Originally by: Anila's Delight

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Second! FIRST

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Originally by: JForce

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If someone was to take the time to formalise them in a coherent set of statements/questions, would you investigate those? And if so, would you like those sent to you or posted here?

I guess what I'm saying is that did you merely conduct a broad enquiry based on the presence of information, or on the specifics of each piece of info? Did anyone email/post/petition anything specific? Or did you guys just see the stuff and start looking into it?

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Originally by: Sausage Commandos

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A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

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Originally by: Laendra

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It's a God Damned shame that a couple of *******s feel the need to try and ruin the game for others. That goes for people revealing CCP characters to others, and to CCP employees, if allegations are true (I hope it isn't), cheating.

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Originally by: Sausage Commandos

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A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

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Originally by: JForce

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From Kieron's post I'd say the investigation is over. This is not an "update", it's a "we're done and found nothing, but are removing these characters as people now know they're devs".

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Originally by: mazzilliu

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ANd what about kugutsumen's(and related accounts, and his coworker's IRL) banning?

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Originally by: JForce

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Originally by: mazzilliu

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ANd what about kugutsumen's(and related accounts, and his coworker's IRL) banning?

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That's actually a good point. He seems to have been banned without violating any real rules, while others who have broken rules are left alone.

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Originally by: Iraf Thaiberd

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To say the least.

1) It's been less than a year and a free mothership from what was admittedly a compromised event remains in game.
2) "We've been caught so the specific people caught will have those specific characters removed, but everything else is fine and don't worry we're policing ourselves absolutely correctly. Devs participating at the highest levels of PvP alliances is fine and dandy and obviously no inappropriate advantage is gained therein, no matter how tangentially."

This is a whitewash of Nixonian proportions, and an insult to the general player base. I shudder to think how many people I have encouraged to play this great game will chose to not do so when they realize the playing field is anything but level.

I'm going to eat a corp fine to post this, and I don't care, because this is simply unacceptable.

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Originally by: JForce

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CCP have not nor will not discuss GM decisions with third parties - Cortes

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Originally by: Sausage Commandos

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A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

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Originally by: mazzilliu

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CCP have not nor will not discuss GM decisions with third parties - Cortes

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Originally by: Merciless1

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Originally by: JForce

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CCP have not nor will not discuss GM decisions with third parties - Cortes

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It's begging to seem like CCP won't discuss anything with anyone.

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Originally by: Cringeley

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Now I'm just waiting to see if devs take in-game reprisals against those who brought the issue to public attention.

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Originally by: Kyoko Achura

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Not fired over this and that alliance still keeps all the t2 bpo's and all the isk made off this.... This is a great game, but its run like crap, I am canceling all my accounts and taking my 90 bucks a month to a different game that is Fair to all its player base.

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Originally by: kieron

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CCP is very passionate about EVE Online and is committed to its continued growth. We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

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Originally by: Roland 99

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No one will defeat BOB with this sickening amount of dev intervention(AKA unexplained lag, sploits, and all that rubbish).

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Originally by: Roland 99

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Edited by: Roland 99 on 07/02/2007 06:07:56
Problems I have with this:

1. no names were admitted as to the characters involved. This should have been a public execution of the people who knowingly screwed honest eve players.
2. no assurance given that BOB will no longer have access to privilaged information
3. removing the seemingly limited number of characters alluded to will not keep the afortamentioned info out of BOB hands
4. No action alluded to or taken to remove all the T2 BPO's BOB received via GM intervention and/or hacks and exploits
5. such as no access to Tranquility or special flagging on a developerÆs player character -- would greatly hinder the development of EVE.
THIS IS BULLCRAP AND WILL ALLOW THIS ACTIVITY TO CONTINUE
6. WHY THE HELL WERE THESE PEOPLE NOT FIRED??!!
7. like an american political candidate, what they said was designed to enrage the fewest number of people and will result in virtually zero constructive action
8. They got away with it and will continue to do so. No one will defeat BOB with this sickening amount of dev intervention(AKA unexplained lag, sploits, and all that rubbish). I am seriously considering removing my eve account due to the fact that no one has or will ever have a level playing field.

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Originally by: Kyoko Achura

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Not fired over this and that alliance still keeps all the t2 bpo's and all the isk made off this.... This is a great game, but its run like crap, I am canceling all my accounts and taking my 90 bucks a month to a different game that is Fair to all its player base.

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Originally by: Milano II

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I agree with the posts here so far, almost all of them, except for the one at the end of page 1 by the gentleman from GoonSwarm. I agree with HIS post. THE MOST.

You've told us all that there was some stuff found in the path of the investigations.
And you've removed a bunch of characters... well, no numbers given, so that could mean 2 characters for all we know. Yet, all you're doing is renaming or moving characters... this isn't a preventive measure at any means.. this is just a slap on the wrist kind of thing, stating to the offenders "Do it again.. but more quietly".

The T2 BPOs? We all know one famous alliance has almost all of them, mostly dev-created/hax0red/handed-out or whatever- because afterall... they're not the carebears they try to come across as.... they dont do agent missions that often to get these things from the faulty lottery system that has been set up anyway.

And..... yes.. prevention is what I'm whole-heartedly interested in.. Prevention. No one has said what'll be done to PREVENT this. All you've said here is that, or hinted to, is that you have a system in place to investigate these matters. INVESTIGATION-- happens AFTER the FACT. Not BEFORE.

May have to cancel my accounts as well, unless we're given some better answer. I'd rather have NO answer, than THIS vague, vague, vague answer.

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Quote:

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Would you like your bosses to proclaim to the community that you were fired for a gross breach of trust?

Also CCP policy is not to disscuss GM action (IIRC), why should they make an exception to this? Because the some in the comunity ask for it? Where does it end?

Why should they say which characters were involved? That reads a breach of trust to me?

Everyone has their reasons, you dont agree with CCP's reasons for not reavealing their actions, that is your problem. I agree with them not disclosing their actions, as to do so would breach all trust in CCP

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Originally by: La Tortura

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Edited by: La Tortura on 07/02/2007 06:20:55
I think CCP just dont understand all the seriousness of the problem. You think that you still can save your reputation, right?
It is too late to save reputation after all the things happened recently. Public opinion is against you. Now the only thing you can do is regain reputation.

And to get it back you should show to the community that you _actively_ trying to stop all cases of misconduct, and to reveal names and punish those who even remotely related to cases of such misconduct. You shouldn't ask for concerns to forvard to you. What you should do is to find yourself cases that werent known to community before your anouncement and present them to community.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Stop threatening to cancel your accounts and do it already. The rest of the community would be better off without your input.

EDIT: Quoted text dissapeared.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Stop threatening to cancel your accounts and do it already. The rest of the community would be better off without your input.

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Quote:

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But again, on the user end will need to understand this, dev-player accounts are no similar than any other player accounts, if the dev-player got the bpo through the T2 lottery system, there should not be any arguement to force CCP to withdraw the T2 bpo. Its rightfully belongs to the dev-player and its up to the dev-player to decide what to do with it.

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Originally by: kieron

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I will leave this thread open for discussion. Please keep comments and replies on topic and constructive.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Stop threatening to cancel your accounts and do it already. The rest of the community would be better off without your input.

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Originally by: Borgholio

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Nobody really cares about an event that took place months ago. People care about rampant cheating by those whose job it is to STOP cheating. By conveniently ignoring this issue, you are only reinforcing the belief that CCP has something to hide.

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Originally by: Anonymous Coward

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Originally by: Borgholio

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Nobody really cares about an event that took place months ago. People care about rampant cheating by those whose job it is to STOP cheating. By conveniently ignoring this issue, you are only reinforcing the belief that CCP has something to hide.

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Actually, that event involved an Aurora leak apparently and so it most definitely did involve cheating.

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Originally by: Roland 99

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Quote:

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Would you like your bosses to proclaim to the community that you were fired for a gross breach of trust?

Also CCP policy is not to disscuss GM action (IIRC), why should they make an exception to this? Because the some in the comunity ask for it? Where does it end?

Why should they say which characters were involved? That reads a breach of trust to me?

Everyone has their reasons, you dont agree with CCP's reasons for not reavealing their actions, that is your problem. I agree with them not disclosing their actions, as to do so would breach all trust in CCP

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bosses do typically admit the who involved with a major scandal that threatens the very foundation of what your organization stands for as a deterrent for future activity.

If they dont admit, it is usually pretty easy to tell who did it when they suddenly go missing.

I am sorry if my feelings on the matter have offended you, but sometimes, a more public resolution is necessary when he very legal (read devs) foundation of a system has been heavily compromised by corruption

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Originally by: Marketing Executive

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Take for example - Company ABC runs 2mil lottery everymonth, and there's 2mil tickets place on pools to be drawn at later date, the company then pass on bout 100 tix for their employee to see if they themself have the luck. One of them won, does that mean the company abc will say "u're staff of company abc... we can't give u 2mil"? Put that on everyone's shoes and think bout it.

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Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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hm... are there People here, who actually take the possibility into consideration, that maybe ... just MAYBE there were no T2 BPOs given out to BOB by any DEV GM or whatever?

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Originally by: Anila's Delight

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Originally by: Roland 99

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Quote:

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Would you like your bosses to proclaim to the community that you were fired for a gross breach of trust?

Also CCP policy is not to disscuss GM action (IIRC), why should they make an exception to this? Because the some in the comunity ask for it? Where does it end?

Why should they say which characters were involved? That reads a breach of trust to me?

Everyone has their reasons, you dont agree with CCP's reasons for not reavealing their actions, that is your problem. I agree with them not disclosing their actions, as to do so would breach all trust in CCP

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bosses do typically admit the who involved with a major scandal that threatens the very foundation of what your organization stands for as a deterrent for future activity.

If they dont admit, it is usually pretty easy to tell who did it when they suddenly go missing.

I am sorry if my feelings on the matter have offended you, but sometimes, a more public resolution is necessary when he very legal (read devs) foundation of a system has been heavily compromised by corruption

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I agree that bosses do generally admit who was involved with a scandle, but this isn't a general situation. As CCP do not disscuss GM action normally, i would expect them to to keep quiet what they have done as it builds trust in the system that they have in place, no matter what the cercumstances, ccp stand by their privacy policy. Most large companies enforces policy quite harshley and no one is spared, as CCP have a non-discussion policy they are not doing anything that i wouldnt expect from another company.

No offence taken here, i am just trying to have a discussion on this topic (something that is rare on these boards) before the thread is locked from flaming and trolling. No offence intended to anyone here.

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Originally by: Sausage Commandos

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A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

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Originally by: manimani

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Originally by: kieron

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I will leave this thread open for discussion. Please keep comments and replies on topic and constructive.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Stop threatening to cancel your accounts and do it already. The rest of the community would be better off without your input.

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Although he talked about canceling his account, Milano II offered some of his own views on the topic.
While you just came in here offering nothing constructive, i hate to do this backseat moderating job, but please stay on topic, Ab Initio.

CCP, needs to let us know more, what did the developer do within said alliance? What did he do that his character to be removed from the game? Why wasn't the damage to the game done by the developer reversed?

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Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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hm... are there People here, who actually take the possibility into consideration, that maybe ... just MAYBE there were no T2 BPOs given out to BOB by any DEV GM or whatever?

Dunno ... maybe its just easier to think that whatever someone random posts on EVE-O against bob must be true cause you dont like bob either...

Where did Kieron say, that whatever was found even has something to do with BOB or any other Alliance for that matter?

thats all i gotta say about this

--MOL

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/02/2007 06:42:35

Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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hm... are there People here, who actually take the possibility into consideration, that maybe ... just MAYBE there were no T2 BPOs given out to BOB by any DEV GM or whatever?

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Perhaps he should've mentioned that in his post.

Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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Where did Kieron say, that whatever was found even has something to do with BOB or any other Alliance for that matter?

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That's just it. He didn't really say a whole lot of anything.

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Originally by: Sausage Commandos

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A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

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Quote:

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All that has been accomplished here, is the destruction of legitimate accounts, because they were publicly outed as working for CCP. Congratulations.

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Originally by: Roland 99

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Quote:

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All that has been accomplished here, is the destruction of legitimate accounts, because they were publicly outed as working for CCP. Congratulations.

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Quite the inflamatory admission there. Not assuming anything, or anything but wow. It was admitted right here that it, in fact, was BOB accounts removed due to this little situation.

/emote Grabs popcorn and a beer

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Originally by: kieron

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Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Originally by: Roland 99

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Quote:

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All that has been accomplished here, is the destruction of legitimate accounts, because they were publicly outed as working for CCP. Congratulations.

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Quite the inflamatory admission there. Not assuming anything, or anything but wow. It was admitted right here that it, in fact, was BOB accounts removed due to this little situation.

/emote Grabs popcorn and a beer

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Or, you could actually read the OP.

Originally by: kieron

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Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

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Quote:

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Areas of investigation include, but are not limited to: messaging history, financial and transactional history, combat and corporation logs, item and cash transfers and IP logs.

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Originally by: Anila's Delight

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Quote:

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Areas of investigation include, but are not limited to: messaging history, financial and transactional history, combat and corporation logs, item and cash transfers and IP logs.

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That is ALOT of data to go though for those that the allegations were raised against. Think of how many market transactions you make in a day, combat logs you make, items and cash transfered.

I can't see anywhere in keirons post that he said that they have concluded the investigation.

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Originally by: Roland 99

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get mollee in here. Your grasp of propanagda is quite lacking.

-out

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Originally by: Steve Nash

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Edited by: Steve Nash on 07/02/2007 06:59:41

Originally by: Anila's Delight

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Quote:

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Areas of investigation include, but are not limited to: messaging history, financial and transactional history, combat and corporation logs, item and cash transfers and IP logs.

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That is ALOT of data to go though for those that the allegations were raised against. Think of how many market transactions you make in a day, combat logs you make, items and cash transfered.

I can't see anywhere in keirons post that he said that they have concluded the investigation.

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"I apologize for the length of time the investigation has taken. A statement has been made, you may view it by clicking..."

That to me implies that "the investigation is over here is a link to the conclusion."

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Originally by: kieron

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We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

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Originally by: Sausage Commandos

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A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

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Originally by: Evelgrivion

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1. Is the investigation over?
2. If so, has it been determined whether or not the alleged parties have acted inappropriately?
3. If so, have the alleged parties been punished for their inappropriate actions?

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Originally by: Roland 99

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get mollee in here. Your grasp of propanagda is quite lacking.

-out

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You aren't dealing with someone who is trying to put forward "propaganda". You are dealing with someone who is honestly disgusted by the reaction of a large part of the community.

* This IS a subject that needs discussing.
* This post from CCP IS useless.

My problem is with the people that are using a situation which should be dealt with appropriately, as a launching platform for your in game issues. I have no problem with those that put forward their opinions, without all the random haxsploiting BS.

Your posts are pathetic. You're trying to score forum whoring points, while it is apparent from the OP, that veterans are losing there accounts due only to being outed by a hacker.

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Originally by: Merciless1

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Originally by: kieron

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We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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You aren't dealing with someone who is trying to put forward "propaganda". You are dealing with someone who is honestly disgusted by the reaction of a large part of the community.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Stop threatening to cancel your accounts and do it already. The rest of the community would be better off without your input.

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Quote:

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Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?

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Quote:

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jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag

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Originally by: Anonymous Coward

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Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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hm... are there People here, who actually take the possibility into consideration, that maybe ... just MAYBE there were no T2 BPOs given out to BOB by any DEV GM or whatever?

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There were many more issues than just T2 BPOs here, however they seem to all be equally brushed aside by CCP with such a non-answer.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Originally by: manimani

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Originally by: kieron

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I will leave this thread open for discussion. Please keep comments and replies on topic and constructive.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Stop threatening to cancel your accounts and do it already. The rest of the community would be better off without your input.

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Although he talked about canceling his account, Milano II offered some of his own views on the topic.
While you just came in here offering nothing constructive, i hate to do this backseat moderating job, but please stay on topic, Ab Initio.

CCP, needs to let us know more, what did the developer do within said alliance? What did he do that his character to be removed from the game? Why wasn't the damage to the game done by the developer reversed?

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I've written pages on the topic, but common sense get thrown out the door when it comes to a good witch hunt.

All that has been accomplished here, is the destruction of legitimate accounts, because they were publicly outed as working for CCP. Congratulations.

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Originally by: Anila's Delight

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Originally by: Merciless1

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Originally by: kieron

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We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

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That says to me that CCP have released their official statement and they are not going to discuss any future action taken.

The whole BoB are devs thing has sounded like a conspiracy against a greater PvP force from day one to me.

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Originally by: Sausage Commandos

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A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

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Originally by: Merciless1

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Originally by: Anila's Delight

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Originally by: Merciless1

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Originally by: kieron

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We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

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That says to me that CCP have released their official statement and they are not going to discuss any future action taken.

The whole BoB are devs thing has sounded like a conspiracy against a greater PvP force from day one to me.

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As I said previously, when a GM spawned a faction fitted rattlesnake the investigation and actions taken where made clear to the players. This sin't your normal "We dn't discuss GM actions" situation. When rules are broken on this level there is much more community interest, this is because it may have a signifigant effect on the community. This isn't about BoB or alliance politics, this is about senior CCP employees influencing the game. More importantly, releasing vague statments only adds fuel to the fire, so either be open and honest or expect the situation to get worse.

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Originally by: Anila's Delight

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I am inclined to agree with the BoB forum professionals (gah!) on this one, bob have been branded as guilty before any eveidence has been presented to the comunity (which i dont think it will), because these kinds of allegations have been flying around for a while now.

Everyone who has posted anti-bob and bob=dev in this thread are taking the word of a known hacker (by his own admission) without proof to the contrary. Sounds like slandering a superier PvP force to me.

Sore loosers anyone?

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Originally by: Skelator

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Fair enough Statement.
Now hear my counterstatement/question.

What PROOF do you have Sir that there Weren't Witches found and not named or that there was a mass coverup OR That there weren't T-II BPO's found and not mentioned?

See the dilemma in your statement.

These folks just want a Real Itemized answer to the Dozen PLUS Charges nothing more nothing less.
As paying customers like yourself they are just seeking reassurance like we all are.
If Paying folks are worried about this please refrain from smacking them.

Skelator

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Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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Hm... i still think that only ONE answer would be accepted here, and im fairly shure that is also why no CCP employee reall posted anything about the cheating ****.

Whatever Kieron would say, the only answer that most in here would accept, is that when he would say "yes we have found Dev Characters within BOB who cheated for them".

None other. He could say that there was nothing found, that BOB didnt do anything wrong or whatever. Only that one answer would be accepted. Everything else would be taken as an attempt to cover something up. Wich makes it pretty pointless to post anything.

--MOL

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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I said I wouldn't post again, but this is a fair enough point to respond to. I do understand your point of view, but you also need to understand ours.

On one side we have those that have decided to wait for real proof before crucifying us for our alleged trangressions. Innocent until proven guilty. On the other side, we have the hate mongerers that we generally have a history with ingame, who have decided we need to burn no matter what the outcome of the investigation.

You're asking what proof we have that we are innocent, again, guilty until proven innocent. Now due to completely unproven allegations by some random lowlife, and the inability for CCP to make a clear statement about the matter, we won't ever be vindicated. You think you're annoyed about one BoB member getting frustrated, try having a community burning your alliance at the stake because of unproven allegations towards < 5 members.

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Originally by: kieron

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Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

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Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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So we are guilty until prooven otherwise...

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Originally by: Adam C

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Originally by: kieron

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Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

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Really sorry to read that

One of the saddest tings I have ever read, in these forums.


How will the developers recoup their gaming experience?
Start a new character?
Thats really bad considering eve has been going on for 3yrs. That means not really any developers in Capital Ships / Titans or any of them really able to participate to some of the advanced forms of gameplay in EVE.

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Originally by: Sinze

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Originally by: MessiahOfLight

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So we are guilty until prooven otherwise...

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There was some pretty damning evidence produced in relation to BoB getting T2 BPOs. The whole reason this entire investigation started is because people had read the evidence presented and gone "WTF", wanting CCP investigate it. We want to know what the outcome of that evidence was, and if it was verified, if things changed, or if anything happened. People just don't like vague statements that have no content and don't actually answer or address any of the things people wanted this investigation to take place for.

I think I speak for most of us when we say that it isn't BoB we're being angry about, it's the devs, and we'd like a proper response towards that. Nobody is holding every Band Of Brothers member accountable for what some director and some dev did. We just want to know SOMETHING.

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Originally by: Steve Nash

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So you would be ok with a developer as a Titan pilot for an alliance? You see no conflict of interest there? This is not a flame.

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Originally by: Sigmorhair

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The best part about this thread as it develops is the same Bob pets and alts are lining up to claim everything is fine with cheating while virtually everyone else is unhappy.

That alone is pretty damning.

Just got back from closing all my accounts. And I know I am far from the only one. I guess when CCP feels it in the pocket, they may finally take the Bob/Dev cheating seriously. But it will probably be way too late by then.

Grats Cheaters.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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No. I don't view a developer using a standard account, any differently to anyone else using a standard account. The only thing I see as being a possible problem is a superior understanding of game mechanics, and tbh I think there are people in the community who know more than the devs :P

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Originally by: jamesw

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Devs are people too

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Originally by: Anonymous Coward

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Even when that developer is the manager of your capital ship program and has direct knowledge of your account-sharing cynonet?

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Originally by: Sinlare

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Indeed, grats to all paranoid whiners! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.

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Originally by: jamesw

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Devs are people too

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

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Originally by: Ab Initio

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Originally by: Anonymous Coward

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Even when that developer is the manager of your capital ship program and has direct knowledge of your account-sharing cynonet?

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Apart from the fact that account sharing is a no no, I wouldnt care what position a Dev was playing on a standard account.

People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

---

Originally by: Anonymous Coward

---

I'm not only a dev, I own all the Vagabond BPOs.

---

Originally by: Anonymous Coward

---

Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 07/02/2007 07:45:44

Originally by: Sinlare

---

Indeed, grats to all paranoid whiners! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.

---

Yeah, damn those inconsiderate whistleblowers! If only they'd kept their mouths shut!

---

Originally by: Ab Initio

---

People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

---

Originally by: Isidien Madcap

---

The main problem is that the results of the investigation aren't verifiable in any way.

---

Originally by: Celero Incendium

---

Originally by: Ab Initio

---

People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

---

Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.

So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.

I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences.

---

Originally by: Ab Initio

---

Edited by: Ab Initio on 07/02/2007 07:57:33

Originally by: Anonymous Coward

---

I'm not only a dev, I own all the Vagabond BPOs.

---

Is that proof enough to ban you from the game? You seem to think it's enough to ban others.

Originally by: Steve Nash

---

I suspect that the corps/alliances who know they have devs within their ranks see absolutley no conflict of interest. I also suspect that all the other poor saps feel cheated.

---

I still don't know whether we do or not. If we do, I'm glad they get to experience all the things we do, because it will make for better development of the game. If not, I could care less.

My real life job revolves around computer security, the day I take the word of someone who spends his life breaking into the machines I try to secure, over long standing members of a community I'm part of.. Well, thats the day I stop playing EVE.

---

Originally by: Sausage Commandos

---

A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

---

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal

---

# Where the BPO's donated to bob from a Dev aquired in a legitimate way?

---

Originally by: Merciless1

---

Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.

---

Originally by: Celero Incendium

---

Originally by: Ab Initio

---

People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

---

Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.

So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.

I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences.

---

Originally by: Sausage Commandos

---

A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

---

Originally by: Sinlare

---

Originally by: Merciless1

---

Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.

---

Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing.

---

Quote:

---

Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.

---

Originally by: Sausage Commandos

---

A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

---

Originally by: Merciless1

---

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal

---

Originally by: Sinlare

---

Originally by: Merciless1

---

Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.

---

Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing.

---

Well thats kind of a mute point, If I was forced to leave the corporation I was with by my employer than I would still want to wish them all the best. And yes I would hand over everything I had to them! Dev's make friends in-game just the same as the rest of us.

Whats important is HOW the BPO's where obtained.

---

Are you serious? Do you not see a difference between someone winning/buying them and spawning them out of nowhere? I'm not saying it did or didn't happen, just saying your crazy for thinking like this, it's basicly the definition of cheating.

---

Originally by: OmegaClone

---

What would your Viking ancestors say? Shame Shame on all of you.

---

Originally by: Sinlare

---

*snip* - Cortes You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game?
*snip* - Cortes

---

Originally by: Dianabolic

---

I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 07/02/2007 07:45:44

Quote:

---

Originally by: Sinlare

Indeed, grats to all paranoid whiners! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.

---

Yeah, damn those inconsiderate whistleblowers! If only they'd kept their mouths shut!

---

What about proof or stfu? You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game?

---

Originally by: IntegralHellsing

---

Edited by: IntegralHellsing on 07/02/2007 08:20:46
Deletion of char is a bit upsetting even to me.
poor devs, have to delete their beloved chars.

Quote:

---

Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.

---

I am sure CCP has all the logs from the event, and also have the ability evaluate whether the info was leaked before the event or not. Don't say that CCP doesn't even keep the files/logs of how the planning went everyday, and how the event was executed.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oveur
Regarding the investigation, there will be a conclusion to it published, but it's going to be done when there is a conclusion, not before. This investigation, like others, isn't going to be rushed. And yes, it does take days. We are effectively re-auditing all the player accounts, all the time the account has been played, since he started. But more on that later. As pointed out, the process is sometimes as important as the conclusion.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kieron
As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread.

---

Originally by: Milano II

---

The T2 BPOs? We all know one famous alliance has almost all of them, mostly dev-created/hax0red/handed-out or whatever- because afterall... they're not the carebears they try to come across as.... they dont do agent missions that often to get these things from the faulty lottery system that has been set up anyway.

---

Originally by: Steve Nash

---

Originally by: Anila's Delight

---

I am inclined to agree with the BoB forum professionals (gah!) on this one, bob have been branded as guilty before any eveidence has been presented to the comunity (which i dont think it will), because these kinds of allegations have been flying around for a while now.

Everyone who has posted anti-bob and bob=dev in this thread are taking the word of a known hacker (by his own admission) without proof to the contrary. Sounds like slandering a superier PvP force to me.

Sore loosers anyone?

---

I don't think you can point a finger at the community here. The fact is that the statement delivered by CCP has served to cast more suspicion on themselves and BoB. I'm not a BoB hater, but somethin dont smell right.

---

Originally by: Kai Gaivuuri

---

T
Being open and telling what happened, why it happened and what are we gonna do in the future would help a lot. At the moment I can't believe what I am seeing. This is meant to be a game that is handled in a professional way. What the heck am I paying for? I pay for the devs so that they can develop the game and at the same time force me to bend over... thank you.

Being honest and straightforward would help the company the most. Otherwise people will whine, whine and continue to whine. Answering to every question is impossible but doing the best thing possible is a lot better than trying to ban those who ask for answers and want the honesty. Treat the players and especially yourselves by the rules.

I really thought I would never see this in a MMORPG that I pay for.

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

---

Originally by: Anila's Delight

---

You cant trust a hacker, and how can you verify what he said is the truth and not just a part of a smear campaign.

---

Quote:

---

these accusations were recently brought forward when a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game.

---

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

---

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

---

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo

---

I can see CCP are stuck somewhere between a rock and a hard place on the issue. I'd highly doubt it possible to 'fire' or substantially 'discipline' an employee based on the claims of a hacker. A court would not accept it on the grounds that if it was 'dishonestly' obtained info, then its *legally* dishonest info, and if said employee appealed to a court on unfair dismissal, he'd win hands down.

---

Originally by: Dianabolic

---

I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

---

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

---

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found?

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found?


As for the rest of you lot,

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us. The tinfoil hattery is amazing, i know that you would love for us all to be framed for some conspiracy. Since we are all still here, all the accusations are totally baseless.

There will be devs in every alliance in the game, and i for one, do not wanna know who is a dev or not, i want them to be in the middle of everything, from lowlevel gaming, to highlevel gaming, so that they see the issues we all face, from day to day.

Face it, you love the drama and the conspiracy theories, and thats all there is, drama and conspiracy theories.

---

Originally by: Platinum Sapphire

---

Well gee, maybe the admission that some developers have had their characters deleted because they were publiclly known might be the proof you're looking for. After all, CCP's own rules state that dev character's are to be anonymous, not publiclly known. Since they have been removed from the game, then obviously there must have been some wrongdoing there for the names to have been able to be found publiclly. After all, even if your forums were hacked, the information was found out that these people were devs. This is information that should not have been known by ANYONE outside of CCP... even among a small group of "trusted people/friends". The rules are absolute.. they don't apply only now and then.

---

Originally by: Captain Thunk

---

You accept the profits of macro operations with full knowledge.

CAPTAIN THUNK

---

Originally by: Platinum Sapphire

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found?

---

Well gee, maybe the admission that some developers have had their characters deleted because they were publiclly known might be the proof you're looking for. After all, CCP's own rules state that dev character's are to be anonymous, not publiclly known. Since they have been removed from the game, then obviously there must have been some wrongdoing there for the names to have been able to be found publiclly. After all, even if your forums were hacked, the information was found out that these people were devs. This is information that should not have been known by ANYONE outside of CCP... even among a small group of "trusted people/friends". The rules are absolute.. they don't apply only now and then.


You're the leader of the Alliance in question... How about YOU confirm or deny if any of the removed characters held high level positions within BoB, and whether you or any of your directors were aware that they were CCP staff?

---

Originally by: Casper Ozymandias

---

Quote this if you hate censorship.

---

Originally by: Eelifea

---

Originally by: Casper Ozymandias

---

Quote this if you hate censorship.

---

---

Originally by: Eelifea

---

Originally by: Casper Ozymandias

---

Quote this if you hate censorship.

---

---

Originally by: Ab Initio

---

If you actually knew what you were talking about, and weren't just running around with a pitchfork, you would realise why that doesn't make any sense.

---

Originally by: Captain Thunk

---

You've been caught red-handed with information that has been verified regardless of how "highlevel gaming" it was obtained.

You accept the profits of macro operations with full knowledge.
You're well aware that characters are traded by your directors for cash.
You know that your members engage in the same activities as kugutsumen but lack the balls to go public.

This is hardly baseless accusations.

What you've done with your highlevel gaming is forced everyone to use the same methods in order to compete on a level playing field, which means there's a lot of EULA's that are going to be torn up and ignored on the proviso that all such activities and transactions are conducted out of game and don't leave an ingame trail - you've afterall proven that it's easy to get away with it.

Nice one mate.

CAPTAIN THUNK

---

Originally by: Lyticus

---

Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59
I dont frequent the EVE-O message boards very often, usually because the standard of intelligent conversation is generally quite low. However, this situation calls for my comment and input since it affects me directly.

Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned. I understand that CCP reserves the right to do this under their TOS agreements. However, if EVE is truly the open-ended sandbox the developers claim it is, where you can scam, lie and cheat your way to the top, and as many do, then why has Kugutsumen been singled out in this case?

Did CCP need a scapegoat to blame this event on? Why not blame this fellow? He has ties to all the right corporations, he's been known for causing a bit of a forum uproar in the past, the perfect one to take the fall. Lets ignore the fact that it was in fact the developers fault for distributing sensitive information to their corpmates in the first place. If one of the BOB members who was in the know had leaked the information, would this situation have been treated differently?

Subversion and corp theft are commonplace in EVE, it makes sense that someone would create an intelligence based website where those who pay can obtain this kind of information from those who specialise in its retrieval.

So, I ask CCP, is this the beginning of a new wave?
Should I remove my alts from corporations which are there only to benefit myself?
Should my IPO scam be cancelled lest I risk a ban?

The other day, my alt was scammed by a new player for 5 million isk. I knew he was scamming me at the time, but it was an interesting experience and I taught him a few things on how to improve his tactics. In hindsight, should I have petitioned him? Will you give me my isk back, and give him a warning?

My viewpoint may of course be skewed since I know the person involved here, and all my facts may not be correct as I am not the forum warrior I once was, however, I hope that my points will be considered in the discussion.

In conclusion, is this turning into another World of Warcraft, CCP?

Make sure you let us know, so I can hang up my space boots in advance, I won't be coming along for that ride, thanks.

- Lyticus

---

Originally by: Sinlare

---

Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 09:09:40
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 09:07:09

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

---

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

---

So, sni.ggerdly hosts a hacker huh? good to know It does explain why shamis responds the way he does. interesting.

---

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

---

Actually I host a paying customer. My work is quite separate from my in-game associations, but think what you will :D

---

Originally by: Sun Ra

---

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

---

Originally by: SirMolle

---

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

---

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

---

Erm so its bad for peopel to DDoS your site but its ok for your mate to go aroudn hacking peoples forums?

---

Originally by: Sinlare

---

Good to know that even in real life you support criminals.

---

Originally by: Dianabolic

---

I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

---

Originally by: Avon

---

This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

CCP: "CCP have players in many alliances"
Witch Hunters: Yeah, but we are only interested in BoB witches. Clearly a Dev in BoB must be corrupt. It is obvious.

Hacker: A character who I think is a dev gave BoB some T2 BPO's.
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, obviously the Dev cheated to create the BPO's, or coded the lottery in shuch a way that he would win. Stands to reason. I mean, we all know that the lottery is unfair because *I* have never had a BPO, so it is obvious the Devs cheat.

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and nothing unfair happened. The Dev in question legitimately aquired the BPO's on his player account."
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, you would say that. It is a cover-up. We know that it was all cheating and h4x. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!!

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and a Dev was a naughty boy."
Witch Hunters: Ah-ha! We knew it. BoB can't be trusted. The CCP can't be trusted. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!

Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Devs are losing player characters because they got IP matched on a third party website.
CCP are losing reputation because people want to believe a conspiracy.
The playerbase becomes increasingly paranoid.

The whole community is going to hell, and for what?

If you believe all this stuff, fine.
I know nothing I say will change that.
Just leave.


This whole thing has saddened me to be honest.
Not the accusations, they are nothing unusual; but the community reaction to them.

This whole episode tarnishes the image of CCP, of BoB (not that we didn't have a bad image anyway), but mostly of the community.

Sad times.

---

Originally by: Lyticus

---

Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59
Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned.

---

Originally by: Lyticus

---

Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59
I dont frequent the EVE-O message boards very often, usually because the standard of intelligent conversation is generally quite low. However, this situation calls for my comment and input since it affects me directly.

Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned. I understand that CCP reserves the right to do this under their TOS agreements. However, if EVE is truly the open-ended sandbox the developers claim it is, where you can scam, lie and cheat your way to the top, and as many do, then why has Kugutsumen been singled out in this case?

Did CCP need a scapegoat to blame this event on? Why not blame this fellow? He has ties to all the right corporations, he's been known for causing a bit of a forum uproar in the past, the perfect one to take the fall. Lets ignore the fact that it was in fact the developers fault for distributing sensitive information to their corpmates in the first place. If one of the BOB members who was in the know had leaked the information, would this situation have been treated differently?

Subversion and corp theft are commonplace in EVE, it makes sense that someone would create an intelligence based website where those who pay can obtain this kind of information from those who specialise in its retrieval.

So, I ask CCP, is this the beginning of a new wave?
Should I remove my alts from corporations which are there only to benefit myself?
Should my IPO scam be cancelled lest I risk a ban?

The other day, my alt was scammed by a new player for 5 million isk. I knew he was scamming me at the time, but it was an interesting experience and I taught him a few things on how to improve his tactics. In hindsight, should I have petitioned him? Will you give me my isk back, and give him a warning?

My viewpoint may of course be skewed since I know the person involved here, and all my facts may not be correct as I am not the forum warrior I once was, however, I hope that my points will be considered in the discussion.

In conclusion, is this turning into another World of Warcraft, CCP?

Make sure you let us know, so I can hang up my space boots in advance, I won't be coming along for that ride, thanks.

- Lyticus

---

Originally by: Avon

---

Originally by: Avon

---

This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

CCP: "CCP have players in many alliances"
Witch Hunters: Yeah, but we are only interested in BoB witches. Clearly a Dev in BoB must be corrupt. It is obvious.

Hacker: A character who I think is a dev gave BoB some T2 BPO's.
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, obviously the Dev cheated to create the BPO's, or coded the lottery in shuch a way that he would win. Stands to reason. I mean, we all know that the lottery is unfair because *I* have never had a BPO, so it is obvious the Devs cheat.

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and nothing unfair happened. The Dev in question legitimately aquired the BPO's on his player account."
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, you would say that. It is a cover-up. We know that it was all cheating and h4x. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!!

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and a Dev was a naughty boy."
Witch Hunters: Ah-ha! We knew it. BoB can't be trusted. The CCP can't be trusted. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!

Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Devs are losing player characters because they got IP matched on a third party website.
CCP are losing reputation because people want to believe a conspiracy.
The playerbase becomes increasingly paranoid.

The whole community is going to hell, and for what?

If you believe all this stuff, fine.
I know nothing I say will change that.
Just leave.


This whole thing has saddened me to be honest.
Not the accusations, they are nothing unusual; but the community reaction to them.

This whole episode tarnishes the image of CCP, of BoB (not that we didn't have a bad image anyway), but mostly of the community.

Sad times.

---

---

Originally by: Dianabolic

---

I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

---

Originally by: Anonymous Coward

---

Did you mean to quote and reply to this post with your Sinlare alt, but selected the wrong dropdown option?

---

Originally by: Xendie

---

i wonder why they had bob investigating bob/dev stuff?

think about it for a sec, 5 devs in RKK alone, how many more in the rest of bob?
wouldnt it be kinda hard for 2-3 devs to fire the rest of the office?

one thing though, when will molle be banned for putting a persons RL name/adress/workplace on these forums?

when will digitalcommunist be banned for trying to get peoples ip adresses ingame?
when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101
when will bob alliance be disbanded for using information they knew werent allowed?(the leadership were effectively exploiting when they knew that these persons were devs and still accepted advance information)

will CCP ever do anything against bob?
answer is, never as they would ban themselves then.

---