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Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct

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Mar vel Caldari H.Y.D.R.A. GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:59:00 - [721] For a guy who swore to never post, you sure do have a lot to say. IMO, you're behaving like an idiot b/c you read what people are saying and you don't understand what people are saying. Conflict of interest. Favoritism. Informational superiority. Goods and Services. Preferential Treatment. For a Development group who is focused on balance as a means of promoting a democratic, fair, level playing field, this pretty much nukes the theory (unless you apply the "only if it doesn't conflict with Rule #1) Rule #1 is I am a CCP Dev and therefore this game is my sandbox. I could care less about how what I do impacts the community and the title, and frankly, if all of you left tomorrow I would be rid of a big bag of whiners. I don't care if a Dev account is retired; they broke the rules (leaking identity) and that's the punishment (which they self imposed) - why should I feel badly about that? Given that they're just renamed anyway, it's hardly a collosal setback. And FYI, Pal, you alliance benefitted big-time -ANY capacity, goods, materials, informaiton, etc. that came out of those relationships gave you huge advantages over the competition. CCP: Want to make things better without getting repeatedly kicked in the balls? 1. Solve the issue with the T2 Marketplace. Break out the T2 BPO's onto the NPC market. Declared the whole system pointless, and re-engineer it starting with T3 BPO's from the ground up. Do it right this time. 2. Put a Dev in each alliance to ensure uniform participation. In the cases where smaller alliances exist, one dev can service multiple alliances. 3. Sanction some kind of equitible distribution of property to the alliances that DID NOT benefit from haveing multiple Devs in their structures. Then you have al least STARTED to repair the damage and made an equitable, fair, good faith effort to repairing the damage done. Or.... Continue to create an untrusting, undemocratic environment where you guys get to wear your conflict avoider hats and stack the deck in a player/corp/alliance's favor. Given that there are 20 total developers, it's hardly realistic to ask the community to believe that no trangressions have taken place, no advatages given, when 1/4 of your entire Dev staff is playing in BoB. ...and for those of you who think that these kinds of issues are random events, believe me when I tell you that they are not. This has been going on for a long, long time. It's just that CCP Devs finally got caught on a big one. Originally by: Ab Initio Originally by: Anonymous Coward Even when that developer is the manager of your capital ship program and has direct knowledge of your account-sharing cynonet? Apart from the fact that account sharing is a no no, I wouldnt care what position a Dev was playing on a standard account. People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named. Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.
NereSky Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:03:00 - [722] It just saddens me that a game i held in high regard hs slipped into this mire, CCCP had in my opinion a very high level of 1ntegrity and openess, now all that seems to have changed. i dont care if BoB contains Devs hell id be suprised if we all aren't some chess pieces on a gameboard in Iceland where the devs are all laughing at our expence. What i do care about is Eve and these allegations which have some foundation will start to become a cancer if left unchecked will destroy the game i and many others love and pay for the privilege to play. if there has been some inappropiate Dev help towards a player driven entity just say, if nothing is proved then again just say so , the satement i read had no real content and sounded like some political spin id expect from a politician on his back foot with something to hide.
Pravest Dall	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:04:00 - [723] If anybody should be banned - it's should be Goons and AAA for their shameless attempt to manipulate this non-event to try and weaken their enemies in the game. It's ironic that the biggest asshats and exploiters in eve should be screaming the loudest and at the same time demonstrate that their reading comprehension is zero and their logic deduction non-existent. To all the tin-foil hatters leaving - good riddance. To the devs, good luck in re-establishing your characters. PS. Not a bob alt, bob pet alt, bob fanboy, ect ... but you ****heads won't believe that anyway.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:04:00 - [724] Quote: A response from CCP about that would be nice to quiet things down though. Even if it's just 'We checked, and there is no unfair imbalance in bpos caused by out-of-game dev actions'. At this point, with CCP's behaviour up until now, I don't think anyone would believe them, even if it were true. When you look like you're trying to cover something up and then submit a statement saying that it was all OK, your credibility is already gone and you are not believable. CCP has let this get out of control. As far as all the BoB replies, I think you guys are being pretty dumb. You'd probably have been best served by being as quiet as possible and letting CCP carry the brunt of all this on their shoulders and have them deal with it. Instead, you keep defending it and keep yourselves in the forefront of the argument. This can lead to nothing other than the belief by many others that BoB and CCP are in collusion in this. This hurts both BoB and CCP and makes you both look even more guilty. But who cares what I have to say, anyway.
Cyberian Ragnos Minmatar Mercenaries of Andosia Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:04:00 - [725] Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos Quote: At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing. It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context. I don't like blind trust. It usually does not produce good results. We have several options besides this. One of them is making it as public as possible till they will be forced to do right. quit the game then Nope. I prefer to stay and make it go right. Thank you. When I see something I like going wrong I prefer to do everything I can to fix it instead of just giving up. You seem to prefer the trivial solution it seems. Well, to each his own.
Koto Rae Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:05:00 - [726] Originally by: kieron Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised. From what I have read,(and I have no personal knowledge of this), members of the corporations that had CCP employees as members sometimes knew they were CCP employees. I don't consider this "anonymity". Does CCP expect their employees to not have personal interests in the well being of the corporations they are in? Are CCP employees made of sterner stuff that they would not help friends out in game -- ever -- in any way ? Does CCP have recordings of the vent and ts conversations of all their employees and therefore know that no "insider information" was passed on ? The appearance of wrong doing is sometimes as bad as the act itself. I have no knowledge of any unfair advantage given to any corp or alliance. However, a lot of people go by the old adage "where there is smoke, there is fire". I see an awful lot of smoke here. Eve is a great game, I don't see why CCP employees should not be able to play. But the restrictions on their accounts to curtail any hint of favoritism should be very strong, such as not being a corp officer or director, having to change corps on a regular basis, not being eligable for T2 BPO's and not being able to ever respond to a petition for a corpmate or former corpmate. I am sure there are other things also, but the main thing is to prevent any hint of favoritism.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:06:00 - [727] Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos Quote: At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing. It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context. I don't like blind trust. It usually does not produce good results. We have several options besides this. One of them is making it as public as possible till they will be forced to do right. quit the game then Nope. I prefer to stay and make it go right. Thank you. When I see something I like going wrong I prefer to do everything I can to fix it instead of just giving up. You seem to prefer the trivial solution it seems. Well, to each his own. You aren't making right lol. You're joining the rest of the tinfoil bandwagon to try and come up with excuses to why you're organization is innept. So if you want to make right then just quit the game Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Virtuozzo eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:06:00 - [728] Originally by: Herculite Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal. The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated). Read my words before they are censored and removed. You forget nameless alt, I know what ASCN did because I had forum access. Gunga mailed ISD if such information was appropriate for the forums and they said no. This happened to be just prior to the first BoB forum hack. Its really a moot point though, ASCN might as well have had a link to their private forums open on the EvE page for all the 'privacy' they had. You're leaving something out, the petitions on the matters were never addressed beyond that point. No action resulted from it. But yes, the whole of EVE had access. Question now is from Kieron's message and CCP's decisions and actions thusfar is if these have set a precedent which does bear consequences in game in the future. Virtuozzo RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"
Aarin Wrath	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:08:00 - [729] This is my first time hearing about this. This has made shacknews: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/45646 and bluesnews: http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=75215 I wouldn't be surprised if slashdot and digg pick it up soon. As for me, I am not certain I will renew my subscription after this. People harp about nanoships or nos or and and all exploits all the time. Yet here we have actual Dev cheating. I think my money could be spent better else where. No you cant have my stuff.
Seviere	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:08:00 - [730] I'm sorry to say i saw this coming for a long time. I'm not even in one alliance and i saw this coming for a long time. Don't you read EVE Tribune? Don't you read Corporation, Alliance and Organization Discussions forum? Why is it that every single war that BoB enters is filled with acusations of Dev's and GM's interfearance? Does that happen with other alliance wars? No it doesn't. It's BPO's being offered, it's story arcs being disclosed, it's alliance tournaments, it's acusations about ISD, it's EVE-TV (SJ remember him?), it's the ban stick being thrown in a dubius fashion... Why, oh why do devs play the game on TQ? You wanna see if there is lag? Just jump into a uber dev ship and go wacth it with your uber cloak modules. You wanna test ships? Go to SISI for god sake. And the BoB's commitement to this thread is just amazing. And how many BoB posts have been censured? None. And you see the censure bat everywhere in this thread. This just makes me sick P.S. Wich i could post with my main but i just can't seem to update my subscription

Susan Acid Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:10:00 - [731] Originally by: Abriana Overlord Bottom line here is the "mob mentality" BoB makes an excellent target why would that be? Because,in effect,you were the catalyst for all this when you decided to copy and paste ASCN forums and CCP allowed it.You sensationalised it and wallowed in the attention it brought you.Which is exactly what Kugu is doing to you.You showed him how much attention he could get and he sought his own means to gain infamy.I'm sorry but you really have brought this upon yourselfs and, although hacking is illegal, I have no sympathy.
Cyberian Ragnos Minmatar Mercenaries of Andosia Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:10:00 - [732] Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos Quote: At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing. It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context. I don't like blind trust. It usually does not produce good results. We have several options besides this. One of them is making it as public as possible till they will be forced to do right. quit the game then Nope. I prefer to stay and make it go right. Thank you. When I see something I like going wrong I prefer to do everything I can to fix it instead of just giving up. You seem to prefer the trivial solution it seems. Well, to each his own. You aren't making right lol. You're joining the rest of the tinfoil bandwagon to try and come up with excuses to why you're organization is innept. So if you want to make right then just quit the game In your distorted opinion it may be this way. If you look my post I never ever talked about BoB or any player. I couldn't care less about them. They are players. But I do care about Devs and GMs misconduct. I do not contend that BoB is efficient and achieved its position by excellence. And as I told you in the previous paragraph I do not care about it either. I do not wish to see BoB punished. I want to see the Devs / GMs who misused their right punished in order to avoid future reincidence of this case. I also want to see the person who was arbitrarily punished for revealing the stuff who needed to be revealed reinstated in the game.
Jacob Majestic GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:11:00 - [733] Originally by: Pravest Dall If anybody should be banned - it's should be Goons and AAA for their shameless attempt to manipulate this non-event to try and weaken their enemies in the game. It's ironic that the biggest asshats and exploiters in eve should be screaming the loudest and at the same time demonstrate that their reading comprehension is zero and their logic deduction non-existent. To all the tin-foil hatters leaving - good riddance. To the devs, good luck in re-establishing your characters. PS. Not a bob alt, bob pet alt, bob fanboy, ect ... but you ****heads won't believe that anyway. I'm going to keep posting this until people read it and understand it. I agree that many of the people who are squaking the loudest (Goonswarm, among others) might be construed to have a conflict of interest. However, good people can do bad things. For someone in t20's position, a little temporary impropriety can have long-lasting in-game effects. If kieron had conducted the investigation and reported the results transparently, I wouldn't be as frustrated as I am. However, kieron has shown no interest in transparency. His statement is instead a declaration that CCP intends to sweep this episode under the rug. This is why I feel this scandal has effects that transcend in-game political affiliation. The sociopolitical fabric of the game depends fundamentally on the concept that in-game assets are acquired fairly. (Think about what would happen to mineral markets if someone found a way to dupe Megacyte, or what would happen to T2 markets if someone found a way to run reactions in station rather than in a POS.) The mere appearance of impropriety on t20's part is a direct attack on this fundamental assumption. Mind you, this is the effect of the mere appearance of impropriety. If any actual improper actions took place as alleged the sociopolitical and economic consequences are profound. This is why I'm squawking.
Prydeless Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:15:00 - [734] Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts...
Cupdeez Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:18:00 - [735] Edited by: Cupdeez on 07/02/2007 22:19:22 Edited by: Cupdeez on 07/02/2007 22:16:25 I see all these BOB players posting in this topic but for all the people that saw the chat logs. I think will be like hmm... BOB players lost any credibility for the following reasons 1. 6 CCP employees were in RKK (prob going to rejoin in a week) 2. BOB prob has even more CCP employees in BOB 3. Internal investigation on your self GOOD JOB The only people who got banned was the guy who posted BOB's killboard information (himself and a fellow employee). Good way to cover up the problem ban the person. The CCP players have been removed...Right more like renamed and history erased. Account still active and going to rejoin another BOB corp in a few weeks YAY!! Time to start looking for a new game that I can drop 4g's a year. Thanks for DELETING MY 1st post.. Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip
Ar'tee DarkStar 1	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:18:00 - [736] Originally by: Aarin Wrath This has made shacknews: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/45646 and bluesnews: http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=75215 I wouldn't be surprised if slashdot and digg pick it up soon. Say what? They already did!
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:21:00 - [737] Originally by: Prydeless Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts... Certainly 23 pages is sweeping it under the carpet! _______________________________________________
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:21:00 - [738] Originally by: Sentinel Eeex Originally by: Razor Jaxx Originally by: Sentinel Eeex I bet investigation took 30 minutes, and it took 2 weeks to write this "report" on investigation. Good job on writing report that says nothing, and avoids answering any real questions. I think all parties agree that the OP is lacking, in clarity and finality. Blah, blah, blah. Are you Kieron? If not... noone was asking you anything. Thanks. If I were, you think I'd tell you? After all this? HA! Think again!
Galea Wildfang Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:22:00 - [739] What a riot. I for myself don't want someone to be hung, cruzified or some such nonsense. I want a statement assuring, that there will be rules for how to conduct as a volunteer, GM or Dev when playing the game or when doing the stuff you ought to do, and them being enforced very strictly. Leaking informations out is for sure the fastest thing to break this game. All I want is a real attempt to make this game level and fair to everyone. And by that I mean every CCP employee should play this game very closely by the rules. The moment you just enter a slightly gray area, you make yourself a target for the riot. No question, as a Dev a person has more knowledge of how things work, of changes to come, and can (if he choses so) get ready to it before anyone else can. For example the t2 lotto. Sure the worst idea CCP ever had, but we're living with that. I don't believe the BPO's in question were made out of thin air for a moment. But I do believe the person had alot of more knowledge about how things will work, how fast BPO's will be destributed, in which fields are less people researching than in other fields, etc. No clue if that went into any of his decisions made regarding research, but if you want to rebuild the trust in CCP, you need to be strict about that. By accepting the BPO's and hand them over to the Alliance you happen to belong to, you made yourself questionable as well as your loyality. I expect a Dev to be beyond that. Play the game, make friends, make sure your cover doesn't get busted and don't hand over valuable assets or leak informations no one else should have, and I think no one would have real trouble with you playing your game. As for Kieron's post. It would be nice to have every point taken and adressed them one by one, like the following (that's just an example of how it could be done in general, I do not try to make up any punishments) - DB Preacher There hasn't been any evidence of him buying a character for out of game currencies or any other violation of the EULA - SirMolle Has violated the EULA by posting RL Information about another gamer. He edited his post short after to remove said information. This will result in a temporary ban. Any further posting of RL informations about another player will result in permanent bans, not only for SirMolle - Kugu..... Gets his accounts permanently banned for releasing RL informations of a CCP employee. - RKK BPO's Those that our Dev handed over to them will be deleted and relotto'ed. Same goes for any other T2 BPO that was aquired by a Dev or GM unless they got sold (for a reasonable amount) or auctioned. This is to ensure the same rules apply to everyone. We're aware that this will potentielly bust more GM's or Dev's but it can't be avoided if we try to be fair. This is just how I would close this issue, but I'm no Dev, GM, not even a volunteer. Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !
BlackTalon	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:22:00 - [740] is it good idea to have dev playing at all they should just be testing stuff on the test server

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:25:00 - [741] And the playing the victim, which is what BoB is doing here 'ooh, everybody hates us cause we're the best' is really transparent as well. Almost everybody hated RA a while back, yet funnily enough noone ever accused them of being Developers, even though they got away with some illegal stuff according to some. Why of all the accusations, does this one always come back to BoB and noone else? Never saw anyone accuse Burn Eden of being developers, did you? Universally hated, but no accusations of being developers. Only BoB... -------------- In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.
B4NK	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:26:00 - [742] The accounts havent been deleted and the characters STILL exist on TQ. as to 5 char's being named if you look closely then its all 1 player. regardless of the BPO issue its the second KNOWN problem with a Dev and for me personally im ashamed of the game.
Berious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:27:00 - [743] Originally by: Cabadrin Originally by: Prydeless Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts... Certainly 23 pages is sweeping it under the carpet! Yeah but this forum has probably seen a month's worth of traffic today.
Kldraina	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:27:00 - [744] Edited by: Kldraina on 07/02/2007 22:24:15 I think it is sad how many seem to think the devs shouldn't be playing EVE. If they don't play the game, how can they know what in it is good, and what is bad? I know from experience, that the only way to understand EVE is to play it, and the devs must understand EVE in order to make informed, intelligent decisions about it's design. P.S. I wonder how much of this public smearing of CCP is actually an attempt to coerce CCP into taking action against BoB. Conspiracies can go both ways ya'know.
Virtuozzo eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:28:00 - [745] Originally by: Cabadrin Originally by: Prydeless Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts... Certainly 23 pages is sweeping it under the carpet! Lol, let's keep it at 23 :P With the amount of crap postings deleted it should be possible to keep it under control. Virtuozzo RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"
Jacob Majestic GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:31:00 - [746] Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 22:28:32 Originally by: Galea Wildfang - DB Preacher There hasn't been any evidence of him buying a character for out of game currencies or any other violation of the EULA - SirMolle Has violated the EULA by posting RL Information about another gamer. He edited his post short after to remove said information. This will result in a temporary ban. Any further posting of RL informations about another player will result in permanent bans, not only for SirMolle - Kugu..... Gets his accounts permanently banned for releasing RL informations of a CCP employee. The only problem with making a list of people to ban is that the EULA is quite nebulous. For example, the EULA is not a legal document, it is an EULA violation to "break laws," whatever that means. As another example, if the allegations are true that t20 directly oversaw RKK's capital operations, he would be privy to intimate knowledge of massive account sharing. Take a second and study the EULA. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find a way to get banned. This makes it even more important that we be able to trust that CCP devs and GMs will adjucate the rules fairly. For example, when you petition you trust that the GMs that read your petition will decide your petition in a clear and consistent manner. Kieron's lack of transparency makes me wonder if CCP's culture is changing for the worse. -dbp edit Not enough carriage returns.
Virtuozzo eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:33:00 - [747] Originally by: Malachon Draco Never saw anyone accuse Burn Eden of being developers ..... You really have to stop doing that Malachon, I need to keep breathing ... :P Virtuozzo RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"
Rodney Caston Messerschmitt Shipyards Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:34:00 - [748] Edited by: Rodney Caston on 07/02/2007 22:32:39 Originally by: BlackTalon is it good idea to have dev playing at all they should just be testing stuff on the test server With that statement alone, I can only assume you've never worked in a Dev/QA/Production environment.
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:37:00 - [749] How does deleting the dev characters help in the slightest? In one of the posts by the dev player quoted in Mr. K's blog, the dev says that even though he's got to pull his character out of RKK, he'll still be on MSN, IRC and the Forums, and that he is "still RKK," just "a bit inactive atm". CCP's response is a total joke--what rules do they have in place to ensure that favoritism doesn't continue with their new characters? When this whole issue started I doubted that any actual impropriety had occurred, but CCP has thoroughly botched the announcement about the results of their investigation. They haven't bothered to deny key allegations, have given us platitudes and generalities, and try to make us feel guilty that devs had their characters deleted. BooHoo!
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:37:00 - [750] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: Malachon Draco Never saw anyone accuse Burn Eden of being developers ..... You really have to stop doing that Malachon, I need to keep breathing ... :P Stop following me! I know you're nervous cause I am getting close to the number of alts you have, but thats no reason for stalking -------------- In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.



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