those are 16 drones worth of DPS right there.....so its like getting ganked by 9 ships... (3 ships each worm) With the bonuses you want, it would be like getting ganked by 18 ships. The trauma for victims would be unimaginable. Oh god. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2805
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 07:17:00 -
[670] - Quote
Buy your Cruors now, folks. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
|
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
464
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 07:25:00 -
[671] - Quote
Storm Novah wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
*snip*
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Slot layout: 3H(-1), 4M, 3L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2)
Just wanna touch on the major thing that really bothers me about the changes to the succubus. I have no issue with dropping a high slot... I understand and actually agree with it. What I don't understand is why you put it on the lows?.
Because that requires you to actually think about the ship your balancing for more than a 30 minute lunch break. How else does that explain the lack of inspired bonuses and roles being thrown out as balancing. Great another super fast kitey frigate, we sure don't have many of those.
|
Yankunytjatjara
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
104
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 07:26:00 -
[672] - Quote
Awesome my year plus long investment in pirate ships will finally pay off.
Insert Rage Here: you promised this buff before the last AT argh argh
A bit of feedback: why leaving the special blood bonus vamps only? There'd be a cool thing for neuts too: their neuts could be immune to special effects too, like cap batteries. My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2027
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 07:39:00 -
[673] - Quote
Can we talk about the Cruor still being garbage?
Or the Succubus having a ****** tracking bonus that is no way as useful as any other bonus you could give it? BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 07:42:00 -
[674] - Quote
Dear CCP Rise,
Please don't pre-nerf the Worm like you did with the Stratios. Thanks! |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
381
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 08:14:00 -
[675] - Quote
To these people complaining about the Worm with only two drones. You guys aren't getting it. It's not a "gimmick". It's actually a very interesting concept.
The new Worm is essentially 3 ships. You have your main ship (the hull) and your two buddies (the drones) who are essentially attack frigates without EWAR.
This means it feels like you're in a small gang when flying solo in a Worm.
This concept being applied to the Gila and the Rattlesnake is extremely interesting. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2027
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 08:28:00 -
[676] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:To these people complaining about the Worm with only two drones. You guys aren't getting it. It's not a "gimmick". It's actually a very interesting concept.
The new Worm is essentially 3 ships. You have your main ship (the hull) and your two buddies (the drones) who are essentially attack frigates without EWAR.
This means it feels like you're in a small gang when flying solo in a Worm.
This concept being applied to the Gila and the Rattlesnake is extremely interesting.
What are you on? O.o BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Kaeda Maxwell
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
286
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 08:36:00 -
[677] - Quote
They look mostly fine to me, the only thing I do not like about the succubus is the implication that bonus has for webs applied against it. I know you can't balance for solo and tiny gangs but the new succubus would be exceptionally hard to apply any significant damage against without at least 2 webs on it. So I have some mild fear you're re-introducing the old pre nerf dramiel only this time with cool spikes.
Other then that to the people talking about the cruor neut range, I'd like to remind you all neuts can be used defensively as well as offensively.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2806
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 08:41:00 -
[678] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Can we talk about the Cruor still being garbage?
Or the Succubus having a ****** tracking bonus that is no way as useful as any other bonus you could give it?
The Cruor can now web out to Scorch range. If you consider that to be "garbage", then I can't help you.
The only other frigate that can do this is the... chuckle... Hyena. Which may as well not exist in comparison. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Sushi Nardieu
Encapsulated.
241
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 08:56:00 -
[679] - Quote
Kmelx wrote: If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web.
Quite agree with this point. The 90% web is very absolute. In the sense that, it just stops your ship.
On the otherhand, I think keeping that 'special-ness' of pirate ships is a very valid criteria in rebalance.
Perhaps a small nerf will be enough to make dreadbought blapping difficult, while keeping the intended idea of bonused web strength alive. The Guns of Knowledge-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2806
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:03:00 -
[680] - Quote
Sushi Nardieu wrote:Kmelx wrote: If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web.
Quite agree with this point. The 90% web is very absolute. In the sense that, it just stops your ship. On the otherhand, I think keeping that 'special-ness' of pirate ships is a very valid criteria in rebalance. Perhaps a small nerf will be enough to make dreadbought blapping difficult, while keeping the intended idea of bonused web strength alive.
I really don't know why people get so upset over the bonused webs thing.
The entire ability is basically: "Get one extra midslot if you have a webifier equipped, that slot can only be used for webifiers".
Two T2 webs does the exact same thing. It's just an extra midslot, that isn't even as good as an extra midslot.
This is nowhere close to the big deal that some people would like you to believe. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
|
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
721
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:07:00 -
[681] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:To these people complaining about the Worm with only two drones. You guys aren't getting it. It's not a "gimmick". It's actually a very interesting concept.
The new Worm is essentially 3 ships. You have your main ship (the hull) and your two buddies (the drones) who are essentially attack frigates without EWAR.
This means it feels like you're in a small gang when flying solo in a Worm.
This concept being applied to the Gila and the Rattlesnake is extremely interesting.
The is pretty much how all drone boats work. The reason this is a dumb gimmick is the other comparable drone boats get 5 buddies instead of just 2. And they also offer other nice bonuses to your buddies, like more speed, better tracking, along with more damage and hitpoints. I'd still take an Ishtar over a similarly buffed Gila, because the Ishtar will get me almost as much raw dps, and give me faster heavies or better range on sentries. And more control range without having to eat into CPU using a drone link augmenter.
Regular drone boats are also more durable, in that an enemy has to lock and kill 5 drones instead of just 2. Kill 1 drone from a regular drone boat fielding 5 drones, and you knock out 20% of the dps. Kill 1 of the Worm's drones, and you cut the dps by 50%.
It is a dumb idea. I would rather have velocity and tracking bonuses so my drones could actually get to and hit other frigates. Those work well on the other drone boats, so they should just apply them to the Worm.
Edit;
Also, the Gallente frigate skill gives bonus to missile damage? How does that make any sense? So not only does this ship have really weird drone bonus, but the Gallente skill buffs missiles of all things.
Gallente skills for Gallente drone bonuses. Caldari skills for Caldari shield resists. And the hull bonus should be for e-war. |
Kaeda Maxwell
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
286
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:17:00 -
[682] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sushi Nardieu wrote:Kmelx wrote: If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web.
Quite agree with this point. The 90% web is very absolute. In the sense that, it just stops your ship. On the otherhand, I think keeping that 'special-ness' of pirate ships is a very valid criteria in rebalance. Perhaps a small nerf will be enough to make dreadbought blapping difficult, while keeping the intended idea of bonused web strength alive. Two T2 webs does the exact same thing. It's just an extra midslot, that isn't even as good as an extra midslot.
No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%.
|
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
381
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:17:00 -
[683] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:To these people complaining about the Worm with only two drones. You guys aren't getting it. It's not a "gimmick". It's actually a very interesting concept.
The new Worm is essentially 3 ships. You have your main ship (the hull) and your two buddies (the drones) who are essentially attack frigates without EWAR.
This means it feels like you're in a small gang when flying solo in a Worm.
This concept being applied to the Gila and the Rattlesnake is extremely interesting. What are you on? O.o
Those light drones with 300% HP bonus are gonna be as tough as attack frigates. Add a drone durability rig and they will be almost impossible to kill.... they will also be hitting very hard. It will be like having an extra 2 ships with you |
Lugalzagezi666
218
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:29:00 -
[684] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I really don't know why people get so upset over the bonused webs thing.
The entire ability is basically: "Get one extra midslot if you have a webifier equipped, that slot can only be used for webifiers".
Two T2 webs does the exact same thing. It's just an extra midslot, that isn't even as good as an extra midslot.
This is nowhere close to the big deal that some people would like you to believe.
You dont really know, because you are clueless. 90% web is equivalent to FOUR t2 webs. That basically means full stop to the target and complete range dictation. What is worse, it also means that big guns (even xl) can easily hit small targets, because they are almost standing still - especially if you apply 2 or more 90% webs, effect, that cannot be done with 60% webs at all, because of stacking penalty.
And cruor is bad. Neut bonus absolutely doesnt synergize with web range bonus and to actually deal any amount of meaningful damage to use its web range it becomes papertank with 1 useless bonus and 2 useless "troll" highs. In such state it doesnt have any wider target selection than 5-10x less expensive slicer or retribution and all it can do with its web is gtfo from all the things that would tear its paper tank apart. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2808
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:34:00 -
[685] - Quote
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sushi Nardieu wrote:Kmelx wrote: If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web.
Quite agree with this point. The 90% web is very absolute. In the sense that, it just stops your ship. On the otherhand, I think keeping that 'special-ness' of pirate ships is a very valid criteria in rebalance. Perhaps a small nerf will be enough to make dreadbought blapping difficult, while keeping the intended idea of bonused web strength alive. Two T2 webs does the exact same thing. It's just an extra midslot, that isn't even as good as an extra midslot. No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%.
Stacking penalty for 2 mods is 87% off the second stack.
Quote:Neut bonus absolutely doesnt synergize with web range bonus
And? The web bonus alone is awesome. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:39:00 -
[686] - Quote
My serious observation Rise. The web range works wonders in the bhaalghorn because it matches the range of large neuts.
But in the ashimmu and cruor.. the neuts and NOS have too short range to bennefit from web range.
My feeling is that you are making 2 already underused ships weaker. My group is one of the few that use a lot the ashimmu and the web strength is what makes is useful the most
To make that work you need to tap a bit more on the blood raiders minmatar blood... give them a bit more speed. Otherwise the result will always be, they web first.. then they need to enter enemy 13 km range web range to use the other bonus. Then the enemy will web them as well and since blood raider ships are slow they can pull off to just outside 13 km (to avoid the neuts) .. restarting cycle.
That is a BAD situation that will become common.
So please.. a tad more speed for blood raiders.. please? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kaeda Maxwell
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
286
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:41:00 -
[687] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sushi Nardieu wrote:Kmelx wrote: If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web.
Quite agree with this point. The 90% web is very absolute. In the sense that, it just stops your ship. On the otherhand, I think keeping that 'special-ness' of pirate ships is a very valid criteria in rebalance. Perhaps a small nerf will be enough to make dreadbought blapping difficult, while keeping the intended idea of bonused web strength alive. Two T2 webs does the exact same thing. It's just an extra midslot, that isn't even as good as an extra midslot. No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%. Stacking penalty for 2 mods is 87% off the second stack.
A Dramiel doing 1952m/sec on AB after having a 90% web applied will go 195m/sec. A Dramiel doing 1952m/sec on AB after having 2 60% webs applied will go 374m/sec.
That is not as you just claimed the same. In fact the 90% web significantly better.
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:41:00 -
[688] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote: No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%.
Stacking penalty for 2 mods is 87% off the second stack. Quote:Neut bonus absolutely doesnt synergize with web range bonus And? The web bonus alone is awesome.
yes.. and the final speed is (100% * 0.6 ) -> 60 * 0.52 -> 31.2 In other words 68.8%
2 60% webs are MUCH MUCH weaker than 1 x 90% web.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:44:00 -
[689] - Quote
Storm Novah wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
*snip*
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Slot layout: 3H(-1), 4M, 3L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 33(+2)
Just wanna touch on the major thing that really bothers me about the changes to the succubus. I have no issue with dropping a high slot... I understand and actually agree with it. What I don't understand is why you put it on the lows? I know everyone is going to jump in and be like "damage mods duh" but seriously... who needs 3 damage mods on a frigate that has the kind of damage bonus this one has on the hull already? I think the extra slot would be more beneficial to the mid slots due to the adding of the AB bonus which will practically guarantee anyone fitting a succubus will def be using an AB. Just my thoughts.
From myemmory i dont think any frigate has 5 mids. THInk they fear it become an uber tackler.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:45:00 -
[690] - Quote
light heaven wrote:angel ship is OP, so still a little buff to dramiel. Rise you want to make the best ship to be much more popular?
The dramiel was already massively nerfed a few years ago. The cynabal was also nerfed but less. The OP angel platform peopel speak of is the machariel. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1308
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:46:00 -
[691] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:CCP Rise wrote:CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35
im not sure how it will effect fleet fights but when i look at it 1vs1 i would say the web range is way overpowered on the first look.24k heated meta 4 web long point 24km?
The new bonus is weaker than the old. Specially for the frigate. THe ship is a NOS boat. It needs to get within 7 km anyway.
If you wanted just web range you will use a Hyena
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2809
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:46:00 -
[692] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote: No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%.
Stacking penalty for 2 mods is 87% off the second stack. Quote:Neut bonus absolutely doesnt synergize with web range bonus And? The web bonus alone is awesome. yes.. and the final speed is (100% * 0.6 ) -> 60 * 0.52 -> 31.2 In other words 68.8% 2 60% webs are MUCH MUCH weaker than 1 x 90% web.
Yeah, I ****** up my order of operations on that one. Napkin math for you. You're drastically wrong with regards to yours, though. An additional web adds a whole lot more than another 9%.
Seems I was off by about 8% myself, in that 100m/s becomes 18.5-ish with two T2 webs on, compared to 10m/s with a 90% bonused web on.
As far as being blapped by dreads goes, however, I must say I think it to still be greatly exaggerated as to the severity. To pretty much ship but an "elite pvp solo" frigate, or maybe a Cynabal, the difference is miniscule.
Niche cases aren't something to nerf the Serpentis line over. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1309
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:52:00 -
[693] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Also I think the curor and succubus really dont need fitting nerfs.
That.. I dont hve a succubus but the cruor is already a pain to fit. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2809
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:54:00 -
[694] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Also I think the curor and succubus really dont need fitting nerfs. That.. I dont hve a succubus but the cruor is already a pain to fit.
Yeah, I gotta say I heartily agree. Their fitting was fine, in fact I'd have personally called it a bit on the low end. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1309
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:54:00 -
[695] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote: No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%.
Stacking penalty for 2 mods is 87% off the second stack. Quote:Neut bonus absolutely doesnt synergize with web range bonus And? The web bonus alone is awesome. yes.. and the final speed is (100% * 0.6 ) -> 60 * 0.52 -> 31.2 In other words 68.8% 2 60% webs are MUCH MUCH weaker than 1 x 90% web. Yeah, I ****** up my order of operations on that one. Napkin math for you. You're drastically wrong with regards to yours, though. An additional web adds a whole lot more than another 9%. Seems I was off by about 8% myself, in that 100m/s becomes 18.5-ish with two T2 webs on, compared to 10m/s with a 90% bonused web on. As far as being blapped by dreads goes, however, I must say I think it to still be greatly exaggerated as to the severity. To pretty much every ship but an "elite pvp solo" frigate, or maybe a Cynabal, the difference is miniscule. Niche cases aren't something to nerf the Serpentis line over.
Nothign wrong there .. except that the first part result is 40 not 60 : P. 87% of the 60% web is a 52.2% web.
The final should be rougly 20 ms. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1309
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:56:00 -
[696] - Quote
Yazzinra wrote:seriously, this. AFs were deemed overpowered with half the current succubus afterburner bonus. This could really use an answer. otherwise, i look forward to this web range bonused ashimmu. aside from the comet, faction frigs aren't really my thing.
The assault frigates are MUCH more powerful tankwise and are a in a broad selection. They were more powerful than the succubus by a long shot.
But I still would like more ships with some AB bonus :) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2809
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:59:00 -
[697] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Nothign wrong there .. except that the first part result is 40 not 60 : P. 87% of the 60% web is a 52.2% web.
The final should be rougly 20 ms.
Yeah, like I said my estimation was about 18.5. I shrugged and thought "8 m/s is nothing to get so upset over", at first. Even in cases of significant speed, it's not even really that significant of a difference.
It only helps "dreads", since that's what so much of the fuss appears to be about, shoot down psycho fast frigates. Anything else is equally dead, regardless if they got double webbed or bonused webbed.
Like I said though, that's a pretty niche case. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1310
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:59:00 -
[698] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:I like these changes in general, but I'm pretty meh on the Sansha changes.
For starters, the Succubus and the Phantasm both have pretty harsh cap problems in my experience. I saw a buff to the Succubus's cap, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.
Also, echoing what some others have said in this thread, we already have fast and hard to hit frigs in the form of the daredevil and the dramiel, I'm not sure making Sansha a set of shield-tanking laser angels is really using the whole thing to its full potential.
Have you considered something a little more out there, like maybe giving them bonuses that make you want to tinker tank them and rock some badass local reps? That would be really interesting and fit with the flavor of their lore.
Just a thought.
I want more excuses to fly boats with spikes on them.
LOl? They are now the most powerful of all races direct combat wise.
THe AB bonus already helps your cap, sicne you are not goign to use a MWD anymore.
It is a ship way harder to damage than the angel or serpentis one. It jsut do not have the ooomph the other 2 on the " I cought you... start your prayers" department. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1310
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:02:00 -
[699] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:When can we see the cruisers and battleships?
We probably is testign waters with the frigates before jumping into full flak territory.
Peopel are way moreprotective of their vindicators and machariels than of their frigates :P "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Awakened.
1392
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:03:00 -
[700] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: As it stands, at 10% per level, it is one of the strongest bonuses in the game and in the right situation it can feel downright broken. For now, I intend to leave it at full strength. While it is very powerful, I believe it delivers on the excitement and special feel that pirate factions ought to provide.
I am very glad you feel like this. Having ships in the game that make you say "I should stay away from that ship because it can do X to my ship" makes the game more interesting.
The other changes seem okay. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Phantasm turns out. +1 |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2809
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:06:00 -
[701] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:When can we see the cruisers and battleships? We probably is testign waters with the frigates before jumping into full flak territory. Peopel are way moreprotective of their vindicators and machariels than of their frigates :P
Yeah that will be a fun thread. When (we all know that it's not "if") the Machariel gets nerfed, the Incursion guys' hair is going to catch fire.
Right now I'm just happy they didn't touch my Daredevil too badly. I love that freaking thing, it's a pwnmobile against larger ships. I am still excited for the Cruor, though. Having a frigate that isn't the freaking Hyena with a web range bonus is going to be awesome. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
56
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:10:00 -
[702] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Worm:
I enjoy the new bonuses drone direction, but I'm afraid of what the Gila will look like based on that.
No matter what bandwidth you give the Gila I'll fill it full of Warrior 2's and a few drone nav computers and have 300% bonused, very fast Warrior 2's murdering frigates.
Current game mechanics with bandwidth won't let you expand out this design to the Gila or Rattlesnake without creating a balance issue at those levels.
I'm pretty sure the listed Worm bonus was to light drones only - which if carried over to the Gila, would be for medium drones only - so a flight of 5 lights would be equivalent to 5 lights - the 300% would not apply to the warriors... |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1310
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:13:00 -
[703] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:I think these changes look good. My only reservation is the afterburner theme for Sansha ships. In my experience, nobody uses afterburners outside of PvE.
Then your experience in pvp is very bad. No offense intended, but outside of the realm of bubbles AB are used A LOT in pvp. In fact we usually shun on anyone in our fleets using MWD except on hacs. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1488
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:14:00 -
[704] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.
That would mean Intaki Syndicate or Mordu's Legion
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1310
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:15:00 -
[705] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:When can we see the cruisers and battleships? We probably is testign waters with the frigates before jumping into full flak territory. Peopel are way moreprotective of their vindicators and machariels than of their frigates :P Yeah that will be a fun thread. When (we all know that it's not "if") the Machariel gets nerfed, the Incursion guys' hair is going to catch fire. Right now I'm just happy they didn't touch my Daredevil too badly. I love that freaking thing, it's a pwnmobile against larger ships. I am still excited for the Cruor, though. Having a frigate that isn't the freaking Hyena with a web range bonus is going to be awesome.
Funny I don't like is much. The cruor is too slow. It will web the other ship. Get in the enemy web range .. be webbed.. and never be able to reach the 7km range to use its neuts :/
It needs (as a ship that has HALF minmatar blood) to be at least as fast as the sansha ship (base speed wise) that is made from the 2 slowest races. Otherwise this ship is LESS useful than now on an unique role, and just become hyena version b1. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
SubStandard Rin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:26:00 -
[706] - Quote
My thought on why the Gurista ships was "bad" before.
Guristas: basicly here we got split dammage types.... Missiles & Drones this is the key issue why they aren't use more in pvp. splitting dammage lowers the dps and makes them alot harder to fit good for pvp.
Your first iteration : you still got split dammage but a twist that "might" work on the Worm but i think your going to end up poorly with the bigger ships. Gurista ships needs a better solution IMHO and please raise the dronebay to 30 atleast so you can get 3 wings of drones in a dedicated drone boat. Still i don't like the new idea.
and the Blood problem is the neuting/Nos on smaller ships a neuting friggate have low efficency on a cruiser while a cruiser with Neuts can clean a friggate clean of cap very fast. thus Nos is good on frigs as it keeps you alive longer now this is not a bad thing just pointing it out. The issue is low range of neuts, slow ships (armor tanked),
Blood should get a bonus to Neut/Vamp range as a role bonus additionaly instead of the "band aid" of old way of neuting. .... This would push blood to be able to neut kite an opponent compared to today where you hope you land on 0 and start neuting and get him neuted before he get out of range. .....Range on neuts make it more interesting in my opion.. kiting option... can engage kiters to try and catch them etc.
|
Dysgenesis
Dhoomcats
16
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:26:00 -
[707] - Quote
I do like the attempt to introduce or preserve the unique feel of the pirate ships through their bonuses. I do like the nos change for bloods and the afterburner change for sansha. I am delighted in the recognition of the importance of the serpentis web bonus.
The gurista drone change whilst interesting has some serious ramifications for the Gila and rattlesnake if it remains in its current form for those ships.
Does the bonus only apply for specific sizes of drones, if so will the rattlesnake get a large and sentry bonus? There will be a resultant significant nerf to the Gila and rattlesnake in the use of smaller drones. Especially if the Gila only has 20 bandwith.
Personally I would like to see them able to launch more than 5 drones but keeping bandwidths similar to now (so 10 warriors / valkyries or 5 sentries from a rattlesnake) but I suppose that would make the servers cry (or maybe it wouldn't as no-one would use them for sentry fleets over a domi).
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Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
72
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:31:00 -
[708] - Quote
Worm:
I'm gonna start with that ship, since it both has most interesting changes and was in the greatest need of a buff. First, I think that 300% drone bonus will be OP (for a frigate), since it gives you 8 effective light drones, while any other subcapital drone boat doesn't give you more than 7.5 (and you also have spare drones which makes trying to kill your drones a pointless task for most people who will fight you). There is a reason why other drone-focused frigates like Ishkur or Astero don't have a drone damage bonus, it's called balance. What I would do is give it 50 m^3 drone bay (effectively putting the old bonus from Gallente Frigate skill into the ship's hull) and keep the old drone bandwidth, while replacing the Gallente frigate bonus with 20% bonus to drone hitpoints per level. Old special ability was also rather questionable and I would put a 25% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Launcher rate of fire in its place.
Succubus:
Afterburner bonus is nice, good to see CCP still coming with new bonuses instead of predictably recycling old ones (Vagabond and Deimos, I'm looking at you). However it's still gonna be outruned by anything with a mwd, so a scram-fitted brawler will be the most common use, I guess.
Crour
Changes look good, nothing else to comment. On a somewhat related note, Bhaalgorn might deserve an unique model, like other two Blood ships.
Daredevil
Unless you're gonna make a blaster kiter (lol wtf), falloff bonus will be pretty much useless. I would go with 5% damage bonus while reducing special ability bonus to 150%, leaving you with 6.25 effective turrets with Gallente Frigate V. It also deserves a small drone bay.
Dramiel
No significant changes. Drone bay on this ship never made much sense though. |
Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
56
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:31:00 -
[709] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never. That would mean Intaki Syndicate or Mordu's Legion
Which unfortunately aren't very 'piratey' - merc/privateer is more accurate... As much as I'd love to have mordu's based ships (especially since I'm already WAY LP'd up in mordu), they certainly don't make sense as a pirate faction. Yes, they need their own faction design, but at the same time, they are so small-scale (a single station?) that it's hard to envision them designing their own ships. Some great modu's faction mods though would be awesome.
I really think this needs a whole new faction to come in the game.. shake things up in npc-null a bit. Lets see what happens when a pirate faction comes in and starts to take over a current npc factions home. What if a pirate faction sprang forth from teh drone regions (nestled conveniently between caldari and minmatar space). Would explain their 'late' entrance to the world. The problem is that they couldn't rightly take over space in kalevala or other near-empire drone space, as that's all player-sov - but they could take a few systems from thukker's rather large expanse. |
ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation Fatal Ascension
697
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:34:00 -
[710] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey guys,
We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.
Thank you for your cooperation citizens.
Ok let me see what i can do....
*cough*
OH MY GOD what do you think your doing? do you even lift?
THE CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
how many backwards contradictions do you need??
A bonus to web range, on a hull thats restricted to a 6km Nos range (T2)? Small lasers will even have trouble tracking at those ranges unless your moving at a crawl. And we all know a slow frigate is a dead frigate.
Umm...
You also missed a full stop... i wont tell you where
Nulla Curas |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1310
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:36:00 -
[711] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Worm:
I'm gonna start with that ship, since it both has most interesting changes and was in the greatest need of a buff. First, I think that 300% drone bonus will be OP (for a frigate), since it gives you 8 effective light drones, while any other subcapital drone boat doesn't give you more than 7.5 (and you also have spare drones which makes trying to kill your drones a pointless task for most people who will fight you). There is a reason why other drone-focused frigates like Ishkur or Astero don't have a drone damage bonus, it's called balance. What I would do is give it 50 m^3 drone bay (effectively putting the old bonus from Gallente Frigate skill into the ship's hull) and keep the old drone bandwidth, while replacing the Gallente frigate bonus with 20% bonus to drone hitpoints per level. Old special ability was also rather questionable and I would put a 25% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Launcher rate of fire in its place.
Succubus:
Afterburner bonus is nice, good to see CCP still coming with new bonuses instead of predictably recycling old ones (Vagabond and Deimos, I'm looking at you). However it's still gonna be outruned by anything with a mwd, so a scram-fitted brawler will be the most common use, I guess.
Crour
Changes look good, nothing else to comment. On a somewhat related note, Bhaalgorn might deserve an unique model, like other two Blood ships.
Daredevil
Unless you're gonna make a blaster kiter (lol wtf), falloff bonus will be pretty much useless. I would go with 5% damage bonus while reducing special ability bonus to 150%, leaving you with 6.25 effective turrets with Gallente Frigate V. It also deserves a small drone bay.
Dramiel
No significant changes. Drone bay on this ship never made much sense though.
Angels are as gallente as the Serpentis. In fact.. lorewise the serpentis ships fighting force are angel .. .they are very very connected pirate factions.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1310
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:39:00 -
[712] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:PinkKnife wrote:JEFFRAIDER wrote:The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP. This is why I like the idea of the bonus to Neut drones. It removes the aspect of neut range and allows you to kite out to your hearts content. With 28km web range cold, you can already kite to your heart's content. The bonus to neuting power allows you to cap out a blaster frig pretty much instantly.
No you CANNOT kite. You can do NOthing at 28 km with it. You need to get clsoer. WHen you get closer , BEFORE you get into your Nos and weaposn range you get into enemy web range. THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything.
The cruor becomes just a funny looking hyena. a WASTE. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1310
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:46:00 -
[713] - Quote
Well the team has changed :P And back then a lot of other ships were weaker as well. Nowadays I woudl LOVE if the AF lsot the MWD bonus and got a 10% bonus to AB. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
TAckermassacker
New Republic The Initiative.
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:52:00 -
[714] - Quote
Angel Cartel is in my oppinion the main looser of the warp speed changes, and the long time until it lands and the low chance to escape of a Machariel is the reason why the price is falling.
I would suggest a 25-50% Role Bonus to warp speed for all Angel ships.
- would fit to the Story
- would serve a niche for hit and run ships
- would make a dram compareable to ceptors again
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Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:56:00 -
[715] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Riot Girl wrote:PinkKnife wrote:JEFFRAIDER wrote:The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP. This is why I like the idea of the bonus to Neut drones. It removes the aspect of neut range and allows you to kite out to your hearts content. With 28km web range cold, you can already kite to your heart's content. The bonus to neuting power allows you to cap out a blaster frig pretty much instantly. No you CANNOT kite. You can do NOthing at 28 km with it. You need to get clsoer. WHen you get closer , BEFORE you get into your Nos and weaposn range you get into enemy web range. THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything. The cruor becomes just a funny looking hyena. a WASTE.
Not to mention he still needs a slot either in mids or low. He cant have a decent tank, cant have decent dps, not to mention a good balance between them. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2812
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 10:57:00 -
[716] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:No you CANNOT kite. You can do NOthing at 28 km with it. You need to get clsoer. WHen you get closer , BEFORE you get into your Nos and weaposn range you get into enemy web range. THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything.
The cruor becomes just a funny looking hyena. a WASTE. Because beams don't exist. Actually, both the Sansha and Blood Raider frigs are looking like they are designed to promote more small beam use to me.
Oh god. |
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
154
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:02:00 -
[717] - Quote
Frigate combat is about speed speed more speed and after that yet more speed.
Or maybe that would be better expressed as mobility.
The dram of course has great mobility. The dare has great control of mobility of its enemy and is reasonable quick itself.
The Suckubus may stop sucking with its great mobility bonus The Cruor has a nice mobility control bonus now 2.
Thats 4 of the 5 sorted.
The worm is aptly named as about the only thing it is good for atm is bait.
Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.
How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler. 5 drones is also more fun than 2.
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to warp disrupter and warp scrambler range per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints and navigation
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 380(+93) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
|
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
106
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:04:00 -
[718] - Quote
The worm drone bonus change is a bit... random. Setting aside how you would continue this flavour to the Gila and Rattlesnake, what (if any) is the tactical point of packaging the damage and HP of 5 drones into 2? Wouldn't it just mean I lose more DPS pulling one back into the bay if people decide to shoot my drones first?
I think a drone speed bonus would be more useful.
Also I hope you don't think that just because the Nightmare sees a decent amount of use in PvE that nothing should be done to make it more viable for PvP. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:04:00 -
[719] - Quote
I just read the first three pages so far, and I am impressed with most of the ships.
Although I don't like the Blood web range bonus. Apart from the fact that this is a Minmatar ship bonus already, it doesn't synergise well with the nuet bonus. Now the old bonus was great and I don't see why it needs to be removed. The old bonus allowed you to completely lock down an enemy ship with boosted nuets and webs effectively rendering the ship useless, this new version means you are relying completely on the nuets which may take some time to have their intended effect.
So in summary, bring back the old web bonus for Blood Raider's in my opinion. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:09:00 -
[720] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything. This is an important point, not just with the Cruor but also when you get onto the Ashimmu, blood raider ships are very slow, and with heavy armour plates making them even more sluggish, they need the web effectiveness bonus as it is too easy to escape from them otherwise. |
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Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
90
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:25:00 -
[721] - Quote
REALLY COOL IDEA ALERT
So one idea to keep sort of an electronic warfare theme for Guristas, since the Worm description says it has "electronic warfare capabilities" (and we seem to be avoiding ECM), would be to have the two drones that it deploys have altered electronic signatures. These drones would show up as identical copies of the pilot in space, and on the overview. If a pilot warps in on a Worm with the drones already deployed, they wouldn't be able to tell which was the actual pilot, and since they are fairly tanky, it could mean an inexperienced pilot would use some of their time and DPS trying to lock up and take out the wrong ship.
Now this wouldn't be that overpowered since the drone would still act differently than the pilot when engaging, and would be firing projectile beams (or whichever racial weapon the drone uses). It also means if a logistics pilot tries to repair you by targeting from the overview, they might get the drone instead. I think the idea of playing the "shell game" with your ship in space, might buy you a few seconds of confusion, and I think that would be worth it. |
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:26:00 -
[722] - Quote
I'd like to add my voice to the 'Please give blood raiders some more speed' crowd.
I fly an ashimmu quite often and whilst I like the ship, it's really difficult to actually catch something unless you land on top of it. Whilst a web range bonus will help, the loss of the web strength will undo a lot of the benefit you gain. Tapping into that minmatar racial association and giving it some ability to move when needed will make a world of difference to this line of ships. |
Azurun Li
Number One Lucky Golden Dragon Buffet
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:31:00 -
[723] - Quote
I would like to see a drone speed bonus on the Guristas hulls. I believe this would benefit both PvE and PvP equally. |
Xayo 204
I don't pay tax to NPC
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:31:00 -
[724] - Quote
I am a bit sad about the sansha changes. Afterburner speed is great and unique and all, but I don't want to loose 10% dps on my Incursion Nightmare for a bonus I will never use. Right now sansha ships get a 100% damage role bonus and a 25% damage bonus from caldari shipskills. This two boni stack, resulting in a 150% damage bonus. I don't think a 10% dps nerf is necessary for a line of ships that uses a whopping 80% of their base cap peak recharge just to keep their guns cycling and doesn't have access to high-damage weapons like Blasters. |
Delicious Charen-Teng
Do Not Ride The Bomb
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:36:00 -
[725] - Quote
My main points have been raised before on this thread but will post them here anyway to show more people feel the same way.
- Cruor web range bonus sucks. It needs, both in terms of fitting and style, a strength bonused web. Either have 2 range bonuses for its flava, or two strength bonuses. Mixing them up fails for me.
- New Worm flavour works mechanically and the numbers stack up, but the types of weapons you are giving it make it ideal for kiting and drone rush ideas. Let it do that well, give it better agility and speed, and drop its tank to compensate.
- Succubus needs some sort of lazor range bonus. This would probably be significantly more influential than the increase to damage. It wants so badly to kite, but will continue to have to brawl.
Lastly, it feels as though the flavour of Pirate Frigates being 1/2 way between Assault Ships and Inties dies with this pass, as 3 (arguably 4) of the 5 have no real hope of kiting and playing a long point meta. They simply must brawl, and therefore most AF's will outperform for price these ships. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:39:00 -
[726] - Quote
Elise Randolph wrote:Seems neat.
First impression is that the Succubus is going to fly like a shield Crusader - kinda neat to think about.
I worry that bonuses don't scale very well, though, and the Phantasm seems to get a bit shafted. Promotes a sig tank, but also an active shield tank at the same time with a pretty large base sig for a cruiser. Sigtanking + shield tanking /usually/ don't go hand in hand.
Exactly, this was my concern upon reading about the new direction for Sansha, ships renowned for having a behemoth of a shield tank, and a respectively large signature radius, which doesn't go hand in hand with afterburner use.
On the Nightmare the AB bonus is going to be pretty useless, although that doesn't matter so much as it is already good enough without it. But on the Phantasm, it is going to need a major reduction in it's signature to make this work, seeing as it's signature will bloom with all the shield tank mods it needs fitted to be effective. It could work though, will be interesting to see the draft.
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:47:00 -
[727] - Quote
Xayo 204 wrote:I am a bit sad about the sansha changes. Afterburner speed is great and unique and all, but I don't want to loose 10% dps on my Incursion Nightmare for a bonus I will never use. Right now sansha ships get a 100% damage role bonus and a 25% damage bonus from caldari shipskills. This two boni stack, resulting in a 150% damage bonus. I don't think a 10% dps nerf is necessary for a line of ships that uses a whopping 80% of their base cap peak recharge just to keep their guns cycling and doesn't have access to high-damage weapons like Blasters. Very true, that needs changing then surely. There is no reason why Sansha needs a damage nerf. Probably a typo from CCP Rise. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1133
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 11:52:00 -
[728] - Quote
A drone speed bonus really isn't that useful for the Worm. Yes, it lets your drones get to the target a bit quicker, but that's not really anything to write home about.
The other case is that it would let your drones chase down very fast ships - but they still wouldn't apply meaningful DPS to it, because of the tracking and pulsing-MWD problems. Try fitting a few DNCs and sending Warriors off after a linked frigate - they're fast enough to catch it, but too fast enough to maintain a stable range and hence apply their DPS.
Drone speed would be a pretty shoddy bonus. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 12:10:00 -
[729] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
The Sansha bonus should actually be 150% role bonus to maintain it at the current level of dps, not 125%. Otherwise that is a horrible nerf, particularly for the Phantasm and even more so on the Nightmare. |
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
155
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 12:21:00 -
[730] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:A drone speed bonus really isn't that useful for the Worm. Yes, it lets your drones get to the target a bit quicker, but that's not really anything to write home about.
The other case is that it would let your drones chase down very fast ships - but they still wouldn't apply meaningful DPS to it, because of the tracking and pulsing-MWD problems. Try fitting a few DNCs and sending Warriors off after a linked frigate - they're fast enough to catch it, but too fast enough to maintain a stable range and hence apply their DPS.
Drone speed would be a pretty shoddy bonus.
The usefulness of the nav bonus to drones it to make it faster to recall/redeploy drones that are being shot at, not neccessariliy to make the worm uber versus speed tanked frigs.
On its own pretty scrub, but if its part of a compound hp/dps/nav bonus its fine.
So nav bonus will be great for all pve as well as pvp against brawler frigs , all cruisers and up. |
|
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 12:21:00 -
[731] - Quote
Xayo 204 wrote:I am a bit sad about the sansha changes. Afterburner speed is great and unique and all, but I don't want to loose 10% dps on my Incursion Nightmare for a bonus I will never use. Right now sansha ships get a 100% damage role bonus and a 25% damage bonus from caldari shipskills. This two boni stack, resulting in a 150% damage bonus. I don't think a 10% dps nerf is necessary for a line of ships that uses a whopping 80% of their base cap peak recharge just to keep their guns cycling and doesn't have access to high-damage weapons like Blasters.
I'm amazed at how you can tell you will lose 10% damage on your Nightmare by taking one look at the first iteration of the frigate changes. Please tell me how you deduced this. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2027
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 12:22:00 -
[732] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Can we talk about the Cruor still being garbage?
Or the Succubus having a ****** tracking bonus that is no way as useful as any other bonus you could give it? The Cruor can now web out to Scorch range. If you consider that to be "garbage", then I can't help you. The only other frigate that can do this is the... chuckle... Hyena. Which may as well not exist in comparison.
Congratulations, you have a ****** sentinel.
Also it doesn't have a range bonus so you could kinda already we up to its scorch range. Only difference now is that this ship is way too ******* slow to keep anyone at that range, then it dies. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
37
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:17:00 -
[733] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Can we talk about the Cruor still being garbage?
Or the Succubus having a ****** tracking bonus that is no way as useful as any other bonus you could give it? The Cruor can now web out to Scorch range. If you consider that to be "garbage", then I can't help you. The only other frigate that can do this is the... chuckle... Hyena. Which may as well not exist in comparison.
The Hyena ... 2nd market crash imminent.
People who think that those closing under mwd will instawin will get the nasty surprise of their cap disappearing rapidly, tackle turned off and still those scorch will hit home. I like it. |
Yolo
Yolo Corp xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
141
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:23:00 -
[734] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress) Energy Vampires always operates at maximum efficiency. - since 2003, bitches |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:45:00 -
[735] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:No you CANNOT kite. You can do NOthing at 28 km with it. You need to get clsoer. WHen you get closer , BEFORE you get into your Nos and weaposn range you get into enemy web range. THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything.
The cruor becomes just a funny looking hyena. a WASTE. Because beams don't exist. Actually, both the Sansha and Blood Raider frigs are looking like they are designed to promote more small beam use to me.
aa yeah really so you just agree that the ship shoudl be pingeonholed at the USELES and IDIOTIC idea role? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:46:00 -
[736] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything. This is an important point, not just with the Cruor but also when you get onto the Ashimmu, blood raider ships are very slow, and with heavy armour plates making them even more sluggish, they need the web effectiveness bonus as it is too easy to escape from them otherwise.
Or just pump up their minamtar blood and increase their base speed. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
232
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:55:00 -
[737] - Quote
Some points about the Cruor.
1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.
2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.
3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch.
Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
526
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:00:00 -
[738] - Quote
implying it's ever possible to fit beams |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:07:00 -
[739] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Some points about the Cruor.
1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.
2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.
3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch in the OH range.
Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite.
First of all, thank you for your amusing post. At the same time as telling us all to learn to read, you display that you also do not understand how to read yourself, (I think you mean Succubus no Cruor), and also in the same post you display you cannot complete basic mathematic sums as you incorrectly calculated the new damage bonus by simply adding the two existing bonuses together, (it doesn't work like that). Thank you again for your amusing post.
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:18:00 -
[740] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything. This is an important point, not just with the Cruor but also when you get onto the Ashimmu, blood raider ships are very slow, and with heavy armour plates making them even more sluggish, they need the web effectiveness bonus as it is too easy to escape from them otherwise. Or just pump up their minamtar blood and increase their base speed. The web effectiveness bonus is an incredibly useful trait which synergises well with the nos/neut. I would prefer to keep that bonus, as it effectively allows you to cripple one, (or even two targets with the Ashimmu), by webbing them so they cannot even move. They can still obviously shoot and kill you, although your neuts and heavy armour can counter this.
I don't mind having a higher speed instead of that as it would go some way to solving the problem, although to me a far easier solution Is to simply keep the 90% webs. |
|
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
232
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:19:00 -
[741] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:
First of all, thank you for your amusing post. At the same time as telling us all to learn to read, you display that you also do not understand how to read yourself, (I think you mean Succubus not Cruor), and also in the same post you display you cannot complete basic mathematic sums as you incorrectly calculated the new damage bonus by simply adding the two existing bonuses together, (it doesn't work like that). Thank you again for your amusing post.
Ok, let me show you the power of 2nd grade primary school math.
1. Starting damage 100% + 5% damage bonus per level at lvlV gives a 25% damage bonus 100+25=125% damage + 100% damage bonus 125+100=225% damage
2. Starting damage 100% + 125% damage bonus 100+125=225% damage
Go back to school. now. Damage bonuses are both applied ON THE BASE DAMAGE, you don't up the damage via the first bonus and THEN apply the second one. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:20:00 -
[742] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50.
Please increase to 400 for all faction ships.
http://eveion.blogspot.com/ |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:20:00 -
[743] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote: Ok, let me show you the power of 2nd grade primary school math.
1. Starting damage 100% + 5% damage bonus per level at lvlV gives a 25% damage bonus 100+25=125% damage + 100% damage bonus 125+100=225% damage
2. Starting damage 100% + 125% damage bonus 100+125=225% damage
Go back to school. now.
You just made yourself look even more silly. I think you should stay out of this balance discussion. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
527
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:22:00 -
[744] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:
First of all, thank you for your amusing post. At the same time as telling us all to learn to read, you display that you also do not understand how to read yourself, (I think you mean Succubus not Cruor), and also in the same post you display you cannot complete basic mathematic sums as you incorrectly calculated the new damage bonus by simply adding the two existing bonuses together, (it doesn't work like that). Thank you again for your amusing post.
Ok, let me show you the power of 2nd grade primary school math. 1. Starting damage 100% + 5% damage bonus per level at lvlV gives a 25% damage bonus 100+25=125% damage + 100% damage bonus 125+100= 225% damage2. Starting damage 100% + 125% damage bonus 100+125= 225% damageGo back to school. now. Damage bonuses are both applied ON THE BASE DAMAGE, you don't up the damage via the first bonus and THEN apply the second one.
lol |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
232
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:27:00 -
[745] - Quote
But...but making an ass out of yourself shows spirit..right?...right?..XD
I'm wrong, it loses half an effective turret. I think the other points stand though. |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
919
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:28:00 -
[746] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
336
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:39:00 -
[747] - Quote
Although I like most of the changes.
Couldn't we use the reballance to give the Shansa line somthing Caldari?
at the moment it's one of the least recognisable lines in Pirates ships.
a passive shield bonus or a EMC bonus would actualy turn it in a Anmar/Caldari ship, the only link it has now is the lore.
|
Gustav Mannfred
the bring back canflipping corp
91
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:53:00 -
[748] - Quote
Why is the Worm only getting a missile damage bonus for thermal and kinetic missiles? and nor for em and explosive damage?
I would also suggest to increase warp speed of the pirate ships by 20% so frigs will then have 6au/s crusers 3.6au/s and battleships 2.4au/s (nestor 3au/s, as it has 2.5au/s right now)
i'm REALY miss the old stuff.-á
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183 |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:54:00 -
[749] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:To these people complaining about the Worm with only two drones. You guys aren't getting it. It's not a "gimmick". It's actually a very interesting concept.
The new Worm is essentially 3 ships. You have your main ship (the hull) and your two buddies (the drones) who are essentially attack frigates without EWAR.
This means it feels like you're in a small gang when flying solo in a Worm.
This concept being applied to the Gila and the Rattlesnake is extremely interesting. What are you on? O.o Those light drones with 300% HP bonus are gonna be as tough as attack frigates. Add a drone durability rig and they will be almost impossible to kill.... they will also be hitting very hard. It will be like having an extra 2 ships with you
and that's the main problem, that they are practically impossible to kill, and in that case you cannot counter the worm....now imagine a fleet of them...... |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:00:00 -
[750] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:Gypsio III wrote:A drone speed bonus really isn't that useful for the Worm. Yes, it lets your drones get to the target a bit quicker, but that's not really anything to write home about.
The other case is that it would let your drones chase down very fast ships - but they still wouldn't apply meaningful DPS to it, because of the tracking and pulsing-MWD problems. Try fitting a few DNCs and sending Warriors off after a linked frigate - they're fast enough to catch it, but too fast enough to maintain a stable range and hence apply their DPS.
Drone speed would be a pretty shoddy bonus. The usefulness of the nav bonus to drones it to make it faster to recall/redeploy drones that are being shot at, not neccessariliy to make the worm uber versus speed tanked frigs. On its own pretty scrub, but if its part of a compound hp/dps/nav bonus its fine. So nav bonus will be great for all pve as well as pvp against brawler frigs , all cruisers and up.
this, add a tracking, optimal and falloff bonus and apply it to the larger hulls, and the Gila and Rattlesnake would get more interesting to fly.... |
|
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
109
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:11:00 -
[751] - Quote
TAckermassacker wrote:Angel Cartel is in my oppinion the main looser of the warp speed changes, and the long time until it lands and the low chance to escape of a Machariel is the reason why the price is falling. I would suggest a 25-50% Role Bonus to warp speed for all Angel ships.
- would fit to the Story
- would serve a niche for hit and run ships
- would make a dram compareable to ceptors again
no, get out, angels don't need a boost. if anything agility needs to be nerf'd into the ground (slightly better than a typhoon). |
Crysantos Callahan
Control-Space DARKNESS.
18
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:11:00 -
[752] - Quote
I think the changes will help the "less loved" pirate issues to be a bit more popular.
But something I don't get - why racial damage boni on the worm for missiles. Either give it a general damage boni, rof, whatever - or make it a real drone platform and add some dps/speed/tracking to the light drones. The split weapons on a frig just won't make it any more popular than it is right now.
Not sure if the introduction of the old nos is a good idea, tho. |
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
108
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:20:00 -
[753] - Quote
Going to have to chime in on the Blood speed issue: if long range webs are staying, then they simply need more speed (especially the Cruor/Ashimmu). It makes sense for Blood ships to be more agile and faster anyway, they're half Minmatar tech. They get lasers and neuts/nos from Amarr and they should get speed/agility and web bonuses from Minmatar. Otherwise, these long range webs, be they for kiting or catching targets out of scram range, aren't gong to do much good because most things are still going to be faster. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:28:00 -
[754] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 12% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per lvl
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 90% to drone microwarpdrive speed, tracking, falloff range and optimal range
drone bandwidth/drone bay: 25/50
12% drone damage and hitpoints equals to 3 aditional drones at lvl V skills, thus giving 8 effective drones, the 90% bonus makes unnecesary to use other drone mods apart of the damage ones, so the ship can focus in tank or other uses for its midslots
90% == 3 DNAs II/Omnis II without stacking penalty (totals to 90% speed, 90% optimal and falloff and 45% tracking)
with those statistics:
5 hobs II == 264 DPS (using 3 DDAs II)
now add T2 LMLs with Fury == 264+39 == 303 DPS that without adding implants and links and aditional rigs (guess people will shove drone durability enhancers instead of any missile stuff)
for the worm it must not sound too much, but imagine what it would do for the Gila and the Rattlesnake
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:34:00 -
[755] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Although I like most of the changes.
Couldn't we use the reballance to give the Shansa line somthing Caldari?
at the moment it's one of the least recognisable lines in Pirates ships.
a passive shield bonus or a EMC bonus would actualy turn it in a Anmar/Caldari ship, the only link it has now is the lore.
The Sansha ships take their heavy shield from the Caldari line, so a ship bonus giving it perhaps a signature reduction, or improvement in shield resistance would make some sense. I agree though, the AB is more minmatar, and is probably better suited to the Blood Raider ships.
I'd much prefer Sansha to stick to their fundamental aspects which are having a heavy shield and delivering heavy damage. An afterburner really makes little sense. If you really want to give it something stand out then take the ECM aspect from caldari ships and perhaps give a bonus to ECM drones. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:37:00 -
[756] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:Although I like most of the changes.
Couldn't we use the reballance to give the Shansa line somthing Caldari?
at the moment it's one of the least recognisable lines in Pirates ships.
a passive shield bonus or a EMC bonus would actualy turn it in a Anmar/Caldari ship, the only link it has now is the lore.
The Sansha ships take their heavy shield from the Caldari line, so a ship bonus giving it perhaps a signature reduction, or improvement in shield resistance would make some sense. I agree though, the AB is more minmatar, and is probably better suited to the Blood Raider ships. I'd much prefer Sansha to stick to their fundamental aspects which are having a heavy shield and delivering heavy damage. An afterburner really makes little sense. If you really want to give it something stand out then take the ECM aspect from caldari ships and perhaps give a bonus to ECM drones.
tieing it to the worm proposal above:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and optimal range
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances per lvl
Role Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1861
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:40:00 -
[757] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50. this is a silly argument. with this reasoning you could argue that warcraft 2 had better balance than warcraft 3 because both factions had the exact same units.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:42:00 -
[758] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:The Sansha ships take their heavy shield from the Caldari line, so a ship bonus giving it perhaps a signature reduction, or improvement in shield resistance would make some sense. I agree though, the AB is more minmatar, and is probably better suited to the Blood Raider ships.
I'd much prefer Sansha to stick to their fundamental aspects which are having a heavy shield and delivering heavy damage. An afterburner really makes little sense. If you really want to give it something stand out then take the ECM aspect from caldari ships and perhaps give a bonus to ECM drones. tieing it to the worm proposal above: SUCCUBUS Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and optimal rangeCaldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances per lvlRole Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage) basically the Succubus gets an aditional range bonus, while getting more resistances, as the guristas get a bonus to compensate this loss, the Sanshas get more bulk on their shields
Yes this makes a lot of sense, I would rather go with the shield resistances than an afterburner bonus, and then Amarr delivers all the energy weapon bonuses which makes a lot more sense.
I still think it would be quite cool, and also quite 'sansha' for them to have bonused ecm drones though. But giving shield resistances is a good and safe option. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:47:00 -
[759] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:The Sansha ships take their heavy shield from the Caldari line, so a ship bonus giving it perhaps a signature reduction, or improvement in shield resistance would make some sense. I agree though, the AB is more minmatar, and is probably better suited to the Blood Raider ships.
I'd much prefer Sansha to stick to their fundamental aspects which are having a heavy shield and delivering heavy damage. An afterburner really makes little sense. If you really want to give it something stand out then take the ECM aspect from caldari ships and perhaps give a bonus to ECM drones. tieing it to the worm proposal above: SUCCUBUS Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and optimal rangeCaldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances per lvlRole Bonus: 125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage) basically the Succubus gets an aditional range bonus, while getting more resistances, as the guristas get a bonus to compensate this loss, the Sanshas get more bulk on their shields Yes this makes a lot of sense, I would rather go with the shield resistances than an afterburner bonus, and then Amarr delivers all the energy weapon bonuses which makes a lot more sense. I still think it would be quite cool, and also quite 'sansha' for them to have bonused ecm drones though. But giving shield resistances is a good and safe option.
pulse nightmare with scorch, just saying :v
|
Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
215
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:57:00 -
[760] - Quote
I'm sorry to say CCP Rise, but these all seem like well thought out ideas that are good for once. I'm as shocked as you, amazing. But a till we see changes to the cruisers and battleships who really knows. I do think pirate faction frigates still won't stand up against AF like they once did, but these chances will make them better ships as a whole.
About the true missile pirate faction ship. I have talked about this before. As the SoE ships are Amarr/Gal, I'd say a Cald/Min pirate faction ship is in store, and making it into a true missile platform shouldn't be an issue. The issue is what faction would it be, and the bonuses to the ship. A whole new ship design be sweet also. |
|
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
413
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:58:00 -
[761] - Quote
Could the new worm drone setup be applied to the ishkur also? I would love to have drones that could take a hit. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:59:00 -
[762] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:I'm sorry to say CCP Rise, but these all seem like well thought out ideas that are good for once. I'm as shocked as you, amazing. But a till we see changes to the cruisers and battleships who really knows. I do think pirate faction frigates still won't stand up against AF like they once did, but these chances will make them better ships as a whole.
About the true missile pirate faction ship. I have talked about this before. As the SoE ships are Amarr/Gal, I'd say a Cald/Min pirate faction ship is in store, and making it into a true missile platform shouldn't be an issue. The issue is what faction would it be, and the bonuses to the ship. A whole new ship design be sweet also.
it would have to be a new faction cause there are not factions with that alignment for now, that or they add aditional story to either Thukkers or Ammatar...... |
Abs Sciuto
Diesel Corporation Intercom.
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:01:00 -
[763] - Quote
I think you should give some pirate frigate bonus to rof of lasers) for example: cruor: hi/med/low 3/3/4 2 turrets amarr frigate bonus 20% to amount of capacitor of nosf/neutr minmatar frigate 20% bonus to laser turrets rate of fire role bonus - old nosf, 100% to neutr/nosf range, 125% to laser turrets damage
make him a bit less weight, to make faster...
what about worm... it should be more missile)
actually, I think about some rig, with which we can change role bonus to another on ships, like worm. without it worm will be missile platform, which - drone) it will interesting.
anyway MAKE WORM/SUCCUBUS/CRUOR FASTER!!!) |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:11:00 -
[764] - Quote
something like this?
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and optimal range
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to rate of fire
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
max velocity increased from 308 to 340-350 even 360 (?)
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:15:00 -
[765] - Quote
After considering this I think the bonuses are very wrong for blood raider and sansha ships. We would regret this for years to come as likely pirate ships won't be rebalanced for a long time after this one.
So, how about simply scrap the web bonus altogether on blood raider ships, the current range bonus being proposed is neither here nor there for me as many others have mentioned. Instead give them the Sansha afterburner bonus.
A heavily armoured low sig afterburner bonused ship equipped with bonused nuet or nos makes a lot of sense.
On the other hand, a heavy shielded and giant signatured Sansha ship has no need for an afterburner bonus. Instead give the Sansha ships a shield resistance bonus from the caldari ship skill, and an optimal bonus from the amarr ship skill. |
GOTBOT
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:18:00 -
[766] - Quote
happened!
Worm desperately need drone bonuses.
And I don't care , it will be:
5 drones *50%
or
2*300%
Just do it! |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
296
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:24:00 -
[767] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:After considering this I think the bonuses are very wrong for blood raider and sansha ships. We would regret this for years to come as likely pirate ships won't be rebalanced for a long time after this one.
So, how about simply scrap the web bonus altogether on blood raider ships, the current range bonus being proposed is neither here nor there for me as many others have mentioned. Instead give them the Sansha afterburner bonus.
A heavily armoured low sig afterburner bonused ship equipped with bonused nuet or nos makes a lot of sense.
On the other hand, a heavy shielded and giant signatured Sansha ship has no need for an afterburner bonus. Instead give the Sansha ships a shield resistance bonus from the caldari ship skill, and an optimal bonus from the amarr ship skill.
I don't think you understand how speed-tanking works. Low sig is a nice bonus for speed tanking but it's not required if the speed bonus is high enough. In-fact the high-ish signature on the Sansha ships from shield tanking helps mitigate the effects of the bonus and makes it less over-powered, especially on the smaller ships.
As for tanking if you fit your ship well and take into account the increase in your own traversal the AB bonus is a more powerful tanking increase than % shield resists would be. Plus that bonus is already over-used and extremely powerful as things stand. |
Dii minores
AirGuard LowSechnaya Sholupen
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:28:00 -
[768] - Quote
new CRUOR is not worthy of existence. Stop nerf Ashimmu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:36:00 -
[769] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:After considering this I think the bonuses are very wrong for blood raider and sansha ships. We would regret this for years to come as likely pirate ships won't be rebalanced for a long time after this one.
So, how about simply scrap the web bonus altogether on blood raider ships, the current range bonus being proposed is neither here nor there for me as many others have mentioned. Instead give them the Sansha afterburner bonus.
A heavily armoured low sig afterburner bonused ship equipped with bonused nuet or nos makes a lot of sense.
On the other hand, a heavy shielded and giant signatured Sansha ship has no need for an afterburner bonus. Instead give the Sansha ships a shield resistance bonus from the caldari ship skill, and an optimal bonus from the amarr ship skill. I don't think you understand how speed-tanking works. Low sig is a nice bonus for speed tanking but it's not required if the speed bonus is high enough. In-fact the high-ish signature on the Sansha ships from shield tanking helps mitigate the effects of the bonus and makes it less over-powered, especially on the smaller ships. As for tanking if you fit your ship well and take into account the increase in your own traversal the AB bonus is a more powerful tanking increase than % shield resists would be. Plus that bonus is already over-used and extremely powerful as things stand. The fact is an afterburner bonus is out of place on a ship which is based around caldari and amarr principles. It is not that people don't understand how speed tanking works, the problem is the ship doesn't make a lot of sense. This will become even worse when we move onto the phantasm and nightmare, I am predicting the complaints will start then. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:41:00 -
[770] - Quote
Ill say it again, 90% are to strong, and 20% web range is to weak.
When comparing these, 90% web = 4-5x 60% webs. What other modules get these bonuses (even the new worm drone bonuses are not that strong)
20% web range make very little diffrence, make it 30% as recon ships get or stronger. Even at 50%/level i would likely take current web strenght if i could choose |
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:45:00 -
[771] - Quote
then i propose the following:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 4% to all armor resistances
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% to statis webifier and energy vampire effectivenes
Role Bonus: 100% to energy turret damage
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
max velocity increased from 308 to 340-350 even 360 (?)
the original blood raider doctrine was about draining and webbing the enemy while killing it with short ranged weapons, the bonuses above are based in that doctrine, 20% more resistances allows to get a bit more of tank at close range, while the 20% bonus to stasis webifier and energy vampire bonuses keep the enemy in a stop.
the drawback is that you have to get close to the enemy, in order to do so the ship gets a bit more of max velocity.... |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
109
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:49:00 -
[772] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Some points about the Succubus.
1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.
2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.
3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch in the OH range.
Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite.
1) Yes DPS is identical and also crap 2) Yes that seems to be the intended meta but with crap dps its kinda meh 3) Pulses? It will die quickly. Terrible ship to brawl with. 4) the AB bonus is intriguing but without an agility bonus alongside it...or an optimal range bonus to make it truly useful for kiting as is suggested...it will of course be lack luster.
The Succubus is still the worst of the faction frigates. Out DPS'd, out maneuvered, out-bonused (by ships witth actual combat bonuses like long webs and nos/neut efffectiveness, web effectiveness, drone dps and missile damage bonii or just plain ole better (Dramiel)).
It offers nothing in terms of small gang or fleet combat that other ships don't do more effectively. Kite? Worm/Dram even rail daredevil. Hell use a slicer cause at least it gets an optimal range bonus.
Brawl? The same. This ship is one of the most cap intensive ships with no payoff for it. Lasers **** cap into space. the cruor at least partially overcomes this with its spiffy new nos bonus. The Worm? Not cap intensive unless you try to active tank it. The Daredevil? Still the same...great defensive frigate/assault ship. The Dramiel is a great vanguard frigate/faction assault frigate.
what should sansha do? Massive concentration on laser and shield systems. The damage bonus should be twice what it is (200%) with only two turrets (2=4 instead of 2=3.5) or something. Forget sansha AB speed, give it large base shield HP and a sig reduction bonus per level like an interceptor.
Faction frigates are kind of hybrids of t2 and t1 ships. The faction bonuses are kind of like combining assault frigate and electronic attack ship bonuses in hulls that have assault frigate and interceptor hybrid properties.
Of course the fact that sansha NPC rats still armor tank doesn't help the confused nature of sansha hulls in general. Probably should have combined the laser damage bonus with tracking disruptor bonuses making it stronger in a 1v1 fight than say a sentinel would be...and be more of a dangerous opponent in a 1v1 encounter.
Oh wow 10mn version can do 5K! who gives a fark. unless it has stats proportionate to a 100mn Tengu with 400 compensation for rigs. At least then you might be able to fit some pulses and scorch and run around ninja'ing in and out of webs immune to scrams. But since it won't have the requisite 15K ehp for a frigate to do that...its useless. Not enough bulk shield...no ability to do dps. might as well fly a harpy or hawk to be honest. This offers no real advantage |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:56:00 -
[773] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:Some points about the Succubus.
1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.
2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.
3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch in the OH range.
Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite. 1) Yes DPS is identical and also crap 2) Yes that seems to be the intended meta but with crap dps its kinda meh 3) Pulses? It will die quickly. Terrible ship to brawl with. 4) the AB bonus is intriguing but without an agility bonus alongside it...or an optimal range bonus to make it truly useful for kiting as is suggested...it will of course be lack luster. The Succubus is still the worst of the faction frigates. Out DPS'd, out maneuvered, out-bonused (by ships witth actual combat bonuses like long webs and nos/neut efffectiveness, web effectiveness, drone dps and missile damage bonii or just plain ole better (Dramiel)). It offers nothing in terms of small gang or fleet combat that other ships don't do more effectively. Kite? Worm/Dram even rail daredevil. Hell use a slicer cause at least it gets an optimal range bonus. Brawl? The same. This ship is one of the most cap intensive ships with no payoff for it. Lasers **** cap into space. the cruor at least partially overcomes this with its spiffy new nos bonus. The Worm? Not cap intensive unless you try to active tank it. The Daredevil? Still the same...great defensive frigate/assault ship. The Dramiel is a great vanguard frigate/faction assault frigate. what should sansha do? Massive concentration on laser and shield systems. The damage bonus should be twice what it is (200%) with only two turrets (2=4 instead of 2=3.5) or something. Forget sansha AB speed, give it large base shield HP and a sig reduction bonus per level like an interceptor. Faction frigates are kind of hybrids of t2 and t1 ships. The faction bonuses are kind of like combining assault frigate and electronic attack ship bonuses in hulls that have assault frigate and interceptor hybrid properties. Of course the fact that sansha NPC rats still armor tank doesn't help the confused nature of sansha hulls in general. Probably should have combined the laser damage bonus with tracking disruptor bonuses making it stronger in a 1v1 fight than say a sentinel would be...and be more of a dangerous opponent in a 1v1 encounter. Oh wow 10mn version can do 5K! who gives a fark. unless it has stats proportionate to a 100mn Tengu with 400 compensation for rigs. At least then you might be able to fit some pulses and scorch and run around ninja'ing in and out of webs immune to scrams. But since it won't have the requisite 15K ehp for a frigate to do that...its useless. Not enough bulk shield...no ability to do dps. might as well fly a harpy or hawk to be honest. This offers no real advantage
what about this then:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and Optimal Range
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% to Tracking Disruptor effectivenes and Optimal Range
Role Bonus: 200% to small energy turret damage
slot layout: 3H/5M/2L one aditional med for putting the tracking disruptor, the rest of the meds are for tank/prop mods or whatever..... |
Dii minores
AirGuard LowSechnaya Sholupen
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:58:00 -
[774] - Quote
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Signature radius: 35
From the new CRUOR, with its new bonuses I start to feel sick, give him more PWG + 1 turrets + 1 H slot.
Then he will be a worthy contender DAREDEVIL!!!!!!
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:11:00 -
[775] - Quote
now that i see it:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes and optimal range
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% to stasis webifier optimal range and effectivenes
Role Bonus: 200% to small energy turret damage
slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers
basically, the ship bonuses make it have 4 effective turrets, with the power of 2 neuts/vamps and 2 webs, 4 lows allow to give it a bit more of armor, if not more firepower.... |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
247
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:17:00 -
[776] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:now that i see it:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes and optimal range
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% to stasis webifier optimal range and effectivenes
Role Bonus: 200% to small energy turret damage
slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers
basically, the ship bonuses make it have 4 effective turrets, with the power of 2 neuts/vamps and 2 webs, 4 lows allow to give it a bit more of armor, if not more firepower.... Refuse the bonus to effectiveness on the nos and no the dual range/effectiveness of the webs. The range itself is a strong trait and the effectiveness you suggested is 100% reduction in speed. Pick one or the other and if you pick web effectiveness the best you can argue is 90%. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:21:00 -
[777] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:Some points about the Succubus.
1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.
2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.
3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch in the OH range.
Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite. 1) Yes DPS is identical and also crap Actually, dps is not identical, it is lower by 10%. Bonuses are multiplied together not added.
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:23:00 -
[778] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:now that i see it:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes and optimal range
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% to stasis webifier optimal range and effectivenes
Role Bonus: 200% to small energy turret damage
slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers
basically, the ship bonuses make it have 4 effective turrets, with the power of 2 neuts/vamps and 2 webs, 4 lows allow to give it a bit more of armor, if not more firepower.... Refuse the bonus to effectiveness on the nos and no the dual range/effectiveness of the webs. The range itself is a strong trait and the effectiveness you suggested is 100% reduction in speed. Pick one or the other and if you pick web effectiveness the best you can argue is 90%.
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% to stasis webifier optimal range
Role Bonus: 200% to small energy turret damage
slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers
like this?, 100% draining power, so counts as 2 nos/neuts but no aditional range, 100% bonus to the range of webifiers but no aditional jamming power |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:25:00 -
[779] - Quote
the difference is not too much from this one and the one proposed by Rise, just 35% more draining power, more damage and more tank... |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:25:00 -
[780] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote: the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets. People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions.
A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets.
A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.
|
|
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:28:00 -
[781] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote: the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets. People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions. A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets. A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.
I agree that people need to stop with this incorrect math...
2 turrets with 200% bonus = 6 turrets not 8!
2+(2*200%) = 2+4 = 6 |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:29:00 -
[782] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote: the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets. People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions. A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets. A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together. The proposed version is doing 10% less dps than the Cruor currently available on Tranquility right now.
the DareDevil has 2 turret hardpoints too and a 200%, this means that it would have the DPS of 8 turrets? i dont think so.....in that case the DD has too much raw firepower..... |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:30:00 -
[783] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote: the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets. People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions. A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets. A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together. I agree that people need to stop with this incorrect math... 2 turrets with 200% bonus = 6 turrets not 8! 2+(2*200%) = 2+4 = 6
hmmmm in that case i need to change it back to 100%.... |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:30:00 -
[784] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote: the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets. People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions. A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets. A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together. I agree that people need to stop with this incorrect math... 2 turrets with 200% bonus = 6 turrets not 8! 2+(2*200%) = 2+4 = 6 Yes sorry, It should have been 6 turrets. That is my bad mathematics now.
Also I meant to say the Succubus is doing 10% less damage, not the Cruor. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:32:00 -
[785] - Quote
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% to stasis webifier optimal range
Role Bonus: 100% to small energy turret damage
slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers
bad applied mathematics, this should be the final proposition:
the Cruor gets a 5% increase in its power drain bonus, so at lvl V skills you get the power of 2 neuts/vamps, the ship looses a highslot, and gets an aditional lowslots, so it gets aditional armor tank.......or more firepower if you want... |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
473
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:34:00 -
[786] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote: Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.
How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler. 5 drones is also more fun than 2.
A "couple of Scrub Condors" are going to get eviscerated by these drones. The Worm has near AF levels of tank, and it's drones are going to be ridiculously powerful and survivable. Furthermore- the Worm as a shield tanking missile/drone platform, that operates distinctly at close range, fills a role that does not currently exist in the game. Two or three of these will not be easily killed if their pilots know what they're doing. Not only that, but it's velocity is increasing, it's still really light... It's not going to be nearly as bad as you think.
Also what's with all the "the fun of the worm comes from being able to launch and micromanage five drones" people? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
535
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:39:00 -
[787] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Dav Varan wrote: Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.
How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler. 5 drones is also more fun than 2.
A "couple of Scrub Condors" are going to get eviscerated by these drones. The Worm has near AF levels of tank, and it's drones are going to be ridiculously powerful and survivable. Furthermore- the Worm as a shield tanking missile/drone platform, that operates distinctly at close range, fills a role that does not currently exist in the game. Two or three of these will not be easily killed if their pilots know what they're doing. Not only that, but it's velocity is increasing, it's still really light... It's not going to be nearly as bad as you think. Also what's with all the "the fun of the worm comes from being able to launch and micromanage five drones" people?
drones cannot kill kiting ships |
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3868
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:39:00 -
[788] - Quote
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not
There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.
Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/
Thanks |
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 17:43:00 -
[789] - Quote
Any chance on getting your thoughts Rise on the contradiction between an amarr and caldari ship getting an afterburner bonus, this bonus would be more suited to the blood raider ships. Also a high signatured Sansha ship does not synergise to well with the afterburner bonus.
Just to add, the Cruor range bonus on the webs as others have also pointed out may need looking into.
Look forward to your replies anyway, and good changes so far. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
536
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:01:00 -
[790] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks
please consider dropping the web thing from the bloodraider ships, bringing them down to minimum lows, and giving them resist bonuses and more lows. they do too much atm. |
|
Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
337
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:03:00 -
[791] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks
Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus? |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1751
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:10:00 -
[792] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks
all i can say is missile bonus for gal is heresy...
if you are keen on keeping the missile bonus(something i wish was removed) then please make it the role bonus and make the drone hp/damage the skill bonus. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:18:00 -
[793] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus? A shield resistance bonus would be more apt.
Also as TrouseDeagle says, consider dropping the web bonus altogether. The current web effectiveness bonus is good, but if you really want to get rid of that then instead of a range bonus consider giving it a speed bonus, either in the form of a prop mod bonus or baseline speed. |
Anya Klibor
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
652
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:18:00 -
[794] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Dav Varan wrote: Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.
How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler. 5 drones is also more fun than 2.
A "couple of Scrub Condors" are going to get eviscerated by these drones. The Worm has near AF levels of tank, and it's drones are going to be ridiculously powerful and survivable. Furthermore- the Worm as a shield tanking missile/drone platform, that operates distinctly at close range, fills a role that does not currently exist in the game. Two or three of these will not be easily killed if their pilots know what they're doing. Not only that, but it's velocity is increasing, it's still really light... It's not going to be nearly as bad as you think. Also what's with all the "the fun of the worm comes from being able to launch and micromanage five drones" people?
I disagree.
My preferred fit involves light missiles, a long point, and a MWD. It has seven minutes of capacitor, allowing it to maintain a positive burn. On top of that, it goes about 2,800 m/s before boosts or implants. It's DPS is roughly 150.
This new Worm will have more DPS on paper, if you are using kinetic or thermal damage. I'll be honest, I think that forcing Caldari ships into kinetic damage only is among the stupidest ideas available, much as the Cerberus's "flight time" bonus is equally stupid.
Ships have an innately resilient tank to both Kinetic and Thermal damage, and more-so at the T2 level (Caldari and Gallente both have reists specific to these damage profiles; Amarr is resistant to Kinetic and Minmatar to Thermal). Byt forcing people to use these damage types, you are negating DPS, not increasing it.
All this crap about the Worm having an "AF-style tank" is wrong: you don't have the slots to make use of any type of tank. Four mid slots means you have fit to kite, meaning that your tank is range and speed, not an actual tank based on your profile. This means you're light missile fit, and this means you need a velocity bonus to your missiles.
Guess what was removed?
So, it's not a brawler: the Hookbill will do that far better with it's ability to dictate range easier plus a shield extender. It's not a kiter because it's got no range bonus to it's missiles. It's drones are absolute garbage (and yes, they're garbage: any drone miss is the equivalent of three-four drones missing at a time). It is being forced into damage profiles that people usually have a decent resistance again.
I'm getting awfully tired of half-assed decisions. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
296
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:19:00 -
[795] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:then i propose the following:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 4% to all armor resistances
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% to statis webifier and energy vampire effectivenes
Role Bonus: 100% to energy turret damage
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
max velocity increased from 308 to 340-350 even 360 (?)
the original blood raider doctrine was about draining and webbing the enemy while killing it with short ranged weapons, the bonuses above are based in that doctrine, 20% more resistances allows to get a bit more of tank at close range, while the 20% bonus to stasis webifier and energy vampire bonuses keep the enemy in a stop.
the drawback is that you have to get close to the enemy, in order to do so the ship gets a bit more of max velocity....
Oh gods no. Just for a start a 20% per level bonus to webs would be... there aren't words for how broken that would be but it basically comes down to 100% webs. No.
In-fact your version is basically just entirely too strong across the board. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
296
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:27:00 -
[796] - Quote
Anya Klibor wrote:Ships have an innately resilient tank to both Kinetic and Thermal damage, and more-so at the T2 level (Caldari and Gallente both have reists specific to these damage profiles; Amarr is resistant to Kinetic and Minmatar to Thermal). Byt forcing people to use these damage types, you are negating DPS, not increasing it.
....
So, it's not a brawler: the Hookbill will do that far better with it's ability to dictate range easier plus a shield extender. It's not a kiter because it's got no range bonus to it's missiles. It's drones are absolute garbage (and yes, they're garbage: any drone miss is the equivalent of three-four drones missing at a time). It is being forced into damage profiles that people usually have a decent resistance again.
I'm getting awfully tired of half-assed decisions.
Going by the pattern of other ships if the Worm was getting a regular missile bonus it would drop down to 25% per level, which is overall a damage nerf compared to just slinging 50% bonused Kin or Therm. Plus if you're talking about enemies with an actually fitted out tank then Kin/Therm tend to be on the lower end of things because of plugging EM/Explosive holes.
I don't know if you've actually done the tracking math on Light Drones but in order for one to reliably miss a frigate sized target, like flat out miss, requires the frigate to be going so fast that the drones are just out-ranged and means that any other weapon is probably missing as well.
Plus the Worm actually has two more bonused weapons than any of the other frigates which both have only two turrets and no one's complaining about *those* sucking because of the potential for one to flat miss. |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
656
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:36:00 -
[797] - Quote
I really do like these changes. I would rather see a 4% armor resist bonus appear on BR ships. Web range bonuses are cool and all, but we have other ships that have great web range. BR ships really shine at getting great neuts on target. They are frequently primaried because of it. More tank goes a long way when you are the logical primary because you are neuting out the enemy logi or other key ships. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
Ruaro
Space monitoring
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:49:00 -
[798] - Quote
I'm a bit conservative on role bonus instead of /per level bonus. Lets say in case of Worm a 1-2 days char (or alt with drone assist) will have (add) like 200ish pretty much unkillable drone dps.
And I have not too much familiar with drone assist - may it be delivered from safety of cloak or what mechanics if assisted drones are used in gank (some scenarios popped in my mind)? |
Lycaon Arktos
Preon Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:53:00 -
[799] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.
I would think Mordu's Legion would be a very good fit for introducing a new line of missile based pirate ships with a Caldari flavor, no? Always thought it would be cool to have a reason to go mission for a merc corp as opposed to Empire or Pirate factions too. |
Leafar Nightfall
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:57:00 -
[800] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: all i can say is missile bonus for gal is heresy...
if you are keen on keeping the missile bonus(something i wish was removed) then please make it the role bonus and make the drone hp/damage the skill bonus.
x1000 this
Missile bonus have a minor effect (since there's only two launchers) and is tied to a spaceship command skill, while the drone bonus, way more important, is a huge role bonus to which you have instant access as soon as you enter the ship? Doesn't seem right, specially with the missiles being related to the gallente skill.
IMO the missiles are a secondary/support weapon system in the Worm, and drones are the main. So there's no sense in putting damage bonuses for missiles as the effects will be minimal.
I'd prefer a lot more to have the drone bonus (whatever it is) tied to the gallente frigate skill, which makes much more sense.
As to which drone bonus is fit, I still find strange to have only drones with a 300% bonus to damage and hitpoints. The concept of having two "wingmans" is nice, but it would feel very strange to have a small drone alone to be as powerful as four. Just doesn't seem right, it sounds like it's there just to have a brand new bonus type to make the Worm exclusive.
Also, people usually train Drones V to be able to fly a full fleet of drones, and all out of sudden you have a ship with a 300% bonus that is "usable" for someone with Drones II. Sure you still need to have Drones V to train Drone Interfacing and make them fully effective, but it still sounds weird to have the Drones skill not directly affecting it.
I'd still prefer to see the Worm flying with 5 medium drones and no damage bonuses to missiles, then to have two "OP" light drones. Have the worm have a 50/50 drone bandwith/bay and a 10% tracking+hp/level bonus tied to gallente frigate skill, and it would feel way less weird, while having the tracking as a tradeoff for bigger drones, and one could still use the drone bay for two sets of light drones if wanted.
|
|
Leafar Nightfall
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:02:00 -
[801] - Quote
Ruaro wrote: And I have not too much familiar with drone assist - may it be delivered from safety of cloak or what mechanics if assisted drones are used in gank (some scenarios popped in my mind)?
I'm not familiar with it either, but it seems the worm bonus could make it broken
If the bonus given to drones is from the "assister" ship, you can have a fleet of worms assisting with OP drones. If the bonus is from the "assisted" ships, way worse: have a vexor give its drones to a Worm pilot and you'd have 28 effective drones
Is this how drone assisting works? can someone clarify? |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
180
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:11:00 -
[802] - Quote
Fun changes on paper. Not got the time to sit down and theorycraft but I'm looking forward to trying them. Although not half as much as I am looking forward to seeing how these will roll out to Cruisers and then the Battleships! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:12:00 -
[803] - Quote
Leafar Nightfall wrote:Ruaro wrote: And I have not too much familiar with drone assist - may it be delivered from safety of cloak or what mechanics if assisted drones are used in gank (some scenarios popped in my mind)?
I'm not familiar with it either, but it seems the worm bonus could make it broken If the bonus given to drones is from the "assister" ship, you can have a fleet of worms assisting with OP drones. If the bonus is from the "assisted" ships, way worse: have a vexor give its drones to a Worm pilot and you'd have 28 effective drones Is this how drone assisting works? can someone clarify? Drone assist works by using sentry drones dropped from carriers and using a small fast locking ship to fire them. So basically it has not relation in regards to the Worm, the Worm cannot even utilise a sentry drone. |
Leafar Nightfall
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:15:00 -
[804] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: Drone assist works by using sentry drones dropped from carriers and using a small fast locking ship to fire them. So basically it has not relation in regards to the Worm, the Worm cannot even utilise a sentry drone.
It only works with sentries?
If so, just forget what I said |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2319
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:42:00 -
[805] - Quote
Leafar Nightfall wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: Drone assist works by using sentry drones dropped from carriers and using a small fast locking ship to fire them. So basically it has not relation in regards to the Worm, the Worm cannot even utilise a sentry drone.
It only works with sentries? If so, just forget what I said
It works with other types of drones but its the coordinated volley fire that pisses people off about sentries.
Drone assist is used by other smaller groups for other reasons but if people are really worried about a frickin fleet of Woms then I have no idea what to do with you at all. If the idea of assisting drones pisses people off then they should probably get behind removing anchoring because its the same basic theory of giving up control of your ship to one person.
Basically theres nothing really to sweat about a fleet of worms, because its a t1 frigate fleet with t1 resists, and at that point you skip the drones and warp a smart bomb fitted Rokh into the fight and then collect a bunch of 20 million isk drones. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
759
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:47:00 -
[806] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:obligue me, im gonna keep posting until there's a general concensus, but those **** bonuses in the OP need to be taken off
The changes proposed in OP are great. will make some underused ships very popular. Your suggestions demonstrate why you are not a games designer. i hereby join the chorus asking you to stop. everyone likes the new ships. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Yankunytjatjara
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
104
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:51:00 -
[807] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks There's a major problem laying in wait of the changes as you put them: the DD with its 6 eq. small turrets is used because while being costly, it can kill something and get out before the blob lands. The dram is used because it can get out even without killing.
So, the changes to the laser frigs, not affecting their damage output, won't change the main issue these frigs have.
Please consider raising all role damage bonuses to 200%, mimicking the DD one. This makes the class balanced as a whole, gives all frigs a similar dps, but still keeps their diversity because each of them has the racial damage. Nerf a little bit here and there the soft attributes for balance.
(You could even tweak the worm giving it 1 more drone and a 200% damage bonus instead of 300, removing again the missile damage: this would give the entire class an elegant 200% role bonus)
My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
110
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:04:00 -
[808] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:STUFF Bertrand Butler wrote: STUFF what about this then: SUCCUBUS Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and Optimal RangeCaldari Frigate Bonus: 20% to Tracking Disruptor effectivenes and Optimal Range
Role Bonus: 200% to small energy turret damageslot layout: 3H/5M/2L one aditional med for putting the tracking disruptor, the rest of the meds are for tank/prop mods or whatever..... the 7,5% percent bonus mitigates the drawbacks of T2 crystals, the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets, the 20% bonus to tracking disruption means double the range and double the ******* of your enemy, it cannot brawl nor kite you....
I like it. Of course I'd like it most as 3/5/3 since you don't have a drone bay. But I'll take that depending on base stats for shield and speed and agility. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
110
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:09:00 -
[809] - Quote
The real problem with a shield tanking laser boat is that it needs both high cpu and grid compared to other vessels to compete. |
Windman Advena
Facehoof
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:10:00 -
[810] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
________ 6 effective drones will be Ok. (about 150 dps at any distance you like) With fitting&speed buff Worm will be nise. Just forget about missle bonus. It's not a missle ship.
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range only range
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
and do not buff speed ________ From frigate to BS neut range bonus fades but strength bonus adds. All 3 ships will be slow, but powerfull if you can keep enemy out of scram range. |
|
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
721
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:11:00 -
[811] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks
The Worm should either be a missile boat or a drone boat. Split weapons ships are either a pain to fit, or you end up having to ignore one of the weapons to get the most out of the other.
Personally, I like the Worm as a tanky tackle frigate with some decent drone damage. There are plenty of ships that do damage. If you want to make the Worm unique, give it some e-war bonus. ECM is fitting for Guristas, but a scram range would be useful too. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:22:00 -
[812] - Quote
A lot has been made of drone assist, but its really an insignificant thing to cause such a huge amount of butthurt.
All it does is allow you to tell your drones to attack the same thing someone else attacks. Your drones, using only the ability of your ship, wait for the chosen ship to fire or be fired upon, and then attack that enemy until dead. If the ship is already firing, they have to stop their guns and start them again for the drone to know to attack. If the enemy is already fireing on the assisted ship they will not attack unless some new attack is begun.
Nothing about this is affected in any way by the assisted ship other than the selection of target, and some of the rules and behavior of that is pretty clunky at times. The enemy attacked must be within the drone control range of the drone ship, as do the drones themselves.
It can be used to somewhat circumvent the locktime restrictions of larger ships as the drones themselves lock everything in 4 seconds, and they choose what to lock based upon their settings--- so if told to assist a frigate, and that frigate locks and then fires on something the drones will individually lock and fire on that thing too, without need for the drone ship to have locked anything.
That is all it is, other than the arbitrary new rule about only 50 drones being able to watch a single ship to see what it fires at.
The Worm, and if the trend continues up the chain all the other Gurista ships, will be able to make more effective use of this mechanic as their drones will be worth 4 of any other ships' drones. It does not have to be a sentry, but only sentries have inspired the rage as they are direct fireing rather than requiring flight time to target and so deliver much more efficient alpha strikes this way. |
Valterra Craven
150
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:42:00 -
[813] - Quote
Windman Advena wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
.
Someone was mentioning earlier how they really liked the versatility of the worm before hand as it could used with support drones. I really like that idea for this ship, and I like the old nos bonus proposed on the other ships.
So I've modified your idea slightly to this:
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to light drone effectiveness and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to light combat drone damage and 100% bonus to all light drone hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
This way you bonus other types of drones as well as combat drones to give this ship a unique flavor, without the stupid missile bonus that Rise likes to keep gimping missile boats with. Another poster mentioned that ships that get this bonus get more missile slots, but I don't think that's happening here to compensate. In other case I can attest to the resist profiles of t2 ships in general being insane in regards to those two damage types (have you looked at the Astarte recently?!) Even if people were to fill em/explosion holes, they are still going to be weaker against those types just because the therm/kin bonus is so dang high. |
Leafar Nightfall
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:50:00 -
[814] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote: That is all it is, other than the arbitrary new rule about only 50 drones being able to watch a single ship to see what it fires at.
The Worm, and if the trend continues up the chain all the other Gurista ships, will be able to make more effective use of this mechanic as their drones will be worth 4 of any other ships' drones. It does not have to be a sentry, but only sentries have inspired the rage as they are direct fireing rather than requiring flight time to target and so deliver much more efficient alpha strikes this way.
That's the part that I'm worried about
Like I said, I'm not intimate of drone assistance or drone assisted combats at all. But what I see is that with 25 Worms you'd be able to have a ship drone assisted by 200 "effective" drones. The closer you'd have to it today would be 10 Vexors lending their "7.5" effective drones which for 75 "effective" drones assisting, as their 7.5 cost 5 drones compared to the worms 8/2 ratio.
It may not become common or game breaking, but I see it as "exploitable" and contradictory. I see people complaining about excessive assignment of drones to one person, Devs propose capping it to 50 per ship, and on the other hand you'll have it "exploitable" to 200 effective drones per ship...
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:00:00 -
[815] - Quote
Leafar Nightfall wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote: That is all it is, other than the arbitrary new rule about only 50 drones being able to watch a single ship to see what it fires at.
The Worm, and if the trend continues up the chain all the other Gurista ships, will be able to make more effective use of this mechanic as their drones will be worth 4 of any other ships' drones. It does not have to be a sentry, but only sentries have inspired the rage as they are direct fireing rather than requiring flight time to target and so deliver much more efficient alpha strikes this way.
That's the part that I'm worried about Like I said, I'm not intimate of drone assistance or drone assisted combats at all. But what I see is that with 25 Worms you'd be able to have a ship drone assisted by 200 "effective" drones. The closer you'd have to it today would be 10 Vexors lending their "7.5" effective drones which for 75 "effective" drones assisting, as their 7.5 cost 5 drones compared to the worms 8/2 ratio. It may not become common or game breaking, but I see it as "exploitable" and contradictory. I see people complaining about excessive assignment of drones to one person, Devs propose capping it to 50 per ship, and on the other hand you'll have it "exploitable" to 200 effective drones per ship...
The problem with worring about it is that its not a real problem.
You get much the same effect by broadcasting a target and everyone firing at it. You dont even need all that quick reflexes, as the game runs in ticks of one second anyway. It was not an issue on anyones radar despite drones having always worked this way until the gallente ships got the range/tracking bonus (and Goonswarm decided it had to go). Logically so long as Gurista ships dont have that bonus then the mechanic is as balanced as it ever was, and there should still be no issue.
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:05:00 -
[816] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 12% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per lvl
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% to rocket and light missile max velocity
Role Bonus: 90% to drone microwarpdrive speed, tracking, falloff range and optimal range
drone bandwidth/drone bay: 25/50
12% drone damage and hitpoints equals to 3 aditional drones at lvl V skills, thus giving 8 effective drones, the 90% bonus makes unnecesary to use other drone mods apart of the damage ones, so the ship can focus in tank or other uses for its midslots
90% == 3 DNCs II/Omnis II without stacking penalty (totals to 90% speed, 90% optimal and falloff and 45% tracking)
with those statistics:
5 hobs II == 264 DPS (using 3 DDAs II)
now add T2 LMLs with Fury == 264+39 == 303 DPS (309 with rockets and Rage) that without adding implants and links and aditional rigs (guess people will shove drone durability enhancers instead of any missile stuff)
as a tradeoff the ship looses its resistance bonus..
gona quote this again, think of it at the following, the difference in a shield droneboat is that it needs to decide either drone mods or tank mods if not other things, this doesnt happen in an armor ship that can just fit whatever number of mods they want without gimping their tanking capabilities.
with this proposition the Gila and the Rattlesnake can get more tank or put ganking mods without worrying about mods, the ship sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus for the bonus of having 3 non penalized drone mods included, thus allowing it to tank more than it should do in its current state, or include things like jamming modules and that stuff. at the same time the ship keeps the powr of 8 drones at lvl V skills and a missile range bonus, so players can both kite and brawl, depending on what they want to do |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
92
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:24:00 -
[817] - Quote
Please don't let this conversation go back into a discussion on drone assist.
I fear that the drone bonus idea for the Worm won't be unique, as it seems like a test solution to the meta changes around drones to reduce server load by reducing the number of drones in space. I hope I'm wrong here, but the change was already done to drones once (Drone Interfacing skill making drones more effective, instead of putting out more drones), so I hope CCP is taking the long view on this change.
If this type of bonus is going to stay with just the Guristas line, then it might be unique and interesting. If it will eventually be carried over to most other drone ships to reduce the number of drones in space, and help with server load, then it really doesn't add to the flavor for the Guristas ships at all.
It also bothers me that neither of the Caldari skill based pirate factions (Sansha/Guristas) have any bonus to EWAR (ECM). Blood Raiders Neut/Vamp, Serpentis have Webs. At least in Incursions, Sansha rats jam, and Guristas definitely do. I know it was said that it was because EWAR drones haven't been rebalanced yet, but I don't know about ECM itself. It's been mentioned a few times, but there's been no discussion on it for a while. This might be an interesting way to go to get away from the split weapon system for missiles. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
760
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:33:00 -
[818] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks
Most of us love the new ships designs with just a few people making a ton of noise like always. The missile damage on the worm is a minor component of the dps and is fine. The cruor having a range bonus on the web so that it it can get into neut range is also fine. These ships all look well thought through and everyone is excited for the changes and actually seeing these ships in combat. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
92
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:53:00 -
[819] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ A few people pointed it out properly that the Worm with a T1 resist profile needs to kite to survive, and removing the missile velocity bonus makes it difficult to apply that damage. If the Guristas line is going to remain missile ships, make the missile bonuses matter- otherwise it's a waste for a damage source which is pretty much secondary.
CCP Rise wrote:And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places. I stated earlier that I really don't want to see ships with damage specific missile bonuses, as one of the advantage of missiles is the ability to select their damage type. It's almost never worth selecting to an unbonused damage type - someone would have to do the math on how low the resist hole would need to be to be worth it, but I think it would need to be pretty low.
It makes no sense why specific ships would have a bonus only to one type of missile damage, when the ships are capable of loading all missile types. This type of bonus reduces the flexibility of the weapon system and makes fights more predictable, since the opponent will easily know based on the ship type what resist they should use.
I don't see any other weapon systems using this type of bonus - it would be like arbitrarily making a ship like the Brutix have only a bonus to Thermal damage, or the Maller only do EM damage, despite the weapon system being capable of both types. Think of the upset that would cause.
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:16:00 -
[820] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:It also bothers me that neither of the Caldari skill based pirate factions (Sansha/Guristas) have any bonus to EWAR (ECM). Blood Raiders Neut/Vamp, Serpentis have Webs. At least in Incursions, Sansha rats jam, and Guristas definitely do. I know it was said that it was because EWAR drones haven't been rebalanced yet, but I don't know about ECM itself. It's been mentioned a few times, but there's been no discussion on it for a while. This might be an interesting way to go to get away from the split weapon system for missiles. I agree, giving Sansha ships an afterburner bonus seems as though it was just a case of, "we don't know what to do to make these ships more pvp, so lets just throw an afterburner on it", not considering all the more Caldari options available.
Making the Caldari skill give an afterburner bonus, (Caldari, renown for the slowest ships in the universe), makes very little sense to me.
Also the high tech Sansha's should have a more ingenious solution, just stick a bigger rocket pack on the back and make it go faster is something the Minmatar would do, not Sansha.
Another problem, putting an afterburner on a sansha ship means giving up a mid slot, in many cases that mid slot will be used for a shield mod, so using this afterburner bonus means you are sacrificing your shield. That is ok for a frigate, not so great for the phantasm, and awful for the Nightmare. What is the point of the bonus when it only works well on one ship.
I would much rather see something along the lines of an Ewar bonus, I was thinking Ewar drones, as that is unique, fits in with the lore as caldari use Ewar, and also Sansha love jamming things, and Amarr use drones quite a bit, so it would make some sense.
The other option I'm keen on is a 4% shield resist bonus, that way you are making the Sansha ships something you can't tackle head on in a similar sized ship, just pure shielded behemoth's which melt stuff. That is pretty much what they are renowned for now, but in the case of the Phantasm and Succubus, are not doing so well.
There are lots of interesting options, but although an afterburner bonus seems like it could be interesting on the frigate, there are too many reasons why it doesn't make sense, and too many other options which would be better.
I hope CCP Rise will look at the Sansha line up again as he did with the Industrials and as he has done with other ships in the past. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:29:00 -
[821] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:I stated earlier that I really don't want to see ships with damage specific missile bonuses, as one of the advantage of missiles is the ability to select their damage type. It's almost never worth selecting to an unbonused damage type - someone would have to do the math on how low the resist hole would need to be to be worth it, but I think it would need to be pretty low.
It makes no sense why specific ships would have a bonus only to one type of missile damage, when the ships are capable of loading all missile types. This type of bonus reduces the flexibility of the weapon system and makes fights more predictable, since the opponent will easily know based on the ship type what resist they should use.
I don't see any other weapon systems using this type of bonus - it would be like arbitrarily making a ship like the Brutix have only a bonus to Thermal damage, or the Maller only do EM damage, despite the weapon system being capable of both types. Think of the upset that would cause. Other weapons don't have the bonus limited to a particular type specifically because they are limited in damage type already. A hybrid damage bonus cannot bonus anything but Therm/Kin. Same with lasers and EM/therm. Projectiles don't have perfect selection and are limited to Kin/Ex with their T2 ammo in addition to missing ammo strong in some types at different ranges (No Kin focused SR ammo for instance).
Missiles can still switch to unbonused types which is a flexibility 2 other weapons don't have. And if the predictability of missiles really is causing people to fit against bonused types they would be opening the resists holes necessary to make switching worth while. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1018
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:58:00 -
[822] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:About the Worm, i think some of you are missing the point, overpowered is not a synonym of fun.
The Worm should remain a shield tanked frigate(Caldari) with 5/10 drones(Gallente), balance the ship bonus around this. Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives. 5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.
This makes me want to ask CCP Rise to take the final step, and push the Worm out with a 700% bonus to one drone.
Then we can cheer our brave little hero drone as it blackens the skies with the wrecks of our enemies!
(Until it got jammed or TD'd, anyway. But you have to admit, it'd be fun!) Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
CraftyCroc
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
216
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:18:00 -
[823] - Quote
Give the min race a warp speed buff! .. Dare I say a speed buff aswell- making the frigs viable tackle in null again.
Would scale up well.
Vaga's almost= Cyna's
Should not be the case
Mach - the warp speed for this ship is currently ridiculous |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:20:00 -
[824] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Other weapons don't have the bonus limited to a particular type specifically because they are limited in damage type already. A hybrid damage bonus cannot bonus anything but Therm/Kin. Same with lasers and EM/therm. Projectiles don't have perfect selection and are limited to Kin/Ex with their T2 ammo in addition to missing ammo strong in some types at different ranges (No Kin focused SR ammo for instance).
Missiles can still switch to unbonused types which is a flexibility 2 other weapons don't have. And if the predictability of missiles really is causing people to fit against bonused types they would be opening the resists holes necessary to make switching worth while.
Well that gets into a whole discussion around the advantages/disadvantages and differences between weapon systems. They're pretty balanced:
- Gun tracking speed against explosion velocity/radius bonuses - Gun Optimal/Falloff against Missile flight time - Gun ROF vs Missile ROF - Gun instant damage application with limited damage types, against missile delayed damage with more damage versatility - Gun potential for misses and critical hits vs missile damage consistency - Different susceptibility to EWAR and countermeasures (Tracking Distruption vs Firewalling) but that's again a whole other discussion.
My problem is if we can assert that the weapon systems are fairly balanced and different in their application, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. You want the different ships to play to the strengths of those weapon systems, and that's why I don't like seeing the missile damage versatility gimped - whether by limiting the damage types by hull, or extremely long reload times.
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:50:00 -
[825] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Other weapons don't have the bonus limited to a particular type specifically because they are limited in damage type already. A hybrid damage bonus cannot bonus anything but Therm/Kin. Same with lasers and EM/therm. Projectiles don't have perfect selection and are limited to Kin/Ex with their T2 ammo in addition to missing ammo strong in some types at different ranges (No Kin focused SR ammo for instance).
Missiles can still switch to unbonused types which is a flexibility 2 other weapons don't have. And if the predictability of missiles really is causing people to fit against bonused types they would be opening the resists holes necessary to make switching worth while. Well that gets into a whole discussion around the advantages/disadvantages and differences between weapon systems. They're pretty balanced: - Gun tracking speed against explosion velocity/radius bonuses - Gun Optimal/Falloff against Missile flight time - Gun ROF vs Missile ROF - Gun instant damage application with limited damage types, against missile delayed damage with more damage versatility - Gun potential for misses and critical hits vs missile damage consistency - Different susceptibility to EWAR and countermeasures (Tracking Distruption vs Firewalling) but that's again a whole other discussion. My problem is if we can assert that the weapon systems are fairly balanced and different in their application, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. You want the different ships to play to the strengths of those weapon systems, and that's why I don't like seeing the missile damage versatility gimped - whether by limiting the damage types by hull, or extremely long reload times.
This is all good in theory, but looking at BS's there is an inconsitence where guns get stronger bonuses to either efective weapons or application (more than 8 effective turrets, 7.5% tracking to name 2) |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
25
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:09:00 -
[826] - Quote
"Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there."
**** you. People spent years training for these skill intensive pirate faction ships and now you want to move in a "new and unique direction"? Guristas already uniquely combine the best drone and missile combo and you want to gimp them and make them niche?.
Really, **** you worthless devs and your careless ventures in "rebalancing". Bunch of inconsiderate assholes is what you are. |
Hoshi Sorano
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:11:00 -
[827] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: It's been mentioned that the missile damage bonus on the Worm doesn't make sense as a Gallente bonus and should be on the role bonus. I agree that it would be ideal to have it that way in terms of flavor but giving a 60% per level bonus would mean that the ship was basically unusable until you had Gallente Frigate 5 and we really don't like that. I see; so basically the lore of this game should be written on toilet paper for all the respect you have for it? You recognize that it's there, but you have no use for it aside from flushing it down the drain. Gallente are not missile specialists; there is absolutely no reason for a traditional Caldari missile bonus to be tied to a Gallente skill! The worst part is that there are any number of ways to do this differently and still maintain the lore, but you apparently don't care enough to put forth the effort.
If you can't figure out a way to put the missile bonus under the Caldari skill or as a role bonus, then take it out. If something doesn't fit, stop forcing it. If you have to have another weapons bonus (on top of the drones), then you could easily make it a hybrid turret bonus instead; it would maintain the same damage types and it would be thematically appropriate for both Gallente and Caldari. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
714
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:14:00 -
[828] - Quote
Terrible idea bringing the old school NOS effect.
I will say no more. Not today spaghetti. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2214
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:22:00 -
[829] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:"Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there."
**** you. People spent years training for these skill intensive pirate faction ships and now you want to move in a "new and unique direction"? Guristas already uniquely combine the best drone and missile combo and you want to gimp them and make them niche?.
Really, **** you worthless devs and your careless ventures in "rebalancing". Bunch of inconsiderate assholes is what you are. Butt hurt much? The Worm has lost nothing in terms of power and gained 60% drone damage, 300% drone HP, 50% missile damage for 2 types, increased power grid, and increased CPU at the cost of; What 3 drone models in space? Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:25:00 -
[830] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:"Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there."
**** you. People spent years training for these skill intensive pirate faction ships and now you want to move in a "new and unique direction"? Guristas already uniquely combine the best drone and missile combo and you want to gimp them and make them niche?.
Really, **** you worthless devs and your careless ventures in "rebalancing". Bunch of inconsiderate assholes is what you are.
I don't see the gimping here. I see a significant damage increase at the price of some missile range. The only functional problem with the drones is a much increased vunerability to Ewar, at a reduced vunerability to feeding the AI's dark hunger for drones.
What is wrong with it? |
|
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
25
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:42:00 -
[831] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote:"Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there."
**** you. People spent years training for these skill intensive pirate faction ships and now you want to move in a "new and unique direction"? Guristas already uniquely combine the best drone and missile combo and you want to gimp them and make them niche?.
Really, **** you worthless devs and your careless ventures in "rebalancing". Bunch of inconsiderate assholes is what you are. I don't see the gimping here. I see a significant damage increase at the price of some missile range. The only functional problem with the drones is a much increased vunerability to Ewar, at a reduced vunerability to feeding the AI's dark hunger for drones. What is wrong with it?
If themes are continuous, rattlesnake torpedo viability will decrease significantly if the missile velocity bonus is removed. Additionally, a lot of overall DPS will also be lost for sentry and cruise missile users since the delay between a missiles launching and a target being exterminated will increase, significantly delaying the damage application on a new target.
The guristas have the only shield tanked and drone missile ship in the game. They are already unique and the apparently moronic devs want to move them in a "new and unique" direction after people have spent years training these overly skill intensive ships? **** that. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:56:00 -
[832] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote: If themes are continuous, rattlesnake torpedo viability will decrease significantly if the missile velocity bonus is removed. Additionally, a lot of overall DPS will also be lost for sentry and cruise missile users since the delay between a missiles launching and a target being exterminated will increase, significantly delaying the damage application on a new target.
The guristas have the only shield tanked and drone missile ship in the game. They are already unique and the apparently moronic devs want to move them in a "new and unique" direction after people have spent years training these overly skill intensive ships? **** that.
They still are shield tanked with missiles and drones. It's the same direction but with a new method that still uses all of those same skills in pretty much the same ways. Yes the Ham Gila/Torp RS/Rocket Worm will suffer range challenges, at the same time their peak damage output would go up (assuming the changes get carried upwards). In the case of sentries your instant damage goes up as well. |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
25
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:58:00 -
[833] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: If themes are continuous, rattlesnake torpedo viability will decrease significantly if the missile velocity bonus is removed. Additionally, a lot of overall DPS will also be lost for sentry and cruise missile users since the delay between a missiles launching and a target being exterminated will increase, significantly delaying the damage application on a new target.
The guristas have the only shield tanked and drone missile ship in the game. They are already unique and the apparently moronic devs want to move them in a "new and unique" direction after people have spent years training these overly skill intensive ships? **** that.
They still are shield tanked with missiles and drones. It's the same direction but with a new method that still uses all of those same skills in pretty much the same ways. Yes the Ham Gila/Torp RS/Rocket Worm will suffer range challenges, at the same time their peak damage output would go up (assuming the changes get carried upwards). In the case of sentries your instant damage goes up as well.
Assumptions combined with negligence of significant nerfs.
half a drone isn't going to make up for that DPS loss and loss of overall viability. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:00:00 -
[834] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:lots of stupid assumptions. I only made one assumption, which is the same one you made in your complaint.
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Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:06:00 -
[835] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: If themes are continuous, rattlesnake torpedo viability will decrease significantly if the missile velocity bonus is removed. Additionally, a lot of overall DPS will also be lost for sentry and cruise missile users since the delay between a missiles launching and a target being exterminated will increase, significantly delaying the damage application on a new target.
The guristas have the only shield tanked and drone missile ship in the game. They are already unique and the apparently moronic devs want to move them in a "new and unique" direction after people have spent years training these overly skill intensive ships? **** that.
They still are shield tanked with missiles and drones. It's the same direction but with a new method that still uses all of those same skills in pretty much the same ways. Yes the Ham Gila/Torp RS/Rocket Worm will suffer range challenges, at the same time their peak damage output would go up (assuming the changes get carried upwards). In the case of sentries your instant damage goes up as well. lots of assumptions combined with negligence of significant nerfs.
You aren't at all excited about the potential for Brawling Torp Rattler with Super Ogres/Berserkers? |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
25
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:11:00 -
[836] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: If themes are continuous, rattlesnake torpedo viability will decrease significantly if the missile velocity bonus is removed. Additionally, a lot of overall DPS will also be lost for sentry and cruise missile users since the delay between a missiles launching and a target being exterminated will increase, significantly delaying the damage application on a new target.
The guristas have the only shield tanked and drone missile ship in the game. They are already unique and the apparently moronic devs want to move them in a "new and unique" direction after people have spent years training these overly skill intensive ships? **** that.
They still are shield tanked with missiles and drones. It's the same direction but with a new method that still uses all of those same skills in pretty much the same ways. Yes the Ham Gila/Torp RS/Rocket Worm will suffer range challenges, at the same time their peak damage output would go up (assuming the changes get carried upwards). In the case of sentries your instant damage goes up as well. lots of assumptions combined with negligence of significant nerfs. You aren't at all excited about the potential for Brawling Torp Rattler with Super Ogres/Berserkers?
Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and niched application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:17:00 -
[837] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?" |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:25:00 -
[838] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?"
He is against almost 900dps with no implants, rigs, or damage modules... |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
365
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:31:00 -
[839] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:"Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there."
**** you. People spent years training for these skill intensive pirate faction ships and now you want to move in a "new and unique direction"? Guristas already uniquely combine the best drone and missile combo and you want to gimp them and make them niche?.
Really, **** you worthless devs and your careless ventures in "rebalancing". Bunch of inconsiderate assholes is what you are.
I can't troll this post more than it has trolled itself. Well done.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2954
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:34:00 -
[840] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:If themes are continuous, rattlesnake torpedo viability will decrease significantly if the missile velocity bonus is removed. Additionally, a lot of overall DPS will also be lost for sentry and cruise missile users since the delay between a missiles launching and a target being exterminated will increase, significantly delaying the damage application on a new target. "Torpedo viability"? It's non-existent as is even with the missile velocity bonus. Torpedoes cannot apply 100% of their damage without webs, so range is somewhat moot at this point. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
683
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:35:00 -
[841] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?" He is against almost 900dps with no implants, rigs, or damage modules...
Mr Fabulous actually has good point (if poorly communicated). The navy dominix is a pure DPS play using drones and guns. Its damage output is over 1000dps before any implants or damage mods, and yet it sells for only 500 million or so - not far from the current rattlesnake's price.
This seems to show (to me) that people will not pay a large (pirate) premium for mere dps.
I think he's right. The rattlesnake will need more than just DPS to make it truly desirable and fearsome as a pirate battleship ought to be.
I mean, when I see a rattlesnake right now my first thought is, "gank it!". If I see a vindicator or machariel, my first thought is, "I need to be careful here..."
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Sixx Spades
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:40:00 -
[842] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: I mean, when I see a rattlesnake right now my first thought is, "gank it!". If I see a vindicator or machariel, my first thought is, "I need to be careful here..."
My first thought is "Cyno Bait", but I guess that's just me. Using a weapon as a deterrent in a diplomatic situation is only viable when you have proven that you have deployed it in the past and are willing to use it in the future. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:42:00 -
[843] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: If themes are continuous, rattlesnake torpedo viability will decrease significantly if the missile velocity bonus is removed. Additionally, a lot of overall DPS will also be lost for sentry and cruise missile users since the delay between a missiles launching and a target being exterminated will increase, significantly delaying the damage application on a new target.
The guristas have the only shield tanked and drone missile ship in the game. They are already unique and the apparently moronic devs want to move them in a "new and unique" direction after people have spent years training these overly skill intensive ships? **** that.
They still are shield tanked with missiles and drones. It's the same direction but with a new method that still uses all of those same skills in pretty much the same ways. Yes the Ham Gila/Torp RS/Rocket Worm will suffer range challenges, at the same time their peak damage output would go up (assuming the changes get carried upwards). In the case of sentries your instant damage goes up as well. lots of assumptions combined with negligence of significant nerfs. You aren't at all excited about the potential for Brawling Torp Rattler with Super Ogres/Berserkers?
no, not if that means only using 2 ******* drones.....and only scourge/inferno missiles/torpedoes..... |
Kesthely
Fleet of the Damned Ace of Spades.
136
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:42:00 -
[844] - Quote
First of all the positive feedback:
Succubus: I like the fact that the damage modifier is roled into the role bonus instead of the split between the Caldari and role bonus. It makes more sense to me this way. The new Slot allocation 3 H 4M 3L i think is an improvement as well. The speed and sig radius changes are nice.
Cruor: I like the destinction of the web bonus compared to the daredevil.
Worm: The increase in drone bay capacity to me always felt like a redundant bonus, i'm glad this one is changed.
Daredevil + Dramiel: I like the fact that they do not get nerfed.
However i do have my concerns with a few of these ships.
Succubus: The Succubus is still going to be abysmally poor for pvp compared to the other faction ships. Compare it to the Cruor, and you get roughly the same dps, slightly higher damage projection, at the loss of insane neut and web bonuses. To the Worm you have a lot less dps, and range, but more importantly alpha, the drones of a worm will be able to do an alpha of over 900 damage while i has the capability of fitting and flying long ranged and completly disrupt your turret range. The increased speed might help catching up, but if its a mwd worm you probably still won't catch up. It is worse in tackling and dps than the Daredevil and lacks the versatility of the dronebay of the Dramiel.
Although you can make a nice kiteing low sig ship out of the succubus, you don't want to spend the price of a faction frigate, for the role that a destroyer can do better.
The Cruor: I think this one is getting overbuffed. with a added drone bay, and extra web range, this will be like a Hyena, but then with more dps, and neut bonuses vs lower web range. Only specialized fleets will require the Hyena, in most cases the cruor will be better due to its flexibility. I don't think the Cruor will outperform the Sentinel, but it will definatly outshine the Dragoon. All in all it feels slightly TO good
Worm: Im concerned of the drone alpha damage it can deliver. The versatility of this one is really good, but i think it will emphasize even stronger how powerfull a drone or missile ship is against a gunship if you use range and a tracking disruptor.
Conclusion:
Really strong improvements on the Cruor and Worm, definatly more then pvp worthy now. I don't think the Succubus is where it needs to be. It lacks the flexibilty of the other faction frigates. Its a one trick pony with no fallbacks or diversity. With a speed thats only marginally faster then a dramiel with Afterburner, and significantly lower then with a mwd i don't think this bonus is going to help the succubus.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:43:00 -
[845] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?" He is against almost 900dps with no implants, rigs, or damage modules... Mr Fabulous actually has good point (if poorly communicated). The navy dominix is a pure DPS play using drones and guns. Its damage output is over 1000dps before any implants or damage mods, and yet it sells for only 500 million or so - not far from the current rattlesnake's price. This seems to show (to me) that people will not pay a large (pirate) premium for mere dps. I think he's right. The rattlesnake will need more than just DPS to make it truly desirable and fearsome as a pirate battleship ought to be. I mean, when I see a rattlesnake right now my first thought is, "gank it!". If I see a vindicator or machariel, my first thought is, "I need to be careful here..." Methods of acquisition often factor strongly into an items price. As such we won't likely see navy domi's soar high in price anytime soon. Conversely the nestor's price doesn't reflect what people see in it's usefulness. As such comparing the price of 2 ships with different acquisition methods and costs isn't terribly fair. On the other hand the other pirate ships which have all supported higher DPS or unique utility have always sold for significantly more than the RS. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:43:00 -
[846] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?" He is against almost 900dps with no implants, rigs, or damage modules... Mr Fabulous actually has good point (if poorly communicated). The navy dominix is a pure DPS play using drones and guns. Its damage output is over 1000dps before any implants or damage mods, and yet it sells for only 500 million or so - not far from the current rattlesnake's price. This seems to show (to me) that people will not pay a large (pirate) premium for mere dps. I think he's right. The rattlesnake will need more than just DPS to make it truly desirable and fearsome as a pirate battleship ought to be. I mean, when I see a rattlesnake right now my first thought is, "gank it!". If I see a vindicator or machariel, my first thought is, "I need to be careful here..."
Both the Rattler and it's drones would be supstantially harder to kill than the NDomi and it's drones. Ogres with that bonus would have insane eHP.
That said until we see what they do with the actual hull stats it is hard to argue bonuses. |
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures Rim Worlds Protectorate
27
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:51:00 -
[847] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Yazzinra wrote:
AFs were deemed overpowered with half the current succubus afterburner bonus. This could really use an answer.
They also have a much higher resist profile and higher damage output as well, whereas this particular ship has none of that. Those two things combined to make it just too much on the AF hull.
this is the current state of assault frigates. Before they were buffed, the afterburner bonus was considered and deemed overpowered.
fingers crossed we don't end up with another damn dramiel mess for the next two years. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
683
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:03:00 -
[848] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: Mr Fabulous actually has good point (if poorly communicated). The navy dominix is a pure DPS play using drones and guns. Its damage output is over 1000dps before any implants or damage mods, and yet it sells for only 500 million or so - not far from the current rattlesnake's price.
This seems to show (to me) that people will not pay a large (pirate) premium for mere dps.
I think he's right. The rattlesnake will need more than just DPS to make it truly desirable and fearsome as a pirate battleship ought to be.
I mean, when I see a rattlesnake right now my first thought is, "gank it!". If I see a vindicator or machariel, my first thought is, "I need to be careful here..."
Methods of acquisition often factor strongly into an items price. We won't likely see navy domi's soar high in price anytime soon. Conversely the nestor's price doesn't reflect what people see in it's usefulness. As such comparing the price of 2 ships with different acquisition methods and costs isn't terribly fair. On the other hand the other pirate ships which have all supported higher DPS or unique utility have always sold for significantly more than the RS.
I think I would argue that the unique utility of the vindicator, Machariel and bhaalgorn factor strongly in the price. They are truly dangerous to engage because once you have engaged the option to rethink is denied you (let's assume for now that a well-flown vindicator will have overheated faction webs and a fleet booster). Getting within 30km of a bhaalgorn results in entrapment through neuts and long webs, and a Machariel will dictate range and disengagement options unless you happen to land on it at zero and scram it.
A Rattlesnake on the other hand can be engaged safely by a smaller ship without committing to the fight. The rattlesnake has no way of punishing you by forcing you to stay if you decide it's too big a target. I think potential purchasers of the RS sense this and it puts them off.
It certainly encourages me to engage one every time I see one. Why not? I can always leave if it is cyno-fitted.
I reiterate, the new rattlesnake will need something scary if it is to be desirable and hold its place among its peers. In my view, an ECM strength bonus would be the correct way to go since it fits with Guristas NPC tactics. Maybe allow its ECM modules to defeat even a marauder in bastion mode, or a carrier in triage?
That would make it worth considering.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:09:00 -
[849] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: I think I would argue that the unique utility of the vindicator, Machariel and bhaalgorn factor strongly in the price. They are truly dangerous to engage because once you have engaged the option to rethink is denied you (let's assume for now that a well-flown vindicator will have overheated faction webs and a fleet booster). Getting within 30km of a bhaalgorn results in entrapment through neuts and long webs, and a Machariel will dictate range and disengagement options unless you happen to land on it at zero and scram it.
A Rattlesnake on the other hand can be engaged safely by a smaller ship without committing to the fight. The rattlesnake has no way of punishing you by forcing you to stay if you decide it's too big a target. I think potential purchasers of the RS sense this and it puts them off.
It certainly encourages me to engage one every time I see one. Why not? I can always leave if it is cyno-fitted.
I reiterate, the new rattlesnake will need something scary if it is to be desirable and hold its place among its peers. In my view, an ECM strength bonus would be the correct way to go since it fits with Guristas NPC tactics. Maybe allow its ECM modules to defeat even a marauder in bastion mode, or a carrier in triage?
That would make it worth considering.
This may well be true, but at the same time it doesn't refute the idea that a comparison between a navy faction BS and a pirate faction BS is less than fair save for pointing out that demand for a ship places it a tier lower than it's peers.
Honestly, your complaint as you state it is valid in my opinion, but it wasn't what Fabulous Rod seemed to be even slightly headed towards. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:22:00 -
[850] - Quote
ECM bonus would give us a 3rd ECM BS... Do we really need a third? |
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Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:29:00 -
[851] - Quote
something worth to mention is that pirate ships should reflect the doctrines of their NPC versions, never understood why they dont have bonuses for EWAR as the rats do:
-Sanshas:
caldari bonus: tracking disruptors
amarr bonus: laser tracking
role bonus: laser damage
-Blood Raiders:
minmatar bonus: web bonus
amarr bonus: energy drain systems
role bonus: laser damage
-Serpentis:
gallente bonus: sensor dampening
minmatar bonus: hybrid falloff
role bonus: hybrid damage
-Guristas:
gallente bonus: drones
caldari bonus: ECM
role bonus: drones or missiles
-Angels:
minmatar bonus: target painting
gallente bonus: projectile falloff
role bonus: projectile damage
of course this needs to be linked to a balance of EWAR modules cuz there seems to be an issue with the current performance of them....... |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
683
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:32:00 -
[852] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:ECM bonus would give us a 3rd ECM BS... Do we really need a third?
The only remotely comparable battleship would be the Widow, which requires a great deal of training and does not offer the longevity or damage potential of an equivalent rattlesnake.
The scopion has a very different role - ECM at extreme range, while the rattlesnake lends itself to brawling.
I think the rattlesnake would be a more favourable choice, unless you happened to need the ability to bridge covops ships.
ECM would give it a way to control the engagement while being strong enough to stay if it wished.
Perhaps a bonus to ECM burst only (range and strength) - that would be reasonable, allowing the ship to punch above its weight at the vanguard of a small to medium fleet. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:39:00 -
[853] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:ECM bonus would give us a 3rd ECM BS... Do we really need a third? The only remotely comparable battleship would be the Widow, which requires a great deal of training and does not offer the longevity or damage potential of an equivalent rattlesnake. The scopion has a very different role - ECM at extreme range, while the rattlesnake lends itself to brawling. I think the rattlesnake would be a more favourable choice, unless you happened to need the ability to bridge covops ships. ECM would give it a way to control the engagement while being strong enough to stay if it wished. Perhaps a bonus to ECM burst only (range and strength) - that would be reasonable, allowing the ship to punch above its weight at the vanguard of a small to medium fleet. Unlike webs or the machs ability to pursue it still leaves the RS without any enhanced ability to actually capture and hold a target. There is still a lack of need to commit. It could easily make it a more annoying target, but it plays more defensively than offensively unless it also gives up drone damage to augment tackle. In a fleet role maybe, but if the gang size/type dictates either high mobility or longer ranges the RS is still obsoleted by less expensive choices. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:42:00 -
[854] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:ECM bonus would give us a 3rd ECM BS... Do we really need a third? The only remotely comparable battleship would be the Widow, which requires a great deal of training and does not offer the longevity or damage potential of an equivalent rattlesnake. The scopion has a very different role - ECM at extreme range, while the rattlesnake lends itself to brawling. I think the rattlesnake would be a more favourable choice, unless you happened to need the ability to bridge covops ships. ECM would give it a way to control the engagement while being strong enough to stay if it wished. Perhaps a bonus to ECM burst only (range and strength) - that would be reasonable, allowing the ship to punch above its weight at the vanguard of a small to medium fleet.
I think that eats into the widow's niche pretty substantially and I don't think there is enough clamor for ecm BS's to warrant 3 small variants. I could be alone in that line of thought though. Where I am not alone is thinking that 3x new ECM ships would too much and basically ruin most low-sec fights that are already at about 50/50 shot of having a falcon involved. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 03:06:00 -
[855] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:ECM bonus would give us a 3rd ECM BS... Do we really need a third? The only remotely comparable battleship would be the Widow, which requires a great deal of training and does not offer the longevity or damage potential of an equivalent rattlesnake. The scopion has a very different role - ECM at extreme range, while the rattlesnake lends itself to brawling. I think the rattlesnake would be a more favourable choice, unless you happened to need the ability to bridge covops ships. ECM would give it a way to control the engagement while being strong enough to stay if it wished. Perhaps a bonus to ECM burst only (range and strength) - that would be reasonable, allowing the ship to punch above its weight at the vanguard of a small to medium fleet. I think that eats into the widow's niche pretty substantially and I don't think there is enough clamor for ecm BS's to warrant 3 small variants. I could be alone in that line of thought though. Where I am not alone is thinking that 3x new ECM ships would too much and basically ruin most low-sec fights that are already at about 50/50 shot of having a falcon involved.
that is more of the situation of the EWAR right now, until CCP balances EWAR as a whole then its an option that cannot be taken in account right now...... |
stoicfaux
4150
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:00:00 -
[856] - Quote
Guristas drone buffs should focus on the EW drones, specifically ECM.
I, for one, welcome our ECM (and TP, Sensor Damping, and Tracking Disrupting) sentry drones. WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
|
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2812
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:10:00 -
[857] - Quote
Sansha's should get reactive lasers which adjust their damage to their target's weakest resist over time. This would give them a Caldari trait (somewhat selectable damage) and make them very unique and amazing at something. Oh god. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:19:00 -
[858] - Quote
I am slightly confused as to why someone would hate the bonus given to the Worm based on what might be done to the Rattlesnake, at least with that much vehemence.
The Worm currently puts out 5 effective drones. The change gets it 8 by putting out 2 drones, each with as much or more HP than the hull itself.
Rise already stated its not limited to a 300% bonus, and if that trend is carried foward the Rattlesnake may see 2 drones worth 6.4 (12.8 total) effective drones, each with the HP of the hull, plus bonused launchers.
So what is wrong with the Worm? |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
25
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:47:00 -
[859] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?"
if you think the rattlesnake is going to get the same 50% bonus to thermal and kinetic damage, you would be dreaming.
if in the unlikely event it does get a bonus like that it is going to be paying in some other way that will gimp its overall viability, devs will make sure of that.
There is no reason to take any of the current bonuses away from from the rattlesnake or any Guristas ships. |
Sinooko
Gespenster Kompanie
60
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:50:00 -
[860] - Quote
I looked into the Cruor in faction warfare but ultimately decided against it because of how poorly it would work in solo and fleet fights.
In solo fights it is almost worthless when engaging frigates specialized in missiles, projectiles, and drones. One could argue that the NOS and Neuts would knock out their MWD and Reppers, but in the fast and vicious combat that is frigate PvP it didn't have the lasting power to wait for the enemy's cap to empty out.
In fleet fights it is a highly expensive ship that has to get really close to use its abilities. In other words, always the primary! Coupled with the fact that NOS and Neuts take time to be effective, it made the Cruor a poor option.
I recommend a few possible, possibly nutty options. 1. Extend the effective range of the ship allowing it to kite while using its abilities. 2. Make the NOS and Neuts burst heavily as soon as the module is activated with a looooong cycle time to offset that massive advantage. 3. Make it a true vampire by making it a shield tank and adding a shield vampire bonus to NOS so it effectively steals it's targets health.
All your cap are belong to me! Long Live Eve Online! |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:52:00 -
[861] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?" if you think the rattlesnake is going to get the same 50% bonus to thermal and kinetic damage, you would be dreaming. I see no reason why it wouldn't, We have ships with low numbers of weapons hardpoints and strong bonuses already, the Hyperion being one example. Granted I have no way of knowing if that is the plan, but there is no logical reason to assume it can't happen. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
345
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:53:00 -
[862] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Maybe if its torpedo viability weren't getting so significantly nerfed. I've never had a problem managing my drones and sentries. Guristas are getting **** on for .5 more of a drone and nich application of DPS.
Why do they need to remove anything from Guristas? Pull your heads out of your assholes, devs.
Did you just discount a 50% damage increase for 2 of 4 damage types for the very weapon you are complaining about as a "nich application of DPS?" if you think the rattlesnake is going to get the same 50% bonus to thermal and kinetic damage, you would be dreaming.
Why wouldn't it?
|
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2813
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:55:00 -
[863] - Quote
Sinooko wrote:In solo fights it is almost worthless when engaging frigates specialized in missiles, projectiles, and drones. One could argue that the NOS and Neuts would knock out their MWD and Reppers, but in the fast and vicious combat that is frigate PvP it didn't have the lasting power to wait for the enemy's cap to empty out. How many neuts is that with?
Quote:In fleet fights it is a highly expensive ship that has to get really close to use its abilities. I'm not really sure if getting into range to use the neut is the best way to fly it. I'm kinda thinking the idea is to keep people outside of your neut range. Oh god. |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
216
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:25:00 -
[864] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never. There's always EOM's. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Equilibrium_of_Mankind
EOM uses alot of missiles and has awesome looking ships, maybe you can do something with it.
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Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
721
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:40:00 -
[865] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:I am slightly confused as to why someone would hate the bonus given to the Worm based on what might be done to the Rattlesnake, at least with that much vehemence.
The Worm currently puts out 5 effective drones. The change gets it 8 by putting out 2 drones, each with as much or more HP than the hull itself.
Rise already stated its not limited to a 300% bonus, and if that trend is carried foward the Rattlesnake may see 2 drones worth 6 effective drones, each with the HP of the hull, plus bonused launchers.
So what is wrong with the Worm?
As others have already pointed out, the Guristas are already "unique" in being shield tanked drone boats. All they really need is there drone bonuses changed to be more in line with the recent changes to the Gallente ships. Like the tracking, range, and velocity bonuses that have been added.
Give the worm the regular 10% to damage and you get an effective 7.5 drones any way. The fixed 300% for an effective 8 drones is not that impressive. Especially when you factor in the other Gallente bonuses that allow drones to apply damage sooner (velocity) and land more wrecking shots (tracking). The drones being super tanky is not impressive when drones are pretty much disposable and are more often abandoned than destroyed.
If anything on the Guristas ships should be given such a complete over haul, it would be the missile bonuses. I'll admit that I'm biased. I use all the Guristas ships and _never_ fit any missiles on them. Split weapons suck, and CCP did a good job of sticking to that fact when rebalancing the T1 ships. Guristas can stay unique with the shield resists for defense, drones for damage, and the hull bonus should go to some other utility like ECM or scram range or remote reps. |
Tego lingnome
BGE Prophets Productions K-9 Productions
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:46:00 -
[866] - Quote
The change to the gurristas ships is a horrid idea. yes they overlap the domi and ishtar, but being shield ships they work well for those of us who like those fits. where does this leave the shield drone user? armor has 2 incredible BS platforms for the job, SOE, and the domi. what about the caldari who like a little drone play? |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
345
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 07:02:00 -
[867] - Quote
Tego lingnome wrote:The change to the gurristas ships is a horrid idea. yes they overlap the domi and ishtar, but being shield ships they work well for those of us who like those fits. where does this leave the shield drone user? armor has 2 incredible BS platforms for the job, SOE, and the domi. what about the caldari who like a little drone play?
Ya because Shield tanked ships can never make use of mods like Drone Damage Amps or BCU's to a greater extent than Armor ships.
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Donedy
Snuff Box
193
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 08:15:00 -
[868] - Quote
Why nerfing the cap/buffer daredevil?
It doesnt need it. |
Meandering Milieu
FML LLC
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 08:19:00 -
[869] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mr Fabulous actually has good point (if poorly communicated). The navy dominix is a pure DPS play using drones and guns. Its damage output is over 1000dps before any implants or damage mods, and yet it sells for only 500 million or so - not far from the current rattlesnake's price.
Gotta dispute this just a tad, as a navy domi pilot.
My skills aren't perfect, but looking in EFT, with all lvl V skills, A domi with a full rack of 425mm rails, javelin ammo, and garde IIs, pulls around 800dps. 795 with cal navy AM, 810 with dread guristas AM.
The only way you can get 1000dps out of the stock navy domi without dmg mods and implants, is to fit neutron blasters and void. Cal Navy and Dread Guristas AM still fall short of the 1000dps mark. The tracking comps needed to make this viable for most pve force you into armor tanking it, which kills your tank compared to shields, and straps the powergrid to near breaking point. This makes it impossible to really fit an AB. Further, even with 3 tracking comps you need to use null ammo, which brings you below that 1k base dps you were talking about.
Basically the only time I can see a 1000 base dps navy domi ever existing is as a buffer tanked bait ship, because otherwise there is no scenario for it that makes sense. The 1200-1400 dps navy domi I've seen most people use, for missioning/pve, requires almost all lows go to damage mods, a shield tank, and therefor fewer omnis or tracking comps, which force your hand into different ammos/drones for anything outside of 50km (even with two fed navy tracking links from my old domi, my gardes miss at 50km often. After the omni changes I switched back to T2) . This brings your dps lower again despite your efforts.
On paper at least, I pull roughly 1250dps at 45km. After that I have to switch ammo, bringing me to about 1050dps, even with a full rack of damage mods. Even with all skills at lvl V, the changing ammo required for distance has a similar decline.
This all said I have nothing against the rattlesnake, and think it needs love. I just dislike the idea of people considering the domi, navy or otherwise, to be an insanely powerful wtfbbqpwn ship out of stock, with no enhancement mods or sacrifices necessary to pull good dps. The truth is for good dps and tank you have to sacrifice utility ( midslots) and for good utility you have to sacrifice dps and tank (lowslots, shield to armor. ) This is actually kind of balanced.
Sorry for ranting. >.>
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1133
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 08:58:00 -
[870] - Quote
IMO the only way to make a Guristas ECM bonus desirable is to give it a huge ECM strength bonus, then limit the ship to a single ECM mod.
If you allowed it to fit any number of ECM mods, then the huge strength bonus would just be OP, so you'd have to have a weaker one, at which point you've just recreated any other ECM boat, which is a total waste of everyone's time.
Or give it bonuses to ECM Bursts. FOF-Rattler fleets with bastioned/triaged drone bunnies! \o/ |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:22:00 -
[871] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:something worth to mention is that pirate ships should reflect the doctrines of their NPC versions, never understood why they dont have bonuses for EWAR as the rats do:
-Sanshas:
caldari bonus: tracking disruptors
amarr bonus: laser tracking
role bonus: laser damage
-Blood Raiders:
minmatar bonus: web bonus
amarr bonus: energy drain systems
role bonus: laser damage
-Serpentis:
gallente bonus: sensor dampening
minmatar bonus: hybrid falloff
role bonus: hybrid damage
-Guristas:
gallente bonus: drones
caldari bonus: ECM
role bonus: drones or missiles
-Angels:
minmatar bonus: target painting
gallente bonus: projectile falloff
role bonus: projectile damage
of course this needs to be linked to a balance of EWAR modules cuz there seems to be an issue with the current performance of them.......
LEave PVE out of this.. an that includes NPC.
Sansha NPCS are stilla rmor tanked if you fail to remember! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:23:00 -
[872] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Sinooko wrote:In solo fights it is almost worthless when engaging frigates specialized in missiles, projectiles, and drones. One could argue that the NOS and Neuts would knock out their MWD and Reppers, but in the fast and vicious combat that is frigate PvP it didn't have the lasting power to wait for the enemy's cap to empty out. How many neuts is that with? Quote:In fleet fights it is a highly expensive ship that has to get really close to use its abilities. I'm not really sure if getting into range to use the neut is the best way to fly it. I'm kinda thinking the idea is to keep people outside of your neut range.
What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:25:00 -
[873] - Quote
Kesthely wrote:First of all the positive feedback:
Succubus: I like the fact that the damage modifier is roled into the role bonus instead of the split between the Caldari and role bonus. It makes more sense to me this way. The new Slot allocation 3 H 4M 3L i think is an improvement as well. The speed and sig radius changes are nice.
Cruor: I like the destinction of the web bonus compared to the daredevil.
Worm: The increase in drone bay capacity to me always felt like a redundant bonus, i'm glad this one is changed.
Daredevil + Dramiel: I like the fact that they do not get nerfed.
However i do have my concerns with a few of these ships.
Succubus: The Succubus is still going to be abysmally poor for pvp compared to the other faction ships. Compare it to the Cruor, and you get roughly the same dps, slightly higher damage projection, at the loss of insane neut and web bonuses. To the Worm you have a lot less dps, and range, but more importantly alpha, the drones of a worm will be able to do an alpha of over 900 damage while i has the capability of fitting and flying long ranged and completly disrupt your turret range. The increased speed might help catching up, but if its a mwd worm you probably still won't catch up. It is worse in tackling and dps than the Daredevil and lacks the versatility of the dronebay of the Dramiel.
Although you can make a nice kiteing low sig ship out of the succubus, you don't want to spend the price of a faction frigate, for the role that a destroyer can do better.
The Cruor: I think this one is getting overbuffed. with a added drone bay, and extra web range, this will be like a Hyena, but then with more dps, and neut bonuses vs lower web range. Only specialized fleets will require the Hyena, in most cases the cruor will be better due to its flexibility. I don't think the Cruor will outperform the Sentinel, but it will definatly outshine the Dragoon. All in all it feels slightly TO good
Worm: Im concerned of the drone alpha damage it can deliver. The versatility of this one is really good, but i think it will emphasize even stronger how powerfull a drone or missile ship is against a gunship if you use range and a tracking disruptor.
Conclusion:
Really strong improvements on the Cruor and Worm, definatly more then pvp worthy now. I don't think the Succubus is where it needs to be. It lacks the flexibilty of the other faction frigates. Its a one trick pony with no fallbacks or diversity. With a speed thats only marginally faster then a dramiel with Afterburner, and significantly lower then with a mwd i don't think this bonus is going to help the succubus.
Wrong.. Cruor is useless now. REad the other explanations. You cannot use yoru nets because you need to enter enemy web range. and when both are webbed you are SLOWER than any other frigate, therefore unable to reahc your target.
The succubus is by FAR the most powerful of the changes.
Just learn to use them and annalyse them outside a spreadsheet. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
345
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:30:00 -
[874] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:IMO the only way to make a Guristas ECM bonus desirable is to give it a huge ECM strength bonus, then limit the ship to a single ECM mod.
If you allowed it to fit any number of ECM mods, then the huge strength bonus would just be OP, so you'd have to have a weaker one, at which point you've just recreated any other ECM boat, which is a total waste of everyone's time.
Or give it bonuses to ECM Bursts. FOF-Rattler fleets with bastioned/triaged drone bunnies! \o/
Because EVE needs 3 ECM BS people won't use because they suck. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:31:00 -
[875] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks Most of us love the new ships designs with just a few people making a ton of noise like always. The missile damage on the worm is a minor component of the dps and is fine. The cruor having a range bonus on the web so that it it can get into neut range is also fine. These ships all look well thought through and everyone is excited for the changes and actually seeing these ships in combat.
No , the peopel makign the noise funnily enough are the people that are in groups known for using pirate ships. Interestign huh?
The cruor CANNOT uset he web bonus to get into neut range! You web at 26 km.. You start to approach (remember you target range is under 7 km).. when you reach 13 km,, you are also webbed. Suddenly youa re movign SLOWER than your target (because blood raiders simply are VERY slow. Now you are FATED to stay around 10 km from your target. Until you are dead... unable to use your neuts.
Web range works much better on ashimmu because the enemy web range is roughly the range of neuts, so the margin for enemy to exploit this is MUCH smaller. ON the bhaalghorn it works great, because your web range matches the range of your neuts.
At end, these changes are HORRIBLE for the cruor. It becomes just another hyena. One option would make the Cruor have a neut RANGE bonus and leave neut strenght for bhaalghorn. Ashimmu I would be divided... range would be more interestign because it would not clash with the legion for the role of heavy cruiser neut ship. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:32:00 -
[876] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus?
Its by far the best and Most pwoerful bonus that ANY of the pirate shisp recieve bar the serpentis bonus.
Just check what a succubus does with a 10 mn ab!!!! MWD are pathwetically horrible in small scale warfare nowadays because of inties with scrams!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
345
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:36:00 -
[877] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I am slightly confused as to why someone would hate the bonus given to the Worm based on what might be done to the Rattlesnake, at least with that much vehemence.
The Worm currently puts out 5 effective drones. The change gets it 8 by putting out 2 drones, each with as much or more HP than the hull itself.
Rise already stated its not limited to a 300% bonus, and if that trend is carried foward the Rattlesnake may see 2 drones worth 6 effective drones, each with the HP of the hull, plus bonused launchers.
So what is wrong with the Worm? Give the worm the regular 10% to damage and you get an effective 7.5 drones any way. The fixed 300% for an effective 8 drones is not that impressive. Especially when you factor in the other Gallente bonuses that allow drones to apply damage sooner (velocity) and land more wrecking shots (tracking). The drones being super tanky is not impressive when drones are pretty much disposable and are more often abandoned than destroyed.
I am sure the idea is to trial a ship bonus that reduces drone numbers. So events like HED-GP Do not happen in the future. Reducing drones has to be part of the game moving forward because they have once again become the largest strain on the server during fleet flights (thanks CFC.)
There is nothing wrong with giving this ship a massive drone bonus and reducing the number of drones it can field. Unless someone wants to willingly cause server lag to force CCP to make a kneejerk change to a decade old system that was never an issue before. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:42:00 -
[878] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Ill say it again, 90% are to strong, and 20% web range is to weak.
When comparing these, 90% web = 4-5x 60% webs. What other modules get these bonuses (even the new worm drone bonuses are not that strong)
20% web range make very little diffrence, make it 30% as recon ships get or stronger. Even at 50%/level i would likely take current web strenght if i could choose
You realize your nonsense? What would help to have a web range larger than your lock range? This is not the ashimmu, its a FRIGATE! witht he proposed bonus it can already web over 30 km with links or faction web. 50% per level would mean like 50 km!!!! Cruor cannot even lock a target that far!
Peopel need to stop ananlysign the ships on a spreadsheet!!!
Think in combat how the bonuses would affect the combat!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1314
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 09:45:00 -
[879] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I am slightly confused as to why someone would hate the bonus given to the Worm based on what might be done to the Rattlesnake, at least with that much vehemence.
The Worm currently puts out 5 effective drones. The change gets it 8 by putting out 2 drones, each with as much or more HP than the hull itself.
Rise already stated its not limited to a 300% bonus, and if that trend is carried foward the Rattlesnake may see 2 drones worth 6 effective drones, each with the HP of the hull, plus bonused launchers.
So what is wrong with the Worm? Give the worm the regular 10% to damage and you get an effective 7.5 drones any way. The fixed 300% for an effective 8 drones is not that impressive. Especially when you factor in the other Gallente bonuses that allow drones to apply damage sooner (velocity) and land more wrecking shots (tracking). The drones being super tanky is not impressive when drones are pretty much disposable and are more often abandoned than destroyed. I am sure the idea is to trial a ship bonus that reduces drone numbers. So events like HED-GP Do not happen in the future. Reducing drones has to be part of the game moving forward because they have once again become the largest strain on the server during fleet flights (thanks CFC.) There is nothing wrong with giving this ship a massive drone bonus and reducing the number of drones it can field. Unless someone wants to willingly cause server lag to force CCP to make a kneejerk change to a decade old system that was never an issue before.
It makes a huge difference on ewar bous and repair bonus department.
It woudl not make a difference if the drone bonus sould apply to the effect of ALL types of drone "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 10:13:00 -
[880] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I am slightly confused as to why someone would hate the bonus given to the Worm based on what might be done to the Rattlesnake, at least with that much vehemence.
The Worm currently puts out 5 effective drones. The change gets it 8 by putting out 2 drones, each with as much or more HP than the hull itself.
Rise already stated its not limited to a 300% bonus, and if that trend is carried foward the Rattlesnake may see 2 drones worth 6 effective drones, each with the HP of the hull, plus bonused launchers.
So what is wrong with the Worm? As others have already pointed out, the Guristas are already "unique" in being shield tanked drone boats. All they really need is there drone bonuses changed to be more in line with the recent changes to the Gallente ships. Like the tracking, range, and velocity bonuses that have been added. Give the worm the regular 10% to damage and you get an effective 7.5 drones any way. The fixed 300% for an effective 8 drones is not that impressive. Especially when you factor in the other Gallente bonuses that allow drones to apply damage sooner (velocity) and land more wrecking shots (tracking). The drones being super tanky is not impressive when drones are pretty much disposable and are more often abandoned than destroyed. If anything on the Guristas ships should be given such a complete over haul, it would be the missile bonuses. I'll admit that I'm biased. I use all the Guristas ships and _never_ fit any missiles on them. Split weapons suck, and CCP did a good job of sticking to that fact when rebalancing the T1 ships. Guristas can stay unique with the shield resists for defense, drones for damage, and the hull bonus should go to some other utility like ECM or scram range or remote reps. Maybe this is just me, but I really hope for something out of this other than the RS being a shield domi. The idea present is novel and while the bonus isn't much over the standard bonus, one must consider that at the frigate level that bonus is anything but standard. The ishkur, tristan and astero have 5 drones with no damage bonus, making the worms damage potential with it's drones comparatively huge.
If it remains the same at higher levels, sure, there is room for complaint, but I'll wait to see, then call foul.
Regarding other bonuses, I loathe ECM and it seems like a waste of a pirate hull and RR seems like just a shield mirror of the nestor. Really, even if you went with the domi bonuses wouldn't that have to bump the hull bonus anyways since youd be retaining the damage and shield bonus? |
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1133
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 11:01:00 -
[881] - Quote
There's nothing unique about being a shield-tanked droneboat, at least not in any fashion that matters. When people talk about uniqueness and priate factions, they mean super neuts/webs or extreme mobility. One of the problems with the current Guristas (and Sansha!) ships is that they're just generic tank 'n' gank ships, that they offer nothing that other ships don't also offer. So the current proposal is worrying because it's just more of the same. The super drones are fun, but they have no really useful intrinsic ability, although when we get up to the Rattler, the volley damage of a cluster of assigned sentries might be a bit fun.
Having said all that, it doesn't necessarily follow that a pirate ship absolutely needs a "special" ability. If the gank 'n' tank stats are powerful enough, it can still be desirable and of similar value to its counterparts. I don't know whether the proposed Worm is that ship, and we know nothing about the Gila and Rattler. So I don't really know what point I'm trying to make here...
Anyway, if we don't need another ECM BS, another idea for a Guristas bonus is a bonus to all ewar strength, giving you the ability to fit TDs, RSDs, ECM or painters as desired.
Also, let pirates get the most from pirate ships! Give all pirate ships a fourth bonus that is dependent on security status and hence only available to outlaws. If you're -10 you get the full strength bonus, if you're above -5 you get nothing. Disclaimer - I'm not an outlaw. |
Sway M4G
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 11:08:00 -
[882] - Quote
Im seriously looking forward to the ashimuu web range buff it will be feared so much more! |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1315
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 11:52:00 -
[883] - Quote
Sway M4G wrote:Im seriously looking forward to the ashimuu web range buff it will be feared so much more!
depend on how much they fizzle with the hull itself. If they correct they UBER slow behavior and hard to fit issues then yes.... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 11:55:00 -
[884] - Quote
I think that giving Sansha ships an afterburner bonus is going to be horribly out of place. It seems as though it was just a case of, "we don't know what to do to make these ships better at pvp, so lets just throw an afterburner on it", not considering all the more suitable Caldari options available. Making the Caldari skill give an afterburner bonus, (Caldari, renown for the slowest ships in the universe), makes very little sense.
The high tech Sansha's should have a more ingenious solution, just stick a bigger rocket pack on the back and make it go faster is something the Minmatar would do, not Sansha.
Therefore I was thinking over a few different options. A shield resistance bonus instead would be nice, but would not scale well with the Nightmare getting the largest buff and the succubus getting relatively little. Also Sansha ships need a bonus which will make them more interesting to be used in PVP. For this reason I believe a ECM drone bonus would be much better placed.
An ECM drone bonus would offer something unique, and it also fits in with the lore as Caldari use ECM, Sansha are known for using jammers, and Amarr use drones as their secondary weapon system these days.
After running a few numbers on how to balance the ECM drones effectively, (as doubling the effectiveness of the ECM drones jamming capability is a much greater boost than simply doubling the amount of drones), I find that a 10% bonus per level would offer a good balance. In return I took down the tracking speed bonus slightly.
As a rough draft the ships could look something like this;
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage & tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to ECM Drone sensor jamming strength per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20m3 (+20m3) / 20m3 (+20m3)
PHANTASM
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage & tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to ECM Drone sensor jamming strength per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40m3 (+25m3) / 40m3 (+25m3)
NIGHTARE
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage & tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to ECM Drone sensor jamming strength per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100m3 (+25m3) / 100m3 (+25m3)
Being able to field 4 drones of the ship classes maximum size makes a lot of sense, if you drop it to 3 or less then it will always be more beneficial for the ship to field a maximum flight of lower sized drones. Having 4 means that there are options to field smaller drones, although to get the maximum jamming ability you will need to field the largest drone size possible.
In summary I think this would make Sansha ships a lot more interesting, and would make them all very effective in pvp, whilst leaving the nightmare relatively unchanged in PVE. It would also have the benefit of fitting in with the current lore.
I would be grateful for any thoughts or opinions on these proposals. |
Naomi Anthar
304
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 13:10:00 -
[885] - Quote
Medalyn Isis
I will be honest i think everything you proposed sounds horrible to me.
I will explain why.
First of all you reduce tracking bonus from 7.5% to 5% ? WTF this ship needs no single nerf in first place. Lasers track like ****. It should be more 10% per level or 12,5%. Unless you want to nerf this "overused" succubus hull even harder.
Next thing ECM bonus - you know what ? That is blant and dull bonus you try to throw in. Sansha got nothing in common with ECM , other than that they are somehow connected to Caldari. Sansha is described as good with TD and neutralizers(yes really thats why they used to have so many utility highs). But i don't want ewar bonus on this ship. It's not mandatory - look angel ships - especially cyna and mach , do they need ewar to be popular ships ?
DEVs did really great job to give this ship COMPLETLY unique bonus that is going to make it powerful. GJ CCP on succubus, tho i don't like that you gimp it's pwg/cpu - it should be best among all - especially that it's lasers + shields... that eats lot of cpu and pwg.
Another thing you mentioned was adding drones ... listen not every hull must be full of those little buggers. I really don't like how dull and old solution it is. Just throw in some drones and here you go... cmon you can sure actually think about something out there.
And another thing CCP - don't be afraid of those buffs, you can fix this after if things go out of control.(and even if it does hell they deserve to be "feared" - read succubus description). But Succubus/Worm/Cruor needs massive buffs. They were useless for years. And they should be best among all frigs along with daredevil and dramiel (it's lacking tbh). |
Shade Millith
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 13:11:00 -
[886] - Quote
I'm kind of sad that the Succubus is losing a highslot. Duel NOS was a pretty powerful tool against neuting.
But that AB bonus! |
Naomi Anthar
304
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 13:16:00 -
[887] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:I'm kind of sad that the Succubus is losing a highslot. Duel NOS was a pretty powerful tool against neuting.
But that AB bonus!
Man i would give away 2nd utility high without hesitation on this ship for mid or low. The worst part about succubus is it slot layout atm ;).
Cruor suffers from same problem , but you kinda cannot help it too much. Removing utility high ... ? When you got bonus. Yeah exactly but it cannot get decent tank in lows and mids are stuck with prop/point/web combo forever. Unless you use some gimp 2x web or cap booster/web for gang combo.
All in all even on cruor i would drop one utility high for low ... but that is just my PoV. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 13:20:00 -
[888] - Quote
I see your point about the tracking bonus, that could certainly be altered. I just felt adding an ECM drone bonus was quite powerful, and so perhaps tracking could be sacrificed slightly as then at least ships would have some method to counter if the Sansha ships are not using enough webs.
Regarding the ECM drones bonus, I feel like sticking an afterburner on is a little more generic. I don't dislike the bonus, although it just feel out of place on sansha ships, and would be much better placed on the blood raider ships. (swap the web bonus with an afterburner bonus, low sig armour tanking ship with afterburner bonus makes a lot more sense).
Also, Sansha do have links with Caldari and Amarr, so ECM and drones do make a lot more sense that an afterburner bonus. Also look at the Revenant, it has massively bonused drones, so Sansha obviously know what they are doing when it comes to drone warfare. This could be reflected across their whole class of ships. |
Naomi Anthar
304
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 13:34:00 -
[889] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:I see your point about the tracking bonus, that could certainly be altered. I just felt adding an ECM drone bonus was quite powerful, and so perhaps tracking could be sacrificed slightly as then at least ships would have some method to counter if the Sansha ships are not using enough webs. Regarding the ECM drones bonus, I feel like sticking an afterburner on is a little more generic. I don't dislike the bonus, although it just feel out of place on sansha ships, and would be much better placed on the blood raider ships. (swap the web bonus with an afterburner bonus, low sig armour tanking ship with afterburner bonus makes a lot more sense). Also, Sansha do have links with Caldari and Amarr, so ECM and drones do make a lot more sense that an afterburner bonus. Also look at the Revenant, it has massively bonused drones, so Sansha obviously know what they are doing when it comes to drone warfare. This could be reflected across their whole class of ships.
Going that direction we can say all races are drone based friend ;).
Hel and Nidhogur , wyvern and chimera ;). Revenant is more like ... mothership of Sansha nation. A unique vessel not concept for entire faction. Afterburner sure sounds innovative for Sansha, but you know what ? It's cool not everything needs to be 4% shield resist per level or flat damage bonus etc.
I think you should wait for test servers to check out if you like that boat. I usually don't go on test servers. But this time i'm really curious. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2814
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 14:36:00 -
[890] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all? I'm talking about solo and bonus webs do help your fleet. Do you think the Cruor needs to use its neuts on every ship it sees to be effective? Oh god. |
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Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 15:14:00 -
[891] - Quote
Hello CCP Rise,
i understand that the 'old' Dramiel had some balance issues scratching on the edge of being overpowered and has gotten a slight mobility, and a somewhat severe fitting reduction to bring it in line with other ships back then. After that, a general Frigate Balance pass was brought out, with the whole T1 lineup becoming as awesome as it is now. A Navy-Frigate Rebalance has also been deployed already, especially notable here is how the Firetail went from 'Rifter MK2' to a ... well, Rifter MK7? Dramiel Lite? Whatever it has become, i like it. However, if i want to upgrade from a Firetail to another Frigate that is similar in it's versatility and general stats, but just better, ... i run into a dilemma. Either i try the Dramiel, easy to get the same performance like a Firetail, but to get significantly better and to justify the pricetag, i have to put in so much ISK (not for better modules, but for making all the stuff actually FIT that i want to put on there!), that i really can't justify the pricetag. For me it feels like i need to pimp it out so much, that i have the ability to gtfo whenever needed, that i have to play supersafe. Like, OGB, Pirate-Imps, Backup-Griffins. (Note: When i do frigate PvP, it's mostly inside FW space, ... since almost no frig can pick on cruisers or above on their own today.) I don't like this, i like true solo piloting. Which is okay, i can make the Dram cheaper *cough* and end up with 10 times the pricetag for basically just better topspeed and slightly better caplife. If i want to go into Assault-Frigates, i have another serious issue: Mobility. I might have by far better stats regarding dps, tank and stuff, but it comes at a cost of nearly 400m/s if i adapt my Firetail onto a Jaguar.
So all in all, the Firetail seems to me like the golden mid of Jag and Dramiel, for a fracture of the pricetag of each. Now please don't get me wrong, don't you even dare nerfing the firetail, but is there any hope to get at least *SOME* notable changes for the Dramiel? ... Or the Jaguar? It could really use base-speed. Look at it, Rise. It's so damn slow, there are some cruisers that have similar speeds. Man, the other AFs are even slower!
Okay, this got slightly offtopic now, so summary:
Dramiel no real upgrade from Firetail, it's more of a T1 Interceptor, without the Warp-Speed, without the Bubble-Immunity, without the tank, at a lot more of the pricetag, so maybe it's time to push it into a more combat than just speed orientated role? For example: Cut some topspeed, give back fittings? |
Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
339
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 15:17:00 -
[892] - Quote
[Kagura Nikon wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus? Its by far the best and Most pwoerful bonus that ANY of the pirate shisp recieve bar the serpentis bonus. Just check what a succubus does with a 10 mn ab!!!! MWD are pathwetically horrible in small scale warfare nowadays because of inties with scrams!!!
I'm not stating it isn't a usefull bonus, I'm stating it doesn't make sence.
Sansha is a Amnar Caldari mix, although a ab bonus might be useull it has nothing to do with either of those factions.
give it a bonus that is actualy Caldari, they are the least represented in all the pirate factions and as it is now (pre Reballance )they only provide one bonus and that is the shield resist on the Gurista ships. |
Shpenat
Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation The Obsidian Front
65
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 15:23:00 -
[893] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Wrong.. Cruor is useless now. REad the other explanations. You cannot use yoru nets because you need to enter enemy web range. and when both are webbed you are SLOWER than any other frigate, therefore unable to reahc your target.
The succubus is by FAR the most powerful of the changes.
Just learn to use them and annalyse them outside a spreadsheet.
Slower? The Cruor is on par with gallente frigates. It its base speed is higher than most amarr and caldari frigates. So how is it slower?
Or were you only comparing it to other 4 pirate frigates out of which 3 happens to be based on high mobility?
Generally I think the web range bonus is extremely powerful. Especially in catching ships at gates. I can axpect a lot of loki and rapiers being exchanged for this little bugger. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 15:24:00 -
[894] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:[ Kagura Nikon wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus? Its by far the best and Most pwoerful bonus that ANY of the pirate shisp recieve bar the serpentis bonus. Just check what a succubus does with a 10 mn ab!!!! MWD are pathwetically horrible in small scale warfare nowadays because of inties with scrams!!! I'm not stating it isn't a usefull bonus, I'm stating it doesn't make sence. Sansha is a Amnar Caldari mix, although a ab bonus might be useull it has nothing to do with either of those factions. give it a bonus that is actualy Caldari, they are the least represented in all the pirate factions and as it is now (pre Reballance )they only provide one bonus and that is the shield resist on the Gurista ships.
Well, maybe the Sansha-Scientists (who are said to have relations to the Jove anyways) have figured out that there ships are **** because of the lacking mobility and decided to make a complete overhaul and emphasize on stronger propulsion mods now?
Just because you need the skills to fly that ship doesn't mean it has to be a mix of those two. Also, please note how in the last patches Amarr have gotten some highly mobile ships themselves, just have a look at the omen. |
Lugalzagezi666
219
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 15:36:00 -
[895] - Quote
Shpenat wrote: Slower? The Cruor is on par with gallente frigates. It its base speed is higher than most amarr and caldari frigates. So how is it slower?
Generally I think the web range bonus is extremely powerful. Especially in catching ships at gates. I can axpect a lot of loki and rapiers being exchanged for this little bugger.
Why slower? Because once counterwebbed and counterscrammed oponent will be completely dictating range and able to comfortably keep himself out of pitiful range of small neuts.
Web range bonus is powerful, but if you expect 100k+ ehp lokis or covert rapiers that can fit multiple webs being exchanged for 100m isk frig that can fit at most one web and has pathetic ehp, then just Not to mention that on any non reg gate skirmish boosted 90% webs so much better its not even contest.
|
Batelle
HOMELE55
1960
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 15:43:00 -
[896] - Quote
Serpentis keeps webs
Bloods get old nos This could be scary. Could be OP as **** on the bhaalgorn, with just permatanking forever capacitor forever neuting of everybody. But really cool nontheless. Oh god them X-type large nos have been useless for so long.. but now... there's probably a huge oversupply of them. 8x x-type nos bhaalgorns everywhere...
Guristas: I'm really excited about these changes. They stand to bump up the dps potential of the ships, and not only preserve but further emphasize them as missile/drone hybrids. Love it. People talking about using the worm's drones for maintenance bots are lunatics and provide a perfect example of how terrible the ship is right now. Glad you didn't listen to the people talking about ECM guristas, that's dumb. The missile bonus to both kinetic and thermal is pretty great. Versatile without being too versatile. Getting 8 effective drones while only using 2 drones is also pretty great IMO. I don't care about the usage with drone assist, I'm excited for other reasons. It provides both a strength and a weakness to the ship.
I really hope the exact same bonuses are pasted onto the gila and rattlesnake without any modifications to slot layout and only minor stat tweaks. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Abishai
128
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:03:00 -
[897] - Quote
Missiles have their share of problems but one of the benefits has always been damage type selection; yet we continue to see this weapon platform limited to a Kinetic, and now Kinetic/Thermal, damage type on many ships.
I thought CCP was moving away from the old type specific damage bonus of missiles with the change to a RoF bonus.
What is the idea behind keeping this type specifc bonus and not following through with the previous direction change for the weapons platform?
|
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:08:00 -
[898] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Itago Gemulus wrote:Ill say it again, 90% are to strong, and 20% web range is to weak.
When comparing these, 90% web = 4-5x 60% webs. What other modules get these bonuses (even the new worm drone bonuses are not that strong)
20% web range make very little diffrence, make it 30% as recon ships get or stronger. Even at 50%/level i would likely take current web strenght if i could choose You realize your nonsense? What would help to have a web range larger than your lock range? This is not the ashimmu, its a FRIGATE! witht he proposed bonus it can already web over 30 km with links or faction web. 50% per level would mean like 50 km!!!! Cruor cannot even lock a target that far! Peopel need to stop ananlysign the ships on a spreadsheet!!! Think in combat how the bonuses would affect the combat!!!
Cruor with max boosts will have around 65km locking range with these changes, so easily above 50km. This bonus would also make it possible to use T2 instead of faction with about same range.
Loosing 90% web for dubble web range is not something i would choose to do, at the very least not on ships that already have be in normal web range to do anything as frigates are not realy known to fight at 17.5km+ where a T2 web with OGB will reach you. |
Shpenat
Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation The Obsidian Front
65
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:13:00 -
[899] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Shpenat wrote: Slower? The Cruor is on par with gallente frigates. It its base speed is higher than most amarr and caldari frigates. So how is it slower?
Generally I think the web range bonus is extremely powerful. Especially in catching ships at gates. I can axpect a lot of loki and rapiers being exchanged for this little bugger.
Why slower? Because once counterwebbed and counterscrammed oponent will be completely dictating range and able to comfortably keep himself out of pitiful range of small neuts. Web range bonus is powerful, but if you expect 100k+ ehp lokis or covert rapiers that can fit multiple webs being exchanged for 100m isk frig that can fit at most one web and has pathetic ehp, then just Not to mention that on any non reg gate skirmish boosted 90% webs so much better its not even contest.
I still dont get it.
Max velocity / mass Tristan: 325 / 956,000 Cruor: 330 / 1,003,000 Tormentor: 335 / 1,080,000
All of these ships are going to use same armor tank. So how is cruor any slowe than those? Sure it is not fastest frigate. It s on the lower end of spectrum. But I still dont see an issue.
Well the lock time may play the role as well as price. But I might be wrong as I did never gate camp myself. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1315
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:22:00 -
[900] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all? I'm talking about solo and bonus webs do help your fleet. Do you think the Cruor needs to use its neuts on every ship it sees to be effective?
To be better than Hyena YES. Otherwise use the hyena that is faster, locks faster, has MORE web range.... and is cheaper! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|
Batelle
HOMELE55
1962
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:23:00 -
[901] - Quote
I think its a bit over-simplistic to say that a 90% web is twice as strong as an 80% web. Just as an illustrative example, when doing incursions in my vindi, I learned that a 80% web and a 90% web are pretty much exactly the same while the target is slowing down. Its many many seconds before the 90% web starts actually showing its strength, and the target was often long dead before that.
It should be obvious to anyone that a long range web and a strong web are different and one is not superior to the other in all situations. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Lugalzagezi666
219
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:41:00 -
[902] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:[quote=Lugalzagezi666]I still dont get it.
Max velocity / mass Tristan: 325 / 956,000 Cruor: 330 / 1,003,000 Tormentor: 335 / 1,080,000
All of these ships are going to use same armor tank. So how is cruor any slowe than those? Sure it is not fastest frigate. It s on the lower end of spectrum. But I still dont see an issue.
Well the lock time may play the role as well as price. But I might be wrong as I did never gate camp myself.
It is not about base speed of hull, it is about actual speed in fight. Simply said: cruor cant use its neuts when kiting, because it is out of range, cruor cant use its neut bonus when webbed and scrammed, because it does not dictate range anymore. So yeah, here go, useless bonus on pirate ship accompanied by two useless highslots on a hull, that doesnt really have optimal layout.
Also why are you even comparing t1 frigs to pirate frig that will most likely cost 100x more? It would look that great compared to daredevil with even stronger web bonus and 385m/s base speed + 820000kg mass, right?
|
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:44:00 -
[903] - Quote
Batelle wrote:I think its a bit over-simplistic to say that a 90% web is twice as strong as an 80% web. Just as an illustrative example, when doing incursions in my vindi, I learned that a 80% web and a 90% web are pretty much exactly the same while the target is slowing down. Its many many seconds before the 90% web starts actually showing its strength, and the target was often long dead before that.
It should be obvious to anyone that a long range web and a strong web are different and one is not superior to the other in all situations.
So what your saying is that nerfing from 90% to 80% web sternght would have barely no effect. In that case do it already! |
Batelle
HOMELE55
1962
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:53:00 -
[904] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote: So what your saying is that nerfing from 90% to 80% web sternght would have barely no effect. In that case do it already!
Oh hell no. If bloods are going to get old-timey nos, serpentis are sure as hell keeping their old-timey webs. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Paul Tsukaya
Tsukaya Light Industries
72
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:21:00 -
[905] - Quote
I don't see people using the Curor getting more use after these changes.
The web range bonus doesn't synergize with the short range of neut/nos and you can't project with scorch out that far because you have no weapons range bonus.
The PG was nerfed by 14%!!! |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2814
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:32:00 -
[906] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all? I'm talking about solo and bonus webs do help your fleet. Do you think the Cruor needs to use its neuts on every ship it sees to be effective? To be better than Hyena YES. Otherwise use the hyena that is faster, locks faster, has MORE web range.... and is cheaper! It only has to neut some stuff, not everything.
Oh god. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
555
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:42:00 -
[907] - Quote
rise you promised |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:48:00 -
[908] - Quote
Does anyone else think the afterburner bonus would be much better suited on the Blood Raider ships? Switch the web bonus completely with an afterburner bonus, keep the nos stats. Ship is perfect.
Then give the Sansha an ECM drone bonus and enough bandwidth to utilise 4 drones as I proposed earlier, or if not then give it some type of shield bonus. Something with regards to shifting resistances built into the hull would be pretty nice as someone else suggested earlier. |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:54:00 -
[909] - Quote
holy jesus will people PLEASE lay off trying to give these things freaking EWAR BONUSES??? They're COMBAT ships, for God's sake! Webs work fine with serpentis because they are strictly in relation to how they perform direct combat, and something silly like tracking disruption or ecm makes no sense on these boats when you have such strong, cheap ewar available elsewhere. Give sansha a range bonus instead of AB, and give some sig-reducing or speed-increasing bonus and you'll be fine.
Also, drop the web bonuses to the blood raider boats and have them focus on neuts. Cruor and ashimmu with extended nos range would be perfect; ashimmu has 4 mids so it can fit double web. Problems solved. |
Lugalzagezi666
219
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:58:00 -
[910] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Does anyone else think the afterburner bonus would be much better suited on the Blood Raider ships? Switch the web bonus completely with an afterburner bonus, keep the nos stats. Ship is perfect.
Then give the Sansha an ECM drone bonus and enough bandwidth to utilise 4 drones as I proposed earlier, or if not then give it some type of shield bonus. Something with regards to shifting resistances built into the hull would be pretty nice as someone else suggested earlier.
I think afterburner bonus would be good on ANY frig, mediocre to bad on any cruiser and worthless on any pirate battleship.
I also think the bonus to ecm drones and every other ecm bonus on pirate hull is useless and not desirable. Generally ecm mechanics is bad and it would be much better if it wasnt in game at all.
Riot Girl wrote: It only has to neut some stuff, not everything.
Well, bad for cruor then, because its not going to neut anything, except pilots that dont read ship descriptions and complete tools that dont understand range control mechanics. But its really bad for you if you need pirate hull to kill such opponents.
|
|
Vesan Terakol
Sad Face Enterprises
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 18:02:00 -
[911] - Quote
I really like how unique the new pirate frigate bonuses are, they make the pirate ships stand out of the crowd with something of their own, instead of being the slightly stronger version of something else.
yet, this afterburner bonus doesn't quite sound Sansha to me - it belongs to the Angels ships, which are rather plain right now. Sansha should get something more in tone with incursions, yet i don't know what that should be - a unique way of tacking or disruption maybe?
Their point spreads to nearby ships, allowing to tackle multiple targets at once? Or something crazy like that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4259327 - more suff in the Zero.Zero collection |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 18:41:00 -
[912] - Quote
Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
555
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 18:45:00 -
[913] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF.
rail DD, try rail incursus lol |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 18:49:00 -
[914] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF. rail DD, try rail incursus lol
... Not sure what you're trying to say, but it's either:
- you think a Rail Incursus will eat the new Cruor or - you think a Rail DD is bad. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
555
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 18:50:00 -
[915] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Cruor is going to be a powerful ship with a huge range of forgiveness when you fck it up. You just need to figure out the medslots, that's it. A Rail DD might hurt it, a Succubus will be a good fight, and everything else will need links to dictate range and/or disengage. Or has to be an EAF. rail DD, try rail incursus lol ... Not sure what you're trying to say, but it's either: - you think a Rail Incursus will eat the new Cruor or - you think a Rail DD is bad.
the first one |
LaserzPewPew
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
30
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 19:39:00 -
[916] - Quote
As a pilot with over 1000 solo kills with a gila and a pilot who has switched to the ishtar due to better bonuses, faster speed, cap stability, and better resists, i can safely say the new bonus mechanic will be problematic in a pvp setting.
For the sake of easy math assume you have a set of 5 drines that do 100 dps. Currently, a gila has a 50% bonus to all drone damage and translates simply to 150 dps.
Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss. In addition, the ishtar carries a tracking, optimal range bonus, and a heavy drone velocity bonus that is rarely utilized in pvp.
Revamping and reimagining shiptypes is great. Understanding drone boat doctines cause server lag and the desire to do something about it is great. Two drones out per ship can and will save a metric fukton of server load, but the ship needs to be viable.
Which brings me to a desire to find a role suitable, viable, and relays the desired outcome. Heavy drones cannot be used in pvp at present. They are too slow and the drone ai turns off the mwd when it actually gets in range, only to fall back out of range over and over. Meanwhile, sentry drones have a dps output that is only marginally lower than heavies and do not have to chase a target down to do damage, only to fall back due to a faulty AI.
The gila could find a niche in drone speed bonuses. Not mwd speed, a raw speed bonus for all drones of at least 50%. Add that with a hefty drone optimal range bonus to compensate the AI being mentally challenged and you'd be a big step in the right direction. Balance the damage outputs, speeds, ehp, and cap stability between droneboats and you could find two distinct flavors of doctrines and pvp viability.
And we all love new and diversified flavors. Or shooting people.
Shooting people makes you a better person. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
1965
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 19:43:00 -
[917] - Quote
LaserzPewPew wrote:Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss. In addition, the ishtar carries a tracking, optimal range bonus, and a heavy drone velocity bonus that is rarely utilized in pvp.
2 drones with a 300% bonus is a 4x multiplier for 8 effective drones over the previous 7.5. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 19:44:00 -
[918] - Quote
LaserzPewPew wrote:
Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss.
Lets take this one more time...
300% bonus = base + 300% of base, or a total of 4x base
This would make 2 drones with 40 dps do 160dps, or 10dps MORE than before.
300% bonus for 2 drones is STRONGER than 50% bonus on 5 drones |
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 19:50:00 -
[919] - Quote
LaserzPewPew wrote:
For the sake of easy math assume you have a set of 5 drines that do 100 dps. Currently, a gila has a 50% bonus to all drone damage and translates simply to 150 dps.
Post change, two drones will put out a base dps of 40. Multiplied by 300%, this translates to 120, a net loss. In addition, the ishtar carries a tracking, optimal range bonus, and a heavy drone velocity bonus that is rarely utilized in pvp.
Problem 1 - Your maths is wrong. It's 40dps PLUS 300% bonus on top, for a total of 160dps
Problem 2 - Even if your maths was right, you're still wrong because these changes are for the worm, not the gila. The devs have already said that the bonuses throughout the line of ships aren't going to be identical. They are going to actually consider what works for the gila, rather than just slap the worm bonuses onto it and hope for the best.
Seriously, why is everybody in this thread going "hurr, you announced some changers for the frigates, so I will assume the exact bonuses will apply to the cruiser and BS" ? At least wait and see what the actual changes are before you start crying about them for goodness sake... |
LaserzPewPew
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
30
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 19:57:00 -
[920] - Quote
Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships. |
|
Batelle
HOMELE55
1969
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:08:00 -
[921] - Quote
LaserzPewPew wrote:Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships.
Yes, and we would like to hear your opinions, which are especially valuable given your experience. But misinterpreting that basic fact colors the rest of your post and probably your impression of the changes. Everyone jumped on your case just because many other persons have made the same misinterpretation. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:10:00 -
[922] - Quote
If they keep the relative bonus up the ship lines, the bonus for Gila and Rattlesnake should be 500% on 2 drones.
Current Worm: 5 Effective Future Worm: 8 Effective (160% of Current)
Current Gila: 7.5 Effective Future Gila: 12 Effective (160% of Current)
This assumes that they choose not to toss the extra damage into the launchers or something. I won't say the proposed changes to the Worm have no bearing on the rest of the shipline, but assuming that they are going to keep the same bonus from level to level despite it being a pretty poor bonus as it moves up the levels is fairly silly.
Honestly, though I hate to see it happen, I would imagine that as they move up the bonus will be restricted to size. The thought of a Gila or Rattlesnake putting out the equivalent of 30 light drones with each drone having the HP of a light tanked cruiser seems...hurtful. This is definitely a case of wait and see. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:12:00 -
[923] - Quote
LaserzPewPew wrote:Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships. Regarding the heavy base speed bonus, personally that feels like a bad idea simply due to the fact that near term it only bandages the issues with heavies for one line, which is a terrible solution, and long term, should drone behaviors be fixed, marginalizes the bonus into obsolescence. |
LaserzPewPew
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
30
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:15:00 -
[924] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If they keep the relative bonus up the ship lines, the bonus for Gila and Rattlesnake should be 500% on 2 drones.
Current Worm: 5 Effective Future Worm: 8 Effective (160% of Current)
Current Gila: 7.5 Effective Future Gila: 12 Effective (160% of Current)
This assumes that they choose not to toss the extra damage into the launchers or something. I won't say the proposed changes to the Worm have no bearing on the rest of the shipline, but assuming that they are going to keep the same bonus from level to level despite it being a pretty poor bonus as it moves up the levels is fairly silly.
Honestly, though I hate to see it happen, I would imagine that as they move up the bonus will be restricted to size. The thought of a Gila or Rattlesnake putting out the equivalent of 30 light drones with each drone having the HP of a light tanked cruiser seems...hurtful. This is definitely a case of wait and see.
I imagine that in the 300% role bonus, the ship itself would be restricted to two drones at a time. Otherwise, a set of hammerheads would have a dps output breaking 1200 dps with 3 dda's. |
Shpenat
Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation The Obsidian Front
65
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:21:00 -
[925] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
It is not about base speed of hull, it is about actual speed in fight. Simply said: cruor cant use its neuts when kiting, because it is out of range, cruor cant use its neut bonus when webbed and scrammed, because it does not dictate range anymore. So yeah, here go, useless bonus on pirate ship accompanied by two useless highslots on a hull, that doesnt really have optimal layout.
Also why are you even comparing t1 frigs to pirate frig that will most likely cost 100x more? It would look that great compared to daredevil with even stronger web bonus and 385m/s base speed + 820000kg mass, right?
My original statement was to the claim that cruor is slower than any other frigate. I showed that it is not true.
As mentioned earlier comparing cruor speed to othr pirate factions is bit odd as 2 other are racialy about speed, one is about the range control and the last is using capacitor free weapons.
I am not saying that cruor is somehow extra strong compared to other pirate faction frigates. I think it should get neut bonus as well to be able to neut within scram range. But that has nothing to do with his real speed. |
LaserzPewPew
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
30
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:27:00 -
[926] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:LaserzPewPew wrote:Deeeerp. My mistake on the multiplier. Maff is hard! The original post talks of direction of the entire gurista line. I intended to address the direction of the line of ships. Regarding the heavy base speed bonus, personally that feels like a bad idea simply due to the fact that near term it only bandages the issues with heavies for one line, which is a terrible solution, and long term, should drone behaviors be fixed, marginalizes the bonus into obsolescence.
Fixing eve code is going to take an abundant amount of time and is a long way away. Granted, it would be amazing to have a drone check it's base velocity against the target's current before shutting it's mwd off. |
RAVENSOME
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:32:00 -
[927] - Quote
I will speak just about the *possible* future change to the rattlesnake as I used to fly it together with domi navy for more than a year. You write that the guristas ships seem "overshadowed" but in fact there are some differences which make the rattle far better than the domi navy (speaking about PVE).
1- Better tank and better overall DPS (shield tanking allows you to use low slot for damage) 2- Better damage type (you can fit torpedo and drones having the option to switch damage type depending on the faction you combat.
If you change the the bonuses as you plan to do with the worm, the rattle will have a limitation on missile range and missile damage type compared with a possible slightly better drone damage.
Now, the point is not if you nerf it or not, the point is that any pirate ship should be an overall better ship compared to the navy issues as it requires more skills.
Personally I think it is not a great idea what you are planning for Guristas ships and I hope you will consider the fact that actually there are minor but important factors which make the rattle much more efficient than a Domi navy.
Again, I speak by experience, after two years flying a Domi, I can say that the rattlesnake is absolutely perfect as it is and it is absolutely not overshadowed by the domi.
Tks |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1315
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:33:00 -
[928] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all? I'm talking about solo and bonus webs do help your fleet. Do you think the Cruor needs to use its neuts on every ship it sees to be effective? To be better than Hyena YES. Otherwise use the hyena that is faster, locks faster, has MORE web range.... and is cheaper! It only has to neut some stuff, not everything.
If webbign is your main focus, you are better with a hyena. The ship has a Main focus, on the c ruor case is neuting (if hyena did not exist then yes, could be webbing) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
40
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:39:00 -
[929] - Quote
The fact that CCP gave a frigate an AB speed bonus means that they are officially out of ideas.
Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships
55 page discussion which, among other things, highlights the reasons on why an AB speed bonus is a bad idea.
And the problem is not the Succubus in itself, but the fact that this, once again, sets a CCP precedent. Just like the useless AF MWD bonus that eventually became, an even more useless, HAC bonus, this AB bonus will be used as a new "crutch" in future for frigate balancing. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:56:00 -
[930] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I am slightly confused as to why someone would hate the bonus given to the Worm based on what might be done to the Rattlesnake, at least with that much vehemence.
The Worm currently puts out 5 effective drones. The change gets it 8 by putting out 2 drones, each with as much or more HP than the hull itself.
Rise already stated its not limited to a 300% bonus, and if that trend is carried foward the Rattlesnake may see 2 drones worth 6 effective drones, each with the HP of the hull, plus bonused launchers.
So what is wrong with the Worm? Give the worm the regular 10% to damage and you get an effective 7.5 drones any way. The fixed 300% for an effective 8 drones is not that impressive. Especially when you factor in the other Gallente bonuses that allow drones to apply damage sooner (velocity) and land more wrecking shots (tracking). The drones being super tanky is not impressive when drones are pretty much disposable and are more often abandoned than destroyed. I am sure the idea is to trial a ship bonus that reduces drone numbers. So events like HED-GP Do not happen in the future. Reducing drones has to be part of the game moving forward because they have once again become the largest strain on the server during fleet flights (thanks CFC.) There is nothing wrong with giving this ship a massive drone bonus and reducing the number of drones it can field. Unless someone wants to willingly cause server lag to force CCP to make a kneejerk change to a decade old system that was never an issue before.
CCP could solve the drone lag issue the same way turret lag is dealt with; by grouping the drones.
This is something we tested using the old Drakefleet when TiDi was introduced. Firing the missiles ungrouped caused far more lag than grouped missiles because the server had to calculate 7 missiles hits instead of 1.
Drones can be grouped for management purposes in the drone window, but the server still calculates them individually. Using ship balance to fix some back end server code issue is not something we should be encouraging CCP to do. In the long run, it will mean all the ships get dumbed down by the balancing team rather than fixing the underlying issues in the server. We'll end up with ships that all have 1 gun, 1 defense mod, and only fly in straight lines because 'fix lag'.
|
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 20:59:00 -
[931] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: CCP could solve the drone lag issue the same way turret lag is dealt with; by grouping the drones.
This is something we tested using the old Drakefleet when TiDi was introduced. Firing the missiles ungrouped caused far more lag than grouped missiles because the server had to calculate 7 missiles hits instead of 1.
Drones can be grouped for management purposes in the drone window, but the server still calculates them individually. Using ship balance to fix some back end server code issue is not something we should be encouraging CCP to do. In the long run, it will mean all the ships get dumbed down by the balancing team rather than fixing the underlying issues in the server. We'll end up with ships that all have 1 gun, 1 defense mod, and only fly in straight lines because 'fix lag'.
As I understand missile grouping works differently than turret grouping. Also even without lag being a factor the drone idea it still novel and has advantages. |
Kogh Ayon
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 21:15:00 -
[932] - Quote
I don't very much hate the idea that all turrets should be forcefully grouped(when they are the same turrets of course), and grouping 5-10 drones into 2-4 might not be a bad idea as well, and it's very likely to reduce the server lag significantly, assuming that the drone consumes similar amount of resource as a ship, for some aspects.
However, the lag issue, though affects a large amount of players at some points of time, is not significant to most of the players for the most of the time. Making changes that will significantly affect game play for all the times to fix a very occasional issue just sounds crazy.
I don't know how things can work, if it's possible to forcefully group drones/turrets when the tidi is triggered? That will be an ideal solution. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 21:19:00 -
[933] - Quote
Kogh Ayon wrote:I don't very much hate the idea that all turrets should be forcefully grouped(when they are the same turrets of course), and grouping 5-10 drones into 2-4 might not be a bad idea as well, and it's very likely to reduce the server lag significantly, assuming that the drone consumes similar amount of resource as a ship, for some aspects.
However, the lag issue, though affects a large amount of players at some points of time, is not significant to most of the players for the most of the time. Making changes that will significantly affect game play for all the times to fix a very occasional issue just sounds crazy.
I don't know how things can work, if it's possible to forcefully group drones/turrets when the tidi is triggered? That will be an ideal solution. Considering we are dealing with pirate ships, which aren't terribly likely to be fielded in the numbers present in large fleets, I'm not entirely convinced this is just a lag fix, but rather an idea to provide some unique functionality. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 21:26:00 -
[934] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Shepard Wong Ogeko] Also even without lag being a factor the drone idea it still novel and has advantages.
I want ships that are useful.
We had ships that were 'novel' with split weapons and other weird bonuses. You can't deny that it made the ships different. CCP was doing a good job of moving away from 'novel' and more towards 'useful'.
Novel is a dumb metric to aim for. Anyone can make a ship novel by giving it crazy stats. That doesn't mean it will be useful or balanced. With the current stats, a Worm might be novel, but a Harpy will be better and cheaper. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 21:35:00 -
[935] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Shepard Wong Ogeko] Also even without lag being a factor the drone idea it still novel and has advantages. I want ships that are useful. We had ships that were 'novel' with split weapons and other weird bonuses. You can't deny that it made the ships different. CCP was doing a good job of moving away from 'novel' and more towards 'useful'. Novel is a dumb metric to aim for. Anyone can make a ship novel by giving it crazy stats. That doesn't mean it will be useful or balanced. With the current stats, a Worm might be novel, but a Harpy will be better and cheaper. And that's a valid critique if it stops at novel, but it didn't. The problem seems to be treating novel and useful as mutually exclusive terms. Honestly the worm was buffed very strongly. If after a 60% drone damage increase and a potential 50% missile damage increase you can't beat a Harpy with it, that means the tristan/astero/current worm/iskur and likely even algos/dragoon are probably dead right along beside it and small drone platforms need to be abandoned since the new worm will be the strongest light drone platform of the bunch. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
684
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 22:02:00 -
[936] - Quote
Meandering Milieu wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mr Fabulous actually has good point (if poorly communicated). The navy dominix is a pure DPS play using drones and guns. Its damage output is over 1000dps before any implants or damage mods, and yet it sells for only 500 million or so - not far from the current rattlesnake's price.
Gotta dispute this just a tad, as a navy domi pilot. My skills aren't perfect, but looking in EFT, with all lvl V skills, A domi with a full rack of 425mm rails, javelin ammo, and garde IIs, pulls around 800dps. 795 with cal navy AM, 810 with dread guristas AM. The only way you can get 1000dps out of the stock navy domi without dmg mods and implants, is to fit neutron blasters and void. Cal Navy and Dread Guristas AM still fall short of the 1000dps mark. The tracking comps needed to make this viable for most pve force you into armor tanking it, which kills your tank compared to shields, and straps the powergrid to near breaking point. This makes it impossible to really fit an AB. Further, even with 3 tracking comps you need to use null ammo, which brings you below that 1k base dps you were talking about. Basically the only time I can see a 1000 base dps navy domi ever existing is as a buffer tanked bait ship, because otherwise there is no scenario for it that makes sense. The 1200-1400 dps navy domi I've seen most people use, for missioning/pve, requires almost all lows go to damage mods, a shield tank, and therefor fewer omnis or tracking comps, which force your hand into different ammos/drones for anything outside of 50km (even with two fed navy tracking links from my old domi, my gardes miss at 50km often. After the omni changes I switched back to T2) . This brings your dps lower again despite your efforts. On paper at least, I pull roughly 1250dps at 45km. After that I have to switch ammo, bringing me to about 1050dps, even with a full rack of damage mods. Even with all skills at lvl V, the changing ammo required for distance has a similar decline. This all said I have nothing against the rattlesnake, and think it needs love. I just dislike the idea of people considering the domi, navy or otherwise, to be an insanely powerful wtfbbqpwn ship out of stock, with no enhancement mods or sacrifices necessary to pull good dps. The truth is for good dps and tank you have to sacrifice utility ( midslots) and for good utility you have to sacrifice dps and tank (lowslots, shield to armor. ) This is actually kind of balanced. Sorry for ranting. >.>
It never occurred to me for a moment to use a navy domi for pve.
Neutrons and ogres seem appropriate to me for pvp brawler.
When balancing these ships I assume that CCP don't consider pve use at all. They are warships. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Anika Ataru
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 22:08:00 -
[937] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If they keep the relative bonus up the ship lines, the bonus for Gila and Rattlesnake should be 500% on 2 drones.
Current Worm: 5 Effective Future Worm: 8 Effective (160% of Current)
Current Gila: 7.5 Effective Future Gila: 12 Effective (160% of Current)
This assumes that they choose not to toss the extra damage into the launchers or something. I won't say the proposed changes to the Worm have no bearing on the rest of the shipline, but assuming that they are going to keep the same bonus from level to level despite it being a pretty poor bonus as it moves up the levels is fairly silly.
Honestly, though I hate to see it happen, I would imagine that as they move up the bonus will be restricted to size. The thought of a Gila or Rattlesnake putting out the equivalent of 30 light drones with each drone having the HP of a light tanked cruiser seems...hurtful. This is definitely a case of wait and see. Are you serious? Current Worm is not bonused drone boat, Gila is. Suggesting it should get same % increase in effective drones is just silly. It "should" get same 8 effective drones at best. 7,5 is standard for bonused drone boats bar the frigs, 12 would be ridiculously OP.
(Personally, I don't like the idea about Guristas having best drone boats in general tbh, as they are still Caldari, but I guess CCP already abandoned concept of Gallente being "drone masters" with shifting Amarr towards them, so I must live with that.) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 22:11:00 -
[938] - Quote
Anika Ataru wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:If they keep the relative bonus up the ship lines, the bonus for Gila and Rattlesnake should be 500% on 2 drones.
Current Worm: 5 Effective Future Worm: 8 Effective (160% of Current)
Current Gila: 7.5 Effective Future Gila: 12 Effective (160% of Current)
This assumes that they choose not to toss the extra damage into the launchers or something. I won't say the proposed changes to the Worm have no bearing on the rest of the shipline, but assuming that they are going to keep the same bonus from level to level despite it being a pretty poor bonus as it moves up the levels is fairly silly.
Honestly, though I hate to see it happen, I would imagine that as they move up the bonus will be restricted to size. The thought of a Gila or Rattlesnake putting out the equivalent of 30 light drones with each drone having the HP of a light tanked cruiser seems...hurtful. This is definitely a case of wait and see. Are you serious? Current Worm is not bonused drone boat, Gila is. Suggesting it should get same % increase in effective drones is just silly. It "should" get same 8 effective drones at best. 7,5 is standard for bonused drone boats bar the frigs, 12 would be ridiculously OP. (Personally, I don't like the idea about Guristas having best drone boats in general tbh, as they are still Caldari, but I guess CCP already abandoned concept of Gallente being "drone masters" with shifting Amarr towards them, so I must live with that.) Why would it get 8 at best? That makes no sense considering a class with no bonuses sees the worm getting a proposed 60% buff. By your logic even a typical 10%/lvl bonus is too much for the worm. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 22:24:00 -
[939] - Quote
Figuring out if the Cruors mis-matched bonuses can work together or not is really the only major issue I see with the proposed changes. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
1977
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 22:26:00 -
[940] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Why would it get 8 at best? That makes no sense considering a class with no bonuses sees the worm getting a proposed 60% buff. By your logic even a typical 10%/lvl bonus is too much for the worm.
Because the worm is awful and the gila and rattle are mostly ok. So the worm gets a comparatively bigger buff. There's nothing wrong with the worm being the only bonused frigate. All the other drone frigates have decent secondary weapon systems. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 22:34:00 -
[941] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Why would it get 8 at best? That makes no sense considering a class with no bonuses sees the worm getting a proposed 60% buff. By your logic even a typical 10%/lvl bonus is too much for the worm.
Because the worm is awful and the gila and rattle are mostly ok. So the worm gets a comparatively bigger buff. There's nothing wrong with the worm being the only bonused frigate. All the other drone frigates have decent secondary weapon systems. No, the RS and Gila are somewhat lackluster in their drone capabilities at the moment compared to Gallente offerings. Granted the combination of themes is unigue, but that doesn't seem to be a strong draw looking at RS prices vs other pirate BS's.
Additionally the secondary weapon of the worm just got a buff as well. I'm not sure how you would consider the astero's laser capabilities decent especially when in one of it's primary envisioned functions (cloaky prober) it can't even fit them. The tristans hybrid capabilities are lackluster as well. |
Blood Ruin
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 22:39:00 -
[942] - Quote
As someone who primarily flies frigates, I am extremely excited for the succubus changes. I feel like the AB changes will make it a competitive piece of the solo pvp meta. I also see vast possibilities for the cruor for fleet support and will be much more viable for solo. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 23:09:00 -
[943] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Novel is a dumb metric to aim for. Anyone can make a ship novel by giving it crazy stats. That doesn't mean it will be useful or balanced. With the current stats, a Worm might be novel, but a Harpy will be better and cheaper.
And that's a valid critique if it stops at novel, but it didn't. The problem seems to be treating novel and useful as mutually exclusive terms. Honestly the worm was buffed very strongly. If after a 60% drone damage increase and a potential 50% missile damage increase you can't beat a Harpy with it, that means the tristan/astero/current worm/iskur and likely even algos/dragoon are probably dead right along beside it and small drone platforms need to be abandoned since the new worm will be the strongest light drone platform of the bunch.[/quote]
But they could just give the Worm the regular 10%/level damage bonus with 5 drones and get pretty close to this oddball flat 300% with 2 drones. And even with the flat bonus, it still doesn't have the range/tracking/velocity bonuses that make the current Gallente drone boats so good.
It is novel for the sake of being novel, and ignores that supporting bonuses that make the Gallente drone boats outshine the Guristas ships by such a noticeable margin. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 23:15:00 -
[944] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: Novel is a dumb metric to aim for. Anyone can make a ship novel by giving it crazy stats. That doesn't mean it will be useful or balanced. With the current stats, a Worm might be novel, but a Harpy will be better and cheaper.
And that's a valid critique if it stops at novel, but it didn't. The problem seems to be treating novel and useful as mutually exclusive terms. Honestly the worm was buffed very strongly. If after a 60% drone damage increase and a potential 50% missile damage increase you can't beat a Harpy with it, that means the tristan/astero/current worm/iskur and likely even algos/dragoon are probably dead right along beside it and small drone platforms need to be abandoned since the new worm will be the strongest light drone platform of the bunch. But they could just give the Worm the regular 10%/level damage bonus with 5 drones and get pretty close to this oddball flat 300% with 2 drones. And even with the flat bonus, it still doesn't have the range/tracking/velocity bonuses that make the current Gallente drone boats so good. It is novel for the sake of being novel, and ignores that supporting bonuses that make the Gallente drone boats outshine the Guristas ships by such a noticeable margin. The draw for the worm is it's increased potential damage output with drones which is 60% higher than it's competitors. The 8 effective drone number won't work for it's larger brethren, but a damage bonus of considerable level gives some point for the series separate from just making shield ishtars and domis.
Let me seriously just ask, do you really think the cure all for the Guristas line is just to be a more expensive Gallente line? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 00:12:00 -
[945] - Quote
12 effective sentry/heavy drones might be OP for the Gila, but not the Rattlesnake.
Pirate Battleships get somewhere around 15 effective turrets. Each sentry is roughly the equivalent to a turret, and if you have 12 drones you still need at least the 4 launchers. If it's forced to use heavies instead it should get a little extra just for forcing us to watch paint dry between targets. |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
367
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 00:12:00 -
[946] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Figuring out if the Cruors mis-matched bonuses can work together or not is really the only major issue I see with the proposed changes.
How are they mismatched? It's a web range and neut/old NOS amount bonus. I see that as working to snag something from an extended web range to be able to get in close and shut them down with cap warfare.
How do you see them? DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
406
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 00:14:00 -
[947] - Quote
Markku Laaksonen wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Figuring out if the Cruors mis-matched bonuses can work together or not is really the only major issue I see with the proposed changes. How are they mismatched? It's a web range and neut/old NOS amount bonus. I see that as working to snag something from an extended web range to be able to get in close and shut them down with cap warfare. How do you see them?
The range on NOS is too small. You web, close in, get webbed, never get close enough to NOS, and eventually die. |
Ayma Mess
HELLSINKER Unsuitable
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 00:43:00 -
[948] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
I am dreadfully bored so I'm gonna give you my thoughts.
I am against superdrones. It'll turn what is otherwise one hull into a minifleet and encourage drone micromanagement shenanigans over other more appealing bits of pvp. I like drones for their versatility and fragility. It's ok that they are fragile because unless you're in a frigate shooting at mediums or higher, tracking is gonna suck unless you peel tackle off target to handle drones. Or you can smartbomb, which these drones will be pretty resistant to.
If rattlesnakes got super-sentries to match the worm, fielding a lot of them or any gurista ship would essentially invalidate the 50 drone assist hardcap, at least in some ways?
don't super tough drones effectively eliminate or severely reduce a need to micromanage drones that get the npc aggro that was so deliberately added for them?
If we get rid of this super drone idea, the worm could be more interesting then this! Its caldari tech engineered to be used against caldari right? What if you gave the worm the role of countering ECM boats by making them immune to Jams(or maybe all ewar?). The ECM ship cant jam its way out of being tackled, and the worm is fairly tanky, with good damage projection due to drones and missiles. Maybe you increase the drone range and speed so they can apply pressure to far off jammers ? it suits the gallente flavor. Either way, having a worm or two in a small fleet could prevent a similar sized force with a pocket falcon alt from totally crushing you before you manage to force the falcon off field or blow it up.
Maybe you could do something similar with the gila and the Rattlesnake, making them immune, and then giving them bonuses to ECCM projection or something, so you're forced to deal with them if you want your jams to be effective.
anyway, it'd probably make them insanely popular or possibly OP, but it'd be a nice way to keep jams from being the be-all and end-all of ewar. (ps 20 seconds is too long)
maybe rather than making them just plain immune and able to project eccm, make it a large bonus to self eccm too? so they have to work a bit to be jam nearly immune, and there is still a chance of being jammed.
ok im done, resume business as usual. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 01:07:00 -
[949] - Quote
Y'all gingers got no clue bout the Cruor. The bonuses work wonderful and will synergize into a ship that will dictate anything but a Daredevil*.
*Limitations may apply, such as Blaster-Daredevils s*cking donkeyballs and thus are easy prey. |
Meandering Milieu
FML LLC
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 01:10:00 -
[950] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: It never occurred to me for a moment to use a navy domi for pve.
Neutrons and ogres seem appropriate to me for pvp brawler.
When balancing these ships I assume that CCP don't consider pve use at all. They are warships.
Lol sorry, my rant must have come out of nowhere then.
The Vindi, Mach, RS, CNR, and Nightmare all see decent PVE usage. Dev even said that the nightmare sees a lot of use as a PVE platform and didn't want to mess that up.
Similarly though, for your amusement, as a PVEr, until I started checking out the forums more, I never guess people used these ships for PVP. Their stats, layouts, and bonuses often make them amazing for PVE, and they are so expensive that using them for anything other than bait (where you have enough reinforcements to ensure it will live. ) makes little sense to me. (maybe tournaments? )
Otherwise why someone would choose a navy domi as a brawler over a Thron, Hyperion, or Neut Domi, considering performance to cost, baffles me. Especially since so many pvpers seem obsessed with their killboards and keeping a positive balance. Losing a 500-1bn ship (depending on pirate/navy ship ) sounds like a painful loss for performance gained.
|
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Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 01:41:00 -
[951] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Y'all gingers got no clue bout the Cruor. The bonuses work wonderful and will synergize into a ship that will dictate anything but a Daredevil*.
*Limitations may apply, such as Blaster-Daredevils s*cking donkeyballs and thus are easy prey.
The issue is that you can't use both bonuses at the same time. As soon as you get into nuet/nos range you are in normal web range and once again slower than everything else. |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
216
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 04:04:00 -
[952] - Quote
Well if nightmare and other sansha ships get AB bonus they WILL need more cap.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
321
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 04:33:00 -
[953] - Quote
Meandering Milieu wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: It never occurred to me for a moment to use a navy domi for pve.
Neutrons and ogres seem appropriate to me for pvp brawler.
When balancing these ships I assume that CCP don't consider pve use at all. They are warships.
Lol sorry, my rant must have come out of nowhere then. The Vindi, Mach, RS, CNR, and Nightmare all see decent PVE usage. Dev even said that the nightmare sees a lot of use as a PVE platform and didn't want to mess that up. Similarly though, for your amusement, as a PVEr, until I started checking out the forums more, I never guess people used these ships for PVP. Their stats, layouts, and bonuses often make them amazing for PVE, and they are so expensive that using them for anything other than bait (where you have enough reinforcements to ensure it will live. ) makes little sense to me. (maybe tournaments? ) Otherwise why someone would choose a navy domi as a brawler over a Thron, Hyperion, or Neut Domi, considering performance to cost, baffles me. Especially since so many pvpers seem obsessed with their killboards and keeping a positive balance. Losing a 500-1bn ship (depending on pirate/navy ship ) sounds like a painful loss for performance gained.
You do see the navy Domi mission running occasionally.
One of the sad things about EVE for many people is its very "ghetto". With the exception of incursions its actually detrimental to fly a blinged up fancy ride. |
Onslaughtor
Carbon.
76
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 05:03:00 -
[954] - Quote
My full thoughts on the proposed Sansha changes.
CCP Rise wrote:Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
While I love the idea of the bonused afterburner, it does not belong on a Sansha ship. The reasons why are that the weapon and tank type of the hull are not enhanced by the bonus in any meaningful way that another ship canGÇÖt do better. The fitting and slot lay-out is very constricting as you have balance tank, tackle, and cap. Finally it goes against the design of the ship and its faction.
Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships. Without proper support a Sansha ship should not be able to last on the battlefield .
My main proposal is to move the 2 utility highs to a mid and a low on each ship, change the 5% damage bonus to a 7.5% damage bonus, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships.
My alternative proposal is the move 1 utility high to a low and to add an extra turret, increase shield hit point amount, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships.
Ultimately the afterburner bonus would fit better on a hull line designed to handle it and take full advantage of it, MorduGÇÖs Legion would be an optimal choice for this as it fits their flavor more. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
408
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 05:12:00 -
[955] - Quote
Ayma Mess wrote:CCP Rise wrote: WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
I am dreadfully bored so I'm gonna give you my thoughts. I am against superdrones. It'll turn what is otherwise one hull into a minifleet and encourage drone micromanagement shenanigans over other more appealing bits of pvp. I like drones for their versatility and fragility. It's ok that they are fragile because unless you're in a frigate shooting at mediums or higher, tracking is gonna suck unless you peel tackle off target to handle drones. Or you can smartbomb, which these drones will be pretty resistant to. If rattlesnakes got super-sentries to match the worm, fielding a lot of them or any gurista ship would essentially invalidate the 50 drone assist hardcap, at least in some ways?
You seem confused. On the one hand you are against micromanagement shenanigans and feel the superdrone will cause more of it, and on the other you are against the reduction of micromanagement and feel superdrones will negate the need for it.
I am not sure what about their fragility you find appealing, unless you mean when your enemies field them. I am guessing you dont use them a lot yourself, as your main concern seems to be to insure you can hjt them easily.
The AI was changed for a number of reasons, not just to make drones unuseabld in PvE. It was a problem that all you ever had to do in a mission was warp one tank ship in first, and anyone else could go in pure gank. This needed fixing both for PvE fleets and for hunters of PvE ships... Everyone in space should have to fit their ship to handle the environment, not just the guy the pirates want to shoot at.
The problem with drone assist is one of the biggest boondoggles in EVE history. Supposedly its only really a problem on hulls with the new Gallente style tracking and range bonus, as drones from any other source are subpar. Until that new bonus was in play drone assist rocked on just fine for 10 years without any problems. Now that drone tracking mods are nerfed, and the Gurista ships are not slated to get the tracking bonus, the superdrone should be fine. Even if the null-blobbers do choose to use it, at least it will be less lag.
Consider that the best solution is still just to shoot the drone ship instead of the drone. Really nothing has changed in that regard. Even if you do decide to attack the drone, at least the option exists unlike every other weapon system in the game... Would you prefer to just remove drones as an in space weapon and instead just have everyone using turrets and missiles? |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
507
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 05:14:00 -
[956] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:My full thoughts on the proposed Sansha changes.
While I love the idea of the bonused afterburner, it does not belong on a Sansha ship. The reasons why are that the weapon and tank type of the hull are not enhanced by the bonus in any meaningful way that another ship canGÇÖt do better. The fitting and slot lay-out is very constricting as you have balance tank, tackle, and cap. Finally it goes against the design of the ship and its faction.
Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships. Without proper support a Sansha ship should not be able to last on the battlefield .
My main proposal is to move the 2 utility highs to a mid and a low on each ship, change the 5% damage bonus to a 7.5% damage bonus, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships.
My alternative proposal is the move 1 utility high to a low and to add an extra turret, increase shield hit point amount, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships.
Ultimately the afterburner bonus would fit better on a hull line designed to handle it and take full advantage of it, MorduGÇÖs Legion would be an optimal choice for this as it fits their flavor more.
I'll be the first one to say I don't know how to fly or fit ships well. I just kinda bumble my way about the universe and things (usually me) explode.
But that being said, I like this idea. Afterburner bonus doesn't feel thematically right for Nation. The whole hivemind Unity business gives the feeling that their ships are designed to work together as one massive fleet. Making them stronger while having them rely on other ships seems like a better direction then speed bonus. |
Naava Edios
404 File Not Found
14
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 05:26:00 -
[957] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:My full thoughts on the proposed Sansha changes. CCP Rise wrote:Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want. While I love the idea of the bonused afterburner, it does not belong on a Sansha ship. The reasons why are that the weapon and tank type of the hull are not enhanced by the bonus in any meaningful way that another ship canGÇÖt do better. The fitting and slot lay-out is very constricting as you have balance tank, tackle, and cap. Finally it goes against the design of the ship and its faction. Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships. Without proper support a Sansha ship should not be able to last on the battlefield . My main proposal is to move the 2 utility highs to a mid and a low on each ship, change the 5% damage bonus to a 7.5% damage bonus, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships. My alternative proposal is the move 1 utility high to a low and to add an extra turret, increase shield hit point amount, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships. Ultimately the afterburner bonus would fit better on a hull line designed to handle it and take full advantage of it, MorduGÇÖs Legion would be an optimal choice for this as it fits their flavor more.
^^ I'm with Onslaughtor, Lets get these ship changes right shall we? |
Caera Ashlocke
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 07:48:00 -
[958] - Quote
Okay so here is for my five cents. Firstly I am really excited about these proposed changes - well for insomuch as they relate to frigates. I am cautious and curious about the worm, but suspect it may make for an interesting change. As for the others, well, My only caveat is to make sure that the succubus has enough agility and optimal range to benefit from the ab boost, but yeah. I am ESPECIALLY relieved that the web bonuses to serpentis are not being nerfed.
Secondly what you don't go into much is the cruisers and battleships. I trust that I am jumping the gun - by a lot here - and that they will be addressed in future dev blogs. The Phanty needs much love. Much. The phanty is a brawler so much as with the succy agility is an issue. Sansha ships are fitted on what I'd like to call 'a razor's edge'. They are great but need so much cap fine-tuning that even slight changes make for a very difficult boat.
If you do at some stage look at giving the nightmare an ab bonus, please consider instead making it either an ab or mwd bonus. The reason for this is that the mare is a sniper platform. It is great in missions - slowboating with a gank tank, but if one had to drop a mid mod for an ab, it would sit with tanking issues. On the other hand the mare is nice in incursions, but for vg's you stand still (or move slow) and in hq's you need a mwd. |
Sinooko
Gespenster Kompanie
60
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 08:29:00 -
[959] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:What? so.. your idea of effectiveness is ensurign that you are not helping your fleet at all? I'm talking about solo and bonus webs do help your fleet. Do you think the Cruor needs to use its neuts on every ship it sees to be effective?
No, just like a griffon doesn't need to use ECM on every ship it sees to be effective. It can fit missiles after all! Long Live Eve Online! |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
336
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 11:20:00 -
[960] - Quote
One general comment.
Can we please avoid the tiresome cycle of buffing something to the point of being OP, waiting to everyone stockpiles and trains for the newly OP thing and then nerfing that thing to the point of uselessness :D |
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Nicolas Main-Guet
UnSkilleD Inc. Reverberation Project
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 11:20:00 -
[961] - Quote
Kel hound wrote:While the worm looks fun, how exactly is this going to translate to the Gila and Rattlesnake? If you make the Gila use 2 medium drones then can't it just launch 4 smalls? And what about the Rattlesnake? If you give her enough bandwidth for just 2 heavys what's to stop it from launching 5 mediums? Duno ... maybe just by giving a 300% bonus to medium to the Gila and 300% to heavy to the Rattlesnake... Seem pretty logic to me. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
591
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 11:33:00 -
[962] - Quote
Nicolas Main-Guet wrote:300% to heavy to the Rattlesnake...
You do that to a Rattle and you may as well delete it. |
Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory Infernal Octopus
104
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 11:35:00 -
[963] - Quote
Very funny.
I think this CCP Rise think he found something new for us and interesting when he found this idea in own mind to change ashimu and cruor web bonuses... But, I think, CCP invite new people on CCP Devs position every year, and most of them even doesn't know what kind of bonuses this ships had before... So, or CCP thinks we all here dumb and no one remember what kind of bonuses we had here before, or they want to create great new cheap patch, without doing anything useful and without any hard work, simply to modify again few database attributes on old ships and thats all. Cheap and always work.
Just to remind CCP Rise...this ships ALREADY had this bonuses 7 years AGO !!! And after 7 years we will start to play "oh, new game, new bonuses"...game... And after 3 years or 4 CCP will change back web bonuses on web effectiveness and after back again on range on same ships...like for idiots...
Quote:Posted - 2007.08.23 16:46:00 - [1]
The Cruor currently gets:
Special Ability: 50% reduction in Small Energy Turret capacitor use
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Energy Vampire drain amount per level
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier activation range per level
Very funny NEW bonuses on NEW SHIPS !!! WOW!! Thank you CCP Rise, you was found really something NEW !!! We never had it before, only 7 years ago! WOW !
Lets play in 2014 game of 2007 !!! WOW!
After 7 years some new CCP dev will change your bonuses back and he will write same happy post about how hard he work to found new bonuses and we will play in 2020 game of 2013.
Your CCP Devs proved many times, they even doesn't know what kind of bonuses ships have now. Especially funny was when Senior GM even doesn't knew omnidirect modules now using scripts...and he was sure like other GM's, they not use scripts...
So, for me it looks like you all there even doesn't know when you change old ships on old bonuses. Maybe simply install back Trinity or The Empyrean age expansion and thats all, let's back in time, and I will back to play Unreal Tournament 99...and at least will stop pay for CCP hundreds of USD every month.
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 11:42:00 -
[964] - Quote
If you want new stuff whenever something changes, i suggest you go play WoW...
Changing around bonuses in an attemt to make balance, is hard work. just look at the number of people in this thread that have problems with masic math :P Trying to avoid OP ships and at the same time bring use to underused ships mean you ahve to take into accord not just what each and every ship can do, but what players decide they should be able to do |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1319
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 11:49:00 -
[965] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:If you want new stuff whenever something changes, i suggest you go play WoW... Changing around bonuses in an attemt to make balance, is hard work. just look at the number of people in this thread that have problems with masic math :P Trying to avoid OP ships and at the same time bring use to underused ships mean you ahve to take into accord not just what each and every ship can do, but what players decide they should be able to do
That! If older was better.. no reason to not go back. And several old player beleive several things were better.... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory Infernal Octopus
104
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 12:07:00 -
[966] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:If you want new stuff whenever something changes, i suggest you go play WoW... Changing around bonuses in an attemt to make balance, is hard work. just look at the number of people in this thread that have problems with masic math :P Trying to avoid OP ships and at the same time bring use to underused ships mean you ahve to take into accord not just what each and every ship can do, but what players decide they should be able to do
I will explain you in other way, so you will understand maybe like for 6 years old kid.
If I brake your leg, you will need to find job for itself not too far away from your home (in close range). After you found job (I think it will be some job near computer where you can use own 2 hands) so after I will brake your one arm, because I think, you type on computer too fast and even 1 arm will be enough for you. After when you will be absolutely useless, I will tell you - I will repair your broken leg a bit, so you will be rebalanced and find a job far away from own home, with one arm... And after maybe I will brake your second arm, but you can be far away from your home and need to be happy.
So, you want to say, you will be more happy with broken legs and arms, even if I have promised you, I can turn back time and aim fully your leg and we can count it never happened?
Maybe would be better even not to brake your legs and arms and after 7 years understand it? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 12:11:00 -
[967] - Quote
Naava Edios wrote:Onslaughtor wrote:My full thoughts on the proposed Sansha changes. CCP Rise wrote:Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want. While I love the idea of the bonused afterburner, it does not belong on a Sansha ship. The reasons why are that the weapon and tank type of the hull are not enhanced by the bonus in any meaningful way that another ship canGÇÖt do better. The fitting and slot lay-out is very constricting as you have balance tank, tackle, and cap. Finally it goes against the design of the ship and its faction. Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships. Without proper support a Sansha ship should not be able to last on the battlefield . My main proposal is to move the 2 utility highs to a mid and a low on each ship, change the 5% damage bonus to a 7.5% damage bonus, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships. My alternative proposal is the move 1 utility high to a low and to add an extra turret, increase shield hit point amount, and reduce the cargo hold on each ship by 40% to 60%. Make them dependent fleet ships. Ultimately the afterburner bonus would fit better on a hull line designed to handle it and take full advantage of it, MorduGÇÖs Legion would be an optimal choice for this as it fits their flavor more. ^^ I'm with Onslaughtor, Lets get these ship changes right shall we?
Agree 100% completely also with the premise. Although not with the solutions. Although the first two paragraphs are spot on and sum up my own thoughts nicely.
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 12:20:00 -
[968] - Quote
Caera Ashlocke wrote:The reason for this is that the mare is a sniper platform. It is great in missions - slowboating with a gank tank, but if one had to drop a mid mod for an ab, it would sit with tanking issues.
This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.
Let me quote Onslaughter as he sums up how I see Sansha ships perfectly.
Onslaughtor wrote:Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 12:25:00 -
[969] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Y'all gingers got no clue bout the Cruor. The bonuses work wonderful and will synergize into a ship that will dictate anything but a Daredevil*.
*Limitations may apply, such as Blaster-Daredevils s*cking donkeyballs and thus are easy prey. The issue is that you can't use both bonuses at the same time. As soon as you get into nuet/nos range you are in normal web range and once again slower than everything else.
Each of the 2 bonuses is already very powerful on it's own, and while they are not going to collaborate very well at the same time, they both greatly benefit each other. The Web-Bonus allows for application of the NOS/Neut bonus, which will then shut down a target's ability to dictate range. Now probably all of you will say 'No way, not going to happen', and that's because you don't think it to the end. You don't have the right setup in your mind, and yes, if you try to adapt your strategy onto the Cruor, i can see how most of you will get kited by a Rifter - and die horribly to it.
I mentioned it earlier, the only real 'Tech 1' frigate that is probably going to steamroll the new Cruor is a Rail-DD. All the others will be trapped like a fly in a spider's web, trying everything they can to get away, but eventually they will fall to the lurking spider that is the Cruor.
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 12:32:00 -
[970] - Quote
Quindaster wrote:Itago Gemulus wrote:If you want new stuff whenever something changes, i suggest you go play WoW... Changing around bonuses in an attemt to make balance, is hard work. just look at the number of people in this thread that have problems with masic math :P Trying to avoid OP ships and at the same time bring use to underused ships mean you ahve to take into accord not just what each and every ship can do, but what players decide they should be able to do I will explain you in other way, so you will understand maybe like for 6 years old kid. If I brake your leg, you will need to find job for itself not too far away from your home (in close range). After you found job (I think it will be some job near computer where you can use own 2 hands) so after I will brake your one arm, because I think, you type on computer too fast and even 1 arm will be enough for you. After when you will be absolutely useless, I will tell you - I will repair your broken leg a bit, so you will be rebalanced and find a job far away from own home, with one arm... And after maybe I will brake your second arm, but you can be far away from your home and need to be happy. So, you want to say, you will be more happy with broken legs and arms, even if I have promised you, I can turn back time and aim fully your leg and we can count it never happened? Maybe would be better even not to brake your legs and arms and after 7 years understand it?
Ill wait until someone translates this to something i can understand, not beeing a native english speaker myself most likely makes it worse :( |
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
528
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 13:14:00 -
[971] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:One general comment.
Can we please avoid the tiresome cycle of buffing something to the point of being OP, waiting to everyone stockpiles and trains for the newly OP thing and then nerfing that thing to the point of uselessness :D
Guessing a wolf will still dumpster a succubus 97/100, a slicer will possibly keep on murdering that worm, and the cruor will have a hard time against the tweaked rifter.
At least that's what it looks like to me. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
Lugalzagezi666
220
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 15:01:00 -
[972] - Quote
The cruors bonuses and ship capabilities are complete opposite of synergy.
Web range bonus will not help you to apply neuts at all, because the second you are counterscrammed, you completely lose range dictation. Then the opponent has almost 5km (6,3 - 10,8km) window where he can comfortably avoid getting neuted. And only thing the opponent needs to have is mwd and scram. And if you are fitting scram on cruor, you can as well ignore web range bonus... and web strenght bonus would be much better for you.
Simply said, another example of ccp randomly applying bonuses, layouts and fittings to the hulls and not caring about its synergy with other bonuses, weapon systems or hulls capabilities. And what is sad, most people only care about web strenght bonus of their incursion farming, wh farming and dread blap enabling serpentis ships.
Cant wait to see afterburner nightmare or heavy drone only rattlesnake.
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Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
214
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 15:55:00 -
[973] - Quote
Looks like a good time. I actually like that the cruor has some bonuses that don't synergize well with only one playstyle. Forces you to comprimise to get the most you can out of the ship or underutilize one of the bonuses. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
564
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 16:13:00 -
[974] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Stop being crybabies, all changes look good...especially if you take into account the state of the hulls before them. I really look forward to the new Worm myself, I think a 10mn AB support frig loadout would be peachy... CCP Rise wrote: We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never. Glad to hear that, and thanks for a very nice re-balance thread...can you confirm at this point whether the faction will be one of the known candidates? (Thukker, Mordus Legion) C:
Thukker seems like a good candidate. Would give Thukker missioning in Great Wildlands a much needed buff. Free Ripley Weaver! |
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
112
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 16:55:00 -
[975] - Quote
Quindaster wrote:I will explain you in other way, so you will understand maybe like for 6 years old kid.
If I brake your leg, you will need to find job for itself not too far away from your home (in close range). After you found job (I think it will be some job near computer where you can use own 2 hands) so after I will brake your one arm, because I think, you type on computer too fast and even 1 arm will be enough for you. After when you will be absolutely useless, I will tell you - I will repair your broken leg a bit, so you will be rebalanced and find a job far away from own home, with one arm... And after maybe I will brake your second arm, but you can be far away from your home and need to be happy.
So, you want to say, you will be more happy with broken legs and arms, even if I have promised you, I can turn back time and aim fully your leg and we can count it never happened?
Maybe would be better even not to brake your legs and arms and after 7 years understand it? Please tell me I'm not the only one that read this in a threatening Russian voice. |
White Drop
True Horde No Value
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 17:43:00 -
[976] - Quote
Dramiel needs to be buffed.
Right now it is only used as a fast frig, and in combat it is not more than a firetail with a limited PG and much bigger price |
Elusive Panda
The Sky People
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:08:00 -
[977] - Quote
Quindaster wrote:
I will explain you in other way, so you will understand maybe like for 6 years old kid.
If I brake your leg, you will need to find job for itself not too far away from your home (in close range). After you found job (I think it will be some job near computer where you can use own 2 hands) so after I will brake your one arm, because I think, you type on computer too fast and even 1 arm will be enough for you. After when you will be absolutely useless, I will tell you - I will repair your broken leg a bit, so you will be rebalanced and find a job far away from own home, with one arm... And after maybe I will brake your second arm, but you can be far away from your home and need to be happy.
So, you want to say, you will be more happy with broken legs and arms, even if I have promised you, I can turn back time and aim fully your leg and we can count it never happened?
Maybe would be better even not to brake your legs and arms and after 7 years understand it?
What is this, I don't even... We're trying to find a balance here, if it was this way 7 years ago, who cares? Also, your analogy is impossible to decipher.
That said. the Cruor bonuses doesn't synergize well together, maybe add a range bonus on top of it so it gets at least 10km neut range, the same as cold webs so you can't be scram kited OR give it a base speed bonus so it can dictate range more easily. (Neut range seems more in line with the blood theme).
Being a Gila pilot myself, I can't wait to try the new Worm, it looks absolutely perfect. (Still have some doubt about the Gila implementation, but we'll see when we get there) .
The massive AB bonus on the Sansha looks interesting, but it feels out of place IMO. I feel like Sansha's ship should be beefy, powerful, slow, with an alien twist somewhere. While the AB bonus IS totally unique, it just doesn't seems very Sansha like. + the capacitor and laser tracking problem.
Minmatar/Caldari Missile based pirate faction (Mordu's ?) seems like a better faction to give the 100% AB bonus to. Missile ignore YOUR own speed when calculating damage application (thus the huge speed from the AB isn't such a problem) and speed is the name of the game for Minmatar. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
559
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:25:00 -
[978] - Quote
Noxisia Arkana wrote:Looks like a good time. I actually like that the cruor has some bonuses that don't synergize well with only one playstyle. Forces you to comprimise to get the most you can out of the ship or underutilize one of the bonuses.
it's really bad. like the sentinel or dragoon, you get a silly 1v1 brawler that can kill/escape from any lone frigate (not that anyone will engage), but because of the 3 lowslot thing, that's actually all you can do with it. in any kind of small gang thing, you'll be instantly killed because everyone knows you're in a dangerous ship that's unable to fit any kind of tank. either that, or you're planning to make some sort of fat hyena out of it. that's awful as well, and really not what it should be doing.
I already posted it, but they should drop the web bonus and a mid for a lowslot and a resist or armour hp bonus. a 2 midslot brawling frigate does work well enough if it caps everything out. lasers and cap warfare is enough of a thing for these ships imo, they don't need the web thing as well. |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:26:00 -
[979] - Quote
I'm digging the extra webby range, keep that atleast on her.
I don't agree on Sansha ships having underpowered capacitors, there is more than ASB's too, Rise.
Also see if you can work drone effects into the ships too when you're taking a look at drones (extra capacitor draining bonus on drones, increasing webby effectiveness on web drones, etc)
What about drones that can smartbomb and have 99% racial resistance? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
559
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:37:00 -
[980] - Quote
Pertuabo Enkidgan wrote: I don't agree on Sansha ships having underpowered capacitors, there is more than ASB's too, Rise.
I hear medium shield extenders are really good, and don't use cap. |
|
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
528
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:03:00 -
[981] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:[quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.]
If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it.
Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd.
Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
559
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:12:00 -
[982] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:[quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.] If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it. Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd. Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram.
dual prop is stupid |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
510
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:14:00 -
[983] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage,
yay, I remember saying last time around the rattler needed a damage bonus.
heh looking at those posts now kinda makes me laugh, as they were all pre drone damage amp mods. but still, the rattlesnake needs more damage. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:34:00 -
[984] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:[quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.] If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it. Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd. Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram. Your are thinking simply of the frigate, I am thinking ahead in terms of what is to come for the Phantasm and Nightmare. The frigate is alright, and an afterburner bonus makes some sense, obviously you will always have a prop mod on a frigate anyway so there is no issue using a mid slot for it. But for the Phantasm and Nightmare, then the problems I mentioned above will become apparent. I expect more people will have complaints when we see the Cruiser's and then finally the Battleships if these bonuses are left. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
559
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:44:00 -
[985] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:[quote=Caera Ashlocke]This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox.] If you're in a frigate with THAT sort of AB-speed, you don't really bother with the additional 10m sig you get by buffershieldtanking it. Moreover: 3/4/3 is all but a dedicated shieldlayout. The most common succubus might rather be a webscramkiter with an AAR and a TD, potentially even dualrepped with cap booster. They also don't need to drop a mid for an AB, that's nonsense. One of your mids will ALWAYS be a propmod on any frigatefit, it just means that fitting an AB makes so much more sense compared ot fitting an mwd. Lastly, a single MSE is plenty of tank, with the current slot/bonuslayout, there is nothing blocking you from fitting it like a dp-dram. Your are thinking simply of the frigate, I am thinking ahead in terms of what is to come for the Phantasm and Nightmare. The frigate is alright, and an afterburner bonus makes some sense, obviously you will always have a prop mod on a frigate anyway so there is no issue using a mid slot for it. But for the Phantasm and Nightmare, then the problems I mentioned above will become apparent. I expect more people will have complaints when we see the Cruiser's and then finally the Battleships if these bonuses are left.
the frigate isn't alright, it's stupid. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 20:09:00 -
[986] - Quote
When I say it is alright, I mean it is good purely in terms of it's performance. I dislike the whole Caldari ship skills giving Sansha an afterburner bonus immensely. And the Phantasm, and especially the Nightmare, are not going to look anywhere near as good as the frigate does in terms of performance as a result of an afterburner bonus.
What is going to be the point in a faction bonus when it only positively impacts the performance of one ship out of the whole line up, and the most insignificant ship at that. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
111
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 20:27:00 -
[987] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Caera Ashlocke wrote:The reason for this is that the mare is a sniper platform. It is great in missions - slowboating with a gank tank, but if one had to drop a mid mod for an ab, it would sit with tanking issues. This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox. Let me quote Onslaughter as he sums up how I see Sansha ships perfectly. Onslaughtor wrote:Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships.
Right, so the nighmare should have dps approaching that of a Vindicator (but with only 4 turrets though I could see going up to 5 now). Additionally it should have a smaller signature than all of the other faction battleships by a significant margin..enough that adding two shield extenders makes its signature equal to what it is now. It speed as a base number should be only under the machariel by a moderate margin (50m/sec or so deficit) and the tracking bonus will help to operate while burning in its evil angelic orbits at the very edge of Scorch optimal.
So to extrapolate this in reverse to the Phantasm...it needs to perform above 1500m/sec(2,200 preferably) with a t2 10mn ab with a sig of about 70. Oh and be cap stable k thx.
The succubus with a 1mn should be able to hit 3K+ with the afterburner and have enough agility to maintain a good orbit while doing so. It should have its dps multiplier set to 200% not 150. The status quo is unacceptable.
Pirate ships in 1v1's should be fearsome machines..and in terms of raw power out perform T2 equivalents. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
559
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 20:35:00 -
[988] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Caera Ashlocke wrote:The reason for this is that the mare is a sniper platform. It is great in missions - slowboating with a gank tank, but if one had to drop a mid mod for an ab, it would sit with tanking issues. This is a problem, the afterburner bonus does not sit well at all on a shield heavy ship. Beside the fact that large signature and speed tanking don't synergise at all, now this bonus makes it pretty much imperative that we will have to drop another highly valuable mid slot to fit an afterburner or otherwise the bonus will be useless. It limits options completely which is never a good design in a game which is meant to be a sandbox. Let me quote Onslaughter as he sums up how I see Sansha ships perfectly. Onslaughtor wrote:Sansha ships are the vessels of a hard hitting sovereign nation, they are made to crush other empire fleets under boot, not to do hit and runs or to minimize damage. The main way I see to get Sansha ships being used is to make them what they are meant to be: main fleet combat ships. Right, so the nighmare should have dps approaching that of a Vindicator (but with only 4 turrets though I could see going up to 5 now). Additionally it should have a smaller signature than all of the other faction battleships by a significant margin..enough that adding two shield extenders makes its signature equal to what it is now. It speed as a base number should be only under the machariel by a moderate margin (50m/sec or so deficit) and the tracking bonus will help to operate while burning in its evil angelic orbits at the very edge of Scorch optimal. So to extrapolate this in reverse to the Phantasm...it needs to perform above 1500m/sec(2,200 preferably) with a t2 10mn ab with a sig of about 70. Oh and be cap stable k thx. The succubus with a 1mn should be able to hit 3K+ with the afterburner and have enough agility to maintain a good orbit while doing so. It should have its dps multiplier set to 200% not 150. The status quo is unacceptable. Pirate ships in 1v1's should be fearsome machines..and in terms of raw power out perform T2 equivalents.
it's not like shield buffer tanking gives you a worse speed:sig than armour buffer. what is up with everyone? |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
164
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 21:14:00 -
[989] - Quote
still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules....... |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2002
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 21:40:00 -
[990] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Thukker seems like a good candidate. Would give Thukker missioning in Great Wildlands a much needed buff.
Thukker LP is already quite good.
If anyone has a crappy LP store, its the Mordus. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
652
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 22:21:00 -
[991] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules.......
or shield HP Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 23:25:00 -
[992] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules....... or shield HP
Why? |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
652
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 23:30:00 -
[993] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Harvey James wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules....... or shield HP Why?
well guristas have the shield resistance they won't give it to sansha aswell .. but a shield HP they might Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
410
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 23:50:00 -
[994] - Quote
Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.
As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.
Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.
I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race. |
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 00:59:00 -
[995] - Quote
WORM
I use the Worm a lot and I always associated Guristas with big shields, big drone bays and a couple of launchers.
If CCP goes with the plan from the OP then I would suggest a Guristas feature of having their Drone bays carry 5 sets of drones, this would mean for the Worm that it would have a drone bay of 50m3 (2 drone x 5 m3 x 5 sets).
|
Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory Infernal Octopus
104
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 01:02:00 -
[996] - Quote
Elusive Panda wrote:What is this, I don't even... We're trying to find a balance here, if it was this way 7 years ago, who cares?
I tell you who cares - me and many old players. I don't want to play in "first brake something good, and after when we brake it - play in back in time game before we brake it" If you will try to buy new car in 2014 and when you paid for it, you will get 7 years old car and you will ask - why you get 7 years old car if you paid for new? ANd auto seller will answer you - it's absolutely new, new everything, just 7 years old technology inside it, but it's looks like new car of 2014. I think you will care. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 02:15:00 -
[997] - Quote
Quindaster wrote:Elusive Panda wrote:What is this, I don't even... We're trying to find a balance here, if it was this way 7 years ago, who cares? I tell you who cares - me and many old players. I don't want to play in "first brake something good, and after when we brake it - play in back in time game before we brake it" If you will try to buy new car in 2014 and when you paid for it, you will get 7 years old car and you will ask - why you get 7 years old car if you paid for new? ANd auto seller will answer you - it's absolutely new, new everything, just 7 years old technology inside it, but it's looks like new car of 2014. I think you will care. Isnt that what most people already do, new tech is for top of the line cars and consumer valued cars use "old" tech |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 02:50:00 -
[998] - Quote
SUCCUBUS
The AB bonus feels very out of place on a sansha ship indeed a Shield HP bonus would be pretty unique and be much more in line with what one would expect from sansha ships piloted by mind controlled slaves
also I think that increasing the damage bonus to 200% would give it some more needed oomph
CRUOR
here the the ab bonus of the succubus fits much better then the web range bonus which as explained several times in this thread only helps to get in range against ships that don't have a web themselves
adding a neut range bonus on top at 15% would be an option too but probably too powerful
WORM
Gallente engineers know jack about missiles! the 300% drone bonus is very powerful and it should be required to have caldari frigate 5 to get the full benefit 266dps with 3dda's dang it!
also im not sure if the missile damage bonus has much of a reason to exist 2 light launchers add 48dps rockets add 56 seems like a waste of a bonus to me
DAREDEVIL
seems solid
DRAMIEL
might get left behind, consider giving it some of its power grid back or maybe increasing its falloff bonus by 5% a tad more lock range would help it tackle better Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 03:30:00 -
[999] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.
As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.
Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.
I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race.
nice point there, and its lore based because the background of sansha ships is that they were designed to be enduring hulls, taking in account where they come from, Sansha should have put a good effort in tanking the ship. so a buffer bonus would be interesting......
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage) |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 05:12:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Lucine Delacourt wrote:Harvey James wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:still saying, the Sanshas should have a caldari bonus for SHIELD TANKING!........either 4% aditional resistances, shield boost amount or a new bonus for shield tanking modules....... or shield HP Why? well guristas have the shield resistance they won't give it to sansha aswell .. but a shield HP they might
Why any shield bonus at all? |
|
Onslaughtor
Carbon.
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 05:42:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.
As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.
Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.
I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race. nice point there, and its lore based because the background of sansha ships is that they were designed to be enduring hulls, taking in account where they come from, Sansha should have put a good effort in tanking the ship. so a buffer bonus would be interesting...... SUCCUBUS Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvlRole Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 09:53:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:Silivar Karkun wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.
As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.
Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.
I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race. nice point there, and its lore based because the background of sansha ships is that they were designed to be enduring hulls, taking in account where they come from, Sansha should have put a good effort in tanking the ship. so a buffer bonus would be interesting...... SUCCUBUS Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvlRole Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage) We would still likely have to drop a high to a low and retrieve the lost slot on the Phantasm and the Nightmare, but I could get behind this. A 10% bonus will be far too high given that Sansha can already attain very high levels of shield HP, on the nightmare it will be downright OP with this bonus. Although I really like the concept, I just think the numbers need tweaking.
How about something like this :
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret (damage) and tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: (5%) bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage[/quote]
I prefer to give more emphasise to the ship skill than to a role bonus, as a pirate ship shouldn't be easy to jump into and simply get maximum stats. Also I think it would be nice to give Sansha ships a 7.5% damage bonus, this would mean overall damage would be at 175% instead of the current 150%.
The Nightmare could be given a 20% base shield nerf perhaps to counteract this shield bonus as I feel the nightmare is probably only needing a very slight buff if any at all to keep it competitive. The 175% damage bonus would mean that it would have 11 effective turrets instead of 10, and then perhaps a small boost to it's shield would be all that is necessary.
The Phantasm and Succubus would both become very desirable due to their raw power. They would both benefit from a higher base shield capacity with this bonus, without the drawback that fitting shield mods brings of a lower signature. And with the Succubus having the equivalent of 5.5 turrets, and the Phantasm 8.25 turrets, both would be able to deliver comparable damage to other pirate ships of their class.
Then as a result you could make the Cruor like this:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage Energy Vampires always operate at full efficiency
|
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
529
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 13:56:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Yes it is, still doesn't change the fact you could. It's just not necessary as AB-speeds are already this high. I can't follow on your complaints regarding AB-bonus. It's extremely strong on itself, but the whole ships comes with compromises.
You can buffer it and your 2km/s are slightly countered by a 40-46m sig, you can plate it and lose some of the speed, or you can active tank it and run into cap issues. It's a strong bonus, but there are limitations to the whole ship and it's guns tracking or dps. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
410
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 15:09:00 -
[1004] - Quote
I am not about to worry what a given bonus will do to the cruisers or battleships. These things can be adjusted on those hulls when the time comes. These ships follow themes, they are not cloned and just made bigger.
My main worry with a %hp shield bonus is the passive Regen. At some point you can get enough shields that you have the regen of a booster without actually having a booster. I dont think this will be much of an issue with a frigates limited slots though, so 10%/level is probably fine. It bears watching though. I am not terribly pleased with a tracking bonus as both Amarr and Caldari favor optimal range bonuses on their turrets. I can see where a tracking bonus is needed at the boosted AB speed, but I am not sure that it would not be better to have them pull some range, fly at something other than 100% when fireing, or other pilot skill solutions to that problem. I would like to see this:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Afterburner Velocity 35% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range (or tracking if it determined this is really needed, not just better) |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 15:33:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:I am not about to worry what a given bonus will do to the cruisers or battleships. These things can be adjusted on those hulls when the time comes. These ships follow themes, they are not cloned and just made bigger.
My main worry with a %hp shield bonus is the passive Regen. At some point you can get enough shields that you have the regen of a booster without actually having a booster. I dont think this will be much of an issue with a frigates limited slots though, so 10%/level is probably fine. It bears watching though. I am not terribly pleased with a tracking bonus as both Amarr and Caldari favor optimal range bonuses on their turrets. I can see where a tracking bonus is needed at the boosted AB speed, but I am not sure that it would not be better to have them pull some range, fly at something other than 100% when fireing, or other pilot skill solutions to that problem. I would like to see this:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Afterburner Velocity 35% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range (or tracking if it determined this is really needed, not just better)
too much bonuses for a single hull(no more Nestors pls)....you either leave the optimal bonus or the AB bonus.......in fact:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7,5% to small energy turret Optimal Range and Tracking Speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to small energy turret damage
this should do the trick......that 7,5% bonus would have a really good synergy with T2 Crystals, specially Conflagration... |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
410
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 15:43:00 -
[1006] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I am not about to worry what a given bonus will do to the cruisers or battleships. These things can be adjusted on those hulls when the time comes. These ships follow themes, they are not cloned and just made bigger.
My main worry with a %hp shield bonus is the passive Regen. At some point you can get enough shields that you have the regen of a booster without actually having a booster. I dont think this will be much of an issue with a frigates limited slots though, so 10%/level is probably fine. It bears watching though. I am not terribly pleased with a tracking bonus as both Amarr and Caldari favor optimal range bonuses on their turrets. I can see where a tracking bonus is needed at the boosted AB speed, but I am not sure that it would not be better to have them pull some range, fly at something other than 100% when fireing, or other pilot skill solutions to that problem. I would like to see this:
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Afterburner Velocity 35% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range (or tracking if it determined this is really needed, not just better) too much bonuses for a single hull(no more Nestors pls)....you either leave the optimal bonus or the AB bonus.......in fact: SUCCUBUS Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7,5% to small energy turret Optimal Range and Tracking SpeedCaldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to small energy turret damagethis should do the trick......that 7,5% bonus would have a really good synergy with T2 Crystals, specially Conflagration...
Dude... You claim too many bonuses on one hull, take away one bonus, and then replace it by strengthening one of the other bonuses and adding a bonus.
Putting the optimal or tracking with the ab bonus fits because it counters the negative effects of the increased speed. Given the range of lasers I would sooner leave the application bonus completely off than drop the AB and replace it with a stronger application bonus in both tracking and range. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3032
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 16:17:00 -
[1007] - Quote
10% bonus to shield HP per level? ******* seriously? Strop trying to make overpowered incursion boats with your nightmares, guys. Ridiculous.
AB bonus is fine and dandy. All these shield bonus suggestions don't take into account the side-effect of affecting the Nightmare the most and the Succubus the least, the exact and total opposite of what Rise is trying to do. He wants the Succubus to be affected the most and the Nightmare the least with the same bonus. AB bonus does that. Shield HP bonus does not.
Not that saying any of this is going to change Mike Voidstar's mind. Thankfully he's not in charge of rebalancing. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Jaari Val'Dara
Wormbro Ocularis Inferno
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 16:39:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Just edited evehq succubus hull, and with double nanofibers and faction 10mn afterburners, it goes 6922m/s when overloaded. It has a bit slow allign speed, but dam is it fast. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
413
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 16:43:00 -
[1009] - Quote
Jaari Val'Dara wrote:Just edited evehq succubus hull, and with double nanofibers and faction 10mn afterburners, it goes 6922m/s when overloaded. It has a bit slow allign speed, but dam is it fast.
Yeah, but it would have a turn radius of like 40km. |
Jaari Val'Dara
Wormbro Ocularis Inferno
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 16:45:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Jaari Val'Dara wrote:Just edited evehq succubus hull, and with double nanofibers and faction 10mn afterburners, it goes 6922m/s when overloaded. It has a bit slow allign speed, but dam is it fast. Yeah, but it would have a turn radius of like 40km. With nomads its allign speed is about 9seconds. I wonder what that means. |
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
413
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 16:57:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Jaari Val'Dara wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Jaari Val'Dara wrote:Just edited evehq succubus hull, and with double nanofibers and faction 10mn afterburners, it goes 6922m/s when overloaded. It has a bit slow allign speed, but dam is it fast. Yeah, but it would have a turn radius of like 40km. With nomads its allign speed is about 9seconds. I wonder what that means.
Geometry is not something I excel at, but I am pretty sure it means your ship is going to be orbiting a circumference of around 125k.
Someone better at this sort of thing than me can tell you what that works out to be as far as the minimum orbit at the maximum velocity would be. |
Jaari Val'Dara
Wormbro Ocularis Inferno
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 17:02:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Jaari Val'Dara wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Jaari Val'Dara wrote:Just edited evehq succubus hull, and with double nanofibers and faction 10mn afterburners, it goes 6922m/s when overloaded. It has a bit slow allign speed, but dam is it fast. Yeah, but it would have a turn radius of like 40km. With nomads its allign speed is about 9seconds. I wonder what that means. Geometry is not something I excel at, but I am pretty sure it means your ship is going to be orbiting a circumference of around 125k. Someone better at this sort of thing than me can tell you what that works out to be as far as the minimum orbit at the maximum velocity would be.
I found this formula:
r = A * m * v^2 / (sqrt (Vmax^2 - v^2) * 10^6) r = Orbital Radius A = Agility m = ship mass (in kg) VMax = maximum velocity for the ship v = orbit velocity for the ship
r = 1.170195 * 965000 * 6000^2 / sqrt (6922^2 - v^2)* 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / sqrt (47914084 - 36000000) * 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / sqrt (11914084) * 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / 3451,678432299278 * 10^6 r = 11777,625 So to go at 6km/s I would need to orbit at 11.77km |
Kaldfir Gongukaslan
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 18:28:00 -
[1013] - Quote
SUCCUBUS: I feel like the AB bonus is cool, but Sansha seems like a really strange line of ships to put it on. They're meant to be hi-tech supervillains, so putting pretty much any other bonus would make more sense than this. You could do fun things with point range, bonuses that make smartbombs viable on small ships, allow fitting of MJD on smaller ships, bonuses to active shield tank mods, ewar bonuses - the list of fun hi-tech stuff you could do goes on and on.
Shelf the AB thing and use it on the next faction line that gets introduced (because it is a good bonus). Come up with something that fits the faction better. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 19:37:00 -
[1014] - Quote
Jaari Val'Dara wrote:I found this formula:
r = A * m * v^2 / (sqrt (Vmax^2 - v^2) * 10^6) r = Orbital Radius A = Agility m = ship mass (in kg) VMax = maximum velocity for the ship v = orbit velocity for the ship
r = 1.170195 * 965000 * 6000^2 / sqrt (6922^2 - 6000^2)* 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / sqrt (47914084 - 36000000) * 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / sqrt (11914084) * 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / 3451,678432299278 * 10^6 r = 11777,625 So to go at 6km/s I would need to orbit at 11.77km
Without nomads:
r = 1.601501 * 965000 * 6000^2 / sqrt (6922^2 - 6000^2)* 10^6 r = 16118 To be honest, it is going to be quite amusing if these changes go ahead and make Sansha ship's the best speed tanking ships in the universe. Who needs Minmatar.
|
Jaari Val'Dara
Wormbro Ocularis Inferno
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 19:50:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Jaari Val'Dara wrote:I found this formula:
r = A * m * v^2 / (sqrt (Vmax^2 - v^2) * 10^6) r = Orbital Radius A = Agility m = ship mass (in kg) VMax = maximum velocity for the ship v = orbit velocity for the ship
r = 1.170195 * 965000 * 6000^2 / sqrt (6922^2 - 6000^2)* 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / sqrt (47914084 - 36000000) * 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / sqrt (11914084) * 10^6 r = 40652574300000 / 3451,678432299278 * 10^6 r = 11777,625 So to go at 6km/s I would need to orbit at 11.77km
Without nomads:
r = 1.601501 * 965000 * 6000^2 / sqrt (6922^2 - 6000^2)* 10^6 r = 16118 To be honest, it is going to be quite amusing if these changes go ahead and make Sansha ship's the best speed tanking ships in the universe. Who needs Minmatar.
Yea with lg snakes it goes 8032m/s. So it orbits at 7km/s at 19.2km orbit. I will need to fit beams, but it will be rather fun. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2474
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 20:01:00 -
[1016] - Quote
i still can't quite see how the cruor is supposed to work.
If you see it as full brawler you could say the web range bonus has the lone purpose to catch kiters, and somehow bring them into scram range. Nos range is half scram range. Which means that you will have to be point black to the target. If you aren't dead yet or capped out before being in nos range you now have the problem of having to fight something this close in the second worst tracking weapon system available: lasers.
It could work however if you would give it a small nos/neut range bonus (e.g the one of the dragoon) to be able to kite stuff at max scram range. Or do something crazy and give it a laser tracking bonus. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
71
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 20:25:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:i still can't quite see how the cruor is supposed to work.
If you see it as full brawler you could say the web range bonus has the lone purpose to catch kiters, and somehow bring them into scram range. Nos range is half scram range. Which means that you will have to be point black to the target. If you aren't dead yet or capped out before being in nos range you now have the problem of having to fight something this close in the second worst tracking weapon system available: lasers.
It could work however if you would give it a small nos/neut range bonus (e.g the one of the dragoon) to be able to kite stuff at max scram range. Or do something crazy and give it a laser tracking bonus.
yeah the AB bonus would fit so much better with short neuts since it allows you to stay fast orbiting in scram range and get to that range in the first place without taking too much damage and it would come from the minmatar skills not the caldari one >_<
and as I said earlier probably the only BS that would like to have that bonus is a Bhaal fit for fleet combat allowing it to avoid dreads more easily Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
90
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 20:31:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.
As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.
Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.
I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race.
It's for this reason I was very annoyed at the fact that CCP didn't give the Vulture a 10% shield HP bonus for a shield equivalent of the damnation. That being said, I still think they should just go with the 10% range buff per level; it would make them extremely good laser platforms that would balance well, as long as the dropped a high for a low on the phantasm as well. Or both utility highs. That would be kind of awesome if they made it a strict military laser platform. |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
90
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 20:33:00 -
[1019] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:10% bonus to shield HP per level? ******* seriously? Strop trying to make overpowered incursion boats with your nightmares, guys. Ridiculous.
AB bonus is fine and dandy. All these shield bonus suggestions don't take into account the side-effect of affecting the Nightmare the most and the Succubus the least, the exact and total opposite of what Rise is trying to do. He wants the Succubus to be affected the most and the Nightmare the least with the same bonus. AB bonus does that. Shield HP bonus does not.
Not that saying any of this is going to change Mike Voidstar's mind. Thankfully he's not in charge of rebalancing.
What about something unique like a reduction of the sig radius of its guns per level? Seeing that on the nightmare and a range bonus per level on the phantasm might be interesting to see. |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
90
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 20:34:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Bienator II wrote:i still can't quite see how the cruor is supposed to work.
If you see it as full brawler you could say the web range bonus has the lone purpose to catch kiters, and somehow bring them into scram range. Nos range is half scram range. Which means that you will have to be point black to the target. If you aren't dead yet or capped out before being in nos range you now have the problem of having to fight something this close in the second worst tracking weapon system available: lasers.
It could work however if you would give it a small nos/neut range bonus (e.g the one of the dragoon) to be able to kite stuff at max scram range. Or do something crazy and give it a laser tracking bonus. yeah the AB bonus would fit so much better with short neuts since it allows you to stay fast orbiting in scram range and get to that range in the first place without taking too much damage and it would come from the minmatar skills not the caldari one >_< and as I said earlier probably the only BS that would like to have that bonus is a Bhaal fit for fleet combat allowing it to avoid dreads more easily
Cruor would be much better served by dropping the web bonus for a neut range bonus. Or they could roll the two bonuses into one, and cheat a little bit... |
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2474
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 21:13:00 -
[1021] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote: yeah the AB bonus would fit so much better with short neuts since it allows you to stay fast orbiting in scram range
you can't really do this. With the speed you would get out of the AB you wouldn't be able to hit anything unless you put ACs on the cruor.
It doesn't have a tracking bonus and it uses lasers. You better stay >5km or you will have problems hitting anything if you orbit. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
167
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 22:51:00 -
[1022] - Quote
then just change the AB bonus for an optimal range bonus, maybe increase its max velocity or something, but the AB bonus still sounds like out of place for a CALDARI bonus...... |
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
113
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 22:54:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Nos range is half scram range. Which means that you will have to be point black to the target.
Not trying to say a ship should be designed with pimp mods in mind, but there are some fairly cheap, nice nos that reach to the edge of scram range. So it could work with some investment in the nos. Seems pretty similar to how I almost never see a DD fit without a faction web at least. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
560
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 00:02:00 -
[1024] - Quote
Jon Joringer wrote:Bienator II wrote:Nos range is half scram range. Which means that you will have to be point black to the target. Not trying to say a ship should be designed with pimp mods in mind, but there are some fairly cheap, nice nos that reach to the edge of scram range. So it could work with some investment in the nos. Seems pretty similar to how I almost never see a DD fit without a faction web at least.
total waste on a proper DD. only matters on link-abuse scrub rail DDs. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 02:21:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: Cruor would be much better served by dropping the web bonus for a neut range bonus. Or they could roll the two bonuses into one, and cheat a little bit...
dropping the web bonus would just make it a worse sentinel, giving it 75% to range and amount would give it 13,125km with neuts and 11,55 with nos, lessening the problem of being kited but that bonus could not be transfered to ashimmu or bhaal since 22,05km or 44,1km nos/neut would be very powerful especially on the bhaal Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
94
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 03:45:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:then just change the AB bonus for an optimal range bonus, maybe increase its max velocity or something, but the AB bonus still sounds like out of place for a CALDARI bonus......
I think you are getting a little too caught up in the bonus being attached to the Caldari Frigate skill. Being able to get twice as much speed out of an AB is the exact kind of advance in tech that fits well with the Sansha. The bonus is also awesome for playability. The proposed ship looks fun to fly, so stop trying to get it changed over something minor. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2963
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 05:15:00 -
[1027] - Quote
So 51 pages in... what'd I miss? Yay or nay, or are we pegging our hopes on the second iteration? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 05:27:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So 51 pages in... what'd I miss? Yay or nay, or are we pegging our hopes on the second iteration?
Most people are intrigued and are waiting to see how they function once they hit the test server. Then a select few are trying to get bonuses changed for nit picking or completely irrelevant reasons. The exception is the Cruor. Most are confused/concerned by it's conflicting bonuses. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2963
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 05:50:00 -
[1029] - Quote
I think we need to see the whole Pirate line-up before we can really give some honest feedback, ie: cruisers and battleships as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 09:26:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:So 51 pages in... what'd I miss? Yay or nay, or are we pegging our hopes on the second iteration? Most people are intrigued and are waiting to see how they function once they hit the test server. Then a select few are trying to get bonuses changed for nit picking or completely irrelevant reasons. The exception is the Cruor. Most are confused/concerned by it's conflicting bonuses.
So Sansha being the best speed tanking ships in the Eve universe doesn't seem out of place to you at all?
There are many valid complaints. For instance the a Gallente skill giving a missile bonus.... If you can't see how that is wrong then you need to stay away from balance.
Although it is not just that some of the bonuses are in direct contrast to the overarching concepts which exist within the game, there are also fitting and practical problems which I am aware of with the Succubus and Cruor.
As mentioned many times before, an afterburner bonus means that an afterburner is going to be a necessity on a ship which is renown for shield tanking. That means we are forced to drop a shield mod, and if we want to fit a MWD, then now we can't do that either unless we want to dual prop. Removing fitting options in a sand box is never desirable.
On top of that, we are also forced to reduce the shield further if we want to actually make use of the afterburner bonus as the more shield mods and rigs we fit, the more we lose in our speed tanking ability. The Sansha ships will just become a confused mess in terms of fitting, not to mention in terms of the lore.
I'll leave the Cruor to other people, although that would much better suit an afterburner bonus. Against small targets it may have some tracking problems, but at least it will allow it to get into range and stay there to nuet the target down. Personally though I prefer the 90% webs. |
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1133
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 10:20:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:
So Sansha being the best speed tanking ships in the Eve universe doesn't seem out of place to you at all?
There are many valid complaints. For instance the a Gallente skill giving a missile bonus.... If you can't see how that is wrong then you need to stay away from balance.
You're confusing lore with balance, in both cases.
I hope I'm not doing you a disservice, but it strikes me that much of the complaining about Sansha seems to be coming from highsec Incursion runners who just want a tankier or gankier Nightmare. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 10:30:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:
So Sansha being the best speed tanking ships in the Eve universe doesn't seem out of place to you at all?
There are many valid complaints. For instance the a Gallente skill giving a missile bonus.... If you can't see how that is wrong then you need to stay away from balance.
You're confusing lore with balance, in both cases. I hope I'm not doing you a disservice, but it strikes me that much of the complaining about Sansha seems to be coming from highsec Incursion runners who just want a tankier or gankier Nightmare.
Incorrect, I am talking about both lore and also the performance of the ship. I'm not looking so much at balance as if anything an afterburner is possibly OP.
Also I do not run Incursions, although I do live out in null sec and make extensive use of Pirate ships, primarily Blood Raider and Sansha. I also respect the lore of the game, and really enjoy the Sansha and Blood Raider stories and philosophies on warfare and other such things and try to build my ships around such themes, a hit and run Sansha fleet does little for me, wheras on the other hand a hit and run Blood Raider war band is something which gets my interest.
I am hoping to find out one day how they are linked with each other, it is well known the blood raiders and sansha's have links with one another, and it would be a nice touch if the ships also reflected that.
A overarching lore which makes sense is one of the big draws of the game. |
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 10:33:00 -
[1033] - Quote
After a lot of trial and error, and some help, I learned how to edit the pyfa database files. Now I feel I can give a proper proposal for Sansha ship with more than just mental number crunching.
Quote:1. Leave all bonuses the same. (The nightmare and Succubus could use a little more DPS but its not necessary.)
2. Move the two utility highs to one mid and one low. (This gives all 3 ships what they desperately need, more room to do their job while balancing tank, gank, and cap.)
3. Reduce the cap amount on the Phantasm and the Nightmare by 25%. (The Succubus doesnGÇÖt need this handicap, the Phantasm and the Nightmare can take this reduction for the extra slots they gain.)
4. Reduce the cargo hold on all 3 ships by 30%, 50%, and 50% respectively. (This cuts down on cap boosters for ASBs and normal boosters, forcing the ships to seek fleet assistance.)
5. Remove all drone bandwidth and drone bays from the ships that have. (Helps force the ships to seek fleet assistance.)
6. CPU needs to be reduced on the Phantasm and Nightmare by 15-20% and 20-25% respectively. Power Grid needs to be reduced on the Phantasm and Nightmare by 0-5% and 5-10% respectively. (After the removal of the 2 utility highs there is too much CPU and Power Grid left over.)
What this does is create a line of ships that tend to have tanks and dps levels that approach the ship class above it. In the case of the Nightmare, it is on-par with its other pirate Battleships because it can perform slightly better than them without any of their unique utility. I feel that this makes the ships not only distinctly Sansha but also makes them compelling as a ship.
For those who want to check my numbers and would like to test my proposed changes eve.db ^This is the edited Database I've been playing with. Only the slot layout and ?maybe? the 25% cap reduction changes are implemented. To install it just replace the eve.db file in the staticdata folder where you pyfa is located. Be sure to back up your old one.
And for those moaning about the Cruor. The web range bonus is awesome for small gangs. If it stays I WILL be using it, and probably a lot. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1133
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 10:37:00 -
[1034] - Quote
I agree that the AB bonus might be OP at its current magnitude. But it's an interesting bonus that gives the ship a specific ability, worthy of a pirate faction ship. One of the problems with current Sansha and Guristas ships is that they're simply generic gank and tank ship, lacking the special abilities of superior factions, such as the mobility of Angels, the neuts and webs of Blood Raiders and Serpentis. Although the proposed Worm looks powerful, I'm still worried that it lacks the special something.
Sansha doesn't, the AB bonus breaks Sansha out of that hole. Lore is nice and all, so just rewrite it. Blah blah blah... repeated failures of Sansha Incursions blah blah broke the strength of the Sansha fleet blah blah forced a change in tactics to faster more survivable ships blah. There you go. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 10:59:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Lore is nice and all, so just rewrite it. Blah blah blah... repeated failures of Sansha Incursions blah blah broke the strength of the Sansha fleet blah blah forced a change in tactics to faster more survivable ships blah. There you go. .
Heh. But why not simply make a stand out fleet ship using the existing lore, much easier than rewriting the lore completely. The afterburner bonus is good, so save it for a faction where it makes a lot of sense such as blood raiders or something similar.
If the lore was altered as much as ship and module stats are altered these days then Eve might as well not bother having any lore at all. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 11:03:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:After a lot of trial and error, and some help, I learned how to edit the pyfa database files. Now I feel I can give a proper proposal for Sansha ship with more than just mental number crunching. Quote:1. Leave all bonuses the same. (The nightmare and Succubus could use a little more DPS but its not necessary.)
2. Move the two utility highs to one mid and one low. (This gives all 3 ships what they desperately need, more room to do their job while balancing tank, gank, and cap.)
3. Reduce the cap amount on the Phantasm and the Nightmare by 25%. (The Succubus doesnGÇÖt need this handicap, the Phantasm and the Nightmare can take this reduction for the extra slots they gain.)
4. Reduce the cargo hold on all 3 ships by 30%, 50%, and 50% respectively. (This cuts down on cap boosters for ASBs and normal boosters, forcing the ships to seek fleet assistance.)
5. Remove all drone bandwidth and drone bays from the ships that have. (Helps force the ships to seek fleet assistance.)
6. CPU needs to be reduced on the Phantasm and Nightmare by 15-20% and 20-25% respectively. Power Grid needs to be reduced on the Phantasm and Nightmare by 0-5% and 5-10% respectively. (After the removal of the 2 utility highs there is too much CPU and Power Grid left over.)
What this does is create a line of ships that tend to have tanks and dps levels that approach the ship class above it. In the case of the Nightmare, it is on-par with its other pirate Battleships because it can perform slightly better than them without any of their unique utility. I feel that this makes the ships not only distinctly Sansha but also makes them compelling as a ship. An interesting proposal which I could support, although it seems a little lacklustre on paper, although like you say you have tested it out on Pyfa, and I don't have time to edit the database myself, so will take your word for it.
Personally I do like at least one additional high utility slot as it gives many more fitting options and more utility to the ship as the name implies, particularly on the frigate and cruiser. Although I can see why you have removed it in keeping with the theme of laser focused pure fleet ships. Also remember that the Sansha ships are already down one slot compared to other ships of their class, so there is room to add a completely new one.
I would suggest bumping up the damage bonus from 150% to 175%. As of now Serpentis already have a 200% bonus, and they also have an excellent Ewar ability. Heavy shields are good and all, but seeing as you are basing a theme around a pure focus on a super powered fleet ship, the damage dealing ability needs to reflect that. With the current trend of tiericide increasing the power of all ships, the pirate ships could get left behind. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
655
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 14:37:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So 51 pages in... what'd I miss? Yay or nay, or are we pegging our hopes on the second iteration?
i certainly am
Blood - neut/nos range bonus for synergy, a little more tank
Angels - needs sharper focus, stronger shield tank . nerf armour, remove drones/launchers, nerf speed , buff damage projection of turrets -maybe add a mwd sig reduction bonus
serpentis - 90% webs are OP .. nerf base T2 web strength too 45% is the best solution, more tank, DD should have drams drones
sansha - more base speed, better cap , oversized prop mods need too go
Gurista - ... -1 slot as per drone ships normally have .. so -1 high .. utility slot isn't that useful anyway - change the gallente bonus too drone damage bonus and leave drone HP too role bonus .. that way you can buff the drone tank without making drone damage too OP/ dominant over missile damage - role bonus should be the missile damage - stronger damage split between drones/missiles Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1319
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 16:46:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So 51 pages in... what'd I miss? Yay or nay, or are we pegging our hopes on the second iteration?
Ever heard of the concept of weekend? And that ALl the deves involved in this thread are currently in New Eden Open covarage?
GEta rgip... this till take tiem to hit server and we are unlikely to see changes on the proposal before end of the week. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1319
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 16:47:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:So 51 pages in... what'd I miss? Yay or nay, or are we pegging our hopes on the second iteration? i certainly am Blood - neut/nos range bonus for synergy, a little more tank Angels - needs sharper focus, stronger shield tank . nerf armour, remove drones/launchers, nerf speed , buff damage projection of turrets -maybe add a mwd sig reduction bonus serpentis - 90% webs are OP .. nerf base T2 web strength too 45% is the best solution, more tank, DD should have drams drones sansha - more base speed, better cap , oversized prop mods need too go Gurista - ... -1 slot as per drone ships normally have .. so -1 high .. utility slot isn't that useful anyway - change the gallente bonus too drone damage bonus and leave drone HP too role bonus .. that way you can buff the drone tank without making drone damage too OP/ dominant over missile damage - role bonus should be the missile damage - stronger damage split between drones/missiles
Stop and think a bit. NErfign the normal webs as you propose would but blasters BACK into stone age and make missiles even weaker.
Think a bit moreon the effect of your proposals.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
655
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 17:11:00 -
[1040] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Harvey James wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:So 51 pages in... what'd I miss? Yay or nay, or are we pegging our hopes on the second iteration? i certainly am Blood - neut/nos range bonus for synergy, a little more tank Angels - needs sharper focus, stronger shield tank . nerf armour, remove drones/launchers, nerf speed , buff damage projection of turrets -maybe add a mwd sig reduction bonus serpentis - 90% webs are OP .. nerf base T2 web strength too 45% is the best solution, more tank, DD should have drams drones sansha - more base speed, better cap , oversized prop mods need too go Gurista - ... -1 slot as per drone ships normally have .. so -1 high .. utility slot isn't that useful anyway - change the gallente bonus too drone damage bonus and leave drone HP too role bonus .. that way you can buff the drone tank without making drone damage too OP/ dominant over missile damage - role bonus should be the missile damage - stronger damage split between drones/missiles Stop and think a bit. NErfign the normal webs as you propose would but blasters BACK into stone age and make missiles even weaker. Think a bit moreon the effect of your proposals.
losing 15% on T2 webs isn't that HUGE a difference to render blasters useless and missiles are a different issue anyway .. they need the TE/TC/TD change ..... but other than neuts all e-war base stats are usually much weaker than on a bonused ship .. the fact that 60% webs are very effective on an unbonused ship tells you just how OP webs are atm... the change would also make serpentis ships much more useful at 67.5% - 45% webs on other unbonused ships Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
294
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 17:50:00 -
[1041] - Quote
The web range bonus on cruor doesn't make sense considering it will have to be really close to use the neut/nos. It should have a range bonus to those as well then. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
474
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 18:40:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:
There are many valid complaints. For instance the a Gallente skill giving a missile bonus.... If you can't see how that is wrong then you need to stay away from balance.
This is not a valid complaint given the hull it's on.
Remember that the Gallente did not collaborate with the Guristas to construct their ship line. The Guristas took Caldari ships, and revamped them. Who knows- maybe the handwaving for a Gallente skill giving a missile bonus is that they've incorporated systems that ordinarily augment hybrid turret damage into the missile bays (with modifications obviously), showing pirate ingenuity or somesuch?
I do not want the bonuses on the Worm to change just yet, and even moreso because someone thought that a bonus' origin "didn't fit with the lore", rather than "makes it OP as balls". Maybe the Nemesis was involved. Who knows. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 19:01:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: Blood - neut/nos range bonus for synergy, a little more tank
Sentinel can't have two ships that do exactly the same
Harvey James wrote: Angels - needs sharper focus, stronger shield tank . nerf armour, remove drones/launchers, nerf speed , buff damage projection of turrets -maybe add a mwd sig reduction bonus
the dram should probably get some minor buffs but the other two are just fine right now
Harvey James wrote: serpentis - 90% webs are OP .. nerf base T2 web strength too 45% is the best solution, more tank, DD should have drams drones
I would love to have this web nerf on sisi for a month Id imagine nano ships would be too much fun to fly LOL
Harvey James wrote: sansha - more base speed, better cap , oversized prop mods need too go
the nightmare is one of the slowest ships in the game it totally needs a speed buff the phantasm too but the succubus as in the OP is just fine I think better cap they also need the two bigger ones just eat cap boosters like its candy oversized mods are all over eve and I think are a good game mechanic just imagine if tank mods where restricted how boring that would be
Harvey James wrote: Gurista - ... -1 slot as per drone ships normally have .. so -1 high .. utility slot isn't that useful anyway - change the gallente bonus too drone damage bonus and leave drone HP too role bonus .. that way you can buff the drone tank without making drone damage too OP/ dominant over missile damage - role bonus should be the missile damage - stronger damage split between drones/missiles
yeah all drone ships have it so Gusrista's should too yeah thats a good idea one should need to have gal frigate 5 to get the full damage bonus(gallente are no missile race either) while not hurting noobs too much the missile bonus is pointless imo those 50dps I happily trade for more tank or neuts every time Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
475
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 19:15:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Harvey James wrote: Gurista - ... -1 slot as per drone ships normally have .. so -1 high .. utility slot isn't that useful anyway - change the gallente bonus too drone damage bonus and leave drone HP too role bonus .. that way you can buff the drone tank without making drone damage too OP/ dominant over missile damage - role bonus should be the missile damage - stronger damage split between drones/missiles
yeah all drone ships have it so Gusrista's should tooyeah thats a good idea one should need to have gal frigate 5 to get the full damage bonus(gallente are no missile race either) while not hurting noobs too much the missile bonus is pointless imo those 50dps I happily trade for more tank or neuts every time
Bold Point 1: This is a garbage generalization applied mainly to T1 and T2 ships which I've just made a post about, and how pirate faction ships interact with them in terms of improvement. If Pirate faction ships are to be superior I see no better way to do that than to unlink them with the horrible malus of -1 arbitrary slot. (Though if you'll look at my previous post, I do think the third high should become a mid if anything does happen to it.)
Bold Point 2: I have done math. You are no longer doing a piddly 50DPS with missiles. Your two launchers are doing ~91 DPS. This is superior to the Punisher. That's without a BCS, too. If you slap on a BCS, you're doing 103. While your drones do ~111. The missiles on the new Worm are not useless- not by a long shot. You know how the Bellicose is a bit of a missiles/drones blend? Yeah. The Guristas ships are going to be kind of like that, with the balance tipped slightly more in favour of drones than missiles. Step out of the past, and look at the new ship without bias towards it's lackluster first iteration.
And for the love of ****stop trying to justify the removal of the missile bonus with "HURR DURR GALLENTE DONT INTO MISSILE U STUPID IF U THIKN THEY DO". This is a Gurista frigate. At least come up with a better argument than "but gallente don't use missiles". |
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
328
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 19:24:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:After a lot of trial and error, and some help, I learned how to edit the pyfa database files. Now I feel I can give a proper proposal for Sansha ship with more than just mental number crunching. Quote:1. Leave all bonuses the same. (The nightmare and Succubus could use a little more DPS but its not necessary.)
2. Move the two utility highs to one mid and one low. (This gives all 3 ships what they desperately need, more room to do their job while balancing tank, gank, and cap.)
3. Reduce the cap amount on the Phantasm and the Nightmare by 25%. (The Succubus doesnGÇÖt need this handicap, the Phantasm and the Nightmare can take this reduction for the extra slots they gain.)
4. Reduce the cargo hold on all 3 ships by 30%, 50%, and 50% respectively. (This cuts down on cap boosters for ASBs and normal boosters, forcing the ships to seek fleet assistance.)
5. Remove all drone bandwidth and drone bays from the ships that have. (Helps force the ships to seek fleet assistance.)
6. CPU needs to be reduced on the Phantasm and Nightmare by 15-20% and 20-25% respectively. Power Grid needs to be reduced on the Phantasm and Nightmare by 0-5% and 5-10% respectively. (After the removal of the 2 utility highs there is too much CPU and Power Grid left over.)
What this does is create a line of ships that tend to have tanks and dps levels that approach the ship class above it. In the case of the Nightmare, it is on-par with its other pirate Battleships because it can perform slightly better than them without any of their unique utility. I feel that this makes the ships not only distinctly Sansha but also makes them compelling as a ship. For those who want to check my numbers and would like to test my proposed changes eve.db^This is the edited Database I've been playing with. Only the slot layout and ?maybe? the 25% cap reduction changes are implemented. To install it just replace the eve.db file in the staticdata folder where you pyfa is located. Be sure to back up your old one.And for those moaning about the Cruor. The web range bonus is awesome for small gangs. If it stays I WILL be using it, and probably a lot.
I feel as though what makes pirate faction ships great is that they have bonuses which generally synergize well with fleets (web bonuses, neut bonuses, resist bonuses, etc) but also make them formidable enough in small squads. These suggested changes look pretty solid, though I would point out that the drone nerf seems pretty heavy-handed. There's not a single battleship that lacks a drone bay, so I'd say give the Nightmare at least a 50m3 drone bay and 25 MB bandwidth so it can at least field a flight of lights a time.
The slot layout changes I completely agree with, and it seems like having too many utility hislots makes the Sansha ships sort of compete with the Blood Raider ships as laser-neuting platforms. The cap reductions are fine considering the addition of more mids and lows which can support the cap use.
I do like the AB bonuses on the the Succubus and Phantasm though, it just feels out of place on the Nightmare.
I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.
Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 21:04:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Aglais wrote: And for the love of ****stop trying to justify the removal of the missile bonus with "HURR DURR GALLENTE DONT INTO MISSILE U STUPID IF U THIKN THEY DO". This is a Gurista frigate. At least come up with a better argument than "but gallente don't use missiles".
Fine, how about justifying it with the fact that it would be the only time in the entire game that a Gallente skill is used to buff missiles. The ship uses Caldari skills, so the missiles could more sensibly be attached to that. Or it could just stay with a flat hull bonus like it uses currently. If the ship was just going to rely on Gallente skills, then I guess using Gallente skills to bonus missiles would be the only option. But it isn't. And everyone is questioning it because it just looks like it is put on as an after thought without any consideration for how the skill is used in a broader sense.
Or, even better, we could realize like we did with past ship balancing that split weapons are not optimal, and use the Gallente skill to boost drones like usual, and forget boosting missiles in favor of some other non damage bonus to give the ship more utility than dumping out a bunch of damage.
Even with the current weird drone bonus and the completely bizarre Gallente missile bonus, the Worm will easily be out classed by most Assault Frigates. They will do as much damage, and as fast or faster, and the T2 resists will come pretty close to what the Worm's Caldari shield resists provide.
If the Worm is meant to be a slow but tanky brawler, 5 lights with the usual Gallente 10%/level damage bonus and a couple DDA's is enough. The hull bonus should be something like a scram bonus to keep faster ships from just running away.
And if CCP is dead set on going to the few-but-powerful drone scheme, at least use the Gallente bonus to give the drones better velocity/tracking/range. Those are the bonuses that make the other Gallente drone boats so awesome now. The raw damage bonus doesn't mean much if it takes the drones forever to reach the target or can't track it. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
94
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 21:22:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:So Sansha being the best speed tanking ships in the Eve universe doesn't seem out of place to you at all?
There are many valid complaints. For instance the a Gallente skill giving a missile bonus.... If you can't see how that is wrong then you need to stay away from balance.
Although it is not just that some of the bonuses are in direct contrast to the overarching concepts which exist within the game, there are also fitting and practical problems which I am aware of with the Succubus and Cruor.
As mentioned many times before, an afterburner bonus means that an afterburner is going to be a necessity on a ship which is renown for shield tanking. That means we are forced to drop a shield mod, and if we want to fit a MWD, then now we can't do that either unless we want to dual prop. Removing fitting options in a sand box is never desirable.
On top of that, we are also forced to reduce the shield further if we want to actually make use of the afterburner bonus as the more shield mods and rigs we fit, the more we lose in our speed tanking ability. The Sansha ships will just become a confused mess in terms of fitting, not to mention in terms of the lore.
I'll leave the Cruor to other people, although that would much better suit an afterburner bonus. Against small targets it may have some tracking problems, but at least it will allow it to get into range and stay there to nuet the target down. Personally though I prefer the 90% webs.
1. Sansha getting better performance out of any piece of tech makes perfect sense.
2. Besides the obvious fact that the Gallente played no role in designing the Worm, you are also ignoring that the bonus is for Therm missiles(Gal flavored) and that the Lachesis(Gal) has a missile bonus. So even by your asinine rules it works.
3. You seem to be implying that you can currently fit a succubus without a prop or that afterwards some people might dual prop it. Neither of those makes a lick of sense. Maybe you should not tell others what business they have in balance debates.
4. To make full use of the AB bonus and frigs naturally small sig means you either armor tank or active shield tank. When fighting cruisers and up you can still use a MSE just fine.
5. You don't think a super AB, Super nuet/nos, armor/sig tank Cruor would be just a little OP? |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 22:38:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Aglais wrote:
Bold Point 1: This is a garbage generalization applied mainly to T1 and T2 ships which I've just made a post about, and how pirate faction ships interact with them in terms of improvement. If Pirate faction ships are to be superior I see no better way to do that than to unlink them with the horrible malus of -1 arbitrary slot. (Though if you'll look at my previous post, I do think the third high should become a mid if anything does happen to it.)
sure make it better then the ishkur letting it have that slot as a high slot would not make much of a difference true as a mid slot however it might be a bit much tank
Aglais wrote: Bold Point 2: I have done math. You are no longer doing a piddly 50DPS with missiles. Your two launchers are doing ~91 DPS. This is superior to the Punisher. That's without a BCS, too. If you slap on a BCS, you're doing 103. While your drones do ~111. The missiles on the new Worm are not useless- not by a long shot. You know how the Bellicose is a bit of a missiles/drones blend? Yeah. The Guristas ships are going to be kind of like that, with the balance tipped slightly more in favour of drones than missiles. Step out of the past, and look at the new ship without bias towards it's lackluster first iteration.
I would love to see that math laid out in eft and in game a hookbill with 2 launchers shooting rage nova rockets (10% bonus per level) no damage mods or implants (all5 skills for eft) I get 67 and 62,8dps(skills are not perfect) and a punisher with 3 gatling pulse laser II using conflag does 109dps(again no damage mods) 72 with 2 guns if you meant that
Aglais wrote: And for the love of ****stop trying to justify the removal of the missile bonus with "HURR DURR GALLENTE DONT INTO MISSILE U STUPID IF U THIKN THEY DO". This is a Gurista frigate. At least come up with a better argument than "but gallente don't use missiles".
don't put words in my mouth, thanks Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1852
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 22:55:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Please stop using that outdated chart. It's offensive to factual discussion and more than slightly misleading. This is the correct chart to use. |
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security
79
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:04:00 -
[1050] - Quote
After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head.
Ghost Hunter wrote: the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:12:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:1. Sansha getting better performance out of any piece of tech makes perfect sense.
Nope, incorrect. If that was the case then following your logic we could start putting bonuses for everything in Sansha ship, pretty much anything goes then.
Lucine Delacourt wrote:2. Besides the obvious fact that the Gallente played no role in designing the Worm, you are also ignoring that the bonus is for Therm missiles(Gal flavored) and that the Lachesis(Gal) has a missile bonus. So even by your asinine rules it works.
Gallente engineers have little reason to be giving Kinetic missile damage bonuses, you fail to mention that part. Give the drone bonus as the Gallente skill bonus, and then use the role bonus for the missile damage bonus. Simple and easy fix that makes sense.
Lucine Delacourt wrote:3. You seem to be implying that you can currently fit a succubus without a prop or that afterwards some people might dual prop it. Neither of those makes a lick of sense. Maybe you should not tell others what business they have in balance debates.
Incorrect again. You shouldn't try to assume things. Read back and you will see I was talking about the whole line of the Sansha ships, not simply the Succubus.
Lucine Delacourt wrote:4. To make full use of the AB bonus and frigs naturally small sig means you either armor tank or active shield tank. When fighting cruisers and up you can still use a MSE just fine.
And that still doesn't negate any of the points which I made regarding the lack of synergy between the bonus and the hull.
Lucine Delacourt wrote:5. You don't think a super AB, Super nuet/nos, armor/sig tank Cruor would be just a little OP?
One thing for certain is that it actually makes some sense. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:16:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head. Ghost Hunter wrote: the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used as a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades
Very true. I'd like Sansha to stick to this theme also. Which is why I favour a damage buff and shield buff instead of an AB bonus. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:45:00 -
[1053] - Quote
I won't bother with quotes this time. You are captain straw man. I will make sure to be more clear this time.
1. Sansha should not get every bonus but a lore justification can be made for almost any bonus. That being said lore comes second in ship balancing.
2. They already stated why they won't switch the drone bonus to the Gallente skill. Frankly it shouldn't matter where the bonuses are placed as long as the ship has the right overall bonuses.
3. You wrote that having an AB bonus demands that an AB be fit. You stated this is bad because it takes up a mid-slot that could be used for shield tanking. This is a bad argument. Very Bad.
4. The claimed lack of synergy on the hull was already addressed and you chose to ignore it.
5. We agreed here. |
Naomi Anthar
304
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:47:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Onslaughtor wrote:After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head. Ghost Hunter wrote: the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used as a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades
Very true. I'd like Sansha to stick to this theme also. Which is why I favour a damage buff and shield buff instead of an AB bonus.
Do you want to win award for most "uncreative" person on forums ?
What you want succubus to have ? Shield res per level + role damage + tracking ? yeah delete this ship already then. I want something extraordinary, unique - not another bastard child of merlin and punisher.
Give this idea a chance. Dude it's not like world gonna end because succubus got ab bonus.
At the end of the day game did really gain in depth, new bonus on frigates - may change solo and gang pvp meta.
Don't kill this game with your ideas please.
Does not feel like sansha ? How is that ? So sansha ship designers couldn't get with something beyond caldari and amarr boundaries ? What about incursions do you even know how they work ? How they get created ? Because Sansha is really super advanced faction capable of doing extraordinary things like creating wh's to travel where they want. Wouldn't be surprised if they could pimp thier ships a bit.
And how is speed bonus coward , non sansha as some people say ? I would say opposite - they use speed to catch those that run from them, not the other way. It does not have optimal range bonus, so i assume speed is there so you can keep opponent pinned down , not the other way.
And stop with this caldari/amarr bullshit or minmatar/gallente etc. It's just for training. It's known that Sansha for example got people from all 4 main factions in it.
Yes my dear friends minnies and gallente are there aswell.
So yeah i see NO REASON why succubus cannot be good and unique ship after many years of being terribad ship inferior to t1 base frigs.
GJ CCP - you made this ship interesting and hopefully powerful as it should be (yet to be seen on test servers, live). I know you value feedback. But feedback like "it's caldari so it must have 4% shield resist so i can run my missions / incursions better" - yeah you can ignore it for greater good of game. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:58:00 -
[1055] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:After discussing this with Ghost Hunter (CEO of the biggest Sansha RP corp). I feel he hit the purpose of the Sansha hulls on the head. Ghost Hunter wrote: the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used as a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades
Thinking again, the analysis which Ghost Hunter makes is spot on, and I was thinking of ways in which this could be made to work.
With that in mind, perhaps the succubus could be given 3 turrets, therefore giving an effective damage of just under that of a destroyer.
The Phantasm could have it's one high utiltiy slot added to a mid slot along with another extra mid slot added for that which was missing. This would provide both extra shield capacity allowing it to survive while its opponent is held in place, whilst also allowing the fitting of the mid slot modules necessary for that task.
I think a shield resistance bonus would synergise well with all the ships, allowing the frigate to active shield tank, and the phantasm to survive whilst it pins its enemy with either an active or buffer shield tank.
Once again I think Ghost Hunter's analysis is spot on, and think that it would be a very good concept from which to direct the balance of the ships. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 00:10:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:What you want succubus to have ? Shield res per level + role damage + tracking ? Something which sticks to the current theme would be nice.
I think this sums up Sansha ships perfectly, and for anyone who flies them then it would ring true.
Ghost Hunter wrote: the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used as a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades
Naomi Anthar wrote:GJ CCP - you made this ship interesting and hopefully powerful as it should be (yet to be seen on test servers, live).I know you value feedback. But feedback like "it's caldari so it must have 4% shield resist so i can run my missions / incursions better" - yeah you can ignore it for greater good of game. As I stated before in this thread, I do not run Incursions and never have. I know you can earn great isk from them, but I already have better methods for that. Also as I said, any shield bonus should come with a base shield nerf for the Nightmare. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 01:09:00 -
[1057] - Quote
I agree with ghost hunter that the sansha ships should sorta be one class above in terms of overall stats but I think a generic resist bonus is just boring shield HP bonus on the other hand is used very litle and could be a more creative option maybe even an ALL HP bonus to make it a bit more unique or even all hp and repair/boost per level for even more flexibility Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1855
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 01:29:00 -
[1058] - Quote
I don't see why people are so against Sansha having an AB bonus. It fits perfectly. Have you seen the Incursion trailers? Have you been paying attention ingame? Sansha are marauding everywhere. They're marauding to the left, marauding to the right and marauding in the center. Marauding means speed, people. Speed in, speed out, lots of crazy chaos and damage (and in Sansha's case, slave abduction) in the middle.
Sansha ships are fast. In the trailers they're fast. In the Incursion battles they're fast. NPC Sansha rats are fast and their lasers hit hard (at least the incursion-zone ones are like this). They're sort of everything that Amarr isn't.
Amarr: Slow armor laserboats with bad tracking Blood: Vampiric tackle-ambushes that can snare you from an AU away Sansha: Fast shieldy laserboats with good tracking |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 01:43:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I don't see why people are so against Sansha having an AB bonus. It fits perfectly. Have you seen the Incursion trailers? Have you been paying attention ingame? Sansha are marauding everywhere. They're marauding to the left, marauding to the right and marauding in the center. Marauding means speed, people. Speed in, speed out, lots of crazy chaos and damage (and in Sansha's case, slave abduction) in the middle.
Sansha ships are fast. In the trailers they're fast. In the Incursion battles they're fast. NPC Sansha rats are fast and their lasers hit hard (at least the incursion-zone ones are like this). They're sort of everything that Amarr isn't.
Amarr: Slow armor laserboats with bad tracking Blood: Vampiric tackle-ambushes that can snare you from an AU away Sansha: Fast shieldy laserboats with good tracking
its just that it feels more like a minmatar style bonus also I feel that the only BS that would benefit from that bonus would be the Bhaalgorn in a cap fight not even another BS shooting at it would have trouble hitting it even if it was going 1500ms with an AB at wich point it would be able to kite BC and with snakes and links would go like 3.5k so....that would be too fast Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1856
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 01:58:00 -
[1060] - Quote
A battleship.. going 1500m/s on an AB.. what?
I don't-
...what? |
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 02:14:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:A battleship.. going 1500m/s on an AB.. what?
I don't-
...what?
exactly, it might just be possible with snakes links and quafe + zors implant but thats still just fine within you normal BC speed a hac webing you will just get you killed Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 02:58:00 -
[1062] - Quote
some playing around with eve hq adding a 20% per level ab bonus to the nightmare and going full speed fit with overdrives and gist X AB fleet boots implants etc it gets up to 1347m/s or 1914m/s with heat with a more reasonable 2 nanos its 1148m/s or 1631m/s with heat, just two webs bring it back down to 219m/s though Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
107
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 03:36:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Sansha style is hit and run. I've always seen the resist bonus as a reflection of their advanced technology rather than as an indication of their tactics. AB Bonus is fine, its new and it opens up interesting fittings for the succubus (and for the Phantasma and Nightmare too depending on how their base speed/agility stats are adjusted). |
Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
340
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 08:27:00 -
[1064] - Quote
although there is always a way to justify a radical change in lore, I think it should only be done when there are no other options or when is serves a story or event purpose.
In my humble opinion this is not the case concerning the Shansa.
yes it's a nice bonus, it will probably work in certain situations.
but it's out of place, there are more options that will show a better Anmar Caldari connection, it would be so nice that the faction with the least pirate ships has actualy something to contribute to those ships aside from needing the skill.
there are 6 pirate factions at the moment, 3 needing Minmatar and Anmar 4 needing Gallente and 2 needing Caldari and that Caldari link in Shansa is all but non exsitant.
Give the Sansha their Caldari face or remove the Caldari skill from the Sansha line, if you can find a explanation in lore to put that AB in you could find a way to change the skill needed as well.
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1137
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 11:36:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Well, the shield bit of Sansha is fairly Caldari-y... |
Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
340
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 11:39:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Well, the shield bit of Sansha is fairly Caldari-y...
In combination with that AB bonus I-¦d say it-¦s Minmatar :) |
Raine Marelwe
Republic University Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 12:17:00 -
[1067] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks
CCP Rise wrote:...I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow...
CCP Rise wrote:...tomorrow...
This was posted in February, with no apparent follow up to this day.
Try harder. Some of us don't like being allowed the false hope that the Gurista's hulls might not wind up as uninspired and schizophrenic as they currently look like they're going to. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
387
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 12:21:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote: there are 6 pirate factions at the moment, 3 needing Minmatar and Anmar 4 needing Gallente and 2 needing Caldari and that Caldari link in Shansa is all but non exsitant.
Give the Sansha their Caldari face or remove the Caldari skill from the Sansha line, if you can find a explanation in lore to put that AB in you could find a way to change the skill needed as well.
I fully expect the Caldari skill to feature heavily in future race implementations. For example:
Mordu's Legion:
Expecting this to be a missile based raced. Caldari will feature.
Would like them to be Missile Active Armour Tankers
If Mordu's Legion are shield focused then....
Khanid Nation: Amarr - Caldari link Active Armour and missiles
EoM (Equilibrium of Mankind):
Caldari - Amarr connection here I think (due to ship types and weapons/tanking)
Would love to see: Hybrid Optimal (Amarr Skill) Shield Boost Amount (Caldari Skill) Warp Disruptor / Scram range (Role Bonus)
Those are what I'd like to see in the future.
That and Pirate Destroyer Hulls that are EWAR based. |
Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
341
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 14:39:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Mike Whiite wrote: there are 6 pirate factions at the moment, 3 needing Minmatar and Anmar 4 needing Gallente and 2 needing Caldari and that Caldari link in Shansa is all but non exsitant.
Give the Sansha their Caldari face or remove the Caldari skill from the Sansha line, if you can find a explanation in lore to put that AB in you could find a way to change the skill needed as well.
I fully expect the Caldari skill to feature heavily in future race implementations.
You're getting me wrong, I'm not asking for more Pirate factions, Don't need to see a new Pirate faction unless it brings something new and usefull.
Aside of a Mordu's legion Caldari/Minmatar missile focused line maybe, because there is none at the moment.
what I tried to point out, is that with only two pirate line connected to the Caldari it shouldn't be to hard to find a more related bonus to that line, that is usefull as well.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 15:09:00 -
[1070] - Quote
so when is this thread being updated with a 4 lowslot webless tanky cruor and everything? |
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Naomi Anthar
307
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 15:43:00 -
[1071] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so when is this thread being updated with a 4 lowslot webless tanky cruor and everything?
Cruor that will not be able to nos or neut, because it will be not be able to dictate range. So it may end up like worse punisher ? And i though once you have idea about frigs and stuff. You disappoint me there. If Cruor must get slot somewhere , i'm afraid it must come from utility high ... Because even one bonused neut/nos will do some work. And if you need many neuts for gang you can always drop guns. No option for cruor is perfect given it got only 10 slots total. But removing mid is disaster. Unless it would get neut/nos range at same time. Still i don't like it.
I'm not concerned with roleplaying , but i think BR are more weby race than Serpentis. Lasers are just weapons as they must kill stuff. But they are WEBS + cap warfare all along.
They are "DISABLE" race. That shutdown opponent , that is why they got crappy damage as compensation.
What you are suggesting here is to make cruor a dragoon but much worse.
Honestly i'm perfectly fine with only one utility high as in succubus. Still with bonus it will do some work and another low can actually let it tank anything. Same with Ashimmu - 2 bonused medium neuts/nos still gonna hurt and 6th low would be really welcome. Would not change bhaal layout tho.
I don't like idea of BR revolving only around "neut & tank" theme - it would be just pimped geddons, dragoons etc.. They are combination of many interesting mechanics - they need to have thier own identity. I know it's hard to balance , but dropping web bonus for sure is not an answer.
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:19:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range.
and full laser dps and potentially a tank bonus, instead of neither of those things |
Naomi Anthar
308
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:28:00 -
[1073] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range.
and full laser dps and potentially a tank bonus, instead of neither of those things
You want cruors to die in flames in fights against condors ? (with long web it can "maybe" catch it if mwd fit) You want cruor to die against web/td slasher/firetail ? Because you won't be able to neut/nos it at scram range? Even now cruor can kill slasher, after such changes it will die to anything faster at scram range. (that is many ships) And if dedicated brawling ship cannot brawl , what is use for it ? I call scram kiting a some type of brawling since it is in scram/web range. No ship will engage cruor in face to face brawl , and those that will engage it - will be able to dictate range outside of magical 6300 range.
You are just trying to make cruor , punisher with bonused neuts. Not buying it. Because punisher is not that good ship in first place.
But i do agree that BR could use some tankyness - and i did suggest moving one utility high to low on cruor / ashimmu (gonna hurt neuting but no point of neuting if you cannot survive i agree) |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:31:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range.
and full laser dps and potentially a tank bonus, instead of neither of those things You want cruors to die in flames in fights against condors ? (with long web it can "maybe" catch it if mwd fit) You want cruor to die against web/td slasher/firetail ? Because you won't be able to neut/nos it at scram range? Even now cruor can kill slasher, after such changes it will die to anything faster at scram range. (that is many ships) And if dedicated brawling ship cannot brawl , what is use for it ? I call scram kiting a some type of brawling since it is in scram/web range. No ship will engage cruor in face to face brawl , and those that will engage it - will be able to dictate range outside of magical 6300 range. You are just trying to make cruor , punisher with bonused neuts. Not buying it. Because punisher is not that good ship in first place. But i do agree that BR could use some tankyness - and i did suggest moving one utility high to low on cruor / ashimmu (gonna hurt neuting but no point of neuting if you cannot survive i agree)
To be honest he just needs a lowslot and this nos change, keep the pgu and web as before.
look here http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=22029801#new i dont think that the 2 hobos and worst tracking from 60% web would have saved him |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:31:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range.
and full laser dps and potentially a tank bonus, instead of neither of those things You want cruors to die in flames in fights against condors ? (with long web it can "maybe" catch it if mwd fit) You want cruor to die against web/td slasher/firetail ? Because you won't be able to neut/nos it at scram range? Even now cruor can kill slasher, after such changes it will die to anything faster at scram range. (that is many ships) And if dedicated brawling ship cannot brawl , what is use for it ? I call scram kiting a some type of brawling since it is in scram/web range. No ship will engage cruor in face to face brawl , and those that will engage it - will be able to dictate range outside of magical 6300 range. You are just trying to make cruor , punisher with bonused neuts. Not buying it. Because punisher is not that good ship in first place. But i do agree that BR could use some tankyness - and i did suggest moving one utility high to low on cruor / ashimmu (gonna hurt neuting but no point of neuting if you cannot survive i agree)
punisher is trash because no range control. if you neut the **** out of everything, you have range control. it works. |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:34:00 -
[1076] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range.
and full laser dps and potentially a tank bonus, instead of neither of those things You want cruors to die in flames in fights against condors ? (with long web it can "maybe" catch it if mwd fit) You want cruor to die against web/td slasher/firetail ? Because you won't be able to neut/nos it at scram range? Even now cruor can kill slasher, after such changes it will die to anything faster at scram range. (that is many ships) And if dedicated brawling ship cannot brawl , what is use for it ? I call scram kiting a some type of brawling since it is in scram/web range. No ship will engage cruor in face to face brawl , and those that will engage it - will be able to dictate range outside of magical 6300 range. You are just trying to make cruor , punisher with bonused neuts. Not buying it. Because punisher is not that good ship in first place. But i do agree that BR could use some tankyness - and i did suggest moving one utility high to low on cruor / ashimmu (gonna hurt neuting but no point of neuting if you cannot survive i agree) punisher is trash because no range control. if you neut the **** out of everything, you have range control. it works. how the **** you wana neutanything with 60% web and 6km neut in a slow as frig ?
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:36:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Buckethead bot wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range.
and full laser dps and potentially a tank bonus, instead of neither of those things You want cruors to die in flames in fights against condors ? (with long web it can "maybe" catch it if mwd fit) You want cruor to die against web/td slasher/firetail ? Because you won't be able to neut/nos it at scram range? Even now cruor can kill slasher, after such changes it will die to anything faster at scram range. (that is many ships) And if dedicated brawling ship cannot brawl , what is use for it ? I call scram kiting a some type of brawling since it is in scram/web range. No ship will engage cruor in face to face brawl , and those that will engage it - will be able to dictate range outside of magical 6300 range. You are just trying to make cruor , punisher with bonused neuts. Not buying it. Because punisher is not that good ship in first place. But i do agree that BR could use some tankyness - and i did suggest moving one utility high to low on cruor / ashimmu (gonna hurt neuting but no point of neuting if you cannot survive i agree) punisher is trash because no range control. if you neut the **** out of everything, you have range control. it works. how the **** you wana neutanything with 60% web and 6km neut in a slow as frig ?
make it go fast
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Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:39:00 -
[1078] - Quote
i dont hink that they will make it go at any reasonable speed, since we have super fast drams and daredevils atm, + sucubus soon |
Naomi Anthar
309
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:40:00 -
[1079] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:
If you drop web, bhaal will be just geddon with paint scheme and effectivness on neuts instead of range.
and full laser dps and potentially a tank bonus, instead of neither of those things You want cruors to die in flames in fights against condors ? (with long web it can "maybe" catch it if mwd fit) You want cruor to die against web/td slasher/firetail ? Because you won't be able to neut/nos it at scram range? Even now cruor can kill slasher, after such changes it will die to anything faster at scram range. (that is many ships) And if dedicated brawling ship cannot brawl , what is use for it ? I call scram kiting a some type of brawling since it is in scram/web range. No ship will engage cruor in face to face brawl , and those that will engage it - will be able to dictate range outside of magical 6300 range. You are just trying to make cruor , punisher with bonused neuts. Not buying it. Because punisher is not that good ship in first place. But i do agree that BR could use some tankyness - and i did suggest moving one utility high to low on cruor / ashimmu (gonna hurt neuting but no point of neuting if you cannot survive i agree) punisher is trash because no range control. if you neut the **** out of everything, you have range control. it works.
Correct me but i fail to neut ships that are flying beyond 6300 in frigate/dessie. And if i don't have web on top of that i'm toasted. Especially if they fly with td aswell (many ships). The only exception for this rule is venerable dragoon - i know this as i use it very often. Because yeah you cannot scram range kite dragoon , oh no you cannot.
Sorry but i would see no reason to fly cruor over dragoon with your suggestions. More damage, more tank, BETTER neuts (because bonus to neuting on 6300 range neut ... is pointless if you cannot apply said neut), capless weapons. And on top of that much cheaper and less training intensive. Basically dragoon is really only one really viable ship with 2 mids that work somehow (some say slicer aswell). And there is reason for it - drones can deal damage far away and you cannot be kited at scram range. Your cruor won't deal damage far away , won't disable opponents tackle with short range neuts. Basically it would be trash tier below t1 base frigs.
Damn it would die rail incursus with web ... screw your idea, sorry man.
I cannot see what it would be able to kill ;p ? Punisher ;p ? What else ? Maybe rifter. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:41:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Buckethead bot wrote:i dont hink that they will make it go at any reasonable speed, since we have super fast drams and daredevils atm, + sucubus soon
it's minmatar, it's gotta go fast. also make deadspace neuts so tryhards can get more range. |
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Naomi Anthar
309
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:42:00 -
[1081] - Quote
"how the **** you wana neutanything with 60% web and 6km neut in a slow as frig ?"
Not only that - he suggested you don't even need the 60% web (hence 2 mids)... yes really.
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Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 16:50:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote: "how the **** you wana neutanything with 60% web and 6km neut in a slow as frig ?"
Not only that - he suggested you don't even need the 60% web (hence 2 mids)... yes really.
The solution would be to ad 25 bandwitch and a super nice bonus to web drones. Then he could even go with 2 mids and 4 lows. |
Naomi Anthar
310
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:15:00 -
[1083] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Buckethead bot wrote:i dont hink that they will make it go at any reasonable speed, since we have super fast drams and daredevils atm, + sucubus soon it's minmatar, it's gotta go fast. also make deadspace neuts so tryhards can get more range.
What about them "non tryhards" gonna do with webless slow frig with 6300 neut ? Die to 7kk slasher ? I still pay stupid money for cruor. I expect mindblowing performance not ****** disapointment.
I don't want to repeat myself again and again, but point out where your version of cruor gonna outshine dragoon. I don't want to be toxic etc. I try to have civilized conversation out there. But it's starting to be pretty sad pretty fast. Cruors going for 60-70kk , now even for more. And they would be just tier 0,5 dragoons.
As it is now - succubus gonna be hella unique and worthy high price tag. Daredevil aswell as always. Worm no doubt also. That only leaves cruor and dramiel in questionable situation. Let's be honest there is no need to nerf cruor even more TrouserDeagle. And that is what you are suggesting. I want to use it for solo pvp. I got cruors ready to roll out. But they will be sold if it would end up with 2 mids as you suggest. I think that web strenght bonus is absolutely op. But if Devs decided that it will stay ingame, then why daredevil must keep it and cruor cannot. I dare to say that cruor needs web strenght more than daredevil. BR ships , especially small ones like cruor need to able to control range in order to do anything - be it deal damage with lasers (tracking) or neut (short range on small ones). Raildevils would be still ok with web range ( i dare to say more than ok if you dont use faction stuff + links), blaster devils would suffer a bit , but still cool bonus since you can catch mwd / longpoint stuff. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:19:00 -
[1084] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Buckethead bot wrote:i dont hink that they will make it go at any reasonable speed, since we have super fast drams and daredevils atm, + sucubus soon it's minmatar, it's gotta go fast. also make deadspace neuts so tryhards can get more range. What about them "non tryhards" gonna do with webless slow frig with 6300 neut ? Die to 7kk slasher ? I still pay stupid money for cruor. I expect mindblowing performance not ****** disapointment. I don't want to repeat myself again and again, but point out where your version of cruor gonna outshine dragoon. I don't want to be toxic etc. I try to have civilized conversation out there. But it's starting to be pretty sad pretty fast. Cruors going for 60-70kk , now even for more. And they would be just tier 0,5 dragoons. As it is now - succubus gonna be hella unique and worthy high price tag. Daredevil aswell as always. Worm no doubt also. That only leaves cruor and dramiel in questionable situation. Let's be honest there is no need to nerf cruor even more TrouserDeagle. And that is what you are suggesting. I want to use it for solo pvp. I got cruors ready to roll out. But they will be sold if it would end up with 2 mids as you suggest. I think that web strenght bonus is absolutely op. But if Devs decided that it will stay ingame, then why daredevil must keep it and cruor cannot. I dare to say that cruor needs web strenght more than daredevil. BR ships , especially small ones like cruor need to able to control range in order to do anything - be it deal damage with lasers (tracking) or neut (short range on small ones). Raildevils would be still ok with web range ( i dare to say more than ok if you dont use faction stuff + links), blaster devils would suffer a bit , but still cool bonus since you can catch mwd / longpoint stuff.
load scorch you scrub, it's basically all lasers ever do. a better question is what are you going to do with a 3 lowslot cruor, other than die over and over again
and yeah, rail DD is grossly overpowered and should really be getting nerfed. |
Naomi Anthar
310
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:38:00 -
[1085] - Quote
load scorch you scrub, it's basically all lasers ever do. a better question is what are you going to do with a 3 lowslot cruor, other than die over and over again
and yeah, rail DD is grossly overpowered and should really be getting nerfed.[/quote]
Yeah i did load scorch against those TD slashers and RFFs or some lol TD breachers with armor tank. Did not work well. And how i'm supposed to keep anything from leaving if it sits outside of 6300 ? Ask politely in local ?
Should i say "please stay so i can kill you" ? Or you got some poems ready for such obvious situations.
And stating rail DD is op is obvious. But given fact it STAYS, you need to make other pirate frigs strong aswell.
For me unchanged DD is ... kinda signal from DEVS what kind of power they want to have on pirate ships. And if that is the case - rest pirate ships must be op.
TrourserDeagle , i cannot see why you did not comment on -1 utility high idea on frig and cruiser BR. (yeah i understand it reduces neut power by 50% on frig and 33,(3)% on cruiser - if they use guns aswell). But it gets something to actually live enough to do any job (damage or neuting).
Edit : i fail quote for some reason |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2034
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:42:00 -
[1086] - Quote
I can confirm that Trouser has no idea about how frigates work and should be completely ignored.
He is in no way shape or form one of the most prolific frig pvpers in Eve. Don't listen to his silly fabrications! BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Naomi Anthar
310
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:59:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I can confirm that Trouser has no idea about how frigates work and should be completely ignored.
He is in no way shape or form one of the most prolific frig pvpers in Eve. Don't listen to his silly fabrications!
And when someone said he has no idea ? Actually i did like many his previous posts. But here i can honestly say , he is wrong. I'm mathematician, got master degree at University. But i can still make mistake in equotations or even make logical mistake sometimes when it comes to math problems. We are just human beings. And we can make mistakes.
And just because he uses frigs for pvp doesn't make him only authority when it comes to frigate balance. I can say even more - there are many people why fly frigates and have some idea how they work. But what actually counts is logic behind ideas, and i did point out where his idea got flaws.
Actually pretty massive flaws , to the point where i think someone hacked his acc and posts some silly ideas as you said ;). |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:59:00 -
[1088] - Quote
<3 graveller
and yeah, you'll die to a scram kiting tracking disruptor frigate, but you end up with a much more usable ship most of the time. the currently proposed cruor will die even harder to these tracking disruptor scram kite frigates, because it has no tank (alternatively get some deadspace nos on there and warp out). |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2034
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 18:04:00 -
[1089] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I can confirm that Trouser has no idea about how frigates work and should be completely ignored.
He is in no way shape or form one of the most prolific frig pvpers in Eve. Don't listen to his silly fabrications! And when someone said he has no idea ? Actually i did like many his previous posts. But here i can honestly say , he is wrong. I'm mathematician, got master degree at University. But i can still make mistake in equotations or even make logical mistake sometimes when it comes to math problems. We are just human beings. And we can make mistakes. And just because he uses frigs for pvp doesn't make him only authority when it comes to frigate balance. I can say even more - there are many people why fly frigates and have some idea how they work. But what actually counts is logic behind ideas, and i did point out where his idea got flaws. Actually pretty massive flaws , to the point where i think someone hacked his acc and posts some silly ideas as you said ;).
I have no idea what he has been arguing about as i did not read the posts before that :P
So the idea is a 4 lowslots cruor with 2 mids? That could probably work with the right bonuses. The current slot layouts/bonuses just make it an irritating but overall bad ship. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
291
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 21:47:00 -
[1090] - Quote
please for the love of all that is good and holy remove that drone bay on the cruor and give it a damn 4th mid slot.
no neut range bonus to back up the web range bonus now means that the web is nearly useless on the cruor now. but you will still want to fit it because gotta use that bonus ya no?
so again here we go with ships that dont have points. cruor mids as follows, AB/injector/web
nobody will fit a scram to it when it will just cap itself out.
4th MID screw the crap drones |
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 21:48:00 -
[1091] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:please for the love of all that is good and holy remove that drone bay on the cruor and give it a damn 4th mid slot.
no neut range bonus to back up the web range bonus now means that the web is nearly useless on the cruor now. but you will still want to fit it because gotta use that bonus ya no?
so again here we go with ships that dont have points. cruor mids as follows, AB/injector/web
nobody will fit a scram to it when it will just cap itself out.
4th MID screw the crap drones
fit nos m8 |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:10:00 -
[1092] - Quote
I altered some of the files in EveHQ to see if I could create a Succubus with the them laid out by Ghost Hunter earlier in the forum. I came up with this proposal, although it may need some further tweaking, I tried as best as possible with the limited tools and information I have to balance all the base stats and bonuses against the other current versions of pirate ships.
(I emboldened the stats which have changed from Rise's proposal, and not the base version which is currently on Tranquility).
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M (+1), 2L (-1); 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 58 PWG (+14), 195 CPU (+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650 / 550 / 540 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450 / 210000 / 2.14 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290 (-50) / 3.5 / 965000 / 4.68s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 13 Signature radius: 35 (+2)
As mentioned earlier, Sansha ships border in terms of raw power on the ship class above them, and so in this case that would be the Destroyer.
Even with adding an extra turret slot, with one heat sink, the DPS of the ship is around 325, which is only just above that of the Dare Devil with one damage mod also.
The Dare Devil also gets a powerful web bonus and high speed, in contrast I think it would be nice to give the Succubus the potential for a very nice shield, whilst reducing the speed and increasing signature as befits a heavy shielded ship.
To achieve this I removed a low slot, as the ship already does good dps so only needs one damage mod, and then moved it to a mid slot. This allows the Succubus to approach 10k EHP with web, scram, and AB fitted, so very nice for a frigate. Base shield could require toning down a little.
I also increased CPU slightly, and left the powergrid at the original levels to make fitting the ship adequately possible.
The drawback to all this power, is a slower speed and higher signature.
Also when you get onto the Nightmare, the base shield would probably be reduced to compensate for the shield resistance hbonus. I will try and update a concept for those ships when I have more time to mess around with Eve HQ. I hope this is of interest. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 23:01:00 -
[1093] - Quote
You say your aren't trying to build a super Incursion Nightmare but every thing you suggets plays perfectly for one... The fact is that if the Nightmare becomes any slower it will never be used in PvP at any point. The speed makes it too vulnerable for solo/small gangs and the cost makes it too expensive to be a ship of the line. The Bhaalgorn has a niche, the Mach is a BC on roids, the Vindy has ultimate range control with 90% webs and the Rattler is cheap enough to catch occasional small gang PvP or hostile area PvE use. The current Nightmare and your proposed Nightmare have none of those things and will remain anchored in High Sec running incursions unless changed. |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 23:28:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:please for the love of all that is good and holy remove that drone bay on the cruor and give it a damn 4th mid slot.
no neut range bonus to back up the web range bonus now means that the web is nearly useless on the cruor now. but you will still want to fit it because gotta use that bonus ya no?
so again here we go with ships that dont have points. cruor mids as follows, AB/injector/web
nobody will fit a scram to it when it will just cap itself out.
4th MID screw the crap drones
EDIT: After reading all these pages of people complaining that the cruor needs a 4th low because its tanks sucks. CCP do not listen to this crap. As somebody who actually flys the cruor in fleet fights. With a 14k ehp tank WITHOUT slaves, is PLENTY.
The cruors only role to this date in fleet fights is to neut out enemy logi which it does nicely with 2 NEUTS 2. not 1, and a nos. with 2 neuts it has a place in fleet fights.
please give the cruor a 4th mid do not listen to these pvpers who think solo is still out their in a MMO. Use a sentinel for gang action for god sake |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
291
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 00:05:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Buckethead bot wrote: Use a sentinel for gang action for god sake
excellent point since the sentinel can indeed enter novice plex's thx for this advice will use in the future |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
368
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 00:50:00 -
[1096] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out. Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/ Thanks
So it's been a few days now. Looking forward to that post about the Worm and Cruor. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
|
Enya Sparhawk
State Protectorate Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 00:55:00 -
[1097] - Quote
I realize that you may already have your own plans for the Guristas' fleet, but let me throw this one idea out there...
I always liked the fact that they used drones, 5 of them...
It presented that idea of 'shoring up their numbers' against a bigger adversary (ie. faction navy). Drones are also expendable, so to a pirate who has to cut and run for what ever the reason, he/she wouldn't be crying over their loss.
It also offered versatility for their ships... Ewar, logistics as well as being able to fire bigger guns (sentries), it all depended on the fit or use as determined by the player... Drone bonuses (at least to me) are fine for what the ships are. If you wanted a dedicated drone ship, fly Gallente right?
I especially also liked the fact that they used missles...
Yet, they aren't quite missle ships, so having any sort of bonus for them makes Guristas ships sort of "odd"...
So my suggestion is simple, if you're going to push for a missle bonus, specialize the ship in one type (ie. guided missles.)
Special Ability: 50% bonus to Guided Missle Precision (previously 50% bonus to Missile velocity)
With one added difference:
Guristas Role bonus: Auto-Targeting Missles do not lock onto 'friendly' targets.
It adds a new dimension to gameplay, a slight measure of ECM resistance and that ability to 'quick draw' unique to a single pirate faction...
From a storyline point of view, it makes the most sense since a Gurista would have figured out how to best control their own missles better (just like a drone). Or at the least, combining a stripped down drone AI with a missle guidance system...
To carry it even further, you could eventually bring out tech 2 variants of auto-targeting missles that would offer more of a payload and an Auto-Targeting Missiles Specialization skill that could concievable offer a 2% bonus per level to the rate of fire on all Light, Heavy, Cruise, Rapid Light and Rapid Heavy Launchers only when equipped with 'auto-targeting missiles'...
Anyways, that was my two ISK on it... F+¡orghr+í: Gr+í na f+¡rinne D+¬an g+íire...Tiocfaidh +ír l+í |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 01:02:00 -
[1098] - Quote
FoF missiles, even if the AI was good will still be a down grade from regular missiles. They would be better than nothing when jammed but would supply inconsistant damage to any one target when not jammed. |
Dyniss
Burning Skies Apocalypse Now.
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 02:32:00 -
[1099] - Quote
Good job CCP completely destroying the Gurista line of pirate ships. Cutting them down to 2 drones deployed out at a time only really? What kind of stupid crap is that? Don't you realize those ships are used for logistical purposes as well as offensive ones? So what now we can only launch two drones? What good is that for when using them as logi ships? And even with a boost to HP a drone is still made out of glass since they HAVE ALMOST NO RESISTS WHATSOEVER! And don't forget two drones are easier to kill than five!
Also why kill off the missile velocity bonus on the Rattler? Don't you realize kinetic and thermal are some of the most highest resisted stats on most ships? Great job with that. So now we can forget about torpedo's on a Rattlesnake since the won't go very far, and their damage output of launchers will suck since you are shooting the wrong damage for the most part. Having the rainbow damage output was on of the biggest bonuses for a Rattlesnake and Gila.
I am just completely baffled by this nonsense! Two drones? How is that unique? Or interesting? Honesty if this crap is what you have planned for the Gurista pirate faction I feel the only thing you will succeed in doing is making a bunch of now very good ships completely worthless and unimaginative.
I feel you need to go back to the drawing board on this one. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
420
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 02:59:00 -
[1100] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:Good job CCP completely destroying the Gurista line of pirate ships. Cutting them down to 2 drones deployed out at a time only really? What kind of stupid crap is that? Don't you realize those ships are used for logistical purposes as well as offensive ones? So what now we can only launch two drones? What good is that for when using them as logi ships? And even with a boost to HP a drone is still made out of glass since they HAVE ALMOST NO RESISTS WHATSOEVER! And don't forget two drones are easier to kill than five!
Also why kill off the missile velocity bonus on the Rattler? Don't you realize kinetic and thermal are some of the most highest resisted stats on most ships? Great job with that. So now we can forget about torpedo's on a Rattlesnake since they won't go very far, and their damage output of launchers will suck since you are shooting the wrong damage for the most part. Having the rainbow damage output for the launchers was a very useful bonus for the Rattlesnake.
I am just completely baffled by this nonsense! Two drones? How is that unique? Or interesting? Honesty if this crap is what you have planned for the Gurista pirate faction I feel the only thing you will succeed in doing is making a bunch of now very good ships completely worthless and unimaginative.
I feel you need to go back to the drawing board on this one.
Gurista Superdrones will have a tad more raw HP than the Worm that launched them, with an equivalent boost in passive shield regen from their shields being 4 times thicker than normal, with the sig and speed of a light drone. They will be far more resistant to the usual drone counters (opposing drones, small guns, smartbombs) though with only two it becomes easier to use ewar against them. Its somewhat amusing to see various folks go ballistic about this depowering the Worm and others fearing it to be overpowered. Personally I think it opens up some tactical considerations not otherwise available, and at the very least the Gurista line will be good for PvE, though I know many of the board denizens hate the very concept.
While likely some things will carry through, nothing has been said about the Rattlesnake yet. There is far more bile and butthurt about what most of these changes will do to the larger classes than about what it actually means for the announcement being made. |
|
Dyniss
Burning Skies Apocalypse Now.
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 03:06:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Dyniss wrote:Good job CCP completely destroying the Gurista line of pirate ships. Cutting them down to 2 drones deployed out at a time only really? What kind of stupid crap is that? Don't you realize those ships are used for logistical purposes as well as offensive ones? So what now we can only launch two drones? What good is that for when using them as logi ships? And even with a boost to HP a drone is still made out of glass since they HAVE ALMOST NO RESISTS WHATSOEVER! And don't forget two drones are easier to kill than five!
Also why kill off the missile velocity bonus on the Rattler? Don't you realize kinetic and thermal are some of the most highest resisted stats on most ships? Great job with that. So now we can forget about torpedo's on a Rattlesnake since they won't go very far, and their damage output of launchers will suck since you are shooting the wrong damage for the most part. Having the rainbow damage output for the launchers was a very useful bonus for the Rattlesnake.
I am just completely baffled by this nonsense! Two drones? How is that unique? Or interesting? Honesty if this crap is what you have planned for the Gurista pirate faction I feel the only thing you will succeed in doing is making a bunch of now very good ships completely worthless and unimaginative.
I feel you need to go back to the drawing board on this one. Gurista Superdrones will have a tad more raw HP than the Worm that launched them, with an equivalent boost in passive shield regen from their shields being 4 times thicker than normal, with the sig and speed of a light drone. They will be far more resistant to the usual drone counters (opposing drones, small guns, smartbombs) though with only two it becomes easier to use ewar against them. Its somewhat amusing to see various folks go ballistic about this depowering the Worm and others fearing it to be overpowered. Personally I think it opens up some tactical considerations not otherwise available, and at the very least the Gurista line will be good for PvE, though I know many of the board denizens hate the very concept. While likely some things will carry through, nothing has been said about the Rattlesnake yet. There is far more bile and butthurt about what most of these changes will do to the larger classes than about what it actually means for the announcement being made.
Those ships also use 5 drones as logistical to as well as offensive. So unless CCP adds the bonus to logi drones (let's face it all drone types) then having two drones deployed is just stupid. Thicker raw HP means nothing when their resists suck. They will melt just as quick. Only lights will survive, and even then they will have such a low impact it doesn't matter. Why can't they do like some people are suggesting and spread the damage of the Gurista pirate faction ships over their two damage types? Missiles and drones. Buffing the missiles while nerfing the drone damage output a bit is much better than this proposed change. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 03:15:00 -
[1102] - Quote
The niche use you are describing is both small and already performed better by the Astero and Ishkur. As is, I just don't see that being signifigant enough to impact the Worm changes. |
I'm Down
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
232
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 03:37:00 -
[1103] - Quote
The problem with the Guristas bonuses.... especially with the larger ships later... is that it doesn't affect any type of drone other than damage.
It also wipes out a lot of the nerf to fleet assist with drones because it essentially allows someone to control up to 125 drones worth of firepower instead of the nerfed 50 all other ships will suffer from.
I think a more unique role for Guristas would be a 300% boost to all non-damage drones hp and effects since we currently don't have any ship in game that can do this. Then add a few extra missile slots and keep large drone bay, and hey, you got an interesting concept that relatively weak on damage, but strong on projected effects from drones like webs, neuts, etc. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 03:56:00 -
[1104] - Quote
They already said they don't want to give bonuses to EWAR drones until they have a chance to fix them.
As for the fleet assist issue, as long as they don't give the Rattler a bonus to sentries it shouldn't be an issue. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
722
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 07:02:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote: Gurista Superdrones will have a tad more raw HP than the Worm that launched them...
You know, there is a reason everyone who plays this game uses "EHP" instead of "HP"
The base Worm my have less raw HP then the drones it launches, but the Worm also has base resists, and Caldari shield resists, and it can fit shield extenders and shield rigs, shield boosters, etc.
The fewer but buffed drones is dumb because it is strictly limited to doing raw damage. The drones are no faster, have no better tracking, like we get on pretty much all the other drone boats. And it does not buff ecm or logi drones. It is horribly limited on anything that isn't being sold as a highly specialized Tech 2 hull.
They want the Worm to be an awesome drone using frigate? Give it the usual 5 drones, the 10%/level damage bonus of all the other serious drone boats, and give it a velocity and/or tracking bonus so it can actually catch and hit fast moving ships. Give it the full 25Mbit bandwidth so you can actually have the option of just dropping a sentry or using a full fight of light armor reppers. Give it a big enough bay to give it some flexibility.
Without the velocity, range, and tracking bonuses for drones, the Guristas line will still be outclassed by Gallente ships. And many of the Gallente ships effectively get a kinetic and thermal damage bonus through hybrids. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 09:28:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:You say your aren't trying to build a super Incursion Nightmare but every thing you suggets plays perfectly for one... The fact is that if the Nightmare becomes any slower it will never be used in PvP at any point. The speed makes it too vulnerable for solo/small gangs and the cost makes it too expensive to be a ship of the line. The Bhaalgorn has a niche, the Mach is a BC on roids, the Vindy has ultimate range control with 90% webs and the Rattler is cheap enough to catch occasional small gang PvP or hostile area PvE use. The current Nightmare and your proposed Nightmare have none of those things and will remain anchored in High Sec running incursions unless changed.
I don't see how giving a battleship an afterburner bonus will persuade anyone to use them more in PVP, I wouldn't even bother fitting an afterburner for pvp even with this bonus. For battleship pvp, you need an MWD or an MJD for any level of maneuverability.
Unless you are speed tanking dreads, then the low signature an afterburner gives you isn't that important against nearly every target you would face. I'm not saying an afterburner bonus is completely useless, in fact it is probably most useful ironically for PVE.
You are not being realistic if you think an afterburner bonus will be enough to sway vast swathes of people to suddenly start using their nightmares for pvp.
The current problem with the Nightmare is it is out performed by ships of a similar cost in all the areas it excels in. Keeping it's shield relatively unchanged ("by reducing it's base shield accordingly") and boosting its damage output to one of the highest out of any battleship is what would get it used in pvp, and not an out of place afterburner bonus. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3890
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 10:28:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Alright, I'm back from a busy weekend of birthday and New Eden Open (If you didn't watch I highly recommend you do!).
First, I wish this stuff was going to Sisi soon so you all could actually get your hands on it, but unfortunately that won't be for a while still. I posted it rather early so that I could get reactions to these themes before investing more work in the other two classes, which has paid off really well for me so thanks for that.
So by now it seems like the Cruor has won as the most contentious with the Worm and Succubus following close behind.
There's actually several reasons why the Cruor ended up like this and I feel pretty good about all of them. The most important is that it's difficult to push the bonuses in a different direction without finding a lot of overlap with other ship(s) and/or getting far too powerful. For instance, if we dropped webs entirely and gave it some kind of range bonus for cap-warfare it ends up competing heavily with the Sentinel or Dragoon AND is likely too powerful. The current layout is very unique and while the range synergy isn't perfect, that certainly doesn't mean the ship isn't useful for powerful. On top of that, a big goal in this pass was to unify the themes across the entire faction line. You will see more of that when I can post the threads for cruisers and battleships, but wanting a set of bonuses that translates well to all three classes is valuable and this Cruor set does that well.
Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful. That certainly doesn't mean you are required to fit missiles and seeing Worms with Neutralizers rather than missiles wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and I wanted to mention that the Worm missile bonus absolutely DOES affect rockets.
At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort :)
Again, thanks for the discussion, it's helped a lot with pinning down some details on these 5 ships as well as the cruisers and battleships, which you will hopefully get to see before too long.
Hope I answered at least some of your questions.
|
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1137
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 11:07:00 -
[1108] - Quote
Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. So as long as you review these frigates a few months after introduction, things should work out in the end. But please don't do what was done with the last pirate faction rebalance, where nothing was reviewed and the Dramiel and Worm were left hilariously imbalanced for years. |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
170
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 11:25:00 -
[1109] - Quote
I understand how the cruor is meant to be used (kite with webs until ready to close in to drain), I just doubt it works on larger ships if they end up getting the exact same bonuses. |
Andrei Vassaliev
U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 11:26:00 -
[1110] - Quote
Blood: There is a problem with the Blood ships changes concerning web range vs web effectiveness. A ship like the Ashimmu will have to go under 12Km range in order to apply Neut/NOS. This is in contradiction with the idea of a web range bonus imho. Maybe you will have to give this shipline a bonus on NOS range also, or stick with the web effectiveness bonus.
Serpentis: About Serpentis ships, the web effectiveness bonus is a unique shipline bonus and must be kept as it is. Otherwise, this ultra-close range shipline would be broken in some way. |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 11:46:00 -
[1111] - Quote
CCP Rise, how about looking again at Sansha, the afterburner bonus will be useless on at least one of their ships, and the Phantasm is now forced to use one completely changing the current playstyle for the worse in my opinion.
I've been impressed in the past by how you have altered ships for the better after listening to feedback, and so I have faith you will always get to a good solution.
I've been editing the EveHQ database and come up with some rough designs of my own for what I think would be a much better direction for Sansha. I compared the stats against other ships of equal class and although a rought draft, these would fit in well to the current meta.
Also I'd just like re quote this as it was on what I based the concept of the proposals below.
Ghost Hunter wrote:the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used as a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades Seeing as the Nightmare is the most contentious ship, I'll start by showing the rough concept for it which I have made.
Another turret slot is added bringing the ships damage very slightly over that of the current Vindicator, with pulses lasers matching blasters, and beam laser matching railguns.
Also another mid slot is added to make up for the missing slot, this also allows a greater shield capacity making the Nightmare one of the most survivable battleships if a full tank is fitted, base shield is lowered to make sure it will not be too powerful, although I was thinking perhaps to reduce it even further still.
Various base adjustments were made to the fitting and capacitor to allow reasonable fitting, although it will always be on a knife edge as should be the case.
Finally, speed is dropped and signature bumped up, to make this one of the slowest and largest signatured battleships, with MWD fitted it will go up to between 700 m/s and 800 m/s.
I predict it would perform very similar to a maurader, barring the fact that no bastion module can be fitted, and would become a powerhouse in pvp if you can work around its slow speed and agility.
NIGHTMARE
Amarr Battleship Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 7H, 8M (+1), 4L; 5 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 14800 PWG (+300), 740 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 9000 (-735) / 8000 (-695) / 7600 (-660) Capacitor (amount / recharge: 9800 (+2850) / 1025 (-130) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass ): 85 (-9) / 0.136 / 99300000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75 Signature radius: 420 (+20)
Also as posted previously, this is the matching concept for the Succubus.
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M (+1), 2L (-1); 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 58 PWG (+14), 195 CPU (+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650 / 550 / 540 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450 / 210000 / 2.14 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (-20) / 3.5 / 965000 / 4.68s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km (+2) / 650 / 6 (+1) Sensor strength: 16 (+3) Signature radius: 38 (+5)
Finally the phantasm, I did not have too much time to play around with altering the stats, but from experience I would simply suggest adding an extra mid slot which was missing, and keeping it's damage at its current respectable level. The extra mid slot will allow it to perform it's role of webbing and scramming the enemy whilst still being able to fit a respectable shield tank.
I think these proposals would put Sansha in a very good place. I am not 100% on the Nightmare still, I think it may need its stats reducing slightly further, but this is simply a rough draft. And I hope these proposals may be of interest. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:04:00 -
[1112] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I posted it rather early so that I could get reactions to these themes before investing more work in the other two classes, which has paid off really well for me so thanks for that. You say that posting the ship concepts early so you didn't have to invest time in a unpopular concept has paid of really well, I just wondered in what way? From your post it seems you weren't intending on changing anything in the original proposal based upon the feedback given unless I missed something.
2 ships concepts need a major change, and the Gurista's ships needs a slight change to the missile bonus, that was the feedback I've been hearing. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
321
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:05:00 -
[1113] - Quote
I like the idea for the Nightmare a lot- it'd make it a lot of fun to fly I'd love to have it as a ship more fitting a slow, heavy hitter role.
(Also, "large", not "Small" energy turrets :P) "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:08:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:(Also, "large", not "Small" energy turrets :P) Ah yes, good point. I missed that. Editing the post now. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
594
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:32:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:CCP Rise, how about looking again at Sansha, the afterburner bonus will be useless on at least one of their ships, and the Phantasm is now forced to use one completely changing the current playstyle for the worse in my opinion.
How do you know it will be useless? There are ways to make any of the three ships depend on speed and excel at it (case in point: Machariel). Yes, it's a drastic change of the current situation, but it's not unheard of. Laser boats in general have been gaining speed, so it's not completely unsurprising to see this either.
Quote:Another turret slot is added bringing the ships damage very slightly over that of the current Vindicator, with pulses lasers matching blasters, and beam laser matching railguns.
Also another mid slot is added to make up for the missing slot, this also allows a greater shield capacity making the Nightmare one of the most survivable battleships if a full tank is fitted, base shield is lowered to make sure it will not be too powerful, although I was thinking perhaps to reduce it even further still.
Various base adjustments were made to the fitting and capacitor to allow reasonable fitting, although it will always be on a knife edge as should be the case.
Finally, speed is dropped and signature bumped up, to make this one of the slowest and largest signatured battleships, with MWD fitted it will go up to between 700 m/s and 800 m/s.
I predict it would perform very similar to a maurader, barring the fact that no bastion module can be fitted, and would become a powerhouse in pvp if you can work around its slow speed and agility.
How popular are Rattlesnakes in pvp? Because that's essentially what you are proposing here, except for no drone selection and no spider tanking. |
Aurora Fatalis
Stillwater Corporation
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:44:00 -
[1116] - Quote
How about building the Guristas line for tinker tanks? They seem to be used that way quite a lot, after all, so why not let the Gallente bonus be a rep drone bonus, Oneiros-style? If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:49:00 -
[1117] - Quote
I'd argue that being a tankless 3 lowslot pile of poo actually does overlap with the EAFs, in that it's only good for blobbing soloers, or catching new players who don't know what the ship does.
"unify themes" this had better not mean the other serp ships will keep their ridiculous web bonuses
what happens in honourable frigate battles when someone decides to web and orbit one of the worm's drones at 500m, or tracking disrupt it? I don't like this 2 drone thing, it's dumb.
abusing links and being immune to damage and running away from everything with your silly afterburner actually is not aggressive, it's the opposite.
Gypsio III wrote:Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. So as long as you review these frigates a few months after introduction, things should work out in the end. But please don't do what was done with the last pirate faction rebalance, where nothing was reviewed and the Dramiel and Worm were left hilariously imbalanced for years.
I'm sure in a few months we'll be seeing dramiel +50 hull, succubus +0.01 inertia. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:50:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Aurora Fatalis wrote:How about building the Guristas line for tinker tanks? They seem to be used that way quite a lot, after all, so why not let the Gallente bonus be a rep drone bonus, Oneiros-style?
rep drones are terrible while armour links exist. and even after that, they'll still be a little bit bad. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 13:01:00 -
[1119] - Quote
We just have to wait to test this ships on the test server. The Tears Must Flow |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 13:02:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Aurora Fatalis wrote:How about building the Guristas line for tinker tanks? They seem to be used that way quite a lot, after all, so why not let the Gallente bonus be a rep drone bonus, Oneiros-style?
No thanks. The Tears Must Flow |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 13:12:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:CCP Rise, how about looking again at Sansha, the afterburner bonus will be useless on at least one of their ships, and the Phantasm is now forced to use one completely changing the current playstyle for the worse in my opinion. How do you know it will be useless? There are ways to make any of the three ships depend on speed and excel at it (case in point: Machariel). Yes, it's a drastic change of the current situation, but it's not unheard of. Laser boats in general have been gaining speed, so it's not completely unsurprising to see this either. It is not just a drastic change, it is a complete game changer if this goes ahead. Sansha would have just gone from being the slow heavy hitting monsters which they are right now, to becoming the best speed tanking ships in the game. At least save this for a Minmatar based race.
If the ship I proposed was available on tranquillity, it would be a very tough choice over that and a Maurader for battleship pvp, I can guarantee we would see it in a lot of fleet doctrines. Massive damage potential and difficult to alpha, also equipped with two high utility slots for either nuet/nos or RR. That would be a hell of a lot of fun to fly, and could live up to it's name, literally causing a Nightmare to it's enemies when they see one on dscan.
With the current proposal everyone will simply laugh when they see an anaemic afterburning Nightmare, and Sansha will be a pale shadow of its former self. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 13:30:00 -
[1122] - Quote
sansha ships are not heavy hitting |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
594
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 13:37:00 -
[1123] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:It is not just a drastic change, it is a complete game changer if this goes ahead. Sansha would have just gone from being the slow heavy hitting monsters which they are right now, to becoming the best speed tanking ships in the game. At least save this for a Minmatar based race.
This has happened before, Sanshas used lasers AND missiles before Dominion and had an armor tank. And as I said, Amarr = slow is an old concept, these days they have some of the fastest ships in game. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 13:52:00 -
[1124] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:sansha ships are not heavy hitting Yes that is true, they aren't right now. The Phantasm is the only one which puts out respectable dps in it's ship class. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 13:57:00 -
[1125] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morwennon wrote:Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships? For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50.
you really should give them the extra 50. frigates in particular often cannot afford 30 CPU for a damage mod, and you just can't do damage rigs without 400.
(rigs and rig calibration costs could probably use their own expansion) |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
656
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:04:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Quote:Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid.
but there is i have offered multiple good options on this
split the drone damage to it or a portion .. this way training gallente skill makes sense and HP is unaffected.. or offer a drone tracking/velocity bonus which we often see on drone brawling gallente ships .. ogre's in particular need it
also no mention of why it hasn't got the -1 slot that droneships usually get Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:05:00 -
[1127] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:sansha ships are not heavy hitting Yes that is true, they aren't right now. The Phantasm is the only one which puts out respectable dps in it's ship class.
it has fewer effective turrets than both the cynabal and vigilant, and a smaller dronebay, and it cannot fit beams, and it's really slow and cannot tank and has cap problems. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:06:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Quote:Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. but there is i have offered multiple good options on this split the drone damage to it or a portion .. this way training gallente skill makes sense and HP is unaffected.. or offer a drone tracking/velocity bonus which we often see on drone brawling gallente ships .. ogre's in particular need it also no mention of why it hasn't got the -1 slot that droneships usually get
a 37% tracking bonus doesn't work at all to make heavy drones good on cruisers. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:10:00 -
[1129] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:sansha ships are not heavy hitting Yes that is true, they aren't right now. The Phantasm is the only one which puts out respectable dps in it's ship class. it has fewer effective turrets than both the cynabal and vigilant, and a smaller dronebay, and it cannot fit beams, and it's really slow and cannot tank and has cap problems. Yes, although the Cynabel and Vigilant are both top damage dealers, so that doesn't necessarily mean it has weak dps. Everything you say is correct except for when you said "it cannot tank". I would disagree with that. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
656
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:12:00 -
[1130] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote:Quote:Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. but there is i have offered multiple good options on this split the drone damage to it or a portion .. this way training gallente skill makes sense and HP is unaffected.. or offer a drone tracking/velocity bonus which we often see on drone brawling gallente ships .. ogre's in particular need it also no mention of why it hasn't got the -1 slot that droneships usually get a 37% tracking bonus doesn't work at all to make heavy drones good on cruisers.
vexor navy issue disagrees..
also on worm i would suggest you move the missile damage bonus to role bonus...
is there a reason you are not adding more role bonuses like you did with the SOE ships?
also no mention of angels/serpentis in your post RISE ... DD should have drams drones, stronger armour tank /less shields and web mods need a nerf.. angels ships need sharper focus .. stronger shield emphasis .. means nerfing armour hp .. buff damage projection so they are the masters of projectiles that ISIS claims they are.. remove drones/launchers at least on the dram.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:13:00 -
[1131] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote:Quote:Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. but there is i have offered multiple good options on this split the drone damage to it or a portion .. this way training gallente skill makes sense and HP is unaffected.. or offer a drone tracking/velocity bonus which we often see on drone brawling gallente ships .. ogre's in particular need it also no mention of why it hasn't got the -1 slot that droneships usually get a 37% tracking bonus doesn't work at all to make heavy drones good on cruisers. vexor navy issue disagrees.. also on worm i would suggest you move the missile damage bonus to role bonus... is there a reason you are not adding more role bonuses like you did with the SOE ships? also no mention of angels/serpentis in your post RISE ... DD should have drams drones and web mods need a nerf.. angels ships need sharper focus .. stronger shield emphasis .. means nerfing armour hp .. buff damage projection so they are the masters of projectiles that ISIS claims they are.. remove drones/launchers at least on the dram..
vexor navy issue has sexy space camo and I love it forever, but it should really just be using 200% bonused medium drones instead of slightly faster heavies. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
656
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:20:00 -
[1132] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Harvey James wrote:Quote:Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. but there is i have offered multiple good options on this split the drone damage to it or a portion .. this way training gallente skill makes sense and HP is unaffected.. or offer a drone tracking/velocity bonus which we often see on drone brawling gallente ships .. ogre's in particular need it also no mention of why it hasn't got the -1 slot that droneships usually get a 37% tracking bonus doesn't work at all to make heavy drones good on cruisers. vexor navy issue disagrees.. also on worm i would suggest you move the missile damage bonus to role bonus... is there a reason you are not adding more role bonuses like you did with the SOE ships? also no mention of angels/serpentis in your post RISE ... DD should have drams drones and web mods need a nerf.. angels ships need sharper focus .. stronger shield emphasis .. means nerfing armour hp .. buff damage projection so they are the masters of projectiles that ISIS claims they are.. remove drones/launchers at least on the dram.. vexor navy issue has sexy space camo and I love it forever, but it should really just be using 200% bonused medium drones instead of slightly faster heavies.
i would agrre with you there .. but at least gila should Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
291
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:52:00 -
[1133] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alright, I'm back from a busy weekend of birthday and New Eden Open (If you didn't watch I highly recommend you do!).
First, I wish this stuff was going to Sisi soon so you all could actually get your hands on it, but unfortunately that won't be for a while still. I posted it rather early so that I could get reactions to these themes before investing more work in the other two classes, which has paid off really well for me so thanks for that.
So by now it seems like the Cruor has won as the most contentious with the Worm and Succubus following close behind.
There's actually several reasons why the Cruor ended up like this and I feel pretty good about all of them. The most important is that it's difficult to push the bonuses in a different direction without finding a lot of overlap with other ship(s) and/or getting far too powerful. For instance, if we dropped webs entirely and gave it some kind of range bonus for cap-warfare it ends up competing heavily with the Sentinel or Dragoon AND is likely too powerful. The current layout is very unique and while the range synergy isn't perfect, that certainly doesn't mean the ship isn't useful for powerful. On top of that, a big goal in this pass was to unify the themes across the entire faction line. You will see more of that when I can post the threads for cruisers and battleships, but wanting a set of bonuses that translates well to all three classes is valuable and this Cruor set does that well.
Cruor will only be bought by people who have isk to throw around. it will be replaced by triple neut tristans with this current proposal. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 14:58:00 -
[1134] - Quote
The only way to run Sansha ships now will be active shield tank with speed or damage rigs. So no more buffer tank, and no more MWD, nothing interesting, just standard cookie cutter stuff. The nightmare is going to be a joke. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:01:00 -
[1135] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:The only way to run Sansha ships now will be active shield tank with speed or damage rigs. So no more buffer tank, and no more MWD, nothing interesting, just standard cookie cutter stuff. The nightmare is going to be a joke.
why no more buffer tank? are you having a bad understanding of signature radius? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:04:00 -
[1136] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:The only way to run Sansha ships now will be active shield tank with speed or damage rigs. So no more buffer tank, and no more MWD, nothing interesting, just standard cookie cutter stuff. The nightmare is going to be a joke. why no more buffer tank? are you having a bad understanding of signature radius? Why would anyone fit a buffer tank along with shield rigs and watch the benefit they just got from having an afterburner bonus wiped out. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:07:00 -
[1137] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:The only way to run Sansha ships now will be active shield tank with speed or damage rigs. So no more buffer tank, and no more MWD, nothing interesting, just standard cookie cutter stuff. The nightmare is going to be a joke. why no more buffer tank? are you having a bad understanding of signature radius? Why would anyone fit a buffer tank along with shield rigs and watch the benefit they just got from having an afterburner bonus wiped out.
the benefit is range control. if enemy frigate turrets cannot hit you, you also will be missing. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:12:00 -
[1138] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:The only way to run Sansha ships now will be active shield tank with speed or damage rigs. So no more buffer tank, and no more MWD, nothing interesting, just standard cookie cutter stuff. The nightmare is going to be a joke. why no more buffer tank? are you having a bad understanding of signature radius? Why would anyone fit a buffer tank along with shield rigs and watch the benefit they just got from having an afterburner bonus wiped out. the benefit is range control. if enemy frigate turrets cannot hit you, you also will be missing. So what is the point then, if you are missing and your enemy are both missing then the ships are just going to be a joke. And an afterburner even with a bonus isn't going to give any range control against the majority of opponents you face, you still need a MWD for that.
These proposals have basically reduced flying Sansha ships to be like flying an expensive Minmatar ship. |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:15:00 -
[1139] - Quote
GIVE ME A ONE REASON why i should pick a cruor over a sentinel then ? Jesus Sentinel is 3/4x cheaper, have 30km bonused neuts, who need web when you shut down their prop mod in 2 neut cycles, can have almost similar ehp, bonused td's plus 4 drones . Cruor will be usless |
Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
342
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:16:00 -
[1140] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort :)
CCP Rise and team,
At this point, I doubt I can change your mind, one way or the other, though I going to give it one more shot.
I donGÇÖt have the experience of running a game with as many players as EVE though on a lower level IGÇÖve ran a game that involved about 150 people for about 8 years on a monthly bases. And I have had discussions quite similar like this one on many occasions.
The thing you call flavor ( I think I read some condescending in the text as well, though that could be just the post), is the reason people play your game.
IGÇÖm quite sure no player will sign up for EVE online because there is a Frigate that fires lasers and has a AB bonus. Players sign up because they want to play a SiFi game with space ships, players played this game even now before those pirate ships are balanced, in that light GÇ£flavorGÇ¥ or Setting/lore should never be taken lightly.
Now IGÇÖm the first to admit that there is a difference in the importance of the global setting and changing a line in that setting, though even in changing or ignoring little things youGÇÖre start creating chaos which has the habit of turning in to confusion, incomprehensive content in a way that is usually hard to predict.
In that light, a good gameplay design should always be molded to be consequent with existing setting and lore, unless there is a very good reason, like a event, storyline or just no other way to pull things off, that later should be molded in a event or storyline though.
If there are 6 pirate lines, that consist of a combination of 2 of the major empireGÇÖs that each give something o their own GÇ£flavorGÇ¥ to that line, you should put up most effort in trying to keep that consistency going. And not have 5 lines that have and 1 that hasnGÇÖt (with GuristaGÇÖs being iffy due to the strange mix up in bonuses), because of a GÇ£goodGÇ¥ game mechanic.
Not to sound too harsh, but last 2 GÇ£goodGÇ¥ mechanics, from you and your team, left us with 2 broken launcher systems and an unsellable battleship, by stepping over so called details. And now that battleship needs to be tinkered in to a lower price by overstepping more GÇ£flavorGÇ¥. And none of them where a necessity.
Just create a Sansha ship that actually consist of Anmar and Caldari influences and create a nice new race/line around the Lazer AB concept.
I hope I was at least able to make myself clear, in this matter, wishing for more.
Regards.
Mike
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:25:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:The only way to run Sansha ships now will be active shield tank with speed or damage rigs. So no more buffer tank, and no more MWD, nothing interesting, just standard cookie cutter stuff. The nightmare is going to be a joke. why no more buffer tank? are you having a bad understanding of signature radius? Why would anyone fit a buffer tank along with shield rigs and watch the benefit they just got from having an afterburner bonus wiped out. the benefit is range control. if enemy frigate turrets cannot hit you, you also will be missing. So what is the point then, if you are missing and your enemy are both missing then the ships are just going to be a joke. And an afterburner even with a bonus isn't going to give any range control against the majority of opponents you face, you still need a MWD for that. These proposals have basically reduced flying Sansha ships to be like flying an expensive Minmatar ship.
range control in silly frigate brawls is serious business. this is why 2 midslot punishers are trash, and why 3 midslot rifters cannot evade damage from anything. this AB bonus just amounts, in range control terms, within web range, to meaning you sort of have an AB and two webs, when actually you have an AB and one web. except that you'll be immune to missiles, and it's even more range control when you start stacking up all the dumb stuff like deadspace ABs, links, etc. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2050
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:31:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Rise is right. Sansha flavor has never been strong. The flavor of the ships is 95% in the visual design. The other 5% of their flavor is in them being released as pirate marauders along with the original marauders. They used to be missile spewing armor tracking disrupting NPCs, but now they shoot lasers and still are armor tanked. And the player ships are laser-shooting shield tanking. They need flavor, because in the gameplay, they don't have much (helped in no small part by the nightmare being the only one worth a damn). So chill out about the AB thing, it is some much needed flavor. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2966
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:33:00 -
[1143] - Quote
Succubus: I think a 10% afterburner bonus per level will suffice (20% is probably to Op). Cruor: I think the vampire should not be specialized; this is a bad precedent. Otherwise fine. Worm: The bonuses are a Gong ShowGǪ Change the Role bonus to 10% kinetic/thermal missile damage per level, change the Gallente bonus to 100% light drone durability and velocity and bump the drone bandwidth back to 25mbit. Daredevil and Dramiel: Fine, but these were minor tweaks anyway. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:38:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: I really think we need to see the entire Pirate lineup before we can be completely objective on these.
why |
Abishai
128
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:11:00 -
[1145] - Quote
You dont want to put the drone damage on the Gallente bonus because we would need Gallente Frigate V? We waited longer for your reply that it would take to train this skill.
Please put the missile damage on the hull bonus and the drone damage on Gallente bonus just like it is in every other ship. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
544
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:18:00 -
[1146] - Quote
I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.
Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.
As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
656
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:25:00 -
[1147] - Quote
the weird thing about the drone HP is that most of it will be on 0% hull resists ... so its not quite as OP as it might seem .. although if they ever get around to buffing drones ... which would surely end up with switching the hull HP towards shield and armour then maybe it would be OP. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:29:00 -
[1148] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Rise is right. Sansha flavor has never been strong. The flavor of the ships is 95% in the visual design. The other 5% of their flavor is in them being released as pirate marauders along with the original marauders. They used to be missile spewing armor tracking disrupting NPCs, but now they shoot lasers and still are armor tanked. And the player ships are laser-shooting shield tanking. They need flavor, because in the gameplay, they don't have much (helped in no small part by the nightmare being the only one worth a damn). So chill out about the AB thing, it is some much needed flavor. It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill. Mike White is correct, CCP Rise has shown contempt for the so called 'flavour' of the game in this pirate rebalance.
Also I understand giving the worm the drone bonus as a role bonus is necessary, but then you should find some other reason for the Gallente skill, perhaps drone tracking or something similar.
I found CCP Rise impressive in the battleship rebalance and also the industrial rebalance, although perhaps his standards are starting to slip now with the recent mess with the Nestor, and RHML's. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:36:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill.
You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:38:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.
Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.
As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom.
because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones.
tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web. |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:43:00 -
[1151] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:range control in silly frigate brawls is serious business. this is why 2 midslot punishers are trash, and why 3 midslot rifters cannot evade damage from anything. this AB bonus just amounts, in range control terms, within web range, to meaning you sort of have an AB and two webs, when actually you have an AB and one web. except that you'll be immune to missiles, and it's even more range control when you start stacking up all the dumb stuff like deadspace ABs, links, etc. Like you say, you are just looking at 'silly' frigate brawls. Having a well performing frigate is nice and everything, but it is insignificant compared to your bigger weapons, ie the cruiser and the battleship, for which these bonuses will simply restrict options and force them to become super expensive minmatar ships.
Also I would even doubt how well this frigate will even perform, yes it will be king of the afterburning frigates, although any frigate with a mwd will shut it down without trouble, the serpentis ships will annihilate it. The dps with only two turrets is still anaemic, the PG has been nerfed so hard it leaves little option to fit any decent tank, so what is left for it. Flying around the enemy really fast so that it makes them dizzy, but as soon as it gets within web range all it can do is try run away as it's speed tank is all it has. So basically it is relegated to staying within beam laser range, which don't track or do much damage. 'It is going to be really exciting'
And the frigate is the most advantaged by these changes, the cruiser, and even worse the Nightmare, will be even worse off unless given some pretty hefty base stat increases.
I really do not look forward to the prospect of flying any of these ships, just cookie cutter active shield tanked rubbish that is relegated to the edge of webbing range, and god forbid the enemy comes with two webs or even a single a 90%, then you are just a sitting duck with nothing to counter it.
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:46:00 -
[1152] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill.
You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right? Which also I was not too keen on, but at least the hull is also based around Amarr design, and so it isn't unimaginable that the Caldari expertise was to just work on the tracking. An afterburner bonus is from out of nowhere. |
Mike Whiite
Stupid Stunts The Wolfpack Nexus
346
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 16:51:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill.
You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right? \
just because it was wrong then/now, should make a president too make it wrong for the future. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
656
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 17:02:00 -
[1154] - Quote
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Slot layout: 2[(-1)/b]H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): [b]15(-10) / 30(+5) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
how about this?.. makes sense from a lore point of view and you can still be effective at lower levels as 3 drones help spread the bonuses better.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2966
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 17:10:00 -
[1155] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level) Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage Role Bonus: 50% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(-10) / 30(+5)
how about this?.. makes sense from a lore point of view and you can still be effective at lower levels as 3 drones help spread the bonuses better.. Role bonus should continue to be a missile bonus, since this is a Caldari hull. I like the 20% bonus to light combat drone damage and hit points, though - just not the second stacking bonus (redundant). Still think it should have 25mbit drone bandwidth. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 17:26:00 -
[1156] - Quote
So, I tried to bring this idea up before, but it was only in passing. Even though some ship bonuses seem to be made for Sentry drones *Cough* Domi *Cough*, there are very few that incentive the use of combat drones. What if the Guristas had bonuses that made combat drones more attractive in order to shake up the order of things.
I'm not a math wizard, so just take these numbers as an example, but what if they had something like:
========================================================================================
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: +10% Drone Velocity per level +10% Drone Agility per level +20% light drone damage / Hp per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: +50% light missile damage -50% Drone optimal range
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
========================================================================================
So, instead of the standard long range sentry drones, Guristas would launch waves of quick combat drones that could close and deal with small/medium targets but have trouble with larger targets. At close range their drones would have a quick response time and could orbit at a higher velocity making them hard to deal with, but loose out to sentry drone boats at longer range.
Just a thought to shake up the current meta a tad. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1041
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 17:30:00 -
[1157] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort :)
So the extremely close collaboration with the lore/story team on the SoE ships was a fluke? Because that was awesome.
Sansha are great lore, prominently featured in the game. While I love the idea in the abstract of a kiting shield laserboat, and I love the additional variety you guys have introduced making active tanks and now afterburners viable in PVP (on the right hulls), I think it's really worth having lunch with CCP Eterne and the guys and talking lore.
Even if the decision is that Sansha Kuvakei is trying out radical new tactics (which would make sense, considering how often his fleets get curbstomped now), so that the lore fits the design, that's still something toothsome and interesting. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2967
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 17:52:00 -
[1158] - Quote
Steph Livingston wrote:So, I tried to bring this idea up before, but it was only in passing. The only problem I see is that Pirate ships get three (3) bonuses, so this isn't going to fly. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2057
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 18:38:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Batelle wrote:Rise is right. Sansha flavor has never been strong. The flavor of the ships is 95% in the visual design. The other 5% of their flavor is in them being released as pirate marauders along with the original marauders. They used to be missile spewing armor tracking disrupting NPCs, but now they shoot lasers and still are armor tanked. And the player ships are laser-shooting shield tanking. They need flavor, because in the gameplay, they don't have much (helped in no small part by the nightmare being the only one worth a damn). So chill out about the AB thing, it is some much needed flavor. It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill. Mike White is correct, CCP Rise has shown contempt for the so called 'flavour' of the game in this pirate rebalance.
The caldari bonus isn't caldari enough? oh come on. Maybe i should throw a fit because the mach has a AC falloff bonus from gallente. What matters is that the ship has the flavor, not the bonus. The current nightmare has its caldari flavor in its shields, it doesn't matter than the caldari bonus is a laser bonus.
Dersen Lowery wrote:So the extremely close collaboration with the lore/story team on the SoE ships was a fluke? Because that was awesome.
Sansha are great lore, prominently featured in the game. While I love the idea in the abstract of a kiting shield laserboat, and I love the additional variety you guys have introduced making active tanks and now afterburners viable in PVP (on the right hulls), I think it's really worth having lunch with CCP Eterne and the guys and talking lore.
OMG SOE missions have me shooting amarr but their ships require amarr skills. The lore!
Seriously though I love the lore but there's nothing about putting afterburners on sansha ships that conflicts with any kind of lore. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
422
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 18:56:00 -
[1160] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.
Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.
As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom. because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones. tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web.
...or... You could focus that same dps on the easier to hit Worm itself and cut its damage to nothing.
Killing a Worm drone is almost as hard as the Worm, and only accounts for about1/3 of its dps, counting its own launchers. |
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2034
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 19:22:00 -
[1161] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.
Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.
As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom. because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones. tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web. ...or... You could focus that same dps on the easier to hit Worm itself and cut its damage to nothing. Killing a Worm drone is almost as hard as the Worm, and only accounts for about1/3 of its dps, counting its own launchers.
He's talking about tding it or kiting it i believe. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
422
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 19:33:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.
Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.
As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom. because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones. tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web. ...or... You could focus that same dps on the easier to hit Worm itself and cut its damage to nothing. Killing a Worm drone is almost as hard as the Worm, and only accounts for about1/3 of its dps, counting its own launchers. He's talking about tding it or kiting it i believe.
Yes, that is one of the trade offs for the stronger drones, they will be more susceptible to ewar. However, you could still recall and redeploy the drone to disrupt their ability to keep a drone locked down.
Nothing is foolproof and everything has drawbacks. If the increased ewar vunerability is not worth the decreased vunerability to being shot or smartbombed, perhaps one of the other drone boats would be better suited.
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Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 19:50:00 -
[1163] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful. That certainly doesn't mean you are required to fit missiles and seeing Worms with Neutralizers rather than missiles wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and I wanted to mention that the Worm missile bonus absolutely DOES affect rockets. [snip] Hope I answered at least some of your questions.
I have a question, what do you think about increasing the Worm's Drone Bay to be more in line with other Guristas ships? |
Miasmos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 19:51:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Cruor looks pretty powerful. The web range bonus specifically. That's a constellation gate radius webbing frigate with good scanres for your gatecamp situations. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
561
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:02:00 -
[1165] - Quote
I was talking about evading the drone's damage, not killing it. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
147
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:11:00 -
[1166] - Quote
I wonder how would succu do with 10% bonus to reactive armour hardener's shift time per lvl, no other ship has that kind of bonus or maybe even a flat bonus of 50%.
Could make it a tough little blowfish with a tad more options and it would fit to Sansha's technological supremacy. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1041
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:17:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:So the extremely close collaboration with the lore/story team on the SoE ships was a fluke? Because that was awesome.
Sansha are great lore, prominently featured in the game. While I love the idea in the abstract of a kiting shield laserboat, and I love the additional variety you guys have introduced making active tanks and now afterburners viable in PVP (on the right hulls), I think it's really worth having lunch with CCP Eterne and the guys and talking lore.
OMG SOE missions have me shooting amarr but their ships require amarr skills. The lore! Seriously though I love the lore but there's nothing about putting afterburners on sansha ships that conflicts with any kind of lore.
I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that it's not good that he hasn't even consulted the lore or its keepers, and that he should probably do that.
As far as the ship itself goes, I love the Succubus. It might not be the most ~optimal~ frigate, but it's going to be hella fun to fly. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
98
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:29:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Sansha lore is so out of whack as is. The only thing that can be agreed on is that they are aggressive and there ships are supposed to be scary looking. Why aren't you crying for it to be armor tanked like the NPC Sansha? It is obviously you guys hating on the AB bonus are pushing for 2k DPS Incursion monsters but you are sacrificing the rest of the Sansha line to do so.
Trying to get the bonuses to make up perfectly with the racial skill they are tied to is both a waste of time and irrelevant. They serve only as a barrier for entry, there is no lore attached at all. Sansha Nation does not only recruit people with equal parts Amarr and Caldari experience. They take whomever. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
723
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:30:00 -
[1169] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus.
There have been plenty around the drones too.
Quote: As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this.
Yes there is. Ditching the missile bonus completely is an option. Some people find the current velocity bonus on the hull handy to use higher damage missiles at greater range. I personally don't fit missiles on my Guristas ships. But you do have options. Leaving it on the hull and dropping it are both options.
Quote: If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid.
How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.
Quote: As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful.
You mean you don't want drone bonuses to overlap with the other really good drone boats? This is why split weapons ships are dumb. Jack of all trades and master of none. The drones hit hard but are slow and inaccurate compared to other drone boats. The missles hit hard, but only to the 2 most commonly resisted damage types, and have no other bonuses common to other missile boats. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3036
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:31:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Sansha lore is so out of whack as is. The only thing that can be agreed on is that they are aggressive and there ships are supposed to be scary looking. Why aren't you crying for it to be armor tanked like the NPC Sansha? It is obviously you guys hating on the AB bonus are pushing for 2k DPS Incursion monsters but you are sacrificing the rest of the Sansha line to do so.
Trying to get the bonuses to make up perfectly with the racial skill they are tied to is both a waste of time and irrelevant. They serve only as a barrier for entry, there is no lore attached at all. Sansha Nation does not only recruit people with equal parts Amarr and Caldari experience. They take whomever.
QFT.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
|
Batelle
HOMELE55
2062
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:34:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Seriously though I love the lore but there's nothing about putting afterburners on sansha ships that conflicts with any kind of lore.
I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that it's not good that he hasn't even consulted the lore or its keepers, and that he should probably do that.[/quote]
How do you know he hasn't? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1041
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:38:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Batelle wrote:How do you know he hasn't?
The paragraph I quoted strongly implies that either he hasn't, or he has and decided it didn't apply. Did you read it, or are you just firing off one-liners? Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2063
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:46:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Quote: If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid.
How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.
Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too.
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Quote:As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful.
You mean you don't want drone bonuses to overlap with the other really good drone boats? This is why split weapons ships are dumb. Jack of all trades and master of none. The drones hit hard but are slow and inaccurate compared to other drone boats. The missles hit hard, but only to the 2 most commonly resisted damage types, and have no other bonuses common to other missile boats.
Drone boats were good before the Ishtar and Domi got rebalanced you know. Since rebalancing, split weapon system ships have been toned down a bit, but those that remain are dps monsters. Like the navy domi. And if you have the SP, they're pretty awesome (see all versions of the typhoon since forever). The 50% missile damage bonus will let gurista ships become the dps monsters that other pirate ships are. All without giving up the very powerful tanking bonus. I'm pretty stoked about that.
Also, giving the rattlesnake drone damage, shield resistance, and the sentry range/tracking bonus, along with 7 mids and 6 lows would just be wtf OP. The missile bonus is a lot weaker, but its probably a better option. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
181
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:49:00 -
[1174] - Quote
I had a whole post prepared about lore, flavour, uniqueness and power that combines to make the pirate ships but instead:
- Sansha needs work - Cruor needs Minmatarbonus changed to: 20% range to modules requiring propulsion jamming skill per level - Worm, DD, Dram are fine
TL,DR: Cruor needs web and scram bonus to balance low mobility. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
98
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:52:00 -
[1175] - Quote
He probably should have or should now consult the lore keepers. That being said, he isn't wrong in his assessment of Sansha lore. None of the proposed changes conflicts with the existing lore for any of the pirate factions. Any complaints specifically regarding lore should are covers for other agendas or based on an individual players "vision" of what a certain faction should be.
Lore complaints are right up there with "I want 5 drones because... I just want 5 drones!" The people spewing them are derailing the thread and complaining because things aren't going the way they had assumed they would. In all reality they are making it harder for people with legit concerns about the Worm/Succubus/Crour to be taken seriously. They are hurting their cause. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 20:57:00 -
[1176] - Quote
DISCLAIMER: I don't do much flying around in pirate frigates, because they cost a lot.
First of all, I rather like the worm bonuses. They manage to make the worm's drones useful, without overlapping on all the other droneboats in the game. I also like that worm is getting a missile bonus that works well with the tank bonus. Succumbus's bonuses are also fine I think, because generally I just hear about how people should fit MWD's to their [insert ship here], and a few more AB ships will add flavor. Cruror's bonuses are making you more able to either kite or brawl, which I think will encourage variability. Then again, I don't have much experience fitting or flying said pirate frigates, so my opinions may be complete ****. Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1041
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:06:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Batelle wrote:I don't think what he said implies that at all, although its entirely possible that he hasn't consulted with them. In the paragraph you're talking about he specifically says "...don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay," which is the matter at hand anyway.
And which the Sansha roleplayers here seem to have a problem with. If anything, there's not a lot of flavor associated with actual gameplay because the Succubus and the Phantasm never got any actual gameplay, except as red crosses. The one ship that did is the Nightmare, which is a lumbering engine of death at long range.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1026
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:10:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.
Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too. Well, considering the strength of the bonus it makes the gap between entering the ship and fully skilled enormous unless the bonus is partially split between role and level bonuses. Without that split your talking about a 60%/lvl bonus if the whole thing is placed in the Gallente skill. And if you need to split it to make it work, why bother? |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2068
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:19:00 -
[1179] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Batelle wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.
Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too. Well, considering the strength of the bonus it makes the gap between entering the ship and fully skilled enormous unless the bonus is partially split between role and level bonuses.
I don't understand this. 300% role bonus as proposed on the worm, no split, what's the problem? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
296
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:24:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that it's not good that he hasn't even consulted the lore or its keepers, and that he should probably do that.
As far as the ship itself goes, I love the Succubus. It might not be the most ~optimal~ frigate, but it's going to be hella fun to fly.
He didn't say that he hasn't consulted anyone on Lore, he said he's not aware of any Lore issues with that, and honestly having spent way too many hours shooting Sansha in Incursions their ships are *really* freaking fast. IMO this works perfectly. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1026
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:24:00 -
[1181] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Batelle wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.
Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too. Well, considering the strength of the bonus it makes the gap between entering the ship and fully skilled enormous unless the bonus is partially split between role and level bonuses. I don't understand this. 300% role bonus as proposed on the worm, no split, what's the problem? You seemed to be associating the fact that Rise didn't want the drone bonus associated with a ship skill level with the fact that the ship was a pirate ship. My line of though is that it's not so much that it's a pirate ship as the fact that the bonus would create a far more extreme gap in performance between skill levels that already exists on most drone ships already.
I'm not seeing an issue with the bonus as proposed, but rather speculating as to the underlying reason. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:39:00 -
[1182] - Quote
The issue with Sansha having an afterburner bonus is not just regarding any preconception we may have of existing lore, but is more due to the fact that it completely changes current gameplay.
Now they are an active shield speed tanking race completely based around speed. They are basically minmatar + |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2069
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:42:00 -
[1183] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: You seemed to be associating the fact that Rise didn't want the drone bonus associated with a ship skill level with the fact that the ship was a pirate ship. My line of though is that it's not so much that it's a pirate ship as the fact that the bonus would create a far more extreme gap in performance between skill levels that already exists on most drone ships already.
I'm not seeing an issue with the bonus as proposed, but rather speculating as to the underlying reason.
I see what you're saying now.. If it was 60%/level for two drones the gap between 4-5 is more than doubled. However I do think the fact that its a pirate ship is relevant. I'm just thinking about those poor caldari that have cross trained into both drones and gallente skills, and not getting their money's worth unless they take the plunge to cross train a second race to level 5. Still missing caldari bs 5 on my snake... "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:43:00 -
[1184] - Quote
There is no good reason to remove missile velocity bonuses from Guristas ships. Devs are just ******* people over needlessly. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1137
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 21:51:00 -
[1185] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:The issue with Sansha having an afterburner bonus is not just regarding any preconception we may have of existing lore, but is more due to the fact that it completely changes current gameplay.
Not at all. Succubus and Phantasm don't see any current gameplay, so what is there to change?
And why would the AB bonus change the Nightmare, assuming that it doesn't lose its current damage output in the fashion of the Succubus? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 22:22:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:The issue with Sansha having an afterburner bonus is not just regarding any preconception we may have of existing lore, but is more due to the fact that it completely changes current gameplay. Not at all. Succubus and Phantasm don't see any current gameplay, so what is there to change?.
I'm flying a Phantasm as we speak. hehe
Gypsio III wrote:And why would the AB bonus change the Nightmare, assuming that it doesn't lose its current damage output in the fashion of the Succubus?
The nightmare won't get any use from an afterburner bonus, what is the point in the bonus if it is of no use to the main ship.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2034
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 22:51:00 -
[1187] - Quote
Hey if Lore mattered in this game Gallente ships would have shiny flamboyant paint schemes..
Not disgusting teal and grey..
Can we get rid of all the grey? please?
BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1137
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 22:55:00 -
[1188] - Quote
You and you alone are flying the Phantasm, I fear.
The Nightmare doesn't really need much of a boost. On it, the AB bonus will simply be an interesting option. The clever thing about the AB bonus is that it gives most help to the ships that most need it, as opposed to a uniform boost that makes the NM too powerful, mostly to the benefit of highsec incursioneers, and doesn't fix the ships that actually need help. |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 22:58:00 -
[1189] - Quote
WHAT CCP stuff is basicly doing here : Oh , you dont like sansha bonus ? it will colide with the lore ? **** you and lore i like this bonus Oh , so much people bitching about cruor crappy change ? **** you , i need this bonus for my bhaal |
Xercodo
Xovoni Astronautical Manufacturing and Engineering
3422
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 23:33:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:CCP Rise, how about looking again at Sansha, the afterburner bonus will be useless on at least one of their ships, and the Phantasm is now forced to use one completely changing the current playstyle for the worse in my opinion. I've been impressed in the past by how you have altered ships for the better after listening to feedback, and so I have faith you will always get to a good solution. I've been editing the EveHQ database and come up with some rough designs of my own for what I think would be a much better direction for Sansha. I compared the stats against other ships of equal class and although a rought draft, these would fit in well to the current meta. Also I'd just like re quote this as it was on what I based the concept of the proposals below. Ghost Hunter wrote:the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used as a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades Seeing as the Nightmare is the most contentious ship, I'll start by showing the rough concept for it which I have made. Another turret slot is added bringing the ships damage very slightly over that of the current Vindicator, with pulses lasers matching blasters, and beam laser matching railguns. Also another mid slot is added to make up for the missing slot, this also allows a greater shield capacity making the Nightmare one of the most survivable battleships if a full tank is fitted, base shield is lowered to make sure it will not be too powerful, although I was thinking perhaps to reduce it even further still. Various base adjustments were made to the fitting and capacitor to allow reasonable fitting, although it will always be on a knife edge as should be the case. Finally, speed is dropped and signature bumped up, to make this one of the slowest and largest signatured battleships, with MWD fitted it will go up to between 700 m/s and 800 m/s. I predict it would perform very similar to a maurader, barring the fact that no bastion module can be fitted, and would become a powerhouse in pvp if you can work around its slow speed and agility, and balancing it's large capacitor consumption on a knife edge. NIGHTMARE
Amarr Battleship Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 7H, 8M (+1), 4L; 5 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 14800 PWG (+300), 740 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 9000 (-735) / 8000 (-695) / 7800 (-460) Capacitor (amount / recharge: 9800 (+2850) / 1025 (-130) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass ): 85 (-9) / 0.136 / 99300000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75 Signature radius: 420 (+20)Also as posted previously, this is the matching concept for the Succubus. SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M (+1), 2L (-1); 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 58 PWG (+14), 195 CPU (+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650 / 550 / 540 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450 / 210000 / 2.14 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (-20) / 3.5 / 965000 / 4.68s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km (+2) / 650 / 6 (+1) Sensor strength: 16 (+3) Signature radius: 38 (+5)Finally the phantasm, I did not have too much time to play around with altering the stats, but from experience I would simply suggest adding an extra mid slot which was missing, and keeping it's damage at its current respectable level. The extra mid slot will allow it to perform it's role of webbing and scramming the enemy whilst still being able to fit a respectable shield tank. I think these proposals would put Sansha in a very good place. I am not 100% on the Nightmare still, I think it may need its stats reducing slightly further, but this is simply a rough draft. And I hope these proposals may be of interest.
ALL OF THIS
It makes the sansha in a great mix of Rokh and Abaddon with the damage potential of a vindi to give the amarr a heavy brawler pirate race while the blood raiders can remain the skirmisher types
The Drake is a Lie |
|
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 23:50:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:CCP Rise, how about looking again at Sansha, the afterburner bonus will be useless on at least one of their ships, and the Phantasm is now forced to use one completely changing the current playstyle for the worse in my opinion. I've been impressed in the past by how you have altered ships for the better after listening to feedback, and so I have faith you will always get to a good solution. I've been editing the EveHQ database and come up with some rough designs of my own for what I think would be a much better direction for Sansha. I compared the stats against other ships of equal class and although a rought draft, these would fit in well to the current meta. Also I'd just like re quote this as it was on what I based the concept of the proposals below. Ghost Hunter wrote:the sansha gimmick is that their ships are a functional weight size above what their actual designation is
the succubus needs a clearer role designation so more overbearing firepower as a destroyer should suffice
the phantasm is a battlecruiser in a cruiser's skin, it outclasses its own weight size and gives most BCs a run for their money if its meant to be the literal spearhead, emphasizing a tackle and hold role might suffice better
the nightmare is just an overbearingly accurate damage platform that can be retrofitted into a ferocious active tank it's a marauder literally they prototyped the marauder concept with the nightmare
used as a test bed then left behind when everyone else got more powerful upgrades Seeing as the Nightmare is the most contentious ship, I'll start by showing the rough concept for it which I have made. Another turret slot is added bringing the ships damage very slightly over that of the current Vindicator, with pulses lasers matching blasters, and beam laser matching railguns. Also another mid slot is added to make up for the missing slot, this also allows a greater shield capacity making the Nightmare one of the most survivable battleships if a full tank is fitted, base shield is lowered to make sure it will not be too powerful, although I was thinking perhaps to reduce it even further still. Various base adjustments were made to the fitting and capacitor to allow reasonable fitting, although it will always be on a knife edge as should be the case. Finally, speed is dropped and signature bumped up, to make this one of the slowest and largest signatured battleships, with MWD fitted it will go up to between 700 m/s and 800 m/s. I predict it would perform very similar to a maurader, barring the fact that no bastion module can be fitted, and would become a powerhouse in pvp if you can work around its slow speed and agility, and balancing it's large capacitor consumption on a knife edge. NIGHTMARE
Amarr Battleship Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 7H, 8M (+1), 4L; 5 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 14800 PWG (+300), 740 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 9000 (-735) / 8000 (-695) / 7800 (-460) Capacitor (amount / recharge: 9800 (+2850) / 1025 (-130) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass ): 85 (-9) / 0.136 / 99300000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75 Signature radius: 420 (+20)Also as posted previously, this is the matching concept for the Succubus. SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M (+1), 2L (-1); 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 58 PWG (+14), 195 CPU (+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650 / 550 / 540 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450 / 210000 / 2.14 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (-20) / 3.5 / 965000 / 4.68s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km (+2) / 650 / 6 (+1) Sensor strength: 16 (+3) Signature radius: 38 (+5)Finally the phantasm, I did not have too much time to play around with altering the stats, but from experience I would simply suggest adding an extra mid slot which was missing, and keeping it's damage at its current respectable level. The extra mid slot will allow it to perform it's role of webbing and scramming the enemy whilst still being able to fit a respectable shield tank. I think these proposals would put Sansha in a very good place. I am not 100% on the Nightmare still, I think it may need its stats reducing slightly further, but this is simply a rough draft. And I hope these proposals may be of interest. ALL OF THIS It makes the sansha in a great mix of Rokh and Abaddon with the damage potential of a vindi to give the amarr a heavy brawler pirate race while the blood raiders can remain the skirmisher types Before you go any further, I'd like to point out that one of the reasons Rise chose the AB bonus was that it wouldn't affect the nightmare much, while boosting the use of the Succumbus and the Phantasm, because apparently he's satisfied with the nightmare. IMO, I think the AB bonus is pretty cool and unique. Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 23:55:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Rise the cruor without being able to neut or nos past 10km will inevitably die to anything that has a web and an AB by mere kiting it outside its neut/nos range it effectively becomes worse then a tormentor in that situation
the after burner bonus just will not work on a battleship and I have my doubts with the phantasm as well the nightmare just lack so many things the mach has, its gonna be much slower for one, less range and tracking, less agile a 100mn phantasm while being just as fast as a 100mn tengu will also be much less agile have less range and being a gun ship needs to watch its tracking, it has way less tank and capacitor live
on the other hand it might be too easy for a succubus to just run away from a fight when ever it wants since few frigates use two webs they will not be able to hold it down Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 00:15:00 -
[1193] - Quote
The AB bonus wasn't supposed to do much on the nightmare, because Rise is happy with it where it is right now. Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
248
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 00:41:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:The AB bonus wasn't supposed to do much on the nightmare, because Rise is happy with it where it is right now.
This. The Amarr damage bonus will probably be merged to the role bonus on the hull too to make room for the AB, so the NM will just get a little more versatile. Don't expect any big buffs for the NM, CCP is content with it.
|
Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:15:00 -
[1195] - Quote
#NOBAMA 2014
PLEASE OBAMA
FIX THE CARACAL |
Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:21:00 -
[1196] - Quote
Dalikah wrote: Just to reply to your latest post Rise:
The 40s reload timer: Do you really feel like a 40s period of not being able to effectively defend yourself against tackle is not a deal-breaker, when an Interceptor is going to be able to pass 2 systems and tackle you in this amount of time with Rubicon? And why would one ever invest 2-300m ISK into a HAC that can do nothing but warp in, kill a few Frigates and is then either useless for 40s or forced off? The same problem comes with the inability to switch ammo efficently, an Enyo can appear basically out of nowhere within seconds, render your kinetic missiles useless and force a reload - good luck kiting long enough to reload and kill an MWD-bonused AF.
Also, yes, RLML deal a whole lot of damage to MWDing T1-frigs, and a reasonable amount to AFs, but have you ever actually looked at a DPS graph against a properly fitted Interceptor backed up by the Rubicon changes? A current 3x BCU Cerberus does 90 DPS to a Malediction using faction missiles, which means it would take almost 40 seconds (or 30s with precision) to kill it . That sounds reasonable and well balanced, why does it have to change? Yes, nice, it will take less time with the ROF changes, but you-&re not going to kill more than 1-2 before you have to reload, which is nothing but a bad joke (this also assumes no links, no heat and ignores the greatly reduced range through the Ceptor-&s high speed). And this is just about the Cerberus, the by far highest-DPS RLML platform - others like Caracal and Fleet Scythe would suffer even more.
You also state that the front-loaded DPS and ridiculous reload will bring "new kinds of decision making" and "spikes of tension", which basically translates to more tactical gameplay. This is simply completely false. Missiles in general already tend to offer slightly less tactical and piloting options than turret ships in return for a more reliable dps output, just because the whole mechanics around transversal and maneuvers to force people into taking more damage from your weapons do not really exist in missile based combat. Instead, you have the immunity to tracking disruption, resistance to ECM and damps via FoFs as well as (semi-)fully selectable damagetypes - your changes would make all of those bar the td-immunity more or less obsolete in the heat of a fight. This leaves us with a very dull and stale weapon system, that basically only allows 1 tactic: choose ammo, warp in, try to gank the lowest ehp ship(s), burn off/warp off/die. This offers no diversity, no ability to react to changing circumstances in a reasonable amount of time (i.e. new incoming tackle, need of max (fury) dps, etc), simply no interesting nor challenging gameplay.
If you really feel like RLML are slightly overpowered in their current state (I don-&t see people shooting monuments over RLML so they can-&t be ridiculously strong and need a nerf into the ground, like you proposed here), then reduce their damage application and volley by a little, then see how things go.
I appreciate the fact that you want to try out new ideas and concepts, and the basic idea of front-loaded dps or swarm-missiles surely has potential, but it-&s nothing to bring up 1.5 weeks before the patch goes live, nor something to replace "normal" launchers with - throw them onto Singularity along with tweaks to the "normal" RLML, give people time to test them out. gather data, adjust accordingly and consider a further rebalancing of RLML with Rubicon 1.1 (the changes in powergrid need already are a bit of nerf for now, aren-&t they). You even basically admitted yourself that making such drastic changes to a popular weapon does bring a lot of problems with it if not part of the future entire module/weapon tiericide and rebalancing - so please take yourself some time and think about your ideas again. In fact, with the shifts of the Eve meta towards Cruisers/HACs and away from battlecruisers, reverting the nerf to HML application might be an interesting move on Singularity to see how people react and adapt, and then look at RLML again and ask yourself if they really are/were too strong, or the other medium sized missile systems too weak.
#HEALTHCARE2014 |
Rabbit P
23rd Tier Overseer's Personal Effects Pangu Coalition
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 04:37:00 -
[1197] - Quote
I want to clarify one thing
Energy Vampires fit on blood's ship continue to leech from the target until their cap reaches zero, then in the next cycle NOS will get nothing until target recharge a bit? or NOS can still 'generate' cap even the target has no cap left? |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
248
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 05:40:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Rabbit P wrote:I want to clarify one thing
Energy Vampires fit on blood's ship continue to leech from the target until their cap reaches zero, then in the next cycle NOS will get nothing until target recharge a bit? or NOS can still 'generate' cap even the target has no cap left?
If the target has 0 cap, you get 0 cap I think. Its also almost impossible to have 0 cap though, even if you are capped out in a cycle you will get some cap before the module cycles again.
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
422
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 05:59:00 -
[1199] - Quote
Correct. Regular Nos only gives cap if the current amount is greater than your own as a whole number, not percentage. This means that for the most part Nos is useless against targets smaller than you as unless you drain yourself very low you will always have more than they do.
Blood Raider Nos will always drain for its full amount until the target is empty. It wont generate extra to make up a cycle, but it will take them down to absolute zero and keep them there, which on other ships requires a Neut. |
Pippan
Probe Patrol Awakened.
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 09:11:00 -
[1200] - Quote
So when is this going to hit SiSi? |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 09:58:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:The AB bonus wasn't supposed to do much on the nightmare, because Rise is happy with it where it is right now. I still disagree with having a bonus which does nothing, or very little on the most important ship in the line up, but barring that fact, then Sansha ships are still lacking on damage dealing abliity.
Right now the Succubus is doing less than 70% of the damage that a Daredevil can do, all it can do at the moment is run away from things with its afterburner bonus, but it can't brawl with any thing else as it will die. At max skills with Conflageration and two heatsinks all it can do is 254 dps, a firetail can almost match its dps. The Daredevil with two heatsinks is going to be doing 376 dps which is almost 50% more damage.
It is a similar story for the Nightmare and Phantasm which are both going to be affected by this afterburner bonus even less.
I would suggest bumping up the role bonus to "175% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage" across the whole Sansha line up. Either that or dropping the damage bonus and giving them all an extra turret slot. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1138
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 10:14:00 -
[1202] - Quote
Why is the Nightmare the most important Sansha ship? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 11:00:00 -
[1203] - Quote
Perhaps not the most important ship, but it is the most powerful ship, and out in null sec it is the most crucial to get right.
I'm guessing a lot of people commenting are FW players, who love to use the frigates which we provide for them to use for their epic frigate battles, (unless they are out in null sec themselves). I have rarely seen a pirate cruisers, and never seen a pirate battleship in FW.
But the reality is the pirate battleship and pirate cruiser are the significant ships when using ships in null sec, the frigate will just get stomped by bubbles and all the other nasty things out there. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
202
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 12:07:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:The AB bonus wasn't supposed to do much on the nightmare, because Rise is happy with it where it is right now.
I am not.
The Nightmare still needs some capacitor and mobility love. I have flown her and shooting conflag and shield tanking makes you wish for x-large heavy cap boosters with ten 800 charges and a cap booster cycle time of 9 seconds.
Any sort of cap pressure and your one billion gank boat goes to Neverland.
About the Cruor, I am not sure what your complaints are all about?
That boat gets a web range bonus and a NOS slurp bonus (ok that one would suit the Succubus better because 'Succubus' but I'll let that slide..). Nobody ever said you need to activate all modules at the same time in any situation and if you are worried about the meta 1-5 NOS range, well use the deadspace type-a one - haz 15.6km range.
I found one recently and you cannot have it, muhahahahaha.
Everything that the Sansha boats get will (hopefully) be better then they are now and I still hope they all get some capacitor love or my lasers will stay very sad.
I am also sad that my idea about the Sanshas getting a smartbomb anti-drone role didn't get considered but we have to live with that until next time I guess. signature |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
594
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 12:46:00 -
[1205] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:PS: the AB bonus was only very powerful on assault frigates due to the combination of heavy tank and high dps same goes for the tengu
Exactly the opposite - Tengu's AB speed forms a huge portion of her tank. Try to hit the ship at full speed, then web it and try to hit it again. You'll notice it's taking a bucketloads of damage more. That's why an elite frigate with web is her worst enemy in pve, but at the same time, it makes her pretty much immune to battleships. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
321
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 13:10:00 -
[1206] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. This is why people are talking about the Gila and Rattlesnake; you said each Guristas ships not just the Worm. And it's a horrible idea for the reasons already mentioned; it adds an impossible-to-balance situation regarding sentry drones, which I think you guys could use a little less of.
What about using Guristas to solve other real drone problems, instead of rehashing a tired, old buff: time to apply damage to target. If drones could be on target almost as quickly as they are launched, that would go a long way to giving Guristas a very useful drone buff.
You could also explore a Guristas-only drone family with unique abilities, including mobile sentry drones that moved about half as fast as heavies when not shooting but have to stop when they do start shooting. Think Terran tanks in Starcraft that need to "deploy" or "siege" (both horrible word choices) before they want to cause real damage ... a few seconds before they start shooting to stop and reconfigure themselves, and a few seconds after shooting to reconfigure and start moving again.
If you continue with the path you've chosen, you'll just be revisiting it again later because it's too overpowered. Don't even go there in the first place.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
545
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 13:14:00 -
[1207] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:He's talking about tding it or kiting it i believe. The thing is that this strategy will be far less effective than doing it against any other ship : you will decrease not even the third of the dps and still leave about 150dps fully applyed. Focusing on a drone means the fight is not a 1v1 anymore but a 1v3.
If you dedicate one of your midslot to control one drone, you basicaly free the Worm and the other drone, you forgo range and speed control and you're toasted. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
563
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 14:31:00 -
[1208] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:He's talking about tding it or kiting it i believe. The thing is that this strategy will be far less effective than doing it against any other ship : you will decrease not even the third of the dps and still leave about 150dps fully applyed. Focusing on a drone means the fight is not a 1v1 anymore but a 1v3. If you dedicate one of your midslot to control one drone, you basicaly free the Worm and the other drone, you forgo range and speed control and you're toasted.
it's a worm, it has missiles. it doesn't particularly care what range you're at. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2082
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 14:40:00 -
[1209] - Quote
Meytal wrote:CCP Rise wrote:As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. This is why people are talking about the Gila and Rattlesnake; you said each Guristas ships not just the Worm. And it's a horrible idea for the reasons already mentioned; it adds an impossible-to-balance situation regarding sentry drones, which I think you guys could use a little less of.
Why is this impossible to balance? The ship goes from 7.5 effective drones to 8, assuming theres a restriction capping it at 2 active drones.
Quote: What about using Guristas to solve other real drone problems, instead of rehashing a tired, old buff: time to apply damage to target. If drones could be on target almost as quickly as they are launched, that would go a long way to giving Guristas a very useful drone buff.
There's no reason guristas needs to solve this instead of it being fixed for all drones. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 14:50:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Joe Boirele wrote:The AB bonus wasn't supposed to do much on the nightmare, because Rise is happy with it where it is right now. I still disagree with having a bonus which does nothing, or very little on the most important ship in the line up, but barring that fact, then Sansha ships are still lacking on damage dealing abliity. Right now the Succubus is doing less than 70% of the damage that a Daredevil can do, all it can do at the moment is run away from things with its afterburner bonus, but it can't brawl with any thing else as it will die. At max skills with Conflageration and two heatsinks all it can do is 254 dps, a firetail can almost match its dps. The Daredevil with two heatsinks is going to be doing 376 dps which is almost 50% more damage. It is a similar story for the Nightmare and Phantasm which are both going to be affected by this afterburner bonus even less. I would suggest bumping up the role bonus to "175% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage" across the whole Sansha line up. Either that or dropping the damage bonus and giving them all an extra turret slot. True to all of that, i am not even to mention cruor dps... |
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Silivar Karkun
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 14:56:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Meytal wrote:CCP Rise wrote:As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. This is why people are talking about the Gila and Rattlesnake; you said each Guristas ships not just the Worm. And it's a horrible idea for the reasons already mentioned; it adds an impossible-to-balance situation regarding sentry drones, which I think you guys could use a little less of. Why is this impossible to balance? The ship goes from 7.5 effective drones to 8, assuming theres a restriction capping it at 2 active drones. Quote: What about using Guristas to solve other real drone problems, instead of rehashing a tired, old buff: time to apply damage to target. If drones could be on target almost as quickly as they are launched, that would go a long way to giving Guristas a very useful drone buff.
There's no reason guristas needs to solve this instead of it being fixed for all drones.
the Rattlesnake is a brick, now that brick has 2 overpowered sentries, suddenly, take in account the drone bay of the Rattlesnake is unchanged, that thing would become a mini carrier, now imagine a fleet of them doing spidertanking and deploying each one 2 drones, subcapital slowcats (?) |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
656
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 15:12:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:Batelle wrote:Meytal wrote:CCP Rise wrote:As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. This is why people are talking about the Gila and Rattlesnake; you said each Guristas ships not just the Worm. And it's a horrible idea for the reasons already mentioned; it adds an impossible-to-balance situation regarding sentry drones, which I think you guys could use a little less of. Why is this impossible to balance? The ship goes from 7.5 effective drones to 8, assuming theres a restriction capping it at 2 active drones. Quote: What about using Guristas to solve other real drone problems, instead of rehashing a tired, old buff: time to apply damage to target. If drones could be on target almost as quickly as they are launched, that would go a long way to giving Guristas a very useful drone buff.
There's no reason guristas needs to solve this instead of it being fixed for all drones. the Rattlesnake is a brick, now that brick has 2 overpowered sentries, suddenly, take in account the drone bay of the Rattlesnake is unchanged, that thing would become a mini carrier, now imagine a fleet of them doing spidertanking and deploying each one 2 drones, subcapital slowcats (?)
well if they follow the worm pattern .. they will bonus heavies only Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
250
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 15:32:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Quote:well if they follow the worm pattern .. they will bonus heavies only
I think that a possible RS bonus will apply to sentries and heavies alike, but the drone bay will go to sth like 125mbit storage. Also, Rise has said that the guristas role bonus is not chained to 2 drones only as we have seen in the Worm, so we might get 3 or 4 bonused drones for the hull with a different role bonus percentage.
The concept is indeed very nice. It will differentiate Guristas from other drone ships enough to make it viable/desirable, while bringing some new tactics to gameplay both for brawling and gang support. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
656
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 16:07:00 -
[1214] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Quote:well if they follow the worm pattern .. they will bonus heavies only I think that a possible RS bonus will apply to sentries and heavies alike, but the drone bay will go to sth like 125mbit storage. Also, Rise has said that the guristas role bonus is not chained to 2 drones only as we have seen in the Worm, so we might get 3 or 4 bonused drones for the hull with a different role bonus percentage. The concept is indeed very nice. It will differentiate Guristas from other drone ships enough to make it viable/desirable, while bringing some new tactics to gameplay both for brawling and gang support.
well it would make no sense to bonus sentries .. the design intent is clearly for brawling only .. keeping it to 2 or 3 drones max will prevent using off bonused drones i.e. sentries ... so only armour based gallente ships will be sentry boats Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
250
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 16:10:00 -
[1215] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: well it would make no sense to bonus sentries .. the design intent is clearly for brawling only .. keeping it to 2 or 3 drones max will prevent using off bonused drones i.e. sentries ... so only armour based gallente ships will be sentry boats
Why? With no damage projection or tracking bonuses for drones, and no application of projection bonuses to missiles, sentries in a RS hull would serve very well as an alternative to heavies in brawling or fleet use. Having limited bandwidth but no sentry bonus would kill the hull (we already have 10 BS T1/faction/pirate hulls that can put out 5 sentries, with or without bonuses). |
Anya Klibor
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
660
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 16:46:00 -
[1216] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful. That certainly doesn't mean you are required to fit missiles and seeing Worms with Neutralizers rather than missiles wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and I wanted to mention that the Worm missile bonus absolutely DOES affect rockets.
Name me one ship that doesn't get max performance out of the accompanying skills being maxxed.
Go ahead, I can wait.
EDIT:
For all of you saying that the Rattlesnake and Gila will probably be able to field a full flight of drones and there's nothign saying otherwise, let me quote the OP for you:
CCP Rise wrote:This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
Bolded relevant portions. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2972
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 16:55:00 -
[1217] - Quote
Anya Klibor wrote:Bolded relevant portions. Rattlesnake with two heavy drones and possibly a +50% thermal/kinetic missile bonus. Run (don't walk) to Jita and put it up for sale now... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
250
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 16:56:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Anya Klibor wrote:
For all of you saying that the Rattlesnake and Gila will probably be able to field a full flight of drones and there's nothign saying otherwise, let me quote the OP for you:
I don't think that anyone called for a full flight. Here is what you are looking for.
CCP Rise wrote:Ashley Animus wrote:There would be no need to continue the 300% drone bonus on the gila and rattlesnake. Serpentis and Angel ships also don't have a consistant bonus for their damage.
Daredevil 200% Vigilant 75% Vindicator 37.5%
Dramiel 100% Cynabal 25% ROF and 10% damage per level Machariel 25% ROF and 5% damage per level
The only consistant ones were sansha and blood and now sansha is leaving blood behind on that too it seems. ^^
Bolded the relevant parts.
|
Batelle
HOMELE55
2089
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 17:23:00 -
[1219] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Ashley Animus wrote:There would be no need to continue the 300% drone bonus on the gila and rattlesnake. Serpentis and Angel ships also don't have a consistant bonus for their damage.
Daredevil 200% Vigilant 75% Vindicator 37.5%
Dramiel 100% Cynabal 25% ROF and 10% damage per level Machariel 25% ROF and 5% damage per level
The only consistant ones were sansha and blood and now sansha is leaving blood behind on that too it seems. ^^
Yeah, but they also use different sizes of turrets and have different numbers of them. Of course you wouldn't have to give everything a 300% damage bonus, but doing this along with resitricting to two max drones is a very sensible way to make sure we have the same effect without having something stupid like 20 effective warriors coming out of a gila.
So unless you just plan on leaving the drone bays untouched on the gila/snake and leaving the 50% bonus, there's no other clearly logical way to implement the "fewer but stronger" drones. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
251
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 17:35:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Just quoted what Rise hinted at.
Right now, the worm gets a double limitation to its drone bonuses.
1. Bandwidth (limiting effective bandwidth to 10mbit) 2. Drone type (limiting the bonus to scout drones only)
There is no arbitrary hull limit on the number of drones you can field (since its not needed). When we do get to Gila or the RS though, an arbitrary limit might be the only way to keep the ships balanced. If not, we are going to get a Drone type limit that chains the hull to a particular drone type (for example, scout/medium drones in the Gila and heavy/sentry drones to the RS). |
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Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 17:35:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:I had a whole post prepared about lore, flavour, uniqueness and power that combines to make the pirate ships but instead:
- Sansha needs work - Cruor needs Minmatarbonus changed to: 20% range to modules requiring propulsion jamming skill per level - Worm, DD, Dram are fine
TL,DR: Cruor needs web and scram bonus to balance low mobility.
Cruor bonuses are fine as they are. Even if the general EVE-Player doesn't get it, in terms of Frigate 1v1 (or whatever) it will whack anything that isn't: A Keres, a lucky Blaster DD, a Rail DD.
And Worm & Succubus will probably be 'goodfights'.
The Cruor is, at is stands, a highly mobile *BRAWLER*. Highly mobile because it will use an MWD. You won't be able to kite it, cause anything closer than 26 kilometers will get webbed, and unless the base velocity of the webbed ship is somewhar at 7km/s, the Cruor will close in. Once the Cruor is close, it activates it's NOSFERATUS, not neuts, NOSFERATUS and will drain 10 cap per second with a nos-cycle hitting the enemy every 1.5 (read: 1 or 2) seconds. Normal EVE Players will now say the following: 'But, NOS range is lower than scram range, you will get scramkited!'
The obvious answer to this is: l2p, if you want to bring a Cruor into solo pvp in the first place, take some more ISK into your hand and bling that *****. For an average of ~25 to 30m Isk you will be able to purchase A-Type Small NOS. They outrange scramblers by a good amount, so only linked up ships or ships with a good chunk of scramrange bonus are able to 'scramkite' you. In which case you're just like 'whatever', load Scorch and blast them with 160 dps.
Conclusion: If a well fit Cruor ever gets on top of your frigate, there is exactly ONE good reaction: Overheat everything and pray to the Gallente Gods that you win the fight.
Also:
Dramiel is NOT fine. Dramiel was popular back then because of it's high mobility, and some other stuff like good damage at above average ranges for frigates.
A nerf happened, where the Dram lost a good chunk of fittingspace, took a slight hit to mobility, and is unchanged since then. A change happened to ALL THE OTHER ships in it's class, most notably to 'Tech 1 Frigates', and recently, INTERCEPTORS.
There is now NO reason at all to fly a Dramiel anymore if you have some common Sense (and some edge-cases where no Ceptors can enter a Novice in FW).
Interceptors warp FASTER, are immune to BUBBLES, are roughly equally mobile AND have tackling bonuses. Where an Ares warps through a heavily bubbled Gatecamp like it doesn't give a daaaaayyyyuuuuumn, a Dramiel will be locked up an vaporized.
Where a Firetail gives you damn good bang for it's buck, you'll have to dish ~200m ISK into a Dramiel to have a *slightly better* Firetail. And if you want to make it reasonably better than a Firetail, you're looking into an Investment of ~500m for the mods just to get your impslots free of Genocores and/or %PG / %CPU imps so you can put some Pirate Imps on there.
Dramiel needs a rework. You listen, Rise? Look at it. It looks good on paper, but in the new surrounding of updated frigates it's just a bad mixup of some more dedicated - and by far cheaper - other hulls.
Give it more fitting, cut some velocity, and maybe put a slight dash of more DPS into it. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2091
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 17:58:00 -
[1222] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Just quoted what Rise hinted at.
Right now, the worm gets a double limitation to its drone bonuses.
1. Bandwidth (limiting effective bandwidth to 10mbit) 2. Drone type (limiting the bonus to scout drones only)
There is no arbitrary hull limit on the number of drones you can field (since its not needed). When we do get to Gila or the RS though, an arbitrary limit might be the only way to keep the ships balanced. If not, we are going to get a Drone type limit that chains the hull to a particular drone type (for example, scout/medium drones in the Gila and heavy/sentry drones to the RS).
Gila/Snake 50% damage bonus as normal. 50mbit bandwidth 250% damage/hp bonus to heavy and sentry drones (and logi drone heal amount plox). drone bay unchanged.
7.5 effective drones no matter what type is used (not 8 ). The heavy/sentry bonus just means it can carry tons of extra drones. Same dps, net effect increased drone bay (well why the hell not). No need to specifically limit # of drones. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
76
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:12:00 -
[1223] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: if you are worried about the meta 1-5 NOS range, well use the deadspace type-a one - haz 15.6km range.
which adds 46 mil to its price as mandatory requirement, all the other frigates don't absolutely need faction mods to function properly although I can't find the quote, I remember some ccp saying that ships are balanced on tech 2 mods and not faction
Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Exactly the opposite - Tengu's AB speed forms a huge portion of her tank. Try to hit the ship at full speed, then web it and try to hit it again. You'll notice it's taking a bucketloads of damage more. That's why an elite frigate with web is her worst enemy in pve, but at the same time, it makes her pretty much immune to battleships.
yes it is a significant part of the tank because it can be moving all the time also a 100mn fitted tengu has either about 80k ehp buffer or around a thousand dps active tank with a LSB neither of those things the phantasm will be able to reach no matter the amount of money put on it (maybe with estamels invul lol) also to actually make use of speed tanking like that you need to be moving a lot with guns that only have ~20km range for pulses or terrible tracking for beams and pretty bad ~300dps for both its just really unpractical Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
252
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:18:00 -
[1224] - Quote
Quote:Gila/Snake 50% damage bonus as normal. 50mbit bandwidth 250% damage/hp bonus to heavy and sentry drones (and logi drone heal amount plox). drone bay unchanged.
7.5 effective drones no matter what type is used (not 8 Cry). The heavy/sentry bonus just means it can carry tons of extra drones. Same dps, net effect increased drone bay (well why the hell not). No need to specifically limit # of drones.
The problem with the drone bay is that if you leave it as is then you encourage blobbing drone assist. If you think about it, a RS like the one you described would be able to field 12 sets of sentry drones. Thats the equivalent of a 1500mbit drone bay for sentries. At the same time, the big HP bonus would make RS sentries very resistant to removal (SBs or bombing runs). And the big damage bonus would circumvent the recent drone assist nerf (by moving the limit from 50 to 187.5 sentries).
I think that we are going to see something like this if the 300% is applied:
Gila
Gallente Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Caldari Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light and medium combat drone damage and hitpoints
Bandwidth: 20mbit Drone Bay: 50mbit
RS
Gallente Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Caldari Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 300% bonus to heavy and sentry combat drone damage and hitpoints
Bandwidth: 50mbit Drone Bay: 125mbit |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:21:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:elitatwo wrote: if you are worried about the meta 1-5 NOS range, well use the deadspace type-a one - haz 15.6km range. which adds 46 mil to its price as mandatory requirement, all the other frigates don't absolutely need faction mods to function properly although I can't find the quote, I remember some ccp saying that ships are balanced on tech 2 mods and not faction
A good Daredevil will need a Faction Web. No, a Blaster-Daredevil ain't a good Daredevil. A good Dramiel (as pointed out earlier) will need a few faction / deadspace mods.
Also, if only using Tech 2 mods, a Cruor will still be a pretty nice ship - not for solo, but for gangs. It brings longrange webs (where you would have to bring, say, a Hyena - which then adds NOTHING to the gang) so it can catch stuff, and f necessary, close in and deal some 200 dps with Multi, 220 with conflag. And, if closed in, it can also unleash some neuting pressure (for which you would have to bring a Sentinel) between 10 and 40 cap/s, depending on highslot layout.
|
Batelle
HOMELE55
2096
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:41:00 -
[1226] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Quote:Gila/Snake 50% damage bonus as normal. 50mbit bandwidth 150% damage/hp bonus to heavy and sentry drones (and logi drone heal amount plox). drone bay unchanged.
7.5 effective drones no matter what type is used (not 8 Cry). The heavy/sentry bonus just means it can carry tons of extra drones. Same dps, net effect increased drone bay (well why the hell not). No need to specifically limit # of drones. The problem with the drone bay is that if you leave it as is then you encourage blobbing drone assist. If you think about it, a RS like the one you described would be able to field 12 sets of sentry drones. Thats the equivalent of a 1500mbit drone bay for sentries. At the same time, the big HP bonus would make RS sentries very resistant to removal (SBs or bombing runs). And the big damage bonus would circumvent the recent drone assist nerf (by moving the limit from 50 to 187.5 sentries).
Neither of which seem like particularly important problems (to me). Obviously making them resistant to removal is one of the intentions of the design. Furthermore, so what? 8 sets of sentries instead of 3. whatever. Can't kill the drones? kill the ship. That's how it usually works. But yeah, maybe a slight reduction in drone bay. but not too much. None of this "175m3" crap. Maybe like 250-300.
Drone assist doesn't matter much in this context. Sure combined with the large supply of sentry drones you have the potential for a monster fleet ship, but you whelp one fleet of em and suddenly there aren't enough replacements in Jita. Would be a gigantic buff to goonsec plex runners though. Regardless I'm less concerned with a pirate BS fleet doctrine being op simple because of supply issues (not like navy ships which may as well be infinite). You could tone it down to 75mbit bandwidth with a 75% bonus to heavies/sentries, this gives you 7.85 effective drones, but then you get issues with using 2 super-bonused sentries alongside 2 mediums and one light, which would also be hilarious.
Edited my earlier post because I wrote 250% when i meant 150% "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
252
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:41:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Quote:i think that would be a mistake ... it gives too much versatility .. and kind of impedes on gallente droneboats..
How?
1. The double limitation kills versatility (no utility or ewar drone HP bonuses, no ability to field a flight of med utility/ewar in gila, or heavy utility/ewar in RS. 2. There is no bonus to drone damage projection (range) or damage application (tracking, speed). Thats where the Gallente drone boats excel.
Batelle wrote: Edited my earlier post because I wrote 250% when i meant 150%
Yeah, that changes it, you can have a bigger drone bay if you go for 150%. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2096
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:44:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote: Gila Gallente Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage Caldari Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances Role Bonus: 200% bonus to light and medium combat drone damage and hitpoints
Bandwidth: 30mbit Drone Bay: 75mbit
RS Gallente Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage Caldari Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances Role Bonus: 300% bonus to heavy and sentry combat drone damage and hitpoints
Bandwidth: 50mbit Drone Bay: 125mbit
Gila would be complete garbage in that form. 6 effective mediums and 4.5 effective launchers is pretty bad. Only complaint on the snake is the lack of bonused lights. 125m3 drone bay is UNJUSTIFIABLY SMALL. Like.. the drone bay situations is way worse and way less versatile than the current snake. Make it 250m3 at least. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
252
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:47:00 -
[1229] - Quote
Batelle wrote: Gila would be complete garbage in that form. 9 effective mediums and 4.5 effective launchers is pretty bad dps. Only complaint on the snake is the lack of bonused lights. 125m3 drone bay is UNJUSTIFIABLY SMALL. Like.. the drone bay situations is way worse and way less versatile than the current snake. Make it 250m3 at least.
Thats 9 effective mediums (3x10mbit bandwidth @300% damage/HP.
|
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
465
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:14:00 -
[1230] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:CCP Rise, how about looking again at Sansha, the afterburner bonus will be useless on at least one of their ships, and the Phantasm is now forced to use one completely changing the current playstyle for the worse in my opinion.
I've been impressed in the past by how you have altered ships for the better after listening to feedback, and so I have faith you will always get to a good solution.
I've been editing the EveHQ database and come up with some rough designs of my own for what I think would be a much better direction for Sansha. I compared the stats against other ships of equal class and although a rought draft, these would fit in well to the current meta.
Also as posted previously, this is the matching concept for the Succubus.
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 5M (+1), 2L (-1); 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers Fittings: 58 PWG (+14), 195 CPU (+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650 / 550 / 540 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450 / 210000 / 2.14 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (-20) / 3.5 / 965000 / 4.68s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km (+2) / 650 / 6 (+1) Sensor strength: 16 (+3) Signature radius: 38 (+5)
Finally the phantasm, I did not have too much time to play around with altering the stats, but from experience I would simply suggest adding an extra mid slot which was missing, and keeping it's damage at its current respectable level. The extra mid slot will allow it to perform it's role of webbing and scramming the enemy whilst still being able to fit a respectable shield tank.
I think these proposals would put Sansha in a very good place. I am not 100% on the Nightmare still, I think it may need its stats reducing slightly further, but this is simply a rough draft. And I hope these proposals may be of interest. ALL OF THIS It makes the sansha in a great mix of Rokh and Abaddon with the damage potential of a vindi to give the amarr a heavy brawler pirate race while the blood raiders can remain the skirmisher types
This. SO much this.
The problem with the AB theme is that it runs counter to the entire idea of the ship. IT works amazingly on the Tengu because the Tengu doesn't have the problems that the Sansha does. The Tengu's DPS doesn't change based on the Tengu's velocity. It doesn't need capacitor to use its DPS. It can use that extra speed to full advantage.
The Sansha ships are useless in trying to apply this bonus. The AB bonus puts an incentive to keep signature radius low, so no more shield extenders, or shield rigs else you counter your current bonus. So okay, fine Active tank it, except now that you're perma running the AB, and firing your guns, you've no capacitor left to tank anything.
So, perhaps kiting isn't its use, maybe brawling? Okay, assuming the tracking bonus is enough to assume you can orbit and hit people, that works assuming you're A, not fighting a daredevil, or B, anything with neuts, or C, anything with a tracking disruptor.
Before you could fill the two utility highs with Nos's to keep running, but that is out now, and the fitting room is so poor that you can't fit it either. The range doesn't support the use anyway.
When you look at this, you have to consider your other options. Why would you fly a succubus when you can fly a DareDevil with the CCP admitted almost broken 90% webs?
The oversize AB works on Caldari ships because they aren't tied to tracking or capacitor. Energy turrets are both very highly tied to tracking and capacitor.
Then, also, you have to wonder what purpose is there in creating yet another kiting frigate? Why would anyone fly it over an combat interceptor or say Navy Slicer? There are opportunity costs to be considered.
Looking at the Phantasm, why would you ever fly it over the Vagabond? There is already a kiting/ range based meta (shield deimos, vagabonds, zealots [sorta]). Why would you ever pick a phantasm over these based on an AB bonus?
Likewise, why would you ever pick the Succubus over ships that are 90% as fast or faster and better at their jobs than this boat which is designed against itself? |
|
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
118
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 21:04:00 -
[1231] - Quote
Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?
All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.
Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.
And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel. -áFear The Tribes |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 21:37:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?
All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.
Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.
And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.
They are the fastest, have great damage and projection and the best models of the bunch. They have been the best pirate line for ages. People will still fly Drams, Cynabals, and Machs with little to no changes. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1243
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 21:41:00 -
[1233] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?
All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.
Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.
And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.
Yes, you are the only one. The Tears Must Flow |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2104
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 21:48:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote: Thats 9 effective mediums (3x10mbit bandwidth @300% damage/HP), or 15 effective scouts (5x5mbit bandwidth @300% damage/HP). It would make a ridiculous anti-tackle support ship.
Also, you cannot add the bonus to lights in the RS, because if it takes the role bonus it would field a flight of 5 scouts @400% Damage/HP (thats a 20 scout drone equivalent, it would apply crazy damage to small targets and thats a no-no for Battleships). Thats the arbitrary drone limit problem I was talking about earlier....
I don't want a anti-tackle support ship. There's plenty of cheap crap that can do that well already. I want a dps monster.
And of course 20 effective warriors on a rattlesnake is something that should be avoided. I guess having to used unbonused lights is an acceptable weakness, but it would be terrible to give it such a small drone bay that it can't afford to spend any on drones other than sentries/heavies. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 22:02:00 -
[1235] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Ayallah wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?
All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.
Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.
And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel. They are the fastest, have great damage and projection and the best models of the bunch. They have been the best pirate line for ages. People will still fly Drams, Cynabals, and Machs with little to no changes.
1. Style ain't no balance factor. 2. Dramiel has no great damage, and the projection is now the same as on the new Rifter (which is cool, RIFTERRR!!!). 3. Having been the best pirate line doesn't mean it has to be the worst now (at least what we can see right now on frigs). 4. Dramiel is only going to be the fastest under certain conditions, like: If you look at MWD ships.
To 2.: The Dramiel is weak in terms of dps. A Firetail gets a 125% multiplier to it's two turret's damage, a Dramiel gets a 100% multiplier to it's two turrets and a flock of unbonused drones. While the Fall-Off bonus can be seen as some kind of damage bonus (at least projectiles), it favors a more kiting orientated playstyle. However, if you want to kite with autocannons, you have to do it at ranges where it's actually worth doing it, say: Where the opponent can't hit you, AND you dictate range. A Laser-Ship for example will just load scorch and hit you, a Blaster-Ship will load Null and have probably the same damage you do on the edges of falloff. A new Succubus will be roughly as fast as a Dramiel when both fit an afterburner.
Result: If you want to kite, do it long range, like, with Arties. Problems apply: This is where the mwd and point start costing a lot of cap/s, and Interceptors and regular Tech 1 Missile frigates do this just as good or far better. For a fracture of the cost.
If you now look at the fittingspace a Dramiel has, ... boy, have you ever tried fitting one so you actually want to pick that Dramiel rather than a Firetail with the same fit?
If not, i suggest you try.
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
660
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 22:19:00 -
[1236] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?
All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.
Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.
And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.
it does seem to be like a fast rifter now..
DRAMIEL
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 25% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage (was bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking)
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 12.5%(+2.5%) bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to mwd sig penalty reduction
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 3 turrets, 0(-1) launchers Fittings: 37 PWG, 133 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 640(+57) / 500(-82) / 520(+3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 370(+5) / 208000(-26375) / 1.77(+.22) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 410 (-40) / 3.1(-.02) / 950000 / 4.08s(-.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 (-15) / 0 (-20) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 28km(+3km) / 750 / 5 Sensor strength: 11 Signature radius: 30(-2)
with these changes they would be genuine masters of projectiles like they should be .. also clearly shield tanked now not omni tanked like minmatar ships are (firetail has 675hp on both).. slight speed nerf so the mwd bonus isn't OP and also so inties are faster as they should be... removal of launcher and drones as they make no sense the drones here should be on DD really.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
76
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 22:29:00 -
[1237] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote: A good Daredevil will need a Faction Web. No, a Blaster-Daredevil ain't a good Daredevil. A good Dramiel (as pointed out earlier) will need a few faction / deadspace mods.
Also, if only using Tech 2 mods, a Cruor will still be a pretty nice ship - not for solo, but for gangs. It brings longrange webs (where you would have to bring, say, a Hyena - which then adds NOTHING to the gang) so it can catch stuff, and f necessary, close in and deal some 200 dps with Multi, 220 with conflag. And, if closed in, it can also unleash some neuting pressure (for which you would have to bring a Sentinel) between 10 and 40 cap/s, depending on highslot layout.
if someone brought that cruor to my frig fleet id tell him to get into a sentinel instead tracking disruptors are just so much better then long webs in a frig fleet, the sentinel can stay out of web range and has more tank due to t2 resists, while neuting from 31km is so much better then webing from 26 (overheated t2)
a sentinel in a frig fleet is gonna protect the fleet from damage with its TEs while being able to slow down fast frigates at longer ranges by turning off their prop mod against bigger targets you don't need the long web since your frigs are faster anyway there once again the stronger neuting power reigns supreme
a cruor will merely web the target a few seconds before the rest of the fleet will get its tackle on it and will have to stay in web range to apply its inferior neuts Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 23:13:00 -
[1238] - Quote
The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit. They have the same tracking bonus but the Dram gets an additional falloff bonus. Speed, Agility, Scan Res, Sensor Strength, signature radius and raw cap also all favor the Dram and in some cases by quite a bit. For that you lose some eHP, 50 Calibration, some cap recharge and a little fitting. The Dram is a flat out better ship than the Firetail. The Firetail is just cheaper. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 00:53:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit. Where are you getting these numbers from I have to ask?...
With the same fit the Dramiel does less damage than the Firetail. Even including full damage from the drones, which are not a reliable method of damage dealing, the firetail still achieves 86% of the Dramiels dps with pure autocannon fire alone.
I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from.
|
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 01:05:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Lucine Delacourt wrote:The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit. Where are you getting these numbers from I have to ask?... With the same fit the Dramiel does less damage than the Firetail. Even including full damage from the drones, which are not a reliable method of damage dealing, the firetail still achieves 86% of the Dramiels dps with pure autocannon fire alone. Also lets not forget also that the firetail can fit more damage mods and rigs than a dramiel. I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from.
2 AC's and a Rocket launcher on both and 3 Hob 2's on the Dram.
Dram = 207 DPS Firetail = 163 DPS
Roughly 1/3 more. Now rigs and fitting choices can vary those numbers but that is the base DPS. |
|
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
253
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 01:12:00 -
[1241] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from.
Did you notice the difference in falloff?
Here is a table for DPS, no rocket launchers. http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/06-Mar-1403-10-27_zps6fac086b.png |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 01:16:00 -
[1242] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Lucine Delacourt wrote:The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit. Where are you getting these numbers from I have to ask?... With the same fit the Dramiel does less damage than the Firetail. Even including full damage from the drones, which are not a reliable method of damage dealing, the firetail still achieves 86% of the Dramiels dps with pure autocannon fire alone. Also lets not forget also that the firetail can fit more damage mods and rigs than a dramiel. I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from. 2 AC's and a Rocket launcher on both and 3 Hob 2's on the Dram. Dram = 207 DPS Firetail = 163 DPS Roughly 1/3 more. Now rigs and fitting choices can vary those numbers but that is the base DPS. You always compare ships with damage mods as they will always be fitted so that is where you are going wrong. Both ships can comfortably fit 2 gyrostabs, and possibly rigs, but to be safe will calulate with two gyros.
Dram = 265 DPS (206 without drones) Firetail = 229 DPS
Therefore including drones the dramiel is doing 15% more damage than the firetail, without drones it is doing around 10% less. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 01:43:00 -
[1243] - Quote
Not all fits allow for one, let alone 2 damage mods. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1217
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 03:40:00 -
[1244] - Quote
Could be worse ... I was expecting Guristas to be rebalanced for ECM + Hybrids.
Not entirely sure what I think about the 2 super drone idea.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
423
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 04:00:00 -
[1245] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Could be worse ... I was expecting Guristas to be rebalanced for ECM + Hybrids.
Not entirely sure what I think about the 2 super drone idea.
Wouldnt that just basically be Caldari? I know Caldari use mostly Missiles, but they do plenty of Hybrids, or is it just that they dont have it on the same ships? |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
545
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 09:18:00 -
[1246] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:it's a Worm, it has missiles. it doesn't particularly care what range you're at. Ok, let's rewrite it comprehensively : You are stating that it will be easy for a frigate to neutralize one drone dps, hence the Worm is bad (unless I misunderstood you).
I answer that this is not true, because you need to use one of your mid slot (at least) to do that. Hence, the only case you won't put you a a large controle disadvantage will be if you have 5 mid slots, yet you'll only reduce dps by 25% and it will still be huge.
So, eventhough having two drones make them relatively vulnerable to EWAR, I don't see any situation where this advantage can be used, because a drone is only one out of three weapons of the Worm (EWAR is still 3 times less effective against it than against any turret ship) so you'll lose more with one mid slot for this slight advantage than by using it to tank or kill the Worm itself.
Bah, no one ever predicted how good or bad drones would become on these forums anyway. My bet is that the Worm will be amazingly powerful, if not OP, but not more than the Hookbill or Hawk can already be. The question of the other gurista ships though will be for another thread, because we don't know what Rise will do with them yet and speculation is pointless. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1326
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 10:28:00 -
[1247] - Quote
Rise, after your last statement about the cruor. So homogenized bonuses are not a good excuse to make a ship nearly useless and have no role that is not outdone by the EWar frigs.
Seriously, If one thing I think you guys have been doign wrong in tiercide, is too much designer approach to it, and too less engineering thinking on it. Does nto matter if looks cool if it makes no sense and its useless!
There is a reason why apple makes cellphones and not combat vehicles! Design over functionality is paramaut when you want to sell things to idiots that do not need them, not to make tools effective. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 12:10:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit. They have the same tracking bonus but the Dram gets an additional falloff bonus. Speed, Agility, Scan Res, Sensor Strength, signature radius and raw cap also all favor the Dram and in some cases by quite a bit. For that you lose some eHP, 50 Calibration, some cap recharge and a little fitting. The Dram is a flat out better ship than the Firetail. The Firetail is just cheaper.
The 'a little fitting' you lose on the Dram compared to a Firetail puts you into the misery of necessity to waste slots for fitting-mods.
Also, here's your bonuses you bring up: Scan Res, Sensor Strength, Raw Cap. The others are basically 'Mobility'. Scan Res is a useless factor after you have achieved a lock. Sensor Strength gives you a slight dash of better performance in case of a few EC-300 on top of you, ... but saying the Dramiel is stronger because in case of ECCM it is slightly less likely to become useless is a little dumb. Raw Cap doesn't help you at all, unless you're a Capital.
Now, to the bonuses the Firetail has over the Dramiel:
-Price (not a balance factor, but definately a factor when considering what ship you will take out) -Superior damage from the turrets -Superior fitting -Superior capacitor
Let me give you an example. On my alt, I used to fly a Scram-Kite Firetail, which's setup is basically 2x 280mm Arty, double web, scram, ab, small repper, damage control, damage mod and rigs to flavor (tracking, or rep amount, or speed, or whatever).
I adapted this scheme onto a Dramiel, and i really liked the Dramiel that way, however, it was just a slight upgrade from the Firetail, with less DPS from it's turrets than the firetail. I gained 600m/s AB speed, but to be fair, the Firetail was Tech 2 / meta 4, and the Dramiel had to be pimped to even make the goddamn mods fit. With the inferior capacitor, i even had to make a decision: Do i want less tank on this more expensive ship, or do i want more cap and thus less damage?
The decision was made, A-Type Nos, and 250mm Arties. The Falloff bonus was the only thing that made downgrading guns viable, and what i had now was a Dramiel, that did 20 dps more (with drones) that the Firetail and could operate at a range of 1-2 km more while being faster.
For an investment of 200m ISK.
Other good setups with the Firetail: MWD brawl, AB AC brawl, and some other niche uses which it can fulfil, mainly due to it's good fitting space and slot layout.
An MWD Brawl Dramiel is, hands down, utterly stupid, because with the inferior turret DPS there are a lot of T1 frigs overwhelming you with ease. AB AC brawl Dramiel is surely having some good uses, but nothing a Firetail couldn't do just as good. Niche-Stuff? Well, if you want to do them in Style, sure, go ahead.
What is a popular Dramiel fit right now is btw a dualrepped capinjected AB Dramiel.
Which is certainly a good fit, one variation of it solo'd a Chremoas (i won't comment on the Chremoas Pilot's decisions now, but he probably knew what he was doing and i'm just missing something).
I'm sure though that a pretty standard (for example scramkite) Firetail can beat it, with relative ease. Hell, i could even take that Dram fit and put it onto the Firetail, no problem. You know: Whatever fits onto the Dram, ... on the Firetail you will have still a lot of room for upgrades.
----> Change Dramiel kthx. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 12:37:00 -
[1249] - Quote
Here's some enlightment for you:
The AB Bonus will boost the ship's speed by a good amount. It will still have the same mass-addition as if it didn't have the bonus, so you are as agile as before, but now with more TOP-Speed. And there we are, at the thing you don't seem to understand properly:
Top Speed. Top means 'Can't get any faster'. But you CAN go slower. There is this speed indicator, where you can click, and boosh, your speed gets changed.
Now, to your proposed weaknesses: TD because of orbit because of tracking because of blabla you don't hit anymore. This is false. The AB bonus will greatly INCREASE your performance against TD ships. How so? If you TD an opponent, you have to make use of TWO areas: The Tracking Forumula and your opponent's mobility. If your opponent is faster than you, you can TD him as you wish, he will still be in the position to apply damage onto you. If you didn't realize that yet i propose you go out there and try some stuff, cause it certainly works. Neuts - Well, Utility high, fit a small NOS. (For the Succubus). Daredevil - Well, a Daredevil has one 90% web. A Succubus gets the very powerful 3-4-3 Slot layout. Free your mind, boy. This thing can be armor tanked now without looking like some sheitfit. Which gives you the possibility of two! webs, which will translate into roughly a 80% web. Now, you have to compare the velocitys both can achieve. A Daredevil is somewhere at 1400-1600 m/s usually with an AB, a Succubus will be somewhere between 1800 and 2000 m/s.
So you have a Daredevil going at ~300m/s, and a Succubus, going at ~200m/s. This is enough velocity to keep his orbit highly elliptical and thus track him.
Also, keep in mind that a Daredevil going for max gank has a tank to be overwhelmed with ease. Heated Conflag, and you'll have a race which the Daredevil isn't so likely to win. Maybe still not the best encounter to go for in a Succubus, but still, 'doable'.
Also, your statement about 'keeping sig low so no shield tank mods' is just false.
All in all, welcome (one of) our new Frigate Overlords, the Succubus! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 12:51:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:If your opponent is faster than you, you can TD him as you wish, he will still be in the position to apply damage onto you. If you didn't realize that yet i propose you go out there and try some stuff, cause it certainly works. Tracking disruptors will kill the succubus's lasers from tracking. Also I am not sure if you realise it, but your high speed is also working against your already low tracking guns.[/quote]
Syrias Bizniz wrote:A Succubus gets the very powerful 3-4-3 Slot layout. Free your mind, boy. This thing can be armor tanked now without looking like some sheitfit. Which gives you the possibility of two! webs, which will translate into roughly a 80% web. So your solution is to fit two webs onto an unbonused ship, (who's afterburner already acts as a counter to your opponents webs anyway), and then fit a poor armour tank with no damage mods so you can barely scratch him? No thanks.
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Also, your statement about 'keeping sig low so no shield tank mods' is just false. You can fit shield mods, but only active tanking shield mods, unless you don't care about speed tanking, which makes little sense on a ship with an afterburner bonus. |
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Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 13:02:00 -
[1251] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:If your opponent is faster than you, you can TD him as you wish, he will still be in the position to apply damage onto you. If you didn't realize that yet i propose you go out there and try some stuff, cause it certainly works. Tracking disruptors will kill the succubus's lasers from tracking. Also I am not sure if you realise it, but your high speed is also working against your already low tracking guns. Syrias Bizniz wrote:A Succubus gets the very powerful 3-4-3 Slot layout. Free your mind, boy. This thing can be armor tanked now without looking like some sheitfit. Which gives you the possibility of two! webs, which will translate into roughly a 80% web. So your solution is to fit two webs onto an unbonused ship, (who's afterburner already acts as a counter to your opponents webs anyway), and then fit a poor armour tank with no damage mods so you can barely scratch him? No thanks. Syrias Bizniz wrote:Also, your statement about 'keeping sig low so no shield tank mods' is just false. You can fit shield mods, but only active tanking shield mods, unless you don't care about speed tanking, which makes little sense on a ship with an afterburner bonus.
First, Succubus lasers are tracking bonused. Second, if you are faster than your opponent, you can easily start moving away from him in a straight line, and move towards him in a straight line. This is called manual piloting. By this movement your transversal velocity towards your opponent will drop rapidly and allow for easy tracking. This is the reason any frigate built for frigate pvp that wants to TD an opponent and then close in is a bad fitting choice. It is viable if you try to punch up a class, say, attacking cruisers in a frig.
Second, yes, two webs onto an 'unbonused ship'. Because two webs is better than one, not because it allows you to counter the opponent's web (as you already stated the AB does kinda already), but because it allows you to DOMINATE your opponent. The idea behind a double web setup is to have the ability to comfortably dictate range in a fight. It also greatly reduces the enemy's ability to GTFO, because his speed will be cut into half AGAIN. It is far easier to get out of scramrange when you have 400-500m/s, than with 200-300m/s.
Third: Armor tank, yes, no dmg mods, no. SAAR, DC II, Heat Sink.
Paperthin tank is not true, since you will be able to dictate range on all those close-range-brawlers while still hitting them in the face with scorch from scram range.
According to my rough calculations you could probably but an A-Type nos onto there, too, so your cap is doing just fine. Haven't run exact numbers on that, but look like it's doable with maybe 1 pg OR cpu rig and maybe genocore imps.
And, of course, you could still shieldtank it. No Dual MSE anymore, but ASB, or MSE, whatever.
Succubus is going to be great, and the AB bonus on it will be the reason why (together with the 3-4-3 layout). |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
322
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 13:45:00 -
[1252] - Quote
Quote:There would be no need to continue the 300% drone bonus on the gila and rattlesnake. Serpentis and Angel ships also don't have a consistant bonus for their damage. This is true. Unfortunately it's not what Rise stated in his post, as has been quoted multiple times. It's fine if they backpedal -- and they should just drop the whole idea to rethink it -- but people have been extending the 300% drone change discussion to the Gila and Rattlesnake because that's what Rise said in his initial post.
The reason this creates an impossible-to-balance situation relates to the recent slowcat nerf, and was spelled out on the first page. You can either be drone-assist for 50 normal sentries from, say, a Domi or an Ishtar, or you can be drone-assist for 50 Rattlesnake sentries for the equivalent of 100-150 normal sentries. You can't balance both successfully, so the situation will need to be revisted. s/sentries/heavies as necessary for brawling range applications (drone-assist does not necessarily need to be in brawling range/danger)
If you reduce the drone bandwidth for heavies to only allow two, then you only get two sentries as well since they have the same bandwidth. If those two sentries are then not likewise buffed, you completely nerf the Rattlesnake as a sentry platform, which hopefully is not their intention.
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
423
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 13:51:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Or, maybe they think that since the drone assist change is a pointless boondoggle anyway, supposedly only really a problem on tracking enhanced hulls that making a line of non tracking enhanced hulls that can get back to similar performance to the previous 10 years wont break the game. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 13:52:00 -
[1254] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:If your opponent is faster than you, you can TD him as you wish, he will still be in the position to apply damage onto you. If you didn't realize that yet i propose you go out there and try some stuff, cause it certainly works. Tracking disruptors will kill the succubus's lasers from tracking. Also I am not sure if you realise it, but your high speed is also working against your already low tracking guns. Syrias Bizniz wrote:A Succubus gets the very powerful 3-4-3 Slot layout. Free your mind, boy. This thing can be armor tanked now without looking like some sheitfit. Which gives you the possibility of two! webs, which will translate into roughly a 80% web. So your solution is to fit two webs onto an unbonused ship, (who's afterburner already acts as a counter to your opponents webs anyway), and then fit a poor armour tank with no damage mods so you can barely scratch him? No thanks. Syrias Bizniz wrote:Also, your statement about 'keeping sig low so no shield tank mods' is just false. You can fit shield mods, but only active tanking shield mods, unless you don't care about speed tanking, which makes little sense on a ship with an afterburner bonus. First, Succubus lasers are tracking bonused. Second, if you are faster than your opponent, you can easily start moving away from him in a straight line, and move towards him in a straight line. This is called manual piloting. By this movement your transversal velocity towards your opponent will drop rapidly and allow for easy tracking. This is the reason any frigate built for frigate pvp that wants to TD an opponent and then close in is a bad fitting choice. It is viable if you try to punch up a class, say, attacking cruisers in a frig. Second, yes, two webs onto an 'unbonused ship'. Because two webs is better than one, not because it allows you to counter the opponent's web (as you already stated the AB does kinda already), but because it allows you to DOMINATE your opponent. The idea behind a double web setup is to have the ability to comfortably dictate range in a fight. It also greatly reduces the enemy's ability to GTFO, because his speed will be cut into half AGAIN. It is far easier to get out of scramrange when you have 400-500m/s, than with 200-300m/s. Third: Armor tank, yes, no dmg mods, no. SAAR, DC II, Heat Sink. Paperthin tank is not true, since you will be able to dictate range on all those close-range-brawlers while still hitting them in the face with scorch from scram range. According to my rough calculations you could probably but an A-Type nos onto there, too, so your cap is doing just fine. Haven't run exact numbers on that, but look like it's doable with maybe 1 pg OR cpu rig and maybe genocore imps. And, of course, you could still shieldtank it. No Dual MSE anymore, but ASB, or MSE, whatever. Succubus is going to be great, and the AB bonus on it will be the reason why (together with the 3-4-3 layout). The Succubus will be a fairly effective ship no doubt, although you don't seem to understand how the afterburner bonus will affect the playstyle. No one, and I mean no one unless they want to get laughed out of fleet, will dual web it. I wouldn't be surprised if their are actually people trying to fly with no web, (although again tracking is a major problem), as a scram and an afterburner bonus will be all you need.
Also you do not seem to understand how the fundamental design of the ship is in contrast to the bonus. Yes you can fly in a straight line to help your own lasers tracking, but then you just lost your AB speed tanking bonus as your transversal is also at 0. Same scenario when fitting a buffer shield tank with rigs, you just damaged your speed tanking bonus again. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 14:12:00 -
[1255] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: The Succubus will be a fairly effective ship no doubt, although you don't seem to understand how the afterburner bonus will affect the playstyle. No one, and I mean no one unless they want to get laughed out of fleet, will dual web it. I wouldn't be surprised if their are actually people trying to fly with no web, (although again tracking is a major problem), as a scram and an afterburner bonus will be all you need.
Also you do not seem to understand how the fundamental design of the ship is in contrast to the bonus. Yes you can fly in a straight line to help your own lasers tracking, but then you just lost your AB speed tanking bonus as your transversal is also at 0. Same scenario when fitting a buffer shield tank with rigs, you just damaged your speed tanking bonus again.
I have trouble finding the reason where the sole purpose of the AB bonus is to 'increase the Succubus speed and sig tank'. It's a mobility bonus, not more, not less. You can utilize it in different ways, for example in flying it with an AB where everyone else would put an MWD on their ship (doesn't have to be a succubus), and then i can see how you're gonna get 'laughed out of fleet' because your 2km/s make you fall behind everyone else.
I can see a dualpropped Succubus with the MWD for high velocitys, and then Web & Scram for tackling and AB for sustain while counterscrammed.
I can see a Scramkiting Succubus as described earlier.
I can see a no-ab succubus totally forfeiting one of it's bonuses and going mwd kite with small beams or scorch.
I can see a lot of stuff, and most of it makes the ship powerful because it has the AB bonus AND the versatility of a 3-4-3 layout.
And I can also see how you seem to make the AB bonus a defining pigeonhole everything else has to get bent around to make it work, when the ship would be fine even without the AB bonus just through the slots.
You're in FW, have you never seen Armor Merlins? Have you never seen Assault frigates without an MWD? It has a sig bonus towards MWD! You gotta utilize it! Same for Interceptors? Rocket-Condor? Armor-Breacher? Armor-Hookbill?
You're seeing this one bonus and feel like it HAS to be utilized in the way it is given, which is: High Speed without Sig penalty. Even if so, why not put a MSE on there? Still, great improved tank, at the cost of just a little tad of signature.
This is just not true. You can fly it in a lot of different ways, and the AB bonus gives it tons and tons of versatility.
Also, maybe you should consider not fleeting up with your mates anymore if they 'laugh you out of fleet' for not strictly follow their narrow minded fitting policies. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 14:40:00 -
[1256] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Edit: Oh, and flying it with no web because the AB bonus is all you ever need is false. It appears to be true under the premise that every fight you take is a full committment of both combatants. Every reasonable pilot would try to disengage in the event of impending doom, and while being webbed, and without webbing back, you will drop to some 700-800m/s, ... while your opponent is at 1.2km/s or so. You seem to be misunderstanding. The propulsion bonus is 100%, the web will cut overall speed by 60%. So you are still going to be going quite a bit faster than the ships base speed even when webbed. If the opponent is MWD fitted then you can simply scram him and he cannot escape even with you webbed.
Also you can fit pretty much anything on any ship, that doesn't mean that it will be effective though if the bonuses don't complement the fit, that is the art of ship fitting. You use the best hull for the job you are trying to achieve. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 14:50:00 -
[1257] - Quote
Haha, okay, you seem to not-understand the bonus.
It's a multiplier to the speed bonus over the normal speed that an afterburner grants.
Normal Speed is usually somewhere around 350 to 400. With an AB on, this speed usually gets 1000 to 1200.
So the difference an AB grants is roughly 800m/s.
Double this, and you're at a speedbonus of 1600m/s.
Add this to the base speed, and you're at 2000m/s.
Take 60% off, and you're at 800m/s.
Now look at the other ship, if it's AB it will be above 1km/s if NOT webbed.
If it's an MWD ship, as you said, ...
You will have caught a bad pilot. No matter how you twist it, either he chose an MWD brawler to engage an AB brawler, or he flew an MWD kite ship and got hardtackled by a 2km/s ship.
Edit: I have to admit, a Dual-Prop Succubus could do that without the other pilot being utterly bad, ... But then you're either looking at some 'paperthin armor tank' as you stated in some posts earlier, or at a Shield-Tanked Succubus, which would come down to a 1-slot-tank (+ DC II ofc), ... which is eiher as paper thin as an armor variant, ... or gets the 'Sigbloom' you try to avoid so hard in your postings. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 14:56:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Take 60% off, and you're at 800m/s. Exactly, as you just calculated you are still going a decent speed even when webbed. Much faster than any ships base speed, and you will even give some of the slower AB fitted ships a close run. Also let's not forget all the speed modifications you can add to make your ship even faster. To be honest any faster than 800m/s and your guns won't be tracking too good anyway.
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Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 15:00:00 -
[1259] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Take 60% off, and you're at 800m/s. Exactly, as you just calculated you are still going a decent speed even when webbed. Much faster than any ships base speed, and you will even give some of the slower AB fitted ships a close run. Also let's not forget all the speed modifications you can add to make your ship even faster. To be honest any faster than 800m/s and your guns won't be tracking too good anyway.
Slower AB fitted ships, such as the Incursus with it's 1km/s?
Also, taking speedmods into your Succubus will result in less DPS or Tank or Damage Application, all that while earlier you doomed a dualweb succubus as a laughable joke, while it fit basically 1 midslot to take EVEN MORE ADVANTAGE of it's mobility.
You're being a little bit double edged here.
Edit: And Tracking is, as mentioned earlier, the least of the Succubus' problems.
Remember your counter to manual piloting? Yeah, guess what, of course your enemy hits you when you're flying away from him, but as the TD use suggests, he will also hit you if you keep orbiting him... |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
567
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 15:29:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote: You're in FW, have you never seen Armor Merlins? Have you never seen Assault frigates without an MWD? It has a sig bonus towards MWD! You gotta utilize it! Same for Interceptors? Rocket-Condor? Armor-Breacher? Armor-Hookbill?
those are pretty much all a result of webs and unbonused tracking disruptors being overpowered |
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Batelle
HOMELE55
2122
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 15:45:00 -
[1261] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote: You're in FW, have you never seen Armor Merlins? Have you never seen Assault frigates without an MWD? It has a sig bonus towards MWD! You gotta utilize it! Same for Interceptors? Rocket-Condor? Armor-Breacher? Armor-Hookbill?
those are pretty much all a result of webs and unbonused tracking disruptors being overpowered
people have been calling webs OP quite a bit recently. Where does this notion come from? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
567
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 15:47:00 -
[1262] - Quote
Batelle wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote: You're in FW, have you never seen Armor Merlins? Have you never seen Assault frigates without an MWD? It has a sig bonus towards MWD! You gotta utilize it! Same for Interceptors? Rocket-Condor? Armor-Breacher? Armor-Hookbill?
those are pretty much all a result of webs and unbonused tracking disruptors being overpowered people have been calling webs OP quite a bit recently. Where does this notion come from?
the fact that no frigate except an extremely fast one with a silly mwd sig bonus is anything but a joke in a proper fight, and the fact that armour tanking a 2 lowslot frigate is actually effective, just because you need to get as many mids as possible for MORE WEBS. -60% is way too much. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 16:24:00 -
[1263] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Batelle wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote: You're in FW, have you never seen Armor Merlins? Have you never seen Assault frigates without an MWD? It has a sig bonus towards MWD! You gotta utilize it! Same for Interceptors? Rocket-Condor? Armor-Breacher? Armor-Hookbill?
those are pretty much all a result of webs and unbonused tracking disruptors being overpowered people have been calling webs OP quite a bit recently. Where does this notion come from? the fact that no frigate except an extremely fast one with a silly mwd sig bonus is anything but a joke in a proper fight, and the fact that armour tanking a 2 lowslot frigate is actually effective, just because you need to get as many mids as possible for MORE WEBS. -60% is way too much.
Indeed, Mids > All on frigs. And yes, webs are powerful.
But the reason they are probably lies in the nature of the players. They want to have the best ship, and in case something goes utterly wrong, want the ability to gtfo. In order to be 'the best ship', you need your ship to dominate others. It isn't enough to overwhelm them with sheer firepower when they have the ability to just pull range and alas, off they go. You need the ability to overwhelm them with sheer firepower while simultaneously denying them any movement. On the other hand, in case you have to gtfo yourself, maximizing your own speed is not enough, you have to create a huge difference in your target's and your own velocity. Webs are the way to go here, too.
Unless you, I or someone else finds a way to void this pattern, it will be the dominant doctrine in frigate pvp.
Even nerfing the webstrength will not lead to the wanted results, as the same rules still apply: Create the biggest possible difference in your own and your target's velocity (while blapping him in the face).
This is where the proposed Cruor changes start getting extremely interesting. Up close the only factor that will keep the Cruor from taking the upper hand is time. The longer the fight goes, the better the Cruor will stand there because of it's NOS. There will be the point at which the Cruor's opponent's capacitor is reduced to 0 - and where it stays at 0.
This has some impacts: An active tanked target will die really soon after. Propulsion Mods will shut down. Tackle will shut down. Hybrids and Lasers will shut down.
With this achieved, the Cruor on it self would now not any longer need to keep it's own tank, propulsion, and tackle besides a point running.
Even if it was a Missile or Projectile boat, just because the tackle is shut down, the Cruor could disengage at will.
Now, the only thing a Cruor needs to achieve is: Keep the opponent from running away and/or be able to close in.
It has been pointed out that a scram has more range than a Tech 2 NOS, however, an A-Type NOS is kinda affordable and outranges most scramblers. Only with links, hull bonuses and/or expensive scramblers a ship would be able to kite a cruor just barely between max scramrange and max NOS range. Little room for failure.
While on the other hand, a Cruor can web anything between 20km (meta 0 cold) and 36,4 (Fed Navy, hot) before links.
This means, even MWD ships in their usual habitat will be in webrange of the Cruor, ... reducing their vmax by whopping 60% (dayumn, nerf webs!). Everything it takes now for the Cruor is a velocity of ~3km/s to catch most of the enemies. A MWD will suffice.
How to keep them from warping away when they're webbed at long range? Simple solution, longpoint.
---> Cruor midslots are MWD, Web, Longpoint.
Following scenarios may happen:
Upon getting into NOS range, the Cruor gets scrammed, loses velocity, target pulls range, loses scram, mwd kicks in, cruor gets into nosrange again. Rinse and repeat until target is drained from cap and/or blasted apart by scorch.
Upon getting into NOS range, the Cruor doesn't get scrammed cause the opponent just has a longpoint. NOS siphon cap, fuel Cruor's own tank, target goes dry, Cruor either gets the kill or disengages [for reasons].
Upon trying to get into NOS range, the opponent manages to scram him before NOS pressure can be applied and manages to kite the Cruor in his comfort zone. Cruor's only bet now: Scorch and it's 2 drones. DPS race.
Luckily, the ships having this scramrange (or other e-war range to shut down the Cruor) are few: -The tackle-range interceptors, allthough those are fairly squishy when confronted with Scorch -The Cruor -A properly fit Rail DD -A Sentinel -A Keres -A Hyena (with backup) -Pimped frigs, such as Dramiels
...
This setup has the potential to break the current ongoing meta of Midslots, Midslots, Midslots with just it's Hullbonuses used correctly.
1 web, 1 point, 1 mwd and the good old nos.
Sadly, this can't be translated onto other ships, simply because of the game mechanics. NOS can't keep a target empty, small neuts lack the range to do so and the Dragoon is too slow and has too few midslots (Midslots OP, nerf midslots!) to execute it.
... The Sentinel does it in some way, but everyone knows what a Sentinel can (and most likely will) do to you. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 16:53:00 -
[1264] - Quote
On a sidenote:
Could it be a solution to split the Stasis-Webifier module into 2 variants:
A 'Light Stasis Webifier' with current fitting requesties and a harshly reduced velocity factor, like, only -30%, while introducing 'Advanced Stasis Webifiers' that will cost 50 powergrid to fit, have the 'normal' stats and can thus only be fitted to Cruisers and above in a good way?
Maybe adjust the Daredevil's web-bonus to 200%, so it keeps it's current 90% webs, and in some fcked up fits reaches 100% at 0 tank?
Inteceptors could get a bonus towards fitting advanced Stasis Webifiers. Like 90% reduction in PG need. They can hen decide to pay 1 pg for 30% or 5 pg for 60%.
Choices, people! |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
567
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 17:38:00 -
[1265] - Quote
CCP have recognised that (90%) webs are broken overpowered, I think, but they just aren't willing to actually fix the game. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
423
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 17:45:00 -
[1266] - Quote
I dont think its a case of not fixing the game so much as 90% webs would be OP for everyone, but not on just one line of easily recognized hulls. The only thing that would make it better is if Serpentis didnt look so Gallente, rather than unique like Angel & Sansha.
If Only Serpentis ships can do it, then as soon as you see it that ship becomes your primary target. If solo you dont engage it.
If it was a widely available bonus, then it is not good... But they just removed that bonus from evrrything else that had it. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
126
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 17:53:00 -
[1267] - Quote
Finally, news about Pirate ships rebalance!
I like the new directions for Sansha, Blood Raiders and Guristas. So Sansha will become very fast when AB fitted, Blood Raiders will properly vampirize everything around them, and Guristas will be using a few ++ber-drones with a kinetic AND thermal bonus to missiles... Neat! I'm curious to see what will happen to Serpentis and Angel Cartel.
Little question: so you are planning to rebalance them all at the same time -and all 3 ship classes- and implement those changes at the same time? Or will you be progressing towards higher ship classes? (makes sense to rebalance them all at the same time though) |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
296
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 17:54:00 -
[1268] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:On a sidenote:
Could it be a solution to split the Stasis-Webifier module into 2 variants:
A 'Light Stasis Webifier' with current fitting requesties and a harshly reduced velocity factor, like, only -30%, while introducing 'Advanced Stasis Webifiers' that will cost 50 powergrid to fit, have the 'normal' stats and can thus only be fitted to Cruisers and above in a good way?
Maybe adjust the Daredevil's web-bonus to 200%, so it keeps it's current 90% webs, and in some fcked up fits reaches 100% at 0 tank?
Inteceptors (dedicated tackling ships) could get a bonus towards fitting advanced Stasis Webifiers. Like 90% reduction in PG need. They can hen decide to pay 1 pg for 30% or 5 pg for 60%.
Choices, people!
It's an interesting thought, but it's not a hard fix and the issue is more larger ships being able to swat smaller ones anyway.
The Vindicator with Skirmish boosts and two webs can basically create a 40km diameter sphere of "**** frigates" where anything that gets into web range gets immediately snagged and blown off the field and Cruisers don't fair much better. This makes it very difficult to pin down a Vindicator in a balanced fight because your Tackle is going to drop fast. You can, of course, bring Damps or ECM but the same applies for guns in general and doesn't actually address the real problem here.
The problem is, essentially, that you can stack 90% webs. 90% is basically the hard limit on "regular" webs, you can stack 10 webs on one target and I think it gets it down to ~9% velocity. Two 90% webs on one target is ~1-2% velocity and a death-sentence for anything that cares about speed to survive, whether it's sub-caps against capitals, or a frigate against anything. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
296
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 17:56:00 -
[1269] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:I dont think its a case of not fixing the game so much as 90% webs would be OP for everyone, but not on just one line of easily recognized hulls. The only thing that would make it better is if Serpentis didnt look so Gallente, rather than unique like Angel & Sansha.
If Only Serpentis ships can do it, then as soon as you see it that ship becomes your primary target. If solo you dont engage it.
If it was a widely available bonus, then it is not good... But they just removed that bonus from evrrything else that had it.
90% webs used to be the standard and were removed because of the effect they had on combat. Basically people got into web-range and the fight turned into who had a better DPS to HP ratio with a very slight emphasis on positioning vs the range of your guns, but basically it just turned into a slug-fest. This was removed because it wasn't fun, just like it's not a lot of fun to get your Inty blatted off the field by a dual-web Vindicator. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
424
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:05:00 -
[1270] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I dont think its a case of not fixing the game so much as 90% webs would be OP for everyone, but not on just one line of easily recognized hulls. The only thing that would make it better is if Serpentis didnt look so Gallente, rather than unique like Angel & Sansha.
If Only Serpentis ships can do it, then as soon as you see it that ship becomes your primary target. If solo you dont engage it.
If it was a widely available bonus, then it is not good... But they just removed that bonus from evrrything else that had it. 90% webs used to be the standard and were removed because of the effect they had on combat. Basically people got into web-range and the fight turned into who had a better DPS to HP ratio with a very slight emphasis on positioning vs the range of your guns, but basically it just turned into a slug-fest. This was removed because it wasn't fun, just like it's not a lot of fun to get your Inty blatted off the field by a dual-web Vindicator.
Yes... But if only a Vindicator can do that to you, you know about it and can either not engage or take other measures against that ship. The problem exists when everyone can do it. |
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
570
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:18:00 -
[1271] - Quote
not engaging isn't really a good counter |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2125
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:31:00 -
[1272] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter you could just try not getting webbed. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
262
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:32:00 -
[1273] - Quote
Batelle wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter you could just try not getting webbed.
It made me chuckle, so here's a +1 |
Lusian
Kenshin. Against ALL Authorities
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:36:00 -
[1274] - Quote
Just make more ship designs to replace what the older ships used to do. But keep the older ships around. There is no reason why we can't have more ships in game to play with. More ships means more fun in eve. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
253
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:43:00 -
[1275] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter not engaging isn't really the only counter. Its not like Vindicators are invincible or sth.. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
571
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:48:00 -
[1276] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter not engaging isn't really the only counter. Its not like Vindicators are invincible or sth..
the overpoweredness of ecm and damps doesn't mean 90% webs aren't silly |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
254
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:51:00 -
[1277] - Quote
What I am trying to say is that they are silly, but totally viable if kept on a couple of pirate hulls. You still got a shitload of options for dealing with them, and they do not posses the numbers to alter the meta. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:56:00 -
[1278] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:----> Change Dramiel kthx.
Your argument boiled down to completely discounting drones and mobility while trumping up cost and fitting. Cost is irrelevant for balance. Fitting is tight on a Dram and it does requires some pimp to fit the same way as the Firetail. The Firetail is closer than maybe it should be but the Dram is still the better ship.
If you want to argue for a small fitting buff to the Dram I wouldn't argue. My issue is people trumpeting the notion that no one is going fly the Dram or that the firetail is the better ship. Both of those are false. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
571
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 19:56:00 -
[1279] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:What I am trying to say is that they are silly, but totally viable if kept on a couple of pirate hulls. You still got a shitload of options for dealing with them, and they do not posses the numbers to alter the meta.
scissors can be way overpowered while still losing to rock |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
429
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 20:16:00 -
[1280] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter
Odd. Thats the only counter allowed to most PvE boats.
Having it on the one line of ships breaks nothing and gives those ships a known element of danger. |
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
572
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 20:26:00 -
[1281] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter Odd. Thats the only counter allowed to most PvE boats. Having it on the one line of ships breaks nothing and gives those ships a known element of danger.
do you know what a dreadnought is |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2036
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 20:29:00 -
[1282] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter Odd. Thats the only counter allowed to most PvE boats. Having it on the one line of ships breaks nothing and gives those ships a known element of danger. do you know what a dreadnought is
Ohh ohh ohh !!!
I know this one!
They are the big things that are really really good at making near-stationary things go blap! BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
PinkKnife
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
467
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 21:04:00 -
[1283] - Quote
Just because you can pigeonhole the succubus into working as a ship doesn't make it good. I'm sure Rise did that enough to see that yeah, technically it kinda works.
That doesn't make it good, that's the whole argument.
The ship is designed against itself, and just because one person somewhere can make it work for a specific application, doesn't make it a good ship.
No one has answered why you would ever fly this over the daredevil or Cruour. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
262
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 21:08:00 -
[1284] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:----> Change Dramiel kthx. Your argument boiled down to completely discounting drones and mobility while trumping up cost and fitting. Cost is irrelevant for balance. Fitting is tight on a Dram and it does requires some pimp to fit the same way as the Firetail. The Firetail is closer than maybe it should be but the Dram is still the better ship. If you want to argue for a small fitting buff to the Dram I wouldn't argue. My issue is people trumpeting the notion that no one is going fly the Dram or that the firetail is the better ship. Both of those are false.
Okay, you are right on your points, that's for sure, however, the Dramiel still is geared towards a role in which there are better choices. This is fairly common across almost all ships, that there's always something that gets a job done better, however as for this very special pirate frigate, it looks like the following:
If i want to play MWD tackle for a gang, I am now going for an Interceptor. The reasons why I am doing this are the following: The Warpspeed of an Interceptor allows me to pursuit targets a lot more easy as i could with a Dramiel. At the same time these Interceptors get a bonus to Warp Disruptor Range. Which is basically a key-functionality here, because with an MWD and High-Velocity, i want to stay as far out from my target as possible while keeping it tackled, so that after a secondary tackle is applied i can GTFO as fast as possbile.
If i want to play close range tackle for a gang, the Dramiel surely is a ship to be considered, however i would like to go with a mwd AND an afterburner here, so while going into scramrange i can still maintain a good amount of velocity even if counterscrammed. Fitting both these modules along with some tank takes a good chunk of fitting, and if i don't want to be useless for everything besides tackling, i will think of getting a Firetail over a Dramiel, simply because the firetail can fit this stuff without the need for fitting mods (and in the case of getting blown up, i won't lose a rather expensive Dramiel, but this isn't a balance factor, just a metric on which i decide which ship i take).
If I intend on dealing damage with the Dramiel, i may have the supreme velocity over the Firetail, and the added Drone-DPS will boost my total DPS over that of a Firetail, however it takes ~20 seconds of DPS and 3 of my 4 drones i can carry are vapourized, from where on the Firetail would deal more DPS. The Dramiel certainly has the Fall-Off bonus which allows for some kiting stuff the firetail can't do as good, but to be quite honest, with the hard Falloff I'd be in, i could also fit some Arties onto the Firetail and deal roughly the same DPS at same ranges. With enormous volleys that might put another, active tanked, frig through it's buffertank. Now i could expand on this and fit a Dramiel in the same way, but there they are again, my fitting problems.
Really almost no matter how you look at it, the Dramiel ends up in a position between Interceptor and Combat frig. While being some kind of Hybrid might be of use, it isn't in this case:
A Interceptor will just outperform a Dramiel in the role of tackling and hunting down targets, whereas a Firetail will perform on an equal level as the Dramiel in terms of combat capability. This means the Dramiel is in a spot which would apply onto the philosophy of a Tech 3 ship: Can do more than one thing, but worse than the role's respective working horses. Which is nothing that should apply onto a Pirate frigate. Also, please note how the 'High mobility' which is the main attribute of the Dramiel, can now be achieved by a Succubus when looking at afterburner fits.
To have the Dramiel perform better than a Firetail requires the pilot to put a few rather expensive mods into the Dramiel. Which could, of course, be used in the Firetail, too, and enhance it's performance likewise.
I can see how the Dramiel would be in a good spot if it gained, let's say, 50% bonus damage on it's rolebonus, boosting it from 4 effective turrets to 5. The Firetail has 4.5. Voila, Pirate > Navy, as it is intended. Another way would be giving the Dramiel some fittings, so that with Tech 2 gear it could fit the same stuff a Firetail can. Voila, Pirate > Navy, by ~same stats with enhanced mobility.
I can tell you: I have flown the Firetail quite a lot after the Navy Frig changes, and i really like it. If i were to decide i want to fly a Dramiel, it would be a very, very special Dramiel, one that i wouldn't want to lose. Unless of course i'm filthy rich, which i unfortunately am not.
The upsides over a Firetail i would get by this fit is not dps, neither tank. It's mobility. It wouldn't allow me to kill stronger ships that a Firetail could handle, it would simply allow me to catch even some MWD kiting Dual TD Condors and whatnot, simply by going common MWD speeds with an AB.
This is the only thing the Dramiel can shine in, and that's sad. Because with the mobile depots at hand, i can also just fit an MWD to my Firetail instead of an ab, and eat said kiting ships alive, too.
There will be people still flying Dramiels, yes. Maybe even I will. But it will certainly not be the best choice for the things i intend to do. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
434
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 22:19:00 -
[1285] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter Odd. Thats the only counter allowed to most PvE boats. Having it on the one line of ships breaks nothing and gives those ships a known element of danger. do you know what a dreadnought is
As it happens I do. What is the point to the question?
I know the 90% web is very powerful. If it was on any ship that could fit a web it would be stupid... However, its only on serpentis ships, which meams you maybe take unusual care around an unusual ship.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2089
|
Posted - 2014.03.07 16:37:00 -
[1286] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter Is bringing the right ship for the job a good counter?
I'm just wondering because there are several ships out there that are OP until somebody brings a hard counter for them. |
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope Gallente Federation
263
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 00:29:00 -
[1287] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter Is bringing the right ship for the job a good counter? I'm just wondering because there are several ships out there that are OP until somebody brings a hard counter for them.
Shocking News from 2k3 |
PeanutButter JellyTime22
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 00:58:00 -
[1288] - Quote
I really don't understand the Cruor change, if anything it's making the ship WORSE, the two bonuses are now mutually exclusive. You can't make use of the neut/nos bonus outside of 7km in which case the web bonus becomes obsolete, and vice versa. Having to choose between which of the ship's bonuses that you want to use is very poor planning and really needs to be reworked. The only reason the Bhaalgorn works well with the web bonus is because it's neuts have a 30km range and therefore both bonuses can be used together and complement each other. This will not work on the Cruor because the ranges involved do not complement each other, the neuts need more range (if so, why not just buy a senintel?) or the webs need to go back to 90% again. Besides, what is the reasoning behind reducing the ship's PG? It makes the ship a horror to fit, with mis-matched bonuses and a nice shiny price tag with absolutely no reason for said price tag. If you want to improve the ship so that people might fly it, it needs a 4th mid slot so it can use both a web and cap booster, along with the fitting to do so. Then just leave it alone. If you want to nerf the ship so that it becomes worse than the current Succubus in terms of being useful, keep it up, it will be
TL;DR: The Cruor bonuses cannot be used together and need to be reworked. |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 01:23:00 -
[1289] - Quote
basicly what you have just said, SUMMER CRUOR IS A JOKE |
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
627
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 08:52:00 -
[1290] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Serpentis: One of the strongest and most fun pirate factions at the moment is certainly Serpentis. We didn't want to make major changes in theme, but there is a big conversation that can be had about the web strength bonus. As it stands, at 10% per level, it is one of the strongest bonuses in the game and in the right situation it can feel downright broken.
It's a nice bonus, however, since it does not have a range bonus, I would argue it is balanced with a risk of fighting closer in. On the cruiser and bs hulls this us more of an issue but I guess on the frigate the bonus is potentially more 'broken' since they fight closer in, probably have more more 1v1s, and are at a much greater chance of getting killed when under 90% web.
The reality is that if you fit two webs on a standard, unbonused ship or two ships with a web you almost have the same effect as the serp bonus.
I think you hit the nail on the head that in the right (wrong?) situation it can feel broken. I would argue that situation is exclusively 1v1 frigs and only on the serp frigate hull.
If you do consider nerf ing the web on the frig hull please don't let it automatically pave the way for the Vindi / Vigilant. Forums are playing EVE too. Fact. |
|
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
81
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 09:09:00 -
[1291] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:not engaging isn't really a good counter Odd. Thats the only counter allowed to most PvE boats. Having it on the one line of ships breaks nothing and gives those ships a known element of danger. do you know what a dreadnought is As it happens I do. What is the point to the question? I know the 90% web is very powerful. If it was on any ship that could fit a web it would be stupid... However, its only on serpentis ships, which meams you maybe take unusual care around an unusual ship.
I fit Vindicator drones to my dreads, just saying. |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 09:26:00 -
[1292] - Quote
Quote:The reality is that if you fit two webs on a standard, unbonused ship or two ships with a web you almost have the same effect as the serp bonus.
Thats not even close man. 2 serp webs will get you down to 2% speed or so... |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
536
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:14:00 -
[1293] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:[...] This is the only thing the Dramiel can shine in, and that's sad. Because with the mobile depots at hand, i can also just fit an MWD to my Firetail instead of an ab, and eat said kiting ships alive, too.
There will be people still flying Dramiels, yes. Maybe even I will. But it will certainly not be the best choice for the things i intend to do.
Fan of the dramiel right here. I think a huge and apparently underestimated advantage is the dps-output for a dramiel without any damageamps added. Even going full stock with 150s, a rocket launcher and hobgoblins, you'll end up at roughly 180+dps with near all of your fittings still free, allowing for MSE, MSE#MASB, dualrep-armor and whatnot.
I use the dramiel less for it's offensive qualities, but rather for its insane mobility and flexible damage-application + sigtanking. However, the same will apply to the dramiel that applied earlier to the Tempest, Hurricane, Rifter and Stiletto - the Dram wasn't good recently, but it hasn't been ****** enough to be labeled *broken*. So with the competition making leaps forward, the Dramiel will be the new trash-tier, and my dualprop-dualrep drams most likely hauled and locked to the nearest station - replaced by succubi. :<
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
Silverbackyererse
41
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:57:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Pirate ships should be a little special.
The DD has it (Web Strength) , the proposed Cruor has it (Web Range / NOS).
NFI what's going to happen with the Worm's 'super drones' but it's different and could be called special I guess. NFI what's gonna happen with the Succ but it too Is different and can certainly be called special.
Seems to me though, that the Dram is being left out in the cold much like the Succ and Worm were previously. Please don't do that CCP Rise. If the changes go through then it will be left way behind.
|
Sieonigh
Tactical Tea Baggers Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 17:09:00 -
[1295] - Quote
ok i weigh in my 2 cents,
i feel the dram and the daredevil have to low HP amounts.
__________________________total DRAMIEL____590 / 590 / 520___1700 DAREDEVIL__530 / 560 / 630___1720 WORM______830 / 500 / 620___1950 wow CRUOR_____480 / 740 / 580___1800 SUCCUBUS__650 / 550 / 540___1740 ASTERO_____540 / 600 / 600___1740
now given that the astero is a cloky ship should it not be the one with the lowest HP? not trying to incite a nerf on it but rather a slight buff to the dram, daredevil ? at liest the succubus has its main tank HP stacked more on the shilds |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
664
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 18:28:00 -
[1296] - Quote
Sieonigh wrote:ok i weigh in my 2 cents,
i feel the dram and the daredevil have to low HP amounts.
__________________________total DRAMIEL____590 / 590 / 520___1700 DAREDEVIL__530 / 560 / 630___1720 WORM______830 / 500 / 620___1950 wow CRUOR_____480 / 740 / 580___1800 SUCCUBUS__650 / 550 / 540___1740 ASTERO_____540 / 600 / 600___1740
now given that the astero is a cloky ship should it not be the one with the lowest HP? not trying to incite a nerf on it but rather a slight buff to the dram, daredevil ? at liest the succubus has its main tank HP stacked more on the shilds
i have been saying this about dram and DD ... dramiel being angel is supposed to be shield tanked and DD armour tank .. dram and DD need to have more HP stacked on their main tank.. succubus could use more too.
DRAMIEL____640 / 540 / 570___1750 DAREDEVIL__500 / 650 / 620___1770 SUCCUBUS__720 / 510 / 560___1790 Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
bassie12bf1
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
43
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 19:36:00 -
[1297] - Quote
I feel like the current succubus hull is kinda too bulky to have anything related to speed, though the other Sansha frigate that's only used for rats does seem the right kinda look for speed if you ask me. |
Fourteen Maken
VipeRs Pit
134
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 19:48:00 -
[1298] - Quote
PeanutButter JellyTime22 wrote:I really don't understand the Cruor change, if anything it's making the ship WORSE, the two bonuses are now mutually exclusive. You can't make use of the neut/nos bonus outside of 7km in which case the web bonus becomes obsolete, and vice versa. Having to choose between which of the ship's bonuses that you want to use is very poor planning and really needs to be reworked. The only reason the Bhaalgorn works well with the web bonus is because it's neuts have a 30km range and therefore both bonuses can be used together and complement each other. This will not work on the Cruor because the ranges involved do not complement each other, the neuts need more range (if so, why not just buy a senintel?) or the webs need to go back to 90% again. Besides, what is the reasoning behind reducing the ship's PG? It makes the ship a horror to fit, with mis-matched bonuses and a nice shiny price tag with absolutely no reason for said price tag. If you want to improve the ship so that people might fly it, it needs a 4th mid slot so it can use both a web and cap booster, along with the fitting to do so. Then just leave it alone. If you want to nerf the ship so that it becomes worse than the current Succubus in terms of being useful, keep it up, it will be
TL;DR: The Cruor bonuses cannot be used together and need to be reworked.
The Web range bonus on the Cruor is useful to counter kiters, with overheated faction webs I think the range is like 36km... that's extremely useful regardless of the range of your weapons, for either closing down or for GTFO. Nice buff imo, looks like it's got good survivability in solo low sec roams.
EDIT: also really liking the new Worm |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 20:49:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:The Web range bonus on the Cruor is useful to counter kiters, with overheated faction webs I think the range is like 36km... that's extremely useful regardless of the range of your weapons, for either closing down or for GTFO. Nice buff imo, looks like it's got good survivability in solo low sec roams. EDIT: also really liking the new Worm
only if your opponent does not have a web, if he does you will not get further then 13km, in falloff of your lasers and not able to use your neuts/nos at all
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
82
|
Posted - 2014.03.09 07:00:00 -
[1300] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:The Web range bonus on the Cruor is useful to counter kiters, with overheated faction webs I think the range is like 36km... that's extremely useful regardless of the range of your weapons, for either closing down or for GTFO. Nice buff imo, looks like it's got good survivability in solo low sec roams. EDIT: also really liking the new Worm only if your opponent does not have a web, if he does you will not get further then 13km, in falloff of your lasers and not able to use your neuts/nos at all
If he does you will get just as close as he will and then they will have NO cap, and you will have all of it. sure they may still be able to fire sometimes with some weapons, but prop, most tanks, and point/web would struggle with what is basically a capless neut that recharges its users cap. Also if you don't insist on only using it solo, it becomes a simply amazing support ship for any small gang. A long range web bonus is something that very few ships have and only 1 out of the non t2+ line, and only 2 of them can really fit a armor tank. Ok yes maybe the Cruor could be the perfect solo facwar ship, but your really looking at it from the wrong way. The Cruor sets the stage for the rest of the line and its range web bonus is ultimately more effective than a effectiveness bonus, as with it you can actually catch your opponent in the first place.
& RISE, KEEP SANSHA SANSHA! |
|
Fourteen Maken
VipeRs Pit
134
|
Posted - 2014.03.09 18:03:00 -
[1301] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:The Web range bonus on the Cruor is useful to counter kiters, with overheated faction webs I think the range is like 36km... that's extremely useful regardless of the range of your weapons, for either closing down or for GTFO. Nice buff imo, looks like it's got good survivability in solo low sec roams. EDIT: also really liking the new Worm only if your opponent does not have a web, if he does you will not get further then 13km, in falloff of your lasers and not able to use your neuts/nos at all
meh can't win them all, you always have the option to burn out if you don't like the look of things whereas the other guy won't be able to get away unless you let him. Going from the stats in the op It looks to be a good ship for solo; if the fight starts at range I can't imagine many frigates or even interceptors could pin it down without faction gear, if it starts up close you can use your nos to win the cap war against almost anything. That covers a lot of solo fights that you can either win or get away from at will, it's all down to timing and judging things right but it should be good value for money. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.09 23:17:00 -
[1302] - Quote
I really think the actual effectiveness of the Cruor mis-matched bonuses will remain a mystery until we get them on the test server. Their are definite pros and cons when looking at it on paper. To a lesser extent the effect of the proposed changes to the Worm and Succubus will also be interesting when they are actually flown instead of us just modifying our fitting tools. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
368
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 10:50:00 -
[1303] - Quote
Sansha nation is abducting people from all nations in EVE. They are assimilating them, and connecting their minds to their collective. Those people are working then for glory of Sansha.
Why we cannot make Sansha ships to have benefits from all 4 races ships skills? (bonuses are just suggestions - probably OP, but utilizing 4 race ship bonus is good move)
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to Agility
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 4% of Warp Distruptor and Scrambler Range Per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Phantasm
Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Cruiser Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus
Minmatar Cruiser Bonus: 4% bonus to Agility
Gallent Cruiser Bonus : 4% of Warp Distruptor and Scrambler Range Per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage * |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 11:28:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Sansha nation is abducting people from all nations in EVE. They are assimilating them, and connecting their minds to their collective. Those people are working then for glory of Sansha.
Why we cannot make Sansha ships to have benefits from all 4 races ships skills? (bonuses are just suggestions - probably OP, but utilizing 4 race ship bonus is good move)
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to Agility
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 4% of Warp Distruptor and Scrambler Range Per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Phantasm
Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Cruiser Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus
Minmatar Cruiser Bonus: 4% bonus to Agility
Gallent Cruiser Bonus : 4% of Warp Distruptor and Scrambler Range Per level
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
ccp never chanes a ship so that someone that is able to fly it now will not be able to undock with it after the patch "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
368
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 11:48:00 -
[1305] - Quote
But those 2 additional races don't have to be mandatory to fly this hull. If you have those skills you will get additional benefits.
People that tried to fly Phantasm, know it is to slow , cap depended , to low DPS when compared to T1 cruisers not talking about other faction or t2 ships.
* |
Asa Shahni
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 13:25:00 -
[1306] - Quote
Am i the only one who thinks the cruor changes are worthless ?
Thing is you have a bonus to web range now but your neut/nos still have that 6.5km range so whats the point of having long range webs if you have to get into unbonused web range to use the ship to his full potention which is neuting the **** out of other people's ships.
I personaly think that this "new flavor" cruor is already broken unless you give something else or give him a range bonus on neut/nos to ballance things out . |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 15:02:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Asa Shahni wrote:Am i the only one who thinks the cruor changes are worthless ? Thing is you have a bonus to web range now but your neut/nos still have that 6.5km range so whats the point of having long range webs if you have to get into unbonused web range to use the ship to his full potention which is neuting the **** out of other people's ships. I personaly think that this "new flavor" cruor is already broken unless you give something else or give him a range bonus on neut/nos to ballance things out .
Nope.. EVERYONE that uses pirate ships know the new cruor is useless. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 15:03:00 -
[1308] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:But those 2 additional races don't have to be mandatory to fly this hull. If you have those skills you will get additional benefits.
People that tried to fly Phantasm, know it is to slow , cap depended , to low DPS when compared to T1 cruisers not talking about other faction or t2 ships.
And that is what the proposed change corrects dammit. Fit a 10 MN AB and you are a mosnter on the new frigate. Fit a 100MN AB on the cruiser.. same effect.
Anyoen that thinks the new snasha ships are weak have no clue about small scale PVP. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
516
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 15:13:00 -
[1309] - Quote
Cruor looks perfect for anti kite duty. Webbing, catching and neuting its prey. I personally like it |
Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
377
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 15:14:00 -
[1310] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:But those 2 additional races don't have to be mandatory to fly this hull. If you have those skills you will get additional benefits.
People that tried to fly Phantasm, know it is to slow , cap depended , to low DPS when compared to T1 cruisers not talking about other faction or t2 ships.
Even if they aren't required to undock, they might as well either be worthless bonuses or mandatory because if they're any good at all they will be considered minimum standard.
I like the idea of a ship recieving bonuses from all racial skills, but I really dislike the idea at the moment due to the imbalance in pirate hulls.
For example, pirate ships get bonuses from the following skills (in brackets if Sanshas got bonuses from all races).
Gallente: 4 (5) - Serpentis, Angels, Sisters of EVE, Guristas, (Sanshas) Minmatar: 3 (4) - Serpentis, Angels, Blood Raiders, (Sanshas) Amarr: 3 (3) - Blood Raiders, Sisters of EVE, Sanshas Caldari: 2 (2) - Guristas, Sanshas
At present there is a large imbalance in the pirate hulls to each race with Gallente granting access and bonuses to the most, and with Caldari only having two accessible pirate groups to choose from. Personally I'd like to see yet another Amarr-Caldari line to match the Serp/Angels, and a Caldari-Minmatar line to round things off, then maybe we could see a new line that is bonused by all four racial ship skills, as no race is left behind on the pirate front. |
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion
85
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 16:22:00 -
[1311] - Quote
I really enjoyed the drones/missiles setup I was able to achieve on the Gnosis, so it's encouraging to see the wrom get some love, as I'm much more comfortable flying frigs than slow arsed battlecruisers.
The concept of megadrones seems interesting, but I wonder at the utility of it. Drone HP isn't nearly as valuable as drone velocity, which is used to capitalize on their small signatures.
I can't see the "pimp my drone" setup being truly useful unless you're hooking them up with a bit of velocity and EWAR resistance so that it isn't super easy to just wipe out half of your effective drone DPS with a single module.
I like the IDEA of "rawr, two badass drones" as it sounds fun, and could make for some hilarious mining traps with a cloaked worm escort, but I can't see just giving them more HP as making them equivalent to 4 drones. I think that's really the sweet spot. if you're outputting 6 effective drones worth of DPS, how about 4 drone's worth of tank, with the added bonus that that tank is more resistant to smartbombs due to its condensed nature? |
King Rothgar
Aegis Interplanetary .Inc Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
376
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 16:58:00 -
[1312] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Asa Shahni wrote:Am i the only one who thinks the cruor changes are worthless ? Thing is you have a bonus to web range now but your neut/nos still have that 6.5km range so whats the point of having long range webs if you have to get into unbonused web range to use the ship to his full potention which is neuting the **** out of other people's ships. I personaly think that this "new flavor" cruor is already broken unless you give something else or give him a range bonus on neut/nos to ballance things out . Nope.. EVERYONE that uses pirate ships know the new cruor is useless.
Indeed. I like the neut/nos change on them, but the web change is, in all honesty, a massive nerf to an already underpowered ship. Unless a range bonus is added to both the turrets and the neut/nos as well, then there is absolutely no point in a web range bonus. The ship must be setup for brawling or kiting, mixing the two does not work. This has been shown time and time again with previous ship bonuses that have since been revised.
This is even more problematic for the Ashimmu, a ship that already works very well in the role of heavy tackler. The ashimmu has low dps and a very average tank for a faction cruiser, but anything it touches is instantly brought to a dead stop, even interceptors. The proposed NOS change would fit in perfectly for it and I think have the desired effect. However, the web change cripples the ship. The ONLY thing it has going for it is the ability to tackle, it isn't going to win the gank/tank fight unless it's dps output is doubled. It is a support ship like a HIC, you don't want a fleet of them. Just 1 or 2.
Changing the web bonus from strength to range destroys that super tackle ability it currently has. At that point, it doesn't really offer anything not done better by other ships. The reason the web range bonus works on the Bhaalgorn is because large neuts and BS guns both work at the extended web range. That is not the case for frigate and cruiser class mods. Also, change the web range bonus on the Bhaalgorn to the strength bonus, no reason it should be left out on the awesome webs. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1218
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:07:00 -
[1313] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:
EDIT: I'm looking forward to this new Worm! A frig that uses 2 drones that count as 8, or each one as 4, in terms of both damage and hitpoints... Can't wait to see the Gila and the Rattlesnake!
I don't see the bonus pattern translating well to the Gila/RS
2x Large Drones/Sentries is 50m3 5x Hammerheads is 50m3
I'm fairly certain 5 hammerheads is more dps than 2 sentries/heavies |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
292
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:11:00 -
[1314] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Asa Shahni wrote:Am i the only one who thinks the cruor changes are worthless ? Thing is you have a bonus to web range now but your neut/nos still have that 6.5km range so whats the point of having long range webs if you have to get into unbonused web range to use the ship to his full potention which is neuting the **** out of other people's ships. I personaly think that this "new flavor" cruor is already broken unless you give something else or give him a range bonus on neut/nos to ballance things out . Nope.. EVERYONE that uses pirate ships know the new cruor is useless. Indeed. I like the neut/nos change on them, but the web change is, in all honesty, a massive nerf to an already underpowered ship. Unless a range bonus is added to both the turrets and the neut/nos as well, then there is absolutely no point in a web range bonus. The ship must be setup for brawling or kiting, mixing the two does not work. This has been shown time and time again with previous ship bonuses that have since been revised. This is even more problematic for the Ashimmu, a ship that already works very well in the role of heavy tackler. The ashimmu has low dps and a very average tank for a faction cruiser, but anything it touches is instantly brought to a dead stop, even interceptors. The proposed NOS change would fit in perfectly for it and I think have the desired effect. However, the web change cripples the ship. The ONLY thing it has going for it is the ability to tackle, it isn't going to win the gank/tank fight unless it's dps output is doubled. It is a support ship like a HIC, you don't want a fleet of them. Just 1 or 2.
As far as frigates go the new cruor is completely useless completely agree. however in current warfare the ashimmu is the ONLY t1 cruiser that can survive in a t2 cruiser tank because of it being one of the hugest tanks for t1 cruisers.
For the new web bonus to work on the ashimmu it WILL need more mids and its gonna need a bigger bonus to the web range for this to ever be considered.
we already asked for another mid on the cruor to make the new bonus work but. we have yet to see this change
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Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 19:08:00 -
[1315] - Quote
Still not sold on the Cruor..
Right now with the 90% web you have a chance of catching someone and bringing them into neut range.
With the proposed changes, it's still the slowest pirate frig so what does the web range bonus do? You catch someone out to 20km but you cant scram them, apply damage, or neut them. If you close down to your damage application range, now webs are applied on you and the opponent will dictate range.
This might work in fleets but who brings pirate frigs to fleets anyway. Pirate frigs have always been a soloers niche.
If the Cruor doesn't keep it's current web velocity bonus, consider a damage or neut range bonus. |
King Rothgar
Aegis Interplanetary .Inc Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
376
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 19:36:00 -
[1316] - Quote
If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.
If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:
1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.
2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.
See the problem?
The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.
The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however. As suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect and the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |
Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
377
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:23:00 -
[1317] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Komodo Askold wrote:
EDIT: I'm looking forward to this new Worm! A frig that uses 2 drones that count as 8, or each one as 4, in terms of both damage and hitpoints... Can't wait to see the Gila and the Rattlesnake!
I don't see the bonus pattern translating well to the Gila/RS 2x Large Drones/Sentries is 50m3 5x Hammerheads is 50m3 I'm fairly certain 5 hammerheads is more dps than 2 sentries/heavies [edit] I can only think of 2 solutions - add a 'Max Drone in Space -3' bonus - completely overhaul drones (long overdue anyway) but I'm sure the devs have something in mind to limit the potential for exploitability p.s it's high time drones were treated as the s/m/l weapon systems they are, and have those class limits applied to all applicable hulls I really don't get why people assume it NEEDS to be a 300% bonus to all. I don't see why we can't have a number of role bonuses with the same intent so we have, say, for a medium based Gurista ship a 20mbits/s bandwidth with a 300% bonus to mediums and a 100% bonus to lights giving an effective 8 of each still, and for a heavy/sentry a 50mbit/s with a 60% bonus to lights and mediums and a 300% bonus to heavies/sentries. Still 8 of each, doesn't make, say, the lights ridiculously overpowered. |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
33
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 08:50:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Rattlesnake (worm and gila also) need a special bonus like other pirate bs.
Mach has cruiser hull speed + damage projection
vindi has top dps + 90% web
bhaalgorn has neut + web range
nightmare like the rattlesnake has nothing special but still worth aroudn 800 mil like other pirate bs.
If someone fly a pirate bs want to experience something can't achieve with t1 or navy ships.
Right now a rattlesnake has only tank, like a scorpion navy and a worse damage application than a t1 dominix or a cruiser hull like ishtar.
Give guristas and sansha ships unique bonuses that make them worth flying.
Right now rattlesnake/nightmare/gila/phantasm are bad copy of t1/t2 variants while pirate ships should be on top of perfomance. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 09:42:00 -
[1319] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.
If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:
1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.
2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.
See the problem?
The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.
The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu. Everyone has been saying this throughout the whole thread. Along with the Sansha proposal and Worm bonuses being disliked and this all repeated on many occasions with many good alternative solutions proposed, Rise as he has stated appears to be perfectly happy with everything.
It makes one wonder if there is any point to giving feedback when even when the feedback is overwhelming it is still deemed to be wrong by CCP. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 09:53:00 -
[1320] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Asa Shahni wrote:Am i the only one who thinks the cruor changes are worthless ? Thing is you have a bonus to web range now but your neut/nos still have that 6.5km range so whats the point of having long range webs if you have to get into unbonused web range to use the ship to his full potention which is neuting the **** out of other people's ships. I personaly think that this "new flavor" cruor is already broken unless you give something else or give him a range bonus on neut/nos to ballance things out . Nope.. EVERYONE that uses pirate ships know the new cruor is useless. Indeed. I like the neut/nos change on them, but the web change is, in all honesty, a massive nerf to an already underpowered ship. Unless a range bonus is added to both the turrets and the neut/nos as well, then there is absolutely no point in a web range bonus. The ship must be setup for brawling or kiting, mixing the two does not work. This has been shown time and time again with previous ship bonuses that have since been revised. This is even more problematic for the Ashimmu, a ship that already works very well in the role of heavy tackler. The ashimmu has low dps and a very average tank for a faction cruiser, but anything it touches is instantly brought to a dead stop, even interceptors. The proposed NOS change would fit in perfectly for it and I think have the desired effect. However, the web change cripples the ship. The ONLY thing it has going for it is the ability to tackle, it isn't going to win the gank/tank fight unless it's dps output is doubled. It is a support ship like a HIC, you don't want a fleet of them. Just 1 or 2. Changing the web bonus from strength to range destroys that super tackle ability it currently has. At that point, it doesn't really offer anything not done better by other ships. The reason the web range bonus works on the Bhaalgorn is because large neuts and BS guns both work at the extended web range. That is not the case for frigate and cruiser class mods. Also, change the web range bonus on the Bhaalgorn to the strength bonus, no reason it should be left out on the awesome webs.
The point you are wrong is on the ashimmu.
It will work ok aven better for the ashimu. THe problem is Nos and web bonus is not the range difference between then NOS and the bonused web. It is between the nso and the NON BONUSED web the enemy ship is using.
In the cruor that means that you web him first, but before you get in your small nos range, he webs you , and sicne you are NOT in a fast frigate, you will nto be able to push into the NOS range, therefore your nos is useless.
With the ashimmu this problem is near non existant, sicne the medium NOS and medium euts basically match non bonused web range. THat means you web enemy first and that gives you leverage to brign him into your neut range very fast and he cannot avoid it usign his own web.
Ashimmu will be very strong with this new set of bonuses.
The cruor.. will be dead.
Bhalghorns woudl have NO use at ALL for web strenght bonus. Neuts do nto track, therefore 90% webs are irrelevant. The bhallghorn just need to catch enemies passing by his neuts.
Givign 90% webs to bhaalghorn would be a huge nerf .. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 09:56:00 -
[1321] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:King Rothgar wrote:If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.
If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:
1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.
2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.
See the problem?
The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.
The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu. Everyone has been saying this throughout the whole thread. Along with the Sansha proposal and Worm bonuses being disliked and this all repeated on many occasions with many good alternative solutions proposed, Rise as he has stated appears to be perfectly happy with everything. It makes one wonder if there is any point to giving feedback when even when the feedback is overwhelming it is still deemed to be wrong by CCP.
And they are saying it WRONG. See my previous post on WHY the web range bonus only fails at the cruor and not at the ashimmu. The range difference between your neuts and your web is NOT the problem. The problem is that small nos need smaller rang than NORMAL webs.
People need to get out of excel and do a bit more of small scale on the edge combat to realize how things really work.
Stop pretendign you are gonna killa goldfish, think on what the enemy can and will do to mitigate your actions. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 09:59:00 -
[1322] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.
If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:
1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.
2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.
See the problem?
The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.
The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu.
That is complete lack of understanding of small scale cobmat (where the ashimmu will be used).
Have you even used an ashimmu? The web range bonus will be a HUGE buff to the ashimmu. Its largest problem nowadays is to CATCH its prey not to stop it compeltely (That the neuts will eventually do as well). The ashimmu is among the slwoest cruisers around, web range bonus will finally make it it useful against smart players in cruisers as well
There is a reason why we ( the corp) bought about 50 ashimmus when the changes were announced). BEcause they wil lbe come among the best ships for small gang combat (no small gang is not 50 peopel for you nullbearers, its 3 or 4 people). And we know a LOT about this small scale engagement stuff. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Cardano Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
105
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 10:07:00 -
[1323] - Quote
Fear these frigates guys. They are deadly. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
539
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 12:39:00 -
[1324] - Quote
Just adding to that ashimmu, C-type med NOS is like 3mil buy-order currently. So you get your 16.5km BR nos to your 20km web, which isn't terrible afterall. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
547
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 13:15:00 -
[1325] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:In the cruor that means that you web him first, but before you get in your small nos range, he webs you , and sicne you are NOT in a fast frigate, you will nto be able to push into the NOS range, therefore your nos is useless.
With the ashimmu this problem is near non existant, sicne the medium NOS and medium euts basically match non bonused web range. THat means you web enemy first and that gives you leverage to brign him into your neut range very fast and he cannot avoid it usign his own web.
Ashimmu will be very strong with this new set of bonuses.
The cruor.. will be dead. That is only true for the Cruor if your startegy only rely on the NOS. But first she doesn't actually need it to win a duel with another frigate ; and second this two bonuses synergize perfectly for a heavy tackle frigate in small gang.
The Cruor will be slightly behind the Comet in term of tank, firepower and speed, but with two neutralizing NOS. While kiting, it will be completely impossible to catch because of 20km web and you don't even need the nos.
At worse, the nos bonus is as situational as the armor rep bonus of gallente ship, and at best it's simply brutal.
And of course there's the high meta level nos, like c-type small nos with 8,5km range which simply solve every possible problem. |
Fourteen Maken
VipeRs Pit
134
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 13:18:00 -
[1326] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:Still not sold on the Cruor..
Right now with the 90% web you have a chance of catching someone and bringing them into neut range.
With the proposed changes, it's still the slowest pirate frig so what does the web range bonus do? You catch someone out to 20km but you cant scram them, apply damage, or neut them. If you close down to your damage application range, now webs are applied on you and the opponent will dictate range.
This might work in fleets but who brings pirate frigs to fleets anyway. Pirate frigs have always been a soloers niche.
If the Cruor doesn't keep it's current web velocity bonus, consider a damage or neut range bonus.
True enough, now that I think of it there are a few t1 frigates that could scram kite a cruor with common fits. Its pretty slow compared to most frigs, and needs to be one of the fastest for these bonuses to work properly. |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
82
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 19:00:00 -
[1327] - Quote
I think the range bonus for all BL ships is a great move. It's especially going to be interesting on the Ashimmu. The NOS bonus could be a lot of fun as well especially since these are laser boats.
You mentioned the Sansha don't have a flavor. I always thought that flavor was "lasers with shields" since amarr doesn't really do shield tanks ever. Afterburner speed is an only mildly interesting bonus. Sort of a half-step in the direction of the MWD-sig bonus on other ships. One alternate non-overlap theme might be a cap bonus. That used to be an amarr thing, but the tiericide pass pretty much removed it. And given the cap-suck of lasers...
I really hope you keep the Serpentis web strength bonus where it is. I don't think it's OP at all relative to other pirate bonuses. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 19:14:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:That is only true for the Cruor if your startegy only rely on the NOS. But first she doesn't actually need it to win a duel with another frigate ; and second this two bonuses synergize perfectly for a heavy tackle frigate in small gang.
The Cruor will be slightly behind the Comet in term of tank, firepower and speed, but with two neutralizing NOS. While kiting, it will be completely impossible to catch because of 20km web and you don't even need the nos.
At worse, the nos bonus is as situational as the armor rep bonus of gallente ship, and at best it's simply brutal.
And of course there's the high meta level nos, like c-type small nos with 8,5km range which simply solve every possible problem.
if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps** I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)
no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited
*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II **Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II ***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
549
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 20:39:00 -
[1329] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps** I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)
no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited
*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II **Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II ***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II
Since when do you get kited outside of scram range ?! And since when does the Comet scram kite with blaster FFS ?!!! And why aurora for God's sake !?
Come on ! You must be trolling ! Proper Comet scram kite with railguns. It has about the same gun dps (you can use a damage rig to offset the MFS) but one more drone ; it have indeed more tank (more low or more rig) and more speed. But with deadspace nos, you will toast the Comet.
Kiting setup, if *some* ship *might* be able to catch you despite the web (it's actually harder to slingshot at lower speed), that leave all the other sitting ducks, and nothing prevent you from using speed mod instead of tank anyway. |
Fourteen Maken
VipeRs Pit
134
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:14:00 -
[1330] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps** I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)
no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited
*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II **Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II ***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II
Since when do you get kited outside of scram range ?! And since when does the Comet scram kite with blaster FFS ?!!! And why aurora for God's sake !? Come on ! You must be trolling ! Proper Comet scram kite with railguns. It has about the same gun dps (you can use a damage rig to offset the MFS) but one more drone ; it have indeed more tank (more low or more rig) and more speed. But with deadspace nos, you will toast the Comet. Kiting setup, if *some* ship *might* be able to catch you despite the web (it's actually harder to slingshot at lower speed), that leave all the other sitting ducks, and nothing prevent you from using speed mod instead of tank anyway.
I think people are underestimating the Cruor, web range bonus is going to be sweet on a frig, but at the same time it has pretty big weaknesses for a pirate faction frigate so I'm in two minds about it. I think it needs more speed so it can dictate range against most other single web set ups, and close down kiters faster because the tank isn't great either. |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:39:00 -
[1331] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:In the cruor that means that you web him first, but before you get in your small nos range, he webs you , and sicne you are NOT in a fast frigate, you will nto be able to push into the NOS range, therefore your nos is useless.
With the ashimmu this problem is near non existant, sicne the medium NOS and medium euts basically match non bonused web range. THat means you web enemy first and that gives you leverage to brign him into your neut range very fast and he cannot avoid it usign his own web.
Ashimmu will be very strong with this new set of bonuses.
The cruor.. will be dead. That is only true for the Cruor if your startegy only rely on the NOS. But first she doesn't actually need it to win a duel with another frigate ; and second this two bonuses synergize perfectly for a heavy tackle frigate in small gang. The Cruor will be slightly behind the Comet in term of tank, firepower and speed, but with two neutralizing NOS. While kiting, it will be completely impossible to catch because of 20km web and you don't even need the nos. At worse, the nos bonus is as situational as the armor rep bonus of gallente ship, and at best it's simply brutal. And of course there's the high meta level nos, like c-type small nos with 8,5km range which simply solve every possible problem.
How many times have you tried such theory? It will be always better to bring a hyena if that is what you want to do.
The new bonuses work for the ashimmu (as I said so many times), But for the cruor they are just blank, specially because the sentinel and hynea make the ship simply uneeded.
Its nto easy to balance a cruor, but as of now, would be dumb to use one instead of an EW frigate. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:40:00 -
[1332] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps** I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)
no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited
*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II **Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II ***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II
Since when do you get kited outside of scram range ?! And since when does the Comet scram kite with blaster FFS ?!!! And why aurora for God's sake !? Come on ! You must be trolling ! Proper Comet scram kite with railguns. It has about the same gun dps (you can use a damage rig to offset the MFS) but one more drone ; it have indeed more tank (more low or more rig) and more speed. But with deadspace nos, you will toast the Comet. Kiting setup, if *some* ship *might* be able to catch you despite the web (it's actually harder to slingshot at lower speed), that leave all the other sitting ducks, and nothing prevent you from using speed mod instead of tank anyway. I think people are underestimating the Cruor, web range bonus is going to be sweet on a frig, but at the same time it has pretty big weaknesses for a pirate faction frigate so I'm in two minds about it. I think it needs more speed so it can dictate range against most other single web set ups, and close down kiters faster because the tank isn't great either.
That is what I said several times. It does nto need to be the fastest frigate, but cannto be among the slowest of it scompetitors, otherwise the web range bonus is a waste on it, and will always be better to bring a hyena
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:41:00 -
[1333] - Quote
Atomic Option wrote:I think the range bonus for all BL ships is a great move. It's especially going to be interesting on the Ashimmu. The NOS bonus could be a lot of fun as well especially since these are laser boats.
You mentioned the Sansha don't have a flavor. I always thought that flavor was "lasers with shields" since amarr doesn't really do shield tanks ever. Afterburner speed is an only mildly interesting bonus. Sort of a half-step in the direction of the MWD-sig bonus on other ships. One alternate non-overlap theme might be a cap bonus. That used to be an amarr thing, but the tiericide pass pretty much removed it. And given the cap-suck of lasers...
I really hope you keep the Serpentis web strength bonus where it is. I don't think it's OP at all relative to other pirate bonuses.
AB bonus is far far more powerful than MWD signature bonus. Just run the damm numbers. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:43:00 -
[1334] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Just adding to that ashimmu, C-type med NOS is like 3mil buy-order currently. So you get your 16.5km BR nos to your 20km web, which isn't terrible afterall.
Ashimmu will be fine. Even imperial nos matches the non bonused webs of the enemy ship ensurign that you can use your nos after you long web a target. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
King Rothgar
Aegis Interplanetary .Inc Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
379
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:26:00 -
[1335] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:King Rothgar wrote:If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.
If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:
1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.
2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.
See the problem?
The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.
The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu. That is complete lack of understanding of small scale cobmat (where the ashimmu will be used). Have you even used an ashimmu? The web range bonus will be a HUGE buff to the ashimmu. Its largest problem nowadays is to CATCH its prey not to stop it compeltely (That the neuts will eventually do as well). The ashimmu is among the slwoest cruisers around, web range bonus will finally make it it useful against smart players in cruisers as well There is a reason why we ( the corp) bought about 50 ashimmus when the changes were announced). BEcause they wil lbe come among the best ships for small gang combat (no small gang is not 50 peopel for you nullbearers, its 3 or 4 people). And we know a LOT about this small scale engagement stuff.
Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 00:34:00 -
[1336] - Quote
I've never done any testing on Sisi but these pirate frig changes will motivate me just so I can show how bad the Cruor is nerfed and hopefully Rise wises up. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2222
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 06:13:00 -
[1337] - Quote
all of these look great, especially the worm, and I'm excited to see how this will work for the other ships. Blood and Sansha look pretty good too. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
520
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 14:17:00 -
[1338] - Quote
I think the major misconception in this thread is the idea that the cruor has to be a brawler. Assuming every pirate ship has to be used in direct combat. Where as the cruor fulfills a perfect support position. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
72
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 14:22:00 -
[1339] - Quote
As a suggestion, how about this for Blood Raider ships as the Minmatar bonus -
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Stasis Webifier range and effectiveness.
Now that would be a very cool bonus. Perhaps a little powerful, but it could always be toned down, and then gives blood raiders a unique place in the overall ship lineup. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 15:28:00 -
[1340] - Quote
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 50% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range
Role Bonus: 75% bonus to Small Energy Turret range 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level.
ASHIMMU
Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range
Minmatar Cruiser Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level.
like this the web range bonus would make sense and put the fighting range on both ships to ~20km like the bhaalgorn sure this steps of the toes of the curse and sentinel but so does the web range bonus and the other pirate ships in one way or another, curse and sentinel will still be better in their role like this blood ships would be a nice cross between the amarr and minmatar recons Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 15:34:00 -
[1341] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 50% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range
Role Bonus: 75% bonus to Small Energy Turret range 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level. You must be trolling, these are crazily OP bonuses.
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 15:37:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 50% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range
Role Bonus: 75% bonus to Small Energy Turret range 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level. You must be trolling, these are crazily OP bonuses.
yeiks I forgot to mention that the cruor should get 3H 4M 3L that would give it the same neuting power as it has right now with 2 webs 2 250% neuts would indeed be too much Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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King Rothgar
Aegis Interplanetary .Inc Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
380
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 03:54:00 -
[1343] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:I think the major misconception in this thread is the idea that the cruor has to be a brawler. Assuming every pirate ship has to be used in direct combat. Where as the cruor fulfills a perfect support position.
Not every ship needs to be a brawler. This is true of pirate ships as well as other types. However, when every attribute of the ship except a single bonus is based around short ranged combat, then yes, it's a brawler. If they want to make the blood raider ships kiting ships then I am not necessarily opposed to that. The web range bonus change would be fine if the other bonuses reflected a longer range role. But that would require a neut/nos range bonus and an energy turret range bonus too (or shift to drone boat). They didn't do that. They left everything on the ship as point blank brawler and then tossed in a range bonus to the webs. It's inconsistent and of no practical value.
And for those who simply want a long range web, as I've said before, you already have those on the minmatar EAF's and recons. There is no shortage of dedicated long range webbers. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1331
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 10:10:00 -
[1344] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:King Rothgar wrote:If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.
If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:
1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.
2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.
See the problem?
The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.
The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu. That is complete lack of understanding of small scale cobmat (where the ashimmu will be used). Have you even used an ashimmu? The web range bonus will be a HUGE buff to the ashimmu. Its largest problem nowadays is to CATCH its prey not to stop it compeltely (That the neuts will eventually do as well). The ashimmu is among the slwoest cruisers around, web range bonus will finally make it it useful against smart players in cruisers as well There is a reason why we ( the corp) bought about 50 ashimmus when the changes were announced). BEcause they wil lbe come among the best ships for small gang combat (no small gang is not 50 peopel for you nullbearers, its 3 or 4 people). And we know a LOT about this small scale engagement stuff. Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity.
AHAHAHA that is good one
Can you dare to point how many small scale PVP groups can outmatch us? There are afew.. very very few. You are not one of them.
Your statement crumbles on itself. What you are going to do with yuour all halted at 23km when you cannto neut them? You will get CLOSER. Thta is obvious. And anyoen that knwos how toi pilto wil avoid getting under 25 km from an ashimmu. Sicne the ashimmu is slow.. it is not easy to use its 90% web. The long range web is far weaker. But much easier to leverage in combat with the restricted ashimmu mobility. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1332
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 10:51:00 -
[1345] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:As a suggestion, how about this for Blood Raider ships as the Minmatar bonus -
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Stasis Webifier range and effectiveness.
Now that would be a very cool bonus. Perhaps a little powerful, but it could always be toned down, and then gives blood raiders a unique place in the overall ship lineup.
6% would be a less abusive approach. The 2 bonuses combined are very very powerful. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
294
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 03:20:00 -
[1346] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:King Rothgar wrote:
Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity.
AHAHAHA that is good one Can you dare to point how many small scale PVP groups can outmatch us? There are afew.. very very few. You are not one of them. Your statement crumbles on itself. What you are going to do with yuour all halted at 23km when you cannto neut them? You will get CLOSER. Thta is obvious. And anyoen that knwos how toi pilto wil avoid getting under 25 km from an ashimmu. Sicne the ashimmu is slow.. it is not easy to use its 90% web. The long range web is far weaker. But much easier to leverage in combat with the restricted ashimmu mobility. THe web change on the ashimmu wil change the ship, but combined with the new nos capability the ship wil be slighly more usable (altouygh with a weaker apex power). The cruor on other hand will be a disaster
His statement is 100% accurate m8. people dont build fleets around the ashimmu GOING to get webs they build fleets around bringing the enemys to the ashimmu via sensor damps. the 90% web and the neuting power synergize so well with the ashimmu its amazing. Any gang that knows how to pilot will either warp off or be forced under 25km to continue the engagement period.
The web range bonus does nothing to help the ashimmu. so now the ashimmu has to surrender 2 mids to webs instead of 1 mid to continue neuting a target. the nos bonus is completely useless on the ashimmu as nobody would EVER fit it to the ashimmu for ANY SERIOUS nueting duty. Everybody who uses them already has guardians cap trans the ashimmu's 5 medium neuts
Now somebody suggest mixing the bonus on the ashimmu and cruor making is have a mixed 7.5% range and effectiveness to the web. this wouldnt completely nerf the ashimmu but it would certinaly not make it to OP like serpentis ships |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 08:25:00 -
[1347] - Quote
So.... those ppl suggesting to give cruor and ashimmu web range AND strenght must have bought a big stockpile |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 11:22:00 -
[1348] - Quote
Giullare wrote:So.... those ppl suggesting to give cruor and ashimmu web range AND strenght must have bought a big stockpile
A 6% bonus as suggested would give a web range of 16.9km overheated and 78% web strength. Which is very nice and unique, although is not as overpowered as you suggest |
Spr09
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 20:55:00 -
[1349] - Quote
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps. |
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 03:54:00 -
[1350] - Quote
Spr09 wrote:They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.
The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them. |
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
691
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 09:44:00 -
[1351] - Quote
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Spr09 wrote:They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps. The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them.
Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective.
In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 16:50:00 -
[1352] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Spr09 wrote:They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps. The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them. Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective. In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones. I hope you realize that EWAR drones really aren't good at all.
On a related note, will these changes be going out to singularity anytime soon? Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
691
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 17:23:00 -
[1353] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Spr09 wrote:They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps. The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them. Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective. In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones. I hope you realize that EWAR drones really aren't good at all. ...
I'm not so sure. A set of EC-300's are extremely effective against most targets* when you want to escape a situation you can't otherwise win. The (over) power of ECM drones has been the subject of many, many impassioned forum posts. The loss of the ability to fly 5 of these is a very damaging nerf to the ship's ability to avoid engagements it does not want.
* does not include battleships, HACs and T3 layouts with the sensor booster subsystem (almost none of them). Thus they are effective against all frigates, most cruisers and battlecruisers.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 18:05:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Joe Boirele wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kapytul Gaynez wrote:Spr09 wrote:They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps. The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them. Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective. In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones. I hope you realize that EWAR drones really aren't good at all. ... I'm not so sure. A set of EC-300's are extremely effective against most targets* when you want to escape a situation you can't otherwise win. The (over) power of ECM drones has been the subject of many, many impassioned forum posts. The loss of the ability to fly 5 of these is a very damaging nerf to the ship's ability to avoid engagements it does not want. * does not include battleships, HACs and T3 layouts with the sensor booster subsystem (almost none of them). Thus they are effective against all frigates, most cruisers and battlecruisers. Alright, ECM-300s are marginally useful. But a 44.5% jam chance with five versus a non-skilled non-eccmed tristan isn't too great in my book. Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
476
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 18:42:00 -
[1355] - Quote
Spr09 wrote:They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.
Yes, but these two small drones have the EHP of a decently fit attack frigate with a sig radius that makes interceptors green with envy.
Good luck with killing them before they (and the Worm that launched them) kill you. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 18:45:00 -
[1356] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Spr09 wrote:They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0. With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps. Yes, but these two small drones have the EHP of a decently fit attack frigate with a sig radius that makes interceptors green with envy. Good luck with killing them before they (and the Worm that launched them) kill you.
Not to mention they have three buddies waiting in the drone bay Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
93
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 19:50:00 -
[1357] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:Alright, ECM-300s are marginally useful. But a 44.5% jam chance with five versus a non-skilled non-eccmed tristan isn't too great in my book.
Alright lets be honest here, you know damn well if it were you in that tristan, that 44.5% chance is actually equivellant to about 400% chance to jam. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
103
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 20:26:00 -
[1358] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Worm: Bad I really dislike this idea of two super drones, as already mentioned it become a simple matter to just neuter the worm by only needing to kill two drones. Even if they have higher EHP it's not as though they have the buffer a frig, and will die easily.
Someone did the math earlier. They do basically end up with the buffer of a frig. Obviously not the buffer of a brick Vengeance or Wolf but still a fair amount of HP. With 3 spares on board killing off a worms drones will be harder than some of you are thinking.
As for not being able to launch a full flight of ECM drones... That seems like such a minor nerf compared to getting a lot more drone damage/hp and more missile damage. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 20:28:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Joe Boirele wrote:Alright, ECM-300s are marginally useful. But a 44.5% jam chance with five versus a non-skilled non-eccmed tristan isn't too great in my book. Alright lets be honest here, you know damn well if it were you in that tristan, that 44.5% chance is actually equivellant to about 400% chance to jam.
With my luck, the other pilot would probably get 10 wrecking hits in, then my socket would close and I'd get podded.
Change opinions* Worm: My only concern is the (possible) vulnerability of the two drones. Succumbus: Unique.
*everything else I have no opinion on.
Personally, I think the best way to figure out the bonuses would be to put the changes up on singularity. theorycrafting is great, but actual combat is better. Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Catherine Laartii
Knights of Xibalba
105
|
Posted - 2014.03.17 00:17:00 -
[1360] - Quote
I find it amusing that angel cartel ships, being based off of jovian technology from their first empire, are still considered fairly low-tech...perhaps altering them a bit to refocus a bit more on their damage projection could be ideal; 20% bonus to falloff per level might be interesting.
I'm also still kind of scratching my head over the sansha thing. Aren't they supposed to be armor in the lore? They drop armor loot, the NPCs rep armor, wouldn't giving them some kind of bonus, either with resists or reps then predisposing their fitting slots a little more towards armor make a bit more sense?
I mean, I don't really mind the ab bonus; it's quite nice and has a lot of interesting applications. But I would like to see them changed to armor, OR come to think of it, have equal viability with both. A good idea might be tinkering with their slots a bit, and making them strict combat ships.
For example:
Succubus would get 2/4/4 slot setup, equal HP for shield and armor. Focus would be on high performance especially with capacitor.
Phant would get 4/5/5 slot loadout and an extra gun slot. Would do more dps, and in addition, it and the others would get a 10% optimal range bonus per level for lasers.
Nightmare would get 5/7/7 slot loadout, and with the optimal range bonus and cap buff, would no doubt be extremely powerful in most situations. |
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King Rothgar
Aegis Interplanetary .Inc Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
383
|
Posted - 2014.03.17 00:52:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:King Rothgar wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:King Rothgar wrote:If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.
If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:
1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.
2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.
See the problem?
The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.
The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu. That is complete lack of understanding of small scale cobmat (where the ashimmu will be used). Have you even used an ashimmu? The web range bonus will be a HUGE buff to the ashimmu. Its largest problem nowadays is to CATCH its prey not to stop it compeltely (That the neuts will eventually do as well). The ashimmu is among the slwoest cruisers around, web range bonus will finally make it it useful against smart players in cruisers as well There is a reason why we ( the corp) bought about 50 ashimmus when the changes were announced). BEcause they wil lbe come among the best ships for small gang combat (no small gang is not 50 peopel for you nullbearers, its 3 or 4 people). And we know a LOT about this small scale engagement stuff. Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity. AHAHAHA that is good one Can you dare to point how many small scale PVP groups can outmatch us? There are afew.. very very few. You are not one of them. Your statement crumbles on itself. What you are going to do with yuour all halted at 23km when you cannto neut them? You will get CLOSER. Thta is obvious. And anyoen that knwos how toi pilto wil avoid getting under 25 km from an ashimmu. Sicne the ashimmu is slow.. it is not easy to use its 90% web. The long range web is far weaker. But much easier to leverage in combat with the restricted ashimmu mobility. THe web change on the ashimmu wil change the ship, but combined with the new nos capability the ship wil be slighly more usable (altouygh with a weaker apex power). The cruor on other hand will be a disaster
Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.
As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.
As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
94
|
Posted - 2014.03.17 07:59:00 -
[1362] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km. ^^^^ This guy gets it, web range bonus is unneccessary on these ships, and the Cruor gets hurt the most with this change, it's not doing anything meaningful at the ranges you will be webbing at, and in reality if you want added web range on your Cruor just spring for a faction web, or if you want to be extra cheesy add links. Without the velocity bonus the Cruor gets heavily neutered. While I've never flown an Ashimmu myself I would imagine it would benefit from a range bonus, but the velocity bonus is just too nice a bonus to throw away. I know a lot of people complain it's too strong and thats a valid complaint but these ships barely function well now with the bonus.
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.17 18:53:00 -
[1363] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote: Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.
As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.
As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.
do you think it would be better if the cruor was able to neut and shoot(with scorch) at 20km? and also gets 4 mids 3highs with 1 neut that has a stronger bonus keeping the neut amount the same so it can fit 2 webs or a cap booster
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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King Rothgar
Aegis Interplanetary .Inc Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
383
|
Posted - 2014.03.17 23:58:00 -
[1364] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:King Rothgar wrote: Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.
As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.
As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.
do you think it would be better if the cruor was able to neut and shoot(with scorch) at 20km? and also gets 4 mids 3highs with 1 neut that has a stronger bonus keeping the neut amount the same so it can fit 2 webs or a cap booster
I don't really care either way tbh. The only thing I'm trying to drive in is that the bonuses need to be complementary. Brawler with the current slot layout/fittings, 90% web and the new NOS bonus would be acceptable. It would still be a little weak in dps and very average for tank, but the ability to cap someone out is powerful by itself, so it would be ok.
If it is converted to something akin to a sentinel with a web instead of TD, that could also work. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 00:23:00 -
[1365] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:King Rothgar wrote: Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.
As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.
As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.
do you think it would be better if the cruor was able to neut and shoot(with scorch) at 20km? and also gets 4 mids 3highs with 1 neut that has a stronger bonus keeping the neut amount the same so it can fit 2 webs or a cap booster I don't really care either way tbh. The only thing I'm trying to drive in is that the bonuses need to be complementary. Brawler with the current slot layout/fittings, 90% web and the new NOS bonus would be acceptable. It would still be a little weak in dps and very average for tank, but the ability to cap someone out is powerful by itself, so it would be ok. If it is converted to something akin to a sentinel with a web range bonus instead of TD bonus, that could also work. I think a 4th midslot would solve a lot of problems regardless of which route is followed. How about a web effectiveness and range bonus as suggested earlier. That would make the ship very nice to use. A 5% bonus per level will give the blood ships around 3km extra range to their 75% webs, which although not as good as 90% webs, they are still very awesome combined with the additional range. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 14:26:00 -
[1366] - Quote
The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.
As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.
The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)
With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.
In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.
Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad. |
Dyniss
Burning Skies Apocalypse Now.
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 15:07:00 -
[1367] - Quote
The Worm changes and pretty much the entire line of Gurista pirate faction listed changes are stupid. Not only do you lose the ability to launch ewar drones effectively, but also logistical ones as well. And a kinetic missile bonus? WTF? I find it funny how CCP removed almost all the kinetic missile damage bonuses off the Caldari line of ships in favor of a missile rate of fire bonus stating that locking a single damage type into a weapon system was a stupid idea. Way to go... You are now effectively killing off the Gurista's missile damage and cutting their drone bay and bandwidth in half. Smaller drones may be fine with this change (hardly), but larger drones which are slow and easy to hit will still die quite fast. And when they do die you will quickly lose your effective damage output. Frankly if CCP decides to implement these stupid changes to some of my most favorite ships to use, I will be quickly selling them off in favor of something else. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 16:39:00 -
[1368] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:The Worm changes and pretty much the entire line of Gurista pirate faction listed changes are stupid. Not only do you lose the ability to launch ewar drones effectively, but also logistical ones as well. And a kinetic missile bonus? WTF? I find it funny how CCP removed almost all the kinetic missile damage bonuses off the Caldari line of ships in favor of a missile rate of fire bonus stating that locking a single damage type into a weapon system was a stupid idea. Way to go... You are now effectively killing off the Gurista's missile damage and cutting their drone bay and bandwidth in half. Smaller drones may be fine with this change (hardly), but larger drones which are slow and easy to hit will still die quite fast. And when they do die you will quickly lose your effective damage output. Frankly if CCP decides to implement these stupid changes to some of my most favorite ships to use, I will be quickly selling them off in favor of something else. Man, please think a bit about it before talking ! If they go this route with larger drones, one Ogre II would have 16kehp with 100m signature ! Again, if anything is fool enough to try to kill such drones, he will take ages to do that, and the missiles of the gurista ship alone will have time to kill this idiot.
Granted, logistic and ewar drones are a lot worse with that, but a drone ship using these is doing it wrong anyway...
As for the missile bonus, the ship goes from no damage bonus to a kinetic damage bonus. That a straight buff, and there is absolutely no way on earth you can call that a lock in anything, because compared to before, that's a strraight plus if you use kinetic !
And missiles users should really get in their head that kinetic bonus damage do NOT prevent them from using other damage types and do NOT remove them the ability to select damage. There is only one case where this is not 100% true, it's with the 10% bonus per level ; yet you still have infinitely better damage selection against T2/T3 hull than hybrids or lasers.
The problem with larger hulls will come from the swarm of deadly small/medium drones. I'm eager to see what they will do to avoid the ship being completely OP. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
106
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 18:02:00 -
[1369] - Quote
To the last two posters: It gets Kin AND Therm damage bonuses for missiles. So it is not locked into one type. |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 18:20:00 -
[1370] - Quote
T1 dominix and t2 ishtar are still way better than guristas hull, that's because of optimal range and tracking bonus.
Guristas tree need @ least these bonuses to not be subpar. |
|
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
476
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 18:22:00 -
[1371] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:The Worm changes and pretty much the entire line of Gurista pirate faction listed changes are stupid. Not only do you lose the ability to launch ewar drones effectively, but also logistical ones as well. And a kinetic missile bonus? WTF? I find it funny how CCP removed almost all the kinetic missile damage bonuses off the Caldari line of ships in favor of a missile rate of fire bonus stating that locking a single damage type into a weapon system was a stupid idea. Way to go... You are now effectively killing off the Gurista's missile damage and cutting their drone bay and bandwidth in half. Smaller drones may be fine with this change (hardly), but larger drones which are slow and easy to hit will still die quite fast. And when they do die you will quickly lose your effective damage output. Frankly if CCP decides to implement these stupid changes to some of my most favorite ships to use, I will be quickly selling them off in favor of something else.
1. And nothing of value was lost. ECM drones? On a ship whose purpose is missile+ drone damage? Dumb.
2. It's kin/therm, you know. Better than just kinetic but not as good as a blanket bonus to all.
3. This is hilarious. You think Guristas' missile damage is going to nosedive. Well let me tell you something. New Worm? About 83 DPS out of two launchers. Same range and DPS as a punisher with dual pulses and Scorch. As compared to like... 40-ish DPS from completely unbonused launchers now, which is garbage. Then you have maybe 150 dps coming out of two drones... With attack frigate EHP and microscopic sig radii...
4. Firesale all of your Gurista ships to me for 500k ISK a piece if you think they're going to be that awful.
I'm noticing a trend. Everyone criticizing the Worm doesn't actually understand the changes, and is only reacting to "THEY ARE CHUNKING THE DRONE BAY DOWN TO NOTHING AUGH THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A DRONE CARRIER WITH FIVE DRONES THAT I CAN MICROMANAGE BEAUSE I THINK MICROMANAGING FIVE 5% DAMAGE PER LEVEL OF GALLENTE FRIGATE DRONES IS FUN".
If you need to read over the changes more than once, do so- the Worm may actually be in a good, usable position after this. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 19:20:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.
As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.
The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)
With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.
In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.
Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.
yes switching the web bonus to range without giving it a neut range bonus is a harsh nerf to the cruor because it will loose its ability to keep its neuts on the target for any significant amount of time against ship with a web of their own
also just pointing out that there are only 10km small nos no neuts
the power grid they removed from it is also not helping the ship in the slightest Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 19:37:00 -
[1373] - Quote
Aglais wrote:
3. This is hilarious. You think Guristas' missile damage is going to nosedive. Well let me tell you something. New Worm? About 83 DPS out of two launchers. Same range and DPS as a punisher with dual pulses and Scorch. As compared to like... 40-ish DPS from completely unbonused launchers now, which is garbage. Then you have maybe 150 dps coming out of two drones... With attack frigate EHP and microscopic sig radii...
just putting some numbers right
2x rocket launcher = 56dps rage ammo no damage mods (just put 2 launchers on a kestrel) current worm does 146dps with 2 damage mods new worm will do 234dps with 2 damage mods edit: hobgoblin IIs
PS: hob II HP (not ehp) with the bonus is 335s 720a 1775h total of 2830 on an ogre II that would be 1480s 2880a 7105h total of 11465 again this is hp before resists and with the 300% bonus Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2097
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 20:12:00 -
[1374] - Quote
inb4 Fed Navy Hob + Worm |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
94
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 20:17:00 -
[1375] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.
As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.
The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)
With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.
In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.
Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.
You're absolutely clueless aren't you
|
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 20:34:00 -
[1376] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:inb4 Fed Navy Hob + Worm
dps would drop down to 203 from 234 and hp would be 670s 1440a 1480h total of 3590 quite a bit better they are quite a lot slower though Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 23:42:00 -
[1377] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:You're absolutely clueless aren't you Trolling is bad, you shouldn't do that. |
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company Confederated States of EVE
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 08:14:00 -
[1378] - Quote
A number of people's comments about worm changes have no idea what they are talking about. IshKur an assault frigate have bonus of 10% drone hit point per level of skill thus at max skill it would only be doing 5 drone dps. The different in dps is 3 drone not 0.5 drone. Patch to update worm should go together with ishkur drone damage buff. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
94
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 09:09:00 -
[1379] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Dun'Gal wrote:You're absolutely clueless aren't you Trolling is bad, you shouldn't do that. Not trolling just pointing out what should be blatantly obvious to everyone here.
On the subject though, the only reason the Cruor sees any use now is because of the current web bonus. It's DPS isn't great, and it's tank is pathetic at best, the ship is pigeonholed into such a small engagement window right now that taking it into a fight with almost every ship of the same class is like throwing ISK away. It doesn't need a range bonus on that web, nor does it actually need stronger neuts, it needs to be able to either hit harder, or be able fit some kind of reasonable tank. Emphasis on the latter. Tweaks are what's needed on the Cruor, not a complete change. With that said if Rise can come up with a change that helps fill in those other gaps better, THEN and only then will I say ok, a web-range bonus on the Cruor is fine.
As for the larger ships (that's not what this discussion is or should be focused on) but I can agree that the Ashimmu can certainly stand to benefit a lot from a range bonus on the web. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 10:36:00 -
[1380] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:On the subject though, the only reason the Cruor sees any use now is because of the current web bonus. It's DPS isn't great, and it's tank is pathetic at best, the ship is pigeonholed into such a small engagement window right now that taking it into a fight with almost every ship of the same class is like throwing ISK away. It doesn't need a range bonus on that web, nor does it actually need stronger neuts, it needs to be able to either hit harder, or be able fit some kind of reasonable tank. Emphasis on the latter. Tweaks are what's needed on the Cruor, not a complete change. With that said if Rise can come up with a change that helps fill in those other gaps better, THEN and only then will I say ok, a web-range bonus on the Cruor is fine. That would only make the Cruor a worse Daredevil, slower and with less firepower. It needs something to stand appart from the others, because I can't see it compete with the Daredevil without turning it into another Daredevil.
The web might be the reason for the Cruor to live today, yet it's only a "cheap" alternative to the Daredevil. And as long as the Cruor have nothing else than the the web bonus, it always will be a worse Daredevil. Or, at beast it will obsolete the Daredevil. Neither option is good, and all this is because of the redundancy of the almighty 90% web bonus. The Cruor needs something for himself, not something to be a copy of something else.
In this regards, obviously the web range is not ideal, but IMO it's a lot more powerful than some people thinks and it will synergize well with larger hulls of the line. |
|
Vesan Terakol
Sad Face Enterprises
52
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 12:32:00 -
[1381] - Quote
OK, here's me being unreasonable, but keeping with the web discussion for the Cruor and the overall vampire theme of the blood raiders, what if half the speed the webs take from the webbed target is transferred to the webber? That would be pretty unique. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4259327 - more suff in the Zero.Zero collection |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
693
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 14:32:00 -
[1382] - Quote
Vesan Terakol wrote:OK, here's me being unreasonable, but keeping with the web discussion for the Cruor and the overall vampire theme of the blood raiders, what if half the speed the webs take from the webbed target is transferred to the webber? That would be pretty unique.
Isn't that starting to enter the realm of wizards and warlocks?
I think in a space-ship game we should keep an eye on (at least hypothetical) physics.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
296
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 15:25:00 -
[1383] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.
As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.
The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)
With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.
In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.
Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.
with no 90% web your back down to all minmatar ships again being able to run away cuz 60% web sucks. and since most minmatar ships have a plethora of mids they will always have a web of there own.
i dont no anybody who is going to willingly fit 2 faction neuts on a cruor for any reason other than to look like your rich.
i no your out in the cal/gal warzone and the DD is preferred but it is not better than the cruor atm. for ANY task in fw plex fighting the cruor is prefered and better than the daredevil. Because right now, when your capped out you do zero dps or you do zero repping. that is the ONLY reason the cruor see's use today is because it doesnt have to sacrifice 2 mids to hold ONE ship in place for neuting. and if the cruor looses the 90% web it will have to fit 2 webs to hold one ship in place. And that will be the reason why it collects dust in the hanger.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5378
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 16:38:00 -
[1384] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.
As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.
The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)
With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.
In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.
Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad. yes switching the web bonus to range without giving it a neut range bonus is a harsh nerf to the cruor because it will loose its ability to keep its neuts on the target for any significant amount of time against ship with a web of their own also just pointing out that there are only 10km small nos no neuts the power grid they removed from it is also not helping the ship in the slightest I seriously doubt anyone will be running Neuts on this ship, the advantage of a limitless NOS is far more advantageous. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1015
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 17:36:00 -
[1385] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Aglais wrote:
3. This is hilarious. You think Guristas' missile damage is going to nosedive. Well let me tell you something. New Worm? About 83 DPS out of two launchers. Same range and DPS as a punisher with dual pulses and Scorch. As compared to like... 40-ish DPS from completely unbonused launchers now, which is garbage. Then you have maybe 150 dps coming out of two drones... With attack frigate EHP and microscopic sig radii...
just putting some numbers right 2x rocket launcher = 56dps rage ammo no damage mods (just put 2 launchers on a kestrel)^ its 10% you idiot ^ =67dps current worm does 146dps with 2 damage mods new worm will do 234dps with 2 damage mods edit: hobgoblin IIs PS: hob II HP (not ehp) with the bonus is 335s 720a 1775h total of 2830 on an ogre II that would be 1480s 2880a 7105h total of 11465 again this is hp before resists and with the 300% bonus
And then you look at the rattlesnake hull and realise it has many med slots available for drone navigation link in case you think your heavy drones are too slow/easy to hit. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 19:54:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:That would only make the Cruor a worse Daredevil, slower and with less firepower. It needs something to stand appart from the others, because I can't see it compete with the Daredevil without turning it into another Daredevil. I get what you're trying to say, and I know you "think" you are right, but the fact is the Cruor is not now, and would not be a worse Daredevil. The Daredevil is an extremely powerful ship, but the Cruor is one of only a few ships that can reliably give it a run for its money in a straight brawl. Sure there's not a lot of "unique" difference between the two ships, other than the fact that the Cruor also uses neuts, and doesn't do nearly as much damage, but why is that so terrible? The Nos bonus proposed is fine by me, and that alone gives it something unique, but...
Flyinghotpocket wrote:it doesnt have to sacrifice 2 mids to hold ONE ship in place for neuting. and if the cruor looses the 90% web it will have to fit 2 webs to hold one ship in place. And that will be the reason why it collects dust in the hanger. That can't be stressed enough. Needing to fit two webs, in combination with the serious lack of slots on the Cruor will mean the ship never gets used. Please try to argue why two webs won't be necessary - I'll stop you now and point out that pretty well all of the strongest PVP frigates/fits at the moment are either sporting dual webs, or the aforementioned 90% web. |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
398
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 00:20:00 -
[1387] - Quote
At first the idea of longer range Cruor webs appealed to me. When I read opinions from others who didn't like it and the reasons they gave (range disparity between long range webs and small neut/NOS, and the Cruor generally being slow), it swayed my own opinion.
But it seems like these are pretty set in stone, yeah?
I guess the only thing to ask, barring any potential changes, is when will we see ideas for pirate cruisers? DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
108
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Posted - 2014.03.20 02:54:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Web range bonus will be awesome on the Ashimmu and Bhaalgorn. But the Cruor is essentially dead. All the Cruor really needed was a speed and agility boost and a slight buff to damage. This change makes zero sense to me and I'm curious what the thought process behind it was.
The way I see it if the Cruor is brawl fit it can't (or rather it shouldn't) use its extended web range as that would simply help its target escape as the web range is longer than the scram range. Once it scrams it's target it's not really more effective than any other laser brawler, especially if they aren't active tanked, have their own nos, have a cap booster or have non-cap reliant DPS (rockets/drones/autocannons)... then there's always the option to not get within the nos/neut range since 1 unbonused web isn't really going to dictate range. It's also not that tanky so there's also the option to just blap it with high DPS before its nos starts to have any real impact.
If it's range fit... why aren't you in a Hyena?
Anyway, my Cruor will be collecting dust but I'll be looking forward to finally flying the Ashimmu assuming it gets the web range bonus. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
296
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 03:21:00 -
[1389] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Web range bonus will be awesome on the Ashimmu and Bhaalgorn. But the Cruor is essentially dead. All the Cruor really needed was a speed and agility boost and a slight buff to damage. This change makes zero sense to me and I'm curious what the thought process behind it was.
The way I see it if the Cruor is brawl fit it can't (or rather it shouldn't) use its extended web range as that would simply help its target escape as the web range is longer than the scram range. Once it scrams it's target it's not really more effective than any other laser brawler, especially if they aren't active tanked, have their own nos, have a cap booster or have non-cap reliant DPS (rockets/drones/autocannons)... then there's always the option to not get within the nos/neut range since 1 unbonused web isn't really going to dictate range. It's also not that tanky so there's also the option to just blap it with high DPS before its nos starts to have any real impact.
If it's range fit... why aren't you in a Hyena?
Anyway, my Cruor will be collecting dust but I'll be looking forward to finally flying the Ashimmu assuming it gets the web range bonus. what are you feeling ok? this would be so worse on the ashimmu. again here we go on with sacrificing 2 mids to holding something in place because the ashimmu is the slowest ship in the game. EVEN CURRENTLY the ashimmu with 1 90% web most thing will be able to get away because the ashimmu is SOOOOOOOOO SLLLLOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. there is no way the new ashimmu with a web range bonus will be usefull.
honestly ccp the bhaal should have gotten the 90% web and the whole blood line should have the 90% webs. and give the serpentis the web range bonus, because the serpentis ships already have a falloff bonus they are ALREADY setup to range fight better than ANY blood raider ship. |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
2
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Posted - 2014.03.20 06:03:00 -
[1390] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Web range bonus will be awesome on the Ashimmu and Bhaalgorn. But the Cruor is essentially dead. All the Cruor really needed was a speed and agility boost and a slight buff to damage. This change makes zero sense to me and I'm curious what the thought process behind it was.
I've been thinking the same thing about thought process. I'm not super familiar with Rise background but seem to remember he was a pvper. I want to understand how the Cruor changes came about. I'm hoping major changes like these are actually discussed from a pvp perspective and not just a lore/consistency one.
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Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 09:19:00 -
[1391] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:Aglais wrote:
3. This is hilarious. You think Guristas' missile damage is going to nosedive. Well let me tell you something. New Worm? About 83 DPS out of two launchers. Same range and DPS as a punisher with dual pulses and Scorch. As compared to like... 40-ish DPS from completely unbonused launchers now, which is garbage. Then you have maybe 150 dps coming out of two drones... With attack frigate EHP and microscopic sig radii...
just putting some numbers right 2x rocket launcher = 56dps rage ammo no damage mods (just put 2 launchers on a kestrel)^ its 10% you idiot ^ =67dps current worm does 146dps with 2 damage mods new worm will do 234dps with 2 damage mods edit: hobgoblin IIs PS: hob II HP (not ehp) with the bonus is 335s 720a 1775h total of 2830 on an ogre II that would be 1480s 2880a 7105h total of 11465 again this is hp before resists and with the 300% bonus And then you look at the rattlesnake hull and realise it has many med slots available for drone navigation link in case you think your heavy drones are too slow/easy to hit.
I heard that med slots are used to fit mwd or mjd / tank / cap booster / tackling mod. dominix and ishtar have free omnidir. and drone navig. comp. built-in. Now it doesn't make sense a pirate drone boat has a worse drone damage application than t1/2 hulls.
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 11:27:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:That can't be stressed enough. Needing to fit two webs, in combination with the serious lack of slots on the Cruor will mean the ship never gets used. Please try to argue why two webs won't be necessary - I'll stop you now and point out that pretty well all of the strongest PVP frigates/fits at the moment are either sporting dual webs, or the aforementioned 90% web. Indeed speed control is extremely strong, that's why we had a winmatar theme before the rebalance, and why midslot heavy frigates are so powerful in the meta. Yet the Comet have none of that and is widely regarded as one of the best pvp frigate. You can't make all ships with 4 mid slots or 90% web bonus just because everyone want to use its toy for brawling, and that's even not necessary, because 3 midslots are largely *enough*. Your target can't kill you by fleeing, and the nos assure the Cruor a strong position for anything too close.
In fact, this debate remind me the time when people asked their blaster ships to be the fastest because they wouldn't catch anything otherwise. That's a nonsense. Everyone complain its ships aren't fast enough or don't have enough mid slots. People just never have enough of these.
Speed and speed controle is extremely powerful in the game and very hard to balance, yet a bit overrated ; and you can't make all the ships have the same speed, that would be boring. Of course, the lack of speed controle put you in a more passive place where you can't always kill the target if she doesn't want to fight. But most of the time, when she decides to flee its too late.
Giving speed controle to any ship will turn it into a brawling monster, until all ships have speed controle and that means nothing anymore. This is not the solution.
And the magic nos have a lot of potential to make this frigate OP, so I understand the removal of the almost OP web. Also, keep in mind that anything caught too close will quickly be unable to run its prop mod. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
108
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 11:29:00 -
[1393] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Web range bonus will be awesome on the Ashimmu and Bhaalgorn. But the Cruor is essentially dead. All the Cruor really needed was a speed and agility boost and a slight buff to damage. This change makes zero sense to me and I'm curious what the thought process behind it was.
The way I see it if the Cruor is brawl fit it can't (or rather it shouldn't) use its extended web range as that would simply help its target escape as the web range is longer than the scram range. Once it scrams it's target it's not really more effective than any other laser brawler, especially if they aren't active tanked, have their own nos, have a cap booster or have non-cap reliant DPS (rockets/drones/autocannons)... then there's always the option to not get within the nos/neut range since 1 unbonused web isn't really going to dictate range. It's also not that tanky so there's also the option to just blap it with high DPS before its nos starts to have any real impact.
If it's range fit... why aren't you in a Hyena?
Anyway, my Cruor will be collecting dust but I'll be looking forward to finally flying the Ashimmu assuming it gets the web range bonus. what are you feeling ok? this would be so worse on the ashimmu. again here we go on with sacrificing 2 mids to holding something in place because the ashimmu is the slowest ship in the game. EVEN CURRENTLY the ashimmu with 1 90% web most thing will be able to get away because the ashimmu is SOOOOOOOOO SLLLLOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. there is no way the new ashimmu with a web range bonus will be usefull. honestly ccp the bhaal should have gotten the 90% web and the whole blood line should have the 90% webs. and give the serpentis the web range bonus, because the serpentis ships already have a falloff bonus they are ALREADY setup to range fight better than ANY blood raider ship. Brawling in scram range isn't necessarily a smart idea to do in 70% of situations with the Ashimmu. Scorch projects to over 20km and Neuts and Nos project to 12.6-14km depending on whether they're faction or meta. Web range bonus will benefit the Ashimmu immensely. I would also be surprised if the Ashimmu didn't receive at least a slight speed buff.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the serpentis getting a web range bonus. Falloff bonus on the daredevil with null hits roughly the same range as scram. Giving it a web range bonus would be pointless unless you want to force all daredevils to use rails. Vigilant falloff bonus gives it decent damage up to about overheated web range bonus. Again giving it a web range bonus isn't that useful. Shield Vigilant with 2x TEs can hit semi-decently up to 20km but has tissue tank. Even before the TE nerf anti-support shield Vigilant faced heavy competition from the Vagabond and Cynabal. For Vindicator 90% webs are needed for it to track. Web range bonus isn't useful since other battleship sized guns are going to hit you even at your extended web range so range kiting isn't really worth it.
Lasers typically don't have the best DPS or tracking. Their advantage is their optimal and web range bonus helps them keep things at their optimal. This however doesn't apply on the frigate level where scorch already hits up to unheated web range and where small neuts have a lower range than scorch.
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
298
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Posted - 2014.03.20 14:07:00 -
[1394] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Web range bonus will be awesome on the Ashimmu and Bhaalgorn. But the Cruor is essentially dead. All the Cruor really needed was a speed and agility boost and a slight buff to damage. This change makes zero sense to me and I'm curious what the thought process behind it was.
The way I see it if the Cruor is brawl fit it can't (or rather it shouldn't) use its extended web range as that would simply help its target escape as the web range is longer than the scram range. Once it scrams it's target it's not really more effective than any other laser brawler, especially if they aren't active tanked, have their own nos, have a cap booster or have non-cap reliant DPS (rockets/drones/autocannons)... then there's always the option to not get within the nos/neut range since 1 unbonused web isn't really going to dictate range. It's also not that tanky so there's also the option to just blap it with high DPS before its nos starts to have any real impact.
If it's range fit... why aren't you in a Hyena?
Anyway, my Cruor will be collecting dust but I'll be looking forward to finally flying the Ashimmu assuming it gets the web range bonus. what are you feeling ok? this would be so worse on the ashimmu. again here we go on with sacrificing 2 mids to holding something in place because the ashimmu is the slowest ship in the game. EVEN CURRENTLY the ashimmu with 1 90% web most thing will be able to get away because the ashimmu is SOOOOOOOOO SLLLLOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. there is no way the new ashimmu with a web range bonus will be usefull. honestly ccp the bhaal should have gotten the 90% web and the whole blood line should have the 90% webs. and give the serpentis the web range bonus, because the serpentis ships already have a falloff bonus they are ALREADY setup to range fight better than ANY blood raider ship. Brawling in scram range isn't necessarily a smart idea to do in 70% of situations with the Ashimmu. Scorch projects to over 20km and Neuts and Nos project to 12.6-14km depending on whether they're faction or meta. Web range bonus will benefit the Ashimmu immensely. I would also be surprised if the Ashimmu didn't receive at least a slight speed buff.
WHAT? now your really high. brawling in scram range is ALLLLLL the ashimmu does right now. it is to SLOW to do ANYTHING else. i cant beleive you are arguing for the amazing 160 dps the ashimmu can put out. when most other cruisers these days are pushing 400, nay 600 dps these days. the ashimmu does not do damage. the ashimmu does not kite. the ashimmu gets a target. latches on a like a tick ONLY because it has 90% webs. and nuets the crap out of it. IN NO OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE IS THE ASHIMMU EVER USED. with the exception of baiting a fight so people can kill a 140mil mini legion.
what ccp and you are suggest is the that the ashimmu will be cursed just like the cruor in having to sacrifice 2 mids for webing power to hold down ONE target. and many people are going to argue that "you dont need your cap injector anymore you have a nos bro!" really? what is the 12gj's of cap stealing gonna do for your cap heavy ship? NOTHING.
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Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
145
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 14:58:00 -
[1395] - Quote
Don't have the time to read 70 pages... has anyone asked this:
If Guristas ships will only have 2 drones with a massive damage bonus (btw, I like the idea), have you thought about the repercussions on drone fleets? The Guristas ships will effectively be able to ignore the newly introduced 50-drones-assist-cap. |
Iam Kikas
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
22
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:56:00 -
[1396] - Quote
First off, I am coming from a "I usually fly solo (usually without links, sometimes with...but don't want to depend upon them) in low sec looking for a decent fight" perspective...I will try to gank unwary fw people but generally far more entertained by someone who shoots back.
What has made the t1 frigates worthwhile since the rebalancing is that you can fit them properly...you still have reasonable constraints on pg/cpu but allows for the flexibility for various good fits / theories. The faction frigs seem to suffer from the design philosophy "oh god, these will be op" so seem to have a fitting gimp factor built into them. IMO the faction frigs should be head and shoulders above the t1's - you should be able to fit a brawler top to bottom in t2 modules, for example. Pimp should be just that...you want to augment a specific characteristic...not something you need just to be competitive (faction AB's on a cruor or succubus just to catch up with people for example). Pirate faction frigs should be like very high end cars...very expensive with tangible benefits.
So, quite frankly I did not wade through 79 pages of replies to this post but have been pondering the faction frigs and why I fly them (or not) and this is my 2 isks worth:
Across the board:
Make the rig calibration 400 (and drop the req. calibration on damage rigs by 50 so everyone can buff damage if they desire on any frigate).
Buff the armor / shield resists slightly (particularly Succubus and Cruor)...I hear the argument that these are t1 frigs...true, but they require 2x the sp to fly the hull properly. Make them slightly better than the t1 but under t2. Combined with the rigs they should be as tanky and competitive against an AF if brawler fit (try to go toe to toe with a good enyo or hawk pilot in a cruor...it almost always ends very badly).
Specifics:
Cruor - keep the web % bonus, skip the web range bonus, buff the damage and give it more speed. Drop one utility high and add a low. Give it Nuet / Nos range bonus and drop the amount drained bonus (pre-nerf nos is interesting as a role bonus...).
Succubus...fix the cap. More speed...right now it is like an overpriced version of a very bad assault ship. Drop one high and add a mid. Buff PG/CPU.
Worm...I am intrigued about proposed changes. I'll withhold judgment till I see what more creative people come up with in terms of fits, etc. Right now it is too slow and too anemic to be effective in frig pvp.
Dram - leave it alone...it is fine as is since the last rebalancing. Still good enough to be a faction frigate.
Daredevil - leave it alone...it is fine as is. Though I would like to see the high dropped and replaced by a low slot...a fairly worthless HS, imo. I hear people whining about the 90% webs being OP...figure out the counter or run...you shouldn't be able to fight every frig out there in any one frig. Does need a bit of pg/cpu...maybe drop the damage bonus a bit to accommodate this. The only thing that makes this frig competitive is the 90% web...otherwise it is pretty squishy.
General question here: Why does CCP insist on making lazor boats with nuets/nos the worst in terms of cap? Fix this...it's silly and makes me wonder about the general intelligence level of amarr engineers. "Gee Bob, I have an idea...lets be able to shoot our LAYZZOR BEEAMS and AB around at 850 m/s for 44s in a fight...doesn't that seem effective...? Great Idea, Tom, God be praised you are here with such good ideas - and let's have 32s w/ an MWD if we want to go the crazy speed of 1100 m/s."
Finally editorial commentary on links for frigate fighting (or cruisers for that matter). Stop the madness. Make it so links have to be on grid, make them progressively more effective the more people are in fleet up to a squad strength or something...ie if solo with a booster, they have to be on grid with you and you only get 20% effective boosts or something. Have the booster show up on killmails. Not against links...just their current iteration. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
112
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 17:12:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:Don't have the time to read 70 pages... has anyone asked this:
If Guristas ships will only have 2 drones with a massive damage bonus (btw, I like the idea), have you thought about the repercussions on drone fleets? The Guristas ships will effectively be able to ignore the newly introduced 50-drones-assist-cap.
The general consensus is that we have to wait to see if the Gila or Rattlesnake end up with bonused sentries or not. If the Gila gets super mediums and the Rattler gets super heavies then there is no issue. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:28:00 -
[1398] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Yet the Comet have none of that and is widely regarded as one of the best pvp frigate. Alright I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume you didn't realize you were planting a nail in your coffin by mentioning the Comet. Which I should point out would be picked over the Cruor in virtually every situation once effectiveness bonus is gone. But, let us compare the 2 ships shall we; the Comet is faster, the Comet can fit a better tank, and even when rail fit can do 220ish DPS at the edge of scram range.
Let's compare that to a similarly fit Cruor, and we'll give it the benefit of Pulse Lasers for the extra damage, about 600 less ehp, about 300m/s slower, and barely cracks 160DPS with multi (with a 4.3km optimal) or you can use scorch to hit out to 13km for a whopping 130 DPS. There is a huge difference in comparison between the comet, which I can agree is strong right now, and the Cruor.
In almost all cases, Cruor becomes outmatched by pretty well every T1 frigate with a web if the web change goes through. Sadly even the "OP" Nos isn't saving the Cruor. And before you try to claim that this Cruor would cap out said comet before it loses, just no. The longest range NOS on the market is 10km (Faction) and the Comet above with heated web is still going to hold you outside that range, and for as long as it needs to kill you (not long.)
Your web range bonus is completely meaningless inside 13km, and outside of that what are you planning to do? Web your targets into warp? Try and coax that mwd ship who is still faster than you (even while webbed) to come closer? Honestly it's like you've never played this game before. |
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
17
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Posted - 2014.03.20 19:00:00 -
[1399] - Quote
The Cruor is an EWAR ship. Why do you insist that it also be the best combat frigate as well? |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 20:37:00 -
[1400] - Quote
MukkBarovian wrote:The Cruor is an EWAR ship. Why do you insist that it also be the best combat frigate as well? You're mistaking a request for them to not make it a terrible dust collector, with the misguided thought that everyone supposedly wants it to be an op pmwnmobile. |
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:34:00 -
[1401] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:In almost all cases, Cruor becomes outmatched by pretty well every T1 frigate with a web if the web change goes through. Sadly even the "OP" Nos isn't saving the Cruor. And before you try to claim that this Cruor would cap out said comet before it loses, just no. The longest range NOS on the market is 10km (Faction) and the Comet above with heated web is still going to hold you outside that range, and for as long as it needs to kill you (not long.)
Your web range bonus is completely meaningless inside 13km, and outside of that what are you planning to do? Web your targets into warp? Try and coax that mwd ship who is still faster than you (even while webbed) to come closer? Honestly it's like you've never played this game before. These two paragraphes are oposing eachother : in the first one, you are saying that a Comet can hold the Cruor inside 13km, outside of scramrange ; and in the second, you are saying that webing outside of scramrange is useless for a brawling frigate ; I agree on the last one, but that apply to the Comet too and scram usualy don't go past 10km heated (deadspace nos range). The Comet *cannot* hold you outside of nos range without links you can have too, unless it's some deadspace scram he will have only to counter a Cruor.
Secondly, I talked about the Comet to show that a 3 mid slot frigate can be very effective in the current meta despite the effectiveness of 4+ mid slot frigates (hence with speed advantage). What that mean is that, logicaly, speed spremacy is not the supreme characteristic determining frigate warfare, some others characteristics can compensate for lack of speed supremacy.
The old nos was so powerful it have been nerfed, as have the old 90% web which still is on the radar and have been left only on pirate ships for now. You can't give a so powerful bonus to a ship as the old nos and balance it while ignoring the bonus just because you can't see it working for scram-kiting. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:55:00 -
[1402] - Quote
Sorry for clarity purposes, I did not say the comet was fitting a scram just used that range as an example for damage output which is where a lot of fights currently take place. To make it easier for you, and more specific, using a disruptor at 12.5 km inside heated web range the comet still out damages the cruor with about 195 DPS.
The comet is not a great exampel for what you are trying to explain here because many of those dual web setups are relying on scram kiting, which is literally the same range that comet is reliably applying DPS at anyway, so they get exactly zero benefit from having the dual webs. On the contrary if the cruor were to keep its web effectiveness it could actually hold the comet so it can apply neut/nos and do something meaningful (other than die.)
I agree the web bonus is powerful, I'm not arguing that, but give me one situation where the Cruor is going to do anything meaningful to a ship outside the normal oh web range, other than web and warp disrupt, and I'll consider situations outside of it's standard engagement profile which is scram kiting or rather kiting inside 13ish km's.
Edit: I'll add one more thing here - if Rise were insistant on keeping the web-range bonus, one, if not two things would need to happen - either scrap the NOS idea entirely, and give the neuts/nos a range bonus and/or remove the energy turret damage bonus, and give it an optimal bonus - the only other situations where the web range bonus has any use is in fleets, and frankly that should be left to a hyena/rapier. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 00:57:00 -
[1403] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Sorry for clarity purposes, I did not say the comet was fitting a scram just used that range as an example for damage output which is where a lot of fights currently take place. To make it easier for you, and more specific, using a disruptor at 12.5 km inside heated web range the comet still out damages the cruor with about 195 DPS.
The comet is not a great exampel for what you are trying to explain here because many of those dual web setups are relying on scram kiting, which is literally the same range that comet is reliably applying DPS at anyway, so they get exactly zero benefit from having the dual webs. On the contrary if the cruor were to keep its web effectiveness it could actually hold the comet so it can apply neut/nos and do something meaningful (other than die.) I don't understand what kind of Comet you are talking about. A scramkiting Comet use a scram, not a disruptor. If it use a disruptor, it will be a kiting Comet, or a counter to the Cruor. Using a counter as an argument is stupid, so I'll consider it's a kiting Comet, with a MWD and not an AB, and then, a scram-kiting Cruor will have speed supremacy and go what he want with the Comet if it catch it (or die otherwise, eventhough a long range web give him a lot more chances to catch the Comet than any other scramkiter would have).
If the Comet is AB (scramkite) fit, then the range will never be more than deadspace nos range. I really don't understand how you can argue on that.
But maybe now scramkiters fit a long point and I missed that ? I'm very sceptical about that, because that would discard any single chance against kiters and brawlers, but if it is actually the case, what will follow is outdated then and you have my apologies, otherwise, here is how I understand things :
Let's put all this more comprehensively : there are three types of fits : scramkite (AB/scram/web), kite (MWD/disru) and brawl (MWD/scram/web). Basicaly, scramkite > brawl > kite > scramkite. There are a few exception of course, like the brawling Hawk, but there's not many such cases.
So, with this in mind, the best place for the Cruor is kiting, because a web range bonus and a nos bonus make it very strong against all kiters and brawlers -- scramkiter are not to consider, because scramkiter vs kiter matchup is fully played at tackle, the scramkiter is either able to tackle the kiter and will kill him, or not and he will die. In this setup, the Cruor becomes a dueling Hyena on steroids, because the long range web allow him to keep anything at range, and the nos give him a chance when he screw-up something or if he want to brawl a kiter. Scramkiting fit, the web range bonus is indeed wasted, and the Cruor becomes a neuting scramkiter but indeed doesn't shine as much as a Daredevil or even a Comet ; yet he will still kill any T1 frigate he encounter. For navy, pirate and assault frigate, the matchup will largely depend. A Comet is indeed a tough oponent because of the sheer amount of projected dps allowing her to win the capacitor race. Most other frigates won't deal a lot more dps than the Cruor, and won't tank a lot more either. That's indeed not the best place for the Cruor to be, but as I explained it, the best place is kiting, because there he have no counter. That even sounds OP to me in fact.
PS : I read again the first post, and Rise clearly state that the Cruor is not used a lot at the moment despite the web strength bonus, hence I think the change of role can't be a bad thing for him (or rather that can only be a good thing). PPS : IMO, the idea behind the Cruor is to keep the capacitor warfare theme because the Bhaalgorn works fine with it, but change something for the Cruor and Ashimu to work, because they don't seem to do currently. According to some people here, the Ashimu will work with a web range bonus, and I think no frigate can't work with a web range bonus (because that makes it a kiting king), and that will not harm the Bhaalgorn. |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:05:00 -
[1404] - Quote
Scram range is a poor choice of bonus for the cruor, anyone can see that is the case. Blood raiders should stick with a web strength bonus and nuet/nos bonus. Just increase the base stats and layout of the ship.
The reason the ship is not being used has nothing to do with the bonuses at all. This nuet bonus will go a long way to massively helping the ship out, then just alter the base stats to make the ship a bit faster. Nothing more is needed. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 08:25:00 -
[1405] - Quote
@ Bouh
You're missing the point here, and gone off on a tangent that's ridiculous, so first of all, I'm fairly certain there's no magical fitting-jujitsu that prevents you from having a warp disruptor when you have an ab. Secondly I never said the comet was a close range brawling fit that needed to be in scram range/use a scram. Now can we get back on topic
The only way the Cruor works as a kiter is if it can actually apply damage at the ranges you seem to be suggesting, which the cruor can not do reliably. I'm sorry that you aren't getting this but it's just a simple fact. And no, two drones aren't going to cut it as its only DPS. As to Rise's statement that the Cruor is not used a lot at the moment. That shouldn't be a surprise, the ship is not in a good place, irregardless of the web bonus. However I guarantee you if the present Cruor didn't have its current bonus to web effectiveness, it would see zero use, except by clueless noobs who think it looks cool.
Take no offense when I say this but from the sounds of your posts I'd say that you only have partial information, at best, on PVP fits/tactics/etc, and it certainly doesn't sound like you've got a whole lot of experience to back your statements. I also think you are severly over-estimating the power of the nos on this ship. It's not a neut, and doesn't drain as much as a neut, it just happens to drain "like" a neut, while giving you some cap back in the process. It's a great bonus don't get me wrong but it doesn't offset the loss of utility this ship currently has. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
550
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 11:47:00 -
[1406] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:@ Bouh
You're missing the point here, and gone off on a tangent that's ridiculous, so first of all, I'm fairly certain there's no magical fitting-jujitsu that prevents you from having a warp disruptor when you have an ab. Secondly I never said the comet was a close range brawling fit that needed to be in scram range/use a scram. Now can we get back on topic
The only way the Cruor works as a kiter is if it can actually apply damage at the ranges you seem to be suggesting, which the cruor can not do reliably. I'm sorry that you aren't getting this but it's just a simple fact. And no, two drones aren't going to cut it as its only DPS. As to Rise's statement that the Cruor is not used a lot at the moment. That shouldn't be a surprise, the ship is not in a good place, irregardless of the web bonus. However I guarantee you if the present Cruor didn't have its current bonus to web effectiveness, it would see zero use, except by clueless noobs who think it looks cool.
Take no offense when I say this but from the sounds of your posts I'd say that you only have partial information, at best, on PVP fits/tactics/etc, and it certainly doesn't sound like you've got a whole lot of experience to back your statements. I also think you are severly over-estimating the power of the nos on this ship. It's not a neut, and doesn't drain as much as a neut, it just happens to drain "like" a neut, while giving you some cap back in the process. It's a great bonus don't get me wrong but it doesn't offset the loss of utility this ship currently has. Ok, I'll make it short : 1) hypothetical and unused fit don't make good arguments, they just make you ridiculous ; ---- A scramkiting ship *can* fit a long point instead of a scram, but that would be stupid, because then it would have absolutely no single chance against anything with a MWD. 2) a kiting frigate can use LR turret to kite ; ---- See kiting Atron in any killboard you like for example. It's not as OP as missiles can be, and LR turrets don't track as well as pulse, but it works, killboards prove it. 3) I won't go personal, but what I explained is how the metagame of frigate dueling works. You just can't talk about frigate balancing without knowing it, because if you don't know it, that mean you don't have a comprehensive view of how frigate warfare works.
The problem is that everyone want the Cruor to be a scramkiting king so it can apply easily its nos and eat any frigate for breakfast, but as I already said, and as Rise said, the web strengh bonus is redundant with the Daredevil, and the only thing we know is that the bonus works better with the Daredevil than with the Cruor. Changing a working ship (the Daredevil) to something else just in the hope the Cruor wil then work is an unreasonable idea based on fealings instead of reason.
Finaly, for the nos powerlevel, I indeed don't know it, but the facts are that it have been nerfed in the past for a good reason. Either you are like me and you weren't there at this time and you don't know more than me how powerful it is, or you were there and you'll hopefully explain to everyone what changed in the game which make it less OP than before. :-) |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
300
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:22:00 -
[1407] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:[quote=Dun'Gal]
and as Rise said, the web strengh bonus is redundant with the Daredevil, and the only thing we know is that the bonus works better with the Daredevil than with the Cruor. Changing a working ship (the Daredevil) to something else just in the hope the Cruor wil then work is an unreasonable idea based on fealings instead of reason.
im almost certian if the cruor got the OP 200% damage bonus like the daredevil it would be regarded just the same. and tbh the serp line already has range bonus's on its weapons it should be the one getting the web range bonus. frankly the serp line is redundant with the blood raider line. |
Etuura Zellis
Scarlet Corsairs
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 19:52:00 -
[1408] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Dun'Gal wrote:@ Bouh
You're missing the point here, and gone off on a tangent that's ridiculous, so first of all, I'm fairly certain there's no magical fitting-jujitsu that prevents you from having a warp disruptor when you have an ab. Secondly I never said the comet was a close range brawling fit that needed to be in scram range/use a scram. Now can we get back on topic
The only way the Cruor works as a kiter is if it can actually apply damage at the ranges you seem to be suggesting, which the cruor can not do reliably. I'm sorry that you aren't getting this but it's just a simple fact. And no, two drones aren't going to cut it as its only DPS. As to Rise's statement that the Cruor is not used a lot at the moment. That shouldn't be a surprise, the ship is not in a good place, irregardless of the web bonus. However I guarantee you if the present Cruor didn't have its current bonus to web effectiveness, it would see zero use, except by clueless noobs who think it looks cool.
Take no offense when I say this but from the sounds of your posts I'd say that you only have partial information, at best, on PVP fits/tactics/etc, and it certainly doesn't sound like you've got a whole lot of experience to back your statements. I also think you are severly over-estimating the power of the nos on this ship. It's not a neut, and doesn't drain as much as a neut, it just happens to drain "like" a neut, while giving you some cap back in the process. It's a great bonus don't get me wrong but it doesn't offset the loss of utility this ship currently has. Ok, I'll make it short : 1) hypothetical and unused fit don't make good arguments, they just make you ridiculous ; ---- A scramkiting ship *can* fit a long point instead of a scram, but that would be stupid, because then it would have absolutely no single chance against anything with a MWD. 2) a kiting frigate can use LR turret to kite ; ---- See kiting Atron in any killboard you like for example. It's not as OP as missiles can be, and LR turrets don't track as well as pulse, but it works, killboards prove it. 3) I won't go personal, but what I explained is how the metagame of frigate dueling works. You just can't talk about frigate balancing without knowing it, because if you don't know it, that mean you don't have a comprehensive view of how frigate warfare works. The problem is that everyone want the Cruor to be a scramkiting king so it can apply easily its nos and eat any frigate for breakfast, but as I already said, and as Rise said, the web strengh bonus is redundant with the Daredevil, and the only thing we know is that the bonus works better with the Daredevil than with the Cruor. Changing a working ship (the Daredevil) to something else just in the hope the Cruor wil then work is an unreasonable idea based on fealings instead of reason. Finaly, for the nos powerlevel, I indeed don't know it, but the facts are that it have been nerfed in the past for a good reason. Either you are like me and you weren't there at this time and you don't know more than me how powerful it is, or you were there and you'll hopefully explain to everyone what changed in the game which make it less OP than before. :-)
Look guy, I think you're heart is in the right place but after reading the back and forth here, I can see you're a bit lost. Every argument you've tried to make in favor of the Cruor changes has been shot down in a ball of fire. If the only reasonable explanation for this change is flavor, then god help us all because balance has clearly gone out the window. Also the argument you two seem to be having is odd but you Bouh, definitely don't know what you are talking about.
I would say one of the more common Comet fits I see, which is also one of the more successful fits, is an Afterburner + Warp Disruptor, Rail Comet (I suspect this is the Comet being discussed.) It handles virtually all situations just fine, including ships with microwarpdrives. As to the assertion that long range weapons work (I just listed one example) I will agree, to an extent - I'm afraid that a beam frigate is well, not good. Fly a beam slicer and see how that goes (I'll give you a hint: horribly.) Not only is the damage easily tankable by virtually everything but the tracking is even worse, and for lasers that says a lot.
I've flown Cruor's a lot over the years and in it's current state it's the sort of ship you have to be very picky about your fights with. The fights you can take you can generally only take because you have a strong web, having more range on that web would merely make it a worse slicer, with webs. Especially when the other bonus does nothing to help it at that range. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 20:20:00 -
[1409] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: The problem is that everyone want the Cruor to be a scramkiting king so it can apply easily its nos and eat any frigate for breakfast, but as I already said, and as Rise said, the web strengh bonus is redundant with the Daredevil, and the only thing we know is that the bonus works better with the Daredevil than with the Cruor. Changing a working ship (the Daredevil) to something else just in the hope the Cruor wil then work is an unreasonable idea based on fealings instead of reason.
Finaly, for the nos powerlevel, I indeed don't know it, but the facts are that it have been nerfed in the past for a good reason. Either you are like me and you weren't there at this time and you don't know more than me how powerful it is, or you were there and you'll hopefully explain to everyone what changed in the game which make it less OP than before. :-)
I'm not going to continue arguing with you about scramkiting, because you are the only one here who keeps bringing it up. So the point is moot. Redundant bonuses? How about the fact that the Hyena and Rapier have a 40% bonus to web range, sounds pretty redundant to me. It's not a good argument and everyone here knows it. If you'd ever flown a Cruor you would also realize that the current bonus doesn't work better on either ship, because the bonus is identical. The problem with the Cruor is that it is slower than a Daredevil, and does less damage than the Daredevil. Both of these things would be fine if there was some compensation in tank, but sadly the Cruor doesn't fit a very meaningful tank either. We aren't asking for the Daredevil to get changed so just stop suggesting that is the case, we're asking for the Cruor to get changes that are needed, and not ones that are unnecessary so it can be resigned to an even more niche role than it currently is. (BTW when's the last time you saw a Hyena on the field, in something other than lol fleets)
And the NOS, did you read the changes to the NOS? Is it really that difficult to understand? The only difference between current NOS and what they want with this is that it continues to drain irregardless of your cap in comparison to your enemies cap, ie. like a neut. The amount it drains is still the same, which even on a Cruor with bonuses is very little. In fact it's about 1/4 of what an unbonused neut drains. It just means you are going to continue to gain cap from your target until they are completely dry even if you are sitting at full capacitor. |
Dyniss
Burning Skies Apocalypse Now.
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 21:03:00 -
[1410] - Quote
I really dislike how they are trying to tote every ship as a viable pvp platform. The Rattlesnake was (and still is) one of the best pve battleships around. And honestly who is going to roam around in a 700million isk battleship (fittings and such included in price factoring)? Your drones being high damage is of moot point since YOU will be the first target and the first one to die. So why not try to I don't know give us a ship that excels in both areas without sacrificing one for the other? A heavy drone Rattler (or Gila) for pve? Don't make me laugh. It was such a versatile ship with its utility high slots, good range with torpedoes (thanks to its velocity bonus), large drone bay for different types of drones (sentries, lights, logistical and heavies or ewar if need be). But oh no... We need another ship to shoot at and blow up so lets make something good like the Gurista pirate ships into another bland pvp style ship. Way to go. |
|
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 21:46:00 -
[1411] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:I really dislike how they are trying to tote every ship as a viable pvp platform. The Rattlesnake was (and still is) one of the best pve battleships around. And honestly who is going to roam around in a 700million isk battleship (fittings and such included in price factoring)
Sorry to inform u that rattlesnake is one of the worst pve battleships since it's overtanked and deal less damage than other pirate ships.
On the other side of the coin u can bait fight with it since it cost 400 mil and not 700 like u r saying. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 22:00:00 -
[1412] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:I really dislike how they are trying to tote every ship as a viable pvp platform. The Rattlesnake was (and still is) one of the best pve battleships around. And honestly who is going to roam around in a 700million isk battleship (fittings and such included in price factoring)? Your drones being high damage is of moot point since YOU will be the first target and the first one to die. So why not try to I don't know give us a ship that excels in both areas without sacrificing one for the other? A heavy drone Rattler (or Gila) for pve? Don't make me laugh. It was such a versatile ship with its utility high slots, good range with torpedoes (thanks to its velocity bonus), large drone bay for different types of drones (sentries, lights, logistical and heavies or ewar if need be). But oh no... We need another ship to shoot at and blow up so lets make something good like the Gurista pirate ships into another bland pvp style ship. Way to go.
Woah woah woah, man. Maybe you haven't heard, but torps aren't especially useful beyond web range, and I'd much prefer a damage bonus to a range one. Also, balancing something around PVE is a bad idea, we don't know that the changes extend to the rattlesnake, and I disagree with the assessment of such a ship as "a bland pvp style ship". It gets bonuses to shields, drones, and missiles. How is that even close to bland?! Only the other ships in the guristas line get those bonuses together. Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors Get Off My Lawn
114
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 22:40:00 -
[1413] - Quote
Cruor development plan summed up in images;
Initial Pass Working web and nuet ranges Current Incarnation
It's like their trying to troll us by making it continually worse. Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now. Fly together, die together. |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 23:50:00 -
[1414] - Quote
Still no change made to the pretty useless web range bonus on the cruor then..... Dissapointing
Just bring back the 90% webs and give all the blood raider ships a bit more speed, this is amarr mixed with minmatar after all. Speed, low sig, with enough low slots to fit a decent tank, and they will be perfect.
The bhaalgorn can live with 90% webs instead of the range, Ashimmu will be just fine, the Cruor will be great.
Put it the other way around though, and the only ship that web range really works well for is the Bhaalgorn which is the ship which need the least help. |
Dyniss
Burning Skies Apocalypse Now.
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 00:49:00 -
[1415] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:Dyniss wrote:I really dislike how they are trying to tote every ship as a viable pvp platform. The Rattlesnake was (and still is) one of the best pve battleships around. And honestly who is going to roam around in a 700million isk battleship (fittings and such included in price factoring)? Your drones being high damage is of moot point since YOU will be the first target and the first one to die. So why not try to I don't know give us a ship that excels in both areas without sacrificing one for the other? A heavy drone Rattler (or Gila) for pve? Don't make me laugh. It was such a versatile ship with its utility high slots, good range with torpedoes (thanks to its velocity bonus), large drone bay for different types of drones (sentries, lights, logistical and heavies or ewar if need be). But oh no... We need another ship to shoot at and blow up so lets make something good like the Gurista pirate ships into another bland pvp style ship. Way to go. Woah woah woah, man. Maybe you haven't heard, but torps aren't especially useful beyond web range, and I'd much prefer a damage bonus to a range one. Also, balancing something around PVE is a bad idea, we don't know that the changes extend to the rattlesnake, and I disagree with the assessment of such a ship as "a bland pvp style ship". It gets bonuses to shields, drones, and missiles. How is that even close to bland?! Only the other ships in the guristas line get those bonuses together.
Torps no good past web range? Seriously? With good skills and a couple rigs you can hit anything cruiser and larger out to almost 50km with them! Also it's not bland now. It's very useful. I'd rather have range over damage. Doesn't mean anything if your missiles are strong if the never hit their intended target. It doesn't need to be balanced around PVE. Have a decent balance for the platform over all aspects of its uses. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 06:18:00 -
[1416] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:Woah woah woah, man. Maybe you haven't heard, but torps aren't especially useful beyond web range, and I'd much prefer a damage bonus to a range one. Also, balancing something around PVE is a bad idea, we don't know that the changes extend to the rattlesnake, and I disagree with the assessment of such a ship as "a bland pvp style ship". It gets bonuses to shields, drones, and missiles. How is that even close to bland?! Only the other ships in the guristas line get those bonuses together. Hey don't worry just add a cruor to your fleet and it can mwd around and web stuff for your torps to hit o.O Still trying to figure a good use for that uninspired bonus..... |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 08:46:00 -
[1417] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:
Torps no good past web range? Seriously? With good skills and a couple rigs you can hit anything cruiser and larger out to almost 50km with them! Also it's not bland now. It's very useful. I'd rather have range over damage. Doesn't mean anything if your missiles are strong if the never hit their intended target. It doesn't need to be balanced around PVE. Have a decent balance for the platform over all aspects of its uses.
Yes, cause everyone with a brain want to fit missile range rigs on a pirate bs with 4 unbonused (speaking of damage) launchers.
It's like fitting burst aerator on old ishtar to maximize medium hybrid damage or put magnetic field on arazu to " squeeze that gun damage " |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 23:52:00 -
[1418] - Quote
I still think that the cruor can't stay as a brawler even with the 90% web its tank is just too bad the web range bonus on top of a neut range one (maybe with 3-4-3 layout) is IMHO the way to go same for the ashimmu kinda like this
PS: are you guys really ok with the massive power grid nerf its going to get? Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
300
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 05:44:00 -
[1419] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:I still think that the cruor can't stay as a brawler even with the 90% web its tank is just too bad the web range bonus on top of a neut range one (maybe with 3-4-3 layout) is IMHO the way to go same for the ashimmu kinda like thisPS: are you guys really ok with the massive power grid nerf its going to get? the cruors current role as a brawler with 90% web is just fine. it pushs a nice 12kehp tank before slaves or links. plenty to land inquisitor or navitas reps. Ashimmu is beautiful currently with the 90% web and one of the strongest t1/faction cruiser tanks in the game at the moment.
the power grid nerf on the cruor will completely destroy it's tank. it will have to fit 1 ACR. like ALLLLL amarr ships worth a damn. this is supposed to be a minmatar/amarr combined ship so cant this ship you know... have epic fitting like all minmatar ships fit the biggest guns and full t2 tank no big deal? can we? for the first ever laser ship?
or you know since amarr ships base speeds are one of the fastest in the game, and the minmatar are general fastest in the game after fitting tank. shouldnt this minmatar/amarr hybrid be wicked ******* fast? |
Etuura Zellis
Scarlet Corsairs
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 06:03:00 -
[1420] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:I still think that the cruor can't stay as a brawler even with the 90% web its tank is just too bad the web range bonus on top of a neut range one (maybe with 3-4-3 layout) is IMHO the way to go same for the ashimmu kinda like thisPS: are you guys really ok with the massive power grid nerf its going to get? the cruors current role as a brawler with 90% web is just fine. it pushs a nice 12kehp tank before slaves or links. plenty to land inquisitor or navitas reps. Ashimmu is beautiful currently with the 90% web and one of the strongest t1/faction cruiser tanks in the game at the moment. the power grid nerf on the cruor will completely destroy it's tank. it will have to fit 1 ACR. like ALLLLL amarr ships worth a damn. this is supposed to be a minmatar/amarr combined ship so cant this ship you know... have epic fitting like all minmatar ships fit the biggest guns and full t2 tank no big deal? can we? for the first ever laser ship? or you know since amarr ships base speeds are one of the fastest in the game, and the minmatar are general fastest in the game after fitting tank. shouldnt this minmatar/amarr hybrid be wicked ******* fast? I am curious about your 12k ehp tank on a cruor, that seems extraordinarily high - as for the pg nerf, no, I'm not ok with that either. But one thing at a time here. Honestly I'd just like to see something from Rise either shooting us all down or saying "these are valid points, perhaps I need to rethink this." Preferably the latter of course. |
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Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
383
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 06:42:00 -
[1421] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:I still think that the cruor can't stay as a brawler even with the 90% web its tank is just too bad the web range bonus on top of a neut range one (maybe with 3-4-3 layout) is IMHO the way to go same for the ashimmu kinda like thisPS: are you guys really ok with the massive power grid nerf its going to get? the cruors current role as a brawler with 90% web is just fine. it pushs a nice 12kehp tank before slaves or links. plenty to land inquisitor or navitas reps. Ashimmu is beautiful currently with the 90% web and one of the strongest t1/faction cruiser tanks in the game at the moment.
Alright, because people keep mentioning it, **** the 90% web bonus, I hope it burns in hell. It`s ******** as **** and is ridiculously OP in solo/small gang, and is ridiculously stupid in tandem with blap dreads.
Sure, it doesn't scale all to spectacularly, but **** that bullshit with letting ******* dreads blap interceptors (this was mentioned because because it is a fringe case of the lowest tracking still hitting the smallest and fastest ships) for near full damage application because they're so ******* OP.
People have no issue with an abiliity to reduce people to under 1% of their maximum speed? Seriously? This isn't problematic? Speed, the lifeblood of almost every ship in game? Well sure, I wouldn't care... if it wasn't possible to do out to over 20km range. 10%, the approximate maximum possible with normal 60% webs, and with a minimum of 5 of them? Sure, but either ******* cap 90% webs and effective at only 1 (an arbitrary and rather stupid effect, limitations in our sandbox are stupid), or nerf that **** to be less ********. I don't care if the webs are stronger, but 90% is stupid. 5% per level, or even 7.5% per level is much more agreeable. So with great sincerity; kindly go **** yourselves everybody who wants their pwnmobiles with 90% webs.
TL;DR, 75% webs or 82.5% webs, not 90% webs. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 07:50:00 -
[1422] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote: the cruors current role as a brawler with 90% web is just fine. it pushs a nice 12kehp tank before slaves or links. plenty to land inquisitor or navitas reps. Ashimmu is beautiful currently with the 90% web and one of the strongest t1/faction cruiser tanks in the game at the moment.
the power grid nerf on the cruor will completely destroy it's tank. it will have to fit 1 ACR. like ALLLLL amarr ships worth a damn. this is supposed to be a minmatar/amarr combined ship so cant this ship you know... have epic fitting like all minmatar ships fit the biggest guns and full t2 tank no big deal? can we? for the first ever laser ship?
or you know since amarr ships base speeds are one of the fastest in the game, and the minmatar are general fastest in the game after fitting tank. shouldnt this minmatar/amarr hybrid be wicked ******* fast?
yes that's about the only way either of them can work, with logi, but hold on who in his right mind would bring either of them to a fleet? ah right people using dreads that need a cheap 90% web ship anyone sensible would bring a sentinel or curse of course.
also 12k ehp http://pastebin.com/eVWSen2k
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
96
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 11:08:00 -
[1423] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote: Alright, because people keep mentioning it, **** the 90% web bonus, I hope it burns in hell. It`s ******** as **** and is ridiculously OP in solo/small gang, and is ridiculously stupid in tandem with blap dreads.
Sure, it doesn't scale all to spectacularly, but **** that bullshit with letting ******* dreads blap interceptors (this was mentioned because because it is a fringe case of the lowest tracking still hitting the smallest and fastest ships) for near full damage application because they're so ******* OP.
People have no issue with an abiliity to reduce people to under 1% of their maximum speed? Seriously? This isn't problematic? Speed, the lifeblood of almost every ship in game? Well sure, I wouldn't care... if it wasn't possible to do out to over 20km range. 10%, the approximate maximum possible with normal 60% webs, and with a minimum of 5 of them? Sure, but either ******* cap 90% webs and effective at only 1 (an arbitrary and rather stupid effect, limitations in our sandbox are stupid), or nerf that **** to be less ********. I don't care if the webs are stronger, but 90% is stupid. 5% per level, or even 7.5% per level is much more agreeable. So with great sincerity; kindly go **** yourselves everybody who wants their pwnmobiles with 90% webs.
TL;DR, 75% webs or 82.5% webs, not 90% webs.
Heh, post more, you're funny |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
552
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 14:10:00 -
[1424] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Heh, post more, you're funny You are starting to troll again...
|
Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
383
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:14:00 -
[1425] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Heh, post more, you're funny Alright, I'll admit. I am kinda mad. I also had some drinks last night, so that can't have helped.
But have you ever flown a Rail DD? I have. I have never lost a 1v1 in a Rail DD. And I almost always take a 1v1. There's very few things that will ever make me shy away from a 1v1 in a DD. I can literally slowboat faster than most ships MWDing when I have a web on them. In the case of them having a web, I can slowboat faster than most ships if they are AB fit. The only thing that can typically outrun me when I have a web down is an MWD+Web+Scram ship, but most ships can't apply webs and scrams at 18km.
Have I lost Rail DD's? Yes. I have. Always to more than one opponent. As I said, the scalability of the web bonus isn't great, but it's ridiculously overpowered in 1v1 situations.
In my experience, the 90% web bonus is overpowered, easily allowing people to completely dominate range and win almost any fight against similar numbers.
Also worth noting, I'm not completely against the Serp ships having a web strength bonus. I just want a number tweak to bring it into a more reasonable range. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
108
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:40:00 -
[1426] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:WHAT? now your really high. brawling in scram range is ALLLLLL the ashimmu does right now. it is to SLOW to do ANYTHING else. i cant beleive you are arguing for the amazing 160 dps the ashimmu can put out. when most other cruisers these days are pushing 400, nay 600 dps these days. the ashimmu does not do damage. the ashimmu does not kite. the ashimmu gets a target. latches on a like a tick ONLY because it has 90% webs. and nuets the crap out of it. IN NO OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE IS THE ASHIMMU EVER USED. with the exception of baiting a fight so people can kill a 140mil mini legion.
what ccp and you are suggest is the that the ashimmu will be cursed just like the cruor in having to sacrifice 2 mids for webing power to hold down ONE target. and many people are going to argue that "you dont need your cap injector anymore you have a nos bro!" really? what is the 12gj's of cap stealing gonna do for your cap heavy ship? NOTHING.
Why do you keep referring to the Ashimmu's current speed and its current role when we're talking about the future Ashimmu which will almost certainly receive a speed buff? I'm also sorry you're not able to see the value of webbing up to and over faction medium neut range on a cruiser. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
96
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:46:00 -
[1427] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Dun'Gal wrote:Heh, post more, you're funny Alright, I'll admit. I am kinda mad. I also had some drinks last night, so that can't have helped. But have you ever flown a Rail DD? I have. I have never lost a 1v1 in a Rail DD. And I almost always take a 1v1. There's very few things that will ever make me shy away from a 1v1 in a DD. I can literally slowboat faster than most ships MWDing when I have a web on them. In the case of them having a web, I can slowboat faster than most ships if they are AB fit. The only thing that can typically outrun me when I have a web down is an MWD+Web+Scram ship, but most ships can't apply webs and scrams at 18km. Have I lost Rail DD's? Yes. I have. Always to more than one opponent. As I said, the scalability of the web bonus isn't great, but it's ridiculously overpowered in 1v1 situations. In my experience, the 90% web bonus is overpowered, easily allowing people to completely dominate range and win almost any fight against similar numbers. Also worth noting, I'm not completely against the Serp ships having a web strength bonus. I just want a number tweak to bring it into a more reasonable range. Yup and that's a fair thing to say however there's a vital difference beteen the Daredevil and the Cruor that can't be overlooked - the fact that one is always picked over the other simply because it is so much better. I see very little danger in leaving the 90% web on the Cruor especially since the only notable "buff" the ship seems to be getting is the added DPS of a pair of drones, and I guess the "cool" factor of the Nos change.
Putting this slightly differently (and entirely hypothetically) if giving the Rifter a falloff bonus suddenly made it the strongest frigate around, you wouldn't strip the Wolf of this bonus and give it, for example, an optimal bonus, while leaving the Rifter as is. This is however, precisely what's happening with the Cruor/Daredevil situation. Stripping the Cruor of it's strongest bonus isn't going to improve it or make it more popular, especially with the rest of the laughable changes to it (sorry Rise.)
These two ships should quite probably have there web bonuses swapped, ie daredevil gets a range bonus and the cruor maintains its 90% I have a feeling the Daredevil will continue to be just as strong. As for the Cruor, it probably won't be any more popular, but it'll be less bad.
Edit: I forgot to answer your question, but yes I've flown a Rail DD and everything you say about is true, which further compounds everything I've just said, and continues to make me scratch my head at the lack of change to the Daredevil. |
LakeEnd
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:01:00 -
[1428] - Quote
Rise, give us rebalance pirate cruisers, please! |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:42:00 -
[1429] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote: the cruors current role as a brawler with 90% web is just fine. it pushs a nice 12kehp tank before slaves or links. plenty to land inquisitor or navitas reps. Ashimmu is beautiful currently with the 90% web and one of the strongest t1/faction cruiser tanks in the game at the moment.
the power grid nerf on the cruor will completely destroy it's tank. it will have to fit 1 ACR. like ALLLLL amarr ships worth a damn. this is supposed to be a minmatar/amarr combined ship so cant this ship you know... have epic fitting like all minmatar ships fit the biggest guns and full t2 tank no big deal? can we? for the first ever laser ship?
or you know since amarr ships base speeds are one of the fastest in the game, and the minmatar are general fastest in the game after fitting tank. shouldnt this minmatar/amarr hybrid be wicked ******* fast?
yes that's about the only way either of them can work, with logi, but hold on who in his right mind would bring either of them to a fleet? ah right people using dreads that need a cheap 90% web ship anyone sensible would bring a sentinel or curse of course. also 12k ehp http://pastebin.com/eVWSen2k um people who plan on breaking enemy logi bring them to fleets if they have any idea what they are doing. plenty of people bring them to fleets who dont use dreads and they use them for breaking enemy logi. anybody who is in a fleet that needs neuts is going to pic from 90kehp or 40kehp? thats right the ashimmu crushes the curse with the same nueting power , actually it can fit more medium neuts than the curse and still have 2 times the ehp and 90% win win. in any fleet ehp is paramount for survival.
Sent doesnt fit in novice plexs. the whole unique part of the cruor is the 90% so people who ******* WANT the 90% will pick the cruor to literately hold targets down and guess what? the cruor wont die INSTANTLY when 5 hob's look at if funny. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:44:00 -
[1430] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:WHAT? now your really high. brawling in scram range is ALLLLLL the ashimmu does right now. it is to SLOW to do ANYTHING else. i cant beleive you are arguing for the amazing 160 dps the ashimmu can put out. when most other cruisers these days are pushing 400, nay 600 dps these days. the ashimmu does not do damage. the ashimmu does not kite. the ashimmu gets a target. latches on a like a tick ONLY because it has 90% webs. and nuets the crap out of it. IN NO OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE IS THE ASHIMMU EVER USED. with the exception of baiting a fight so people can kill a 140mil mini legion.
what ccp and you are suggest is the that the ashimmu will be cursed just like the cruor in having to sacrifice 2 mids for webing power to hold down ONE target. and many people are going to argue that "you dont need your cap injector anymore you have a nos bro!" really? what is the 12gj's of cap stealing gonna do for your cap heavy ship? NOTHING.
Why do you keep referring to the Ashimmu's current speed and its current role when we're talking about the future Ashimmu which will almost certainly receive a speed buff? I'm also sorry you're not able to see the value of webbing up to and over faction medium neut range on a cruiser. and im sorry your not able to see that no 90% web destroys these current ships utility severely |
|
Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc The East India Co.
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:34:00 -
[1431] - Quote
Quote:Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Why cant you do same thing with tristan, give 20 bindwidth and +5% damage bonus, less cargohold, 30m3 for example, But give it one more medium slot?? |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
674
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 20:32:00 -
[1432] - Quote
Lidia Caderu wrote:Quote:Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity) Why cant you do same thing with tristan, give 20 bindwidth and +5% damage bonus, less cargohold, 30m3 for example, But give it one more medium slot??
cos its dull and homogenizes things ... also droneboats usually have -1 slot like the tristan has 9 ... the worm atm has 10 it shouldn't hopefully rise will see this error.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1171
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:08:00 -
[1433] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:
cos its dull and homogenizes things ... also droneboats usually have -1 slot like the tristan has 9 ... the worm atm has 10 it shouldn't hopefully rise will see this error..
Pirate ships traditionally don't have the different slot layout on the drone boats. Despite the extra slot the Gurista's line isn't known as a good line anyway. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
480
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:52:00 -
[1434] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Lidia Caderu wrote:Quote:Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity) Why cant you do same thing with tristan, give 20 bindwidth and +5% damage bonus, less cargohold, 30m3 for example, But give it one more medium slot?? cos its dull and homogenizes things ... also droneboats usually have -1 slot like the tristan has 9 ... the worm atm has 10 it shouldn't hopefully rise will see this error..
Are you serious? You think that a pirate faction ship should have the same arbitrary gimping that is used on T1/T2 ships, "because the rest have it"?
I will only vouch for one alteration of the Worm's slot layout, and that is making it 2/5/3. Ie. moving a high slot I don't see much use for into a much needed mid, giving it more options for close range (currently, it looks like it's almost going to be pigeonholed into LMLs and trying to kite, in some ways). That extra tank will work wonders, and fits well with Guristas having vast shield tanking potential. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
116
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:39:00 -
[1435] - Quote
[quote=Aglais]Are you serious? You think that a pirate faction ship should have the same arbitrary gimping that is used on T1/T2 ships, "because the rest have it"? [quote]
The gimping isn't arbitrary. Drones are super versatile and most of the drone boats have been more or less fine for years with one less slot. The ones that have been under powered were so for reasons other than the one missing slot. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1148
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 08:55:00 -
[1436] - Quote
The problem with current Guristas ships isn't their tank, so I don't really see what throwing more of it at them via an extra medslot would achieve. |
Xayo 204
I don't pay tax to NPC
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 15:17:00 -
[1437] - Quote
I don't like the 10% damage nerf for sansha ships that is mostly overlooked in the replies here. Afterburners are cool and all, but 10% less damage will hurt the entire sansha line. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 19:10:00 -
[1438] - Quote
Xayo 204 wrote:I don't like the 10% damage nerf for sansha ships that is mostly overlooked in the replies here. Afterburners are cool and all, but 10% less damage will hurt the entire sansha line. They didn't get a nerf, the +5% per level was stacked into the role bonus, at +150% extra damage, from +100% extra damage Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors Get Off My Lawn
115
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 00:54:00 -
[1439] - Quote
Anyone know why the Cruor is still a piece of s**t or should I just go ahead and :CCP: the idea of it not being a piece of s**t.
Y'now what, thats not entirely fair as to be honest the balance stuff has mostly been good but come on, lets get real here; the Cruor is really **** poor still. Lets not beat around the bush. Is it going to be fixed or is it seriously staying like that? Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now. Fly together, die together. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
96
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 04:22:00 -
[1440] - Quote
ConranAntoni wrote:Anyone know why the Cruor is still a piece of s**t or should I just go ahead and :CCP: the idea of it not being a piece of s**t.
Y'now what, thats not entirely fair as to be honest the balance stuff has mostly been good but come on, lets get real here; the Cruor is really **** poor still. Lets not beat around the bush. Is it going to be fixed or is it seriously staying like that? Well considering Rise's last post was on page 56, all the way back on the 4th FFS, one of two things is likely going on right now; either a) they are ignoring everything after that post and are going to release as is then throw there arms in the air and say "oh we didn't realize you hate this, but sorry it's already released, woops!" or b) they are actually trying to figure out how this isn't a hilariously terrible attempt at rebalancing the ship.
Of course there is the illusive c) which is they are laughing at us all right now and rubbing there hands together at the thought of releasing blood raider skins for AUR so I can skin my tormentor as one and not have it be a useless ship. |
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Battlingbean
Perkone Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 07:11:00 -
[1441] - Quote
I am so excited the pirate ships are getting rebalanced! I re-subbed almost solely just so I can discuss them.
However, I'd like to discuss the Sansha ship's identity specifically. Since they use Cadari and Amarr technology one would expect excellent fleet ships with unsurpassed power cores. Shield and cap regeneration should be a strong component of the factions technological advantage. Yet the stats seem to be purposely subpar in those areas. For example the shield regeneration time for the old Succubus is 910 seconds compared to the other pirate firgates's 625 seconds. The other Sansha ships have subpar shield regeneration as well and their capacitor regeneration is mediocre. I'd just like to know why and if it is acknowledged.
The Afterburner bonus is certainly unique and likely to be strong. But, since when are Caldari or Amarrian ships fast? They are typically slow impenetrable bricks. This is just some random generic bonus that feels Minmatar. I don't like it.
There are one of two directions I'd like to see Sansha ships head. The first is a more conventional fleet ship that relies on powerful lasers and impressive capacitor and shield regeneration to survive combat. The other option is to make the Succubus and Phantasm more ambush and aggressive focused. Allow them covert cloaks so they can surprise unsuspecting foes but stats such that they don't do well if caught out of position. They even have stealthy names. In this option the Nightmare should remain largely unchanged.
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
677
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 12:37:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Battlingbean wrote:I am so excited the pirate ships are getting rebalanced! I re-subbed almost solely just so I can discuss them.
However, I'd like to discuss the Sansha ship's identity specifically. Since they use Cadari and Amarr technology one would expect excellent fleet ships with unsurpassed power cores. Shield and cap regeneration should be a strong component of the factions technological advantage. Yet the stats seem to be purposely subpar in those areas. For example the shield regeneration time for the old Succubus is 910 seconds compared to the other pirate firgates's 625 seconds. The other Sansha ships have subpar shield regeneration as well and their capacitor regeneration is mediocre. I'd just like to know why and if it is acknowledged.
The Afterburner bonus is certainly unique and likely to be strong. But, since when are Caldari or Amarrian ships fast? They are typically slow impenetrable bricks. This is just some random generic bonus that feels Minmatar. I don't like it.
There are one of two directions I'd like to see Sansha ships head. The first is a more conventional fleet ship that relies on powerful lasers and impressive capacitor and shield regeneration to survive combat. The other option is to make the Succubus and Phantasm more ambush and aggressive focused. Allow them covert cloaks so they can surprise unsuspecting foes but stats such that they don't do well if caught out of position. They even have stealthy names. In this option the Nightmare should remain largely unchanged.
i agree with the first paragraph .. i hope rise listens .. the current proposal gives them poor stats in all these areas.. not very sansha.. more cap is needed especially as you will be perma running an AB along with scorch using up lots of cap..
the AB bonus is a bit random ..but sansha are more than just 2 races combined and it does offer a strong uniqueness to them and the tracking bonus is important here perhaps it needs to be a little stronger at 10% ... especially when you consider how strong that web bonus still is on serpentis .. god knows why they think 90% webs is balanced .. 60% basic webs are OP nevermind 90% ... a web strength skill combined with a potential 50% strength web at T2 lv5 skill would be more balanced and at least require some time and effort to achieve rahter than a 1day old noob being as strong as a 3year old pilot. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
117
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 18:47:00 -
[1443] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Battlingbean wrote:I am so excited the pirate ships are getting rebalanced! I re-subbed almost solely just so I can discuss them.
However, I'd like to discuss the Sansha ship's identity specifically. Since they use Cadari and Amarr technology one would expect excellent fleet ships with unsurpassed power cores. Shield and cap regeneration should be a strong component of the factions technological advantage. Yet the stats seem to be purposely subpar in those areas. For example the shield regeneration time for the old Succubus is 910 seconds compared to the other pirate firgates's 625 seconds. The other Sansha ships have subpar shield regeneration as well and their capacitor regeneration is mediocre. I'd just like to know why and if it is acknowledged.
The Afterburner bonus is certainly unique and likely to be strong. But, since when are Caldari or Amarrian ships fast? They are typically slow impenetrable bricks. This is just some random generic bonus that feels Minmatar. I don't like it.
There are one of two directions I'd like to see Sansha ships head. The first is a more conventional fleet ship that relies on powerful lasers and impressive capacitor and shield regeneration to survive combat. The other option is to make the Succubus and Phantasm more ambush and aggressive focused. Allow them covert cloaks so they can surprise unsuspecting foes but stats such that they don't do well if caught out of position. They even have stealthy names. In this option the Nightmare should remain largely unchanged.
i agree with the first paragraph .. i hope rise listens .. the current proposal gives them poor stats in all these areas.. not very sansha.. more cap is needed especially as you will be perma running an AB along with scorch using up lots of cap.. the AB bonus is a bit random ..but sansha are more than just 2 races combined and it does offer a strong uniqueness to them and the tracking bonus is important here perhaps it needs to be a little stronger at 10% ... especially when you consider how strong that web bonus still is on serpentis .. god knows why they think 90% webs is balanced .. 60% basic webs are OP nevermind 90% ... a web strength skill combined with a potential 50% strength web at T2 lv5 skill would be more balanced and at least require some time and effort to achieve rahter than a 1day old noob being as strong as a 3year old pilot.
I agree with potential for cap issues. I hope they do look at potentially buffing the tracking bonus, although we won't really know where the tracking is at until they are on the test server. |
Joker Dronemaster
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 23:30:00 -
[1444] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:.......snip......... On top of that, a big goal in this pass was to unify the themes across the entire faction line. You will see more of that when I can post the threads for cruisers and battleships, but wanting a set of bonuses that translates well to all three classes is valuable and this Cruor set does that well........snip...........
So how long do we have to wait for this to happen to the SOE line?
........... Exploration frig........... Exploration cruiser............ Logistics battleship..........
One of these things is not like the others. Oh and since I know someone is going to bring this up. The probe and virus strength bonuses make the Nestor as much of an exploration battleship as the bonuses to mining drones on the Vexor make it a mining barge. Scrap the Logi crap and give it a jump drive! You know you want to!
On a more serious note. Think we'll have the battleships done before the next AT? |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
118
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 00:55:00 -
[1445] - Quote
Joker Dronemaster wrote:On a more serious note. Think we'll have the battleships done before the next AT?
All the pirate ship changes are coming in the summer expansion. History suggests that it should be released in May or June. The Alliance Tourney is usually between late May to early July. So even if the changes go through after the tourney the ships everyone will be using on SiSi to practice will be the new ones. Hopefully they don't have the ships change mid tourney like just happened in NEO II. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
363
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 01:50:00 -
[1446] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Energy Vampires no longer take into account capacitor status.
|
Joker Dronemaster
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 07:38:00 -
[1447] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:CCP Rise wrote:note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress) Energy Vampires no longer take into account capacitor status.
this is going to be a role bonus |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
798
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 08:19:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:CCP Rise wrote:note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress) Energy Vampires no longer take into account capacitor status. I like this. Might throw something about "working to full effect" in. |
Hagika
Hipsters In Space
210
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 07:10:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Dear CCP, would love a High DPS torp boat. For 1 bill isk, something along the near Vindi dps area. We really lack a solid pirate missile ship that can shell out the damage.
I know its taboo to step on the State raven area but something near vindi damage would be just fine.
|
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 08:31:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Still no update on this........ Feels like an aeon since we last heard any comment. I hope CCP is still listening to feedback. Any comment would be appreciated as to the ETA on getting these on Singularity, and getting the proposals for cruisers and battleships. |
|
Hagika
Hipsters In Space
211
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 18:59:00 -
[1451] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:Still no update on this........ Feels like an aeon since we last heard any comment. I hope CCP is still listening to feedback. Any comment would be appreciated as to the ETA on getting these on Singularity, and getting the proposals for cruisers and battleships.
Usually it goes like this with Rise and Fozzie. They start a thread asking for input and changes and things from experienced players who have more in game experience on these type things than they have. They respond a few times, disappear and then out of nowhere they announces the changes that no one suggested and they arent very good ones. People speak up giving feedback like they asked, then they are told who cares, we are doing it like this and then it goes through as they put it.
That is the jest of how they do things. |
Gremmel
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:07:00 -
[1452] - Quote
Wording ideas for the Cruor
Role Bonus: Energy Vampires no longer have an activation cost.
Role Bonus: Fitted Energy Vampires don't use the ships capacitor to activate
Role Bonus: Energy Vampires don't cost capacitor charge to activate. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:12:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Gremmel wrote:Wording ideas for the Cruor
Role Bonus: Energy Vampires no longer have an activation cost.
Role Bonus: Fitted Energy Vampires don't use the ships capacitor to activate
Role Bonus: Energy Vampires don't cost capacitor charge to activate. No, it keeps draining from the foe even if they have less cap then you. Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
304
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:40:00 -
[1454] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:Still no update on this........ Feels like an aeon since we last heard any comment. I hope CCP is still listening to feedback. Any comment would be appreciated as to the ETA on getting these on Singularity, and getting the proposals for cruisers and battleships. seeing as there is no more debate its probably because people have finally accepted that ccp wont change what is broken about the new line of frigates. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:16:00 -
[1455] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Marcia en Welle wrote:Still no update on this........ Feels like an aeon since we last heard any comment. I hope CCP is still listening to feedback. Any comment would be appreciated as to the ETA on getting these on Singularity, and getting the proposals for cruisers and battleships. seeing as there is no more debate its probably because people have finally accepted that ccp wont change what is broken about the new line of frigates. I would be debating if there was something to debate about still
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
WouldYouEver HaveSexWith aGoat
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 03:16:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Joker Dronemaster wrote:CCP Rise wrote:.......snip......... On top of that, a big goal in this pass was to unify the themes across the entire faction line. You will see more of that when I can post the threads for cruisers and battleships, but wanting a set of bonuses that translates well to all three classes is valuable and this Cruor set does that well........snip........... So how long do we have to wait for this to happen to the SOE line? ........... Exploration frig........... Exploration cruiser............ Logistics battleship.......... One of these things is not like the others. Oh and since I know someone is going to bring this up. The probe and virus strength bonuses make the Nestor as much of an exploration battleship as the bonuses to mining drones on the Vexor make it a mining barge. Scrap the Logi crap and give it a jump drive! You know you want to! On a more serious note. Think we'll have the battleships done before the next AT? The exploration battleship is kind of a weird idea anyways. I mean, who would want to fly such a thing anyways? Perhaps in WH it would get some use, but the other exploration sites do not have any NPC to fight.
SOE Battleship should have been focused on being a PVE combat ship, something you can take into low/null/WH and feel a bit safer ratting in the hostilities of non-secure space.
|
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 09:00:00 -
[1457] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Marcia en Welle wrote:Still no update on this........ Feels like an aeon since we last heard any comment. I hope CCP is still listening to feedback. Any comment would be appreciated as to the ETA on getting these on Singularity, and getting the proposals for cruisers and battleships. seeing as there is no more debate its probably because people have finally accepted that ccp wont change what is broken about the new line of frigates. No, there's no debate because there's nothing left to debate. Everyone has thrown there cards on the table and made the points that needed to be made - now it's a matter of waiting for a response from a Dev on this matter. That said they sure are taking there sweet time... I'd like to think it's because they are taking some of our suggestions to heart and rethinking some of these changes. Only time will tell now. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
507
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 10:13:00 -
[1458] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Marcia en Welle wrote:Still no update on this........ Feels like an aeon since we last heard any comment. I hope CCP is still listening to feedback. Any comment would be appreciated as to the ETA on getting these on Singularity, and getting the proposals for cruisers and battleships. seeing as there is no more debate its probably because people have finally accepted that ccp wont change what is broken about the new line of frigates. No, there's no debate because there's nothing left to debate. Everyone has thrown there cards on the table and made the points that needed to be made - now it's a matter of waiting for a response from a Dev on this matter. That said they sure are taking there sweet time... I'd like to think it's because they are taking some of our suggestions to heart and rethinking some of these changes. Only time will tell now. don't expect any answer, what they will do now is eventually release one update, ignoring the feedback given here, adjusting things / roles bonus in a way nobody wants, then remain mute until the release of summer expansion, leaving us with broken pirate frigs while shitstorm hit forum an ISDs mass close topic and redirect to a "feedback" topic no dev will ever dare to visit, let alone answer as usual... |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1334
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 10:34:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Wording for nos:
Energy Vampires RULES AGAIN! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3920
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 11:46:00 -
[1460] - Quote
Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/ |
|
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Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice Lords Of Stars
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 11:56:00 -
[1461] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/
The legend speaks! Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 13:19:00 -
[1462] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/ Great to hear back. Thank you for the update. I am interested to hear what the other changes you tried were, you mention they were too strong, but was just wondering what they were?
I earlier proposed giving blood raiders a web strength and range bonus combined. I was wondering if you tried that?
Also very much looking forward to the devblog and proposals for the cruisers and battleships. I am primarily interested to see how the Sansha line plays out, as I am not a big fan of the Sansha changes personally. So I will be very interested to see how they will affect the other ships.
Also really looking forward to getting these on Singularity and testing them out!
Thanks again for the update.
Edit - Also any ETA for the devblog and pirate cruiser and battleship balance? |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
304
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 13:51:00 -
[1463] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/ so if it is suppar would it get the broken 200% damage bonus like serp ships? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
584
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:39:00 -
[1464] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/
please learn to play, cruor requires 4 lowslots. untanked neuting ships with overpowered webs are really not a good idea. for solo they're extremely powerful and get no fights, and in anything bigger than solo, they're killed instantly. what you're making here is a ship that's not very useful for anything. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
688
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:55:00 -
[1465] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/
hopefully some response to webs being nerfed would be nice ... 90% is insanely OP ... 60% webs are OP especially when a 1day noob can use them at that level no other e-war is so powerful for no skill investment on any ship..
also some work on serpentis and angels are needed .. a clear form of tanking i.e. angels are supposed to be shield tanked .. but you wouldn't know it atm.... serpentis should be armour tanked but again it is hard to notice this.. more differentiation from their gallente and minmatar counterparts is needed.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:52:00 -
[1466] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/
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Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 18:38:00 -
[1467] - Quote
Won't the new Cruor be the only frigate in the game that would be able to catch a kiting ship, apply some nice dps and have a chance of neuting them out completely or using a powerfull nos to keep whatever mods on the ship running?
I think it has a pretty nice role. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
203
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 19:35:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Ashley Animus wrote:Won't the new Cruor be the only frigate in the game that would be able to catch a kiting ship, apply some nice dps and have a chance of neuting them out completely or using a powerfull nos to keep whatever mods on the ship running?
I think it has a pretty nice role.
Please read the first page again.
What will a Cruor be doing after TQ release?
A kiting boat closes in on your Cruor. You decide to commit. You lock zee kiter with your 30km web. Kiter decides that its not going the why he wanted and swings to warp away.
Or
The kiter makes fun of you and shoots your Cruor to a shiney killmail.
In both cases will your meta 4 or tech2 NOS with 6.6km range no effect whatsoever on the attacking kiter.
The End signature |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
724
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 19:46:00 -
[1469] - Quote
I worry about the Succubus... it looks like the AB bonus could work.... but then its not a fast ship to start with, but at least speed is useful o a frigate.
It may even work on the Phantasm... but its a really bad bonus for the nightmare, and this "unify themes" thing has me worried.
Unlike the Mach, Vindi, Bhaal, or even rattler, the NM has no PvP role. Its solo PvE role was limited to amarr high sec space (or I suppose deep blue with EM rats?) -but marauders have supersceded it completely at solo PvE
Its *only* role is as an incursion boat. Extra mobility will not help it, especially if that comes in the form of an AB bonus (MWD bonus would help... a little, but it would be fairly pointless, MJD bonus would overlap with marauders) |
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:19:00 -
[1470] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Ashley Animus wrote:Won't the new Cruor be the only frigate in the game that would be able to catch a kiting ship, apply some nice dps and have a chance of neuting them out completely or using a powerfull nos to keep whatever mods on the ship running?
I think it has a pretty nice role. Please read the first page again. What will a Cruor be doing after TQ release? A kiting boat closes in on your Cruor. You decide to commit. You lock zee kiter with your 30km web. Kiter decides that its not going the why he wanted and swings to warp away. Or The kiter makes fun of you and shoots your Cruor to a shiney killmail. In both cases will your meta 4 or tech2 NOS with 6.6km range no effect whatsoever on the attacking kiter. The End
I think the thing is any kiting ship would either have to warp off at the moment they get webbed unless they have a web fitted too, so they can scram range kite. If they dont, which is not uncommon, and it gets scrammed it will be neuted and killed. Same goes for brawling setups. The only thing this ship should worry about is not getting into neut range which i dont think will be a very big problem. Can always go for a AB of something.
Edit: Slap a 10mn AB on it and it will be unstoppable :p |
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elitatwo
Congregatio
203
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 21:17:00 -
[1471] - Quote
Ashley Animus wrote: Edit: Slap a 10mn AB on it and it will be unstoppable :p
I can only hope that the Phantasm will be a scary as she was prior to Apocrypha and people start 'self-destruct' at the point they see one on d-scan.
As for Guristas, maybe give them the missle formular we had before winter 2006, yes the one without that 'tracking stuff' that doesn't belong there anyway. signature |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
304
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 22:53:00 -
[1472] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/ please learn to play, cruor requires 4 lowslots. untanked neuting ships with overpowered webs are really not a good idea. for solo they're extremely powerful and get no fights, and in anything bigger than solo, they're killed instantly. what you're making here is a ship that's not very useful for anything. how about you learn to 2 play nooblord. 4 lowslot cruor is completely meaningless, its tank is FINE right now. what it needs is 4 mids. |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 23:16:00 -
[1473] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/
Thank you for the update but I think more details on the testing and thought process would go a long way. Stating "too strong" does not provide much meaningful insight.
If we are discussing "too strong", I think any soloer would agree that the Daredevil is head and shoulders above any other T1 frig but it's still maintaining it's op characteristics. I'd really like to know what you guys tested that brought the Cruor into the "too strong" level (more so than a DD).
|
Leyline777
Risk Breakers Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 03:20:00 -
[1474] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Mornin!
Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 15 Signature radius: 40
I like the worm's direction but am concerned about the gila, specifically where it comes into opposition versus the VNI. Currently the two are fairly balanced, one having a cavernous bay and resists, with the other having a huge velocity and tracking boost. I worry that reducing the drone bay of the gila will make it less a contest between it and the ishtar and more between gila and vni.
What are your general ideas with the gila changes? If it lost drone bay I would hope that it would gain more grid/cpu and additional launcher slots to compensate.
|
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 07:02:00 -
[1475] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/ Thank you for the update but I think more details on the testing and thought process would go a long way. Stating "too strong" does not provide much meaningful insight. If we are discussing "too strong", I think any soloer would agree that the Daredevil is head and shoulders above any other T1 frig but it's still maintaining it's op characteristics. I'd really like to know what you guys tested that brought the Cruor into the "too strong" level (more so than a DD). This... What exactly did you guys test on the Cruor, because honestly I see no situation where this ship has any use beyond "looking" cool in this iteration. It really seems like you pick and choose the posts you want to read with regards to the balance "discussion" because you don't actually discuss anything with us you say "we did some things, didn't like them so we're sticking with idea that Bloodraider ships are supposed to remain terrible, it just fits with the line"
And this dev blog you speak of, I know I shouldn't hold my breath on what could possibly be in a dev blog (outside the already posted stats of the pirate frigs) that could have any effect on them, but I guess it's yet another wait and see. |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 08:17:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Leyline777 wrote:
I like the worm's direction but am concerned about the gila, specifically where it comes into opposition versus the VNI. Currently the two are fairly balanced, one having a cavernous bay and resists, with the other having a huge velocity and tracking boost. I worry that reducing the drone bay of the gila will make it less a contest between it and the ishtar and more between gila and vni.
What are your general ideas with the gila changes? If it lost drone bay I would hope that it would gain more grid/cpu and additional launcher slots to compensate.
Wait wait wait.... pirate and navy ships don't have to be balanced. Pirate should be stronger than navy.
|
Ambrosse Brutus
Cyborg Infomorph Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 14:01:00 -
[1477] - Quote
Swap the afterburner bonus currently proposed for Sansha to Blood Raiders, and give the web range bonus to Sansha at 50% per level just under that which can be achieved by the Huginn. Then remove the Sansha tracking bonus as it will be no longer required, and add some suitable Caldari bonus.
Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances per level
Role Bonus: 250% bonus to Stasis Webifier range
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness per level
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 01:00:00 -
[1478] - Quote
Ambrosse Brutus wrote: Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.
By this logic no change needed to be made for the blood's either, try again. |
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 14:19:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/ Thank you for the update but I think more details on the testing and thought process would go a long way. Stating "too strong" does not provide much meaningful insight. If we are discussing "too strong", I think any soloer would agree that the Daredevil is head and shoulders above any other T1 frig but it's still maintaining it's op characteristics. I'd really like to know what you guys tested that brought the Cruor into the "too strong" level (more so than a DD).
One guess is that they added a range bonus within the neut and vamp strength bonus. A "15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range" which would make a small neut have a range of 11km or so. Or atleast i hope they considered it. |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 14:41:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Ambrosse Brutus wrote: Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.
By this logic no change needed to be made for the blood's either, try again. Blood ships already have a web range bonus on the Bhaalgorn. CCP already mentioned they didn't want mixed bonuses across ship lines. |
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Stouman
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 17:07:00 -
[1481] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: let us know what you think I did not like the recent trait change to HAC & AF; railroading them into MWD use, especially given that the faster you go in relation to your target, the higher chance turrets will be completely ineffective (MISS)... so i don't like the Sansha AB+turret idea either; regardless of any tracking bonus. The other stuff seems to be an overall improvement, but I have some different ideas to share on these subjects (see below). ~*~ I tried to simplify my ideas down to changes that could be implemented without much (if any) change to the current slot layout and/or stats/themes, and yet make the ship & mods useful enough to see some actual use beyond being eye-candy. ~*~ So without further ado... *** Suggestions/ideas for BOOD RAIDERS, and SANSHAS, with additional ideas for other (currently underutilized) mods; mainly the NOS/NEUT and SMARTBOMB mods: ____________ Roleplay/lore: Sansha responds to capsuler counter-incursion gangs by improvising new tech/tactics?
Sanshas ship traits: - NEW smartbomb range/damage bonus with focused/2ndary-mode option; similar to h. interdictor
#1 ship skill bonus per level:[/u] smartbomb range 5-15% (25-75 ~ 50%? @ level 5?)
#2 ship skill bonus per level:[/u] passive bonus to shield, armor, sensors, inertia, or agility (help them live to sb range)
Role bonus: +100% energy turret damage (unchanged unless high slots & hardpoints adjusted, in which case the smartbomb idea can be tossed out and we might as well go back to the Sanshas I remember: split weapon system laser / missiles
Special ability: can use smartbombs in focused, single-target "smart" mode (must do so within high security systems) Actual details are up for debate, but i'm thinking just make it a single-target blast of about the same damage with perhaps 2x range of the omni-directional blast being the default. ## New item: ## (True Sansha versus Sansha?) implant set: +30-50% to smartbomb damage? _______________________ Blood Raider / Nos/neut mechanic re-balance: a capacitor emptied by a nos/neut module will now cause an immediate "power outtage"/system reboot that will create a brief "micro-stun" (0-2 sec?) with effects differing from current "capacitor is empty" as follows: unlocking of all current targets, immediate de-activation of any module requiring cap, (warp/jump drives immediately stopped, module cycles halted etc.) shield hp regeneration stops until some cap exists again in the capacitor.
Roleplay / lore: More players flying BR ships in your fleet, the stronger the probability of maintaining this nos/neut semi-stun-lock, which fits with their reclusive cult theme of sticking to themselves and having mysterious ways.
functions uneffected by this new nos/neut mechanic might include: drone use, FoF missile use (purely due to lack of a target required), reloading of weapon systems (all?), and other passive systems (so actually Guristas ships, among others, are good counter-tactic).
Other ways to completely nullify/counter-act the new nos/neut "system shock" involve use of various (almost completely unused currently) modules, usually low-slot modules as my thoughts were that those items might be said to have a number of different natural resistances to such electronic/energy attack, including but not limited to: having their own power-supply/battery-pack (LOW-power slot?), "being in need of additional functionality for economic viability they have been improved in their basic factory specs to include a buffer/firewall-type defense against just such effect/attack" (RP/balance reasons; so they will sell/use better), and/or finally they Example modules: capacitor flux coils, shield flux coils, signal amplifiers, backup arrays. Examples of modules that will, without changes to current stats, minimize the nos/neut effects: cap batteries, cap rechargers, sensor boosters, and modules with lower cap/cycle requirements.
I think I've rambled enough for now. Thanks for stopping by! o7 You kill the jackal! You see here a jackal corpse. This jackal corpse tastes terrible! You finish eating the jackal corpse. |
Leyline777
Risk Breakers Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:04:00 -
[1482] - Quote
Giullare wrote:Leyline777 wrote:
I like the worm's direction but am concerned about the gila, specifically where it comes into opposition versus the VNI. Currently the two are fairly balanced, one having a cavernous bay and resists, with the other having a huge velocity and tracking boost. I worry that reducing the drone bay of the gila will make it less a contest between it and the ishtar and more between gila and vni.
What are your general ideas with the gila changes? If it lost drone bay I would hope that it would gain more grid/cpu and additional launcher slots to compensate.
Wait wait wait.... pirate and navy ships don't have to be balanced. Pirate should be stronger than navy.
That was my point. currently gila is between ishtar and vni. Im hoping the switch if its like the worm, will make it gila> isthar> vni |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:44:00 -
[1483] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:Dun'Gal wrote:Ambrosse Brutus wrote: Also, I believe CCP may be reducing the T2 web strength to 50% in the future, that is why no change was made to the Serpentis bonus.
By this logic no change needed to be made for the blood's either, try again. Blood ships already have a web range bonus on the Bhaalgorn. CCP already mentioned they didn't want mixed bonuses across ship lines. Either the bhaalgorn gets a web strength bonus, or the other two get a range bonus. Well in that case, when it came time to rebalance the pirate BS they could've addressed that, instead they give a trash bonus to a ship that was already hurting, and that has no meaningful use for it outside of replacing a Hyena in a fleet. And before anyone says it, don't even try to suggest this is for anti-kiting because this ship will not be catching kiters any better with this change than it already does now, that is to say the ONLY way it's catching and holding kiters is with an MWD, and if it's got one of those fit then having a bonus to your web range is completely moot because you can already catch 99% of kiters even with NO web.
My point is simply this; supposedly testing made this ship OP, in light of the fact that the Daredevil, which remains relatively unchanged (apart from getting more lock range,) is currently far and away the best Pirate Frigate, and will be secured a spot even further ahead of the Cruor when this change takes place. The Cruor was, IMO the only pirate frig that was ever able to give a Daredevil a good fight. This change makes the Daredevil completely undisputed and best pick for every scenario you might even consider the Cruor. And the Cruor, doesn't gain a "niche role" because this role already exists for a frigate and is extraordinarily rare to ever see used as it is, nevermind when you have to pay 3 times the price for the same, no correction - less, usefulness.
So I will ask again on the matter. What tests were done that made the Cruor too strong? What is your threshold for too strong? The way it stands I can think of a number of T1, 500k isk frigates that will lay a thrashing to your proposed Cruor, perhaps THEY are too strong. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
4349
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 20:01:00 -
[1484] - Quote
The Succubus looks exciting, and I'm definitely excited about what might happen to the Phantasm. In other news I have quite a few of both. And a lot of Sansha LP. ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 20:42:00 -
[1485] - Quote
@ Stouman
A bonus to smartbomb could be really OP if u consider that some ppl are allready multiboxing anomalies with smartbombing bs. |
Siigari Kitawa
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
361
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 22:15:00 -
[1486] - Quote
Just showed up, heard about shiny ship changes.
I heart my Cruor right now. It can be overgeared to be an unstoppable machine but let's talk tech 2 for a moment.
You're hitting its grid pretty hard -- that's going to make plate/mwd difficult. If its main role is going to be to catch kiting frigs it needs to be able to close range fast enough to throw a point down. Next the difference between the two bonuses is so drastic I don't see how they synergize well at all. Right now if you throw a faction web on a Cruor you can catch dumb pilots who get way too close and get an 18km web on em @ 90% velocity reduction. Very soon after you can throw neuts on them which incapacitates them completely.
I suggest you make the following bonuses this:
17.5% bonus to web range (10 x 87.5 = 18.75km) 25% bonus to energy emission systems range and transfer amount (7 x 125 = 15.75km)
First off, even if the ship had a 14km web you'd only be reaching out to about 28km with the old 20% bonus, anyway. This makes the ship more viable by giving it an ability to put pressure on the target's cap while it closes distance.
Second, If you're gonna hit the ship in the grid it needs to be able to get out after it's tackled its target. It doesn't have a damage bonus so it needs to work in unison with other ships or it'll find itself toast real fast. Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX |
King Rothgar
Aegis Interplanetary .Inc Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
395
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 00:51:00 -
[1487] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/
I can already tell you that the rifter is a better ship than your proposed cruor in every possible scenario. No test is required to prove this. It's beyond question really. I wouldn't consider the rifter the best t1 frigate either. Honestly the cruor needs a buff. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use one successfully. Your proposed changes to it are on a whole, a significant nerf to an already bad ship.
Web range is completely worthless to it. You might as well not give it a bonus at all if that's your proposed bonus. No one is going to fly this thing if they have any sense. A few supporters of the change here will but when they get destroyed by a 3 day old toon in a punisher, they'll promptly change their minds. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |
Tarra Nobilii
The Soul Forge
6
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 02:36:00 -
[1488] - Quote
I would just like to say I would like to see racial roles be more like;
Sansha: laser tracking, [shield boost bonus], laser damage
Blood: Web range, Neut effectiveness, laser damage
Gurista; ECM, shield resist (passive shield tank), drones
angel: speed mod effectiveness, projectile tracking (rather than damage) ,mass reduction (light ships)
serpentis: web effectiveness, hybrid damage, hybrid tracking
I think the proposed changes for sansha, speed mod bonus, is misplaced and a role that exists in eve is passed up (shield bonus). At present, minmatar are really the only shield boost bonus users...but I think it is a nice role for sanshas to have some sort of pvp purpose in this game. It can also create some nice fits for pve (which sansha already excels at); perhaps a bridge to marauders...as they are skill intensive. Speed stuff seems more appropriate for angel ships, that are already speed oriented. |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space BORG Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 14:31:00 -
[1489] - Quote
I am assuming the devblog in question, was the one about the drone changes, cause of the Guristas shipline?
So can we expect the postings for the pirate cruisers and battleships to go up and live soon? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 22:21:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Tarra Nobilii wrote:I would just like to say I would like to see racial roles be more like;
Sansha: laser tracking, [shield boost bonus], laser damage
Blood: Web range, Neut effectiveness, laser damage
Gurista; ECM, shield resist (passive shield tank), drones
angel: speed mod effectiveness, projectile tracking (rather than damage) ,mass reduction (light ships)
serpentis: web effectiveness, hybrid damage, hybrid tracking
I think the proposed changes for sansha, speed mod bonus, is misplaced and a role that exists in eve is passed up (shield bonus). At present, minmatar are really the only shield boost bonus users...but I think it is a nice role for sanshas to have some sort of pvp purpose in this game. It can also create some nice fits for pve (which sansha already excels at); perhaps a bridge to marauders...as they are skill intensive. Speed stuff seems more appropriate for angel ships, that are already speed oriented. I really hope that all these suggestions throughout the thread are heeded. There have been so many complaints about the Cruor and web range bonus, and also the Sansha getting an AB bonus.
Could we get a version 2 just as you did with the industrial ships, and then you can put two versions to the forum and make a better judgement regarding which one to implement. These pirate changes are going to be massively important for the game, affecting countless people who operate in npc null, and the people who utilise their ships. If you are wanting to encourage people into null sec then it will be crucial to get these right. It will be well worth spending some extra time and giving people the pirate ships they really want. |
|
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 17:55:00 -
[1491] - Quote
Hope=Lost
With the cruiser thread up it's quite obvious Rise is clueless about what ships are strong in the pirate line at the moment. Let's buff Serpentis more and nerf Blood Raiders. #soundlogic |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
863
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 18:23:00 -
[1492] - Quote
So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones). Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Theon Severasse
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
67
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 22:10:00 -
[1493] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones).
Literally came to the thread to say that.
I feel like it might have been something that was missed, but the previous 5m3 drone bay per level should really have been added into the hull natively to give it 50m3 overall.
At the very least the bay should be a multiple of 10, so that complete flights of drones can be held (but don't take it down to 20). |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1068
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 22:17:00 -
[1494] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones). Literally came to the thread to say that. I feel like it might have been something that was missed, but the previous 5m3 drone bay per level should really have been added into the hull natively to give it 50m3 overall. At the very least the bay should be a multiple of 10, so that complete flights of drones can be held (but don't take it down to 20). Old worm only had room for one spare flight as well, which has always been lower than the gila which currently can hold 3 large/sentry flights. This makes sense on a hull that can use more than one size of drone. Not sure it's necessary or even justifiable that a ship with only one size to use should have the same bay to bandwidth ratio. |
Naomi Anthar
317
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 23:24:00 -
[1495] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones).
No No No No ... and say it as owner of over 60 worms. I though that it is typo on gila. Lets be real you get huge hp bonus on those drones now. You are literally asking for INFINITE supply of drones on ship(which is absolutely not intended and it was always major trait of drones - being destructible). It's going to be hard to kill those 5 small drones with 300% hp bonus when they chew you along with buffed missile bonus. Hell noone should go for drones after this change - but instead focus worm - that will be tanky at same time. And with 8 as 40 bay would suggest we are talking about 32 worth of ehp in drones you need to take down ... unacceptable.
Worm is already top2 if not strongest new pirate frig. Just stop this madness. No need for more stupid buffs. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
730
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 07:05:00 -
[1496] - Quote
30m3 bay on the Worm would be reasonable. The drones might have a lot of ehp, but you tend to lose them more to warping out.
As far as being the best pirate frig, it will only be so on paper. Split weapons ships tend to look good on paper but perform poorly in actual use. It is why CCP got rid of most of the split weapons ships in the last few rounds of balancing. Like the Domi and Ishtar lost their hybrid bonuses, the Typhoon now only has a missile bonus, etc.
You'll make bank on the 60 you have because people will buy them up to see how good they are. |
Naomi Anthar
321
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 09:13:00 -
[1497] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:30m3 bay on the Worm would be reasonable. The drones might have a lot of ehp, but you tend to lose them more to warping out.
As far as being the best pirate frig, it will only be so on paper. Split weapons ships tend to look good on paper but perform poorly in actual use. It is why CCP got rid of most of the split weapons ships in the last few rounds of balancing. Like the Domi and Ishtar lost their hybrid bonuses, the Typhoon now only has a missile bonus, etc.
You'll make bank on the 60 you have because people will buy them up to see how good they are.
If that would be issue - noone would fly tristan with only 1 full flight of drones. Worm actually got 2,5. But you know what tristan is probably most op basic t1 frig in this game.
A reasonable approach would be to remove 5 bay. And again i gotta hella lot of worms (can provide screenshoot) ... but ship is already out of control. So for sake of any balance it cannot get buffed further.
And you are so sure that people will not like it after buying this ship ?
Speaking of split weapon systems i can name succesful ships easily : 1. Tristan - for same reason worm can work - hell even much better. 2. Algos , dragoon - yes even with TRI weapon system - launchers + guns + drones - tanky as hell , ganky as hell. 3. Vexor - one of strongest if not strongest t1 base cruiser. Working very well with split weapon system.
those are just examples you can get easily more - especially gallente ships.
Tell me one reason why worm may fail - if tristan already is king and it can often come on top in fights vs some assault frigs/faction frigs. Then how tristan on steroids aka worm won't be powerful ship ? |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 17:21:00 -
[1498] - Quote
Good day rise, I've been following your pirate cruiser thread closely and the fast responses in that thread tell me you couldn't really care less about the frigates. I would however like to quote something you mentioned in that thread for the people here who have been claiming opposite.
CCP Rise wrote:The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.
The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.
Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.
I still await a response as to the types of changes you made to the Cruor you felt made it too strong when you reconsidered the web bonus. I'm fairly certain almost everyone here can agree that nothing but the web bonus needs to be changed, we aren't asking for more damage, nor are we asking for more tank, or speed (those things were requested as compensation for the loss of this bonus).
While having different bonuses across the Blood Raiders hull line is probably not ideal for you balance guys, because you want things to be all neat, tidy and the same, you said it yourself in the OP that the ships at each hull size fulfill very different roles, and frankly they should be treated appropriately to compensate for this difference.
I must also continue to insist that you have misplaced the web range bonus, it definitely belongs on the Serpentis who happen to have that nice falloff bonus, and are faster ships overall. |
Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3249
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 18:35:00 -
[1499] - Quote
Is the Dramiel getting a warp speed bonus to 7.5 AU/s? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Naomi Anthar
321
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 19:40:00 -
[1500] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Is the Dramiel getting a warp speed bonus to 7.5 AU/s?
There is no reason why it shouldn't. I guess topic will get updated soon.
CCP Rise ... now that you did reduced pwg nerfs on cruiser maybe have a look on succubus / cruor fittings one more time. First one is excelent ship but is forced to use MASB without real option for extender. 2nd one is like impossible to fit now with plate. (because you still must have room for mwd , neuts/nos/lasers).
It is kinda weird that Worm almost got pwg of succubus T_T. |
|
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
730
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 20:14:00 -
[1501] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:30m3 bay on the Worm would be reasonable. The drones might have a lot of ehp, but you tend to lose them more to warping out.
As far as being the best pirate frig, it will only be so on paper. Split weapons ships tend to look good on paper but perform poorly in actual use. It is why CCP got rid of most of the split weapons ships in the last few rounds of balancing. Like the Domi and Ishtar lost their hybrid bonuses, the Typhoon now only has a missile bonus, etc.
You'll make bank on the 60 you have because people will buy them up to see how good they are. If that would be issue - noone would fly tristan with only 1 full flight of drones. Worm actually got 2,5. But you know what tristan is probably most op basic t1 frig in this game. A reasonable approach would be to remove 5 bay. And again i gotta hella lot of worms (can provide screenshoot) ... but ship is already out of control. So for sake of any balance it cannot get buffed further. And you are so sure that people will not like it after buying this ship ? Speaking of split weapon systems i can name succesful ships easily : 1. Tristan - for same reason worm can work - hell even much better. 2. Algos , dragoon - yes even with TRI weapon system - launchers + guns + drones - tanky as hell , ganky as hell. 3. Vexor - one of strongest if not strongest t1 base cruiser. Working very well with split weapon system. those are just examples you can get easily more - especially gallente ships. Tell me one reason why worm may fail - if tristan already is king and it can often come on top in fights vs some assault frigs/faction frigs. Then how tristan on steroids aka worm won't be powerful ship ?
Tristan is pretty weak. No damage bonuses, just tracking. We tried issuing them for decloaking at gate camps, but they are slow. Algos and Dragoons get used no where as often as Catalysts or Thrashers. Don't believe me? Go check the trading volume of them.
Vexors are the only one you mention that actually works, but they use hybrids and sentries, so they can apply damage instantly.
Like I said, split weapons bonuses look good on paper, but rarely work out in actual use. Of the 4 you mentioned, only one found a niche and sells well enough to prove it. I have no doubt Worms will be popular right after the change and sell for a premium. But long term, there are plenty of other ships that can do the close in brawler role at a better price. High damage dealing isn't exactly a unique thing with ships in this game. In the long run, the high speed and tackle bonuses of the other pirate frigs will make them more popular. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
306
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 20:23:00 -
[1502] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Tristan is pretty weak. No damage bonuses, just tracking. We tried issuing them for decloaking at gate camps, but they are slow. Algos and Dragoons get used no where as often as Catalysts or Thrashers. Don't believe me? Go check the trading volume of them.
Thats intresting because out here in the minmatar/amarr warzone catalysts and thrashers are obsolete and everybody uses algos's and dragoons. also #random facts
|
Rabbit P
23rd Tier Overseer's Personal Effects Pangu Coalition
8
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 01:22:00 -
[1503] - Quote
Rise, since you state in the Pirate Faction Cruisers post that
CCP Rise wrote: So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three
will Dramiel also get a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration? |
suicide
Ars ex Discordia
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 04:08:00 -
[1504] - Quote
IMO the Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake could use some drone velocity and tracking bonuses to really accentuate their very narrow drone specialization.
They can only use one type of drone effectively. With that narrow a specialization they better be damn good at it. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
101
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 04:36:00 -
[1505] - Quote
suicide wrote:IMO the Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake could use some drone velocity and tracking bonuses to really accentuate their very narrow drone specialization.
They can only use one type of drone effectively. With that narrow a specialization they better be damn good at it. Well the drones themselves are actually getting a speed boost anyway, and iirc just shooting targets becomes a problem when they make drones too fast (ie they mwd in and out of range too quickly to actually shoot stuff,) so I would think a further velocity bonus may push them over the edge. That said the drones these ships are carrying will be "super drones" so the extra tracking probably isn't necessary as they will already do much more damage over time anyway. |
HiddenPorpoise
Under Dark
183
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 06:00:00 -
[1506] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Algos and Dragoons get used no where as often as Catalysts or Thrashers. Don't believe me? Go check the trading volume of them.
Vexors are the only one you mention that actually works, but they use hybrids and sentries, so they can apply damage instantly.
I'm worried that you are in goon and don't know why that is. Vexors only fit sentries in niche fits. But they tend to be on top of their targets webbing them where drone speed doesn't matter. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 08:02:00 -
[1507] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Algos and Dragoons get used no where as often as Catalysts or Thrashers. Don't believe me? Go check the trading volume of them.
Vexors are the only one you mention that actually works, but they use hybrids and sentries, so they can apply damage instantly.
I'm worried that you are in goon and don't know why that is. Vexors only fit sentries in niche fits. But they tend to be on top of their targets webbing them where drone speed doesn't matter.
Being a goon tends to worry a lot of people. |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
85
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 09:07:00 -
[1508] - Quote
Can i has EFT files ? |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
4
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 22:52:00 -
[1509] - Quote
So considering there has been more dev replies in one day in the cruisers thread than in two weeks in this thread should we all just resign to the fact that this is a done deal? It's sad because I have to assume pirate frigates get flown alot more than pirate cruisers but are getting less attention to feedback.
I think at this point it will be up to us to shame CCP once these frigs are on the test server. :keeps looking at the Cruor |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
102
|
Posted - 2014.04.10 07:26:00 -
[1510] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:So considering there has been more dev replies in one day in the cruisers thread than in two weeks in this thread should we all just resign to the fact that this is a done deal? It's sad because I have to assume pirate frigates get flown alot more than pirate cruisers but are getting less attention to feedback.
I think at this point it will be up to us to shame CCP once these frigs are on the test server. :keeps looking at the Cruor Fly them as much as you can pre-patch and enjoy them now. I'm calling this whole Pirate faction rebalance fiasco a failure now. And I would doubt even if they realize it's a failure after launch they will do anything worthwhile to fix it. |
|
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
739
|
Posted - 2014.04.10 23:34:00 -
[1511] - Quote
The Dramiel still sucks compared to other Pirate Faction frigates |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
307
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 05:18:00 -
[1512] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:The Dramiel still sucks compared to other Pirate Faction frigates its not worse than the cruor |
Buckethead bot
Eleven Inches Unfitted
9
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 17:52:00 -
[1513] - Quote
so basicly nerfing a cruor. Good idea |
Syrias Bizniz
Black Watch Syndicate Vitoc Health Services
280
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 18:44:00 -
[1514] - Quote
Yay, Dramiel getting somewhat viable! |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
311
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 20:42:00 -
[1515] - Quote
just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly. |
Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 02:01:00 -
[1516] - Quote
Hello CCP And will the Rat faction noob ships be getting same work over as the rest of the rat ships? For their cost I would hope you do not forget to love them too. |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 05:04:00 -
[1517] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly.
At least now you have a chance to bring another ship into neut range. I wonder what kind of solo pvp CCP expects it to do post change.
..and if I hear the suggestion that it will work well in gangs/fleets I may go nuts
|
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
105
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 07:32:00 -
[1518] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly. At least now you have a chance to bring another ship into neut range. I wonder what kind of solo pvp CCP expects it to do post change. ..and if I hear the suggestion that it will work well in gangs/fleets I may go nuts lol, you know what else works well in fleets? Virtually every other ship that can also use a web, AND for a fraction of the cost, balance at its finest. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
3279
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 12:12:00 -
[1519] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:..and if I hear the suggestion that it will work well in gangs/fleets I may go nuts This is going to be awesome in small gangs! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
311
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:15:00 -
[1520] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caval Marten wrote:..and if I hear the suggestion that it will work well in gangs/fleets I may go nuts This is going to be awesome in small gangs! you no whats better than the proposed cruor? a triple neut tristan, hell even a double neut tristan. gets the SAME dps. slightly less neuting power, but hey you no what? its only 10 MIL. in small gangs this ship is better. drones chase the target for dps, there no waiting to get into laser range. |
|
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
740
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 23:15:00 -
[1521] - Quote
How much will the Dramiel warp increase by? |
Syrias Bizniz
Black Watch Syndicate Vitoc Health Services
280
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 14:09:00 -
[1522] - Quote
50%, going up to 7.5 AU/s. 'Faction Ceptor' so to say. |
Lich Reaper
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
4
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 02:26:00 -
[1523] - Quote
These changes are cool, but none of them actually justify the price of these ships.
The Cruor has the worst change of all. Why would I need 20km webs when i can barely shoot and neut/nos past scram range? This is a worthless 'bonus' that is justifiable on a bhaalgorn maybe... but not the frig version.
For the record, all these ships will still suck compared to the dramiel and daredevil if their prices stay the same. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
311
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 03:35:00 -
[1524] - Quote
Lich Reaper wrote:These changes are cool, but none of them actually justify the price of these ships.
The Cruor has the worst change of all. Why would I need 20km webs when i can barely shoot and neut/nos past scram range? This is a worthless 'bonus' that is justifiable on a bhaalgorn maybe... but not the frig version.
For the record, all these ships will still suck compared to the dramiel and daredevil if their prices stay the same. a triple neut tristan will own a DD. just sayin its 1/10th the price of the cruor.
but ya most of these changes suck. the DD needs a 100% damage bonus reduction so it can sorta of be on par with the damn cruor |
Shen Loong
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 22:29:00 -
[1525] - Quote
The Cruor bonuses are indeed quite odd. You have a statis web range bonus which allows you to web out at 26km with overheated T1 webs (34km with factions), and yet you also have an energy vampire/neut bonus which requires you to be close in. As such I would suggest removing the energy vampire/neut bonus and replacing it with an optimal range bonus. This will allow the Cruor to kite out past 20km with webs still active; quite effective and therefore worthy of it's pirate pricetag.
Currently:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
My suggestion:
CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus: 5% (or 7.5%) bonus to optimal range of turrets
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
- |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
311
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Posted - 2014.04.17 22:49:00 -
[1526] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.
Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.
o/ its been 17 days since a response on the frigate thread. i think its time we have a legit response on these ships. everybody is in unisen about the cruor being crap. |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
741
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 13:53:00 -
[1527] - Quote
Shen Loong wrote:The Cruor bonuses are indeed quite odd. You have a statis web range bonus which allows you to web out at 26km with overheated T1 webs (34km with factions), and yet you also have an energy vampire/neut bonus which requires you to be close in. As such I would suggest removing the energy vampire/neut bonus and replacing it with an optimal range bonus. This will allow the Cruor to kite out past 20km with webs still active; quite effective and therefore worthy of it's pirate pricetag.
I don't think you understand that the Blood Raiders are, first and foremost, capacitor warfare ships.
Everything else is secondary. Getting a long range web will help you close in enough to neut, since the ship isn't very fast anyways.
Frankly, making the Cruor just another Slicer with a web is a bad idea, and very unoriginal. We're trying to avoid making ships have generic bonuses.
PS, for the others: It would be immensely OP for the Cruor to have a neut as far as it can web. The only people that are suggesting this are probably the ones who have Cruor stockpiles sitting around. |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
5
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Posted - 2014.04.20 03:41:00 -
[1528] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:Shen Loong wrote:The Cruor bonuses are indeed quite odd. You have a statis web range bonus which allows you to web out at 26km with overheated T1 webs (34km with factions), and yet you also have an energy vampire/neut bonus which requires you to be close in. As such I would suggest removing the energy vampire/neut bonus and replacing it with an optimal range bonus. This will allow the Cruor to kite out past 20km with webs still active; quite effective and therefore worthy of it's pirate pricetag.
I don't think you understand that the Blood Raiders are, first and foremost, capacitor warfare ships. Everything else is secondary. Getting a long range web will help you close in enough to neut, since the ship isn't very fast anyways. Frankly, making the Cruor just another Slicer with a web is a bad idea, and very unoriginal. We're trying to avoid making ships have generic bonuses. PS, for the others: It would be immensely OP for the Cruor to have a neut as far as it can web. The only people that are suggesting this are probably the ones who have Cruor stockpiles sitting around.
The problem with your scenario is that the Cruor is one of the slower frigates out there so even if you are webbing someone from 20km down to under 10km, the other ship will then be able to web you and just stay out of cap warfare range.
The current Cruor actually works for your scenario because the 90% web can allow the slow Cruor to dictate range.
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Goldensaver
Lom Corporation Brothers of Tangra
394
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Posted - 2014.04.20 19:23:00 -
[1529] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Lich Reaper wrote:These changes are cool, but none of them actually justify the price of these ships.
The Cruor has the worst change of all. Why would I need 20km webs when i can barely shoot and neut/nos past scram range? This is a worthless 'bonus' that is justifiable on a bhaalgorn maybe... but not the frig version.
For the record, all these ships will still suck compared to the dramiel and daredevil if their prices stay the same. a triple neut tristan will own a DD. just sayin its 1/10th the price of the cruor. but ya most of these changes suck. the DD needs a 100% damage bonus reduction so it can sorta of be on par with the damn cruor Don't see how that will happen. You'll never get in neut range in a Tristan when he's got you going 10% of max speed at 14+km from him, and his DPS will pop you before yours kills him.
Not that it changes the point on the Cruor. |
Ebag Trescientas
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 00:47:00 -
[1530] - Quote
Playing around with some Worm fits in Pyfa, it looks like T2 light missiles will be difficult to impossible because of the CPU reqs. Adding 10 CPU, or another low slot to allow fitting a CPU module would make a world of difference.
Worm is very CPU intensive due to the shield + drone + missile reqs, while it's fairly light on PG. I'd happily swap 10 PG for 10 CPU. |
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Naomi Anthar
327
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Posted - 2014.04.22 11:01:00 -
[1531] - Quote
Ebag Trescientas wrote:Playing around with some Worm fits in Pyfa, it looks like T2 light missiles will be difficult to impossible because of the CPU reqs. Adding 10 CPU, or another low slot to allow fitting a CPU module would make a world of difference.
Worm is very CPU intensive due to the shield + drone + missile reqs, while it's fairly light on PG. I'd happily swap 10 PG for 10 CPU.
Maybe it's intended that you don't fit your ship with MWD , LMLs and T2 Shield Extender / MASB ? Ships is super CRAZY strong, maybe just meta your launchers ? Or use fitting mod if you want all stuff ?
The worm has best fittings from pirate frigs anyway . Please don't be like those guys from Rattle thread , where no amount of buffs will make them happy. Have some mercy on this game. And have mercy for balance. Ships is already broken in opness. Don't push it further.
Look again at your suggestion and look at stats from other ships - dramiel for example ? Another low slot ? What do you mean that it does have more lows than cruor (supposed to be armor tanked ?) ? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1339
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Posted - 2014.04.22 12:16:00 -
[1532] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly. At least now you have a chance to bring another ship into neut range. I wonder what kind of solo pvp CCP expects it to do post change. ..and if I hear the suggestion that it will work well in gangs/fleets I may go nuts
I already explained this 8 times but no you do not have. BEcause your neut range is smaller than the enemy NORMAL web range. That measn that doe snot matter you web your enemy further away, at 13 km he will web you and since the cruor is a SLOW frigate you will not gain any more ground, remaining forever outside small neut range. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5220
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 12:53:00 -
[1533] - Quote
Ebag Trescientas wrote:Playing around with some Worm fits in Pyfa, it looks like T2 light missiles will be difficult to impossible because of the CPU reqs. Adding 10 CPU, or another low slot to allow fitting a CPU module would make a world of difference.
Worm is very CPU intensive due to the shield + drone + missile reqs, while it's fairly light on PG. I'd happily swap 10 PG for 10 CPU.
Hilariously, I am actually considering making a double web, rocket, afterburner, armor tanked Worm fit to see how it works out once it hits SiSi. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Naomi Anthar
328
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Posted - 2014.04.22 13:09:00 -
[1534] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ebag Trescientas wrote:Playing around with some Worm fits in Pyfa, it looks like T2 light missiles will be difficult to impossible because of the CPU reqs. Adding 10 CPU, or another low slot to allow fitting a CPU module would make a world of difference.
Worm is very CPU intensive due to the shield + drone + missile reqs, while it's fairly light on PG. I'd happily swap 10 PG for 10 CPU. Hilariously, I am actually considering making a double web, rocket, afterburner, armor tanked Worm fit to see how it works out once it hits SiSi.
Nothing new ... there is plenty of armor merlins around already ;)
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Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
743
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Posted - 2014.04.22 16:22:00 -
[1535] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Caval Marten wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly. At least now you have a chance to bring another ship into neut range. I wonder what kind of solo pvp CCP expects it to do post change. ..and if I hear the suggestion that it will work well in gangs/fleets I may go nuts I already explained this 8 times but no you do not have. BEcause your neut range is smaller than the enemy NORMAL web range. That measn that doe snot matter you web your enemy further away, at 13 km he will web you and since the cruor is a SLOW frigate you will not gain any more ground, remaining forever outside small neut range.
13km neuts are OVERPOWERED. Don't engage in fights you won't be able to take. The Cruor can still engage kiting ships at very long ranges with scorch and the web. It is still effective. Web to slow down faster ships -> Overheated Scrambler -> Neut. Problem solved. |
Ebag Trescientas
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.04.22 19:55:00 -
[1536] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Ebag Trescientas wrote:Playing around with some Worm fits in Pyfa, it looks like T2 light missiles will be difficult to impossible because of the CPU reqs. Adding 10 CPU, or another low slot to allow fitting a CPU module would make a world of difference.
Worm is very CPU intensive due to the shield + drone + missile reqs, while it's fairly light on PG. I'd happily swap 10 PG for 10 CPU. Maybe it's intended that you don't fit your ship with MWD , LMLs and T2 Shield Extender / MASB ? Ships is super CRAZY strong, maybe just meta your launchers ? Or use fitting mod if you want all stuff ? The worm has best fittings from pirate frigs anyway . Please don't be like those guys from Rattle thread , where no amount of buffs will make them happy. Have some mercy on this game. And have mercy for balance. Ships is already broken in opness. Don't push it further. Look again at your suggestion and look at stats from other ships - dramiel for example ? Another low slot ? What do you mean that it does have more lows than cruor (supposed to be armor tanked ?) ?
Fair points, it doesn't need a low. All three Gurista ships have tons of PG to burn, but are tight on CPU, swapping some of the extra PG for CPU would allow for more versatility in your fits. (Try fitting 4 T2 heavies on Gila, and see what I mean.) Would be nice to have the option of fitting T2 light missile launchers with L5 skills, without sacrificing one of your lows or rigs for CPU.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hilariously, I am actually considering making a double web, rocket, afterburner, armor tanked Worm fit to see how it works out once it hits SiSi.
Problem with armor is the low slots conflicting with DDA's. Rockets really aren't a bad idea on a Worm, the damage amounts to basically the same, and with light drones you're going to be brawling anyway. |
Arronicus
Ravens' Nest Outlaw Horizon.
927
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 21:57:00 -
[1537] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Rattlesnake = only shield tanked drone ship ingame that is viable. "Lets take the redundant missile velocity bonus and make it a redundant missile damage bonus." Also as someone who literally only pilots a rattlesnake unless I'm in a shuttle or in a site the rattler can't get into, I am very strongly opposed to the rattlesnake changing in a negative way. I'll have to wait to see what you guys do as so far for balancing you've done a bang up job. I would argue that giving the rattler a sentry drone tracking bonus would perfect it. You'll say "But it overlaps with the dominix!" but it doesn't. No-one shield tanks a dominix. No-one armor tanks a rattler. There is no overlap there. Get an armor tanked dominix, or shell out for a pimped faction shield domi. Sounds fine to me.
Couple months old already, but I run shield tanked dominixs for 0.0 havens. You get ~850 dps out of the sentries, no weapons needed, massive agility, VERY cheap to fit (Fully t2, t1 rigs), and they tank the sites just fine, as long as you clear ships fast in the proper order. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
317
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 22:01:00 -
[1538] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Caval Marten wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly. At least now you have a chance to bring another ship into neut range. I wonder what kind of solo pvp CCP expects it to do post change. ..and if I hear the suggestion that it will work well in gangs/fleets I may go nuts I already explained this 8 times but no you do not have. BEcause your neut range is smaller than the enemy NORMAL web range. That measn that doe snot matter you web your enemy further away, at 13 km he will web you and since the cruor is a SLOW frigate you will not gain any more ground, remaining forever outside small neut range. 13km neuts are OVERPOWERED. Don't engage in fights you won't be able to take. The Cruor can still engage kiting ships at very long ranges with scorch and the web. It is still effective. Web to slow down faster ships -> Overheated Scrambler -> Neut. Problem solved.
yeah you think 8km scorch is very long ranges. it isnt. |
Juin Tsukaya
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 13:52:00 -
[1539] - Quote
I personally do not want to see the gila or rattlesnake loose drone bandwith or capacity. I got them specifically cause it was 1 of the few shield tank drone boats out there. |
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
116
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 19:25:00 -
[1540] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: DAREDEVIL
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 3M, 4L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 35 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 530(-7) / 560(-22) / 630(-27) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 390(-5) / 230000 (-4375) / 1.69 (+.01) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 385(+1) / 3.2(-.02) / 823000 / 3.65s(-.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km(+5km) / 650 / 5 Sensor strength: 12(-1) Signature radius: 35
========================================================================================
DRAMIEL
Gallente Frigate Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed
Minmatar Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage note: This ship has increased warp speed and acceleration
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 2 turrets, 1 launchers Fittings: 37 PWG, 133 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 590(+7) / 590(+8) / 520(+3) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 370(+5) / 208000(-26375) / 1.77(+.22) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 460 / 3.1(-.02) / 950000 / 4.08s(-.02) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 20 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 28km(+3km) / 750 / 5 Sensor strength: 11 Signature radius: 30(-2)
I'm not as bothered by the Daredevil here, as it does lack the Drones ... and you often do need to trade Speed for Tank, so it's your choice to make them Tank-Gank or Kite-Gank, but the Dramiel you never need to make the choice.
They're simply have the Damage to go toe-to-toe with Combat Ships, the Tank to go toe-to-toe with Assault Ships and the Speed to get out of nearly any situation that doesn't favour them. That isn't to say I don't see them killed very often, because bad pilots are well bad pilots - but it really does need some form of Achilles Heel just like all of the other Pirate Ships, where when you're fitting you have to make a hard choice about Tank, Spank, Kite or Jack-of-All
Personally I'd suggest if both the Dramiel and Daredevil had their Role Bonus dropped to 190%, perhaps adjust the mass to force more thought between Speed or Tank. Heck they could keep the bonus' if it just lost the Drones, as frankly especially at Frigate Class - Drones do make a BIG difference when they're not really a "primary" but secondary weapon system
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Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13415
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Posted - 2014.05.07 06:03:00 -
[1541] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly.
See, this right here is why I have 0 faith in most people's analysis of the Cruor changes. You haven't flown the damn ship before and it shows when you say something like that. Every video I have ever seen with a Cruor has it trying to orbit something at 0... you're not a Taranis or a Daredevil so STOP DOING THAT. You see, when each side has a 60% web, you are chasing each other around so transversal is extremely low... but 60% vs 90% and you should understand that you WON'T chase each other around. If you'd set it to "keep at range" you would not have this problem...
A very big deal with the Cruor is that it cannot fight tanky opponents. It will neut the enemy out but can't keep that neuting going... and it has very low DPS, so fight take longer. Two of these problems are being solved at least partially by adding 2 drones and giving it the Nos bonus - it will become much more fearsome in that aspect. A-type Nosferatu have 10.2km range, but don't fit 2 because you will cry if you don't have a neut... a single nos is enough to keep enemies perma-drained as well as keep your capacitor up, and Neuts still suck cap about 3x as fast as a Nos, so there really is not much reason to use dual Nos.
However, the part that sickens me the most is that Blood Raider are defined by having durability over the Amarrian equivalents, and yet the Cruor is being stuck with a tiny little tank when it is meant for long, drawn out engagements, and CCP doesn't seem to care too much about that :/ so they nerfed its PG like that would help it when Nos take MORE powergrid to fit than neuts, lol. Considering it couldn't fit the largest stuff without Anci Current Router rig beforehand, I don't know why they did this. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
336
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 19:22:00 -
[1542] - Quote
Sheimi Madaveda wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:just did some pvp in the current cruor. in a frigate fight even with the 90% web the damn ship still misses like 30% of its shots. and your gonna make it a frakkin 60% web? this thing will miss half its shots constantly. See, this right here is why I have 0 faith in most people's analysis of the Cruor changes. You haven't flown the damn ship before and it shows when you say something like that. Every video I have ever seen with a Cruor has it trying to orbit something at 0... you're not a Taranis or a Daredevil so STOP DOING THAT. You see, when each side has a 60% web, you are chasing each other around so transversal is extremely low... but 60% vs 90% and you should understand that you WON'T chase each other around. If you'd set it to "keep at range" you would not have this problem... A very big deal with the Cruor is that it cannot fight tanky opponents. It will neut the enemy out but can't keep that neuting going... and it has very low DPS, so fight take longer. Two of these problems are being solved at least partially by adding 2 drones and giving it the Nos bonus - it will become much more fearsome in that aspect. A-type Nosferatu have 10.2km range, but don't fit 2 because you will cry if you don't have a neut... a single nos is enough to keep enemies perma-drained as well as keep your capacitor up, and Neuts still suck cap about 3x as fast as a Nos, so there really is not much reason to use dual Nos. However, the part that sickens me the most is that Blood Raider are defined by having durability over the Amarrian equivalents, and yet the Cruor is being stuck with a tiny little tank when it is meant for long, drawn out engagements, and CCP doesn't seem to care too much about that :/ so they nerfed its PG like that would help it when Nos take MORE powergrid to fit than neuts, lol. Considering it couldn't fit the largest stuff without Anci Current Router rig beforehand, I don't know why they did this. since i almost exclusively fly amarr laser oriented ships and have over 3000 kills in frigate type ships i think i no what the **** i am doing in pvp. EVEN using keep at range this ship misses its shot. nay i wasnt using keep at range. i was using approach cuz this ship is ******* slower than almost everything in this game.
you let me know when you pvp in the cruor and ill tell you where you failed. the new cruor is **** PERIOD. |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13415
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 00:03:00 -
[1543] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:since i almost exclusively fly amarr laser oriented ships and have over 3000 kills in frigate type ships i think i no what the **** i am doing in pvp. EVEN using keep at range this ship misses its shot. nay i wasnt using keep at range. i was using approach cuz this ship is ******* slower than almost everything in this game.
you let me know when you pvp in the cruor and ill tell you where you failed. the new cruor is **** PERIOD.
You assume that I have nothing but high praise for the Cruor... that's false. Additionally, you failed to adress my point about the balance changes - a 90% web makes hitting enemies harder because one will move faster than the other versus moving at a roughly similar speed. It is why a Tormentor tends to hit more often than a Cruor does. On top of that, the longevity of the ship is being buffed by a very, very serious degree and it is getting DPS drones. It's also becoming faster than a Merlin with the changes, and while that is great... it's just one step. IMO the thing needs to be more like a tackler in terms of agility and speed, but not too much in that direction. I mean, that's what it is... a blood raider tackle frigate, lol.
Having general experience flying 0 utility amarrian frigates =/= a lot of experience flying a low DPS short range e-war frigate that happens to have lazers on it. That's apples to oranges.
The only time a solo pilot tried to engage me in TQ was with an Incursus, and I didn't neut it at all... I just kited with 90% web and scorch at 8km. Never had problems hitting, were it not for the staggered reps, I could have gone AFK until I heard him pop then get his pod. I had a nice, quiet time.
You on the other hand come stating things that are actually impossible "EVEN using keep at range this ship misses its shot" ...I'm going to assume you're trolling me because you have enough experience to know what inertia is and you know how to use that command correctly. You also know that server ticks exist hence commands don't happen instantly, perfectly, when you ask them to do so. I've already explained that a 60% web would make you miss your enemies less (which was the statement I originally replied to) but simultaneously it does create the problem of "how the hell do I get close enough to neut people?" which isn't too bad with a single a-type nos and a neut.
On top of all of that, your latest statement also bears true irony pertaining to your first one: a 20km web means it is easier to force enemies to fight you. They can't escape because they got out of scram range because you have enough CPU to fit long point+MWD and the capacitor isn't a problem anymore so why not? On top of that, it makes fighting kiters easier so this sort of thing doesn't happen when you see someone that doesn't fit a shiny web: https://zkillboard.com/kill/38376675/
TL;DR: You didn't talk about the balance of the changes, gave an opinion supporting it by telling lies, and then whine to me about not crushing things when you fly it. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Bischopt
Arbitrary Repossession
481
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 00:59:00 -
[1544] - Quote
Not sure whether or not this has been mentioned already since I'm unwilling to read through the entire thread(naught) but: isn't the succubus still going to be a little bit bad compared to the dramiel?
I did some quick research on this subject and realised that the succubus is still slower than the dramiel with an afterburner, has lower or about equal dps and is more vulnerable to neuting (because of the weapon cap requirement). And has no drones. Even more, the succubus and the dramiel now have the exact same slot layout (3 high, 4 mid, 3 low) so they'll most likely be fit in similar ways.
It just seems like the dramiel and the succubus are too similar and that the new afterburner speed bonus is losing to the raw speed of the dramiel hull, making the good ol' dramdram better in every way.
I could be mistaken about the way the afterburner speed bonus works in which case some of what I just said is false. If I indeed am wrong, someone please correct me. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
340
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 05:56:00 -
[1545] - Quote
Sheimi Madaveda wrote:
TL;DR: Im a troll, i have no experience flying any ship and i will say **** that i memorized in EFT.
you are literately delusional to think that a web range bonus is gonna make the cruor force anything to fight.
"actually impossible" have you even played this game? nothing is impossible in this game.
when you start to pvp you let me know how it goes until then good day sir o/ |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13415
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 07:20:00 -
[1546] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Sheimi Madaveda wrote:
TL;DR: Im a troll, i have no experience flying any ship and i will say **** that i memorized in EFT.
you are literately delusional to think that a web range bonus is gonna make the cruor force anything to fight. "actually impossible" have you even played this game? nothing is impossible in this game. when you start to pvp you let me know how it goes until then good day sir o/
By your own statement, you shouldn't be talking about the Cruor either because you have next to zero experience with it. Try again.
Most of my Cruor experience comes from the test server, where I've flown hundreds of them, iterating on fits very slightly and seeing how they perform. It has been my hobby for months, flying those things endlessly. I can hit TD Dramiels so don't give me that crap about "ooh noo my turrets miss every shot" because it takes some serious fail to do that once the 90% web takes effect.
I've flown it against Hawks, Vengeances, Daredevils, Dramiels, Enyo, Ishkur, Wolf, Jaguar, Harpies, Succubus, Worm, t1 frigates -including INS kiters. However, more often I get to fight larger ships such as Thorax, Deimos, etc.
Cruor can beat almost any non-cap boosted blaster/lazer brawler instantly (no duh), and has immense troubles against the Hawk NOT because you can't neut out the weapons, but because you cannot deal enough DPS to break its tank, and it is very difficult to speed tank due to Cruor's horrible agility. This is where the Cruor will benefit IMMENSELY from having an old Nos to keep its capacitor up without running out while fighting tanky foes.
It is possible to kill non-cap boosted Vengeances because neuts > web+armor rep. Refer to Hawk but it's easier since you can neut the reps out.
I can track Tracking Disruptor fit Slashers and Dramiels just fine with a Cruor, so I don't know what you're talking about - and I've fought at least a dozen TD Drams with Cruor. You must be using Conflag.
Drone boats are just the worst to fight with a Cruor. You can't track drones without putting your web on them, and that's bad. Not only that, they tend to fit Nos/Neut which utterly destroys the delicate state of a Cruor's capacitor as it is right now.
Daredevil fights look like this: Did you land within 3km of the DD? If Yes- you lose without LG Talismans.
Kiters are a problem but if you get a Fed Navy web then you have next to 0 problems with them because Cruor has the fastest lock speed of any combat frigate, almost rivaling attack frigates... couple that with a 90% web out to 18km and you win, but watch out for 200 DPS imperial Navy Slicers, they can eat you extremely quickly and I would avoid trying to catch one, better to let it try to come into the plex you are in.
Winmatar would win, but you just neut them and leave because they deal very little DPS. Or the Jag didn't bring Barrage and you kite him to death very slowly. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3035
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Posted - 2014.05.08 14:10:00 -
[1547] - Quote
Removed a post for trolling. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13415
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 18:33:00 -
[1548] - Quote
Ohai ISD! Hmmm, I gotta check ISD killboard and stuff to satisfy my curiosity lol.
Honestly, what the Cruor needs at this point is more tank. Right now it has fewer low slots than a Daredevil and while its PG compared to a DD is quite generous, it is still extremely frustrating to try and fit neuts, 400mm plate, and a rack of neuts. Even then, it is afterburner fit so it will die before it reaches the intended target in a fleet battle. At least buff its armor HP a bit more.
What little tank transitions to in solo PvP is that a few blasters fit for max gank can kill you before you neut them out, so you are left feeling quite sad because that takes Enyo, Daredevil, etc. off the hit list. Cruor cannot track light drones so engaging a cruiser is next to impossible without a dual nos dual rep setup or armor links but this is not something I care to fix. I do not think CCP intends it to be a solopwnmobile but it still need help.
I have used buffer pure neut Cruor to neut a Vigilant out before it could eat into my hull HP, which obviously means he did not use a cap booster. However, it is a testament to the sheer volume of capacitor that the Cruor can disintegrate when fit for the job - it is upwards of 95 GJ/s with 4 OH Neuts and LG talisman (about 29m ISK without omega. Neuts 101 GJ/s OH with LG omega, costs a bit more ~89mil ISK total) however I did not use implants during that fight. Howeve , that happened under perfectly ideal circumstances because I landed on top of him. Considering the PG Nerf coming, it will not be possible to make a neuting Cruor fit because it would not be able to fit any buffer at all.
Looking at the incoming changes, trying to close range on a target will be a bit like trying to enter a POS shield you do not have the password for when it comes to other frigates, and the hit to power grid sends the ship from having adequate PG to pretty abysmal. You already must lose the MWD and fit t2 acr to use 4 neuts and a 400mm plate... And Nos take more CPU and PG to fit than that.
That being said, I like where the web bonus is going because kiters were extremely annoying if you did not shell out the hull price again for a FN web. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
201
|
Posted - 2014.05.11 03:25:00 -
[1549] - Quote
Cruor needs another low. If it had that, and the fittings for a nos-powered dual rep setup....at least it could do something better than the sentinel. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
346
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 20:47:00 -
[1550] - Quote
ccp are you kidding me with the power grid nerf to the cruor?
what is this 2009? we have to run 2 ACR rigs now with the cruor to have a decent fit? what is this amarr ship from 2009?
this is supposed to be a mixed race ship why cant it have the minmatar grid and cpu? you know LARGEST guns largest tank full t2 mids? since it doesnt get anything else minmatar, no speed, no agility, no small sig, no nothing all it gets a crap web bonus and FULLLLLLLL amarr everything else. |
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Cascade Imminent
87
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 03:22:00 -
[1551] - Quote
the cruor is in many situations worse then then it was before the PG nerf just wrecked its tank which was garbage to begin with and the web nerf lets it get kited by everything with a scram ab or scram web
move one high to a low and increase the neut bonus to compensate also give it back all the fitting it had
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Cascade Imminent
87
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Posted - 2014.05.16 21:04:00 -
[1552] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/gp4hxed.png 3 launchers instead of 2 not that I mind at all Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
352
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 21:51:00 -
[1553] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:http://i.imgur.com/gp4hxed.png 3 launchers instead of 2 not that I mind at all thats destroyer dps. not frigate! |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
689
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 05:54:00 -
[1554] - Quote
so I tried to fit a dramiel, and the CPU was horrible, but it had loads of spare powergrid. ccp plz fix. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Cascade Imminent
87
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 12:57:00 -
[1555] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:http://i.imgur.com/gp4hxed.png 3 launchers instead of 2 not that I mind at all thats destroyer dps. not frigate!
http://i.imgur.com/IDjZAI2.png
[TEST Worm, New Setup 3] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50 Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II [empty med slot]
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
'Augmented' Hobgoblin x2 'Augmented' Hobgoblin x3
needs geno 1 or EE-602 +2% cpu not very viable this fit the drones also cost 15mil each on tq with t2 hobs its 328dps
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
690
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 15:30:00 -
[1556] - Quote
oh boy look at all these shitfits |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
206
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:39:00 -
[1557] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:oh boy look at all these shitfits
On par with your cats and comets with no points.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
690
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:39:00 -
[1558] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:oh boy look at all these shitfits On par with your cats and comets with no points.
keep on blobbing bro |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
354
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:42:00 -
[1559] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Templar Dane wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:oh boy look at all these shitfits On par with your cats and comets with no points. keep on blobbing bro Gee, as a vet you would think that you knew the definition of a blob. guess not |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 23:50:00 -
[1560] - Quote
i really dont see a single reason to take cruor over a sentinel, not to mention it will be x2/x3 more expensive. The pg nerf + only 3 mid/low slot lodout is making it a horrible ship to fit, get a decent tank , not to mention it dps. I Maybe would fly it if he will get an additional mid or low slot, plus maybe bit more PG.
Atm i will take 30 km neut range of sentinel any day over cuor (with 3 neuts you are going to cap dry a frigate target in 1/2 cycles, shuting down its prop mod = better speed reduce than the cruors single web) + i have t2 resists , a bonused td , less dps but i have an abiliti to have 4 ecm drones in my bay . And alot of isk saved |
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Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13504
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 01:05:00 -
[1561] - Quote
Buckethead bot wrote:i really dont see a single reason to take cruor over a sentinel, not to mention it will be x2/x3 more expensive. The pg nerf + only 3 mid/low slot lodout is making it a horrible ship to fit, get a decent tank , not to mention it dps. I Maybe would fly it if he will get an additional mid or low slot, plus maybe bit more PG.
Atm i will take 30 km neut range of sentinel any day over cuor (with 3 neuts you are going to cap dry a frigate target in 1/2 cycles, shuting down its prop mod = better speed reduce than the cruors single web) + i have t2 resists , a bonused td , less dps but i have an abiliti to have 4 ecm drones in my bay . And alot of isk saved
Yeah, the proposed web bonus on the Cruor only 'helps' it get 'close' (AKA 13-11km) to use shorter ranged neuts, which is a fancy way of saying that the Cruor has to use more slots, put itself in greater danger, and for what? Either marginally higher DPS or almost no DPS and marginally better neuting... but not enough to make it worth being close ranged.
I think it is odd that the Cruor gets a lot of stats that make it look just like a tackle frigate, like decently low sig (nothing to truly write home about, but it's not too shabby), the BEST lock time of a combat frigate (953 with max skills, compared to 775 of Kestrel or 1100 of Taranis) 4/3/3 utility high slot setup, low tank, and ship bonuses to tackle module -webs for the Blood Raiders- but it lacks two things to fulfill this role (besides being expensive):
Agility/Speed. Cruor lacks a lot of speed, and a bit of agility. If you'd just hand it 375m/s base speed (Fed Navy Comet) then the Daredevil and Dram would be faster as well as more agile, but the Cruor would have 20km web to abuse and utility neuts. To improve the agility, I would adjust the mass/inertia modifiers to make it so that plates don't weigh it a whole lot [GIVE IT BACK THE POWERGRID!] to make plate and active tank both viable choices with clear advantages.
Other good changes would involve buffing scan resolution so it locks more like a Taranis (the slowest locking inty in game). It's also nearly impossible to shoot drones without using metastasis rigs on Gatling Pulse if you don't swap your web onto the drone once your MWD is off so perhaps a role bonus to tracking would help it here. Or better drones (15mb/25m3 kinda deal)
Not saying that these suggestions are THE BEST EVAR GUYZ... but it makes sense that the Cruor would be a tackle frigate. I mean, Blood Raiders need fast tacklers too, right?
As for use as a solopwnmobile - buffing speed/agility makes it easier to use against potential kiters, and more tracking/drone power helps a little bit, too. Not a whole lot in that direction. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 03:45:00 -
[1562] - Quote
Sheimi Madaveda wrote:
Yeah, the proposed web bonus on the Cruor only 'helps' it get 'close' (AKA 13-11km) to use shorter ranged neuts, which is a fancy way of saying that the Cruor has to use more slots, put itself in greater danger, and for what? Either marginally higher DPS or almost no DPS and marginally better neuting... but not enough to make it worth being close ranged.
I think it is odd that the Cruor gets a lot of stats that make it look just like a tackle frigate, like decently low sig (nothing to truly write home about, but it's not too shabby), the BEST lock time of a combat frigate (953 with max skills, compared to 775 of Kestrel or 1100 of Taranis) 4/3/3 utility high slot setup, low tank, and ship bonuses to tackle module -webs for the Blood Raiders- but it lacks two things to fulfill this role (besides being expensive):
Agility/Speed. Cruor lacks a lot of speed, and a bit of agility. If you'd just hand it 375m/s base speed (Fed Navy Comet) then the Daredevil and Dram would be faster as well as more agile, but the Cruor would have 20km web to abuse and utility neuts. To improve the agility, I would adjust the mass/inertia modifiers to make it so that plates don't weigh it a whole lot [GIVE IT BACK THE POWERGRID!] to make plate and active tank both viable choices with clear advantages.
Other good changes would involve buffing scan resolution so it locks more like a Taranis (the slowest locking inty in game). It's also nearly impossible to shoot drones without using metastasis rigs on Gatling Pulse if you don't swap your web onto the drone once your MWD is off so perhaps a role bonus to tracking would help it here. Or better drones (15mb/25m3 kinda deal)
Not saying that these suggestions are THE BEST EVAR GUYZ... but it makes sense that the Cruor would be a tackle frigate. I mean, Blood Raiders need fast tacklers too, right?
As for use as a solopwnmobile - buffing speed/agility makes it easier to use against potential kiters, and more tracking/drone power helps a little bit, too. Not a whole lot in that direction.
It it was beefy and could rely on nos to power a dual rep setup, I could see it doing well as a solo ship.
Double the neut/nos bonus and remove a high to a low, and THEN there's some things you can do with it. PG won't be as much of an issue if you only have one nos/neut to fit.
edit
It wouldn't be completely overpowered with the suggestions I made. The cap would be extremely fragile, and the dps wouldn't be stellar. Things like asb ships with capless weapons would give it pretty big problems. |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13504
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 04:23:00 -
[1563] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote: It it was beefy and could rely on nos to power a dual rep setup, I could see it doing well as a solo ship.
Double the neut/nos bonus and remove a high to a low, and THEN there's some things you can do with it. PG won't be as much of an issue if you only have one nos/neut to fit.
edit
It wouldn't be completely overpowered with the suggestions I made. The cap would be extremely fragile, and the dps wouldn't be stellar. Things like asb ships with capless weapons would give it pretty big problems.
Hmmm, I think I like that sort of change a lot. I have always been wanting that fourth low slot, and if you look at that change for pure neut style Cruor, it makes the ship nearly self sufficient as the Nos provides enough cap to run the neuts for a very long time, while lending it a greater tank. For solo Cruor, the nos would hit like a neut... Not particularly stellar but tbh the fact that it gives you capacitor back makes it all worthwhile. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
355
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:25:00 -
[1564] - Quote
Sheimi Madaveda wrote:Templar Dane wrote: It it was beefy and could rely on nos to power a dual rep setup, I could see it doing well as a solo ship.
Double the neut/nos bonus and remove a high to a low, and THEN there's some things you can do with it. PG won't be as much of an issue if you only have one nos/neut to fit.
edit
It wouldn't be completely overpowered with the suggestions I made. The cap would be extremely fragile, and the dps wouldn't be stellar. Things like asb ships with capless weapons would give it pretty big problems.
Hmmm, I think I like that sort of change a lot. I have always been wanting that fourth low slot, and if you look at that change for pure neut style Cruor, it makes the ship nearly self sufficient as the Nos provides enough cap to run the neuts for a very long time, while lending it a greater tank. For solo Cruor, the nos would hit like a neut... Not particularly stellar but tbh the fact that it gives you capacitor back makes it all worthwhile. the pure neut cruor works fine as is. the new cruor with pure neut wont neut anything because it doesnt have 90% webs. simple.
you would have to have 2 nos's to run the 2 neuts the ab the scram the web 1 nos wouldnt do it. so it wouldnt be a pure neut cruor at all. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Cascade Imminent
89
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:34:00 -
[1565] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote: the pure neut cruor works fine as is. the new cruor with pure neut wont neut anything because it doesnt have 90% webs. simple.
you would have to have 2 nos's to run the 2 neuts the ab the scram the web 1 nos wouldnt do it. so it wouldnt be a pure neut cruor at all.
the idea is to increase the neut/nos bonus to compensate for the moved high which would give it a 50% per lvl bonus but even with that change and with its old power grid back I can't see the cruor match up to the other pirate frigates/sentinel in power just because its power is so very situational and it is mandatory to use A-type nos on it
I think it should absolutely get a 75% nos/neut range role bonus Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Draco Knight
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:21:00 -
[1566] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote: the pure neut cruor works fine as is. the new cruor with pure neut wont neut anything because it doesnt have 90% webs. simple.
you would have to have 2 nos's to run the 2 neuts the ab the scram the web 1 nos wouldnt do it. so it wouldnt be a pure neut cruor at all.
the idea is to increase the neut/nos bonus to compensate for the moved high which would give it a 50% per lvl bonus but even with that change and with its old power grid back I can't see the cruor match up to the other pirate frigates/sentinel in power just because its power is so very situational and it is mandatory to use A-type nos on it I think it should absolutely get a 75% nos/neut range role bonus
To keep it distinct from the curse and more so, true to the blood raider line and the new nos buff, it could just be a range bonus on nos range and effectiveness.
60% range per level on cruor 20% range per level on ashimmu No range bonus on bhaalgorn, since heavy nos range is fine.
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
4236
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 13:51:00 -
[1567] - Quote
Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. @ccp_rise |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
700
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 14:02:00 -
[1568] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think.
I think just drop the webbing thing and drop the midslots down to 2, give it tank bonus and more lows. that makes a much more generally usable ship. 3 lows and no tank bonus is extremely limiting. add the ridiculously powerful web bonus, and you're primary forever in all frig gangs ever. less 'glass cannon', more versatile. I think lasers and neuts/nos is enough flavour for one line of ships, they don't need the web thing as well. |
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 14:23:00 -
[1569] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think.
Cruor realy needed it, now you can have a fair combination of tank/dmg while still utilizing cruor bonuses. Maybe its not perfect but definietly flyable
if only the blood riders implant setup gave you neuting range not speed buff
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
815
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:12:00 -
[1570] - Quote
mm.. pirate racial implants bonuses.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1171
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:32:00 -
[1571] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Its not entierly related, but I feel like there are two ways of considering drones for the game balance team.
- On one side, ships with drone bays have a precisely crafted drone bay with precise volumes (see my quote above to illustrate how the drone bay was 10m3 - an odd number already- to 5m3 -even odder-). So on this side things looks cool and balanced. Yes its odd to see a ship with less than five drones, but on the other hand this one or two extra drone make a noticeable impact.
- On the other side, you have ships (to quote a few : Moa, Garmur, Naga... even Eagle when compared to other HACs), with ZERO drone bay. Its straight, definitive... and bad?
Would these ships be so unbalanced with, say, 10/15m3 of brandwidth? Especially when other ships in their very same class have double or triple the amount of brandwidth without even being drone boats. I'd love to see more small drone bays on ships. Especially now that the drone gameplay and the choice it implies in terms of drone race, is getting better.
Any thoughts on that? Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Cascade Imminent
89
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:39:00 -
[1572] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think.
This is very much a step in the right direction thank you Having flown the cruor a lot on the test server, I have to say that this will not be enough however, to bring it up to par with the other four it needs to have its drawback softened a bit. The most major drawback is the fact that it can be kited out of nos/neut range very easily, to alleviate that I suggest increasing the range on faction nos and neuts, overheated t2 scrams are currently the same range as a-type nos so even if you fit for bling you will still be kited halve the time by a ship fit much cheaper. Its dps is also so very low that I don't think the removal of the one light drone was necessary, I have lost to buffer fit ships simply because I could not kill them before I ran out of cap even though they where out of cap too
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2653
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:41:00 -
[1573] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think.
i somehow don't see how the cruor might compete with the sentinel. They are both very different ships. Even if you would increase the neut/nos range of the cruor it wouldn't change much on the fact that they are very different. Its a bit like comparing dragoon with a sentinel, its a bit closer but still very different. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
816
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:45:00 -
[1574] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. This is very much a step in the right direction thank you Having flown the cruor a lot on the test server, I have to say that this will not be enough however, to bring it up to par with the other four it needs to have its drawback softened a bit. The most major drawback is the fact that it can be kited out of nos/neut range very easily, to alleviate that I suggest increasing the range on faction nos and neuts, overheated t2 scrams are currently the same range as a-type nos so even if you fit for bling you will still be kited halve the time by a ship fit much cheaper. Its dps is also so very low that I don't think the removal of the one light drone was necessary, I have lost to buffer fit ships simply because I could not kill them before I ran out of cap even though they where out of cap too
perhaps the module tiercide could help with this .. by having a longer range role meta and perhaps it OH bonus would be range also.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
700
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:45:00 -
[1575] - Quote
Altrue wrote:CCP Rise wrote: We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Its not entierly related, but I feel like there are two ways of considering drones for the game balance team.
- On one side, ships with drone bays have a precisely crafted drone bay with precise volumes (see my quote above to illustrate how the drone bay was 10m3 - an odd number already- to 5m3 -even odder-). So on this side things looks cool and balanced. Yes its odd to see a ship with less than five drones, but on the other hand this one or two extra drone make a noticeable impact.
- On the other side, you have ships (to quote a few : Moa, Garmur, Naga... even Eagle when compared to other HACs), with ZERO drone bay. Its straight, definitive... and bad?
Would these ships be so unbalanced with, say, 10/15m3 of brandwidth? Especially when other ships in their very same class have double or triple the amount of brandwidth without even being drone boats. I'd love to see more small drone bays on ships. Especially now that the drone gameplay and the choice it implies in terms of drone race, is getting better.
Any thoughts on that?
there's also the issue that not all slots are equal. +1 midslot on a frigate is absolutely huge, while +1 utility high (assuming you don't have crazy neut bonuses) is no big deal. |
RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
37
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:07:00 -
[1576] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think.
Being able to control range is the one thing that the Cruor has going for it (-90% web)... and now you plan to get rid of its best attribute!? (web range bonus = hyena... donotwant for cruor) |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
702
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:25:00 -
[1577] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. Being able to control range is the one thing that the Cruor has going for it (-90% web)... and now you plan to get rid of its best attribute!? (web range bonus = hyena... donotwant for cruor)
you also can control range by capping out your target |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
365
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:43:00 -
[1578] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. thank you so much for listening. these improvements are really needed. now i have a few more suggestions.
Drones on ships just arnt they answer to everything, even if you take off the 1 drone and bump up the role damage bonus to 150% it still wont even do half the dps a daredevil does, or the new worm. and i know more people would rather have that extra turret dps than having a drone that provides only an extra 25% dps to the cruor that can be destroyed. (25% damage increase on the cruor with 1 drone, think about that)
the same kind of goes for the ashimmu, blood has just to much to do. neut/nos the target, do dps, gotta active tank (ashimmu only now, maybe the new cruor) put drones one the target, chase down targets with your web and hope you have enough cap to run your tank. playing around in EFT and sinking 800 mil into the new ashimmu it still only had mediocre dps, tank, (huge speed buff thank you) that most other pirate cruiser get by fitting a t2 tank. I know this is for the cruiser thread but you will see it one time or another no point in wasting posts.
|
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
211
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:53:00 -
[1579] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. I think just drop the webbing thing and drop the midslots down to 2, give it tank bonus and more lows. that makes a much more generally usable ship. 3 lows and no tank bonus is extremely limiting. add the ridiculously powerful web bonus, and you're primary forever in all frig gangs ever. less 'glass cannon', more versatile. I think lasers and neuts/nos is enough flavour for one line of ships, they don't need the web thing as well.
Yeah, prop mod and web makes so much sense. It's not like anybody would ever want to solo in a pirate frigate.
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
702
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:05:00 -
[1580] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. I think just drop the webbing thing and drop the midslots down to 2, give it tank bonus and more lows. that makes a much more generally usable ship. 3 lows and no tank bonus is extremely limiting. add the ridiculously powerful web bonus, and you're primary forever in all frig gangs ever. less 'glass cannon', more versatile. I think lasers and neuts/nos is enough flavour for one line of ships, they don't need the web thing as well. Yeah, prop mod and web makes so much sense. It's not like anybody would ever want to solo in a pirate frigate.
are you being terrible again |
|
Draco Knight
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:10:00 -
[1581] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think.
Noone but you, is forcing the cruor to compete with the sentinel.
You changed how nos works(old nos) on BR ships, you also buffed nos amount. You/I want to fit nos, but it is useless, when we dont live to apply it. Giving the ship a nos range bonus only, would make us able to at least put pressure on targets cap within web and point range.
The additional low and pg/cpu changes are nice, but just scrap the drone bay altogether and add nos range.
I do not wish to/want to fit neuts on my cruor!!! I do that on my sentinel and as it stands even after this latest "buff", the sentinel is still waaay better in every way, since it caps out any frigate within 30km in 2 cycles and have TD for bigger targets. Cruor remains pointless.
I dream of a nos range bonus too for the ashimmu. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
702
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:17:00 -
[1582] - Quote
Draco Knight wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. Noone but you, is forcing the cruor to compete with the sentinel. You changed how nos works(old nos) on BR ships, you also buffed nos amount. You/I want to fit nos, but it is useless, when we dont live to apply it. Giving the ship a nos range bonus only, would make us able to at least put pressure on targets cap within web and point range. The additional low and pg/cpu changes are nice, but just scrap the drone bay altogether and add nos range. I do not wish to/want to fit neuts on my cruor!!! I do that on my sentinel and as it stands even after this latest "buff", the sentinel is still waaay better in every way, since it caps out any frigate within 30km in 2 cycles and have TD for bigger targets. Cruor remains pointless. I dream of a nos range bonus too for the ashimmu.
could nerf sentinel instead |
Draco Knight
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:22:00 -
[1583] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote: could nerf sentinel instead
Nice bait, not taking it... |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
211
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 21:07:00 -
[1584] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Templar Dane wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. I think just drop the webbing thing and drop the midslots down to 2, give it tank bonus and more lows. that makes a much more generally usable ship. 3 lows and no tank bonus is extremely limiting. add the ridiculously powerful web bonus, and you're primary forever in all frig gangs ever. less 'glass cannon', more versatile. I think lasers and neuts/nos is enough flavour for one line of ships, they don't need the web thing as well. Yeah, prop mod and web makes so much sense. It's not like anybody would ever want to solo in a pirate frigate. are you being terrible again
Yes well it's not like it has 500 dps and can get away with not fitting a point.
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
245
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 00:03:00 -
[1585] - Quote
Make up some rp **** for the cruor so it can get a double range bonus for its guns (is not in line, but the bhaal wasnt either for years), making it a lower dps and slower slicer with a web range bonus and powerfull anti tackle neuts (beef its cap up so it can actually run mwd/point/guns/web for a bit).
Not ideal, but makes it usefull. There just isnt anything you can do about the cruor, it is crap design wise since the blood raider stuff really doesnt fit frigates at all.
Or give it a neut and gun range bonus, making it a weaker malice( lowering the pay to win aspect of the at). |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
365
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 00:59:00 -
[1586] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Make up some rp **** for the cruor so it can get a double range bonus for its guns (is not in line, but the bhaal wasnt either for years), making it a lower dps and slower slicer with a web range bonus and powerfull anti tackle neuts (beef its cap up so it can actually run mwd/point/guns/web for a bit).
Not ideal, but makes it usefull. There just isnt anything you can do about the cruor, it is crap design wise since the blood raider stuff really doesnt fit frigates at all.
Or give it a neut and gun range bonus, making it a weaker malice( lowering the pay to win aspect of the at). ccp's trend as of recent years is to nerf all amarr dps and give them longer range. which is stupid. the cruor does not need that amarr trait. neut range is the bonus they should go with.
amarr used to be masters of dps and range, now they are range that tickles you. |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
705
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 03:22:00 -
[1587] - Quote
Any chance pirate hulls can get the bump up to 400 calibration Navy ships got? Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Cascade Imminent
89
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 05:09:00 -
[1588] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Make up some rp **** for the cruor so it can get a double range bonus for its guns (is not in line, but the bhaal wasnt either for years), making it a lower dps and slower slicer with a web range bonus and powerfull anti tackle neuts (beef its cap up so it can actually run mwd/point/guns/web for a bit).
Not ideal, but makes it usefull. There just isnt anything you can do about the cruor, it is crap design wise since the blood raider stuff really doesnt fit frigates at all.
Or give it a neut and gun range bonus, making it a weaker malice( lowering the pay to win aspect of the at).
this is what I wanted the cruor to be initially but people said it would be op *shrug*
@Rise: since you are so obsessed to keep the cruors bonuses in line with the other blood raider ships how come the dramiel is allowed to keep its bonuses ? cause it works? no that can't be it the 90% web on the cruor worked better.
Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
107
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 07:43:00 -
[1589] - Quote
Well better late than never, something had to give on the Cruor, and while I'm not completely satisfied with the change, I guess beggars can't be choosers (it's better than what was initially proposed.) At least everyone going blue in the face trying to get it looked at again, weren't doing it for nothing. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2143
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 09:00:00 -
[1590] - Quote
Does this mean you're giving up on locking yourself into arbitrary slot numbers? Because that would be great.
Could you now go and give the punisher this? Because it effectively has one slot less than other t1 frigates.. Utility highs are worth about 1/3rd of a normal slot on a frigate.
(Just want to close though by saying I CAN FLY MY CRUOR IN AN UNIRONIC WAY NOW! =D )
You don't often get me being happy about something, well done >_> BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
185
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 09:28:00 -
[1591] - Quote
Altrue wrote:CCP Rise wrote: We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Its not entierly related, but I feel like there are two ways of considering drones for the game balance team.
- On one side, ships with drone bays have a precisely crafted drone bay with precise volumes (see my quote above to illustrate how the drone bay was 10m3 - an odd number already- to 5m3 -even odder-). So on this side things looks cool and balanced. Yes its odd to see a ship with less than five drones, but on the other hand this one or two extra drone make a noticeable impact.
- On the other side, you have ships (to quote a few : Garmur, Naga... even Eagle when compared to other HACs), with ZERO drone bay. Its straight, definitive... and bad?
Would these ships be so unbalanced with, say, 10/15m3 of brandwidth? Especially when other ships in their very same class have double or triple the amount of brandwidth without even being drone boats. I'd love to see more small drone bays on ships. Especially now that the drone gameplay and the choice it implies in terms of drone race, is getting better.
Any thoughts on that?
the zero drone bay is a way to introduce some weakness against smaller ships in case of the naga the inability to kill tackle once it gets close. to be honest i like it that way, because it allows for teamplay. ships with drone bays need less fitting effort to be "tackle safe" during teiricide a lot of cruisers and bigger ships got their drone bays pimped or even gained drone bays. didn't like that. i guess their were thought of as small nudges to put balance in place. IMHO it would get super boring if every ship above cruiser size had a drone bay. some ships should just be more vulnerable to small ships than others.
|
Naomi Anthar
335
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:03:00 -
[1592] - Quote
Thanks for this ... i can see cruor being really super powerful ship, especially with bling in a-type noses and a-type reps.
and don't listen to this madman Truousedeagle ... guy hates cruor for no reason.
I mean i would sell all my cruors asap at buy order price - if they would announce 2 meds cruor. I'm dead serious i would grab all money i can get for those ships asap, before price would go to level of maybe navy frigs at best.
|
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1286
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:50:00 -
[1593] - Quote
These changes on all the pirate frigates through battleships look great. Balanced yet unique an interesting. Really great work. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
VanHellin Krovchenko
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 14:40:00 -
[1594] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
May I suggest:
"Role bonus to Energy Vampires to operate in Continuous Capacitor Replenishment mode." - something along those lines...
Better than current, and way better than the "infinite cap drain" as previously mentioned in another post. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
711
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 14:55:00 -
[1595] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Does this mean you're giving up on locking yourself into arbitrary slot numbers? Because that would be great.
Could you now go and give the punisher this? Because it effectively has one slot less than other t1 frigates.. Utility highs are worth about 1/3rd of a normal slot on a frigate.
(Just want to close though by saying I CAN FLY MY CRUOR IN AN UNIRONIC WAY NOW! =D )
You don't often get me being happy about something, well done >_>
there's also the issue of ships with double bonuses for no reason, and varying numbers of weapon hardpoints, and dronebays as well. so yeah, equal slot numbers is pretty much never a good way to balance if these other things are around. |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13506
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 22:56:00 -
[1596] - Quote
Just tried the Cruor on Sisi, I feel like it's a dedicated fast frigate hunter in a few ways. 26km heated unlinked web and greater speed makes slingshotting extremely easy, and then you can slap a scram onto them in short order. You can still pulse your MWD but they won't be able to, solving the issue of range dictation. Capacitor is strong enough with Nos to support dual rep, so you will tank kiter DPS extremely well.
What isn't super fast and kitey and would beat you into the floor can be kept at bay because... 20km web...
The Cruor isn't particularly strong yet (tracking is still crap!) but it at least doesn't die to random kiters if you aren't willing to shell out ISK for a FN web. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
107
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 08:17:00 -
[1597] - Quote
Sheimi Madaveda wrote:Just tried the Cruor on Sisi, I feel like it's a dedicated fast frigate hunter in a few ways. 26km heated unlinked web and greater speed makes slingshotting extremely easy, and then you can slap a scram onto them in short order. You can still pulse your MWD but they won't be able to, solving the issue of range dictation. Capacitor is strong enough with Nos to support dual rep, so you will tank kiter DPS extremely well.
What isn't super fast and kitey and would beat you into the floor can be kept at bay because... 20km web...
The Cruor isn't particularly strong yet (tracking is still crap!) but it at least doesn't die to random kiters if you aren't willing to shell out ISK for a FN web.
Soooo basically what you are saying is, it's only good against tankless kiters (which with half a brain are going to avoid you like the plague anyway,) otherwise it should just avoid everything else... sounds like it's going to be in a good place |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13506
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 08:52:00 -
[1598] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:Soooo basically what you are saying is, it's only good against tankless kiters (which with half a brain are going to avoid you like the plague anyway,) otherwise it should just avoid everything else... sounds like it's going to be in a good place
First off, what you say is true of basically every shiny ship ever manufactured. It is why t2 frigs have a harder time finding fights in low sec compared to t1 frigs.
Additionally, this is what I said:
Sheimi Madaveda wrote: The Cruor isn't particularly strong yet but it at least doesn't die to random kiters.
I was stupid, and wrong. My faith was put to the test by what is now a wreck of a Daredevil. Also, a brainy Garmur pilot gave me a run for my money. Man, those Garmur pilots before that one were super bad. Like... you don't even want to know.
This was the fit I used:
[Cruor, Grudge] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Small Armor Repairer II Adaptive Nano Plating II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Focused Pulse Laser II Small Focused Pulse Laser II Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
After testing it a bit further, I'd like to change a few things -
It DOES work against brawlers and is quite potent. 162 DPS tank OH'ing both t2 reps with no links or fanciness. I managed to kill a Daredevil and only barely dipped into structure until he was capped out.
I'd pimp it with a-type nos for the range since you can't really dictate it inside of scram range vs many brawlers, then deadspace reps for OH and better tank.
Anci rep is a good choice if you're poor.
Obviously, enemies like Hawk present a problem. If you fight an enemy with buffer tank, ab/web/scram + capless damage, you tend to just cap it out and warp off before it kills you. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
107
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 09:00:00 -
[1599] - Quote
Well that is good to hear I suppose, I do have faith that with the recent changes it will do ok, but judging from your initial test descriptions I had lost some of that faith. So, faith.... somewhat restord(ish.) |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
247
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 11:17:00 -
[1600] - Quote
Id like to call for now that the succubus is going to be retardedly broken, both in fleet roles with a 10mn fit as well as a solo roamer with a 1mn ab. |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
711
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 11:49:00 -
[1601] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Id like to call for now that the succubus is going to be retardedly broken, both in fleet roles with a 10mn fit as well as a solo roamer with a 1mn ab.
1mn fit is trash unless fighting missiles |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
247
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 11:58:00 -
[1602] - Quote
1mn is absurdly strong as a solo ship (at least in low/high), you fly over 2.3km/s with a b type ab and a poly/zors. Its tanky enough to permatank even the garmur and has the ability to gtfo vs almost everything else. You can kill by scram kiting torm style, or orbiting really close and making use of that tracking bonus, all paired with high dps (over 300 with heat) and a decent tank.
Its like the dram of old with way more dps and dps at range (scorch op) and even better gtfo ability. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
599
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 12:11:00 -
[1603] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:1mn is absurdly strong as a solo ship (at least in low/high), you fly over 2.3km/s with a b type ab and a poly/zors. Its tanky enough to permatank even the garmur and has the ability to gtfo vs almost everything else. You can kill by scram kiting torm style, or orbiting really close and making use of that tracking bonus, all paired with high dps (over 300 with heat) and a decent tank.
Its like the dram of old with way more dps and dps at range (scorch op) and even better gtfo ability.
Totally ignoring that even with tracking bonus and double metastasis adjusters, using gatling pulses even, you got a hard time applying any damage while using the orbit button. That atleast was my experience at close ranges, scorch and orbit at some 8km is acceptable though.
For the tanking, 2 MASBs, 1mn and a scrambler already netted range dictation against singleweb-scramfits. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
711
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 12:16:00 -
[1604] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:1mn is absurdly strong as a solo ship (at least in low/high), you fly over 2.3km/s with a b type ab and a poly/zors. Its tanky enough to permatank even the garmur and has the ability to gtfo vs almost everything else. You can kill by scram kiting torm style, or orbiting really close and making use of that tracking bonus, all paired with high dps (over 300 with heat) and a decent tank.
Its like the dram of old with way more dps and dps at range (scorch op) and even better gtfo ability.
I think an AB dram is better. much more flexibility. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
384
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 15:35:00 -
[1605] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:1mn is absurdly strong as a solo ship (at least in low/high), you fly over 2.3km/s with a b type ab and a poly/zors. Its tanky enough to permatank even the garmur and has the ability to gtfo vs almost everything else. You can kill by scram kiting torm style, or orbiting really close and making use of that tracking bonus, all paired with high dps (over 300 with heat) and a decent tank.
Its like the dram of old with way more dps and dps at range (scorch op) and even better gtfo ability. I think an AB dram is better. much more flexibility. yup, but succubus with the proper fits is just as fast now. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
331
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 17:24:00 -
[1606] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. One drone is sorta not worth the effort of moving the mouse. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, please give us an off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals. |
Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1096
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 19:21:00 -
[1607] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. One drone is sorta not worth the effort of moving the mouse. 20 extra DPS argues that point I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
elitatwo
Congregatio
222
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 19:29:00 -
[1608] - Quote
Aww Liam, you should know bettter..
While your boat is disabled from the two Nosferatus you have other things to worry about than a drone. signature |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2151
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 20:47:00 -
[1609] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:1mn is absurdly strong as a solo ship (at least in low/high), you fly over 2.3km/s with a b type ab and a poly/zors. Its tanky enough to permatank even the garmur and has the ability to gtfo vs almost everything else. You can kill by scram kiting torm style, or orbiting really close and making use of that tracking bonus, all paired with high dps (over 300 with heat) and a decent tank.
Its like the dram of old with way more dps and dps at range (scorch op) and even better gtfo ability. I think an AB dram is better. much more flexibility. yup, but succubus with the proper fits is just as fast now.
Its faster, but it doesn't have great tracking (even with the bonus its about the same as unbonused blasters), it doesn't have great range and it doesn't have great dps..
Its basically a faster dramiel that is worse at everything else. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
384
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 21:14:00 -
[1610] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:1mn is absurdly strong as a solo ship (at least in low/high), you fly over 2.3km/s with a b type ab and a poly/zors. Its tanky enough to permatank even the garmur and has the ability to gtfo vs almost everything else. You can kill by scram kiting torm style, or orbiting really close and making use of that tracking bonus, all paired with high dps (over 300 with heat) and a decent tank.
Its like the dram of old with way more dps and dps at range (scorch op) and even better gtfo ability. I think an AB dram is better. much more flexibility. yup, but succubus with the proper fits is just as fast now. Its faster, but it doesn't have great tracking (even with the bonus its about the same as unbonused blasters), it doesn't have great range and it doesn't have great dps.. Its basically a faster dramiel that is worse at everything else. well for people who value whoring on mails and being completely escapable this ship will be the new hotness |
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
219
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 07:18:00 -
[1611] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:1mn is absurdly strong as a solo ship (at least in low/high), you fly over 2.3km/s with a b type ab and a poly/zors. Its tanky enough to permatank even the garmur and has the ability to gtfo vs almost everything else. You can kill by scram kiting torm style, or orbiting really close and making use of that tracking bonus, all paired with high dps (over 300 with heat) and a decent tank.
Its like the dram of old with way more dps and dps at range (scorch op) and even better gtfo ability. I think an AB dram is better. much more flexibility. yup, but succubus with the proper fits is just as fast now. Its faster, but it doesn't have great tracking (even with the bonus its about the same as unbonused blasters), it doesn't have great range and it doesn't have great dps.. Its basically a faster dramiel that is worse at everything else. well for people who value whoring on mails and being completely escapable this ship will be the new hotness
Nah, I have a feeling the mordu's ships will be for them.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
219
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 07:39:00 -
[1612] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think. i somehow don't see how the cruor might compete with the sentinel. They are both very different ships. Even if you would increase the neut/nos range of the cruor it wouldn't change much on the fact that they are very different. Its a bit like comparing dragoon with a sentinel, its a bit closer but still very different.
Well, right now you can put two lasers on a sentinel and dual rep injected, full tackle........with 4 mids, better resists, neut range......
I've done it before, it's not great but is better than the current cruor in many ways.
You can solo in a sentinel and you can do fleets because you can be at ranges where you aren't always in immediate danger. The cruor is stuck doing solo or extremely small gangs because in order for it to apply dps and it's neuts it is well inside scram range and everyone's guns.
And as I mentioned, it IS possible to brawl with a sentinel. During the reign of the dramiel I had a dual rep sentinel that ate quite a few of them. It only had one neut and two guns because it needed all the dps it coild get (especially during a drone war).....and with those two guns it was like 120 dps with scorch and that's about as much as the cruor does with conflag.
Heck, a triple neut tristan has the same slot layout (lows and mids) and nearly the same neuting power, as well as a weapon system that operates well past anything the cruor can do, while doing pretty much the same dps.........it just doesn't have the web.
So yes, the sentinel steps on the cruor's toes in many ways.
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Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13507
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 09:33:00 -
[1613] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:
Well, right now you can put two lasers on a sentinel and dual rep injected, full tackle........with 4 mids, better resists, neut range......
I've done it before, it's not great but is better than the current cruor in many ways.
Heck, a triple neut tristan has the same slot layout (lows and mids) and nearly the same neuting power, as well as a weapon system that operates well past anything the cruor can do, while doing pretty much the same dps.........it just doesn't have the web.
So yes, the sentinel steps on the cruor's toes in many ways.
Yeah, even just looking at it in EFT - the numbers are essentially same for the active tank (assuming 2x ANP II rigs on Sent), but the Cruor gets 60% more buffer or something to play with the reps a bit better. 20km web isn't as kewl as the Sentinel Neut range, sadly.
It looks like there just isn't any room to make the Cruor a better support boat. At all. Even if it got a lot more tank, it would still get trumped by the Sentinel's ability to avoid damage. EDIT: It's not meant to outclass other support boats, anyways.
However, there is always a DPS stat that could use boosting, which would not conflict with the other E-war frigs. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Barune Darkor
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 20:04:00 -
[1614] - Quote
Would it be unbalanced to give the worm 5m3 more space in the drone bay so it could carry 3 different flights of drones? Especially with drone rebalance. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
226
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 01:03:00 -
[1615] - Quote
Barune Darkor wrote:Would it be unbalanced to give the worm 5m3 more space in the drone bay so it could carry 3 different flights of drones? Especially with drone rebalance.
And maybe 10km more targetting range? 37km is a little short for my taste. signature |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13507
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 01:27:00 -
[1616] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Barune Darkor wrote:Would it be unbalanced to give the worm 5m3 more space in the drone bay so it could carry 3 different flights of drones? Especially with drone rebalance. And maybe 10km more targetting range? 37km is a little short for my taste.
Your tastes aside, isn't it part Caldari to begin with? So shouldn't it inherent the lock range of Caldari ships, too? Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Syd Unknown
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 22:16:00 -
[1617] - Quote
The Cruor is still horrible
It has serious cap issues and serious cpu and powergrid issues. |
Miles Winter
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 05:02:00 -
[1618] - Quote
Found this thread after making my own regarding the Cruor here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4646551#post4646551
It seems I came to the same conclusion that a lot of other people here did. The Cruor, even in its new incarnation, is simply no good. Originally I was questioning whether my examination of the frigate was correct - but having seen this thread, I see that I'm not the only one who can't pin an actual effective role for it.
--
My recommendation: Give it a range boost on the Nos/Neuts and the energy weapons to 20-30km's so that the frigate can fly at a range the web bonus implies it's meant to fly at. Get rid of the drone bay, it really doesn't need it.
OR, make it an actual brawler. Toughen it up a lot, make it immune to scramblers disabling its MWD, add resistance to webs, get rid of the range bonus on the webs for some other bonus; make the Cruor something you really really don't want getting right on top of you. Whatever works and stays balanced. (It still doesn't need the dronebay for this. Please don't put a dronebay on it)
Basically the Cruor has no real defined purpose. Figure out what the frigate should/needs to do in a PVP situation, then go from there on your design and make it good at whatever its PVP niche is meant to be.
Suggested roles: Yarr it's a pirate ship, make it good at solo-PVP or small-gang warfare (I think the Cruor as a solo-PVPer and the Ashimmu as the small gangfighter would do swell for roles) Keep the theme of the Blood Raiders (and thematic vampire associations) alive, by making the Nosferatu the primary module to focus the rest of the ship around Give the Blood Raider ships more things in line with vampire mythology - regeneration, difficult to kill, stalkerish, weakness to garlic, up close brawling, insta-popping when warping close to the sun, etc. |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13509
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 05:43:00 -
[1619] - Quote
Miles Winter wrote:My recommendation:
Give it a range boost on the Nos/Neuts and the energy weapons to 20-30km's so that the frigate can fly at a range the web bonus implies it's meant to fly at. Get rid of the drone bay, it really doesn't need it.
OR, make it an actual brawler. Toughen it up a lot, make it immune to scramblers disabling its MWD, add resistance to webs, get rid of the range bonus on the webs for some other bonus; make the Cruor something you really really don't want getting right on top of you. Whatever works and stays balanced. (It still doesn't need the dronebay for this. Please don't put a dronebay on it)
Basically the Cruor has no real defined purpose. Figure out what the frigate should/needs to do in a PVP situation, then go from there on your design and make it good at whatever its PVP niche is meant to be.
Suggested roles: *Snip* Give the Blood Raider ships more things in line with vampire mythology - regeneration, difficult to kill, stalkerish, weakness to garlic, up close brawling, insta-popping when warping close to the sun, etc.
I agree with the focus on how Blood Raiders should feel to fly as and against entirely. Though I'd hate to lose to anyone that manages to get garlic launchers on their ship.
Considering that the kiting role on a Cruor would overlap far too much with other ships, I'm not springing for it. I'd just give it more speed before trying a web resistance bonus... but I like how you think :)
Drone bays should be pretty healthy in size for all Blood ships IMO as it is a way to split the damage in the ships up so they have at least a little bit even when fit for Capacitor Warfare, and it also deters high DPS turret fits from coming into play. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Syd Unknown
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 19:09:00 -
[1620] - Quote
Quote:Basically the Cruor has no real defined purpose. Figure out what the frigate should/needs to do in a PVP situation, then go from there on your design and make it good at whatever its PVP niche is meant to be.
The Cruor always had a purpose: Useless..
Any other Faction Frigate will make toast of it in its current form. All they need to do is stay out of neut range and the cruor is toast. The web range bonus is only nice in a gang, and if you fly in a gang you are better off bringing a hyena.
The Cruor has **** dps. Capacitor, CPU and Powergrid are horrible. And the only way to fit it decent is full faction fit.
FIX the Cruor please..
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Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
114
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Posted - 2014.05.29 19:40:00 -
[1621] - Quote
As much as I agree with everyone's sentiments on get this thing fixed more than band-aided I have serious doubts as to whether or not that will ever happen, it will likely remain sub-par because the dev's are far too determined to keep the trash web bonus it has now. |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13509
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:43:00 -
[1622] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:As much as I agree with everyone's sentiments on get this thing fixed more than band-aided I have serious doubts as to whether or not that will ever happen, it will likely remain sub-par because the dev's are far too determined to keep the trash web bonus it has now.
Cruor =/= Daredevil.
You see, a Daredevil goes over 5.5km/s with its MWD overheated. Cruor goes 4km/s with nothing slowing it down, and ~3.3km/s with 400mm plate and armor rigs. On top of that, a Daredevil has a LOT more agility to use that speed to its advantage.
People are whining about being "unable to use cap warfare bonus" because "web isn't strong enough to close range" against AB/web/scram frigates, which is a hilarious joke if you ask me. At least you can USE that web now, and you dictate range against anything with a MWD instead of the other way around...
A-type nos reach to 10.2km, scrams hit to 11km heated, which means that your enemy would have to keep you at 10.5km for the entire duration of the fight to kill you, not counting that you will still have, say... 3000m/s speed vs their 500m/s before you get into web range, then scram range about a server tick later, meaning you will land right on top of them.
If they're MWD/web/scram, then they have small capacitor pools and will take quite a while to pull range, easily getting capped out in the time that would take.
I'm saying this from actually using the ship quite a bit - I was on Singularity and tested the new iteration against Daredevils, Crows, and random cruisers (would not recommend unless you have skirm+armor links, but you could solo one if you had those) you lose to the Worm hardcore, but you can just choose not to fight one. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
603
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:50:00 -
[1623] - Quote
Think the strong downside for the cruor lies with the range for energy neutralizers. The bottleneck imo is the 6.6km range on small neuts, which also mean that you can't operate in scorch-optimal (which would be around max scramrange - a little). As a result, you'll get kited hard by anything that can sit in scram - but outside neutrange. The cruor would dramatically benefit from neutrange covering all the way out to 9km, with a real neut instead of a weak NOS band aid (they also cost around 20mil each).
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13509
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Posted - 2014.05.29 23:37:00 -
[1624] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Think the strong downside for the cruor lies with the range for energy neutralizers. The bottleneck imo is the 6.6km range on small neuts, which also mean that you can't operate in scorch-optimal (which would be around max scramrange - a little). As a result, you'll get kited hard by anything that can sit in scram - but outside neutrange. The cruor would dramatically benefit from neutrange covering all the way out to 9km, with a real neut instead of a weak NOS band aid (they also cost around 20mil each).
2x small nos on a Cruor is enough to run a dual rep setup which will be more mobile, have greater tank in almost every situation (tested vs Daredevil) and have more engagement range than a fit with neuts. Simply put, fitting neuts for any reason besides buffer neut fit is probably a bad idea. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Syd Unknown
2
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Posted - 2014.05.30 22:55:00 -
[1625] - Quote
Sheimi Madaveda wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Think the strong downside for the cruor lies with the range for energy neutralizers. The bottleneck imo is the 6.6km range on small neuts, which also mean that you can't operate in scorch-optimal (which would be around max scramrange - a little). As a result, you'll get kited hard by anything that can sit in scram - but outside neutrange. The cruor would dramatically benefit from neutrange covering all the way out to 9km, with a real neut instead of a weak NOS band aid (they also cost around 20mil each).
2x small nos on a Cruor is enough to run a dual rep setup which will be more mobile, have greater tank in almost every situation (tested vs Daredevil) and have more engagement range than a fit with neuts. Simply put, fitting neuts for any reason besides buffer neut fit is probably a bad idea.
Yes and a dual rep cruor can rep about 160dps/s wich is pathetic because an incursus can do the same. A daredevil has 90% webs and will do over 300 dps to that cruor and **** it. Cruor was not meant to be an active repper. The only way to make a viable cruor fit is buffer tanked with 1 nos and 1 neut, and that is almost impossible to fit because of cpu and powergrid. And even if you manage to fit that armor plate using faction modules then you STILL do **** dps.
Cruors will still be rarely seen after Kronos because they are still terribad.
It needs a range bonus for neuts or a range and damage bonus for guns |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13509
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Posted - 2014.05.30 23:34:00 -
[1626] - Quote
Syd Unknown wrote: Yes and a dual rep cruor can rep about 160dps/s wich is pathetic because an incursus can do the same. A daredevil has 90% webs and will do over 300 dps to that cruor and **** it. Cruor was not meant to be an active repper. The only way to make a viable cruor fit is buffer tanked with 1 nos and 1 neut, and that is almost impossible to fit because of cpu and powergrid. And even if you manage to fit that armor plate using faction modules then you STILL do **** dps.
Cruors will still be rarely seen after Kronos because they are still terribad.
It needs a range bonus for neuts or a range and damage bonus for guns
Considering that I've fought and killed DD in a t2 fit without using exile OR ancillary repairer OR links OR t2 rigs, you're just wrong about this. Granted, he was using Ions instead of Neutrons (still had a mag stab and DPS rig) - but I was lacking anything like anci rep, deadspace rep, or exile that would have made me tank his damage better.
One thing to keep in mind is that the only reason to exclude the ancillary repairer from your fit is if you intend to fight enemies with a lot more capacitor than you, such as a cruiser - that's because once you nos your target dry, YOUR capacitor starts to run out because of that, so you can't support standard dual rep like a cap boosting Astero might.
If I'd used a C-type repairer with anci armor rep + c-type Corpii rep + t2 aux nano pumps, my OH tank would be 253. Standard Exile makes that 303. So, what was that about 300 DPS? Also - don't you run with links, anyways? That'd make your tank on just the c-type repper up to 167 OH'd, assuming you aren't using a rep speed link.
Personally, I don't use links, but the unlinked numbers are good enough for me.
Other reasons why your comparison to the Incursus is bad: 1. Dual Rep incursus can't nos your capacitor to 0. 2. Dual Rep incursus doesn't have a web, let alone a range-bonused web to deal with kiters. 3. Dual Rep incursus has MUCH less buffer to absorb vollies from its enemies.
Cruors will rarely be seen after Kronos because EVE players are bad at the game. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
114
|
Posted - 2014.05.31 10:10:00 -
[1627] - Quote
Sheimi Madaveda wrote: People are whining about being "unable to use cap warfare bonus" because "web isn't strong enough to close range" against AB/web/scram frigates, which is a hilarious joke if you ask me. At least you can USE that web now, and you dictate range against anything with a MWD instead of the other way around...
Clearly the joke is over my head, ab/web/scram frigs are simply faster inside scram range, no matter how you cut it. As far as closing range vs kiters, sure as long as you have an mwd fit. But frankly irregardless of that web range bonus, you fly virtually any frigate with an mwd - slinging a kiter into scram range isn't going to be much of an issue. At this point, however, I will have to reserve my judgement on how the Cruor will/won't perform, until Kronos is released, so I can give it a proper test in a live environment.
Note: I'm not judging your own tests, but a part of me feels that sisi testing is too artificial to truly judge the performance of a ship in combat.
Also to Syd Unknown, I have flown and been extremely successful in active fit Cruor's. As with everything in Eve there is never "one way only" to fit a ship and have it perform well. I have over the years tried to point out the quality of the Cruor to a fair few active pvpers only to have them shrug it off because the "status quo" is that it's garbage, without truly giving it a proper chance. The fact is, the ship was strong as is, while being extremely niche (to the point that there was very few normal reasons to actually undock it.) I fear it loses some of that strength now, but as I said I will have to wait until Kronos hits to truly experiment with it. |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13509
|
Posted - 2014.05.31 17:07:00 -
[1628] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote: Clearly the joke is over my head, ab/web/scram frigs are simply faster inside scram range, no matter how you cut it. As far as closing range vs kiters, sure as long as you have an mwd fit. But frankly irregardless of that web range bonus, you fly virtually any frigate with an mwd - slinging a kiter into scram range isn't going to be much of an issue. At this point, however, I will have to reserve my judgement on how the Cruor will/won't perform, until Kronos is released, so I can give it a proper test in a live environment.
Note: I'm not judging your own tests, but a part of me feels that sisi testing is too artificial to truly judge the performance of a ship in combat.
Also to Syd Unknown, I have flown and been extremely successful in active fit Cruor's. As with everything in Eve there is never "one way only" to fit a ship and have it perform well. I have over the years tried to point out the quality of the Cruor to a fair few active pvpers only to have them shrug it off because the "status quo" is that it's garbage, without truly giving it a proper chance. The fact is, the ship was strong as is, while being extremely niche (to the point that there was very few normal reasons to actually undock it.) I fear it loses some of that strength now, but as I said I will have to wait until Kronos hits to truly experiment with it.
You're right about Sisi... there was a lot, and I do mean A LOT of bad players on, trying the new Mordu's Legion ships. Each using their own specially poorly made fit. However, I'm doing my best to try and filter out those fights from my judgment.
My point about AB/Web/Scram is that at least you can land on top of/near to your target once you land, they can't keep you on grid AND avoid you (I.E. Cruor can only be kited by other long range webs) whereas a 90% web with no range bonus is very hard to use given the Cruor's low speed, assuming you don't have links and Fed Navy Web, of course. If you're the kind of person that flies with those, this is definitely a nerf.
I don't get why people are terribly worried about just AB/Web/Scram, is all... plenty of other fits can't dictate range against those fits, but that is a very specific setup. I mean, there are dualprop Dramiel fits that can't dictate range against AB/Web/Scram, so why does it matter a lot more when a Cruor has the chance to cap out its opponent? Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
120
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 06:59:00 -
[1629] - Quote
Well my issue simply with ab/scram/web is it can't do what this ship is suposedly intended to do which is wreck kiters. An mwd kiting frig even with a 60% web on it is faster than an unrestricted ab cruor. So it still can not dictate range. The only time this will be useful is in a proper brawl, and feels like you're just as limited in engagement profile with the new Cruor as you were before. Not to mention any frigate that plans on brawling is probably going to have a web and kiting at the edge of scram anyway making your nos (unless you spring for deadspace) useless. Also don't even think about going after anything with capless weapons because you will just be bent over.
I understand your arguments in favor of the new Cruor, but I feel like there's still too many arguments against it to brush this away as a finished product, nevermind the fact that this is intended to be a "buff."
Edit: One final point, the way the Cruor is now demands a faction web (so yes I definately consider this a nerf,) and while this increases the cost of the ship a lot, it looks like the new cruor demands deadspace/faction nos as well, so you're pretty much in the same situation cost-wise (save about 20ish million isk,) with what is IMO lower performance. |
Sheimi Madaveda
Arma Purgatorium Neutral in Local.
13509
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 00:33:00 -
[1630] - Quote
So, if the Worm only has 2 launchers, could the OP please be edited to reflect that? Right now it says 3 launchers. Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png-á |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2262
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 21:26:00 -
[1631] - Quote
Feedback: Worms are overpowered. Over half of my corp decided to purchase them yesterday after trying (and failing) to kill a WT worm. |
Christine Peeveepeeski
Rodents of Unusual Size
528
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 01:03:00 -
[1632] - Quote
Worms going to get nerfed. It's crazy. Brawler or kiter it's basically an ishtar that can fit into novice fw plexes.
Succubus is also crazy but at least if you are aware of it's weapons engagement range actually it's a fairly simple counter.
Cruor is now crap, it was 'meh' to start with but at least decent 300mill+ fits existed for it. Now it's just crap.
DD and dram are still fine.
Kiting garmur is just a hookbill with lmls if the hookbill had a faction point. scram kite garmur is ok.
From most Op to least;
Worm Daredevil Dram Garmur/Succubus Cruor
New l33t novice meta will be 'hmm I wonder whether that linked/implanted/drugged/faction fitted worm pilot is going brawl or kite. The answer if you are solo should be DO NOT ENGAGE if it's in a novice. Frankly it'll beat most small plex opposition too.... |
Naomi Anthar
371
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 06:56:00 -
[1633] - Quote
Hah it was well known for long time, you could make fits in eft before it was live.
Over 300 dps , over 10k ehp and full tackle , speed of frig. Selectible damage types (because drones do majority and missiles still deal all , and 2 of 4 for 100%).
Lets be honest WORM is not op. It's just out of mind abomination...
As big fan of balance i was actually many times acting in balance thread as you can check in previous pages.
I was warning that ship does not need more buffs than those proposed (and guess what some people acutally though it gonna be weak). Actually i was sure its gonna be OP.
All in all, i won't complain i sit on 50+ worms (sold some already). Profiting from them both in isk and will profit in combat.
Just to clarify one thing : i will not engage worm in novice, unless i go with my own worm ... how is that balance ? ;))) Until the nerf hammer comes - enjoy it.
Just to mention gila is no diffrent in cruiser pirate world. I sold mine gilas already at 230-250 mil. (cant complain got like 50 at 130 mil ;))
Because what go wrong if you can deal like 932 dps with enormous tank, combined with excelent resist profile for logis to keep you up, completly selectible damage types, now buffed drones via tracking and speed.
Answer : everything.
Long story short : tristan was op for long time - nothing has been done about that, comet is op ... and so on. I just don't get one thing why everything that comes near gallente must be madly OP ?
But yeah as long i sell my stocks of guristas ship this is ok. I will complain later ;). |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1291
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 01:48:00 -
[1634] - Quote
Both the worm and the gila seem way overpowered compared to the other pirate ships.
The dram and dardevil and succubus might be able to choose range on the worm but the worm is going to out dps and tank them by far at any range. So whats the point?
This seems to be the case with the Gila as well.
I admit I am often surprised at how ships can be flown and this was a major rework so I don't mind letting the dust settle. I guess I will see if some way to fight these ships by killing off all the drones or something. But right now I just think they outclass the others. I can't even think how I would go about fighting a worm/gila in any of the the other pirate ships of their class.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1327
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 12:32:00 -
[1635] - Quote
Yep the gurista ships are over powered. How long will they remain so? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bloody James
Black Wolf Pack
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 09:53:00 -
[1636] - Quote
Also I noticed that the worm has become the newbie ship of selection. Due to the fact that it's super easy to use.
Just two days ago I fought a newbie with one. It took 3 guys to take it down and the worm pilot had only 5 months. It's just way too much.
I just find most drones ship to be quite too powerful at the moment. The problem is even if you fit a brawler with drones you can kill kiters and also brawlers. They can fight at any distance and when it comes to 1v1, you don't have time to kill all their drones. It's just a waste of time. No other weapon system can do the same so effectively.
Also, Garmur is an op ship but at least it comes with a high price. People have been fitting with a disruptor and scramb combo, which doesn't allow you to ever get close. Only if you have a super fast ship but that means you need to prepare something for the solo purpose of killing a Garmur. |
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