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[EBANK] Account Freeze

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Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.11.09 18:30:00 - [1051] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha This worked very well in RL in some very muddy affair called "Ustica Massacre", as it managed to keep many people out of jail. Wow, never heard of that. Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I think EBank should endorse its current employees and bod members to buy up deposits. There is no sort of conflicts of interests at all. This would definitely be an entirely moral and fair thing to do. I endorse this practice and am glad to see AC155, the pillar of morality and integrity that he is, to continue it. While this sounds like a good idea, it is very important that they release information about their current financial situation BEFORE they start buying back deposits. Bank insiders buying back deposits based on non-public information is a very, very bad idea. Long post, so skip it if you have no attention spa...already lost them. In the US revolutionary war the fledging US government paid their soldiers in 'script', basically IOUs to be paid back at a future date. Except they weren't paid back. A decade goes buy and the rabble continues to rabble about the money the government owes them but will not pay them when some enterprising bankers get a great idea. The bankers start buying the script for 1/10th is face value from the former soldiers and since getting something is better than nothing, the soldiers sell the script to the bankers. After a few more years, and once the bankers have bought most of the script that is thought to have been issued, the bankers begin petitioning the government to repay the debt to the veterans of the revolutionary war. The bankers make it a huge patriotic political issue, even though almost no veterans now own that script. The government finally capitulates, and pays off all those old IOUs at full face value... to the bankers who now hold them. Which is why anyone with even a chance of having insider knowledge buying EBANK debt seems so hinky. If they are buying, it probably means it has a greater value than whatever is being offered. And the longer we go without an announcement the more likely account holders are to sell off their accounts at a loss, which makes the delay seem even more nefarious. Mind you, I could care less. I don't have any money in EBANK, and I am using all the ISK I have with none to spare to purchase EBANK accounts.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 18:41:00 - [1052] Quote: Wow, never heard of that. Imagine being a relative of one of a whole airplane worth of people. One day it goes poof. Disappeared. For years, years, years and more years it's been covered, hidden, politics, military, everyone would just stay off it or decline to even comment on it. The victims' relatives tried so much for so long, always beating against the rubber wall. The same technique, once again, has been effectuvely used again for other shady homicides beginning with "Ilaria Alpi", a controversial affair nosing journalist who was following Onu's "Operation Hope". Once again, the rubber wall. No answer. No research. Apparent investigations engineered to achieve nothing. And so on and on. Once again, secret services actively disguising tracks. I could go on for ... years. My country is somewhat specialized at that. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:00:00 - [1053] Originally by: Dzil Use alts, fools :P I am, that's why I posted my offer with cosmoray. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:01:00 - [1054] RAYY!!! have u ver look at my request for bank loan ? i need to pay off previous lottery to get my reputation back to get the lottery going again for income ! Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:10:00 - [1055] Originally by: FlameWarrior RAYY!!! have u ver look at my request for bank loan ? i need to pay off previous lottery to get my reputation back to get the lottery going again for income ! Detail your collateral and your valuation of it in an EVEMail to me and we can go from there. Please remember your collateral needs to exceed the loan amount in value. And as a teaser of what is contained in the next announcement, we'll allow you to use 30% of your account value as collateral, but only for up to 20% of the loan amount. That means you still need to supply at least 80% of the loan in collateral, but the remaining 20% can be made up from account ISK, as long as it doesn't exceed 30% of the account value. Simple, eh? That was one of OZ's brain farts. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:21:00 - [1056] Edited by: Leneerra on 09/11/2009 19:21:44 Originally by: Ji Sama All we can do is being patient, i am personally looking forward to buying up cheap EBANK isk :D So how much are you offering?
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:36:00 - [1057] ray u r offline !! how can i contact u Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:39:00 - [1058] Originally by: Ray McCormack *Detail your collateral and your valuation of it in an EVEMail* to me and we can go from there. Please remember your collateral needs to exceed the loan amount in value.** Titan BPC Auction Thread
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.09 20:00:00 - [1059] Originally by: FlameWarrior ray u r offline !! how can i contact u FlameWarrior, if you have collateral to take out a loan, there are several places you can do so. Your billion+ isk is gone sir.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.09 20:20:00 - [1060] Originally by: Leneerra Edited by: Leneerra on 09/11/2009 19:21:44 Originally by: Ji Sama All we can do is being patient, i am personally looking forward to buying up cheap EBANK isk :D So how much are you offering? need to work it out exactly how much, but around 20% would be a fair offer :)

Kitchi Manitou	Posted - 2009.11.09 20:33:00 - [1061] RAY, congrates. From what I'm reading yu are restoring the confidence in EBANK, I see offers to buy account for 20% to 30%. This is a good sign. I just wanted to say if you post a plan, will it be posted on the EBank web site?
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.09 21:02:00 - [1062] Edited by: Mahke on 09/11/2009 21:02:30 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: FlameWarrior RAYY!!! have u ver look at my request for bank loan ? i need to pay off previous lottery to get my reputation back to get the lottery going again for income ! Detail your collateral and your valuation of it in an EVEMail to me and we can go from there. Please remember your collateral needs to exceed the loan amount in value. And as a teaser of what is contained in the next announcement, we'll allow you to use 30% of your account value as collateral, but only for up to 20% of the loan amount. That means you still need to supply at least 80% of the loan in collateral, but the remaining 20% can be made up from account ISK, as long as it doesn't exceed 30% of the account value. Simple, eh? That was one of OZ's brain farts. If you want this to actually work you'll have to accept a pitiful interest rate: a decent 5% roi, 80% collaterized loan could fill up in minutes or hours to the public, and a 4% loan would probably fill up eventually if it was well thought-out and not too huge. And heck, the whole nearly-fully-collaterized loan is only a recent phenomenon because so many people have giant piles of stuff sitting around for patch-speculative and related reasons they can put up for collateral while still potentially profiting from (because they're speculating with that capital, not investing it). Highly collaterized loans will cease to make sense again to the people asking for one again once dominion comes out and the markets settle (since if the collateral is doing nothing, why not just liquify it and use it instead of paying interest on a loan). tl;dr: if you expect this to be well received, be ready to accept absolutely miniscule interest on the potential loans you are talking about to compete with what the general public will be willing to do for on 80% collaterized debt.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.09 21:06:00 - [1063] EBANK already deos collateralized loans. At present over 300B worth. Won't make a big difference at all. All it means is that people can release a little bit of equity, but they have to have substantial assets to release it. My prediction, not many takers.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.09 21:12:00 - [1064] Edited by: Mahke on 09/11/2009 21:12:47 Originally by: cosmoray EBANK already deos collateralized loans. At present over 300B worth. This surprises me. Unless the collateral is small as a percent of the loan (in which case giving some collateral makes sense), they are basically making a contract with EBANK to buy the collateral back from them at X point in time after having paid interest on it in the meanwhile. There is no reason at all to do this unless you believe that the underlying value of the collateral will increase at a higher rate than interest.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.09 23:00:00 - [1065] Ray, If someone was to excercize the option to use at most 30% of their listed account value to function as 20% of the collateral of a new loan (80% colateralized trough other means), and that loan is defaulted on. Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%?
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.10 00:10:00 - [1066] Originally by: Leneerra Ray, If someone was to excercize the option to use at most 30% of their listed account value to function as 20% of the collateral of a new loan (80% colateralized trough other means), and that loan is defaulted on. Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%? There's a divide by zero joke in here somewhere, I'm sure of it. An interesting question though. Complicated by the hypothetical situation of someone trying to game the face value through intentional default. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.10 00:25:00 - [1067] Not realy intrested in defaulting, but I am intrested in discovering (or getting them to admit) how ebank values our accountholdings at this time. And things do not add up otherwise, if only 30% of the account would be lost in a default, then why the 30% limit for collaterals, the 80/20 division should cover it already. Also, someone mentioned a possible purchase offer at 30% for ebank isk, care to point me in that direction?
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.10 03:36:00 - [1068] Edited by: Tiberizzle on 10/11/2009 03:44:01 You could look at a 30% account balance purchase as giving 7 to 3 odds that EBank will never pay it out, either due to their incapability or unwillingness. It is pretty obvious that both factors are significant in considering the risk: there is little history to EBank other than ineptitude and theft. Being as the buy offers have decreased monotonically over the evolution of the scandal, I think it's safe to say that the risk is currently underestimated. Given the rapid rate of decline for the buy offers, I would go so far as to say that 30% account balance is much greater than the equilibrium price, and that the risk is grossly underestimated. A major factor to keep in mind is that, assuming that they are not scammers, their own numbers indicate thus far a failure to profit over just the insultingly low interest payments. Could they fix the numerious ISK leaks? Perhaps. Could they find something incredibly profitable and low risk to do with a trillion ISK? Perhaps. Are they going to be able to achieve both objectives simultaneously? Perhaps, perhaps, but I think it's more likely they'll continue playing banker until they've eroded so much of the deposits that there isn't any point in liquidating. With their history, trends in the account purchase bids, and assuming that continue to refuse liquidation, it seems to me that frozen EBank deposits are worth less ~~than 1% of account value, 'cause it's a ****ing long shot baby~~ Good luck, suckers.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 05:07:00 - [1069] Originally by: Leneerra Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%? 100%. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 05:14:00 - [1070] Originally by: Leneerra Not realy intrested in defaulting, but I am intrested in discovering (or getting them to admit) how ebank values our accountholdings at this time. That's no secret, you could have just asked straight out and I would have answered. We value them at 10% below our current asset holdings, which is around 40.33% of equity, hence the 30% offer. We're good at sums, no? Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah

Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.10 05:46:00 - [1071] Originally by: Ray McCormack That's no secret, you could have just asked straight out and I would have answered. Funniest joke I've heard all day.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.10 06:51:00 - [1072] Ray, Seeing that asking for deadlines or dates is pretty useless, and following this thread is mostly for entertainment value only... So I think the coolest feature you could implement at ebank would be: Mailing accountholders when their assets are once more availeble for withdrawal. Or perhaps a mailing list we can subscribe to for significan upodates (should they occur) Will you implement these feature? that way I will be able to ignore ebank and still be certain to get some of my isk back once it finally becomes availeble. I'd still be able to visit these treads for entertainment, but at least there would be less hope (very hard to eradicate, but I am impressed with your progress in this) and less frustration to go with it.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:23:00 - [1073] Sure, we'll do that for major updates, as has been done in the past. Just make sure your email address is correct on your account details. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.10 14:53:00 - [1074] hmmm i m not selling my account , n second i m waiting to get the loan asap plz! due to the inefficient and ineffectiveness of eve bank, i have stopped my lottery. I am now needed the isk to pay out my previous lottery! Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 15:05:00 - [1075] Edited by: Kalrand on 10/11/2009 15:05:42 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Leneerra Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%? 100%. In that case they would be collateralize 20% of their loan, with 100% of their balance, but you would only let them use up to 30% of their balance in this manner, correct? Originally by: FlameWarrior hmmm i m not selling my account , n second i m waiting to get the loan asap plz! due to the inefficient and ineffectiveness of eve bank, i have stopped my lottery. I am now needed the isk to pay out my previous lottery! You really ought to just give up.
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.10 15:58:00 - [1076] Quote: If you want this to actually work you'll have to accept a pitiful interest rate: a decent 5% roi, 80% collaterized loan could fill up in minutes or hours to the public, and a 4% loan would probably fill up eventually if it was well thought-out and not too huge. So, why not offer 3%, with the pockets to fulfill those larger loan needs? 3% monthly may be low by EVE standards, but it's still a healthy chunk of money. 36% per year just by simple interest, more if it's being compounded rather than paid off monthly. Collateral based loans should be "pitifully low" compared to unsecured loans, especially in EVE. People put their money in a bank to be safe. If they wanted high risk, they'd independently invest, or invest in a mutual fund that claimed to be high risk. I don't think collateralized loans are going to magically fill the debt in ebank's coffers, but it is a good sign they are attempting to return to some kind of business norm. A bank frozen and not offering any services is either making no profit at all, or making profit in very non traditional bank ways. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.10 16:08:00 - [1077] EBANK are offering to release 20% of account balance via a loan mechanism. My offer is to purchase entire accounts at 20% of value (no loan required), and for those that saw 30% that was from Proton Power and has been withdrawn. People will have to decide whether they want out or not. note: Once I see EBANK's updated report I reserve the right to change that offer UP or DOWN. 20% is on the table NOW, it may not be for long.
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.11.10 16:34:00 - [1078] Originally by: cosmoray EBANK are offering to release 20% of account balance via a loan mechanism. My offer is to purchase entire accounts at 20% of value (no loan required), and for those that saw 30% that was from Proton Power and has been withdrawn. People will have to decide whether they want out or not. note: Once I see EBANK's updated report I reserve the right to change that offer UP or DOWN. 20% is on the table NOW, it may not be for long. which imho is a really good offer. the day ebank announced account freeze i toyed with the same thought, even put up an ad in sell orders, but took it down due to my own risk assesment. atm i personally wouldnt offer more than 5%, but maybe you have more trust in them than i do.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 17:02:00 - [1079] Originally by: Julian Koll Originally by: cosmoray EBANK are offering to release 20% of account balance via a loan mechanism. My offer is to purchase entire accounts at 20% of value (no loan required), and for those that saw 30% that was from Proton Power and has been withdrawn. People will have to decide whether they want out or not. note: Once I see EBANK's updated report I reserve the right to change that offer UP or DOWN. 20% is on the table NOW, it may not be for long. which imho is a really good offer. the day ebank announced account freeze i toyed with the same thought, even put up an ad in sell orders, but took it down due to my own risk assesment. atm i personally wouldnt offer more than 5%, but maybe you have more trust in them than i do. Mine was 5.4%. And that was entirely driven by my required IRR of transactions, my cost of funds, and my estimated length of time to recovery. I didn't even bother with trying to estimate the probability that the funds don't get paid back.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 17:46:00 - [1080] Originally by: Kalrand In that case they would be collateralize 20% of their loan, with 100% of their balance, but you would only let them use up to 30% of their balance in this manner, correct? Yes. It's not meant to be an attractive opportunity, or a method to liquidate your investment. It's simply a means whereby account holders can gain some sort of use out of their capital without selling our liquidating their account. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah



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