Damn near everything in EVE is balanced around a few very simple ideas. The more risk you take, the more effort involved, and the more people needed to acheive soemthing, the more you are rewarded. Except for industry. Indusrialists are not rewarded for joining a corporatin and using palyer built structures, anyone saying otherwise are lying. If you're in a player run corp, using player built structures to do industry, you are penalized; that is a FACT.

Who's saying things need to be restricted?

And are you really saying that people won't build T1 items in high sec if the stations cost more to use, lines were reduced slightly, and max refine rate was reduced?

Because that would be silly.

Can you build things significantly cheaper in a PoS?
Can you put the things your PoS builds on the market from your PoS?

Do you think there is some sort of "progression" expected as an industrialist. Like doing the next raid in another MMO, do you think that as an industrialist you're ultimately expected to end up building titans? EVE doesn't work that way for me.

Fine, how about remove T2 production from NPC stations. In order to do any T2 and up production you have to do it in a player run structure.

Don't touch slots.
Don't touch refine rates.
Do nothing but remove T2 production from high sec NPC stations.

Quite honestly that's what it comes down to, T2 production. T2 production is the only the only form of "progression" for an industrialist. Cap production up is for those people that want to specialize in something that requires more teamwork to do. T2 production is what every single industrialist should be working towards doing.

And every single character that is not in an NPC corp, working from high sec NPC stations, is at a disadvantage when it comes to T2 production.

I do not care if it's cheaper to do it in high sec. I only care that it's cheapest to do it in an undeccable corporation, working out of a station that you can't lose access too. If high sec is the cheapest place to do T2 production, it should require a player run structure.

The ideas I support would be good for everyone. To be the "best" you would only have to join a player run corp, but you would still be able to make craptons of ISK doing in an NPC station, as a member of an NPC corp.

Removing T2 production from NPC stations would be horrible.

I don't think EvE is balanced like that (not saying it's wrong or right).
I.e. hi sec PI done right can rival way more risky and time consuming operations including missioning.
T2 production too.

What you "think" is irrelevant, because CCP themselves have said exactly that.

More-over, itt's common sense.

What you "think" is irrelevant, because CCP themselves have said exactly that.

More-over, itt's common sense.

I "think" as in "from looking at how you can earn income in practice".

Example:

I just noticed I have made 622M today with 3 orders. I logged on once this morning, for 5 minutes. That's :reward vs effort: the EvE way.

So, I'll leave you reading what CCP "says" and wondering why it's not true, while I'll do what *earns* and won't wonder why it's true.

Which of the two behaviors is more adaptive and "sandboxy"?

Actually, it's the first reasonable suggestion for nerfing highsec industry I've heard this entire thread.

Basic highsec assembly lines are cheap and plentiful, but they should only be able to handle common (T1) goods. To do T2 or better production you need specialized services that aren't available readily from the NPC corporations.

"something isn't working, therefor it's intended"

You do understand that they are going to nerf high sec industry, don't you?

Are you not paying attention to the things the devs write?

In many respects, it is. Loot's better in null. Minerals in null include some stuff that you can never never never mine in hisec, ever. And, of course, you get those shinies that you insist aren't worth it but your bosses eat up the majority of your production capability to build.

Not to mention that YOU control access to all those goodies, and can keep everyone else out while you get 'em.

As a side note - It's boring in null? That's a quality of what you're doing there. Building an empire's fun - battles everywhere, guts and gore, fighting off the hordes at the gate. RUNNING an empire at peace - that's boring as all get out. Administrative details. Spreadsheets. Some poor ******* has to go guard the gate every now and then, or patrol the road. Some others have got to make sure the rest are building stuff the way they should be. There is a reason politicians and bureaucrats are wired differently from 'normal' people, and why civs and soldiers get along like oil and water. Your alliances are too large and cover too much ground to fight anyone other than another alliance your size, and neither side wants to gamble it all away.

I guess that's what I get for being a smart ass.

You guys do understand that that would mean you can only do T2 production while in a corp that can be wardecced, from a PoS in high sec, or in a station in a system where there is no CONCORD?

That sounds better to you than just reducing the refine rates in NPC stations, lowing the number of available lines in a station, and incresing line costs in NPC stations.

You think all of that would be harder for the NPC corp guy then losing the ability to produce T2 items?



I really am impressed.

Where? That outdated link posted above or something else?

I pay attention to what the devs do, actually. Writing is cheap and their plans tend to fizzle (see Dominion, FW "Forex", WiS...)

It's a change that can be justified with both in-game and out-of-game logic.

T2 production already depends heavily on POS access for research lines, so the people most heavily engaged in it already know what to do.

It doesn't have an impact on newer players at all.

It gives a reason to use several POS modules that are currently rarely deployed.

What's not to like?

When pretty much everyone agrees that something needs to be done, you insist that CCP won't deliver on the balance improvements when it comes to S&I.

Edit: And really? You're not an industry guy?
While I do nothing but that, managing more than 200 market orders, 90% of which I build myself. YOU who don't actually do industry, knows better how well the game is balanced.

I'm sure you do.

How would moving T2 production out of npc stations affect the rest of the economy? It's all well and good to make a suggestion that sounds fair, but I can just feel the null corps salivating over the prospect of owning both the materials and ability to produce all t2 items/ships in the game. Oh yes high sec, please give us all T2 production! I'm sure that sounds awesome. But until I see some numbers on this I'm not signing off on moving all T2 production out of high sec forever. Virtually no one buys or uses t1 merchandise once they've been in the game a few months. High sec industry will be relegated to cap booster and shuttle production.

YK

Nothing honestly.

Sounds perfect to me.


It sounds more extreme to me than just changing the stations a little.
I would expect people to be much more apposd to not being able to do T2 production in an NPC station.

Well considering I have recently mined, invented and then delivered a Vargur, a JF, 2 freighters, 20 blockade runners, a dozen Macks, 20 cheetahs, 30 med shield extenders and have 100B or so in BPOs, plus I have multiple Orca boosted mining fleets I might consider myself an industry guy... but I prefer trading so I consider myself a trader.

As non industrial guy, I am not going to lose sleep in the night over it.

One of these two statements isn't true, you pick and let me know please.

The call isn't to nerf Highsec, the call is to make most of Nullsec actually worth a damn.

It's a change that can be justified with both in-game and out-of-game logic.

T2 production already depends heavily on POS access for research lines, so the people most heavily engaged in it already know what to do.

It doesn't have an impact on newer players at all.

It gives a reason to use several POS modules that are currently rarely deployed.

What's not to like?

- Non industrial guy = I am not specialized into it (like an one trick pony) and my income does not rely on it. Does not mean I don't do it or don't know it or don't earn ISK out of it. Does not even mean I don't care about it.

- I am not going to lose sleep in the night over it: true for the whole EvE (for me), true because what they say is not necessarily what they do, true because my care for a game is so minor vs my other RL things.

I was under the impression that it was possible to get higher refine rates in High sec stations, with just skills, than is possible in null sec.

I just don't know many people that do capital and T2 battleship production and invention that don't consider themselves industrialists.

I was under the impression that it was possible to get higher refine rates in High sec stations, with just skills, than is possible in null sec.

The house always takes a cut, unless your standing is up to 6.7.

You can get perfect refining, but you have to work a little for it.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_mining covers it all under the refining section, though it only talks about the 6.7 standing you need for perfect refining, not the tax you pay when it's below that.

It also mentions that you can get perfect refining at outposts, either with improvements to make them equivalent to NPC stations or with perfect skills and an industry implant, though the station owner gets to set whatever tax rate they like so if you aren't the station owner *you* will never see that perfect refining rate.