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Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.02.04 16:53:00 - [1] Amarr are the only race that get a dedicated long range fleet gun incomparable to the other races. Can we please get an equivelant for the other races already. Say a 600mm railgun and 1500mm arty.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.02.04 16:57:00 - [2] I rather have all weapon categories have different weapons than them all being the same. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:07:00 - [3] Then you have a beef with CCP because Tach's are the only weapon that breaks thier pattern.
GO MaZ The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Gierling Then you have a beef with CCP because Tach's are the only weapon that breaks thier pattern. Stop whining and train amarr already.
Brodde Dim Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Gierling Then you have a beef with CCP because Tach's are the only weapon that breaks thier pattern. There are a few more like XL shield boosters etc.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Gierling Amarr are the only race that get a dedicated long range fleet gun incomparable to the other races. Can we please get an equivelant for the other races already. Say a 600mm railgun and 1500mm arty. Fine, as soon as Amarr get something in-between the stupidly weak Dual Heavy Pulse and Mega Pulse. As soon as Caldari get ANY downgrade options WHAT SO EVER! The only "Downgrade" Caldari get is on cruiser sized vessels: Heavy Missiles -> Assault Missiles (Not Heavy Assault) But it actually Its more of a situational weapon system, not a downgrade. As soon as Shield tankers get a midslot Shield extender that gives 3000+ hp. and can be fit onto cruisers. Etc...Etc.. In other worse. Make every race the same!!! Or not... Leave it be. Tachyons have enough drawbacks as it is. Fit Tachyons onto anything but an Apoc and you'll only be able to fire them for 2-3 minutes. not to mention a full rack of them needs at least a tech II RCU just to fit. and another RCU to fit anything else. They also have the shortest range of any long range weapon.
achoura	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:45:00 - [7] I know, lets make everything the same! Then we can all fly the same ship the same way!!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:48:00 - [8] Edited by: Murina on 04/02/2009 17:50:32 Originally by: Last Wolf Fine, as soon as Amarr get something in-between the stupidly weak Dual Heavy Pulse and Mega Pulse. Hello?...mega pulse on amarr BS are as OP to blasters and AC as tachs are to arties and rails.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:51:00 - [9] There are already three models of battleship-class railguns. 425mm rails on a Rokh can already easily shoot past the maximum locking range of 249km. Railgun sniper BSes already have a hard time fitting a full rack of 425s along with a reasonable sniper fit because powergrid is too tight. And you want to add a bigger model that will in all likelyhood shoot farther and require more powergrid? I could almost see CCP introducing a third model of artillery for every sub-capital ship class but it wouldn't necessarily be a bigger model.
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.04 18:19:00 - [10] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 04/02/2009 17:50:32 Originally by: Last Wolf Fine, as soon as Amarr get something in-between the stupidly weak Dual Heavy Pulse and Mega Pulse. Hello?...mega pulse on amarr BS are as OP to blasters and AC as tachs are to arties and rails. this was just a sytax error on his part. As soon as Amarr gets somthing in between the stupidly weak DHP and the (stupidly strong) MEga pulse. and all the weapon systems are fine. "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 18:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Vanthropy and all the weapon systems are fine. As long as and especially if you fly amarr...... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.04 20:27:00 - [12] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 04/02/2009 20:28:55 Originally by: Gierling Amarr are the only race that get a dedicated long range fleet gun incomparable to the other races. Can we please get an equivelant for the other races already. Say a 600mm railgun and 1500mm arty. try fitting tachyons and msg me ingame with a list of amarr ships where you can fit t2 tachs decently except mb paladin and nightmare, and even then you require hardwirings and/or fitting mods just to squeeze them in on those two.. also, armor tanking is low slot same as pg mods. oh yeah.. and... the capacitor is empty, and tracking? gotta love complaints without noting the context to their usage.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 20:42:00 - [13] Originally by: 7shining7one7 try fitting tachyons Done, the apoc can hit at max with them, no gallente BS or mini BS can do the same. Originally by: 7shining7one7 also, armor tanking is low slot same as pg mods. So are rig slots pal, anyway range is the snipers tank and as such the rokh and apoc have the best BS sniper tanks in game by far. Originally by: 7shining7one7 the capacitor is empty It can be made cap stable or at least as stable as gallente sniper BS that have considerably less range and reload cycles. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and tracking? They have better tracking than rails or arties. Originally by: 7shining7one7 gotta love complaints without noting the context to their usage. Gotta love fools who do not even research the crap they post....
7shining7one7 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.04 20:56:00 - [14] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 04/02/2009 20:57:07 you need the rigs aswell as low slots to fit tachs unless you plan to vapour tank.. wtb cap stable tachyon sniping apoc that doesn't require rigs or hardwirings. arties are capless, rails do kin/therm, the best all round dmg type combination in game, lasers do em/therm and has more range and less reload to compensate, and cap issues. more base tracking but less if you don't want to gimp your fit.. grats you found a humongus list containing 1 ship that can successfully fit tachyons in a sniper fit run to the forum mobile... obviously tach's are overpowered cause they are viable as sniper setup on 1 ship cause sniping doesn't require any tank or mid/low slot variation, and can barely be fitted on other ships. do call the ccp hotline. something must be done. ps. train em armor compensation V.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:06:00 - [15] Originally by: 7shining7one7 you need the rigs aswell as low slots to fit tachs unless you plan to vapour tank.. wtb cap stable tachyon sniping apoc that doesn't require rigs or hardwirings. As commented on range in a sniper = tank, and do you have a phobia against rigs?. Originally by: 7shining7one7 arties are capless, rails do kin/therm, the best all round dmg type combination in game, lasers do em/therm and has more range and less reload to compensate, and cap issues. Arties can hardy hit even at 200km, kin and therm dmg is no better than em/therm it just depends on what you are shooting at and how it is tanked. Cap and reload are not issues when fitting a sniper apoc correctly. Originally by: 7shining7one7 more base tracking but less if you don't want to gimp your fit.. Nope always more tracking vs range actually....
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:02:00 - [16] Edited by: Last Wolf on 04/02/2009 22:04:45 Originally by: Murina Done, the apoc can hit at max with them, no gallente BS or mini BS can do the same with their respective weapons no matter the fit. So? What Exactly is your point? The Apoc and Rokh can snipe? OMG, they have sniping bonuses, how dare they snipe better than ships without them!!!!! The eagle/vulture can hit to 200km with MEDIUM turrets. Not other medium sized ships can do that. The Dominix/Ishtar can get 500 DPS from tech II sentries and Rigs, Not other ships can do that. Minmatar Ships can web out to 40km, No other race can do that. Gallente Ships can warp scram out to 60km, No other Race can do that God, you're like that stupid spoiled brat in the toy store that screams and whines and cries for no other reason but to scream and whine and cry. Originally by: Murina It can be made cap stable or at least as stable as gallente sniper BS that have considerably less range and reload cycles. What the hell? Beams are the SHORTEST RANGE LONG RANGE weapon. You're comparing them as-if they have the Apoc's bonus built right into them and they work like that on all ships. Heres some fits. I tried to fit them for 180+km optimal and 70k+ EHP with MWD [Rokh, Sniper-DDD Tank] Reactor Control Unit II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] DPS: 273 (With Reload time included) 285 without Aplha: 1597 ROF: 5.6 seconds Tracking: 0.00329 Optimal: 224km Falloff: 30km Targeting: 226km EHP: 90,295 [Apocalypse, Sniper-DDD Tank] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Tracking Enhancer II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Needs +3% CPU implant to work. DPS: 243 Alpha:2186 ROF: 9.0 Optimal: 200km Falloff: 25km Targeting: 205km EHP: 75,863 Anyways. I fail to see how Tachyons are so overpowered? They each have their pros and cons. Fitting them on a ship with similar bonuses the Rails outperform the Tachyons In every area except tracking, which means jack-**** at those ranges, and Alpha. And rails are stupidly easier to fit on the ships designed for them than Tachyons (Even Mega Beams) are on their ships. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Last Wolf So? What Exactly is your point? The Apoc and Rokh can snipe? That is the point emo boy, the other races should have a sniper BS as well or tachs should be nerfed a little as range is the caldari area as the eagle and vulture show. Either that or the bonus on the apoc needs changing.. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:09:00 - [18] I'll Compare the Abaddon/Armageddon to the Hyperion/Megathron If you'd like. But It would still be the same. Rails would do the same or similar damage do to being able to use Damage mods instead of fitting mods. Rails have longer range, and hell of a lot more cap stable. Oh, but Beams have more tracking, so they are obviously overpowered because we all know how important tracking is at 200km!!!!!! (Err I mean 170km, because that is about as far as you'll get Beams on a non-apoc.) Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Grista	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:12:00 - [19] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Gierling Then you have a beef with CCP because Tach's are the only weapon that breaks thier pattern. Stop whining and train amarr already. Formerly T2 Tempest now T2 Apoc pilot checking in.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:13:00 - [20] Edited by: Murina on 04/02/2009 22:15:21 Originally by: Last Wolf I'll Compare the Abaddon/Armageddon to the Hyperion/Megathron If you'd like. Why would you fly sniper fitted Abaddon/Armageddons with beams when you have the option of the apoc, are you stupid?. While gallente and mini have the option of????....oh thats right they do not have a range bonused sniper BS that can hit at max like amarr have.

Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 04/02/2009 22:15:21 Originally by: Last Wolf I'll Compare the Abaddon/Armageddon to the Hyperion/Megathron If you'd like. Why would you fly sniper fitted Abaddon/Armageddons with beams when you have the option of the apoc, are you stupid?. While gallente and mini have the option of????....oh thats right they do not have a range bonused sniper BS that can hit at max like amarr have. So? No other race has an E-war based Battleship. No other race has a drone based Battleship. No other race has a tracking Bonused Battleship. No other race has a split weapon system Battleship. It seems you just want everything to be grouped together. Here this should make you happy. Races and all but one ship have now been removed. There is now only 4 skills. Ship Guns Tank Speed
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 04/02/2009 22:15:21 Originally by: Last Wolf I'll Compare the Abaddon/Armageddon to the Hyperion/Megathron If you'd like. Why would you fly sniper fitted Abaddon/Armageddons with beams when you have the option of the apoc, are you stupid?. While gallente and mini have the option of????....oh thats right they do not have a range bonused sniper BS that can hit at max like amarr have. Last I checked, there's no two races that can perform equally as well in any role. You can fit x8 Nuets on a Domi, but it doesn't perform equally as a Curse... I demand the Domi be limited to 2 Nuets/Nos and the Curse to be given 100mb/bandwidth, there, neener-neener!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:29:00 - [23] Edited by: Murina on 04/02/2009 22:39:01 Originally by: Last Wolf No other race has an..... So your saying that no other race should share the racial characteristics of another?... Range is the caldari characteristic as far as range/sniper ships are concerned as was clearly pointed out with the examples of the eagle, vulture rokh ect ect.. Nice to see you supporting the apoc amarr/nerf, especially considering im more about buffing than nerfing but hey some ppl cannot help but be negative i suppose. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Xoth Freefall Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Last Wolf Edited by: Last Wolf on 04/02/2009 22:04:45 What the hell? Beams are the SHORTEST RANGE LONG RANGE weapon. Can you post a tempest or maelstorm artillery fit that can reach 200km optimal with comparable ehp to one of the setups you posted? Thanks
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:52:00 - [25] i can't believe that there are people posting about the mega not being good enough of a snipe. No realistic fc is going to have you shooing from more than about 210 km, and all but the tempest can hit that well enough
Grarr Dexx Amarr Divinity's Edge	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:01:00 - [26] You're not limited to your races' default skillsets. Crosstrain if you want the advantages. Let me see how much you'll be rooting for Tachyons if you have trouble fitting 7 on an apoc with AWU 5 and an RCU. And don't get me started on the cap.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Grarr Dexx You're not limited to your races' default skillsets. Crosstrain if you want the advantages. Or just train amarr as they seem to have a niche ship that slots into every other races "advantaged area" rather nicely.... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:31:00 - [28] Edited by: fuxinos on 04/02/2009 23:32:49 Originally by: Gierling Amarr are the only race that get a dedicated long range fleet gun incomparable to the other races. Can we please get an equivelant for the other races already. Say a 600mm railgun and 1500mm arty. You already have with hybrids. Dual 250mm Rails, 350mm Rails, 425mm Rails are hybrid bs-class sniper-weapons. Minmatar have 3 bs-class closerange weapons ( Dual 425mm, Dual 650mm and 800mm ) therfor and Amarr only 2 ( Dual Heavy Pulse and Mega Pulse ).
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:40:00 - [29] Originally by: fuxinos You already have with hybrids. Dual 250mm Rails, 350mm Rails, 425mm Rails are hybrid bs-class sniper-weapons. And no matter how many tracking comps gallente ships or mini ships fit they can never reach the range that tachs do.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:43:00 - [30] Edited by: fuxinos on 04/02/2009 23:44:24 Edited by: fuxinos on 04/02/2009 23:43:05 Originally by: Murina Originally by: fuxinos You already have with hybrids. Dual 250mm Rails, 350mm Rails, 425mm Rails are hybrid bs-class sniper-weapons. And no matter how many tracking comps gallente ships or mini ships fit they can never reach the range that tachs do. 425mm with max Skills and Spike (unbonused) have 130km optimal + 30km Falloff and Tachs with Aurora have 119km optimal and 25km falloff (unbonused). Thx. Its more like Gallente lack a ship with rangebonus rather then the weapons being imbalanced.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:59:00 - [31] Originally by: fuxinos Its more like Gallente lack a ship with rangebonus rather then the weapons being imbalanced. WTF do you think this thread is about, a module on the market is not the issue its how it works and is balanced when fitted on ships and this one because of either a ship bonus or its basic stats is broken.
ZW Dewitt	Posted - 2009.02.05 00:05:00 - [32] Translation: "I didn't train FOTM, please fix!"
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 00:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Murina Originally by: fuxinos You already have with hybrids. Dual 250mm Rails, 350mm Rails, 425mm Rails are hybrid bs-class sniper-weapons. And no matter how many tracking comps gallente ships or mini ships fit they can never reach the range that tachs do. no matter how many tracking comps minmatar or ammar ships fit they can can never reach the range of an eagle.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 00:12:00 - [34] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 00:14:11 Originally by: Graalum Originally by: Murina Originally by: fuxinos You already have with hybrids. Dual 250mm Rails, 350mm Rails, 425mm Rails are hybrid bs-class sniper-weapons. And no matter how many tracking comps gallente ships or mini ships fit they can never reach the range that tachs do. no matter how many tracking comps minmatar or ammar ships fit they can can never reach the range of an eagle. Nor can gallente bud. Now the moa, eagle, vulture, ferox and rokh all have range bonuses as well. That is cos caldari are the sniper bonused ship race and also why the apoc hitting at max is broken as gallente and mini do not have a sniper bonused BS....thanks for the confirmation.
achoura	Posted - 2009.02.05 00:13:00 - [35] Edited by: achoura on 05/02/2009 00:12:48 /me props the "do not feed the troll" sign against the wall.
Ali Night	Posted - 2009.02.05 03:18:00 - [36] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Last Wolf So? What Exactly is your point? The Apoc and Rokh can snipe? That is the point emo boy, the other races should have a sniper BS as well or tachs should be nerfed a little as range is the caldari area as the eagle and vulture show. Either that or the bonus on the apoc needs changing.. Murina, there is a definate reason why the Gallente and Matar dont have and never will have a dedicated sniper battleship. You want to know why? IT'S NOT IN THEIR IDIOM!!! Gall and Minnie are the close range races, that's where they excel, so there is no reason for them to have a dedicated sniper bs.
Malovich Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.05 03:37:00 - [37] Originally by: Ali Night Originally by: Murina Originally by: Last Wolf So? What Exactly is your point? The Apoc and Rokh can snipe? That is the point emo boy, the other races should have a sniper BS as well or tachs should be nerfed a little as range is the caldari area as the eagle and vulture show. Either that or the bonus on the apoc needs changing.. Murina, there is a definate reason why the Gallente and Matar dont have and never will have a dedicated sniper battleship. You want to know why? IT'S NOT IN THEIR IDIOM!!! Gall and Minnie are the close range races, that's where they excel, so there is no reason for them to have a dedicated sniper bs. This. Now, if you want to argue that Amarr ships are much stronger at close ranges now than Blaster and AC ships, that's one thing. To whine that races predicated on close-range engagements don't have a long-range ship is a bit...odd. Notice that fictionally, the Amarr Empire and Caldari State are allies? Hmmm...almost like the Gallente and Minmatar are. And those pairings share similar tactics with the Caldari and Amarr having snipers? The DEVIL you say...
Nichola Kreed	Posted - 2009.02.05 03:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 00:48:16 Originally by: Graalum no matter how many tracking comps minmatar or ammar ships fit they can can never reach the range of an eagle. Nor can gallente ships bud. Now the merlin(frig),harpy(AF) moa(cruiser), eagle(hac), vulture(CS), ferox(BC) and rokh(BS) all have range bonuses as well, see the pattern???. That is cos caldari are the range bonused ship race and also why the apoc hitting at max is broken as gallente and mini do not have a sniper bonused BS....thanks for the confirmation. speak in a player's way retrbution, zealot, apoc all have range bonues why ur gal ship have damage bonues while amarr suck with cap use age bonues speaks in an amarr's way your race is low and suck, you ought to be slave
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 09:36:00 - [39] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 09:45:19 Originally by: Ali Night Murina, there is a definate reason why the Gallente and Matar dont have and never will have a dedicated sniper battleship. You want to know why? IT'S NOT IN THEIR IDIOM!!! Gall and Minnie are the close range races, that's where they excel, so there is no reason for them to have a dedicated sniper bs. So why the hell give them rail guns and arties, do not talk about roles and idioms when its all about amarr staying OP and just happening to assign them roles and idioms that overlap into the other races areas. While assigning roles and "idioms" to other races that just happen to limit them. There is no reason NOT to give them a sniper BS, 2 dedicated blaster BS is a waste of a ship and other than amarr players wanting to stay OP compared to other races by having a niche ship for virtually every range, giving gallente and mini a sniper BS each takes nothing away from amarr. Originally by: Nichola Kreed retrbution, zealot, apoc all have range bonues And as i said giving gallente and mini a sniper BS takes nothing away from amarr unless the ppl using it are all about staying OP compared to the rest of the races that is.... Originally by: Nichola Kreed why ur gal ship have damage bonues while amarr suck with cap use age bonues Its not a useless cap bonus its part of the formula of lasers and their ships and a way to give each ship x amount of bonuses. Because ccp wanna give the illusion of different systems, but the truth is that with instant reload and the dmg mod slack on lasers already taken up by the guns modifier and ammo a dmg bonus on the ships themselves is not needed. They gave the guns and ammo the dmg mod in their stats while giving the guns cap issues and solving that by giving the ships cap bonuses. It is just another way of getting to the same point while giving all ships the same number of bonuses....how can you not know or understand that?.
SturmTurm Amarr Armored Fist	Posted - 2009.02.05 11:03:00 - [40] I sense the whine is strong in this One ........

Leiara Knight Gallente The Oblivion Guard	Posted - 2009.02.05 11:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Gierling Amarr are the only race that get a dedicated long range fleet gun incomparable to the other races. Can we please get an equivelant for the other races already. Say a 600mm railgun and 1500mm arty. After a moment's pause for thought, I find this an excellent suggestion. It could turn any slinking battleship into a Marauder-for-the-masses. Think of all the salvagers you could fit in those power-starved utility slots!
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.02.05 11:52:00 - [42] Think of it that way: 1. Gayllentes would need to give up a ship then, Megathron or Hyperion. Hyperion as sniper looks ugly and who wants to lose his OMGWTFBBQBLASTERTHRON? 2. Since Minmatar have a lot of damagebonis on their ships and to lose one of them to optimalbonus on Maelstrom or Tempest, would kick their dps into Frigateclass. You see? There isnt much that CCP can do about it.
Leiara Knight Gallente The Oblivion Guard	Posted - 2009.02.05 11:54:00 - [43] Originally by: fuxinos Hyperion as sniper looks ugly You, sir, are out of line!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 12:28:00 - [44] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 12:30:30 Originally by: fuxinos 1. Gayllentes would need to give up a ship then, Megathron or Hyperion. Hyperion as sniper looks ugly and who wants to lose his OMGWTFBBQBLASTERTHRON? Looks aint everything and both ships bonuses and stats can be reworked very easily. Originally by: fuxinos 2. Since Minmatar have a lot of damagebonis on their ships and to lose one of them to optimalbonus on Maelstrom or Tempest, would kick their dps into Frigateclass. Cos bonuses to ships modules or ammo cannot be adjusted?.... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.02.05 12:40:00 - [45] Abbaddon with tachyons out alpha's the maelstrom with 1400 mm's, yes I know it has to sacrifice some tank for that's what flexibility is..... You gotta admit that something's wrong with that when you consider minmatar are supposed to be the masters of flexibility and alpha. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Julio Torres Phantom Squad	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:04:00 - [46] The tachyon is not a unique weapon. Comparing guns: Mega Beam equals 350mm Rail Gun, 1200mm Arty Tachyon equals 425mm Rail Gun, 1400mm Arty
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:13:00 - [47] Originally by: Julio Torres The tachyon is not a unique weapon. Comparing guns: Mega Beam equals 350mm Rail Gun, 1200mm Arty Tachyon equals 425mm Rail Gun, 1400mm Arty Not as far as tracking is concerned and not when each system are fitted on their respective races BS, tachs on the sniper apoc > any gallente or mini fitted sniper. Caldari have 3 very different BS including a highly effective sniper, amarr do as well, while gallente have 2 blaster ships and a drone boat (that is 1 blaster ship too many). And mini......lets just not go there. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Julio Torres Phantom Squad	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Julio Torres The tachyon is not a unique weapon. Comparing guns: Mega Beam equals 350mm Rail Gun, 1200mm Arty Tachyon equals 425mm Rail Gun, 1400mm Arty Not as far as tracking is concerned and not when each system are fitted on their respective races BS, tachs on the sniper apoc > any gallente or mini fitted sniper. Caldari have 3 very different BS including a highly effective sniper, amarr do as well, while gallente have 2 blaster ships and a drone boat (that is 1 blaster ship too many). And mini......lets just not go there. Sorry, but this discussion is about guns, not racial ships.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:19:00 - [49] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 13:22:47 Originally by: Julio Torres Originally by: Murina Originally by: Julio Torres The tachyon is not a unique weapon. Comparing guns: Mega Beam equals 350mm Rail Gun, 1200mm Arty Tachyon equals 425mm Rail Gun, 1400mm Arty Not as far as tracking is concerned and not when each system are fitted on their respective races BS, tachs on the sniper apoc > any gallente or mini fitted sniper. Caldari have 3 very different BS including a highly effective sniper, amarr do as well, while gallente have 2 blaster ships and a drone boat (that is 1 blaster ship too many). And mini......lets just not go there. Sorry, but this discussion is about guns, not racial ships. Cos you get such great wrecking shots, range and dps off guns on the market or stuck in a can in your hangar?.....How the f** can you not apply the effects from the ships these weapons are fitted to into the calculations used to balance them ffs... Stop posting this discussion is obviously over your head. Originally by:** Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Viktoryia Vansen	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:25:00 - [50] Quote: Caldari have 3 very different BS including a highly effective sniper, amarr do as well, while gallente have 2 blaster ships and a drone boat (that is 1 blaster ship too many). And mini......lets just not go there. - I'll take one of the blasterboats plz, or the droneboat.. oh darn now I have to crosstrain..

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:32:00 - [51] Originally by: Viktoryia Vansen Quote: Caldari have 3 very different BS including a highly effective sniper, amarr do as well, while gallente have 2 blaster ships and a drone boat (that is 1 blaster ship too many). And mini......lets just not go there. - I'll take one of the blasterboats plz, or the droneboat.. oh darn now I have to crosstrain.. Why?....., if your amarr your pulse BS hits much harder than the domi and has the range of its drones without travel time. And pulse BS hit almost as hard as the blaster ships under 10km (some harder just under 10km) while out damaging the blaster ships by a huge amount over 10km and out ranging them by a massive amount as well... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Viktoryia Vansen	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:58:00 - [52] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Viktoryia Vansen Quote: Caldari have 3 very different BS including a highly effective sniper, amarr do as well, while gallente have 2 blaster ships and a drone boat (that is 1 blaster ship too many). And mini......lets just not go there. - I'll take one of the blasterboats plz, or the droneboat.. oh darn now I have to crosstrain.. Why?....., if your amarr your pulse BS hits much harder than the domi and has the range of its drones without travel time. And pulse BS hit almost as hard as the blaster ships under 10km (some harder just under 10km) while out damaging the blaster ships by a huge amount over 10km and out ranging them by a massive amount as well... What Im saying is every race BS has their pro's and con's, else there would be no need for more then one race. - Caldari, range, no BS droneboat but the only ECM BS and dedicated missileboat. - Amarr, good dps, both range and upclose, no BS droneboat. - Minm, good dps, speed (well kind of), some range, jack of all trades, typhoon droneboat? - Gallente, up close, (ok, no range to speak of, but I think they are up for a boost next) but hey lookie here, the only dedicated droneboat.. Diversity ftw..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Viktoryia Vansen - Caldari, range, no BS droneboat but the only ECM BS and dedicated missileboat. - Amarr, good dps, both range and upclose, no BS droneboat. - Minm, good dps, speed (well kind of), some range, jack of all trades, typhoon droneboat? - Gallente, up close, (ok, no range to speak of, but I think they are up for a boost next) but hey lookie here, the only dedicated droneboat.. A lack of a drone boat is hardly summat you miss when your guns can hit as far and for twice the dps without the travel time. And even so we are talking about sniper fits and the fact that neither mini or gallente have a max range sniper BS (but both gal and mini seem to have a redundant BS each) while amarr and caldari do have a max range sniper as well as close and mid range boats.
Viktoryia Vansen	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:24:00 - [54] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Viktoryia Vansen - Caldari, range, no BS droneboat but the only ECM BS and dedicated missileboat. - Amarr, good dps, both range and upclose, no BS droneboat. - Minm, good dps, speed (well kind of), some range, jack of all trades, typhoon droneboat? - Gallente, up close, (ok, no range to speak of, but I think they are up for a boost next) but hey lookie here, the only dedicated droneboat.. A lack of a drone boat is hardly summat you miss when your guns can hit as far and for twice the dps without the travel time. And even so we are talking about sniper fits and the fact that neither mini or gallente have a max range sniper BS (but both gal and mini seem to have a redundant BS each) while amarr and caldari do have a max range sniper as well as close and mid range boats. Uhm, I hear you, but then again as others have pointed out already, life isnt fair. - now what to do about those upclose mega's .. hmm ok, maybe get a Caldari BC?, maybe fit blasters on a ferox?.. - yes, one of the best sniper bs's so either that or missiles.. hmm .. guess I have issues upclose.. what?? I cant have everything?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:33:00 - [55] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 14:36:41 Originally by: Viktoryia Vansen Uhm, I hear you, but then again as others have pointed out already, life isnt fair. And the latest news is that eve aint life and systems get balanced and fixed in it all the time, and sniper fits is on the list of things that need balancing either with a amarr nerf (not prefered i hate nerfs) or a mini/gallente buff/adjustment (much better option). Originally by: Viktoryia Vansen - now what to do about those upclose mega's .. hmm ok, maybe get a Caldari BC?, maybe fit blasters on a ferox?.. - yes, one of the best sniper bs's so either that or missiles.. hmm .. guess I have issues upclose.. what?? I cant have everything? Im not sure wtf this rant is supposed to be saying, i suggest you speak out loud before you post in future cos having a one sided conversation with a voice in your head does not translate onto a posted forum particularly well.....
Viktoryia Vansen	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:41:00 - [56] Quote: Im not sure wtf this rant is supposed to be saying, i suggest you speak out load before you post in future cos having a one sided conversation with a voice in your head does not translate onto a posted forum particularly well..... thats of topic, dude. I only tried to show you my point of view without stepping on someones toes, I guess its to late for that, no need to be rude. And, the onesided convo, I guess you'll have that now. Fly safe
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Julio Torres Sorry, but this discussion is about guns, not racial ships. Cos you get such great wrecking shots, range and dps off guns on the market or stuck in a can in your hangar?.....How the f**** can you not apply the effects from the ships these weapons are fitted to into the calculations used to balance them ffs... That's a distinction between the weapon's statistics, and the ships' modifiers. If you change a weapon's attributes then you change its performance on any ship that fits it. If however you change a particular ship's bonuses that's a completely different approach. The title of this thread, and the OP itself, posited that Tachyons were effectively a tier above other racial top-tier long-range turrets. Through looking at the statistics other posters have made it clear that tachyons themselves are comparable to 1400mm arties or 425mm rails. Your issue seems to be that Gallente and Minmatar should have a sniper battleship. That is in itself a perfectly valid thing to suggest, but it in no way indicates that the statistics of tachs should be affected. Tachyons on an Apoc outrange/outperform rails on a Mega, because of the Apoc's bonuses, not because of the tachyon's stats. To drop a little reduction ad absurdum, let's assume that Minmatar do get a sniper battleship and it gets 25% range boost per level. It can now hit out to 170km (+ decent falloff) with faction Fusion ammo in 1400s, vastly outranging/outdamaging all other snipers. Would we complain that the 1400mm arties were overpowered and other races turrets should be made equivalent? Clearly the imbalance is with the sniper ship itself, not the turret. Same story with tachs on an Apoc, it's the Apoc that makes them good rather than the turrets themselves being natively superior.
Malovich Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:57:00 - [58] It once again boils down to asking for a Gallente sniper is foolish, because the Gallente style of combat is not sniping. It's up-close combat with blasters and drones. Now, you can make a strong case that those are under performing and need some help since the speed nerf and that the Amarr should not be able to compete with the Gallente in toe-to-toe combat, but that's not the discussion you're trying to have. You're trying to say that all races should have even abilities at all ranges, and that's simply not how this game is set up...nor should it be adjusted to reflect that. If you fly Caldari, you're pretty much looking at range as your best weapon with missiles and rails. Yes, you can fit blasters on ships, but even the few which are effective are coincidentally outperformed by their Gallente counterparts. Who do you bet on between a blaster Ferox or a Brutix? The Amarr work in the medium ranges. Yes, if you build around sniping you can make a sniper, but it's still an extension of the way they fight. They're not good close-in ships, they're medium to long range. Again, that last aspect might need re-balancing of some sort, but this is not what you're asking for. Then you have the Minmatar, who you could make an argument should have some sort of sniper BS. However, the Minmatar philosophy is "I will never do what you do better than you, but I will do more than you" (i.e. - that much vaunted "flexibility"). Their sniper ships, as a result, would be sub-par because the Minmatar don't have anything "best in class"...their strength stems from the fact that their ship will do something you can't do as well, and then using that advantage to beat you. With a sniper, you have one thing and one thing alone: Range. If you can't compete fully with range, it's a useless setup and nobody would really want to fly it. There's no other utilities that can be brought to bear at 100KM+ ranges, so staying within the Minmatar design balance unfortunately precludes them having a sniper ship. You can create a sub-par sniper...which is pretty much what they have. You can get a Typhoon to hit some rather extreme ranges, just not with guns. Welcome to being Minmatar...the neighbor's grass will always be greener. Again, if you want to make the argument that the Gallente philosophy is underpowered now and needs adjustments, that's fine. Arguing that the short-range race should be given a long-range ship is just needless homogenizing of the races.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:58:00 - [59] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 15:03:06 Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: Murina Originally by: Julio Torres Sorry, but this discussion is about guns, not racial ships. Cos you get such great wrecking shots, range and dps off guns on the market or stuck in a can in your hangar?.....How the f**** can you not apply the effects from the ships these weapons are fitted to into the calculations used to balance them ffs... That's a distinction between the weapon's statistics, and the ships' modifiers. If you change a weapon's attributes then you change its performance on any ship that fits it. If however you change a particular ship's bonuses that's a completely different approach. Whatever..., the title may be poorly thought out but the problem is no less relevant, gallente and mini need a sniper BS and they do not need 2 BS of almost the same abilities (as in the mega/hyperion are both blaster ships so one is almost redundant). You cannot deny giving a sniper BS to gallente or mini because of silly made up "roles" that just happen to give amarr a good close, medium and long range ship while limiting gal and mini. Even the rokh with its range bonus does not turn blasters into med range weapons so ppl who worry about blaster gallente BS becoming overpowered cos of a range bonus are kidding themselves......it only would really effect rails..
Heriom Gallente Middleton and Mercer LLP Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:02:00 - [60] Edited by: Heriom on 05/02/2009 15:03:21 Originally by: Murina Im not sure wtf this rant is supposed to be saying, i suggest you speak out loud before you post in future cos having a one sided conversation with a voice in your head does not translate onto a posted forum particularly well..... S/He only wants what s/he wants. May as well hit yourself in the head as argue with it. By the time your done though, you could probably have a conversation with it.

Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Typhado3 Edited by: Typhado3 on 05/02/2009 12:54:09 Abbaddon with tachyons out alpha's the maelstrom with 1400 mm's, yes I know it has to sacrifice some tank for that's it, thats what flexibility is..... You gotta admit that something's wrong with that when you consider minmatar are supposed to be the masters of flexibility and alpha. That is because the Maelstrom has A ROF bonus and the Abaddon has a Damage bonus. Arties still have the highest alpha of any weapon. It takes a 25% bonus to damage to push tachyons just barely higher than arties. Originally by: Typhado3 as for those who say no one can ever use tachyons cause of fitting problems here are some kill board links.... now pls for the love of god don't drag coad **** in here cause of those links. Lol, did you even LOOK at those kills you posted? They prove my point. Apocs can fit 8 guns yet in ALL THREE of those links you posted they only had 7 Tachyons fitted and left their 8th high free and yet they STILL needed a Tech II Reactor Control (+15%) to fit it all! Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Kirtan Loor Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:36:00 - [62] OP please change the title of the thread. What you are trying to show is the absence of range bonus on gallente and minmatar ships. The weapons do not play a role in this discussion as they are more or less matched. As for lacking range bonus: Most sniping fleets are made of mixed type of battleships. The FC guides the fleet by warping to the longest range hittable by the majority of the fleet. That means, you never need to hit 200k+ unless the fleet is composed of Rokh's and Apoc's. That also means you don't need to put tracking enhanchers and other stuff to get to the nominal fleet range (160-180k)on your rokh and apoc. You can put RCU's and/or additional tank on these slots and become DD immune. Sniping ships for gallente and minmatar: Range bonus and damage bonus really shouldn't be together. Would you give up on damage bonus on mega or hype for a range bonus? I'm sure I would not. Mayyyyybe on tempest...a range bonus instead of rof bonus. Artilleries suck anyway why not boost their range?
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:16:00 - [63] Originally by: Gartel Reiman The title of this thread, and the OP itself, posited that Tachyons were effectively a tier above other racial top-tier long-range turrets. Through looking at the statistics other posters have made it clear that tachyons themselves are comparable to 1400mm arties or 425mm rails. I haven't really seen any numbers, but possibly I missed them. The only claim that I have seen in this thread is that "there are three large beam types and there are three large rail types and the two artillery types correspond like this because I say so" and I'm a bit allergic to argumentation like that. Here there be some numbers: Unmodified stats. 1400mm arty II: Optimal 48km Falloff 35km RoF 23.625s DamMod 7.245 DoT (DamMod / RoF) 0.30667 Tracking 0.009 425mm rail II: Optimal 57.6km Falloff 24km RoF 9.563 DamMod 3.3 DoT (DamMod / RoF) 0.345 Tracking 0.00962 Tach II: Optimal 52.8km Falloff 20km RoF 12.5s DamMod 5.4 DoT (DamMod / RoF) 0.432 Tracking 0.01392 And the comparison. Tach vs 1400mm: Optimal +10% Falloff -43% DoT +41% Tracking +55% Tach vs 425mm: Optimal -8% Falloff -17% DoT +25% Tracking +45% These are supposed to be same tier guns? Tachyons have a quarter to 40% more damage, about half again better tracking, similar range. Nuh-uh. I personally agree with you in that I think that the guns itself are reasonably balanced by their fitting costs and cap use and it's the Apoc that is the problem, though. -- Gradient forum
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:37:00 - [64] Originally by: Murina Originally by: fuxinos You already have with hybrids. Dual 250mm Rails, 350mm Rails, 425mm Rails are hybrid bs-class sniper-weapons. And no matter how many tracking comps gallente ships or mini ships fit they can never reach the range that tachs do. You clearly don't know much about gallente snipers: [Hyperion, Fleet sniper] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Internal Force Field Array I Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Ancillary Current Router I Ionic Field Projector I 357 dps at 191km + 30 falloff, 77k EHP, so subtract a bit of dps a bit of falloff and a bit of EHP due to more common skill levels, but this is easily comparable to the Apoc. [Megathron, Fleet sniper] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Internal Force Field Array I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 100MN MicroWarpdrive II [empty high slot] 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Ancillary Current Router I 312 dps at 191km + 30 falloff, 77k EHP. Do you detect a pattern? It is true that minmatar can't hit at 200km (well, with much more than 100 dps), but that is 4 ships that can hit out there, of which only one is amarr shockhorrorcallthewaahmbulance . FCs often don't use the 200km benchmark for this reason incidentally (geddon/baddon/mael/temp can't hit properly at it), and the 150km is more common, at which range it is a pretty level playing field.
Noobie Noobsen Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:40:00 - [65] its really nice to read that stuff from murina. gallente were so nber a few months ago and amarr down. but after some patches, amarr seems to be fotm und gallentes want some love. its long time ago amarr was fotm, good ol¦ times
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Gartel Reiman The title of this thread, and the OP itself, posited that Tachyons were effectively a tier above other racial top-tier long-range turrets. Through looking at the statistics other posters have made it clear that tachyons themselves are comparable to 1400mm arties or 425mm rails. I haven't really seen any numbers, but possibly I missed them. Bottom post on page 1 summed it up quite well: Originally by: fuxinos 425mm with max Skills and Spike (unbonused) have 130km optimal + 30km Falloff and Tachs with Aurora have 119km optimal and 25km falloff (unbonused). Its more like Gallente lack a ship with rangebonus rather then the weapons being imbalanced.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:56:00 - [67] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 17:57:30 Originally by: Captator Hype 357 dps at 191km + 30 falloff. Mega 312 dps at 191km + 30 falloff, 77k EHP. Do you detect a pattern? Yup, like i said gallente have 2 BS that apart from a slight and rather unimportant slot difference and bonus are way too like each other. One of them is pointless cos they are so alike and needs changing. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:23:00 - [68] Yep, gallente doesnt need an optimal bonused bs. The megathron is good enough for fleet ops.
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:37:00 - [69] Originally by: Murina stuff maralt, get a life dude and stop trolling.. you give new meanings to the term clueless and you don't even have the balls to post with your main.. Regarding Tachs.. as mentioned by now a few times, there isn't a single amarr bs that can fit a full rack of t2 Tachs without multiple fitting mods/rigs, and that's a very important ballancing factor.. As far as the missing oversized long range weapon in the Rail and Arty roundup, it would be a little hard to implement it.. meaning, 425mm's allready have the longest range of all long range turrets, on full bonused Rokhs can allready shoot from outside of the 249km's targeting range.. so how would a larger gun fit in this picture!? 1400mm's on the other hand allready have huge powergrid requirements in relation to the minnie bs roundup, can't see an even larger gun having any actual use, beter range for the 1400mm's would do it.. or even beter, some more powergrid for the pest to have it fit a full rack of 1400mm's the same way the mega fits a full rack of 425mm's, meaning.. without the need for fitting mods/rigs.. ps. seriously maralt.. get a grip dude.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:42:00 - [70] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 05/02/2009 18:44:36 Edited by: Naomi Knight on 05/02/2009 18:43:05 There is no need for larger arty and rail guns. Murina just want to make gallente boats to be amarr boats that should not happen.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:43:00 - [71] Originally by: Zamolxiss maralt, get a life dude and stop trolling.. you give new meanings to the term clueless and you don't even have the balls to post with your main.. I have never denied who my main is muppet, he is unable to post for the next month or so hence the cyno alt posts... And the problem may have been originally posted as a gun problem but its the bonuses on ships the guns get that is the real issue. Although that is rather obvious considering guns in a hangar or on the market are really not much of a threat.. PS: go ahead and drop a few more names out it will save me doing it pal. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.02.05 19:22:00 - [72] Originally by: Murina I have never denied who my main is muppet, he is unable to post for the next month or so hence the cyno alt posts... Hint didn't take huh?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 19:29:00 - [73] Originally by: Naomi Knight There is no need for larger arty and rail guns. Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it.
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.02.05 19:41:00 - [74] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Naomi Knight There is no need for larger arty and rail guns. Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it. IMHO changing the Hyps repair bonus to a Hybrid falloff bonus would do it. Makes the Hype a much better blaster boat, lets it deal with its tracking problems in a way that makes it very distinct from the Mega, gives it longer effective range without intruding on the Rokh's territory. Its a win win.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.05 19:46:00 - [75] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Naomi Knight There is no need for larger arty and rail guns. Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it. No. Gallente and matar ships are good enough for fleet fights atm. Only thing should be changed is the apoc as it is too good,i would decrease its cap slightly. And a little decrease (20-30%) in rails cap use and everything is fine.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 19:55:00 - [76] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 19:56:33 Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Murina Originally by: Naomi Knight There is no need for larger arty and rail guns. Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it. No. Gallente and matar ships are good enough for fleet fights atm. Only thing should be changed is the apoc as it is too good,i would decrease its cap slightly. And a little decrease (20-30%) in rails cap use and everything is fine. I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.05 20:25:00 - [77] Originally by: Murina I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect. Especially as the apoc has a built in cap bonust, just compare: cap/rec apoc 7500/1154s should be changed to 6000/1154s, and optimal bonus to cap bonus mega 5625/1154s pest 5312/1154s imho it doesnt need this much as no cap use for weapons rokh 6000/1250s should be increased to 7000-7500 or decrease large hybrids cap use by 30%
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Murina I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect. Especially as the apoc has a built in cap bonust, just compare: cap/rec apoc 7500/1154s should be changed to 6000/1154s, and optimal bonus to cap bonus That's exactly what the Apoc USED TO HAVE, and because it was terrible, they boosted it to give it the range bonus :-/ __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:32:00 - [79] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Murina I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect. Especially as the apoc has a built in cap bonust, just compare: cap/rec apoc 7500/1154s should be changed to 6000/1154s, and optimal bonus to cap bonus That's exactly what the Apoc USED TO HAVE, and because it was terrible, they boosted it to give it the range bonus :-/ Yeah and they made a big mistake by that , now apoc is op.
Ka'loor Amarr Die Argonen	Posted - 2009.02.05 21:57:00 - [80] Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again. Great. No i dont fly apocs. So it doesnt concern me too much, but why? /sarcasm We could go back to EVE 1.00 since old times is better, give is 8 Heat Sink Geddons back!!!oneoneone /sarcasm off Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself. Better to die with honor, than to live in shame.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:00:00 - [81] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55 Originally by: Ka'loor Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again. How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:38:00 - [82] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55 Originally by: Ka'loor Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again. How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?. The reason it was useless was because it had no role. Geddon and Abaddon both out gank it and out tank it. (Geddon has 8th low, Abaddon has resist bonus) Now Amarr has 3 ships, who still step on each others toes a bit but not nearly as bad as before. Armageddon: Cheap, High DPS, Big Drone bay. Apocalypse: Long Range, Moderate DPS. Abaddon: Ultimate Tank/Gank ratio, horrible cap problems. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:43:00 - [83] Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:46:15 Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55 Originally by: Ka'loor Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again. How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?. The reason it was useless was because it had no role. Geddon and Abaddon both out gank it and out tank it. (Geddon has 8th low, Abaddon has resist bonus) Now Amarr has 3 ships, who still step on each others toes a bit but not nearly as bad as before. Armageddon: Cheap, High DPS, Big Drone bay. Apocalypse: Long Range, Moderate DPS. Abaddon: Ultimate Tank/Gank ratio, horrible cap problems. So the idea of giving one of the blaster BS and either the pest or strom a range bonus is still the best way?...good i always preferred buffs to nerfs tbh. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.05 22:45:00 - [84] Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55 Originally by: Ka'loor Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again. How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?. The reason it was useless was because it had no role. Geddon and Abaddon both out gank it and out tank it. (Geddon has 8th low, Abaddon has resist bonus) Now Amarr has 3 ships, who still step on each others toes a bit but not nearly as bad as before. Armageddon: Cheap, High DPS, Big Drone bay. Apocalypse: Long Range, Moderate DPS. Abaddon: Ultimate Tank/Gank ratio, horrible cap problems. Then keep its optimal but decrease something else ,because it is much better than the mega or the tempest.Lower cap or number of guns.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:10:00 - [85] Originally by: Murina Yup, like i said gallente have 2 BS that apart from a slight and rather unimportant slot difference and bonus are way too like each other. One of them is pointless cos they are so alike and needs changing, a optimal bonus on one will just fit the bill.... No, not like you said at all, you said that gallente didn't have BS capable of hitting out at the same range as the apoc, and I have just given you 2 so that directly disproves something you said; we aren't in agreement. If you think the hype and mega are too similar, then I would argue the abaddon and geddon are even more similar.
Malvorak Amarr IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:11:00 - [86] Originally by: Naomi Knight Then keep its optimal but decrease something else ,because it is much better than the mega or the tempest.Lower cap or number of guns. Oh noes!!! A ship that actually does what its meant to do, plz nerf it!!! Omg its so much better then a tempest and a mega at snipping so it must be OP...of course the tempest and the mega are far superior at closer ranges, but what the heck right?? "Omg my ship cant do what your does, plz ccp, make all ships do exactly the same, so that way we can have bloody world of warcraft in space!!!!!" Im so angry because Tachs have more tracking then my rails, everyone noes how bloody that is important at long range, besides they are so much better than all other range weapons...exept they are extremly hard to fit...and consume a huge amount of cap...maybe that why the apoc has a bigger cap than the other bs of the same tier??? Not to mention that everyone knows that everyone one in eve battles at ranges over 200k right? Jesus ppl get a grip!!
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:11:00 - [87] Originally by: Naomi Knight Then keep its optimal but decrease something else ,because it is much better than the mega or the tempest.Lower cap or number of guns. Better than Tempest yes, Mega no, Mega can match or exceed it in any role besides fleet sniper, and even then it is damn close.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:14:00 - [88] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Murina Yup, like i said gallente have 2 BS that apart from a slight and rather unimportant slot difference and bonus are way too like each other. One of them is pointless cos they are so alike and needs changing, a optimal bonus on one will just fit the bill.... No, not like you said at all, you said that gallente didn't have BS capable of hitting out at the same range as the apoc, The apoc can hit at max the mega and hype cannot, so you proved nothing.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:37:00 - [89] Why is it that nobody cried when the typhoon lost it's optimal bonus(true story), but the crapoc gets one and all of a sudden everyone cries imba like it's the second coming of the emperor? Pulse are clearly inferior to other closerange guns >15km. Tachs are superior to other races guns in alpha when fitted to the abbadon(give me a reasonable fit where you can deal full dps in an abbadon for more than 2 vollies at 200km plz), and range when fitted to, suprise suprise, the newly buffed apoc. Apoc gets 3/4ths of a real optimal bonus(because it benefits pulse as well, all said, but wait, the rokh optimal bonus doesn't benefit blasters at all right? People don't actually use null, right?), and no damage bonus, but awesome cap stability for a lazor platform. Abbadon has good alpha with tachs, but lacks the cap stability for sustained engagements(lol fit cap boost on a fleet battleship?). If you're going to argue tracking, I say boost projectiles, which have the closest range(needs more tracking) and worst tracking of all longrange guns. Boost arty alpha(lower rof to keep similar dps) while you're at it. Ultimately something has to be the "best" or else we may as well all just slap "Standard Large Turret II" on our ship and call it a day. Lazors have enough problems of their own to offset the advantages of using them(beams have shortish range when not fitted on +optimal boats, for one), heavy cap use for another(again, give me functional tach sniping abbadon or even geddon fit, plz, pref microwarp so I can GTFO bubbles).
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:42:00 - [90] Originally by: Selia Rain Pulse are clearly inferior to other closerange guns >15km. This is a typo or joke post right?, BS pulse are more OP compared to AC and blasters than the apoc tach fit is to arties and rails ffs. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.

Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:42:00 - [91] Originally by: Murina The apoc can hit at max the mega and hype cannot, so you proved nothing. All of the ships (mega/hype/rokh/apoc) can hit effectively at 200km,and all of them can hit at 250km (all apart from rokh being at 2 falloffs to do so). Originally by: murina The apoc is a better fleet/gang sniper and there also amarr BS that make much better close range gang ships than the mega or hype for that matter. I didn't say it wasn't a better sniper, I said it wasn't significantly better . The amarr BS may make better closer range gang ships, but those would be the geddon and abaddon, not the apocalypse, so again, you haven't contradicted my point, you have merely skirted it, this isn't a rebuttal. I used to know a maralt, back in the days of NORAD, RISE, and RONIN, you aren't he are you? I am sorely disappointed if you are, because it really isn't difficult to make the mega and hype perform similarly to pulse fit BS, you just have to think on the edges of the box.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.02.06 00:43:00 - [92] sure, we can all go berserk over eHP and what else EFT tells us... but plz keep in mind that when it comes to sniping fleet fittings w/ MDW and DDDproof tanks, apoc, mega and pest rely on EANM(s)+DCU. heck, even scorpion and rokh can and should do so. (yes some tempests fit an "unresisted" shield extender to cope with the expl damage, but it's not their battle-tank) anyways... armor: that's when the apoc's aurora damage looks a lot less scary and tremor may not be so bad after all (well... except for falloff). - putting the gist back into logistics
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.06 06:05:00 - [93] Edited by: Last Wolf on 06/02/2009 06:06:55 Originally by: Murina Originally by: Selia Rain Pulse are clearly inferior to other closerange guns >15km. This is a typo or joke post right?, BS pulse are more OP compared to AC and blasters than the apoc tach fit is to arties and rails ffs. Its obviously a typo. For all you Megathron whiners that say your Neutrons can't hit anything since the web nerf. How do you think Amarr feels? Megapulse have nearly HALF the tracking of Nuetron's on a mega, an only about 2/3rds the tracking of the Hype (And no Amarr BS have a 5th mid for a second webber to off-set it) The Only reason Amarr is so-called "Overpowered" is because they can do 90-95% of Blaster DPS at 15-25km, and 65-75% of it at 40-50km. While Gallete boats are MWD'ing around trying to get in range, Amarr doesn't have too. Funny thing is.. Its been the EXACT SAME WAY FOR 5 YEARS NOW!!!!. But for some reason Gallente players have all started to whine in masses about it. Amarr are STILL not as good as a blaster boat in a 1vs1 (Unless you're stupid enough to stay at the edge of their optimal and not exploit their horrible tracking) Amarr have ALWAYS been awesome gang ships. Even during the "LOL AMARR SUXXORS" period for the last 2-3 years up until around 6 months ago. The only "Boost" Lasers have got since March of 04 (when I started playing) that I can remember is the ~25% boost to tracking on Pulse weapons, and boy did they need it. Compared to Blasters and Autocannons they still have horrible tracking. Beams and Tachyons have remained unchanged. There has been NO changes to lasers to make them suddenly "OMG OVERPOWERED!!!!!". Everyone is just in a different mindset about it now. There is less solo (Where blasters were King of the hill for nearly 3 years) and more and more gangs roaming around (Which is the optimal situation for lasers) In conclusion, The only things that has changed are the occurrences of optimal situations for certain weapon types. Its shifted from point-blank is king to medium range is king. Apoc getting an Optimal bonus has nothing to do with lasers being too strong. I was in favor of it being the amarr torp or drone (or both) BS. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 06:28:00 - [94] Edited by: Selia Rain on 06/02/2009 06:31:20 Edited by: Selia Rain on 06/02/2009 06:29:51 Originally by: Murina Originally by: Selia Rain Pulse are clearly inferior to other closerange guns >15km. This is a typo or joke post right?, BS pulse are more OP compared to AC and blasters than the apoc tach fit is to arties and rails ffs. Megapulse II, T1 MF= 0.04219 -48 dps 15+10km Neutron II, T1 AM= 0.05412 -56 dps 4.5+13km 800mm II, T1 EMP= 0.054 -40 dps 3+20km DPS is middle tier in terms of the top end guns, tracking is worst. They're "OP" because scorch is awesome generally and you can deal goodish dps out to 45km on a non optimal boosted ship with good skills. Projectiles have good tracking, but poor damage when not fitted on a ship with rof or rof+damage bonuses. Hybrids have slightly worse tracking than autos, but far more dps(plus several of the primary blasterships have tracking bonuses). Lazors have range flexibility, lack of tracking, and middle of the road damage. You're doing a reasonable amount of pure EM damage/therm, which since EM armor resists are not super ultra high anymore isn't a bad thing, but it's not as versitile as projectiles that can switch from doing EM+exp+kin to th+kin to EX+kin and still do generally similar dps. Actually if you throw torps on the list, and they're clearly the most superior close range weapons system on paper, no tracking issues, even damage up to max range, any damage type at will, highest base weapon dps, good range(20km max skill T1/faction ammo), then lazors are the third best closerange weapons system. Out of four. Note that all three gallente battleships have damage bonuses for their already high dps guns. Amarr have one ship with rof, one with damage, one with optimal. Minmatar have one with rof+rof(not sure if phoon counts), one with rof, and one with rof+damage. Caldari don't count. Well your neutron is still out damaging the megapulse with null loaded and a 9km optimal, your 800mm with barrage is dealing the same(!) dps with the same optimal but now has 30km of falloff. 15km might be a bit more, it might be more like 10km where you're simply outclassed by the other weapons except possibly the barrage autocannon, which now has similar/slightly worse tracking to your megapulse II, but retains the same dps with barrage as you can get with best T1 ammo. Probably could have presented my argument better, but in short: In my opinion pulse lazors aren't overpowered, they are just more range flexible than the other closerange weapons. Just because I can ace an inty in one volley of my megapulse II at 80km and your mega can't even target it doesn't make it imba. Pulse just don't shine at extremely close range. I mean if your mega is 5km from me, I feel the pain, you've got similar EHP, better EM resist, more raw dps, and superior tracking to boot. Plus I have to cap boost just to run my guns(abbadon), have too few mids and crippled CPU(geddon), or low dps(apoc). Clearly overpowered IMO.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:53:00 - [95] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 08:56:02 Originally by: Captator All of the ships (mega/hype/rokh/apoc) can hit effectively at 200km,and all of them can hit at 250km (all apart from rokh being at 2 falloffs to do so). Hype and mega cannot hit at 250, Originally by: Captator I didn't say it wasn't a better sniper, I said it wasn't significantly better . The amarr BS may make better closer range gang ships, but those would be the geddon and abaddon, not the apocalypse, so again, you haven't contradicted my point, you have merely skirted it, this isn't a rebuttal. Better is better. No need to contradict your point as i was not referring to the apoc as far the the blaster vs pulse comment was concerned. You are the one hiding behind single ships to justify overpowered race. You have no point cos if a gallente player wants to go from rails to blasters he has to jump in another ship or refit the one he is in, so its just as easy for a amarr player to hop in a geddon or a baddon from his apoc. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:11:00 - [96] "Your 2500mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes Angel Battlestation, wrecking for 15379.7 damage." we need special ammo too: C4filled Trash Dumpter Sabot Cement filled Volkswagen Hollow point maybe we can get a special ammo bay and just fire shuttles out of it? ---------- "This is Chopper Dave's made for TV movie, Blades Of Vengeance. See, he's a chopper pilot by day, but by night he fights crime as a werewolf... YEAH!"
Jack Jombardo Amarr Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:30:00 - [97] The Apoc was one of the most useless BS for loooooong time! And Amarr still has many of this "broken" ships with cap-usage crap bonus or pure evil fitting probs. Nobody used the Apoc before the FIX as either the Geddon or the Abbadon outperfoms it in all cases. And Tachs are no real problem as it is a pur pain to fitt all 8 if you don't have AWU 5 and EGU 5 to use RCU II + several other fitting skills for the rest. Pluse the MASSIVE power-use to actual fire them (power beaks == reload for other weapons!!!!!!!!!!!).
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:48:00 - [98] Originally by: Jack Jombardo And Tachs are no real problem as it is a pur pain to fitt all 8 if you don't have AWU 5 and EGU 5 to use RCU II + several other fitting skills for the rest. Pluse the MASSIVE power-use to actual fire them (power beaks == reload for other weapons!!!!!!!!!!!). You can fit 8 if you dont dd tank, you can still fit 7 easily with dd tank and that will still out dps/range the mega. DD tanked mega : 312dps/183km opt with 7min cap for shooting DD tanked apoc with 7tach : 350dps/188km opt with 9min cap for shooting not dd tanked apoc with 8 tach: 400dps/210km opt 9min cap for shooting not dd tanked mega : 350dps/191km opt with 6min cap for shooting yeah not op...
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 10:38:00 - [99] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Jack Jombardo And Tachs are no real problem as it is a pur pain to fitt all 8 if you don't have AWU 5 and EGU 5 to use RCU II + several other fitting skills for the rest. Pluse the MASSIVE power-use to actual fire them (power beaks == reload for other weapons!!!!!!!!!!!). You can fit 8 if you dont dd tank, you can still fit 7 easily with dd tank and that will still out dps/range the mega. DD tanked mega : 312dps/183km opt with 7min cap for shooting DD tanked apoc with 7tach : 350dps/188km opt with 9min cap for shooting not dd tanked apoc with 8 tach: 400dps/210km opt 9min cap for shooting not dd tanked mega : 350dps/191km opt with 6min cap for shooting yeah not op... The only difference between this now and this pre apoc boost is that now the apoc has more range. EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME. Cap bonus on the apoc became an equivalent amount of cap, and it got an optimal bonus. Why was the apoc not overpowered before then? It still did superior dps as a fleet sniper, it just lacked the range to back it up(see tempest). Mega can fit a rack of 425s easy. Max skills, you have around 2400 pg left to play with. Apoc with tachs? Oh wait, it takes an RCU just to fit your guns. Infact, you're over 2100 PG short of fitting them, and need an RCU II just to fit your guns. Apoc has always been the king of cap so I'll ignore that for now, as even with max skills the tachs are taking far more cap than the rails(-41.4 for 8, as opposed to -29.9). You expect rails(the moderate dps, best range sniper weapon) to outperform tachyons in terms of dps? Beams have the best dps, arty has alpha, rails have range. Ship bonuses do of course modify this(which is what I think you're arguing). If you want to snipe at range, grab a rokh or something(note the rokh's superior optimal bonus). I also find it interesting that the mega can at least get close to the same optimal as a ship with a pretty reasonable optimal range bonus. Does that tell you something about rails? Note that 7 gun apoc does the exact same dps with aurora as the mega does with spike(and then both can fit cloaks!). I would be interested in seeing your supposed fits though.
Jack Jombardo Amarr Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.02.06 10:45:00 - [100] It's as you try to create a Fleet-Snipper-GEDDON :D Mega can fitt a full rack of the largest long range guns? Um, try to fitt 7 Tachs on a Geddon .. good luck ;).

Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 10:59:00 - [101] 468 dps on a sniper, yea baby! Armageddon: 7x Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L <--175+25km 1x Prototype Cloaking Device I <--for warping off to recharge your cap 1x F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range 2x Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 3x Heat Sink II 2x Reactor Control Unit II 2x Tracking Enhancer II 1x Internal Force Field Array I 3x Ionic Field Projector I <---required 5x Wasp EC-900 ...for all three minutes you can fire.
Jack Jombardo Amarr Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.02.06 11:02:00 - [102] and now the DD version :)
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 11:05:00 - [103] Originally by: Jack Jombardo and now the DD version :) Why fit the geddon when the apoc is the better ship for that particular job, even after its fixed?.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.02.06 12:19:00 - [104] Edited by: Typhado3 on 06/02/2009 12:25:15 Originally by: Jack Jombardo and now the DD version :) You probably won't be able to with a full rack of tachs with a dd tank.... or at least not without nerfing your dmg or rediculously expensive fittings. Fitting tachyons will require sacrifices that will effect your other areas such as tank and cap stability. Thing is no other race has the option of fitting a heavier version sniper gun on their bs's, but tbh I don't see this as a problem. Amarr are the heavy armour/buffer tanking med-long range dps race so them getting the best fleet snipers and even a special gun option for extra dps seems to go well with that. the problem I see is with the following; amarr are the armour/buffer tanking and fleet sniper experts and they get the best ship in this area in eve (damnation, harbringer, the bs's etc.) gallente are the drones and point blank range blaster experts and they get the best drone boats as for blasters well there's argument about blasters being effective but they should have the best point blank ships deimos/mega (never flown them so not 100% sure how well they work). caldari are the range and ewar race, they have the best ewar ships and the longest range ships in cruiser, bs and frigate clases. minmatar are the speed and alpha race, we have the fastest ships in most classes yet in interceptors (the best speed ships in eve) the crusader can reach the same speeds as the claw with the same setup. And the highest alpha ship in the game is the abbadon. That's mostly a problem with the mael not trying to be a minmatar ship and not working with minmatars strengths, but the fact is if you want an alpha bs your best choice is not the race that specializes in alpha =s ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 13:06:00 - [105] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 06/02/2009 13:14:17 Originally by: Selia Rain The only difference between this now and this pre apoc boost is that now the apoc has more range. EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME. Cap bonus on the apoc became an equivalent amount of cap, and it got an optimal bonus. Why was the apoc not overpowered before then? It still did superior dps as a fleet sniper, it just lacked the range to back it up(see tempest). Mega can fit a rack of 425s easy. Max skills, you have around 2400 pg left to play with. Apoc with tachs? Oh wait, it takes an RCU just to fit your guns. Infact, you're over 2100 PG short of fitting them, and need an RCU II just to fit your guns. Apoc has always been the king of cap so I'll ignore that for now, as even with max skills the tachs are taking far more cap than the rails(-41.4 for 8, as opposed to -29.9). You expect rails(the moderate dps, best range sniper weapon) to outperform tachyons in terms of dps? Beams have the best dps, arty has alpha, rails have range. Ship bonuses do of course modify this(which is what I think you're arguing). If you want to snipe at range, grab a rokh or something(note the rokh's superior optimal bonus). I also find it interesting that the mega can at least get close to the same optimal as a ship with a pretty reasonable optimal range bonus. Does that tell you something about rails? Note that 7 gun apoc does the exact same dps with aurora as the mega does with spike(and then both can fit cloaks!). I would be interested in seeing your supposed fits though. That optimal bonus is just enough to reach fleet snipe range with optimal without gimping its full fit to do that. Before change it had more dps but less range , now it has more range ,more dps. So what if apoc has to fit a rcu and only 7 turrets, does it matter when the result is still better than the mega easy fit 7x425mm? Rokh and tempest have to fit rcus too. "Apoc has always been the king of cap" yeah but now it has better optimal too with dps. And if you would check you would know that more cap use for tachions doesnt matter if your ship has much more cap to start with than the mega or rokh. Both mega and rokh has to fit a cap module just to be able to shoot their guns for 5-6mins,apoc can easily do that without mods. "You expect rails(the moderate dps, best range sniper weapon) to outperform tachyons in terms of dps?" No But when the beam ship gets a bonus to reach or even outrange rail ships and still do at least dps as the dmg bonused rail ship than there is a problem. Oh and dont forget about the much better tracking. "I also find it interesting that the mega can at least get close to the same optimal as a ship with a pretty reasonable optimal range bonus. Does that tell you something about rails?" Yes one thing : mega lack eighter optimal or dps or anything else compared to the apoc at sniper range.
Neyro7830 Gallente Axxeon	Posted - 2009.02.06 13:28:00 - [106] Originally by: achoura Edited by: achoura on 05/02/2009 00:12:48 /me props the "do not feed the troll" sign against the wall. I think you have troll and idiot confused here. Not everyone who disagrees with someone is a troll.
Frank Osmoze Amarr Requiem Aeternam Qc	Posted - 2009.02.06 13:29:00 - [107] Edited by: Frank Osmoze on 06/02/2009 13:29:18
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.06 15:49:00 - [108] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 06/02/2009 13:14:17 Originally by: Selia Rain The only difference between this now and this pre apoc boost is that now the apoc has more range. EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME. Cap bonus on the apoc became an equivalent amount of cap, and it got an optimal bonus. Why was the apoc not overpowered before then? It still did superior dps as a fleet sniper, it just lacked the range to back it up(see tempest). Mega can fit a rack of 425s easy. Max skills, you have around 2400 pg left to play with. Apoc with tachs? Oh wait, it takes an RCU just to fit your guns. Infact, you're over 2100 PG short of fitting them, and need an RCU II just to fit your guns. Apoc has always been the king of cap so I'll ignore that for now, as even with max skills the tachs are taking far more cap than the rails(-41.4 for 8, as opposed to -29.9). You expect rails(the moderate dps, best range sniper weapon) to outperform tachyons in terms of dps? Beams have the best dps, arty has alpha, rails have range. Ship bonuses do of course modify this(which is what I think you're arguing). If you want to snipe at range, grab a rokh or something(note the rokh's superior optimal bonus). I also find it interesting that the mega can at least get close to the same optimal as a ship with a pretty reasonable optimal range bonus. Does that tell you something about rails? Note that 7 gun apoc does the exact same dps with aurora as the mega does with spike(and then both can fit cloaks!). I would be interested in seeing your supposed fits though. That optimal bonus is just enough to reach fleet snipe range with optimal without gimping its full fit to do that. Before change it had more dps but less range , now it has more range ,more dps. So what if apoc has to fit a rcu and only 7 turrets, does it matter when the result is still better than the mega easy fit 7x425mm? Rokh and tempest have to fit rcus too. "Apoc has always been the king of cap" yeah but now it has better optimal too with dps. And if you would check you would know that more cap use for tachions doesnt matter if your ship has much more cap to start with than the mega or rokh. Both mega and rokh has to fit a cap module just to be able to shoot their guns for 5-6mins,apoc can easily do that without mods. "You expect rails(the moderate dps, best range sniper weapon) to outperform tachyons in terms of dps?" No But when the beam ship gets a bonus to reach or even outrange rail ships and still do at least dps as the dmg bonused rail ship than there is a problem. Oh and dont forget about the much better tracking. "I also find it interesting that the mega can at least get close to the same optimal as a ship with a pretty reasonable optimal range bonus. Does that tell you something about rails?" Yes one thing : mega lack eighter optimal or dps or anything else compared to the apoc at sniper range. Different ships with different bonuses preform better at different roles. Oh NOES NERF IT NOW CCP!!! Try to get an Apoc to do comparable dps to a Megathron sub 10km. Your comparing a ship with out a long range bonus, to a ship with a long range bonus. Then whining because the ship without the bonus isn't as good at long range? Nerf the Hyperion. It's armor tank is WAAAAY better than a Rokh's. No fair!!!!
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:12:00 - [109] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 16:15:55 Originally by: Last Wolf Different ships with different bonuses preform better at different roles. Oh NOES NERF IT NOW CCP!!! Try to get an Apoc to do comparable dps to a Megathron sub 10km. Your comparing a ship with out a long range bonus, to a ship with a long range bonus. Then whining because the ship without the bonus isn't as good at long range? Nerf the Hyperion. It's armor tank is WAAAAY better than a Rokh's. No fair!!!! So this is what happens when somebodies silly arguments gets all shot down..... Have you tried showing a little grave and just admitting you were mistaken?, you will look a lot less like a emo clown stamping his booties if you do in future pal. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Madner Kami	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:31:00 - [110] Originally by: Murina So this is what happens when somebodies silly arguments gets all shot down..... Have you tried showing a little grave and just admitting you were mistaken?, you will look a lot less like a emo clown stamping his booties if you do in future pal. In case you didn't notice it: Your arguements are invalid, not his.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:40:00 - [111] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 16:44:44 Originally by: Madner Kami Originally by: Murina So this is what happens when somebodies silly arguments gets all shot down..... Have you tried showing a little grave and just admitting you were mistaken?, you will look a lot less like a emo clown stamping his booties if you do in future pal. In case you didn't notice it: Your arguements are invalid, not his. Just because you agree with him because of a racial preference or lack the basic understanding about what is being discussed does not qualify you to say ppl arguments are invalid. 2 races have a sniper bonused BS 2 races do not, thus sniping cannot be considered a individual racial trait or only one race would have it (caldari), a amarr BS was adjusted because of whines and given a bonus that steps on a caldari rail ship specialization. So either the other two races deserve a sniper ship by adjusting one of their extra/redundant blaster boats/ac ships or the amarr ship needs adjusting, its that simple.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:42:00 - [112] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Madner Kami Originally by: Murina So this is what happens when somebodies silly arguments gets all shot down..... Have you tried showing a little grave and just admitting you were mistaken?, you will look a lot less like a emo clown stamping his booties if you do in future pal. In case you didn't notice it: Your arguements are invalid, not his. Just because you agree with him because of a racial preference or lack the basic understanding about what is being discussed does not qualify you to say ppl arguments are invalid. 2 races have a sniper BS 2 races do not, thus sniping cannot be considered a racial trait any more or only one race would have it (caldari), amarr were adjusted because of whines and given a ship that steps on caldaris specialization. So either the other two races deserve a sniper ship by adjusting one of their redundant blaster boats/ac ships or the amarr ship needs adjusting, its that simple. Yep
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 17:50:00 - [113] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Captator All of the ships (mega/hype/rokh/apoc) can hit effectively at 200km,and all of them can hit at 250km (all apart from rokh being at 2 falloffs to do so). Hype and mega cannot hit at 250. They can hit just as well as the apoc at 250km, given that at 250km the apoc, mega and hyperion are all at optimal + 2 falloffs, this is basic maths... Originally by: murina Originally by: Captator I didn't say it wasn't a better sniper, I said it wasn't significantly better . The amarr BS may make better closer range gang ships, but those would be the geddon and abaddon, not the apocalypse, so again, you haven't contradicted my point, you have merely skirted it, this isn't a rebuttal. Better is better. No need to contradict your point as i was not referring to the apoc as far the the blaster vs pulse comment was concerned. You are the one hiding behind single ships to justify overpowered race. You have no point cos if a gallente player wants to go from rails to blasters he has to jump in another ship or refit the one he is in, so its just as easy for a amarr player to hop in a geddon or a baddon from his apoc. Mega and Hyperion are both far better snipers than the geddon and abaddon, clearly following your logic (and I use this term very loosely) this is overpowered... I am not hiding behind anything, you are the one who keeps changing their point: Originally by: murina The apoc is a better fleet/gang sniper and there also amarr BS that make much better close range gang ships than the mega or hype for that matter. Your argument is incomplete, the apocalypse may be a better sniper, but it is weaker as a close range boat than the megathron and hyperion (and dominix too incidentally), similarly the megathron and hyperion could be viewed as weaker than the abaddon and megathron (I don't agree with this, and I am not giving you my fits for free ) in a close range role, but they are stronger snipers than both the abaddon and armageddon, so this could be deemed a balanced and stable system.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:00:00 - [114] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 16:15:55 Originally by: Last Wolf Different ships with different bonuses preform better at different roles. Oh NOES NERF IT NOW CCP!!! Try to get an Apoc to do comparable dps to a Megathron sub 10km. Your comparing a ship with out a long range bonus, to a ship with a long range bonus. Then whining because the ship without the bonus isn't as good at long range? Nerf the Hyperion. It's armor tank is WAAAAY better than a Rokh's. No fair!!!! So this is what happens when somebodies silly arguments gets all shot down..... Have you tried showing a little grave and just admitting you were mistaken?, you will look a lot less like a emo clown stamping his booties if you do in future pal. Do you really want me to trawl through some of the other threads you have posted in to find equivalently poor posts? In your case even exasperation isn't a valid excuse, whereas here I would say that it is.
Jack Jombardo Amarr Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:14:00 - [115] Well guys, I'm still relativ new (2007 with many breaks) but the Apoc was a gimp ship for long time. Do I see it right? Minmatar ships sub BS had been the "standart" roming-fleet ships for long time becouse of superior speed. Do I see it right? For how many years had this two facts been "state of the art"? Finaly ONE Amarr ship got it's stupid NO-bonus changed to somethink usefull and you start to nerv it so fast? And well, don't let us look to all the other still broken NO-bonus ships amarr have! Rookie Ship: Imperior, 10% capuse/level T1 FRIG: Executor, 10% capuse/level Magnate, 5% capuse/level Crucifier, 10% capuse/level Punisher, 10% capuse/level Navy Sliver, 10% capuse/level T2 Frig: Crusader, 10% capuse/level Retribution, 10% capuse/level Destroyer: Coercer, 10% capuse/level T1 Cruiser: Omen (wtf fitting probs like hell!!), Maller, Navy Omen, Navy Augoror, 10% capuse/level many more but to lazy to list all. So, if you call for "balance" ... WHEN does all this ships get a USEFULL bonus????
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:14:00 - [116] Edited by: Last Wolf on 06/02/2009 18:15:57 Murina and Naomi Knight: I'd love to see your fits that make the Apoc so "Overpowered" The best I can come up with the Mega is 10dps behind the Apoc (251 vs 261) and 17km range less (183km vs 200km) while the mega has slightly more EHP (76.2k vs 75.8k) anything above 180km optimal is redundant. 99% of fleet fights happen 130-180km. If you cann't shoot at something because you only have 183km optimal then you're FC is doing (a lot of) something wrong. If you can't compete with apocs because you're only doing 251 dps vs its 261, than you are doing (a lot of) something wrong. Tracking is a non-issue at those ranges. And at ranges where it IS an issue, you're 125m^3 drone bay MORE than makes up for the DPS lost from rail's tracking. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:15:00 - [117] Originally by: Captator Your argument is incomplete, the apocalypse may be a better sniper, but it is weaker as a close range boat than the megathron and hyperion That is why i clearly pointed out there are OTHER amarr BS are better at close range than the mega or hype. Amarr have a better sniper than any gallente or mini BS, a better mid range BS than any gallente or mini BS and a better close range BS than any gallente or mini BS. Apoc = better than any gallente or mini BS at long range. Geddon and baddon = better at short and mid range than any any gallente or mini BS. Picking the apoc and saying it is worse than the meaga at close range is stupid cos if you can fly the apoc you can fly the bloody geddon or baddon as well and you would fit them for a close range OP. Go away troll. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:22:00 - [118] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 06/02/2009 18:24:31 Originally by: Murina Originally by: Captator Your argument is incomplete, the apocalypse may be a better sniper, but it is weaker as a close range boat than the megathron and hyperion That is why i clearly pointed out there are OTHER amarr BS are better at close range than the mega or hype. Amarr have a better sniper than any gallente or mini BS, a better mid range BS than any gallente or mini BS and a better close range BS than any gallente or mini BS. Apoc = better than any gallente or mini BS at long range. Geddon and baddon = better at short and mid range than any any gallente or mini BS. Picking the apoc and saying it is worse than the meaga at close range is stupid cos if you can fly the apoc you can fly the bloody geddon or baddon as well and you would fit them for a close range OP. Go away troll. amarr is not gonna get changed just cause apoc is a viable sniper.. (how long was it completely useless again?) also geddon and baddon better at short and mid range than any gallente or mini bs? pest, phoon, domi, thron, all subpar to geddon and baddon since when.. ? ALSO.. what the f has all of this to do with tachyons... cause this sounds more and more like an "omg nerf amarr" thread.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:23:00 - [119] Edited by: Last Wolf on 06/02/2009 18:23:43 Originally by: Murina Geddon and baddon = better at short and mid range than any any gallente or mini BS. Megathron and Hyperion and Dominx are better at short range than Armageddon and Abaddons. Look, I can make baseless claims also! First though, You are wrong. How is it even POSSIBLE for Armageddon/Abaddon to be better at short range? They have, Less DPS, Less mids, Less Tracking, Less speed, Less sensor Strength (I'm sure you're a falcon cry baby also).
Jack Jombardo Amarr Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:34:00 - [120] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 06/02/2009 18:34:59 Originally by: Murina Picking the apoc and saying it is worse than the meaga at close range is stupid cos if you can fly the apoc you can fly the bloody geddon or baddon as well and you would fit them for a close range operation not the apoc. Same for the Mega. If you can fly the Mega you can fly the Domi or Hyp where espezialy the Domi is soooo multi-funktional that no other BS can compet with. Can be tanked as Armor or Schild tank. Can be used as suporter. Can be active/passive tanked. Can be used as NEUT/NOS platform. Can be used with X combinations of drones to fullfit any needed rool. Is an excelent Mission and PvP ship. "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau" would be the best description in german. You like a Gallente counterpart for the Apoc? I like a Amarr counterpart for the Domi ;). EDIT: one without stupid NO-bonus 10% capuse/level !!!!!

Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:34:00 - [121] Originally by: Naomi Knight DD tanked mega : 312dps/191km opt with 5.5min cap for shooting also 150m/s faster with mwd on, so better at getting out of bubbles DD tanked apoc with 7tach : 350dps/188km opt with 5.8min cap for shooting not dd tanked apoc with 8 tach: 400dps/231km opt 4.75min cap for shooting, 50k EHP without gang bonus, 53k EHP with maxed leadership, 61k EHP with maxed damnation providing bonuses not dd tanked mega : 350dps/191km opt with 4.7min cap for shooting, 63k EHP without gang bonus, 67k EHP with maxed leadership, 79k EHP with maxed damnation providing bonuses (i.e will doomsday tank) I fixed your numbers for you. Have some more (after all we do want to have a fair comparison right?): Hyperion DD tanked: 357dps/191km opt with 5.3min cap for shooting. Wow, is that better than the 7 tach apoc... Hyperion DD tank not intended: 401dps/191km opt with 4.75min cap for shooting, 61k EHP without gang bonus, 64k EHP with maxed leadership, 73k EHP with maxed damnation providing bonuses (i.e will doomsday tank) Lookee there ...
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:36:00 - [122] Originally by: Last Wolf They have, Less DPS Very marginally less and only at under 9ish km. Originally by: Last Wolf Less mids More than 4 mids on a gang BS are not really important. Originally by: Last Wolf Less Tracking All bs tracking is poor, just cos gallente is better does not make them uber considering the available target selection for ALL turret BS. Originally by: Last Wolf Less speed The available range of pulse 0-50+km makes moving not important. Originally by: Last Wolf Less sensor Strength. Big woop, now explain how that effects close range combat....
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:38:00 - [123] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Comment on cap use bonus Lasers have high base damage/range ratio, the cap use bonus is because their damage bonus (or range bonus if you like) is already built in.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:43:00 - [124] Originally by: Jack Jombardo You like a Gallente counterpart for the Apoc? I like a Amarr counterpart for the Domi ;). Both the other amarr BS hit harder and for more range with pulse than the domi does with drones pal. Anyway drones are a gallente affection, while sniping is not a ammar one it is just a whine boost the ninja'd that is coming back to kick them in the butt.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:45:00 - [125] Originally by: Last Wolf Megathron and Hyperion and Dominx are better at short range than Armageddon and Abaddons. Look, I can make baseless claims also! First though, You are wrong. How is it even POSSIBLE for Armageddon/Abaddon to be better at short range? They have, Less DPS, Less mids, Less Tracking, Less speed, Less sensor Strength (I'm sure you're a falcon cry baby also). Yep
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:46:00 - [126] Originally by: Murina Very marginally less and only at under 9ish km. Thats close range no? Originally by: Murina More than 4 mids on a gang BS are not really important. Geddon only has 3... all 3 of your's have 4 Mids, two of them have 5.... Originally by: Murina All bs tracking is poor, just cos gallente is better does not make them uber considering the available target selection for ALL turret BS. Yes, And Short range tracking is the poorest of the poor. The tracking difference between pulse and Blasters at short range makes a hell of a lot more difference than the tracking between Tachyons and Rails at 180km+ that you're so fond of bringing up in nearly every one of your posts. But oh wait.....All bs tracking is poor, just cos beams are better does not make them uber considering the available target selection for ALL turret BS. Originally by: Murina The available range of pulse 0-50+km makes moving not important. You gotta move to get out of bubbles, get in/out of nos/neut range, get in/out of scramble/web range, get back to the gate. Gallente also have a better align time. Speed/agility is a HUGE part of close range combat. There is more than just locking and F1-F8. If that is how you fly your BS no wonder you're crying about Amarr, you suck.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:49:00 - [127] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 18:54:07 Originally by: Last Wolf rant. BS are heavy dmg platforms, trying to claim they make good tacklers or that some are so much more nimble than other that it makes a difference shows how foolish and desperate you are... Look who owns the close range war (0-20).....amarr by far and they only need to insta reload to own in the mid range as well.... Oh and i like falcons i think they add spice to a engagment instead of it being a predictable slug fest. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 18:58:00 - [128] Edited by: Selia Rain on 06/02/2009 19:00:36 So how are amarr better then? More EHP? Domi vs geddon? Domi can use all it's lows for tank and still do reasonable dps, geddon needs heatsinks. Apoc vs mega? Apoc has poor damage up to 45km(far less than other amarr battleships), and while it can be fit for ehp, it's inferior to the mega at any range under that. Hype vs abbadon? Abbadon is the possible exception and it has a passive tank bonus to the hype's active tank bonus. A bonused passive tank should always have more ehp than an active tanking ship. To touch again on geddon vs domi, try fitting a domi with neutrons and mag stabs, pdus to cram it all on, a couple LSEs, MWD, and an invuln. It is quite possible to get around 100k ehp and over 1400 overloaded dps. Domi is a great gank ship, though a little out of box thinking may be required. Easy with typhoon, but hard to get the ehp too. All gallente battleships do their jobs just fine. Mega is a great passive blaster ship, hype is a great active tank, and dominix is a great all rounder that can fit any role(try to do that with a geddon?). A closerange ship has as much trouble with falcons as otherwise(you've never been jammed in a blaster mega?). I fly amarr because they're atm viable race(ohnoez!), lazors are fun to pewpewpew with and they make shiny rainbow colors. They do fair dps at good range and all amarr battleships have a proper role atm. I was flying amarr even before the EM armor nerf and lazor tracking boost, and only ever had a few complaints with them. On tachyone tracking(mega vs apoc): tach= 0.00435 425= 0.00413 or 0.00022 rad/s difference. Totally a massive difference, and the mega has a 1-2 spare lowslots to fit another TE II or whatever. Amarr might own half of the "closerange war" that you speak of(the 10-20km part), but it takes you all of 6 seconds to microwarp through that(and you'll still have some shields left). Amarr have ALWAYS had range flexibility over other races(sans calamari). Do you also whine about torp raven being blatantly OP(948 paper dps to 30km wtf?)?
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:15:00 - [129] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 19:02:33 BS are heavy dmg platforms, trying to claim they make good tacklers or that some are so much more nimble than other that it makes a difference shows how foolish and desperate you are... Yes, And I'm sure you've NEVER fit your BS with Webs/scrams/Nuets. Right? NEVER have had to get out of a bubble or back to a gate ASAP? Right? Originally by: Murina Look who owns the close range war (10-20).....amarr by far and they only need to insta reload to own in the mid range as well.... Fixed it for you. And that 10km takes all but a few seconds to MWD through. Also, where is the mega in that graph? And I never disputed The mid range. Amarr is THE mid-range race. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:24:00 - [130] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 19:24:39 Originally by: Last Wolf Yes, And I'm sure you've NEVER fit your BS with Webs/scrams/Nuets. Right? NEVER have had to get out of a bubble or back to a gate ASAP? Right? 1 web 1 scram 1 mwd 1 cap module = 4 mids or drop a web or point if you only have 3 its not like its gonna be missed in a BS gang with support/bubbles ect.. How is a secondish travel time back to a gate such a big deal to you?...if you are webbed and primarily ect you dead in any BS pal.. Originally by: Last Wolf Fixed it for you. And that 10km takes all but a few seconds to MWD through. You fixed nothing as 9km amarr was still out damaging a hype even with PERFECT (imposable) transversal (so much for your waa tracking whine)....Also you are right the gallente ships need to get into that 10km range...for every ship they are fighting over and over and over for every ship.....amarr can burn away or even sit still.. Amarr win the close and mid range fights vs gallente and mini ships pal, that's why they are OP. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.

Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:28:00 - [131] Fit an EM hardener?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:31:00 - [132] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 19:32:57 Originally by: Last Wolf Also, where is the mega in that graph? Be careful what you wish for..... Also a "perfect/imposable" transversal situation, this time with a pest included and non-overheated webs. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Amarr own dude and they need fixing.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:37:00 - [133] Originally by: Murina Oh and i like falcons i think they add spice to a engagement instead of it being a predictable slug fest. Your nublet buddy mr Captator does not have the skill or willingness to deal with them though from the look of that thread he linked... Please just stop posting, if you going to make a claim like that, back it up, if you bothered to find my killboard stats, you would know you just put your foot in your mouth.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:39:00 - [134] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 19:44:42 Originally by: Captator Originally by: Murina Oh and i like falcons i think they add spice to a engagement instead of it being a predictable slug fest. Your nublet buddy mr Captator does not have the skill or willingness to deal with them though from the look of that thread he linked... Please just stop posting, if you going to make a claim like that, back it up, if you bothered to find my killboard stats, you would know you just put your foot in your mouth. I can only see BC and well lol is this your cyno alt like mine is?..., but i can read the falcon thread and your whining is rather sad. Originally by: Captator Edit: that thread actually evinces my manipulation and editing of facts, and my lack of an open mind to change (my gang setup/fits), and was more to show that i do indeed desperately to try and defend my gank/tank limited setups. Fixed. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:42:00 - [135] Edited by: Selia Rain on 06/02/2009 19:42:47 In the first graph(second graph it's 0-9ish) it looks llike gallente own 0-10km outright. This is clearly OP and I want it fixed! Nerf gallente(again!)! Again, if lazors are so OP, fir a neut in your utility high, and an EM hardener instead of an EANM...oh wait, the 2x EANM+DCU you've probably got fitted already boost your EM resist to be the highest on your ship...
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:45:00 - [136] Originally by: Selia Rain troll Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Julie Thorne 14th Legion	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:51:00 - [137] Murina, please define "perfect transversal".
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:55:00 - [138] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 19:56:21 Originally by: Julie Thorne Murina, please define "perfect transversal". Fixed at a certain ammount, without reductions like you would get in actual combat like when a ship is orbiting you and your moving or when its orbiting another ship or gets the occasional bump or extra web on it, mwd capping out or being turned off ect ect..
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:58:00 - [139] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 19:44:42 Originally by: Captator Please just stop posting, if you going to make a claim like that, back it up, if you bothered to find my killboard stats, you would know you just put your foot in your mouth. I can only see BC and well lol is this your cyno alt like mine is?..., but i can read the falcon thread and your whining is rather sad. Where are you looking? I am seeing more recon and logistic kills on my killboards. I am actually posting on my main, the fact that you aren't/can't speaks volumes in and of itself. Originally by: murina Originally by: Captator Edit: that thread actually evinces my manipulation and editing of facts, and my lack of an open mind to change (my gang setup/fits), and was more to show that i do indeed desperately to try and defend my gank/tank limited setups. Fixed. No, I presented the numbers as they were in the thread, you obsessed over the fact that I presented 0.4644 chance to jam as 46% chance to be jammed, rather than 54% chance to not be jammed. It is the simpler conversion to make, and the more obvious and factual rebuttal is that that is still less than 50% (ofc I could counter this ). I am very open minded to fitting suggestions, but you didn't provide any, unlike me, who has provided them in nearly every thread I have posted in (can eve search my posting history, particularly where I post most for that gem). Oh and I dislike gank/tank setups too, that might be the reason I am a recon 5, near maxed ancillary skilled Amarr and Minmatar recon pilot... Put some factual content in your posts, this is getting ridiculous.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 19:59:00 - [140] I never said that! Anyways, pulse lazors have ALWAYS OWNED PAST 10km. ALWAYS. They happen to be the mid range king in eve. Someone has to be best at it. Why are they OP now? The EM armor res nerf? Tracking buff? Web nerf(yea, right), speed nerf(maybe)? Lazors use loads of cap, lazor ships are CPU limited(generally), most lazor ships have few mids to spare(geddon, zealot, retri, coercer, abso etc.), lazors do a fixed damage type(as do hybrids, but 2x EANM is still standard and 2x EANM+DCU gets EM res above 75%). Lazor ships are also generally slow, though there are exceptions(still slower than their out racial peers, crusader aside). This hypothetical situation with an amarr lazor ship kiting your mega in a 1v1 amuses me. I don't even bother to fit an MWD sometimes, let alone tackle(2x ECCM makes mids scarce). There is one lazor ship that can stand up to a mega, and that's the abbadon(unless you can give me a geddon setup with megapulse+cap boost+MWD+tackle that can solo a mega) which is a top tier gunboat vs a mid tier gunboat, and there's no way an abbadon could ever kite you due to being a brick(trimarks+mwd speed is what now?). In fact, that would still be a very close fight, from my personal experience.

Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:03:00 - [141] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Last Wolf rant. BS are heavy dmg platforms, trying to claim they make good tacklers or that some are so much more nimble than other that it makes a difference shows how foolish and desperate you are... Look who owns the close range war (0-20).....amarr by far (especially considering the graph gives the target PERFECT transversal a impossibility in eve) and they only need to insta reload to own in the mid range as well.... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. There are viable mega and hyperion fits that are competitive in the midrange (20-60km), I will let you try and figure out what they are. Perhaps you could post some fits of what you have tried (either to prove me wrong, or to prove you actually considered it).
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:04:00 - [142] Originally by: Captator Where are you looking? I am seeing more recon and logistic kills on my killboards. I am actually posting on my main, the fact that you aren't/can't speaks volumes in and of itself. I was looking here. http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Captator-kills.html And here. http://unsec.evecorps.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=24079&view=ships_weapons And im posting on a cyno alt cos im unable to use my main atm. Originally by: Captator No, I presented some of the numbers as they were in the thread, the ones that suited my purposes. ....
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:06:00 - [143] Originally by: Selia Rain Again, if lazors are so OP, fir a neut in your utility high, and an EM hardener instead of an EANM...oh wait, the 2x EANM+DCU you've probably got fitted already boost your EM resist to be the highest on your ship... Sweet irony, I will remind you Murina, if I may, of your comments on ecm and falcon threads, along the lines of 'fit ECCM nub, you should adapt your fits'. You catch yourself between your own words if you now refuse to consider fitting an EM hardener .
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:08:00 - [144] Originally by: Captator There are viable mega and hyperion fits that are competitive in the midrange (20-60km), I will let you try and figure out what they are. Perhaps you could post some fits of what you have tried (either to prove me wrong, or to prove you actually considered it). I know of no mega or hyperion fit that is great at 20-60km (like pulse) while also matching the dmg of pulse at 0-20 (without docking and refitting cos pulse BS do not need to) but by all means enlighten us if you know one.... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:10:00 - [145] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Selia Rain Again, if lazors are so OP, fir a neut in your utility high, and an EM hardener instead of an EANM...oh wait, the 2x EANM+DCU you've probably got fitted already boost your EM resist to be the highest on your ship... Sweet irony, I will remind you Murina, if I may, of your comments on ecm and falcon threads, along the lines of 'fit ECCM nub, you should adapt your fits'. You catch yourself between your own words if you now refuse to consider fitting an EM hardener . Fitting against 1 dmg type opens holes in the other 3, while fitting a eccm does not increase the effects or reduce your resists against damps and TD's ect ect nub. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:13:00 - [146] Originally by: Murina I was looking here. http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Captator-kills.html And here. http://unsec.evecorps.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=24079&view=ships_weapons And im posting on a cyno alt cos im unable to use my main atm. The battleclinic you can discount, but on the unsec link, my top two ships used are guardian and crusader, you will also see my top solo ships are the amarr recons, which part of this is consistent with me being a mainly tank/gank orientated pilot? Originally by: murina Originally by: Captator Editing what I said and missing the point by a country mile .... I posted the numbers that were most relevant to my point, it was the chance for 2 BS to be jammed for 2 minutes with 6 jammers, and I posted it not to make a point about ECCM on BS (a condition you repeatedly ignored), but to then compare this to sub BS damage ships, which have lower sensor strength (in fact on a lot of them the sensor strength when 1 ECCM is fit is comparable to the un ECCM'd BS, another point I made), so one can extrapolate from this that ECCM doesn't work on most sub BS ships. You aren't countering my points, because you are ignoring most of the point and focussing on one tiny section of it, stop it, it is a waste of effort. On topic: I like how now that I have proved that the Gallente BS can snipe just as well as the apoc the discussion has moved rapidly onto amarr close range guns.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:15:00 - [147] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Captator Sweet irony, I will remind you Murina, if I may, of your comments on ecm and falcon threads, along the lines of 'fit ECCM nub, you should adapt your fits'. You catch yourself between your own words if you now refuse to consider fitting an EM hardener . Fitting against 1 dmg type opens holes in the other 3, while fitting a eccm does not increase the effects or reduce your resists against damps and TD's ect ect nub. Tradeoffs; it reduces your theoretical resists against those mods because you cannot fit their relevant counters, you also have to trade off against propulsion, capacitor or tackle gear. This is too easy.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:16:00 - [148] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 20:15:54 Originally by: Captator On topic: I like how now that I have proved that the Gallente BS can snipe just as well as the apoc the discussion has moved rapidly onto amarr close range guns. You proved nothing the apoc is a better sniper than the mega. And your stats are poor, they look like a good pvpers monthly kills, my best month i racked up 500 for 1 loss in gangs and solo. Call me when you get to 2000. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:16:00 - [149] Originally by: Murina I know of no mega or hyperion fit that is great at 20-60km (like pulse) while also matching the dmg of pulse at 0-20 (without docking and refitting cos pulse BS do not need to) but by all means enlighten us if you know one.... No, try and work it out yourself, and again, your closed mind will limit you, because you are assuming certain things that I haven't said. (Which I won't tell you about, because that ruins my fun).
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:18:00 - [150] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 20:18:36 Originally by: Captator Originally by: Murina Originally by: Captator Sweet irony, I will remind you Murina, if I may, of your comments on ecm and falcon threads, along the lines of 'fit ECCM nub, you should adapt your fits'. You catch yourself between your own words if you now refuse to consider fitting an EM hardener . Fitting against 1 dmg type opens holes in the other 3, while fitting a eccm does not increase the effects or reduce your resists against damps and TD's ect ect nub. Tradeoffs; it reduces your theoretical resists against those mods because you cannot fit their relevant counters, you also have to trade off against propulsion, capacitor or tackle gear. This is too easy. Wtf are you ranting on about now?. Virtually every ship in the game does dmg and only a small percent do EM so leaving holes in your tank against all the others to plug EM is just stupid and you know it. Is this really the best you can do?. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.

Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:21:00 - [151] Originally by: Murina You proved nothing the apoc is a better sniper than the mega. And your stats are poor, they look like a good pvpers monthly kills, my best month i racked up 500 for 1 loss in gangs and solo. Call me when you get to 2000. I proved there is very little in it, and in the case of the hyperion it is arguably a superior sniper. Post your main's killboard stats if they are so awesome, I wonder how many of those kills are 'solo', and unless the gangs are very small, gang kills mean very little. I don't fly fleets any more, if I did, getting large numbers of recorded kills wouldn't be hard. Get back on topic or stfu incidentally.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:21:00 - [152] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Murina I know of no mega or hyperion fit that is great at 20-60km (like pulse) while also matching the dmg of pulse at 0-20 (without docking and refitting cos pulse BS do not need to) but by all means enlighten us if you know one.... No, try and work it out yourself, and again, your closed mind will limit you, because you are assuming certain things that I haven't said. (Which I won't tell you about, because that ruins my fun). Your assuming that a rail fit mega and a blaster mega are the same as a pulse BS.... Quoting the individual stats of two utterly separate fits to try and counter a single ship fit with a instant reload to match and even beat BOTH of the others is FAIL.... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:22:00 - [153] Originally by: Murina Wtf are you ranting on about now?. Virtually every ship in the game does dmg and only a small percent do EM so leaving holes in your tank against all the others to plug EM is just stupid and you know it. Is this really the best you can do?. But from what you say, amarr are doing so much dps at such range that surely the amount of effective dps coming towards you on the EM spectrum (from their scorch crystals) that it justifies that specific hardening?
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:23:00 - [154] Originally by: Murina Your assuming that a rail fit mega and a blaster mega are the same as a pulse BS.... Quoting the individual stats of two utterly separate fits to try and counter a single ship fit with a instant reload to match and even beat BOTH of the others is FAIL.... Nope, try again.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:25:00 - [155] Originally by: Captator Post your main's killboard stats if they are so awesome, I wonder how many of those kills are 'solo', and unless the gangs are very small, gang kills mean very little. I don't fly fleets any more, if I did, getting large numbers of recorded kills wouldn't be hard. Fleets such although i have been in a few over the years, my figures have suffered recently as i took a lot of time off (almost a year) to move house and start a new business but im sure if you troll through them all you will find plenty of kills in ALL forms of pvp... http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-sophisticatedlimabean-kills.html Now stfu and let the grown ups talk. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:27:00 - [156] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Murina Your assuming that a rail fit mega and a blaster mega are the same as a pulse BS.... Quoting the individual stats of two utterly separate fits to try and counter a single ship fit with a instant reload to match and even beat BOTH of the others is FAIL.... Nope, try again. No blaster in the game does dps at 60km and no rail can match a pulse dps at 0-20 so stfu and stop acting like you know stuff you have no clue about. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:31:00 - [157] If a relatively small fraction of ships do EM damage(raven, phoon, mael, pest, geddon, abbadon, apoc, being a minority of the battleships, right?), then why whine they they're OP? Even with a typical mega omnitank (2x T2 EANM, DCU II), your resists are something like 75.1EM, 67.6KI, 67.6TH, 55.1EX. EM and therm are two of your highest resist, and EM(being the primary damage you'd be taking in your impossibly hypothetical 1v1 situation) would be your highest. A typical amarr ship with the same setup has less kin res(your racial strength, but a more even 60%EX res. A lazor ship will already be hitting your strongest res, where you'll be hitting his midline resists. You're doing more damage once you close to range, and you have a similar ehp buffer(aside from abbadon which would have higher resists, but I have no trouble with a higher tier ship being more "tanky". Abbadon also has significantly less drone dps and thus damage flexibility. There's a reason that you train wasp or berserker IIs when you're in a geddon.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:37:00 - [158] Originally by: Selia Rain If a relatively small fraction of ships do EM damage(raven, phoon, mael, pest, geddon, abbadon, apoc, being a minority of the battleships, right?), then why whine they they're OP? Standard omni tanks were taken into account in some if not all the graphs, and all lasers, missiles if theirs a hole and other ships do em dmg so omni tanking unless you can gaurentee what your facing is always best. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:39:00 - [159] Originally by: Murina My main cannot post atm but i do not hide it ever. Fleets such suck although i have been in a few over the years, my figures have suffered recently as i took a lot of time off (almost a year) to move house and start a new business but im sure if you troll through them all you will find plenty of kills in ALL forms of pvp...I prefer smallish high spec gang pvp but i have pretty much done it all over the years. http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-sophisticatedlimabean-kills.html The board only goes back to 05 unfortunately. Now stfu and let the grown ups talk. Having gone through about 10 killboards, on which you have a significant number of kills (over 50), and a few more where you have less, I see that you: 1) flew nanoships quite a lot when they were popular 2) when you flew/fly battleships, it was almost exclusively in gangs 3) when flying ships such as deimos/brutix, I rarely see you in solo action against a meaningful target, and have far more commonly seen you in gang with at least one ecm ship. 4) Most of your kills are in a falcon , and as such can be discounted as proof you are a good pvper, though it does hold weight against you in falcon threads; vested interest much? Incidentally most of your recent kills are in gangs where you are not the only falcon, which is also pretty funny. Any idiot can use a falcon effectively in my opinion, and incidentally this idiot will soon be doing so. I still want it changed.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:41:00 - [160] Originally by: Murina No BS blaster in the game does dps at 60km and no rail can match a pulse dps at 0-20 so stfu and stop acting like you know stuff you have no clue about. This is the bit where I said your closed mind would render you unable to solve my riddle, so far you are proving me correct. Hint; what assumptions are you making here, which of them match what I have said?

Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:43:00 - [161] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Selia Rain If a relatively small fraction of ships do EM damage(raven, phoon, mael, pest, geddon, abbadon, apoc, being a minority of the battleships, right?), then why whine they they're OP? Standard omni tanks were taken into account in some if not all the graphs, and all lasers, missiles if theirs a hole and other ships do em dmg so omni tanking unless you can gaurentee what your facing is always best. You could use a 4 slot hardener tank, or a resist rig instead of a trimark (if after all the EM damage is that potent due to the amarr pulse BS)
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:51:00 - [162] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 20:54:51 Originally by: Captator 1) flew nanoships quite a lot when they were popular Duh, play for nearly 6 years and you will pick the fun and effective fits as well. Originally by: Captator 2) when you flew/fly battleships, it was almost exclusively in gangs You will find a bit of solo BS work but the ship is not designed for it unless you count the nano domi era. Anyway solo pvp is not about skill its about target choice. Originally by: Captator 3) when flying ships such as deimos/brutix, I rarely see you in solo action against a meaningful target, and have far more commonly seen you in gang with at least one ecm ship. I think i was given a deimos a few years ago cos thats the only reason i would get in one tbh, but i cannot remember the last time i flew a brutix unless it was a one off on the market when i needed a ship and couldn't be bothered to travel. Originally by: Captator 4) Most of your kills are in a falcon , and as such can be discounted as proof you are a good pvper I fly lots of ships a lot including the falcon although i have not had it trained for that long so most of my kills are NOT in a falcon although the more recent history has a lot of mails with me in a falcon. You have no idea what makes a good pvper as your solo comments have already shown, solo pvp is all about what you are flying and what you KNOW it can kill before you even engage it, that is not skill pal its just target choice and target choice is not skill. Skilled pvp is about teamwork and how the team performs as a unit not the individual so no matter what ship you fly its about how your team performs and how effective it is in combat when against equal or larger numbers. If you were not a noob you would know that.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 20:53:00 - [163] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 20:57:46 Originally by: Captator Originally by: Murina No BS blaster in the game does dps at 60km and no rail can match a pulse dps at 0-20 so stfu and stop acting like you know stuff you have no clue about. words Prove me wrong or stfu. Rail fit megas are a waste of time under 30km let alone 20 and they do not come close to matching pulse dmg even against a stationary bloody outpost let alone a moving ship.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:02:00 - [164] Ad Hominem attacks aside(I'm a reformed nanololsploiter, good times, who can fly falcon as well, though I'd rather fly something, anything else), I'm just curious as to how your hypothetical pixie magic graph ships are fit. geddon with megapulse II, 3x sinks, and 2x plates with EANM II needs to fit a named DCU to fit. To get an MWD on in with cap booster you need to drop a plate or not cap boost(yeah, right, when just your guns firing cap you out in a few minutes) to get the pg. Mega can comfortably fit 2x plates, MWD, electrochem injector, and T2 neutrons. With 2mfs, you're doing just slightly less turret dps than the geddon(but geddon deals full dps at 15km), and being gallente and only caring about raw damage, you are probably using ogre II just for the dps boost, but that's speculation(I heart berserkers). You have 8k more EHP, and an MWD fit. If you opt for 3x MFS you have a bit less buffer, but a whole lot more dps. Abbadon can comfortably fit as the mega, and deals even less damage(not even counting the smallish dronebay), with less cap stability, and far more ehp than the geddon. In an abbadon(which is not a great solo ship, but it can work) solo, I'd feel comfortable engaging a mega due to sheer ehp and my warrior II/vespa II/valk IIs can be annoying to your ogres. In neither situation do my lazors give me a significant advantage over your blasters. I'm doing less raw damage on stronger resists, in fact. I can't kite you at all due to being slow as a sedated snail in molasses, so the only percieved advantage I have is that I can lay into you with scorch, then navy AM as you close before you rip my face off.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:05:00 - [165] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 21:08:09 Originally by: Selia Rain I'm just curious as to how your hypothetical pixie magic graph ships are fit. Resists, ammo, gun/dmg mods and drones (ogreII's) were included and are at the bottom of the graph, but the ships are all pretty standard gang fit. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:08:00 - [166] Bottom line: Everybody agrees that the rokh needs a boost^^
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:15:00 - [167] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 20:54:51 Originally by: Captator 1) flew nanoships quite a lot when they were popular Duh, play for nearly 6 years and you will pick the fun and effective fits as well. Originally by: Captator 2) when you flew/fly battleships, it was almost exclusively in gangs You will find a bit of solo BS work but the ship is not designed for it unless you count the nano domi era. Anyway solo pvp is not about skill its about target choice. Originally by: Captator 3) when flying ships such as deimos/brutix, I rarely see you in solo action against a meaningful target, and have far more commonly seen you in gang with at least one ecm ship. I think i was given a deimos a few years ago cos thats the only reason i would get in one tbh, but i cannot remember the last time i flew a brutix unless it was a one off on the market when i needed a ship and couldn't be bothered to travel. Originally by: Captator 4) Most of your kills are in a falcon , and as such can be discounted as proof you are a good pvper I fly lots of ships a lot including the falcon although i have not had it trained for that long so most of my kills are NOT in a falcon although the more recent history has a lot of mails with me in a falcon. You have no idea what makes a good pvper as your solo comments have already shown, solo pvp is all about what you are flying and what you KNOW it can kill before you even engage it, that is not skill pal its just target choice and target choice is not skill. Skilled pvp is about teamwork and how the team performs as a unit not the individual so no matter what ship you fly its about how your team performs and how effective it is in combat when against equal or larger numbers. If you were not a noob you would know that. 1-3 are excuses, not particularly good ones either, as for 4: The main boards I looked at, I saw 88/108 kills in falcon on NC kb, 61/66 kills in falcon on OMIST board, on FATAL board I don't see any falcon kills, but the most recent kill on that board is mid 2007, and most of the kills are fleet action, and so discountable as testament to skilful piloting. Going to battleclinic, all of the most recent kills are in falcons, no deviation at all. It doesn't take skill to camp off a gate in a falcon. Link me some solo roaming, solo kills, or small gang (w/o ecm), and I might re-evaluate you. So you have exclusively flown falcon it seems for the last year and a bit. Addressing your other points then, I hardly call it teamwork to be able to roll up to what may or may not be an even fight, and press f1-6 (assuming you moved your jam icons to the highslots). Clearly you don't solo much if at all, as it is impossible in a falcon , so how would you know how it works? Some of us like to challenge ourselves, sure I will engage a solo deimos in my curse, but I will also take on 3 domis with an ishtar and an arazu backing me up, and see if we can take them down (we couldn't as it happened ), or take on a 5 man cruiser gang in a pilgrim with an arbi as backup. There is very little point in playing a game that you always win, either you need the meagre ego boost, or you really are missing out. I feel sorry for you now.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:19:00 - [168] Originally by: Naomi Knight Bottom line: Everybody agrees that the rokh needs a boost^^ Actually..... just kidding ...but seriously (spot the pop culture reference if you can/dare ) 340 dps at 223km optimal with DDD proof shields (which regen) and a MWD.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:20:00 - [169] Edited by: Selia Rain on 06/02/2009 21:22:44 My definition of gang fit might not be the same as yours(in fact, clearly not if you don't fit ECCM on closerange battleships). I see the number of damage mods and drone types, but no other fit information(resists aside). My point is: Fancy graphs and EFT theorycraft aside, the only advantage lazors have is that they can hit to 15km with AN MF, and 45km with scorch. For that matter a 'pest can hit to 36km easy(optimal+falloff), and the mael can fit a normal fit and have the pg to use 3x falloff rigs for 6+46km. But it's not op because fighting in falloff means less dps? For the mael this directly equates to more dps at any range it'd be engaging at, or far better projected dps with RF EMP. You have tracking, dps, and ease of fit, ease of use(cap use). On abbadon megapulse lazors use more than twice the cap of neutrons, and on geddon they still use significantly more. My ships are slower, and have a bonus that serves no purpose then to allow me to be able to fire my lazors for a bit longer without capping out. Oh right, lazors need that bonus because they're sooo overpowered. Can't stop the rokh, can't stop the rokh! Rokh could use a +damage bonus(maybe a halfassed +damage bonus like the apoc's range bonus) instead of the fairly useless shield resist bonus(useless aside from blaster fits or l4s I mean) But honestly the rokh is fine(easy to fit, easy to get good range out of), aside from nominally subpar dps with rails.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:28:00 - [170] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 21:31:09 Originally by: Captator excuses Excuses for what?. I am more than happy with my history and the skills and pvp experience i have and its considerably greater than a so called solo pvper with hardly any experience or kills, and i have no need to justify nor excuse it to a noob like you. I am a pvper along with others who work as part of a tight unit that relies on each other to gain kills against gangs larger than ourselves while trying to minimize losses through teamwork. You are not a pvper your a target selector (in a style of what can only jokingly be called pvp) that you know before you even engage if you can win or not. Your comments on the falcon uncloaking and hitting f1-f6 is considerably more like your idea of ganking than it is anywhere near to mine, you are nothing more than a target caller looking for guaranteed kills cos that is all solo is. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.

Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:31:00 - [171] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Naomi Knight Bottom line: Everybody agrees that the rokh needs a boost^^ Actually..... just kidding ...but seriously (spot the pop culture reference if you can/dare ) 340 dps at 223km optimal with DDD proof shields (which regen) and a MWD. Pls post fitting then , i cant do that with my rokh :( oh and need cap at least for 6 mins ^^
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:38:00 - [172] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Captator excuses Excuses for what?. I am more than happy with my history and the skills and pvp experience i have and its considerably greater than a so called solo pvper with hardly any experience or kills, and i have no need to justify nor excuse it to a noob like you. I am a pvper along with others who work as part of a tight unit that relies on each other to gain kills against gangs larger than ourselves while trying to minimize losses through teamwork. You are not a pvper your a target selector in a style of pvp that you know before you even engage if you can win or not. Your comments on the falcon uncloaking and hitting f1-f6 is considerably more like your idea of ganking than it is anywhere near to mine, you are nothing more than a target caller lokking for gaurenteed kills cos thats all solo is. Again you desperately latch onto the edges of my points, rather than my main point. You were trying to excuse your pvp record, I wasn't making a judgement on your history at all, other than that you are by nature going to be heavily biased against things that can hurt falcons, as you fly them almost exclusively. So to make the above really clear for you, you didn't need to try and excuse your pvp record, but you went ahead and did it anyway, which again is revealing. From what I have seen on your recent killboards, you gank, and you are the gang safety net. I am not a 'target selector' as you put it, I have sat in belts just waiting to see if anything will come to me, so in that case, generally the other person is the 'target selector' thinking they can win. I also try to pick fights that I will find fun, which are generally the closer ones, if the winner ends up in low hull, it was a good fight, regardless of whether I won or lost. In the case of curse/pilgrim, my idea of a good fight is low shield and a few drones lost for curse, and low armour on the pilgrim. A recent example of what could have been a good fight had I not had a power cut, would be where I took my vagabond (post QR vaga ftw) up against an arbitrator, thorax and pilgrim. I am hardly guaranteed a win or even a kill with that combination of targets. I don't gank, because it is boring and easy, and I play this game to have fun, odd isn't it? Look at this profusion of examples of how not a gankbear I am, and look at the deficit of your own.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:41:00 - [173] Originally by: Naomi Knight Pls post fitting then , i cant do that with my rokh :( oh and need cap at least for 6 mins ^^ Drop me a mail ingame, I will reply with the fit when I am next on
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 21:50:00 - [174] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 21:50:11 Originally by: Captator Clearly you don't solo much if at all, as it is impossible in a falcon Solo is target calling/availability and ship recognition practice for noobs, but its nice to see you agreeing that the falcon is far from the uber ship you say it is. Originally by: Captator and I play this game to have fun, odd isn't it? Fun is winning against the odds or even losing but having a awesome and detailed/technical fight by using teamwork and skill, not sitting in a belt or wherever waiting for summat to turn up that may or may not kill you depending on what type of ship it is. When you join a good pvp corp/alliance where everybody flies a specific ship, with a specific fit in a tight knit gang setup to counter as much ships and as many fits as it possibly can you will understand that. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 22:09:00 - [175] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Captator Clearly you don't solo much if at all, as it is impossible in a falcon Solo is target calling/availability and ship recognition practice for noobs, but its nice to see you agreeing that the falcon is far from the uber ship you say it is. wasn't it you who was so emphatically saying gang =! solo? Originally by: murina Originally by: Captator and I play this game to have fun, odd isn't it? Fun is winning against the odds or even losing but having a awesome and detailed/technical fight by using teamwork and skill, not sitting in a belt or wherever waiting for summat to turn up that may or may not kill you depending on what type of ship it is. When you join a good pvp corp/alliance where everybody flies a specific ship, with a specific fit in a tight knit gang setup to counter as much ships and as many fits as it possibly can you will understand that. Yes, because when I fly as a logistics pilot in a small remote rep gang I utilise none of these skills ? The waiting in belts was an example of how I don't select my fights like how you suggest soloing is; a selected series of ganks. Don't try to get all mother ducky, it doesn't suit you, and given both your killboard stats and your fact heavy posting , it doesn't fit our dynamic either. Would you like to continue our discussion on ECM as a gameplay system in the other thread? Not whether it is over or underpowered, merely whether the system is the best one, and if not, whether it can be changed without affecting its effectiveness. I think this thread is done.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 22:17:00 - [176] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 22:19:37 Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 22:18:04 Originally by: Captator wasn't it you who was so emphatically saying gang =! solo? Gang vs gang combat is more skill intensive than solo will ever be, and falcons are also useless solo ships, the two points are not exclusive nub. Originally by: Captator Yes, because when I fly as a logistics pilot in a small remote rep gang I utilise none of these skills ? The waiting in belts was an example of how I don't select my fights like how you suggest soloing is; a selected series of ganks. Logistic piloting is a lot like falcon piloting in its application within a small tight knit gang, you sacrifice doing dmg and offensive maneuvering for the team, its a shame you do not have the experience to understand or develop that piloting skill yet. Just because you wait in belts does not change the fact that your kills or losses in that situation is all about what ship decides to warp to it more than skill.
Jack Jombardo Amarr Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.02.06 22:43:00 - [177] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Jack Jombardo You like a Gallente counterpart for the Apoc? I like a Amarr counterpart for the Domi ;). Both the other amarr BS hit harder and for more range with pulse than the domi does with drones pal. Anyway drones are a gallente affection, while sniping is not a ammar one it is just a whine boost the ninja'd that is coming back to kick them in the butt. Most times it's not all about max DPS/range but "ability to help fleet". This might be pur DPS or max range. But it can also be a suport rool. And beeing able to switch damage type is pur gold for missions! 1000 DPS EM/THERM Geddon against Guristas == 250 REAL dps 500 DPS KIN drones from Domi against Guristas == 400 REAL dps but yes, on EFT the Geddon does more DPS ;) just not allways in real g space. For PvP and POS-shoting this means: Domi can switch damage to best-fit the attacked tower. Geddon can not!
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 22:51:00 - [178] Edited by: Captator on 06/02/2009 22:51:54 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 22:34:02 Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 22:33:05 Originally by: Captator wasn't it you who was so emphatically saying gang =! solo? Gang vs gang combat is more skill intensive than solo will ever be, and falcons are also useless solo ships, the two points are not exclusive nub. Originally by: Captator Yes, because when I fly as a logistics pilot in a small remote rep gang I utilise none of these skills ? The waiting in belts was an example of how I don't select my fights like how you suggest soloing is; a selected series of ganks. Logistic piloting is a lot like falcon piloting in its application within a small tight knit gang, you sacrifice doing dmg and offensive maneuvering for the team, its a shame you do not have the experience to understand or develop that piloting/teamwork skill yet or that your only willing to apply it to logistics. Just because you wait in belts does not change the fact that your kills or losses in that situation is all about what ship decides to warp to it more than skill. I am guessing this is a no to acting like grown ups and taking the falcon discussion back to a more relevant thread. Very well: 1) Stop calling me nub, you aren't qualified to deem me such. 2) If you actually did solo, you would know that solo combat is much more intensive on player skill than gang combat in most areas, that is why a lot of people view it as a mark of a good pvper, if they have a good solo record. 3) I have flown fleet TD boats in gang before, I have flown dedicated tackler, so I have flown other dedicated support roles, I will turn this on its tail, and throw it right back at you: shame you can't get out of your falcon, and can't solo. 4) In the belt situation (why do you get so fixated on ancillary points, it's so boring) I am no longer the 'target caller' for myself, I am letting someone else think they can match or outdo me and choose to engage, from then on it is a test of my skill in combat, not at selecting a target. It was a point made to off-the-bat counter yours, but it seems you have got it by the wrong end and are shaking it vigorously, enjoy... edit: spag
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 22:59:00 - [179] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 23:07:25 Originally by: Captator 1) Stop calling me nub, you aren't qualified to deem me such. Its a term of rank within eve and considering your skillset its a compliment. Originally by: Captator 2) If you actually did solo, you would know that solo combat is much more intensive on player skill than gang combat in most areas, that is why a lot of people view it as a mark of a good pvper, if they have a good solo record. Solo is little more than math and target selection plain and simple, although somebody did try to tell me it was all about skill and not about ship fits. Then they got into a discussion on another thread i was reading and made a honest post but a silly mistake considering the argument they were having with me....do you like my sig btw i had to add it as the comment was just a total gem when you consider how much the tool was going on about solo being all about skill and not ships/fits in one thread....a lot like you actually. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.06 23:16:00 - [180] Originally by: murina Solo is little more than math and target selection plain and simple, although somebody did try to tell me it was all about skill and not about ship fits. Then they got into a discussion on another thread i was reading and made a honest post but a silly mistake considering the argument they were having with me....do you like my sig btw i had to add it as the comment was just a total gem when you consider how much the tool was going on about solo being all about skill and not ships/fits in one thread....a lot like you actually. Gangs are little more than maths if you extrapolate from your own statement, just a few extra variables to plug in, if you want to extrapolate even further, the entire game is basically maths. This view of yours about solo is naive and wrong, much like it would be if I held a similar view for gangs. As for the second part, part of the skill of pvp is knowing how to fit your ship, so on that note what they are saying tautological. The second part is indeed beautifully ironic, perhaps there is hope for you yet . I haven't said that solo is all about skill and nothing about fits (as I believe that to be tautological), all I have said on the matter is that it is harder than gang warfare (or at least I find it to be, as the gangs I fly in are like a well oiled machine). I haven't gone into specifics, but if you want me to I can. Out of interest, what ship were they talking about?

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.06 23:26:00 - [181] Edited by: Murina on 06/02/2009 23:41:30 Originally by: Captator Gangs are little more than maths if you extrapolate from your own statement, just a few extra variables to plug in, if you want to extrapolate even further, the entire game is basically maths. Sum involving 10-20+ numbers plus the variety of fits and abilities they bring has considerably more variables than one involving 2 numbers. Originally by: Captator Out of interest, what ship were they talking about? It was a discussion about several SOLO gank ships and the available targets they could beat and the various fits they needed to do so (lol its all skill at solo hey pal), but that particular comment may have been about a crusader i think but i am not 100% sure.
hobo deluxe	Posted - 2009.02.07 11:50:00 - [182] Murina could you please comment on the fact that practically ALL armor omni tanks (2eanm,1dcu) have around 75% EM resist and 66% therm as their 2 HIGHEST resists? Geddon , apoc and abaddon more often then not face armor resistances that are considerably higher (em/therm) then hybrid using ships, EM 75% while kinetic is often just 55%-60% atmost on armor ships that means a 15-20% damage difference. Anyhow i really dont see how you dare say medium slots arent that important in gang.. sure battleships shouldnt tackle but there are things like eccm (very important these days) sensor boosters,cap boosters, tracking disruptors wich are all very usefull in gangs. To be honest i think you missed several VERY important points in your explanation mainly because you only look at raw dps , raw range , just ehp , etc. Finaly , regarding tach's i agree they could use a nerf on damage or tracking BUT reduce their PG requirements coz they are utterly impossible to fit without fitting mods.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 12:03:00 - [183] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 12:06:12 Originally by: hobo deluxe Murina could you please comment on the fact that practically ALL armor omni tanks (2eanm,1dcu) have around 75% EM resist and 66% therm as their 2 HIGHEST resists? Geddon , apoc and abaddon more often then not face armor resistances that are considerably higher (em/therm) then hybrid using ships, EM 75% while kinetic is often just 55%-60% atmost on armor ships that means a 15-20% damage difference. LOL, do you think Murina cares about that?, hah, as long his EFT stats shows that Amarr BS'es / Tachs have the highest stats, they are teh bestest. My Tempest have 80% EM and 67% Thermal resists. So yeah, Lasers aren't the thing that hurt me much tbh. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 12:09:00 - [184] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 12:12:12 I fitted the Myrm, using 2 EANMs. Stats are: Shield: 4883 (12.5, 30, 47.5. 56.3) Armor: 11110 (75.1, 67.6, 67.6, 55.1) Hull: 5371 (60, 60, 60, 60) Average resists: 66, 61, 63, 57 Compared to the standard Tempest numbers of: 74, 63, 60, 56 When not using Minmatar EM bonuses, and the shift in weighting, the 74 to 66 will increase EM damage by 30%. I.E. we are a lot closer to omni-resists. Here is the graph, including drones, and the Myrm resists. Amarr are kings from 14km-50+km against armor tanks and due to the naturally low speeds of BC/BS and webs they hit hard and well under 14km as well, almost matching blasters.... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.07 12:16:00 - [185] hai guyz is this the i.c. RP thread?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 12:16:00 - [186] And since we have always compared a BC that is magically orbiting with a transveral of 188m/s at (worst case) all times, let's consider a scenario where transversal is low - zero (best case). Now lasers win from 9km, and never lose the lead. 9 km pal, with lasers firing upon a ship with good EM resists. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:20:00 - [187] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 13:24:06 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 13:22:45 Originally by: Murina The Myrm fitted using 2 EANMs. Stats are: Shield: 4883 (12.5, 30, 47.5. 56.3) Armor: 11110 (75.1, 67.6, 67.6, 55.1) Hull: 5371 (60, 60, 60, 60) [Myrmidon, myrm] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Medium Armor Repairer II armor resists: 87.2% 67.6% 83.3% 55.1%
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:23:00 - [188] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 13:24:51 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina The Myrm fitted using 2 EANMs. Stats are: Shield: 4883 (12.5, 30, 47.5. 56.3) Armor: 11110 (75.1, 67.6, 67.6, 55.1) Hull: 5371 (60, 60, 60, 60) [Myrmidon, myrm] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Medium Armor Repairer II armor resists: 87.2% 67.6% 83.3% 55.1% Gratz you know how to fit active hardeners that will help if you ever need to fight 1 v 1 against a amarr ship, wanna cookie?. Whats next "how to fire your guns" 101....?.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:27:00 - [189] Edited by: fuxinos on 07/02/2009 13:27:41 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 12:30:30 Originally by: fuxinos 1. Gayllentes would need to give up a ship then, Megathron or Hyperion. Hyperion as sniper looks ugly and who wants to lose his OMGWTFBBQBLASTERTHRON? Looks aint everything and both ships bonuses and stats can be reworked very easily. Originally by: fuxinos 2. Since Minmatar have a lot of damagebonis on their ships and to lose one of them to optimalbonus on Maelstrom or Tempest, would kick their dps into Frigateclass. Cos bonuses to ships modules or ammo cannot be adjusted?.... Yea, the one who speaks out the obvious stuff... But will CCP do all that, just to give 2 Races longrange capability, even if their not supposed to have longrange ships? It would be quite a lot of balancework to do. ... Think before you talk...
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:31:00 - [190] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 13:32:18 Originally by: fuxinos But will CCP do all that, just to give 2 Races longrange capability, even if their not supposed to have longrange ships? Who says they are not supposed to have long range ships?, nobody decides that and if they do they can easily change their mids as they did when they gave the apoc a range bonus. Its odd how ppl say these available "ranges" and "roles" are set in stone AFTER their race ships get the buff....

7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:32:00 - [191] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 13:34:36 nah what's next is this: the raw paper dps is an argument you can toss straight out the window the actual inflicted damage is what matters.. so on paper some amarr ships do more dps than gallente but in actuality gallente has more overall inflicted damage, due to kin/therm... they also have the most powerful drones (hob II, ogre II, garde II, firbolg) gallente is a pretty good race.. i can fly their cmd ships and hac's.. and they're quite neat and have awesome tanking. i would even venture to say that gallente are some of the strongest armor tankers in game.. due to them skipping explosive dmg and having higher em therm and kin as base, thus gaining an edge. the only ones who have serious issues against amarr are shield tankers with their low EM.. armor tankers have natural high em.. gallente does the best inflicted damage type in game.. they then have range issues when it comes to their blasters in order to compensate, but that hasn't stopped gallente from being king of the hill in pvp for what.. 3 years? then combat starts to favour mid range, and ppl start flying amarr more.. or they become more viable.. not cause they do more actual inflicted dmg than gallente but because their range is more appropriate for the combat style now, thus the lower inflicted damage becomes a smaller factor. and here you are pointing out what exactly?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:38:00 - [192] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 13:44:39 Originally by: 7shining7one7 nah what's next is this: the raw paper dps is an argument you can toss straight out the window the actual inflicted damage is what matters.. so on paper some amarr ships do more dps than gallente but in actuality gallente has more overall inflicted damage, due to kin/therm... they also have the most powerful drones, that also do kin/therm. (hob II, ogre II, garde II, firbolg) So in your game of eve only gallente can use gallente drones or you think gallente get special bonuses to gallente drones in particular?, and the tanking idea is lame cos every tank plugs the resistance holes in its Armour/shields even plated setups do so. Maybe when ccp lets you shoot the unfitted ships on the market your ideas on resists will have some basis in reality. Originally by: 7shining7one7 but that hasn't stopped gallente from being king of the hill in pvp for what.. 3 years? You slept through the whole nano era with the vaga and rapier owning all did ya?. Gallente have always been middle of the road but with the web nerf and the boost to pulse tracking BS AC and blasters have fallen to far behind.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:47:00 - [193] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 13:55:04 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 13:52:26 Originally by: Murina So in your game of eve only gallente can use gallente drones or you think gallente get special bonuses to gallente drones in particular?, and the tanking idea is lame cos every tank plugs the resistance holes in its Armour/shields even plated setups do so. Maybe when ccp lets you shoot the unfitted ships on the market your ideas on resists will have some basis in reality. Originally by: 7shining7one7 but that hasn't stopped gallente from being king of the hill in pvp for what.. 3 years? You slept through the whole nano era with the vaga and rapier owning all did ya?. i can fly gallente cmd ships and hacs, so i actually have flown gallente ships.. the base resists are important cause they make the achievable resists that much higher. the gallente resists are even more viable now that the nano era is over. now if you want to talk against explosive dmg then gallente might have slight issues. but vs amarr.. they are simply sublime.. the irony of gallente whining about facing amarr is just mindblowing.. there's a reason why per the storyline the gallente federation stopped the amarr empire from taking over eve.. there's a reason why gallente skips explosive resists in order to get high em and good kin/therm resists.. that's cause that's exactly what is good to do against amarr.. and the kin covers the other two races.. the explo is a marginal issue that only is rough when facing minny or caldari pilots who focus solely on explo aka are fit purely to combat gallente (and that's more the exception than the rule). gallente have it easy against amarr.. even more so than amarr/minny.. minny's got their asses kicked by amarr.. they used to be slaves of the amarr.. amarr has higher explo resists and lowered kin/therm in order to combat minny.. and in comes gallente exploiting that amarr has minny as their natural enemy and thus has higher explo but lower kin/therm, and literally tears them apart.. complain all you want about the apoc being viable as sniper, gallente is still the king of actual inflicted damage when being within optimal.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 13:57:00 - [194] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Now unless ccp are gonna enforce storyline mechanics and make it imposable for certain ships to fire at others you will be facing a variety of ships and races in combat so i suggest you omni tank. PPL plug the holes they have in resist...FACT, just because they have a hole in explosive does not mean gallente are weak against it cos its the first area they will plug. The graphs i posted cover the most popular omni gang tanks in the game, and body can fit race specific resist and as such base dmg types vs market/unfitted reststs is a worthless way of balancing systems.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:12:00 - [195] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 14:13:12 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 13:59:17 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Now unless ccp are gonna enforce storyline mechanics and make it imposable for certain ships to fire at others you will be facing a variety of ships and races in combat so i suggest you omni tank. PPL plug the holes they have in resists...FACT, just because they have a hole in explosive on a unfitted ship does not mean gallente are weak against it cos its the first area they will plug. The graphs i posted cover the most popular omni gang tanks in the game, anybody can fit race specific resists, and as such base dmg types vs market/unfitted resists is a worthless way of balancing systems. you use a myrm where you only fit 2 eanm II's and a dc II in the low and nothing else, leaving 3 low slots unattended to. you then use those resists to market your idea that amarr is superior i fill out the rest of the low slots showing how tough a deal amarr is being cut with their primary/secondary dmg types against gallente.. and you backtrack saying it's erroneous cause you need to omni fit.. guess what.. the fit had 55% explo.. 83% kin, 87% em and 67% therm.. that's one of the best omni fits you can get out of a myrm without using faction or rigs.. and then you go back to your on paper raw dps discussion.. why don't you just admit that the only answer you are willing to accept is not the right one, but only the one that fits with your line of arguments.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:20:00 - [196] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 14:23:22 Originally by: 7shining7one7 you use a myrm where you only fit 2 eanm II's and a dc II in the low and nothing else, leaving 3 low slots unattended to. you then use those resists to market your idea that amarr is superior i fill out the rest of the low slots showing how tough a deal amarr is being cut with their primary/secondary dmg types against gallente.. and you backtrack saying it's erroneous cause you need to omni fit.. guess what.. the fit had 55% explo.. 83% kin, 87% em and 67% therm.. that's one of the best omni fits you can get out of a myrm without using faction or rigs.. and then you go back to your on paper raw dps discussion.. why don't you just admit that the only answer you are willing to accept is not the right one, but only the one that fits with your line of arguments. You are missing the point utterly. The graphs were to show the effect against transversal speed not resists, the resists were added as a after thought to show not just a myrm omni tank but a BS plated omni/high ehp tank as well. High resists and a repper are for 1 v 1 situations not gang combat and can be adjusted to what race you are facing, but the fact is balanced resists and plates are the gang tank of choice and my modals show DMG vs high and low transversal + high ehp omni tanks as that is what they were designed to do, the ship used to show the example is not important. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:34:00 - [197] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 14:36:41 NOTE: The dps in this fit is a result of using 5 hardwirings.. a 5% rof, a 5% pg, a 5% cap and a 5% large hybrid dmg. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught] Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier Domination 100MN MicroWarpdrive Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Hybrid Burst Aerator II Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5 ehp 90k. 20k armor dps: 1337 with t1 antimatter (yep i'm not kidding bout the 1337) dps: 1514 with caldari navy antimatter.. cap for 3 minutes with everything on. cap stable with everything on (except mwd), at 57% find me an abaddon, apoc or geddon that can live through that.. they might be able to fire lasers but they can't move around for **** due to pg/cap issues.. pwn? i dare say it is.. it's kin/therm dmg type.. which means significantly more inflicted damage than amarr could ever dream of.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:40:00 - [198] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 14:43:28 Originally by: 7shining7one7 silly 1 v 1 sissi fit that relies on the opposing ship being already at close range, alone and its warp engines broken to kill anything..... The one that warps off cos its not pointed would survive i suppose...... What would be the available range of that max dps btw?...1-2ish km If i ever decide to live on sissi and around the BF areas i will say that gallente do have good fits that work okish in those areas as long as the opposing ship does not warp and as long as the fight starts at rather close range. Most ppl play on TQ without BF areas however... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:43:00 - [199] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 14:44:23 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 silly 1 v 1 sissi fit that relies on the opposing ship being already at close range, alone and its warp engines broken to kill anything..... The one that warps off cos its not pointed would survive i suppose...... What would be the available range of that max dps btw?...1-2ish km 2.5km and 15k falloff.. 11km and 16k falloff with null.. and 1236 dps.. but blasters aren't for long range, it's the usual mwd + web. why would you fit a point, that's what your tacklers are for, this is an arrive late ship. also if you are talking a clear 1v1 gallente would pwn amarr every f'ing time.. amarr is dependent on gallente to be out of range.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:47:00 - [200] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 silly 1 v 1 sissi fit that relies on the opposing ship being already at close range, alone and its warp engines broken to kill anything..... The one that warps off cos its not pointed would survive i suppose...... What would be the available range of that max dps btw?...1-2ish km 2.5km and 15k falloff.. 11km and 16k falloff with null.. and 1236 dps.. but blasters aren't for long range, it's the usual mwd + web. why would you fit a point, that's what your tacklers are for, this is an arrive late ship. also if you are talking a clear 1v1 gallente would pwn amarr every f'ing time.. amarr is dependent on gallente to be out of range. Its not even close to being as effective as a abaddon, 2.5km of good dps lol. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:52:00 - [201] If you're going to compare ships, at least compare the right ships and give a reasonable explanation of what is happening. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=937520&page=20#585
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:53:00 - [202] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 14:55:15 Its not even close to being as effective as amarr BS pal, 2.5km of good dps lol....vs 50+km WANNA SEE HOW LOW-ZERO TRANSVERSAL LOOKS?. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:55:00 - [203] Hitting well at 50km doesn't make much difference if your enemy is 5km from you. Yes, pulse lasers are better for large gangs. Just as they are bad when you're moving and likely to land <12km from someone.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:57:00 - [204] Originally by: Goumindong Hitting well at 50km doesn't make much difference if your enemy is 5km from you. Yes, pulse lasers are better for large gangs. Just as they are bad when you're moving and likely to land <12km from someone. They work fine under 12km when you consider the available targets for BS, that is part of the problem. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:00:00 - [205] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 15:02:54 lol at the hype fit in the graph, the hype fit i presented is well above the dps scale in that i love how you are trying to slide the cap stable hyperion 1514 dps fit back in the pages by spamming your graph picture.. and it's not just 2.5km.. it's 15km falloff and it has a 15km web fitted.. and 1514 dps ffs!!!! and if you wanna opt for 27k range (optimal + falloff) with null then you got 1236 dps.. show me an amarr ship that can do that.. also do you suggest amarr pilots starts mwd'ing out of range? i'd love to see the cap calculations and the viable fits for that. amarr can sit still and tank nicely, do medium inflicted dmg from medium range or warp out. i really can't see how 1514 dps kin/therm (best overall dmg types) is subpar to a 600 dps abaddon who can't move and has cap issues.. but i'm sure you're right.. amarr are just uber at everything..
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:03:00 - [206] Originally by: Murina They're fine under 12km /posts a graph that shows blasters doing 50% more gun DPS under 10km before resistances before drones /Leans back
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:09:00 - [207] Originally by: 7shining7one7 and it's not just 2.5km.. it's 15km falloff and it has a 15km web fitted.. and 1514 dps ffs!!!! and if you wanna opt for 27k range (optimal + falloff) with null then you got 1236 dps.. Interest way of putting things when you accuse me of fudging facts, lol you include a domi web and then use the max dmg figures in the same breath as fall off ranges..... You preached earlier about resists and tracking, range ect ect and yet you post a domi web fitted sissi fit and try to match max alpha dmg with fall off ranges... your a joke and a poor excuse for a manipulator. At least gourm kept his figures realistic and measured even if he did stretch out his graphs to make the low range gaps seem larger and cut off the max range of lasers...i suggest you try apprenticing to him he aint great but he is heads and shoulders above you. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:13:00 - [208] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Murina They're fine under 12km /posts a graph that shows lasers being effective even against high transversal, with drones types shown on the bottom of the graph /Leans back and tries hard to troll... ... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:14:00 - [209] NOTE: The dps in this fit is a result of using 5 hardwirings.. a 5% rof, a 5% pg, a 5% cap, a -5% turret cap usage, and a 5% large hybrid dmg. So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught] Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier Domination 100MN MicroWarpdrive Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Hybrid Burst Aerator II Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5 EM: 69.3%, THERM: 60.3%, KIN: 60.3%, EXPLO: 45% ehp 90k. 20k armor dps: 1337 with t1 antimatter (yep i'm not kidding bout the 1337) dps: 1514 with caldari navy antimatter.. 5143k volley damage cap for 3 minutes with everything on. mwd speed 891ms. cap stable with everything on (except mwd), at 57%
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:16:00 - [210] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 and it's not just 2.5km.. it's 15km falloff and it has a 15km web fitted.. and 1514 dps ffs!!!! and if you wanna opt for 27k range (optimal + falloff) with null then you got 1236 dps.. Interest way of putting things when you accuse me of fudging facts, lol you include a domi web and then use the max dmg figures in the same breath as fall off ranges..... You preached earlier about resists and tracking, range ect ect and yet you post a domi web fitted sissi fit and try to match max alpha dmg with fall off ranges... your a joke and a poor excuse for a manipulator. At least gourm kept his figures realistic and measured even if he did stretch out his graphs to make the low range gaps seem larger and cut off the max range of lasers...i suggest you try apprenticing to him he aint great but he is heads and shoulders above you. even at allmost max falloff it will still do more dps than an abaddon.. and even more inflicted dmg due to the damage types... AND it can move at 981ms.. a t1 amarr bs would be wise to warp out if it encountered this and wasn't pointed.. that's also what you don't get.. that's why amarr doesn't have to reload.. cause of the cap issues, cause of the half assed dps if you plan to survive and because of the em/therm which means less inflicted damage..

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:17:00 - [211] Originally by: 7shining7one7 NOTE: The dps in this fit is a result of using 5 hardwirings.. a 5% rof, a 5% pg, a 5% cap, a -5% turret cap usage, and a 5% large hybrid dmg. So.. without further ado.. i present to you: A worthless sissi BF area fit.... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:25:00 - [212] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 15:25:55 Originally by: 7shining7one7 even at allmost max falloff it will still do more dps than an abaddon.. especially on the amarr ships who has a tendency to just sit there since they can't fit mwd's properly.. If a amarr pilot chooses to sit still and get pwned that is their choice, and just as a matter of interest how much do all those +5 and domi web stuff cost ( yea a 100 isk each on sissi lol) compared to a standard T2 amaar BS?. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and even more inflicted dmg due to the damage types... SO ITS GREAT AT HITTING UNFITTED SHIPS wow... Originally by: 7shining7one7 a t1 amarr bs would be wise to warp out if it encountered this A domi web fitted, +5 implanted T2 fitted BS...how about if the fight started at 40-50km?.... Originally by: 7shining7one7 and wasn't pointed.. Yea i noticed it did not have a point fitted, still as its a sissi 1 v 1 fit it does not really need one i suppose.. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:41:00 - [213] i used that fit to illustrate what's possible with a hype.. and it clearly is corroborating evidence to testify to how futile your whole amarr is uber rant is.. the hardwirings cost about 100m a pop.. you only really need 1 rig, the pg 5% to get the fit.. i just like the other ones in general for other fits.. but for this particular fit only need 1 of em. and with only that hardwiring the dps goes from 1514 to 1385 with 4898k volley damage.. so that's a hype + a 100m implant.. npc faction mwd, web and heatsinks (around hmm 150m) and some t2 neuts, a hybrid t2 rig (around 50m for that one and 40m for a couple t1 trimarks) and that'll be around hmm.. 480m.. not too shabby for 1385 kin/therm dps..
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:49:00 - [214] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 16:04:40 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 15:25:55 Originally by: 7shining7one7 even at allmost max falloff it will still do more dps than an abaddon.. especially on the amarr ships who has a tendency to just sit there since they can't fit mwd's properly.. If a amarr pilot chooses to sit still and get pwned that is their choice, and just as a matter of interest how much do all those +5 and domi web stuff cost ( yea a 100 isk each on sissi lol) compared to a standard T2 amaar BS?. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and even more inflicted dmg due to the damage types... SO ITS GREAT AT HITTING UNFITTED SHIPS wow... Originally by: 7shining7one7 a t1 amarr bs would be wise to warp out if it encountered this A domi web fitted, +5 implanted T2 fitted BS...how about if the fight started at 40-50km?.... unfitted ships? are you as stupid as to suggest that em/therm is harder to fit against than kin/therm for gallente ? i just demonstrated how easy it was on the myrm.. to get an omnifit that defends against both high kin (83%) and high em (87%).. and 55% explo and 67% therm.. fitting against EM/THERM is piece of cake for gallente. a point.. oh go ahead and use a midslot on an abaddon for a point then.. see how that works out for ya.. oh yeah and add an mwd too and try and outrun the hype and see how much cap you got left after that if the fight starts at 40-50km: mwd'ing at 981ms it'll be there in about a minute.. that means the abaddon has 1 minute to burn away 9k shield and atleast 10k out of the 20k armor.. (ehp 90k, resists: EM 69.5% THERM: 60.3% ) if he doesn't the hype will take the abaddon down before the hype is in structure (which it has 10k of with 60% resists). this is in other words the worst scenario for the hype vs an abaddon.. and it isn't even that bad.. solo the hype would win it if the abaddon didn't warp or had an officer fit or some such crazyness.. the best scenario? fight starts at 20km cause hype warps in on a m8 as it should, 8 secs later target is webbed with overloaded domination webifier.. 2 minutes later abaddon is dead. (1541 dps vs 600) NOW MORE IMPORTANT.. i'll concede that the way eve warfare is today, the abaddon is nice cause combat favours midrange.. but don't even attempt to make this about overpowered dps.. it has diddly to do with anything but range.. if someone gets within range of the stationary golden laser castles that amarr ships are.. those castles can crumble.. especially if it's gallentean blasterships that get near em. and since your post was about proving that amarr has overpowered weapons or dps compared to gallente.. and that has now been nailed in the coffin quite severely.. we can conclude that your real issue with amarr is that they are now favoured in combat, not cause of their dmg.. but cause of their tankage and mid range capabilities and not requiring reloads which makes them nice for prolonged midrange engagements and looting.. their damage type still sucks.. they are just allowed to sit and burn ppl a whole lot more than was viable in the past.. adapt your combat style.. get a claymore in gang (watch the alliance tournament) and mwd towards them or warp in late on a tacklemate as he approaches the targets so you don't have to start 50km out with a blaster fit.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:11:00 - [215] Originally by: 7shining7one7 if the fight starts at 40-50km: mwd'ing at 981ms it'll be there in about a minute.. Much longer than that actually as the amarr bs can do near 700ms so you travel at 300ms towards it hitting for 0 while it is tearing into your tank. BTW i did a sissi abaddon fit and while i am not as practiced at dream style bllsht fits and scenarios that you think mean a damn i did get the abaddon up to 1235 dps with a 15km MAX DPS optimal and 10km fall off although i may have missed a implant or two. BUT the fact is your scenarios and fits are utterly unrealistic on TQ for gang pvp, even morondongs biased cut off stretched out graphs are more realistic than the crap you just posted compared to the reality of eve tq pvp. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:25:00 - [216] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 16:33:14 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 if the fight starts at 40-50km: mwd'ing at 981ms it'll be there in about a minute.. Much longer than that actually as the amarr bs can do near 700ms so you travel at 300ms towards it hitting for 0 while it is tearing into your tank. BTW i did a sissi abaddon fit and while i am not as practiced at dream style bllsht fits and scenarios that you think mean a damn i did get the abaddon up to 1235 dps with a 15km MAX DPS optimal and 10km fall off although i may have missed a implant or two. BUT the fact is your scenarios and fits are utterly unrealistic on TQ for gang pvp, even morondongs biased cut off stretched out graphs are more realistic than the crap you just posted compared to the reality of eve tq pvp. are you even attempting to make an iota of sense.. how the f is an abaddon gonna travel faster than an mwd'ing hype going 981ms without the abaddon being at 50% cap before it can say hello presidente.. also how do you propose to fit point tracking cap and mwd in the 4 mid slots on an abaddon.. or are you gonna use the lows for cpr's (that's even worse, there goes your tanking and/or less dmg mods) and even then your cap will still have issues.. and what for rigs.. you gotta plug out those shiny dmg rigs cause you need cap. cap cap cap or buffer tank buffer tank buffer tank is the main rule with an abaddon.. damage is tertiary.. wtb abaddon fit with 1200 dps that has no cap issues and can mwd away from a hyperion whilst firing without running out of cap before you can say bobs your uncle.. edit: i think you forgot about null: 11km optimal 16km falloff: 1236 dps.. (27km total range vs 28km multifreq megapulse range) and that's where the ships are getting close to meeting, the ships are very close at this point.. and it is just 15 secs before the hype gets there to open up a can of antimatter whopass.. and from 27km and forward.. gallente is superior due to damage type.. also.. falloff = switch crystals for amarr cause amarr sucks in falloff.. gallente are great in falloff, and minny are all about falloff.. and i think you fail quite severely if you think that abaddon pilots using megapulse doesn't use scorch or standard predominately.. cause they sure as f ain't gonna mwd to the target unless they plan to not do a whole lot of dps (cause of the cap fitting gymnastics).. you might want to factor actual crystals used into your dmg calculations aswell..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:32:00 - [217] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 if the fight starts at 40-50km: mwd'ing at 981ms it'll be there in about a minute.. Much longer than that actually as the amarr bs can do near 700ms so you travel at 300ms towards it hitting for 0 while it is tearing into your tank. BTW i did a sissi abaddon fit and while i am not as practiced at dream style bllsht fits and scenarios that you think mean a damn i did get the abaddon up to 1235 dps with a 15km MAX DPS optimal and 10km fall off although i may have missed a implant or two. BUT the fact is your scenarios and fits are utterly unrealistic on TQ for gang pvp, even morondongs biased cut off stretched out graphs are more realistic than the crap you just posted compared to the reality of eve tq pvp. are you even attempting to make an iota of sense.. how the f is an abaddon gonna travel faster than an mwd'ing hype going 981ms Did i say faster???, im sure i said slower (700ms vs 981 = slower nub) but 981-700 = 281 ms, and it takes a lot longer to travel 30-40km at a relative speed of 281ms than a minute pal. Originally by: 7shining7one7 also how do you propose to fit point, tracking, cap, and mwd in the 4 mid slots on an abaddon.. Why fit tracking you didn't?, why fit point when you didn't?, cap and mwd and web fit though... Originally by: 7shining7one7 wtb abaddon fit with 1200 dps that has no cap issues and can mwd away from a hyperion whilst firing without running out of cap before you can say bobs your uncle.. Faction mods work wonders and considering that you introduced them i thought id use them. Serves you right for introducing silly sissi dream fits pal. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:36:00 - [218] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 16:39:58 Originally by: Murina Faction mods work wonders and considering that you introduced them i thought id use them. Serves you right for introducing silly sissi dream fits pal. show me the fit.. the hype fit i showed you is around 500m with the ship and everything including hardwiring. showing that 1348 dps on a hype is hardly a sissi dream.. and if you got 200 more mill to spare, you can turn up the heat to 1514 dps. then we'll go through price, cap stability and the other weaknesses in it.. how will it do when it's firing guns and mwd'ing, what's its ehp and resists, and what's its dps with scorch and standard.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:39:00 - [219] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 16:40:26 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Faction mods work wonders and considering that you introduced them i thought id use them. Serves you right for introducing silly sissi dream fits pal. show me the fit.. the hype fit i showed you is around 500m with the ship and everything including hardwiring. showing that 1348 dps on a hype is hardly a sissi dream.. and if you got 200 more mill to spare, you can turn up the heat to 1514 dps. then we'll go through price, cap stability and the other weaknesses in it.. i wonder how it feels if it gets neuted.. How about instead of being negative you fit a baddon as uberly as you wanted the hype to be?, or do you prefer nit picking?. Oh and the fit is not so different than the hypes btw, i just moved stuff around a little and made a non faction addition or two. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:41:00 - [220] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 16:42:30 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Faction mods work wonders and considering that you introduced them i thought id use them. Serves you right for introducing silly sissi dream fits pal. show me the fit.. the hype fit i showed you is around 500m with the ship and everything including hardwiring. showing that 1348 dps on a hype is hardly a sissi dream.. and if you got 200 more mill to spare, you can turn up the heat to 1514 dps. then we'll go through price, cap stability and the other weaknesses in it.. i wonder how it feels if it gets neuted.. How about instead of being negative you fit a baddon as uberly as you wanted the hype to be?, or do you prefer nit picking?. you can't fit a hype as you would fit a abaddon.. it's two different combat styles.. that's what i'm trying to point out.. the gallente one is far more lethal than the amarrian one, but since the amarrian one is preferred combat style these days.. (prolongued stationary mid range remote repping/tanking engagements with less individual dps) we see you whining that they somehow have more dps.. when that is not at all the case.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 16:50:00 - [221] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 17:05:36 Making up excuses already?, are you gonna get on with it or not?. Cap stable for 3 mins 47 secs with everything running btw (3 mins 2 secs with a t2 point fitted) although i did not use the cap implants, cos my eft skills are not as practiced as yours at silly dream fits as i tend towards the reality of tq. HEH found the implant 4 min 46 sec cap stable with every thing running. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:04:00 - [222] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 16:58:06 Making up excuses already?, are you gonna get on with it or not?. Cap stable for 3 mins 47 secs with everything running btw (3 mins 2 secs with a t2 point fitted) although i did not use the cap implants, cos my eft skills are not as practiced as yours at silly dream fits as i tend towards the reality of tq. post your fit?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:06:00 - [223] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 17:06:52 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Making up excuses already?, are you gonna get on with it or not?. Cap stable for 3 mins 47 secs with everything running btw (3 mins 2 secs with a t2 point fitted) although i did not use the cap implants, cos my eft skills are not as practiced as yours at silly dream fits as i tend towards the reality of tq. post your fit? HEH found the implant 4 min 46 sec cap with every thing running. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:16:00 - [224] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 17:25:58 [Abaddon, golden castle] Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Damage Control II Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Amarr Navy Large Armor Repairer Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Capacitor Control Circuit II Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 ehp 106k EM: 82.7% THERM: 77.5% KIN: 74% EXPLO: 72.3% dps: 836 - 45km+10 falloff. cap: 12m (the cap II rig takes it from 6m to 12m) with hardwirings: 5%rof 5%dmg 5%cap and 5%cap usage on turrets = 907 dps and stable at 37% notice how much goes to just keeping the sucker cap stable (i added a t2 cap rig which isn't cheap) whilst firing its guns.. now you get an idea about the amount of cap issues amarr has.. and you want to add mwd on it too.. and a point.. and then you'll last what.. 3 minutes.. there goes the whole idea about being a stationary golden castle melting stuff from mid range.. you'll warp in, fire your guns for 3 minutes.. warp out.. good job..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:29:00 - [225] 1192 dps, faction multi freq 15+10 959 dps, scorch 45+10 (so op its a joke) 5 mins 42 secs cap 21k armour 107k ehp (better overall resists) or 28k armour 108kehp
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:32:00 - [226] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 17:33:23 Originally by: 7shining7one7 and you want to add mwd on it too.. and a point.. and then you'll last what.. 3 minutes.. WOW is that bad then????..... Originally by: 7shining7one7 So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught].................................... cap for 3 minutes with everything on.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:35:00 - [227] Originally by: Murina 1192 dps, faction multi freq 15+10 959 dps, scorch 45+10 (so op its a joke) 5 mins 42 secs cap 21k armour 107k ehp (better overall resists) or 28k armour 108kehp post your f'ing fit.. so that i can tell you that your mobility is futile if you want to keep firing your guns and tanking the dmg, the hype will get right up in your face and it'll give you 1514 dps.. and you'll go out in a blaze of glory.. or warp out. 5 mins of cap usage on an abaddon is a f'ing joke.. you probably full plated it too didn't you, in order to be able to mwd around.. how fast are you going with that cute little mwd btw.. just post your fit, i'm looking forward to seeing it.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:35:00 - [228] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 17:33:23 Originally by: 7shining7one7 and you want to add mwd on it too.. and a point.. and then you'll last what.. 3 minutes.. WOW is that bad then????..... Originally by: 7shining7one7 So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught].................................... cap for 3 minutes with everything on. you missed the cap stable when mwd is turned off part..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:37:00 - [229] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 17:37:30 Originally by: 7shining7one7 you missed the cap stable when mwd is turned off part.. Are you a bloody gold fish...read your own posts ffs.... Originally by: 7shining7one7 So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught].................................... cap for 3 minutes with everything on. cap stable with everything on (except mwd), at 57%
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:40:00 - [230] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 17:46:40 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 17:44:03 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 17:38:04 Originally by: 7shining7one7 you missed the cap stable when mwd is turned off part.. Are you a bloody goldfish cos your memory sucks...read your own posts ffs.... Originally by: 7shining7one7 So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught].................................... cap for 3 minutes with everything on. cap stable with everything on (except mwd), at 57% yeah... it has plenty of time to get to the target and even being neuted on the way, (mwd and dcII only) and when it gets to the target, it webs it 18km out and its cap stays at 57% while it lays its 1514 (expensive) or 1398 (500m) dps can of whopass on the poor sod in the opposing ship.. hence.. cap stable.. what's your point? confused i do have a navy apoc called goldfish though, dno if that counts.. also.. goldfishies are cute and purdy. also i'm enjoying this conversation, shedding some light on the issue... and you're a good debater.. but let's both try and stay factual and with that said.. i'd really appreciate it if you posted that fit so that we can talk about it in detail.. you keep mentioning attributes of it but you refuse to show it.. in the interest of candor and a good discussion it seems only fair you should bring it to the table when i have brought 2 fits to the table and all you have shown me is a graph you take out of context and use to proclam amarr overpowered because they have longer range with pulse than gallente has with blasters.. and that's hardly a sound argument now is it.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:46:00 - [231] Originally by: 7shining7one7 5 mins of cap usage on an abaddon is a f'ing joke.. Its got more and longer lasting cap than your hype fit, so if the baddon sucks the hype sucks harder. Originally by: 7shining7one7 how fast are you going with that cute little mwd btw.. 700ms so if you think you can travel 30-40km at a difference of 200ish m/s while the abaddon lays near 1000dps on you + getting through a 15km overheated web (call it 20km) into your pitiful 4.5km optimal to do its dmg your kidding yourself.....
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:49:00 - [232] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 17:52:25 Originally by: 7shining7one7 it webs it 18km out and its cap stays at 57% while it lays its 1514 (expensive) or 1398 (500m) dps can of whopass on the poor sod in the opposing ship.. hence.. cap stable.. what's your point? confused Wrong noob the 1514 dps it at 4.5km (optimal), not in falloff and the baddon has a domi web as well so your fighting in fall off for 15 webbed km while the baddon is putting 1200 optimal 0 transversal dps on your ass. You would be lucky to get into optimal before you died pal. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:52:00 - [233] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 17:59:22 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 it webs it 18km out and its cap stays at 57% while it lays its 1514 (expensive) or 1398 (500m) dps can of whopass on the poor sod in the opposing ship.. hence.. cap stable.. what's your point? confused Wrong noob the 1514 dps it at 4.5km (optimal), not in falloff and the baddon has a domi web as well so your fighting in fall off for 15 webbed km while the baddon is putting 1200 optimal 0 transversal dps on your ass. null gives 1230 dps and has 11km optimal 16k falloff kin/therm (null is designed to fight against a webbing enemy), what's your kin/therm resists? i'm quite sure your whole mwd'ing routine whilst firing your guns is completely unrealistic with regards to the cap used.. and i doubt you're gonna chew through 90k ehp in 5 minutes on a moving target, even IF it takes that long for him to reach you considering you probably dual plated it which makes your acceleration suck.. a factor you missed.. when he's moving you're gonna hit less cause i'm guessing you don't have tracking puters on the last mid slot.. and then what.. your cap will have run out and he'll just navigate right to left making you miss a bit.. and if you keep running the hype will just warp out.. since it's the one who's chasing you and you got nothing on it.. also wtf is the point of your point on your abaddon fit.. the whole strength of the abaddon is mid range.. when is your point ever going to be feasible, i'm pretty sure the hype don't give a **** about being pointed by an abaddon.. considering the range the abaddon has to be at in order to point it.. more of a blessing than a curse for the hype pilot really.. the inconsiderate nature of putting a point a web and an mwd on an abaddon is staggering.. which now more than ever gives me a desire to see your "overpowered" abaddon fit show me them jewels..
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:53:00 - [234] Quotin' myself to make a point. Quote: geddon with megapulse II, 3x sinks, and 2x plates with EANM II needs to fit a named DCU to fit. To get an MWD on in with cap booster you need to drop a plate or not cap boost(yeah, right, when just your guns firing cap you out in a few minutes) to get the pg. Mega can comfortably fit 2x plates, MWD, electrochem injector, and T2 neutrons. With 2mfs, you're doing just slightly less turret dps than the geddon(but geddon deals full dps at 15km), and being gallente and only caring about raw damage, you are probably using ogre II just for the dps boost, but that's speculation(I heart berserkers). You have 8k more EHP, and an MWD fit. If you opt for 3x MFS you have a bit less buffer, but a whole lot more dps. Abbadon can comfortably fit as the mega, and deals even less damage(not even counting the smallish dronebay), with less cap stability, and far more ehp than the geddon. In an abbadon(which is not a great solo ship, but it can work) solo, I'd feel comfortable engaging a mega due to sheer ehp and my warrior II/vespa II/valk IIs can be annoying to your ogres. In neither situation do my lazors give me a significant advantage over your blasters. I'm doing less raw damage on far stronger resists, in fact. I can't kite you at all due to being slow as a sedated snail in molasses, so the only percieved advantage I have is that I can lay into you with scorch, then navy AM as you close before you rip my face off. The only real advantage a lazor boat has is not having to mwd all over the place during a fight. Period. Lazors are harder to fit. They take more cap. They still hit on your highest resists on armor(lol, I annihilate your shields in a mega and you care a whole lot, right? LOLEQUALIZEDRESISTS), they have the worst tracking of any close ranged weapon, and finally they do less raw dps. They generally invoke a ship bonus just so they can be used, and on lazor ships without that bonus(looking at you, abbadon), they use stupid massive amounts of cap. Downsize to ions, fit a heavy neut, and you'll surely easily overpower any abbadon in a hypothetical 1v1 situation.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:56:00 - [235] Originally by: Selia Rain Quotin' myself to make a point. Quote: geddon with megapulse II, 3x sinks, and 2x plates with EANM II needs to fit a named DCU to fit. To get an MWD on in with cap booster you need to drop a plate or not cap boost(yeah, right, when just your guns firing cap you out in a few minutes) to get the pg. Mega can comfortably fit 2x plates, MWD, electrochem injector, and T2 neutrons. With 2mfs, you're doing just slightly less turret dps than the geddon(but geddon deals full dps at 15km), and being gallente and only caring about raw damage, you are probably using ogre II just for the dps boost, but that's speculation(I heart berserkers). You have 8k more EHP, and an MWD fit. If you opt for 3x MFS you have a bit less buffer, but a whole lot more dps. Abbadon can comfortably fit as the mega, and deals even less damage(not even counting the smallish dronebay), with less cap stability, and far more ehp than the geddon. In an abbadon(which is not a great solo ship, but it can work) solo, I'd feel comfortable engaging a mega due to sheer ehp and my warrior II/vespa II/valk IIs can be annoying to your ogres. In neither situation do my lazors give me a significant advantage over your blasters. I'm doing less raw damage on far stronger resists, in fact. I can't kite you at all due to being slow as a sedated snail in molasses, so the only percieved advantage I have is that I can lay into you with scorch, then navy AM as you close before you rip my face off. The only real advantage a lazor boat has is not having to mwd all over the place during a fight. Period. Lazors are harder to fit. They take more cap. They still hit on your highest resists on armor(lol, I annihilate your shields in a mega and you care a whole lot, right? LOLEQUALIZEDRESISTS), they have the worst tracking of any close ranged weapon, and finally they do less raw dps. They generally invoke a ship bonus just so they can be used, and on lazor ships without that bonus(looking at you, abbadon), they use stupid massive amounts of cap. Downsize to ions, fit a heavy neut, and you'll surely easily overpower any abbadon in a hypothetical 1v1 situation. exactly.. he doesn't get it..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:56:00 - [236] Originally by: 7shining7one7 and i doubt you're gonna chew through 90k ehp in 5 minutes Your own silly baddon fit did near 1000dps so 5 mins = 300secs x 1000dps = 300,000dps noob, that is 3 x the amount of dmg needed. Oh and my fit is the one with the point pal not yours.... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:03:00 - [237] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:03:48 Originally by: Selia Rain Lazors are harder to fit. Thats why their ships have more pg... Originally by: Selia Rain They take more cap. That is why laser ships have more cap... Originally by: Selia Rain They still hit on your highest resists on armor WTB ship that can hit targets on the market or those unfitted in hangars cos all the ships i can lock and fire are tanked and have their resist holes filled. Originally by: Selia Rain they have the worst tracking of any close ranged weapon Insignificant considering the available target selection to all BS. Originally by: Selia Rain and finally they do less raw dps at 4.5-8ish km after that they own all as far as DPS is concerned and out range even the longest of the other races by at least 20+km (blaster by 30km). FIXED Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:04:00 - [238] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 18:05:19 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 and i doubt you're gonna chew through 90k ehp in 5 minutes Your own silly baddon fit did near 1000dps so 5 mins = 300secs x 1000dps = 300,000dps noob, that is 3 x the amount of dmg needed. Oh and my fit is the one with the point pal not yours.... what was silly about it? please clarify. i wouldn't call 907 dps 1000 dps, that's a pretty big round up.. (also that was including 3 x 100m hardwirings and a full faction fit in the lows (excluding plate and dcII) including an expensive t2 cap rig mind you) also you're basing all of this on that the hype warps in 50km away from you and that you got no tacklers holding you down.. rather than him warping in allmost on top of you. so in other words you're basing this on a 1 on 1.. and the only thing you've said is that the abaddon can run away whilst dealing dmg and wearing the hype down if the fight starts at 50km away.. also you've failed to recognize that having dual plates on that abaddon you will accelerate very slowly.. which means your eta to target calculation is askew.. i still want to see that fit.. you've proved diddly about how amarr has superior dps.. because they don't.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:05:00 - [239] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:08:32 Originally by: 7shining7one7 i wouldn't call 907 dps 1000 dps, that's a pretty big round up.. 959dps (1200dps at 15km) and that is if i do not take advantage of the insta reload and just use scorch and i only fitted one plate. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:06:00 - [240] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 18:06:36 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 .....BLAH.. Fixed. oh cmon, don't be silly.. just post that fit so we can debate this further, i find this debate with you interesting, i hope you do aswell.

Madner Kami	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:13:00 - [241] Edited by: Madner Kami on 07/02/2009 18:14:36 Edited by: Madner Kami on 07/02/2009 18:14:11 Edited by: Madner Kami on 07/02/2009 18:13:34 Originally by: Murina Your own silly baddon fit did near 1000dps so 5 mins = 300secs x 1000dps = 300,000d noob, that is 3 x the amount of dmg needed. Roughly 300k damage in five minutes on a moving target, fired from a moving platform, both at MWD speeds at 700m/s and more and BEFORE resists... Post that fit and we can surely show you where the problem in this fit is, because a ship's stats don't solely consist of damage, rof and range. There are tons of more things to take into account. You fixing on just three aspects of a ship and a fitted weapon is just beyond any reality, EFT-Warrior.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:18:00 - [242] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:21:12 Originally by: Madner Kami Roughly 300k damage in five minutes on a moving target 1000 raw dps for 5 mins = ? raw dmg vs a approaching ship with 0 transversal and 90k ehp. Originally by: Madner Kami EFT-Warrior. Nope im totally new to this silly dream fit idea, matey boy introduced me to it and i have commented several times how it bears no real resemblance to reality on TQ but he felt it necessary, i bet he regrets it now...
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:20:00 - [243] Murina, post your ubersuperdupermegaawesome setup or STFU. You sooooooooooooooooo wrong in most of the things that it's not even funny.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:23:00 - [244] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:25:06 Originally by: NightmareX Murina, post your ubersuperdupermegaawesome setup or STFU. Figure it out tard, the basic fit aint so different that silly hype sissi fit he posted. NOTE: The dps in this fit is a result of using 5 hardwirings.. a 5% rof, a 5% pg, a 5% cap, a -5% turret cap usage, and a 5% large hybrid dmg. So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught] Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier Domination 100MN MicroWarpdrive Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Hybrid Burst Aerator II Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Madner Kami	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:27:00 - [245] Edited by: Madner Kami on 07/02/2009 18:35:58 Originally by: Murina 1000 raw dps for 5 mins vs a approaching ship with 0 transversal. You are the one, complaining that he brings in EFT-theory fits and think someone is going to chase you down head-on straight forward? How silly is that? Any halfway intelligent pilot would surely engage in a non straight line and if not beeing able to keep up in time just warp out or call his tackle-wing. You're the one throwing out a limited set of figurative numbers on a sheet of paper, concentrating on these singular aspects of ships and weapons and think the world is running this way. And once again: Show that fit of yours and give us the chance to show you the weakness of what you propose. It's next to impossible to get an Abaddon tanked, fitted with an MWD and getting such a DPS at the same time with a cap-time beeing worth mentioned at all, without paying insane amounts on rigs and modules which are as hard to get as bringing a human alive into a sun's core.
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:29:00 - [246] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:25:06 Originally by: NightmareX Murina, post your ubersuperdupermegaawesome setup or STFU. Figure it out tard, the basic fit aint so different that silly hype sissi fit he posted. NOTE: The dps in this fit is a result of using 5 hardwirings.. a 5% rof, a 5% pg, a 5% cap, a -5% turret cap usage, and a 5% large hybrid dmg. So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught] Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier Domination 100MN MicroWarpdrive Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Hybrid Burst Aerator II Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I lolwut!!!!? lmfao.. dude stick to shooting npcs tbfh..
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:30:00 - [247] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 18:35:36 In the interest of remaining factual and candid allow me to repost the hype fit he's ridiculing, with a few added comments. NOTE: The dps in this fit is a result of using 5 hardwirings.. a 5% rof, a 5% pg, a 5% cap, a -5% turret cap usage, and a 5% large hybrid dmg. allthough technically you can drop everything but the pg hardwiring, and get cap stable with 1398 dps (total price including ship, little over 500m give or take), i chose to add all the hardwirings for the 1514 dps rich kid on the block fit, and also because with all 5 hardwirings and t1 antimatter the dps spells out 1337 which was just too humorous not to be taken note of. i mean wtf are the odds right.. So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught] Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier Domination 100MN MicroWarpdrive Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Hybrid Burst Aerator II Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5 EM: 69.3%, THERM: 60.3%, KIN: 60.3%, EXPLO: 45% ehp 90k. 20k armor dps: 1337 with t1 antimatter (yep i'm not kidding bout the 1337) dps: 1514 with caldari navy antimatter.. 5143k volley damage cap for 3 minutes with everything on. mwd speed 891ms. cap stable with everything on (except mwd), at 57% now.. it's a pure gank fit.. and it might be a tad ballsy in some ways but it's not all that expensive and more importantly it shows the amount of dps the hyperion can dish out.. i showed the fit to impress upon on muria just how much dps gallente ships are capable of doing to illustrate how amarr does not have overpowered dps and that neither pulse nor tachyons are overpowered due to the implications of fitting, cap and the other factors discussed in the last 3 pages.. now please post your fit muria.. the abaddon fit.. and "figure it out tard" is hardly a conducive response for a healthy debate.. you've been stone walling us for 2 pages.. now give it or get out.. quite frankly..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:32:00 - [248] Originally by: Madner Kami Originally by: Murina 1000 raw dps for 5 mins vs a approaching ship with 0 transversal. You are the one, complaining that he brings in EFT-theory fits and think someone is going to chase you down head-on straight forward? How silly is that? Any halfway itnelligent pilot would surely engage in a non straight line and if not beeing able to keep up in time just warp out or call his tackle-wing. You're the throwing out a limited set of figurative numbers on a sheet of paper, concentrating on these singular aspects of ships and thinking the world is running this way. Ok pal if you think a BS at say 30+km can generate enough transveral AND approach to negate the tracking of pulse go ahead and prove it. Oh and the scenario was not my idea btw and i have commented on the fact several times, his hype fit did not even have a frigin point fitted ffs.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:46:00 - [249] Edited by: Selia Rain on 07/02/2009 18:48:29 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:03:48 Originally by: Selia Rain Lazors are harder to fit. Thats why their ships have more pg... True to a certain extent. This is a balance issue, to keep the consecrated lazors primarily on lazor ships, I'd speculate. Originally by: Murina Originally by: Selia Rain They take more cap. That is why laser ships have more cap... Not really. Geddon gets +20.4cap/s max skills, domi has 19.2, fairly insignificant. Slightly higher base cap by a bit, sure. Mega vs Apoc apoc clearly wins, but it got free cap in the boost and has always been the king of cap. Apoc is a sub par closerange ship and only shines past 45km. +27.1, +20.3, 9375 vs 7031, plus a lazor cap use bonus on top. Abbadon has less cap(by far, 7969 vs 9000) but slightly more cap/s than the hype +21.3 over +20. I don't consider 1cap/s to be a significant amount, even ignoring the higher cap use of lazors. Originally by: Murina Originally by: Selia Rain They still hit on your highest resists on armor WTB ship that can hit targets on the market or those unfitted in hangars cos all the ships i can lock and fire are tanked and have their resist holes filled. On passive gank battleships(full ehp setups aside), you only have a few slots to dedicate to resists(you need plates, dmg mods, a DCU), thus EANMs. Active tanked battleships generally run either the same 2x EANM+DCU setup, or three hardeners for their weakest res(leaving an EM hole). Most HACs fill their res hole and then EANM up if they have the slots. Same with commands. EANMs are just so nice with compensation skills it's not funny. The only ships that will be leaving a giant EM hole are potentially the tri hardener active tanked hype/domi and similar fits, capitals with tri hardners+DCU, frigates/cruisers that don't have more than a couple slots to tank. Even shield tanks typically harden EM, it's their major resist hole, so it's common sense. Originally by: Murina Originally by: Selia Rain they have the worst tracking of any close ranged weapon Insignificant considering the available target selection to all BS. Tracking is fairly important under 10km, which is why your mega has a tracking bonus. Originally by: Murina Originally by: Selia Rain and finally they do less raw dps at 4.5-8ish km after that they own all as far as DPS is concerned and out range even the longest of the other races by at least 20+km (blaster by 30km). FIXED Lazors do less raw dps at optimal compared to blasters at optimal. So you have to MWD 20km to close with me, that does what, take some of your shields away? Once I hit that 75% EM resist on armor I'm sure I'll still be outdpsing you. Also FYI, a triple ambited mael can hit at 6+46x2 or 98km. Granted, damage is reduced to 50% at optimal+falloff, but it can hit there. Vargur can hir further with autos, and T2 ambits are relatively cheapish. But we're not talking about T2 ships or autocannon. Rokh with 3x optimal rigs gets 24+16, and 681 turret dps, roughly the same as a geddon with scorch(still less range, but it can still deliver full dps to scram range). The only point I see you making is that lazors can deal good dps out to 45km(you keep saying 50km for some reason though, optimal is 45km on anything but apoc with sharpshooter 5) with scorch. You're comparing the best optimal moderate dps closerange weapon to the worst optimal best dps weapon and whining that you're being outdamaged past 10km, which is true. I for one, fail to see the imbalance. If they dropped megapulse II optimal to 20km from 24, you'd get a 12.5km optimal with MF, and a 37.5km optimal with scorch. Even if they cut my base optimal to 15km, I'd STILL be outdamaging you past 10km because my optimal with scorch would be 28.125(15basex1.25sharpshooterx1.5scorch). Point being, BLASTERS ON A MEGA AREN'T MEANT TO PWN AT ALL RANGES. You already own 0-10km.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:47:00 - [250] Originally by: 7shining7one7 now please post your fit muria.. the abaddon fit.. and "figure it out tard" is hardly a conducive response for a healthy debate.. It seemed a appropriate response to this Originally by: NightmareX Murina, post your ubersuperdupermegaawesome setup or STFU. Figure it our dude, use the right top implants and modules to get your dmg right then fit a plate and a couple of amarr eanms + dcu2 (or 2 plates and 1 eanm + dcu) and go from their. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.

7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:48:00 - [251] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 18:51:46 Originally by: Murina Originally by: Madner Kami Originally by: Murina 1000 raw dps for 5 mins vs a approaching ship with 0 transversal. You are the one, complaining that he brings in EFT-theory fits and think someone is going to chase you down head-on straight forward? How silly is that? Any halfway itnelligent pilot would surely engage in a non straight line and if not beeing able to keep up in time just warp out or call his tackle-wing. You're the throwing out a limited set of figurative numbers on a sheet of paper, concentrating on these singular aspects of ships and thinking the world is running this way. Ok pal if you think a BS at say 30+km can generate enough transveral AND approach to negate the tracking of pulse go ahead and prove it. Oh and the scenario was not my idea btw and i have commented on the fact several times, his hype fit did not even have a frigin point fitted ffs. and from what i can gather your "most excellent abaddon" fit has.. two plates (well that's allright i guess) but.. wait for it.. .. mwd.. web.. scram.. and then a full rack of pulses.. and apparently it can run everything for 5 minutes.. what good is the web when you can only activate it on the hype when the hype is within null range (1236 dps), what good is the scram when you can only activate it within similar range.. what good is the mwd when you have two plates and accellerate as slow as a fully loaded truck.. and what good is your "1000 dps" when you are facing a moving target that changes direction slightly making you miss../reduces your dmg.. and what have you said by that other than if the battle starts at 50km, an abaddon can run like the ****ens from the hype and hope that the hype stays on the field and doesn't warp off.. the dps showed abaddon was inferior (it had to run, in fact that was your first instinctual reaction to the fit.. quite ironic when looking at the long rant you have presented about socalled overpowered amarr dps in this thread) and your abaddon fit is highly questionable as for its usage with regards to a plethora of things we can address when you finally decide to post the fit.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:50:00 - [252] Also note, even if lazor optimal was cut to 10km base(from 24), scorch would still grant a 18.75km optimal. OHNOEZ, A ZONE WHERE I OUTDAMAGE A MEGA!
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:52:00 - [253] Originally by: Selia Rain Also note, even if lazor optimal was cut to 10km base(from 24), scorch would still grant a 18.75km optimal. OHNOEZ, A ZONE WHERE I OUTDAMAGE A MEGA! something must be done.. this is terrible!
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:53:00 - [254] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 18:56:56 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:25:06 Originally by: NightmareX Murina, post your ubersuperdupermegaawesome setup or STFU. Figure it out tard, the basic fit aint so different that silly hype sissi fit he posted. NOTE: The dps in this fit is a result of using 5 hardwirings.. a 5% rof, a 5% pg, a 5% cap, a -5% turret cap usage, and a 5% large hybrid dmg. So.. without further ado.. i present to you: [Hyperion, Onslaught] Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier Domination 100MN MicroWarpdrive Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Hybrid Burst Aerator II Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Stop calling peoples for idiots or tards. If you don't know it, i was asking for the Abaddon fit, not the Hyperion fit. Wake up maybe?. And stop quoting 2 times on something i have said. You quoted me 2 times on this: Murina, post your ubersuperdupermegaawesome setup or STFU. You have also quoted me 2 times on something another earlier in this topic. And also, that Hyperion with that fit will horribly die to my Tempest if i get some few jam cycles on you. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:59:00 - [255] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 19:02:28 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 18:54:47 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 18:25:06 Originally by: NightmareX Murina, post your ubersuperdupermegaawesome setup or STFU. Figure it out tard, the basic fit aint so different that silly hype sissi fit he posted. Stop calling peoples for idiots or tards. If you don't know it, i was asking for the Abaddon fit, not the Hyperion fit. Wake up maybe?. And stop quoting 2 times on something i have said. And also, that Hyperion with that fit will horribly die to my Tempest if i get some few jam cycles on you. i made the fit to combat an amarr bs and to show how much dmg potential the hype has. because muria was complaining how gallente is supposedly inferior to the mighty laser dps of the amarrian fleet. it's a balls to the wall gank fit and it is obviously not feasible vs a pest that gets jam cycles in.. but it does show the point that amarr dps is definately not overpowered.. which is what muria was arguing.. and ironically his counter to it was a abaddon fit based solely on running like the **ens for 5 minutes till the cap is drained, whilst dishing out significantly less dps (eventhough he tried to squeeze as much dps juice out of the abbaddon as was at all possible pretty much) whilst ignoring all other factors.. (he fitted mwd web and scram in the mids of an abaddon fgs.. if that isn't desperation i don't know what is.) and i second that.. muria, quite being a party **er and post YOUR abaddon fit
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:02:00 - [256] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:05:49 Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:02:24 Originally by: 7shining7one7 two plates (well that's allright i guess) I prefer the 1 plate and 2 eanm fit tbh but you can do either. Originally by: 7shining7one7 what good is the web when you can only activate it on the hype when the hype is within null range (1236 dps) Here is your problem, your looking for a ultimate 1 v 1 fit to beat the abaddon, when nobody is arguing that if you land and lock it at 5km your proly ganna win. The issue is the fact that the ability to do that is frigging useless unless you setup that scenario on sissi in a BF area. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and what have you said by that other than if the battle starts at 50km, an abaddon can run like the ***ens from the hype and hope that the hype stays on the field and doesn't warp off.. EXACTLY...ITS UTTER UNREALISTIC SISSI FITTED BLLSHIT. JUST LIKE YOUR MEGA FIT EXPECTING SOME OTHER SHIP TO BLOODY STICK AROUND AND NOT WARP NO MATTER THE RANGE COS IT AINT GOT A POINT FITTED.* Originally by: 7shining7one7 and your abaddon fit is highly questionable as for its usage with regards to a plethora of things we can address when you finally decide to post the fit. You do NOT bother to fit a point and your so called uber optimal is from around 2km-4.5km and you wanna compare uses for our setups???????.....
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:04:00 - [257] Originally by: NightmareX If you don't know it, i was asking for the Abaddon fit, not the Hyperion fit. Wake up maybe?. How about you read what i said correctly and whos fit i was posting. Originally by: NightmareX And also, that Hyperion with that fit will horribly die to my Tempest if i get some few jam cycles on you. Tell that to 7shining7one7 its his fit not mine.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:07:00 - [258] you're being such a twit right now.. you don't fit a mwd web and scram on an abaddon... because it only has 4 mid slots and massive cap issues due to lack of capacitor ship bonus.. you get someone else to scram.. i could fit a scram on the hype.. because the hype has 5 mid slots.. the 57% cap stability is more useful if it is neuted so i opted for that when i rushed the fit together to prove the point of the dps.. if i fitted a point on the hype i'd still have 37% cap stability.. how you like them apples? i could also go dual web instead.. we'll see how far you would go then.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:12:00 - [259] Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX If you don't know it, i was asking for the Abaddon fit, not the Hyperion fit. Wake up maybe?. How about you read what i said correctly and whos fit i was posting. Originally by: NightmareX And also, that Hyperion with that fit will horribly die to my Tempest if i get some few jam cycles on you. Tell that to 7shining7one7 its his fit not mine. I should read what you said correctly?, you said nothing correctly because you didn't answer my question. And why did you post his Hyperion setup when i asked after your Abaddon setup?.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:12:00 - [260] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:12:42 Originally by: 7shining7one7 you're being such a twit right now.. you don't fit a mwd web and scram on an abaddon... because it only has 4 mid slots and massive cap issues due to lack of capacitor ship bonus.. you get someone else to scram.. i could fit a scram on the hype.. because the hype has 5 mid slots.. the 57% cap stability is more useful if it is neuted so i opted for that when i rushed the fit together to prove the point of the dps.. if i fitted a point on the hype i'd still have 37% cap stability.. how you like them apples? i could also go dual web instead.. we'll see how far you would go then. Here is the thing, if i was fitting to beat another BS and i had a hype to fit to do it i would not passive tank it id twin rep and high resistant tank it with a cap booster and 800s cos that is where its bonuses are.

7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:14:00 - [261] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 19:16:25 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 you're being such a twit right now.. you don't fit a mwd web and scram on an abaddon... because it only has 4 mid slots and massive cap issues due to lack of capacitor ship bonus.. you get someone else to scram.. i could fit a scram on the hype.. because the hype has 5 mid slots.. the 57% cap stability is more useful if it is neuted so i opted for that when i rushed the fit together to prove the point of the dps.. if i fitted a point on the hype i'd still have 37% cap stability.. how you like them apples? i could also go dual web instead.. we'll see how far you would go then. Here is the thing, if i was fitting to beat another BS and i had a hype to fit to do it i would not passive tank it id twin rep and high resistant tank it with a cap booster and 800s. yes.. but you're missing the point of the fit.. i was illustrating the immense dps that is possible with a hype.. and your attempt to do the same with an abaddon didn't even come close to the hype.. thus the point that amarr dps is not overpowered vs gallente is quite obvious. indeed if you were looking for a rock solid battle hardened hype fit, you'd regularly use cap boosters, but that was not the point of the fit. so stop pretending that it was and ridiculing it for pretending to be something it never proclaimed to be. and post your f'ing fit.. it's unbelievable how adamant you are being about dodging it.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:18:00 - [262] A hype with dual LAR, 2x EM and a therm hard with a DCU should beat passive abbadon everytime, just by being able to soak up the dps easily. However, that's a horrible "sissy" sisi 1v1 fit, and would never fly on TQ. But I wish you'd adress my post(s) above, even with over a 50% optimal nerf lazors would still outdamage blasters at certain ranges(also would put megapulse II at the nearly the same range as heavy pulse II, actually a bit less). Lazors work as designed. They do elss dps(far less after resists), but have greater range flexibility. Lazor ships do not have significantly more cap regen(apoc aside, it's not a closerange ship anyhow) to run their heavy capacitor draining weapons. My mids on my TQ abbadon are MWD, cap boost T2, 2x ECCM and rarely change(though I could fit web/scram, not being jammed half the time is better IMO).
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:20:00 - [263] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:27:03 Originally by: 7shining7one7 yes.. but you're missing the point of the fit.. i was illustrating the immense dps that is possible with a hype.. and your attempt to do the same with an abaddon didn't even come close to the hype.. thus the point that amarr dps is not overpowered vs gallente is quite obvious. Your post was pointless and unrealistic for TQ. Do you wear blinkers?..is really having minor amount of extra dps from 2km-4.5km summat you consider a immense thing when the baddon has 1200 from 2km upto 15km and nearly 1000 from 15 out to 45km?. That is around 20% less dps for around 300% less range with faction T1 (if i let the hype and baddon hit at 0km witch they cannot). And null is in fall off (11km optimal on your hype fit with null) before you even need to swap to bloody scorch (15km optimal t1 faction crystals). Do not talk about "useful fits" in the same post you put a fit like that on the table.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:27:00 - [264] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:21:06 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Your post was pointless and unrealistic for TQ. yes.. but you're missing the point of the fit.. i was illustrating the immense dps that is possible with a hype.. and your attempt to do the same with an abaddon didn't even come close to the hype.. thus the point that amarr dps is not overpowered vs gallente is quite obvious. Do you wear blinkers?..is really having minor amount of dps from 2km-4.5km summat you consider a immense thing when the baddon has 1200 from 2km upto 15km and nearly 1000 from 15 out to 45km?. That is 20% less dps for 300% less range with faction T1 (if i let the hype and baddon hit at 0km witch they cannot). indeed if you were looking for a rock solid battle hardened hype fit, you'd regularly use cap boosters, but that was not the point of the fit. so stop pretending that it was. ignoring the lack of proper quoting.. the 4.5km is optimal, you are disregarding how well gallente work in falloff when the target is more or less stationary.. you are also disregarding null which has 11km optimal and 16km falloff and 1236 dps with that fit. you are also ignoring the actual dmg inflicted and only looking at raw dps.. em/therm is allways subpar to kin/therm when it comes to actual dmg inflicted.. also there is no such thing as faction t1.. it is either faction or it is t1, t2 has no faction charges, it is simply called t2 crystals (scorch/conflag) in the case of pulse and (aurora/gleam) in the case of beams.. in other words, you are blatantly misrepresenting things in order to "prove" that amarr has "overpowered dps".. and even with all that misrepresentation of calculations.. labelling the results as if all factors in the proper equation were considered.. the hype still has more dps on paper than the abaddon.. even when disregarding all factors.. so the argument is null and void.. we can however debate the range of pulses.. but the pulse range is there due to lack of proper dronage on amarr ships.. and the cap and fitting issues that amarr has more than balances out that differential.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:30:00 - [265] Originally by: 7shining7one7 ignoring the lack of proper quoting.. the 4.5km is optimal, you are disregarding how well gallente work in falloff when the target is more or less stationary.. you are also disregarding null which has 11km optimal and 16km falloff and 1236 dps with that fit. No i did not i edited to include it, and 1236 is upto 11km that we are in fall off, stop playing with words and numbers.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:33:00 - [266] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 19:36:19 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 ignoring the lack of proper quoting.. the 4.5km is optimal, you are disregarding how well gallente work in falloff when the target is more or less stationary.. you are also disregarding null which has 11km optimal and 16km falloff and 1236 dps with that fit. No i did not i edited to include it, and 1236 is upto 11km that we are in fall off, stop playing with words and numbers. both blasters and rails work quite well in falloff when the target is more or less stationary.. amarr however are absolutely ****ty in falloff.. which is why they have instant crystal change in order for them to constantly find their optimal so they don't miss completely or do absolutely horribly low damage.. minny work allmost completely in falloff.. and caldari have.. less to worry about in that category. so let's just be clear about that shall we.. a hype in falloff does not hit diddly squat.. it actually hits quite well if the target is webbed and semi stationary.. now that we got that straight.. stop dodging and post that fit so that we have a little more than insinuations and proclamations to work with.. throw us a frigging bone fgs..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:37:00 - [267] Originally by: 7shining7one7 also the abaddon fit you are using is apparently alternating between 1000 and 1200 dps relative to when you reply.. which i find rather disconcerting.. Its called reloading (a thing amarr can do instantly) and operating in optimal T1 MF = 0-15KM OPTIMAL @1200 DPS. Scorch = 0- 45km OPTIMAL @ 1000DPS. You reload from MF to scorch (instantly if your amarr) at 14ish km if he is moving away or at 15 from scorch to MF if he is moving closer, and thus you are always hitting in your ammo's optimal and hitting hard.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:39:00 - [268] Originally by: 7shining7one7 both blasters and rails work quite well in falloff when the target is more or less stationary.. Would you care to explain that... Originally by: 7shining7one7 amarr however are absolutely ****ty in falloff.. And that with reason why for both pls..
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:40:00 - [269] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 19:42:43 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 also the abaddon fit you are using is apparently alternating between 1000 and 1200 dps relative to when you reply.. which i find rather disconcerting.. Its called reloading (a thing amarr can do instantly) and operating in optimal T1 MF = 0-15KM OPTIMAL @1200 DPS. Scorch = 0- 45km OPTIMAL @ 1000DPS. You reload from MF to scorch (instantly if your amarr) at 14ish km if he is moving away or at 15 from scorch to MF if he is moving closer, and thus you are always hitting in your ammo's optimal and hitting hard. oh i see.. so what are you going to do between 35 and 15 km..? hope that you continue to inflict 1000 dps somehow? edit: dude haven't you flown amarr or gallente? i thought you had but now i'm not sure.. amarr sucks in falloff.. and gallente are decent in falloff.. amarr also suck when you get too far below optimal.. but not as much as when you are in falloff.. in other words you will not be doing 1000dps all the way from 45km down to 15km.. i assumed you allready knew that?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:42:00 - [270] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:44:52 Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:44:00 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 also the abaddon fit you are using is apparently alternating between 1000 and 1200 dps relative to when you reply.. which i find rather disconcerting.. Its called reloading (a thing amarr can do instantly) and operating in optimal T1 MF = 0-15KM OPTIMAL @1200 DPS. Scorch = 0- 45km OPTIMAL @ 1000DPS. You reload from MF to scorch (instantly if your amarr) at 14ish km if he is moving away or at 15 from scorch to MF if he is moving closer, and thus you are always hitting in your ammo's optimal and hitting hard. oh i see.. so what are you going to do between 35 and 15 km..? hope that you continue to inflict 1000 dps somehow? Range makes tracking rather easy bud and its not like a approaching BS is a nimble ballerina dancing around as it approaches,.... But hey that is if i use scorch and do not just swap (instantly) to ranged faction with no penalties as it approaches....

7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:46:00 - [271] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 19:49:14 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 also the abaddon fit you are using is apparently alternating between 1000 and 1200 dps relative to when you reply.. which i find rather disconcerting.. Its called reloading (a thing amarr can do instantly) and operating in optimal T1 MF = 0-15KM OPTIMAL @1200 DPS. Scorch = 0- 45km OPTIMAL @ 1000DPS. You reload from MF to scorch (instantly if your amarr) at 14ish km if he is moving away or at 15 from scorch to MF if he is moving closer, and thus you are always hitting in your ammo's optimal and hitting hard. oh i see.. so what are you going to do between 35 and 15 km..? hope that you continue to inflict 1000 dps somehow? Range makes tracking rather easy bud and its not like a approaching BS is a nimble ballerina dancing around as it approaches,.... actually low range makes tracking a whole lot harder, since the turret has to turn more.. especially around 20-30km with fast moving targets.. and increasing from there relative to the speed.. also are you aware that charges affect tracking? optimal isn't the only attribute they affect you know.. targets far away are less of an issue with regards to tracking, which is why long range turrets have worse tracking than short range turrets.. i'm amazed that you are not aware of this.. well a bs might not be a nimble ballerina but if it's going 981ms it's not exactly standing still either..
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:49:00 - [272] Edited by: Selia Rain on 07/02/2009 19:49:45 I feel rather ignored in that when I countered every point, my post was just breezed by as if it didn't exist, but I'm just going to summarize the whole argument(again). Blasters are superior to lazors in every way sans range, and even if you nerfed the optimal of lazors by over 50%, that wouldn't change(still about 20km optimal/scorch, which is apparently unacceptible to you). Blasters are king of closerange dps. Lazors are king of midrange dps. Blasters aren't supposed to compete with lazors past 10km. EDIT: You can compete anyways in a null rokh, but apparently that's beneath you.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:51:00 - [273] Originally by: Selia Rain I feel rather ignored in that when I countered every point, my post was just breezed by as if it didn't exist, but I'm just going to summarize the whole argument(again). Blasters are superior to lazors in every way sans range, and even if you nerfed the optimal of lazors by over 50%, that wouldn't change(still about 20km optimal/scorch, which is apparently unacceptible to you). Blasters are king of closerange dps. Lazors are king of midrange dps. Blasters aren't supposed to compete with lazors past 10km. you weren't ignored i agreed with you but he don't want to hear it.. he's busy flaundering his argument away by failing at nitpicking and even in the most rudimentary understanding of turrets.. all cause he doesn't want to post that fit that he keeps on talking about..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:52:00 - [274] Originally by: 7shining7one7 actually low range makes tracking a whole lot harder, since the turret has to turn more.. Thats why the web nerf screwed over blasters big time and why they had better tracking in the first place. Oh and 15-45km aint low range pal. Originally by: 7shining7one7 well a bs might not be a nimble ballerina but if it's going 981ms it's not exactly standing still either.. It aint doing a constant 981 transversal or even close to it either if its trying to approach. Especially with that domination 20km overheated web you gave us to fit.... You really should not give ppl guns until you know where they are gonna point them... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:54:00 - [275] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:54:45 Originally by: Selia Rain I feel rather ignored in that when I countered every point, my post was just breezed by as if it didn't exist, but I'm just going to summarize the whole argument(again). Blasters are superior to lazors in every way sans range, and even if you nerfed the optimal of lazors by over 50%, that wouldn't change(still about 20km optimal/scorch, which is apparently unacceptible to you). Blasters are king of closerange dps. Lazors are king of midrange dps. Blasters aren't supposed to compete with lazors past 10km. Originally by: 7shining7one7 i keep posting imaginary fits that have no use on TQ cos reality would bite me in the butt even harder than this thread is doing... Fixed. Oh and i did not ignore you i was just busy showing up the eft/faction fit clown in his own delusion of reality.. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:54:00 - [276] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 19:57:02 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 19:55:52 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 actually low range makes tracking a whole lot harder, since the turret has to turn more.. Thats why the web nerf screwed over blasters big time and why they had better tracking in the first place. Oh and 15-45km aint low range pal. Originally by: 7shining7one7 well a bs might not be a nimble ballerina but if it's going 981ms it's not exactly standing still either.. It aint doing a constant 981 transversal or even close to it either if its trying to approach. Especially with that domination 20km overheated web you gave us to fit.... You really should not give ppl guns until you know where they are gonna point them... you've just proven that you have no f'ing clue what you're talking about.. first you say being below optimal has no effect on dps.. proclaiming that you can hit without any issues with scorch from 15 up to 45km.. with stable dps.. and act surprised when i mention that amarr has serious issues in falloff which is why they have insta crystal change to allways find their optimal (or the optimal crystal) and that crystals affect the tracking aswell as the optimal.. then you deny that gallente hits decently in fallof when the target is more or less stationary.. first you say tracking is easier when the target is closer.. then i point out that's blatantly false, along with some of your other misunderstandings of the in game dynamics.. and then you do a 180 and say that indeed tracking is harder when the target gets closer and then start whining about the web nerf.. seriously..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:56:00 - [277] Originally by: 7shining7one7 you've just proven that you have no f'ing clue what you're talking about.. first you say tracking is easier when the target is closer.. Show me where i said this muppet...pls do i need the lulz...do you hear voices as well???... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:57:00 - [278] @ Nightmare, Shining & Selia why do you bother!? What you guys fail to understand is that maralt aka murina is a nerf amarr troll.. he's trolling every single thread he can and when he can't find one he starts one.. There are hundreds of pages on a few duzin different theads on half the sections of this forum, from Shis and Modules to Game Develoment, consisting of nothing but trolling and ranting from this guy and the rest of the nerf amarr brigade (Chi Quan, Arkady Sadik, SecHaul etc), just one example as i can't be bothered to look for more.. So i ask you again, why do you bother!?
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:00:00 - [279] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 20:04:38 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:44:52 Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 19:44:00 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 also the abaddon fit you are using is apparently alternating between 1000 and 1200 dps relative to when you reply.. which i find rather disconcerting.. Its called reloading (a thing amarr can do instantly) and operating in optimal T1 MF = 0-15KM OPTIMAL @1200 DPS. Scorch = 0- 45km OPTIMAL @ 1000DPS. You reload from MF to scorch (instantly if your amarr) at 14ish km if he is moving away or at 15 from scorch to MF if he is moving closer, and thus you are always hitting in your ammo's optimal and hitting hard. oh i see.. so what are you going to do between 35 and 15 km..? hope that you continue to inflict 1000 dps somehow? Range makes tracking rather easy bud and its not like a approaching BS is a nimble ballerina dancing around as it approaches,.... But hey that is if i use scorch and do not just swap (instantly) to ranged faction with no penalties as it approaches.... we're talking about a ship that approaches from 45km to 15km.. whilst you're firing scorch on it (aka not at all within scorch optimal)... and you're saying how it just gets easier to track.. and that it'll be constant dps even if you keep using scorch down to 15km.. and you even say quite blatantly that you only have to switch to MF when he reaches 15km.. which means you proclaim that you can hit with stable dps with scorch from 45km down to 15km, on a target mwd'ing towards you.. and that it only hits harder or gets easier to hit as the target gets closer.. there you go, have your lulz..
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:00:00 - [280] Originally by: Zamolxiss @ Nightmare, Shining & Selia why do you bother!? What you guys fail to understand is that maralt aka murina is a nerf amarr troll.. he's trolling every single thread he can and when he can't find one he starts one.. There are hundreds of pages on a few duzin different theads on half the sections of this forum, from Shis and Modules to Game Develoment, consisting of nothing but trolling and ranting from this guy and the rest of the nerf amarr brigade (Chi Quan, Arkady Sadik, SecHaul etc), just one example as i can't be bothered to look for more.. So i ask you again, why do you bother!? point taken, leaving thread, thx for the heads up. cheers o/

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:01:00 - [281] Originally by: Zamolxiss ad hom troll... Well we considered starting thread after thread with alts but the nerf falcon tards already tried that...
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:04:00 - [282] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Zamolxiss @ Nightmare, Shining & Selia why do you bother!? What you guys fail to understand is that maralt aka murina is a nerf amarr troll.. he's trolling every single thread he can and when he can't find one he starts one.. There are hundreds of pages on a few duzin different theads on half the sections of this forum, from Shis and Modules to Game Develoment, consisting of nothing but trolling and ranting from this guy and the rest of the nerf amarr brigade (Chi Quan, Arkady Sadik, SecHaul etc), just one example as i can't be bothered to look for more.. OMG thanks you just gave me a great way of bailing on this thread cos i have made a total c*ck of myself... Fixed. point taken, leaving thread, thx for the heads up. cheers o/
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:09:00 - [283] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 20:12:13 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Range makes tracking rather easy bud and its not like a approaching BS is a nimble ballerina dancing around as it approaches,.... But hey that is if i use scorch and do not just swap (instantly) to ranged faction with no penalties as it approaches.... we're talking about a ship that approaches from 45km to 15km.. whilst you're firing scorch on it... and you're saying how it just gets easier to track.. and that it'll be constant dps even if you keep using scorch down to 15km.. there you go. 1. more range = easier tracking, so a ship at 45km is easier to track than one at say 10km. 2. A approaching ship does not have as good/high transversal as one that does not need to approach and can set a orbit. 3. ignoring resists ect look at the scorch dmg line and dps on the graph against a smaller BC with HIGH CONSTANT TRANSVERASAL. High and steady dps for those who do not understand. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. 4. stop posting.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:12:00 - [284] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 20:15:24 so you're telling me that you don't notice the curve going down from 950'ish dps to 820'ish dps on approaching targets using scorch? the curve is probably on targets that are moving away rather than targets that are approaching.. and either way the dps drops.. are you contradicting yourself yet again.. inded you are.. yeah.. why bother.. go on then.. troll away.. cheers o/ f'ing idiot doesn't even understand his own curve diagram..
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:22:00 - [285] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 20:24:32 Originally by: 7shining7one7 f'ing idiot doesn't even understand his own curve diagram.. Yeah. Anyways, i'm still waiting for your uberpwnage Abaddon setup Murina. Before you post that, you can say whatever **** you want to tell. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:23:00 - [286] Originally by: 7shining7one7 so you're telling me that you don't notice the curve going down from 950'ish dps to 820'ish dps on approaching targets using scorch? I hope you lubed up before posting dude.. SCORCH 700ISH DPS @ 15KM - 800DPS @ 45KM = 100DPS REDUCTION OVER 30KM. NULL 810ISH DPS @ 15KM - 420 DPS @ 30KM = 390 DPS REDUCTION OVER 15KM. NOW TELL US AGAIN HOW GREAT GALLENTE ARE AT FIGHTING IN FALLOFF AND HOW AMARR SUCK IN OPTIMAL AGAINST MOVING TARGETS.. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:24:00 - [287] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 20:22:33 Originally by: 7shining7one7 f'ing idiot doesn't even understand his own curve diagram.. Yeah. READ THE ABOVE POST CLOWN Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:26:00 - [288] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 20:25:55 Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 20:22:33 Originally by: 7shining7one7 f'ing idiot doesn't even understand his own curve diagram.. Yeah. READ THE ABOVE POST CLOWN Do you think i want to read you CAPS LOCK omg i'm so cool bcuz it's like cruise control text?. You still haven't posted your Abaddon setup. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:27:00 - [289] Originally by: NightmareX OWNED. Yup Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:29:00 - [290] Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX OWNED. Yup Me owned?, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Before you post your Abaddon setup, your the one who is owned. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:34:00 - [291] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 20:35:52 Originally by: 7shining7one7 first you say being below optimal has no effect on dps.. proclaiming that you can hit without any issues with scorch from 15 up to 45km.. with stable dps.. Being inside optimal does not effect dps muppet only movement/transversal does that noob. Here is a graph of the target ship when it is not moving look at the scorch line in its optimal noob...flat and steady Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:42:00 - [292] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 20:45:07 Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 20:44:04 Originally by: NightmareX post your Abaddon setup rigs, dmg mods and guns 8 mega pulse t2 3 amarr heat sinks 1 t2 dmg rig Implants 1 squire cr8 1 lancer g2 beta 1 squire cc8 1 gunslinger cx-2 1 lancer g2 epsilon tank 2 amaar eanm (you can switch a eanm for another plate but i prefer this) 1 1600 plate 1 t2 dcu 2 T1 trimarks Figure out the rest yourself, oh and i may have got the implants wrong as i am not as big of a paper tiger as some ppl so i picked those i thought were good... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:56:00 - [293] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 20:57:53 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 20:48:27 Originally by: NightmareX post your Abaddon setup rigs, dmg mods and guns 8 mega pulse t2 3 amarr heat sinks 1 t2 dmg rig Implants 1 squire cr8 1 lancer g2 beta 1 squire cc8 1 gunslinger cx-2 1 lancer g2 epsilon tank 2 amaar eanm (you can switch a eanm for another plate but i prefer this) 1 1600 plate 1 t2 dcu 2 T1 trimarks Figure out the rest yourself, oh and i may have got the implants wrong as i am not as big of a paper tiger as some ppl so i picked those i thought were good... Can you please post a setup that "might" be somewhat dangerous to my Tempest?. Or to a Megathron. I have fought many Abaddons on sisi with almost the same setup. The only thing that is better with this setup is that you use faction EANM's. Those i was fighting on sisi had normal t2 EANM's. About the implants. Almost EVERYONE on sisi fits Slaves and damage implants and such. So it's no excuse that i use that there. And i hope i don't have to tell you how badly ****d those Abaddons got by my Tempest. because you would cry like a baby if i told you. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:57:00 - [294] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 21:00:42 Originally by: Murina if you notice.. gallente blasters are extreme low range charges.. which means that the lower your optimal with hybrid the more you are affected by falloff.. IF THE TARGET IS NOT STATIONARY... if it is stationary the falloff has less effect.. i've said countless times to you that gallente hits quite nicely in falloff if the target is more or less stationary.. gallente blasters have extreme low range.. therefore the charge looses speed fast.. and thus looses impact/damage potential fast aswell when it goes into falloff.. but it isn't that bad of a leap when the target is stationary.. since the charge doesn't have to "chase" the ship, say if the ship is moving away, then the charge has to chase the ship and collide, rather than if the ship is coming towards you the charge hits it head on. now amarr are lasers and they are king of mid range.. they have pulses that does that for them.. their falloff is absolutely suck.. due to them being lasers.. if the target is stationary, due to them being lasers.. they still hit.. if the target starts moving towards them.. aka.. NOT TOWARDS THE OPTIMAL BUT BELOW THE OPTIMAL.. then something else happens and tracking becomes an issue and the dps is lessened aswell.. so there are two areas where lasers suck (depending on the crystal which influences optimal and tracking) outside optimal.. known as falloff and below optimal.. these two are NOT THE SAME BLOODY THING.. below optimal is not called falloff.. falloff is when the damage.. fades away.. or falls off if you will.. below optimal the damage is lessened aswell but it's a different process especially with lasers (i'll get to it) now blasters.. they fire hybrid charges.. clumps of antimatter or whatever else charge.. but with blasters.. they fire them very slowly.. hence.. if the target does not remain stationary, the charge impacts less and does less damage in the falloff.. but if the charge remains stationary it hits decently in falloff.. hence the reason for the blaster/web combination.. rails.. contrary to blasters.. fire the charge at great speed.. achieving greater ranges, but the charge has to travel further, hence it is smaller.. and does less damage.. but due to it's speed (momentum) it works excellent in falloff.. thus.. gallente hybrids are great at long range, and great at short range.. but midrange they are kind of meh with regards to stability of the dps due to the two modes.. fast slugs or short slugs, thus the inbetween slugs don't do much dmg.. but have their uses.. lasers do not have speed issues with the charges.. but their lasers have other issues.. when it gets to optimal.. the laser fades out quite rapidly.. which is why they are forced to allways finding their optimal.. cycling between the charges.. going below laser optimal does also have issues with regards to tracking.. also the laser is less focused than it is at the optimal.. look at it like a magnifying glass.. when the glass is significantly far away it focuses the light and it burns the newspaper or whatever you used as a kid, when you put the magnifying glass too close.. the focus fades and the beam diminishes.. same thing going on in the ingame physics.. now to your example.. which is quite staggeringly misconcieved but with your previous contradictions and misrepresentations and misunderstandings.. i doubt it was intentionally.. nonetheless; also what you are doing in the above example.. you might not have noticed but i did.. you take the scorch example when the ship is going towards scorch optimal.. and you take the null when the ship is going AWAY from null optimal.. and then you call it the same thing.. and say amarr is superior.. which is preposterous.. what you should've done was show a ship going towards scorch optimal.. (meaning moving away from you) and showing null with the ship coming towards you.. (and being webbed, hence becoming stationary) then you would see a much much different result
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:06:00 - [295] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 21:06:17 and no muria.. as you see you still didn't understand your own f'ing curve diagram.. your example was severely flawed.. and the only one you repeadetly "owned" was yourself with your contradictions upon contradictions..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:06:00 - [296] Originally by: 7shining7one7 i've said countless times to you that gallente hits quite nicely in falloff if the target is more or less stationary.. Fall off is fall off muppet the % of dmg reduction is static over every gunnery system..your such a fool. Originally by: 7shining7one7 if the target is stationary, due to them being lasers.. they still hit.. if the target starts moving towards them.. aka.. NOT TOWARDS THE OPTIMAL BUT BELOW THE OPTIMAL.. then something else happens and tracking becomes an issue and the dps is lessened aswell.. Its only lateral movement that effect guns...all guns ffs. Originally by: 7shining7one7 outside optimal.. known as falloff and below optimal... Being outside optimal has the same % reduction for every gunnery system, inside optimal does not effect the dps of system only lateral movement (transversal) and being outside optimal does you fool. You have no idea wtf you are talking about. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:09:00 - [297] you take the scorch example when the ship is going towards scorch optimal.. and you take the null when the ship is going AWAY from null optimal.. and then you call it the same thing.. and say amarr is superior.. which is preposterous.. what you should've done was show a ship going towards scorch optimal.. (meaning moving away from you) and showing null with the ship coming towards you.. (and being webbed, hence becoming stationary)
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:10:00 - [298] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 21:12:05 Originally by: 7shining7one7 you take the scorch example when the ship is going towards scorch optimal.. and you take the null when the ship is going AWAY from null optimal.. and then you call it the same thing.. and say amarr is superior.. which is preposterous.. The first graph showed a steady transversal with the ship orbiting at each range neither moving away or getting closer you muppet... The second showed the ship bloody stationary at each range ffs... Please god stop your ranting and learn how the systems and transversal/optimal works ffs... OMG you are such a clueless noob...
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:18:00 - [299] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 21:22:20 Originally by: Murina OMG you are such a clueless noob... Yeah that comes from the right mouth. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:20:00 - [300] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 i've said countless times to you that gallente hits quite nicely in falloff if the target is more or less stationary.. Fall off is fall off muppet the % of dmg reduction is static over every gunnery system..your such a fool. Originally by: 7shining7one7 if the target is stationary, due to them being lasers.. they still hit.. if the target starts moving towards them.. aka.. NOT TOWARDS THE OPTIMAL BUT BELOW THE OPTIMAL.. then something else happens and tracking becomes an issue and the dps is lessened aswell.. Its only lateral movement that effect guns...all guns ffs. Originally by: 7shining7one7 outside optimal.. known as falloff and below optimal... Being outside optimal has the same % reduction for every gunnery system, inside optimal does not effect the dps of system only lateral movement (transversal) and being outside optimal does you fool. You have no idea wtf you are talking about. well you sure did say fool quite a many times.. but let's look at it and just forget for a moment the contradictions you posted earlier before you changed your mind.. ok.. below falloff is not falloff.. and if the target is stationary you will hit a whole lot more with null in falloff than you will if the target is moving.. and with regards to hybrid charges, it sure also depends on if the target is moving away from your optimal or towards your optimal. (this is shown by your curve graph but you don't notice) only lateral movement affect guns.. but lasers don't fire projectiles.. they fire a beam.. there's no holes in the beam.. thus it's instant and focused.. it's light.. and when they get closer to the optimal of the crystals optimal focus point for the laser beam.. then the effect diminishes and it gets less dps.. (this is shown by your curve graph, but you don't notice it) projectiles or hybrid charges can't be equated with beams.. because they are not a beam but a moving object if you will.. (this is shown by your curve graph but you don't notice it) your graph also shows that while hybrids and projectiles hit more in falloff.. whereas lasers come to a blinding halt.. but below optimal.. the lasers still get diminished dps due to tracking and due to the lack of focus of the crystal.. so as you can see.. even your own curve graph that you don't understand.. shows that falloff isn't just falloff.. muppet.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:21:00 - [301] Originally by: NightmareX Can you please post a setup that "might" be somewhat dangerous to my Tempest?. Or to a Megathron. How the hell should i know this is the first time i have really used eft and all i did was pile on the sameish mods mr optimal muppet did on the hyperion but the laser versions. Originally by: NightmareX I have fought many Abaddons on sisi with almost the same setup. And i hope i don't have to tell you how badly ***d those Abaddons got by my Tempest. Whoopie yip da fking do for you then bud, wanna cookie?. Originally by: NightmareX Because you would cry like a baby if i told you. Actually you would proly find that i was paralyzed into immobility by not giving the slightest carp about some eft/sisi bf area hero... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:23:00 - [302] Originally by: 7shining7one7 rant Just stop dude, you have no clue. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:27:00 - [303] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 rant Just stop dude, you have no clue. Says the right person. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:31:00 - [304] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 21:35:58 Originally by: 7shining7one7 below falloff is not falloff.. Below falloff is called optimal and you will hit a stationary battleship for your max dps less his resists. Originally by: 7shining7one7 it sure also depends on if the target is moving away from your optimal or towards your optimal. (this is shown by your curve graph but you don't notice) NO IT DOES NOT FFS, the optimal range dmg was reduced in the graph cos the ship was orbiting and orbiting at closer ranges increases transversal, a ship directly approaching or moving away inside optimal will not get hit for more or less no matter if its approaching or moving away no matter the system your using. Originally by: 7shining7one7 projectiles or hybrid charges can't be equated with beams.. because they are not a beam but a moving object if you will..only lateral movement affect guns.. but lasers don't fire projectiles.. they fire a beam.. (this is shown by your curve graph but you don't notice it) OMG... in RL laser may work like that but in eve you aint firing real lasers and the calculations to decide hits and misses are done with the same math as the other turrets ffs. OMG JUST STOP. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:35:00 - [305] Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal Really?. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits..... Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:38:00 - [306] Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal Really?. OMG, learn to quote noob. I have never ever said that sentence.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:39:00 - [307] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 21:40:37 Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal Really?. OMG, learn to quote noob. I have never ever said that sentence. Are you sure?, it sounds exactly like summat you would and have been saying and i cannot be bothered to recheck, are you saying its wrong?.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:41:00 - [308] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 21:41:26 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 21:39:33 Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal Really?. OMG, learn to quote noob. I have never ever said that sentence. Are you sure?, it sound like summat you would say and i cannot be bothered to recheck, are you saying its wrong?. I have some few words to say to you. Learn to quote. Or read on the other hand.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:44:00 - [309] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 21:46:09 Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal Im not gonna go and troll over your silly posts bud but if you say you did not post that i may believe you, but to be clear do you agree with the comment or not?. Cos it was you or the other fella and you seem to be supporting him and telling me im wrong when i point out his mistake????.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:48:00 - [310] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 21:53:46 actually it's quite accurate what i've said.. your first graph shows how the neutron hyperion hits around 1200 dps with the fit you put in it (2 damage mods).. and showing how ** poor the abaddon scorch is compared to that.. the other abaddon that comes closer to the dps of the 2 dmg mod hyperion has 3 damage mods on it (hardly a fair comparison) it also shows how the line is nicely and slowly curving into optimal for the null.. and gradually becoming greater damage with the scorch.. so regardless if the ship is moving away or towards the ship in this situation (it is quite relevant which is the case please clarify) it clearly shows that hyperion blasters does more damage and is graceful in falloff.. and that lasers are poor in falloff.. and that the scorch is below optimal rather than outside optimal in falloff which is why it does not loose as much dps when it is below optimal, than it does when it goes over optimal and into actual falloff.. because there.. it drops allmost instantly.. as expected.. the next graph where the ships are stationary.. (apparently you chose to pick ION blasters and MEGATHRONS this time to show less dmg than what the hype delivers.. now you are comparing tier2 gallente ship to a tier3 amarr ship) but nonetheless this also shows how graceful the blasters are in falloff.. and shows how scorch maintains dps since the target is not moving and how lasers are ** poor in the falloff.. thus showing that falloff is not just falloff.. you apparently say "best navy" with the yellow abaddon with megapulse.. which charge is that again.. and what is the optimal for it. because as you can clearly tell the low optimal progression is totally inconsistant with how the scorch behaves... here we see a loong gradual falloff.. totally inconsistent with lasers when they are beyond their optimal.. it even goes so far as to cross scorch and level out at the same time.. yeah right.. whichever the case is with these two... what you have shown is... a) hybrids are graceful in falloff.. b) hybrids do way more dmg than lasers c) you've compared a midrange weapon (which scorch becomes when you put it in a megapulse) to an extreme short range weapon, and then saying that dps is the issue when really the dps is less on lasers but they have more range and thus have to move less to get within optimal.. and thus lasers do more damage over time unless hybrid users move and get within their optimal in which case the tables turn.. d) shown clearly that amarr is not overpowered to any degrees with regards to dps.. and that they are indeed kings of mid range, and that gallente are kings of short range.. which is exactly the opposite of what you have been whining about the entire thread.. great job

NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:49:00 - [311] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 21:50:37 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 21:47:44 Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal Im not gonna go and troll over your silly posts bud but if you say you did not post that i may believe you, but to be clear do you agree with the comment or not?. Cos it was you or the other fella (7shining7one7) and you seem to be supporting him and telling me im wrong when i point out his mistake????. Dude, your so boring. Do you really think we will agree with you when you don't agree on the true facts we have told you like 10 times here?. Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ****ing way. If you don't know why, then your lost. And i mean really really lost. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:49:00 - [312] Originally by: 7shining7one7 rant Grown ups are talking be quiet pls. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:51:00 - [313] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 21:52:41 Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY **ing way So you support this post and its content?. Originally by:** NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal YAY I GOT A NEW SIG THEN... Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:53:00 - [314] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 21:54:09 Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX busted/owned So you support this post and its content?. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal Wow, are you braindamaged or what?. It's something i'm not asking normally, but when it's going this far, then i just have to ask. Sorry if i did hurt your feeling by asking this. I think your out of words on what to say now. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:55:00 - [315] Originally by: NightmareX EMORAGERANT So do you think my shiny new sig needs emo cons or is it ok as it is?. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:58:00 - [316] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 22:01:15 Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX EMORAGERANT So do you think my shiny new sig needs emo cons or is it ok as it is?. Oh noes, Murina is trying to hurt my feelings, oh noes. Doesn't you have anything better to say lol?. Or are you completely out of words to say to what we have told you?. And also, if you have seen earlier topics like this when i have been in those topics, your going to lose this BAAAAAADLY. Discussing like this is not going to get you anywhere. But plase just continue. I'm enjoying this, because both me and 7shining7one7 are right about this.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:58:00 - [317] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 22:03:47 what you have shown is... a) hybrids are graceful in falloff.. b) hybrids do way more dmg than lasers, when ignoring resists and dmg types and especially when factoring them in to find the actual dmg inflicted.. c) you've compared a midrange weapon (which scorch becomes when you put it in a megapulse) to an extreme short range weapon, and then saying that dps is the issue when really the dps is less on lasers but they have more range and thus have to move less to get within optimal.. and thus lasers do more damage over time unless hybrid users move and get within their optimal in which case the tables turn.. d) shown clearly that amarr is not overpowered to any degree with regards to dps.. and that they are indeed kings of mid range, and that gallente are kings of short range.. good at long range, and mediocre at mid range. and has the best base resists and damage type combination to battle amarr than any other race in game. (which is why amarr has gotten shafted by gallentean megathrons for ages) which is exactly the opposite of what you have been whining about the entire thread.. great job cmon.. where's your amarr is overpowered rant.. when all your graphs show otherwise.. what a f'ing failure.. you forgot what you were ranting about.. and went on a great trolling adventure till you forgot what you were actually talking about and then decided in your rage to prove yourself wrong.. and now you're going after nightmare cause he stepped on your toes after you stomped on his.. cheers..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:01:00 - [318] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX EMORAGERANT So do you think my shiny new sig needs emo cons or is it ok as it is?. Oh noes, Murina is trying to hurt my feelings, oh noes. Doesn't you have anything better to say lol?. Or are you completely out of words to say to what we have told you?. Well other than whining about me not telling you my baddon fit, making emo insults and supporting nonsensical posts about fragmenting laserbeams by approaching them(im gonna eat out on that one for a looong time) and such you have told me nothing at all. Oh you did give your sissi bf area 1 v 1 BS epeen a stroke...
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:02:00 - [319] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 22:05:42 Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX EMORAGERANT So do you think my shiny new sig needs emo cons or is it ok as it is?. Oh noes, Murina is trying to hurt my feelings, oh noes. Doesn't you have anything better to say lol?. Or are you completely out of words to say to what we have told you?. Well other than whining about me not telling you my baddon fit, making emo insults and supporting nonsensical posts about fragmenting laserbeams by approaching them(im gonna eat out on that one for a looong time) and such you have told me nothing at all. Oh you did give your sissi bf area 1 v 1 BS epeen a stroke... Oh, you still haven't learned to read or quote, awesome. Keep up the awesome poasting dude. And you know that sisi and TQ are exact the same when it's about DPS, webs and tracking right?.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:09:00 - [320] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:12:35 Originally by: 7shining7one7 b) hybrids do way more dmg than lasers, when ignoring resists and dmg types and especially when factoring them in to find the actual dmg inflicted.. Actually lasers do a lot more raw dmg in optimal than blasters do (MF vs antimatter or scorch vs null)...a lot more you just are not smart enough to do the math.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:12:00 - [321] Originally by: NightmareX And you know that sisi and TQ are exact the same when it's about DPS, webs and tracking right?. And you can sit all day in local with a faction fitted implanted BS looking in local for the 1 v 1 BS fights you are specifically fitted for, and have a designated area that is enforced by ccp where everybody honors the rules....
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:12:00 - [322] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 22:13:12 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 b) hybrids do way more dmg than lasers, when ignoring resists and dmg types and especially when factoring them in to find the actual dmg inflicted.. Actually lasers do a lot more dmg in optimal than blasters do (MF vs antimatter or scorch vs null)...a lot more you just are not smart enough to do the math. why do all your graphs show that hybrids do more damage? even when you did the megathron ion 2 dmg mods vs abaddon megapulse 2 dmg mods or the hyperion with 2 dmg mods vs an abaddon with 3 dmg mods.. it didn't matter .. the megathron and the hyperion still f'ing beat it in dps it's priceless.. also.. speaking of math.. i'd love to see you do 200 dps using scorch at a target that's 75km away.. when your optimal with scorch is 45km.. apparently amarr according to your graph are absolutely awesome in falloff.. even more so than minmatarr.. who would've thunk it.. totally contrary to the ingame experiences.. but you're probably right..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:15:00 - [323] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:15:45 Originally by: 7shining7one7 why do all your graphs show that hybrids do more damage? They do not show that, you just cannot read them properly.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:16:00 - [324] Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX And you know that sisi and TQ are exact the same when it's about DPS, webs and tracking right?. And you can sit all day in local with a faction fitted implanted BS looking in local for the 1 v 1 BS fights you are specifically fitted for, and have a designated area that is enforced by ccp where everybody honors the rules.... My Tempest is faction fitted?. Wow, what kind of a ****tard have told you that?. My tempest is ONLY t2 fitted. And my fitting is never changed only because i'm gonna fight a megathron or a geddon. I always use the same PVP setup.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:17:00 - [325] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 22:13:12 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 b) hybrids do way more dmg than lasers, when ignoring resists and dmg types and especially when factoring them in to find the actual dmg inflicted.. Actually lasers do a lot more dmg in optimal than blasters do (MF vs antimatter or scorch vs null)...a lot more you just are not smart enough to do the math. why do all your graphs show that hybrids do more damage? They do not show that you just cannot read them properly. i see hybrids doing most damage on all of them.. and i see you trying to fudge the numbers by comparing hypes and megathrons with 2 dmg mods.. to abaddons and geddons with 3 dmg mods and even then they still fail to do more dmg at optimal than the aforementioned. how do you explain that?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:19:00 - [326] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:21:17 Originally by: 7shining7one7 i see hybrids doing most damage on all of them.. how do you explain that? Slot and pg availability and ehp nublet, and if you cannot see pulse doing massive amounts of more raw dmg in their optimal than blasters thats your problem cos its there to see.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:20:00 - [327] This whole argument means zilch - Even if it were 1000 dps at 90km, it would still mean nothing...Picking out a very narrowed aspect of any ship in game and crying OP is ludicrous. Murina, stop trashing up our forums with this garbage. Your quickly reaching the same level of annoyance as Skydancer.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:22:00 - [328] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 22:24:37 linkage this shows hype with 2 dmg mods beating an armageddon with 3 dmg mods.. it also shows a hype with null charges hitting out to 40-50km.. wtf? it's gotta be because the drone damage is factored in.. hey that graph utill.. is it in beta by any chance?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:28:00 - [329] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:31:46 Originally by: 7shining7one7 this shows hype with 2 dmg mods beating an armageddon with 3 dmg mods.. No its does not show the hype beating it, not even close, the geddon is owning the dmg amount in optimal. Originally by: 7shining7one7 it also shows a hype with null charges hitting out to 40-50km.. wtf? it's gotta be because the drone damage is factored in.. Its not hitting at 40-50km with null then is it...., These were realistic fits on properly fitted and tanked ships including drones. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:32:00 - [330] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 22:34:42 Murina, i forgot to tell you that i'm proud of your signature. Because it shows the true image of you. I feel kinda special that my name is on a sig to someone else here. Now, only if you could have said something that i have said my self, then it would be even more cool. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'

7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:33:00 - [331] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:31:46 Originally by: 7shining7one7 this shows hype with 2 dmg mods beating an armageddon with 3 dmg mods.. No its does not show the hype beating it, not even close, the geddon is owning the dmg amount in optimal. Originally by: 7shining7one7 it also shows a hype with null charges hitting out to 40-50km.. wtf? it's gotta be because the drone damage is factored in.. Its not hitting at 40-50km with null then is it...., These were realistic fits on properly fitted and tanked ships including drones. oh i get it, you're looking at it upside down.. that's why the teal scorch abaddon does most dmg in your eyes..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:36:00 - [332] Originally by: NightmareX Murina, i forgot to tell you that i'm proud of your signature. Because it shows the true image of you. It actually showed me just how far you are willing to go and how much obviously deluded rubbish you are willing to support...Do you honestly think supporting ignorant and utterly wrong comments like that is a good idea?..... Its your rep dude, and if their one thing i know its that the truth trumps troll every time.... You failed. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:37:00 - [333] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:37:38 Originally by: 7shining7one7 oh i get it, you're looking at it upside down.. that's why the teal scorch abaddon does most dmg in your eyes.. Nope keep trying jr, you may get there eventually..its quite simple really. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:39:00 - [334] Originally by: 7shining7one7 lol? Please stop posting. Please. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:40:00 - [335] Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Murina, i forgot to tell you that i'm proud of your signature. Because it shows the true image of you. It actually showed me just how far you are willing to go and how much obviously deluded rubbish you are willing to support...Do you honestly think supporting ignorant and utterly wrong comments like that is a good idea?..... Its your rep dude, and if their one thing i know its that the truth trumps troll every time.... You failed. NO U.. seriously dude.. the amount of rubbish, ad hominems and contradictions you've made in this thread alone brings you quite close to the troll hall of fame.. if anything you are the last person that should be talking about rep right now... you're so far out that you are denying your own graphs just cause they don't consist with what you are now saying.. and cause you're tired of contradicting yourself.. and then you assault some random dude trying to give him a bad rep for calling you an idiot after you've stomped on his feet quite extensively.. that's awesome..
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:43:00 - [336] Originally by: Murina Do you honestly think supporting ignorant and utterly wrong comments like that is a good idea?..... The wrong comments?. Hahahaha, your so awesome dude, please continue to poast. Please JUST DO IT. Hah, this is getting funnier and funnier. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:44:00 - [337] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 22:44:47 Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: 7shining7one7 lol? Please stop posting. Please. look at that.. that's how much sense you just made. you got a troll saying that megapulse in optimal beats blasters in optimal and he's using that to say that amarr are overpowered and you're telling me to shut up?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:44:00 - [338] Originally by: 7shining7one7 you're so far out that you are denying your own graphs just cause they don't consist with what you are now saying.. I am denying nothing, you just need to learn the basics. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and then you assault some random dude trying to give him a bad rep for calling you an idiot.. Insults get responded to by insults, and he chose to back your silly "approaching inside optimal reduces laser dmg" idea when he, i and everybody but you knows how absurdly wrong it is. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:46:00 - [339] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 you're so far out that you are denying your own graphs just cause they don't consist with what you are now saying.. I am denying nothing, you just need to learn the basics. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and then you assault some random dude trying to give him a bad rep for calling you an idiot.. Insults get responded to by insults, and he chose to back your silly "approaching inside optimal reduces laser dmg" idea when he, i and everybody but you knows how absurdly wrong it is. Do you know why i back him up?. Dude i'm not an idiot when it's about fittings / ships and stats on ships / items. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:47:00 - [340] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina Do you honestly think supporting ignorant and utterly wrong comments like that is a good idea?..... The wrong comments?. Hahahaha, your so awesome dude, please continue to poast. Please JUST DO IT. Hah, this is getting funnier and funnier. OK mr pro, does approaching a laser ship inside its optimal with 0 transversal reduce the dmg you take (cos of beam fragmentation or whatever)?. I say no what do you say?. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal

7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:47:00 - [341] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 you're so far out that you are denying your own graphs just cause they don't consist with what you are now saying.. I am denying nothing, you just need to learn the basics. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and then you assault some random dude trying to give him a bad rep for calling you an idiot.. Insults get responded to by insults, and he chose to back your silly "approaching inside optimal reduces laser dmg" idea when he, i and everybody but you knows how absurdly wrong it is. what about when you say megapulse has more dps than blasters when they are both at optimal.. and how about when you said that it's easier to track once the target gets closer..
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:49:00 - [342] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:47:53 Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina Do you honestly think supporting ignorant and utterly wrong comments like that is a good idea?..... The wrong comments?. Hahahaha, your so awesome dude, please continue to poast. Please JUST DO IT. Hah, this is getting funnier and funnier. OK mr pro, does approaching a laser ship inside its optimal with 0 transversal to effect dmg reduce the dmg you take (cos of beam fragmentation or whatever)?. I say no what do you say?. Why the hell do you bring up something i have never said?. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:51:00 - [343] Originally by: 7shining7one7 what about when you say megapulse has more dps than blasters when they are both at optimal.. They do, a lot more you just do not understand the graphs. Originally by: 7shining7one7 and how about when you said that it's easier to track once the target gets closer.. I said range makes tracking easier, it was you who wrongly interpreted it to mean closer. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:51:00 - [344] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 22:52:28 Originally by: NightmareX Why the hell do you bring up something i have never said?. It is summat you supported pal. When i asked you about that commentt you said... Quote: Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY **ing way. Originally by:** NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:52:00 - [345] cause he's gone over to personal attacks since he realized that amarr wasn't overpowered dps wise but simply has more range which causes them to do less dps but more damage over time due to them just switching crystals to stay in optimal rather than having to move around like gallente has to.. unless gallente moves and gets within optimal in which case the tables turn.. the thread is over.. he's just going through the death cramps and throwing sjit at ppl..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:54:00 - [346] Originally by: 7shining7one7 ignorant troll Go away even nightmare knows you optimal idea was stupid and ignorant. Originally by: NightmareX Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching them even with 0 transversal
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:54:00 - [347] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 22:54:55 Originally by: Murina It is summat you supported pal. So only because i support 7shining7one7 in what he's saying, you have to write something that i have never said in your sig?. You have 30 mins to remove your sig or get reported. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:57:00 - [348] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 22:57:23 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 ignorant troll Go away even nightmare knows you optimal idea was stupid and ignorant. then why don't you flame me instead of nightmare.. ? he's got sjit to do with what i said.. trying to give him a bad rep or whatever.. what are you.. 5?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:57:00 - [349] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina It is summat you supported pal. So only because i support 7shining7one7 in what he's saying, you have to have that in your sig?. You have 30 mins to remove your sig or get reported. I will remove it instantly if you use you amazing game knowledge to tell us if its accurate or not?, after all we are here for the truth are we not?. Il give you the geddon fit if you do, and all im asking for is honesty, hardly summat you should be afraid of.. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:59:00 - [350] Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina It is summat you supported pal. So only because i support 7shining7one7 in what he's saying, you have to have that in your sig?. You have 30 mins to remove your sig or get reported. I will remove it instantly if you use you amazing game knowledge to tell us if its accurate or not?, after all we are here for the truth are we not?. Il give you the geddon fit if you do, and all im asking for is honesty, hardly summat you should be afraid of.. Time is ticking. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:01:00 - [351] Originally by: NightmareX Time is ticking. Tell you what il change it, ccp cannot have a problem with accurate quoting................or the truth unlike you it seems... Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:02:00 - [352] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 23:03:17 Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina It is summat you supported pal. So only because i support 7shining7one7 in what he's saying, you have to have that in your sig?. You have 30 mins to remove your sig or get reported. I will remove it instantly if you use you amazing game knowledge to tell us if its accurate or not?, after all we are here for the truth are we not?. Il give you the geddon fit if you do, and all im asking for is honesty, hardly summat you should be afraid of.. why don't you give us some truth and admit that this whole amarr is overpowered rant had diddly to do with dps and everything to do with amarr having more range on pulse than gallente has on blasters.. which means that gallente can do more dmg but has to move around more and keep the target more stationary in to do it.. and why do you then not also concede that amarr has a lot of fitting and cap issues to contend with, that seems to balance this out.. not to mention lack of dronage.. when has blaster megathron been useless.. it hasn't.. it's only since amarr has become more viable due to the speed nerf that you start to complain.. i bet you didn't complain all the time that the blasterhrons were owning anything that moved.. double standards are awesome aren't they.. oh and why is it your main is banned from posting?
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:02:00 - [353] Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 23:03:46 Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Time is ticking. Tell you what il change it, ccp cannot have a problem with accurate quoting................or the truth unlike you it seems... They will remove it when it's about insutling players for something that haven't been said. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:04:00 - [354] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 23:04:44 Originally by: NightmareX EDIT. That was a better sig Murina. That one can stay. Like its up to you. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:07:00 - [355] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 23:04:44 Originally by: NightmareX EDIT. That was a better sig Murina. That one can stay. Like its up to you. Believe it or not, if i had reported it, it would be removed. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:11:00 - [356] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 23:12:08 Ok, it seems the silly trolls have gone so lets continue. The graphs clearly show that with such huge optimal and high dmg as well as the fact that with the available target selection BS have the reduced tracking on BS lasers is not significant enough to be a real limiting factor. This makes them considerably overpowered compared to blasters or AC and as such adjustments are required to one or all 3 of the systems. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:11:00 - [357] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 23:12:42 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 23:03:46 Originally by: Murina Originally by: NightmareX Time is ticking. Tell you what il change it, ccp cannot have a problem with accurate quoting................or the truth unlike you it seems... They will remove it when it's about insutling players for something that haven't been said. yeah, i was the one who said that, in hindsight it probably has more to do with the tracking than a dual issue of tracking and the laser properties.. but in my experience with rails, when a target gets closer and gets below optimal you do less damage on it because the optimal is so far out and because of the tracking and transversal more than anything else.. and with beams it seems same thing.. and with pulse and blasters.. well that's different cause when they get closer they go towards optimal rather than away from optimal and then you actually start to hit better as they get closer to you because the optimal is so close to 0km.. except in the case of scorch where they when they get closer go well below optimal so that's probably due to tracking and how that relates to the distance from the optimal to 0km.. at any rate i was the one who said that.. nightmare has diddly to do with that.. i've been right about most things i've said in this thread.. which is the parts he's referring to.. at any rate.. if you want to flame someone for saying something.. then flame the person saying it rather than someone else.. you're being a f'ing idiot and you know it. right is right.. and fair is fair also.
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:12:00 - [358] lmao I thought it ended two pages ago, see you boys still going at it.. Murina, given that i think you fail at eve on every level.. i'm obviously a noob.. like most of the people here.. so i was wondering.. if we fail at understanding the game even thogh you tryied to enlighten us on countless ocasions, in numerous threads during recent times.. why don't you do it the hard way!?.. i mean why don't you shut our noobish, clueless mouths the way a true know it all, elite pvp'er like yourself would!? it gives you the chance to put your money where your mouth is and it also gives us the change to learn from a true master!? What do you say mate!? classic 1 vs 1 in bs's.. lets say 1 bil a match, best of 21!?.. easy 11 bil for a true master like yourself.. Don't let me down mate
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:15:00 - [359] Originally by: 7shining7one7 yeah, i was the one who said that, in hindsight it probably has more to do with the tracking than a dual issue of tracking and the laser properties.. Simple honesty apparently beyond nightmare... Now we can begin if you wish, wanna know the geddon setup?, or how i can easily show laser out damaging blasters in their respective optimals?.. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:18:00 - [360] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 23:12:08 Ok, it seems the silly trolls have gone so lets continue. The graphs clearly show that with such huge optimal and high dmg as well as the fact that with the available target selection BS have the reduced tracking on BS lasers is not significant enough to be a real limiting factor. This makes them considerably overpowered compared to blasters or AC and as such adjustments are required to one or all 3 of the systems. isn't the adjustment just that you fit rails with antimatter or move around a bit more and get within optimal with blasters? i mean you can't just expect gallente to rival amarr in mid range just cause you want to sit still and pop them 40km out with blasters.. sure ccp could make blasters just like megapulse but how sad would that be.. it'd just be removing one fun way of doing combat and replacing it with more of the same.. so what if it's not viable right now.. or a bit harder to achieve with the speed and web nerf.. it's still fun when you get within optimal and do insane amounts of damage.. you can warp in straight on top of them or whatever..

NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:18:00 - [361] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 yeah, i was the one who said that, in hindsight it probably has more to do with the tracking than a dual issue of tracking and the laser properties.. Simple honesty apparently beyond nightmare... Now we can begin if you wish, wanna know the geddon setup?, or how i can easily show laser out damaging blasters in their respective optimals?.. I'm also honest for telling that i'm supporting 7shining7one7. Because i know he's right.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:22:00 - [362] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 yeah, i was the one who said that, in hindsight it probably has more to do with the tracking than a dual issue of tracking and the laser properties.. Simple honesty apparently beyond nightmare... Now we can begin if you wish, wanna know the geddon setup?, or how i can easily show laser out damaging blasters in their respective optimals?.. I'm also honest for telling that i'm supporting 7shining7one7. Because i know he's right. So now he has the honesty to say he was wrong but your saying/implying he is right?....we all 3 know he was wrong i suggest you grow a pair, admit it and move on. You can still give him your support but at least you wont look like a manipulative coward hiding behind words.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:22:00 - [363] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/02/2009 23:26:15 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 yeah, i was the one who said that, in hindsight it probably has more to do with the tracking than a dual issue of tracking and the laser properties.. Simple honesty apparently beyond nightmare... Now we can begin if you wish, wanna know the geddon setup?, or how i can easily show laser out damaging blasters in their respective optimals?.. well i don't get how you can say that pulse outdamage blasters cause they don't.. blasters do FAR more damage.. and have a more heavy hitting damage type overall.. what i do get is that you are saying that pulse do overall more damage due to scorch making them similar to beams to some degrees and which allows them to do more damage over time because they can just switch crystals and stay within optimal, whereas gallentean blasterboats have to move around.. but amarr doesn't do more dps within optimal.. they do more damage over time because they can switch to optimal quite easily.. but then they have cap and fitting issues and lack of mobility due to viable fits.. and less midslots.. and they also have very little dronage except the geddon.. so they rely on scorch and the instant optimal switch to sit protected outside the range of blasterboats so they don't get their golden armor torn apart.. not all crystals however do same amount of damage.. when you switch the optimals some do far far less.. and i don't find that you can just use scorch all the way down to 15km.. and just use scorch and multifreq regardless of the transversal or range of the enemy and still do the same dps.. also get the f off nightmare's back.. if someone's acting stupid right now it's you.. IMO
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:25:00 - [364] Originally by: 7shining7one7 i mean you can't just expect gallente to rival amarr in mid range just cause you want to sit still and pop them 40km out with blasters.. I want and have suggested no such thing on any forum anywhere. You have inferred that from your paranoia but you could not be further from the truth as i would oppose totally blasters hitting over 30km let alone out to 40.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:26:00 - [365] Edited by: Selia Rain on 07/02/2009 23:26:17 I wish to know where these mystical abbadons that are fitting 2x AN EANM and 3x AN 'sinks(to compete with T2 fit mega with 2MFS) are lurking, that I may kill them and use the loot for the greater good(of myself). Sorry I can't justify spending 160m+ extra on my lowslots just so I can epeen that I'm sooo much better than a T2 fit mega(that would cost less than 1/3rd as much). In my opinion, the smaller the gang is, the more essential the second plate is over a third 'sink. Larger gangs benefit more from the enhanced dps(and the likelihood you an abbadon being primary is kinda lol anyways in a medium sized gang). Therefor I fly with 2x(T2 only) sinks fitted, and carry a third so I can swap if needed. Blasters. Close range >10km PWNAGE. Lazors. Mid range 15-45km PWNAGE. This is fact(do the maths!) and non debatable. I don't see how this is broken, imba, or ZOMG, AMARR IS OVERPOWERED. There is little/no overlap, though target painters(PWNAGE) could use a buff. EDIT: Rokh, locus rigs. 24km optimal with null.
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:29:00 - [366] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 yeah, i was the one who said that, in hindsight it probably has more to do with the tracking than a dual issue of tracking and the laser properties.. Simple honesty apparently beyond nightmare... Now we can begin if you wish, wanna know the geddon setup?, or how i can easily show laser out damaging blasters in their respective optimals?.. well i don't get how you can say that pulse outdamage blasters cause they don't.. blasters do FAR more damage.. and have a more heavy hitting damage type overall.. what i do get is that you are saying that pulse do overall more damage due to scorch making them similar to beams to some degrees and which allows them to do more damage over time because they can just switch crystals and stay within optimal, whereas gallentean blasterboats have to move around.. but amarr doesn't do more dps within optimal.. they do more damage over time because they can switch to optimal quite easily.. not all crystals however do same amount of damage.. when you switch the optimals some do far far less.. and i don't find that you can just use scorch all the way down to 15km.. and just use scorch and multifreq regardless of the transversal or range of the enemy.. It's simple mate, he can say it cause he never intended to back it up in any way.. to put his isk where his mouth is.. it comes at no cost to him.. no reply murina!? i'm dissapointed mate.. please don't dissapoint me.. pretty please
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:31:00 - [367] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 i mean you can't just expect gallente to rival amarr in mid range just cause you want to sit still and pop them 40km out with blasters.. I want and have suggested no such thing on any forum anywhere. You have inferred that from your paranoia but you could not be further from the truth as i would oppose totally blasters hitting over 30km let alone out to 40. so instead you would have scorch stripped from the amarrian crystal range.. and reduce the dps from moderate to **** poor and having ppl switch crystals non stop and forced to fit mwd's and cause a furthering of the fitting nightmare that is flying amarr.. ? so that amarr would have to engage gallenteans within blaster range.. wow.. yeah that's totally fair cause it'll be so damn even that it's hard to declare a winner isn't it.. right now you are fighting within amarr's optimal.. and outside your own.. unless you mwd to the ship or switch to rails and go tank + less damage.. (which is exactly the type of fits that amarrians have).. and you want amarr's midrange to be stripped so that gallente can more easily get within optimal and pwn them since amarr now has to engage gallente at shorter ranges.. nah.. that's a bad idea imo.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:39:00 - [368] Originally by: 7shining7one7 well i don't get how you can say that pulse outdamage blasters cause they don't.. blasters do FAR more damage.. I can see how you would think that cos of the spikes of dmg but follow the math Faction AM vs faction MF first ok?. Faction AM hit for 1500 for 4.5km, 1500 x 4.5km = 6750 dmg Faction MF hit for 1200 for 15km, 1200 x 15km = 17880 dmg Null hits for 1256 for 11km, 1256 x 11km = 13816 dmg Scorch hits for 959 for 45km, 959 x 11km = 43155 dmg Now Blasters may have the spike of dmg greater than lasers at 4.5km, but that is it while lasers do very high amounts of dmg in close but also vast amounts of dmg out to 45km all in optimal. And dmg spikes within a tiny optimal is not worth squat when your facing such overwhelming optimal firepower.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:45:00 - [369] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 23:46:28 Originally by: 7shining7one7 so instead you would have scorch stripped from the amarrian crystal range.. and reduce the dps from moderate to ** poor and having ppl switch crystals non stop and forced to fit mwd's and cause a furthering of the fitting nightmare that is flying amarr.. You will not find that on any forum either and i would oppose** the reduction or dmg on scorch or any other crystal. What i would do is increase the damage of blasters to at least match amarr scorch/mf dmg up to 20km with a steep falloff to 27/30km and 0 after 30km as it is now apart from the slight drone dmg. This way amarr rule at 20+ to 45+ as they should, we are kinda level from 10-20km and gallente still get the 3-10km range.
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:50:00 - [370] Originally by: Murina I have a very big mouth but no balls or brains to back it up.. so i'm ignoring the guy who challanged me to a 1 vs 1 tournament.. i'm so awesome.. but why am i the only one who sees it!!!!!!!!!!11? You're a joke dude.. you even surpassed Bellum.. you are officialy the worst joke on the forums.. stop trolling, start playing and after a few years you'll understand what it's all about

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:52:00 - [371] Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 23:53:16 Originally by: Zamolxiss troll Oh man i came to terms with 7shining7one7 and now this tard turns up...
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:54:00 - [372] Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 well i don't get how you can say that pulse outdamage blasters cause they don't.. blasters do FAR more damage.. I can see how you would think that cos of the spikes of dmg but follow the math Faction AM vs faction MF first ok?. Faction AM hit for 1500 for 4.5km, 1500 x 4.5km = 6750 dmg Faction MF hit for 1200 for 15km, 1200 x 15km = 17880 dmg Null hits for 1256 for 11km, 1256 x 11km = 13816 dmg Scorch hits for 959 for 45km, 959 x 11km = 43155 dmg Now Blasters may have the spike of dmg greater than lasers at 4.5km, but that is it while lasers do very high amounts of dmg in close but also vast amounts of dmg out to 45km all in optimal. And dmg spikes within a tiny optimal is not worth squat when your facing such overwhelming optimal firepower. but you're also forgetting the drones.. megathron can field 5 heavy drones.. well it's two different combat styles.. amarrians don't zip around as much as megathrons and hyperions have to.. if they want to use blasters.. one sacrifices high dps for range and more damage over time but less damage AT A TIME.. (amarr) another sacrifices more damage over time for A LOT OF DAMAGE AT A TIME! (gallente) amarr has severe cap and fitting issues that you can't just ignore when talking about this.. and they can't field heavies like gallente can.. gallente can use the drones as initial damage during their mwd'ing approach.. 5 ogre II's f'ing hurt.. and even more so when the neutron II's get within optimal.. hyperion doesn't need heavy drones it just deals sick dps regardless... and the dominix.. well the dominix we know so well.. fearsome ship and those drones hurt like the ****ens with gal bs V.. and it can add to the dmg with rails or blasters.. very versatile too.. and what's amarr got.. ? great tank, more damage over time due to being able to dictate range more.. lower dps.. very little dronage.. fitting issues and cap issues.. and loss of mobility if they want to tank their way through it and keep their cap steady which they need to in order to do proper damage over time due to their lower dps spikes.. cmon dude, can't you see how silly this argument is..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:05:00 - [373] Originally by: 7shining7one7 gallente can use the drones as initial damage during their mwd'ing approach.. 5 ogre II's f'ing hurt 4 with your hype fit bud and ogres aint so fast tbh, 1000ms mwd base i think. Anyway depending on the range, lets say 20km the hype has 4 ogres + falloff for 15.5km, 13km of that in standard overheated web range... The baddon has 2 ogres 2 hammers 1 hob + optimal of scorch = 1000dps for 5km and 2km of 1200 dps and then 8km of standard webbed 1200dps to lay on the hype before it gets into the hypes optimal range. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:09:00 - [374] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 00:15:01 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 00:10:11 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 gallente can use the drones as initial damage during their mwd'ing approach.. 5 ogre II's f'ing hurt 4 with your hype fit bud and ogres aint so fast tbh, 1000ms mwd base i think. Anyway depending on the range, lets say 20km the hype has 4 ogres + falloff for 15.5km, 13km of that in standard overheated web range... The baddon has 2 ogres 2 hammers 1 hob + optimal of scorch = 1000dps for 5km and 2km of 1200 dps and then 8km of standard webbed 1200dps to lay on the hype before it gets into the hypes optimal range. dude the hype can't fit 4 ogres.. it can only fit 3.. it only has 75mb bandwith.. thus it's better to field hammer II's on it really. the full gank hype fit with 1514 dps was using 5x hammer II's. and i don't see how the hype isn't going to close that distance instead of staying just outside it's optimal even if they both web eachother the hype can still get closer.. abaddon tends to be plated up the wazoo to compensate for repping cap, either that or it is filled to the brim with cap modules.. any way you cut it the abaddon is being cut a slim deal with regards to facing blaster boats unless it keeps the distance.. and it can only do that by mwd'ing around.. and cap doesn't last forever nor does it posess enough firepower to do that while wearing down a mwd'ing mega/hype/domi enough to make it go boom.. i know you think that 1000 dps is a whole lot but when you factor in the resists (em/therm).. it's not a whole bloody lot against gallentean boats.. eventhough it looks like dynamite on paper. now if the hype/mega/domi sits still then it probably will melt if given enough time obviously... but who says it's going to. also i added a little bit to my previous post i'd appreciate it if you read it again and re-edit your post to respond.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:12:00 - [375] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 00:13:20 Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 00:12:10 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 00:10:11 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 gallente can use the drones as initial damage during their mwd'ing approach.. 5 ogre II's f'ing hurt 4 with your hype fit bud and ogres aint so fast tbh, 1000ms mwd base i think. Anyway depending on the range, lets say 20km the hype has 4 ogres + falloff for 15.5km, 13km of that in standard overheated web range... The baddon has 2 ogres 2 hammers 1 hob + optimal of scorch = 1000dps for 5km and 2km of 1200 dps and then 8km of standard webbed 1200dps to lay on the hype before it gets into the hypes optimal range. dude the hype can't fit 4 ogres.. it can only fit 3.. it only has 75mb bandwith.. Hype has 100, baddon has 75. So 3 ogres 2 hammers are better. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:14:00 - [376] Originally by: Murina I can see how you would think that cos of the spikes of dmg but follow the math Faction AM vs faction MF first ok?. IL use our pimped fits.. Faction AM hit for 1500 for 4.5km, 1500 x 4.5km = 6750 dmg Faction MF hit for 1200 for 15km, 1200 x 15km = 17880 dmg Null hits for 1256 for 11km, 1256 x 11km = 13816 dmg Scorch hits for 959 for 45km, 959 x 11km = 43155 dmg Now Blasters may have the spike of dmg greater than lasers at 4.5km, but that is it while lasers do very high amounts of dmg in close but also vast amounts of dmg out to 45km all in optimal. And dmg spikes within a tiny optimal is not worth squat when your facing such overwhelming optimal firepower. Is this a joke? O.K. for a second. Follow the math 10 x 10 = 100 +55 = 155 Therefore blasters are overpowered... My math is just as relevant to the question of which weapon is better as your math. Which is to say, not at all.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:16:00 - [377] Originally by: Goumindong troll Go away fool we dont need another troll, jumping in half way through a conversation.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:21:00 - [378] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 00:25:08 Originally by: Murina Hype has 100, baddon has 75. So 3 ogres 2 hammers are better. **** that's right, my bad.. that means the hype goes from 1514 dps with that full gank fit to a whooping 1609 dps.. unbelievable.. and all gallente bs's can fit heavies in a decent manner.. i know you have that 1000-1200 dps abaddon fit that you been talking about.. (never got to see it i think, sigh) but regardless.. i'm guessing you're really pushing the envelope with that much dps on an abaddon while still having 100k ehp.. but 1609 dps.. come on! that's amazing.. i know amarr can do more damage over time if the blasterboat won't mwd to them and if the abaddon runs away keeping the distance but cmon.. 1609 dps!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:21:00 - [379] Edited by: Goumindong on 08/02/2009 00:21:46 Originally by: Murina Originally by: Goumindong troll Go away fool we dont need another troll, jumping in half way through a conversation. Yes, you are plenty for the entire forum. Would you care explaining how ignoring tracking, and time is acceptable to the issue? Oh, and... Megathron w/ railguns /w Aurora 300 dmg x 191km = 57,000 OMG its overpowered compared to both! Nerf Mega's with rails! No, the answer is that "your math" is stupid, incomplete and contextless. It means nothing.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:26:00 - [380] Originally by: 7shining7one7 but you're also forgetting the drones.. megathron can field 5 heavy drones.. 5 heavy drones doing 311 thermal dmg + travel time vs 1000 instant thermal/em dmg + 206 thermal dmg from 2 ogres 2 hammers 1 hob + travel time (hob + hammer are faster as well).

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:29:00 - [381] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 00:37:04 Originally by: Goumindong Megathron w/ railguns /w Aurora 300 dmg x 191km = 57,000 OMG its overpowered compared to both! Nerf Mega's with rails! Rails fit spike moron. And Beams with aurora 205 x 325 = 62525 and i didn't even try hard to boost the dmg..... Originally by: Goumindong Would you care explaining how ignoring tracking NULL = OPTIMAL 11 FALLOFF 16, Tracking on a nuetron hyperion 0.04059 MF = OPTIMAL 15 FALLOFF 10, Tracking on mega pulse baddon 0.04219
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:39:00 - [382] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 00:45:21 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 00:36:16 Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 00:35:34 Originally by: Goumindong Megathron w/ railguns /w Aurora 300 dmg x 191km = 57,000 OMG its overpowered compared to both! Nerf Mega's with rails! Rails fit spike moron. And Beams with aurora 205 x 325 = 62525 and i didn't even try hard to boost the dmg..... Originally by: Goumindong Would you care explaining how ignoring tracking NULL = OPTIMAL 11 FALLOFF 16, Tracking on a nuetron hyperion 0.04059 MF = OPTIMAL 15 FALL OFF 10, Tracking on mega pulse baddon 0.04219 yeah.. but you're also forgetting how the different crystals make you consume more cap, and how the scorch decreases your tracking by 25% and how each of them have very different damage.. and how you have to switch between them quite a few times.. thus your dps will end up varying a bit.. if you can stay outside of range of the blaster boats then you can melt them over time but it's not allways just as simple as scorch, and multifreq.. you neatly picked multifreq as example which is the only charge besides standard which doesn't really affect anything else than range.. that's a bad example imo, try it with scorch instead.. it is more like null.. then you'll see that when you use scorch, your tracking dips down to 0.03164 with max skills.. that changes things a little bit doesn't it? cause now the megapulse is all of a sudden a glorified beam laser.. hence my scepticism with your 15-45km scorch usage suggestion and how it was too easy or whatnot..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:52:00 - [383] Originally by: 7shining7one7 i know you have that 1000-1200 dps abaddon fit that you been talking about.. (never got to see it i think, sigh) but regardless.. i'm guessing you're really pushing the envelope with that much dps on an abaddon while still having 100k ehp.. Dude both fits are balls to the wall sissi dream fits that are just not gonna be used or fitted on TQ, they are totally paper tiger fits we made up for god knows what reason. My personal favorite abaddon fit had 115,295 ehp, 79.8em, 73.8 therm, 69.7 kin, 67.7 ex. Highs 8 mega pulse. Mids 1 t2 scram 1 domination web 1 domination mwd 1 t2 cap injector lows 1 x 1600 plate 1 x dcu2 2x amarr eanm 3 amarr navy heat sinks rigs T2 energy collision accelerator 2 T1 trimarks Drones 2 x ogre 2 2x hammerhead 2 1 hobgoblin 2 Implants(you may know better ones to use cos im new to eft but meh...) 1 squire cr8 1 lancer g2 beta 1 squire cc8 1 gunslinger cx-2 1 lancer g2 epsilon It seemed ok for my first real go on eft but if you can improve it go ahead. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 00:57:00 - [384] NULL = OPTIMAL 11 FALLOFF 16, Tracking on a nuetron hyperion 0.04059 MF = OPTIMAL 15 FALL OFF 10, Tracking on mega pulse baddon 0.04219 Originally by: 7shining7one7 you neatly picked multifreq as example which is the only charge besides standard which doesn't really affect anything else than range.. that's a bad example imo, try it with scorch instead.. it is more like null.. NULL = OPTIMAL 11 FALLOFF 16 MF = OPTIMAL 15 FALL OFF 10 Bud look at the ranges, you do not get much more alike than that, just cos scorch happens to be T2 like null does not make them more alike in effect. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:04:00 - [385] well if you want to see what an abaddon can really do rather than maxing out damage and using implants to do so to a ridiculous degree so that it can push over 1000 dps but falls apart if something just looks at it.. then we gotta look at some more decent fits.. and first you gotta think of cap.. that's the wonderful world of amarr.. cause amarr ships use cap like nobodys business.. most of the crystals except mf standard and scorch causes the turret to use extra cap... which is a serious issue when you fly them.. secondly you gotta look at grid and cpu... you'll find when you loose those implants it's really tough to fit an abaddon properly.. then you ultimately realize that the high dps is just not happening and go for tank instead.. so you fit a couple plates and eanm dc II and skip the triple heatsink you so desired but know is gonna ultimately make you blow up due to lack of tank.. or you can go single rep single plate.. going dual rep on an abaddon is simply not an option, it's a cap hog beyond belief due to it not getting ship bonuses for it so.. what you'll end up with is a lot of cap mods and a lot of tank, and quite moderate dps.. if you are looking for a viable fit that is actually used.. now.. your whole running away from a hype.. if the hype fits a tracking disruptor you're in deep **** and you can forget your pipe dreams about mwd'ing away and scorching him to oblivion.. you'll have to either get within multifreq range, or settle for less dmg with xray or standard.. amarr ain't as wtfbbq as you think they are.. they really aren't..
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:05:00 - [386] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:03:12 Originally by: 7shining7one7 you neatly picked multifreq as example which is the only charge besides standard which doesn't really affect anything else than range.. that's a bad example imo, try it with scorch instead.. it is more like null.. NULL = OPTIMAL 11 FALLOFF 16 MF = OPTIMAL 15 FALL OFF 10 Bud look at the ranges, you do not get much more alike than that, just cos scorch happens to be T2 like null does not make them more alike in effect. Originally by: 7shining7one7 then you'll see that when you use scorch, your tracking dips down to 0.03164 with max skills.. Thats still a crap tonne better than a gank/tank rail hype, its range is 36km optimal 30km falloff and 0.01202 and that is with anitmatter with no tracking penalty. well yeah, but then again.. when you factor in web and the immense dps it can dish out within antimatter range.. then that becomes less of an issue..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:08:00 - [387] Originally by: 7shining7one7 well if you want to see what an abaddon can really do rather than maxing out damage and using implants to do so to a ridiculous degree so that it can push over 1000 dps but falls apart if something just looks at it.. No way my fit was way better than yours lol. My personal favorite abaddon fit had 115,295 ehp, 79.8em, 73.8 therm, 69.7 kin, 67.7 ex. With over 4 mins of cap even with the mwd + everything else running. Your mega fit had less resists 90k ehp and only 3 mins of mwd cap...and no point fitted...
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:09:00 - [388] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:14:56 Originally by: 7shining7one7 well yeah, but then again.. when you factor in web and the immense dps it can dish out within antimatter range.. then that becomes less of an issue.. The dps of anti matter on rails awful and we both have webs while you have over double the rails tracking... Even pimped like you did the blaster setup it does less dps than my pulse/scorch fit and needs pg upgrades just to fit the giuns and t2 collision rig.....let alone a mwd or tank of any sort.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:11:00 - [389] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 01:15:37 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 well yeah, but then again.. when you factor in web and the immense dps it can dish out within antimatter range.. then that becomes less of an issue.. The dps of anti matter on rails awful and we both have webs while you have over double the rails tracking... also factor in a tracking disruptor II set on the baddon.. and you go from 0.03164 to 0.01582.. with scorch.. (if using a tracking speed script) or 22.5 optimal range with scorch if he's using optimal range disruption script.. that's f'ing nasty.. you do that you can fit blasters.. you don't need the rails.. he won't be able to hit you for **** unless he has beams.. he'll have to walk a fine line as he closes the gap and hope he keeps the distance without getting into webbing range.. and obviously the hype pilot will just mwd as fast as he can and float straight into null optimal or maybe even as far as antimatter optimal.. it's really not that hard to mess with an abaddon.. he's got enough to contend with, with only moderate dps, cap issues and lack of mobility..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:17:00 - [390] Originally by: 7shining7one7 also factor in a tracking disruptor II set on the baddon.. and you go from 0.03164 to 0.01582.. with scorch.. (if using a tracking speed script) or 22.5 optimal range with scorch if he's using optimal range disruption script.. that's f'ing nasty.. it's really not that hard to mess with an abaddon.. he's got enough to contend with, with only moderate dps, cap issues and lack of mobility.. Dude you start with more tracking to a TD on the hype if gonna hurt the hype more, and even with the TD on your pulse ship you have more tracking than the rail hype that does not have one on it...

7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:21:00 - [391] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 01:21:27 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:14:56 Originally by: 7shining7one7 well yeah, but then again.. when you factor in web and the immense dps it can dish out within antimatter range.. then that becomes less of an issue.. The dps of anti matter on rails awful and we both have webs while you have over double the rails tracking... Even pimped like you did the blaster setup it does less dps than my pulse/scorch fit and needs pg upgrades just to fit the giuns and t2 collision rig.....let alone a mwd or tank of any sort. i wouldn't say that.. with all 5 hardwirings and 4 heavies it ended up doing 1609dps with 20k armor and 90k ehp.. that's not too shabby.. if it fits a tracking disruptor and a web and let someone else do the pointing you can't dish out damage till it can hurt you back. which means you'd be entering a world of pain pretty quickly. anywho.. let's take a more reasonable 1100 dps hype then.. with a tracking disruptor, mwd, web, dual rep and dual cap injectors.. it'll still smoke you cause of that tracking disruptor.. just 1 tracking disruptor will render scorch completely useless.. either by reducing its tracking to tachyon class or by reducing it's optimal to 22.5km..
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:25:00 - [392] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:26:05 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Murina Originally by: 7shining7one7 well yeah, but then again.. when you factor in web and the immense dps it can dish out within antimatter range.. then that becomes less of an issue.. The dps of anti matter on rails awful and we both have webs while you have over double the rails tracking... Even pimped like you did the blaster setup it does less dps than my pulse/scorch fit and needs pg upgrades just to fit the guns and t2 collision rig.....let alone a mwd or tank of any sort. i wouldn't say that.. with all 5 hardwirings and 4 heavies it ended up doing 1609dps with 20k armor and 90k ehp.. that's not too shabby.. That is your blaster fit not the rail fit. The rail hype fit does way under 1000dps with antimatter has tracking so bad even with antimatter that your pulse with scorch needs to be tracking disrupted to get even close to as bad. And it needs pg modules just fit fit the guns and the dmg rig lol...
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:25:00 - [393] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:21:17 Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:20:17 Originally by: Murina The dps of anti matter on rails awful and we both have webs while you have over double the rails tracking... Even pimped like you did the blaster setup it does less dps than my pulse/scorch fit and needs pg upgrades just to fit the guns and t2 collision rig.....let alone a mwd or tank of any sort. Originally by: 7shining7one7 also factor in a tracking disruptor II set on the baddon.. and you go from 0.03164 to 0.01582.. with scorch.. (if using a tracking speed script) or 22.5 optimal range with scorch if he's using optimal range disruption script.. that's f'ing nasty.. it's really not that hard to mess with an abaddon.. he's got enough to contend with, with only moderate dps, cap issues and lack of mobility.. Dude you start with more tracking so a TD on the rail hype is gonna hurt the hype more, and even with the TD on your pulse ship you have almost the same tracking as the rail hype that does not have a TD on it and is using non penalized ammo... well we're talking blaster setup, so the tracking disruptor is for the approach while you're mwd'ing you're denying the abaddon from dealing you damage unless it wants to meet you half way.. forget about the rail you don't need it then.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:32:00 - [394] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:32:22 Originally by: 7shining7one7 well we're talking blaster setup, so the tracking disruptor is for the approach while you're mwd'ing you're denying the abaddon from dealing you damage unless it wants to meet you half way.. forget about the rail you don't need it then. So now the abaddon needs to be TD'd on your approach to keep the dmg down?. Are we in a smallish ship (BCish) that can take advantage of the TD cos a BS will take ages to get close if its keeping its transversal high instead of just burning?.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 01:55:00 - [395] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 01:56:30 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 01:32:22 Originally by: 7shining7one7 well we're talking blaster setup, so the tracking disruptor is for the approach while you're mwd'ing you're denying the abaddon from dealing you damage unless it wants to meet you half way.. forget about the rail you don't need it then. So now the abaddon needs to be TD'd on your approach to keep the dmg down?. Are we in a smallish ship (BCish) that can take advantage of the TD cos a BS will take ages to get close if its keeping its transversal high instead of just burning?. what's the matter with just burning and reducing the optimal rendering scorch pretty useless till you get there.. i guess the point is amarr is far from overpowered.. if range seems to be your main issue then negate it..
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:09:00 - [396] Edited by: fuxinos on 08/02/2009 02:10:58 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/02/2009 13:47:33 Originally by: fuxinos But will CCP do all that, just to give 2 Races longrange capability, even if their not supposed to have longrange ships? Who says they are not supposed to have long range ships?, nobody decides that and if they do they can easily change their minds as they did when they gave the apoc a range bonus. Its odd how ppl say these available "ranges" and "roles" are set in stone AFTER their race ships get the buff.... Doesnt matter, the point is still up. I would expect you to be the first who says "shut up Caldariwhiner" if someone says Caldari have no shortrange ship.... Just get it, Gallente is all about shortrange like Caldari is damn all about long range... Cant you even see how the races are supposed to counter each other? If you demaned a Gallente longrangeship, i demaned a Caldari shortrangeship...
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:10:00 - [397] Just thought I could put up some other graphs: Megathron in red, Geddon in green, Abaddon in blue, Hyperion in cyan. All have: 3 damage mods faction close range ammo max skills full gank drone loadout (mega/geddon 5 ogre, hype 4 ogre, abaddon 2/2/1 h/m/l thermal). no implants no weapon rigs Target is a myrmidon, standard tank lows, 0 m/s transversal, range marker is placed on point where gallente dps first drops below amarr dps. As above but with null/scorch loaded, range marker is placed on point where gallente dps first drops below amarr dps. With transversal ~200m/s As first graph (faction ammo), but with the transversal maxed, range marker is placed on point of peak dps from megathron (hyperion's lack of a tracking bonus really hinders it here, if you add a tracking comp it will do better damage than the amarr ships out to about 24km). As 2nd graph (null/scorch), but with transversal maxed, range marker is placed on point of peak dps from megathron (hyperion's lack of a tracking bonus really hinders it here, if you add a tracking comp it will do better damage than the amarr ships out to about 29km). As is obvious from these graphs, Gallente have absolute damage superiority inside 10km, and when using long range ammo, have damage superiority upto around 18km. When transversal is introduced the dps applied starts to go heavily in favour of the high tracking blasters on the megathron, out to about 25 km with close range faction ammo, and 32km with t2 long range ammo. If the Hyperion was fit with a tracking computer the dps applied would exceed amarr ships out to 24 and 29 km respectively. Using hybrid ambit rigs would increase this superiority range further, but all of these fits are trimarked for realism.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:19:00 - [398] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 02:19:42 well.. not much needs saying after that
Arcelian	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:58:00 - [399] Who posted saying crystals affect tracking? I know I read that somewhere. And lasers pwn you infidels, get used to it. har har.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.02.08 03:03:00 - [400] Originally by: Captator With transversal ~200m/s That's with about double of that, with BS going full tilt in one direction and the BC likewise in the other (perhaps with a speed module on?). Please correct for that. -- Gradient forum

Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.02.08 04:02:00 - [401] -why are they going side by side in opposite directions? -webs exist. don't just give me that 10km and less webbed crap. nearly all PvP is gang related and thus almost any target will be double webbed (if not more) -no one uses null because swapping back and fourth between null and navy AM during a fight is extremely impractical. scorch can be switched to instantly. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 04:10:00 - [402] Originally by: Arcelian Who posted saying crystals affect tracking? I know I read that somewhere. And lasers pwn you infidels, get used to it. har har. scorch has a 0.75x tracking multiplier.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.08 06:03:00 - [403] Originally by: Murina And Beams with aurora 205 x 325 = 62525 and i didn't even try hard to boost the dmg..... NULL = OPTIMAL 11 FALLOFF 16, Tracking on a nuetron hyperion 0.04059 MF = OPTIMAL 15 FALLOFF 10, Tracking on mega pulse baddon 0.04219 You still don't understand the complaint do you?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:06:00 - [404] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Murina NULL = OPTIMAL 11 FALLOFF 16, Tracking on a nuetron hyperion 0.04059 MF = OPTIMAL 15 FALLOFF 10, Tracking on mega pulse baddon 0.04219 You still don't understand the complaint do you? Well it seems to me that you want ppl to match ammo by tracking penalty instead of the comparative range they give their systems... Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:16:00 - [405] Originally by: Captator As is obvious from these graphs, Gallente have absolute damage superiority inside 10km, and when using long range ammo, have damage superiority upto around 18km. Dude your graphs are not very good and you cannot say that blasters have dmg superiority out to 18km cos they do not unless amarr are using the wrong ammo. Your null/scorch range marker is right but why would the amarr ship use scorch under 15km?, we both know they would not they would use MF and it out damages null by far at 15km. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:31:00 - [406] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 10:34:44 Originally by: Letifer Deus -why are they going side by side in opposite directions? So it makes lasers look worse than they are, its the same reason he is using scorch vs null comparisons instead on MF vs null even tough MF gives a very similar optimal/fall off compared to null. Originally by: Letifer Deus -webs exist. don't just give me that 10km and less webbed crap. nearly all PvP is gang related and thus almost any target will be double webbed (if not more) 13km overheated bud, and you are right what you say although these guys only pitch the "amarr are gang ships" line when it suits their purposes and on this occasion it does not. Originally by: Letifer Deus -no one uses null because swapping back and fourth between null and navy AM during a fight is extremely impractical. scorch can be switched to instantly. Null is used when you are shooting at summat over 9-10km but MF is much better at that range, a point that was avoided. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal Originally by: NightmareX Yes i support 7shining7one7 in EVERY ing way
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:37:00 - [407] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 10:40:57 Captator, it would also be nice to know the exact fits on all ships as 3 mag stab mega is not very descriptive.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:48:00 - [408] Originally by: 7shining7one7 what's the matter with just burning and reducing the optimal rendering scorch pretty useless till you get there.. i guess the point is amarr is far from overpowered.. if range seems to be your main issue then negate it.. Bud if you need the amarr BS to be tracking disrupted just to stand a chance against it: 1. That shows its to powerful especially if it needs ewar used on it to give you a chance. 2. Claiming that gallente should "just fit rails" is also blown out of the water as the TD makes pulse have similar tracking to rails with antimatter..
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:55:00 - [409] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 08/02/2009 10:55:56 [Abaddon, Golden Castle] Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Amarr Navy Large Armor Repairer Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II ECCM - Radar II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 dps 442 without drones. dps 652 with drones. ehp 106k, 82.7%, 77.5%, 74%, 72.3% 52km scorch range with optimal script. cap stable at 52%.. removing any cap module will make the abaddon loose its cap stability. as you can clearly tell... active tanking with just 1 frigging repper whilst attempting to fit anything but cap mods in the mids, ruins the abaddons cap to such a degree that you need 4 cap mods and 3 cap rigs just to make it cap stable.. so what are the abaddons options.. plate itself up the wazoo.. yielding great tankage but similarly poor dps but allowing more versatility in the midslots or.. going gank with a moderate tank and cap for as long as it has cap boosters (you can't make the gank fit cap stable without cap boosters) and that severely limits its mid slot options.. or.. going with "full gank" (really not feasible on an abaddon tbqh) and reaching 1000/1200 dps but ending up a paper tiger in the process since it tank will crumble so darn easily.. thus a feasible abaddon fit will end up around 6-800 dps.. which is not a whole lot.. take it as you will..
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:17:00 - [410] Originally by: Gierling Amarr are the only race that get a dedicated long range fleet gun incomparable to the other races. Can we please get an equivelant for the other races already. Say a 600mm railgun and 1500mm arty. Neutron blasters.

Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:25:00 - [411] Edited by: Murina on 08/02/2009 11:26:26 Dude why are you fitting a single repper?. Anyway this is a pure and standard T2 setup with a very cheap cpu implant: HIGHS 8 x mega pulse. MIDS 1 x mwd 1 x web 1 x point 1 x heavy cap booster LOWS 3 x heat sinks 2 x plates (or 1 plate and 2 eanm my preferred fit tbh) 1 x eanm 1 x dcu RIGS 1 x T1 dmg rig 2 x T1 trimarks Drones 2 x ogres 2 x hammers 1 x hobs 645ms max speed. cap stable w/o mwd running 960dps with MF 0-15+km 835dps with scorch 0-45km+ 113,618 ehp 72.5%em, 64.3%therm, 58.8%kin, 56.1%ex OR 105,815 ehp 78.3 em, 71.8therm, 67.4kin, 65.2 ex A nice setup it seems although could benefit from a few very cheep implants but i left them off to keep costs down, also in a good gang setup the tackle can be swapped out for cap mods.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:44:00 - [412] it was to illustrate the immense cap issues on an abaddon, which rules out active repping unless you want to fit cap mods all over the place.. sure you can go full plate (as i suggested above as the most viable option for an abaddon) and throw on a heavy cap booster and then pretend like you have infinite charges and that it's fine and not going to matter how horrible the abaddons cap management is.. but when you fly it, it might not be that simple. let's see how many charges you can have in your can in the cargohold and then figure out the maximum amount of cap you can suck out of it, cause when you run out, you will be absolutely dead in the water.. it's allways easy to make a gank fit and then just throw on 1 or maybe 2 cap boosters to make it all look like it all plays nicely and that there's no issues.. and then say omg.. dps etc.. that's exactly what i did with the 1609 dps hyperion.. oh wait.. it was actually cap stable without cap boosters.. but that's fair right cause i mean amarr dps n fittings are clearly so uber that they can will their way through their cap issues if you just fit enough gank so that the dps looks awesome.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:56:00 - [413] Originally by: 7shining7one7 it was to illustrate the immense cap issues on an abaddon, which rules out active repping unless you want to fit cap mods all over the place.. So you cannot for a local rep unless you have lots of cap mods or a booster, well that applies to gallente as well but although not quite as much. Originally by: 7shining7one7 that's exactly what i did with the 1609 dps hyperion.. oh wait.. it was actually cap stable without cap boosters.. but that's fair right It was cap stable without the mwd running but so was my abaddon, with the mwd running you had 3 minutes of cap while i had over 4 on the abaddon. Originally by: 7shining7one7 let's see how many charges you can have in your can in the cargohold and then figure out the maximum amount of cap you can suck out of it, cause when you run out, you will be absolutely dead in the water.. It was a very very long time without the mwd running and with the mwd running my cap lasted longer than your Hyperion's did bud. Mostly cos you fitted the hype poorly and for sheer dps while ignoring practicalities. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal