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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Aralis
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Posted - 2006.04.19 04:58:00 -
[1]
ISS have invaded CVA space and placed several large pos over 2 systems. Direct contact having failed to receive any responses recently you are hereby given 24 hours notice to respond and commence withdrawal or war will automatically commence.
I'm surprised that this should be necessary. ISS asked for the definition of our space and were given it back around the end of February. A previous intrusion into our space was peacefully dealt with - to be almost immediately followed by this one. However having had no responses to my mails about this this is your last warning.
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Eric carr
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Posted - 2006.04.19 06:26:00 -
[2]
kill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Det e helt sjukt, det enda min CEO Shandra vill e att fs mig i sSng... Vet inte hur lSnge jag kan klara denna frestelse |
Boonaki
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Posted - 2006.04.19 07:20:00 -
[3]
Hopefully they see this post. signature removed - please email us if you want to know why - Oldmailman([email protected]) |
Blood Gutter
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Posted - 2006.04.19 08:02:00 -
[4]
Who? Where?
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:17:00 -
[5]
We had detailed discussions with CVA - you were asked for your borders, and the POS were then placed OUTSIDE the borders you gave us!
Also Count has been speaking to you regularly about this, so to claim we are not speaking to you is, quite frankly, a lie. I don't know why you would claim that.
Nonetheless, I'm sure the issue can be resolved to your satisfaction quickly - though Count isnt online at the moment, I'll drop him a PM to ask him to contact you ASAP.
Still, your approach to this is quite strange considering how we have consulted with CVA regarding this. And as I mentioned the POS were placed outside the borders you gave us.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Seleene on 19/04/2006 09:20:47
Aralis, the MC represenative you spoke with last night stands ready to assist in the mediation of this matter to help achieve a peaceful resolution should the CVA wish it.
Violence is the last path you should want to pursue. I strongly urge you to reconsider this stance. -
Who is the MC? Watch! |
solidshot
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:25:00 -
[7]
Edited by: solidshot on 19/04/2006 09:25:43 Edited by: solidshot on 19/04/2006 09:25:17
Originally by: Seleene Edited by: Seleene on 19/04/2006 09:20:47
Aralis, the MC represenative you spoke with last night stands ready to assist in the mediation of this matter to help achieve a peaceful resolution should the CVA wish it.
Violence is the last path you should want to pursue. I strongly urge you to reconsider this stance.
wrong post
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Acron Ishtal
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:25:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Acron Ishtal on 19/04/2006 09:29:22 Edited by: Acron Ishtal on 19/04/2006 09:28:12 Let me clear up a few of your misconceptions here:
Originally by: Butter Dog We had detailed discussions with CVA - you were asked for your borders, and the POS were then placed OUTSIDE the borders you gave us!
Obviously someone has their map turned upside down.
Originally by: Butter Dog Also Count has been speaking to you regularly about this, so to claim we are not speaking to you is, quite frankly, a lie. I don't know why you would claim that.
He didn't claim you hadn't spoken to us at ALL, he claimed that a response to his attempts to contact you over this latest incursion had gone unanswered. Be careful what you insinuate. Aralis is one of the most trustworthy people you will ever deal with. He does NOT lie. To imply that he would, or in your case, straight out call him a liar, is poor form. I do not doubt for a second that what he said is EXACTLY the truth, and that your interpretation of facts is "fuzzy".
Originally by: Butter Dog Nonetheless, I'm sure the issue can be resolved to your satisfaction quickly - though Count isnt online at the moment, I'll drop him a PM to ask him to contact you ASAP.
Perhaps he'll check his mail this time?
Originally by: Butter Dog Still, your approach to this is quite strange considering how we have consulted with CVA regarding this. And as I mentioned the POS were placed outside the borders you gave us.
Likewise, your approach to this situation, ie: calling our CEO a liar, not answering our attempts at communication, placing POSes inside our space... well quite frankly seems like you are the ones having problems constructively approaching this situation.
Seleene:
Originally by: Seleene Edited by: Seleene on 19/04/2006 09:20:47
Aralis, the MC represenative you spoke with last night stands ready to assist in the mediation of this matter to help achieve a peaceful resolution should the CVA wish it.
Violence is the last path you should want to pursue. I strongly urge you to reconsider this stance.
Obviously violence isn't our first choice, or else we would not be warning them that they are pushing us too far. If the ISS can abide by their agreements, then we would have no problem with them. Clearly there is a dispute, and they are not responding. Violence is an unfortunate choice in any situation, but we are running out of options.
(edit: for spelling >.<) --------------------------------------------- "True honor is found only in service to the Emperor. Only His wisdom can guide us to the path of the righteous." |
Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Acron Ishtal
Perhaps he'll check his mail this time?
He hasnt actually been online for a day or two... I should think thats why.
I have unanswered mail too which i sent to him.
I sent him a PM on the internal forum. I'm sure he'll be in touch as soon as he gets online.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
zoolkhan
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:32:00 -
[10]
Interesting happenings indeed. I hope it is just a misunderstanding.
regards, v.Adm. ZoolKhan; W're Ushra'Khan - we come for our people!
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Lake
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:38:00 -
[11]
While I do not generally involve myself in the main thread of ISS Politics it's clear to me that ISS Leadership has no interest in encroaching on CVA's space (or any sovereign space, for that matter). If we accept that as true then the only conclusion is that this is simply a matter of miscommunication. All we need now is for the right people in CVA to speak to the right people in ISS and the matter will be resolved with no harm done. It's unfortunate CVA had to resort to a public forum post to draw the right attention, but now it's done and I expect the news to spread as needed. Let us 'chill' and allow matters to take their course.
~Lake, Founder and CEO of The Praxis Initiative |
Maggot
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:40:00 -
[12]
Zoolkhan,
I expect this is no misunderstanding. The Amarr consider the whole galaxy to belong to their holy empire. They just allow others to use systems on a temporary basis.
Maggot.
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Acron Ishtal
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:41:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Acron Ishtal on 19/04/2006 09:41:55
Originally by: Maggot Zoolkhan,
I expect this is no misunderstanding. The Amarr consider the whole galaxy to belong to their holy empire. They just allow others to use systems on a temporary basis.
Maggot.
Go find your own place to pee into the wind terrorist. Let those who have some modicum of interest in peace talk without your filth. --------------------------------------------- "True honor is found only in service to the Emperor. Only His wisdom can guide us to the path of the righteous." |
wunhunglo
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:44:00 -
[14]
this isnt the first time the ISS has done this though is it, they did the same to SA and several other alliances i believe?
And to seleene was that suposed to be a subtle hint that you are gonna come running to the ISS's rescue yet again? just like every other time they drop themselves in it
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:48:00 -
[15]
Acron,
Golan Trevize is the MC representative in this matter and he spoke with Aralis last night. He speaks highly of Aralis and, of course, my organization has nothing but respect for the CVA. However, our offer of mediation in this matter is made on behalf of our client, ISS.
Seeing as how we will become involved should the situation worsen, we would prefer to see the situation defused ahead of time. If we can assist in that process, all the better. If not, then I wish you luck in whatever course you decide is appropriate.
Originally by: wunhunglo And to seleene was that suposed to be a subtle hint that you are gonna come running to the ISS's rescue yet again? just like every other time they drop themselves in it
Over the last year, we have been in the employ of ISS twice for a combined time of less than two weeks. They have proven to be excellent clients who communicate thier desires well and pay thier bills on time. Anything else is pure speculation. -
Who is the MC? Watch! |
Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:01:00 -
[16]
This is not a time for Amarrian arrogance. I would strongly advise you to come to an agreement with ISS over the next few days.
As for us running to help ISS again, we havent even done it once. As Seleene says, we have been employed by ISS twice, both for fairly short amounts of time (one being the Borealis deployment). They are a good client and should they wish to employ us again im sure we can work a contract out.
As for the topic at hand, playing the "war" card wont get you very far this time
My Latest Vid (18/04/06) |
Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:10:00 -
[17]
I just wish to clarify an important point here.
Having looked through some of the documentation we have, we were given a list of systems CVA planned to expand to, and we carefully avoided these systems, as we promised we would.
The systems we have placed POS in are, quite categorically, not on that list.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Sidyous
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:29:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sidyous on 19/04/2006 10:29:50
Originally by: Eyeshadow This is not a time for Amarrian arrogance. I would strongly advise you to come to an agreement with ISS over the next few days.
As for us running to help ISS again, we havent even done it once. As Seleene says, we have been employed by ISS twice, both for fairly short amounts of time (one being the Borealis deployment). They are a good client and should they wish to employ us again im sure we can work a contract out.
As for the topic at hand, playing the "war" card wont get you very far this time
Eyeshadow,
I do hope for a peaceful solution to this and i'm sure when Aralis wakes up he can discuss it. Your attempts to threaten us are not exactly helping matters, you know we can't be bullied by mercenaries even if you do have 'Frickin' laser beams (I personally prefer a nice Tachyon Beam Laser 2). We do expect answers when we ask for them directly and as it took so long the public announcement was the way to get the attention to our requests that we asked for and guess what, it worked. For now I think the best course of action is to stop flogging mud and wait for the diplomats to decide where things went wrong.
Regards
Sidyous CEO Auctoritan Syndicate -----------------------------------------------
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Maggot
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:42:00 -
[19]
Acron Ishtal,
Interest in peace! I admit that I have no interest in peace until every last slave is free. However this is a bit rich coming from an organisation that blasted a college facility into atoms.
Maggot.
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Acron Ishtal
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:49:00 -
[20]
Hardly surprising Maggot. Your penchant for distorting facts isn't limited to your own actions. As I said before, we're all better off if you just keep your mouth shut and mind your own. Perhaps you can get back to rebuilding your terrorist training camp? --------------------------------------------- "True honor is found only in service to the Emperor. Only His wisdom can guide us to the path of the righteous." |
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TFH AGONY
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Posted - 2006.04.19 11:01:00 -
[21]
Well Aralis you have messaged me about this before. we had our docking rights removed and delt with your ignorance, we complied and took everything down. we also talked with count to resolve this and yet everything was solved until now. You even b$tched out 3 of our haulers in your system, you undocked a zealot and threatened to pop a corpmate in a rifter.
I don't think there is enough time in the day to deal with your ego. we have ignored all of your whinning and left it up to you and count. We will not back down nor will we leave. I will make note of this as my corp. This is not a very wise move, many other corps in these areas will not take to this. The choice is yours, Count and Mongo have spoken with you. I have copies of those eve mails. lie all you wish. You have been notified. Take it up with count for the 900th time.
I told you before If my corp is in the wrong we will leave, if you had a problem with my corp to talk to me aswel you have done neither. all you have done is threaten us, We have done everything we can to avoid this. There is nothing more we can do! This is between you and ISS resolve it!
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2006.04.19 11:01:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Eyeshadow on 19/04/2006 11:00:49
Originally by: Sidyous Eyeshadow,
I do hope for a peaceful solution to this and i'm sure when Aralis wakes up he can discuss it. Your attempts to threaten us are not exactly helping matters, you know we can't be bullied by mercenaries even if you do have 'Frickin' laser beams (I personally prefer a nice Tachyon Beam Laser 2). We do expect answers when we ask for them directly and as it took so long the public announcement was the way to get the attention to our requests that we asked for and guess what, it worked. For now I think the best course of action is to stop flogging mud and wait for the diplomats to decide where things went wrong.
Regards
Sidyous CEO Auctoritan Syndicate
You misunderstand my post, good sir. It was not meant as a threat or bullying. I am a man of war, it is true, but id still rather limit my targets to persons of less "honourable" (so to speak, the amarr empire means nothing to me unless they pay me to do something) backgrounds, namely pirates and those rogues in the Curse Coalition and Centre for Disease Creation.
If we can hold hold fire against each other id prefer that. However, dont assume i wont call you primary. The client's wishes are of primary concern. If he tells us to shoot CVA pilots, we will, id just prefer it if we didnt have to, especially over some arrogant claim on a system you have little interest in
My Latest Vid (18/04/06) |
Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 11:05:00 -
[23]
Keep going CVA as I'm sure the ISS would like another Free Outpost.
As far as I can see ... you sent a list of claimed systems, the ISS avoided all these and now your changing you mind shouting "I want that one", "and that one" and "that one".
You had a long convo with Mongo Peck (I didn't think he had a diplomatic bone in his body) and things were sorted out. Now your running to the boards like a bunch of Newbs. Either keep quiet, act like men and speak to the ISS or I'll ask Mongo to have another on way chat.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.04.19 11:12:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 19/04/2006 11:12:31
Originally by: Acron Ishtal Hardly surprising Maggot. Your penchant for distorting facts isn't limited to your own actions. As I said before, we're all better off if you just keep your mouth shut and mind your own. Perhaps you can get back to rebuilding your terrorist training camp?
Watch your tounge you slaver scum. You will not threaten our leader, you are unworthy even to address him. Besides, your expansionist desires in 'the name of the Empire' are well known. - Rise.
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o'niel
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Posted - 2006.04.19 11:21:00 -
[25]
why is MC getting involved ? your a merc alliance not diplomats for ISS or is there more than meets the eye ?
seleene & co getting all hot n bothered ,you should careless for what is happening between CVA and ISS unless your gonna get employed by ISS ...
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Odarin
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Posted - 2006.04.19 11:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: o'niel why is MC getting involved ? your a merc alliance not diplomats for ISS or is there more than meets the eye ?
seleene & co getting all hot n bothered ,you should careless for what is happening between CVA and ISS unless your gonna get employed by ISS ...
Maybe you should read _all_ the posts before adding your commments. Refer to post #15. -Oda
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.19 11:46:00 -
[27]
Aralis,
As you noted, We agreed the boundaries back in February, inclusive of expansion plans for systems that CVA laid no claim to at the time. We have honoured these to-date despite it's marked absence from the Territorial Map 2 months later.
ISS had hoped that quick resolution of the last matter would clearly demonstrate our open and willingness to honor the agreement with CVA and resolve any future issues, should they arise.
If you feel that the time-frame of response is too short from Count, you're welcome to email me. I'll Evemail you my RL email address when DT is over and we can setup a time to talk.
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Majaraw Awalabas
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Posted - 2006.04.19 12:42:00 -
[28]
Should it come to blows, my old friends in CVA will not be alone.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.19 12:57:00 -
[29]
^^ Who cares
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted - 2006.04.19 13:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Zooish ^^ Who cares
Given the sheer volume of replies...I would imagine the answer is "lots of people". A conflict like this would change the whole region, in my opinion for the better.
Now Recruiting |
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.19 13:07:00 -
[31]
To be honest with you, it looks like CVA are trying to look for a fight, either that or they are stupid.
ISS have taken every precaution not to tread on your toes, but you keep changing the goalposts. You tell them you don't claim the space, then after they have put up a POS chain, you change your mind.
You're not exactly treating them fairly, and with all this posturing... Well, all I will say is - be careful what you threaten, and why, because it makes you look unprofessional, especially when you are the ones who keep changing your minds.
The ISS don't all fly haulers you know, think very carefully before wardeccing them about what you are taking on - because it all seems kind of pointless to me.
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted - 2006.04.19 13:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mr Trouble To be honest with you, it looks like CVA are trying to look for a fight, either that or they are stupid.
ISS have taken every precaution not to tread on your toes, but you keep changing the goalposts. You tell them you don't claim the space, then after they have put up a POS chain, you change your mind.
You're not exactly treating them fairly, and with all this posturing... Well, all I will say is - be careful what you threaten, and why, because it makes you look unprofessional, especially when you are the ones who keep changing your minds.
The ISS don't all fly haulers you know, think very carefully before wardeccing them about what you are taking on - because it all seems kind of pointless to me.
I think a more consistent analogy would be that they moved their feet
Now Recruiting |
FowlPlayChiken
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Posted - 2006.04.19 13:26:00 -
[33]
/me looks at sel and eyes posts and guesses they are very, very, very bored.
down forum *****s! down! sit ! :-d
Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler |
Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2006.04.19 13:36:00 -
[34]
anyone else notice that ISS is becoming more and more belligerent to other alliances and indeed arrogant in their posting? makes me wonder if their fabled neutrality is indeed beginning to wither...
naw couldn't be, they are spread thin all across the cluster, if they suddenly revealed a non-neutral stance they might jeopardize their ability to survive outside of those alliances they have come to serve so well. though they do have the Mercenary Coalition to rely upon as a combat force (why these mercs are even jumping to their defense, quite nice for contracted mercenaries if you ask me) and ISS seem to be getting along with BoB ever so well lately...
no no, I'm wrong, they wouldn't crap on everything they stand for. I'm just an old paranoid fool. don't listen to me, just because this kind of thing has happened dozens of times in the past doesn't mean it will happen again. If they accidentally placed their stations in CVA space (which has been the same systems for what, a year now?) then it must have been an accident.
I feel much better now, yes ISS in neutral. So how is that Station in Pure-blind working for ya? Did you need someone to repaint the Trust office signs for you? I charge reasonable fees.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.19 13:44:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss If they accidentally placed their stations in CVA space (which has been the same systems for what, a year now?) then it must have been an accident.
Can't you read?
ISS didnt 'accidentally' do anything. CVA told them they didn't claim the systems they put POS up in, then they changed their minds.
ISS can hardly be blamed for CVA's rapid changes of heart.
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Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2006.04.19 13:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss If they accidentally placed their stations in CVA space (which has been the same systems for what, a year now?) then it must have been an accident.
Can't you read?
ISS didnt 'accidentally' do anything. CVA told them they didn't claim the systems they put POS up in, then they changed their minds.
ISS can hardly be blamed for CVA's rapid changes of heart.
ahem, the entire post was sarcastic
I know they put their POS there on purpose, I was being silly ^_^
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 14:11:00 -
[37]
Quote: anyone else notice that ISS is becoming more and more belligerent to other alliances and indeed arrogant in their posting? makes me wonder if their fabled neutrality is indeed beginning to wither...
naw couldn't be, they are spread thin all across the cluster, if they suddenly revealed a non-neutral stance they might jeopardize their ability to survive outside of those alliances they have come to serve so well. though they do have the Mercenary Coalition to rely upon as a combat force (why these mercs are even jumping to their defense, quite nice for contracted mercenaries if you ask me) and ISS seem to be getting along with BoB ever so well lately...
no no, I'm wrong, they wouldn't crap on everything they stand for. I'm just an old paranoid fool. don't listen to me, just because this kind of thing has happened dozens of times in the past doesn't mean it will happen again. If they accidentally placed their stations in CVA space (which has been the same systems for what, a year now?) then it must have been an accident.
I feel much better now, yes ISS in neutral. So how is that Station in Pure-blind working for ya? Did you need someone to repaint the Trust office signs for you? I charge reasonable fees.
Statements like this kinda make you look stupid ..... I believe the Outpost was only taken control off with the agreement of Trust.
As for CVA they are acting like children, for months the ISS has asked if it would be "OK" to setup a pos in several locations. Their response "nothing to do with us" .... now they shake their toys and throw their teddy bears.
All I can say is ...... you fire a single bullet and I'm gonna nuke you.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.19 14:38:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Manfred Doomhammer on 19/04/2006 14:42:39 well... what really is astounding is the number of experts there are for communications done between CVA and ISS... you keep wondering if the fabled 'Secure Communication' is all that secure...
or might it be there are some people trying to get the attention they would not get in their belt or at their famous gate?
i didnt forget you slaves in your pens, but at least youre remarks are expected ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.19 14:41:00 -
[39]
What we need is logs and proof from both sides of the original agreement, so it would be quite clear to see which systems we're claimed by CVA soverign or not.
Also I think this issue really came about after ISS took down a POS when asked to for being in the wrong system, then only a few weeks later placed 4 large POS in the very same system. Can anyone verify this from either side?
I agree there is no reason for two great alliances who promote peace to fight each other, but do not mistake CVA's intensions they do not make false moves for greed, if CVA says ISS has errored then I am sure there was some break-down of communication somewhere that indeed caused this error.
www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.19 14:48:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Zooish on 19/04/2006 14:48:13 "As an Outsider"
/me looks at the Eve Map = system not claimed.
/me looks at the "Running to the Boards Post" instead of contacting the ISS = looking for a fight.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.19 14:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kular What we need is logs and proof from both sides of the original agreement, so it would be quite clear to see which systems we're claimed by CVA soverign or not.
I hardly think two alliances are going to start copying and pasting internal mails onto a public forum, I'm sure they will sort it out between them like grown ups, and let us kids just forum w*h*o*r*e rather than give us the evidence and say 'over to you, the jury!'.
Both ISS and CVA are both peave-promoting, stable alliances. This is clearly the result of a misunderstading, but I have to say CVA's approach is both aggressive and amatuer in nature. You can't keep changing your mind about what space you want to claim AFTER a POS chain has gone up.
And no, we are talking about different systems here - they didn't put them up in the same ones. ISS put POS up outside their claimed space as it shows on the alliance map.
But then I'm sure the MC and ISS Navy won't mind someone else to shoot at if CVA really want to take it that far.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:11:00 -
[42]
^^ Most sensible post to date ...
CVA get lost and stop forum who-aring
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Kuang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:23:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Kuang on 19/04/2006 15:23:28
Originally by: Eyeshadow This is not a time for Amarrian arrogance. I would strongly advise you to come to an agreement with ISS over the next few days.
As for us running to help ISS again, we havent even done it once. As Seleene says, we have been employed by ISS twice, both for fairly short amounts of time (one being the Borealis deployment). They are a good client and should they wish to employ us again im sure we can work a contract out.
As for the topic at hand, playing the "war" card wont get you very far this time
Personally sounds like ISS is throwing there own " WAR " card ... then again according to Eyeshadow we are just common " Pirates " ( love when people use that word ... almost used as much as bandwagon )
So much for being neutral ----------
http://virii.homeip.net/
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:24:00 -
[44]
Quote: Personally sounds like ISS is throwing there own " WAR " card ... then again according to Eyeshadow we are just common " Pirates " ( love when people use that word ... almost used as much as bandwagon )
So much for being neutral
Woot didn't take long for CDC to post nothing about nothing ........
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Kuang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:36:00 -
[45]
Another satisfied customer ----------
http://virii.homeip.net/
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Jacob Majestic
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kuang So much for being neutral
ISS has declared the Curse region off-limits to civilian traffic. You and CC continue to disrupt ISS civilian activity outside your claimed space. Either make a claim to Catch or get out of this thread.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:41:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kuang
Personally sounds like ISS is throwing there own " WAR " card ... then again according to Eyeshadow we are just common " Pirates " ( love when people use that word ... almost used as much as bandwagon )
So much for being neutral
Oh look, CDC have joined the fun.
You were later than your usual ISS thread whoring. Standards are slipping.
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Kuang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Kuang So much for being neutral
ISS has declared the Curse region off-limits to civilian traffic. You and CC continue to disrupt ISS civilian activity outside your claimed space. Either make a claim to Catch or get out of this thread.
If you didn't want this public you should have left the post alone and done everything internal instead of taking it to " public " forums ... now for the rest you will need to contact the higher ups ... I play the game to shoot things and let others deal with the politics ----------
http://virii.homeip.net/
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:46:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kuang
If you didn't want this public you should have left the post alone and done everything internal instead of taking it to " public " forums ... now for the rest you will need to contact the higher ups ... I play the game to shoot things and let others deal with the politics
Oh really?
If that were true why are you forum whoring in ISS threads?
Get back to shooty shooty quick, maybe no-one will notice your double-standards.
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wunhunglo
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Posted - 2006.04.19 15:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Kuang So much for being neutral
ISS has declared the Curse region off-limits to civilian traffic. You and CC continue to disrupt ISS civilian activity outside your claimed space. Either make a claim to Catch or get out of this thread.
the ISS claims the whole curse region now?
|
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Krackerjack
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 15:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: wunhunglo
the ISS claims the whole curse region now?
He just said they declared curse off limits to ISS civilian traffic, so, er... no
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wunhunglo
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 15:57:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Krackerjack
He just said they declared curse off limits to ISS civilian traffic, so, er... no
Well if they dont claim that region what right do they have to declare it off limits?
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patteSatan
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 16:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: FowlPlayChiken /me looks at sel and eyes posts and guesses they are very, very, very bored.
down forum *****s! down! sit ! :-d
Hmmm, I remember a "bawking" friend who forum w h o r ed way back??
;) BAWK!!!!
============================================ So what?? You killed me?? Clickety I DON'T CARE, GRIEFER |
Lt Hole
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 16:20:00 -
[54]
Looks like ISS have made more friends in the Eve universe.
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Jacob Majestic
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 16:26:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 19/04/2006 16:30:36
Originally by: wunhunglo
Originally by: Krackerjack
He just said they declared curse off limits to ISS civilian traffic, so, er... no
Well if they dont claim that region what right do they have to declare it off limits?
I'm sorry, I misspoke in my previous statement. What I meant to say was this:
"ISS has declared the Curse region off-limits to ISS civilian traffic. You and CC continue to disrupt ISS civilian activity outside your claimed space. Either make a claim to Catch or get out of this thread."
ISS recognizes CC/CDC's claim to the Curse region as legitimate and has banned ISS civilian traffic in that region. This point has been reinforced through Alliance mail and posts on our internal forums. If CC/CDC want to go that extra step and make a claim on Catch (and I don't mean in a "lol I claim Delve lol" way), then the proper thing to do is to either get your war on or get out. Randomly ganking haulers is a great way to get a good many people mad at you.
This is of course assuming that you were in any way interested in peace in Catch, ever. However, it is clear to basically everyone that your paranoid ISS ramblings are nothing more than a pretense to go shooty shooty at ISS haulers. If this gets your jollies off then by all means collect bad will until you run your formerly proud alliance into the ground. After the dust settles we'll still be in Catch selling stuff to the 99% of EVE that plays by our simple, reasonable rules.
Now, if I remember correctly this thread is about CVA, not CC/CDC. Carry on.
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sb404
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Posted - 2006.04.19 16:28:00 -
[56]
Originally by: wunhunglo
Originally by: Krackerjack
He just said they declared curse off limits to ISS civilian traffic, so, er... no
Well if they dont claim that region what right do they have to declare it off limits?
Because since they don't claim the system, they don't want *ISS* civilians to go there and cause more political problems.
---------------------- sb404 Director
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Butter Dog
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 16:45:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Lt Hole
Looks like ISS have made more friends in the Eve universe.
You can count the number of alliances actively hostile toward us on one deformed hand.
Namely:
* Curse Coalition * CDC <-- the ones we actually respect for being great PvPers and not trying to intellectualise hauler ganks like you guys * And... er... oh, thats its
I'm sure the CVA thing will be resolved diplomatically by those who do that sort of thing.
Of course, CC just hop on *any* thread with ISS in the title, regardless of involvement they may or may not have with the issues at hand.
You really are low-class forum w****s. Sharpen your act up please.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Jacob Majestic
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 16:49:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Butter Dog * CDC <-- the ones we actually respect for being great PvPers and not trying to intellectualise hauler ganks like you guys
This is actually a good point. I need to stop referring to CC and CDC in the same breath.
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Lt Hole
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 16:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Butter Dog * CDC <-- the ones we actually respect for being great PvPers and not trying to intellectualise hauler ganks like you guys
This is actually a good point. I need to stop referring to CC and CDC in the same breath.
Divide and conquer.
Nice try.
I wonder if it will work?
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Butter Dog
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 17:04:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lt Hole
Divide and conquer.
Nice try.
I wonder if it will work?
I was merely highlighting the difference in CC and CDC approach.
CC = forum flame against ISS, spout crap trying to justify their lack of diplomatic skills, penchant for hauler ganking then claim its all about 'anti-imperialism' etc etc
CDC = straight talking 0.0 pvpers who kill us for fun
Who would you respect more? Not a hard question to answer - but even so I'll provide a hint: not CC.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
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Termanator
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 17:16:00 -
[61]
Center For Disease Creation, Can only Wish CVA the Best of Luck in there "Quest" to Try and make ISS look small on the Public Forums . I Thank Butter Dog for his kind words About us and wish them the best of luck.
We as an alliance have no intrest in this Post OR of its outcome so all this CDC Blah Blah. To post with Alts there is really no need post with your mains.
As for EyeShadow I respect your views of us, but we cant help being a good opponent
GL Guys have fun
*The Priory Director*
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Lt Hole
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 18:00:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Butter Dog
I was merely highlighting the difference in CC and CDC approach.
CC = forum flame against ISS, spout crap trying to justify their lack of diplomatic skills, penchant for hauler ganking then claim its all about 'anti-imperialism' etc etc
CDC = straight talking 0.0 pvpers who kill us for fun
Who would you respect more? Not a hard question to answer - but even so I'll provide a hint: not CC.
Translation:
"You make us look bad so we hate you more."
Cool! Thanks for the compliment!
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Lt Hole
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 18:06:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Eyeshadow
You misunderstand my post, good sir. It was not meant as a threat or bullying. I am a man of war, it is true, but id still rather limit my targets to persons of less "honourable" (so to speak, the amarr empire means nothing to me unless they pay me to do something) backgrounds, namely pirates and those rogues in the Curse Coalition and Centre for Disease Creation.
Hey! I'm a ROGUE!
Yehaaa!!!
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Termanator
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 18:12:00 -
[64]
Dude put a sock in it.
*The Priory Director*
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Lt Hole
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 18:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Termanator Dude put a sock in it.
Orders received and understood!
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samba mk2
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 19:13:00 -
[66]
let the best side win or sort it diplomaticaly and lt hole u make yourself look bad
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4th Dominion
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 19:17:00 -
[67]
U show them Butter, who the real power in the region is.
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maGz
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 19:22:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Lt Hole
Divide and conquer.
Nice try.
I wonder if it will work?
I was merely highlighting the difference in CC and CDC approach.
CC = forum flame against ISS, spout crap trying to justify their lack of diplomatic skills, penchant for hauler ganking then claim its all about 'anti-imperialism' etc etc
CDC = straight talking 0.0 pvpers who kill us for fun
Who would you respect more? Not a hard question to answer - but even so I'll provide a hint: not CC.
<3 Butter... Thanks for the kind words m8, reminds that I've didn't get my usual quota of ISS-corpses this month ______________________
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Count TaSessine
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:00:00 -
[69]
Sorry about this late reply from me, but I've quite literally been in my deathbed, it felt like it anyway, with a throat infection these last 24 hours
Regrettably, this incident is a direct result of misunderstanding due to communication from Aralis. Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
CVA have not previously laid claim to this area through any recognisable means: - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans include 3KB-10 - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans to include Q-6LGI constellation - Not claimed the area on the territorial map - Not claimed soverignty using POS in the constellation in question - Not claimed sovreighty using pos even the neighbouring constellation
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
If CVA properly claim the area on the Territorial map or claim sovereignty, ISS will cease placing POS in other systems in the Q-6LGI constellation.
Chairman, ISS
|
Aralis
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:16:00 -
[70]
Thank you for your response and sympathies on your illness.
Obviously this is unsatisfactory and means war starting now.
I would say in passing that I find the extent of your confusion over our claim bizarre - when it is actually clear. You say we claim out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10 (correctly). And yet do not regard 3kb-10 as part of our claim.
War is on.
Originally by: Count TaSessine Sorry about this late reply from me, but I've quite literally been in my deathbed, it felt like it anyway, with a throat infection these last 24 hours
Regrettably, this incident is a direct result of misunderstanding due to communication from Aralis. Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
CVA have not previously laid claim to this area through any recognisable means: - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans include 3KB-10 - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans to include Q-6LGI constellation - Not claimed the area on the territorial map - Not claimed soverignty using POS in the constellation in question - Not claimed sovreighty using pos even the neighbouring constellation
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
If CVA properly claim the area on the Territorial map or claim sovereignty, ISS will cease placing POS in other systems in the Q-6LGI constellation.
|
|
Darkcor
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Posted - 2006.04.19 20:37:00 -
[71]
It is now quite evident it was quite blatant trickery on the part ISS trying to claim systems that weren't theirs. ISS has now no sense of neutrality now that they are against all that is good and holy of the Empire.
ISS has taken sides, and now to true warrior of the empire will rest until ISS is wiped off the map. Any enemy of CVA is an enemy of the Amarrian empire. This is the beginning of the end of ISS.
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Ikvar
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:41:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Aralis Thank you for your response and sympathies on your illness.
Obviously this is unsatisfactory and means war starting now.
I would say in passing that I find the extent of your confusion over our claim bizarre - when it is actually clear. You say we claim out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10 (correctly). And yet do not regard 3kb-10 as part of our claim.
War is on.
Originally by: Count TaSessine Sorry about this late reply from me, but I've quite literally been in my deathbed, it felt like it anyway, with a throat infection these last 24 hours
Regrettably, this incident is a direct result of misunderstanding due to communication from Aralis. Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
CVA have not previously laid claim to this area through any recognisable means: - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans include 3KB-10 - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans to include Q-6LGI constellation - Not claimed the area on the territorial map - Not claimed soverignty using POS in the constellation in question - Not claimed sovreighty using pos even the neighbouring constellation
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
If CVA properly claim the area on the Territorial map or claim sovereignty, ISS will cease placing POS in other systems in the Q-6LGI constellation.
Originally by: xsolarisx eve-online takes money out my credit card each month without my permission
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Chain Gang
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:42:00 -
[73]
Quote: Thank you for your response and sympathies on your illness.
Obviously this is unsatisfactory and means war starting now.
I would say in passing that I find the extent of your confusion over our claim bizarre - when it is actually clear. You say we claim out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10 (correctly). And yet do not regard 3kb-10 as part of our claim.
War is on.
As if you weren't looking for it ....... You wanted war and tried to hatch some stupid plot to justify it...
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Petrus Sednanref
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:44:00 -
[74]
I think the real difference is about the interpretation of the following:
ISS - area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10' CVA - area including f-yh5b and 3kb-10
It really is a misunderstanding, that now CVA doesn't want to admit.
Originally by: Aralis Thank you for your response and sympathies on your illness.
Obviously this is unsatisfactory and means war starting now.
I would say in passing that I find the extent of your confusion over our claim bizarre - when it is actually clear. You say we claim out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10 (correctly). And yet do not regard 3kb-10 as part of our claim.
War is on.
Originally by: Count TaSessine Sorry about this late reply from me, but I've quite literally been in my deathbed, it felt like it anyway, with a throat infection these last 24 hours
Regrettably, this incident is a direct result of misunderstanding due to communication from Aralis. Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
CVA have not previously laid claim to this area through any recognisable means: - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans include 3KB-10 - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans to include Q-6LGI constellation - Not claimed the area on the territorial map - Not claimed soverignty using POS in the constellation in question - Not claimed sovreighty using pos even the neighbouring constellation
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
If CVA properly claim the area on the Territorial map or claim sovereignty, ISS will cease placing POS in other systems in the Q-6LGI constellation.
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Ka'lorn Font'a
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:45:00 -
[75]
I find it amusing, yet at the same time, annoying.
Such a 'minor' dispute should be resolved in private, not over public comms channels and the FTL Network. This should be done behind closed doors, and the result should not be war.
As I recall, from my past, the CVA's original claim in Providence was the 'prosperity and open access' to those whom don't pirate (again, as I recall). It seems a somewhat contradiction that one of the most 'neutral' alliances in the game is, apparently, 'forbidden' access to the area.
I speak as my own, and as a friend Aralis - War is not the course of action you seek.
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Witch Doctor
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:46:00 -
[76]
I was about to put down my popcorn on page 2, but now ...
[moves off-vid to reach for another bag]
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Reash
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 20:46:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Petrus Sednanref I think the real difference is about the interpretation of the following:
ISS - area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10' CVA - area including f-yh5b and 3kb-10
It really is a misunderstanding, that now CVA doesn't want to admit.
Originally by: Aralis Thank you for your response and sympathies on your illness.
Obviously this is unsatisfactory and means war starting now.
I would say in passing that I find the extent of your confusion over our claim bizarre - when it is actually clear. You say we claim out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10 (correctly). And yet do not regard 3kb-10 as part of our claim.
War is on.
Originally by: Count TaSessine Sorry about this late reply from me, but I've quite literally been in my deathbed, it felt like it anyway, with a throat infection these last 24 hours
Regrettably, this incident is a direct result of misunderstanding due to communication from Aralis. Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
CVA have not previously laid claim to this area through any recognisable means: - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans include 3KB-10 - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans to include Q-6LGI constellation - Not claimed the area on the territorial map - Not claimed soverignty using POS in the constellation in question - Not claimed sovreighty using pos even the neighbouring constellation
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
If CVA properly claim the area on the Territorial map or claim sovereignty, ISS will cease placing POS in other systems in the Q-6LGI constellation.
I'm sure sure CVA understands its a mis understanding....its the refual to rectify the misunderstanding that CVA has a problem with.
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Draximus Cane
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Posted - 2006.04.19 20:55:00 -
[78]
Although we have accepted some of these enslavers of my people into our fold, I have long been telling Seleene that they can not be trusted and they speak with forked toungues
Perhaps now you will listen to me Seleene? -------------------------------------------------
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:39:00 -
[79]
So, is the final word on the matter that CVA will be shooting ISS? We have a clear policy on not shooting first. We would be saddened if we had to treat people with whom we had cordial relations as we would a pirate organisation. Perhaps it would be worth being careful that no hostilities were exchanged until there were some clarity that the situation could not be resolved in a satisfactory fashion? -- We are recruiting
We sell carriers. |
Princess Morenta
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:40:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Princess Morenta on 19/04/2006 21:40:41
Originally by: Ka'lorn Font'a I find it amusing, yet at the same time, annoying.
Such a 'minor' dispute should be resolved in private, not over public comms channels and the FTL Network. This should be done behind closed doors, and the result should not be war.
As I recall, from my past, the CVA's original claim in Providence was the 'prosperity and open access' to those whom don't pirate (again, as I recall). It seems a somewhat contradiction that one of the most 'neutral' alliances in the game is, apparently, 'forbidden' access to the area.
I speak as my own, and as a friend Aralis - War is not the course of action you seek.
Err the neutrality of ISS went out of the window when they climbed into bed with BOB and started becoming lackeys to the alliances.....
Whats so Neutral about ISS is the fact they are like ****s - they will sleep with any alliance to achieve their goals.
TRUST Were in fact neutral, its a shame their outpost was forced to change hands to these asshats.
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Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:41:00 -
[81]
At this time I would implore ISS to stick to their neutrality which as come into question lately and pull out of 3kb-10 as was previously requested!
There could still be a chance of preventing this disaster! www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:42:00 -
[82]
Quote: Err the neutrality of ISS went out of the window when they climbed into bed with BOB and started becoming lackeys to the alliances.....
And don't forget .... they are G's Trust military wing and sleep with GM's..
Get Real ..... the CVA wanted a fight and instead of just sending Count an Eve mail they ran to the boards to try and justify it ...
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Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:42:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Reash on 19/04/2006 21:43:01
Originally by: James Lyrus So, is the final word on the matter that CVA will be shooting ISS? We have a clear policy on not shooting first. We would be saddened if we had to treat people with whom we had cordial relations as we would a pirate organisation. Perhaps it would be worth being careful that no hostilities were exchanged until there were some clarity that the situation could not be resolved in a satisfactory fashion?
Several ISS ships have already been destroyed, the choice was yours and you picked war.
Quote: War is on.
The boss has spoken
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:44:00 -
[84]
I think there is a general consensus that CVA were looking for a war.
While I can say with certainty that my alliance avoids war at all costs, there are only so many times one can dodge a bullet when someone is determined to shoot you.
Oh well, see you around CVA.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:51:00 -
[85]
Oh well, that's a shame.
Are you planning to play this out on the Empire front as well? -- We are recruiting
We sell carriers. |
Christa Larne
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Posted - 2006.04.19 21:53:00 -
[86]
/me breaks open a bottle and sits back to watch the destruction of CVA.
And ISS, once you have taken over CVA's Outpost at the end of the war, can you please rename it to something sensible - like "Freedom Station"?
Thanks.
(Awaits orders as to whether Ushra'Khan will be taking part in this glorious debacle.) -----------------------------------------------
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Reash
|
Posted - 2006.04.19 21:54:00 -
[87]
Originally by: James Lyrus Oh well, that's a shame.
Are you planning to play this out on the Empire front as well?
Whatever it takes to have you remove your claim on our space.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:02:00 -
[88]
CVA's stance against our client has been noted. -
Who is the MC? Watch! |
Nazir alHami
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:02:00 -
[89]
This is a tragedy. The proximity of CVA space to the ISS project led me to believe that Providence would become an amazing source of wealth and be a model for the development of 0.0. This was, frankly, the worse thing I could have imagine for it, and the outcome will affect my (and undoubtedly a great deal of others') future plans. With hostilities allready underway it is clearly too late for war to be prevented, so I can only hope that this conflict is resolved quickly and with a minimum of loss for both sides.
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Thesper
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:05:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Reash
Originally by: James Lyrus Oh well, that's a shame.
Are you planning to play this out on the Empire front as well?
Whatever it takes to have you remove your claim on our space.
Have you tried asking ISS to move the POS yet?
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:08:00 -
[91]
Quote: ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
If CVA properly claim the area on the Territorial map or claim sovereignty, ISS will cease placing POS in other systems in the Q-6LGI constellation.
Seems like common sense ... CVA wanted a fight and decided to whine to the forums ....
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Jacob Majestic
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:08:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Reash Whatever it takes to have you remove your claim on our space.
1. CVA operates on a free-space policy with regards to neutrals. Confirm/Deny
2. ISS actively sought to discover the boundaries of CVA's claims before placing any POSses so as to not step on anyone's toes. Confirm/Deny
3. ISS has agreeably complied in all other cases where ISS POSses were viewed as infringing CVA space. Confirm/Deny
4. The proper place to resolve diplomatic incidents of this nature is through EVE-mail rather than on Galnet. Confirm/Deny
. . .
5. CVA is manufacturing a diplomatic incident so they can shoot at ISS haulers. Confirm/Deny
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CHAOS100
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:08:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Christa Larne /me breaks open a bottle and sits back to watch the destruction of CVA.
Wasn't that supposed to happen back in October?
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Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:11:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Count TaSessine the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
Porbably that one
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:15:00 -
[95]
Aralis, a note on semantics for the future: The word "to" does not mean "to and including" and in general speach the latter interpretation is often left for the communicating parts. In more formal circumstances, these kinds of missinterpretations where the informing party is imprecise enough to leave "including" unspoken, there will inevitably be conflicts of meaning where the recieving party interpret the words spoken from his own point of view. In this case the ISS interpreted "to" as stating the closest system allowed.
Regardless, keep this in mind until next time.
Latest EVE musing (MC-boards) |
Jacob Majestic
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:18:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 19/04/2006 22:19:00
Originally by: Reash Porbably that one
6. It is more convenient to relocate a couple of stupid control towers than it is to fight a war. Confirm/Deny
7. The fact that CVA wasted no time in ganking ISS pilots (as reported by CVA pilots in this very Galnet channel) proves that if they go to war with ISS that they're just in it for the ganks. Confirm/Deny
8. This whole war thing is a bunch of rubbish that impoverishes both parties and enriches neither. Confirm/Deny
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samba mk2
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:23:00 -
[97]
this thread just goes on and on, very entertaining whatever the outcome
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The Cosmopolite
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:33:00 -
[98]
Jericho Fraction expresses its support for the ISS program of space development and utilisation. We urge a peaceful solution to this senseless argument over territory that should be considered open to all.
Imperial expansion in the Providence region has long been a blight in our eyes but at least ameliorated by promises of openness and free trade. Bereft of that scanty, evanescent covering, it now seems to be little more than a desire to exert control in the name of an archaic and dying order.
We earnestly hope that wiser heads will prevail and prove that this is not so. With the first shots from these brigands and renegade privateers already resulting in losses to a trade-oriented organisation, we fear that we will not see such a proof.
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:35:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
6. It is more convenient to relocate a couple of stupid control towers than it is to fight a war. Confirm/Deny
Confirm. So why were the stations not moved?
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
7. The fact that CVA wasted no time in ganking ISS pilots (as reported by CVA pilots in this very Galnet channel) proves that if they go to war with ISS that they're just in it for the ganks. Confirm/Deny
Deny. One does not make war with a significantly larger alliance with a contracted defensive force the likes of Mercenary Coalition for "ganks."
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
8. This whole war thing is a bunch of rubbish that impoverishes both parties and enriches neither. Confirm/Deny
That remains to be seen.
I think a lot of folks need to go back and read from the beginning. There are a lot of redundant questions and incorrect assumptions taking place here. I'm willing to accept that there may have been a misunderstanding as to where CVA territory ends. What is not acceptable is that when the misunderstanding is pointed out, nothing is done about it.
The issue was approached privately; we were ignored. The issue was made public; we were rebuffed.
Now the time has come for decisive action. I suppose any speculation as to whether or not we're up to the task will be answered in the coming weeks.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:42:00 -
[100]
Quote: ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'
This was your agreement ............ you changed the rules ..... live with it.
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Jacob Majestic
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Posted - 2006.04.19 22:53:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
6. It is more convenient to relocate a couple of stupid control towers than it is to fight a war. Confirm/Deny
Confirm. So why were the stations not moved?
This takes one and only one EVEmail to sort out. The Curse Coalition, which has all but sworn themselves to be our eternal enemy, requested that we respect their territorial claim to Curse. We have complied and have made it know to the entire alliance that civilian ISS traffic is not to pass through Curse. If we deal in such a way with an enemy, why do you think we would not extend similar courtesy to a friend?
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
7. The fact that CVA wasted no time in ganking ISS pilots (as reported by CVA pilots in this very Galnet channel) proves that if they go to war with ISS that they're just in it for the ganks. Confirm/Deny
Deny. One does not make war with a significantly larger alliance with a contracted defensive force the likes of Mercenary Coalition for "ganks."
So what's it over? One stinking control tower in a nonsense system in Providence, plus one simple misunderstanding? I ensure you that I am nowhere near as dumb as I look.
Originally by: Garreck The issue was approached privately; we were ignored. The issue was made public; we were rebuffed.
So sue me if I'm cold to CVA's somewhat undiplomatic post on Galnet...
Originally by: Garreck Now the time has come for decisive action. I suppose any speculation as to whether or not we're up to the task will be answered in the coming weeks.
I've got a better idea. How about rather than shooting at each other, we all get rich and ride off into the sunset?
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:12:00 -
[102]
I urge the CVA to resolve this issue through diplomacy. All ready, we have an ISSN member stating that they do not want this war, and I believe that the tiniest bit of negotiation is all that is needed for them to move their towers out of this system.
This is tarnishing your reputation, CVA.
I also urge the ISS to move the towers out. You do not have to wait for the CVA to contact you, and you can unilaterally end this war by moving out. Surely, this single system (as I understand it) isn't worth fighthing over?
You have much trust and respect to gain by this, ISS. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:15:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Beringe I urge the CVA to resolve this issue through diplomacy. All ready, we have an ISSN member stating that they do not want this war, and I believe that the tiniest bit of negotiation is all that is needed for them to move their towers out of this system.
This is tarnishing your reputation, CVA.
I also urge the ISS to move the towers out. You do not have to wait for the CVA to contact you, and you can unilaterally end this war by moving out. Surely, this single system (as I understand it) isn't worth fighthing over?
You have much trust and respect to gain by this, ISS.
This is the last time i will post in this thread as i'm getting tired of seeing things repeated, ISS have been asked to remove the POS, they refused, they refused in this thread, if they will not respond to diplomatic negotiations then they shall have to deal with the diplomatic lasers.
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Azeusus
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:15:00 -
[104]
oh this is turning out to be a very interesting read, all 4 pages read and now the drama is about to get interesting
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:19:00 -
[105]
For the record, I *do* think its a shame that the end result is a standings change between ISS and CVA.
Partly this is for personal reasons, as I have flown with CVA pilots before and have no wish to fight them myself, and partly because on a political level it makes no sense.
The PvPers in ISSN are already running exploratory gangs in CVA space (I'm not in them for now, I want to see how this plays out first), so for the ISSN it just means more targets and they don't really mind either way (indeed I'm sure they are secretly delighted since pirate pickings in the HED pipe have been slim recently).
But for the ISS and the CVA, this reflects poorly on both of us I believe. It simply did not need to happen.
That said, if is conflict you wish for, we in the ISSN have a responsibility to our alliance to respond with equal or greater force, no matter my personal feelings for the CVA.
Though I will not deny I feel it is a waste of resources which could be better spend protecting neutral travellers in 0.0 space against pirates.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:21:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 19/04/2006 23:23:37 You also might want to look at the fact that BDCI has gathered quite a few of your old corp and alliance mates. High ranking ones at that who have led your fleets and even possibly trained you. If war does come and we are forced to open fire. They know you they know how you operate. They know where you operate. As much as they dont want to shoot you as friends and everything our clients wishes come first. Blood will be spilt on both sides. But think about the advantage it gives your enemies. Dont get me wrong more red is good. But it can be easily avoidable here.
And its amazing how you will be so quick to start a war over a misunderstanding of words.
And of course i am slow to see the comms so it looks like their will be more red to shoot.
Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Goodtime Girl
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:25:00 -
[107]
I hear Mongo has already fitted the "Duck Shootin Guns"
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Emilia Hussain
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:54:00 -
[108]
Quote: You also might want to look at the fact that BDCI has gathered quite a few of your old corp and alliance mates. High ranking ones at that who have led your fleets and even possibly trained you
Wonder where their first loyalty lies. To the Empire and those who work to support it ...or "the other one" ?
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Derran
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Posted - 2006.04.19 23:57:00 -
[109]
Amarrians have always been stubborn and single minded so their agressive behavior is no surprise to me. CVA's language in their statement looks pretty unclear so I don't consider ISS to be at fault at all. CVA should have clearly and specifically stated it and not left it open to interpretation.
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Ka'lorn Font'a
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:00:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Emilia Hussain
Quote: You also might want to look at the fact that BDCI has gathered quite a few of your old corp and alliance mates. High ranking ones at that who have led your fleets and even possibly trained you
Wonder where their first loyalty lies. To the Empire and those who work to support it ...or "the other one" ?
I assure you, if it comes to the stage whereby I have the locals of Providence, and indeed the CVA - turning their guns on me, as much as I don't *want* to fight the CVA (and relatedly so, my old alliance and friends), I will. And with that, I believe, with all my heart, and hope - that the friends I have within the CVA, and within Providence (which I originally helped 'secure' for many months), would understand that.
The same goes for Golan, for Caya, and for Vladic - we hoped this day would not arise, now it seems there is no way to avert it.
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Sushi Tanaka
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:25:00 -
[111]
So, if I follow:
ISS: What are your expansion plans? CVA: Heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10. ISS: Cool. (Hey guys, 3KB-10 is fair game!) ... a few months later: CVA: Um, why did you put up a POS in 3KB? ISS: You didn't want it, so we took it! CVA: That's on our border and we might keep going that way. ISS: "to" doesn't mean "including" - you lose! CVA: Could you remove it please? ISS: NO! We need more systems, our industrial corps love the fuel discount too much! CVA: Ok, this is war. ISS: We don't want to fight you, but we have to defend our space! *whistles* MC: Yes mas'a? ISS: Sick 'em, boy!
Sound about right to you all? |
Angry Dan
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:25:00 -
[112]
The Huzzah Federation takes a keen intrest in this matter. ISS have decided that they wish to deploy a starbase near our border. Huzzah Federation favours any developement that would bring properity to Providence.
However. We do not like seeing our allies fight. Ideally, we would prefer that this issue was resolved peacefully. If mediation is required, I am willing to off my services as a neutral mediator.
Huzzah Federation will stay neutral in this matter. However, should the fighting spill over our borders, or should our lawful trade be harrassed, we will reconsider our neutral position.
++++++++++++++++++++ Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Widowmakers director Fear my kneepads of allure!
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:34:00 -
[113]
Quote: So, if I follow:
ISS: What are your expansion plans? CVA: Heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10. ISS: Cool. (Hey guys, 3KB-10 is fair game!) ... a few months later: CVA: Um, why did you put up a POS in 3KB? ISS: You didn't want it, so we took it! CVA: That's on our border and we might keep going that way. ISS: "to" doesn't mean "including" - you lose! CVA: Could you remove it please? ISS: NO! We need more systems, our industrial corps love the fuel discount too much! CVA: Ok, this is war. ISS: We don't want to fight you, but we have to defend our space! *whistles* MC: Yes mas'a? ISS: Sick 'em, boy!
Sound about right to you all?
Should read ......
So, if I follow:
ISS: What are your expansion plans? CVA: Heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10. Beyond that we have no interest. ISS: Cool. 3KB-10 is fair game!) ... a few months later: and several billion in isk CVA: Um, why did you put up a POS in 3KB? ISS: You didn't want it, and 3 months ago you agreed to our plan CVA: Well we have changed our minds and want all of the map. ISS: Sorry but you agreed the plan CVA: I want it all ISS: Sorry but its unclaimed space. CVA: Ok, this is war, mummy get my teddy bear and rattle ISS: We don't want to fight you, but we have to defend ourselves
Thats about right
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Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:34:00 -
[114]
I hope lord Aralis will forgive me as I attempt to enlighten this Deteis.
Originally by: Jacob Majestic 1. CVA operates on a free-space policy with regards to neutrals. Confirm/Deny
Confirmed, we do not fire upon neutrals. We allow all who are law abiding to mine/npc in our space. However to erect a starbase requires permission, and each starbase charter is granted on a case-by-case basis. Under no circumstances are they permitted to actualy claim sovereginty.
Quote:
2. ISS actively sought to discover the boundaries of CVA's claims before placing any POSses so as to not step on anyone's toes. Confirm/Deny
Confirmed
Quote:
3. ISS has agreeably complied in all other cases where ISS POSses were viewed as infringing CVA space. Confirm/Deny
I can't speak for all cases, but they have complied in at least one case I know of.
Quote:
4. The proper place to resolve diplomatic incidents of this nature is through EVE-mail rather than on Galnet. Confirm/Deny
Confirm, which is why our Aralis initiated contect via eve-mail before turning to galnet as a last resort to get ISS attention and avoid military conflict. After the galnet communique there was then what appeared to be a hopeful cordial conversation between the parties, where I believe the ISS diplomat had to consult with others then get back to Aralis. The ISS response was not personaly delivered through other channels, but instead was posted to Galnet by the ISS CEO. I suggest you ask your own leadership why it was handled this way.
Quote:
5. CVA is manufacturing a diplomatic incident so they can shoot at ISS haulers. Confirm/Deny
Emphatically denied. CVA has in fact has provided escort and assisted ISS pilots in CVA space on numerous occasions against pirates and other miscreants. There is no glory or challenge in shooting at haulers.
Quote:
So what's it over? One stinking control tower in a nonsense system in Providence, plus one simple misunderstanding? I ensure you that I am nowhere near as dumb as I look.
I appreciate in an organization as large as yours you may not be privvy to all the operational details. This is a little more than a small tower as in the prior incidenct. We are talking about a sovgrinty claim in one system and 4 large towers with no industry of note and scores of weapon emplacements. As we tried to contact an ISS representative and were being ignored, more weapon batteries were being onlined.
I'm just a soldier, but from where I sit it looks to me that ISS has identified a juicy area of CVA space and is making a play to contest it, banking on their numbers, resources, and military connections to push us aside and make us go away.
We are not some nomadic group of ruffians here for kicks. We are on a Holy mission. We have fought and bled for the dream of a lawful, secure, and prosperous lower Domain/Providence long before ISS was a twinkle in anyone's eye. We will continue to do so long after ISS fades into the sands of time.
While I do not presume to speak for Aralis, I am fairly confident that there could still be a resolution if there was any indication from ISS leadership of good faith-intention to remove their claims.
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Zaphod Jones
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:37:00 -
[115]
Quting from a post found in Crime and Punishment, personally I would prefer to have IIS back in EC-P8R as the pirate situation theer is relly getting outo f hand, and we could do with some more hands-on neutrailty from ISS
Originally by: Lord Wibblywobbly
While ISS civilian traffic is not permitted through Doril, ISS exist in a state of 0.0 war with CC, at their choosing rather than ours, so military incursions are permitted whilst they are actively hostile toward us.
Please feel free to run riot across the Curse region - NPCers, Miners, whatever, just kill them all
Celtic Anarchy are recruiting http://kos.griefwatch.net |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:37:00 -
[116]
Sorry CVA ... you agreed and stated you claim area ... dont start moaning because you now decide you want more ...
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Princess Morenta
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:48:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Sushi Tanaka So, if I follow:
ISS: What are your expansion plans? CVA: Heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10. ISS: Cool. (Hey guys, 3KB-10 is fair game!) ... a few months later: CVA: Um, why did you put up a POS in 3KB? ISS: You didn't want it, so we took it! CVA: That's on our border and we might keep going that way. ISS: "to" doesn't mean "including" - you lose! CVA: Could you remove it please? ISS: NO! We need more systems, our industrial corps love the fuel discount too much! CVA: Ok, this is war. ISS: We don't want to fight you, but we have to defend our space! *whistles* MC: Yes mas'a? ISS: Sick 'em, boy!
Sound about right to you all?
Sounds about right to me.. You will die as you come..
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Angry Dan
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Posted - 2006.04.20 00:59:00 -
[118]
On a personal note, so don't confuse this one with offical Huzzah policy (my last missive donotes that).
Bad move ISS. A threat to CVA's security is a threat to Huzzah's security. Not something we like to see.
We might be neutral, but a threat to our security will be watched INTENTLY. Take some friendly advice here. Get back to that table, and do it fast. ++++++++++++++++++++ Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Widowmakers director Fear my kneepads of allure!
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:03:00 -
[119]
Quote: "Regrettably, this incident is a direct result of misunderstanding due to communication from Aralis. Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
A question for the Count. You state first you understood the CVA was expanding out TO 3kb-10. Yet afterwards you state you placed your POS's in 3kb-10 as an OUT OF.
If the CVA indicated they were expanding out TO 3kb-10 doesn't the word TO imply within that system as well?
I don't know about you but the word TO implies just that.
You're splitting hairs claiming this is a matter of semantics. CVA told ISS they were expanding out TO 3kb-10 and ISS went ahead and dropped POS's there anyway.
It seems pretty clear this was an attempt to instigate a war. The CVA has peacefully kept the spacelanes in Providence clear for over a year. Now the ISS comes in (after calling it a renegade land in your IPO) and takes advantage of the CVA's hard work by plopping POS's and an Outpost in the region.
If ISS truly intended to tame a renegade region of space would they not have chosen an area that was NOT already under the protection of an honorable alliance, that was already open to all, that was already the home of an outpost and POS's and already routinely patrolled?
Of course they would've.
But instead ISS picked the system the CVA said they were expanding out TO and dropped four POS's there.
Seems pretty clear what happend to me.
Archbishop
These comments are my own and in no way represent those of my corporation or alliance
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:09:00 -
[120]
^^ LMAO @ HIM
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:11:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Ka'lorn Font'a
Originally by: Emilia Hussain
Quote: You also might want to look at the fact that BDCI has gathered quite a few of your old corp and alliance mates. High ranking ones at that who have led your fleets and even possibly trained you
Wonder where their first loyalty lies. To the Empire and those who work to support it ...or "the other one" ?
I assure you, if it comes to the stage whereby I have the locals of Providence, and indeed the CVA - turning their guns on me, as much as I don't *want* to fight the CVA (and relatedly so, my old alliance and friends), I will. And with that, I believe, with all my heart, and hope - that the friends I have within the CVA, and within Providence (which I originally helped 'secure' for many months), would understand that.
The same goes for Golan, for Caya, and for Vladic - we hoped this day would not arise, now it seems there is no way to avert it.
Not that anyone would care but that would be the biggest personal disapointment in my whole career as it was the 1st Praetorian Guard that brought the later Grand Admiral and bearer of the Cross of the Sacred Throne Golan Trevize into the Amarr loyalist camp: If he and the other 'Amarr loyalists' have fallen that deeply and have sold their loyalty to the Empire for a handfull of ISK. In the past at least Golan always pledged that he would *never* shoot his old comrades - and we believed he was telling the truth.
Now recruiting!
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Aran Cole
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:13:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Chain Gang ^^ LMAO @ HIM
You shut your filthy mouth and address your betters with respect _______________________
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:13:00 -
[123]
Studying an ancient text dictionary (Websters Online) I've found reference to the word TO along with a definition.
Quote:
3 entries found for to.
Main Entry: 1to Pronunciation: t&, tu, 'tn Function: preposition Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tO; akin to Old High German zuo to, Latin donec as long as, until 1 a -- used as a function word to indicate movement or an action or condition suggestive of movement toward a place, person, or thing reached <drove to the city> <went back to the original idea> b -- used as a function word to indicate direction <a mile to the south> <turned his back to the door> <a tendency to silliness> c -- used as a function word to indicate contact or proximity <applied polish to the table> <put her hand to her heart> d (1) -- used as a function word to indicate the place or point that is the far limit <100 miles to the nearest town> (2) -- used as a function word to indicate the limit of extent <stripped to the waist> e -- used as a function word to indicate relative position <perpendicular to the floor>
I'll point out the first one.
.. or a thing reached....
.... used as a function word to indicate contact or proximity ......
.... used as a function word to indicate the place or point that is the far limit .....
.... used as a functin word to indicate the limit of extent ......
It sure appears the word TO indicates a point the CVA planned to expand TO. Otherwise they'd have said "were going to expand just short of xxxxx" or "were going to expand to near xxxxx". No they said TO that system.
It appears ISS has made a mistake. The honorable thing to do would be to admit they misunderstood what the CVA was saying and move the conflicted POS's.
Archbishop
These views are my own and are not representative of my corporation or alliance
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:30:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Nyphur on 20/04/2006 01:33:31
Semantics aside, building a station on either side of someone else's borders is a bit testy. As I understand it, the ISS policy should now be to remove the POS if CVA co-operate and call a cease-fire while they are moved. However, I'm sure the POS owners are a bit miffed at the prospect of moving.
I'm not an official and perhaps a bit out of the loop, though I do know that in the ISS we do not claim and hold our own space, currently. Unless that policy has changed recently, I'm pretty sure CVA can claim whatever systems they want at whatever stage they want and we pretty much have to comply. That is, assuming nobody had escalated prematurely to hostilities. That complicates things, I'd imagine.
As I said, I'm not an ISS official, just another CEO of a small corp within the ISS. I may not be up to date on the situation or policies.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Audrea
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:38:00 -
[125]
You heard HF's official standings from HF representatives, if I may add my personal understandings and views (which I think many share):
Originally by: Sushi Tanaka So, if I follow:
ISS: What are your expansion plans? CVA: Heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10. ISS: Cool. (Hey guys, 3KB-10 is fair game!) ... a few months later: CVA: Um, why did you put up a POS in 3KB? ISS: You didn't want it, so we took it! CVA: That's on our border and we might keep going that way. ISS: "to" doesn't mean "including" - you lose! CVA: Could you remove it please? ISS: NO! We need more systems, our industrial corps love the fuel discount too much! CVA: Ok, this is war. ISS: We don't want to fight you, but we have to defend our space! *whistles* MC: Yes mas'a? ISS: Sick 'em, boy!
Sound about right to you all?
This what it looks like - simple misunderstanding on ISS's side as to what CVA meant. You claim to be neutral party that doesnt look on taking other alliance's space- so so behave like neutrals! move to another system nearby or something.
But no, instead you pull out ISSN and MC from the deep pockets and threat another allaince, with no hostilities towards you at all.
CVA isnt CC/CDC, they actually claim the area, and if that goes on (unfortunate, imo) - you will, in time, realize it was wrong move for both your "neuturality" (which was somewhat tarnished already in EC-P), and your future plans in Providence (how much you think this outpost will be profitable, with neighbor which wont let you live in peace in their claimed space?)
Proove to everyone you truly are neutrals - end this now... ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise. |
Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:43:00 -
[126]
Quote: They Claim that area.
/me looks at the Eve political Map ... no they don't.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:44:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Audrea But no, instead you pull out ISSN and MC from the deep pockets and threat another allaince, with no hostilities towards you at all.
Evidence that the ISS fired first, please. We are a neutral alliance and I'm sure the guys up top would be interested to know if an ISSN pilot fired on CVA before they started shooting at us.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Audrea
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:54:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Audrea But no, instead you pull out ISSN and MC from the deep pockets and threat another allaince, with no hostilities towards you at all.
Evidence that the ISS fired first, please. We are a neutral alliance and I'm sure the guys up top would be interested to know if an ISSN pilot fired on CVA before they started shooting at us.
That wasnt my point - ISS are putting up muscles and refuse to clear the system in question, that is contradictory to your statement of respecting other alliance's claims (btw claiming isnt done only with POSes sovreignty, but also agreement its their territory). ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise. |
Princess Morenta
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Posted - 2006.04.20 01:59:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Audrea But no, instead you pull out ISSN and MC from the deep pockets and threat another allaince, with no hostilities towards you at all.
Evidence that the ISS fired first, please. We are a neutral alliance and I'm sure the guys up top would be interested to know if an ISSN pilot fired on CVA before they started shooting at us.
Also considering you sent a ISSN Navy task force into CVA space doesnt appear too friendly - whether you had intentions to fire or just prance about is irrelevant.
You made a show of force (however little) and was probably going to prey on CVA members/loyalists... I think thats a hostile act... You were in the wrong, you should leave the disputed system - not ruffle up mini naval forces and try start trouble.
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Sushi Tanaka
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Posted - 2006.04.20 02:06:00 -
[130]
CVA stole CC/CDC's daily ISSN frig spawn!
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Ztang Canary
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Posted - 2006.04.20 02:10:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Ztang Canary on 20/04/2006 02:14:10 Earlier today, I took the step of immediately leaving AmDef and CVA due to finding their handling of this matter ill advised, and hasty. Seeing events unfold,and following the debate further, however, I now have to swallow one huge camel, and conclude the opposite. It seems to me that ISS have deliberately misinterpreted CVA's outline, using semantics to force CVA into military response. This, as far as I know, is unheard of coming from an entity that claims to be neutral...I suggest ISS go and look up the word, it should prove useful. Furthermore, utilizing mercenary corporations to further back up their aggression, completely contradicts any credibility. ISS could easily have confirmed whether or not the system was available(and I would think that to be natural, given the last communication on specific systems were several months old), but instead choose to enter and POS the area. In my opinion, ISS must be regarded as imperialistic, employing machines of war(read: MC) in the process.
I offer CVA my unconditional apology for reacting out of hand and prematurely in this matter. My ships, and myself, are at your disposal should you need an extra hand.
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Zrevak Ashek
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Posted - 2006.04.20 02:20:00 -
[132]
Personal note. Is it just me, or did "Merckiller" join ISS Navy? Seems ISS is busy building up a force consisting of old pirates and the likes. It also seems to grow at an alarming rate.
..anyways, I am pretty certain ISS knew their placing of POS's close to CVA claimed space, would **** off CVA (for obvious reasons)
..the immediate threat from MC, right after Aralis posted his warning towards ISS, is also curious and suggest an attempt at gunboat diplomacy.
..also ISS behaviour seem strangley aggressive. And I'm sure the "Ministry of Amarr Secret Services" would find this development interesting.
The Blackwater Brigade |
Sushi Tanaka
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Posted - 2006.04.20 02:38:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Zrevak Ashek Personal note. Is it just me, or did "Merckiller" join ISS Navy? Seems ISS is busy building up a force consisting of old pirates and the likes. It also seems to grow at an alarming rate.
Hmmm...
Originally by: LLucan Dleaur As has already been said, if you feel the need to convert from your pirating ways, we are here to help you out. What's more, there's no need to give up your blood-lust!
Just convo BD, myself or one of the other recruiters. We will oversee your conversion to the other side! And we have plenty of tender recruits for you to indoctrinate into the "Path of Splintered Pods".
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 02:54:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Princess Morenta Also considering you sent a ISSN Navy task force into CVA space doesnt appear too friendly - whether you had intentions to fire or just prance about is irrelevant.
You made a show of force (however little) and was probably going to prey on CVA members/loyalists... I think thats a hostile act... You were in the wrong, you should leave the disputed system - not ruffle up mini naval forces and try start trouble.
Defending ourselves by hunting someone who has destroyed ISS ships or attacking them outright when in a state of declared war is a neutral defense action.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
BlackHorizon
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:10:00 -
[135]
This war is not good for business. I urge all parties involved seek a diplomatic solution.
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betazero
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:14:00 -
[136]
i urge all partys to goto war for the benefit of mankind
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:14:00 -
[137]
Originally by: BlackHorizon This war is not good for business. I urge all parties involved seek a diplomatic solution.
As do I. It's a war over the definition of the word "to". Stranger things have happened, I suppose.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:23:00 -
[138]
Can I get a clear yes or no from both sides about the case I heard that this system in question had already been contested before. IE that ISS placed just 1 pos in the system awhile back, was asked to remove it, and polietly did so.
If this is true then why would they come back and place 4 Large fully armed pos in the very same system? Someone not get the memo? www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:36:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Kular Can I get a clear yes or no from both sides about the case I heard that this system in question had already been contested before. IE that ISS placed just 1 pos in the system awhile back, was asked to remove it, and polietly did so.
If this is true then why would they come back and place 4 Large fully armed pos in the very same system? Someone not get the memo?
Assuming it's true, you have to remember that the ISS is not a single cohesive alliance, we're a civillian megacorp. It's not "The ISS" putting up stations, it's the member corporations putting them up and trying to make their isk.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Sidero
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:37:00 -
[140]
Not that anyone would care, but to me it looks as though ISS is the aggresor here. CVA said to, which to me would mean to inlude, just without the include. I mean when I say I am going to the store, it doesn't mean I am going to stop just short of the store.
ISS seems to be doing what any good tactition would do, surround your enemy then strike. They are slowly gaining control of routes to and from 0.0 which will allow them to be VERY influencial in politics of any region beyond that point. For me personal, it would be disoncerting if someone was setting up well fortified positions along my supply routes, no matter how neutral the claim. Hasn't a similar tactic of using the shroud of neutrality to build significant forces in preperation of attack been used before?
What would I know though, I am a newbie.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:42:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Sidero ISS seems to be doing what any good tactition would do, surround your enemy then strike.
The ISS's neutrality is its defining factor. I'd have a hard time swallowing the idea of the ISS wanting to invade and claim someone else's space - that just doesn't fit in with the charter.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Audrea
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:44:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Audrea on 20/04/2006 03:44:38
Originally by: Sidero Not that anyone would care, but to me it looks as though ISS is the aggresor here. CVA said to, which to me would mean to inlude, just without the include. I mean when I say I am going to the store, it doesn't mean I am going to stop just short of the store.
True, which reminds me when Huzzah and FIX signed cease fire, the spelling was something like "HF space goes from blah blah TO and not including X4-WLO)"
I trust the diplomats used the "not including" phrase for a reason - prolly "TO" means including ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise. |
Rattman
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:53:00 -
[143]
Have to say I am havinga good laugh at this. Seems to me both of them (CVA/ISS) want a fight, why not just start shooting.
ISS or someone in it made a mistake by putting the station up where they shouldn't.
If you are told to count to 10 you go 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. You dont stop at nine.
On the other hand CVA instead talking to someone in ISS with authority and leaving some time to do something about them. Alliance can take a little time to get going, instead they started threatening on the forums.
Seriously start shooting or don't I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing |
Liberia
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:56:00 -
[144]
Quote: "The ISS's neutrality is its defining factor. I'd have a hard time swallowing the idea of the ISS wanting to invade and claim someone else's space - that just doesn't fit in with the charter."
Its pretty obvious ISS made a mistake in interpreting what CVA meant. Arguing about the word "to" is pointless. Admit the mistake and remove the POS its the only honorable thing to do. I trust ISS just misunderstood and will make this right. I hope for everyone they can settle this in the backrooms of diplomacy and avert a pointless war.
Liberia Deathwalkers
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Sidero
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Posted - 2006.04.20 03:58:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Sidero on 20/04/2006 04:03:01 Hey man I am just saying that you guys are not hostile, you are neutral, but for how much longer? How many ships and members can you have before you start pushing around the political weight that you are amassing? Already you have many pirates joining your organization because of the garuntee of PvP in defending your stations, but at what point will those threats cease, and what then? A massive and quite well armed force (thanks to the massive industry you will posses by then) itching for PvP. Your neutrality has a shelf life IMHO, and I wonder if you guys see it aswell?
This incident just seems to demonstrate that in my eyes, but whatever.
EDIT: Reminds me of the US slightly. We had a huge industrial might and all it took was switching into war mode (following pearl harbor) and now we are the most dominant superpower.
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zoolkhan
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Posted - 2006.04.20 04:05:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss If they accidentally placed their stations in CVA space (which has been the same systems for what, a year now?) then it must have been an accident.
...i wonder if the "sovereignity CVA" upper left of the screen maybe have not been visible due to a A.I. bug - because in this thread it is referre to statics and older situations, negotiations offline starmaps and so on.
I am by no means neutral - and if iss blow CVA away, they would have aided the fight against slavery, and sided with us.
But despite that, .. the sovereignity thing.. i mean if i put a tower up in such a system, i would expect to be blown up without a warning within 24 hours. no?
so it was a mistake? not worth to contact cva about prior setting up the tower?
I agree. ISS feel strong, they have powerful contractors and they seem to know it.
regards, v.Adm. ZoolKhan; W're Ushra'Khan - we come for our people!
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JimElNino
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Posted - 2006.04.20 04:57:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Sidero Edited by: Sidero on 20/04/2006 04:03:01 Hey man I am just saying that you guys are not hostile, you are neutral, but for how much longer? How many ships and members can you have before you start pushing around the political weight that you are amassing? Already you have many pirates joining your organization because of the garuntee of PvP in defending your stations, but at what point will those threats cease, and what then? A massive and quite well armed force (thanks to the massive industry you will posses by then) itching for PvP. Your neutrality has a shelf life IMHO, and I wonder if you guys see it aswell?
This incident just seems to demonstrate that in my eyes, but whatever.
EDIT: Reminds me of the US slightly. We had a huge industrial might and all it took was switching into war mode (following pearl harbor) and now we are the most dominant superpower.
This is a lot of conjecturing on your part, I don't think you quite understand how ISS works or the corps that make up the alliance.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 05:31:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Liberia Its pretty obvious ISS made a mistake in interpreting what CVA meant. Arguing about the word "to" is pointless. Admit the mistake and remove the POS. I trust ISS just misunderstood and will make this right. I hope for everyone they can settle this in the backrooms of diplomacy and avert a pointless war.
It's politically not my place to take sides but in spirit I agree with this. If they were my POS, I would voluntarilly remove them and formally appologise to CVA for the misunderstanding. However, they started actually shooting on ISS haulers before trying to work things out sufficiently via diplomatic routes so the owners would probably be ganked when dismantling the stations and have them stolen. CVA asked the owners to remove the POS and, before getting an official response, declared a state of war under which removing the POS is not feasible. Now that communications are well and truly established, they aren't backing down from their war stance, which suggests that the initial reasoning behind the war is completely transparant. They complained that there was no response to negotiations and when the response came late with an acceptable reason, CVA threw their arms in the air and screamed "TOO LATE!".
So if they were my POS, while I would want to remove them, I'm not sure CVA would even let me. They aren't mine, though, and it's up to ISS management and the corp involved to sort things out with CVA, provided they're willing to listen. Given the sharp instigation of hostilities and the unwillingness of CVA to get back to the negotiation table when it came to light that it was a resonable misunderstanding to make (since they don't publicly even claim the system), I would follow the idea that this is a manufactured war. They're not backing down and resorting to negotiation because, frankly, they want to have a jolly good time shooting up some ISS folk.
In situations like these, the reasons given for actually instigating hostilities are almost always meaningless. They're nothing more than an excuse to do what they want and still feel justified. Everyone likes to think they're doing the right thing.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
TFH AGONY
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Posted - 2006.04.20 05:41:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Kular Can I get a clear yes or no from both sides about the case I heard that this system in question had already been contested before. IE that ISS placed just 1 pos in the system awhile back, was asked to remove it, and polietly did so.
If this is true then why would they come back and place 4 Large fully armed pos in the very same system? Someone not get the memo?
Pos's were setup in LF-2KP and removed not 3k were are now. We did follow cva wishes. but there is never an end to this chidilsh dribble. if CVA would like to contact myself or Whoe to talk about "OUR CORPS POS'S" you can do so.
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Whoe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 05:42:00 -
[150]
Is it just me or is it not the best idea to jump a diemos in to the pos laden moon with a little defence in a system where you know the pos's are held by another alliance? Being in ISS and in space regarded as common ISS I don't warp to moons. In as much as I never thought ISS would be in such a bru ha ha over some pos's I hate to see nice ships blown up. Now I hate to say it but those pos's in 3kb were put up by our corp and now we are in the middle of all of this. We had set up in another system and cva had asked us to leave. We had been told by count that the system was ok to set up in so we asked count to look into it. taking the diplomatic route we did vacate the system and we were told 3kb was fine to set up in.
So with this new information we did so. now we have 4 pos's set up there. Being as count has been sick the last couple days I am awaiting the outcome of any diplomatic solution and fortifying defences should an attack come prior to such a solution.
We are there mainly to try to take advantage of the market the new pos's may bring in the area. We are not trying to start any wars but the logistics in getting the pos's to where they are now for a 'lil ol corp like ours is huge and taking them down is double that. We have had the luck to have a dread jump in some fuel for us but that is about all.
the first system we did in fact vacate ISS had previously claimed in september by our forums and info. We are only acting on the best intel we have been able to procure and we are not moving untill either all out war removes us or a diplomatic solution is reached one way or the other.
I appoligise for any inconvieniences this may have caused but the moon mining isn't that great nor is the mining. Besides that all friendly alliances always have access to ISS stations which are supposed to be going up in the area, why not take advantage of it? 3kb was not our first choice but it was the best one presented to us.
Victim: Garreck Alliance: Curatores Veritatis Alliance Corp: Amarr Border Defense Consortium Destroyed: Deimos System: Z-RFE3 Security: 0.0
Involved parties:
Name: Amarr Control Tower / Dark Nebula Gallente Division (laid the final blow)
Whoe CEO DNGD
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.04.20 05:44:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Thaylon Sen What bothers me most about this is that it apears to me and maybe the wider community that MC are becoming ISS lap dogs, a powerfull and dangerous combination. ISS run the risk of getting to big for their boots.
Hey if you can raise the isk to get us to go to war with ISS then thats fine an dandy. But until someone pays us to do it, we arent gonna shoot them. Now continue with the talks of war and solving the peace.
As the old saying goes, "Put your money where your mouth is."
Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Rattman
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Posted - 2006.04.20 05:48:00 -
[152]
Quote: Victim: Garreck Alliance: Curatores Veritatis Alliance Corp: Amarr Border Defense Consortium Destroyed: Deimos System: Z-RFE3 Security: 0.0
Had to laugh, a CVA and thier roleplaying, but dont actually want to stick to it I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.04.20 05:55:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Seleene on 20/04/2006 05:58:50 A few responses and then a statement:
Originally by: Thaylon Sen What bothers me most about this is that it appears to me and maybe the wider community that MC are becoming ISS lap dogs, a powerful and dangerous combination. ISS run the risk of getting to big for their boots.
As stated earlier in this thread, in our entire existence that spans over two years, the MC have been in the employ of ISS for barely fourteen days. Once was in response to a war declaration upon them in Empire that we helped deal with. The other was the deployment of the Borealis outpost in Pure Blind. Outside of those jobs, our contact with ISS has been cordial but minimal.
Secondly, referring to the Mercenary Coalition as anyone's 'lap dogs' is absurd and insulting. We are a professional, neutral military organization whose credentials and record speak for themselves.
In reference to ex-CVA loyalists who now fly the MC flag:
Originally by: Tharrn Not that anyone would care but that would be the biggest personal disapointment in my whole career as it was the 1st Praetorian Guard that brought the later Grand Admiral and bearer of the Cross of the Sacred Throne Golan Trevize into the Amarr loyalist camp: If he and the other 'Amarr loyalists' have fallen that deeply and have sold their loyalty to the Empire for a handfull of ISK. In the past at least Golan always pledged that he would *never* shoot his old comrades - and we believed he was telling the truth.
I will not speak for the Admiral except to say this: he is as honorable and powerful a man as I have ever met. If he wishes to step aside and not fire upon his former comrades, that is his right. My people are not mindless drones under my command.
As to your former comrades selling their loyalty, this is not about ISK. Perhaps they found something that pulled at their loyalty more than just the word of God, such as a sense of family and camaraderie that their former lives lacked? I leave it to my people to speak for themselves, but do not presume to judge them based upon some misguided stereotype of our profession.
Lastly, while it may gall you to see so many of your former leaders under the command of someone of my birthright, do remember that I am a Gallente Federation citizen first and foremost lest some of your less informed members start flinging meaningless insults.
Originally by: Zrevak Ashek ..the immediate threat from MC, right after Aralis posted his warning towards ISS, is also curious and suggest an attempt at gunboat diplomacy.
Look back. We made you aware that we would be involved in this matter and offered our services to achieve a peaceful resolution in some way. We didn't make threats, we simply stated the obvious.
CVA: The Mercenary CoalitionÆs stance in this matter is simple û we will provide our client with the best military aid possible under the circumstances. However, be aware that we are not and will not be under the command or purview of the ISS. They have stated their desires to us and once we commit ourselves to those desires, we will exercise a large degree of freedom in how to achieve them in coordination with the ISSN. Simply put, it would be best to resolve this now before the real fighting starts.
HUZZAH FEDERATION: Your apparent restraint in this matter is noted and appreciated. I would like to speak with one of your senior representatives later today if possible.
Ushra'Khan: I understand some of you might see this as a grand opportunity and wish to inflame the situation. That is your choice. I would appreciate a point of contact with whom I could speak on urgent matters to should the need arise. Thank you.
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Who is the MC? Watch! |
Lord Cyric
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Posted - 2006.04.20 06:09:00 -
[154]
As an Amarrian I know in my heart the righteous will triumph, those of true faith will prevail, and the unworthy will crumble before the might of the Empire!
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Roke E'raith
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Posted - 2006.04.20 06:42:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Princess Morenta Also considering you sent a ISSN Navy task force into CVA space doesnt appear too friendly - whether you had intentions to fire or just prance about is irrelevant.
You made a show of force (however little) and was probably going to prey on CVA members/loyalists... I think thats a hostile act... You were in the wrong, you should leave the disputed system - not ruffle up mini naval forces and try start trouble.
Defending ourselves by hunting someone who has destroyed ISS ships or attacking them outright when in a state of declared war is a neutral defense action.
I am sorry to say this. This is also my first and last post in this matter. But right, has to be right.
If you read Aralis first post, you will see that he declared CVA space closed for all ISS corporations during that 24 hours. STILL ISS Navy sent ships to the area around our outpost, WHICH HAS BEEN CLAIMED FOR A LONG TIME.
CVA protected their area - and followed the terms stated in the first post. But since ISSN felt it was necessary to fly to that area in a small fleet - doesn't that count as first aggression? Who fired upon who does not matter.
Even if you might call me biased, it is becoming more and more clear who is the real aggressor in this case.
To give you a clue - it is not CVA.
And for all CVA haters or ISS fans - there have been intensive underhand discussions prior this unfortunate thread. And CVA has not changed anything from what they stated when contacted in February. Yes, it could have made even more clear - but when ISS is putting up POS's in areas that definately was considered off-limits (and yes taking them down when we noticed) and now this.
It is clear the the so called "neutrality" of ISS is just something they want to show their investors. The people that they are supposed to trade with, locals and other, are dealt with force and threats. In reality, it is clear that they are like any other alliance in the game...
I was for ISS for a few months ago. Unfortunately this (and other events lately) has opened my eyes. I pray that the eyes of the rest of the citizen's will be opened too.
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Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.04.20 06:44:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Nyphur
CVA asked the owners to remove the POS and, before getting an official response, declared a state of war under which removing the POS is not feasible.
Patently false. Not a shot was fired until after the offical response from ISS. In that response ISS indicated they had no intention of removing their starbases.
Quote:
They complained that there was no response to negotiations and when the response came late with an acceptable reason, CVA threw their arms in the air and screamed "TOO LATE!".
Perhaps you should review the timeline. The response did not come late, it came within the requested 24 hours. The offical response indicated they had *no intention* to remove their starbases (but magnamously would not put up more in sytems where they were not already.. ie they promise not to encroach on any MORE of our space but they will keep what they have taken, thank you very much).
Speaking as a rank-and-file pilot, I'm quite sure that if there was an indication that ISS were pulling out we'd quite happily let them, after all that is what we want. Other than unoffical statements from more reasonable pilots such as yourself, there is no indication that the offical ISS stance has changed.
In fact from my albeit high level understanding of the preliminary discussions several offers were made to extend the time that might be needed to dismantle the starbases considering the large number of anchored modules, as well as an offer to allow the sovereignty claim to stand temporarily if it was needed as a distraction to conceal the true location of the ISS Providence outposts. After this we were hopeful but the ISS rep had to to contact the CEO for the final word. The final word came to us via Galnet and here we are.
As far as I am aware, since the ISS offical statement on the matter there has been no indication from ISS leadership they intend to reverse their original policy.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 06:58:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Nyphur on 20/04/2006 06:58:27
Originally by: Clavius XIV
Originally by: Nyphur
CVA asked the owners to remove the POS and, before getting an official response, declared a state of war under which removing the POS is not feasible.
Patently false. Not a shot was fired until after the offical response from ISS. In that response ISS indicated they had no intention of removing their starbases.
Now there's something I didn't know. I assumed this would not be the case because it appears to be in violation of the ISS charter but I'm sure neither side here is giving the full details of the situation. The bottom line is that official responses can only come from ISS alliance management and I trust that they do not make decisions which are in violation of the charter. The local corporation who owns the POS, however, may not be so forgiving. Violation of the charter by a member corporation is, if I remember correctly, grounds for their expulsion from the ISS.
The charter specifically states that we comply with the rules set in place by host alliances, not that we argue with them over semantics and disobey them when we make a mistake. As far as I can see here, the mistake is ours. And even if it isn't, I do think it would take the bigger picture into account to concede on this occasion and withdraw from the disputed systems. However, I am not in ISS management.
I'll refrain from commenting further as I'm clearly behind on the ISS political field. There hasn't been much internal information regarding the incident at hand. I jsut hope it all gets worked out because we all know that CVA would make better allies of the ISS than enemies.
EDIT: I use "allies" in the weakest possible sense, of course. I mean maintaining a friendly neutrality.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Akyrl
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Posted - 2006.04.20 07:20:00 -
[158]
Well, Nyphur, they should put you in ISS Management -- yours is one of the few objective ISS posts I have seen on the matter (along with a glimmer of objectivity in ButterDog).
Regardless, the political handling of this situation has certainly turned into one worth keeping an eye on.
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Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2006.04.20 07:38:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Golan Trevize on 20/04/2006 07:38:43 From:M-C Hydra Archon class. Location:Providence Operation M-C CAPITAL SHIP FLEET HQ Commanding Officer:Golan Trevize ADM-RET
***A TALL BLACK CLAD MAN SITS AT A RICHLY ORNAMNETED DESK, A BOTTLE OF BRANDY STANDS BESIDES A SINGLE COMPUTER AND A HALF EMPTIED GLASS CONTAINING THE EXPENSIVE BROWN FLUID***
So the day has come it seems, where i trusted servant of the Emperor and Empire must choose my loyalties. Many of my former servants and soldiers will condemn me for my future actions and brand me a heretic , before they do i would like a word.
***THE AGING SOLDIER EMPTIES THE GLASS AND STARTS TO SPEAK WITH A ALMOST SAD LOOK***
I have tried to mediate in this conflict but Sadly it seems the CVA has changed its objectives since i was its leader , no longer the CVA can be said to be a benevolent organization whos only intersted is to expand the holy Empire and bring prosperity to a wartorn and lawless region, CVA has turned into a organization like so many others , run by greed and the desire for profits , no longer it holds true to the ideals i and the CVA leadership agreed on when we cleared the region of pirates a long time ago.
***GOLAN TREVIZE POURS ANOTHER DRINK AND EMPTIES IT IN ONE LONG SIP***
The stupidity of this conflict still amazes me ,for the criminals and terrorists this must indeed be a day of joy , two organizations and potential allies and friends dedicated to the same goals , bringing prosperity and law to areas where there are none, are now on the brink of a destructive war, the irony of this is just mindboggling....
***THE BLACK CLAD ADMIRAL POURS HIM SELF ANOTHER DRINK AND SILENTLY PRAISES ISTAVAAN SHOGATSU FOR THE LAST CRATE OF LUXURIES , REACHING TO A BLACK BOX ON THE DESK THE OLD MAN FINDS A CIGAR MADE OF FINE TOBACCO AND LITS IT***
CVA your claims of half providence is unrealistic , you do not have the fleet to patrol such a vast area ,and you should be glad that a neutral entity wants to help with settling Providence a freindship will benefit both of you both ISK wise and millitarily,. Now i have the outmost respect for the golden fleet ..... ive led it for alsmost my entire career.... but belive me a war with ISS and the Mercenary coalition is the last thing you want...none would benefit from this and i fear the CVA fleet would take dire losses, i know you are brave and proud but please do not force our client into a corner and resort to violence. My capitalship fleet numbering more than 30 vessels is positioned to strike anywhere in Providence/Curse/Catch , our attention has so far been pointed at criminals and vermin installations, please do not force me to look at CVA Claimed space.
I beg you CVA reconsider , if you do not and wishes this unfortunate war to happen then there will be no quarter , ISS Navies and the M-C will strike you until you are forced to negotiate
So say i
Golan Trevize
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
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Mikkel
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Posted - 2006.04.20 08:24:00 -
[160]
Golan it looks like you have been corrupted by the greed and money of the Mercenary Coalition. You where one of the best followers of the emperor, he even gave you the Throne of the Sacred Order for it.
Now you watch and spit it in his face.
You dissapoint me my old protector..
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.20 08:32:00 -
[161]
Quote: Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
Just in case there is any further confusion about 3Kb-10//Q-6LGI, CVA DO NOT claim these systems. They intend to expand into providence in some vague point 'not to soon'(tm) in the future.
ISS do not seek war, we seek development of underutilised 0.0 space. We consulted with the nearby inhabitants, and have respected the borders and future expansion of CVA, Ushra'Khana and Huzzah.
We determined that a response on GalNet was justified in this case, as this is where we were charged with an 'alleged' invasion.
Importantly, GalNet enables us to put the key facts for CVA pilots, so you are aware that after our agreement, CVA goal posts have moved and your reality has not. This is not a fault of the ISS, it is an internal issue for CVA.
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.20 08:33:00 -
[162]
I wish to inform CVA that we have instructed the ISSN via internal comms that they not to run raiding parties against you toward or in your space - for the time being.
I have requested this as of 0800 GMT so the order should have filtered through all ranks by the end of today.
The reason for this restraint is simple;
* We have no wish to fight CVA * The conflict is pointless and should be resolved diplomatically
As someone rightly point out, you cannot realistically claim half of providence on a whim, hinting at possible future expansion, and effectively police that space - I can't even remember when we last saw a CVA anti-pirate patrol in that area of providence. I mean, lots of alliances have expansion plans, but that is clearly not the same as effectively claiming and securing a large area of space.
The point that I am making is that we can work together for the same goals and be stronger as a result, or we can be weaker, together, and fight each other.
For the meantime, ISSN will not run gangs or fleets toward or into your space with you in mind as primary targets. I would ask CVA to return this courtesy by keeping hostilities out of ISS outpost systems until a diplomatic solution can be found.
I of course speak for ISSN and not the MC, who are contracted by ISS to ensure certain objectives are achieved. They have complete autonomy with regard to their own operations.
I would also like to ask that all the diplomats involved get talking again - and not on public forums.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Szumo Manos
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Posted - 2006.04.20 08:38:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Golan Trevize
Sadly it seems the CVA has changed its objectives since i was its leader , no longer the CVA can be said to be a benevolent organization whos only intersted is to expand the holy Empire and bring prosperity to a wartorn and lawless region, CVA has turned into a organization like so many others , run by greed and the desire for profits , no longer it holds true to the ideals i and the CVA leadership agreed on when we cleared the region of pirates a long time ago.
It hurts me to see you write such things, Golan. Because either you are seriously misinformed, to the point of doubting your old comrades in arms and accusing them of corruption, or perhaps even worse, turned into a man no longer worth of respect or any right accuse others of turning to greed.
I hope am I wrong on the second possibility, but tell me Golan, of all the organizactions you've been member of, which one is run by "desire for profits"?
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Audrea
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Posted - 2006.04.20 08:41:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Butter Dog
I of course speak for ISSN and not the MC, who are contracted by ISS to ensure certain objectives are achieved. They have complete autonomy with regard to their own operations.
LOL
reminds me some old saying: The right hand gives, and the left takes right away
Either you are interested in peace, or war. but dont pretend to want peace and masking the agression of the lapdogz (only currently, because they are contracted=lapdogz) as independent party, over which you have no control, and isnt (again, currently) - working in your interests ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise. |
Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2006.04.20 08:43:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Szumo Manos
I hope am I wrong on the second possibility, but tell me Golan, of all the organizactions you've been member of, which one is run by "desire for profits"?
I have been a member of two , both are now run by profits , and dont come and tell me that Imperial dreams isnt ultra capitalistic. But now your greed has gotten you into trouble... deep trouble. The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
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Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2006.04.20 08:47:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Mikkel Golan it looks like you have been corrupted by the greed and money of the Mercenary Coalition. You where one of the best followers of the emperor, he even gave you the Throne of the Sacred Order for it.
Now you watch and spit it in his face.
You dissapoint me my old protector..
And the CVA disapoints me....You have changed so much since i was your leader, the idealism is gone and you have turned into wealthy land owners, much like any other alliance so offcourse it will break my heart if i have to kill you , but do not think you are special anymore. I know you will play the traitor card on me , i do not care The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:03:00 -
[167]
I see no malice or low greed from Aralis in the posted quotes, Golan.
PIE Inc will be monitoring the situation. Don't hesitate to contact your oldest allies, CVA.
For the Empire. ----------------------------------------------
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:14:00 -
[168]
Damn Amarrians and their arrogance. We warned you. I see this going one way and one way only...
My Latest Vid (18/04/06) |
LordMordred
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:21:00 -
[169]
Edited by: LordMordred on 20/04/2006 09:21:38 I have to say, this is the best read I have had in sometime.
The carebears are attacking each other. Most amuzing. I'd have to say though go ISS, perhaps it wasn't a mistake to set you blue after all.
CVA, once again your arrogance is going bite you in the rear. Your buddies won't be there to help you this time around and do most of the leg work. -----
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:32:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Audrea
LOL
reminds me some old saying: The right hand gives, and the left takes right away
Either you are interested in peace, or war. but dont pretend to want peace and masking the agression of the lapdogz (only currently, because they are contracted=lapdogz) as independent party, over which you have no control, and isnt (again, currently) - working in your interests
You don't understand my post, or indeed my position within the ISS, so let me outline it briefly to you.
I cannot, repeat cannot, tell the MC what to do. Thats down to ISS management and is out of my control. I can however hold off the ISSN as this is within my remit.
We have no wish to fight CVA, and I have clearly demonstrated this by asking our PvPers to hold back until further notice.
It is a sincere gesture, and I am confident those of a less reactive disposition than yourself will read it as such. Many in the CVA know my personal opinion of them and will understand the reasonings for my post.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
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Christa Larne
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:32:00 -
[171]
Malice? Perhaps not, but greed? Almost certainly. You are an alliance of less than two hundred who have sovereignty over a handful of systems and you want to 'claim' over half of Providence region? Setting aside the semantics of whether you said to or from 3KB-J0 the simple fact is that you do not have the manpower to control an area that large so it is pure arrogance to say that where you cannot succeed you wish to stop anyone else from attempting to do so. Sure you have so far bullied one industrial corp out of the region by attacking their POS and threatening to destroy it if they did not take it down (and this was in 8P9-BM for the record, so this seems to be yet another extension of CVA's claimed territorial rights) but somehow I doubt you will find ISS as easy to push around.
An ISS outpost in this system would have benefited trade for the whole region, independant of politics. All your attitude shows is that despite your high sounding words you have no real interest in a free and fair region unless it has the flag of the CVA flying overhead.
And regarding the outcome...in my varied career I have seen CVA and PIE fighting, and I have seen MC fighting. There is no doubt in my mind as to who will be coming out of this as the victor (hint: not CVA). My only hope is that you do not drag PIE into this and drag them down with you, they at least are still honourable enemies.
(My views are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance.) -----------------------------------------------
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Aralis
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:35:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Aralis on 20/04/2006 09:38:30 Edited by: Aralis on 20/04/2006 09:36:41 I loathe over posting but it seems more is needed.
A brief history of events with rough timescales:
End of February - ISS asked CVA for our definition of our space and our opinion on various other things. This was given to them. I admit my definition could have been easier to understand but I feel that if you look closely at the map only one interpretation is actually possible.
Just over a week ago 3 ISS POS were placed in LF-2KP. I contacted the corporation in question and was told to contact the Count. I did so, received a swift apology for misunderstanding and the POS were removed. :)
The next day 3 pos were placed in 3kb-10. This time I followed their procedure and complained straight to the Count. I received an unhelpful response claiming that this was outside our claim and their pos had been there for ages. (Both untrue.)
Over the next couple of days 4 more POS went up in Z-RFE3 while I sent 2 more messages to the Count and received no reply. Bearing in mind the unfriendly note of the last post, that the pos were all very heavily armed and not mining, and the absence of any further response I posted on the forums preparatory to violent response if no better answer was forthcoming.
I spoke to Serenity Steele of ISS. I was left under the impression that it was agreed that our claim was unchanged and ISS had misunderstood. While it was clear that the actual decision was to be made by the Count I thought things were likely sorted and an agreement was made to discuss it with the Count later.
The Count posts in this thread that no way they will be withdrawing.
A state of war therefore exists.
To clarify various ignorant assumptions made:
1) We did not start negotiations here on this forum. 2) At no stage has our claim changed. 3) This is not just one pos but a set of, at last count, 7 large heavily armed pos. 4) Violence did not start until the Count posted that they would not be withdrawing. 5) We would be more than happy to let ISS remove it's POS and if it states that it will do so and wishes to return to the previous state of neutrality then that can easily be arranged. 6) Yes our area is free access all neutral non-pirates/non-terrorists/non-scammers to travel, mine and hunt Sanshas. It is however OUR space. Just because you let people into your house does not mean you are giving it to them.
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:44:00 -
[173]
Quote:
Let me quote Aralis from a private conversation
Aralis > Well truth is I'd rather not have them in Providence at all - I thought they were hiring you to clear off CD and they'd be building in Catch instead.
Aralis > I'd like to have all Providence but I don't believe in claiming stuff we can't really hold.
Aralis > ISS don't help anyone - they suck the profit out of an area while claiming to be "neutral".
I could of course change my mind about my stance regarding CVA.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:57:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Quote:
Let me quote Aralis from a private conversation
Aralis > Well truth is I'd rather not have them in Providence at all - I thought they were hiring you to clear off CD and they'd be building in Catch instead.
Aralis > I'd like to have all Providence but I don't believe in claiming stuff we can't really hold.
Aralis > ISS don't help anyone - they suck the profit out of an area while claiming to be "neutral".
I could of course change my mind about my stance regarding CVA.
now you got me wondering what the phrases private conversation and out of context could mean.
i was under the impression people tend to voice the private opinions in private comunications, especially to former allies, under the asumption that they are kept private.
Maybe other standards have to be applied to comunications with Mercenaries, even if they at one time in the past have been honorable defenders of the Empire... ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.04.20 09:58:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Seleene on 20/04/2006 09:58:19
The MC will do nothing to further inflame this situation. ISSN has stated that they have orders to not attack CVA. So long as CVA follow suit and diplomacy resumes, the MC will be content to let that develop. We already have a schedule and we shall adhere to it. However, that schedule is subject to change depending on the outcome of these events.
Personally, I think this is all nonsense. The MC is a similar sized alliance to the CVA and we consider our 'home' to be a measly seven star systems. How CVA could claim to use more than that is beyond me. All of this over one system that may or may not bear fruit one day? Bah.
While my pilots would surely love the test of fighting against the CVA, this is one instance when violence seems to be the non-thinker's solution. Work this out with words. Get on voice comms, come to a mutual agreement and move on to more important matters.
-
Who is the MC? Watch! |
Majaraw Awalabas
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:00:00 -
[176]
My former leader has fallen from grace.
A man who left the path of the Lord. A man who seems to have lacked friendship and camaraderie during over two years of fighting with the finest of Amarr pilots, if we are to believe his current leader.
A man who this very moment has turned against the Empire. Against the Lord.
A man who is no longer fit to wear his medal.
More of my former comrades fly under the banner of Mercenary Coalition. They have a chance to redeem themselves.
Heretics will be burned.
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Rizmordan Hillgotlieb
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:18:00 -
[177]
I of course speak only for myself as I am a mere director in BDCI and not the CEO nor an MC "negotiator".
I do however have a question to satisfy my curiousity. This question will be aptly followed by a statement to clarify why I would ask such a question.
Since I will be an active participant if full scale conflict occurs. I'd like to know what is CVA's real reason is behind 3KB-10 being a point of contention.
The talk from the defenders of the empire is so vociferous about this one system that the CVA leadership would put their own people so readily in harms way.
To an outsider like myself who has read this log, it seems as though this system is a system like any other. There really hasn't been any concrete justification as to why this system is one of conflict. Border system or not. Can the CVA not move this "imaginary" border one system back? The solution sounds childishly simple to me.
Apparently that is not an option here. The grand CVA does not like this for some unknown reason and now are going to be willfully beligerant about it. This system must be more of a more fiscal importance to the CVA. I cannot believe that the CVA would readily abandon peace and opt for open malevolence.
That is a very foolhardy and obtuse position. There has got to be something more to this. Those in power who bring about the cause of war for no cause at all but from the mere jostling of words lack the ability to properly govern.
Mere words are the glaring reason. From the outside looking in, this is a conflict started by stubborn, willful words. CVA has started this conflict. Openly brandishing the blade here on the GALNET.
Please do note - The MC does not start war - we are war. We bring the full measure of our violence into play with each and every contract we accept. Every client who has hired us knows this. Every enemy who has fought us knows this. Some respect us, others loath us. To those that feel disdain towards us, your petty slanderous words mean nothing.
Rizmordan!!! The Website |
Caya
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:19:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Majaraw Awalabas My former leader has fallen from grace.
A man who left the path of the Lord. A man who seems to have lacked friendship and camaraderie during over two years of fighting with the finest of Amarr pilots, if we are to believe his current leader.
A man who this very moment has turned against the Empire. Against the Lord.
A man who is no longer fit to wear his medal.
More of my former comrades fly under the banner of Mercenary Coalition. They have a chance to redeem themselves.
Heretics will be burned.
What has CVA vs ISS conflict to do with Empire? With Lord? How dare u to put his name in your mouth when dealing with conflict which is about to happen FAR from our homeworlds? Did u forget what and who is your true enemy? I advice u to reconsider your sayings and return back to shrine.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:19:00 -
[179]
This whole thing is ridiculous. Shame on CVA.
You are a small alliance trying to claim a huge area of space, which you can't possibly hope to police effectively.
Your existing claimed space is already too big for you and sees you rattling around empty systems most of the time.
ISS come along and are effectively offering to help develop and police the area alongside you. How could this possibly be a threat? You dont even claime the space, you 'plan on claiming it'. How ridiculous.
I personally hope you are stupid enough to take things all the way with ISS/MC, because at the moment they seem very patient with you, its clear they have no wish to fight. But I'm sure if you keep pushing it they will teach you a few lessons you won't forget in a hurry.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:26:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Mr Trouble This whole thing is ridiculous. Shame on CVA. ISS come along and are effectively offering to help develop and police the area alongside you. How could this possibly be a threat? You dont even claime the space, you 'plan on claiming it'. How ridiculous.
That's exactly what I meant by them making better allies of the ISS than enemies. Not to mention the trade logistics the ISS can muster to develop the area.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
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Burzon
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:29:00 -
[181]
This issue is very intersting and disturbing at the same time. I personally do not want to spill any oil into the fire, but reading the communications present in this thread i have to start questioning multiple decisions and positions of the included entities.
But let me start a bit earlier when my corporation was still in the ISS and i still was senior ISS management. I clearly remember an incident down in Catch with the Stain Alliance. Multiple corporations from ISS had erected POS¦s in a selected constellation of the Catch region. After a while we learned that Stain Alliance had a claim on this constellation although it had not been communicated to the ISS prior to putting in some POS¦s. We were asked to remove our POS`s and at the same time saw open hostilities from the Stain Alliance towards the corporations involved, even when we told them that we are currently in the progress of disassembling our POS¦s. Our call for help in this situation was ignored by ISS management and ISSN leadership, although ISS property was under direct threat from hostile forces. ISS management did appologise to Stain leadership and agreed to fully withdraw from said constellation.
The current CVA incident clearly shows the same outline, but this time the ISS is in a way stronger position regarding military forces and it deems possible that ISS is actively seeking to defend possible areas of profit. What i find personally very disturbing is the fact that this time ISS management does not adhere to their charter and claim that a misunderstanding and/or misformulation of borders is the host alliances error and therefore will be ignored. In addition to this the ISS Navy is not adhering to the charter of defending ISS assets that are currently endangered but also sending active raiding forces into host alliance space. From my understaning the ISSN has always been a defensive force.
All in all i personally have to start doubting ISS¦s neutral stance and seriously start doubting their charter as it can be seen broken at several stages in this conflict. My opinion is that the only way that the ISS can keep their neutrality and loyality to their charter is by removing their starbases from said area and prevent ISSN forces to enter hostile space under all circumstances.
Above is only my PERSONAL opinion and does in no way relate to the views of -V- alliance leadership or one of its allies.
Regards,
Burzon, Former ISS Sales Director CEO PAX Interstellar Proud Member of -V-
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c0rn1
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:31:00 -
[182]
Those amarrians must die. *hands ISS a wrench* Go build more starbases! All over Amarr Empire and flood them with war! The time has come to turn the tide and the dry fields on Tash-Murkon Prime shall soak up the amarrian blood of the fallen Enslavers and their families!
Death to the Amarrians! Death to the Emperor!
Hail the Minmatar Republic!
;p x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ...
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:33:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Chain Gang on 20/04/2006 10:33:25
Burzon, please follow your "story" with "One day at Band Camp" ..
Get real .... How stupid does it sound ..... My corp claims the entire "Providence Region", well maybe one day.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:37:00 -
[184]
Quote: I see no malice or low greed from Aralis in the posted quotes, Golan.
PIE Inc will be monitoring the situation. Don't hesitate to contact your oldest allies, CVA.
For the Empire.
Hush PIE your corporation died long ago, actually I think the ISS Netball Team could proberly spank you ....
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:39:00 -
[185]
I would suggest the CVA "Yap Yaps" keep quiet and let the "talkers" get round the table.
Either that, beat your chest, shout war and watch you empire, outpost and fleet get slapped.
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Ztang Canary
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:40:00 -
[186]
Quote: The MC will do nothing to further inflame this situation.
As if you havent done enough, and by the looks of it, continue to do so. Every word uttered here by MC seems to indicate you have an active interest in this, far removed from being a mere "hired help". In actual fact, why you even consider that you have a right to speak publically in this case is beyond me. This discussion is between CVA and ISS, in principle, and has nothing whatsoever to do with MC....as I understand it you are under contract with ISS to be violent, should the need arise. Please stick to that...your threats and words of warning are not needed here, nor are they called for.
I would furthermore say that never have I seen such underhand use of private information, uttered between two men, as is displayed by Golan here. Dishonorable, to say the least...and I wouldnt be surprised if the so called log is a falsification.
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Majaraw Awalabas
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:41:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Caya What has CVA vs ISS conflict to do with Empire? With Lord? How dare u to put his name in your mouth when dealing with conflict which is about to happen FAR from our homeworlds? Did u forget what and who is your true enemy? I advice u to reconsider your sayings and return back to shrine.
The true enemy is whoever takes up arms against the Empire and its citizens.
CVA's policy, as you are fully aware of, is to extend the Empires reach to Providence.
Do not mention the name of the Lord while you fly under the banner of ISK. Do not try to admonish me, it is not I who have left the path.
It is not I who plans to forsake my soul by taking up arms against the Empires finest servants.
It is not I who will burn in hell.
It is you.
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Udyr Vulpayne
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:42:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Caya
What has CVA vs ISS conflict to do with Empire? With Lord? How dare u to put his name in your mouth when dealing with conflict which is about to happen FAR from our homeworlds? Did u forget what and who is your true enemy? I advice u to reconsider your sayings and return back to shrine.
CVA have helped to defend the Empire against the menace of the Ushra'khan for a long time now. Thats a terrorist organisation which has bases in providence. Bases from which they come to assault peaceful citizens of the empire. You might remember them from when you still fought against them some weeks ago. They are also what i would consider to be the "true enemy". An enemy which you are about to aid now that your loyalty has shifted from serving god to just selling your soul to the highest bidder.
So dont come and accuse his loyal servants of forgetting that when you yourself have fallen from faith.
You people disgust me.
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Majaraw Awalabas
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:45:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Golan Trevize Let me quote Aralis from a private conversation
And the knife was plunged. The true hallmark of a mercenary is that he will do anything for a piece of silver.
Including breaking trust.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.20 10:47:00 -
[190]
Burzon, the situation is completely different.
SA claimed the space, CVA 'plan to claim it' and have no assets in that area whatsoever.
They can't police it, they are rarely if ever seen in it, they have no assets there, but they 'might want to claim it in the future' so they go to war with ISS over some POS? I mean, am I the only one who sees how stupid this is?
CVA need a lesson in manners and diplomacy, because right now they look very unprofessional indeed.
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Burzon
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:02:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Mr Trouble Burzon, the situation is completely different.
SA claimed the space, CVA 'plan to claim it' and have no assets in that area whatsoever.
They can't police it, they are rarely if ever seen in it, they have no assets there, but they 'might want to claim it in the future' so they go to war with ISS over some POS? I mean, am I the only one who sees how stupid this is?
CVA need a lesson in manners and diplomacy, because right now they look very unprofessional indeed.
How is it different from the Stain incident ?? On both occasions the ISS was not aware of the claim of a territorial alliance being it from not asking or from misunderstanding a formulation about future expansions. On one occasion the ISS withdraws from the area as demanded on the other occasion ISS even plants more POS`s before diplomatic talks have ended. One occasion was with a 1300 pilots military alliance and the other occasion is with a 200 pilots alliance.
So please explain to me on what detail the current situation differs from the Stain incident ?
Burzon
P.S.: And how come that you claim to have good knowledge of what happened in the Stain incident ? Were you there ? Are you an alt ? CEO PAX Interstellar Proud Member of -V-
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Josiah Bleak
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:03:00 -
[192]
Speaking as a amarr citizen, I find these to be sad days indeed. Not so much for the squabble between CVA and ISS for this is fleeting and easily healed, but because of the public conflict between such eminent long serving defenders such as Golan, Caya, Aralis and others.
In relation to the issue of space, Count we have talked and dealt together you and I in good faith in the past, and though I don't think I have the right to request this of you, I would ask you to make the first move and withdraw the poses in question to a diplomatically more neutral system. I would consider this a personal favour.
Aralis I would ask that you allow this to be done peacefully and in good humour and all parties to consider this incident relegated to the dustbin of history.
A slight shifting of boundaries here will ensure there is much to gain for all providence, yet much to lose for all sides if this continues.
Josiah Bleak - founder and retired president of Huzzah.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:06:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Caya
What has CVA vs ISS conflict to do with Empire? With Lord? How dare u to put his name in your mouth when dealing with conflict which is about to happen FAR from our homeworlds? Did u forget what and who is your true enemy? I advice u to reconsider your sayings and return back to shrine.
well.. at some point in the Empires history , something like this could have been said about Hedion as well...
however, the empire has expanded, mostly because some Faithful have set out in HIS name to bring HIS light to the darkness...
they might have encountered resistance, but they managed to overcome it, and helped to shape the Empires present form. CVA only follows in the steps of these Ancestors, still true to the Empire and inspired by the Lords guidance.
I am a mere apprentice in the truth, at the begin of the journey at best, many years of my life wasted in the darkness, only recently have i come to get a glimpse at HIS glory. Yet i see what CVA has accomplished under His Guidance. A large portion of the once pirate infested and dangerous reagion of providence and lower Domain have become significantly more secure, with law abiding citicens of the empire being able to travel there at much lower risk than before.... I am not to say the fight is over, or that CVA has won, as this might well be a neverending struggle to keep the space open to everyone abiding to the empires laws.
I have to strongly oppose the setiment that the Holy Mission CVA is on doesn't have a thing to do with the Lords divine will. I'd expect such a notion from the ranks of the terrorists, who, unenlightened as they are aren't able to know better. I surely wouldnt have expected it from you dear Caya, even more so as you as former pie member have helped to become providence what it is today.
I still hope that this whole matter can be solved peacefully, but frankly i prepare for the worst.
Whatever will happen will fit into the Lords plan in the end.
For God! For the Empire!
----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:11:00 -
[194]
^^ To many drugs I think ....
Lets just all fight
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:12:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 20/04/2006 11:14:02
Originally by: Burzon
So please explain to me on what detail the current situation differs from the Stain incident ?
Burzon
Because SA CLAIMED the space. CVA PLAN to claim it.
They have no assets there, they don't use that system for anything, and they are not big enough to police that area effectively. In short, they do NOT have a valid territorial claim for anyone to respect.
But, as I've already stated, we do respect their existing claimed space and we DO wish to return to the negotiating table.
We do not wish to fight, and I am confident that the diplomats can 'do their thing' for the satisfaction of all involved.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:15:00 -
[196]
This thread demonstrates one thing: there is no neutrality once a movement in the cluster reaches a certain momentum.
Now recruiting!
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Odarin
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:17:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Burzon On one occasion the ISS withdraws from the area as demanded on the other occasion ISS even plants more POS`s before diplomatic talks have ended.
Ill let you in on a bit of info here Burzon as you and many others have no clue on what transpired. Diplomatic talks didnt even start until we had fully setup. Sov' was gained and then there was suddenly an issue. No additional POSs were setup when CVA first voiced their so called claim. DNGD were not aware of any claim on any of the systems when we first setup. LF was deemed offlimits after some short talks between Count and CVA reps, so we moved on out. After that we recieved a boarder-line not to cross, and we did not. Ill leave it at that for now.
-Oda
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:20:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Manfred Doomhammer on 20/04/2006 11:22:28 as with all the fledglings here that keep spouting propaganda in here, trying to disrupt comunications with aimless drivel.
Following your comments closely throughout this discussion, youre one and sole aim is to pour oil in the starting fire. An action you should leave to the professional terrorists that at least got an understandable interest in this.
If on the other hand you are employed by someone to do this task, shame on you and shame on them for not having the guts to openly stand up to their intentions. Then again, he who has no honor, cannot really be ashamed.
[edited for spelling] ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Caya
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:26:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Majaraw Awalabas
Originally by: Caya What has CVA vs ISS conflict to do with Empire? With Lord? How dare u to put his name in your mouth when dealing with conflict which is about to happen FAR from our homeworlds? Did u forget what and who is your true enemy? I advice u to reconsider your sayings and return back to shrine.
The true enemy is whoever takes up arms against the Empire and its citizens.
CVA's policy, as you are fully aware of, is to extend the Empires reach to Providence.
Do not mention the name of the Lord while you fly under the banner of ISK. Do not try to admonish me, it is not I who have left the path.
It is not I who plans to forsake my soul by taking up arms against the Empires finest servants.
It is not I who will burn in hell.
It is you.
From what i know, your new enemy has not token up arms against the Empire and its citizens. It seems i am flying under the same banner as u are. I am not planning to fight Empire. It is you who is going to war.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:27:00 -
[200]
Manfred Doomhammer
^^ Aimless drivel ... you got it and done it
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Majaraw Awalabas
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:34:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Seleene Lastly, while it may gall you to see so many of your former leaders under the command of someone of my birthright, do remember that I am a Gallente Federation citizen first and foremost lest some of your less informed members start flinging meaningless insults.
Originally by: Golan Trevize The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
And you ask why you are branded heretics.
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AntiReal
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:35:00 -
[202]
Edited by: AntiReal on 20/04/2006 11:36:06 Greetings,
With CVA we and many other anti-pirate corporations has cleaned lower domain and part of providence from pirates, and trying to keep that so. Few remains, few keeps coming to take regular beating time after time. atm there is around 200-300 citizen aroud area and many anti-pirate corporations keeping base around here.
Mamet 0.1 system peaks over 50 travelers at some point of day, few other surrounding system half from that. 0.0 systems around misaba can peak around 5-20 local hunting/mining in harmony and all this with help of CVA defending against pirates and keeping area clear from all hostile entitys.
With those low sec systems CVA and local corporations are keeping over 25 systems clear from pirates and massing forces if needed. there are even 1 ISS corportaion that has been helping out too, and its very sad to see them getting under fire.
Now is time when CVA and ISS are maybe going to war and those who have gained respect and help from CVA will stand alongside with CVA. So ISS, you are not only going to be war with CVA but you are going to be war with Providence (northern Providence has only UK and random Pirates in it). Most of the Anti-Pirate factions, local corporations are ready to stand behind CVA one way or another. I was looking forward to patrol also ISS outpost systems for pirates and hostiles, but it seems that that option is going to out of window.
I still hope ISS still tries to keep as 'neutral' entity and back of from those systems that has been stated earlier. We will come TO your backyard if this thing goes on, and lets see is that 'TO' 1 system before.
ceo of .BH. AntiReal /signed to help out CVA
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Burzon
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:35:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Odarin
Originally by: Burzon On one occasion the ISS withdraws from the area as demanded on the other occasion ISS even plants more POS`s before diplomatic talks have ended.
Ill let you in on a bit of info here Burzon as you and many others have no clue on what transpired. Diplomatic talks didnt even start until we had fully setup. Sov' was gained and then there was suddenly an issue. No additional POSs were setup when CVA first voiced their so called claim. DNGD were not aware of any claim on any of the systems when we first setup. LF was deemed offlimits after some short talks between Count and CVA reps, so we moved on out. After that we recieved a boarder-line not to cross, and we did not. Ill leave it at that for now.
-Oda
Apparently this part of my information was wrong, so i appologise for this specific part and withdraw it.
@Butter Dog, Stain Alliance did not officially claim the constellation that was in question and they did not have any POS`s in the systems we had to leave. They even saw us in said constellation before remembering their claim on this area of space. I have been there first hand so please do not try to tell me what happened in Catch.
I realy hope this resolves peacefully as open territorial conflict will be seriously damaging ISS image.
Burzon CEO PAX Interstellar Proud Member of -V-
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:39:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Majaraw Awalabas
Originally by: Seleene Lastly, while it may gall you to see so many of your former leaders under the command of someone of my birthright, do remember that I am a Gallente Federation citizen first and foremost lest some of your less informed members start flinging meaningless insults.
Originally by: Golan Trevize The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
And you ask why you are branded heretics.
No one said that Golan and I agree on everything. -
Who is the MC? Watch! |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:40:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Chain Gang Manfred Doomhammer
^^ Aimless drivel ... you got it and done it
I owe you an apology, your drivel is not aimless, but thats all about it.
As opposed to you, i do not just troll this thread, trying to look witty with oneline comments soaked with the stench of gasoline. However i should know better than to try to argue with henchmen that obviously dont have any other aim than to sow dischord. I'd even have more respect for the terrorists, as they at least have an open agenda and stand to their goals, however misguided they might be. ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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corporal hicks
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Posted - 2006.04.20 11:56:00 -
[206]
Edited by: corporal hicks on 20/04/2006 11:58:36 Not that I have much time for CVA ( They war decced us ) there no fun.
But I dislike ISS and there supposed Neutrality even more so go get em CVA.
(Hardin paid me to say that)
" Stay Frosty "
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:00:00 -
[207]
PIE members below VADM rank will refrain from further posts in this topic.
Too many degenerates and peons posting, I'd not want you distracted by the level of their idiocy.
Speak to a wall instead, if you absolutely HAVE to address the subject at hand, it will be much more rewarding.
As I stated earlier, PIE is considering the situation and what actions to take. ----------------------------------------------
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:04:00 -
[208]
This is a sorry state of affairs indeed.
It seems to me to be a simple misunderstanding over the definition of the word "to".
I urge both the CVA and the ISS to sit down and sort this out privately.
I am also somewhat dismayed to see that the ISS appears to be prepared to bring third parties into the conflict. Should this come about, I would personally take a very dim view of those who widen the conflict.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
TFH AGONY
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:04:00 -
[209]
Originally by: AntiReal Edited by: AntiReal on 20/04/2006 11:36:06 Greetings,
With CVA we and many other anti-pirate corporations has cleaned lower domain and part of providence from pirates, and trying to keep that so. Few remains, few keeps coming to take regular beating time after time. atm there is around 200-300 citizen aroud area and many anti-pirate corporations keeping base around here.
Mamet 0.1 system peaks over 50 travelers at some point of day, few other surrounding system half from that. 0.0 systems around misaba can peak around 5-20 local hunting/mining in harmony and all this with help of CVA defending against pirates and keeping area clear from all hostile entitys.
With those low sec systems CVA and local corporations are keeping over 25 systems clear from pirates and massing forces if needed. there are even 1 ISS corportaion that has been helping out too, and its very sad to see them getting under fire.
Now is time when CVA and ISS are maybe going to war and those who have gained respect and help from CVA will stand alongside with CVA. So ISS, you are not only going to be war with CVA but you are going to be war with Providence (northern Providence has only UK and random Pirates in it). Most of the Anti-Pirate factions, local corporations are ready to stand behind CVA one way or another. I was looking forward to patrol also ISS outpost systems for pirates and hostiles, but it seems that that option is going to out of window.
I still hope ISS still tries to keep as 'neutral' entity and back of from those systems that has been stated earlier. We will come TO your backyard if this thing goes on, and lets see is that 'TO' 1 system before.
ceo of .BH. AntiReal /signed to help out CVA
Now it is clear, we are a neutral and anti-pirate corp, so this mean we are not welcome either way because we hold an ISS tag, seems to me no matter what is said because we are ISS we are not welcome. So instead of everyone raging a war, get to the gd point. This is a matter between ISS and CVA to work out but yet you all aid into this pi$$ing contest on who has more moeny, guns, ships or who is working for who. Give it a rest already. We made our final position clear to ISS witch in case you ask is none of your Feking business as is most of this post but yet you all have to fuel the fire so it is a simple answer for you all. We will remain out of the way, we will not fight or attack anyone, we have no intrest in starting a war but yet i thought i made that clear to CVA and again in one ear and out the other. War is your tool, threats are what you have shown me since the first day i jumped into your system, before any pos's were setup. We are infact a friendly corp to all.
CVA you made it clear ISS is not welcome in your space noted, alliance's have made it clear war will be bad for all also notied. Our corp has assets here they are not ISS property but DNGD's so you can blow it all up seeing is how the only answer you know is war or ISS and CVA can infact get there gd stories togather and work it out. Yes I am in ISS as a corp seeking to make isk in the pos mining. and yes there is mining gear going that we removed over this crap to protect our assets. CVA i hardly know any of you but you also haven't made us feel very neutral or welcomed from the start. I will ignore all of this until a resolution is founded. Final note: ISS and CVA grow up! we all are friends here. Pull the thumbs out of your arse's for 2 seconds and get this resolved privatly. It is not that hard to do really. both parties will not gain a thing by acting the war card. In the end you will have not destroyed removed ISS like you would think, but yet destroyed a small neutral corps assets to pick a fight before resolving peacfully. My position is final POS's Will remain until a resolution is final. We do not want a war. keep in mind we are tring as hard as you to resolve this quickly.
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Vincent Gaines
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:12:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 20/04/2006 12:15:08
I'm still new to ISS. I'm not part of the ISSN, nor am I part of any fighting wing.
This is insane. ISS isn't trying to expand. An ISS corp moved into an area that was believed to be unclaimed. Before any reply from ISS, CVA began hostilities. As far as I know they are still blue at this moment.
There was no soverignty to CVA in that region, and when it was constructed it was thought to be upon that agreement. Now CVA says it claimed that area too, after 4 control towers were placed there. So if the corp were to remove the stations, would they be safe in doing so? Has CVA even considered trying to work out a peace agreement? All they did is wait for a response. If they weren't happy with it, then voice it... but going to war just because the immeadate response isn't completely satisfactory shows that all you want is war.
As far as I can tell both ISS and CVA want to have a stable, peaceful region. What would war do?
First it'd be devistating on both sides. Both in cost and lost ships. Second, it'll weaken both of our resources against pirates and other filth.
As I said, I am not a part of ISSN and I will not speak for them as I don't know anything other than what I observe, but an "explatory force" sent out there to assess the threat (as there was a threat given against us) is not breaking our peaceful relations. But anyway, ISSN and overall higher-level politics are things that I don't even want to try to get into.
All I know is that a war between ISS and CVA would open both up to increased pirate activitiy and weaken the south. All one needs is to look at the vacuum left in the north. A war will hurt everyone.
Here's hoping to find a peaceful solution before this gets out of hand.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:24:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 20/04/2006 12:26:01
Originally by: Vincent Gaines Before any reply from ISS, CVA began hostilities. As far as I know they are still blue at this moment.
There was no soverignty to CVA in that region, and when it was constructed it was thought to be upon that agreement. Now CVA says it claimed that area too, after 4 control towers were placed there.
If you would have read the rest of this thread there would be two things obvious here.
Firstly, ISS contacted the CVA end of February at which point ISS and CVA came to an agreement about the areas we considered to be our protectorate. This is the agreement where there has been a misunderstanding about the meaning of the word 'to'. It seems the dictionary definition only counts if it backs up what you want, otherwise its meaning is open to whatever interpretation you wish to place on it.
CVA did not fire a shot until after Count Tassenine's post in this thread stating that the removal of the POS in the debated system was not going to happen. This follows at least a full week of attempts to sort this out amicably.
CVA has always maintained a claim on the system in question, ever since ISS approached us and asked at the end of February. It has always been part of our space according to the agreements we have with ISS (and Huzzah for that matter).
(Edited for spelling and grammer only)
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Lord Cyric
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:33:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Golan Trevize [...I have tried to mediate in this conflict but Sadly it seems the CVA has changed its objectives since i was its leader , no longer the CVA can be said to be a benevolent organization whos only intersted is to expand the holy Empire and bring prosperity to a wartorn and lawless region, CVA has turned into a organization like so many others , run by greed and the desire for profits , no longer it holds true to the ideals i and the CVA leadership agreed on when we cleared the region of pirates a long time ago...
It's amusing to see mercenaries, whose creed is neutrality and assurance they will fight anyone, apparently even their brothers for the right price, accuse other organizations of greed. Try to justify your actions how you will, but you will not be the same man the moment after you fire your guns on a CVA ship, your innocence will be lost and your reputation will be tarnished. MC will have plenty of targets, I would urge you to extend your hostility in a different direction.
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Caya
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:39:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Lord Cyric
Originally by: Golan Trevize [...I have tried to mediate in this conflict but Sadly it seems the CVA has changed its objectives since i was its leader , no longer the CVA can be said to be a benevolent organization whos only intersted is to expand the holy Empire and bring prosperity to a wartorn and lawless region, CVA has turned into a organization like so many others , run by greed and the desire for profits , no longer it holds true to the ideals i and the CVA leadership agreed on when we cleared the region of pirates a long time ago...
It's amusing to see mercenaries, whose creed is neutrality and assurance they will fight anyone, apparently even their brothers for the right price, accuse other organizations of greed. Try to justify your actions how you will, but you will not be the same man the moment after you fire your guns on a CVA ship, your innocence will be lost and your reputation will be tarnished. MC will have plenty of targets, I would urge you to extend your hostility in a different direction.
Golan the Innocent?
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:42:00 -
[214]
Hello, I'm an alt.
But I'm an alt who know what Aralis's real problem is.
He has told people that the real problem isnt this system, or 'future claims', its that he just doenst like the ISS for some reason, and will do anything he can to make life difficult for them.
He just doesnt want ISS in providence at ANY price. He is short-sighted, and lacks leadership skills. If he had them, he would see that he and the ISS share many goals and could work together to make Providence safer. But his short-sightedness, lack of leaderships skills, and inflated ego means he thinks being hostile against his friends will solve matters.
Well - news for you Aralis, it won't work.
Your alliance claim over roughly half of Providence is a joke. Sure, you keep the area around Misaba relatively safe, but the system in question is rarely if ever patrolled by CVA.
Just because some ego-trip leader of a small alliance decides he 'wants' half of providence, doesnt make his sovereignty claim valid.
I suggest CVA find their direction again, because you are looking like a sorry bunch of lost souls at the moment.
And I'll tell you something else - ISS will win if you go to war with them.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:46:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Krackerjack Hello, I'm an alt.
When you lack the courage of your convictions to post your views as yourself and get someone else to do it for you, your opinions become worthless.
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:47:00 -
[216]
I'd just like to state that the MC had already agreed upon a contract to support ISS during the coming weeks. It is up to ISS whether or not we play any part in any conflict with CVA, should a conflict arise.
ISS are not and have not hired us specifically to intervene, militarily or otherwise, with the CVA. We stepped in on the negotiations because some of the MC pilots have close ties with CVA and thought they could get things sorted out before they escalated into all out war
Id still rather see a peaceful solution to this but it appears Aralis is uncompromising. I understand the CVA needs to save face, but it still seems rediculous to go to war over an out of the way system that they themselves stated they didnt claim, only planned too.
As for all the rubbish about Golan, Caya and the other Empire loyalists (and they are still that), if you truly think they are an enemy of the Empire for engaging you in a war which YOU started, you are merely deluding yourselves
My Latest Vid (18/04/06) |
Grim Savage
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:47:00 -
[217]
The evil ISS empire just takes what they want, hideing behind theire wallet.
The fact that the people claiming that area don't have a POS or formal claim, do not mather.
The hobbit-rush on EC where they where backed by the rangers or the west (BOB) shows that no system in EVE are safe from any force.
There are quite a few alliances / constallations that can at 12 hour notice, lay siege to, and take an ISS station. The southern stations can easily be taken by the Hobbits, the rangers and Mercaneries. The northern stations can easily be taken by the rangers, the mercaneries and the Dungeons & Dragon alliance.
There are little doubt that there are alliances in the east as well that can do this, but they don't have the evil ISS empire building towers in theire backyard.
I wish all enemies of ISS happy hunting. Unite, and bring down the evil empire while it is still young.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:48:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Originally by: Krackerjack Hello, I'm an alt.
When you lack the courage of your convictions to post your views as yourself and get someone else to do it for you, your opinions become worthless.
I'm not allowed to post with my main, my corp won't let me. But trust me I am well informed as to Aralis's true motivations behind this move.
That you blindly follow this inept fool is your unfortunate decision.
This is the beginning of the end for CVA.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:48:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Krackerjack Hello, I'm an alt.
But I'm an alt who know what Aralis's real problem is.
He has told people that the real problem isnt this system, or 'future claims', its that he just doenst like the ISS for some reason, and will do anything he can to make life difficult for them.
He just doesnt want ISS in providence at ANY price. He is short-sighted, and lacks leadership skills. If he had them, he would see that he and the ISS share many goals and could work together to make Providence safer. But his short-sightedness, lack of leaderships skills, and inflated ego means he thinks being hostile against his friends will solve matters.
Well - news for you Aralis, it won't work.
Your alliance claim over roughly half of Providence is a joke. Sure, you keep the area around Misaba relatively safe, but the system in question is rarely if ever patrolled by CVA.
Just because some ego-trip leader of a small alliance decides he 'wants' half of providence, doesnt make his sovereignty claim valid.
I suggest CVA find their direction again, because you are looking like a sorry bunch of lost souls at the moment.
And I'll tell you something else - ISS will win if you go to war with them.
Mr. Alt, may i point you into this Direction? ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:51:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Grim Savage The evil ISS empire just takes what they want, hideing behind theire wallet.
The fact that the people claiming that area don't have a POS or formal claim, do not mather.
The hobbit-rush on EC where they where backed by the rangers or the west (BOB) shows that no system in EVE are safe from any force.
There are quite a few alliances / constallations that can at 12 hour notice, lay siege to, and take an ISS station. The southern stations can easily be taken by the Hobbits, the rangers and Mercaneries. The northern stations can easily be taken by the rangers, the mercaneries and the Dungeons & Dragon alliance.
There are little doubt that there are alliances in the east as well that can do this, but they don't have the evil ISS empire building towers in theire backyard.
I wish all enemies of ISS happy hunting. Unite, and bring down the evil empire while it is still young.
Unfortunately for you, Mr Fellow Alt, the ISS really don't have many enemies, as more alliances are far more sensible than CVA.
Somehow I don't see CVA and CDC 'uniting'
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Josiah Bleak
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:55:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Parallax Error
CVA has always maintained a claim on the system in question, ever since ISS approached us and asked at the end of February. It has always been part of our space according to the agreements we have with ISS (and Huzzah for that matter).
(Edited for spelling and grammer only)
I think I can safely add to this that Huzzah have had long found CVA to be fantastic neighbours in Providence. They are stable, excellent fighters, loyal to their friends and utterly committed to the free passage of neutrals through Northern Providence. A good number of Lower Domain and Providence based corps will attest to this.
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Saucerhead
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:58:00 -
[222]
Ah, here they come again. This strange sinister cult calling themselves "Alts", one of many menaces we in Communication Relay Commision have been tasked to eliminate.
For those who did not notice, this IC forum. --
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:07:00 -
[223]
The facts are simple. ISS contacted CVA in apparent good faith back in February and inquired as to the CVAs boundries. The CVA told them "we're expanding TO this point".
ISS apparently has misunderstood what the word TO means. It means TO there. (I posted a websters online definition back on page 5 of this thread).
Clearly ISS has misunderstood what TO means. As ISS is a large entity and not totally cohesive or organized with its member corps I have to believe this was a simple error and that the ISS will remove the POS stations in the space the CVA planned to expand TO.
I'm sorry but arguments about semantics (TO) or about CVA being "unrealistic for expanding" are a moot point. The facts are clear.
ISS initially refused to remove the POSs leaving CVA no choice but to declare war. Some have suggested CVA should capitulate and "move the boundry one system". To those people I ask "would you?". Would you basically allow yourself to be bullied and move your boundry? And what would you do the NEXT time it happend? Because rest assured it would happen again.
The CVA has my respect as an Amarrian loyalist and Priest. They fight for God and Empire and hope to one day see our Empire, already covering over 40% of the safe space, expand even more. Their motivations have never been in question.
They have brought safety and stability and commerce to a once lawless land in the name of the Amarrian Empire. Some would allege their motivations have changed recently but I'll remind those people just a few weeks ago CVA Dreadnaughts helped take down a terrorist training camp nearby. This isn't the action of non-loyalists rather those who are most zealous in their faith to God and Empire.
I do not speak for PIE Incorporated on this issue at this time. My views are my own. I know from talking to Aralis extensively privately that the CVA is in the right here. The facts are clear and simple to understand.
I also know the ISS (better then you could imagine). I have to believe this is merely a mistake in understanding what the word TO means (or something). The ISS would not lose face by admitting it was a misunderstanding and removing the contested POSs. It would show honor and humility in admitting an error was made and the respect many of us have (or had) for the ISS would return even moreso.
I will pray for a peaceful resolution to this stalemate. I pray that God helps the ISS find the way to repair what has happend. I pray God helps the CVA continue to uphold the fight for right they have started in Providence well over a year ago.
And I pray for those who have fallen from grace and worship now the evil isk above all else. There is a way back to salvation and I am here to hear your confessions if needed.
May God help us all.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
TFH AGONY
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:11:00 -
[224]
Yet again war talk. do you peeps have anything better to do, or is there like a eve war buzzer that goes off where everyone must keep the fire buring. give it a rest and let cva and iss work it out.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:17:00 -
[225]
Some of the accusations here, some implicit, others more direct...are pretty incredible. Again, people need to go back and see what has been said before making false assumptions and accusations.
Not a shot was fired until the official ISS response was "sorry, we're not gonna move the stations." This is a natural state of things: the demand was for some sort of diplomatic contact giving some indication of an intent to move the stations or there would be war. Instead we get an official "no." Fair enough; war it is.
The CVA's business in Providence is a holy mission. Aralis has a vision and we are prepared to face hardships to see the vision through. An extension of God's holy empire...a worthy pursuit! We will not roll over, forsake the vision, and play dead just because a larger alliance tells us to.
Diplomacy was tried. Diplomacy has failed. Now it's war's turn.
Aralis is a reasonable man. If ISS decide that this system is not worth the conflict, then a ceasefire can surely be agreed upon. But make no mistake: it was ISS who placed the stations, ISS who refuse to move them. To place this at the feet of the CVA is rather silly.
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:30:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Garreck
Aralis is a reasonable man. If ISS decide that this system is not worth the conflict, then a ceasefire can surely be agreed upon. But make no mistake: it was ISS who placed the stations, ISS who refuse to move them. To place this at the feet of the CVA is rather silly.
Rubbish.
You dont claim the space, you 'plan to claim it' at some vague point in the future.
Your alliance is already rattling around in its existing space, you might want to think about more pressing issues like getting enough members to fill that space before you start barking orders at other alliances who set up a POS in a system you have no assets or activity in WHATSOEVER.
But no, you choose war.
This is not an act of stregth, it is an act of ineptitude and weakness. Your friends in the ISS could help you secure the futher reaches of providence against pirates, instead you choose to fight them.
Aralis clearly has a grudge against the ISS, but CVA need to get real here. You dont have the members to claim half of Providence, its nothing short of a joke designed to hinder progress in the region.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:36:00 -
[227]
Originally by: O Thief Your friends in the ISS could help you secure the futher reaches of providence against pirates, instead you choose to fight them.
If they were truly our friends, they would have respected the agreement that was made. If they were truly our friends, a misunderstanding on where our claim ends could be quickly squared away.
We do not need the help of ISS to see the vision through. We need only the help and blessing of God.
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Tana Quil
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:39:00 -
[228]
Originally by: AntiReal Edited by: AntiReal on 20/04/2006 11:36:06 Greetings,
With CVA we and many other anti-pirate corporations has cleaned lower domain and part of providence from pirates, and trying to keep that so. Few remains, few keeps coming to take regular beating time after time. atm there is around 200-300 citizen aroud area and many anti-pirate corporations keeping base around here.
Mamet 0.1 system peaks over 50 travelers at some point of day, few other surrounding system half from that. 0.0 systems around misaba can peak around 5-20 local hunting/mining in harmony and all this with help of CVA defending against pirates and keeping area clear from all hostile entitys.
With those low sec systems CVA and local corporations are keeping over 25 systems clear from pirates and massing forces if needed. there are even 1 ISS corportaion that has been helping out too, and its very sad to see them getting under fire.
Now is time when CVA and ISS are maybe going to war and those who have gained respect and help from CVA will stand alongside with CVA. So ISS, you are not only going to be war with CVA but you are going to be war with Providence (northern Providence has only UK and random Pirates in it). Most of the Anti-Pirate factions, local corporations are ready to stand behind CVA one way or another. I was looking forward to patrol also ISS outpost systems for pirates and hostiles, but it seems that that option is going to out of window.
I still hope ISS still tries to keep as 'neutral' entity and back of from those systems that has been stated earlier. We will come TO your backyard if this thing goes on, and lets see is that 'TO' 1 system before.
ceo of .BH. AntiReal /signed to help out CVA
What you really need not to do Antireal is stop talking all big because what you alwasy fail to mention is that the left leg of providence is uncontested because it useless in every shape and form.
And as for talking rubbish about kicking eveyones ass who passes i dont seem to remember any one beating THE PRIORY has taken?! infact last time we came to the area for any amount of time was when The Huzzah Fed nearly fell and it took 3 different allaince war decs to secure the area again.
So in this time of problems please refrain from making more problems for yourselves |
Princess Morenta
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:49:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Liberia Its pretty obvious ISS made a mistake in interpreting what CVA meant. Arguing about the word "to" is pointless. Admit the mistake and remove the POS. I trust ISS just misunderstood and will make this right. I hope for everyone they can settle this in the backrooms of diplomacy and avert a pointless war.
It's politically not my place to take sides but in spirit I agree with this. If they were my POS, I would voluntarilly remove them and formally appologise to CVA for the misunderstanding. However, they started actually shooting on ISS haulers before trying to work things out sufficiently via diplomatic routes so the owners would probably be ganked when dismantling the stations and have them stolen. CVA asked the owners to remove the POS and, before getting an official response, declared a state of war under which removing the POS is not feasible. Now that communications are well and truly established, they aren't backing down from their war stance, which suggests that the initial reasoning behind the war is completely transparant. They complained that there was no response to negotiations and when the response came late with an acceptable reason, CVA threw their arms in the air and screamed "TOO LATE!".
So if they were my POS, while I would want to remove them, I'm not sure CVA would even let me. They aren't mine, though, and it's up to ISS management and the corp involved to sort things out with CVA, provided they're willing to listen. Given the sharp instigation of hostilities and the unwillingness of CVA to get back to the negotiation table when it came to light that it was a resonable misunderstanding to make (since they don't publicly even claim the system), I would follow the idea that this is a manufactured war. They're not backing down and resorting to negotiation because, frankly, they want to have a jolly good time shooting up some ISS folk.
In situations like these, the reasons given for actually instigating hostilities are almost always meaningless. They're nothing more than an excuse to do what they want and still feel justified. Everyone likes to think they're doing the right thing.
Originally by: "Some ISS Bigwig"
Sorry about this late reply from me, but I've quite literally been in my deathbed, it felt like it anyway, with a throat infection these last 24 hours
Regrettably, this incident is a direct result of misunderstanding due to communication from Aralis. Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
CVA have not previously laid claim to this area through any recognisable means: - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans include 3KB-10 - Not clearly communicated their potential expansion plans to include Q-6LGI constellation - Not claimed the area on the territorial map - Not claimed soverignty using POS in the constellation in question - Not claimed sovreighty using pos even the neighbouring constellation
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
ISS will continue to honor the agreement to stay out of the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
If CVA properly claim the area on the Territorial map or claim sovereignty, ISS will cease placing POS in other systems in the Q-6LGI constellation.
Chairman, ISS
Is that not your "Official" response?
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:50:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Garreck
If they were truly our friends, they would have respected the agreement that was made. If they were truly our friends, a misunderstanding on where our claim ends could be quickly squared away.
We do not need the help of ISS to see the vision through. We need only the help and blessing of God.
Well I very much doubt your God approves of warmongering over an unanswered mail and a POS.
Is it hardly suprising ISS reacted the way they did? You mailed Count who was off ill for a few days, and upon his return he sees the threat of war? How do you think that looks to outsiders?
CVA seem to have lost their strategic direction. Try claiming a portion of space you actually have a chance of managing, and let ISS develop the outer areas for the benefit of all Providence inhabitants, yourselves included.
If your leadership was strong and visionary, you would see the benefits of working in partnership with other peace-loving alliance. That you failed to see this speaks volumes about how low CVA have now sunk.
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Ethidium Bromide
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:54:00 -
[231]
as the CVA's main purpose in providence is to make it a safe space under amarr laws i consider this not only a matter of personal allegiance and loyality but also an act of direct agression of the ISS against the empire and the people of amarr.
the little i can do to assist the CVA will be done. _________________________________ just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:58:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide as the CVA's main purpose in providence is to make it a safe space under amarr laws i consider this not only a matter of personal allegiance and loyality but also an act of direct agression of the ISS against the empire and the people of amarr.
the little i can do to assist the CVA will be done.
I have heard rumour that the very highest echelons of Amarrian society shall attend the openings of the ISS Amarr Factory Outpost upon its completion in Providence in May.
You would be wise not to judge Ammarian favour - especially when Amarrians enjoy the rich benefits of trade from the ISS, and see nothing but petty warmongery from the CVA.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:05:00 -
[233]
Originally by: O Thief If your leadership was strong and visionary, you would see the benefits of working in partnership with other peace-loving alliance. That you failed to see this speaks volumes about how low CVA have now sunk.
If ISS leadership was strong and visionary, they would see the benefits of working in partnership with other peace-loving alliances. That they failed to see this speaks volumes about how low ISS have sunk.
We could go round and round make generalizations back and forth.
The facts, however, are simple and well-recorded:
ISS places 4 frighteningly well armed stations with no recognizable industrial capacities in a system the CVA had unofficially claimed in a prior agreement.
Multiple attempts to contact ISS privately proved futile.
A public attempt got their attention but instead of moving the stations, we get hair-splitting and semantics of what "to" means. We are told "the stations stay."
So now we go to war. What else are we meant to do, use harsh language? An agreement has been broken, our sovereignty has been challenged. It strikes me as mildly humorous that only after the official answer of "no, we won't move the stations" is posted does ISS cry out for diplomacy.
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Audrea
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:08:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Audrea
LOL
reminds me some old saying: The right hand gives, and the left takes right away
Either you are interested in peace, or war. but dont pretend to want peace and masking the agression of the lapdogz (only currently, because they are contracted=lapdogz) as independent party, over which you have no control, and isnt (again, currently) - working in your interests
You don't understand my post, or indeed my position within the ISS, so let me outline it briefly to you.
I cannot, repeat cannot, tell the MC what to do. Thats down to ISS management and is out of my control. I can however hold off the ISSN as this is within my remit.
We have no wish to fight CVA, and I have clearly demonstrated this by asking our PvPers to hold back until further notice.
Fair enough, you are only in charge of the ISSN; but your bosses (Serenity and Count) are also the bosses of MC for the duration of their employment.
So, if MC agress (although they already stated they would not) the CVA, it can only be with the either explicit order from the ISS bosses, or them giving MC free reign.
I would also like to address something you stated in other posts which annoys me somewhat:
You state their claim on half providence is unrealistic due to size and that they cant police it. Think of this: BoB (before DICE merge) was about 1000 man, and claims 3 regions. So, think again wether 200 man alliance is capable of claiming (even without poses) half region? I am sure BoB doesnt have POSes or other assets in every single system in Delve, PB anf Fountain. So, how having actual assets is neccesary to recognize claims of the system? If you really strongly believe in that, try 'claiming' 'unclaimed' system in Delve, and see what happens
I hope ISS rethinks this agressive stance, because if CVA will have to attack in order to free their claimed system - and full scale hostilities would follow, most ppl would remember ISS as the one who ignored valid, standard agreed upon claim (again without actual assets like all alliances agree on) and violated it. ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise. |
O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:20:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Garreck
If ISS leadership was strong and visionary, they would see the benefits of working in partnership with other peace-loving alliances. That they failed to see this speaks volumes about how low ISS have sunk.
We could go round and round make generalizations back and forth.
The facts, however, are simple and well-recorded:
ISS places 4 frighteningly well armed stations with no recognizable industrial capacities in a system the CVA had unofficially claimed in a prior agreement.
Multiple attempts to contact ISS privately proved futile.
A public attempt got their attention but instead of moving the stations, we get hair-splitting and semantics of what "to" means. We are told "the stations stay."
So now we go to war. What else are we meant to do, use harsh language? An agreement has been broken, our sovereignty has been challenged. It strikes me as mildly humorous that only after the official answer of "no, we won't move the stations" is posted does ISS cry out for diplomacy.
CVA are in the wrong here.
So you go to war about a system you DO NOT currently claim. How ridiculous.
Fine, go to war the ISS then, it doenst directly bother me. I mean, I know you will lose, they have more members in their Navy than you have in your whole alliance. Maybe their Navy can make a territorial claim over half of Providence - that would be equally ridiculous. Then maybe you can see just how strange this CVA behaviour appears.
But you are painty a very glossy image of the 'facts' here.
I would ask you a very simple question, please answer it so I can at least try to understand where CVA are coming from:
Why is this system so important to you, and why do you object to ISS developing the system?
And, before you answer, shouting 'because we plan to claim it' clearly is not good enough.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:24:00 -
[236]
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Garreck
If ISS leadership was strong and visionary, they would see the benefits of working in partnership with other peace-loving alliances. That they failed to see this speaks volumes about how low ISS have sunk.
We could go round and round make generalizations back and forth.
The facts, however, are simple and well-recorded:
ISS places 4 frighteningly well armed stations with no recognizable industrial capacities in a system the CVA had unofficially claimed in a prior agreement.
Multiple attempts to contact ISS privately proved futile.
A public attempt got their attention but instead of moving the stations, we get hair-splitting and semantics of what "to" means. We are told "the stations stay."
So now we go to war. What else are we meant to do, use harsh language? An agreement has been broken, our sovereignty has been challenged. It strikes me as mildly humorous that only after the official answer of "no, we won't move the stations" is posted does ISS cry out for diplomacy.
CVA are in the wrong here.
So you go to war about a system you DO NOT currently claim. How ridiculous.
Fine, go to war the ISS then, it doenst directly bother me. I mean, I know you will lose, they have more members in their Navy than you have in your whole alliance. Maybe their Navy can make a territorial claim over half of Providence - that would be equally ridiculous. Then maybe you can see just how strange this CVA behaviour appears.
But you are painty a very glossy image of the 'facts' here.
I would ask you a very simple question, please answer it so I can at least try to understand where CVA are coming from:
Why is this system so important to you, and why do you object to ISS developing the system?
And, before you answer, shouting 'because we plan to claim it' clearly is not good enough.
as was suggested to you, you might want to go claim an 'unclaimed' system in the delve region and see what the response would be dont forget to visit your local cloning station first and make sure your clone is up to date ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:27:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
as was suggested to you, you might want to go claim an 'unclaimed' system in the delve region and see what the response would be dont forget to visit your local cloning station first and make sure your clone is up to date
Well thats just the point isnt it.
BoB police their region, claim all of it, and make it clear to all on the Alliance map. There is no ambiguity.
CVA may or may not claim it, but they go to war anyway.
Distinct different - even Aralis admitted in an earlier post that he can't claim all of Providence due to insufficient resources. BoB make no such claim about Delve.
My original question still stands.
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Audrea
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:34:00 -
[238]
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
as was suggested to you, you might want to go claim an 'unclaimed' system in the delve region and see what the response would be dont forget to visit your local cloning station first and make sure your clone is up to date
Well thats just the point isnt it.
BoB police their region, claim all of it, and make it clear to all on the Alliance map. There is no ambiguity.
CVA may or may not claim it, but they go to war anyway.
Distinct different - even Aralis admitted in an earlier post that he can't claim all of Providence due to insufficient resources. BoB make no such claim about Delve.
My original question still stands.
Perhaps I should give more percise example: Say, u go to system xyz in Delve, which is not on the main routes. Stay there idle for hours, days - I bet if some BoB doesnt pass there by accident - nobody would bother u. BUT if you actually try and claim it - they WILL come to take care of you (ie patrol and police their space). Because if they didnt claim it - obviously they would care less if u claim it.
Exactly the same can be said about thi particular system in providence - CVA might not patrol it regularly, or have presence in it, but since they claim it, when u come and claim it as well - they will send forces to free it again.
Does that makes sense to you about "policing" areas?
I also noticed you didnt say anything about size of alliance - I guess my example was good explanation why 200 men can claim half provi? ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise. |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:41:00 -
[239]
Edited by: Manfred Doomhammer on 20/04/2006 14:43:07
either you are this bone headed or youre trying hard to apear to be...
there are numerous systems in delve not showing as claimed in the map... yet nobody not at war with BoB (and even most people at war with them i guess) would dispute the fact that these systems are BoB space....
hence my remark about geting into one of these systems and see how long till you meet your new neighbours..... in force.
we could talk about other alliances as well who use this practice of not having souvereignity of each and every system in their influence sphere, still they have a claim on these systems, wich is normally accepted by their neighbours ... UNLESS these neighbours want to start an teritoral dispute...
so... what we have here was CVA telling ISS where their sphere of influence ends, and now ISS is violating it, not intending to withdraw as you can read from their leaders statement. To now accuse CVA of warmongering is just downright silly... they do what every alliance out there would do, defend their influence sphere, after diplomatics failed.
now, was this really so hard to understand? not every agression involves shooting. it can something simple at placing poses in the wrong system, and then not removing them if asked to.
[:edit:] sorry audrea, seems you have beaten me to it ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:45:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 20/04/2006 14:46:44
Originally by: O Thief
BoB police their region, claim all of it, and make it clear to all on the Alliance map. There is no ambiguity.
CVA may or may not claim it, but they go to war anyway.
Distinct different - even Aralis admitted in an earlier post that he can't claim all of Providence due to insufficient resources. BoB make no such claim about Delve.
My original question still stands.
1) The alliance map is a 3rd party venture, it is made up from best guesses and various bits of information which people give to the creator. The CVA does not give information to the person involved so that map cannot be used as the gospel truth to confirm CVA claims. The CVA have never given any input to it.
2) CVA do claim the area in question, that claim was recognised by ISS in February. This claim is now being disupted by ISS leadership over their (inaccurate) defination of the word "to".
If I went on a journey from Rens to Tash Murkon Prime, my journey would not stop 1 jump short of Tash Murkon prime. I would be in it, there is a rather large difference there!
3) Aralis has admitted we can't claim all of Providence, which is why we only claim approximately half of it.
4) What was your original question? The first one you actually made was "Is it hardly suprising ISS reacted the way they did?". My *personal* answer to this is well CVA would be more annoyed at being told by someone that has been treated as friendly for an extended period of time "Tough". Especially when the point of accrimony is an ISS misunderstanding of a two letter word.
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Soltha SIl
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:47:00 -
[241]
Providence is claimed as an extension of the Empire by CVA. So I suppose they are within their rights to remove people who they donÆt see fit.
However the thing I donÆt understand, is that the empire allows foreign stations within its borders. I suppose the question I want to ask is : Why donÆt the CVA want ISS within their space?
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Princess Morenta
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:49:00 -
[242]
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Garreck
If ISS leadership was strong and visionary, they would see the benefits of working in partnership with other peace-loving alliances. That they failed to see this speaks volumes about how low ISS have sunk.
We could go round and round make generalizations back and forth.
The facts, however, are simple and well-recorded:
ISS places 4 frighteningly well armed stations with no recognizable industrial capacities in a system the CVA had unofficially claimed in a prior agreement.
Multiple attempts to contact ISS privately proved futile.
A public attempt got their attention but instead of moving the stations, we get hair-splitting and semantics of what "to" means. We are told "the stations stay."
So now we go to war. What else are we meant to do, use harsh language? An agreement has been broken, our sovereignty has been challenged. It strikes me as mildly humorous that only after the official answer of "no, we won't move the stations" is posted does ISS cry out for diplomacy.
CVA are in the wrong here.
So you go to war about a system you DO NOT currently claim. How ridiculous.
Fine, go to war the ISS then, it doenst directly bother me. I mean, I know you will lose, they have more members in their Navy than you have in your whole alliance. Maybe their Navy can make a territorial claim over half of Providence - that would be equally ridiculous. Then maybe you can see just how strange this CVA behaviour appears.
But you are painty a very glossy image of the 'facts' here.
I would ask you a very simple question, please answer it so I can at least try to understand where CVA are coming from:
Why is this system so important to you, and why do you object to ISS developing the system?
And, before you answer, shouting 'because we plan to claim it' clearly is not good enough.
You are in the wrong sir as part of ISS, I expected more than a petty argument from the director of the ISSN Navy - yes I see through your clever guise.
Your navy is a joke - you rely on experienced mercenaries...
So recognise the truth:
You failed to comprehend the meaning of the word "TO"
You failed to respond to peaceful requests
You failed to defuse the situation after a threat of war..
CVA did all they could for a peaceful resolution... Your attitude saddens me old friend.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:50:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Soltha SIl Providence is claimed as an extension of the Empire by CVA. So I suppose they are within their rights to remove people who they donÆt see fit.
However the thing I donÆt understand, is that the empire allows foreign stations within its borders. I suppose the question I want to ask is : Why donÆt the CVA want ISS within their space?
Easy answer there, because ISS put up several (I think it is up to 7 now) Large fully armed POS in a system which was part of the agreed claim that CVA and ISS made. Despite this being pointed out politely a long with a request to remove these POS we have had the sum total of "Well, we misunderstood your claim because "to" doesn't mean the same thing to us as it does everyone else."
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Torm Ilmater
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:56:00 -
[244]
Lemme point a few things out.
Originally by: Seleene Edited by: Seleene on 20/04/2006 05:58:50
As stated earlier in this thread, in our entire existence that spans over two years, the MC have been in the employ of ISS for barely fourteen days. Once was in response to a war declaration upon them in Empire that we helped deal with. The other was the deployment of the Borealis outpost in Pure Blind. Outside of those jobs, our contact with ISS has been cordial but minimal.
Secondly, referring to the Mercenary Coalition as anyone's 'lap dogs' is absurd and insulting. We are a professional, neutral military organization whose credentials and record speak for themselves.
I think you could more easily clear up the matter of your own neutrality were it not for the fact that since page one you've been referring to ISS as your client. If you had added in the word 'former' in there I would completely understand but stating they're your client at a point before hostilities erupted between CVA and ISS shows that you've been under their employ for more than the '14 days.' It also makes it appear as if you have a standing agreement (a contract maybe?) to jump to ISS aid in any case of combat (or potential combat) even before any contact from ISS leadership thus forcing people to agreements on ISS terms (woo gunboat diplomacy).
Yes yes I know, stupid conspiracy theory but still your references to ISS as your client are probably where people are drawing conclusions from. Makes people wonder if ISS hired you after their rebuttal of CVA via evemail or if you've been under ISS employ this entire time.
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Quote: Despite a request for specific systems and constellations, the only information ISS received from Aralis on the CVA planned future expansion was the area 'heading east out to f-yh5b and 3kb-10.'
Just in case there is any further confusion about 3Kb-10//Q-6LGI, CVA DO NOT claim these systems. They intend to expand into providence in some vague point 'not to soon'(tm) in the future.
ISS do not seek war, we seek development of underutilised 0.0 space. We consulted with the nearby inhabitants, and have respected the borders and future expansion of CVA, Ushra'Khana and Huzzah.
Another point from which people are probably getting the wrong idea. Your self contradictions in this post make it seem like ISS are doing what they want because they CAN. Doesn't seem to me in the least that you're respecting CVAs plans for "future expansion." You can say 'they don't need it NOW' all you want but by your own words you want to respect the local alliances future expansion plans. Nowhere in there do you state that the future expansion plans have to be reasonable or obvious (according to your point of view of course). They told you they wanted to expand to said systems and you are (despite your words to state otherwise) not respecting said plans.
There are a few voices of reason here and hopefully they will prevail without a major eruption of hostilities. ISS you've stated your stance of neutrality and your want to respect the plans of expansion of local alliances. Now is the time to prove those statements true.
I apologize if I offended anyone with my post but having a war erupt in my backyard over such stupid inconsistancies and miscommunication gets me a little riled up.
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:58:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Princess Morenta
CVA did all they could for a peaceful resolution... Your attitude saddens me old friend.
I do not know you and neither am I your friend.
My original questions to CVA still stand blatently unaswered.
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:03:00 -
[246]
To Torm Ilmater:
ISS have been a previous client of ours and we have just signed and been paid for a new contract, the particulars of which will become more apparent in the coming days but you can take it from me that we are under their employment again.
There is no standing contract or retainer with ISS
My Latest Vid (18/04/06) |
Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:08:00 -
[247]
Originally by: O Thief
That doesnt really answer the main question here: why does it bother you so much that some friends of yours are developing this system in the first place? Why is a system outside your original claimed borders suddenly now worth going to war over?
I'll tell you why - Aralis doesnt want ISS in Providence. Thats why. His reasons are purely personal, and you lot are foolish enough to tag along.
Let me correct you here, some *former* friends who are now trying to back peddle on an agreement and are waving Mercs infront of our noses as a thinly veild threat. Are trying to develop a system, which was agreed to be ours at the end of February by both ISS and CVA, *without our approval*.
Is it still not making sense to you?
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Ethidium Bromide
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:08:00 -
[248]
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide as the CVA's main purpose in providence is to make it a safe space under amarr laws i consider this not only a matter of personal allegiance and loyality but also an act of direct agression of the ISS against the empire and the people of amarr.
the little i can do to assist the CVA will be done.
I have heard rumour that the very highest echelons of Amarrian society shall attend the openings of the ISS Amarr Factory Outpost upon its completion in Providence in May.
You would be wise not to judge Ammarian favour - especially when Amarrians enjoy the rich benefits of trade from the ISS, and see nothing but petty warmongery from the CVA.
that is the way you think.... benefits, monetary benefits. you are a lost soul. this is about faith and honor, both of them principles you do not understand.
god will judge me, no one else.
_________________________________ just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:10:00 -
[249]
Edited by: O Thief on 20/04/2006 15:11:35
Originally by: Parallax Error
Originally by: O Thief
That doesnt really answer the main question here: why does it bother you so much that some friends of yours are developing this system in the first place? Why is a system outside your original claimed borders suddenly now worth going to war over?
I'll tell you why - Aralis doesnt want ISS in Providence. Thats why. His reasons are purely personal, and you lot are foolish enough to tag along.
Let me correct you here, some *former* friends who are now trying to back peddle on an agreement and are waving Mercs infront of our noses as a thinly veild threat. Are trying to develop a system, which was agreed to be ours at the end of February by both ISS and CVA, *without our approval*.
Is it still not making sense to you?
You're still not answering the question.
Why is a system you do not currently claim so important, and why does it bother you in the first place that ISS are developing it?
Unless you plan on developing this system yourself, what possible objection could you have?
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:12:00 -
[250]
But we do claim that system, oh obtuse one. That claim was recognised by ISS in February. Would it be easier to understand if I changed the word order round slightly?
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:16:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Parallax Error But we do claim that system, oh obtuse one. That claim was recognised by ISS in February. Would it be easier to understand if I changed the word order round slightly?
But you don't claim it. At best, you said you 'planned to claim it'.
Anyway - why is this system so important to you (worth fighting a war over), and why do you object to ISS developing the space when you share similar enemies and goals in relation to anti-pirating?
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Ric Tishek
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:21:00 -
[252]
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Parallax Error But we do claim that system, oh obtuse one. That claim was recognised by ISS in February. Would it be easier to understand if I changed the word order round slightly?
But you don't claim it. At best, you said you 'planned to claim it'.
Anyway - why is this system so important to you (worth fighting a war over), and why do you object to ISS developing the space when you share similar enemies and goals in relation to anti-pirating?
Why do you think you know better than CVA themselves which systems they claim?
To me it just seems that your name is program, Mr Thief.
is it really your spirit that manifests in your clone or is this just a Jovian trick to get fresh DNA for their minds? |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:24:00 -
[253]
Originally by: O Thief But you don't claim it. At best, you said you 'planned to claim it'.
Anyway - why is this system so important to you (worth fighting a war over), and why do you object to ISS developing the space when you share similar enemies and goals in relation to anti-pirating?
because, if they would not defend their claim, cva could as well just pack up and move out. thats the thing about politics... give in one time you get bullied, expect to get bullied all the way.
simple answer enough? ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Torm Ilmater
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:26:00 -
[254]
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Parallax Error But we do claim that system, oh obtuse one. That claim was recognised by ISS in February. Would it be easier to understand if I changed the word order round slightly?
But you don't claim it. At best, you said you 'planned to claim it'.
Those 'plans' to claim it are future plans of expansion which ISS said earlier in this thread that they'll respect any future plans of expansion. This doesn't look to me like any sort of "respect" that I know of unless they're showing their respect to CVA's pvp force by fighting with them.
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:27:00 -
[255]
So why do CVA so strongly object to ISS developing the system?
I still don't understand.
'oh no, our friends have put up POS in system we plan to claim, maybe, in the future - quick war dec them'.... its just not adding up
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Ric Tishek
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:34:00 -
[256]
Originally by: O Thief So why do CVA so strongly object to ISS developing the system?
I still don't understand.
'oh no, our friends have put up POS in system we plan to claim, maybe, in the future - quick war dec them'.... its just not adding up
If you steal something, you should expect to get in trouble with the owner, Mr Thief,
is it really your spirit that manifests in your clone or is this just a Jovian trick to get fresh DNA for their minds? |
Ender Andrews
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:35:00 -
[257]
Originally by: O Thief
Anyway - why is this system so important to you (worth fighting a war over)
Might I inqure why the ISS are so very keen on keeping this system if it holds no value for them? And who are you, mr Thief? You speak for the managment of ISS? You seem to be the most active pilot here. *grins*
It is amazing feat how very good people are geting at clouding threads, such as these. Good job, In the inital 4 pages I really thought CVA was at fault... Now im convinced its ISS. So, why do you insist on keeping *that* system if you are the peaceloving people you are?
- These are my opinons and questions, and no way related to my corp or alliance.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:37:00 -
[258]
Originally by: O Thief So why do CVA so strongly object to ISS developing the system?
I still don't understand.
'oh no, our friends have put up POS in system we plan to claim, maybe, in the future - quick war dec them'.... its just not adding up
Maybe, just maybe its not the developing of the system here thats the problem?
Maybe just possibly, its the manner in which it has been done? A previously friendly alliance places POS in a system we have an agreement about. We try and resolve this amicably only to be stalled and then told that in effect "tough luck, we're doing it anyway because when you said and we agreed your claim was "to xx-xxx and 3KB-PO" we do not recognise that saying to something means including it."
We are not going to be bullied by this, we are not going to roll over and quietly let it slip. Our agreement was made with a then friendly force and it has now been torn and thrown back in our faces when it no longer suits the plans of some members of ISS. It is not warmongering, it is protecting the principle of the agreement which was created in good faith, it is standing firm in the face of bully boy tactics and hostile posturing.
It is the correct, honourable and legitmate stance to take. And believe me, we are taking it seriously.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:39:00 -
[259]
Again, I *urge* the ISS to simply back off out of this worthless system.
This should have been done long before the argument escalated into conflict, but it is still not too late to unilaterally end the trouble. It won't make you seem weak...going to war over a single system might.
You do not want this war, you have almost nothing to gain from it and much to lose.
Quit bickering over semantics. The CVA clearly feel threatened at this point, and the ISS shouldn't be flexing muscle. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:42:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Parallax Error A previously friendly alliance places POS in a system we have an agreement about. We try and resolve this amicably only to be stalled and then told that in effect "tough luck, we're doing it anyway because when you said and we agreed your claim was "to xx-xxx and 3KB-PO" we do not recognise that saying to something means including it."
We are not going to be bullied by this, we are not going to roll over and quietly let it slip. Our agreement was made with a then friendly force and it has now been torn and thrown back in our faces when it no longer suits the plans of some members of ISS. It is not warmongering, it is protecting the principle of the agreement which was created in good faith, it is standing firm in the face of bully boy tactics and hostile posturing.
I really do wonder why this seems to be such a mind-blowing concept for a lot of people...
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:55:00 -
[261]
2006.04.20 15:11 Curatores Veritatis Alliance has declared war on Interstellar Starbase Syndicate. After 24 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved. -----------------
Please disregard my previous post stating that CVA are not valid targets for the ISSN. Given this development, they now have permission to actively engage.
Though I hope diplomacy still wins, I really do.
To my friends in the CVA, and organisations friendly to them (you know who you are) - you have my utmost respect and it will be 'interesting' being on the other side of your lasers, to say the least.
I only hope this situation is quickly resolved by the diplomats, as I shall take no pleasure fighting CVA.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:55:00 -
[262]
Nice to see the CVA declaring war against the ISS.
Forget the "behind doors" diplomatic approach. You want war, good :)
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:56:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Originally by: O Thief So why do CVA so strongly object to ISS developing the system?
I still don't understand.
'oh no, our friends have put up POS in system we plan to claim, maybe, in the future - quick war dec them'.... its just not adding up
Maybe, just maybe its not the developing of the system here thats the problem?
Maybe just possibly, its the manner in which it has been done? A previously friendly alliance places POS in a system we have an agreement about. We try and resolve this amicably only to be stalled and then told that in effect "tough luck, we're doing it anyway because when you said and we agreed your claim was "to xx-xxx and 3KB-PO" we do not recognise that saying to something means including it."
We are not going to be bullied by this, we are not going to roll over and quietly let it slip. Our agreement was made with a then friendly force and it has now been torn and thrown back in our faces when it no longer suits the plans of some members of ISS. It is not warmongering, it is protecting the principle of the agreement which was created in good faith, it is standing firm in the face of bully boy tactics and hostile posturing.
It is the correct, honourable and legitmate stance to take. And believe me, we are taking it seriously.
Except that in the beginning instead of taking negotiations to the table you became the bullies and threatened open war. You can go back and say all you want but if you go back through the comms it was stated by the CVA that they would go war. You are the ones bullying ISS around not the other way around.
Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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samba mk2
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:01:00 -
[264]
hats of to CVA for not hiding behind mercs, I hope u pwn ISS and all there suicide fleets they throw out
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:05:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Originally by: Soltha SIl Providence is claimed as an extension of the Empire by CVA. So I suppose they are within their rights to remove people who they donÆt see fit.
However the thing I donÆt understand, is that the empire allows foreign stations within its borders. I suppose the question I want to ask is : Why donÆt the CVA want ISS within their space?
Easy answer there, because ISS put up several (I think it is up to 7 now) Large fully armed POS in a system which was part of the agreed claim that CVA and ISS made. Despite this being pointed out politely a long with a request to remove these POS we have had the sum total of "Well, we misunderstood your claim because "to" doesn't mean the same thing to us as it does everyone else."
It does not bode well if the ISS have been placing POS in the disputed system while this discussion has been ongoing.
I suggest that they do not add any more to the total as an act of good faith.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Ethidium Bromide
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:06:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
Originally by: Parallax Error
Originally by: O Thief So why do CVA so strongly object to ISS developing the system?
I still don't understand.
'oh no, our friends have put up POS in system we plan to claim, maybe, in the future - quick war dec them'.... its just not adding up
Maybe, just maybe its not the developing of the system here thats the problem?
Maybe just possibly, its the manner in which it has been done? A previously friendly alliance places POS in a system we have an agreement about. We try and resolve this amicably only to be stalled and then told that in effect "tough luck, we're doing it anyway because when you said and we agreed your claim was "to xx-xxx and 3KB-PO" we do not recognise that saying to something means including it."
We are not going to be bullied by this, we are not going to roll over and quietly let it slip. Our agreement was made with a then friendly force and it has now been torn and thrown back in our faces when it no longer suits the plans of some members of ISS. It is not warmongering, it is protecting the principle of the agreement which was created in good faith, it is standing firm in the face of bully boy tactics and hostile posturing.
It is the correct, honourable and legitmate stance to take. And believe me, we are taking it seriously.
Except that in the beginning instead of taking negotiations to the table you became the bullies and threatened open war. You can go back and say all you want but if you go back through the comms it was stated by the CVA that they would go war. You are the ones bullying ISS around not the other way around.
if you were asked by someone where he should put his stuff and you tell him where not to and than that person puts it exactly where you asked him NOT to and direct contact fails then i'd call that provocation at least.
furthermore you get payed to fight anyway so do not pretend to have any morale standards.
oh and conserning 'bullying', what is this? a schoolyard fight? _________________________________ just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:13:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
Except that in the beginning instead of taking negotiations to the table you became the bullies and threatened open war. You can go back and say all you want but if you go back through the comms it was stated by the CVA that they would go war. You are the ones bullying ISS around not the other way around.
well... if you would do as you suggest, youd discover that prior to the threat of war there have been private communication attempts through eve mail that didnt talk about war at first but that asked for clarification and removal of that POSes... ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:26:00 -
[268]
While I try not to get involved in political situations anymore, it saddens me to see two great entities going to war over a minor mistake. Some people will probably ask why I am commenting - to them I say that I am both an ISS shareholder, as well as considering myself a friend to some of those involved on the CVA's side.
I see the only resolution to this apalling situation as this: * ISS needs to admit they made a mistake and apologise. * ISS needs to remove the POS from a system that CVA has claimed as part of it's protectorate. * In a show of good faith and to help foster the peace that both entities wish to bring to the area, CVA should help the ISS move the POS to an area that is agreed to, and possibly help protect the area while ISS constructs it's outpost.
Yes, this is asking for proud people to admit they were wrong and perform actions that many would find extraordinary, but I believe that if both organisations have the same final goals, it would benefit both to do so.
In final, a plea. CVA has my respect as being the sword & shield of the Amarrian Empire, your work to promote peace in a lawless area is outstanding. ISS also hasmy respect as a business conglomerate that is helping to broaden trade and colonization to places in our universethat were barren. You are both fine examples, stop this bloodshed and work together. ----------------------
I have a blog |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:31:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Omber Zombie While I try not to get involved in political situations anymore, it saddens me to see two great entities going to war over a minor mistake. Some people will probably ask why I am commenting - to them I say that I am both an ISS shareholder, as well as considering myself a friend to some of those involved on the CVA's side.
I see the only resolution to this apalling situation as this: * ISS needs to admit they made a mistake and apologise. * ISS needs to remove the POS from a system that CVA has claimed as part of it's protectorate. * In a show of good faith and to help foster the peace that both entities wish to bring to the area, CVA should help the ISS move the POS to an area that is agreed to, and possibly help protect the area while ISS constructs it's outpost.
Yes, this is asking for proud people to admit they were wrong and perform actions that many would find extraordinary, but I believe that if both organisations have the same final goals, it would benefit both to do so.
In final, a plea. CVA has my respect as being the sword & shield of the Amarrian Empire, your work to promote peace in a lawless area is outstanding. ISS also hasmy respect as a business conglomerate that is helping to broaden trade and colonization to places in our universethat were barren. You are both fine examples, stop this bloodshed and work together.
I believe that Omber's suggestion is a good starting point for negotiations.
Perhaps he could chair a meeting between the two sides?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:34:00 -
[270]
Rodj, while I am honoured by that suggestion, I would suggest Admiral Trevize would be a better candidate. He is an honourable man, and his heart & mind lies in both camps. He would be a fair moderator as both parties seem to consider him a traitor. ----------------------
I have a blog |
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:43:00 -
[271]
Chain Gang, you seem to want to inflame the situation. Why?
And beringe, while feelings may have been hurt by what Admiral Trevize has said previously, he is still an honourable man, who I believe has the best intentions of helping his people as well as his employers in mind. ----------------------
I have a blog |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:47:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Get real CVA
This is as real as it gets.
I'm impressed with Omber Zombie's suggestion, though. Just because ISS have initially told us "tough luck" doesn't mean they shouldn't have an opportunity to change their minds.
That's something for the diplomats, though. Until I'm given orders to the contrary, ISS targets in CVA space will be dealt with accordingly.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:53:00 -
[273]
At this point, any sort of mediator for any sort of diplomacy would be an improvement. If Admiral Trevize is up for it, I urge him to contact the relevant people to start the talks.
Chain Gang, you're not helping. In fact, there's been a decent amount of non-ISS, non-CVA people randomly pouring oil on this fire for a while now. I hope the involved parties are ignoring them. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Centuria
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Posted - 2006.04.20 16:58:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Get real CVA
Well, Chain? You appear to be one of those cursed Alt's... Why do you not just post with your main?
Makes life alot more fun, You'll see!
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:06:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Serenity Steele on 20/04/2006 17:07:24
Originally by: Parallax Error
Firstly, ISS contacted the CVA end of February at which point ISS and CVA came to an agreement about the areas we considered to be our protectorate. This is the agreement where there has been a misunderstanding about the meaning of the word 'to'. It seems the dictionary definition only counts if it backs up what you want, otherwise its meaning is open to whatever interpretation you wish to place on it.
CVA did not fire a shot until after Count Tassenine's post in this thread stating that the removal of the POS in the debated system was not going to happen. This follows at least a full week of attempts to sort this out amicably.
CVA has always maintained a claim on the system in question, ever since ISS approached us and asked at the end of February. It has always been part of our space according to the agreements we have with ISS (and Huzzah for that matter).
(Edited for spelling and grammer only)
Parallax Error: The issue is not of whether is was 'to' or 'to and including'.
Aralis outright refused ISS's offer to an alternative system next to 3Kb, as CVA allegedly claim the entire constellation.
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
ISS relied on the information of those negotiations to make plans, and now those plans don't suit CVA, they have decided to war dec.
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Orilion
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:09:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Originally by: Parallax Error
Firstly, ISS contacted the CVA end of February at which point ISS and CVA came to an agreement about the areas we considered to be our protectorate. This is the agreement where there has been a misunderstanding about the meaning of the word 'to'. It seems the dictionary definition only counts if it backs up what you want, otherwise its meaning is open to whatever interpretation you wish to place on it.
CVA did not fire a shot until after Count Tassenine's post in this thread stating that the removal of the POS in the debated system was not going to happen. This follows at least a full week of attempts to sort this out amicably.
CVA has always maintained a claim on the system in question, ever since ISS approached us and asked at the end of February. It has always been part of our space according to the agreements we have with ISS (and Huzzah for that matter).
(Edited for spelling and grammer only)
Parallax Error: The issue is not of whether is was 'to' or 'to and including'.
Aralis outright refused ISS's offer to an alternative system next to 3Kb, as CVA allegedly claim the entire constellation.
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
The alternative system that was offered is actually one step further in our territory, which is naturally not acceptable.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:17:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
With all due respect, that's not the case any more. It may be that the CVA did not communicate their planned expansion well enough, but now it should be clear to all involved what that expansion entails.
Right now, it should be the ISS' responsibility to not destabilize the area further without due cause, and thus hurt shareholder interests.
By giving up this system, conflict would be avoided. And really, why would the ISS so adamantly hold on to this system?
Do the right thing now. Don't let pride get in the way of a stable Providence. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:19:00 -
[278]
I am real as you get .......
Simple fact is that the CVA hit the Instant War Dec... that tells you alot .. want peace ... my ass.
Kill them and move on ...
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:22:00 -
[279]
Edited by: Omber Zombie on 20/04/2006 17:23:03 Chain, answer my question please or refrain from spouting uninformed rubbish. You are giving the Gallente a bad name by urging war for no apparant reason.
edit: spelling ----------------------
I have a blog |
Vincent Gaines
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:26:00 -
[280]
CVA knew we would not shoot first in any non-war declared relationship. They knew that yesterday when this started.
I believe there was a rush to war without enough diplomacy, and I'm sad to have recieved news of the war declaration.
Enemies of stability and progress are rejoicing right now.
These views are my own, not official.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:26:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Chain Gang on 20/04/2006 17:26:25
Quote: Chain, answer my question please or refrain from spouting uniformed rubbish. You are giving the Gallente a bad name by urging war for no apparant reason.
You are in no position to ask anything ...
But I would suggest the ISS to give nothing to an alliance that insta war decs and whines on the forums about peace ....
1) Butter Dog asks all ISSN pilots to stay away from CVA Space.
2) CVA War Decs ...
Even the simplest person (even you) can see how this is nothing more than bullying .....
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:27:00 -
[282]
well.. what makes me wonder, is why ISS offered to move to another system within cva claimed space when they would just have to go 1 system farther than what they suggested (DP-JD4) wich is OUTSIDE the claimed space...
an idea to think about maybe?
----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:30:00 -
[283]
Quote: an idea to think about maybe?
The ISS had lots of ideas no doubt .... and like any normal alliance they asked their pilots to stay at home while they explored them ..
Unlike the CVA who just War Dec'd and then screamed foul .. pathetic.
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Orilion
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:30:00 -
[284]
Why does anyone even bother to reason with Chain Gang ? Its obvious he is here to flame...
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:32:00 -
[285]
Flame ... lol
What part of my post was incorrect ...
1) Butter Dog asked all ISSN pilots to stay away ...
2) You declared war ......
Seems honest to me ... but I suppose the truth hurts for you guys.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:33:00 -
[286]
Chain Gang has a point ... forget all the long sentences.
They asked there pilots to stay away and the cva sent a war message ... seems clear.
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Goodtime Girl
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:34:00 -
[287]
Seems like the "way not" to do politics CVA ...
Someone suggests a ceasefire and you make the war official. Smart move.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:34:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
These views are my own, not official.
Appreciated, but since there are several ISS members that have now stated that they don't want this conflict (and, in fact, none who has stated that they do), one would think that there should now be an insider lobby dedicated to settling this peacefully.
Come on, guys. This is a case of too damn close. Somebody step over the line and offer a handshake of truce. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:37:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Zooish
They asked there pilots to stay away and the cva sent a war message ... seems clear.
Except, of course, the terms are not "move your pilots out of our space." The terms are "move your stations out of our space." When ISS shows interest in complying, then we can stand down from a hostile stance.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:40:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Chain Gang 1) Butter Dog asks all ISSN pilots to stay away from CVA Space.
2) CVA War Decs ...
Even the simplest person (even you) can see how this is nothing more than bullying .....
For someone who followed the thread since the very beginning I would have expected more knowledge about the matter at hand. Aralis has given ISS 24h to reply. The official response was that our request of the POSs' removal was denied. Since that it hasn't changed a bit.
Why should we now wait just because the ISS Navy states that they won't attack us for now? The reason for the war are those control towers, not the ISS Navy. The ISS Navy doesn't negotiate the deal. The ISS management does. And they haven't changed their stance.
As Aralis has stated, he is very much willing to stop/hold the war if ISS wants to take down those towers.
Originally by: Aralis 5) We would be more than happy to let ISS remove it's POS and if it states that it will do so and wishes to return to the previous state of neutrality then that can easily be arranged.
I am hoping for a peaceful solution to this as well. This war is going to hurt both parties. But until then, I will do anything in my reach to help the cva.
Forsch Defender of the empire |
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:41:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Goodtime Girl Seems like the "way not" to do politics CVA ...
Someone suggests a ceasefire and you make the war official. Smart move.
now thats a good one...
define the word ceasefire as you use it... to my knowledge (i may have missed something, but id rather doubt it) there was no talk about a ceasefire... ISS offered to move to another system claimed by CVA. Now, it might not have been the best idea to task the Admiral with the negotiations, considering the bad words that have been traded before. I suggested a system a bit up in this thread (DP-JD4) wich is 1 jump further from what ISS suggested, and 2 jumps from the system the whole incident got started about.
I can not do more than try to mediate, take it for what its worth. ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:41:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Chain Gang Edited by: Chain Gang on 20/04/2006 17:26:25
Quote: Chain, answer my question please or refrain from spouting uniformed rubbish. You are giving the Gallente a bad name by urging war for no apparant reason.
You are in no position to ask anything ...
Actually, I am. As a Gallente citizen I am insulted that you are urging these two organizations to continue bloodshed instead of seeking a peaceful resolution. You have avoided explaining why this situation should interest you in the slightest (I hoped that as a Gallente you would be interested simply to stop the bloodshed), and as such, I see no need for your constant calls for bloodshed? Have you been employed by someoneto say this or are you just simply interested in causing people to die needlessly?
Originally by: Chain Gang
Even the simplest person (even you) can see how this is nothing more than bullying .....
Even though I must be simpler than the simplest person, I find it amusing that you see this situation as 'nothing more than bullying'. There is far more involved here than you or I know about, and insulting my intelligence does not make you look more intelligent. ----------------------
I have a blog |
Orilion
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:43:00 -
[293]
I am curious why do people make assumptions and accusations about something they have very litle knowlegde of. Even if you have read every post in here, which is usually not the case, there is still so much going in game that is not published here....
If you are going to make a comment, please inform yourself before instead of demanding questions that have been answered many times by now.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:44:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Parallax Error: The issue is not of whether is was 'to' or 'to and including'.
Aralis outright refused ISS's offer to an alternative system next to 3Kb, as CVA allegedly claim the entire constellation.
The issue is simply that the burden of responsibility lies with CVA's diplomats to accurately communicate your borders and future plans during the negotations.
ISS relied on the information of those negotiations to make plans, and now those plans don't suit CVA, they have decided to war dec.
No its fairly simple, as Orillion said the supposed alternative system is actually further into the area we are talking about. Quite how you can say that you were offering an alternative when:
a) Large fully armed POS number 4 or 5 was being onlined
b) The alternative was one jump further into the disputed area.
The claim and the agreement is pretty straightforward from my position, to me the only thing ISS has relied upon so far is CVA capitulating at the first sign of trouble. Infact i'm starting to believe that its pretty damn obvious that you were going to take something in that constellation regardless of what was going to happen or what was previously agreed.
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Centuria
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:45:00 -
[295]
Chain, If an alt makes a corp, he isn't an alt anymore? I guess Mongo Peck is your main, eh? Shady background on that one.
And that 'Zooish'... *sigh*
Oz, ya can't expect puppets to uphold anything but flames. :)
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:47:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Zooish Chain Gang has a point ... forget all the long sentences.
They asked there pilots to stay away and the cva sent a war message ... seems clear.
Yah. Gog hit rock wid club. Gog hate rock. Long sent-duh-ces hard.
The only thing that's clear to me is that you and Chain Gang understand the situation even less than would be expected of someone with the reading comprehension of a ten-year old.
There's posturing and lack of communcation...and you think it would be best solved by...more posturing and lack of communication? Please. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:52:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Goodtime Girl Seems like the "way not" to do politics CVA ...
Someone suggests a ceasefire and you make the war official. Smart move.
Speaking for myself again, I am confident that if ISS leadership gave any indication of intent to remove their starbases CVA would be very reasonable in providing them a ceasefire and all the time they needed to do this, and likely even cover, as we provide to all non-hostiles in our space.
Without that statement of intent coming from an official ISS source I can't see us allowing ISS time to solidify their control of this part of CVA space.
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Sushi Tanaka
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:59:00 -
[298]
Seems like a war dec is the only way to prove that you're serious. CVA's demand of starbase removal was met with outright defiance by ISS, which seems in violation of thier charter.
Originally by: ISS Charter 0.0 region access terms - All member corporations are to respect the terms under which they gain access to 0.0 space under host alliances. - Terms are specific to each region and are posted on the ISS forums. - If a member corporation disregards these terms and conditions, or overwhelming circumstantial evidence to this effect is presented, the ISS will proceed to expel the member corporation.
It is through respect for these terms that your corporation can operate in 0.0. The operation of the ISS depends on the strict observance of the conditions and terms under which we operate in host territories.
When this flared up, wouldn't it have been reasonable for the offending corporation to simply contact CVA, apologize and remove the starbases?
But instead, that corporation passed it off to ISS management to deal with. The result was said management declaring that the starbases would not be removed and CVA should reduce it's claim by one system.
When confronted by an encroaching superpower, what choices do the residents have when negotiation fail? 1) Comply and hope it doesn't happen again. (Appeasment) 2) Fight back.
CVA has chosen to defend it's claim, which is its right to do.
But one must wonder why the offending corporation didn't take the high-road and negotiate removal of its assets on its own. Are they being used for ulterior motives by the ISS managment? |
Ethidium Bromide
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:08:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Ethidium Bromide on 20/04/2006 18:11:21
Originally by: Sushi Tanaka Seems like a war dec is the only way to prove that you're serious. CVA's demand of starbase removal was met with outright defiance by ISS, which seems in violation of thier charter.
Originally by: ISS Charter 0.0 region access terms - All member corporations are to respect the terms under which they gain access to 0.0 space under host alliances. - Terms are specific to each region and are posted on the ISS forums. - If a member corporation disregards these terms and conditions, or overwhelming circumstantial evidence to this effect is presented, the ISS will proceed to expel the member corporation.
It is through respect for these terms that your corporation can operate in 0.0. The operation of the ISS depends on the strict observance of the conditions and terms under which we operate in host territories.
When this flared up, wouldn't it have been reasonable for the offending corporation to simply contact CVA, apologize and remove the starbases?
But instead, that corporation passed it off to ISS management to deal with. The result was said management declaring that the starbases would not be removed and CVA should reduce it's claim by one system.
When confronted by an encroaching superpower, what choices do the residents have when negotiation fail? 1) Comply and hope it doesn't happen again. (Appeasment) 2) Fight back.
CVA has chosen to defend it's claim, which is its right to do.
But one must wonder why the offending corporation didn't take the high-road and negotiate removal of its assets on its own. Are they being used for ulterior motives by the ISS managment?
not only is it very interesting to read this (yes i have missed to read any ISS descriptions so far) but this also indicates how ISS is trying to put their interests above others. if the CVA doesn't make them stop here, the rights of others would be ignored.
thank you for pointing out how just this fight is! _________________________________ just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:11:00 -
[300]
Yesterday, the OEC engaged and helped destroy an ISS Brutix entering into the Providence region. We have done so purposefully but not without regrets. We have performed many combat actions and patrols near ISS Margins, and look forward to its continued success. Although we are only a small mercenary group seeking only our next contractàthe winds of war cannot be easily ignored for our honor bound charge to all members that bear our insignia.
The OEC has been grateful to our hosts in Providence, the CVA. Therefore we will join with them if there are any conflicts with the ISS. Although we are small, and in large part insignificant to most chartered corporations operating here, we do this out of honoràa trait that is often forgotten once one passes an empireÆs borders into the abyss. Our hope is that hostilities will cease sooner rather than later, but we commit to seeing whatever the end results are from this ordeal.
Personally, I have seen many warsàwhich I will not reminisce about here. It is undoubtedly the agent of changeàa great force that often starts with a drop of rain that turns into a tsunami of destruction. Many great things have been built upon the shores of the great Amarrian Empire, and I for one will be watching from the ramparts the approaching storm with mild enthusiasm.
Glory to the FightersàStrength in Arms,
---------------------------------
Karash Amerius Tac Coordinator, OEC
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:27:00 -
[301]
well there is nothing more to say really, iss has broken their own charter with this intrusion.
"We brake for nobody"
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Ikvar
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:40:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Karash Amerius Yesterday, the OEC engaged and helped destroy an ISS Brutix
Originally by: xsolarisx eve-online takes money out my credit card each month without my permission
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:55:00 -
[303]
Quote: well there is nothing more to say really, iss has broken their own charter with this intrusion.
Sorry chaters don't cover ..... we may want the whole of providence.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:57:00 -
[304]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 20/04/2006 18:56:40
Originally by: Sushi Tanaka Seems like a war dec is the only way to prove that you're serious. CVA's demand of starbase removal was met with outright defiance by ISS, which seems in violation of thier charter.
Originally by: ISS Charter 0.0 region access terms - All member corporations are to respect the terms under which they gain access to 0.0 space under host alliances.
Precisely. This space was "unclaimed" under the agreement between ISS and the CVA, and thus not subject to that clause, given there was no "host alliance".
Or, in other words, the CVA are being their usual bigoted pig-dog selves and making smash and run power grabs at the least opportunity, taking delight in preying on a civilian power which was following what they believed to be the agreement.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 19:03:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Precisely. This space was "unclaimed" under the agreement between ISS and the CVA, and thus not subject to that clause, given there was no "host alliance".
Or, in other words, the CVA are being their usual bigoted pig-dog selves and making smash and run power grabs at the least opportunity, taking delight in preying on a civilian power which was following what they believed to be the agreement.
oh, so finally Jericho Fraktion has found this thread. Of course they know EXACTLY what happened (even as ISS officials commited there has been a misunderstanding on their part) and now gives good advice.. thanks you..
----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.20 19:04:00 -
[306]
Probably looking for a reason to chime in.
Now recruiting!
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Tana Quil
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Posted - 2006.04.20 19:25:00 -
[307]
Edited by: Tana Quil on 20/04/2006 19:25:30 CVA should declare against ISS if they refuse to cancel their new outpost. CVA beliefs have held strong in the past and im sure they will now, as for mercs going into the lower domain and providence region to aid ISS i can tell you now ONLY The Priory play there and we will move back to the area and personally remove any mercs. |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.04.20 19:34:00 -
[308]
Enough people are posting in this thred, which serves as nothing but a public henhouse.
We have minor pilots and self-appointed representants from all sides participating, further inflaming the situation to a point where nothing can be solved between the parties.
Know this, that nothing said in this thred further will aid anything but in the destruction and loss of property for all sides involved. It is in neither ISS' nor in CVA's best interest to continue this thred as both parties agree, at the very least, that stability is necessary in the region. Know that negotiations must be held privately where yields, admittances, and offers of appeasement can be dealt without the loss of percieved honour in the public eye.
Know that this public discussion has run it's course, regardless of the outcome of continued private discussions - be it war or be it peace.
Those of you who wish to destabilize the region, and aid the unlawful elements in both Providence and Catch, will continue posting. Your side matters little, your stance less. You will all aid terrorist elements by keeping this discussion alive, here, where it do not belong.
I will see ISS' enemies on the field of battle, and I will wish those not oposing ISS good health and prosperity.
Latest EVE musing (MC-boards) |
Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.20 20:07:00 -
[309]
ISS back down on this, CVA might be making "rediculus claims", but you agreed to those, and your entire alliances basis is on maintaning neutrallity for all of EVE. If you still want to maintain that, then you would simply admit you we're wrong and take down those POS.
I am still hopeful that the leaders of ISS will come to their sinces and not continue this abuse of power.
I can say that for now AM will remain neutral while operating in providence unless we are fired on first, but time will tell if this might change. www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
M00dy
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Posted - 2006.04.20 20:15:00 -
[310]
Edited by: M00dy on 20/04/2006 20:15:51
ISSN Recruitment Thread |
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GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:11:00 -
[311]
Originally by: Ztang Canary
Quote: The MC will do nothing to further inflame this situation.
As if you havent done enough, and by the looks of it, continue to do so. Every word uttered here by MC seems to indicate you have an active interest in this, far removed from being a mere "hired help".
I believe my superior officers already alluded to the fact, but let me reiterate. Here, the MC is speaking against hostilities with CVA not because of some hidden ulterior motives, but simply because several former members of CVA are amongst our number. We know very well the bonds of brotherhood that form between people who fight together for mutual goals and our leadership shows great respect towards their captains by going so far in trying to prevent a situation which is potentially uncomfortable for both sides.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:26:00 -
[312]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 20/04/2006 21:28:57 It is a dissapointment to see people who should be working together to bring much needed stability to fringe bickering amongst eachother over what seems to be a semantics argument.
I would also ask for those former PIE members who have become mercenaries to remember their old loyalties, to Remember that they are Amarr adn that their most valuable work has been for God and not ISK.
I would hope that should things come to war in this situation that those warriors for God might remember this, and remember their souls. It would be a shame indeed to see them undo the good they have done for their souls in service to Amarr for the sake of ISK. Instead I would ask that you, those former servants of Amarr, work to defuse this war. Work to make peace and not bloodshed for Amarrians and in doing so serve Amarr as mercenaries if you chose to no longer work as its servants.
God is with us. PIE Website |
Ka'lorn Font'a
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:42:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 20/04/2006 21:35:51 Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 20/04/2006 21:28:57 It is a dissapointment to see people who should be working together to bring much needed stability to fringe bickering amongst eachother over what seems to be a semantics argument.
I would also ask for those former PIE members who have become mercenaries to remember their old loyalties, to Remember that they are Amarr adn that their most valuable work has been for God and not ISK.
I would hope that should things come to war in this situation that those warriors for God might remember this, and remember their souls. It would be a shame indeed to see them undo the good they have done for their souls in service to Amarr for the sake of ISK. Instead I would ask that you, those former servants of Amarr, work to defuse this war. Work to make peace and not bloodshed for Amarrians and in doing so serve Amarr as mercenaries if you chose to no longer work as its servants. Just do not damn your souls by the killing of still loyal supporters of Amarr.
Admiral Lok'ri, as previously stated, both Admiral Trevize and myself wish a peaceful resolution to this matter. Vice Admiral Caya also has expressed wishes for a swift, blood-free resolution.
Let differences be put aside, to work against the common evil that is pirates in Providence, not alliances which should be friendly.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:44:00 -
[314]
Would would ISS, a civilian entity formed of pilots from every Empire want to work with a Paramilitari, Amarian reactionaist entity?
The idea they have something in common is laughable.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Sushi Tanaka
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:44:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Ithildin We have minor pilots and self-appointed representants from all sides participating, further inflaming the situation to a point where nothing can be solved between the parties.
Mr. Kettle? Mr. Pot called, he said "you're black!" |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:54:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 20/04/2006 21:44:32
Would would ISS, a civilian entity formed of pilots from every Empire want to work with a Paramilitary, Amarian reactionaist entity?
The idea they have something in common is laughable.
there we go, the gasoline squad known as jf is rolling again...
for your info... if ISS really IS neutral, that means they WONT interfer with the politics or political views of the various alliances.
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Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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The Cosmopolite
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:06:00 -
[317]
Jericho Fraction Official Position
We see no profit to anyone in this war as it happens. We said so long before you turned up in this thread so take your irrational hatreds elsewhere.
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:14:00 -
[318]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction Official Position
We see no profit to anyone in this war as it happens. We said so long before you turned up in this thread so take your irrational hatreds elsewhere.
The Cosmopolite
i can accept that positon... as for the irational hatred though...
Originally by: "Maya Rkell" Or, in other words, the CVA are being their usual bigoted pig-dog selves and making smash and run power grabs at the least opportunity, taking delight in preying on a civilian power which was following what they believed to be the agreement.
Originally by: "Maya Rkell" Would would ISS, a civilian entity formed of pilots from every Empire want to work with a Paramilitary, Amarian reactionaist entity?.
your Fraction of course is free of that, yes?
----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:19:00 -
[319]
Free of what, precisely? Free of having to waste force protecting "borders"? Yea.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:32:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Free of what, precisely? Free of having to waste force protecting "borders"? Yea.
common sense dictates not posting on the forum under crash and/or frentix intoxication.... it would spare you the embarrasment of having to ask silly questions like the above. ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:33:00 -
[321]
Common sense would dictate that you never bothered to define the question.
I'm guessing Blue Pill.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:37:00 -
[322]
*Manfred Doomhammer looks surprised*
you do not even know WHAT you are taking?! of course that would explain a lot... ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:42:00 -
[323]
Snort. Or maybe you're just using endorphin-X
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:49:00 -
[324]
well.. you can never know if i am doing or if its just your drug intoxication making you think i do... scary, huh? ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Blacklight
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Posted - 2006.04.20 23:38:00 -
[325]
Amusing to see Maya sticking her oar in where it is least needed as usual.
If ISS and CVA get into a fight over something as trivial as this we're going to come over and blow you both back to the stoneage just for the laughs by the way
Eve Blacklight Style
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Bhaal
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Posted - 2006.04.21 00:04:00 -
[326]
I read this entire f'ing thread...
What a waste of time...
Grow up... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Princess Morenta
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Posted - 2006.04.21 00:34:00 -
[327]
Edited by: Princess Morenta on 21/04/2006 00:39:52 Edited by: Princess Morenta on 21/04/2006 00:36:14
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Princess Morenta
CVA did all they could for a peaceful resolution... Your attitude saddens me old friend.
I do not know you and neither am I your friend.
My original questions to CVA still stand blatently unaswered.
Oh but you do and you was...
Just like your using your guise - Im using mine, We cant have the ISSN Director grilling CVA with his main now can we? Wouldnt express well for the ISS either...
Just for the same reason I use my own guise to post my views - to avoid any blame on my corp for my own views.
Thank you
Originally by: Ender Andrews
Originally by: O Thief
Anyway - why is this system so important to you (worth fighting a war over)
Might I inqure why the ISS are so very keen on keeping this system if it holds no value for them? And who are you, mr Thief? You speak for the managment of ISS? You seem to be the most active pilot here. *grins*
It is amazing feat how very good people are geting at clouding threads, such as these. Good job, In the inital 4 pages I really thought CVA was at fault... Now im convinced its ISS. So, why do you insist on keeping *that* system if you are the peaceloving people you are?
- These are my opinons and questions, and no way related to my corp or alliance.
It is the alt of Butter dog - ISSN Navy director thats why
Originally by: Butter Dog 2006.04.20 15:11 Curatores Veritatis Alliance has declared war on Interstellar Starbase Syndicate. After 24 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved. -----------------
Please disregard my previous post stating that CVA are not valid targets for the ISSN. Given this development, they now have permission to actively engage.
Though I hope diplomacy still wins, I really do.
To my friends in the CVA, and organisations friendly to them (you know who you are) - you have my utmost respect and it will be 'interesting' being on the other side of your lasers, to say the least.
I only hope this situation is quickly resolved by the diplomats, as I shall take no pleasure fighting CVA.
Bull**** you've just contradicted it with your alt...
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xHjfx
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Posted - 2006.04.21 00:44:00 -
[328]
Edited by: xHjfx on 21/04/2006 00:52:17
Originally by: Vincent Gaines CVA knew we would not shoot first in any non-war declared relationship. They knew that yesterday when this started.
I believe there was a rush to war without enough diplomacy, and I'm sad to have recieved news of the war declaration.
Enemies of stability and progress are rejoicing right now.
These views are my own, not official.
Just my two piece in the matter... Why did ISSN send a frigate taskforce into CVA space then? That wasnt an act of peace, that was an act of war... even before any official declaration.
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insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 02:56:00 -
[329]
2006.04.20 15:11 Curatores Veritatis Alliance has declared war on Interstellar Starbase Syndicate. After 24 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved.
they gank'd industrials and we responded
we DID NOT fire the first shot knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Tyrrax Thorrk
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Posted - 2006.04.21 03:03:00 -
[330]
Golan Trevize is the finest example of what Amarr should be I have ever encountered, anyone who would question his loyalty to the Empire is an ignorant fool.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.21 03:10:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/04/2006 03:10:39 I would suggest ISSN that you gave the CVA an entirely valid casus belli in building in territory claimed by CVA for Amarr.
War is about more than fireing the first shot, and as the invaders into Amarrian claimed territory it is the ISS who are the agressors in this situation, and the CVA declaration qualifies as a just and defensive war of longstanding claims.
The proverbial ball is in the ISS court here, you must initiate peace for peace to exist as it is you who have chosen to transgress by the placing of heavily armed starbases in space obviously claimed by the CVA. Should you offer this removal now before too much blood is spilt, then I would be truely disappointed in the CVA should they not be open to an agreement such as the one proposed by Omber.
If you wish to pretend to be the neutral corporation you claim to be, ISS, then I suggest that you act like it.
I would hope that all Imperial supporters are watching the development of this situation intently, as the CVA is a true supporter of the Amarrian people and the Empire of God.
God is with us. PIE Website |
insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 03:19:00 -
[332]
Edited by: insanebe on 21/04/2006 03:22:32
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/04/2006 03:10:39 I would suggest ISSN that you gave the CVA an entirely valid casus belli in building in territory claimed by CVA for Amarr.
War is about more than fireing the first shot, and as the invaders into Amarrian claimed territory it is the ISS who are the agressors in this situation, and the CVA declaration qualifies as a just and defensive war of longstanding claims.
The proverbial ball is in the ISS court here, you must initiate peace for peace to exist as it is you who have chosen to transgress by the placing of heavily armed starbases in space obviously claimed by the CVA. Should you offer this removal now before too much blood is spilt, then I would be truely disappointed in the CVA should they not be open to an agreement such as the one proposed by Omber.
If you wish to pretend to be the neutral corporation you claim to be, ISS, then I suggest that you act like it.
I would hope that all Imperial supporters are watching the development of this situation intently, as the CVA is a true supporter of the Amarrian people and the Empire of God.
personally i think CVA's claim is valid and we made a mistake but CVA's actions of out right hostility in destroying a passing civillian who was unaware of the circumstances at the time as were most of us, was out of order
as far as i know compensation is being demanded and we will accept nothing less knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Sushi Tanaka
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Posted - 2006.04.21 03:25:00 -
[333]
Originally by: insanebe as far as i know compensation is being demanded and we will accept nothing less
Don't get too carried away with compensation demands, ISS would owe CVA a Demios in that case. |
insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 03:54:00 -
[334]
what we lost was more expensive than a pesky BS knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 04:18:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Sushi Tanaka
Don't get too carried away with compensation demands, ISS would owe CVA a Demios in that case.
Heh...I could hardly demand compensation for a dumbass mistake.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.21 04:28:00 -
[336]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/04/2006 04:29:21 I would suggest that the agressor, which is undoubtedly ISS in this case, demanding compensation is an act that would not suggest that ISS has any desire for peace.
ISS agressed, CVA issued a simple ultimatum.
ISS chose to give insulting 'offers' that effectively demanded the CVA surrender to them and refused to talk terms of removing the starbases from Amarrian claimed space.
CVA accordingly eleminated the grace period they had granted ISS before opening fire.
I would suggest that if this war is to be halted that both parties should take the losses to date and work for a white peace. Again I would suggest that Omber's suggestions are quite decent
Demanding compensation, when it is, as you admit, ISS who are the agressors here, is tantamount to throwing CVA yet another gauntlet. Which, you must admit, is not the action of a party wishing to see a peaceful resolution.
God is with us. PIE Website |
xHjfx
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Posted - 2006.04.21 04:28:00 -
[337]
Originally by: insanebe Edited by: insanebe on 21/04/2006 03:22:32
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/04/2006 03:10:39 I would suggest ISSN that you gave the CVA an entirely valid casus belli in building in territory claimed by CVA for Amarr.
War is about more than fireing the first shot, and as the invaders into Amarrian claimed territory it is the ISS who are the agressors in this situation, and the CVA declaration qualifies as a just and defensive war of longstanding claims.
The proverbial ball is in the ISS court here, you must initiate peace for peace to exist as it is you who have chosen to transgress by the placing of heavily armed starbases in space obviously claimed by the CVA. Should you offer this removal now before too much blood is spilt, then I would be truely disappointed in the CVA should they not be open to an agreement such as the one proposed by Omber.
If you wish to pretend to be the neutral corporation you claim to be, ISS, then I suggest that you act like it.
I would hope that all Imperial supporters are watching the development of this situation intently, as the CVA is a true supporter of the Amarrian people and the Empire of God.
personally i think CVA's claim is valid and we made a mistake but CVA's actions of out right hostility in destroying a passing civillian who was unaware of the circumstances at the time as were most of us, was out of order
as far as i know compensation is being demanded and we will accept nothing less
Why should you recieve compensation?
Civilian or not he was ISS...
The same ISS that trespassed and refused to move from CVA space, The same ISS that sent an aggression force of frigates into CVA space, the same ISS that claims its neutral yet doesnt do anything to backup that claim.
CVA should be demanding compensation for the war dec costs, for the time they took to blow that hauler up...
Get where this is going? The war is down to your own mistake - You (ISS) failed to interpret the word TO and then refused to do anything when complaints were launched and now you come to the forums complaining because gunshots are fired at you after your own people claim that CVA have no claim on their space?
Im not CVA and I dont claim to speak for them but you are in the wrong, you fail to realise this and crying when the shots are firing shouldnt be directed to them.
Direct them to your own leadership - they should compensate because they are the cause.
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.21 04:49:00 -
[338]
As even the ISSN representative admits it was probably a mistake I would suggest respectfully that the prudent course of action would be to remove the disputed POS stations immediately.
I have no doubt that ISS originally acted with honor. I am one to believe this was an honest mistake. As an ISS shareholder I guess I'm also disturbed that rather then hold to the charter which states the ISS will respect the neutrality and claims of the "host" alliance they instead forced a confrontation. As someone who invests in nearly a dozen Eve entities and funnels the money to SPCS charities it would pain me to see something as honest as this mistake lead to more bloodshed and destruction.
The destruction of a passing ship was unfortunate but hardly unforseeable. The CVA had issued an ultimatum, the ISS had ignored it and refused to honor an agreement made in February. The CVA then declared war as its only option. War was forced on them and they responded. Rather then be intimidated or forced to capitulate and give up territory ISS had agreed to months ago they stood their ground.
Demanding compensation is inappropriate given the facts in the case. The ship destroyed was a casualty of war. Hauler or Battleship it did not matter as the CVA had made clear what would happen to ISS ships caught in its territory. The fact this pilot "didnt know" about the conflict indicates a lack of internal communication amongst the ISS membership and does not reflect badly on those who defended their homes in Providence.
I also read the reply by Omber Zombie and was very impressed. He speaks with clarity and substance and recommends resolution of this unfortunate chain of events. I would hope the CVA would agree to a ceasefire and would probably even help move the POS stations from their territory.
Perhaps with Gods help something can be learned from this situation. Perhaps with the removal of the POS stations ISS can turn the page on the mistrust brought here and reveal themselves to be truly wise and honest. Likewise the CVA could with the POS removal stand down from war alert and once again work to secure Providence from those who would destroy the Empire and free trade.
I believe in what ISS has done in the past and I commend their efforts to tame the vast lawlessness that is 0.0 space. As a shareholder in ISS I support them in their efforts and have cheered their many successes. But this time an unfortunate mistake was made. Time to fix it and move on. Move beyond the boundry agreed upon by both CVA and ISS in February and build a true friendship with the current residents of Providence.
The tension and anger here today need not be here tomorrow. Tomorrow a new day could dawn and a true friendship based on mutual respect could emerge. Some of the greatest alliances and friendships in the universe are forged by initial turmoil. This could be one of those great instances where brought to the brink of war both sides stand proudly at the end and look out over all they have accomplished.
I pray to God that peace is preserved.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.04.21 04:53:00 -
[339]
Originally by: xHjfx
Originally by: insanebe Edited by: insanebe on 21/04/2006 03:22:32
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/04/2006 03:10:39 I would suggest ISSN that you gave the CVA an entirely valid casus belli in building in territory claimed by CVA for Amarr.
War is about more than fireing the first shot, and as the invaders into Amarrian claimed territory it is the ISS who are the agressors in this situation, and the CVA declaration qualifies as a just and defensive war of longstanding claims.
The proverbial ball is in the ISS court here, you must initiate peace for peace to exist as it is you who have chosen to transgress by the placing of heavily armed starbases in space obviously claimed by the CVA. Should you offer this removal now before too much blood is spilt, then I would be truely disappointed in the CVA should they not be open to an agreement such as the one proposed by Omber.
If you wish to pretend to be the neutral corporation you claim to be, ISS, then I suggest that you act like it.
I would hope that all Imperial supporters are watching the development of this situation intently, as the CVA is a true supporter of the Amarrian people and the Empire of God.
personally i think CVA's claim is valid and we made a mistake but CVA's actions of out right hostility in destroying a passing civillian who was unaware of the circumstances at the time as were most of us, was out of order
as far as i know compensation is being demanded and we will accept nothing less
Why should you recieve compensation?
Civilian or not he was ISS...
The same ISS that trespassed and refused to move from CVA space, The same ISS that sent an aggression force of frigates into CVA space, the same ISS that claims its neutral yet doesnt do anything to backup that claim.
CVA should be demanding compensation for the war dec costs, for the time they took to blow that hauler up...
Get where this is going? The war is down to your own mistake - You (ISS) failed to interpret the word TO and then refused to do anything when complaints were launched and now you come to the forums complaining because gunshots are fired at you after your own people claim that CVA have no claim on their space?
Im not CVA and I dont claim to speak for them but you are in the wrong, you fail to realise this and crying when the shots are firing shouldnt be directed to them.
Direct them to your own leadership - they should compensate because they are the cause.
You can continue to say that all you want. If ISS did the wrong thing ok. That happens. The moment you stop talking and start picking up guns is the moment where you become warmongerers. All this talk about who did what and everything still doesnt put aside the fact that CVA took the first step on the active war path. Does the teachings of God tell you to stop talking and select violence. There are always other options other than war. You ask how can i say this. Well war and death has been part of my life since i was very young. Its all ive known.
Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Princess Morenta
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Posted - 2006.04.21 04:59:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Princess Morenta on 21/04/2006 05:03:23
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
Originally by: xHjfx
Originally by: insanebe Edited by: insanebe on 21/04/2006 03:22:32
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/04/2006 03:10:39 I would suggest ISSN that you gave the CVA an entirely valid casus belli in building in territory claimed by CVA for Amarr.
War is about more than fireing the first shot, and as the invaders into Amarrian claimed territory it is the ISS who are the agressors in this situation, and the CVA declaration qualifies as a just and defensive war of longstanding claims.
The proverbial ball is in the ISS court here, you must initiate peace for peace to exist as it is you who have chosen to transgress by the placing of heavily armed starbases in space obviously claimed by the CVA. Should you offer this removal now before too much blood is spilt, then I would be truely disappointed in the CVA should they not be open to an agreement such as the one proposed by Omber.
If you wish to pretend to be the neutral corporation you claim to be, ISS, then I suggest that you act like it.
I would hope that all Imperial supporters are watching the development of this situation intently, as the CVA is a true supporter of the Amarrian people and the Empire of God.
personally i think CVA's claim is valid and we made a mistake but CVA's actions of out right hostility in destroying a passing civillian who was unaware of the circumstances at the time as were most of us, was out of order
as far as i know compensation is being demanded and we will accept nothing less
Why should you recieve compensation?
Civilian or not he was ISS...
The same ISS that trespassed and refused to move from CVA space, The same ISS that sent an aggression force of frigates into CVA space, the same ISS that claims its neutral yet doesnt do anything to backup that claim.
CVA should be demanding compensation for the war dec costs, for the time they took to blow that hauler up...
Get where this is going? The war is down to your own mistake - You (ISS) failed to interpret the word TO and then refused to do anything when complaints were launched and now you come to the forums complaining because gunshots are fired at you after your own people claim that CVA have no claim on their space?
Im not CVA and I dont claim to speak for them but you are in the wrong, you fail to realise this and crying when the shots are firing shouldnt be directed to them.
Direct them to your own leadership - they should compensate because they are the cause.
You can continue to say that all you want. If ISS did the wrong thing ok. That happens. The moment you stop talking and start picking up guns is the moment where you become warmongerers. All this talk about who did what and everything still doesnt put aside the fact that CVA took the first step on the active war path. Does the teachings of God tell you to stop talking and select violence. There are always other options other than war. You ask how can i say this. Well war and death has been part of my life since i was very young. Its all ive known.
Do you not understand? ISS sent a task force INTO CVA SPACE.
If that wasnt a clear act of aggression I dont know what was - CVA were forced into the war position and ISS arent doing themselves any favours by continuing this act... as stated before, they were and are in the wrong and should back down.
CVA were forced into action as it can be clearly see over this 12 or so pages. They tried to resolve the dispute amicably when ISS declared they wouldnt budge - See counts post... This indicates ISS was warmongering and NOT CVA considering CVA threatened war only to protect its vested interest in that space, which ISS had broke their agreement on.
Considering its part of the ISS Charter, they should back down but as it stands - they are in no way showing themselves neutral.. More imperialistic.. More like true colours
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xHjfx
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:02:00 -
[341]
I refuse to respond to any MC statement as quite blatently as shown above by others and posted previously, they are meddling in affairs and stirring the issue.
They are paid for by the ISS and will argue the ISS point until the bank roll stops - biased in their view.
I will continue to read this thread and hope that both the ISS and CVA can resolve their problems... whether this is done by violence or diplomacy is upto ISS as most have pointed out.
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:04:00 -
[342]
The course to war was set with the word NO. When asked to remove the POS stations that single word led to this. It wasnt the mistake itself I agree with you. It was the refusal to rectify the situation. That single word was the first "shot" if you will. What else is there?
Negotiation? An agreement recognized by all was broken. A horrible mistake was made.
Still there is hope now. Now it seems to be understood a mistake was made. Now is the time to remove the POS stations and fix a terrible chain of events.
I'm sure everyone will pray for peace and resolution. I look forward to a new day tomorrow and the hope that this conflict will end and the mistrust forged here will be broken in the spirit of peace.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:04:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Agent Kenshin The moment you stop talking and start picking up guns is the moment where you become warmongerers.
Incorrect.
The moment you let a mistake become an act of invasion (ISS refusing twice now in this very discussion to move their stations from what was agreed as CVA space) is the moment you become a warmonger.
Somehow that point continues to be lost on a lot of people...
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:13:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
You can continue to say that all you want. If ISS did the wrong thing ok. That happens. The moment you stop talking and start picking up guns is the moment where you become warmongerers. All this talk about who did what and everything still doesnt put aside the fact that CVA took the first step on the active war path. Does the teachings of God tell you to stop talking and select violence. There are always other options other than war. You ask how can i say this. Well war and death has been part of my life since i was very young. Its all ive known.
You are wrong here. What decides who is the agressor in the war is not so simple as who fires the first shot, the agressor is the side that puts the matter into contention and breaches the previous agreements that had been made.
The agreement was that the system was CVA, moving into the system without speaking to the CVA and setting up heavily armed battlestations ws an act of war that gave the CVA an entirely valid casus belli (or 'reason for war' if you dont already know the term)
The CVA could have declared war on the ISS with no warning whatsoever and still been the party fighting a just defensive war, simply because it was the ISS that breached the diplomatic agreement that already existed.
In essence the ISS movement was an act of war that gave the CVA only two options, back down and surrender territory they had the prior claim for to agressing non-Amarrian forces or demand that the ISS retract their agressive actions.
The CVA are Amarrians, not pushovers. They attempted, justly, to diplomatically resolve the issue. The ISS pushed the issue instead of holding to their charter, and here we are.
War is not so simple as 'who fired the first shot'. The question of who is the 'warmongering' party goes not to who fired first, but rather to who chose to break the agreements that allow for peaceful interaction between humans in lawless space and promote peace in the fringe.
The ISS is undoubtedly the agressing party in this, I have yet to see any evidence suggesting otherwise.
God is with us. PIE Website |
Kristoffer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:31:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Kristoffer on 21/04/2006 05:32:16 We've tried to get this point across many times. ISS are imperialists true and true, you interfere with their plans and they will attempt to remove you.
CVA is the second instance of this ISS warmongering, CC being the first.
When will people wake up?
CVA, I on behalf my corporation wish you the best, your not the only ones fighting this menace. Good luck.
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DogTyred
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:39:00 -
[346]
It does seem that once again the expansionist policies of the ISS have led them into conflict. It kinda makes it hard to shout " we are nuetral to everyone" when you have your Tanks sitting in someones back yard.
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Elissianus
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:09:00 -
[347]
Tbh, much as it's interesting to base this topic largely around semantics (basically what the word 'TO' means and what the definition of 'AGGRESSOR' is), ISS could resolve the situation by removing the POS's and I'm fairly confident a ceasefire could then be reached. As a resident of the area it is far better to have both sides concentrating on removing pirate threats than destroying each other's forces.
Come on ISS, remove the POS's and then you can discuss which areas are 'claimed' and which are not.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:11:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Golan Trevize is the finest example of what Amarr should be I have ever encountered, anyone who would question his loyalty to the Empire is an ignorant fool.
I wonder how to take that comment, coming as it does from someone who disobeyed an imperial edict to give the Grandmaster of Tetrimon safe passage...
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:20:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 21/04/2006 06:21:40
Originally by: Elissianus ISS could resolve the situation by removing the POS's and I'm fairly confident a ceasefire could then be reached.
I believe so as well. I would even go farther to suggest that if the ISS offered peace terms that involved a cease fire to give them safety in removeing those stations, that the CVA might even be willing to agree, though I most definitely cannot speak for the CVA in this matter.
As said earlier, the responsibility for breaching peace is in the ISS court and has been there since the stations went up, that the ISS and ISS supporters are trying to pin blame on the CVA is why so much of the topic is filled with deadly serious 'semantics'.
ISS: speak to the CVA of peace and honoring your previous agreements and end this before more blood is shed and your reputation of neutrality is utterly ruined. Any other path is folly.
God is with us. PIE Website |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:12:00 -
[350]
The CVA have been looking for war, its easy, they want the whole of Providence "Soon" but doesn't have the manpower to take it.....
This matter could have been resolved behind close doors, and then again when the ISSN was ordered to stay at home. Instead the CVA ran to the boards shouting "WAR" and then followed through by placing a War Dec.
This is not rational behaviour, its simply looking for a fight and trying to justify why.
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Goodtime Girl
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:13:00 -
[351]
No matter who was right or wrong ....
The ISSN was ordered to stay at home and the CVA declared war ...
This was wrong, non-diplomatic and simply looking for a fight.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:15:00 -
[352]
The CVA where out of order declaring War, the rest is politics ...
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:22:00 -
[353]
Gaven Lok'ri, Archbishop, I recognize the truth in your words.
It would seem to me that the chance to act is clearly the responsibility of the ISS at this point. If the validity of permanent treaties is what you worry about, you should contact the gentlemen I have mentioned above, who represent what I would call the soul of the CVA, for the focus they gave.
Once more, for the third time, I urge the ISS to abandon this system. The CVA are powerful enemies, and fierce allies. This close to Amarr space, you couldn't ask for better friends.
You ISS (and MC!) members who are recognizing the futility and pointlessness of this war should be speaking out to your leaders and diplomats to let your voices be heard! The ISS stands to gain a lot of honor if you act correctly. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Mynas Atoch
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:24:00 -
[354]
Helping trade to flow and facilitating small corps operations in 0.0 feels like a good reason to get in my ship. I wasn't able to feel the same motivation for some random bunch of imperialists declaring that a constellation or system belonged to them despite having no use for it other than to say "this is ours!" Whatever.
So when Amarran imperialists say .. this is where we are ... and that next constellation that we have no one in ... and the system beyond it ... it just sounds like hot air. Is that a legitimate claim? Not in my eyes ... is it in yours? What do you define as a legitimate claim on territory? To me its where you live and where you build and what you exploit, and the systems thus enclosed.
When ISS corps build some POS's in a system would we oppose a non-hostile party builing in the systems either side of it .. or even at the unused moons in that system? I very much doubt it. We'd say, GREAT! Customers. Are there enough to put up a station nearby? Lets all get rich! That's why the claims that we are trying to provoke a war just don't make sense. Its not as if these moons will be mined to husks and be useless because we left them unexploited.
If there were CVA stations and CVA POS's and CVA miners and CVA patrols, then of course I would acknowledge that maybe we should check carefully whether they are going to shoot us if we exploit an unused system. If the constellations and systems claimed had been listed and named .. then we wouldn't even have had to check carefully ... but when the claim amounts to ... we will expand in the direction of, what to me on my starmap, is just a junction, then I can understand why someone thought the junction itself, totally unused, was a reasonable place to expoit some mineral resources. An unused system, beyond an entire unused constellation beyond the space CVA actually use. Is this CVA space?
I see loads of claims that its CVA space ... I looked ... I don't see any labels ... I don't see any sovereignty ... I doubt there were even any plans to make money from it ... just a demand that no one else can either. But I'm sure CVA would be happy to enhance their claim by giving us a hint at those plans. To me CVA space is two constellations that-a-way, where their miners and POSs are.
Like most ISSN members I've talked to, I really don't care one way or another whether these POS stay or go, or we fight CVA or not. If its red, we shoot it, if its grey we let it pass, if its blue we give them a wave and any intel on hostiles we have. I'll let those with the thankless task of making sense and profit from all this, work out what colours apply. We have plenty of targets to keep us busy without them, and from what percolates down to me, its obvious we are trying to reduce them, not increase them.
Myn
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:31:00 -
[355]
Quote: Once more, for the third time, I urge the ISS to abandon this system. The CVA are powerful enemies, and fierce allies. This close to Amarr space, you couldn't ask for better friends.
Again, all the ISS hear is ... we might want the whole off providence and the CVA have guns ......
I suggest the CVA remove the War Dec and then the ISS can talk but until then the CVA is simply looking for a fight.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:32:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Chain Gang ...
Quit hiding behind your pseudonym, coward. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:13:00 -
[357]
Quote: Quit hiding behind your pseudonym, coward.
Maybe the truth hurts ... but to call foul and then to War DEc is simply the wrong thing to do ....
If the CVA want a peacefull end to this matter then the right thing to do would be to remove the war ..... the ISSN tried to compromise by asking all pilots to stay away from all CVA space. maybe its time for the CVA to show its peacefull intent.
Anything else is hiding behind words .... the CVA either want a peacefull outcome or not ... the 20 pages of dribble can be cut down to a simply "Yes" or "No".
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munkehdotnet
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:15:00 -
[358]
Edited by: munkehdotnet on 21/04/2006 08:17:50 -
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:18:00 -
[359]
Who's right or wrong doesn't really matter ....
To ask the ISS to do anything with a gun to their head is wrong .. I'm sure if you remove the war declaration then a peacefull outcome will be close ...
BTW the ISS Navy is bigger than you entire alliance ... you sure you want to go down this route.
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kincajou
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:27:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Zooish
To ask the ISS to do anything with a gun to their head is wrong .. I'm sure if you remove the war declaration then a peacefull outcome will be close ...
Are you official representative of the ISS?
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:29:00 -
[361]
Quote: Are you official representative of the ISS?
I'm in the ....... know ...
But to ask for anything at the end of a war dec is going to get the CVA nothing.
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Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:31:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Zooish
Quote: Are you official representative of the ISS?
I'm in the ....... know ...
But to ask for anything at the end of a war dec is going to get the CVA nothing.
Asking before a war dec got us nothing aswell, the war dec was a last resort
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Grim Savage
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:35:00 -
[363]
This reminds me of, 'the indy insident' that ultimatly caused the fall of Xetic, and the un-armed BS breaching the Xetic defences in Feyth during the first ambush Stain-residents threw at Xetic.
Hidden agression (Deployment of potentially very damageing and dangerous array of shield towers) fortifieing theire position very close to CVA's area of intrest.
When CVA then ask them to remove them, they respond by building more, claiming that this is OK due to a deal made before the great EVE-Quake.
When CVA then do what they clarely have to do, defend themselfs, then ISS sit there with an inocent look claiming to be the victims of open agression.
Whatever someone said in february, noone, can use 2 months later, after ALL the balances of EVE have shifted.
ISS are an agressive alliance, and they need to be put in place when they come banging theire wallets and mercs against the peacefull godloveing Amarr people.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:40:00 -
[364]
Quote: Whatever someone said in february, noone, can use 2 months later, after ALL the balances of EVE have shifted.
Complete rubbish ...
Like statements . we "may" want the whole of providence.
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Goodtime Girl
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:42:00 -
[365]
No ducking out CVA .... you either want a peacefull outcome or not ... but by declaring war personally if I was the ISS I would close all diplomatic channels until you removed it.
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:51:00 -
[366]
Please can ISSN members refrain from further postings in this thread.
We'll leave the talking to the diplomats, I understand negotiations are still taking place and I hope for a peaceful resolve ASAP.
------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting.
See this thread for further details.
www.eve-iss.com |
Qolde
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:56:00 -
[367]
You guys!! You guys!!! Look!!! I found the most simple explanation AND solution to the entire problem!!!!
Facts ISS and CVA are not enemies.
CVA claims this system is theirs through some imaginary abstract border system.
ISS does not contest these imaginary borders, however misunderstood these borders and placed only 7 POSes in a system with over 15 moons.
Solution: Stop fighting. Let the POSes stay, because ISS is friendly. The next 8 Large POSes that CVA puts up will be in this system, to OFFICIALLY claim their space. ISS and CVA live happily ever after.
Whether either of you like it or not, you are going to be neighbors for a very long time, if outside forces do not get involved, so you might as well get along now so that you can have 1 extra ally if either of you get into some other war trouble.
On one side you have: ISS BoB (they gave them an outpost, can't be a random act of kindness, I don't think BoB trained that skill) Mercenary Coalition (lives next door to BoB and coincidentally currently employed by ISS) Ushra'Khan (out of default because who hates CVA more than UK?) Very formidable force
Then on the other side: CVA Huzzah and according to the diplomacy table RA and SA will side here.
If you resolve this with a shared system, you will both reap the benefits of increased trade, and vastly increased security. If not? Well... my money is on the ISS/BoB/MC/UK machine.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:03:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Qolde
On one side you have: ISS BoB (they gave them an outpost, can't be a random act of kindness, I don't think BoB trained that skill) Mercenary Coalition (lives next door to BoB and coincidentally currently employed by ISS) Ushra'Khan (out of default because who hates CVA more than UK?) Very formidable force
Then on the other side: CVA Huzzah and according to the diplomacy table RA and SA will side here.
Huzzah would likely remain neutral, they are good friends with ISS and CVA, I doubt they would want to get involved in such a petty dispute.
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Grim Savage
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:26:00 -
[369]
BOB aint on ISS's side. BOB is on BOB's side.
(in alphabetical order) Also, ASCN, AXE, CC, Chimrea, CI, LV, RA, RAT... and teire grandmothers and alts, might very well have 'issues' with ISS building a terrorist training camp in Providence.
Preemptive strikes against the axis-of-evil (ISS and MC) whould be in order. An amarr factory station for rappid production of capital ships are not something people want in theire backyards.
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Phiraga
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:32:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Grim Savage BOB aint on ISS's side. BOB is on BOB's side.
The day BoB takes out a nice chunk of ISS' infrastructure is the day I will believe that. Until then, what I believe is what someone said, not long after I thought it. The thought was "ISS may have a lot of BoB alts in it". Don't take offense to it. It was just a thought, that I can't prove. But one guy that flew with BoB said it was true.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:34:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Grim Savage BOB aint on ISS's side. BOB is on BOB's side.
(in alphabetical order) Also, ASCN, AXE, CC, Chimrea, CI, LV, RA, RAT... and teire grandmothers and alts, might very well have 'issues' with ISS building a terrorist training camp in Providence.
Preemptive strikes against the axis-of-evil (ISS and MC) whould be in order. An amarr factory station for rappid production of capital ships are not something people want in theire backyards.
1) You cannot build capital ships in a factory outpost 2) Of the organisations you mention, all but two have + standings to ISS
Think that just about makes enough of a mockery of your post.
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Qolde
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:37:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Angry Dan Edited by: Angry Dan on 20/04/2006 00:52:43 The Huzzah Federation takes a keen intrest in this matter. ISS have decided that they wish to deploy a starbase near our border. Huzzah Federation favours any developement that would bring properity to Providence. We favour open borders and free trade, something that CVA and ISS have also been keen to promote. We ahve historically assisted CVA in maintaining security in the R3-K7K system and the surrounding area, and we have fought a fair number of wars to establish the current relative peace in the area. The status quo in the area is something we are keen to maintain.
However, we do not like seeing our allies fight. Ideally, we would prefer that this issue was resolved peacefully. If mediation is required, I am willing to off my services as a neutral mediator. With negotiation a mutually beneficial solution could be found, I am sure of it. And as Huzzah Federation is neutral in this affair, and we plan to maintain our neutrality, I believe I can negotiate a settlement that we can all use.
However, we take a very dim view of our space being used to assault our oldest ally. I fail to see why ISS is pursuing this path, as war with the CVA achieves nothing for them.
Our official position is that Huzzah Federation will stay neutral to the ISS and CVA, and will not fight on either side. However, should the fighting spill over our borders, or should our lawful trade be harrassed, we will reconsider our neutral position.
Yeah, Huzzah would like to remain neutral, just as much as ISS would. But we all know whats possible at this point. Could be a World War, but in an Eve way.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:53:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Qolde
Yeah, Huzzah would like to remain neutral, just as much as ISS would. But we all know whats possible at this point. Could be a World War, but in an Eve way.
Oh, don't be so melodramatic.
I see nothing of the sort. You know what I see? Two old friends argueing about a POS, and the rest of EVE not giving a flying f***
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:55:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Phiraga
The day BoB takes out a nice chunk of ISS' infrastructure is the day I will believe that. Until then, what I believe is what someone said, not long after I thought it. The thought was "ISS may have a lot of BoB alts in it". Don't take offense to it. It was just a thought, that I can't prove. But one guy that flew with BoB said it was true.
You totally miss the point.
ISS DO NOT OWN THEIR OUTPOSTS. The shareholders do.
The shareholders are spread throughout all Alliances in EVE, which is why so few people have any reason or motivation to attack an ISS outpost.
Thats why BoB etc have no interest in attacking ISS outposts - they are not stragetically important, and many of their members have a nice income in the form of share dividends.
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Audrea
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:16:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Phiraga
The day BoB takes out a nice chunk of ISS' infrastructure is the day I will believe that. Until then, what I believe is what someone said, not long after I thought it. The thought was "ISS may have a lot of BoB alts in it". Don't take offense to it. It was just a thought, that I can't prove. But one guy that flew with BoB said it was true.
You totally miss the point.
ISS DO NOT OWN THEIR OUTPOSTS. The shareholders do.
The shareholders are spread throughout all Alliances in EVE, which is why so few people have any reason or motivation to attack an ISS outpost.
Thats why BoB etc have no interest in attacking ISS outposts - they are not stragetically important, and many of their members have a nice income in the form of share dividends.
How u know? many of their members like FIX, and yet their destroyed 30+ bil egg.
The pilots in BoB live for pvp, not to make more money I would think. even if few owe some shares, thinking that would stop the rest of them is wrong.
Thats said, I dont think they will attack the ISS with capital ships - they stated more than once they appreciate what ISS is trying to accomplish (though duno if they still believe their neutrality stuff, or ISS are in BoB's pockets, or vice versa lol).
There, I think I just contributed 0 to this discussion but I still like to post lol... ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise. |
Grim Savage
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:17:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Krackerjack
Originally by: Grim Savage BOB aint on ISS's side. BOB is on BOB's side.
(in alphabetical order) Also, ASCN, AXE, CC, Chimrea, CI, LV, RA, RAT... and teire grandmothers and alts, might very well have 'issues' with ISS building a terrorist training camp in Providence.
Preemptive strikes against the axis-of-evil (ISS and MC) whould be in order. An amarr factory station for rappid production of capital ships are not something people want in theire backyards.
1) You cannot build capital ships in a factory outpost 2) Of the organisations you mention, all but two have + standings to ISS
Think that just about makes enough of a mockery of your post.
You can build Dreads and carriers. You can not build motherships and titans..
So, my *****-useing friend.. you are wrong.
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Grim Savage
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:23:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Mr Trouble ISS DO NOT OWN THEIR OUTPOSTS. The shareholders do.
The shareholders are spread throughout all Alliances in EVE, which is why so few people have any reason or motivation to attack an ISS outpost.
That is not entierly true. I know that many people make a lot of isk's of theire shares. If those people are my enemies, then I will stand to gain more by destroying the income from theire shares, than to destroy a platinium-insured BS.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:38:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Grim Savage
You can build Dreads and carriers. You can not build motherships and titans..
So, my *****-useing friend.. you are wrong.
Which applies to ALL outposts, I think you'll find.
And ANYONE can stroll on in with a BPC and kick things off.
Face facts - no-one wants the ISS outposts apart from the ISS, and the shareholders are happy with the dividends.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:41:00 -
[379]
Quote: Which applies to ALL outposts, I think you'll find.
And ANYONE can stroll on in with a BPC and kick things off.
But there is no point ..... why move equipment 20 jumps through 0.0 to an Outpost when you can build Carriers and Dreads in any 0.4 system next door to empire.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:06:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Qolde
CVA claims this system is theirs through some imaginary abstract border system.
So you think ISS should build POS just anywhere they like because almost *all* borders in 0.0 are quite imaginary...
Now recruiting!
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:15:00 -
[381]
Quote: So you think ISS should build POS just anywhere they like because almost *all* borders in 0.0 are quite imaginary...
So everyones sits in empire because I may want claim the entire provdence region..
Thats why Eve has a territory map sticky .... so people can publish there claimed space and not act like children and shout "I want everything" !!
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:25:00 -
[382]
What's your beef with the CVA? Have a friend in the ISS? What's different with all the other alliances claiming changing regions of space they don't fortify? That map can and will never be 100% accurate. Even the author says he has to guess for some parts.
Now recruiting!
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:40:00 -
[383]
This thread is now irrelevant.
Please see the official statement from Marginis Imports in this forum.
ISS - we don't give you permission to remain in Providence. Same with CVA. Out you go.
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Acron Ishtal
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:09:00 -
[384]
O Thief is now irrelevant, please disregard his posts in this thread.
Thank you. --------------------------------------------- "True honor is found only in service to the Emperor. Only His wisdom can guide us to the path of the righteous." |
Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:14:00 -
[385]
Quote: What's your beef with the CVA? Have a friend in the ISS? What's different with all the other alliances claiming changing regions of space they don't fortify? That map can and will never be 100% accurate. Even the author says he has to guess for some parts.
OH, so its the ISS's fault for not "guessing" correctly ..... please.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:28:00 -
[386]
Edited by: Garreck on 21/04/2006 13:27:54
Originally by: Chain Gang
OH, so its the ISS's fault for not "guessing" correctly ..... please.
No, it's ISS's fault for breaking an agreement made in good faith. Even giving them room for a misinterpretation of the agreement, it's ISS's fault for not respecting the claim after the misunderstanding was brought to their attention.
But we've been over this a dozen times by now...
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:37:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Acron Ishtal O Thief is now irrelevant, please disregard his posts in this thread.
Thank you.
What are you talking about?
I am claiming Providence on behald of Marginis Imports. This is a valid claim and Providence will shortly be marked on the alliance map as 'contested'.
We may not have any infrastructure, assets, or presence in most of Providence, but we *might* in the future, and want to secure the whole region for our projected growth. Which may or may not happen.
Are you trying to claim for a second that our claim on an area we have no operations, assets, or interest in is not valid? And if this is the case, how do you justify your own expanded territorial claims?
See you on the battlefield. Providence is ours!
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:39:00 -
[388]
Quote: Even giving them room for a misinterpretation of the agreement
Right, so its their fault for not reading between the lines and making mistakes any normal person would make given your incorrect guidelines during the agreement.
I may claim everything ....... Soon
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Goodtime Girl
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:41:00 -
[389]
Edited by: Goodtime Girl on 21/04/2006 13:42:31
CVA Territory Statement ...
"I want that one", "and that one", "oh yeah, and that one"
Did someone called "Andy" from the CVA do the official policy
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kincajou niten
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:46:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Goodtime Girl Edited by: Goodtime Girl on 21/04/2006 13:42:31
CVA Territory Statement ...
"I want that one", "and that one", "oh yeah, and that one"
Read up from the start and you will understand that you are completely wrong.
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Scor Angel
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:48:00 -
[391]
For all that you hold dear people, please let this stop.
Are ISS in the worng? - in some respects yes.
Are CVA in the wrong? - in the same way yes.
If we let them do it, will this issue be concluded in a fasion suitable for all involved? - YES.
please just let them do it.
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kincajou niten
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:52:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Quote: Even giving them room for a misinterpretation of the agreement
Right, so its their fault for not reading between the lines and making mistakes any normal person would make given your incorrect guidelines during the agreement.
In my book, if I'm going to place POS near friendly territory and I'm not sure on the borders, I will ask the friendly alliance.
No need to read between lines, communication is your friend.
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Mattduk
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:59:00 -
[393]
I read all of that and I am still confused.
I am looking at the map in game. How is 3KB CVA space?
Now before I start, or rather continue, I wish to state neutrality in this dispute. At this time I take neither side.
Just looking at the map and giving an outsider's point of view. CVA are a good few systems away from 3KB, and do not have sovereignty on any of the systems between 3KB and Y6AB. It's a good 6 jumps away from CVA space, as the in game map shows it.
Now.. I don't know the inner workings of either alliance. And I wish them both the best of luck, but if CVA haven't explicitely told the rest of EVE (not just ISS) that they lay claim to 3KB, and I can totally see how one might put a pos there, innocently, and not realise the problems it may cause.
That said, good luck to you both, and I hope you resolve the issue with minimal bloodshed. Nobody wants that, I am sure.
Fight with honor, and pray the diplomats come to an amicable agreement quickly
Best regards Mattduk
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:59:00 -
[394]
Originally by: kincajou niten
In my book, if I'm going to place POS near friendly territory and I'm not sure on the borders, I will ask the friendly alliance.
No need to read between lines, communication is your friend.
I feel your pain. Marginis Imports is outraged that the ISS have placed POS in a previously unclaimed system we have now decided to claim.
This behaviour shall NOT be tolerated.
Equally, we are displeased that CVA continue to operate an outpost in a system we have decided to claim. This has been 'noted' by our leadership.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:59:00 -
[395]
Quote: In my book, if I'm going to place POS near friendly territory and I'm not sure on the borders, I will ask the friendly alliance.
No need to read between lines, communication is your friend.
CVA policy = War Dec
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Cell Satimo
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:10:00 -
[396]
This whole thread is a classic.
Has anyone in the Entire 110k eve community ever seen an Alliance leader other than CVA's claim to own something that hadn't been recogonised by CONCORD or the Map Maker? And people take it seriously!
It must be a first!
Maybe we should give the whole incident a memorable title .. like, erm .. an Acryonm like 'GNW', perhaps .. CVA Claimed Vacant Area? Claims Vaguely Alleged?
CVAISS Claimed Vacant Area In non-Soverign Space! Couldn't Validate Amarrians Incredulous Speculative Sovereignty?
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kincajou niten
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:12:00 -
[397]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Quote: In my book, if I'm going to place POS near friendly territory and I'm not sure on the borders, I will ask the friendly alliance.
No need to read between lines, communication is your friend.
CVA policy = War Dec
Please read up from the start and you will understand that you are completely wrong.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:15:00 -
[398]
Originally by: kincajou niten
CVA policy = War Dec
Please read up from the start and you will understand that you are completely wrong.
Really? But didnt CVA wardec ISS while they were still negotiating behind the scenes.
I understood thats what annoyed ISS so much.
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kincajou niten
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:18:00 -
[399]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: kincajou niten
CVA policy = War Dec
Please read up from the start and you will understand that you are completely wrong.
Really? But didnt CVA wardec ISS while they were still negotiating behind the scenes.
I understood thats what annoyed ISS so much.
Are you ISS official representative? :-)
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:19:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Really? But didnt CVA wardec ISS while they were still negotiating behind the scenes.
No, no, no, no, NO.
This has been gone over many times!
Not a shot was fired until an official "no, the stations stay" was given by ISS on this very thread! That is the ROOT of this conflict! This is not some random warmongering taking place here. An agreement was made in good faith. That agreement was broken. Private diplomatic means were ignored. Public diplomatic means failed. We chose war. What else are we to do?
Ah, that's right...we're supposed to look at a larger, richer alliance with mercs on retainer and roll over and play dead.
Not gonna happen.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:28:00 -
[401]
Edited by: Chain Gang on 21/04/2006 14:28:46
Quote: No, no, no, no, NO.
This has been gone over many times!
Not a shot was fired until an official "no, the stations stay" was given by ISS on this very thread! That is the ROOT of this conflict! This is not some random warmongering taking place here. An agreement was made in good faith. That agreement was broken. Private diplomatic means were ignored. Public diplomatic means failed. We chose war. What else are we to do?
Ah, that's right...we're supposed to look at a larger, richer alliance with mercs on retainer and roll over and play dead.
Not gonna happen.
Complete rubbish .... even your own corporation members have stated the Agreement could be taken "x" ammount of different ways.
The simply fact is the CVA declared War while the ISS asked all members to stay away while your "could be taken "x" ways" agreement was sorted out.
Your action CVA are wrong and no amount off justification is going to rebalance your actions
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Riddari
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:29:00 -
[402]
Neutrality doesn't exist in 0.0, no matter how many times ISS try to pretend it does.
¼+¼ a history |
Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:30:00 -
[403]
Well of course not, but if talks were still on-going or the CHANCE of diplomatic resolve was still there, then making the wardec 'official' doesn't look good.
CVA were aggressive in their approach from the outset. Aralis has been quoted from a private conversation as being anti-ISS generally speaking, which causes people to ask questions about his *real* motivations in this.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:31:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Chain Gang The simply fact is the CVA declared War while the ISS asked all members to stay away while your "could be taken "x" ways" agreement was sorted out.
Official ISS response was "no, the stations stay." Doesn't sound like any "sorting out" to me.
ISS pilots in our space has never been an issue, so offering to withdraw them is a moot point. The stations are the issue, and ISS has shown zero interest in withdrawing them. Hence, war.
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:33:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Riddari Neutrality doesn't exist in 0.0, no matter how many times ISS try to pretend it does.
Course it does. Every I see a standingless ship pass me by without me trying to kill it or it trying to kill me is proof of a very pragmatic grass roots neutrality existing between fellow pilots. The whole NBSI theme is a very powerful meme to be sure and it attracts a lot of adherants because its easy and thoughtless to implement but that doesn't mean its the only engagement meme on the frontier. ISS try to implement the don't shoot if not red concept and its to be applauded - its not taking the easy option and running with the herd.
_________________
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:35:00 -
[406]
Edited by: Zooish on 21/04/2006 14:34:58
Quote: Official ISS response was "no, the stations stay." Doesn't sound like any "sorting out" to me.
ISS pilots in our space has never been an issue, so offering to withdraw them is a moot point. The stations are the issue, and ISS has shown zero interest in withdrawing them. Hence, war.
If an alliance is talking to you to resolve problems caused by your own inaccurate territory information (you own words) then declaring war has to the utmost insult.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:39:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Riddari Neutrality doesn't exist in 0.0, no matter how many times ISS try to pretend it does.
Course it does. Every I see a standingless ship pass me by without me trying to kill it or it trying to kill me is proof of a very pragmatic grass roots neutrality existing between fellow pilots. The whole NBSI theme is a very powerful meme to be sure and it attracts a lot of adherants because its easy and thoughtless to implement but that doesn't mean its the only engagement meme on the frontier. ISS try to implement the don't shoot if not red concept and its to be applauded - its not taking the easy option and running with the herd.
Hmph. Interestingly enough, I agree with the Fractionite. CVA have always operated a strict "not red, don't shoot" policy in Providence. We open our arms to any and all who abide by the rules of our space (no piracy, and respect our claims for future industrial development...which is to say don't put up stations in our space without permission.)
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:40:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Zooish If an alliance is talking to you to resolve problems caused by your own inaccurate territory information (you own words) then declaring war has to the utmost insult.
Yes.
If an alliance is talking to us to resolve problems.
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Ric Tishek
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:51:00 -
[409]
After thinking a bit about the whole incident there can be only one reason for this:
ISS saw that CVA had laid claim to some ressource rich systems and wanted to steal them. IF ISS really was interested in peaceful cohabitation and trade, they would have tried to get good standings with current residents of the space they want build a trading outpost in.
Seeing that they tried to initiate a war with the current claimants of this space, means that this is not their intention and can only mean they seek to replace them finally.
I'm a bit surprised that they believe they can sell to the public that they are following their charter of honoring borders, if at the same they refuse to remove stations, which were placed within the claimed borders of another 0.0 entity. And wether CVA lays claim to the systems or not is the decision of CVA, not ISS.
is it really your spirit that manifests in your clone or is this just a Jovian trick to get fresh DNA for their minds? |
Whoe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:52:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Cell Satimo This whole thread is a classic.
...
Maybe we should give the whole incident a memorable title .. like, erm .. an Acryonm like 'GNW', perhaps ..
I'm thinking providence-gate?
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:03:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Garreck
Yes.
If an alliance is talking to us to resolve problems.
Which they were.
As I recall you declared war while count was ill and unable to connect to Galnet to resume full discussions.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:04:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Garreck
Yes.
If an alliance is talking to us to resolve problems.
Which they were.
As I recall you declared war while count was ill and unable to connect to Galnet to resume full discussions.
wich isnt CVAs fault, and wich didnt prevent ISS from deploying these POSes, so what?
----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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kincajou niten
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:06:00 -
[413]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Garreck
Yes.
If an alliance is talking to us to resolve problems.
Which they were.
As I recall you declared war while count was ill and unable to connect to Galnet to resume full discussions.
Again I recommend you to reread from the start. His post here was the reason of the war declaration.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:06:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Riddari Neutrality doesn't exist in 0.0, no matter how many times ISS try to pretend it does.
Course it does. Every I see a standingless ship pass me by without me trying to kill it or it trying to kill me is proof of a very pragmatic grass roots neutrality existing between fellow pilots.
There is a distinct difference between being neutral and being agressive.
ASCN operate on a NBSI within their claimed space and RSI (red shoot it) outside our space (exception being northern operation where NBSI was enforced).
But the movements of pilots and if they shoot or don't at each other is not the crux of this issue.
An entity which claims space can never be neutral towards other entities in its vicinity.
¼+¼ a history |
Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:06:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Riddari Neutrality doesn't exist in 0.0, no matter how many times ISS try to pretend it does.
Course it does. Every I see a standingless ship pass me by without me trying to kill it or it trying to kill me is proof of a very pragmatic grass roots neutrality existing between fellow pilots. The whole NBSI theme is a very powerful meme to be sure and it attracts a lot of adherants because its easy and thoughtless to implement but that doesn't mean its the only engagement meme on the frontier. ISS try to implement the don't shoot if not red concept and its to be applauded - its not taking the easy option and running with the herd.
Hmph. Interestingly enough, I agree with the Fractionite. CVA have always operated a strict "not red, don't shoot" policy in Providence. We open our arms to any and all who abide by the rules of our space (no piracy, and respect our claims for future industrial development...which is to say don't put up stations in our space without permission.)
Well your space is kind of vauge, you change your mind, and not only are you stopping people developing space you actually claim, but even space you 'plan' to claim at some point in the future.
The real reason behind this is simple.
Aralis doesnt like the ISS and he doesnt want their outposts in Providence (I understand they are being constructed some time in May), so he is going out of his way to cause them problems.
Well, good on ISS for calling your bluff.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:07:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
wich isnt CVAs fault, and wich didnt prevent ISS from deploying these POSes, so what?
CVA didnt even claim the space! They 'planned to claim it'. This whole thread is joke.
CVA you are digging your own grave.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:08:00 -
[417]
Mr Trouble is hereby advised to attend reading classes at the University of Caille, his previous academic institution seems to have done a woeful job in the "reading comprehension" seminar.
¼+¼ a history |
Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:08:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
As I recall you declared war while count was ill and unable to connect to Galnet to resume full discussions.
You recall incorrectly.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:11:00 -
[419]
A solution was even offered to ISS in this very thread:
Both sides agreed that the wording may have caused a misunderstanding. The offered solution was to move the POSes with the help of the CVA. The answer 'no, they will stay' hasn't changed it seems. ISS thus seems to have a particular reason to want exactly that system.
If they'd be neutral they could move as they did in the past. If they don't some other motives (or egos...) must stand in the way of that fairly straightforward solution (like the CVA being a rather small alliance that looks easy enough to force to accept the system being occupied). I can't see how another interpretation is possible unless you just *want* the CVA to be wrong.
Now recruiting!
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:12:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
CVA you are digging your own grave.
How many times have people said that in the past three years?
Now recruiting!
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:13:00 -
[421]
Edited by: Mr Trouble on 21/04/2006 15:14:28
Originally by: Riddari Mr Trouble is hereby advised to attend reading classes at the University of Caille, his previous academic institution seems to have done a woeful job in the "reading comprehension" seminar.
exactly what part of anything I have said is incorrect?
1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future 2) They delcared war on ISS over some POS in space they did not currently claim 3) Declaring war on the ISS and being threatening and aggressive from the outset doesnt exactly help their cause 4) Aralis has a personal dislike for the ISS as outlined in his leaked conversation with an MC official, he doesnt want them in Providence AT ALL 5) ISS offered to move the POS 1 system further out from CVA space - they rejected this outright
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Lis Dimar
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:21:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Garreck
Yes.
If an alliance is talking to us to resolve problems.
Which they were.
As I recall you declared war while count was ill and unable to connect to Galnet to resume full discussions.
wich isnt CVAs fault, and wich didnt prevent ISS from deploying these POSes, so what?
Maybe the members of CVA should show some humanity and respect that Count had real life things to deal with which should allways take priority over a game. |
Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:24:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Mr Trouble exactly what part of anything I have said is incorrect?
The part about CVA declaring war before ISS had a chance to make some sort of official response about moving/not moving the stations.
So you accept the other points then, namely:
1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future 2) They delcared war on ISS over some POS in space they did not currently claim 3) Declaring war on the ISS and being threatening and aggressive from the outset doesnt exactly help their cause 4) Aralis has a personal dislike for the ISS as outlined in his leaked conversation with an MC official, he doesnt want them in Providence AT ALL 5) ISS offered to move the POS 1 system further out from CVA space - they rejected this outright
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:24:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Lis Dimar Maybe the members of CVA should show some humanity and respect that Count had real life things to deal with which should allways take priority over a game.
Count made his official response (no, the stations stay) before war was declared...so his availability is really not even an issue.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:24:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Mr Trouble Edited by: Mr Trouble on 21/04/2006 15:14:28
Originally by: Riddari Mr Trouble is hereby advised to attend reading classes at the University of Caille, his previous academic institution seems to have done a woeful job in the "reading comprehension" seminar.
exactly what part of anything I have said is incorrect?
1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future 2) They delcared war on ISS over some POS in space they did not currently claim 3) Declaring war on the ISS and being threatening and aggressive from the outset doesnt exactly help their cause 4) Aralis has a personal dislike for the ISS as outlined in his leaked conversation with an MC official, he doesnt want them in Providence AT ALL 5) ISS offered to move the POS 1 system further out from CVA space - they rejected this outright
well.. repeating misinformation wont make it right all of a sudden... id agree with riddari here, even as im startled at the obvious low standards on graduating the science and trade institue nowadays.
cva CLAIMED this space, as was communicated to ISS. there have been various notions throughout this thread that its common practice to CLAIM a System without Fortifying it... happens in all alliances out there. So, ISS placed the pos into CVA claimed space... and then admitted in this very thread you failed to read propperly obviously that there was a misunderstanding of their part.... so much even has been agreed upon.
If it was a wise decision of Mr Trevice to relay content of a private conversation is something else to discuss, it wont belong here though. ISS offered to move the POSes one system, into CVA claimed space... they could have gone 2 systems and would have been right outside CVA space, why that avenue was not pursued escapes my knowledge though. In case you ask me ill repeat the system name again (did it previously) DP-JD4 . That system would be IN providence but OUTSIDE CVA claimed space... ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:25:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer [
cva CLAIMED this space, as was communicated to ISS.
NO, they did NOT.
CVA said they PLANNED to expand TO the system in question - no-one is questioning this apart from you.
CVA have admitted it, ISS have admitted it.
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Royaldo
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:28:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Mr Trouble Edited by: Mr Trouble on 21/04/2006 15:14:28
Originally by: Riddari Mr Trouble is hereby advised to attend reading classes at the University of Caille, his previous academic institution seems to have done a woeful job in the "reading comprehension" seminar.
exactly what part of anything I have said is incorrect?
1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future 2) They delcared war on ISS over some POS in space they did not currently claim 3) Declaring war on the ISS and being threatening and aggressive from the outset doesnt exactly help their cause 4) Aralis has a personal dislike for the ISS as outlined in his leaked conversation with an MC official, he doesnt want them in Providence AT ALL 5) ISS offered to move the POS 1 system further out from CVA space - they rejected this outright
heres something for you yo think about: 1. look at the alliance map here 2. check bob's space. 3. check ingame to see how many of them bob systems got a pos claiming it. 4. bob was just an example. 5. who are you? and have you ever used the space cva claim?
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kincajou niten
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:33:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer [
cva CLAIMED this space, as was communicated to ISS.
NO, they did NOT.
CVA said they PLANNED to expand TO the system in question - no-one is questioning this apart from you.
CVA have admitted it, ISS have admitted it.
I guess you was not participating in the conversation between Aralis and ISS staff, so I believe it would be perfect for you not to make such assumptions because they only make you look stupid.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:34:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer [
cva CLAIMED this space, as was communicated to ISS.
NO, they did NOT.
CVA said they PLANNED to expand TO the system in question - no-one is questioning this apart from you.
CVA have admitted it, ISS have admitted it.
Claim
as you young fledglings seem to not even get to use a dictionary anymore nowadays ad the SaTI, I searched that word up for you...
claim Cross references: 1. demand 1. claim \'kla-m\ \'kla--m*-b*l\ \-m*nt\ vt [ME claimen, fr. OF clamer, fr. L clamare to cry out, shout;]akin to L calare to call - more at LOW 1a: to ask for esp. as a right 1b: to call for : REQUIRE 2: to assert in the face of possible contradiction : MAINTAIN - claim.able aj 2. claim n 1: a demand for something due or believed to be due {insurance ~} 2a: a right to something; specif : a title to a debt, privilege, or other thing in the possession of another 2b: an assertion open to challenge {a ~ of authenticity} 3: something that is claimed; esp : a tract of land staked out
the bold part might hold some interest for you.
and no, you dont need a pos there necessarily to claim space as someone else noted.. if you get souvereignity there id not say it is claimed... it would be OWNED. can you look thatone up yourself?
----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:41:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Mr Trouble So you accept the other points then, namely:
Okay, if I must...
Originally by: Mr Trouble
1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future
A non-issue. ISS asked for an outline of our borders and we gave it to them. Now they have placed four stations inside those borders. That we did not yet have stations there does not change the fact that an agreement made in good faith was broken.
Originally by: Mr Trouble
2) They delcared war on ISS over some POS in space they did not currently claim
We do not officially claim it, but we did specify that it was "our" space. I suppose it remains to be seen if we can support that claim. That ISS has pushed us to the point where we should have to support the military feasibility of the claim, though, is a bit curious...
Originally by: Mr Trouble
3) Declaring war on the ISS and being threatening and aggressive from the outset doesnt exactly help their cause
Strong language is necessary to get results. Aralis was forward and firm...but polite. It was made known that CVA was willing to protect our claim with force, and now our hand has been called. Now, after our request for ISS to move the stations has been denied, we turn to armed conflict to solve the problem.
Originally by: Mr Trouble
4) Aralis has a personal dislike for the ISS as outlined in his leaked conversation with an MC official, he doesnt want them in Providence AT ALL
Largely irrelevant. Whether Aralis likes ISS or not, it was not Aralis who broke an agreement. Indeed, by dishonoring the agreement, ISS seems to be affirming Aralis' feelings about them.
Originally by: Mr Trouble
5) ISS offered to move the POS 1 system further out from CVA space - they rejected this outright
Incorrect. If I'm not mistaken, the only offer of moving the stations was actually 1 system further INTO CVA space...though I was not privy to the negotiations.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:45:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Royaldo
heres something for you yo think about: 1. look at the alliance map here
Funny that, the disputed system is significantly outside CVA's current claimed space.
Exactly as I said it was.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:49:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Royaldo
heres something for you yo think about: 1. look at the alliance map here
Funny that, the disputed system is significantly outside CVA's current claimed space.
Exactly as I said it was.
The point (which you seem to have a habit of missing) was that a lot of "claimed" space on that map is just dead space with no stations in it...which, by the logic you're applying to CVA makes the claims invalid.
To address your concerns about the contents of the map as applies to CVA, though...it has already been stated that the CVA does not report their claims to the organization responsible for that map. Our agreement was with ISS, and the details of the map are irrelevant to the terms of that agreement.
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kincajou niten
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:52:00 -
[433]
I suspect that Mr. Trouble is taking some forbidden drugs. Here is why:
- he is very hyperactive and agressive; - he forgets quickly what happened in the past couple of hours or messes it up; - he can't read properly; - he can't concentrate his attention on the certain thing and instantly moves on to the other things; - it looks like he has some fixed idea that makes him act more weird.
I think it would be very good if customs can check and if that is the case, pass him to the medical centre (or probably to CONCORD rep).
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:54:00 -
[434]
Originally by: kincajou niten I think it would be very good if customs can check and if that is the case, pass him to the medical centre (or probably to CONCORD rep).
I'm sure Archbishop and the SPCS could clean him up well and make good use of him...
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:00:00 -
[435]
So let me ask CVA - are you willing to let ISS keep POS in the system? What harm are they doing?
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:00:00 -
[436]
LOL ...
The proposed system was / is outside your Claimed Space, Maybe Claimed space and Soon Space.
CVA .... has more leaks than the titanic ...
How about Aralis private conversation stating that ..
"No matter where ISS go in Providence we will not be happy" and we will find a reason to fight them ...
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Ridek Cremmen
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:01:00 -
[437]
Might one so humble as myself suggest that there are two possible solutions that should be put on the table that would work for either side I think.
1) CVA accepts the bases in the system in question, the ISS agrees that the system remain under CVA control and laws and will provide 10% of the profit from those systems to the CVA. In essence pay taxes for the use of a CVA system to help provide for it's defense. This would allow the CVA control of the system, let them make a profit from the resources and still allow the ISS to use the system just under the CVA laws for access.
OR
2) ISS agrees to vacate the systems in question to avoid conflict. CVA agrees to cover the costs associated with the move and to provide escort to ensure the moves safety. By doing this CVA acknowledges that they do have some responsablity in this matter do to miscommunications. By eating the cost of the move CVA shows that is acepts that responsability and ISS acknowledges the soveriegnty of the systems in question.
Both solutions are fair compromises that will allow each side to benefit from them.
I will gladly offer my services as negotiator in this matter as a disinterested thrid party if needed. (No fee required)
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:02:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Chain Gang
"No matter where ISS go in Providence we will not be happy" and we will find a reason to fight them ...
That is the crux of the issue.
CVA were looking for an excuse for war. They deliberately made their statements regarding territorial intent ambigous. And then they cried 'war' at the drop of a hat.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:03:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Ridek Cremmen Might one so humble as myself suggest that there are two possible solutions that should be put on the table that would work for either side I think.
1) CVA accepts the bases in the system in question, the ISS agrees that the system remain under CVA control and laws and will provide 10% of the profit from those systems to the CVA. In essence pay taxes for the use of a CVA system to help provide for it's defense. This would allow the CVA control of the system, let them make a profit from the resources and still allow the ISS to use the system just under the CVA laws for access.
OR
2) ISS agrees to vacate the systems in question to avoid conflict. CVA agrees to cover the costs associated with the move and to provide escort to ensure the moves safety. By doing this CVA acknowledges that they do have some responsablity in this matter do to miscommunications. By eating the cost of the move CVA shows that is acepts that responsability and ISS acknowledges the soveriegnty of the systems in question.
Both solutions are fair compromises that will allow each side to benefit from them.
I will gladly offer my services as negotiator in this matter as a disinterested thrid party if needed. (No fee required)
This could work - what does CVA say to that?
Mind you, I doubt ISS are going to be willing to talk all the time you have them wardecced.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:04:00 -
[440]
Better options ...
1) The CVA remove the War Dec and everybody talks like adults
2) The CVA / ISS fight ....
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:05:00 -
[441]
Quote: How about Aralis private conversation stating that ..
"No matter where ISS go in Providence we will not be happy" and we will find a reason to fight them ...
Kinda quiet now CVA .......... message logs are such an intresting read .... your own leader sinks your battleship and argument.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:05:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Chain Gang LOL ...
The proposed system was / is outside your Claimed Space, Maybe Claimed space and Soon Space.
CVA .... has more leaks than the titanic ...
How about Aralis private conversation stating that ..
"No matter where ISS go in Providence we will not be happy" and we will find a reason to fight them ...
now, its considered impolite at least to try what you just did, by mixing a quiote with something of your own finishing the sentence.
From the info of your Corp Anger Management i see that it was created by Mongo Peck, a member of the ISSN. You of course are in NO relation to him whatsoever, and you are not playing the role of a guise of certain Mr. Peck, right?
i should have checked some pages back allready. ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:06:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Chain Gang "No matter where ISS go in Providence we will not be happy"
A fair and honest statement.
Originally by: Chain Gang
and we will find a reason to fight them ...
A figment of your imagnation.
Originally by: Mr Trouble So let me ask CVA - are you willing to let ISS keep POS in the system?
I think the CVA declaration of war answers that question directly enough.
Originally by: Mr Trouble
What harm are they doing?
This, too, has been addressed. The stations are in our space which we wish to develop.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:07:00 -
[444]
Quote: now, its considered impolite at least to try what you just did, by mixing a quiote with something of your own finishing the sentence.
From the info of your Corp Anger Management i see that it was created by Mongo Peck, a member of the ISSN. You of course are in NO relation to him whatsoever, and you are not playing the role of a guise of certain Mr. Peck, right?
I play the game an no "shelock" I have nothing to do with the ISS
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:08:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Quote: now, its considered impolite at least to try what you just did, by mixing a quiote with something of your own finishing the sentence.
From the info of your Corp Anger Management i see that it was created by Mongo Peck, a member of the ISSN. You of course are in NO relation to him whatsoever, and you are not playing the role of a guise of certain Mr. Peck, right?
I play the game an no "shelock" I have nothing to do with the ISS
of course not, how dare i even think that ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:08:00 -
[446]
Quote: and we will find a reason to fight them ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A figment of your imagnation.
So are you saying that Aralis never said, that ... you sure you want to go down that road
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:08:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Chain Gang
your own leader sinks your battleship and argument.
Hardly. It was not our leader who broke the agreement.
Is it such a mindblowing concept for a principled alliance to stand up for...principles?
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:10:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Chain Gang "No matter where ISS go in Providence we will not be happy"
A fair and honest statement.
Disturbing, more like.
I think that reveals CVA's true motivations for this conflict.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:11:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Chain Gang
So are you saying that Aralis never said, that ... you sure you want to go down that road
Quite sure. Because the point still stands that it was not CVA who dishonored the agreement.
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OVERCOPES 1
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:12:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Zooish Better options ...
1) The CVA remove the War Dec and everybody talks like adults
2) The CVA / ISS fight ....
Im all for 2 personally
Technolisa>those yellow things work better than platinum insurance :P |
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:13:00 -
[451]
Quote: Quite sure. Because the point still stands that it was not CVA who dishonored the agreement.
But your not denying that he never said it (wise move) ... because you would look rather silly.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:13:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Chain Gang
So are you saying that Aralis never said, that ... you sure you want to go down that road
Quite sure. Because the point still stands that it was not CVA who dishonored the agreement.
aralis might even have said all that, though i doubt it was in this exact form , and in the same context you used... its one thing saying that someone said several things, but then, what was the context he did? ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:17:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
exactly what part of anything I have said is incorrect? 1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future
Incorrect CVA claimed the space. The defination of the claim was made available to ISS when they asked (as well as neighboring alliances, namely Huzzah). There are friendly corperations who have asked, been granted permission to put up, and have POS up in the constellation. The only "plans" for the constellation that were discussed with ISS were plans for further development of already claimed systems, not plans to claim, as it was already claimed per the communication with ISS in February.
Quote:
2) They delcared war on ISS over some POS in space they did not currently claim
Incorrect. The conflict revolves around stations space that ISS was informed was part of CVAs claim in February when they asked. Misinterpretation of the word "to" in the claim while bizzare is at least understandable. The official statement of refusal to remove the starbases on the basis that the claim was too vague, the space was not "sufficently developed", and thus in their mind our claim was invalid was what lead to war.
Quote:
3) Declaring war on the ISS and being threatening and aggressive from the outset doesnt exactly help their cause
What exactly do you propose? Useing harsh language? All diplomatic options were exercised. Keep in mind that ignoring of our communications, in addition to us observing them onlining multiple weapon batteries while ignoring us gave us more cause for alarm than the prior incidents with small towers with single weapon batteries and moon miners. Acting swiftly in this case was important becuse of the possiblity of a permanant sructure (outpost) going up in our space.
At least the current situation can still be resolved with relatively minimal losses. Warships and starbases can be moved eventualy. Outposts are permanant. Once an outpost goes up there is no way that ISS can move it out and still retain their investment.
Quote:
4) Aralis has a personal dislike for the ISS as outlined in his leaked conversation with an MC official, he doesnt want them in Providence AT ALL
Golan well knows that the ultimate goal of the CVA has always been to have Providence recgonized as an offical part of the Amarr empire. ISS couldn't care less about the Empire so long as it makes money for its shareholders.
Nevertheless, at least they do not fire on neutrals, so we have some things in common. If they had built outside of the CVA claim I can assure you war would not have been the result, regardless of our feelings as to their piety or dedication to the Empire.
Quote:
5) ISS offered to move the POS 1 system further out from CVA space - they rejected this outright
Incorrect, ISS offered to move it on system further INTO CVA space.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:21:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Clavius XIV
1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future
Incorrect CVA claimed the space. The defination of the claim was made available to ISS when they asked (as well as neighboring alliances, namely Huzzah). There are friendly corperations who have asked, been granted permission to put up, and have POS up in the constellation. The only "plans" for the constellation that were discussed with ISS were plans for further development of already claimed systems, not plans to claim, as it was already claimed per the communication with ISS in February.
Rubbish - you never claimed that space. Its only when ISS expressed an interest that your borders 'suddenly' expanded by 200%.
You must think people are stupid or blind. We know what CVA is playing at here - you don't want ISS in Providence at any price.
Have you considered that the local population stands to gain much from ISS developing the region? I for one want their outposts, especially if they are in 'deep providence'.
The truth is CVA are just being greedy, you're too small to manage providence, and your 'comedy claim' over half of it is just a joke. Grow up and stop acting like children.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:22:00 -
[455]
Edited by: Garreck on 21/04/2006 16:23:17
Originally by: Chain Gang
But your not denying that he never said it (wise move) ... because you would look rather silly.
I can certainly deny he's never said it to me or expressed such sentiments to the alliance. I cannot speak for what goes on in private conversations between Aralis and others because...well...they're private conversations between Aralis and others.
This is hardly relevant to ISS breaking their agreement with the CVA, though. Indeed, ISS's actions seems to affirm Aralis' alleged ill-will towards them.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:24:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Garreck
This is hardly relevant to ISS breaking their agreement with the CVA, though. Indeed, it seems to affirm Aralis' alleged ill-will towards them.
No, it proves their are ulterior motives.
WHY are CVA so against the ISS developing an area of space they rarely if ever are seen in, have no assets etc - when this development will benefit all of providence.
CVA are being short-sighted, and I hope you get put in your place.
I'm sure ISS would love another 'free outpost'.
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:24:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Quote: Quite sure. Because the point still stands that it was not CVA who dishonored the agreement.
But your not denying that he never said it (wise move) ... because you would look rather silly.
anyways, your trying to twist quotes and partial quotes ripped out of their context to support your agenda to make CVA look bad. You should try to do it with more research and by presenting proof instead of some deformed quotes.
Now, do me a personal Favor, and even though you are not affiliated with Mr Mongo Peck from the ISSN, give him a nice greeting from me if he joins your Corporation (wich he creates btw) again to look for another employee. ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:26:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
anyways, your trying to twist quotes and partial quotes ripped out of their context to support your agenda to make CVA look bad. You should try to do it with more research and by presenting proof instead of some deformed quotes.
CVA have done a remarkably good job of making them look bad by themselves.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:27:00 -
[459]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
No, it proves their are ulterior motives.
ISS breaking their agreement proves that the CVA has ulterior motives?
Nice.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:28:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Mr Trouble
No, it proves their are ulterior motives.
ISS breaking their agreement proves that the CVA has ulterior motives?
Nice.
No, CVA suddently expanding their borders by 200% then wardeccing ISS would prove that alone.
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|
Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:29:00 -
[461]
I repeat my question:
WHY are CVA so against the ISS developing an area of space they rarely if ever are seen in, have no assets etc - when this development will benefit all of providence?
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Cell Satimo
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:31:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Whoe
Originally by: Cell Satimo This whole thread is a classic. ... Maybe we should give the whole incident a memorable title .. like, erm .. an Acryonm like 'GNW', perhaps ..
I'm thinking providence-gate?
That works well: 'PG': The CONCORD rating to be applied when defining borders of one's alliance space and/or future expansions.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:34:00 -
[463]
So lets recap ...
1) Your leader in a conversation states he "hates the iss" and no matter where they go in providence he will find an excuse to "declare war on them"
2) You give information about your borders to the ISS which your own guys find confusing and unclear and include the whole of providence under the section "Soon"
3) You declare War on an alliance that has asked all its members to stay away from your space and "claim" its in the name of peace.
Your funny CVA ........ I suggest the ISS keep you as a Pet.
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Orilion
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:38:00 -
[464]
Edited by: Orilion on 21/04/2006 16:38:14 Before anyone replies to Chain Gang, please dont do it... his purpose is obvious here. Same can be applied to Mr Trouble. Lets not waste out efforts on alt¦s please.
Edit, Name
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Goodtime Girl
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:40:00 -
[465]
Urm looks like the CVA chains been rattled
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:42:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Goodtime Girl Urm looks like the CVA chains been rattled
The rattling will take place in space. I've been ordered by my betters to be silent.
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Mr Trouble
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:43:00 -
[467]
Edited by: Mr Trouble on 21/04/2006 16:43:54 Well come on, I'm sure the residents of Providence are dying to know why CVA want to deprive them of two outposts.
so I repeat my question a third time:
WHY are CVA so against the ISS developing an area of space they rarely if ever are seen in, have no assets etc - when this development will benefit all of providence?
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Chain Gang
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 16:43:00 -
[468]
Quote: The rattling will take place in space. I've been ordered by my betters to be silent.
Good Boy
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Sushi Tanaka
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 17:18:00 -
[469]
Edited by: Sushi Tanaka on 21/04/2006 17:19:35
Originally by: Mr Trouble so I repeat my question a third time:
WHY are CVA so against the ISS developing an area of space they rarely if ever are seen in, have no assets etc - when this development will benefit all of providence?
No need to repeat a misphrased question.
You should be asking "why is the ISS breaking its own charter in defying the CVA claim?" and not trying to derail the conversation.
(EDIT: spelling) |
Adlee
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:22:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
WHY are CVA so against the ISS developing an area of space they rarely if ever are seen in, have no assets etc - when this development will benefit all of providence?
I think this is a key question that I too would like to see answered. We can speculate however...
Since PIE have an outpost nearby and already allow neutrals in the space and to dock, it seems likely that they plan to put up another outpost of their own in the same area, and develop the area themselves. The fact that ISS is making a politicaly risky move to keep the POSes there rather than moving suggest that these are in fact not random systems but prime outpost locations.
What is disturbing about this is that one of the main elements of the ISS outpost security plan relies on neighboring Alliances not being interested in expending effort to conquer trade hubs. From what I am reading here it seems that the goal of the CVA is similar to that of ISS - fostering trade, and collecting docking fees.
Also they seem to have some pretty fanatic roleplay notions.
If I were a stockholder I would ask ISS management how they plan to garuntee the security of an outpost that would lie within what CVA claimes are its borders. Would the MC need to be kept under hire indefinatly, and if so, would the cost be absorbed by ISS Providence and impact our returns.
With PIE having deep enough pockets to build an outpost of their own, what plans are in place to prevent them turning around and hiring MC to retake the Providence outposts before the 12-24 months projected for us to recoup our initial investement.
Assuming that the outpost does not fall, what if any will be the impact on our returns if the area becomes an active warzone?
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:25:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Quote: Quite sure. Because the point still stands that it was not CVA who dishonored the agreement.
But your not denying that he never said it (wise move) ... because you would look rather silly.
Stop trolling ...
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Mr Mister
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:39:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
so I repeat my question a third time:
WHY are CVA so against the ISS developing an area of space they rarely if ever are seen in, have no assets etc - when this development will benefit all of providence?
For someone who is so insistent on getting a "correct and proper" response, why do you keep asking such an incorrect question? Change never benefits ALL involved. How can you expect an acurate response to such a general question?
It may benefit all you care about.
It may even benefit the vast majority.
It won't benefit "ALL"
But mainly, given you patently disagree with any answer anyones given you so far.
Why should anyone bother answering this one?
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:08:00 -
[473]
Quote: Stop trolling ...
CVA stop hiding .....
Your own leader has been recorded saying he hates the ISS and this "political problem" is just a smoke screen.
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Ridek Cremmen
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:16:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Quote: Stop trolling ...
CVA stop hiding .....
Your own leader has been recorded saying he hates the ISS and this "political problem" is just a smoke screen.
Okay please provide proof of this statement because I have not seen these words posted..
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:16:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Chain Gang
Quote: Stop trolling ...
CVA stop hiding .....
Maybe when you stop hiding behind a fake identity, Mr. ISS. Are you guys all so ashamed of your real organizations?
Now recruiting!
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Inkie
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:17:00 -
[476]
Posting chatlogs is not allowed.
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Miss Lear
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:20:00 -
[477]
I feel so much anger and frustration from this chat.
All i can say is that if this does turn out to be a lasting war, it is going to get bloody, and alot of people are going to get involved.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:28:00 -
[478]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 21/04/2006 18:30:58
Originally by: Inkie Posting chatlogs is not allowed.
Link to that Concord rule, muchthanks?
Very few things in New Eden are truly private, communications with Concord being one of them.
And Cell, yea - claiming space is bad enough. Claiming space where you don't even have a prescence...heh.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Ztang Canary
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:41:00 -
[479]
Finally...CVA leadership has silenced its flock! I was wondering how long it would take before the hammer came down on playing up to these faceless jokers that keep inflaming this issue. Pathetic cowards they are too...hiding behind alts. Their origin is rather plain to see tho. Quite similar to how children respond, in fact; When a child is admittedly at fault, or caught lying, they will quite often find devious methods of punishing those that put them right. Or...put their hands up before their eyes and exclaim: "now..I cant see you, so you cant see me!" ....
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Atlas Oracle
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:47:00 -
[480]
as an oustider and a bit of a n00b, i just want to add to this thread that i'm really dissappointed to see ISS and CVA in conflict. these two organizations have my highest respect for the very admirable, altruistic, and actionable goal of civilizing some 0.0 space for commerce and development by the citizens of EVE. their treatment of neutrals, and the standards and precedent of citizenship represented, garnered my sincere respect.
i feel some of my own innocence lost in reading about the genesis of this conflict, two organizations i deeply respect for their principled conduct and goals, in conflict with each other. in particular, the meddling alts are very dissappointing to see. and i was surprised to see MC jump in to stir things so quickly.
god speed to all, and maybe ISS and CVA will recognize their goals are mutual and a conflict like this pollutes the greatness of their shared purpose.
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Grim Savage
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:34:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Atlas Oracle as an oustider and a bit of a n00b, i just want to add to this thread that i'm really dissappointed to see ISS and CVA in conflict. these two organizations have my highest respect for the very admirable, altruistic, and actionable goal of civilizing some 0.0 space for commerce and development by the citizens of EVE. their treatment of neutrals, and the standards and precedent of citizenship represented, garnered my sincere respect.
i feel some of my own innocence lost in reading about the genesis of this conflict, two organizations i deeply respect for their principled conduct and goals, in conflict with each other. in particular, the meddling alts are very dissappointing to see. and i was surprised to see MC jump in to stir things so quickly.
god speed to all, and maybe ISS and CVA will recognize their goals are mutual and a conflict like this pollutes the greatness of their shared purpose.
You must be a traitor to your race when you speak so highly of the Amarr alliance. No wonder the Minmatars never manage to build anything and spend all theire isk on exotic dancers and drugs.
As a Caldari Buissnies card-holder, I have to say that I like the basic original idea of the ISS. However, ISS have lost track of theire goals, and take active parts in big-alliance politics.
CVA's goal to claim the Providence region for the Amarr priests, might make sense for them. ISS just want to plant a terrorist trainingcamp there, where the likes of UK, MC and theire friends can plan attacks on the god-loveing and peacefull amarr people.
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Atlas Oracle
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:41:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Grim Savage You must be a traitor to your race when you speak so highly of the Amarr alliance. No wonder the Minmatars never manage to build anything and spend all theire isk on exotic dancers and drugs.
As a Caldari Buissnies card-holder, I have to say that I like the basic original idea of the ISS. However, ISS have lost track of theire goals, and take active parts in big-alliance politics.
CVA's goal to claim the Providence region for the Amarr priests, might make sense for them. ISS just want to plant a terrorist trainingcamp there, where the likes of UK, MC and theire friends can plan attacks on the god-loveing and peacefull amarr people.
hey man, whatever gets you through the day.
i despise Amarr for what they think they do to my brother and sister, but i don't let it blind my eyes with blood and rage. i do not respect CVA for being Amarr, i respect them for undertaking the means to civilize 0.0 space, even to the point my racial brothers and sisters can fly and do business in it.
your views about ISS are your own, and irrelevant to me to be clear.
rage and bile are poison to the resonable man. all appears yellow the jaundiced eye, friend.
peace be with you.
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Royaldo
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Posted - 2006.04.21 21:30:00 -
[483]
Originally by: Mr Trouble
Originally by: Royaldo
heres something for you yo think about: 1. look at the alliance map here
Funny that, the disputed system is significantly outside CVA's current claimed space.
Exactly as I said it was.
Tell me... are you retarded? Or just born without balls? Science and Trade Institue... how about joining a pod pilot corp?
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Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:30:00 -
[484]
Originally by: OVERCOPES 1
Originally by: Zooish Better options ...
1) The CVA remove the War Dec and everybody talks like adults
2) The CVA / ISS fight ....
Im all for 2 personally
OC what ou doing in that corp! makes ya look soft and.. friendly..
As for the two ISS alts that have been trolling this thread, shame on you for adding nothing and inflaming the situation! ISS leadership needs to clamp down on its dogs.
As to your question of WHY- you miss the entire point. CVA are not against ISS building in provi, no one really is, I even own shares in ISS providence! The real problem here is ISS is breaking its charter, breaking its tradition of neutrality and respect for the neighbors it wants to develope with. CVA has done the right thing in standing up to ISS over this, you can never appease someone even once! they will always want more!
What I want to know is why ISS is endangering the Enitre ISS providence, by refusing to remove a few POS! What is so hard about correcting your mistake... remove from the said system, and get back to building the Outposts!
If you loose ISS Providence over 1 damned system, I and the other shareholders will NOT be pleased! www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.21 23:07:00 -
[485]
Quote: As to your question of WHY- you miss the entire point. CVA are not against ISS building in provi, no one really is, I even own shares in ISS providence! The real problem here is ISS is breaking its charter, breaking its tradition of neutrality and respect for the neighbors it wants to develope with. CVA has done the right thing in standing up to ISS over this, you can never appease someone even once! they will always want more!
Complete rubbish and "wordsmith" trying to hide the truth ....
Aralis has stated in many logged conversations that he doesn't want ISS "anywhere" in Providence and he would find any reason to oppose it and declare war ..
Nothing else matter .... all the fancy speeches, all the shouting up the Amarr.
Stop hiding .... and playing political games ..... remove the I've got a big gun attitude, because you haven't, remove the War Dec and I'm sure it will be sorted.
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.22 00:39:00 -
[486]
Quote: "So you accept the other points then, namely:
1) CVA did not claim the space, they only planned to at some point in the future 2) They delcared war on ISS over some POS in space they did not currently claim 3) Declaring war on the ISS and being threatening and aggressive from the outset doesnt exactly help their cause 4) Aralis has a personal dislike for the ISS as outlined in his leaked conversation with an MC official, he doesnt want them in Providence AT ALL 5) ISS offered to move the POS 1 system further out from CVA space - they rejected this outright"
For those like Mr. Trouble who are obviously lacking the ability to understand a simple situation I'll spell it out for you clearly.
#1. It makes no difference that CVA didn't have soverignty there and only planned to move there. Why? Because there was an AGREEMENT made between the CVA and ISS as to the future boundries. The dispute is over ISS breaking the agreement not the system itself.
Clear?
#2. They declared war after ISS broke the agreement and said NO they wouldn't move the stations. As the agreement was recognized by ISS the day before (when they did move some stations) its clear ISS recognized and ACCEPTED the agreement. Suddenly they break it. That is why the CVA declared war.
Clear?
#3. The "threat" and "agression" was on the part of ISS. THEY are the ones who refused to honor the agreement THEY MADE in February. CVA gave them 24 hours to move the POSs and only declared war after ISS REFUSED to move them from a system THEY AGREED was CVA space back in February. As for "threat" I suggest you consider the MC being waved around as "threat" long before CVA declared war.
Clear?
#4. Personal conversations aside who cares. I don't care for several corporations and don't like their activities. From strip mining to macro mining there are alot of people I'll speak out against. I don't care for many corporations or their business tactics. Thats besides the point. What Aralis feels really doesn't matter as this isn't about that at all. This is about one thing and one thing only. ISS has BROKEN AN AGREEMENT they made with the CVA in good faith. They've even ADMITTED IT WAS A MISTAKE yet they still refuse to correct it and remove the POS stations.
Clear?
I personally could care less what a trolling alt has to say anyway. But just in case someone reads your trash and starts to believe it I thought I'd set the record straight.
Clear?
By the way oh uninteligent flaming one you should know the ISS actually AGREED to recognize the future CVA "plans". How is this proven? Well by the fact the ISS moved the other POSs when Aralis complained.
So clearly the ISS did in fact intend to honor the claim. Instead they made a mistake. Rather then correct it they postured and thus now risk the investment of many shareholders (myself included).
Clear?
Oh and as for the other flaming trolling alt who is to cowardly to post with a recognized personage (Chain Gang thats you). Just a quick word of advice. Flamming and trolling get you no where and eventually you're recognized as such. Try having a little courage and honor and posting as yourself rather then hiding behind a disguise. I personally suspect both you and Mr. Trouble aren't even part of the ISS or CVA. You're just flaming alts who like to stir things up.
Purely JUVENILE in other words.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.22 00:42:00 -
[487]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 22/04/2006 00:42:02
Originally by: Zooish
Stop hiding .... and playing political games ..... remove the I've got a big gun attitude, because you haven't, remove the War Dec and I'm sure it will be sorted.
Stop hiding behind an alternative character in an IC forum and post with your main, grow a pair and stop hiding behind aninimity! Remove the "I've got an opinion attitude" because until you can express those opinions as someone involved in this or at the very least, as someone who is not hiding behind a childish forum flame alt.......
Your opinion is worth as much as a diseased slave!
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.22 00:46:00 -
[488]
As for the other corpless, mindless, courageless pilots like Zooish (another of the above mentioned "mystery" posters) you said this.
Quote: "Aralis has stated in many logged conversations that he doesn't want ISS "anywhere" in Providence and he would find any reason to oppose it and declare war .."
Actually Aralis didn't say that. He said he preferred they not be in Providence. Perhaps you could point out where he said he'd "find any reason to declare war".
Or are you just a liar who adds things that weren't said?
I'm waiting?
Again, have some courage you coward. Hiding behind a mask earns you no credibility. Your a professional flamer and nothing more.
Nothing is in dispute here.
CVA said they were going TO that system. The websters dictionary is pretty clear about the definition of the word TO (that being a destination or final location).
Its also clear the ISS did in fact recognize the claim to future expansion by the fact they actually did move POSs the day before. If they didn't recognize the planned expansion why would they do this?
I'm waiting?????
Oh and one more thing. The war declaration was only after ISS refused (officially) to move the POS from CVA space. In other words it was the only option available on the table after ISS refused to live up to the agreement they recognzied in February.
Its all really simple actually. ISS has violated their charter in which they state they'll honor the boundries of the 0.0 "host" alliances. Instead they first claim the word "TO" is confusing, then claim "well CVA isnt that big anyway".
In other words they attempted to justify breaking an agreement. Thats what its all about.
CVA declaring war has nothing to do with this.
ISS broke the agreement. Plain and simple. Even the ISSN representative agreed it was a mistake.
So why don't you just fly away back to the noob system you came from and play with your Imparior or whatever it is you fly. Leave the serious stuff to the people who are courageous enough to actually post WHO THEY ARE not some pathetic little alt like yourselves.
Honestly. So juvenile and immature. Its amazing.
As for ISS. I hope you recognize you made a mistake and move the POS. Its that simple. When your own people are saying "it was a mistake" it should be obvious. Then again your own people are brave enough to post as who they are. Not as pathetic newbies we see here barely out of school.
Then again I've always considered ISS to be honorable and as a shareholder I'm also concerend what a four empire wide war against ISS assets and corporations (both member and non-member) over the next one to two years will have. What will happen to my dividends?
Do the right thing. Move the POS. Hell maybe make it a "buffer" zone between CVA and ISS and have both agree not to build there. But you did make the agreement. CVA did say they were going "TO" there. Its clear and cant be denied.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Yakti
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Posted - 2006.04.22 01:00:00 -
[489]
yarr
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Lake
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Posted - 2006.04.22 03:46:00 -
[490]
Edited by: Lake on 22/04/2006 03:52:23 I hope you now better understand why ISS seemed so oddly stubborn about moving 'just a few moon bases'. ISS is now committed to this project both by operational circumstances and by the Providence Project's shareholders. CVA has not, as far as I'm aware, presented any viable option to ISS. I imagine CVA opinion is now staunchly behind war (they have been aware of these details throughout) no matter is presented.
I have always appreciated CVA's efforts in developing Providence. In fact up until this conflict Praxis Empire operations took place in CVA's back yard. We have done our best to contribute to keeping this area safe and prosperous alongside CVA corps and other local corporations. It pains me to see these same corporations which I am accustomed to identifying as 'friendly' when seen in the space lanes taking up arms again us. I understand the allegiance you feel to CVA for what they've done for Providence. In this, however, they are acting against the interests of Providence, trying to stagnate development in an attempt to keep it all for themselves. Being intolerant of what was genuinely an honest misunderstanding, because it suits their motives.
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Lake
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Posted - 2006.04.22 03:46:00 -
[491]
Edited by: Lake on 22/04/2006 03:47:36 I do not represent ISS in this post. I represent myself and The Praxis Initiative.
As I noted previously, I generally do not involve myself in the main thread of ISS Politics. However I have assembled a short summary of events that I have been using to explain the situation to my own corp members (who have not read every post in this thread, as I have, or have access to as much internal ISS Information such as complete chat logs and evemails, as I do). I am not trying to prove the points listed. I believe Count and Serenity are assembling the relevant information to back up their position. I have attempted to be only as precise as my understanding of the situation permits. I do not claim it is completely without error, rather I will continue editing this GalNet post adding more details or making corrections as necessary.
It is not an argument for one course of action or another (that comes in the following post). This is simply meant to explain ISS's actions to those who (like me) couldn't figure out why ISS had lost it ('it' being either their Neutrality or their Minds).
- ISS wants to set up an outpost in Providence.
- ISS prudently wishes to accommodate nearby Alliances and contacts CVA (among others) requesting information with regard to CVA's future expansion.
- Due to the unusually bizarre map layout of the area at issue and the very terse description given by CVA, ISS misinterprets the request of CVA with regard to CVA expansion plans.
- ISS never made any agreement to stay out of the space at issue because they never understood that they were even requested to do so.
- After ISS devotes many billions of ISK, moving millions of cubic meters of material (note that freighters can only be loaded at stations, making it significantly easier to move to the site than away), and deploying several large POS, CVA notice the misinterpretation when the sovereignty claim appears on the map.
- At this point removing the operation is not reasonably feasible. CVA, having experience deploying a single outpost, have an idea of how difficult it would be to move two outpost construction plans any significant distance.
- Due to Count's illness responses from ISS to deal with the situation were delayed, presumably inflaming the situation.
- CVA were never happy with ISS further developing the Providence region as CVA wishes to maintain exclusivity with regard to Providence Trade.
- CVA believes that ISS deliberately deployed in a system that CVA had specifically claimed, that this was not simply a misunderstanding.
- CVA believes the space in question is now CVA Sovereign space. It is unclear when they believe this sovereignty was established.
- ISS believes the space in question is not CVA Sovereign space, citing that the only thing resembling a 'claim' made on said space was a response to a request by ISS enquiring about CVA future expansion plans.
- ISS believes that without established sovereignty CVA is not a 'Host' alliance and therefore this situation is not covered in the ISS Charter.
- CVA are committed to war in any circumstance where the outposts are to be deployed where they sit or any nearby systems to which the project could feasibly be moved.
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.22 04:16:00 -
[492]
You're missing a key point Lake. You state the ISS never had intended to stay out of the CVA systems. This is proven false. How? Because just prior to this ISS did in fact move some POS stations they had placed inside this zone. That proves they recognized this area as part of their agreement and understood they werent supposed to be there.
The other issue is the fact CVA indicated they'd go out TO 3kb-10. Now according to websters dictionary (and everything else) the word "TO" implies a destination, a final location where you end up, its pretty "clear".
I myself can accept that the ISS made an honest mistake. But the correct thing to do, to respect the agreement they made in good faith, would've been to move the 4 POS stations. This was long before "millions of tons" of materials (as you call it) was set for shipping and setup. In other words there was plenty of opportunity. The delay was caused by the refusal of ISS to abide by the agreement they made in February and affirmed a day earlier when in fact they DID move POS stations.
As for trade sure everyone likes a monopoly. But the CVA came right out and said "we plan to expand to here, keep the rest, have fun". They didn't try to force ISS out nor did they try to interfere with the new outposts. The only issue here is the agreement which ISS broke apparently by mistake then stubbornly refused to correct.
So no one is trying to stagnate development. In fact if ISS left the contested system and moved one jump away they'd be out of the area. They could setup there and there would be no issue.
Understand this. The only issue here is a broken agreement. Anything else is irrelevant in retrospect. If the agreement had been honored in the first place ISS would have no issue with the CVA and could happily setup their POS and Outposts without problem.
They made a choice not to do that.
As for soverignty you forget what I mentioned above. That the ISS did in fact RECOGNIZE this the day before when they moved the POS stations. Why would ISS do this if they didn't recognize it?
That in itself is proof enough.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.22 04:55:00 -
[493]
Can somebody tell me if diplomatic talks are happening at all?
It would seem sheer foolishness for the ISS to try to build an outpost in said system, with the CVA being hostile to them right at its doorstep. In fact, peace with the CVA should be one of the most important factors that needs securing before a new outpost is built.
Actually, I'm pretty amazed that anyone cares about this system, including the CVA. I know, I know...agreements, etc. But is the system really *worth* anything, besides being a convenient location for starbases (tbh, I'm not even sure about that)? ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Verge Genesis
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Posted - 2006.04.22 05:06:00 -
[494]
Edited by: Verge Genesis on 22/04/2006 05:07:20 Archbishop,
You keep mentioning "The ISS" undertaking all sorts of actions and this is simply not how the ISS functions. Those four POSes were moved by their parent corporation in response to CVA; it was their choice, not Count's. The ISS is a federation of independent traders and the actions of one member corp have absolutely nothing to do with the construction of publicly owned outposts.
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Vera Nosfyu
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Posted - 2006.04.22 05:08:00 -
[495]
Archbishop, while I make no claim to liking you to begin with it particularly irks me when you abuse our language. To is NOT necessarily inclusive. For example, have you ever built a bridge? I'm sure you have, one of those nice holy things you people like to do. Anyway. Let's say you're building a bridge across the river Styx after someone finally kills you and sends you to Hell where you belong. In any case, you build your bridge from one side to the other. Your bridge crosses the gap. And then it stops. It has not gone into either side. That is in fact why we have the word "into."
I understand your pressure as a propagandist to demonize your opponents and apotheosize your allies, but please don't stain the language while you do it.
In any case, that is not what I came here to say. Stormriders knows the cruelty of these Amarrian wretches that call themselves CVA and while we do not forsee the ISS or MC needing any help to defeat these pathetic curs we would like you to know that should you need any form of assistance please contact us as it would be our pleasure to perform any action that may aid the downfall of these tyrants. -----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.22 05:14:00 -
[496]
Originally by: Vera Nosfyu To is NOT necessarily inclusive. Let's say you're building a bridge across the river Styx after someone finally kills you and sends you to Hell where you belong.
Thank god you cleared that up, it almost sounded like the good Bishop might have gone into hell, lucky for him you explained this so well.
As for SRS getting involved, that would NOT be your best interest. www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Lake
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Posted - 2006.04.22 05:37:00 -
[497]
Edited by: Lake on 22/04/2006 05:37:56 The precise misunderstanding about the word 'to' is not really that important. It's simply one detail from Count's post that people have glommed onto. Having read the relevant logs/evemails it's easy for me to see how there was a misunderstanding (regardless of its specifics) especially given the confusing nature of this particular section of map.
The system from which ISS moon bases were previously removed at the behest of CVA was LF-2KP. This system is 3 jumps (two of them constellation jumps) from the 3KB-J0 system which is currently at issue.
The 'supposition' that the CVA request for ISS to withdraw from 3KB-J0 came long before the project became more than just a couple of moon bases is simply not accurate. Also remember that the Sovereignty claim does not necessarily appear on the map the day the moon bases are deployed. They can be in place indefinitely before claiming and in fact require 'up to 5 days' (according to the control panel, and recent patch notes) for sovereignty to be demonstrated. It would be no surprise to me if the moon bases had been there for quite some time in preparation.
As for the supposition that ISS could move one jump away to resolve this whole matter: It is my understanding that ISS has already made this offer and it has been declined by CVA. Unless of course the jump to which you refer is the regional jump into Catch which is of course not in keeping with the Providence Project's requirements.
And as for confirming the location of Outpost plans: I considered this matter carefully and at great length. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who might act against the construction plans is already very well aware of them based on information already present in this thread. Given the lack of secrecy at this stage I thought it more important to be open about motivations than try to continue to pretend 3KB was just a few moon bases with the hope that someone's third cousin may not have figured things out yet.
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.22 05:57:00 -
[498]
Quote: "You keep mentioning "The ISS" undertaking all sorts of actions and this is simply not how the ISS functions. Those four POSes were moved by their parent corporation in response to CVA; it was their choice, not Count's. The ISS is a federation of independent traders and the actions of one member corp have absolutely nothing to do with the construction of publicly owned outposts."
You claim the ISS isn't an alliance at all basically? Then perhaps you'd care to explain the MC presence and their contract with the ISS (which isn't representing these people as you claim)? If that was so wouldnt those four outposts be the property of one corp and if attacked not subject to ISS intervention?
The actions of your alliance and member corps has everything to do with your outposts. You can't just wash your hands of it and say "oh well thats not us" and expect a free pass.
Quote: "The precise misunderstanding about the word 'to' is not really that important. It's simply one detail from Count's post that people have glommed onto. Having read the relevant logs/evemails it's easy for me to see how there was a misunderstanding (regardless of its specifics) especially given the confusing nature of this particular section of map."
Well its one detail thats kind of a big one wouldn't you say? And if as several ISS people have said it was a mistake whats the prudent course? To remove them. To fix the mistake. Like the other ISS corp did correct?
Quote: "The 'supposition' that the CVA request for ISS to withdraw from 3KB-J0 came long before the project became more than just a couple of moon bases is simply not accurate. Also remember that the Sovereignty claim does not necessarily appear on the map the day the moon bases are deployed. They can be in place indefinitely before claiming and in fact require 'up to 5 days' (according to the control panel, and recent patch notes) for sovereignty to be demonstrated. It would be no surprise to me if the moon bases had been there for quite some time in preparation."
So youre saying ISS basically snuck in there, knowing that was the boundry, and put those up in the dead of night? Very interesting indeed and more revealing as to motive. Certainly ISS knew of the CVA claim to that system as where they'd expand "TO" (theres that word again).
Quote: "As for the supposition that ISS could move one jump away to resolve this whole matter: It is my understanding that ISS has already made this offer and it has been declined by CVA. Unless of course the jump to which you refer is the regional jump into Catch which is of course not in keeping with the Providence Project's requirements."
ISS never offered to move one jump. They offered to let the CVA move one jump (to another system they had planned already under the agreement).
Oh theres that "agreement" again. The thing that was broken, even if by mistake, thats now being ignored by everyone.
Quote: "And as for confirming the location of Outpost plans: I considered this matter carefully and at great length. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who might act against the construction plans is already very well aware of them based on information already present in this thread."
Well according to you the ISS is going ahead with this. Thats unfortunate as the CVA has already indicated their course. I still have hopes peace will rule the day.
Since the ISS has already indicated they're going to do this perhaps another meeting to establish boundries (in stone this time) where the CVA takes say 3-4 other systems in that area to make up for the disputed one?
That might be something both sides could live with? A war lasting years between the forces of Amarr and the ISS would be very costly to all in blood and money. It is something to avoid for all our sakes. After all we fight for God and Empire. In the end thats all there is.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Lake
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Posted - 2006.04.22 06:14:00 -
[499]
Edited by: Lake on 22/04/2006 06:17:53 I did not post to 'prove', only to explain. If you do not agree with the premise behind my explanation then no amount of arguing will bare fruit. I hope that others (than Archbishop) were more receptive to what I had to say.
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.22 06:26:00 -
[500]
Well as you've apparently read the agreement (or misagreement) as it was relayed in February perhaps you'd be so kind as to cut and paste it here so we can all see what was misunderstood. All I've done is talk to people and I'd be very interested in reading the exact text and what was said (and not said). It would actually clear things up very easily for the ISS thus I see no problem with not posting it entirely. Do you?
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
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Lake
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Posted - 2006.04.22 06:28:00 -
[501]
Edited by: Lake on 22/04/2006 06:30:19 I was not a party to the communication. I will leave disclosure to someone who was. It is my understanding that it will be released in the near future along with a great deal of other documentation.
-- Lake, Founder of The Praxis Initiative |
Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.22 07:10:00 -
[502]
Considering this is apparently an unreverable operation it didnt take ISS all that long to move the POS and any over materials there in the first place.
Secondly i don;t think ISS quite understand what they are doing, CVA is open space to all honest traders we support this space with the help from the locals, in essence this is not just CVA space. Your actions in claiming this system are basically shooting yourself in the foot as your potential customers will be at war with you.
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Verge Genesis
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Posted - 2006.04.22 08:41:00 -
[503]
The system from which ISS moon bases were previously removed at the behest of CVA was LF-2KP. This system is 3 jumps (two of them constellation jumps) from the 3KB-J0 system which is currently at issue.
Wow... somebody should have said this earlier, would have shut up people like Archbishop with their talk about all kinds of duplicitousness.
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Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:32:00 -
[504]
Edited by: Golan Trevize on 22/04/2006 10:33:10
Originally by: Beringe Can somebody tell me if diplomatic talks are happening at all?
It would seem sheer foolishness for the ISS to try to build an outpost in said system, with the CVA being hostile to them right at its doorstep. In fact, peace with the CVA should be one of the most important factors that needs securing before a new outpost is built.
Actually, I'm pretty amazed that anyone cares about this system, including the CVA. I know, I know...agreements, etc. But is the system really *worth* anything, besides being a convenient location for starbases (tbh, I'm not even sure about that)?
Ive tried... Instead ive been branded hereric...CVA leadership know the lenghtsts ive gone to..these matters of personal honour will be resolved in space at a apropiate time. otherwise my channles are still open and i am still working for a peacefull solution to this tradegy...
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
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Samantha Vimes
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:46:00 -
[505]
Edited by: Samantha Vimes on 22/04/2006 10:47:09 Edited by: Samantha Vimes on 22/04/2006 10:46:40 Yes I am an alt.
ould it be possible for the people on this thread to state which characters that are posting are actually doing so on behalf of both sides. Both ISS and CVA. There are so many alts and flamers posting here to make proper discussion unrealistic at best.
And a few personal notes:
Chain gang: If you are a member of ISS, shut the frig*replace with appropriate word* up, you are not helping. If you are not a member of ISS, shut the frig*replace with appropriate word* up, you have no interest here If you are a member of CVA, shut the frig*replace with appropriate word* up, and stop flaming
Archbishop: As far as I can tell you are mearly friends of CVA, and as such have no possible way of knowing the internals of what you are talking about. Let the leaders of the alliances sort this out.
All:
Freighters can only drop stuff, they cannot pick stuff up. It makes a fair bit of sense to drop all the stuff at once (around the time you claim soverignty) to avoid drawing attention to yourself whilst you put up an outpost. They seem like sitting ducks when they are going up. CVA did not start this when the POS's went up, they started it after the soverignty was claimed. This shows that the problem is not the POS's themselves but the soverignty. And following that the outpost. -OR- It shows that the system is not travelled or used by CVA for any purpose other than to say that they own it.
Finally: Stop arguing about the definition of the word 'to' It is used to mean the outer limit. Either inclusive or non-inclusive (that was why the term 'up to and including' was coined, to get around this problem.) If CVA wanted to ensure no problems they really should have taken the time to write a complete list stating what systems were taken. When placing an outpost so close to CVA space ISS should have asked if it was an acceptable location.
Finally (honset this time): Is there anything that can be done (assuming ISS will not move their POSes) that will appease CVA. Please only answer this part if you CAN SPEAK FOR THE WHOLE OF CVA.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:55:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Golan Trevize
Ive tried... Instead ive been branded hereric...CVA leadership know the lenghtsts ive gone to..these matters of personal honour will be resolved in space at a apropiate time. otherwise my channles are still open and i am still working for a peacefull solution to this tradegy...
I'm sure the CVA would love to open talks again Golan, but how many more private conversations are going to find their way onto GalNet?
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Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2006.04.22 11:06:00 -
[507]
In all my comms with Arails he has been aware that i would post chat logs to the M-C client.
So find another way to insult me....and ill deal with it accordingly.
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.22 11:07:00 -
[508]
Originally by: Golan Trevize In all my comms with Arails he has been aware that i would post chat logs to the M-C client.
So find another way to insult me....and ill deal with it accordingly.
But not the public forums.
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Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2006.04.22 11:19:00 -
[509]
its unimportant..........what matters is a peacyeull sollution to this tradgedy.
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
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Ethidium Bromide
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Posted - 2006.04.22 11:37:00 -
[510]
then ISS should move to a system out of the claimed constellation.
however i am sure nobody wants ISS in providence as their 'you don't shoot us you can use the outpost' policy will only attract pirates and other criminals and offer them a safe harbour in a region of space they did not have one before.
_________________________________ just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.22 12:36:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Golan Trevize its unimportant..........what matters is a peacyeull sollution to this tradgedy.
Well, posting the private conversation didn't *really* help with that. You have made clear that your loyalties are with your current employee, which is an understandable stance for a mercenary no doubt. You'll have to accept though that your image shifted from 'Amarr hero' to 'common mercenary', which was a painfull thing for those who almost worshipped you in the Amarrian camp and causes some irritation and thus harsh words. I pledge you as an old comrade to not add insult to injury with vendettas against those who 'soiled your honor'.
In two respects you will always be a true son of Amarr: you excell on the battlefield and your diplomatic skills are lacking unless laserfire is involved. Unfortunately I can just claim the latter for myself without second thoughts.
Now recruiting!
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.22 13:32:00 -
[512]
Quote: "Archbishop: As far as I can tell you are mearly friends of CVA, and as such have no possible way of knowing the internals of what you are talking about. Let the leaders of the alliances sort this out."
Well I have spent about an hour talking to Aralis about it......... as myself.
And I've spent several hours on the ISS forums reading about it as well as talking to others there about it........ as someone else.
And I've spent time talking to others about it as a shareholder......... as someone else.
After all under this cloak you don't know who I really am anyway do you?
But as I've indicated before I fully support efforts at peaceful negotiation. I pray God gives us a way out of this debacle. As the ISS has apparently admitted it was a mistake (admitted several times here now) I can't imagine how THAT fact is overlooked.
Quote: "Ive tried... Instead ive been branded hereric...CVA leadership know the lenghtsts ive gone to..these matters of personal honour will be resolved in space at a apropiate time."
As for Golan Trevize...... I've not branded you a heretic. In fact the main objection to your comments revolve around your ascertation that the CVA has lost God and become a greed driven organization here:
Quote: "I have tried to mediate in this conflict but Sadly it seems the CVA has changed its objectives since i was its leader , no longer the CVA can be said to be a benevolent organization whos only intersted is to expand the holy Empire and bring prosperity to a wartorn and lawless region, CVA has turned into a organization like so many others , run by greed and the desire for profits , no longer it holds true to the ideals i and the CVA leadership agreed on when we cleared the region of pirates a long time ago."
THAT is the issue many loyal Amarrians.. myself included.. take offense to. The loyalty of the CVA has never been questioned. You yourself encouraged the move to Providence as I recall. Long term hopes include the desire to see the Empire expand in that direction further solidifying the hold our great civilization has on the universe.
It is that and that alone that so many found offensive. If you were to offer an apology for that comment I think you'd find feelings changed dramatically. I myself was very disappointed to read this as I know from both ends the efforts you are putting forth to resolve the crisis.
Quote: "Now i have the outmost respect for the golden fleet ..... ive led it for alsmost my entire career.... but belive me a war with ISS and the Mercenary coalition is the last thing you want...none would benefit from this and i fear the CVA fleet would take dire losses, i know you are brave and proud but please do not force our client into a corner and resort to violence. My capitalship fleet numbering more than 30 vessels is positioned to strike anywhere in Providence/Curse/Catch , our attention has so far been pointed at criminals and vermin installations, please do not force me to look at CVA Claimed space."
I quite honestly find this very ironic coming from a man who once led his Battleship crews on a regular basis into encounters where they were outnumbered 2-1, 3-1 or even 4-1. I recall an instance where you yourself once destroyed four enemy Battleships single handedly with your highly trained Apocalypse crew. Certainly you know better than anyone else the faith in God and Empire drives us far more than any fear of ship losses.
But I will pray for your success at mediation. Should your efforts be successful I myself will be apprecative for them.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Carnagge
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Posted - 2006.04.22 15:31:00 -
[513]
Lake you sir are a moron. You just basically told everyone we made a mistake and arnt moving and we dont have to be nuetral because someone else said so, yet your alliance charter says otherwise.
ISS never made any agreement to stay out of the space at issue because they never understood that they were even requested to do so. - You only asked about future expansions and what they would consider to be their claimed space.
CVA were never happy with ISS further developing the Providence region as CVA wishes to maintain exclusivity with regard to Providence Trade. - doesnt matter, its irrelivant. Your suppose to be nuetral
CVA believes that ISS deliberately deployed in a system that CVA had specifically claimed, that this was not simply a misunderstanding. - It would appear to be that way after you deployed a station took it down then deployed more later. If it was a misunderstanding, you would have removed the POS.
CVA believes the space in question is now CVA Sovereign space. It is unclear when they believe this sovereignty was established -When you asked them for there future expansion plans, is when it was there space.
ISS believes the space in question is not CVA Sovereign space, citing that the only thing resembling a 'claim' made on said space was a response to a request by ISS enquiring about CVA future expansion plans. - You asked what was there's they tell you? Then you decide well its not really marked on the map... So lets just go there anyways? The whole point of contacting them was to not step on there toes and respect your charter or nuetrality was it not? I mean thats why you were contacting them in the first place.
ISS believes that without established sovereignty CVA is not a 'Host' alliance and therefore this situation is not covered in the ISS Charter - To me you've just said if you arn't with us we dont have to apply our alliance charter to you. Which would be wrong and as a newbie to this game I would never join a corp that thought that way, and I'm sure many experienced players would agree.
I'm still on 14 day trial and I can see how flawed this whole situation is. ISS is not nuetral in this situation.
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Collision Murphy
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Posted - 2006.04.22 15:43:00 -
[514]
You people who speak of God as an entity you look at when deciding things of war in this GAME are truly going to hell. The only God is in REAL LIFE! Stop hallucinating and calling to the fake God that you "talk to" in the game. You're condemning yourself because of your overbearing roleplaying. Seriously, if you believe in God so much, then you'd better be talking to the God of real life, and not the Amarrian God. And I'm pretty sure God doesn't care about Eve. Sheesh. |
Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.22 15:59:00 -
[515]
Originally by: Collision Murphy You people who speak of God as an entity you look at when deciding things of war in this GAME are truly going to hell. The only God is in REAL LIFE! Stop hallucinating and calling to the fake God that you "talk to" in the game. You're condemning yourself because of your overbearing roleplaying. Seriously, if you believe in God so much, then you'd better be talking to the God of real life, and not the Amarrian God. And I'm pretty sure God doesn't care about Eve. Sheesh.
Read stickies before posting in a forum... www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Nasi San
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:49:00 -
[516]
Edited by: Nasi San on 22/04/2006 16:53:39 Edited by: Nasi San on 22/04/2006 16:52:52 Okay, I'm new to this game, but after reading through all these post I just had to make some comments after which I hope I can refrain myself from reacting to the obvious replies it is going to cause as all previous posts did as well...
First I need to say this: Carnagge, I've never seen someone who is capable of misreading someone as good as you did... First of all Lake just gave a polite description of his views, so don't start with saying he's a moron. It isn't constructive and obviously immature. Then you start giving your own misinterpretation of his words and start reading them as facts. Well, I think the more adult and intelligent readers see the faults in his arguments, but I would like to give some examples:
Originally by: Carnagge CVA were never happy with ISS further developing the Providence region as CVA wishes to maintain exclusivity with regard to Providence Trade. - doesnt matter, its irrelivant. Your suppose to be nuetral
How is this irrelevant? Because the ISS is neutral? I mean, I could say: 'You don't like me' and then you would say: 'That doesn't matter, you have blond hair.'. I fail to see how this is an argument at all. He simply tries to point out CVA might be looking for a reason to declare war on the ISS, that's all.
Originally by: Carnagge CVA believes that ISS deliberately deployed in a system that CVA had specifically claimed, that this was not simply a misunderstanding. - It would appear to be that way after you deployed a station took it down then deployed more later. If it was a misunderstanding, you would have removed the POS.
Did you even read the post? Did you read that the station wasn't in the same system? I thought it was weird at first as well, but that post clarified a lot for me.
Originally by: Carnagge CVA believes the space in question is now CVA Sovereign space. It is unclear when they believe this sovereignty was established -When you asked them for there future expansion plans, is when it was there space.
This is getting frustrating... It's not like almost EVERY single post is about the fact that the plans were at the least a bit vague! It's almost like you skipped all posts and just started typing a response blindly. And how are plans the same as sovereign space? That's nonsense. A vague description makes everything CVA Sovereign space all of a sudden? It's that easy?
I need to stop responding to that post.. since I think most of you already read through the weak arguments in this post I figure.
Now I'm not saying CVA has weak arguments, don't get me wrong. But fact remains that it seems a lot of work went into building those stations and I must say you are responsible for your own vague claim in Febuary. I study law, and that desciption of yours is terrible. North of this, west of that.. I mean, that's just horrible. And don't get me started about the whole 'to' discussion... that's why you aren't vague in important discriptions! Both explanations are feasible, but the fact remains ISS did ask you, so that shows good intentions according to me. Declaring war just two days after this public discussion got started doesn't. If you were really intent on preventing an all-out war you would have at least tried to talk a bit longer than that. And don't use 'we had an official statement that they weren't going to move' as an argument, that's just an excuse. You could have at least tried to convince ISS to do so or why not for an entirely different solution? More ways lead to Rome, but war doesn't according to me. This way peace doesn't stand a chance.
Problem is that both teams have already dug themselves in. I think the reasons for this conflict are now clear to everyone, so let's move on and start looking for solutions because what's done is done. There is no side to fully blame in this I think..
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Lord Artemis
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Posted - 2006.04.22 17:36:00 -
[517]
I have to ask, Are the academies teaching CVA vs. ISS politics nowadays? I find it quite odd the generous amount of knowledge these new pilots (portraits haven't even been loaded)have about the subject. ___________________________
Aegis Militia Diplomatic Relations Officer C.E.O. of SHOD
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Nasi San
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:09:00 -
[518]
I'm sorry, I didn't know you had to learn politics from a game.. I thought reading the news and studies were enough to understand the information posted here... But seriously, is that the point? I just read the information in this tread and got interested since this is a situation that plays in my region and thinking about joining a corp. But you know what? Okay, I admit it, I'm an alt, I've been playing for 3 years and don't want to damage my friends for posting my own opinion. Better? If you like to think that that's okay as well, since I think as long as its a constructive post it's a good reason.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:18:00 -
[519]
Using fake identities shows a lack of faith in the validity of your arguments (or inflamatory bits and pieces) or a lack of courage to risk the consequences of acting all big (which the people hiding behind fake identities usually do looking like monkeys in the process). In any case not worth the read.
Now recruiting!
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Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:34:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Nasi San I'm sorry, I didn't know you had to learn politics from a game.. I thought reading the news and studies were enough to understand the information posted here... But seriously, is that the point? I just read the information in this tread and got interested since this is a situation that plays in my region and thinking about joining a corp. But you know what? Okay, I admit it, I'm an alt, I've been playing for 3 years and don't want to damage my friends for posting my own opinion. Better? If you like to think that that's okay as well, since I think as long as its a constructive post it's a good reason.
what games are you talking about? We dont care what you do in your games.
what worries me though is your alignment with the dreaded ALT Cult, posts of these are hunted down by the Communication Relay Commision without mercy. ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:50:00 -
[521]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 22/04/2006 18:51:09 I dont see that this discussion has any merit at this point.
The ISS chose to explicitly deny the validity of a CVA claim and in doing so no longer can be understood as a neutral entity, but rather as one that has chosen for some reason to become embroiled in territorial issues. The CVA therefor had no choice but to respond in the manner they have now started to do, as it is obvious here that the ISS do not wish peace.
If the ISS want peace, they will be working with Aralis to end this issue, if they do not they will be sacrificing their neutrality and abandoning their charter. That is the stance I, and PIE am takeing on this issue, and it is not going to change. The further speculating and posturing that is all this thread consists of at this point seems pointless.
I pray that Amarr will see the best result possible come out of this, whatever it might be.
God is with us. PIE Website |
Nasi San
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Posted - 2006.04.22 19:08:00 -
[522]
I would like to apologize sincerely for my reaction, I did not realize the specific rules for communication. Hopefully you are able to forgive me my ignorance since I am new to this universe. I will refrain from further commenting since I don't want to divert the attention of this discussion from the far more important matters that are at stake here and am ashamed of the inexperienced response posted by me..
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Kristoffer
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Posted - 2006.04.22 22:27:00 -
[523]
Its obvious that ISS is merely attempting to manipulate the media and turn everyone against CVA. It isn't working. ISS is the real enemy here.
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Carnagge
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Posted - 2006.04.22 22:29:00 -
[524]
By placing POS in 3KB-10//Q-6LGI we have honoured Aralis and CVA's initial request and chosen POS Placements and access routes that do not include the area 'heading east out of f-yh5b and 3kb-10'.
Yet you guys placed a POS there... Yet you guys deny any wrong doing. Then later on in the thread you guys say its much harder to take a POS down than put it up. Comes off as being too lazy to want to move it. Then you claim its not marked space so it doesnt matter. Then why were you asking in the first place. Then you guys ask and go ahead anyways. You guys have fun. You do what you want to do and thats part of the game. But to drag a almost 20page thread out on Hooked on phonics didnt work for me is funny.
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Otangka
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Posted - 2006.04.22 22:48:00 -
[525]
errm this seems a nice place to talk about HAC prices.
discuss:
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Rosco
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Posted - 2006.04.23 01:21:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Carnagge Lake you sir are a moron.
I'm still on 14 day trial and I can see how flawed this whole situation is. ISS is not nuetral in this situation.
Get a life and a grip. Being an alt and less than 5 days in game, doesn't give you a clue as to the events going on. Look in a mirror if you want to find a moron.
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RedstormIsWatchingYou
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Posted - 2006.04.23 01:49:00 -
[527]
Edited by: RedstormIsWatchingYou on 23/04/2006 01:51:26 ISS is not a neutral entity, they are merely manipulating the media along with their lapdogs and attempting to cast CVA as the bad guys, which in this situation they hardly are.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.23 02:19:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Lord Artemis I have to ask, Are the academies teaching CVA vs. ISS politics nowadays? I find it quite odd the generous amount of knowledge these new pilots (portraits haven't even been loaded)have about the subject.
My thoughts exactly.
As previously stated, I hope that the actual involved parties are ignoring this anonymous rabble. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 02:47:00 -
[529]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 23/04/2006 02:52:53
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 22/04/2006 19:01:23 I dont see that this discussion has any merit at this point.
The ISS chose to explicitly deny the validity of a CVA claim and in doing so no longer can be understood as a neutral entity, but rather as one that has chosen for some reason to become embroiled in territorial issues. The CVA therefor had no choice but to respond in the manner they have now started to do, as it is obvious here that the ISS do not wish peace.
If the ISS want peace, they will be working with Aralis to end this issue, if they do not they will be sacrificing their neutrality and abandoning their charter. That is the stance PIE is takeing on this issue, and it is not going to change. Peace is good, but its ISS that has to make it happen. The further speculating and posturing that is all this thread consists of at this point seems pointless.
I pray that Amarr will see the best result possible come out of this, whatever it might be.
Have you read the origional agreement? I have, and it is no way clear what the meaning was. Moreover, the CVA broke off negociations to attack.
ISS were not willing to move away pending the results of the negociation, which is entirely understandable given the logistics of the situation, and the fact that they were negociated with in what swiftly became bad faith does not in any way negate their charter.
This is a clear case of aggressive action taken by the CVA, and thus I wonder that PIE, who hold themselves as Defenders of the Empire, are at all interested in this conflict, especially given the fact that PIE left Providence because their goals in defence of the Empire diverged from those of the CVA.
Given the bad faith of the CVA in the matter, I would suggest that the next move diplomatically has to come from them. Given the forces arrayed against the CVA, a swift backdown at this point is the best practical soloution. If acompanied by language polite enough, the origional goal might even be established.
Although, bluntly, if I oersonally were the ISS I'd burn the CVA out of Providence at this point, given the bad faith they showed in attacking while private negociations continued.
Despite that, the good of stability in the region for the denizens who would be crushed underfoot dictate that another offer of mediation be extended, if either of them wish it.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.23 03:34:00 -
[530]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 23/04/2006 03:35:46 Bad faith was building battlestations in territory next door to CVA claims without asking the CVA's opinion on the matter, even if they believed that it actually wasnt claimed.The ISS started this on bad faith when they invaded CVA space to build battlestations my good terrorist become anarchist.
They continued the bad faith by not answering private communications, and by refusing once the CVA was forced to public ultimatums to recognise the validity of the CVA claim.
Therefor once they had pronounced that because they misunderstood CVA claims (which should have resulted in them asking for clarification, by the way):
Quote:
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
In essence that is as absolute as you can get and gives the CVA only two options. Surrender their claim on the system, or declare war. The CVA, entirely justly, chose to defend their claim that the ISS had chosen to utterly ignore.
This thread was effectively over on the third page. Count TaSessine decided that he would rather attempt to challenge the CVA's prior claim than aknowledge it, and in doing so effectively gave the CVA no choice but to defend Amarrian space.
Everything since has been fallout from that one decision.
Quote: I wonder that PIE, who hold themselves as Defenders of the Empire, are at all interested in this conflict, especially given the fact that PIE left Providence because their goals in defence of the Empire diverged from those of the CVA.
All this shows is that you know nothing about PIE. Our goals did not change, our methods changed. PIE still does, and always has supported the expansion of the Amarr empire into providence that the CVA project represents. The limitations of the Concord Alliance system do not allow PIE to accomplish its methodology and remain in a CVA rightly devoted to the outward expansion of the empire, but that does not mean that we do not fully support the methods used by Aralis.
The attack on CVA claimed territory by the ISS placement of battlestations is effectively an attack on Amarrian claimed territory.
The CVA has PIE's full support in this matter.
God is with us. PIE Website |
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 03:52:00 -
[531]
Why is it bad faith to build in lawless space, which they fully believed was not claimed by any organisation? They worked on what was their belief - and I can fully understand, having seen the document as I said - that what they were doing was entirely unobjectionable.
And I am not an anarchist, and never have been.
Your first quote is not something I said, or would say, and I would suggest that it might be appropriate to use the GalNet functionality of showing the name of the person quoted in future. It is something, indeed, ISS said - and which is entirely reasonable. It is a posision statement and the basis for future negociations, and indeed those negociations were underway when they were broken off and CVA attacked.
That they should want it is perfectly understandable when you consider the CVA as just another pig-dog alliance who are worried over the incursion of a civilian entity cutting into the profits that their vassals generate for them from their Outposts.
What is undenyable is that what began as a minor dispute over the placement of starbases quickly turned into an attack by the CVA on a civilian entity within New Eden. This war had swiftly balloned, with such noble (snort) entities as Curse Coalition declaring the CVA's cause just (which in itself should make you stop and consider).
The CVA cannot realistically hope to stand against the forces the ISS can buy - it matters not your faith when you do not have the big guns to hold your own in lawless space - and I say once again that negociation is the better path. Or as a ancient book I once read stated you will find that "He who has sown the wind will reap the Whirlwind".
This situation has every potential of being just as bad for the CVA as for the Amarrians when they began their assualt on the Jove. All you are achieving in your stance is destablising the region for the pod pilots not directly affiliated with the warring parties.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Lienzo
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Posted - 2006.04.23 03:54:00 -
[532]
Can't say that I'm particular to either side, but if either wanted peace, they privately lay out plans to collaborate on developing some system near to the current one. From what I understand, the system itself is worthless much like KDF.
Wasn't CVA supposed to fight The Corp Whose Name Must Not Be Spoken awhile back? And don't most folks think for no particular reason that ISS is really The Corp Whose Name Must Not be Uttered, although their combat tactics emphatically demonstrate otherwise?
CVA and ISS should probably draw up separate proposals then compare notes, find very specific (meaning not vague or general) points of agreement and build a Plan based on those key points.
I guess I'll get back to making ammo and rifters now.
Assault Missile Launcher Improvement
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.23 04:18:00 -
[533]
Quote: "Have you read the origional agreement? I have, and it is no way clear what the meaning was. Moreover, the CVA broke off negociations to attack."
Then post it and enlighten us all.
As for not being "claimed" perhaps you in your own speical anarchist way could explain why the ISS moved stations earlier in the week inside the boundry if they DIDNT understand the original agreement? If they didnt understand it and it wasnt clear wouldn't they have left those there as well?
Simple question. Answer?
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.23 04:26:00 -
[534]
Quote: "The CVA cannot realistically hope to stand against the forces the ISS can buy - it matters not your faith when you do not have the big guns to hold your own in lawless space - and I say once again that negociation is the better path. Or as a ancient book I once read stated you will find that "He who has sown the wind will reap the Whirlwind"."
The ISS doesn't only live in lawless space do they? And I'd wager from my exposure to them as an anonymous shareholder and forum lurker that 95% of their corporations are not combat oriented. This includes the ones who aren't in the alliance formally in game because they've been told they can "hide" this way. Those are all well known and in a long term war are all valid targets.
Certainly the CVA will take losses in a war I'm just wondering how much a 1 year contract for the MC costs and wondering if they can be everywhere all the time? If I was a member ISS corporation or even one hiding out of the formal alliance I'd be very afraid of retaliation. Certainly the MC would destroy CVA assets in Providence. What then?
Keep in mind I'm not asking this as an Amarrian but as an ISS shareholder. I'd like to be sure my investment in ISS outposts is secure and that the financial viability of ISS corps, which allows them to maintain POSs to maintain soverignty where they hold outposts, is stable.
The ISS says itself on its own website they're not focused on combat and instead hire people to fight for them. Thats fine from a combat point of view but as a stockholder I'm concerned the 95% of corporations not geared toward combat are going to be vulnerable in a long term war that would last months if not years. After all the religious zealotry of the Amarrians in CVA is well known. Fighting for God they are tenacious warriors. I know this from personal experience as a religious man myself. Nothing comes between the glory of God and Empire.
As for these 95% of ISS corporations the damages could be astronomical as they watch their ships being blasted out of the sky right and left. I shudder to think of the value of my stock plumetting as dozens of ISS corporations are attacked in a holy war. I'm genuinely afraid of the impact of such an event on the value of my stock portfolio. Wouldn't you be as well?
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Kular
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Posted - 2006.04.23 05:41:00 -
[535]
Edited by: Kular on 23/04/2006 05:41:03 Im with Archbishop on this, I invested in ISS Providence because I wanted to see the region grow, CVA has been doing this for well over a year now, ISS must work with them not in spite of them!
I know many other shareholders who feel the same way, I wonder perhaps if a vote migt persuade the leadership to please remove those POS and seek negotiations. www.AegisMilitia.com For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.23 06:25:00 -
[536]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 23/04/2006 06:28:32 The first quote was the statement that incited war, my good (if unperceptive) 'former' terrorist.
I thought the source of that would be obvious by the context and as I mention both the third page (which it came from) and Count TaSessine (who said it on the third page) soon after and didnt bother with the syntax of that forum function.
That phrase is the one that made all negotiations impossible, because it is the one that proved ISS had no regard for the CVA's claims, which therefor gave the CVA no other option. I wonder if when the ISS chose to ignore the CVA claim they had a similar opinion to:
Quote:
The CVA cannot realistically hope to stand against the forces the ISS can buy - it matters not your faith when you do not have the big guns to hold your own in lawless space - and I say once again that negociation is the better path. Or as a ancient book I once read stated you will find that "He who has sown the wind will reap the Whirlwind".
When they decided to, instead of offering negotiations, catagorically deny the possibility of moveing their invasion.
What I see you suggesting is that the CVA should surrender when the big boys come to town. That Amarr should bow in the face of a capitalist corporation when they try to bully it. You suggest that the CVA cannot defend its claims, and therefor they dont count and the CVA is in the wrong because they are attempting to defend their claim when it is attacked by a corporation with more money.
Yet you are a fractionite... which makes your statement here odd as you accuse CVA of doing what the JF does on a monthly basis. Or does your corporation no longer pride itself on takeing on the big dogs when they start bullying?
The CVA is doing what is right and good in defending their claim to expand Amarrian interests into that system, a claim that the ISS now contests unjustly, even if your economic analysis was truely accurate (which I would contest, you underestimate the CVA badly) that is what matters.
Quote: Why is it bad faith to build in lawless space, which they fully believed was not claimed by any organisation? They worked on what was their belief - and I can fully understand, having seen the document as I said - that what they were doing was entirely unobjectionable.
Building one system out from what you consider the claim to be, especially when the claim is concievably vauge enough to cover the system you are building in, without asking for clarification and at least notifying your new neighbors... is hardly a action in good faith. And if they were confused, why didnt they ask the CVA in the first place rather than assume they were ok? Im beggining to think that they didnt care, because, if they thought as you seem to think, no 'rational' alliance the size of the CVA would contest it.
The ISS needs to remember its charter and not treat the CVA and Amarrian interests as if it is an entity they can bully in the providence region. Count TaSessine chose to break neutrality for the ISS by denying the CVA's right to a claim, and therefor only he can restore neutrality.
God is with us. PIE Website |
Samantha Vimes
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Posted - 2006.04.23 08:34:00 -
[537]
Numerous times over the last 18 pages we have heard CVA (+co.) mention the agreement between ISS and CVA about space. Never once has evidence of this agreement been posted. What has been posted is evidence that ISS reqested info from CVA, when plans were being drawn up about ISS expansion, regarding CVA's expansion to ensure that the two impacted each other to the least possible extent. CVA then stated that they were planning or considering expanding out to these systems (I am considering investing in ISSs future projects, does that mean that a set of shares should be held for me to make my mind up?) Anyway, this investigation of expansion plans is NOT an agreement between two parties, this is a way to help ensure that hostilities did not ensue. The fact that ISS has built their POSs here demonstrates that, if they wanted to steal teritory from CVA, surely they would have done so to a system that was not so far from CVA (claimed, actually claimed not possibley wanted) space?
Guys come on, ISS did not steal space, the location may be inconvinient to CVA but it is in no way hostile. CVA was given adaquate warning that ISS was considering expanding (they were consulted in febuary) and if they wanted to officially claim the space they could have done so (For an alliance that needs all that space, one POS per system is not that hard is it?). ISS then chose space that was as close to CVA as possible (they used to be trade partners remember) without making CVA expansion difficult (Next time you are in the map, look at the system in question and count the jumps to CVA space).
CVA havent lost anything, they just have one less system to claim, next time BoB, or Hazzah, or perhaps even Red alliance claim a system will you war dec that alliance as well?
As a side note, Last time I checked (by flying to a claimed moon) all POS's have fairly large guns... They also cannot be used as an offensive weapons platform any more than lots of giant secure cans (or one freight container) filled with guns. So please stop calling it a battle station, it doesnt have that capability and you know it.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.23 09:04:00 -
[538]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 23/04/2006 09:06:18 Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 23/04/2006 09:04:19 Sorry, a battlestation does not require offensive firepower beyond its immediate location, it just is any station with a military purpose as its primary function.
Which in this case, is what these stations are.
Let me pull a description by Clavius from earlier in the thread
Quote: I appreciate in an organization as large as yours you may not be privvy to all the operational details. This is a little more than a small tower as in the prior incidenct. We are talking about a sovgrinty claim in one system and 4 large towers with no industry of note and scores of weapon emplacements. As we tried to contact an ISS representative and were being ignored, more weapon batteries were being onlined.
(bolding is mine)
We are not talking mining stations here, we are talking military instalations made to claim and maintain soveriegnty in the system by force and nothing else. These stations represent a militaristic foritification of space the CVA is reserving for Amarr.
That this started as a misunderstanding is entirely likely.
However, the ISS has brushed off all CVA attempts to rectify this misunderstanding. They forced the issue by not responding when the matter was private to be brought to a public venue, and then once here they responded by denying that the CVA had any right to the claim the CVA was makeing here.
With this statement negotiations were rendered pointless:
Quote:
Therefore ISS cannot reasonably recognise CVA's alleged future expansion plan to include these systems.
Count TaSessine made the decision, without seriously negotiating with the CVA first it seems, to force the CVA either to surrender their claim to the rights to expand Amarr into that system to a non-Amarrian capitalist or fight.
They made the only reasonable decision in the situation.
Count TaSessine made the decision that it was quite simply cheaper to alienate the CVA and force a confrontation at the cost of the neutrality he supposedly endorses than it was to move the stations.
Every drop of blood spilled is on his hands for that arrogant and coldy capitalist decision. Every last drop.
Until that statement is changed, the Count is giveing the CVA no choice. There cannot be effective negotiations when the blanket answer of 'no, we dont care about your opinion here' has already been given.
God is with us. PIE Website |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.23 10:08:00 -
[539]
Quote: Count TaSessine made the decision, without seriously negotiating with the CVA first it seems, to force the CVA either to surrender their claim to the rights to expand Amarr into that system to a non-Amarrian capitalist or fight.
They made the only reasonable decision in the situation.
Count TaSessine made the decision that it was quite simply cheaper to alienate the CVA and force a confrontation at the cost of the neutrality he supposedly endorses than it was to move the stations.
Every drop of blood spilled is on his hands for that arrogant and coldy capitalist decision. Every last drop.
Until that statement is changed, the Count is giveing the CVA no choice. There cannot be effective negotiations when the blanket answer of 'no, we dont care about your opinion here' has already been given.
So your saying "as well" that providence is only open to "True Amarrians" and all other races / corporations are not welcome ... this kinda sums up the CVA attitude.
Providence is only open for them .. and the rest is a smoke screen to hide their true greed.
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Sidyous
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Posted - 2006.04.23 11:53:00 -
[540]
Edited by: Sidyous on 23/04/2006 11:53:26 Just a couple of things: We have offered to help move any POS out of the systems to a new location where ever that could be in providence or catch we'd have to discuss the logistics of that as would require quite a coordinated effort but i'm sure its feasable.
We do not mind others being in providence. We have friends who have placed POS in our systems but not claimed any sovereinty of those systems. We do not claim all of providence even though it would be nice to do so.
We do not do this for personal gain we do it for the Amarr Empire hoping to one day give it up to the future Emperor(I wouldn't call that greed). Yes with another station in area it is a rival in terms of that industrial type stuff (i'm a fighter not an industrialist) which would make the parts of the region we are after more difficult to maintain due to less income.
We did tell ISS of our plans and they were ignored there are plenty of places in providence they could use to place an outpost but they decide to try and place it there. We did have good relations with ISS and MC before they crossed this line heck we would like good relations again.
Aralis' personal opinions are not relevant as they are not the opinions of the whole of the CVA.
Sidyous CEO Auctoritan Syndicate -----------------------------------------------
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Christa Larne
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:05:00 -
[541]
Edited by: Christa Larne on 23/04/2006 12:07:11 Not content with CVA threatening and bullying ISS we now have PIE (Archbishop) threatening to extend this war to any and all civilian corps that they can link in any way to ISS. The true colours of the Amarrian race are finally being shown and perhaps now people will recognise the evil that is the Amarrian culture.
They do not believe in the rights and freedoms of anyone but themselves. You only have to read the recent article by Hardin, the CEO of Imperial Dreams and a spokesperson for CVA where he stated, "...one by one the other empires will accept our overtures or they too will fail." Their single goal is to impose their rule and their religion on the whole of Eden and anyone who stands in their way will be 'crushed'.
The Minmatar peoples have seen this evil first hand. We have thrown off their oppressive yoke and we will never cease the fight to see these expansionist and dictatorial tyrants thrown from power. When the Amarrian people show that they are fit to take their place in a civilised society alongside the other enlightened races we will finally end the fight against them. Unlike them we have no interest in domination or subjigation, we want peace and freedom for all.
Yesterday it was the fighters of the Ushra'Khan that stood in the way of the imperialist dreams of CVA and their allies. Today it is an ISS outpost that stands in the way of their domination of all space and all peoples in the name of their emperor and of their foul religion. Tomorrow will it be you that their eyes have settled upon? Based on the words of their own leaders they will be coming after you sooner or later. You can choose to live your life with their flag flying overhead, or you can fight.
Do not be deceived, this conflict is not about an outpost, or about interpretations. It is about the battle for survival between the Amarrians who would dominate and control all of us and those who would see us all live in peace side by side. You will have to pick a side eventually, make sure you do not leave it so late that your choice no longer has meaning.
If you too share our anger at the way the Amarrians dismiss the freedoms and rights of not only every other race but also large segments of their own people then join us in the fight to overthrow them and return peace, stability and freedom to all. You can find us at the Ushra'Khan communications portal.
Edited for grammar -----------------------------------------------
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Marcus Sinad
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:12:00 -
[542]
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide then ISS should move to a system out of the claimed constellation.
however i am sure nobody wants ISS in providence as their 'you don't shoot us you can use the outpost' policy will only attract pirates and other criminals and offer them a safe harbour in a region of space they did not have one before.
OK, now we may be getting down to the meat of what is bothering some Pilots about this new Outpost and it's location.....
The possibility of an Outpost in Providence attracting "pirates and other criminals" would of course also include Minmatar terrorist organizations; AND it could be possible that ISS's neutrality policy in regards to whom is considered "public" and "acceptable" MAY give the terrorists a new base of operations to harass the Empire. Could this scenario to come to pass?
Yes, it potentially could, no arguments there.
However, in regards to this possiblity, there has been, and still is, a solution to this problem that some of you may not have considered. To be specific, in the area around R3-K7K there exists a volunteer organization of Pilots from several different corps and alliances called the "R3 Anti-pirate movement". I know for a fact that this organization (that holds no official status as an "alliance") of Pilots does an awesome job of controlling that chokepoint and maintaining security in that area. I know this because I was a participant of it, and it is quite effective. Such organizations as this have been and would continue to assist CVA, Huzzah Federation, and ISS affliated corps in maintaining the security of Providence.
Not only that, but it could be argued that the non-Amarrian loyalist corps/alliances in the area have been good allies in our fight against Sansha's Nation, as well as assisting us in fighting the terrorists. The vast majority of of these Pilots, whom are not under the command of Amarr in any direct way, have been for the most part law abiding guests of our Empire and have contributed in the economic expansion of the Southern Domain and Providence areas.
So if I may ask the question, exactly how would the placement of an Outpost in Providence actually hurt the Amarrian cause?
True, there will be new risks to deal with, but it can be shown that the Pilots of Southern Domain and Providence (regardless of Political and Economic affiliations) will rise to the challenge of utilizing the Outpost's potiential for Amarrian expansion as well as their own finanacial goals. To my way of thinking, We the Amarrian People, are shooting ourselves in the foot with the prosecution of this War.
We have enough true enemies to fight, we should be looking to eradicate those foes and not those whom have been our friends. |
Sidyous
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:35:00 -
[543]
Originally by: Christa Larne Edited by: Christa Larne on 23/04/2006 12:07:11 Not content with CVA threatening and bullying ISS we now have PIE (Archbishop) threatening to extend this war to any and all civilian corps that they can link in any way to ISS. The true colours of the Amarrian race are finally being shown and perhaps now people will recognise the evil that is the Amarrian culture.
They do not believe in the rights and freedoms of anyone but themselves. You only have to read the recent article by Hardin, the CEO of Imperial Dreams and a spokesperson for CVA where he stated, "...one by one the other empires will accept our overtures or they too will fail." Their single goal is to impose their rule and their religion on the whole of Eden and anyone who stands in their way will be 'crushed'.
The Minmatar peoples have seen this evil first hand. We have thrown off their oppressive yoke and we will never cease the fight to see these expansionist and dictatorial tyrants thrown from power. When the Amarrian people show that they are fit to take their place in a civilised society alongside the other enlightened races we will finally end the fight against them. Unlike them we have no interest in domination or subjigation, we want peace and freedom for all.
Yesterday it was the fighters of the Ushra'Khan that stood in the way of the imperialist dreams of CVA and their allies. Today it is an ISS outpost that stands in the way of their domination of all space and all peoples in the name of their emperor and of their foul religion. Tomorrow will it be you that their eyes have settled upon? Based on the words of their own leaders they will be coming after you sooner or later. You can choose to live your life with their flag flying overhead, or you can fight.
Do not be deceived, this conflict is not about an outpost, or about interpretations. It is about the battle for survival between the Amarrians who would dominate and control all of us and those who would see us all live in peace side by side. You will have to pick a side eventually, make sure you do not leave it so late that your choice no longer has meaning.
If you too share our anger at the way the Amarrians dismiss the freedoms and rights of not only every other race but also large segments of their own people then join us in the fight to overthrow them and return peace, stability and freedom to all. You can find us at the Ushra'Khan communications portal.
Edited for grammar
Two things Hardin is not the CEO of Imperial Dreams that was a misprint (same with Reash being in Imperial Dreams in a news article). Secondly why should anyone pay attention to a bunch of a disorganised rabble of terrorists who are about as peaceful as rabid dogs and will turn on you at any time. -----------------------------------------------
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Christa Larne
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:06:00 -
[544]
Well, setting aside the standard Amarrian response of "if you don't have an answer just insult the person speaking and hope that if you do so loudly enough no-one will notice" I guess you could ask why should people listen to you?
In the historic past there were two great wars, both waged by an aggessor who wanted to take over the planet Earth in the name of 'order' and 'enlightenment'. The individuals and organisations who fought against that agressor, inside enemy territory and at great personal risk, were also branded as terrorists by the dictatorship that had stolen their countries and their birthright and enslaved their people. Now we look back and we call them freedom fighters.
We fight for the freedom and liberty of all - for the right of the many to choose not to live in a society controlled by Amarr, for their right not to live as slaves to your corrupt way of life. Ours is not the way of domination, of territory, of warfare and threats. Our way is to oppose injustice, brutality and intolerance - all those things that Hardin (whether CEO or not) stands for.
I note you did not bother to deny any of my statements above. I realise that this is because while you are too honourable to lie on these pages you are also afraid to announce your true character for fear that others may rise against you before you are ready for that killing strike against them.
I have made my position very clear, as I have done for yours. You may label me a terrorist if it suits your propaganda but that is a tactic you have tried too many times and for far too long. All Eden is beginning to see you as you are and no amount of careful clouding of the issue through verbal abuse and misdirection will stave off that day when all the nations finally realise that you are a clear and present danger to their safety and security. Perhaps it has come already, and this conflict is actually about more than outposts and territory. Perhaps the beginning of the end is in sight for you?
Perhaps that is why abuse is your only response - because fear has choked your throat and clouded your mind. Fear and the knowledge that the dream of your own infallibility is starting to crumble.
The Minmatar people lived in fear for a long time but we have thrown off that mantle. Now it is your turn to be afraid. The storm clouds are forming and the writing is on the wall. You may rattle your sabres and spout your propaganda, you may dismiss me and try to distract people from my words, but we both know that a strong wind is coming and that only those left standing at the end will decide who is called a terrorist and who a Freedom Fighter. -----------------------------------------------
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:43:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Christa Larne The storm clouds are forming and the writing is on the wall.
Are these the same storm clouds that we've been hearing about for nearly three years now?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:14:00 -
[546]
Archbishop, I am not one of the parties to the agreement and could not post it without the permission of both sides. However, the summary posted in this thread by the ISS is accurate. They took away an understanding which, while different from yours, they were quite sure about and saw no need to question.
Quite simple.
And I note your threats to anyone who does business dealings with the ISS as you claim that they are "hiding from war". If you spread the war that generally, then you will draw in other factions who they are affiliated with (and you drastically underestimate the number of those).
Gaven Lok'ri,
It is quite clearly a position statement. They were rejecting your interpretration of the origional agreement, and staking a negociating position. There were negociations ongoing which you broke off because you, in your arrogance, are basically not prepared to admit that your origional agreement was not carefully enough worded.
JF does not claim space. You do...and you are trying to claim space where there are no significant CVA assets operating. This is yet another reason that the ISS believed that they were perfectly entitled under the agreement to place POS in that system.
They asked. They got an answer. One system away from in not the same a "in". You did not ask for notification in the agreement. You're *****ing and whining because you did not make an agreement YOU could live with. That makes this war even more extraordinarily pointless.
As for "battlestations", in a region of disputed claims, I for one would certainly fortify a POS (if I were running one) in case of bad faith in negociations. Which you proved, and thus fortifying the POS was evidently the right descision. You are refusing to negociate, regarding a position statement as a last word, when no such exists. Would you have to comprimise? Certainly. That's your fault for setting up an agreement which was insufficient in the first place.
Sidyous, why would they accept an offer to place items, with no way of ensuring their return, in the hold of ships of an organisation not there own, let alone an organisation which has demonstrated bad faith?
Rodj Blake, do you really want to deny the war-that-is-to-come? There is indeed a war brewing. We have felt a cold war arrise, and then the red moon of war. Soon the Empires will again be fighting. This is not something a sensible pod pilot can discount.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:17:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Rodj Blake, do you really want to deny the war-that-is-to-come? There is indeed a war brewing. We have felt a cold war arrise, and then the red moon of war. Soon the Empires will again be fighting. This is not something a sensible pod pilot can discount.
Whilst international relations have been deteriorating over the last few months, it's far from certain that war is the final outcome.
But maybe that's my view as a peaceloving Amarrian rather than a Minmatar filled with bloodlust.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:22:00 -
[548]
I am a realist.
There are allready border skirmishes hotting up. Every sign points to war. There is no WILL on the part of the goverments to back down. Your own alliances statements inflame the situation.
War is a failure of diplomacy. And diplomacy is failing all arround us. I agree it's not logical to war, but logic has very little to do with the conflict between states.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.23 15:04:00 -
[549]
Quote: "Not content with CVA threatening and bullying ISS we now have PIE (Archbishop) threatening to extend this war to any and all civilian corps that they can link in any way to ISS. The true colours of the Amarrian race are finally being shown and perhaps now people will recognise the evil that is the Amarrian culture. "
Not at all but I'd expect no less than deception from a terrorist. First I've said clearly my concerns are as an ISS shareholder and are not the position or even questions of PIE or as an Amarrian. I'm an ISS shareholder and I have some concerns.
Quote: "So your saying "as well" that providence is only open to "True Amarrians" and all other races / corporations are not welcome ... this kinda sums up the CVA attitude.
Providence is only open for them .. and the rest is a smoke screen to hide their true greed."
Not at all Zooish. I'll point out that several other groups have POSs in Providence inside the CVA zone. Corporations committed to the enhancement of the region and are loyal to Amarr and the security and commerce the CVA have brought.
In fact this all revolves around one system. The CVA said they were going out TO 3kb-10 and everyone knows what "TO" means. The ISS recognzied this as proven by the fact they MOVED the POS stations the day before. So this isnt a matter of no agreement or not recognizing the claim. They DID recognize it as they did move those other POS stations.
As for the agreement I've seen ISS (and others like SF ) claim its vague and unclear. So post it and lets see. As we all know the evemail system doesn't have a "sent" folder where you can store the replies you send to people. Thus the agreement or recognition of it is in ISS hands. Why have they not published this then? Instead they claim its unclear while refusing to show anyone. Do they need time to forge a reply instead? It makes me very suspicious.
If the ISS hadn't moved those other POS's the day before I could even acccept why they're arguing there was no agreement or it was unclear. But the fact they moved them so quickly when CVA complained proves they did know about it and did recognize it.
Quote: "Archbishop, I am not one of the parties to the agreement and could not post it without the permission of both sides. However, the summary posted in this thread by the ISS is accurate. They took away an understanding which, while different from yours, they were quite sure about and saw no need to question."
Well if you can't post it I ask why you're here? Perhaps waiting until it is posted then speaking up when your point is proven would be a better alternative then jumping in where you have no stake in things and trying to stir the flames?
I'm concerned as an ISS shareholder. Certainly as my warship crews prepare to defend our Empire I'm concerned as an Admiral but as a man of God I have to believe He would not let this come to pass. I pray still for reconciliation and peace.
Quote: "There are allready border skirmishes hotting up. Every sign points to war. There is no WILL on the part of the goverments to back down. Your own alliances statements inflame the situation.
War is a failure of diplomacy. And diplomacy is failing all arround us. I agree it's not logical to war, but logic has very little to do with the conflict between states."
Again no one has answered my simple question. If the ISS did not recognize this as an agreement and didn't respect it why did they move the POS stations the day earlier? Using your arguments that it was vauge or not an agreement at all why didn't they then just say "no we're staying" then as well?
Why did they recognize it and respect it one day and not the next? Maybe the day they needed to call the MC? Or the day they needed to arm the new POSs even while they pretended to respect the agreement. They prepared for war while pretending peace.
Archbishop
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.23 15:08:00 -
[550]
Edited by: Archbishop on 23/04/2006 15:10:13
Quote: "And I note your threats to anyone who does business dealings with the ISS as you claim that they are "hiding from war". If you spread the war that generally, then you will draw in other factions who they are affiliated with (and you drastically underestimate the number of those)."
What threats? Im concerned as an ISS stockholder. I need to know as SPCS Director that the monthly dividends I receive to support SPCS shelters will continue to provide for our holy mission.
And I'm not talking about "business dealings". I'm talking about ISS members period. There are multiple groups that operate as full members of ISS in everything but corp membership registered with Concord officially. This method of hiding out of the formal alliance to limit themselves as a war target is well known to the entire universe. I merely fear for their safety as an ISS shareholder.
As for other "factions" affiliated with these corporations if they're not in an alliance which would those be? Perhaps you could provide a list and their real identities? Thats what your implying here after all is that some of these groups are really industrial "alt" corps for big bad alliance folks?
Maybe even the MC which would explain their contract?
Perhaps this to is a problem that needs to be addressed. Far to long have people been able to hide behind "alt" masks doing business as someone other then themselves. Perhaps its time to end that and bring them into the holy light of God and truth?
Archbishop
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.23 15:16:00 -
[551]
It would seem the ISS has made a gesture of peace and reconciliation. Therefore in the interests of peace I am going to refrain from speaking anymore on this matter.
I will spend the day in prayer asking that God guide the leaders of ISS and CVA and bring to the table a recociliation both can live with.
I will also pray that after this conflict the CVA and ISS build a working relationsihp in Providence and that one day we may even see them work together to battle the evils of piracy and terrorism that still appear from time to time in Providence.
Archbishop prays
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Agrikaan
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Posted - 2006.04.23 19:58:00 -
[552]
Hail and Amen to that!
I will also pray, gun holstered, for a beneficial solution.
*prays*
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