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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 39 post(s) |
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
40
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Posted - 2013.02.08 12:38:00 -
[451] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. As I neared the last page of the threadnaught (yes I read the whole thing) I was wondering if there would be something really good at the end. There was and thank you Ytterbium for getting that to us pretty darn quick. Of course this opens up a whole new round of minmax scenarios but the thread is already too cluttered so I won't go there right now. EVEMon skillplan day here I come. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
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Posted - 2013.02.08 12:45:00 -
[452] - Quote
Good day,
with everything else on my mind being stated already, I would like to point your attention to the prereq of Industry V for Mining Barges.
If I'd ever decide to skill for them in order to mine, does not mean I would also like to get into production. E.g. I'd rather be able to refine my own stuff and hence in my view a prereq of Refining 5 would fit better into that list then Industry will ever be.
I would even go as far as also removing the skill Industry 1 as prereq for Refining as an added bonus to the new specialization initiative.
Alternatively I'd even rather train spaceship command to 5 or something in that vein, than being forced to skill something I would not ever need to fly that ship effectively.
Thanks for your advertency.
Savira Terrant |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
554
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:46:00 -
[453] - Quote
The changes look very good .. some tweaks may have to be done but over all it looks very promising. Good work.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts.
124
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Posted - 2013.02.08 12:47:00 -
[454] - Quote
Not that I'm complaining, if I understand right, BUT:
If I Can fly the Nighthawk comand ship but not the vulture, due to their tetiary skills.
after the change those skill are removed, I can fly both because I have Caldari Battlecruiser 5 and Comand Ships 1 (being the primary and secondary skill requirement)
although I dont have all the warfare skills.
In wich case I'm actualy allowed to fly a 4 ships I wasn't able to fly beore the change.
Corect? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
824
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:51:00 -
[455] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Good news, everything else would have been really stupid We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Malcanis - CSM 8 |
James1122
Red Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:52:00 -
[456] - Quote
James1122 wrote:Hi,
The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.
My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?
Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.
Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time) Two Step for CSM |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
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Posted - 2013.02.08 12:56:00 -
[457] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:Almost one year ago, CCP Ytterbium announced plans to split the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills into racial equivalents for each of the factions. This change will go through in the expansion planned for this summer and Ytterbium has penned all of the details into one dev blog. You can read it all here. Please remember that if you can fly it before the split, you can fly it after. This applies to all of the listed changes. We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread. Ok i see some hole in case of skill reimbursement. This char: I fly electronic attack ships, and use them ... but i dont have Long Range Targeting LvL 5 - other skills where more important. So if i fly this now - will i get Long Range Targeting LvL 5 ?
No , you wont. You will still be able to fly the ship but not train the ship skill. Best to train it to V now and you wont have any issues. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3910
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Posted - 2013.02.08 12:58:00 -
[458] - Quote
James1122 wrote:James1122 wrote:Hi,
The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.
My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?
Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.
Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time)
Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
341
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Posted - 2013.02.08 12:59:00 -
[459] - Quote
James1122 wrote:Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time)
It was written (by a dev) that you would have to check and upgrade your clone accordingly at your own cost. Try search for it... |
Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
17
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Posted - 2013.02.08 13:08:00 -
[460] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Can we give some free SP to people who read the whole devblog or at least one or two comments before posting?
The level of RTFDB (read the dev blog) fail in this comment thread is epic. I know what you mean. Though, even if they did decide they would actually do this, how would they know who read it first? ;) Actually, I think it would be hilarious if they give everyone who evidently read it 1 skill point. XD |
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James1122
Red Federation
77
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Posted - 2013.02.08 13:10:00 -
[461] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:James1122 wrote:James1122 wrote:Hi,
The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.
My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?
Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.
Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time) Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.
Thank you for your reply! Anything we can do to get this pushed up the priority board because a mechanic that penalizes vets and disincentives pvp just feels wrong on every level!!
Pinky Denmark wrote:James1122 wrote:Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time) It was written (by a dev) that you would have to check and upgrade your clone accordingly at your own cost. Try search for it...
And congrats for not actualy reading my post properly. I really would gladlygive a dev -ú50+ to allow us to neg rep people on this forum >.< Two Step for CSM |
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
159
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:11:00 -
[462] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Our hero! |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
547
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:22:00 -
[463] - Quote
CCP
You are contradicting yourself and screwing things up here.
Quote:We are changing skill requirements to keep a training time close to what we have in game right now and to make sure players meet more relevant prerequisites when gearing for Capital Ships
Wrong....
Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days Orca > 49 days to 17 days
These are clearly not "close to what we have in game right now"
You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.
This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.
The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless.
If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. |
Jungleland Roy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:25:00 -
[464] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Thank you
Good decision. The rest I'm 100% behind you with.
Cheers Roy |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4475
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:25:00 -
[465] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Thank you for the quick reply. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
788
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:38:00 -
[466] - Quote
I made sure to inject Command Ships into the alt I intend to train it on later ;)
CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. That's cool to hear. |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:54:00 -
[467] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best Edge case question: what if the skill is at zero, i.e. the skill is injected and either untrained or only partially trained towards level 1?
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Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
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Posted - 2013.02.08 13:55:00 -
[468] - Quote
Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players. These changes might be an easier way for newer players to get into specific hulls, but the reimbursements and some of these changes hurt older players very hard. I know that usually there are always some victims within such deep changes, but parts are really p'$5145 me off (and I-¦m rather a calm person). On paper these changes might look good from a beginners point, but not if you are capable, trained and used to fly different ships already. These players will loose to much of their playstyles and flexibilitiy.
Destroyers and Battlecruisers: Currently I have trained both of these skills to level 5 and all additional requirements meet to fly every Tier1 Destroyer/Battlecruiser of every faction with maximum bonuses. So if I got this right, I will get a reimbursement and can reinvest in the approriate racial skill - BUT ONLY FOR ONE AT LEVEL 5 AGAIN. That means that I loose 3/4 of my bonuses of these ships, since I get only enough skill points to maximize one race to level 5. Apart that I will also have to buy the skillbooks, right? I don-¦t care here, that I might be able to fly them with level 1, but the time it will take me to be at the same skill level again.
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Battleships requirements: Since Cruisers now require the respective racial Destroyer skill at level 3, what happens to these, if I only get enough skill points reimbursed to maximize racial Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill? E.g. currently having Destroyers/Battlecruisers at 5; and I like to fly the Cormorant, Arbitrator, Hurricane and Dominix. After the changes I cannot fly these, until I have the proper Racial prerequired skills trained, but I do not get enough reimbursement points to be at the same level and forced to decide which of these vessels I have to sacrifice for a while.
Impacts on fittings: Well, since you will loose different ship bonuses, you won-¦t be able to use the current fittings or at least they will loose their power. Yay - NOT!
Industrials/Orca: These changes are exaggerated! I mean Iteron V from 24d down to 33 minutes!?! WoOt, everyone will only use them instead of the other industrials, because of the cargo capacity/training time in comparison. I also feel betrayed here.
Swapping skills: With these changes you also break promisses, since if the player doesn-¦t have the other skill trained to the required level, he won-¦t be able to fly this. Especially Command Ships and Freighter changes are very rough! That-¦s over ~ one month of training!!! Direkt impact on Electronic Attack Ships, Command Ships, as well as Interdictors, Heavy Assault Ships, Recon Ships, Heavy Interdictors as well - isn-¦t that too much at a time?!
Reimbursement statement: This is just simply not enough. You should reimburse the players in a way, that they suffer as little as possible. I mean it-¦s not our mistake that you rebalance this, so why should we be the ones taking the hit? We should be able to remain at our current achieved skill ranks and ships. If it would only mean to have to train up some skills in less than a week, that-¦s ok, but in many cases it will rather take several weeks. There should be either given out additional free skill points, remaps or special one-time implants/boosters which speed up the training. Also originally your quote "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" should have been expanded with "at the same level". I comes to my mind that you might not have taken into account, that players actually have training plans, which you are messing up in big parts.
There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes...
Damn you are dumb. Try reading the actual topic before complaining.
Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
28
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Posted - 2013.02.08 13:55:00 -
[469] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:
You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.
This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.
For capital ships quite a few days of navigation skills were added, which should compensate somewhat, especially since it's on another mapping entirely.
Also it makes no sense at all to compare the times used to ENTER a ship. There's a ton of skills required to actually fly a ship and those don't change at all.
So what if the lvl 1 skill for Armageddon Navy Issue was reduced from 7 days to 3 days? Only a moron or a desperate person would fly that thing without at least 100-150 days in support and gunnery skills and to fly the ship efficiently you would also need the BS skill at least at IV, better yet V, which takes longer than BS1 in the first place.
So you're looking at a change from something like 144-184 days to 140-180. Big deal.
Where the new system really shines is if you already have all the support skills and need to change to another race's shis due to guild doctrin, as it severly cuts down on training time.
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Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:04:00 -
[470] - Quote
Alexandra Alt wrote:Nalha Saldana wrote:Alexandra Alt wrote:So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:
I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4. On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.
Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to? Read the blog properly, you will still be able to fly the ships and train the skill without the necessary prereq skills. It is clear yes I can still fly the ship, as I stated in the first paragraph, I knew that already. The issues are actually 2: a) Will it check the pre-reqs when I add the skill in queue to train it from 4 to 5 and not allow me to ? b) Will another skill that requires (as an example) Command Ship 5 require me to get * warfare skills to 5 ? If the answer to any of the questions above is yes, then it makes no sense at all, remove the pre-req checks id you have the skill injected at least.
Man , you just don't quit do you? Read the ******* topic. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3730
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:05:00 -
[471] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Rommiee wrote:
You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.
This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.
For capital ships quite a few days of navigation skills were added, which should compensate somewhat, especially since it's on another mapping entirely. Also it makes no sense at all to compare the times used to ENTER a ship. There's a ton of skills required to actually fly a ship and those don't change at all. So what if the lvl 1 skill for Armageddon Navy Issue was reduced from 7 days to 3 days? Only a moron or a desperate person would fly that thing without at least 100-150 days in support and gunnery skills and to fly the ship efficiently you would also need the BS skill at least at IV, better yet V, which takes longer than BS1 in the first place. So you're looking at a change from something like 144-184 days to 140-180. Big deal. Where the new system really shines is if you already have all the support skills and need to change to another race's shis due to guild doctrin, as it severly cuts down on training time. Well actually I can see part of where they're coming from. Whereas part of the skills required to fly the ship have been removed, some of the skills required to fly the ship well have been added to the requirements. So it takes the same amount of time to get into the ship, but it takes less time to train the skills necessary to fly the ship well.
So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:07:00 -
[472] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3732
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:08:00 -
[473] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.
Radius Prime wrote:Man , you just don't quit do you? Read the ******* topic. Perhaps you should take your own advice. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
302
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:10:00 -
[474] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.
Try the last page... So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1281
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:12:00 -
[475] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:
Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days Orca > 49 days to 17 days
Thats funny, none of the times that anybody else comes up with are anything close to yours. In fact many t2 ships actually take a bit longer to train into after this change, and by a bit, some are significantly longer.
I
Rommiee wrote:The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless.
If they need to be trained anyway why do you care if they add them in as prereqs?
Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.
Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1281
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:12:00 -
[476] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.
You could, you know, just across the board cut them all in half and I'd love you long time.
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Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
302
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:13:00 -
[477] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:In before you get flamed for dumbing the game down :D
Rommiee wrote:You are dumbing the game down once again. [...] If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.
Boom, i'm a freaking prophet! So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
17
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:13:00 -
[478] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.
It has already been answered. You will still be able to train it.
#447
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
28
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:19:00 -
[479] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.
Unless you're that WH carrier pilot, who cannot simply jump into his skill V Abaddon for a roam into that neighbour WH now, because he skilled useless jump drive skills instead of BS V :).
There's ups and downs for everything. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3733
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:24:00 -
[480] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.
Unless you're that WH carrier pilot, who cannot simply jump into his skill V Abaddon for a roam into that neighbour WH now, because he skilled useless jump drive skills instead of BS V :). There's ups and downs for everything. As wormhole carrier pilots so kindly pointed out to me, those jump skills aren't useless at all unless you built your Archon in some wormhole that you can't get out of. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
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