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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:43:00 -
[271]
Chain Gang, you seem to want to inflame the situation. Why?
And beringe, while feelings may have been hurt by what Admiral Trevize has said previously, he is still an honourable man, who I believe has the best intentions of helping his people as well as his employers in mind.
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I have a blog |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:47:00 -
[272]
 Originally by: Chain Gang
Get real CVA
This is as real as it gets.
I'm impressed with Omber Zombie's suggestion, though. Just because ISS have initially told us "tough luck" doesn't mean they shouldn't have an opportunity to change their minds.
That's something for the diplomats, though. Until I'm given orders to the contrary, ISS targets in CVA space will be dealt with accordingly.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:53:00 -
[273]
At this point, any sort of mediator for any sort of diplomacy would be an improvement. If Admiral Trevize is up for it, I urge him to contact the relevant people to start the talks.
Chain Gang, you're not helping. In fact, there's been a decent amount of non-ISS, non-CVA people randomly pouring oil on this fire for a while now. I hope the involved parties are ignoring them.
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Centuria
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:58:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Get real CVA
Well, Chain? You appear to be one of those cursed Alt's...
Why do you not just post with your main? 
Makes life alot more fun, You'll see! 
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:06:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Serenity Steele on 20/04/2006 17:07:24
Originally by: Parallax Error
Firstly, ISS contacted the CVA end of February at which point ISS and CVA came to an agreement about the areas we considered to be our protectorate. This is the agreement where there has been a misunderstanding about the meaning of the word 'to'. It seems the dictionary definition only counts if it backs up what you want, otherwise its meaning is open to whatever interpretation you wish to place on it.
CVA did not fire a shot until after Count Tassenine's post in this thread stating that the removal of the POS in the debated system was not going to happen. This follows at least a full week of attempts to sort this out amicably.
CVA has always maintained a claim on the system in question, ever since ISS approached us and asked at the end of February. It has always been part of our space according to the agreements we have with ISS (and Huzzah for that matter).
(Edited for spelling and grammer only)
Parallax Error:
The issue is not of whether is was 'to' or 'to and including'.
Aralis outright refused ISS's offer to an alternative system next to 3Kb, as CVA allegedly claim the entire constellation.
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
ISS relied on the information of those negotiations to make plans, and now those plans don't suit CVA, they have decided to war dec.
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Orilion
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:09:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Originally by: Parallax Error
Firstly, ISS contacted the CVA end of February at which point ISS and CVA came to an agreement about the areas we considered to be our protectorate. This is the agreement where there has been a misunderstanding about the meaning of the word 'to'. It seems the dictionary definition only counts if it backs up what you want, otherwise its meaning is open to whatever interpretation you wish to place on it.
CVA did not fire a shot until after Count Tassenine's post in this thread stating that the removal of the POS in the debated system was not going to happen. This follows at least a full week of attempts to sort this out amicably.
CVA has always maintained a claim on the system in question, ever since ISS approached us and asked at the end of February. It has always been part of our space according to the agreements we have with ISS (and Huzzah for that matter).
(Edited for spelling and grammer only)
Parallax Error:
The issue is not of whether is was 'to' or 'to and including'.
Aralis outright refused ISS's offer to an alternative system next to 3Kb, as CVA allegedly claim the entire constellation.
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
The alternative system that was offered is actually one step further in our territory, which is naturally not acceptable.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:17:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
With all due respect, that's not the case any more. It may be that the CVA did not communicate their planned expansion well enough, but now it should be clear to all involved what that expansion entails.
Right now, it should be the ISS' responsibility to not destabilize the area further without due cause, and thus hurt shareholder interests.
By giving up this system, conflict would be avoided. And really, why would the ISS so adamantly hold on to this system?
Do the right thing now. Don't let pride get in the way of a stable Providence.
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:19:00 -
[278]
I am real as you get .......
Simple fact is that the CVA hit the Instant War Dec... that tells you alot .. want peace ... my ass.
Kill them and move on ...
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:22:00 -
[279]
Edited by: Omber Zombie on 20/04/2006 17:23:03
Chain, answer my question please or refrain from spouting uninformed rubbish. You are giving the Gallente a bad name by urging war for no apparant reason.
edit: spelling
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I have a blog |
Vincent Gaines
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:26:00 -
[280]
CVA knew we would not shoot first in any non-war declared relationship. They knew that yesterday when this started.
I believe there was a rush to war without enough diplomacy, and I'm sad to have recieved news of the war declaration.
Enemies of stability and progress are rejoicing right now.
These views are my own, not official.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:26:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Chain Gang on 20/04/2006 17:26:25
Quote:
Chain, answer my question please or refrain from spouting uniformed rubbish. You are giving the Gallente a bad name by urging war for no apparant reason.
You are in no position to ask anything ...
But I would suggest the ISS to give nothing to an alliance that insta war decs and whines on the forums about peace ....
1) Butter Dog asks all ISSN pilots to stay away from CVA Space.
2) CVA War Decs ...
Even the simplest person (even you) can see how this is nothing more than bullying .....
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:27:00 -
[282]
well.. what makes me wonder, is why ISS offered to move to another system within cva claimed space when they would just have to go 1 system farther than what they suggested (DP-JD4) wich is OUTSIDE the claimed space...
an idea to think about maybe?
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Manfred Doomhammer
CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:30:00 -
[283]
Quote:
an idea to think about maybe?
The ISS had lots of ideas no doubt .... and like any normal alliance they asked their pilots to stay at home while they explored them ..
Unlike the CVA who just War Dec'd and then screamed foul .. pathetic.
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Orilion
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:30:00 -
[284]
Why does anyone even bother to reason with Chain Gang ? Its obvious he is here to flame...
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:32:00 -
[285]
Flame ... lol
What part of my post was incorrect ...
1) Butter Dog asked all ISSN pilots to stay away ...
2) You declared war ......
Seems honest to me ... but I suppose the truth hurts for you guys.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:33:00 -
[286]
Chain Gang has a point ... forget all the long sentences.
They asked there pilots to stay away and the cva sent a war message ... seems clear.
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Goodtime Girl
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:34:00 -
[287]
Seems like the "way not" to do politics CVA ...
Someone suggests a ceasefire and you make the war official. Smart move.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:34:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
These views are my own, not official.
Appreciated, but since there are several ISS members that have now stated that they don't want this conflict (and, in fact, none who has stated that they do), one would think that there should now be an insider lobby dedicated to settling this peacefully.
Come on, guys. This is a case of too damn close. Somebody step over the line and offer a handshake of truce.
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:37:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Zooish
They asked there pilots to stay away and the cva sent a war message ... seems clear.
Except, of course, the terms are not "move your pilots out of our space." The terms are "move your stations out of our space." When ISS shows interest in complying, then we can stand down from a hostile stance.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:40:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Chain Gang
1) Butter Dog asks all ISSN pilots to stay away from CVA Space.
2) CVA War Decs ...
Even the simplest person (even you) can see how this is nothing more than bullying .....
For someone who followed the thread since the very beginning I would have expected more knowledge about the matter at hand.
Aralis has given ISS 24h to reply. The official response was that our request of the POSs' removal was denied. Since that it hasn't changed a bit.
Why should we now wait just because the ISS Navy states that they won't attack us for now? The reason for the war are those control towers, not the ISS Navy.
The ISS Navy doesn't negotiate the deal. The ISS management does. And they haven't changed their stance.
As Aralis has stated, he is very much willing to stop/hold the war if ISS wants to take down those towers.
Originally by: Aralis
5) We would be more than happy to let ISS remove it's POS and if it states that it will do so and wishes to return to the previous state of neutrality then that can easily be arranged.
I am hoping for a peaceful solution to this as well. This war is going to hurt both parties. But until then, I will do anything in my reach to help the cva.
Forsch
Defender of the empire |
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:41:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Goodtime Girl
Seems like the "way not" to do politics CVA ...
Someone suggests a ceasefire and you make the war official. Smart move.
now thats a good one...
define the word ceasefire as you use it...
to my knowledge (i may have missed something, but id rather doubt it) there was no talk about a ceasefire... ISS offered to move to another system claimed by CVA. Now, it might not have been the best idea to task the Admiral with the negotiations, considering the bad words that have been traded before.
I suggested a system a bit up in this thread (DP-JD4) wich is 1 jump further from what ISS suggested, and 2 jumps from the system the whole incident got started about.
I can not do more than try to mediate, take it for what its worth.
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Manfred Doomhammer
CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:41:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Edited by: Chain Gang on 20/04/2006 17:26:25
Quote:
Chain, answer my question please or refrain from spouting uniformed rubbish. You are giving the Gallente a bad name by urging war for no apparant reason.
You are in no position to ask anything ...
Actually, I am. As a Gallente citizen I am insulted that you are urging these two organizations to continue bloodshed instead of seeking a peaceful resolution. You have avoided explaining why this situation should interest you in the slightest (I hoped that as a Gallente you would be interested simply to stop the bloodshed), and as such, I see no need for your constant calls for bloodshed? Have you been employed by someoneto say this or are you just simply interested in causing people to die needlessly?
Originally by: Chain Gang
Even the simplest person (even you) can see how this is nothing more than bullying .....
Even though I must be simpler than the simplest person, I find it amusing that you see this situation as 'nothing more than bullying'. There is far more involved here than you or I know about, and insulting my intelligence does not make you look more intelligent.
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I have a blog |
Orilion
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:43:00 -
[293]
I am curious why do people make assumptions and accusations about something they have very litle knowlegde of.
Even if you have read every post in here, which is usually not the case, there is still so much going in game that is not published here....
If you are going to make a comment, please inform yourself before instead of demanding questions that have been answered many times by now.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:44:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Parallax Error:
The issue is not of whether is was 'to' or 'to and including'.
Aralis outright refused ISS's offer to an alternative system next to 3Kb, as CVA allegedly claim the entire constellation.
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
ISS relied on the information of those negotiations to make plans, and now those plans don't suit CVA, they have decided to war dec.
No its fairly simple, as Orillion said the supposed alternative system is actually further into the area we are talking about. Quite how you can say that you were offering an alternative when:
a) Large fully armed POS number 4 or 5 was being onlined
b) The alternative was one jump further into the disputed area.
The claim and the agreement is pretty straightforward from my position, to me the only thing ISS has relied upon so far is CVA capitulating at the first sign of trouble. Infact i'm starting to believe that its pretty damn obvious that you were going to take something in that constellation regardless of what was going to happen or what was previously agreed.
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Centuria
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:45:00 -
[295]
Chain, If an alt makes a corp, he isn't an alt anymore?
I guess Mongo Peck is your main, eh? Shady background on that one.
And that 'Zooish'... *sigh*
Oz, ya can't expect puppets to uphold anything but flames. :)
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:47:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Zooish
Chain Gang has a point ... forget all the long sentences.
They asked there pilots to stay away and the cva sent a war message ... seems clear.
Yah. Gog hit rock wid club. Gog hate rock. Long sent-duh-ces hard. 
The only thing that's clear to me is that you and Chain Gang understand the situation even less than would be expected of someone with the reading comprehension of a ten-year old.
There's posturing and lack of communcation...and you think it would be best solved by...more posturing and lack of communication? Please.
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:52:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Goodtime Girl
Seems like the "way not" to do politics CVA ...
Someone suggests a ceasefire and you make the war official. Smart move.
Speaking for myself again, I am confident that if ISS leadership gave any indication of intent to remove their starbases CVA would be very reasonable in providing them a ceasefire and all the time they needed to do this, and likely even cover, as we provide to all non-hostiles in our space.
Without that statement of intent coming from an official ISS source I can't see us allowing ISS time to solidify their control of this part of CVA space.
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Sushi Tanaka
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:59:00 -
[298]
Seems like a war dec is the only way to prove that you're serious. CVA's demand of starbase removal was met with outright defiance by ISS, which seems in violation of thier charter.
Originally by: ISS Charter
0.0 region access terms
- All member corporations are to respect the terms under which they gain access to 0.0 space under host alliances.
- Terms are specific to each region and are posted on the ISS forums.
- If a member corporation disregards these terms and conditions, or overwhelming circumstantial evidence to this effect is presented, the ISS will proceed to expel the member corporation.
It is through respect for these terms that your corporation can operate in 0.0. The operation of the ISS depends on the strict observance of the conditions and terms under which we operate in host territories.
When this flared up, wouldn't it have been reasonable for the offending corporation to simply contact CVA, apologize and remove the starbases?
But instead, that corporation passed it off to ISS management to deal with. The result was said management declaring that the starbases would not be removed and CVA should reduce it's claim by one system.
When confronted by an encroaching superpower, what choices do the residents have when negotiation fail?
1) Comply and hope it doesn't happen again. (Appeasment)
2) Fight back.
CVA has chosen to defend it's claim, which is its right to do.
But one must wonder why the offending corporation didn't take the high-road and negotiate removal of its assets on its own. Are they being used for ulterior motives by the ISS managment? |
Ethidium Bromide
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:08:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Ethidium Bromide on 20/04/2006 18:11:21
Originally by: Sushi Tanaka
Seems like a war dec is the only way to prove that you're serious. CVA's demand of starbase removal was met with outright defiance by ISS, which seems in violation of thier charter.
Originally by: ISS Charter
0.0 region access terms
- All member corporations are to respect the terms under which they gain access to 0.0 space under host alliances.
- Terms are specific to each region and are posted on the ISS forums.
- If a member corporation disregards these terms and conditions, or overwhelming circumstantial evidence to this effect is presented, the ISS will proceed to expel the member corporation.
It is through respect for these terms that your corporation can operate in 0.0. The operation of the ISS depends on the strict observance of the conditions and terms under which we operate in host territories.
When this flared up, wouldn't it have been reasonable for the offending corporation to simply contact CVA, apologize and remove the starbases?
But instead, that corporation passed it off to ISS management to deal with. The result was said management declaring that the starbases would not be removed and CVA should reduce it's claim by one system.
When confronted by an encroaching superpower, what choices do the residents have when negotiation fail?
1) Comply and hope it doesn't happen again. (Appeasment)
2) Fight back.
CVA has chosen to defend it's claim, which is its right to do.
But one must wonder why the offending corporation didn't take the high-road and negotiate removal of its assets on its own. Are they being used for ulterior motives by the ISS managment?
not only is it very interesting to read this (yes i have missed to read any ISS descriptions so far) but this also indicates how ISS is trying to put their interests above others.
if the CVA doesn't make them stop here, the rights of others would be ignored.
thank you for pointing out how just this fight is!
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just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:11:00 -
[300]
Yesterday, the OEC engaged and helped destroy an ISS Brutix entering into the Providence region. We have done so purposefully but not without regrets. We have performed many combat actions and patrols near ISS Margins, and look forward to its continued success. Although we are only a small mercenary group seeking only our next contractąthe winds of war cannot be easily ignored for our honor bound charge to all members that bear our insignia.
The OEC has been grateful to our hosts in Providence, the CVA. Therefore we will join with them if there are any conflicts with the ISS. Although we are small, and in large part insignificant to most chartered corporations operating here, we do this out of honorąa trait that is often forgotten once one passes an empireĘs borders into the abyss. Our hope is that hostilities will cease sooner rather than later, but we commit to seeing whatever the end results are from this ordeal.
Personally, I have seen many warsąwhich I will not reminisce about here. It is undoubtedly the agent of changeąa great force that often starts with a drop of rain that turns into a tsunami of destruction. Many great things have been built upon the shores of the great Amarrian Empire, and I for one will be watching from the ramparts the approaching storm with mild enthusiasm.
Glory to the FightersąStrength in Arms,
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Karash Amerius
Tac Coordinator, OEC
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