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Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:05:00 - [631] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Lorz0r Today our 6-man gang got jumped by a 30-40 man fleet. It was a guardian RR gang and we held up quite well against them until their ECM came in. 2 Falcons, 1 Scorp and a Blackbird. They more or less perma jammed everyone in the fleet. Big deal right? Yeah it was as each ship has a minimum of 1 overloaded ECCM module and the guardians have 2. We ALSO had a Remote ECCM Damnation with us. My Sensor strength was 70+, the guardians even higher. Of course as soon as they jammed one of the guards the game was over. We have done just about everything possible to counter ECM and it still doesn't work, theres **** all you can do about it without a gang of remote ECCM ships. your wrong! actually. MOAR FALCONS THAN THEMSEZ! For those of us who try to avoid blob warfare we can't do that ;(. Hell we have a falcon but we only use it as a scout and if we have to in order to escape normally as it's really not fun shooting something that cant shoot back.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:39:00 - [632] What was this damp nerf that I keep hearing about? But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Kilostream Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:51:00 - [633] Originally by: Lorz0r Today our 6-man gang got jumped by a 30-40 man fleet. It was a guardian RR gang and we held up quite well against them until their ECM came in. 2 Falcons, 1 Scorp and a Blackbird. They more or less perma jammed everyone in the fleet. Big deal right? Yeah it was as each ship has a minimum of 1 overloaded ECCM module and the guardians have 2. We ALSO had a Remote ECCM Damnation with us. My Sensor strength was 70+, the guardians even higher. Of course as soon as they jammed one of the guards the game was over. We have done just about everything possible to counter ECM and it still doesn't work, theres **** all you can do about it without a gang of remote ECCM ships. Sounds like you did an admirable job - however, what chance would you expect a 6 man gang to have against a 30-40 man fleet even without Falcons? I'd say game over was a forgone conclusion and, if your 6 man gang had turned over a 30-40 man fleet then there would be something fairly wrong! Moreover what was your Falcon scout doing immediately before you were 'jumped' by the 30-40 man fleet? The problems you encountered in this story may well have been compounded by Falcons, but I'd argue that with proper scouting, combined with swift and effective decision-making your losses could have been mitigated, if not avoided altogether.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:52:00 - [634] Originally by: F0CKER Originally by: Kilostream You (and whiners like you) just don't get it do you? You whined about ECM, it got nerfed, pvp'ers adapted, you still got killed, so you whined about NOS, it got nerfed, pvp'ers adapted, you still got killed, so you whined about dampener, it got nerfed, pvp'ers adapted, you still got killed, now you're back to ECM but whining about it on an ECM-specific ship!.....see a pattern forming? If you are terrible at eve, people who are good at eve will still beat you regardless of game mechanics - what really needs to happen is for you (and yours) to take a little time and responsibility upon yourselves to practice pvp and improve your own gameplay rather than squealing like a stuck pig when those nasty men shoot you. 100% Agree!!!! But the worst thing is that those guys just won't stop whining!! I'm pretty sure CCP keeps track of how many of this or that ship is being used and THAT has an effect on whether or not someting gets nerfed. People are whining about nano. eh. Everyone and their mom has nano'd their ship. Maybe we should do something. Something like that.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.18 02:57:00 - [635] Originally by: Spaztick What was this damp nerf that I keep hearing about? Pre nano, like 2 years ago long ago in a galaxy far far away, Damps were hugely popular, most ships were told to fit a damp or 2, just like ECM, if you had a free slot, fit it, if you didnt, give up something to fit one. Then came the typical CCP DEV balance team blunder, "Lets take something that was a little too useful, and abuse it till nobody wants to use it anymore" So we got scripts, and no more scan res and lock range reduction for 1 module. Bonuses for the lachesis and arazu were put in place but no where near they should be. Ships besides gallente recons no longer fitted damps, damps on the lachesis and arazu are nearly useless, and since most roaming ships are traveling between 3-7 km/s, the warp disruption bonus is useless continually more useless. Back in the day, the arazu was the king of recons, it could point, do hi slot damage and had good drone options, it was the solo ship of choice, the best of the recons. After the onset of nano, and the damp/script changes, there is no real reason to fly one unless in a gang with other recons. The solo capability of the ship was destroyed and pilots could no longer fly it effectively unless it had significant support. The minmatar recons became king as nano took off, the falcon was boosted to help with ze blob and it functions great. The problem lies in the perception. Everyone knew, knows and will always know the falcon is not a solo ship or a ship that can be used in extremely small gangs effectively, and so when ECM was shifted to the BB, Scorp, Falcon, and Rook, nothing changed, it was a flimsy boat with 1 nice and effective niche. When damps were nerfed and CCP screwed up for the hundredth time, they didnt bonus the Lachesis/Arazu to at least buffer this loss in capability by losing the scan res/lock range damp with 1 mod. And now the Rapier/Huginn could be on the verge of becoming obsolete much like the lach/arazu did after scripts. this is the CCP "balance team" stupidity that drives most players nuts, I generally bash CCP, because on most stuff I think they are just ignorant and fully incapabable of balancing the game. The recons tend to be the most difficult because they are specialized. Anything specialized must do what it does better than anything else or its useless, like the AB in PVP. Since they are specialized, they are the most ficle to stupid changes from CCP because they never understand wtf they are doing, which is clearly evident by the lack of pilgrim/arazu pilots. So you have 2 types of people calling for the falcon nerf. 1. Stupid loser noobs who get WTFPWN'd and come on the forums to Role Play about how a ship with no damage, tank or tackle should be allowed the potential to jam other ships. "its not fair that 1 ship could stop others from shooting" These people are the moast irritating. Because, as with the nanonerf they are dumb, ignornat and full of fail. 2. People who look at other recons and compared to the pilgrim/arazu/rapier, the falcon is too powerful. This is "debateable" but let me end that right now. The ship has no damage, no drones, no tackle, no tank, no nano, and in top form can ONLY negate the damage from other 3-5 ships in 0.0 and 6-7 in empire. So enough with the nerf the falcon from this crowd. What group 2 really needs to say is the arazu/pilgrim need slight boosts. And the nano nerf needs to be dumped where the 5 fighters discussion went. end of story
X4N4X	Posted - 2008.08.18 03:27:00 - [636] lol... stop complaining... sounds like someone got blown to bits by one... tough luck... lost a decent fit caracal when i had 10% cap and lost to a griffin.. im not complaining... it was a fair fight...
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.08.18 04:49:00 - [637] Originally by: Matrixcvd stuff Interesting, I mean I suppose that makes sense, but when you say scan and lock range, did you mean that it was a fixed number and they changed it to a percentage or did they just drastically reduce the effectiveness of damps? Seems that it's still useful if you put an appropriate script in them against the right ship. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Djerin Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.18 07:03:00 - [638] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Naomi Knight No they are not they die easily No they don't. You just fail at flying one. No, you just fail at killing them, because you're too stubborn to take the advice given in this thread. ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.08.18 07:55:00 - [639] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Borat Sangdiev its obvious its been a FotM ship for some time. the condom of pvp. nerf it. I jammed and scrammed an assault ship in my badger II and watched it die screaming in fustration. Should badger IIs be nerfed too? heh, isnt that the most glorious feeling? ----------------- Friends Forever
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 12:14:00 - [640] Edited by: Phoibos on 18/08/2008 12:14:59 I think ccp should shutdown the all nerf threads on this forum and only allow constructive ideas if you want something changed in game. Nerf threads with the words nerf this shis its overpowered.... fits a +10 yearsold FPS game.. This forum is filled with so much crap and this really need a change!
CoLe Blackblood Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.18 12:19:00 - [641] Well the whining worked for Nanos...Twice! So why not?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.18 12:45:00 - [642] Originally by: Phoibos Edited by: Phoibos on 18/08/2008 12:14:59 I think ccp should shutdown the all nerf threads on this forum and only allow constructive ideas if you want something changed in game. Nerf threads with the words nerf this shis its overpowered.... fits a +10 yearsold FPS game.. This forum is filled with so much crap and this really need a change! . . . Having played many FPS games I can honestly say it's pretty freakin' rare that you actually hear about people wanting something nerfed. Who can say why? Is it because balance is easier to achieve in a game where player dexterity, reaction time and precision is the ultimate key to victory? Is it because FPS players don't really suffer anything when they get killed by a "possibly out of line" weapon? All MMO's are whine fests on the forums, Eve is not alone in this regard. The only difference is, in Eve death is more than a mild inconvience (OH NOES - I have to repair my armor after I got killed 46 times in WoW!). Take whines with a grain of salt. Most of the time people have zero experience with what they're talking about and only jump on bandwagons. Nano whines are a great example - how many times have you actually fought a Vagabond going 12km/s? I KNOW it's possible to get a Vaga to go that fast but, let's face the music here - not MANY players have the billion isk or two required to pull it off. Reading the nerf threads on nano's you'd think EVERY vagabond was going that fast (and yet, somehow also delivering all of that DPS in spite of the fact that Vaga's don't generate damage beyond their drones and missile launcher at speed). My biggest issue with most whines is people don't want to be given the tools to solve the problem themselves, they want to be handed a solution by the developers - in the form of breaking what works. Asking for a buff to a counter is one thing - you are stating your toolset won't let you complete a certain action. Asking for a nerf is another - you're stating that either 1) The toolset is so dramaticially ineffecient for the task that a nerf would be less game breaking than a buff (not true in this case) or 2) you don't want to make compromises and prefer solutions being handed to you on a silver platter.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:03:00 - [643] Edited by: BiggestT on 18/08/2008 13:03:47 Originally by: Derek Sigres Nano whines are a great example - how many times have you actually fought a Vagabond going 12km/s? I KNOW it's possible to get a Vaga to go that fast but, let's face the music here - not MANY players have the billion isk or two required to pull it off. This.. For example ill show u some typical vaga engagements ive had.. 1 we killed in a blob 2 engaged me in a rater raven once, 1 escaped when backup came while one got ninja'd by a freindly hughin and popped 2 (noobs probably) were too silly to get out of range of my nueting scorp and were hence popped by drakes n cerbs (lol) 1 was a real bastard, we had a nine man gang and cldnt hit him for buckleys, we had webber ceptors, the works, all hed do is pop the ceptors and keep speed tanking us..he got away when dt struck..(we had no minmi recon ) While im all too happy to see that last situation dissapear from the possibilities in EVE, in all truth their not that overpowered, i think ppl just need to fight them more than once with a proper gang and then see if they get owned again before they whine.. Oh and dont nerf falcons (just so im not derailing hehe) edit: typo poudly annoying fc's since 2007 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:11:00 - [644] Take whines with a grain of salt. Most of the time people have zero experience with what they're talking about Thats my point dude with this... if ccp dont allow nerf threads without constructive ideas there would be less headless nerf's in eve its true as people say that nerf scream's works so why not try it again and again... this could nerf the nerfers maybe ccp really need to get out of the evil nerf wheel there in and listen to the good ideas
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:16:00 - [645] BTW I dont give a f... if its similar nerf threads on other mmo's forums could be a very-good idea to try change that then...
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:40:00 - [646] Originally by: Phoibos BTW I dont give a f... if its similar nerf threads on other mmo's forums could be a very-good idea to try change that then... You clearly misunderstood my post. Here's the cliff notes version: 1) Whining is an integral part of the MMO community 2) Most whines are conducted by people with no real experience in the matter, it's just bandwagon hopping. 3) Whining for a nerf is asking for a handout, asking for a boost is requesting the tools to resolve the prolem yourself.
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:48:00 - [647] Edited by: Phoibos on 18/08/2008 13:52:56 tell me something that new something we dont know... sorry if I'm rude but your just stating the obvious I think we are looking for how to make thing better not stating how mmo forum runs in general or stuff like that focus on eve dont look at the other games no need for mmo history
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:53:00 - [648] Edited by: Sirius Problem on 18/08/2008 13:55:52 Originally by: Derek Sigres My biggest issue with most whines is people don't want to be given the tools to solve the problem themselves, they want to be handed a solution by the developers This is just another symptom of the general life attitude that many, not all, young people have today. They don't want to take responsibility and prefer others (Mom, Dad, lawyer, MMO developer) to handle all life's little difficulties and injustices for them. As someone close to amateur sports/athletics up to the Olympic level, you would not believe the crap I've seen when it comes to whining crybabies that feel the system is "unfair". If you think every athlete at the Olympics deserves to be there, based on true merit and skill, think again. ---- Train more. Whine less.
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:55:00 - [649] Edited by: Sirius Problem on 18/08/2008 13:55:30 Double post for an edit??? ---- Train more. Whine less.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:00:00 - [650] Originally by: Derek Sigres My biggest issue with most whines is people don't want to be given the tools to solve the problem themselves, they want to be handed a solution by the developers - in the form of breaking what works. Asking for a buff to a counter is one thing - you are stating your toolset won't let you complete a certain action. Can I haz 500% buff to ECCM? Oh, wait. Buffing one thing nerfs another... Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:06:00 - [651] Originally by: Phoibos Take whines with a grain of salt. Most of the time people have zero experience with what they're talking about Thats my point dude with this... if ccp dont allow nerf threads without constructive ideas there would be less headless nerf's in eve its true as people say that nerf scream's works so why not try it again and again... this could nerf the nerfers maybe ccp really need to get out of the evil nerf wheel there in and listen to the good ideas The foolish sledgehammer nerfs are not the fault of forum posters. That's CCP own poor judgment. A lot of people said before nano's needed nerfing, and suggested reasonable things. CCP ignored all of those, and implemented a completely overbroad set of changes that's not only destroying nano's but messing up BB's and requiring a missile rebalance. It's one thing for posters to suggest an area of the game that needs some attention. It's another for CCP to modify that part of the game in a complete ridiculous manner.
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:12:00 - [652] Edited by: Phoibos on 18/08/2008 14:15:51 Nerf the nerfer's on forum by taking away there right to produse destructive pointless nerf threads allow only nerf threads with a constructive idea why not try it cant hurt a single bit The foolish sledgehammer nerfs are not the fault of forum posters. That's CCP own poor judgment. omg of course as the constructive threads are still so few so saying its not forum posters fault is I well rather strange to say at least
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:21:00 - [653] Originally by: Phoibos Edited by: Phoibos on 18/08/2008 14:16:44 Nerf the nerfer's on forum by taking away there right to produse destructive pointless nerf threads allow only nerf threads with a constructive idea why not try it cant hurt a single bit (The foolish sledgehammer nerfs are not the fault of forum posters. That's CCP own poor judgment. ) omg of course as the constructive threads are still so few so saying its not forum posters fault is I well rather strange to say at least People can say anything they want. What CCP does in response is completely up to CCP. Just because people whine doesn't mean CCP has to create ******ed patches. They can think and act for themselves, and no amount of forum whining changes this. But even if they're just lemmings, there were plenty of good nano-fix suggestions put forth on the forums. They declined to use those apparently, and instead threw every nerf they could think of at the problem. That's CCP's own doing though, not forum posters.
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:29:00 - [654] well why do you think ccp follow the large crowd??!! Obviously because they are afraid to lose subscribers. Thats why it would be good to try eliminate some of the senseless threads.
Jones Bones Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:32:00 - [655] Nerf poasting.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:34:00 - [656] Originally by: Phoibos well why do you think ccp follow the large crowd??!! Obviously because they are afraid to lose subscribers. Thats why it would be good to try eliminate some of the senseless threads. Regulating what people can and can't say, because CCP can't make a reasonable patch, isn't really the solution. That'd be like saying the government will get rid of freedom of speech because we have a bunch of idiots elected to office.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:40:00 - [657] Originally by: Phoibos well why do you think ccp follow the large crowd??!! Obviously because they are afraid to lose subscribers. Thats why it would be good to try eliminate some of the senseless threads. Nah i dont think balancing would end up loosing subscribers. People would quit because of boredom due to no change in pvp system way before they would quit due to their op ships got nerfed back.
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:41:00 - [658] OMFG haha I can smell the freedom activist around the corner lol ok well lets talk politics instead shall we stop the war in iraq!! its eve forum we talk about not goddamn freedom of speech
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:48:00 - [659] Originally by: Spaztick Originally by: Matrixcvd stuff Interesting, I mean I suppose that makes sense, but when you say scan and lock range, did you mean that it was a fixed number and they changed it to a percentage or did they just drastically reduce the effectiveness of damps? Seems that it's still useful if you put an appropriate script in them against the right ship. fixed percentage, now with the scripts its either 1 or the other, either you can increase their lock times, which is only important if they begin the battle, or are jammed/out of targeting range, before you could do both, i believe it was 60% to both before. The difference here is that SD's always hit within their range as apposed to ECM which is chance based. SO the mechnanic was much simpler the effect, much greater. Spaz, the point being is that they are mildly effective, which in terms of PVP, means they are completely useless. you are better off fitting something else, getting into a different recon, or crying for a nerf. Boost to gallente bonuses, Boost amarr fitting, leave everyone else alone. Arazus are good sitting next to a rapier, a RSB arazu is your best option for low/empire gate camping, but thats about it you could right a book on how useless some of the bonuses are and the different ways RECONS are good and bad, especially the TP bonus... anyways... falcons are fine, noobcakes
Phoibos Minmatar Kahi Mohala	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:55:00 - [660] Edited by: Phoibos on 18/08/2008 15:00:38 Naomi Knight ok you tell me what ship in eve is the optimal ship now that cant get killed in a easy way??? I tell you its not a single ship. If you setup correct before you headout in to pvp and you know what type of ship you going for then everything can get killed easy but yea if you then deicide to attack something else with that setup it could be nasty for you and you have a large chance of getting killed. Also speed nerf wont help make pvp more fun the way the game is heading with heavytanks and numbers no skills needed for the single player soon just listen on TS and fire at primary target and its been going on for a very long time. Easy mode for the crowd! thats what it is

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