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Eve Influence Map

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Paladin Vent Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.03.05 15:52:00 - [151] Originally by: Xeliya The BoB outposts are 7 jumps H8 and then 20+ MP5/LX, that's not close by but what ever. Why should we have to POS spam systems around us with POS's that do nothing to show it's our land? The other systems in Paragon may look close on the 2D map but they are not and you can check this with you 3D map and/or auto pilot. Unfortunately, there are no 3D screens today. Because of that, 3D map must be projected on the 2D plane before it'll be displayed. When I said "close", I mean a short distance on the projected map, not over 3d. Let's imagine that the program is calculating influence over 3D. You have your domination bubble on the "bottom", but BoB have it on the "top". As I said before, screens can't display 3D, so we must display it in 2d. How? The solution s to calculate total influence of your alliance and total influence of the BoB over the vertical line that'll be rendered as 1 point on map. As you can see - total influence of the BoB on that vertical line is higher than yours. BoB are dominating on the 2D map, but that doesn’t man that you are not dominating some space on the 3D.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 16:28:00 - [152] well than you can use a number based on average players active in last hour snapshot. I just find really unrealistic taht 100 players with 8 pos spread ed in a large area will have more inlfuence for example than 1000 players with 8 poses in a ssame huge area. The 100 players will very hardly visit all their territory to have real influence. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Thoric Frosthammer The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.05 16:40:00 - [153] The basic problem here, and I'll say it again, is that number of pos's do not necessarily equal influence. I'm not, for example, an Xpact member, but from experience, I can tell you that there's noone seriously questioning their control of their particular constellation. The fact that a fairly numerous alliance in unchallenged control of over a dozen systems doesn't show up on this map at all because they haven't bothered with pos spamming every system makes the map less useful to most people. Someone travelling near B-7 and relying on your map for guidance will be quite surprised to find XPact there. Any map which leaves off the sov of particular stations and doesn't reflect the feet on the ground situation accurately is not a useful map, no matter how "mathematical" and unbiased it is. I appreciate and agree with the need for a map based on neutral principals but this one isn't there yet. Influence is not a mathematical concept. You can have 50 poses up all over nearby space, but if you huddle in your home system except to refuel them periodically you don't have true influence. Alternatively, if you own one station system, but you regularly patrol nearby systems, you have great control over those systems. The other maps may be subject to argument and flubdubbery, but then so are national borders in the real world sometimes. India/Pakistan border anyone? This map is a very interesting initial concept. But it needs to take pos spam a little less seriously, and introduce a few other factors. At the least, it needs to accurately reflect where a station or system has sov that is different from the "dominant influence" or you just confuse travellers.
Diragi Strife Mercenaries Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.05 17:01:00 - [154] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer The basic problem here, and I'll say it again, is that number of pos's do not necessarily equal influence. I'm not, for example, an Xpact member, but from experience, I can tell you that there's noone seriously questioning their control of their particular constellation. Perhaps a better way of showing the data is required; something a little more 2-D. For example; the borders of each alliance stays as-is. The heavier their influence (as determined by POS and outposts) would affect how bright the star systems are displayed.
Thoric Frosthammer The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.05 17:28:00 - [155] Originally by: Diragi Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer The basic problem here, and I'll say it again, is that number of pos's do not necessarily equal influence. I'm not, for example, an Xpact member, but from experience, I can tell you that there's noone seriously questioning their control of their particular constellation. Perhaps a better way of showing the data is required; something a little more 2-D. For example; the borders of each alliance stays as-is. The heavier their influence (as determined by POS and outposts) would affect how bright the star systems are displayed. That might be a good solution yes. The question remains though, how would wxb constellation display. IMO, any map that shows it as anything but in the firm control of XPACT doesnt' reflect reality. Mathematically by this formula however, they don't control their own home system. It doesn't work. This map reflects a lot of reality, but it isn't capturing the fine details. Until it does, it's not going to replace the others in my bookmarks. Just my .02 isk for all its worth.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 17:53:00 - [156] I say.. look at CIV IV map of influence. Even if your city is tiny and in middle of several enemy ships it has a MINIMAl influence radius. So I would say.. make that an outpost generate at least a x radius that MUST be yours no matter how many other outposts are around you. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Diragi Strife Mercenaries Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.05 17:56:00 - [157] Good point, influence shouldn't overwrite sovereignty. Though people should remember is an 'influence' map, not control.
DerHund Erste Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.05 17:58:00 - [158] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer The basic problem here, and I'll say it again, is that number of pos's do not necessarily equal influence. I'm not, for example, an Xpact member, but from experience, I can tell you that there's noone seriously questioning their control of their particular constellation. The fact that a fairly numerous alliance in unchallenged control of over a dozen systems doesn't show up on this map at all because they haven't bothered with pos spamming every system makes the map less useful to most people. Someone travelling near B-7 and relying on your map for guidance will be quite surprised to find XPact there. <snip> Influence is not a mathematical concept. You can have 50 poses up all over nearby space, but if you huddle in your home system except to refuel them periodically you don't have true influence. Alternatively, if you own one station system, but you regularly patrol nearby systems, you have great control over those systems. The other maps may be subject to argument and flubdubbery, but then so are national borders in the real world sometimes. India/Pakistan border anyone? This map is a very interesting initial concept. But it needs to take pos spam a little less seriously, and introduce a few other factors. At the least, it needs to accurately reflect where a station or system has sov that is different from the "dominant influence" or you just confuse travellers. I think that if you select the right set of measurement factors and proper weighting factors for them, you can indeed get a good indicator of influence and ownership of an area. Number and size of POS certainly indicates a level of activity and commitment to a location that is pretty high. Buying, feeding, and protecting them is weekly chore. It is a good measurement of the owner's logistical commitment, and therefore, their 'staying power'. #pilots in system at a given time is certainly an indicator of population density. This will ebb and flow based on the timezone changes, but I think you could average some samples for the key times (Euro, E-US, W-US, Australian, and Russian) #ships destroyed in a system would be a good factor to help negate ownership of the system. It's clear to me that if a system has 500 ships destroyed in 24 hours, the system is 'contested', regardless of which side claims ownership. Pod kills would further magnify the conflict scenario. As a whole, I think this mapping method is spot on! Influence is overrated when you start taking the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Deception) factor out of the view by substituting facts. - DerHund
Thoric Frosthammer The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.05 18:34:00 - [159] Derhund, all I'm saying is, that from personal experience, I know of at least one alliance whose control over its region is completely misrespresented by this map. If there's one right next to me, it implies there may be more. As to the comment about poss reflecting a commitment to the area: Yes, but commitment is not control. In the more established regions maybe, but in the new region they are basically part of the free for all stake a claim mentality going on in the region at the moment. I can tell you that there are plenty of pos's in some odd locations out here that are more in the vein of your cat marking territory by peeing on it than any actual control over that particular system or constellation. I agree with the concept someone put in earlier of basic minimum spheres of influence. An outpost should, at a minimum, control a certain amount of space around it, absent say, a hostile pos in the next system. That might be a good solution. In fact, lookin at the way its done in civ IV would probably yield better results.
SencneS Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 19:28:00 - [160] This is a nice map a lot, I'd love to see one which included NCP Empires :) Actually I think the formula needs a little changing because it may not be the case in which an alliance even if it owns an outpost is completely dominated by a larger alliance. The influence map I saw for another game was a little more complex on the formula. In EVE Translation. Each Claimed system has a +2 Influence. Systems with an outpost omit say 5 jump influence that lowers by 1 every jump System owned by an alliance omit a 2 jump influence that lowers by 1 every jump Non-claimed systems omit a -1 jump influence on all intercepting alliances. All influence is compounding when interception of the same alliance. See the -1 influence is great when covering large alliances like BOB. BOB Don't claim every system in their space. You'll be surprised just how much the map would change if you made non-claimed system a -1 influence. The idea is if you have an outpost and your closest claimed system is 4 jumps away your influence is very light. Because it does this. Outpost system +7 (5 for the outpost 2 for the claimed system) 1 Jump out +4 (+4 from the outpost, -1 because it's an unclaimed system, +1 because it's next to a claimed system) 2 jumps out +2 (+3 from the outpost, -1 because it's an unclaimed system) 3 jumps out +2 (+2 from the outpost -1 because it's an unclaimed -1 because it's unclaimed, +1 because it's next to a claimed system) Claimed system 4 jumps out +3 (+1 from the outpost, and 2 for the claimed system) A great example of why I think the formula you used is a little off is IAC. Not to say they don't hold a large area, but lets be honest they have a HUGE claim on your map :) ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!

Blood Thorn Minmatar AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.03.05 19:55:00 - [161] Very, very well done. ----- Let the galaxy burn
0August0 Gallente Gooch Unlimited	Posted - 2007.03.05 20:21:00 - [162] When I try to access the map i get this message: Quote: Your IP/subnet has been forcibly banned due to network abuse. All access has been logged for security reasons. Woooo. scary, but being has how I am accessing this from work and this is the first time I or anyone else has tried to access this file or site from here I can't see why I should be getting this error. Bottom line perhaps the map owner should move his map to a more dependable website. . . . Regards, August
Mithfindel Amarr Ordo Crucis Argenteus	Posted - 2007.03.05 20:30:00 - [163] Like someone mentioned earlier, it'd be nice that the map showed - in addition to influence - also who's holding the system. Hence, on the first pass influence would be drawn. On the second pass, stars would be coloured by the colour assigned to the alliance claiming them. This would allow to show renters as well, without comparison between this map and the ingame sov map. Also, it'd be nice if the Empires would show. Say, all high sec systems generate a minor amount of influence for their owner? Even that way it'd be more than enough to stop the Player Alliance influence gradient reaching high sec - low sec is perfectly ok to be influenced by near 0.0 alliances in my opinion. And also, about the borderlines/gradient: Perchance it'd be possible to make the gradient nonlinear, so that it does first decrease slowly, and then starts to decrease faster? As in, if now the colour fades in relative to distance from influence, it could fade, say, relative to the square of the distance. This would make the central parts of the 'influenced' area have more solid a colour, and then it'd start to fade faster. Borderlines between neighbours would still be pretty sharp, if they would be close enough.
Paladin Vent Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.03.05 21:19:00 - [164] Influence map updated. Recent changes: - Border contrast greatly reduced. - Slightly redused the spread of the territory over the empty space. - Changed font and color of the alliances. The size of the alliance name is proportional to its territory. - Legend removed. - Image width reduced.
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.03.05 21:26:00 - [165] Aah, pff. I give up. Nor that we care that much: Most of the alliances depicted on the drone regions depend on others not shown there. If that`s not influence, I don`t what is it.
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2007.03.05 21:40:00 - [166] Gorgeous map! Really well done. I'd vote for a sticky for this. Automatic process, great looks, clear rationale -- what's not to like? Terrific work.
Internet Knight Caldari The Knighthawks Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 21:44:00 - [167] Wow. I saw this topic yesterday, but didn't look at the map as I had to go in a few moments. Topic's grown a lot since then ;) Good work, Paladin, keep it up. I vote for a stickied thread. Originally by: 0August0 Quote: Your IP/subnet has been forcibly banned due to network abuse. All access has been logged for security reasons. Woooo. scary, but being has how I am accessing this from work and this is the first time I or anyone else has tried to access this file or site from here I can't see why I should be getting this error. Bottom line perhaps the map owner should move his map to a more dependable website. eve-files is very dependable. I also got that error, but now it is fixed. I believe it to be spurious. Originally by: Paladin Vent Originally by: Kagura Nikon A suggestion. You could add a way to introduce number of player in the equation. Because an alliance that fields 1000 members in a space with 2 outpost... have far more influence than anotehr alliance that fields 100 players on a space with teh same 2 outposts. Let's look on hypothetical alliance of 1000 players. 400 of them are residing on the empire and were never seen in 0.0. 580 of them are alts or inactive players. And the last 20 is living on the outpost. Is that alliance better than an alliance of 50 active members, living in 0.0? Member count means nothing. If your alliance have 1000 active members in 2 systems, you'll die in the lags. :) Originally by: Kagura Nikon well than you can use a number based on average players active in last hour snapshot. I just find really unrealistic taht 100 players with 8 pos spread ed in a large area will have more inlfuence for example than 1000 players with 8 poses in a ssame huge area. The 100 players will very hardly visit all their territory to have real influence. Paladin, I suggest you base the map on three things, in these orders: Sovereignty Avg players in space Ships destroyed Obviously, #2 and #3 would require hourly or at the very least daily dumps of players in space and ships destroyed. Without knowing how you're getting your sovereignty data, I don't know how easy it would be to get the other data so frequently. If you could get the data frequently enough, then I suggest that you leave the current sovereignty gradient as is, and add a secondary 75% transparent gradient of the opposite color showing the calculation of (avg players / ships destroyed), the gradient's radius being 75% the size of the sovereignty gradient. The result would be a large sovereignty gradient and (if there are a lot of ships destroyed compared to avg players) a off-color warszone gradient inside of the sovereignty gradient. Please do some smoothing on the fonts and borders, they hurt my eyes. Also, there are several issues where the text makes it really hard to see some systems/outposts. I suggest that each system/outpost extend a 3- or 5-pixel radius where text is not allowed to be drawn. Then your program could attempt to find a box location (box width/height equal to the size of the alliance name when drawn) completely embedded within the sovereignty area, and draw there. If no suitable area is found, then you find the nearest suitable area even if in another alliance's sovereignty, draw there, draw a box around the alliance's text the same color as the alliance's sovereignty, and draw a line from the alliance's text to the alliance's sovereignty boundary.
Internet Knight Caldari The Knighthawks Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 21:44:00 - [168] What's more is that you could identify locations where an alliance claims two non-contiguous areas of space (for example, Goonswarm has two yellow blurbs currently), and either print the alliance name multiple times (once in each blurb), or print it once in a non-sovereign area and link both blurbs to eachother via lines to their boundaries. I'm also not a designer, but I'll try and see if I can come up with a diagram showing you what I mean in MS Paint, if you ask once more... but I do hope I was clear enough. As far as centering the sovereignty blurbs, I think that needs to be worked on. I take my point to the Ratel sovereignty. We've got sovereignty on four systems: I8-AJY, 1-EVAX, B2J-5N, and XTVZ-E. According to your map, our sovereignty is centered around I8-AJY and does not extend to 1-EVAX, B2J-5N, and XTVZ-E. I find it highly interesting that our area of influence contains 1 system that we have sovereignty and several that we don't, whereas 3 systems we do claim sovereignty do not get into our area of influence. I also want to point out that it's really hard to see I8-AJY, as it is right in the middle of the "A" in Alliance in Ratel Alliance, a prime example of what I was referring to with the systems needing a radius of no-text-draw. Again, good work, Paladin Vent. Keep it up.
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii	Posted - 2007.03.05 21:49:00 - [169] Your thread title got pwnt somehow. -Wylker
Felice Remillard Flatline Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.05 22:40:00 - [170] Outstanding map. Any chance of doing the map in different resolutions? Would look great in 1920 x 1200 as my desktop background . As it it, stretching it to fit messes up the text.

Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.03.05 22:59:00 - [171] Commendable work. Graz on it. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
DerHund Erste Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.05 23:16:00 - [172] The latest update is awesome. It really clarifies a lot in terms of where folks really are, versus what they "claim." It's hard to argue away bright/brilliant color spots or chest beat about vaguely visible spots surrounded with black. I've book marked this thread and use this one as the gold standard / heavy dose of salt for the other 'political' maps. - DerHund
Aaron Static Igneus Auctorita	Posted - 2007.03.06 00:42:00 - [173] This is awesome. You're awesome. United Legion is awesome. - Igneus Auctorita Video -
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.06 01:51:00 - [174] Er Paladin, your thread title's gone missing :P --------
Gaurav ETERNAL EQUINOX	Posted - 2007.03.06 01:57:00 - [175] Bookmark worth Thanks!!!
TJ17 Gallente DaRk MaTtEr INC. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.06 04:34:00 - [176] mods please sticky this awsome map already =P
SPQRMocton Minmatar Hand Of Bethke	Posted - 2007.03.06 04:49:00 - [177] second the stcky notion If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.03.06 06:00:00 - [178] Very very nice project Paladin. Since I suppose the 'model' / 'data' is kept separate from the 'view', there could be a number of ways to exploit the data graphically to make interesting maps, including in 3rd party programs like Flash (especially if you associate all the actual star data exported statically by CCP, which define 3D-position and connections/jumps). Associating other bits of data (most of it static), you could expand on this and create an EvE Atlas (political, economical, astronomical, etc.) by applying different data views to the same map. I think I have an idea how you collect sov data, too - and it might explain how / why the map is not as current as most would like. Pity CCP doesn't provide a data-feed (wouldn't have to be live, cached at regular time intervals would work) with all the relevant galactic info, but maybe with projects like this coming out they will consider doing it, who knows? Anyways, great job again, mate.
Slayton Ford Caldari Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.03.06 07:50:00 - [179] This map is really nice. Something to think about though is a exception list for regions so the infulence wont carry over on it. Think Venal or Jove space for example.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.06 07:56:00 - [180] Originally by: Razor Jaxx I think I have an idea how you collect sov data, too - and it might explain how / why the map is not as current as most would like. Out of MachoNet? What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!



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