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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Nelson Vandermark
Triton Dynamics Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 07:57:00 -
[121]
Account is closed, thanks for all the fish.
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Isidien Madcap
Minmatar Provenance.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:01:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Isidien Madcap on 07/02/2007 08:02:23 EVE is the ultimate sandbox; it's why the game is as great as it is. This type of situation wouldn't happen in many of the other popular MMOs today (at least the North American/European ones, anyway), or at least not have as much effect on the game, because there simply isn't as much at stake.
But I think that in EVE, this type of stuff is very dangerous -- it's pretty upsetting when people realize that they're not playing by the same sandbox rules. At the very least, it's a smear campaign that BoB can't effectively defend against. At worst, if there was an unfair advantage due to dev intervention, it cheapens the victories and dedication of hundreds of people. (I've been on that side of the fence before as part of a little group called the Rollin' 30's in Shadowbane; the issue there was hacking, though, not dev intervention -- it only called into question the dev team's competency, not their integrity.) Either of these situations suck, both for CCP and for the corps/alliances who were accused.
The main problem is that the results of the investigation aren't verifiable in any way. It's not at all clear how any actions resulting from the investigation that were taken have affected the EVE world, while it's pretty clear how the actions specified in the allegations would have done so. While the actual identities of the people involved should not be revealed, revealing the names of the characters themselves does not seem unreasonable. I also refuse to believe that kieron does not know anything beyond what was posted -- unless he's been kept in a bubble, that kind of statement is just insulting. "I can't/am not allowed to/don't wish to reveal anything more" would have been fine. This is not a witch hunt, it's damage control: "who did what, when, and how much effect did it have on the world?" The original post claims the answers to these questions are "some people did some things some time ago, and it had no effect other than getting their characters banned".
The other question is -- why was it such a difficult investigation? If the people involved were as high profile as some people would like to believe, then I would expect them to simply confess instead of waiting for the results of whatever investigation was involved. A public apology by those individuals would be appropriate; I think the player community would be harsh but ultimately forgiving, because we still love the damn game. This stuff only hurts the game that both the developers and the players feel so strongly about.
Edit: it's pretty ridiculous to ask that CCP employees either not play the game, or not hold positions in high profile corps, etc. As was pointed out, they're real people. They should not reveal that they are CCP employees; that's pretty straightforward. But if they stick to that, who cares what position they have? If someone offers a director position to them, do they decline, what, due to "personal reasons"? EVE is unique in that the game can be enjoyed by the people who develop it; there's magic in the game that's not directly in the code and content that make up the game. Denying them that would hurt the game immensely.
The more difficult issue is the players inadvertently revealing themselves, e.g. through forum IP logs and the like. That sounds like a policy/technology issue that they need to be aware of, but not much beyond that. Isidien Provenance. www.eve-provenance.com -- looking for more pilots! |
Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:04:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Anonymous Coward Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 07/02/2007 07:45:44
Originally by: Sinlare Indeed, grats to all paranoid whiners! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.
Yeah, damn those inconsiderate whistleblowers! If only they'd kept their mouths shut!
What about proof or stfu? You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game? Please give me your personal data and i'll go accuse you of things i think are true, let's see how your boss likes that. If he has any sense in him he'll kick me out, and i hope ccp does the same with paranoid people like you. |
31i73
BGG
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:05:00 -
[124]
Alrgiht, I'm angry about this as anyone, boo BoD and that, but hey, lets face it, We are all so hooked on this, theres no way we could quit. Its like stopping breathing after seeing news on pollution.
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Celero Incendium
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:05:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Ab Initio People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.
Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.
Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.
So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.
I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences. --ci |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:07:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Isidien Madcap The main problem is that the results of the investigation aren't verifiable in any way.
I would argue that the main problem is that the investigation seemed to completely ignore the main concerns people had.
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Dr Felonius
Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:08:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Dr Felonius on 07/02/2007 08:06:21 To me, this entire mess demonstrates the limitations of CCP's extremely closed-off communications policy. I'm completely convinced that the game would be better served by a 90 degree about face.
CCP should require devs to tell everyone who their characters are. They should publish the protocols for monitoring dev activity and let the community at large criticize them. Bare all to the community and say, "Yes, there are developers running CIPUL and many other corps. Here are all the ways you and other players can trust that those developers are playing by the same rules as anyone else." As long as CCP insists on concealing the facts, people will always assume there is something worth concealing.
Edit: CIPUL is not run by devs. I was just using my own corp as an example.
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jamesw
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:09:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Celero Incendium
Originally by: Ab Initio People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.
Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.
Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.
So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.
I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences.
afaik his proof they were from ccp was by the ip they used to post to that forum, not by reading conversations with bob leaders. --
Latest Vid: Domination! |
Steve Nash
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:11:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Ab Initio Edited by: Ab Initio on 07/02/2007 07:57:33
Originally by: Anonymous Coward I'm not only a dev, I own all the Vagabond BPOs.
Is that proof enough to ban you from the game? You seem to think it's enough to ban others.
Originally by: Steve Nash I suspect that the corps/alliances who know they have devs within their ranks see absolutley no conflict of interest. I also suspect that all the other poor saps feel cheated.
I still don't know whether we do or not. If we do, I'm glad they get to experience all the things we do, because it will make for better development of the game. If not, I could care less.
My real life job revolves around computer security, the day I take the word of someone who spends his life breaking into the machines I try to secure, over long standing members of a community I'm part of.. Well, thats the day I stop playing EVE.
A more apt example would be that of a stockbroker who had inside information. It's illegal.
I was not making a personal attack on you, I don't know you, but my point stands.
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Merciless1
Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:11:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Merciless1 on 07/02/2007 08:13:41
Originally by: Sausage Commandos A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...
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Masochistic Cannibal
Amarr The Ring of Fire
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:12:00 -
[131]
CCP I dought you will ever answer these questions but it's worth a try. Will you ever give us answers on the following ?
# Why did a Dev ignore the fact that BoB where benefitting from macro-miners in their space ?
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?
# Where the BPO's donated to bob from a Dev aquired in a legitimate way ?
Obviously I dont expect an answer now, but after these investigations are finished will you ever release the honest info. I somehow dought it, the truth would tarnish your reputation ever further than it allready has been.
I eat babies ! [Hauling services available~ Contact ingame] |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:15:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal # Where the BPO's donated to bob from a Dev aquired in a legitimate way?
And for that matter, why were they given to BoB in the first place?
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Sinlare
Gallente Sinlare Auditorium
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:15:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Merciless1
Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.
Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing. |
Milano II
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:17:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Celero Incendium
Originally by: Ab Initio People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.
Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.
Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.
So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.
I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences.
LOL I knew You'd be posting. I was waiting for it. Why dont you just let Shamis handle these things? Anyway. thanks for posting :)
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Merciless1
Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:17:00 -
[135]
Ok my last post quoted the wrong thread for some reason and now I can't edit or delet it
Originally by: Sausage Commandos A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...
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Masochistic Cannibal
Amarr The Ring of Fire
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:20:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Merciless1
Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.
Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing.
Well thats kind of a mute point, If I was forced to leave the corporation I was with by my employer than I would still want to wish them all the best. And yes I would hand over everything I had to them! Dev's make friends in-game just the same as the rest of us.
Whats important is HOW the BPO's where obtained.
I eat babies ! [Hauling services available~ Contact ingame] |
IntegralHellsing
Gallente The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:21:00 -
[137]
Edited by: IntegralHellsing on 07/02/2007 08:20:46 Deletion of char is a bit upsetting even to me. poor devs, have to delete their beloved chars.
Quote: Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.
I am sure CCP has all the logs from the event, and also have the ability evaluate whether the info was leaked before the event or not. Don't say that CCP doesn't even keep the files/logs of how the planning went everyday, and how the event was executed. I would be quite surprised if a company (even CCP) planning an event doesn't keep files of daily plan, preparation and procedures of a big event (that gave player alliance a free mothership) doesn't even keep a single file on what they planned and executed.
Why am i going on about files/logs? because CCP wrote that long time has passed since the planning and execution of event. don't think ccp deletes/trashes the files and logs just because it happened a long time ago.
What I'm saying is, merely saying 'sorry, no log, no trace. can't really make a nasty decision. please move along for a while.' isn't enough. Not that i would want to see the reward from event removed, but at least show a trace of having done an investigation into this matter.
It just looks plain stupid when CCP goes 'it happened ages ago, can't make a decision.' because it just gives other people (who doesn't know much about eve-online) the impression that CCP can't even manage its internal issue.
Well i'm going to stop writing before this becomes an accusation + troll. I'm just asking CCP to be more thorough in their investigation. I am sure CCP HAS abilities to lead their internal investigations into leak on the information of event. If CCP doesn't, I would be very surprised, so would everyone else.
ps. YES my English sucks a lot more than you native speakers, so if you don't understand what i wrote, please just move on. ------------------------------
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Merciless1
Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:27:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Merciless1 on 07/02/2007 08:27:26 nvm, my eyes are playing tricks on me, time for sleep
Originally by: Sausage Commandos A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...
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Xoria Krint
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:28:00 -
[139]
More information about the bpo thing and im happy. ---
My Movies
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:30:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Merciless1
Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Merciless1
Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.
Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing.
Well thats kind of a mute point, If I was forced to leave the corporation I was with by my employer than I would still want to wish them all the best. And yes I would hand over everything I had to them! Dev's make friends in-game just the same as the rest of us.
Whats important is HOW the BPO's where obtained.
Are you serious? Do you not see a difference between someone winning/buying them and spawning them out of nowhere? I'm not saying it did or didn't happen, just saying your crazy for thinking like this, it's basicly the definition of cheating.
Erm... that's kinda what he's saying. What he said was that what's important is if the BPOs were aquired through the same ingame means that everyone else can aquire them. Ie, lottery, buying them or being given them. If it was aquired by those means then people should care less about what he did with them.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: Sama |
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Angrona
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:31:00 -
[141]
Let me preface this by saying I never have or ever had any intention to play in the metagame on the level of the organzations or the operations they run. I log in, I mine, I rat a little, and run missions every once in a while. I'm content with that. I played maybe a couple hours a week, but with the way training works I never "fell behind" like I would have in other MMO's. I've kept up a subsription for over a year soley to support a game system I liked and thought was innovative.
But because of the events/allegations involved here and the subsequent lack of any attempt to "set things right" I'm cancelling my account and will never, ever consider playing another multiplayer by CCP. The level of corruption on the part of CCP staff and the perks enjoyed by players that have absolutely no need for them disgusts me. And it doesn't even sound like a single person was fired - they just need to reroll and probably just edit a spreadsheet record and they're back in business again.
Completely disgusting.
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Samirol
OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:31:00 -
[142]
The reason that the eve community wants to know what happened with the BoB betrayal is that there was some pretty damning evidence. Innocent until proven guilty right? The defendent didnt even show up on this one.
There is nothing that says that BoB is innocent of receiving BPOs that were made from thin air. Kieron doesn't even mention it.
Being straight up with the community will help things, instead of it blowing up more when the next Kugutsumen comes along and exposes more corruption.
I buy insane sigs, mail me ingame. |
Slayton Ford
Caldari Kudzu Collective
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:33:00 -
[143]
As a long time EQ player, it is commonly known that the devs play in regular guilds. Additionally, those guilds know that they have a member who is a dev. How does that benefit them? They probably end up beta testing expansions as a guild on the beta server but on live, it doesnt help them in the slightest. EvE is a bit different though. There is a enticement for devs to cheat (as has been done) and give their corps a unfair advantage. Now devs need to understand that they must be above all that. That means no devs should not be allowed to access t2 BPs in the game. If they want t2 items, they need to get it. They may play the game, but they need to understand that due to previous dev actions, the game can be corrupted.
As to the existing BPOs and ebaying 10/10 complexes. A simple but radical solution that would **** everyone off but fix things is to convert every t2 BPO to a BPC (number of runs determined by type, more for ammo, less for ships). Then as a BPC leaves the game due to use, seed in t2 BPOs again. For ebaying complexes, well one solution is to make them more roving through the region so every few weeks they move.
At the minimum though, I would think every t2 BP that was owned by a dev and is no longer in that devs hands should be destroyed AND every item created from those BPs needs to be either destroyed (ill gotten gains from a poisoned fruit) or at the least converted to the best Tech 1 alternative (so a T2 launcher becomes a Arbalest).
Now excuse me while I duck from the flames that will come at me.
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Kedryn Caitin
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:36:00 -
[144]
Originally by: OmegaClone What would your Viking ancestors say? Shame Shame on all of you.
They would say, "This one is still a lively ride, brother. Have a hump while I carry this sack of loot back to the longboat. If she is worth anything when you are done, bring her too."
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Casper Ozymandias
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:40:00 -
[145]
Am I the only one who has noticed posts speaking out against CCPs corruption in this thread being outright deleted?
This whole investigation was a joke, Not only was there no real answer for a well deserved question, but the real question itself was entirely ignored and substituted with one no one really cared about.
The only good thing to come out of this thread is that now everyone has a nice new nickname for BoB.
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Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:42:00 -
[146]
What happened to the 10+ T2 BPOs that the dev left behind with rkk when he was outed and left? Is it standard procedure for all T2 BPOs lost out of the loop to be moved to a BoB corp? Now Kugutsumen is banned does this mean BoB now own his T2 BPOs too?
Why is the blame being put onto other people for the outing of the devs when it was the devs freely informing bob members of their position that allowed the information to become public. Did they not out themselves?
Does this mean we can freely transfer characters for whichever currency we choose now?
Does this ruling mean we can profit from macro operations so long as we leave sufficient deniability? Most of us would appreciate a few billion extra per month.
What's CCPs opinion on "escalation" - Sir Molle brought us Social Engineering by installing his members in other corporations and alliances like Goonfleet, 0utbreak, CCP and D2. With limited tools to fight this kind of thing are we not surprised that the ante is being raised? It doesn't take a genius to buy a character (easier for parts of the community than the rest) and enroll with another corp - trick is to remember not to say things like "yeah I do that on my main" or "damn! I only have the skills for that on my other char"
To the hard workers of CCP - why is it that the "star wars" signatures have never been deemed offensive, when they so clearly are and made specifically to inflame. One quickly gains the impression that moderation on CAOD can be a one sided affair.
CAPTAIN THUNK
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team. |
Anonymous Coward
Gallente Panopticon Citadel
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:42:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Sinlare *snip* - Cortes You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game? *snip* - Cortes
Well, if I see anyone's life get ruined here, I'll be sure to let you know.
Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.
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Johnathan Roark
Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:43:00 -
[148]
Personally, I do not care if the devs play in player corps. I actually hope they do. I do care if they have abused inside information. Any BPOS or other items received not from normal means should be removed from the game. If the allegations are all lies, I would be happy with a statement saying so. This is not the time to keep the community in the dark.
On another note, the censorship in this thread looks bad.
Corporation Management Improvement |
Platinum Sapphire
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:44:00 -
[149]
Quote:
Quote: Originally by: Anonymous Coward Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 07/02/2007 07:45:44
Quote: Originally by: Sinlare
Indeed, grats to all paranoid whiners! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.
Yeah, damn those inconsiderate whistleblowers! If only they'd kept their mouths shut!
What about proof or stfu? You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game?
Proof? Well gee, I don't know... but I think Kieron's admission that Dev characters are being removed from the game might be some kind of admission that there was at least SOME truth to the accusations... There's your proof right there.
All that people here are calling for is that Kieron release more details of that proof so we can be assured that the investigation was conducted fairly and thoroughly... A little transperency to the process, if you will.
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Niaski Zalani
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:46:00 -
[150]
What I find interesting is that Kugutsumen got hit with the ultra-banstick-of-doom, whilst people that are guilty of the same sort of actions are still merrily in-game, including someone who posted Kugutsumen's personal information on these forums.
Smells slightly double-standard like if you ask me. yarr. |
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