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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 39 post(s) |
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CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
458
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Almost one year ago, CCP Ytterbium announced plans to split the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills into racial equivalents for each of the factions. This change will go through in the expansion planned for this summer and Ytterbium has penned all of the details into one dev blog.
You can read it all here.
Please remember that if you can fly it before the split, you can fly it after. This applies to all of the listed changes. We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread. CCP Gargant | Community Representative | EVE Illuminati |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
7084
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Whoop whoop
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
456
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
In before Chr..... seriously? CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3876
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Just to repeat one piece of information that's in the blog but is important enough to repeat here:
These changes are scheduled for the summer expansion. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3926
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Looking good for the most part, though I still don't like requiring Jump Fuel conservation IV for carriers. Calibration III is alright, but honestly since a carrier is the earliest and most accessible ship most people use that has jump capability, both just feel like chores rather than skills that enhance your experience as you train them. You could simply lower jump fuel cost across the board and eliminate the skill if you're only giving players one additional skill level to train, in the end. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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V'Kanth Agalder
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
1
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Whoop whoop
So looking at those changes and the reimbursement... having a number of supercap alts purely trained to sit in supers, that's gonna be one of the "tough" ones at the time of the reimbursement since they have neither BC or DS skills - what happens when these pilots log on without the skills?
Can I assume they will work just as they do today, as long as you got the titan skill, you can fly it regardless if you lost the BS skill or similar (yes has happened to me).
Or maybe that's answered by the last section... if I can fly it..
/c
As said in the blog, as long as you have the titan skill before the change, it doesn't matter what the sub-requirements are. The only exceptions are for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill, which is why we are reimbursing them. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3876
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?
Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to inject the Command Ships skill but if someone has already injected the skill the change will not affect them. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
7084
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Chribba wrote:Whoop whoop
So looking at those changes and the reimbursement... having a number of supercap alts purely trained to sit in supers, that's gonna be one of the "tough" ones at the time of the reimbursement since they have neither BC or DS skills - what happens when these pilots log on without the skills?
Can I assume they will work just as they do today, as long as you got the titan skill, you can fly it regardless if you lost the BS skill or similar (yes has happened to me).
Or maybe that's answered by the last section... if I can fly it..
/c As said in the blog, as long as you have the titan skill before the change, it doesn't matter what the sub-requirements are. The only exceptions are for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill, which is why we are reimbursing them. Excellent, just have to hope that I never get podded and lose the titan skill then haha
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V'Kanth Agalder
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
1
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to inject the Command Ships skill but if someone has already injected the skill the change will not affect them.
Pity! |
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Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
49
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
In before JF purge in summer expansion. Hint: they are missing in those screenshots. Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
199
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Looks like you've got your work cut out when it comes to rebalancing the T1 industrials. Example: If you can hop into an Iteron V at skill level 1, people are unlikely to ever bother with the other Iteron versions.
Aside from that little wrinkle, which i'm sure must have been considered, it looks good, +1 "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3877
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:In before JF purge in summer expansion. Hint: they are missing in those screenshots.
From the bottom of the ship groups section with all the pictures:
Quote:All the other vessels not listed here (shuttles, frigates, Interceptors, Assault Ships, Covert Ops, Logistics, Strategic Cruisers, Black Ops, Marauders, Pirate Frigates, Pirate Cruisers, Pirate Battleships, Pirate Supercarrier, Transport Ships, Jump Freighters, Mining Frigate, Ore Industrial, Exhumers) are not directly affected by the skill modifications, although this may create prerequisite changes in nested requirements. For instance, Marauders require Battleship at 5, whose own requirements are changing. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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fenistil
Defensive Parameter The Mandalorians
68
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
It does not make sense to train siege warfare skill for a damnation.
You are gearing for a Specialized skill training tree and you are saying that I need to train SHIELD Leadership skills for a Damnation?
This is ********! -á. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3877
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
fenistil wrote:It does not make sense to train siege warfare skill for a damnation.
You are gearing for a Specialized skill training tree and you are saying that I need to train SHIELD Leadership skills for a Damnation?
This is ********!
Those requirements are for the Command Ships skill themselves, the skills are the ones that give bonuses even without gang links, and even with them the time to train the ship is decreasing from what it was before. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
168
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tldr? :D
Overall it looks awesome, but I have two questions:
1. Something that I always wondered was, why do you display multiple instances of the same skill requirement in skill trees? For instance, new Command Ships will require 4x Leadership I and 1x Leadership V - imo all that information is redundant. Even with nested skills, surely that list could be tidied up?
2. Let's assume I want to fly Domination. The ship will have Armored and Skirmish link bonuses - why do I need to get Information and Siege to V as well (as prerequisites for Command Ships)? |
Alain Colcer
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
May i ask if the balancing team will one day consider repurposing the Adv Spaceship Command?
Currently you need it to fly Freighters, but also exists the Capital Ships skill along with racial Carrier/Dread/Titan
Would it be possible to refurbish the ASC skill so only the "capital ships" skill is required to fly freighters and the ASC gives a 2% warp speed bonus? to ALL ships |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4460
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
HAC is back
Nice sensible changes overall. |
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
49
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set.
Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs. Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |
badposting
Doctrine.
1
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
The skills you added to caps were ones you needed anyway (except capships IV) so the effective training time for caps is now way shorter. Like we needed that. |
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FinalFlash84
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
10
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
According to your explanation, shouldn't the DD prereqs (like Science V, EPW V and AWU V) also be added to the titan? |
Ricc Deckard
Trux Germani Ev0ke
12
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to inject the Command Ships skill but if someone has already injected the skill the change will not affect them.
Damn, for a moment I thought you would give me the leaderships for free |
Komisches
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Brain is tired, missed something in that read: if i have frigate5/cruiser5 (across all races already) battlecruisers 5 and destroyers 5 making me able to fly all the damn ships, what the hell happens to all my skills? |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
356
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Did I miss something, or are you now requiring all 5s for the leadership squad boost skills to fly field commands? This doesn't make much sense to me. |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
59
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
At first, quite some time ago, I wasn't too convinced with the additional racial skill wall being added before the new players. But now, seeing the whole package (especially the various specializations being made easier), I think this is going to be a good change. Well done. |
ORCACommander
Obsidian Firelance Technologies
20
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
You need a blurb in there about where to apply for reimbursement and when you want us to apply. |
darius mclever
47
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1
You sure that shouldn't read Aeon there? |
Tiberius Murderhorne
CONTRATTO Tribal Band
67
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Posted - 2013.02.07 13:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
badposting wrote:The skills you added to caps were ones you needed anyway (except capships IV) so the effective training time for caps is now way shorter. Like we needed that.
Everyone now needs a dread to kill all these supercaps!
overall these changes make sense although im betting this thread is massive by the time i get home :P
Cheers Tib Disclaimer : My posting does not always reflect my Corps views or my allience views.... Infact sometimes it does not even reflect my views! |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3877
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
ORCACommander wrote:You need a blurb in there about where to apply for reimbursement and when you want us to apply.
No need to apply, the new skills will be done and placed in your head automagically. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Kabaos
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
"F..k the system" |
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Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
seems pretty good, will be easier to plan things on evemon, no more bad surprises, less skills with no uses, and more thing you needed to train later anyway.
I like the change on the orca btw ; people has often complained about skilling barge at 5 for a ship that half people use for hauling made no sense |
Han Hyo Joo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
Could you clarify increasing the requirement of Capital Ships to 4 on carriers? |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:04:00 -
[33] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Tldr? :D
Overall it looks awesome, but I have two questions:
1. Something that I always wondered was, why do you display multiple instances of the same skill requirement in skill trees? For instance, new Command Ships will require 4x Leadership I and 1x Leadership V - imo all that information is redundant. Even with nested skills, surely that list could be tidied up?
Because the skill tab is old Technically the current skill tab shows all requirements for all skills, no matter if they already being shown one line above, which is indeed confusing. |
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
753
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
199
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Han Hyo Joo wrote:Could you clarify increasing the requirement of Capital Ships to 4 on carriers?
Probably to make up for no longer needing racial BS 5 "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set. Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs.
We aren't adding Freighters 5 as the Jump Freighter requirement, at least not for a good while. We considered it, but the prospect of giving 7 million skill points extra wasn't appealing. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
FinalFlash84 wrote:According to your explanation, shouldn't the DD prereqs (like Science V, EPW V and AWU V) also be added to the titan?
edit: Also Fighter V and EW V for supercarriers
Ideally, yes, but we wanted to keep close hard training times, so we had to take a pick between the Doomsday and the Jump Portal. |
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Vessper
Indicium Technologies
25
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
It's a nice overhaul of the skill requirements but it seems like a good opportunity to simplify any primary/secondary/tertiary skills that are already included elsewhere.
For example, the Providence secondary skill requires Amarr Freighter 1, which itself requires Advanced Spaceship Command 5. In that case, is there any need to have the primary skill of Advanced Spaceship command 1? Just make Amarr Freighter 1 the primary skill requirement.
Similar duplications can be seen in Mining Barges and all capital ships.
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Denuo Secus
136
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
Slightly offtopic - regarding the new skill requirements for rookie ships (Spaceship Command 1 only):
Seeing this skill change + the fact rookie ships are quite usefull for a skilled player as well now, would it be possible to be able to choose the faction variant of a rookie ship I get when docking on a station without other ships docked there? The possibility to request rookie ships on stations with other ships on it would be nice as well. Maybe restricted by a timer or even a price to prevent "rookie ship spamming".
Personally, I never liked the fact I'm bound to my birth faction rookie ship for life time. Especially when not in high sec, I cannot buy the rookie ship I want to fly always.
Alternative idea: I get a rookie ship according to the faction which owns the station. The latter solution would make much more sense lore-wise. Why should I get an Ibis on a Gallente station? Gallente don't even know how to build an Ibis! |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Awesome change all in all, even though the imbusement has a big chance to completely mess with my skill plans. :)
Missing one single piece of information.
The EXACT datetime. You wrote to tell us "exactly [...] when this is happening". The only thing that can be interpreted as a date is 'within the Summer 2013 expansion". That is hardly exact.
How about something like, you know, a DATE? |
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Sarmatiko
876
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Those requirements are for the Command Ships skill themselves, the skills are the ones that give bonuses even without gang links, and even with them the time to train the ship is decreasing from what it was before. Those prerequisites work only for initial skill injecting or they will affect further training? For example, I have skill Command Ships trained to 4 now. Do I need to have prerequisite skills to train Command Ships V after those changes?
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Lipbite
Express Hauler
606
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
So I'll be able to fly effectively every carrier without 4x30days of training racial battleships to V?...
Great! |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Komisches wrote:Brain is tired, missed something in that read: if i have frigate5/cruiser5 (across all races already) battlecruisers 5 and destroyers 5 making me able to fly all the damn ships, what the hell happens to all my skills?
Simple, if you have all these skills to 5 then you are golden:
- Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5 will be removed from your character sheet
- We will give you Amarr Destroyer 5, Caldari Destroyer 5, Gallente Destroyer 5, Minmatar Destroyer 5, Amarr Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5, Gallente Battlecruiser 5 and Minmatar Battlecruiser 5 because you had all racial frigates and cruisers skills past 3 on top of Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5.
That's explained in the blog |
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CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp CCP Engineering Alliance
134
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Awesome change all in all, even though the imbusement has a big chance to completely mess with my skill plans. :)
Missing one single piece of information.
The EXACT datetime. You wrote to tell us "exactly [...] when this is happening". The only thing that can be interpreted as a date is 'within the Summer 2013 expansion". That is hardly exact.
How about something like, you know, a DATE?
We cannot announce exactly when this is happening. But you have many months yet before this goes live. Feel free to poke me on: Twitter |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
darius mclever wrote:Quote:Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1 You sure that shouldn't read Aeon there?
Quite right sir, thanks |
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CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
599
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
I'd like to question some of the carrier skills:
Why Capital Ships 4 for regular carriers? Why not 3 for normal carriers + dreads and 4 for Supercarriers? Why JFC 4 for carriers when JDC is only at 3? They're arguably more useful the other way around. Why don't dreads need JDC/JFC? Why is CapShips 1 a primary pre-req for carriers while CapShips 4 is a secondary pre-req under the racial carrier skill? That's just confusing to read. |
Marsaac
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
4
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:17:00 -
[47] - Quote
Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me. |
SMT008
Wormholers Anonymous Transmission Lost
512
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
A massive "Thank you !" to the entire CCP Team, keep going, it owns.
I've got a couple questions and/or things that I would like to talk about.
First, a question regarding skill reimbursement.
You specifically said "If you could fly it pre-patch, you'll be able to fly it post-patch".
And now I'm looking at this screenshot, regarding the Zealot skill requirements : Zealot requirements
It says that I'll need "Energy Grid Upgrade V" to fly it. I can already fly it as it is on TQ, does that mean I'll get Energy Grid Upgrade V when comes patch-day ?
Now a couple issues :
Regarding the Damnation screenshot here.
From what I can understand, it says that the "Command Ships" skill will require all types of "xxxxxxx Warfare" trained to V. And as the "Command Ships" skill is required to fly a Damnation, that means I'll have to train all types of "xxxxxxx Warfare" to V to be able to fly a Damnation.
It's highly illogical and should not hit TQ as it is. You're basically asking a Caldari pilot to train for Lasers in order to fly his Rokh.
If you want to fix this the easy way, then find other requirements for the Command Ship skills (Requirements that are not linked to a specific race) and add Racial Warfare V to the requirements for the command ships (ie the ships themselves, not the skill).
Specifically :
Quote: Heavy Assault Ships skill requirement removed from Field Command Ships (Absolution, Nighthawk, Astarte, Sleipnir) Logistics skill requirement removed from Fleet Command Ships (Damnation, Vulture, Eos, Claymore) Information Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Armored Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Siege Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Skirmish Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill
This part says "Let's bring in more specialization, but you should be able to use all command ship links before stepping in the command ship you want and use only one type of links".
If it still hits TQ as it is, the "You'll be able to fly it if you could fly it before" thing will mean that I'll get all types of Warfare skills to V, is that correct ?
About Freighters, Orcas and Rorquals :
Amazing, with a little bit of additional training, I'll be able to fly(and lose horribly) those ships on all my capital-capable pilots ! Thank you very much.
Oh and one last thing. I would still keep BS IV required for caps. I understand what you guys want to do, but we're talking about going from subcapitals to capital ships. It's a different class altogether, having BS IV as a requirement wouldn't hurt, really. |
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc Zero Hour Alliance
173
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
Now that newbies can fly a more expensive and seemingly more powerful hull with less training, is there any incentive within the NPE or some other platform to explain that being able to fly a battlecruiser within 2 days is a bad thing waiting to happen? |
Z1gy
Vindicator Corporation Strategic Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
ok the skill tree for command ship skill is a bit confusing! i have toon that can fly command ships but i don't have all the basic warfare skills trained to 5 (i'm looking at you information warfare).
So when the skill changes hit will i get info warfare to 5 automatically?
and also for HIC - it need graviton 5 ! the old (current) skill uses prop jamming to 5 to inject HIC - what if i already inject HIC skill book now but don't have time to inject graviton physic skill book - i wont be able to fly my HIC or i will get grav physic to 4 when the changes hit? |
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Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
238
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
I think dropping the BS skills requirement to 3 for caps is silly. Leave it a lvl 4. Also Jump Cali 3 and Jump Fuel Conservation 4 for Carriers... really? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:19:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Awesome change all in all, even though the imbusement has a big chance to completely mess with my skill plans. :)
Missing one single piece of information.
The EXACT datetime. You wrote to tell us "exactly [...] when this is happening". The only thing that can be interpreted as a date is 'within the Summer 2013 expansion". That is hardly exact.
How about something like, you know, a DATE? We cannot announce exactly when this is happening. But you have many months yet before this goes live.
If you're trying to tell me that it will be EARLIEST mid of May then i'm fine. (Had to take a break due to the wife and on return to adapt to the AI change)
If you're quoting 'many' from Pratchett's trolls, even better, that would mean early June at the earliest.
Problem is, April to May has been floating in the forums and anyrthing before mid of May would pose a problem for me :). |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
27
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:19:00 -
[53] - Quote
Still reading devblog and haven't read thread yet, but I think I may have found 2 mistakes:
Carriers and Supercarriers:
Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1
Shouldn't that be Aeon?
Dreadnoughts: Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers increased from 1 to 3
Shouldn't that be Dreadnoughts? |
Draqula
A-OK Logistics and Fabrication StoneGuard Alliance
0
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Posted - 2013.02.07 14:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
Komisches wrote:Brain is tired, missed something in that read: if i have frigate5/cruiser5 (across all races already) battlecruisers 5 and destroyers 5 making me able to fly all the damn ships, what the hell happens to all my skills?
You will "get" 6 million more SP when they convert destroyers 5 into racial destroyers 5 and BC 5 into racial BC 5.
make sure your clone has the room for 6mil more SP because they are going to appear out of thin air.
They will transfer over whatever level BC / Destroyer into the racial versions. BC3? cal BC3, Gal BC3, Min BC3 and Ama BC3 |
Rethyl
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:23:00 -
[55] - Quote
In before someone buys *all* the Iteron V's, since there's no longer any reason to fly any other industrial ship. |
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CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp CCP Engineering Alliance
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
Marsaac wrote:Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me.
You will still be able to fly it. The top skill in the tree is the only one that actually determines your ability to fly a ship. The Fenrir before and after will require:
Primary: Advanced Spaceship Command Level I
Secondary: Minmatar Freighter Level I
So you can fly it even though you do not have Advanced Spaceship Command at Level V. Feel free to poke me on: Twitter |
|
Han Hyo Joo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:24:00 -
[57] - Quote
I feel like a lot of confusion about this could have been spared if you referred to items in the blogs specifically as skills. It's not clear whether you're talking about a ship itself or a skill in certain instances. If you just simply write "Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers and Supercarriers Skills increased from 3 to 4" it would help a lot. |
Madlof Chev
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
103
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
Freighters are assbackwards (not that I particularly care):
The primary skill requirement after the change is already contained in the secondary skill requirement. You might want to just nuke the primary skill requirement altogether.
(if you had Racial Freighter as the primary skill and someone had already trained it then ASC V wouldn't be required amirite) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:25:00 -
[59] - Quote
Could you guys please stop the panic regarding 'I can fly it now, but I don't have skill X' ?
Those additional skills are requirements for your current ship's SKILL, not for the SHIP. Since you guys can already FLY the ship, you obviously already HAVE the skill that has now some other requirements.
So obviously you will still be able to fly that ship, you could just not learn it the same way with a new toon. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
Rethyl wrote:In before someone buys *all* the Iteron V's, since there's no longer any reason to fly any other industrial ship.
As far as I understood, an industrial rebalancing/tiericide will happen at some point, which is the main motivation behind the skill requirement streamlining in the first place. |
|
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CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp CCP Engineering Alliance
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Could you guys please stop the panic regarding 'I can fly it now, but I don't have skill X' ?
Those additional skills are requirements for your current ship's SKILL, not for the SHIP. Since you guys can already FLY the ship, you obviously already HAVE the skill that has now some other requirements.
So obviously you will still be able to fly that ship, you could just not learn it the same way with a new toon.
Correct!
Feel free to poke me on: Twitter |
|
Rethyl
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
Typo: the section on dreadnoughts suffers from some copypasta errors: "Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers increased from 1 to 3." |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1562
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:30:00 -
[63] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1562
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:33:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Could you guys please stop the panic regarding 'I can fly it now, but I don't have skill X' ?
Those additional skills are requirements for your current ship's SKILL, not for the SHIP. Since you guys can already FLY the ship, you obviously already HAVE the skill that has now some other requirements.
So obviously you will still be able to fly that ship, you could just not learn it the same way with a new toon. Correct! There will be alot of freighter pilots in that state. Few got advanced spaceship command at V. But all will still be able to fly their freighters. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
pipin meh
NED-Clan
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:33:00 -
[65] - Quote
Now that we are getting loads of new sp could we please get cheaper clones.. i want to pvp in frigates without having to pay 20mil everytime i welp |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1039
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:36:00 -
[66] - Quote
Summer is Coming |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
753
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:36:00 -
[67] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same.
How many people have charisma maps? Not many would be my guess. Command ships will be severely penalised. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:36:00 -
[68] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP RubberBAND wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Could you guys please stop the panic regarding 'I can fly it now, but I don't have skill X' ?
Those additional skills are requirements for your current ship's SKILL, not for the SHIP. Since you guys can already FLY the ship, you obviously already HAVE the skill that has now some other requirements.
So obviously you will still be able to fly that ship, you could just not learn it the same way with a new toon. Correct! There will be alot of freighter pilots in that state. Few got advanced spaceship command at V. But all will still be able to fly their freighters.
Well, as long as not half of them get heart attacks from sheer panic, all will be well in New Eden :) |
FinalFlash84
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:37:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:FinalFlash84 wrote:According to your explanation, shouldn't the DD prereqs (like Science V, EPW V and AWU V) also be added to the titan?
edit: Also Fighter V and EW V for supercarriers Ideally, yes, but we wanted to keep close hard training times, so we had to take a pick between the Doomsday and the Jump Portal. Fair enough, but isn't your argument kind of stupid? You want to break the norm for one or two shipclasses because it would take longer to train for (although for the ppl currently using them nothing would change) and for this you'd rather have an exception rather then to say that your explanation in the devblog accounts for EVERY ship in EVE ? |
ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
476
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
IB4 irreversible tweaking to the skill cue that inadvertently turns all hamsters into gerbils... - Nulla Curas |
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Rexitx
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:39:00 -
[71] - Quote
Quote:The ORE branch (Venture, Noctis, Orca, Rorqual plus all mining barge variations) has been tweaked to a consistent progression. For instance, the Rorqual will not need Mining Barges 5 to be flown anymore, but will instead require the Industrial Command Ship skill at 3, itself requiring ORE Industrial at 3.
Awesome change, any thoughts on allowing refunds for the now unneeded barge skills? |
Xaero Petraeus
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
Awesomesauce!
What a pleasant surprise. Keep 'em coming please.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1562
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:42:00 -
[73] - Quote
It just occurred to me that there is another step in preparation all us players should be doing, other than getting the skills Destroyer and Battlecrusier high:
The requirements for injecting some skills will be changing. Some you could inject before the change will not be inject-able after the change. So go thorough your sheet and inject every skill you can. Lock it in while its still possible. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
StarStryder
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
Hmm, so the low end indy ships now become entirely redundant.
Is Advanced Spaceship Command below level 5 used for anything?
Also, for the Command ships, why not remove the Warfare skills (except Warfare Link Specialist) from Command Ships and add two of them to each Ship and a tertiary requirement? |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
51
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:44:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Forlorn Wongraven wrote:@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set. Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs. We aren't adding Freighters 5 as the Jump Freighter requirement, at least not for a good while. We considered it, but the prospect of giving 7 million skill points extra wasn't appealing.
That doesn't make any kind of sense.
The Jump Freighter skill is like any other t2 ship skill, like Heavy Assault Cruiser. There is no requirement for the hull in there. The hull comes in the determination of which jump freighter(s) can be flown by the character who has the Jump Freighter skill.
However, to be consistent, you should be making racial freighter 5 be the prereq to fly the racial jump freighter, just like racial frigate/destroyer/cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship are required to fly the racial t2 variants of the same hull.
|
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
They laughed at me at the academy when I trained armored, siege, info, and skirmish to V! Laughed! But I have the last laugh now! |
Sarmatiko
876
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:47:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote: Correct!
Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
|
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
216
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:48:00 -
[78] - Quote
So, trying to consolidate everything so they all make sense, is the "Heavy" prefix with the HAC and HIC need to be there?
Assault Frigate, Assault Cruiser, Interdiction Cruiser is pretty straightforward. Unless you plan on making Light Assault Cruisers. Assault Frigates are Light or Heavy, and Interdictors are Light Interdictors... Just an OCD thing, maybe. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
51
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:50:00 -
[79] - Quote
If you are going to be flying a command ship in a fleet, you really already should have all those skills to V anyway, to provide those benefits to your fleet.
The problem is that what are called the field command ships (absolution, sleipnir, astarte and nighthawk) are often flown as combat ships, not as support ships. What I would like to see done (though this would add yet more sp to clones) would be to make the fleet command ships the only command ships, and make the field command ships a separate ship entirely, like a heavy assault battlecruiser - that is essentially how they are used now in everything but the alliance tournament. I'm sure someone will jump in and say how they use the nighthawk in place of the vulture for some kind of fleet, or something similar, but outlying cases don't disqualify the larger issue at hand. |
Laurinius
Uplifting Infernal Paradise Zombie Ninja Space Bears
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:53:00 -
[80] - Quote
Madlof Chev wrote:Freighters are assbackwards (not that I particularly care):
The primary skill requirement after the change is already contained in the secondary skill requirement. You might want to just nuke the primary skill requirement altogether.
(if you had Racial Freighter as the primary skill and someone had already trained it then ASC V wouldn't be required amirite)
No, you can't just remove one of the direct requirements Skills. Imagine a ship now needs: -Skill A at 1 -Skill B at 3
Now Skill B requires Skill A at 4, so the requirement for the ship changes to: -Skill A at 1 -Skill B at 3 ---Skill A at 4
The direct requirements are still the same for making sure you can fly this ship if you could fly it before.
Now imagine you have already trained Skill B to 3, but haven't trained Skill A at all (as it was not required for Skill A). Now the Skill A requirement gets dropped from the ship. Then you can fly this ship without ever having trained Skill A. |
|
Xaero Petraeus
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:53:00 -
[81] - Quote
meh |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
339
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:56:00 -
[82] - Quote
Looks great!!
Now get back into ship rebalancing haha |
|
CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp CCP Engineering Alliance
135
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:57:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote: Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.
So for the Fenrir you will need to first have Advanced Spaceship Command at level V before you can start training Minmatar Freighter, but the prerequisite for that skill has changed. Feel free to poke me on: Twitter |
|
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:59:00 -
[84] - Quote
Irregessa wrote:If you are going to be flying a command ship in a fleet, you really already should have all those skills to V anyway, to provide those benefits to your fleet.
The problem is that what are called the field command ships (absolution, sleipnir, astarte and nighthawk) are often flown as combat ships, not as support ships. What I would like to see done (though this would add yet more sp to clones) would be to make the fleet command ships the only command ships, and make the field command ships a separate ship entirely, like a heavy assault battlecruiser - that is essentially how they are used now in everything but the alliance tournament. I'm sure someone will jump in and say how they use the nighthawk in place of the vulture for some kind of fleet, or something similar, but outlying cases don't disqualify the larger issue at hand.
If this devblog comes to pass, the distinction between fleet and field command ships will vanish. (I hope this only means that the fleet command ships will get a full set of highs of their weapons and not have their other bonuses nixed in favor of combat bonuses. I can dream, okay.) |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
27
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:59:00 -
[85] - Quote
OMFG People in this thread need to learn about nested skills !!!!!!!!!!!!
Skill 1 - Nested Skill 2 - Nested Skill 3 - - Nested Nested Skill 3-2
If you have Skill 1 already you don't have to train the Nested Skills. Unless you are going to try and train that skill after the changes, then you will need to train them.
You will not get the Nested Skills added to your toon as part of the change. |
Phobos Vortex
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:02:00 -
[86] - Quote
Quote:While we are fine with time sinks, they should be related to the field you are specializing into and not push you into hulls you are not interested in.
But we are still forced to specialize in small weapons before we can specialize in large ones. Tis doesnt make sense and it was stated earlier that this issue will be discussed. So when we now can specialize directly into the ships we want, why are we still pushed into weapons we are not interested in? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:03:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:CCP RubberBAND wrote: Correct!
Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
Straight answer?
You simply don't understand how skills work! Prerequisites are checked when you are trying to inject the skill from its skill book. Once it is in your skill queue - even at 0 - you are free to skill as far as you want. |
Nalha Saldana
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
663
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Phobos Vortex wrote:Quote:While we are fine with time sinks, they should be related to the field you are specializing into and not push you into hulls you are not interested in. But we are still forced to specialize in small weapons before we can specialize in large ones. Tis doesnt make sense and it was stated earlier that this issue will be discussed. So when we now can specialize directly into the ships we want, why are we still pushed into weapons we are not interested in?
Very much this, time to split them up too. |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
51
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:10:00 -
[89] - Quote
So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.
If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does? |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:13:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Sarmatiko wrote: Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained. So for the Fenrir you will need to first have Advanced Spaceship Command at level V before you can start training Minmatar Freighter, but the prerequisite for that skill has changed.
this suck.
i currently have all the * warfare to III, warfare link specialis IV and Command Ship to 4
this means that even if the skill is injected and already trained up to IV, after the expansion i'll need to get ALL the *Warfare ti V BEFORE i can even resume training the Command Ship V?
if yes, this is bullshit |
|
ORCACommander
Obsidian Firelance Technologies
20
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:ORCACommander wrote:You need a blurb in there about where to apply for reimbursement and when you want us to apply. No need to apply, the new skills will be done and placed in your head automagically.
AHHHH GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!!!
*runs head first into a wall*
hmm might want to clear that up on the end of the blog then |
Wiu Ming
Dead Guy Syndicate Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
37
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:18:00 -
[92] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:2. Let's assume I want to fly Domination...
I flew a Domination once.
|
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
264
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:18:00 -
[93] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:CCP RubberBAND wrote:Sarmatiko wrote: Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained. So for the Fenrir you will need to first have Advanced Spaceship Command at level V before you can start training Minmatar Freighter, but the prerequisite for that skill has changed. this suck. i currently have all the * warfare to III, warfare link specialis IV and Command Ship to 4 this means that even if the skill is injected and already trained up to IV, after the expansion i'll need to get ALL the *Warfare ti V BEFORE i can even resume training the Command Ship V? if yes, this is bullshit As far as I know, as long as the skill is already injected, you can keep training it further. It's the injection of the skill that is affected by the prerequisites. However, I could be wrong, and would appreciate a CCP response on the matter. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
239
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:19:00 -
[94] - Quote
Dedicated supercap chars should get their skillpoints for racial BS 4 and 5 reimbursed. |
Sarmatiko
876
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Straight answer?
You simply don't understand how skills work! Prerequisites are checked when you are trying to inject the skill from its skill book. Once it is in your skill queue - even at 0 - you are free to skill as far as you want. Yeah, you saying this like training injected skills with one or more missing prerequisites is a common case. Guess I just need to pod myself few times without clone just to test this out?
I'll better ask for direct answer and doublecheck because I don't want to train another pack of useless skills for another 60+ days in addition to now irrelevant Assault/Heavy assault ships.
Anyway I just started to train CS V so problem is solved.
|
seth Hendar
I love you miners
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:20:00 -
[96] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:seth Hendar wrote:CCP RubberBAND wrote:Sarmatiko wrote: Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained. So for the Fenrir you will need to first have Advanced Spaceship Command at level V before you can start training Minmatar Freighter, but the prerequisite for that skill has changed. this suck. i currently have all the * warfare to III, warfare link specialis IV and Command Ship to 4 this means that even if the skill is injected and already trained up to IV, after the expansion i'll need to get ALL the *Warfare ti V BEFORE i can even resume training the Command Ship V? if yes, this is bullshit As far as I know, as long as the skill is already injected, you can keep training it further. It's the injection of the skill that is affected by the prerequisites. However, I could be wrong, and would appreciate a CCP response on the matter.
that's what i was thinking prior to CCP Ruberband answer, stating:
Quote:Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.
|
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1781
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Many people in situations similar to mine can currently fly the Archon with these skills: BS at V, JDO at 1, and Amarr Carrier at I.....
After this change, I will not be able to fly the Archon, as I wont have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC
CCP CLEARLY state "if we can fly it today, we can fly it tomorrow.... "
Are you planning to address this? |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
264
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:23:00 -
[98] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Many people in situations similar to mine can currently fly the Archon with these skills: BS at V, JDO at 1, and Amarr Carrier at I.....
After this change, I will not be able to fly the Archon, as I wont have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC
CCP CLEARLY state "if we can fly it today, we can fly it tomorrow.... "
Are you planning to address this?
You will still have the Carrier skill trained, so you can fly the ship. What you may NOT be able to do, is train the Carrier skill further. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
51
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Many people in situations similar to mine can currently fly the Archon with these skills: BS at V, JDO at 1, and Amarr Carrier at I.....
After this change, I will not be able to fly the Archon, as I wont have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC
CCP CLEARLY state "if we can fly it today, we can fly it tomorrow.... "
Are you planning to address this?
You will be able to fly it. You won't be able to train Amarr Carrier 2 until you have the prereqs met. |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
299
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:24:00 -
[100] - Quote
So, when are the guns/launchers going to get the same treatment? Those skill trees have the same derpy 2-dimensional non-sensical requirements as the ships had.
For example, with hybrid weapons, It's pretty dumb that in order to train Large Blaster Specialization you have to train the smaller specializations to 4 as well as all of the hybrid weapon skills to 5. By the time you can even upload the Large BLaster Spec skill, you'll already have "specialized" in everything, making the term "specialization" a bit moot ;) GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
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ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
205
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:27:00 -
[101] - Quote
i am curius as to why the decision to have all all the warfare skills as lvl 5 before getting into a command ship even if the command ship is speced for armor rather than shield, this seems like an odd choice, and for a sec there i also though you guys were gunna give me all the warfare skills to V as well :-P |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4354
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:FinalFlash84 wrote:According to your explanation, shouldn't the DD prereqs (like Science V, EPW V and AWU V) also be added to the titan?
edit: Also Fighter V and EW V for supercarriers Ideally, yes, but we wanted to keep close hard training times, so we had to take a pick between the Doomsday and the Jump Portal. given current titan usage you picked wrong: the dd is required, the jpg is optional |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
157
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:30:00 -
[103] - Quote
Irregessa wrote:So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.
If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?
edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them.
that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1781
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:32:00 -
[104] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Many people in situations similar to mine can currently fly the Archon with these skills: BS at V, JDO at 1, and Amarr Carrier at I.....
After this change, I will not be able to fly the Archon, as I wont have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC
CCP CLEARLY state "if we can fly it today, we can fly it tomorrow.... "
Are you planning to address this?
You will still have the Carrier skill trained, so you can fly the ship. What you may NOT be able to do, is train the Carrier skill further.
But I do have the carrier skill... and can easily fly EVERY CARRIER In the game simply by training it now.....
To put it blatantly....
Today, I CAN FLY any regular carrier in this game.... (although I've only skill trained on the archon).
I do NOT have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC....
With the changes, I could NOT FLY a regular carrier when the skiil changes happen....
This is a direct contradiction to the quote: If you can fly it today, you can fly it tomorrow....
How does CCP plan to address this? |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
157
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:32:00 -
[105] - Quote
ITTigerClawIK wrote:i am curius as to why the decision to have all all the warfare skills as lvl 5 before getting into a command ship even if the command ship is speced for armor rather than shield, this seems like an odd choice, and for a sec there i also though you guys were gunna give me all the warfare skills to V as well :-P
except that command ships isn't a racial skill, so no telling if the pilot will be armor/shield. |
Artemis Picoazaksat
BLOOM. Verge of Collapse
50
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
So let me get this Straight:
I have BC5 and Destroyer 5 so I am fine on the T1 BC and Destroyers
If I want to continue to just use my carrier as a Ship Hauler. I will have to get Capital Ships 4 as it is currently only at 3?
If I want to use all the Command Ship that I can Currently I will have to get ALL the leadership skills to 5!? If that is the case then it is ridiculous and adds 51 Days of training for link I don't use.
For my Freighter ALT to continue to use it Charon I am going to have to train Advanced Spaceship Command 5 which is currently at Advanced Spaceship Command 4 adding 23 Days so if I don't have it by the time the Patch Hits, what? I cannot use it anymore? IF so that is complete BS!
And on all three of my Mining ALT's I am going to have to training Mining Frigate 3.
This would all be achievable if all these Characters where on separate accounts but I am going to get completely screwed on some of them.. so thanks for that...................................................................................... |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3677
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:37:00 -
[107] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Awesome change all in all, even though the imbusement has a big chance to completely mess with my skill plans. :)
Missing one single piece of information.
The EXACT datetime. You wrote to tell us "exactly [...] when this is happening". The only thing that can be interpreted as a date is 'within the Summer 2013 expansion". That is hardly exact.
How about something like, you know, a DATE? They can't give you what they don't know. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
264
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:37:00 -
[108] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:tgl3 wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Many people in situations similar to mine can currently fly the Archon with these skills: BS at V, JDO at 1, and Amarr Carrier at I.....
After this change, I will not be able to fly the Archon, as I wont have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC
CCP CLEARLY state "if we can fly it today, we can fly it tomorrow.... "
Are you planning to address this?
You will still have the Carrier skill trained, so you can fly the ship. What you may NOT be able to do, is train the Carrier skill further. But I do have the carrier skill... and can easily fly EVERY CARRIER In the game simply by training it now..... To put it blatantly.... Today, I CAN FLY any regular carrier in this game.... (although I've only skill trained on the archon). I do NOT have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC.... With the changes, I could NOT FLY a regular carrier when the skiil changes happen.... This is a direct contradiction to the quote: If you can fly it today, you can fly it tomorrow.... How does CCP plan to address this? If you do not have the other carrier skills trained, then you cannot fly them and therefore would not be able to after the change regardless.
Quote:*Edit* I misread the post above me.... so I could continue to fly the archon.... I just wouldn't be able to further train it until the Correct Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
Madlof Chev
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
103
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:38:00 -
[109] - Quote
calm yourselves, the world isn't ending
Now, I've seen quite a few "OH GOD THE REQUIREMENTS FOR MY FAVORITE SHIP ARE CHANGING UNDER ME MY LIFE NO LONGER MAKES SENSE" posts, so let's clear this up:
The most important thing to know about this is the way that the nested skill system in EVE works.
As long as you have the top level prerequisites for a ship, regardless of what their pre-requisites are, you will still be able to use that ship. Here's an example (we'll use the Revelation).
The main additions here are requiring Capital Ships III and Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration I (thereby requiring Advanced Weapon Upgrades V).
Now, you ask, what if I all ready have a Revelation that I'm able to fly now? Am I no longer able to fly it? Do I get Siege and Capital Ships III for free?
The answer to both of those questions is no. Due to you already having JDO I, Capital Ships I, and Amarr Dreadnought I, the prerequisites system no longer cares about everything nested underneath it.
This works the same with T2 guns - if you have specialization skills but lose Turret V, you keep your ability to use those T2 guns. You can no longer train the skills any further if you don't have the prerequisites for the skill, but you keep the skills as they are.
Thankfully, CCP's prerequisites for a lot of things are pretty sane and things that you want anyway to fly that class of ship (apart from Energy Grid Upgrades V for HACs what the christ), so you will probably end up training those prereqs anyway if you don't have them.
To sum up:
Yes, you can still fly your ships. No, you won't get any free SP. Yes, you should probably train those prerequisites anyway. |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
51
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:38:00 -
[110] - Quote
Artemis Picoazaksat wrote:So let me get this Straight:
I have BC5 and Destroyer 5 so I am fine on the T1 BC and Destroyers
If I want to continue to just use my carrier as a Ship Hauler. I will have to get Capital Ships 4 as it is currently only at 3?
If I want to use all the Command Ship that I can Currently I will have to get ALL the leadership skills to 5!? If that is the case then it is ridiculous and adds 51 Days of training for link I don't use.
For my Freighter ALT to continue to use it Charon I am going to have to train Advanced Spaceship Command 5 which is currently at Advanced Spaceship Command 4 adding 23 Days so if I don't have it by the time the Patch Hits, what? I cannot use it anymore? IF so that is complete BS!
And on all three of my Mining ALT's I am going to have to training Mining Frigate 3.
This would all be achievable if all these Characters where on separate accounts but I am going to get completely screwed on some of them.. so thanks for that......................................................................................
None of that is true. There has just been a failure to communicate. |
|
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
240
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:38:00 -
[111] - Quote
Artemis Picoazaksat wrote:So let me get this Straight: You misunderstood. If you can fly it now, you'll get all skills to fly them later for free. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
Artemis Picoazaksat wrote:So let me get this Straight:
I have BC5 and Destroyer 5 so I am fine on the T1 BC and Destroyers
If I want to continue to just use my carrier as a Ship Hauler. I will have to get Capital Ships 4 as it is currently only at 3?
If I want to use all the Command Ship that I can Currently I will have to get ALL the leadership skills to 5!? If that is the case then it is ridiculous and adds 51 Days of training for link I don't use.
For my Freighter ALT to continue to use it Charon I am going to have to train Advanced Spaceship Command 5 which is currently at Advanced Spaceship Command 4 adding 23 Days so if I don't have it by the time the Patch Hits, what? I cannot use it anymore? IF so that is complete BS!
And on all three of my Mining ALT's I am going to have to training Mining Frigate 3.
This would all be achievable if all these Characters where on separate accounts but I am going to get completely screwed on some of them.. so thanks for that......................................................................................
Please reread some of the comments that were already answered, specifically those making a distinction between ship and skill requirements.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3677
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:42:00 -
[113] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:Artemis Picoazaksat wrote:So let me get this Straight: You misunderstood. If you can fly it now, you'll get all skills to fly them later for free. No, that's not true at all. If you can fly it now, you already have all the skills to fly it even after the change.
For example, I have Heavy Assault Ships trained to 4, but I do not have Energy Grid Upgrades 5. When the skill requirements are changed, the HAS (will become HAC) skill will have a prerequisite of EGU 5. Since I already have HAS injected I don't need EGU 5 in order to train it, nor will I need it to fly my Zealot. Essentially I'll be grandfathered in. However CCP will not give me EGU 5. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
120
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:45:00 -
[114] - Quote
Wow thank god I got my HAC skill already, Energy Grid Upgrades V is a horrible skill to have to train, would be nice to include a reasoning why. If it was to keep a similar training time thats kinda lame.
So does this also mean I can't train my HAC skill from IV to V without training EGU V first after patch hits? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3677
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:46:00 -
[115] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:Wow thank god I got my HAC skill already, Energy Grid Upgrades V is a horrible skill to have to train, would be nice to include a reasoning why. If it was to keep a similar training time thats kinda lame.
So does this also mean I can't train my HAC skill from IV to V without training EGU V first after patch hits? See above. Several people in this thread have stated that they have been able to train skills even after losing a prerequisite for that skill (for example, a cyno alt loses electronics 5, but is still able to train cyno field generation). Prerequisites are required to inject the skill, beyond that they do not affect your ability to train it or use any items or ships that are unlocked by that skill. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Juwi Kotch
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:47:00 -
[116] - Quote
Generally, I like the changes. I can then train the Carrier, Dread, and Freighter skills instantly, without having to train the racial Battleship and Industrial skills to lvl5 first, since I have all non-Gallente already to lvl3. Since I have all the other prereq skills for my Gallente specialization already (with the exception of Capital Ships, which I have only at lvl3 atm, but which is not very problematic to train to lvl4), I'm fine. For me, this change reduces training time for non-Gallente cap ships by months. And just in time, as this was on my plan for the second half of this year. "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451 |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
51
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:50:00 -
[117] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:Wow thank god I got my HAC skill already, Energy Grid Upgrades V is a horrible skill to have to train, would be nice to include a reasoning why. If it was to keep a similar training time thats kinda lame.
So does this also mean I can't train my HAC skill from IV to V without training EGU V first after patch hits? See above. Several people in this thread have stated that they have been able to train skills even after losing a prerequisite for that skill (for example, a cyno alt loses electronics 5, but is still able to train cyno field generation). Prerequisites are required to inject the skill, beyond that they do not affect your ability to train it or use any items or ships that are unlocked by that skill.
Except several people have said the reverse, and a dev has essentially confirmed it (though not unambiguously, IMO).
|
Ingen Kerr
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:51:00 -
[118] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:Dedicated supercap chars should get their skillpoints for racial BS 4 and 5 reimbursed.
How about all these drones I can't use anymore? |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:51:00 -
[119] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:FinalFlash84 wrote:According to your explanation, shouldn't the DD prereqs (like Science V, EPW V and AWU V) also be added to the titan?
edit: Also Fighter V and EW V for supercarriers Ideally, yes, but we wanted to keep close hard training times, so we had to take a pick between the Doomsday and the Jump Portal.
Do it right!
it is not suppose to be easy to get into a titan or a supercarrier, add them both to the requisites list: Doomsday + Jump Portal
In the case of a super carrier add Fighter Bombers to the requirements and done it right, nobody is supose to fly one without them anyway... Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Bariolage
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:52:00 -
[120] - Quote
Most thorough blog post ever. 6 pages of questions in 3 hours. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3677
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:53:00 -
[121] - Quote
I'm pretty sure the goal of balancing wasn't to arbitrarily add training time to things. It's not as if most super pilots don't train these things before getting in them anyway. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:53:00 -
[122] - Quote
Iosue wrote:Irregessa wrote:So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.
If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?
edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them. that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones. well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2313
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:55:00 -
[123] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Komisches wrote:Brain is tired, missed something in that read: if i have frigate5/cruiser5 (across all races already) battlecruisers 5 and destroyers 5 making me able to fly all the damn ships, what the hell happens to all my skills? Simple, if you have all these skills to 5 then you are golden:
- Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5 will be removed from your character sheet
- We will give you Amarr Destroyer 5, Caldari Destroyer 5, Gallente Destroyer 5, Minmatar Destroyer 5, Amarr Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5, Gallente Battlecruiser 5 and Minmatar Battlecruiser 5 because you had all racial frigates and cruisers skills past 3 on top of Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5.
That's explained in the blog Bam! My clones just got more expensive
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3678
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:56:00 -
[124] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:Iosue wrote:Irregessa wrote:So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.
If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?
edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them. that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones. well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said. Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:58:00 -
[125] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said. Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.
reading is important:
CCP RubberBAND wrote: Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.
so if there is a NEW prereq for a skill you already have trained, you will be able to fly the ship BUT not be able to train the skill until you meet the new prereq |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1690
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:01:00 -
[126] - Quote
Quote:Still looking at the tree above, some tech 2 ships require sets of skills that are not relevant to the hull you are specializing into.
Then later...
Quote: Recon Ships
- Cloaking 4 added as skill requirement of the Recon Ships skill
So to fly a Curse, Rook, Huginn or Lachesis, none of which get bonuses to fit or fly with cloaks, you're adding a cloaking skill requirement?
The relevance to the hull being specialized into is lacking.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2313
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:01:00 -
[127] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:seth Hendar wrote:Iosue wrote:Irregessa wrote:So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.
If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?
edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them. that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones. well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said. Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked. I've had this situation happen to me a few times. If the skill is injected you can train it... however sometimes things get a little buggy. I remember I had to have a GM help me one time because I had a skill that got stuck with the skill training completion imminent error... the GM fixed me but I went back and fixed the prerequisite skills just so I wouldn't have to go through that again. YES - if a skill is injected you can train it regardless of whether or not you have the pre-reqs, just be prepared for a little potential buggyness. (edit: also, I could see a situation where a bonus is based on a pre-req that you didn't have and you ended up multiplying by zero or some negative number. That could suck for you...)
|
Laurinius
Uplifting Infernal Paradise Zombie Ninja Space Bears
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:02:00 -
[128] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said. Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.
reading is important: CCP RubberBAND wrote: Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.
Precise description is also important: With "train", did he mean "inject (and train)" or "train (when already injected)"? |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
94
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:02:00 -
[129] - Quote
squees with delight!!!
as a max leadership pilot (yes even mining director and fleet command) this first step towards making my beloved command ships viable again instead of the mind numbing alt work of offgrid t3s is filling me with almost as much love as when i saw my husband for the first time!
almost
*pets her sad looking damnation* there there girl... soon.. soon
Linda |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:05:00 -
[130] - Quote
Gogela wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:seth Hendar wrote:Iosue wrote:Irregessa wrote:So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.
If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?
edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them. that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones. well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said. Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked. I've had this situation happen to me a few times. If the skill is injected you can train it... however sometimes things get a little buggy. I remember I had to have a GM help me one time because I had a skill that got stuck with the skill training completion imminent error... the GM fixed me but I went back and fixed the prerequisite skills just so I wouldn't have to go through that again. YES - if a skill is injected you can train it regardless of whether or not you have the pre-reqs, just be prepared for a little potential buggyness. wich make sens, because the only way to loose SP is loosing a pod with not upgraded enought clone.
and the SP loos hits the latest / currently training skill, so there is now way that this impact a skill prereq |
|
Sturmwolke
357
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:05:00 -
[131] - Quote
Excellent write-up. Excellent details. Thumbs up from me.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1563
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:05:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Sarmatiko wrote: Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained. So for the Fenrir you will need to first have Advanced Spaceship Command at level V before you can start training Minmatar Freighter, but the prerequisite for that skill has changed. I'm not sure you got the question. Let me try:
Say I currently have Gallente Freighter 4 and Advanced Spaceship command 4. After the change I know I will still be able to fly my freighter. But will I be able to train Gallente Freighter to 5 after the change? Or do I have to get the Advanced Spaceship Command skill to 5 first? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:06:00 -
[133] - Quote
Laurinius wrote:seth Hendar wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said. Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.
reading is important: CCP RubberBAND wrote: Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.
Precise description is also important: With "train", did he mean "inject (and train)" or "train (when already injected)"?
i would go for train, because we were talking about skills already injected....
so unless you manage to inject a skill twice....
|
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:09:00 -
[134] - Quote
I would just like to confirm three changes in this dev blog as regards the CCP standard line that "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." :
Orca : ORE Industrial level 3 required. Mining Barge : Mining Frigate level 3 required. Freighter : Advanced Spaceship Command LEVEL 5 REQUIRED!
Does the CCP concept "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." apply to the above three vessels and the changes you wish to make to their skill requirements And if not then why not
The Orca & Mining Barge change are not that big a deal but the change to Freighters, if not given to those who can currently fly Freighters, is a serious lump of training - over thirty days if I'm not mistaken. This could temporarily disrupt courier services across New Eden so if you do not intend to give this skill to those who can fly Freighters at the changeover point I think you should do so. |
Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:09:00 -
[135] - Quote
Bariolage wrote:Most thorough blog post ever. 6 pages of questions in 3 hours. A lot of the questions are the same people asking the same thing. It was answered in the dev blog and answered several times in the thread.
It all comes down to people not knowing how nested requirements work.
(Also quite a few people not knowing the difference between the "X Warfare" skill and the "X Warfare Specialist" skill. |
Ogopogo Mu
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
103
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:09:00 -
[136] - Quote
ITT the Nighthawk is finally fixed by making it harder to train for. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2313
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:09:00 -
[137] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:Gogela wrote: I've had this situation happen to me a few times. If the skill is injected you can train it... however sometimes things get a little buggy. I remember I had to have a GM help me one time because I had a skill that got stuck with the skill training completion imminent error... the GM fixed me but I went back and fixed the prerequisite skills just so I wouldn't have to go through that again. YES - if a skill is injected you can train it regardless of whether or not you have the pre-reqs, just be prepared for a little potential buggyness.
wich make sens, because the only way to loose SP is loosing a pod with not upgraded enought clone. and the SP loos hits the latest / currently training skill, so there is now way that this impact a skill prereq Actually they've changed skill reqs before on other stuff. I don't remember all of them, but for one of them they were changing something about shields while I was training capital shields boosters to one and I barely had the old pre-reqs, and then they changed something and I didn't have them anymore. I've since trained V's in the pre-reqs... but at the time my cap shield booster training got stuck for several days... and even after the GM fixed it it was still acting weird. I don't wish that frustration on anyone else. Get the damn pre-reqs would be my advice.
Vincent Athena wrote: I'm not sure you got the question. Let me try:
Say I currently have Gallente Freighter 4 and Advanced Spaceship command 4. After the change I know I will still be able to fly my freighter. But will I be able to train Gallente Freighter to 5 after the change? Or do I have to get the Advanced Spaceship Command skill to 5 first?
You could go freighter 5 w/o Advanced Spaceship Command to V b/c the gallente freighter skill is already injected.
|
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
55
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:10:00 -
[138] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Almost one year ago, CCP Ytterbium announced plans to split the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills into racial equivalents for each of the factions. This change will go through in the expansion planned for this summer and Ytterbium has penned all of the details into one dev blog. You can read it all here. Please remember that if you can fly it before the split, you can fly it after. This applies to all of the listed changes. We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread.
Ok i see some hole in case of skill reimbursement. This char: I fly electronic attack ships, and use them ... but i dont have Long Range Targeting LvL 5 - other skills where more important. So if i fly this now - will i get Long Range Targeting LvL 5 ?
|
Juwi Kotch
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:11:00 -
[139] - Quote
Lady Naween wrote:squees with delight!!!
as a max leadership pilot (yes even mining director and fleet command) this first step towards making my beloved command ships viable again instead of the mind numbing alt work of offgrid t3s is filling me with almost as much love as when i saw my husband for the first time! I'm on the same page. I'm not maxxed out in leadership, but with close to 6 mil SP I have no prereq problems at all to fly those ships. On the contrary, since I will get BC5 for all races, but don't have the racial cruisers at 5 (all at 4 atm, besides Gallente at 5) I will suddenly be able to jump into all command ships where I could enter the Gallente one only until then.
"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451 |
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:11:00 -
[140] - Quote
It is false and misleading to say "If you can fly it now, you will be able to fly it after the changes."
You only mean, "We will break the rules at the time of the change *just this one time*".
It is absolutely not necessary that someone has the required skills to fly a ship they can fly now. The "Keep your Medical Clone Insurance Up-to-Date" is a sad excuse to cover-up the changes made which truly could affect the ability to fly a ship one can fly now.
Further, given the number of SP that has been wasted training some skills to higher levels than necessary after the changes (OMG what a waste of my time to train Gallente Industrial V as well as others !!!), CCP should absolutely, without hestitation, give players any and all skills to full listed requirements that are now added to a ship we "can fly now" so that we truly can fly it after the changes.
These changes have been disruptive to our normal skill training. CCP announced almost a year ago some of these changes and warned to train them soon. The fact that the ship changes announced as Coming Soon TM were only minor tweaks to Titans escaped those players who were eager to blame those of us that did train these skill AS CCP TOLD US TO DO, and no doubt already had the skills trained anyway. AND, I trained them while I was neural mapped wrong and lost countless *DAYS* that could have been spent now when I am correctly neural mapped. Again, more reason to give us skills that we will ACTUALLY need to fly the ships we can fly now rather than just play lip service and give excuses that it will be OUR FAULT if we get podded without insurance. |
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:14:00 -
[141] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:I would just like to confirm three changes in this dev blog as regards the CCP standard line that "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." : Orca : ORE Industrial level 3 required. Mining Barge : Mining Frigate level 3 required. Freighter : Advanced Spaceship Command LEVEL 5 REQUIRED! Does the CCP concept "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." apply to the above three vessels and the changes you wish to make to their skill requirements And if not then why not
Yes, it applies.
This is not hard.
If you could fly it before, you can fly it after. Period.
The requirement to LEARN the freighter skill is changing. The requirement to FLY a freighter is to have learned the skill. If you learned it under the old pre-reqs, you're fine. If you wish to learn it in the future, you must meet the new pre-reqs.
The end.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:15:00 -
[142] - Quote
No, it doesn't come down to not reading the devblog-- but maybe you should with an open mind to problems that might exist for *OTHER* players.
The problem is that the new nested requirements are not necessarily skills some (obviously other) players HAD.
Drosal Inkunen wrote:Bariolage wrote:Most thorough blog post ever. 6 pages of questions in 3 hours. A lot of the questions are the same people asking the same thing. It was answered in the dev blog and answered several times in the thread. It all comes down to people not knowing how nested requirements work. (Also quite a few people not knowing the difference between the "X Warfare" skill and the "X Warfare Specialist" skill.
|
fukier
RISE of LEGION
775
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:16:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.
ok so from what i understand is i can already fly an astate
but after the changes i will have to train for 3 months so i can fly it again?
that really sucks tbh...
what happened to the whole if you can already fly it moto? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:18:00 -
[144] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:Almost one year ago, CCP Ytterbium announced plans to split the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills into racial equivalents for each of the factions. This change will go through in the expansion planned for this summer and Ytterbium has penned all of the details into one dev blog. You can read it all here. Please remember that if you can fly it before the split, you can fly it after. This applies to all of the listed changes. We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread. Ok i see some hole in case of skill reimbursement. This char: I fly electronic attack ships, and use them ... but i dont have Long Range Targeting LvL 5 - other skills where more important. So if i fly this now - will i get Long Range Targeting LvL 5 ?
No you wont get the Long Range Targeting skill at 5.
Yes you can still fly your EAS.
You may also feel special about having circumvented the new pre-reqs.
Simple rule is simple: If you could fly it before, you can fly it after.
You don't need the new pre-reqs if you already have the skill, NOR will you get them for free.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Sergi Arro
The Dark Space Initiative
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:20:00 -
[145] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.
I have a similar question regarding this. What about carrier pilots who only have Jump Drive Operation at I (the minimum) just to pilot the ship.
The blog says: -Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite -Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)
But it also says the whole "all the affected ships will still be flyable even after the change with no fancy reimbursement, provided you can fly them on Tranquility right now."
Will we not need to train the new skills (will they be given, etc.)?
Thanks |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
88
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:21:00 -
[146] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:FinalFlash84 wrote:According to your explanation, shouldn't the DD prereqs (like Science V, EPW V and AWU V) also be added to the titan?
edit: Also Fighter V and EW V for supercarriers Ideally, yes, but we wanted to keep close hard training times, so we had to take a pick between the Doomsday and the Jump Portal. Any chance you could go through DD skill and prune out Energy Pulse Weapons V? That seems like a throwback from when DDs were aoe bursts...
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1691
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:22:00 -
[147] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:It is false and misleading to say "If you can fly it now, you will be able to fly it after the changes."
You only mean, "We will break the rules at the time of the change *just this one time*".
It is absolutely not necessary that someone has the required skills to fly a ship they can fly now. The "Keep your Medical Clone Insurance Up-to-Date" is a sad excuse to cover-up the changes made which truly could affect the ability to fly a ship one can fly now. ...
Again, more reason to give us skills that we will ACTUALLY need to fly the ships we can fly now rather than just play lip service and give excuses that it will be OUR FAULT if we get podded without insurance.
It is always your fault if you get podded without a proper clone update. You just want free skill points. Move along.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Waista
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:24:00 -
[148] - Quote
So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.
They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .
This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct? |
Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:25:00 -
[149] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:No, it doesn't come down to not reading the devblog-- but maybe you should with an open mind to problems that might exist for *OTHER* players. The problem is that the new nested requirements are not necessarily skills some (obviously other) players HAD. Drosal Inkunen wrote:Bariolage wrote:Most thorough blog post ever. 6 pages of questions in 3 hours. A lot of the questions are the same people asking the same thing. It was answered in the dev blog and answered several times in the thread. It all comes down to people not knowing how nested requirements work. (Also quite a few people not knowing the difference between the "X Warfare" skill and the "X Warfare Specialist" skill.
I just double checked and none of the ships had the requirements to actually fly them changed, except to be lower and the same skills.
It affects people who can't fly the ship yet, not those who can fly it now. Most of the changes were to what is required to train the actual skills required to fly the ship. These "other" players you accuse me of not having an open mind to can still use their ships. If they can't use the ship, then they now know to either train it quickly or start down the new skill path.
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1692
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:27:00 -
[150] - Quote
Waista wrote:So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.
They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .
This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct?
Without double-checking your actual requirements, yes. You're thinking along the right path.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
|
seth Hendar
I love you miners
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:28:00 -
[151] - Quote
Waista wrote:So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.
They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .
This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct?
as i understood, they will be stuck to the level of command ship they have the day of the update, and will not be able to skill it more after the update without gettin the new prereq first
|
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:28:00 -
[152] - Quote
Waista wrote:So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.
They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .
This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct?
Correct. Now is the time to grandfather yourself into any ship class you can currently access now that will require different prereqs this summer. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
994
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:29:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.
So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented. I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.
However, this whole plan is pandering to low SP players climbing into ships they should not be flying. Flying a BS requires a ton more support skills than any ship skills. By fast-tracking the ability to climb into larger ships, newer players will also bypass the gameplay time (also called experience) necessary to recognize the need to learn many, many unglamorous, but critical ship support skills, before they climb into an expensive hull.
We are going to see ever MORE people running around in pricey ships who can't even fit a T2 tank.
The whole concept you are implementing is idiotic. You would far better serve the new player community by creating a guide that details all the ship support skills and why people should train the vast majority to V before climbing into any ship more expensive than a T1 cruiser. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3678
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:31:00 -
[154] - Quote
My god. Read the damn thread. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Adaahh Gee
Rock jockeyz High Rollers
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:31:00 -
[155] - Quote
For sale: Iteron's Mk1 thru Mk4, now no longer required, require funds to purchase Iteron 5 BPO. |
Pasha Cracken
Boris Johnson's Love Children
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:32:00 -
[156] - Quote
I do like most of the changes..
However as a capital pilot I do not agree with the Jump fuel and Jump drive cal skills being required. The way it is not is fine because it allows there to be a definition between an "average" capital pilot and a great capital pilot because they dedicate more time to the skills.
It also allows for super pilots to train a sitter alt in a reasonable time. Most of that additional time would come from training those fuel and cal skills, without it the training time would be much quicker and not 146 days.
I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level?
If the answer is yes, then please pass me the same amount in skill points so I can put them somewhere else..... I spent my time training JDC 5 and JFC 4 so I can be a good capital pilot, if people are just going to get bumped to the required levels then there needs to be some sort of compensation to people who actually spent their training time to reach it anyways. |
Garai Nolen
Xyjax
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:33:00 -
[157] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Marsaac wrote:Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me. You will still be able to fly it. The top skill in the tree is the only one that actually determines your ability to fly a ship. The Fenrir before and after will require: Primary: Advanced Spaceship Command Level I Secondary: Minmatar Freighter Level I So you can fly it even though you do not have Advanced Spaceship Command at Level V.
I don't understand why you aren't removing the Advanced Spaceship Command Level I as the primary skill entirely. As per the nested skill explanation, the same rules would apply just fine if Minmatar Freighter Level I was the primary (and only) skill instead. If you've already trained the freighter skill then it you can keep flying it, even if ASC is not level V.
Right now with the planned changes, leaving ASC level I as the "primary" skill is super-confusing and seems pointless.
On a similar vein of reducing confusion, any chance on renaming "Capital Ships" and "Capital Industrial Ships" to something like "Capital Spaceship Command" and "Industrial Spaceship Command"? I know those are more verbose but it would make a lot more sense as to where those skills fit in the overall scheme. |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
264
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:34:00 -
[158] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them. So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented. I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.
Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3678
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:34:00 -
[159] - Quote
Pasha Cracken wrote:I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level? The answer is quite obviously no. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
266
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:36:00 -
[160] - Quote
Pasha Cracken wrote:
I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level?
No, since you have the Amarr Carrier skill trained/injected already, you do not then need the new pre-requisites to inject it. Because it is already injected. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1564
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:36:00 -
[161] - Quote
Pasha Cracken wrote:I do like most of the changes..
However as a capital pilot I do not agree with the Jump fuel and Jump drive cal skills being required. The way it is not is fine because it allows there to be a definition between an "average" capital pilot and a great capital pilot because they dedicate more time to the skills.
It also allows for super pilots to train a sitter alt in a reasonable time. Most of that additional time would come from training those fuel and cal skills, without it the training time would be much quicker and not 146 days.
I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level?
If the answer is yes, then please pass me the same amount in skill points so I can put them somewhere else..... I spent my time training JDC 5 and JFC 4 so I can be a good capital pilot, if people are just going to get bumped to the required levels then there needs to be some sort of compensation to people who actually spent their training time to reach it anyways.
You, or anyone else, will not get the new skills. You will be able to fly the ship.
The prereqs are needed to get the skill, not to fly the ship. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Adaahh Gee
Rock jockeyz High Rollers
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:37:00 -
[162] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them. So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented. I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill. Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine.
but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs??? |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
547
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:37:00 -
[163] - Quote
badposting wrote:The skills you added to caps were ones you needed anyway (except capships IV) so the effective training time for caps is now way shorter. Like we needed that.
Absolutely.
This is one of the most ******** ideas you have come up with in ages, and that takes some doing. |
PsychoBitch
Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo
275
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:38:00 -
[164] - Quote
Swell. CAN WE CONCENTRATE ON THE THINGS THAT ARE BUSTED NOW! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3680
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:38:00 -
[165] - Quote
I could probably copy and paste the same exact response to every reply in this thread and I'd still be answering their questions. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
266
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:38:00 -
[166] - Quote
Adaahh Gee wrote:tgl3 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them. So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented. I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill. Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine. but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs??? This is the part that is in dispute. As far as I know, you should be able to train it fine since the only check on skills is done on injecting the skillbook, but still waiting on Dev confirmation of this. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
266
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:39:00 -
[167] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I could probably copy and paste the same exact response to every reply in this thread and I'd still be answering their questions. No you can *still* fly the shi- oh, sorry. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1693
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:39:00 -
[168] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them. So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented. I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill. However, this whole plan is pandering to low SP players climbing into ships they should not be flying. Flying a BS requires a ton more support skills than any ship skills. By fast-tracking the ability to climb into larger ships, newer players will also bypass the gameplay time (also called experience) necessary to recognize the need to learn many, many unglamorous, but critical ship support skills, before they climb into an expensive hull. We are going to see ever MORE people running around in pricey ships who can't even fit a T2 tank. The whole concept you are implementing is idiotic. You would far better serve the new player community by creating a guide that details all the ship support skills and why people should train the vast majority to V before climbing into any ship more expensive than a T1 cruiser.
As usual, Dinsdale is wrong. Ignore his post(s).
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3680
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:40:00 -
[169] - Quote
Adaahh Gee wrote:but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs??? We don't know the answer to that. CCP doesn't seem to understand how to answer that question without being ambiguous. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:42:00 -
[170] - Quote
Ethan Revenant wrote:If this devblog comes to pass, the distinction between fleet and field command ships will vanish. (I hope this only means that the fleet command ships will get a full set of highs of their weapons and not have their other bonuses nixed in favor of combat bonuses. I can dream, okay.)
Erm go read: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530 from back in November.
"We are removing the distinction between GÇ£fleetGÇ¥ and GÇ£fieldGÇ¥ Command Ships. All of them will now have 3% bonuses to two Warfare Link fields and be able to fit three warfare link modules simultaneously (instead of 3 for fleet versions only). That also means that the previous fleet Command Ships will be rebalanced to fit combat roles."
|
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1564
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:42:00 -
[171] - Quote
Adaahh Gee wrote:tgl3 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:V'Kanth Agalder wrote:GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion? Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them. So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented. I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill. Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine. but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs??? Weve gotten conflicting answers to this, but most answers are: The prereq to training any skill higher is to have that skill injected, nothing more. But.......We await CCP confirmation. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:44:00 -
[172] - Quote
Green Gambit wrote:Ethan Revenant wrote:If this devblog comes to pass, the distinction between fleet and field command ships will vanish. (I hope this only means that the fleet command ships will get a full set of highs of their weapons and not have their other bonuses nixed in favor of combat bonuses. I can dream, okay.) Erm go read: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530 from back in November. "We are removing the distinction between GÇ£fleetGÇ¥ and GÇ£fieldGÇ¥ Command Ships. All of them will now have 3% bonuses to two Warfare Link fields and be able to fit three warfare link modules simultaneously (instead of 3 for fleet versions only). That also means that the previous fleet Command Ships will be rebalanced to fit combat roles."
Protip: that was the devblog I linked and the context for the parenthetical statement. |
Capqu
Love Squad
79
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:48:00 -
[173] - Quote
Any word on fixing guns to be similar?
Currently t2 large guns require large spec, which requires med spec to be at 4 and med guns to be at 5, and med spec requires small guns to be at 5 and small spec to be at 4.
Defeats the "T2 is specialization" thing you guys are going for when using T2 hybrids requires you to specialize in all the smaller hybrids first.
Similarlly T1 capital guns require Large guns to V, which is pretty silly too imo.
Great work on the ship changes though, please don't take this as a complaint. http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
78
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:51:00 -
[174] - Quote
Think I just slipped off that learning curve cliff again. Gonna have to read that blog 8 or 10 more times. blblblblblblblblblbl GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ½
...end transmission... |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
88
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:51:00 -
[175] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Marsaac wrote:Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me. You will still be able to fly it. The top skill in the tree is the only one that actually determines your ability to fly a ship. The Fenrir before and after will require: Primary: Advanced Spaceship Command Level I Secondary: Minmatar Freighter Level I So you can fly it even though you do not have Advanced Spaceship Command at Level V. Ok, so since some of the nested skill requirements are changing, what I'm reading here is that all I'll need post-patch is Primary Skill and Secondary Skill.
My question is this: if I train today for, say Command Ships (skill), and I just inject and train it to level 1, which means I could fly a command ship after the changes, provided I have trained for BC V now (as well as the Frig/Cruiser requirements currently required for all the BCs), then could I train up the Command Ships (skill) post-patch, even if I wouldn't have all the link nested skills trained? And even if I couldn't fly a Command Ship now? (Because post-patch, I'd have the primary and secondary skills required.)
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Cameron Zero
Red Federation
154
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:51:00 -
[176] - Quote
Is this example correct?
As long as you have all racial frigates trained to at least III, you'll get all the racial destroyer skills set to whatever your destroyers skill is when the change occurs. Same is true for the racial cruisers and battlecruiser skill.
Example:
On patch day, you have Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatar frigates trained to IV. You have Caldari frigates trained to II. Your destroyer skill is IV. Once the patch his, you will lose Destroyers IV and gain Amarr Destroyers IV, Gallente Destroyers IV, and Minmatar Destroyers IV. You will not get Caldari Destroyers IV because you didn't train the corresponding racial frigate skill to at least III.
(Replace frigate with cruiser, and destroyer with battlecruiser, for that part of it.) "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. GǪ" |
Metal Mini
The 12th Legion Unclaimed.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:52:00 -
[177] - Quote
So much for if you can fly it before you can fly it after. I can currently fly the Mimitar and Amarr command ships but dont have the warfare skills trained at all. If I am reading this right. Once the changes take place I wont be able to fly these ships at all unless I train them. I am ok with most of the changes but this one really pisses me off. |
SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars Initiative Mercenaries
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:54:00 -
[178] - Quote
I think you need to add something in the blog that explains exactly how 'if you can fly it now, you'll be able to fly it when the skill change happens' works within the game itself. I understand that a ship only looks at the primary skill and that once a skill is injected, the checks for secondary skills is already done, but I think most people in this thread have simply missed that point (even though you say it in the thread). I think too many people just read blog and jump to panic mode in the thread, so writing that clearly in the blog might reduce a little of that.
On to a question to which I don't really expect to like the answer - have you considered if players could petition to be reimbursed for the mining barge skill if they only trained that for an Orca? I can understand somewhat if you decide not to considering that would open the gates to reimbursement on other ships that lose some odd requirements, but I feel like the Orca is odd with it being a lvl 5 ship skill being completely removed. Any thoughts on that? |
Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:54:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ethan Revenant wrote:Protip: that was the devblog I linked and the context for the parenthetical statement.
Ah sorry yes. I blame the brain damage from reading the same question/response cycle so many times in the thread so far |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
88
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:56:00 -
[180] - Quote
Cameron Zero wrote:Is this example correct?
As long as you have all racial frigates trained to at least III, you'll get all the racial destroyer skills set to whatever your destroyers skill is when the change occurs. Same is true for the racial cruisers and battlecruiser skill.
Example:
On patch day, you have Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatar frigates trained to IV. You have Caldari frigates trained to II. Your destroyer skill is IV. Once the patch his, you will lose Destroyers IV and gain Amarr Destroyers IV, Gallente Destroyers IV, and Minmatar Destroyers IV. You will not get Caldari Destroyers IV because you didn't train the corresponding racial frigate skill to at least III.
(Replace frigate with cruiser, and destroyer with battlecruiser, for that part of it.) Yes that is correct. You will only get [Racial] Destroyers skill for whichever races you have [Racial] Frigate skill trained to III, and you will only get [Racial] Battlecruiser skill for whatever races you have [Racial] Frigate IV and [Racial] Cruiser III.
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Intex Encapor
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:56:00 -
[181] - Quote
bah extra sp will push me up one clone level, i seriously hate you now |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1582
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:58:00 -
[182] - Quote
Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
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Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:58:00 -
[183] - Quote
Green Gambit wrote:Ethan Revenant wrote:Protip: that was the devblog I linked and the context for the parenthetical statement. Ah sorry yes. I blame the brain damage from reading the same question/response cycle so many times in the thread so far
No worries. I was perplexed, that's all. I too am starting to see "but will I still be able to fly x?" in every line of text... |
C DeLeon
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
101
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:59:00 -
[184] - Quote
If I have the "Interdictors" lvl1 skill but I don't have the "Propulsion Jamming" lvl5 and "Graviton Physics" lvl1 yet what's gonna happen with my "Interdictors" skill and the ability to fly a dictor (even without interdiction sphere launcher)? Am I gonna loose the skill and the ability to be able to fly a dictor? I know that dictor without bubble is pretty much useless but it would be good to know. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3681
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:00:00 -
[185] - Quote
Intex Encapor wrote:bah extra sp will push me up one clone level, i seriously hate you now And they said they were going to implement something to mitigate the impact. So much for that... Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3681
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:00:00 -
[186] - Quote
C DeLeon wrote:If I have the "Interdictors" lvl1 skill but I don't have the "Propulsion Jamming" lvl5 and "Graviton Physics" lvl1 yet what's gonna happen with my "Interdictors" skill and the ability to fly a dictor (even without interdiction sphere launcher)? Am I gonna loose the skill and the ability to be able to fly a dictor? I know that there isn't much of use of a dictor without bubble but it would be good to know. Please, PLEASE read the thread, your questions have been answered several times. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
88
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:01:00 -
[187] - Quote
Metal Mini wrote:So much for if you can fly it before you can fly it after. I can currently fly the Mimitar and Amarr command ships but dont have the warfare skills trained at all. If I am reading this right. Once the changes take place I wont be able to fly these ships at all unless I train them. I am ok with most of the changes but this one really pisses me off. You're misunderstanding the requirements. All you will need is the Primary Skill and Secondary Skill (and Tertiary Skill, where applicable) to fly the ships post-patch. (These skills are the ones at the very top of the nested skill tree.)
You cannot train for Command Ships, in your example, after the patch unless you have the nested requirements already. But if you can fly it now, you can fly it after, since you will have the requisite Amarr Battlecruiser V and Minmatar Battlecruiser V, as well as Command Ships I.
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tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
268
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:02:00 -
[188] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained. We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list] Please do change it. :( Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3681
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:03:00 -
[189] - Quote
The only skills you have to be concerned about in the prerequisites are those that are fully left-justified (also the top of the list in each category). If you have those, the others don't matter. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1695
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:03:00 -
[190] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
We appreciate the confirmation, thanks!
FWIW, it doesn't bother me which way you decide on the further training issue, but you may end up with bugs or complaints post-patch if you don't stop/address everyone's training queue who is training any skill for which the requirements have changed.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
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Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:04:00 -
[191] - Quote
Intex Encapor wrote:bah extra sp will push me up one clone level, i seriously hate you now CCP Should reduce all clone costs because of this change.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3681
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:05:00 -
[192] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. I think I speak for everyone when I say that this would be a really good change to make, otherwise you're liable to **** quite a few people off. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
112
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:11:00 -
[193] - Quote
Looks good, now when is Soundwave removing clone costs like he said he wanted to do in the minutes last summer? Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1566
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:12:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Please change it to "The prereq to training a skill is having that skill injected". Reason: Ive already trained the needed prereq skills under the old system in order to get the skill under the old system. Ive paid my dues. Telling me to pay them again is not cool. The only way to make it cool would be to reimburse those prereqs no longer needed so I can move the SP to the new ones that are needed. But that would be a huge can of worms. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Saithe
Grumpy Old Spacevets
63
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:12:00 -
[195] - Quote
Because I am lazy, and don't care to read an entire wall of text in its entirety (or even check this thread for the answer), would someone mind answering me the following question:
I currently have every race frigate, cruiser, and battleship skill trained to 5, as well as destroyers and battlecruisers 5.
With these new changes, will I automatically be given each race destroyer/battlecruiser skill to 5? Or will I have to reacquire 3 of the 4?
The blog post, from what I was able to read, was not too clear on that. I assume, because it's stated that 'if you can fly it now, you'll be able to fly it post-change', I will be given the racial destroyer/battlecruiser skills to the currently trained level of the des/bc skill, according to the trained racial frig skills currently. |
C DeLeon
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
101
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:13:00 -
[196] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:C DeLeon wrote:If I have the "Interdictors" lvl1 skill but I don't have the "Propulsion Jamming" lvl5 and "Graviton Physics" lvl1 yet what's gonna happen with my "Interdictors" skill and the ability to fly a dictor (even without interdiction sphere launcher)? Am I gonna loose the skill and the ability to be able to fly a dictor? I know that there isn't much of use of a dictor without bubble but it would be good to know. Please, PLEASE read the thread, your questions have been answered several times. I searched for the word "interdic" on every page but found no answer. The official answer arrived after I started to write my comment. There is no reason to be a smartass about it. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1583
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:15:00 -
[197] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Please change it to "The prereq to training a skill is having that skill injected". Reason: Ive already trained the needed prereq skills under the old system in order to get the skill under the old system. Ive paid my dues. Telling me to pay them again is not cool. The only way to make it cool would be to reimburse those prereqs no longer needed so I can move the SP to the new ones that are needed. But that would be a huge can of worms.
We know that, your concerns are being brought in our internal discussion . Again, we'll give an answer as soon as we can. |
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Zilero
The Littlest Hobos Whores in space
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:16:00 -
[198] - Quote
Can I please have a SP refund on Mining Barges V as I no longer need that to fly a Rorq... oh god, what a terrible useless skill to posses after summer |
Merouk Baas
522
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:16:00 -
[199] - Quote
Would CCP or anyone create an API-based tool that'll tell us what our final skills will be, based on our current skills? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3686
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:17:00 -
[200] - Quote
C DeLeon wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:C DeLeon wrote:If I have the "Interdictors" lvl1 skill but I don't have the "Propulsion Jamming" lvl5 and "Graviton Physics" lvl1 yet what's gonna happen with my "Interdictors" skill and the ability to fly a dictor (even without interdiction sphere launcher)? Am I gonna loose the skill and the ability to be able to fly a dictor? I know that there isn't much of use of a dictor without bubble but it would be good to know. Please, PLEASE read the thread, your questions have been answered several times. I searched for the word "interdic" on every page but found no answer. The official answer arrived after I started to write my comment. There is no reason to be a smartass about it. Your question was answered in a much more general sense. Next time train reading comprehension before you clutter the thread up with useless crap. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:18:00 -
[201] - Quote
Intex Encapor wrote:bah extra sp will push me up one clone level, i seriously hate you now
I didn't think it was possible, but you are even more bitter on the official Eve forums than you are on the CVA forums. You are like an IPA version of yourself. This is the coolest thing I have ever learned. |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
473
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:18:00 -
[202] - Quote
Cool changes, but please hurry up and give the Naglfar three guns, because if you make flying a moros as easier for me as training Cap Hybrids One and Dread One which you are doing, My CEO will ***** at me to fly a fecking moros.
All in all Solid work, I do enjoy the idea of 6m extra free skill points on my tab, for nothing more then a patch update. BC 5 Dessi 5 huzzar.
O god, Now i'll be able too fly an archon. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Buff the Niddy as well or it will never again undock. Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
598
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:26:00 -
[203] - Quote
Is there something wrong with the picture or caption concerning the Frieghters skills? you say "Freighters GÇóNow requires Advanced Spaceship Command 5 instead of 1" but the picture shows 1
Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
55
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:28:00 -
[204] - Quote
Saithe wrote:Because I am lazy, and don't care to read an entire wall of text in its entirety (or even check this thread for the answer), would someone mind answering me the following question:
I currently have every race frigate, cruiser, and battleship skill trained to 5, as well as destroyers and battlecruisers 5.
With these new changes, will I automatically be given each race destroyer/battlecruiser skill to 5? Or will I have to reacquire 3 of the 4?
The blog post, from what I was able to read, was not too clear on that. I assume, because it's stated that 'if you can fly it now, you'll be able to fly it post-change', I will be given the racial destroyer/battlecruiser skills to the currently trained level of the des/bc skill, according to the trained racial frig skills currently.
TL;DR How do these changes affect us old players who have everything to 5 already?
I'd answer you, but I am too lazy.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
598
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:28:00 -
[205] - Quote
Wow as a middlling SP character with 30 million SP I see I'm really going to get ****** up the rear is my initial impression Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Cameron Zero
Red Federation
154
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:28:00 -
[206] - Quote
Saithe wrote:Because I am lazy, and don't care to read an entire wall of text in its entirety (or even check this thread for the answer), would someone mind answering me the following question:
I currently have every race frigate, cruiser, and battleship skill trained to 5, as well as destroyers and battlecruisers 5.
With these new changes, will I automatically be given each race destroyer/battlecruiser skill to 5? Or will I have to reacquire 3 of the 4?
The blog post, from what I was able to read, was not too clear on that. I assume, because it's stated that 'if you can fly it now, you'll be able to fly it post-change', I will be given the racial destroyer/battlecruiser skills to the currently trained level of the des/bc skill, according to the trained racial frig skills currently.
TL;DR How do these changes affect us old players who have everything to 5 already?
As I'm reading it, you'll get all four racial destroyer/battlecruiser skills trained to V (since you already have the racial frigate/cruiser skills at V (requires III), and destroyers/battlecruisers at V. "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. GǪ" |
Intex Encapor
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:29:00 -
[207] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Intex Encapor wrote:bah extra sp will push me up one clone level, i seriously hate you now I didn't think it was possible, but you are even more bitter on the official Eve forums than you are on the CVA forums. You are like an IPA version of yourself. This is the coolest thing I have ever learned.
thats hardly bitter |
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
43
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:29:00 -
[208] - Quote
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1567
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:31:00 -
[209] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Please change it to "The prereq to training a skill is having that skill injected". Reason: Ive already trained the needed prereq skills under the old system in order to get the skill under the old system. Ive paid my dues. Telling me to pay them again is not cool. The only way to make it cool would be to reimburse those prereqs no longer needed so I can move the SP to the new ones that are needed. But that would be a huge can of worms. We know that, your concerns are being brought in our internal discussion . Again, we'll give an answer as soon as we can.
Good. Ive added a couple of other points to consider in my previous post. Also there is a compromise: Make it "The prereq to training a skill is having that skill injected" for a month or two. Then change it to "All prereqs are needed to inject or train any skill". That will give time for us players to get use to the new prereqs and train them as desired. Sort of like the POS fuel changeover.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1567
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:33:00 -
[210] - Quote
MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? Or give them different roles: Speed, survivability, volume, fleet hangar, fitting service, etc. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
|
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
598
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:34:00 -
[211] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Umm ok I'll hold you to that if I wakeup after the expansion and find out I can't fly my Providence my subscription will be cancelled Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Nightlund Audeles
The Halcyon Directive
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:35:00 -
[212] - Quote
Get ready for the massive flights of Orca's and people blowing them up after this! Training for an Orca in under a month? ROFL!!!! QQ? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3686
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:36:00 -
[213] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? Or give them different roles: Speed, survivability, volume, fleet hangar, fitting service, etc. I imagine this is probably what's going to happen when the industrials get tiericided.
I'm curious to see how CCP will handle the discrepancy between the availability of the racial variants of industrials. Amarr have two industrials Caldari have two industrials Minmatar have three industrials Gallente have five industrials, not counting the three special edition models Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Mai Khumm
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
442
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:37:00 -
[214] - Quote
Question!
Quote: "If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed."
Let's say I'm training a character for...whatever role. And I have all Racial Cruiser skills at level 1 and have Battlecruisers at level 5, do I get reimbursed for just the SP I trained, or do I get the potential SP of the 4 Racial Battlecruisers put into the free allocation pool? *insert witty saying here* twitter - @AzamiNevinyrall |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
60
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:40:00 -
[215] - Quote
I actually have mixed feelings about changing carrier skill reqs to BS 3.
On one hand, unless you nail the future carrier changes with some really interesting bonuses this means we will never really see a thanatos or nidhoggur (or phoenix and naglfar).
However, the same effect allows rich alliances to feasibly buy multiple carriers per person for capital fleet concepts best suited to the situation at hand, which is a neat idea.
Would rather see (racial) capital shield/armor/cap transfer as pre-reqs than cap ships IV as well, but that's really a minor issue at best.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1569
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:41:00 -
[216] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? Or give them different roles: Speed, survivability, volume, fleet hangar, fitting service, etc. I imagine this is probably what's going to happen when the industrials get tiericided. I'm curious to see how CCP will handle the discrepancy between the availability of the racial variants of industrials. Amarr have two industrials Caldari have two industrials Minmatar have three industrials Gallente have five industrials, not counting the three special edition models More new ships! 3 Amarr and Caldari industrials and 2 for the Matari. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:44:00 -
[217] - Quote
Shouldn't the requirements for Jump Freighter be raised to Racial Freigher V to keep it in line with other Tech II ships? |
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1588
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:44:00 -
[218] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? Or give them different roles: Speed, survivability, volume, fleet hangar, fitting service, etc.
Yep, that's what we are thinking. We'll get to them eventually as part of the tiericide initiative. |
|
Nightlund Audeles
The Halcyon Directive
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Fade 2 Black
362
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:46:00 -
[220] - Quote
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set. Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs.
Well, JF is the only T2 capital ship for now... I hope to see more T2 caps.... like a Combat carrier or a Logistic carrier. Black ops carrier? Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3686
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:46:00 -
[221] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? Or give them different roles: Speed, survivability, volume, fleet hangar, fitting service, etc. Yep, that's what we are thinking. We'll get to them eventually as part of the tiericide initiative. Sounds like in the interest of fairness you'll have to introduce 8 new industrial ships if you're planning on giving the Gallente ones separate roles. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3686
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:47:00 -
[222] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Forlorn Wongraven wrote:@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set. Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs. Well, JF is the only T2 capital ship for now... I hope to see more T2 caps.... like a Combat carrier or a Logistic carrier. Black ops carrier? Strictly speaking, and regardless of what the market window says, freighters, jump freighters, and Orcas are not capital ships. They don't require the capital ships skill. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Fade 2 Black
362
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:48:00 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? Or give them different roles: Speed, survivability, volume, fleet hangar, fitting service, etc. Yep, that's what we are thinking. We'll get to them eventually as part of the tiericide initiative.
I want a ship that compres Minerals into refinned minerals! Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:49:00 -
[224] - Quote
It has been stated several times, that CCP will first balance ships, then change skills. Does it mean all mentioned ships (including Titans and Moms) would be rebalanced till summer? Hmm, Fozzie better get ready to live at his workplace.
Also, a battleship in two days? Hell yeah, noobs gonna suffer! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3686
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:50:00 -
[225] - Quote
Most noobs that train to fly a battleship in two days aren't going to be able to afford them. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ma'ax
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:50:00 -
[226] - Quote
wowsa, very impressed with the thoroughness of the plan and the clarity of the presentation. |
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1588
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:52:00 -
[227] - Quote
Nightlund Audeles wrote:Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca.
Nope, sorry Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh. |
|
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:54:00 -
[228] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Most noobs that train to fly a battleship in two days aren't going to be able to afford them. PLEX to win. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:55:00 -
[229] - Quote
Capqu wrote: Defeats the "T2 is specialization" thing you guys are going for when using T2 hybrids requires you to specialize in all the smaller hybrids first.
The specialization is in BLASTERS vs RAILGUNS. Both are hybrid weapons.
No logic flaw in the specialization concept at all.
|
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:55:00 -
[230] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Forlorn Wongraven wrote:@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set. Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs. We aren't adding Freighters 5 as the Jump Freighter requirement, at least not for a good while. We considered it, but the prospect of giving 7 million skill points extra wasn't appealing.
But the thought of receiving 7 million skill points extra is appealing. |
|
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
285
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:57:00 -
[231] - Quote
With all these changes, how about a 'one-off' complete SP reset for all subscribers?
Come on, after 10 years, it's about time we shake it up |
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
192
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:58:00 -
[232] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown?
You do not need the command links to V but the basic Warfare Skills to V.
The skills relevant to the command links are the specialist skills, not the basic ones.
For example,
you need Armored Wafare V, not Armored Wafare Specialist V. you need Information Warfare V, not Information Warfare Specialist V. you need Siege Warfare V, not Siege Warfare Specialist V. you need Skirmish Warfare V, not Skirmish Warfare Specialist V. you need Warfare Link Specilst IV.
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:58:00 -
[233] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Awesome clarification. Thanks.
I have small hope that it will stop the fail posts, though :). |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
775
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:02:00 -
[234] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Most noobs that train to fly a battleship in two days aren't going to be able to afford them.
thats what plex is for right? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3686
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:04:00 -
[235] - Quote
Which is why I said most. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Alcius
EVE University Ivy League
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:07:00 -
[236] - Quote
For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players. These changes might be an easier way for newer players to get into specific hulls, but the reimbursements and some of these changes hurt older players very hard. I know that usually there are always some victims within such deep changes, but parts are really p'$5145 me off (and I-¦m rather a calm person). On paper these changes might look good from a beginners point, but not if you are capable, trained and used to fly different ships already. These players will loose to much of their playstyles and flexibilitiy.
Destroyers and Battlecruisers: Currently I have trained both of these skills to level 5 and all additional requirements meet to fly every Tier1 Destroyer/Battlecruiser of every faction with maximum bonuses. So if I got this right, I will get a reimbursement and can reinvest in the approriate racial skill - BUT ONLY FOR ONE AT LEVEL 5 AGAIN. That means that I loose 3/4 of my bonuses of these ships, since I get only enough skill points to maximize one race to level 5. Apart that I will also have to buy the skillbooks, right? I don-¦t care here, that I might be able to fly them with level 1, but the time it will take me to be at the same skill level again.
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Battleships requirements: Since Cruisers now require the respective racial Destroyer skill at level 3, what happens to these, if I only get enough skill points reimbursed to maximize racial Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill? E.g. currently having Destroyers/Battlecruisers at 5; and I like to fly the Cormorant, Arbitrator, Hurricane and Dominix. After the changes I cannot fly these, until I have the proper Racial prerequired skills trained, but I do not get enough reimbursement points to be at the same level and forced to decide which of these vessels I have to sacrifice for a while.
Impacts on fittings: Well, since you will loose different ship bonuses, you won-¦t be able to use the current fittings or at least they will loose their power. Yay - NOT!
Industrials/Orca: These changes are exaggerated! I mean Iteron V from 24d down to 33 minutes!?! WoOt, everyone will only use them instead of the other industrials, because of the cargo capacity/training time in comparison. I also feel betrayed here.
Swapping skills: With these changes you also break promisses, since if the player doesn-¦t have the other skill trained to the required level, he won-¦t be able to fly this. Especially Command Ships and Freighter changes are very rough! That-¦s over ~ one month of training!!! Direkt impact on Electronic Attack Ships, Command Ships, as well as Interdictors, Heavy Assault Ships, Recon Ships, Heavy Interdictors as well - isn-¦t that too much at a time?!
Reimbursement statement: This is just simply not enough. You should reimburse the players in a way, that they suffer as little as possible. I mean it-¦s not our mistake that you rebalance this, so why should we be the ones taking the hit? We should be able to remain at our current achieved skill ranks and ships. If it would only mean to have to train up some skills in less than a week, that-¦s ok, but in many cases it will rather take several weeks. There should be either given out additional free skill points, remaps or special one-time implants/boosters which speed up the training. Also originally your quote "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" should have been expanded with "at the same level". I comes to my mind that you might not have taken into account, that players actually have training plans, which you are messing up in big parts.
There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes... |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1570
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:08:00 -
[237] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Most noobs that train to fly a battleship in two days aren't going to be able to afford them. PLEX to win. Win for who? The one who shoots said 2 day old pilot who got in a BS? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:09:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Forlorn Wongraven wrote:@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set. Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs. We aren't adding Freighters 5 as the Jump Freighter requirement, at least not for a good while. We considered it, but the prospect of giving 7 million skill points extra wasn't appealing.
Once again, do it right, if all other t2 ships need training the correspondent requirement skill to V, why open an exception?
Just do it right and keep it consistent with your own revamp plan please. If that means you have to give 7M skill points, ups!
Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3687
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:09:00 -
[239] - Quote
Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players. These changes might be an easier way for newer players to get into specific hulls, but the reimbursements and some of these changes hurt older players very hard. I know that usually there are always some victims within such deep changes, but parts are really p'$5145 me off (and I-¦m rather a calm person). On paper these changes might look good from a beginners point, but not if you are capable, trained and used to fly different ships already. These players will loose to much of their playstyles and flexibilitiy.
Destroyers and Battlecruisers: Currently I have trained both of these skills to level 5 and all additional requirements meet to fly every Tier1 Destroyer/Battlecruiser of every faction with maximum bonuses. So if I got this right, I will get a reimbursement and can reinvest in the approriate racial skill - BUT ONLY FOR ONE AT LEVEL 5 AGAIN. That means that I loose 3/4 of my bonuses of these ships, since I get only enough skill points to maximize one race to level 5. Apart that I will also have to buy the skillbooks, right? I don-¦t care here, that I might be able to fly them with level 1, but the time it will take me to be at the same skill level again.
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Battleships requirements: Since Cruisers now require the respective racial Destroyer skill at level 3, what happens to these, if I only get enough skill points reimbursed to maximize racial Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill? E.g. currently having Destroyers/Battlecruisers at 5; and I like to fly the Cormorant, Arbitrator, Hurricane and Dominix. After the changes I cannot fly these, until I have the proper Racial prerequired skills trained, but I do not get enough reimbursement points to be at the same level and forced to decide which of these vessels I have to sacrifice for a while.
Impacts on fittings: Well, since you will loose different ship bonuses, you won-¦t be able to use the current fittings or at least they will loose their power. Yay - NOT!
Industrials/Orca: These changes are exaggerated! I mean Iteron V from 24d down to 33 minutes!?! WoOt, everyone will only use them instead of the other industrials, because of the cargo capacity/training time in comparison. I also feel betrayed here.
Swapping skills: With these changes you also break promisses, since if the player doesn-¦t have the other skill trained to the required level, he won-¦t be able to fly this. Especially Command Ships and Freighter changes are very rough! That-¦s over ~ one month of training!!! Direkt impact on Electronic Attack Ships, Command Ships, as well as Interdictors, Heavy Assault Ships, Recon Ships, Heavy Interdictors as well - isn-¦t that too much at a time?!
Reimbursement statement: This is just simply not enough. You should reimburse the players in a way, that they suffer as little as possible. I mean it-¦s not our mistake that you rebalance this, so why should we be the ones taking the hit? We should be able to remain at our current achieved skill ranks and ships. If it would only mean to have to train up some skills in less than a week, that-¦s ok, but in many cases it will rather take several weeks. There should be either given out additional free skill points, remaps or special one-time implants/boosters which speed up the training. Also originally your quote "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" should have been expanded with "at the same level". I comes to my mind that you might not have taken into account, that players actually have training plans, which you are messing up in big parts.
There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes... aosidjgpaoiejgpoaigjepaowiuhgapoisejfpaoijfeapowiiejfapoijgfoiaopuihjpowsj -p9*UHJAP_(USHP_)(U*HR_F(*UH( Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3687
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:11:00 -
[240] - Quote
(Translation: Call an ambulance, I just had a blood vessel explode in my brain) Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
|
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
198
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:11:00 -
[241] - Quote
So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:
I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4. On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.
Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to? |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Fade 2 Black
362
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:12:00 -
[242] - Quote
Big question:
The tiercide was based on removing the ship classification on tiers, ballancing their power and putting them into "roles"...
What will happen to the T2 ships? they wil have roles too?
Advanced role - Makes the ship a better version of the T1 ( Assault, logistic, etc...)
Expecial role - Modiffy the ship into something New. (covert ships and dictors.)
or they will stay the same as they are today? Don't you think that T2 ships need a batter classification ? Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Nalha Saldana
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
666
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:14:00 -
[243] - Quote
Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players. These changes might be an easier way for newer players to get into specific hulls, but the reimbursements and some of these changes hurt older players very hard. I know that usually there are always some victims within such deep changes, but parts are really p'$5145 me off (and I-¦m rather a calm person). On paper these changes might look good from a beginners point, but not if you are capable, trained and used to fly different ships already. These players will loose to much of their playstyles and flexibilitiy.
Destroyers and Battlecruisers: Currently I have trained both of these skills to level 5 and all additional requirements meet to fly every Tier1 Destroyer/Battlecruiser of every faction with maximum bonuses. So if I got this right, I will get a reimbursement and can reinvest in the approriate racial skill - BUT ONLY FOR ONE AT LEVEL 5 AGAIN. That means that I loose 3/4 of my bonuses of these ships, since I get only enough skill points to maximize one race to level 5. Apart that I will also have to buy the skillbooks, right? I don-¦t care here, that I might be able to fly them with level 1, but the time it will take me to be at the same skill level again.
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Battleships requirements: Since Cruisers now require the respective racial Destroyer skill at level 3, what happens to these, if I only get enough skill points reimbursed to maximize racial Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill? E.g. currently having Destroyers/Battlecruisers at 5; and I like to fly the Cormorant, Arbitrator, Hurricane and Dominix. After the changes I cannot fly these, until I have the proper Racial prerequired skills trained, but I do not get enough reimbursement points to be at the same level and forced to decide which of these vessels I have to sacrifice for a while.
Impacts on fittings: Well, since you will loose different ship bonuses, you won-¦t be able to use the current fittings or at least they will loose their power. Yay - NOT!
Industrials/Orca: These changes are exaggerated! I mean Iteron V from 24d down to 33 minutes!?! WoOt, everyone will only use them instead of the other industrials, because of the cargo capacity/training time in comparison. I also feel betrayed here.
Swapping skills: With these changes you also break promisses, since if the player doesn-¦t have the other skill trained to the required level, he won-¦t be able to fly this. Especially Command Ships and Freighter changes are very rough! That-¦s over ~ one month of training!!! Direkt impact on Electronic Attack Ships, Command Ships, as well as Interdictors, Heavy Assault Ships, Recon Ships, Heavy Interdictors as well - isn-¦t that too much at a time?!
Reimbursement statement: This is just simply not enough. You should reimburse the players in a way, that they suffer as little as possible. I mean it-¦s not our mistake that you rebalance this, so why should we be the ones taking the hit? We should be able to remain at our current achieved skill ranks and ships. If it would only mean to have to train up some skills in less than a week, that-¦s ok, but in many cases it will rather take several weeks. There should be either given out additional free skill points, remaps or special one-time implants/boosters which speed up the training. Also originally your quote "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" should have been expanded with "at the same level". I comes to my mind that you might not have taken into account, that players actually have training plans, which you are messing up in big parts.
There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes...
Just read the blog properly, you will get all the racial skills at your current skill level, you wont lose a thing. |
Zent
Centers for Intergalactic Mercantile Acquisition
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:14:00 -
[244] - Quote
Wow will there be any reimbursement on the Iteron 5 industrial skill now only needing lvl 1 to fly it? |
Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
60
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:14:00 -
[245] - Quote
Why are module requirements being worked into the ships?
Eg, if I want to go pvp with a sabre in lowsec, why do I need to have the skills to use a dictor bubble? |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
285
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:14:00 -
[246] - Quote
Alexandra Alt wrote:So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:
I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4. On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.
Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to? Yes.
Once you have a skill, it works as always. It's the pre-reqs for getting the skill in the first place that changes.
|
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1177
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:15:00 -
[247] - Quote
Enjoying it, I know you're going to get some criticisms, but just work them out and you'll be awesome.
I made a thread for talkiing about the industrial revamp! Please read and take them to heart, thanks!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2579623 Where I am. |
Nalha Saldana
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
666
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:15:00 -
[248] - Quote
Alexandra Alt wrote:So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:
I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4. On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.
Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to?
Read the blog properly, you will still be able to fly the ships and train the skill without the necessary prereq skills. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1570
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:16:00 -
[249] - Quote
Alexandra Alt wrote:So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:
I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4. On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.
Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Melisandre Freewoman
Invincible Moose
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:16:00 -
[250] - Quote
Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players....
...There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes...
I logged in to call you an idiot. You are an idiot. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3687
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:18:00 -
[251] - Quote
Melisandre Freewoman wrote:Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players....
...There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes... I logged in to call you an idiot. You are an idiot. I took your like virginity. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Melisandre Freewoman
Invincible Moose
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:19:00 -
[252] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Melisandre Freewoman wrote:Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players....
...There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes... I logged in to call you an idiot. You are an idiot. I took your like virginity.
*blush*
Was it as good for you as it was for me? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:20:00 -
[253] - Quote
Alcius wrote: So if I got this right, .
Initial requirement already broken. Makes the remainder of your rant a little less relevant than an empty page. At least that could be used for writing things down.. |
BadAssMcKill
Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army
99
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:20:00 -
[254] - Quote
Cool changes overall, especially no longer needing Logi 4/HAC 4 for command ships
Pity however that you made it easier to get into an Orca after I finished training my Orca alt Starships were meant to fly~ |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
198
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:22:00 -
[255] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:Alexandra Alt wrote:So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:
I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4. On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.
Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to? Read the blog properly, you will still be able to fly the ships and train the skill without the necessary prereq skills.
It is clear yes I can still fly the ship, as I stated in the first paragraph, I knew that already.
The issues are actually 2:
a) Will it check the pre-reqs when I add the skill in queue to train it from 4 to 5 and not allow me to ? b) Will another skill that requires (as an example) Command Ship 5 require me to get * warfare skills to 5 ?
If the answer to any of the questions above is yes, then it makes no sense at all, remove the pre-req checks id you have the skill injected at least.
|
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
269
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:22:00 -
[256] - Quote
My only suggestion would be to swap the Energy Grid Upgrades V requirement on the HACs for something more useful. RCU 2s are pretty naff and they aren't used in fits for very good reasons - better a useful lowslot and an acr rig than the other way round. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:24:00 -
[257] - Quote
Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
Destroyers and Battlecruisers: Currently I have trained both of these skills to level 5 and all additional requirements meet to fly every Tier1 Destroyer/Battlecruiser of every faction with maximum bonuses. So if I got this right, I will get a reimbursement and can reinvest in the approriate racial skill - BUT ONLY FOR ONE AT LEVEL 5 AGAIN. That means that I loose 3/4 of my bonuses of these ships, since I get only enough skill points to maximize one race to level 5. Apart that I will also have to buy the skillbooks, right? I don-¦t care here, that I might be able to fly them with level 1, but the time it will take me to be at the same skill level again.
There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes...
just to clarify, if you have BC5 you get skill points for ALL D/BC races at L5, not just one 1 of them just make sure you get all frigates and cruisers of all races up to L3 that is the minimum requirement for CCP to give you all at L5 Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Seleucus Ontuas
Justified Chaos
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:25:00 -
[258] - Quote
Looks to me like you guys might want to edit your Dev Blog and clarify that the new skills being added to Command Ships are the generic bonuses and the link skills, aka Armor Warfare Specialist, Information Warfare Specialist, etc. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:26:00 -
[259] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:My only suggestion would be to swap the Energy Grid Upgrades V requirement on the HACs for something more useful. RCU 2s are pretty naff and they aren't used in fits for very good reasons - better a useful lowslot and an acr rig than the other way round.
I suppose that was changed to get them somewhat in line with the step from Battleships to Marauders. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:32:00 -
[260] - Quote
Adele Godel wrote:Why are module requirements being worked into the ships?
Eg, if I want to go pvp with a sabre in lowsec, why do I need to have the skills to use a dictor bubble?
Well, they didn't review the T2 ships yet, but my bet is that since they said T2 are supose to be specialization ships, I bet interdictor ships will be changed to just do that, drop bubbles, I don't think putting guns and no bubble lunchers in those will be in the menu of CCP when the time comes to review these ships!
my bet: sabres will not be a very good pew pew ship after the review pass, probably will just be an excelent bubble drop ship with an improved speed and survivibility capabilities.
just a bet... Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
|
Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:42:00 -
[261] - Quote
I could understand JDC3 as a tertiary skill for SCs but for a carrier it seems a bit excessive. Maybe swap it for Tactical Logistics Reconfig to mirror the dreads?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Nope, sorry Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh. Made me giggle. |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
198
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:47:00 -
[262] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Adele Godel wrote:Why are module requirements being worked into the ships?
Eg, if I want to go pvp with a sabre in lowsec, why do I need to have the skills to use a dictor bubble? Well, they didn't review the T2 ships yet, but my bet is that since they said T2 are supose to be specialization ships, I bet interdictor ships will be changed to just do that, drop bubbles, I don't think putting guns and no bubble lunchers in those will be in the menu of CCP when the time comes to review these ships! my bet: sabres will not be a very good pew pew ship after the review pass, probably will just be an excelent bubble drop ship with an improved speed and survivibility capabilities. just a bet...
If that's the case then it makes no sense to have a module to fit in the ship, the ship would bring that module embedded already, makes no sense as it makes no sense either to have the skill as a pre requisite, sure, the user should be aware that the main purpose of that ship is to drop bubbles, but not make it a pre-req imo. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
151
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:47:00 -
[263] - Quote
While you are rejiggering things, you should change the prerequisite of Long Range targeting for the Logistics skill, to Multitasking, since Logi pilots have more need of being able to lock more targets (ship can lock 10) than they have of being able to lock at long range. |
Max McKeigh
DROP-SHIP
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:50:00 -
[264] - Quote
So unless I'm reading this completely wrong, flying a carrier takes one day more but automatically means you've trained a 20-30 day skill that wasn't required before, therefore still reducing the training time to be effective with it by at least 30 days. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
775
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:51:00 -
[265] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Melisandre Freewoman wrote:Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players....
...There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes... I logged in to call you an idiot. You are an idiot. I took your like virginity.
i got sloppy 5th At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
294
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:01:00 -
[266] - Quote
I think this will be a big help for newer players.
They could rip through the first 10 PVE missions (combat/advanced combat), be given a free destroyer and the destroyer skill book in a few hours, and if not interested in business/industry, be ready to move off and do the Sisters Epic Arc. Except that is best done in at destroyer, and with destroyer requiring Frig 4, more than a day of training.
And in that day they do what?
Right... ask what they can do while waiting to train skills. |
BenFranklin
ZERO T0LERANCE RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:02:00 -
[267] - Quote
So basically I can fly every ship i could fly before - only that my clone upgrade costs now 20 Mil instead of 13 like before at my current skillpoint due to the additional skillpoints that were added.
Costs for clones already suck now - in summer they will suck even more and makes pvp'ing with cheap ships for older characters even more unattractive than it is now. |
Besbin
Anguis Sicarios
24
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:07:00 -
[268] - Quote
Maybe you forgot Exhumers requiring Mining Barge V? Just sayin'... |
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
43
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:10:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? Or give them different roles: Speed, survivability, volume, fleet hangar, fitting service, etc. Yep, that's what we are thinking. We'll get to them eventually as part of the tiericide initiative.
Nice, but most users of those ships are mostly interested in one thing: cargo capacity. Others will become very seldom used. IMHO |
Max McKeigh
DROP-SHIP
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:13:00 -
[270] - Quote
Alright, according to evemon and evehq, the current training time to sit a new character in a carrier with cal IV and fuel III, no other skills, just take it to the end of the driveway to get the mail, based on their '20 attribute across the board' model, would be 184-186 days. If their image shows the correct new train time, 146, this means an almost 40 day reduction. Which there is no way to stretch that into 'Similar training times' without suffering severe head trauma. |
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
466
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:13:00 -
[271] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:tgl3 wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Many people in situations similar to mine can currently fly the Archon with these skills: BS at V, JDO at 1, and Amarr Carrier at I.....
After this change, I will not be able to fly the Archon, as I wont have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC
CCP CLEARLY state "if we can fly it today, we can fly it tomorrow.... "
Are you planning to address this?
You will still have the Carrier skill trained, so you can fly the ship. What you may NOT be able to do, is train the Carrier skill further. But I do have the carrier skill... and can easily fly EVERY CARRIER In the game simply by training it now..... To put it blatantly.... Today, I CAN FLY any regular carrier in this game.... (although I've only skill trained on the archon). I do NOT have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC.... With the changes, I could NOT FLY a regular carrier when the skiil changes happen.... This is a direct contradiction to the quote: If you can fly it today, you can fly it tomorrow.... How does CCP plan to address this? *Edit* I misread the post above me.... so I could continue to fly the archon.... I just wouldn't be able to further train it until the new prereqs gett trained? You have Amarr Carrier injected, you should be able to get better at it.
If you do not have Minmatar Carrier injected before the change, you would not be able to inject the skill until you trained all the new prereqs. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Rain6639
Team Evil
185
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:15:00 -
[272] - Quote
hah. two days before a definite date is announced, I finished BC V, Cruisers III, Destroyers V, Frigates IV across all accounts, most recently the two newest. heh. EDM? you mean EFM |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1698
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:17:00 -
[273] - Quote
Max McKeigh wrote:Alright, according to evemon and evehq, the current training time to sit a new character in a carrier with cal IV and fuel III, no other skills, just take it to the end of the driveway to get the mail, based on their '20 attribute across the board' model, would be 184-186 days. If their image shows the correct new train time, 146, this means an almost 40 day reduction. Which there is no way to stretch that into 'Similar training times' without suffering severe head trauma.
It's been a good while since we caught some newb in a carrier ratting in lowsec. I welcome this buff to lowsec. :)
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Jacob D'Argo
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:20:00 -
[274] - Quote
Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts. **/snip, because you shouldn't have to suffer the rest of his idiocy**
EVE University: The best and the brightest.
Did you even read the Dev Blog? Did you read the very detailed example they put at the bottom of the Dev Blog? They did everything but provide an EVEMon skill plan that you can use to maximize the benefit from the pending changes, and you still don't get it.
At this point, and because I'm jaded, I can't possibly think of you as anything other than a troll, because no one could possibly be that obtuse. |
Zenathar
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:24:00 -
[275] - Quote
Looking for a little bit of clarification here in regards to the new JDC 3 and JFC 4 requirements for the carriers/supercarriers. Since many holding toons for supers do not have either jump drive calibration or jump fuel conservation, will these changes have an effect on the holders ability to enter and leave the ship at will? as in if the holder hands the ship off to another character will it be able to get back into the ship at a later time without having jump drive calibration or jump fuel conservation? or will it be that as long as the character has the carrier skill it can enter and leave the ship at will? This may be a case of repition in this thread because i missed something previously posted...in that case my bad :) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3692
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:25:00 -
[276] - Quote
Since you were too lazy to look for the answer, I'll be too lazy to give you another one. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
trumpet7347
Death Incarnate Elite Iron Cross Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:27:00 -
[277] - Quote
I want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. I currently have BC 5 and Command Ship 4, as well as all the racial cruisers up to at least 3. From what I see, when the patch comes out, I will be able to fly ANY, of the command ships, and not just the one I can fly currently. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3692
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:29:00 -
[278] - Quote
trumpet7347 wrote:I want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. I currently have BC 5 and Command Ship 4, as well as all the racial cruisers up to at least 3. From what I see, when the patch comes out, I will be able to fly ANY, of the command ships, and not just the one I can fly currently. Yes Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
847
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:34:00 -
[279] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:ORCACommander wrote:You need a blurb in there about where to apply for reimbursement and when you want us to apply. No need to apply, the new skills will be done and placed in your head automagically.
Man, I wish you guys ran a college. |
Intex Encapor
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:37:00 -
[280] - Quote
BenFranklin wrote:So basically I can fly every ship i could fly before - only that my clone upgrade costs now 20 Mil instead of 13 like before at my current skillpoint due to the additional skillpoints that were added.
Costs for clones already suck now - in summer they will suck even more and makes pvp'ing with cheap ships for older characters even more unattractive than it is now.
pretty much |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3693
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:40:00 -
[281] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2470190#post2470190
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'm Down wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I'm working on the next version of the BC changes now, but in the meantime two quick things to update. Since we've announced it in CCP Seagull's Devblog, I can let you all know that the Combat BC balance pass is scheduled for the Retribution 1.1 patch on February 12th. To reiterate, the skill split will not be happening in this patch. That change is currently scheduled for our major summer expansion. We're also in the process of putting these changes on a public test server for you guys to play with them. Expect more news on that in the next day or so. There will definitely be changes between this posted design and what releases in 1.1, but for now the test server will have the same versions as this thread's OP. When we update the designs we'll get those onto the test server as well asap. You still haven't addressed the problems that the skill changes will make to cloning, clone cost, upgrades and the possible skill losses from players who die after the changes with out dated clones thanks to the potential 6 million addtional skill points. We have some plans to help mitigate those challenges but nothing quite ready to announce yet.
Would you care to comment or are you still not ready? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Pookie McPook
The Whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch
33
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:42:00 -
[282] - Quote
Looks like my bespoke Freighter alt needs to do some training before the summer. Shame he's currently training up Orca. Wasted skills all round. |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
314
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:52:00 -
[283] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:Question!
Quote: "If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed."
Let's say I'm training a character for...whatever role. And I have all Racial Cruiser skills at level 1 and have Battlecruisers at level 5, do I get reimbursed for just the SP I trained, or do I get the potential SP of the 4 Racial Battlecruisers put into the free allocation pool?
You would get the existing points from the BC skill put into the pool, not 4x the existing points.
In this case it would be most productive to get all 4 racial Cruiser skills to level 3 prior to the change. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
323
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:57:00 -
[284] - Quote
Something that hasn't been repeated in here. These changes are for the summer, not next week.
That's 4 months to train things if you're really worried about prereqs, even though they shouldn't be an issue. As well, the battleship changes have been pinned to the summer by Fozzie. However, based on what came out in retribution, I wouldn't be surprised if we also get the industrials and possibly a few of the T2 classes.
Sure, the current Iteron I-IV will be useless, but the new ones probably won't be. DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
Omega Tron
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:59:00 -
[285] - Quote
My .... My.... My....
The numerious tears of all you who are calling this as "Bull Sh*t" is better than any I've seen on the forms for sometime now. Please continue... This is the best read I've had here in a long time. Thank you. Back to reading.... My view of EVE and I don't-álike it.-á-á-á-á EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 7: 100% Nullsec residents.-á-á EVE demographics vs CSM demographics -- Worried ? I am the majority of players of EVE -- A solo HiSec-áplayer ONLY!!! |
Kalenn Istarion
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:04:00 -
[286] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Sarmatiko wrote: Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill? To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links? I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.
Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained. So for the Fenrir you will need to first have Advanced Spaceship Command at level V before you can start training Minmatar Freighter, but the prerequisite for that skill has changed.
I'm not sure that really answers what he's asking. Maybe this has been answered later in the thread but the real catch is, if I have a skill injected and partially trained (say level 3), do I then need the new pre-reqs to train it to level 4? Or can I train any injected skill regardless if its prereqs change down the road? Try Harder. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3506
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:06:00 -
[287] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2470190#post2470190 CCP Fozzie wrote:I'm Down wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I'm working on the next version of the BC changes now, but in the meantime two quick things to update. Since we've announced it in CCP Seagull's Devblog, I can let you all know that the Combat BC balance pass is scheduled for the Retribution 1.1 patch on February 12th. To reiterate, the skill split will not be happening in this patch. That change is currently scheduled for our major summer expansion. We're also in the process of putting these changes on a public test server for you guys to play with them. Expect more news on that in the next day or so. There will definitely be changes between this posted design and what releases in 1.1, but for now the test server will have the same versions as this thread's OP. When we update the designs we'll get those onto the test server as well asap. You still haven't addressed the problems that the skill changes will make to cloning, clone cost, upgrades and the possible skill losses from players who die after the changes with out dated clones thanks to the potential 6 million addtional skill points. We have some plans to help mitigate those challenges but nothing quite ready to announce yet. Would you care to comment or are you still not ready? You probably think me heartless for saying this, but really all I think they should do is have an announcement pop up the first time you log into a character saying to be sure and check your clone level vs your esperience point level as there may have been changes.
Give it a check box perhaps to not pop up again, or simply leave it at a one time only pop up per character.
If you ignore the reminder, that's on you from that point on. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
314
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:08:00 -
[288] - Quote
Intex Encapor wrote:BenFranklin wrote:So basically I can fly every ship i could fly before - only that my clone upgrade costs now 20 Mil instead of 13 like before at my current skillpoint due to the additional skillpoints that were added.
Costs for clones already suck now - in summer they will suck even more and makes pvp'ing with cheap ships for older characters even more unattractive than it is now. pretty much Stealth ISK sink. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3695
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:10:00 -
[289] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:You probably think me heartless for saying this, but really all I think they should do is have an announcement pop up the first time you log into a character saying to be sure and check your clone level vs your esperience point level as there may have been changes.
Give it a check box perhaps to not pop up again, or simply leave it at a one time only pop up per character.
If you ignore the reminder, that's on you from that point on. So just for clarification, you're essentially throwing yourself in with the "clone costs are fine" crowd? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:23:00 -
[290] - Quote
Apologies if this has been asked/answered already:
But for those of us that trained up BS to V to fly capital ships (or any other skill training such as this), are we to get reimbursement for the time/SP trained that you are now nerfing? Because what you're doing is making it easier for new people to get into these ships, while we spent all this time training for them in the first place, so shouldn't we get some form of SP reimbursement/compensation for this? Are we going to see this, or is it only for the racial Destroyers and BC skills? |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3695
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:25:00 -
[291] - Quote
Tobin Shalim wrote:Apologies if this has been asked/answered already:
But for those of us that trained up BS to V to fly capital ships (or any other skill training such as this), are we to get reimbursement for the time/SP trained that you are now nerfing? Because what you're doing is making it easier for new people to get into these ships, while we spent all this time training for them in the first place, so shouldn't we get some form of SP reimbursement/compensation for this? Are we going to see this, or is it only for the racial Destroyers and BC skills? No skills are being reimbursed. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:26:00 -
[292] - Quote
Are clone prices ever going to get looked at? I fly t1 frigates, but my clone costs 45m or something unless I go looking for L5 FW medical bay. |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
359
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:27:00 -
[293] - Quote
Tobin Shalim wrote:Apologies if this has been asked/answered already:
But for those of us that trained up BS to V to fly capital ships (or any other skill training such as this), are we to get reimbursement for the time/SP trained that you are now nerfing? Because what you're doing is making it easier for new people to get into these ships, while we spent all this time training for them in the first place, so shouldn't we get some form of SP reimbursement/compensation for this? Are we going to see this, or is it only for the racial Destroyers and BC skills? No. Things like this happen routinely and you never get sp back. The destroyers/BC situation is different because it would result in a situation where someone who was previously able to fly the ship would now be unable to fly it. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3506
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:27:00 -
[294] - Quote
BenFranklin wrote:So basically I can fly every ship i could fly before - only that my clone upgrade costs now 20 Mil instead of 13 like before at my current skillpoint due to the additional skillpoints that were added.
Costs for clones already suck now - in summer they will suck even more and makes pvp'ing with cheap ships for older characters even more unattractive than it is now. So far this is the only (small) legitimate gripe I see.
I'm slowly leaning more and more to a different system for clone costs, one that doesn't make flying cheap ships (or cross training another race) more than a bit absurb for older characters.
Perhaps that would be a good, small, issue to also tackle in the summer expansion. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3506
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:31:00 -
[295] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:You probably think me heartless for saying this, but really all I think they should do is have an announcement pop up the first time you log into a character saying to be sure and check your clone level vs your esperience point level as there may have been changes.
Give it a check box perhaps to not pop up again, or simply leave it at a one time only pop up per character.
If you ignore the reminder, that's on you from that point on. So just for clarification, you're essentially throwing yourself in with the "clone costs are fine" crowd? No, I'd actually like the current clone cost system to be changed at the same time.
However I recognize that may very well not happen... so under the current system I think this would be the simple and effective way to handle it.
Really, if you get a pop up the first time you log into each character reminding you to check your clone, I don't have a lot of sympathy for those that ignore it. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Hong Hu
EVE University Ivy League
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:32:00 -
[296] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
If CCP does make it so "you can fly what you could before" but not skill up further without all the pre-req met then I think CCP addresses the effort and time spent by high SP players without penalizing folks who have a minimum necessary for a given ship.
I hope CCP stays with this idea.
Regards,
Hong Hu |
DancesWithVeldspar
Raven's Toy Production
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:44:00 -
[297] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Nightlund Audeles wrote:Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca. Nope, sorry Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh.
Sure, but I have alts to do that for me. At the very least, please could you transfer some of my Mining Barge 5 to ORE Industrial 3? I am never going to need Mining Barge 5 but I might have a bad day and need ORE Industrial 3. |
Mai Khumm
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
442
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:45:00 -
[298] - Quote
Palovana wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Question!
Quote: "If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed."
Let's say I'm training a character for...whatever role. And I have all Racial Cruiser skills at level 1 and have Battlecruisers at level 5, do I get reimbursed for just the SP I trained, or do I get the potential SP of the 4 Racial Battlecruisers put into the free allocation pool? You would get the existing points from the BC skill put into the pool, not 4x the existing points. In this case it would be most productive to get all 4 racial Cruiser skills to level 3 prior to the change. OK, just wondering. But I'd still like a DEV to confirm, otherwise I'll bog up the petition system a lil bit... *insert witty saying here* twitter - @AzamiNevinyrall |
MagnusBraxx
Algorab Technology Mistakes Were Made.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:51:00 -
[299] - Quote
I truly believe that some of you ccp guys are ********, especialy ccp fozzie. |
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm. WHY so Seri0Us
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:52:00 -
[300] - Quote
Why would you not change the jump drive skills to not require jdo 5. Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Nullsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net |
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DancesWithVeldspar
Raven's Toy Production
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:53:00 -
[301] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:Palovana wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Question!
Quote: "If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed."
Let's say I'm training a character for...whatever role. And I have all Racial Cruiser skills at level 1 and have Battlecruisers at level 5, do I get reimbursed for just the SP I trained, or do I get the potential SP of the 4 Racial Battlecruisers put into the free allocation pool? You would get the existing points from the BC skill put into the pool, not 4x the existing points. In this case it would be most productive to get all 4 racial Cruiser skills to level 3 prior to the change. OK, just wondering. But I'd still like a DEV to confirm, otherwise I'll bog up the petition system a lil bit...
The dev blog states
Quote: If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
Not...
Quote: If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then 4 x the skill points will be added to the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
|
MagnusBraxx
Algorab Technology Mistakes Were Made.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:54:00 -
[302] - Quote
why is '********' censored? |
Marcus Gideon
Federal Defense Operations Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
99
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:54:00 -
[303] - Quote
15 pages is a lot to sort through, so excuse me if this is already been addressed.
Has anyone pointed out some of the redundant Prereqs you guys are listing?
For example...
- Freighter primary skill is Adv Spc Cmd 1, but the secondary skill requires Adv Spc Cmd 5 already. So why not just say Freighter 1 is the primary (and only) tree, which will include Adv Spc Cmd 5.
- The Covetor shows Astrogeo 3 twice, both as part of the primary, and exclusively as the secondary. Again, drop one since its already covered.
- Orca shows Mining Director needs Leader 1, but Foreman also needs Leader 1. So by having trained Foreman at all, you're guaranteed to already have Leader 1.
- Rorq lists Cap Ships 2 twice as well. |
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
177
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:55:00 -
[304] - Quote
Hi I am quitting EVE, it has nothing to do with these changes, im just busy with RL.
I have BC5 and ALL faction cruisers to 5 atm so that I could fly all the command ships, will I 'automatically' be reimbursed with these skills or would I need to log in, make a petition and get a GM to change?
I do eventually plan to return but would prefer not having to deal with this when I return.
TLDR: Will I need to make a petition to be reimbursed
PS. See this chars skills for more info
In other related news, I havent undocked in 2 years |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3698
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:57:00 -
[305] - Quote
You get the new skills automatically if you qualify for them, yes. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm. WHY so Seri0Us
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:58:00 -
[306] - Quote
Also instead of aeon, you're saying archon in the dev blog. Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Nullsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3698
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:00:00 -
[307] - Quote
Marcus Gideon wrote:15 pages is a lot to sort through, so excuse me if this is already been addressed.
Has anyone pointed out some of the redundant Prereqs you guys are listing?
For example...
- Freighter primary skill is Adv Spc Cmd 1, but the secondary skill requires Adv Spc Cmd 5 already. So why not just say Freighter 1 is the primary (and only) tree, which will include Adv Spc Cmd 5. Because if you did it that way, you wouldn't need ASC to fly freighters at all if you already had the freighters skill. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1698
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:05:00 -
[308] - Quote
Marcus Gideon wrote:15 pages is a lot to sort through, so excuse me if this is already been addressed.
Has anyone pointed out some of the redundant Prereqs you guys are listing?
For example...
- Freighter primary skill is Adv Spc Cmd 1, but the secondary skill requires Adv Spc Cmd 5 already. So why not just say Freighter 1 is the primary (and only) tree, which will include Adv Spc Cmd 5.
- The Covetor shows Astrogeo 3 twice, both as part of the primary, and exclusively as the secondary. Again, drop one since its already covered.
- Orca shows Mining Director needs Leader 1, but Foreman also needs Leader 1. So by having trained Foreman at all, you're guaranteed to already have Leader 1.
- Rorq lists Cap Ships 2 twice as well.
You have to learn each skill the number of times it is listed in the pre-req chain. If you haven't already learned capital ships twice, you'll have to buy another skill book and plug it in.
Wait, that would seem silly wouldn't it?
Maybe it's a comprehensive list of prereq's for each required skill, and you're reading too much into things?
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:11:00 -
[309] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:Dedicated supercap chars should get their skillpoints for racial BS 4 and 5 reimbursed. Same goes for dedicated freighter chars |
James1122
Red Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:14:00 -
[310] - Quote
Hi,
The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.
My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?
Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.
Two Step for CSM |
|
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:14:00 -
[311] - Quote
Zent wrote:Wow will there be any reimbursement on the Iteron 5 industrial skill now only needing lvl 1 to fly it?
I support that as well! When I trained that skill it was to be able to fly that Iteron 5. And I'm not interested in the gallente T2 industrials and for the freighter I wouldn't require that skill any longer too besides I'm as well not interested in the gallente freighter |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
200
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:17:00 -
[312] - Quote
Quote:Cloaking 4 added as skill requirement of the Recon Ships skill Isn't it a little counter-intuitive having to skill cloaking if you want to fly a non-cloak bonused combat recon? |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
995
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:18:00 -
[313] - Quote
MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?
I missed that one in the changes. If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words.
I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together. You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I. You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites.
This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous. I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans. |
James1122
Red Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:23:00 -
[314] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? I missed that one in the changes. If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words. I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together. You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I. You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites. This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous. I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans.
You are an idiot....... Did you bother to read the dev blog?
Mainly this bit
Quote:Industrials
All ship skill requirements reduced from 1-5 to 1. We want to overhaul Industrials roles as part of the Tiericide initiative and this is the first step in that direction. Watch out for more details when they are ready for player feedback. Racial Frigate skill requirement removed from the Industrial skill
Never mind the fact that training a skill to 5 gives a significant advantage over just having at the base entry level i.e. the reason why everyone trains hacs,recons,hics,dics,logi,cs and marauders above level 1........
Two Step for CSM |
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:28:00 -
[315] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? I missed that one in the changes. If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words. I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together. You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I. You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites. This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous. I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans.
Quote:Industrials
- All ship skill requirements reduced from 1-5 to 1. We want to overhaul Industrials roles as part of the Tiericide initiative and this is the first step in that direction. Watch out for more details when they are ready for player feedback.
- Racial Frigate skill requirement removed from the Industrial skill
I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.
edit: Sorry, forgot to mention, I kind of like the changes but the reimbursement program should get extended as explained above. Yes, the 5% more cargo hold is quite good but spending around 3 weeks to get from +20% to +25% is not really worth it. Before the introduction of the Orca it was worth the time but since then, it's only worth the time for those interested to get into gallente transport ships or freighter ... with the later one dropping out with the changes |
Midori Amiiko
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:31:00 -
[316] - Quote
I can't believe some people are all TLDR. This is some important **** here. Get an attention span.
I didn't really think that the generic ship skills were that whack. A dessie is like a cruiser-sized frigate and the BC is like a battleship-sized cruiser, so it made sense to me that there would be less of a skill burden to fly those ships.
The requirements to train Inty before Dictor were not lacking in verisimillitude either. Dictor is like a super Inty, Recon is like a super Cov-Ops...so it made sense for some experience with the lesser a requirement to fly the greater.
The reworking some of the prerequisites--I like.
Reducing the racial BS skill requirements on carriers...I like a lot. A big frustration of flying with Nul-Sec alliances is the FOTM phenominon--where the FOTM requires a month to train up, right before the flavor changes to something else leaving me permanently marginalized and forever playing catch-up. Was SO not looking forward to that on the carrier level.
To summarize: the old system, cobbled together as it was, was cobbled together pretty well. The changes reinforce consistency and simplify a very complicated aspect of the game.
Now, the question: can we expect racial drone (including fighter/fighter-bomber) skills to be rolled out in the future? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
604
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:39:00 -
[317] - Quote
Overall this seems amazing and somewhat frustrating at the same time. Going to give the Evemon skill planner a workout now. |
James1122
Red Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:41:00 -
[318] - Quote
Deornoth Drake wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? I missed that one in the changes. If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words. I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together. You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I. You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites. This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous. I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans. Quote:Industrials
- All ship skill requirements reduced from 1-5 to 1. We want to overhaul Industrials roles as part of the Tiericide initiative and this is the first step in that direction. Watch out for more details when they are ready for player feedback.
- Racial Frigate skill requirement removed from the Industrial skill
I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter. edit: Sorry, forgot to mention, I kind of like the changes but the reimbursement program should get extended as explained above. Yes, the 5% more cargo hold is quite good but spending around 3 weeks to get from +20% to +25% is not really worth it. Before the introduction of the Orca it was worth the time but since then, it's only worth the time for those interested to get into gallente transport ships or freighter ... with the later one dropping out with the changes
Yes but its your opinion that the 3 weeks it cost to go from 20-25 isn't worth it.
The bottom line is you are at no disadvantage after this patch than what you were at before hand. Sp refunds have only ever been offered where skills have been removed or made completely redundant. The skill in question still has purpose and use, ok you may rather have spent that 3 weeks training else where, but you are no worse off after the change than when you started. Two Step for CSM |
Kalenn Istarion
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:44:00 -
[319] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
See as I understand it, your second bullet above is actually a change from current policy... so what you mean is that you're considering whether you will change the policy or not. Right?
Personally, I can see the argument for either case, but clarification would be nice :) Try Harder. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:49:00 -
[320] - Quote
Deornoth Drake wrote: I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.
What a bunch of crap about the Iteron and reimbursement.
I'm pretty sure that after the tiericide there will be a max cargo variant (with minor differences) for every race. And the cargo size of that max cargo variant will most likely be even MORE skill bassed than it is today.
So in order to have the equivalent of your current Iteron V after the tiericide, you will most likely STILL need that skill at V. |
|
Arinyes Cantari
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:52:00 -
[321] - Quote
Say, uh... I noticed that at freighters, it says that now ADVANCED Spaceship Command is required at level 5, but if you look at the before and after skilltrees, there isn't any difference. You need Spaceship Command 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command 1 to fly freighters now and apparently after the change.
Figure there'll be some people letting out a sigh of relief ;P |
Flying Apocalypse
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:56:00 -
[322] - Quote
Regarding the part of Carriers and Supercarriers:
Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1 Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers and Supercarriers increased from 3 to 4 All racial Battleship requirements on Carriers and Supercarriers reduced from 5 to 3 Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)
(And it's fancy archon picture with training times)
Will carriers be changed to have all those jump drive skills neccesary as well? Or just supercarriers? Because I feel that normal carriers don't require all those extra jump drive skills, while they do feel kinda, needed, for supercarriers. Seeing how dreads don't require them either. For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o |
Kalenn Istarion
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:58:00 -
[323] - Quote
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? You do not need the command links to V but the basic Warfare Skills to V. The skills relevant to the command links are the specialist skills, not the basic ones. For example, you need Armored Wafare V, not Armored Wafare Specialist V. you need Information Warfare V, not Information Warfare Specialist V. you need Siege Warfare V, not Siege Warfare Specialist V. you need Skirmish Warfare V, not Skirmish Warfare Specialist V. you need Warfare Link Specilst IV.
Perhaps, but that's still 40+ days of training on what are likely unoptimized attributes for many people.
I'm going to give this a week to settle out and then start training all the T2 ship skills that are down a tree from another T2 skill, as it looks like, on balance, that it will be harder to get many of them. Try Harder. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
604
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:58:00 -
[324] - Quote
Arinyes Cantari wrote:Say, uh... I noticed that at freighters, it says that now ADVANCED Spaceship Command is required at level 5, but if you look at the before and after skilltrees, there isn't any difference. You need Spaceship Command 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command 1 to fly freighters now and apparently after the change.
Figure there'll be some people letting out a sigh of relief ;P Look at the primary after closely. The racial freighters will require Adv spaceship command. For current freighter pilots this is a non issue though, as they already have their racial freighter(s) injected. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3700
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 21:59:00 -
[325] - Quote
Arinyes Cantari wrote:Say, uh... I noticed that at freighters, it says that now ADVANCED Spaceship Command is required at level 5, but if you look at the before and after skilltrees, there isn't any difference. You need Spaceship Command 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command 1 to fly freighters now and apparently after the change.
Figure there'll be some people letting out a sigh of relief ;P There WOULD be people letting out a sigh of relief, if they actually understood how skill trees work. Instead they immediately flood the thread with posts crying about how they won't be able to fly their freighter anymore because they don't have ASC 5.
I fly a HAC. The HAC skill will have Energy Grid Upgrades 5 as a prerequisite, which I really don't ever intend on training. You don't hear me complaining though, because I know that since I already have the HAC skill trained I'll still be able to fly my Zealot after the skill change.
The only thing I'm worried about is having the ability, should I so choose, to later train HAC 5 without having to train EGU 5. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3700
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:04:00 -
[326] - Quote
Flying Apocalypse wrote:Regarding the part of Carriers and Supercarriers:
Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1 Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers and Supercarriers increased from 3 to 4 All racial Battleship requirements on Carriers and Supercarriers reduced from 5 to 3 Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)
(And it's fancy archon picture with training times)
Will carriers be changed to have all those jump drive skills neccesary as well? Or just supercarriers? Because I feel that normal carriers don't require all those extra jump drive skills, while they do feel kinda, needed, for supercarriers. Seeing how dreads don't require them either. Carriers and supercarriers both use the same skill (racial carrier). Those skills are being changed to require JFC 4 and JDC 3 as prerequisites. Again, if you already have the racial carrier skill, you'll be able to fly the ship without needing to train the jump skills.
There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Kalenn Istarion
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:09:00 -
[327] - Quote
Max McKeigh wrote:Alright, according to evemon and evehq, the current training time to sit a new character in a carrier with cal IV and fuel III, no other skills, just take it to the end of the driveway to get the mail, based on their '20 attribute across the board' model, would be 184-186 days. If their image shows the correct new train time, 146, this means an almost 40 day reduction. Which there is no way to stretch that into 'Similar training times' without suffering severe head trauma.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Shhhh
Shh Try Harder. |
Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
175
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:11:00 -
[328] - Quote
WTS: 45,000 iteron MK IV's as they are now absolutely useless!
JK. About me selling a bunch. They are useless now though. |
Flying Apocalypse
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:17:00 -
[329] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Flying Apocalypse wrote:Regarding the part of Carriers and Supercarriers:
Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1 Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers and Supercarriers increased from 3 to 4 All racial Battleship requirements on Carriers and Supercarriers reduced from 5 to 3 Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)
(And it's fancy archon picture with training times)
Will carriers be changed to have all those jump drive skills neccesary as well? Or just supercarriers? Because I feel that normal carriers don't require all those extra jump drive skills, while they do feel kinda, needed, for supercarriers. Seeing how dreads don't require them either. Carriers and supercarriers both use the same skill (racial carrier). Those skills are being changed to require JFC 4 and JDC 3 as prerequisites. Again, if you already have the racial carrier skill, you'll be able to fly the ship without needing to train the jump skills. There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement.
Ah alright, I am not a capital/supercapital pilot myself for now, so I don't know much more of the usual required(asked for) skills in normal capitals beyond stories. So I didn't expect it to be demanded since it sounds more like a skill for supers :) Oh well. Thanks for the answer. For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o |
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:19:00 -
[330] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Deornoth Drake wrote: I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.
What a bunch of crap about the Iteron and reimbursement. I'm pretty sure that after the tiericide there will be a max cargo variant (with minor differences) for every race. And the cargo size of that max cargo variant will most likely be even MORE skill bassed than it is today. So in order to have the equivalent of your current Iteron V after the tiericide, you will most likely STILL need that skill at V. or just hop into an orca |
|
Malakai Asamov
Van Diemen's Demise Scrap Iron Flotilla.
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:20:00 -
[331] - Quote
Roughly when is the summer expansion?
Based on the Australian summer surely!
In which case your late |
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:20:00 -
[332] - Quote
Interesting times. So the "Advanced Spaceship Command" skill continues to be useless at any level below 5 except for freighters which only requir level 1. And for "Jump Drive Operation"... is there any use for it at all before getting it trained to level 5? I guess I dislike skills that provide no tangible benefits as different levels are achieved. |
Sara Sue
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:32:00 -
[333] - Quote
Reducing clone costs for the extra 6.2mil sp that will be added would be nice, already clones cost too much and reduces pvp in smaller ships. |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
61
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:40:00 -
[334] - Quote
For all you whining about the 3 weeks you "wasted" on iteron V, I'd like to remind you of the 8m SP of drones that my Nyx cannot use under any circumstance |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:12:00 -
[335] - Quote
Looks pretty good, although I'm rather curious as to why CCP have decided level III is the amount to go to the next level of racial ship skills over level IV.
I assume training times, but it just seems like an arbitrary choice as it's IV that marks the boundry between the quickly trained levels I-IV and the much longer train for V. |
Rendiff
Flashpoint Industries
22
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:13:00 -
[336] - Quote
What's the point of having the Adv Spaceship command skill if the only ships that use the skill require it be at V? If it gives you a bonus to agility, but everyone has to train it to V that means that everyone has the same agility bonus, why bother having it?
Seems to me it'd be better to just give everyone that agility bonus off the bat, or make it usable by other ships. |
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:15:00 -
[337] - Quote
(This may have been covered in the 17 pages I didn't read but in case it wasn't specifically...)
CCP DEVS "If you can fly it today you can fly it after."
QUESTION - I noticed the new HIC, and Interdictor skills and command ship skills ..... Does this mean that if we can fly it today, after the patch we will have the new prerequisites given to us? (i.e. Grav. physics 4, information leadership 5, etc etc) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:17:00 -
[338] - Quote
One change I certainly do not like is merging the Navigation requirements for carrier into the skill requirements.
This will mess up my planned future skill progression (distant future, admittedly) quite a bit, since I had planned to learn the ship command part of the carrier requirements at the end of a PER/WIL mapping period, then remap for support skills (regular remap available by then) and learn the navigation part there.
That's no longer possible which means postponing carriers by a full year or burning another bonus remap, after the AI patch already ate my first :(. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
604
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:23:00 -
[339] - Quote
Ms Michigan wrote:(This may have been covered in the 17 pages I didn't read but in case it wasn't specifically...)
CCP DEVS "If you can fly it today you can fly it after."
QUESTION - I noticed the new HIC, and Interdictor skills and command ship skills ..... Does this mean that if we can fly it today, after the patch we will have the new prerequisites given to us? (i.e. Grav. physics 4, information leadership 5, etc etc) No, there is no need to give anything as you have the prereqs for the ship, racial ship V and the T2 ship type skill. Those are the only skills you need to enter the ship.
The rest is only for injecting the skill and apparently training it further, but not flying the ship. |
Mirel Dystoph
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:31:00 -
[340] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement.
And this is an important as fock question.
Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around. "Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise."-á |
|
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
58
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:32:00 -
[341] - Quote
This is probably spitting into the wind, but hey. My apologies to the mods beforehand. If the all caps is deemed offensive, please delete the post.
(1) IF YOU CAN FLY THAT SHIP BY THE TIME THE EXPANSION COMES OUT, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO FLY THAT SHIP AFTERWARDS TOO.
(2) NO, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE NEW PREREQUISITE SKILLS FOR FREE.
(3) NO, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET A REIMBURSEMENT OF SKILL POINTS FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU TRAINED THAT YOU NOW CONSIDER WORTHLESS.
(4) THE WAY THE SYSTEM IS PRESENTLY DESIGNED, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE PREREQUISITE SKILLS YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FURTHER TRAIN THE SKILL THAT REQUIRES THEM, BUT CCP IS LOOKING INTO POSSIBLY CHANGING THAT.
(5) IF THE SYSTEM REMAINS LIKE IT IS NOW, YOUR CLONE COST WILL INDEED GO UP (unless you have enough sp and are situation in the range such that the addition sp won't take you over into the next category).
(6) IF YOU CAN FLY THAT SHIP BY THE TIME THE EXPANSION COMES OUT, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO FLY THAT SHIP AFTERWARDS TOO. (repeated for emphasis). |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
93
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:32:00 -
[342] - Quote
MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?
What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests? Having several chars with Gallente industrial on LVL V, it annoys me a lot. |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
58
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:34:00 -
[343] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests? Having several chars with Gallente industrial on LVL V, it annoys me a lot.
All t1 industrials get a larger cargohold and max velocity as the level of the racial industrial skills goes up
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3069
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:40:00 -
[344] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Nightlund Audeles wrote:Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca. Nope, sorry Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh.
I would love the soft hypnotising hum of strip miners if they made soft hypnotising noises instead of harsh ear-scratching noises :)
Can we have the soft whoosh whoosh of ice harvesters back, please? Especially nice if the flowing blue field could be restored instead of the business pinstripe of the current mining/strip mining lasers.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mirel Dystoph
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:40:00 -
[345] - Quote
Mirel Dystoph wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement.
And this is an important as fock question. Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around. Reposting + definite statement would be good. "Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise."-á |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3897
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:51:00 -
[346] - Quote
Mirel Dystoph wrote:Mirel Dystoph wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement.
And this is an important as fock question. Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around. Reposting + definite statement would be good.
You don't need to train anything twice. (unless you get podded a lot) Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
161
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:56:00 -
[347] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests?
Viator and Occator. Ship bonuses on the Itties |
Mirel Dystoph
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:57:00 -
[348] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mirel Dystoph wrote:Mirel Dystoph wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: The only thing I'm worried about is having the ability, should I so choose, to later train HAC 5 without having to train EGU 5.
And this is an important as fock question. Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around. Reposting + definite statement would be good. You don't need to train anything twice. (unless you get podded a lot) And if I want to train HAC 5 after the change?
Edit: I just saw, that I quoted the wrong sentence... "Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise."-á |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
93
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:11:00 -
[349] - Quote
Irregessa wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests? Having several chars with Gallente industrial on LVL V, it annoys me a lot. All t1 industrials get a 5% bonus to cargohold size and max velocity per level of the racial industrial skill.
Thx, I forgot about those, thats good news.
|
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
90
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:12:00 -
[350] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mirel Dystoph wrote:Mirel Dystoph wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement.
And this is an important as fock question. Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around. Reposting + definite statement would be good. You don't need to train anything twice. (unless you get podded a lot) Now, Fozzie...this is not true if I fly a T3. Just for the ship exploding I have to train something twice.
|
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Lyta Jhonson
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:13:00 -
[351] - Quote
Devblog wrote:Assault Ships, Heavy Assault Ships and Heavy Interdictors classes are going to be renamed to Assault Frigates, Heavy Assault Cruisers and Heavy Interdiction Cruisers. Not sure if anyone cares, but why "Heavy Assault Cruisers"? I thought word "Heavy" was used to make difference between old Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships group names so if those are to be renamed why don't just call them Assault Cruisers (and Interdiction Cruisers)? In the end Heavy Assault Cruisers are less heavy compared to T1 cruisers than Asssault Frigates compared to T1 frigates. Yes, this will obsolete HAC and HIC abbreviations but experience shows that community shifts to new terms very quickly. |
Galphii
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
113
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:27:00 -
[352] - Quote
Thanks for putting such a huge effort into that blog Ytterbium, it's immense and comprehensive
Training ship skills to 3 instead of 4 makes a lot more sense, bravo.
The new chart looks a little empty above mining barges. Perhaps there should be a BS sized mining vessel with heavy drones and a fat ore hold at some point X |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1550
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:48:00 -
[353] - Quote
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? You do not need the command links to V but the basic Warfare Skills to V. The skills relevant to the command links are the specialist skills, not the basic ones. For example, you need Armored Wafare V, not Armored Wafare Specialist V. you need Information Warfare V, not Information Warfare Specialist V. you need Siege Warfare V, not Siege Warfare Specialist V. you need Skirmish Warfare V, not Skirmish Warfare Specialist V. you need Warfare Link Specilst IV. Of course note that Command Ships are being changed to support multiple links, hence the skills. Read back to the balancing future particularly the section at the bottom: Command and Conquer. I assume that's why it isn't level one of the specialist skills. |
Merouk Baas
523
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:58:00 -
[354] - Quote
I am confused by your blog, actually. Sorry.
It's because you posted screenshots of the ship prerequisites, but my brain works along the lines of "train this skill for this ship," but you haven't posted any of the skill screenshots.
I'm sitting in game, trying to compare the Amarr Carrier skill prerequisites with the actual Amarr carrier, the Archon, and it's confusing:
Amarr Carrier skill prerequisites: 1: Capital Ships 3 2: Amarr Battleship 5 3: Drone Interfacing 5
Archon prerequisites: 1. Capital Ships 1 2. Amarr Carrier 1 3. Jump Drive Operation 1
Why isn't the skill Amarr Carrier listed as the PRIMARY prerequisite for the ship? It's listed as secondary.
Why does the ship require Capital Ships 1 when the skill for it requires Capital Ships 3?
For the list of skills for the ship, why don't you list all the Amarr Carrier skill sub-prerequisites under the skill itself (currently in he Secondary requirements)? Why do you split the skills that are prerequisite for the skill Amarr Carrier all over the place inside the Archon list?
This carries over to the "AFTER" screenshot you have posted for the Archon, making it even more confusing. Because you added the additional skills to the Secondary category.
Here is what would make sense to me for "Archon, AFTER:"
Primary Skills: Amarr Carrier 1 + all the prerequisites for that skill
Secondary Skills: Jump Fuel Conservation 4 + JFC skill prerequisites Jump Drive Calibration 3 + JDC skill prerequisites
Tertiary Skills: Fighters 1? Fighter-Bombers for the super-carrier? other skills? or no tertiary at all
Your categories of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary don't make sense, for ships.
For skills, the categories kinda make sense.
But for ships they are a mess. |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:10:00 -
[355] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:In before Chr..... seriously? Given the amounts of money involved in RMT and the surplus of cheap technical talent worldwide, I don't think you fully appreciate just how compromised CCP's servers, corporate network, and offices are...
|
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
450
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:12:00 -
[356] - Quote
Pretty much exactly what I was expecting, except for some of the T2 skill changes, But it all looks great and very logical.
Glad so see it is now basically written in stone, so the debates and constant complaints can stop.
Only question left is when will the summer expansion come out. We have been told late spring, and I am pretty sure I read somewhere mid to late may, if all stays on schedule. Is this accurate? Or can we expect it sooner? or later? is it not decided yet?
I only ask as it seems the biggest issue many players have is how long they can wait to get these skills trained to 5. Battlecruisers is about a 1 month train. Attribute remaps can affect this by several days. Players do not want to panic and train it right away if their attributes are not ideal, especially if they can wait until next month when a new remap comes up, and then train it, and a bunch of other ship command skills under an ideal remap.
If the summer expansion is going to be released in late May or early June, then players with a remap coming up some time between now and the end of April can wait until their remap to to start battlecruiser 5 training. But if it will be released in mid may they need to start training it by early to mid April.
This seems to be the biggest concern I have come across in the last 6 months with regard to the skill changes.
Personally I already have them trained on all my active characters, but if I did not I would say to start BC 5 no later than the 1st of April, yet many players are waiting for a solid date to be given them by someone from CCP. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1045
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:13:00 -
[357] - Quote
The only complaint I have, is this doesn't seem as great as I had hoped it would be.
I think I liked the older way of lvling too much, where you tried to lvl everything, rather then importance on individual ships.
I don't feel most modules and the extra things to ship hulls are really fair or balanced, and don't really feel safe pinning all my hopes on one ship really.
I don't really feel like training anything up in the game really, with this new swing to things, especially with how bad the balance is. Honestly I would rather wait a year or two for issues to be fixed then continue lvling and unlocking new ships.
Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
PMolkenthin
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:15:00 -
[358] - Quote
So, just to clarify. I have all racial cruisers to 5, destroyers 5, and battlecruisers 5. After the changes I will have all racial destroyers and all racial battlecruisers to 5 right? Will I get SP refunded and have to buy the skillbooks?? |
FluffyDice
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
478
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:15:00 -
[359] - Quote
So after my alt trains for one freighter, in less than three days he can fly all of them? Am I the only one that seems ridiculous to? |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:30:00 -
[360] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
-1 That's just rude.
edit: why? because of the remaps, planning, skill books, opportunity cost, etc. It's too harsh to dump on a vet's time like that.
Quote:We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
/bated_breath |
|
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
90
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:35:00 -
[361] - Quote
FluffyDice wrote:So after my alt trains for one freighter, in less than three days he can fly all of them? Am I the only one that seems ridiculous to? Yes. Why is that ridiculous? How is that any more ridiculous than being able to fly all the Cruisers of a given race if I train Cruisers I?
Once you put the time into training for a Freighter, given that it's Advanced Spaceship Command V, then you've already done the "leg work" for piloting any Freighter. Besides, its not going to hurt anything to give people the choice to fly the one (or ones) they choose without having to grind 15d each time for Indy V.
Imagine this scenario: I only have a few things to carry, but I only have trained Caldari Freighter. Well, guess what! I can train Minmatar Freighter and in 30 mins be flying the fastest one!
|
Merouk Baas
523
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:37:00 -
[362] - Quote
FluffyDice wrote:So after my alt trains for one freighter, in less than three days he can fly all of them? Am I the only one that seems ridiculous to?
So what if you can fly all of them? Are you going to buy all of them to keep in hangar and fly one per day?
It's like being able to fly all the T1 industrials, who cares? It's nice if you're at a corporation POS and they only have Bestowers there, otherwise in highsec it's Iteron 5 everyday, with maybe a BattleBadger for fun once in a while.
There are slight differences in size between the freighters, but typically it's "fly the one you have" and that's it. |
Echo Mande
37
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:47:00 -
[363] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown?
Those are the basic leadership skills, not the ones for command links. The devs probably want to compensate for the longish training skills going away (cruiser V, prereqs for logistics/HAC) |
cneagle
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 02:01:00 -
[364] - Quote
i can atm fly most of the command ships. (only one i dont have is info 5) whats gonna happen with commands if i only have info warfare 4 and all commands require it as 5. does that mean im not gonna ne able to fly any of the commands until i get that to 5. if so thats kinda crap.
also would say that the combat commands(sleipner etc) should realy require lvl 5 in all as its made for combat plus certain bonus.
introducing +5 leardership skills( seige etc) to all cmd ships, is a bad idea cutting specialised chars (just sheild or amour support) from being able to feild commands.
considering not many ppl bother training info warfare to 5 as its just not worth the time |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
279
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 02:08:00 -
[365] - Quote
:POPCORN:
This thread really delivers in every aspect !
The only thing that seems a bit strange is the training time required for the orca. But lets wait and see what tiericide will do to it. Remove insurance. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
279
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 02:10:00 -
[366] - Quote
cneagle wrote:i can atm fly most of the command ships. (only one i dont have is info 5) whats gonna happen with commands if i only have info warfare 4 and all commands require it as 5. does that mean im not gonna ne able to fly any of the commands until i get that to 5. if so thats kinda crap.
Please read the blog again. Your issues are addressed there.
Remove insurance. |
Glaucolq
Pawnstars INC The Fendahlian Collective
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 02:56:00 -
[367] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Many people in situations similar to mine can currently fly the Archon with these skills: BS at V, JDO at 1, and Amarr Carrier at I.....
After this change, I will not be able to fly the Archon, as I wont have JDO V, let alone JFC or JDC
CCP CLEARLY state "if we can fly it today, we can fly it tomorrow.... "
Are you planning to address this?
As per CCP, if you currently have Amarr Carrier skill injected and trained for ( if can fly it now), after the expansion hits you are all set to fly it because it will still be there for you ( fly afterwards)....BUT..if you decide to train for one of the other race carriers, THEN you would need to meet the skill prerequisites to become able to inject and train the carrier skill. in Another words, at that time you will need to play catchup.
CCP, mind in confirming it?
|
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:02:00 -
[368] - Quote
So I didn't read the whole thread.. so if I'm saying something that's been said.. well too bad :p
The changes by and large I'm find with.. though I think 3 days into a BS is nuts, and going to lead to lots of noob tears early on.. that said, tough luck :p
Now, what really bothers me in 2 things..
Orca.. wtf.. Come on, either give us back our SP used in Mining Barge lvl V OR change the skills requirement on the Orca to make the time near the current one.. You are cutting it back by less than half. I'd like to see some consideration made there.. Everything else is at least close to what it was, but with the Orca you are just kicking those pilots in the balls for no reason.
Now the other topic is on Clones.. one specific part actually. I'd like to see CCP give anyone who before the split had an up to date medclone, an upgraded medclone free if the change puts them over their SP. It's not their fault, And they are not "gaining" anything, you just decided to change the sp and add more, the least you can do is make sure that if they could undock safely the day before the patch, they can the day after.
What about all the people at stations without medclone facilities, or in WH's and the like. They shouldn't be punished, or made to get out and dock at a station somewhere with a medclone just so they can not lose skills when they log in the next day if they get popped. I think this is a rather small consideration. Just bump them up a clone grade if needed.
That said, if they were already over their clones SP, well then thats their fault. And if they are under it enough that the change doesn't affect them, then so be it, no harm.
Just some thoughts. |
Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
45
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:15:00 -
[369] - Quote
Can we give some free SP to people who read the whole devblog or at least one or two comments before posting?
The level of RTFDB (read the dev blog) fail in this comment thread is epic. |
Dargon Swift
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:16:00 -
[370] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Komisches wrote:Brain is tired, missed something in that read: if i have frigate5/cruiser5 (across all races already) battlecruisers 5 and destroyers 5 making me able to fly all the damn ships, what the hell happens to all my skills? Simple, if you have all these skills to 5 then you are golden:
- Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5 will be removed from your character sheet
- We will give you Amarr Destroyer 5, Caldari Destroyer 5, Gallente Destroyer 5, Minmatar Destroyer 5, Amarr Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5, Gallente Battlecruiser 5 and Minmatar Battlecruiser 5 because you had all racial frigates and cruisers skills past 3 on top of Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5.
That's explained in the blog
Whew, this answered my big question. I recently achieved my goal of being trained to fly ALL non-titan ships, so I was going to be annoyed if I had to train any more Destroyer or BC skills to 5.
I have all frigs V, all cruiser V, all BS V, desy 5, BC 5, Command ship 5, all indy's 5, all freighters 4, JF to 3...so I'll be granted all those BC/Destroyer skills but will have to have the appropriate leadership skills to fly my Commandships? Glad I already planned to have them before summer anyway.
Much happier after this dev blog. |
|
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:16:00 -
[371] - Quote
A few points:
Changes are mostly fine, except 1, the industrial changes, there's going to be absolutely no reason what so ever to use anything but an itty V for anything post expansion, unless your rebalancing the industrials then.
Having to train all warfare skills to V is bloody stupid to be able to fly the field command ships, since many people who fly them will never ever use links, but nearly all of them will use hacs/t2 cruisers, so the old system was far better.
3rdly, not upgrading peoples clones is absolute bullshit, it's your change, your problem. If people don't read dev blogs it's not their fault. Aside from clones being too expensive as is (yay pay ccp for 5 yrs running get changed 100mill isk/pod), it's just not fair to make it our responsibility to upgrade our clone.
Lastly, your actually decreasing the time required to USE a capitol by a hell of a lot, since everyone had to train JDC IV to be in a fleet anyway, since all midpoints etc are done for that, now you can just cross train races into other capitols quick as you like and I thought quick cross training was something you wanted to avoid?
What the hell is with making people train Jump fuel conservation IV to fly it, but Jump calibration III? Did you get those the other way around, or like all ccp decisions, reads like you never play your own game. |
mkint
962
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:17:00 -
[372] - Quote
I have serious reservations over having everything requiring half the training time. Because that's what you did... now you wont have to train ship and equipment separately, one comes with the other. Having everything super easy to get in to will reduce the satisfaction of having persisted, and I can see how it could make the battlefield way less interesting. Why bother having a skill system at all, the way this is moving. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
Vamoran Umphari
BRAB0
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:26:00 -
[373] - Quote
I'm curious, as I've never played through a period of skill-changing relevant to my current trained skills before.
How is reimbursement handled, mechanically speaking? Will I wake up after Patch day maintenance with Destroyers X & Battlecruisers Y gone and, replaced with the appropriate new racial skills to fly all those I could fly before hand. Or are we reimbursed in the form of redistributable skill points? If it is the former then I'm not sure reimbursement is quite the correct verb, but fair nuff.
I think I'd prefer the latter on the basis that if this change is to enable specialisation then receiving SP to distribute back into my skill tree would allow me further specify by only injecting back into my chosen race, and use the excess SP to push me further along that race's progression. |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
31
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:27:00 -
[374] - Quote
The Progression of Spaceship Command, Advanced Spaceship Command, Capital Ships, lets see what is currently "Unlocked" at each level before and after? Before: SC 0 Mining Barge 1 Rookies, Frigates 2 3 Destroyers, Cruisers, Industrials, Assault Frigates, Covert Ops/Stealth Bombers, Electronic Attack Frigates, Interceptors, Strategic Cruisers, Transport Ships 4 Battle Cruisers, Battle Ships, Exhumers, Interdictors 5 BlackOps, Recons, Command Ships, Heavy Assault Ships, Heavy Interdictors, Industrial Command Ship, Logistics, Marauders ASC 1 Freighters 2 3 4 Jump Freighters 5 CS 1 Dreadnoughts 2 Capital Industrial Ships 3 Carriers, Super Carriers 4 5 Titans
After: SC 1 Rookies, Frigates, Destroyers, Mining Barge 2 Cruisers, Industrials 3 Battle Cruisers 4 5 Industrial Command Ship ASC 1 2 3 4 5 Freighters, Jump Freighters CS 1 2 Capital Industrial Ships 3 Dreadnoughts 4 Carriers, Super Carriers 5 Titans
I need to go back and check the T2 Ships for where they will land after the changes(need to check what was a skill pre-req and what was a hull pre-req etc)
It would be good to have something unlock on each level, eg Capital Ships 1? Maybe move Jump Freighters to this? Also spread out the T2 Ships a little, Maybe have the T2 unlock on the Skill above? eg Frigates unlock on CS1 and AFs/CovOps/etc unlock on CS2? |
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
48
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:45:00 -
[375] - Quote
* III -> III -> III chaining.
At first I found this odd, but then remembered that this is the same chaining used for missiles and guns between size classes. I think a case can be made for IV -> IV -> IV.
* Command ships and Leadership, 'dictors and bubbles
These dependencies make sense if the primary purpose of these ships is to command / interdict. However, many of the command ships, and the Sabre, were often used simply as assault BC (thus the HAC pre-req) or assault DD. Are there plans for T2 "combat" versions of these ships to be introduced?
* Carriers
It always struck me as odd that the only training difference between a carrier and a super-carrier was Racial Carrier III vs I. With the new changes, there seems to be no skill requirement difference between a carrier and a super-carrier.
And while the jump drive requirements might be perfectly sensible in low- and null-sec, they aren't relevant for WH carriers. There are carriers that spend their entire life in WH space, and never use their jump drive. Others use their jump drive to get to WH space, and thereafter do not. As such, the high jump drive skill reqs seem somewhat arbitrary, especially when compared to the proposed dreadnaught pre-reqs.
(Similar question arises with dreads: is a dread without siege a sensible dread? If it is, then the pre-req is somewhat arbitrary. Less of a problem in this case, since siege mode is useful for any dread, while it's entirely possible for a carrier to fully function as a carrier without using the jump drive)
* Recons and cloaking
Fully half the recon ship hulls don't actually care about cloaks. Force recons are a cruiser version of EAFs plus CovOps. Combat recons are a cruiser version of EAFs, despite the (existing) CovOps pre-req.
* In-class progression
IMO, some of the T2 frig -> T2 cruiser progressions made sense. AS -> HAC. CovOps -> Force Recon. EAF -> Combat Recon (oops!). Dictor -> heavy dictor (oops again). HAC -> Combat Command Ship. Especially since you didn't actually need the frigate racial hull to V to fly the cruiser version, and usually only needed the lower skill to IV (not V) to upgrade. I'm not against removing the chaining, but some of the replacements feel like time-stuffing the progressions to make up for the removal of more logical pre-reqs.
* Indys
One thing I really liked about industrials was that they had different progressions through the different races. Not simply "this is the Amarr / Caldari / Minmatar / Gallente X" - each progression was quite different. It would be a disappointing to see this fail in favour of uniform homogenisation.
* Training times in general
I understand the concern that there can be a big gulf between being able to undock in a ship and being able to fly it. Except for abilities locked to the hull itself (eg titan jump bridges), I'm not sure that this is a problem worth solving by stuffing the tech trees. If I want to fly a dread without a siege module and fitted with medium lasers and meta-1 armour, bully for me. Setting arbitrary "bar is this high to even undock" restrictions doesn't actually do much - other than be annoying - unless they are genuinely preventing the player doing something that would be game-breaking. A two-week old Titan Bridger disposable alt might conceivably be a problem. A two week old player undocking in a critically underpowered dreadnaught isn't.
Coming back the other way, I've always wondered why racial dread isn't a pre-req for racial titan.
But then, I'm of the opinion that the primary skill bar to flying a ship should be effectiveness, not an arbitrary quantity of training time. Give the player the choice what is a "sufficient" quantity of SP - especially in support skills - before they undock a ship, and let their wallet learn the hard way if they are wrong. Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
604
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:47:00 -
[376] - Quote
Vamoran Umphari wrote:I'm curious, as I've never played through a period of skill-changing relevant to my current trained skills before.
How is reimbursement handled, mechanically speaking? Will I wake up after Patch day maintenance with Destroyers X & Battlecruisers Y gone and, replaced with the appropriate new racial skills to fly all those I could fly before hand. Or are we reimbursed in the form of redistributable skill points? If it is the former then I'm not sure reimbursement is quite the correct verb, but fair nuff.
I think I'd prefer the latter on the basis that if this change is to enable specialisation then receiving SP to distribute back into my skill tree would allow me further specify by only injecting back into my chosen race, and use the excess SP to push me further along that race's progression. I don't think the idea of the "reimbursement" itself is to promote specialization, rather that is what the new skill progression is for. The reimbursement as it stands seems simply there to preserve the skill training choices you have already made. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:54:00 -
[377] - Quote
I currently have Command Ships trained but I don't have all the various Warefare Link skills trained to V. I understand I'll still be able to fly my Command Ships but will I not be able to train the Command Ship skill any higher until I have all the requisite Warfare Link skills to 5? Or how does it work exactly? |
Isaac Morrie
Gravimetrics Industries Redrum Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 03:59:00 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Komisches wrote:Brain is tired, missed something in that read: if i have frigate5/cruiser5 (across all races already) battlecruisers 5 and destroyers 5 making me able to fly all the damn ships, what the hell happens to all my skills? Simple, if you have all these skills to 5 then you are golden:
- Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5 will be removed from your character sheet
- We will give you Amarr Destroyer 5, Caldari Destroyer 5, Gallente Destroyer 5, Minmatar Destroyer 5, Amarr Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5, Gallente Battlecruiser 5 and Minmatar Battlecruiser 5 because you had all racial frigates and cruisers skills past 3 on top of Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5.
That's explained in the blog
I want to make sure I am reading this right. If I train Amarr Frigate and Amarr Cruiser to 3 I will get Amarr Destroyer and Amarr Battlecruiser 5 even though the Amarr Interdictors and Command Ships require Amarr Frigate 5 and Amarr Cruiser 5. |
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:03:00 -
[379] - Quote
"Removal and refund of all Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill books at the NPC order price."
So, massive headaches = 990,000 ISK refund.
Stop the pretense of doing us favors. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
604
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:06:00 -
[380] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:"Removal and refund of all Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill books at the NPC order price."
So, massive headaches = 990,000 ISK refund.
Stop the pretense of doing us favors. So you have a massive headache over some uninjected skillbooks? |
|
Sealy
The Huskarl's
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:08:00 -
[381] - Quote
Ok,
Its nice that you are giving the ability for all year and two year old players fly ships quicker and quicker for less skills. What are you going to do for pilots who spent the time for the 30 day trainings.
I would suggest that giving the ability for all players older than 5 years the choice to zero all skills then they can build their skills to the IV which is really all you need nowadays.
or give mods/ships to the older players that have all 5's or better tipple bonuses as they have painfully done the 30 40 day trainings for the 5s |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3070
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:13:00 -
[382] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:I currently have Command Ships trained but I don't have all the various Warefare Link skills trained to V. I understand I'll still be able to fly my Command Ships but will I not be able to train the Command Ship skill any higher until I have all the requisite Warfare Link skills to 5? Or how does it work exactly?
Warfare skills, not warfare link skills. The skills required for warfare links are the "warfare specialist" skills.
Thus you have "Siege Warfare" which provides a bonus to the fleet's shield capacity, then you have the Siege Warfare Specialist skill which improves the capability of siege warfare links.
The command ships skill will require the Siege Warfare skill and its equivalents, not the specialist skills.
This point has been raised and answered in this thread. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
35
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:27:00 -
[383] - Quote
Overall these changes are pretty great but I agree with Hans of the CSM on page one that JFC 4 and JDC 3 aren't a great idea for carriers. Some people in WH space have carriers with no need or intention of training any of the Jump skills ever.
Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration is a more logical choice to keep training time for a carrier high enough, and would nicely mirror the TWR requirement for Dreads. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:44:00 -
[384] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:I currently have Command Ships trained but I don't have all the various Warefare Link skills trained to V. I understand I'll still be able to fly my Command Ships but will I not be able to train the Command Ship skill any higher until I have all the requisite Warfare Link skills to 5? Or how does it work exactly? Warfare skills, not warfare link skills. The skills required for warfare links are the "warfare specialist" skills. Thus you have "Siege Warfare" which provides a bonus to the fleet's shield capacity, then you have the Siege Warfare Specialist skill which improves the capability of siege warfare links. The command ships skill will require the Siege Warfare skill and its equivalents, not the specialist skills. This point has been raised and answered in this thread. It was a typo. I meant Warfare skills not Warfare Links. I haven't spotted an answer in the first few pages. Can you link me where it was answered? |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
270
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:53:00 -
[385] - Quote
The only reason I've read this thread to this point is to click on peoples names and then click "hide posts" when their post boils down to "will I still be able to fly X, after the change?" or "Will you [CCP] refund my skill points for training X which is now useless?"
I highly recommend doing that, as it cuts out a lot of the idiocy and people who have absolutely no reading comprehension whatsoever in this thread. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Serith Ellecon
Fat Carebear Mining Club High Rollers
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 05:15:00 -
[386] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:I currently have Command Ships trained but I don't have all the various Warefare Link skills trained to V. I understand I'll still be able to fly my Command Ships but will I not be able to train the Command Ship skill any higher until I have all the requisite Warfare Link skills to 5? Or how does it work exactly? Warfare skills, not warfare link skills. The skills required for warfare links are the "warfare specialist" skills. Thus you have "Siege Warfare" which provides a bonus to the fleet's shield capacity, then you have the Siege Warfare Specialist skill which improves the capability of siege warfare links. The command ships skill will require the Siege Warfare skill and its equivalents, not the specialist skills. This point has been raised and answered in this thread. It was a typo. I meant Warfare skills not Warfare Links. I haven't spotted an answer in the first few pages. Can you link me where it was answered? Your understanding in your previous post (barring the mistake about link specs) was spot on. Also the Devs are looking at changing the code which prevents you increasing a skill you have injected already if you no-longer meet the pre-reqs. It's on about page 7 or 8, and yes, I'm starting to wonder if I need to inject [Threadnought] to continue in here.
Edit: it was page 10...
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 05:31:00 -
[387] - Quote
Thanks Serith Ellecon. |
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 05:45:00 -
[388] - Quote
Nice changes. It'll be great once you cleanup the T2 gun specs to not depend on the previous size as well Personally I would lean towards allowing training of skills with missing pre-reqs. You're making enough changes that getting missing pre-reqs is going to be fairly common.
The introduction of missing pre-reqs will replace oversized rigs as the new epeen boasting factor for older players. Oh yeah that pre-req, I didn't bother training it. I just force injected Amarr Dread....CAUSE I'M AWESOME |
Leelo dallasmultipas
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 05:48:00 -
[389] - Quote
CCP - I've read more comments than I usually care to so excuse me if I'm repeating info already transmitted, and I understand the new tier system pretty well. What I suggest is that if you are going to go with everything becoming racial you need to include command ships in that. I suggest that in each racial required command ship skill you place a prerequisite for each kind of bonus it will be giving. Information warfare 5 for gall, skirmish for Minny etc etc. to compensate for the reduced train time, up the sp for each of the corresponding leadership skills. I'm positive that after this looking back you will still sit there and be like "we took out the generic destroyer and battle cruiser skills so why the hell did we don't do it for the rest of them?" - this leads to an obvious problem, marauders, blackops, etc etc, seeing as these are also "generic" skills rather than racial. Change them as well. No point in not doing so. Second thing is clone cost (for most people, likely a non issue but indulge me). Right now we are paying x amount to cover x amount of sp. So someone who can fly every supcap in the game will still be able to, but they will be paying more for a clone sooner to do the same. Doesn't seem fair, especially since this clone coverage cost is isk that goes into the nether. Since I think it is unfair to give you a problem and be too lazy to consider a solution I say make the clone cost closer to "x isk / sp". Make more tiers and lower the cost for sp coverage a little bit. This is good for high and low sp pilots cause we all will have more sp, some more than others but it makes no sense that we will all be paying more sooner. ESP when we are paying...well...no one really. lol
Also, being able to fly a ship before and after is great, just so long as the skills required for the ship currently still are the ones effecting the bonuses to that ship. Ex, if command ships affects a bonus to the ship, and another requirement like armored warfare does, that's bull - because for those of us who fly command ships and don't do it for bonus purpose to lose effectiveness of the ship, that isn't good. I don't care so much if I can spin the same ships as I coul before, **** that, make sure that the bonus and functionality of every ship I can fly now will still be as effective to me after the patch. Sitting in a ship is overrated, having an awesome ship to be able to effectively use; is not. |
Eagleye13
Black Star Industries.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 05:55:00 -
[390] - Quote
I Am NOT A FAN of this Re-Mapping... For me It Seems CCP is Making it EASIER for NEW players and HARDER for older players... for me being an older player it is un-fair and ultimatly could drive me away from the game...Take for example the Requirements for the Command Ship... Why do i need all these extra WARFARE skills when i only need maybe 2 out of 3... It should be left to the pilot to customize his skill sheet with those so their is diversity when fighting others...This to me seems like you are balancing everything to the point where only Lock.Click. And Shoot Comes into effect...meaning everyone is equal and has the same effect against each other...Leave that to US thats what MADE Eve FUN...Knowing that we had the advantage because we spent the time to get their....by doing these changes it makes it easier for newer players to come up from nothing and take on us older players.......Remember who dominated the game of eve....The players, mainly OLDER Players(Game Time). In my view here CCP is duming eve down so that it so call balances the ships when in reality they are making it easier for the NEWER players to inflict more damage and accumulate isk at a faster rate that what we had the chance to do when we first started.....If this is the Case maybe everyone who has been playing for over 5 years should be given an ISK Gift from CCP so that we can have a fair inflated advantage!!!!! |
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
92
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 06:29:00 -
[391] - Quote
This is a very difficult job done very well. Bravo, CCP.
I could quibble with my alt having already spend 40 something days training for an Orca, but I figure most of the time sunk into the skills is worth it.
Also, my favorite part was where you pointed out that the skill points added won't automatically bump up your clone grade. There are going to be more sad pandas after the summer expansion downtime than there are in WoW right now. I think I might take the day off work and just go around podding people. To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 06:37:00 -
[392] - Quote
Eagleye13 wrote:I Am NOT A FAN of this Re-Mapping... For me It Seems CCP is Making it EASIER for NEW players and HARDER for older players... for me being an older player it is un-fair and ultimatly could drive me away from the game... You say you're an old player - and still didnt get it? Adapt or die. |
Lokitaur
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 06:45:00 -
[393] - Quote
Great job with changes on most of the pre-reqs to fit the essential mechanics of the ships you are planning to pilot. I really like that we can train some lower sp alts to fly more specialized roles, to die in cheaper clones, and have stylish haircuts.
Like some have mentioned, I wish you would embrace the same philosophy in regard to weapon systems--giving us the ability to skip capping out smaller arms on a character if we so choose. I think there are a quite a few throwaway tornado alts that would love to be brought into this world, then leave just as quickly.
17 day Orca pilots are going to be an interesting change; I suspect we will see quite a few of those flying about. You would really make our summer if you designed a new version of the Orca hull for the non-mining space-folk, like the wormhole or black-op ship many have begged for you to create. I propose something that can temporarily transform into a weak POS you can post up like a carnie tent in space to do your business, be it in the hole, hostile territory, or wherever you choose to roam. Make it only last a short duration in that mode and have painful fuel costs to keep things balanced. Maybe it would help to just give the Orca sub-systems like the T3 ships, allowing us to fit them out for the sort of gameplay we wish to engage in. There are a lot of Orca bonuses going to waste out there, and that ore hold can not accommodate my growing exotic dancer collection.
Command ships seem to be the biggest concern and where there is uncertainty. Depending how you reimburse the SP and where the player spends it will affect these ships over most other sub-caps--if you uphold their bonuses coming from BC and CS skills. Getting the racial destoyer skills to V will be easy to complement Dictor V, but I suspect BC V of each racial variety will still require three weeks or so to cap out for each, unless training time is reduced. I know the mantra is, 'if you can fly it now..." but the question is, "can we fly it as good as before," when we trained for all 4 races on a CS pilot? Will the SP you refund be enough just to cap out one racial BC to V and I have to choose which one, will it just get all my racials to 3 or 4, or can I cap them all with a generous fair share of CCP SP wealth re-distribution?
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Garia666
CyberShield Inc C0VEN
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 07:18:00 -
[394] - Quote
Ok so currently i dont have the destroyer skill trained at all. due to not having to found the need to fly one.
Does this change mean that i can basicly not fly anyother ship in game any more after these changes..
As almoste all ships now need destroyer skills...
|
Alexander McKeon
Cruelest Intentions
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 07:31:00 -
[395] - Quote
Rather unhappy to see all those jump drive skills on the carrier; what about those folks who'd like to get into carriers, but have no intention of ever activating the jump drive since w-space doesn't permit their use? |
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 07:35:00 -
[396] - Quote
Meh. So now my alts will have to train Adv. Spaceship command to fly Freighters? Or will they be given as they can fly Freighters now?
EDIT: nevermind, read several devs answers. Though it should be explained much better in original devblog. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 07:37:00 -
[397] - Quote
Garia666 wrote:Ok so currently i dont have the destroyer skill trained at all. due to not having to found the need to fly one.
Does this change mean that i can basicly not fly anyother ship in game any more after these changes..
As almoste all ships now need destroyer skills...
ex: if now u can fly amarr CR, that means u've got amarr CR at least lvl 1, right? after the changes hit, amarr DD will be inserted as prerequisites to train amarr CR, but u CAN STILL FLY it. |
Garia666
CyberShield Inc C0VEN
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 07:42:00 -
[398] - Quote
MuraSaki Siki wrote:Garia666 wrote:Ok so currently i dont have the destroyer skill trained at all. due to not having to found the need to fly one.
Does this change mean that i can basicly not fly anyother ship in game any more after these changes..
As almoste all ships now need destroyer skills...
ex: if now u can fly amarr CR, that means u've got amarr CR at least lvl 1, right? after the changes hit, amarr DD will be inserted as prerequisites to train amarr CR, but u CAN STILL FLY it.
Thanks for taking your time to awnser my question.
so eventough i dont have the skill requirments if you had the cruiser skill you still be able to fly the cruiser . so from every ship on ill see a red cross telling me i cant fly the ship but i still can... ? thats logics for sure..
|
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
54
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 07:47:00 -
[399] - Quote
Way to fuck race specialist, giving them less sp than other people.
Way to give people skills they don't want, I will get Gallente BC 5 out of that change since I got BC5 and Gallente cruiser 5, but don't have the slightest interest in flying one (no hybrid skills). Just got Gallente cruiser 5 for Cynabal and Oneiros, yet I will get extra useless SP that will count against my clone cost.
Giving people SP and leaving them affect them would be so much better... |
Jungleland Roy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 07:59:00 -
[400] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Unlike a lot of people in here I have read both the Devblog and this threadnought and I say that you had better get the above quoted discussion correct.
Take command ships as an example. I have done the old (exisitng) grind to fly the ships and have command ships to 4. You are now changing the grind (skill pre-requestites) and giving people some "months" to make a choice - which is fine.
They can either do the old grind now (as I have done) and fly the ships OR wait until the skill tree changes, do the new grind and then fly the ship. In other words choose a grind either now or later and complete it to fly the ship - and you are changing the grind to keep the training time somewhat the same - which I am also fine with.
But - and it's a big but - everyone should only have to do ONE grind to fly and SKILL UP a ship. If you make it so that I (having completed the previous requirements) need to complete the new requirements to further skill up command ships then that is a huge kick in the nuts for me.
I don't want SP refund, I dont want a free re-map, I just want to be able to continue to skill up any skill that I have previously satisfied the requirements for.
TLDR - One grind is good, two grinds for the same ship is BAD!
Get this wrong and you'll **** of a lot of people and I predict that your subs will suffer.
Roy
|
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Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:01:00 -
[401] - Quote
Role playing is not really a consideration, nor clone costs, since they should be minimal anyway, but that's a separate issue. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
740
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:04:00 -
[402] - Quote
nvm already answered I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Unkind Omen
Stone circle W-Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:08:00 -
[403] - Quote
The only nasty and really confusing thing in this skill split idea is the fact that racial battlecruiser and destroyer skills would get same ranks as their common counterparts have now. Do you think that command ships alone are that good so people would surely spend 1.5 mil SP for each one of them? I think that they are not that awesome. Most people train commands as a good bonus for having at least two of racial cruisers 5. And even now it would cost only an additional 1.2mil SP to cross-train commands through cruiser skills even if you would ignore the fact that the cruiser 5 skill is a must have skill for any experienced pvp pilot anyway as it provides access to SC, Logistics, Recons, HICs and HACs as weapons of destruction.
I think that you should consider lowering a rank of racial battlecruisers skill at least to rank 5( which cruisers have) or may be even lowering both cruisers and BC skills to rank 4. Personally I already have BC and destroyers V but I still cant forget that damn month I spent training BC V. How do you imagine new players to spend 4 months to get the same result? |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:17:00 -
[404] - Quote
On a serious note - supercapital skills are not streamlined. Supercarrier is a hull ABOVE carrier, so it should be a separate skill, with racial carrier as prereq. Same for titans and dreads. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
237
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:19:00 -
[405] - Quote
Uhhh... what about carriers requiring logistics 5??? Or wait.. I think Im thinking of the triage module or its skill requiring logi 5 to use. Doesnt make sense to me! Will you fix that too? Mostly mixed feelings about these changes but overall Im supportive of the initiative and optimistic. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
995
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:19:00 -
[406] - Quote
Jungleland Roy wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Unlike a lot of people in here I have read both the Devblog and this threadnought and I say that you had better get the above quoted discussion correct. Take command ships as an example. I have done the old (exisitng) grind to fly the ships and have command ships to 4. You are now changing the grind (skill pre-requestites) and giving people some "months" to make a choice - which is fine. They can either do the old grind now (as I have done) and fly the ships OR wait until the skill tree changes, do the new grind and then fly the ship. In other words choose a grind either now or later and complete it to fly the ship - and you are changing the grind to keep the training time somewhat the same - which I am also fine with. But - and it's a big but - everyone should only have to do ONE grind to fly and SKILL UP a ship. If you make it so that I (having completed the previous requirements) need to complete the new requirements to further skill up command ships then that is a huge kick in the nuts for me. I don't want SP refund, I dont want a free re-map, I just want to be able to continue to skill up any skill that I have previously satisfied the requirements for. TLDR - One grind is good, two grinds for the same ship is BAD! Get this wrong and you'll **** of a lot of people and I predict that your subs will suffer. Roy
What I particularly enjoy in reading the idiotic edicts in the dev blog is how someone who will be flying a Damnation needs Siege Warfare to V as a pre-requisite. It is very important that someone flying an armour boosting ship has to have a shield boosting skill to V, especially when that skill's primary attribute is charisma, which everyone maxes their character in.
I have flown Claymores with CS V for a long time, and of course with Skirmish warfare skills maxed. Stupid me, I should have known that I would need ALL of the boosting skills to V to soon fly this ship. I realized 2 months ago I would need Siege and Info Warfare when the Claymore gets the overhaul, but never expected I would need armour.
Brilliant design CCP. Cut flying Iteron V down to 33 minutes, obsoleting all other industrials, and wreck command ship pilots.
You want to negate any advantages your long term customers have? Why not simply remove ALL pre-requisites? If someone wants to fly a Titan, and they have the money, let them be in a Titan with a day's training. It is clear you are moving this way. We now have vanilla T1 ships in some cases more powerful than their Navy cousins. And the differential between T1 ships and their T2 cousins is so small that the T2 version cannot be cost-justified. So why would you wrecking massive time commitment by long term players to huge skill plans be that surprising. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:35:00 -
[407] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Why not simply remove ALL pre-requisites? If someone wants to fly a Titan, and they have the money, let them be in a Titan with a day's training. Yes, please! I want to be there, when he warps to the gate!
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:54:00 -
[408] - Quote
Deornoth Drake wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Deornoth Drake wrote: I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.
What a bunch of crap about the Iteron and reimbursement. I'm pretty sure that after the tiericide there will be a max cargo variant (with minor differences) for every race. And the cargo size of that max cargo variant will most likely be even MORE skill bassed than it is today. So in order to have the equivalent of your current Iteron V after the tiericide, you will most likely STILL need that skill at V. or just hop into an orca
Yeah, but he didn't train the Iteron V as a prerequisite for Orca, so that's not a valid argument.
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
996
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:58:00 -
[409] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Why not simply remove ALL pre-requisites? If someone wants to fly a Titan, and they have the money, let them be in a Titan with a day's training. Yes, please! I want to be there, when he warps to the gate!
CCP wants more ships getting blown up, and this sure seems to be the method they are choosing. It used to be that people learned the game mechanics in less expensive ships, because that was all they could fly, skill wise. It gave them time to recognize that ship support skills were in many cases far far more important than the ship skill itself.
That will soon no longer be the case. People with lots of ISK, but no ingame experience, will be flying ships classes they should not be in.
So new players can buy a plex, and in a matter of 3-4 days, be climbing into a BS hull. Brilliant, just brilliant.
I can't wait until all ship support skills are reduced to Tier 1, and T2 weapon systems get the same treatment as the ship hulls.
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FluffyDice
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
478
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:01:00 -
[410] - Quote
I hate the sound of the changes. I'm bitter about training choices not meaning as much. Everyone else seems to like them so whatever.
While we are making the game easy mode, I guess you may as well just go ahead and make clones free already. Additionally I think you should add an option to hide low and null sec gates from the overview. Maybe tie that into the safety system. |
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wafflethief
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:06:00 -
[411] - Quote
regarding capital skills, with capital ships 4 being a prerequisite for the racial skill, surely also having it as a prereq at level 1 for the hull is redundant and unnecessary? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:13:00 -
[412] - Quote
Garia666 wrote:Ok so currently i dont have the destroyer skill trained at all. due to not having to found the need to fly one.
Does this change mean that i can basicly not fly anyother ship in game any more after these changes..
As almoste all ships now need destroyer skills...
It may mean you cannot train additional levels on a lot of ships, unless they go ahead with that change as well.
I'd recommend investing the few hours it takes to skill destroyers to 3. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4470
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:16:00 -
[413] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
Is there any reason not to allow continued training as long as you have the skill injected already? Anyone who has the skill now has done the prequisite time sinks and paid the price to get the skill. It seems grossly unfair for you to suddenly take away their ability to train that skill anymore for no real reason and make them redo another timesink to regain their previous ability to advance the skill. If you're not going to allow them to continue training, you've better come up with a rock solid reasoning for it or you'll have a lot of people rightfully angry at you.
No matter what you decide I hope you give an answer very soon. Allowing continued training without prequisites will defuse the situation and stop people wasting time training skills they're not actually interested in. Confirming the opposite will cause problems, but the sooner you confirm it the more people can mitigate the effects by training the new prequisites before the changes. Either way some haste in making the final decision on this matter would be greatly appreciated. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:17:00 -
[414] - Quote
Caius Sivaris wrote:Way to fuck race specialist, giving them less sp than other people.
Way to give people skills they don't want, I will get Gallente BC 5 out of that change since I got BC5 and Gallente cruiser 5, but don't have the slightest interest in flying one (no hybrid skills). Just got Gallente cruiser 5 for Cynabal and Oneiros, yet I will get extra useless SP that will count against my clone cost.
Giving people SP and leaving them affect them would be so much better...
I you have ONLY gallente cruisers at 3+, you will only get the Gallente BC to V - at the exact same cost as your old generic BC V, which you deemed necessary to train at some point. So nothing will change for you.
If you cross skilled into other races' BC prerequisites, tough luck, but noone told you to do that if you only wanted to fly Cynabal and Oneiros. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3907
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:24:00 -
[415] - Quote
wafflethief wrote:regarding capital skills, with capital ships 4 being a prerequisite for the racial skill, surely also having it as a prereq at level 1 for the hull is redundant and unnecessary?
This is a requirement of the backend system we use to distribute attribute bonuses to ships and modules.
Cleaning up the way that the skills are displayed in show info is definitely something that needs to be done at some point. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Juwi Kotch
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:25:00 -
[416] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:On a serious note - supercapital skills are not streamlined. Supercarrier is a hull ABOVE carrier, so it should be a separate skill, with racial carrier as prereq. Same for titans and dreads. True
"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451 |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 09:44:00 -
[417] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So new players can buy a plex, and in a matter of 3-4 days, be climbing into a BS hull. Brilliant, just brilliant.
FluffyDice wrote:I hate the sound of the changes. I'm bitter about training choices not meaning as much. Everyone else seems to like them so whatever. I dont like these changes as well. But this is not a discussion thread, it's Q&A thread. Unlike Fozzie, who post in F&I forum to actually see the feedback. Here, the decision in made - just deal with it. Removing learning skills seems justified for me. The "III->III" scheme seems not. So what? Who cares? I just troll it a little, and get over it. I had my fun trying to figure out which carrier I'm going to train for. New players will not have it, they'll just train them all. |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
61
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 10:14:00 -
[418] - Quote
Regarding the industrial boosting ship changes, will we be able to change that mining barge 5 skill to the new ore industral 3? Dedicated boosters have trained that stupid mining barge 5 just to be able to fly the orca/rorq. Therefore it's useless for the dedicated boosters. So we will get back that skill's SP and from that train the ore industral 3, right? |
Prester Tom
Genco Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 10:16:00 -
[419] - Quote
Not so many people seem bothered by this, so perhaps I'm way off track here... but does anyone else feel a bit concerned with the push towards the simplification of Eve? It seems a little like it's being taken for granted that simpler=better, surely I'm not the only player who likes it for its labyrinthine qualities? |
knobber Jobbler
218
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 10:19:00 -
[420] - Quote
This is all great but...I trained BS V on three races to fly the capitals. If that isn't a requirements any more I'd like those skill points back as I would never have trained them to that degree. That's 100+ days of training another player doing the same thing after these change won't have to do.
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
27
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 10:39:00 -
[421] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:This is all great but...I trained BS V on three races to fly the capitals. If that isn't a requirements any more I'd like those skill points back as I would never have trained them to that degree. That's 100+ days of training another player doing the same thing after these change won't have to do.
True.
Want to trade chars with my 12M SP toon whom i eventually want to have capital skills too?
Gives you all the opportunity you could wish for to train those skills without investing 100 days in useless BS skills. (Which would btw. eventually be useful, if you decide on a whim to fly a BS for a while for a little variety.) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
27
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 10:41:00 -
[422] - Quote
Prester Tom wrote:Not so many people seem bothered by this, so perhaps I'm way off track here... but does anyone else feel a bit concerned with the push towards the simplification of Eve? It seems a little like it's being taken for granted that simpler=better, surely I'm not the only player who likes it for its labyrinthine qualities?
I'm all for having complicated concepts that are complicated for a reason.
The ship skill mess was just a relic of half baked implementations of new ideas though, so streamlining that was long overdue. Tbh, it shouldn't have been such a mess in the first place. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
27
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 10:45:00 -
[423] - Quote
Magic Crisp wrote:Regarding the industrial boosting ship changes, will we be able to change that mining barge 5 skill to the new ore industral 3? Dedicated boosters have trained that stupid mining barge 5 just to be able to fly the orca/rorq. Therefore it's useless for the dedicated boosters. So we will get back that skill's SP and from that train the ore industral 3, right?
Yes.
You will also get 10 PLEX as compensation for all the hassle you had to go through and a CCP employee will personally visit you to apologize, if you submit a number of suitable dates for that via petition.
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Unkind Omen
Stone circle W-Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 10:46:00 -
[424] - Quote
Prester Tom wrote:Not so many people seem bothered by this, so perhaps I'm way off track here... but does anyone else feel a bit concerned with the push towards the simplification of Eve? It seems a little like it's being taken for granted that simpler=better, surely I'm not the only player who likes it for its labyrinthine qualities? I think that the whole idea of this skill rebalance is just despite the fact that it surely simplifies the training a bit. In fact it make the game more newbie friendly than simple. Now the fact that you can fly Recons does not imply that you can fly coverts and thus it is still hard to train everything. However newbies will be able to go another training paths than old players had to. They may be will train carriers first and T2 ships after that because every t1 ship size is pretty much accessible. Well, may be the first weeks will be more of "I need to get money for BS asap" than "oh **** now I have to wait 1 more week to operate BS" and thus require much more active gameplay than it was before. And hell yes, everything for those who have ISK!
And for sake of justice never forget that hull skills are only the small part of skills one have to train to operate ship properly. One will have to invest a lot into core/gunnery skills before he will be actually capable of using larger hull sizes properly. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1615
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:23:00 -
[425] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Big question:
The tiercide was based on removing the ship classification on tiers, ballancing their power and putting them into "roles"...
What will happen to the T2 ships? they wil have roles too?
Advanced role - Makes the ship a better version of the T1 ( Assault, logistic, etc...)
Expecial role - Modiffy the ship into something New. (covert ships and dictors.)
or they will stay the same as they are today? without classification? Don't you think that T2 ships need a batter classification ?
Tech2 ships could use a better classification system yes, but that's just cosmetic. Not saying they are fine (Command Ship, Black Ops, EAFs, we're looking at you), but most of them have well defined roles already, as tiers weren't affecting them much. |
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Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:24:00 -
[426] - Quote
Unkind Omen wrote:And for sake of justice never forget that hull skills are only the small part of skills one have to train to operate ship properly. One will have to invest a lot into core/gunnery skills before he will be actually capable of using larger hull sizes properly. Every time they simplify the game a little - there is a lot of difficulties still left... until it's not. A bittervet can remember learning skills, no warp-to-zero, old-school probing, and all that things that I have no idea of. An interesting observation - CCP is fixing a lot of things that players have never complained of. Meanwhile, a lot of long-overdue problems remain unsolved... |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1615
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:24:00 -
[427] - Quote
Zent wrote:Wow will there be any reimbursement on the Iteron 5 industrial skill now only needing lvl 1 to fly it?
Nope, sorry. Gallente Industrial 5 is still useful to get maxed out bonuses however. As said before, we're planning to revamp industrials and purge them in the tiericide fires. |
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Bubbleboylol
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:28:00 -
[428] - Quote
I know most of you have been here longer then me, but do these changes not worry you at all? I have played almost every MMO out there and this is the only one that me and my friends have stuck with through the years. Eve is slowly shifting to accommodate a different player base then there core players. I say that because if you look at the shift in popular games as World of Warcraft or age of conan both i have played for a long time, they made it so easy to do anything that it's not worth the wait or time to even play anymore. They have pushed out there core players be cause it got overrun by the ( i want it now players ) and are now trying to make and keep them happy, that play get everything they want and then get bored and move on. i see this happening to EVE slowly and it is sad because working and building anticipation to own and or use a ship and know that anyone else has to put in same time or more time and effort to get the same or better. The whole reason the market is as successful as it is in EVE is due to the fact that it takes months to skill train a ship. Don't forget why there is all these ( stupid repeditive tedious ) little things you have to do is what keeps you ahead of other players and sets each player apart from each other and creates competition between others as most people get lazy, so if the game caters to that then people will get bored because the game will then be to easy and they will ask for ( more ) (new) etc and so on and never be happy. The point is no one will ever be happy so you have to decide when it is just pure laziness or if it really is a problem. ( most the time though it is just laziness ) I am not saying all the changes are bad but some are just way to easy... Mix it up add new skills etc do not take them away from any ship if anything add more. The realism of space and the depth of the skills that go into EVE is what is so intriguing to anyone that starts or is still playing EVE, Do you see pilots flying in real life 747 jets without first learning everything about most every plane including prop planes and small jets before they can even touch a 747? That is my point. I understand it is a game but how many space games offer the realism that EVE offers>?? We like the game hard to play as that is what keeps you and I coming back. If i want an easy game ill go download an app on the ipod or play COD etc. We have many options to play easy games. The people whining about how long it takes is just the type that ( want it now ) and have no patience. I know i would not keep playing if i could just get everything as easy as in WOW or other games the like. As that is why i do not play them anymore and why they have to keep screwing up other games so much because they did not know that they pushed there main player base out.
Good day fellow pilots! Be heard don't let them cater to the LAziessss! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3722
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:30:00 -
[429] - Quote
PARAGRAPHS Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1615
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:33:00 -
[430] - Quote
Tobin Shalim wrote:Apologies if this has been asked/answered already:
But for those of us that trained up BS to V to fly capital ships (or any other skill training such as this), are we to get reimbursement for the time/SP trained that you are now nerfing? Because what you're doing is making it easier for new people to get into these ships, while we spent all this time training for them in the first place, so shouldn't we get some form of SP reimbursement/compensation for this? Are we going to see this, or is it only for the racial Destroyers and BC skills?
Only Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills get reimbursed as mentioned in the blog. Racial battleships skills are however useful to have no matter what. |
|
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knobber Jobbler
218
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:35:00 -
[431] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:This is all great but...I trained BS V on three races to fly the capitals. If that isn't a requirements any more I'd like those skill points back as I would never have trained them to that degree. That's 100+ days of training another player doing the same thing after these change won't have to do.
True. Want to trade chars with my 12M SP toon whom i eventually want to have capital skills too? Gives you all the opportunity you could wish for to train those skills without investing 100 days in useless BS skills. (Which would btw. eventually be useful, if you decide on a whim to fly a BS for a while for a little variety.)
Not swapping my 92.5m SP for that :P
BSV isn't useless as I do fly BS but I honestly wouldn't have trained V in any of them if it wasn't for capitals. Its certainly something that needs to be reimbursed for those that want it.
CCP can't assume that because a player has a skill at V, they got it because they wanted it, they got it because that had too. In the case of BSV, myself and probably a ton of others only have them because they want to fly Dreads and Carriers.
So CCP, what are you going to do? |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1616
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:37:00 -
[432] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:Quote:Cloaking 4 added as skill requirement of the Recon Ships skill Isn't it a little counter-intuitive having to skill cloaking if you want to fly a non-cloak bonused combat recon?
A bit yes, but that's still one of the most fitting skills we could see for the whole Recon class. |
|
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
206
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:37:00 -
[433] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Zent wrote:Wow will there be any reimbursement on the Iteron 5 industrial skill now only needing lvl 1 to fly it? Nope, sorry. Gallente Industrial 5 is still useful to get maxed out bonuses however. As said before, we're planning to revamp industrials and purge them in the tiericide fires.
any ETA on either the blog for these or the F&I Feedback thread and stats? |
knobber Jobbler
218
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:38:00 -
[434] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Tobin Shalim wrote:Apologies if this has been asked/answered already:
But for those of us that trained up BS to V to fly capital ships (or any other skill training such as this), are we to get reimbursement for the time/SP trained that you are now nerfing? Because what you're doing is making it easier for new people to get into these ships, while we spent all this time training for them in the first place, so shouldn't we get some form of SP reimbursement/compensation for this? Are we going to see this, or is it only for the racial Destroyers and BC skills? Only Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills get reimbursed as mentioned in the blog. Racial battleships skills are however useful to have no matter what.
In your opinion. I would never have trained BSV if I didn't have too in three races. I only did it for Carriers and Dreads. It might be useful but not to me. I don't fly marauders, never have done, never will do. I'd like my 100+ days of training back, there's no good reason for you guys not to do this since BSV will no longer be a requirement.
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Deliora May
OMGROFLSTOMP
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:39:00 -
[435] - Quote
Bubbleboylol wrote:I know most of you have been here longer then me, but do these changes not worry you at all? I have played almost every MMO out there and this is the only one that me and my friends have stuck with through the years. Eve is slowly shifting to accommodate a different player base then there core players. I say that because if you look at the shift in popular games as World of Warcraft or age of conan both i have played for a long time, they made it so easy to do anything that it's not worth the wait or time to even play anymore. They have pushed out there core players be cause it got overrun by the ( i want it now players ) and are now trying to make and keep them happy, that play get everything they want and then get bored and move on. i see this happening to EVE slowly and it is sad because working and building anticipation to own and or use a ship and know that anyone else has to put in same time or more time and effort to get the same or better. The whole reason the market is as successful as it is in EVE is due to the fact that it takes months to skill train a ship. Don't forget why there is all these ( stupid repeditive tedious ) little things you have to do is what keeps you ahead of other players and sets each player apart from each other and creates competition between others as most people get lazy, so if the game caters to that then people will get bored because the game will then be to easy and they will ask for ( more ) (new) etc and so on and never be happy. The point is no one will ever be happy so you have to decide when it is just pure laziness or if it really is a problem. ( most the time though it is just laziness ) I am not saying all the changes are bad but some are just way to easy... Mix it up add new skills etc do not take them away from any ship if anything add more. The realism of space and the depth of the skills that go into EVE is what is so intriguing to anyone that starts or is still playing EVE, Do you see pilots flying in real life 747 jets without first learning everything about most every plane including prop planes and small jets before they can even touch a 747? That is my point. I understand it is a game but how many space games offer the realism that EVE offers>?? We like the game hard to play as that is what keeps you and I coming back. If i want an easy game ill go download an app on the ipod or play COD etc. We have many options to play easy games. The people whining about how long it takes is just the type that ( want it now ) and have no patience. I know i would not keep playing if i could just get everything as easy as in WOW or other games the like. As that is why i do not play them anymore and why they have to keep screwing up other games so much because they did not know that they pushed there main player base out.
Good day fellow pilots! Be heard don't let them cater to the LAziessss!
Well I don't think training is going to be severely shorter. The requirements just make more sense now and I appreciate the way they change them - even if I trained myself to fly certain ships that I barely touch for another *grumble grumble* (dictor and HIC I am looking at you!). The question that is on my mind is the one regarding freighters. I thought they were fine the way they were. Training Advanced Spaceship Command 5 for them ... well I won't say I can't see the reasoning behind it but it is still a serious pain in the arse. So far the freighter was expensive (it still is) but a relatively easy to access ship for pilots that had to move large amounts of items / ore through the universe. And it also made sense to train for it since you needed the industrial skill on 5 for the transports as well as the freighter. Thus my question: Is the change really necessary? |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1616
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:41:00 -
[436] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:MisterAl tt1 wrote:Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case? I missed that one in the changes. If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words. I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together. You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I. You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites. This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous. I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans.
It's not stupid, it's actually part of the Tiericide initiative. A tech1 ship shouldn't require the corresponding skill at 5 to fly. There also shouldn't be such thing as "the best tech1 industrial".
While getting new players in remains a noble side-goal, the main reason this is being done is to give each and every single ship with a proper role, not to leave them as crappy transition steps. Transition steps don't work in sandbox MMOs. |
|
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1617
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:47:00 -
[437] - Quote
Flying Apocalypse wrote:Regarding the part of Carriers and Supercarriers:
Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1 Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers and Supercarriers increased from 3 to 4 All racial Battleship requirements on Carriers and Supercarriers reduced from 5 to 3 Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)
(And it's fancy archon picture with training times)
Will carriers be changed to have all those jump drive skills neccesary as well? Or just supercarriers? Because I feel that normal carriers don't require all those extra jump drive skills, while they do feel kinda, needed, for supercarriers. Seeing how dreads don't require them either.
Changes affect both Carriers and Supercarriers (not suppercarrier as I previously wrote it ) equally. |
|
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
258
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:48:00 -
[438] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
I dont want to have to retrain new prerequisites just to increase my ship level of something i have already trained. |
Cain Leigh
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:56:00 -
[439] - Quote
Rexitx wrote:Quote:The ORE branch (Venture, Noctis, Orca, Rorqual plus all mining barge variations) has been tweaked to a consistent progression. For instance, the Rorqual will not need Mining Barges 5 to be flown anymore, but will instead require the Industrial Command Ship skill at 3, itself requiring ORE Industrial at 3. Awesome change, any thoughts on allowing refunds for the now unneeded barge skills?
Yes, this..
I never mine but learned the barge skills on my chars just for the orca |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1617
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:56:00 -
[440] - Quote
Merouk Baas wrote:I am confused by your blog, actually. Sorry.
It's because you posted screenshots of the ship prerequisites, but my brain works along the lines of "train this skill for this ship," but you haven't posted any of the skill screenshots.
I'm sitting in game, trying to compare the Amarr Carrier skill prerequisites with the actual Amarr carrier, the Archon, and it's confusing:
Amarr Carrier skill prerequisites: 1: Capital Ships 3 2: Amarr Battleship 5 3: Drone Interfacing 5
Archon prerequisites: 1. Capital Ships 1 2. Amarr Carrier 1 3. Jump Drive Operation 1
Why isn't the skill Amarr Carrier listed as the PRIMARY prerequisite for the ship? It's listed as secondary.
Why does the ship require Capital Ships 1 when the skill for it requires Capital Ships 3?
For the list of skills for the ship, why don't you list all the Amarr Carrier skill sub-prerequisites under the skill itself (currently in he Secondary requirements)? Why do you split the skills that are prerequisite for the skill Amarr Carrier all over the place inside the Archon list?
This carries over to the "AFTER" screenshot you have posted for the Archon, making it even more confusing. Because you added the additional skills to the Secondary category.
Here is what would make sense to me for "Archon, AFTER:"
Primary Skills: Amarr Carrier 1 + all the prerequisites for that skill
Secondary Skills: Jump Fuel Conservation 4 + JFC skill prerequisites Jump Drive Calibration 3 + JDC skill prerequisites
Tertiary Skills: Fighters 1? Fighter-Bombers for the super-carrier? other skills? or no tertiary at all
Your categories of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary don't make sense, for ships.
For skills, the categories kinda make sense.
But for ships they are a mess.
It's displayed that way because the skill requirement tab UI is a mess, and of technical reasons we need to look into at. Yes it's confusing |
|
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3726
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 11:57:00 -
[441] - Quote
Katarina Reid wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just to clarify one valid question.
- Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
- However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.
Ex:
- You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
I dont want to have to retrain new prerequisites just to increase my ship level of something i have already trained.
Well just wait and see, you may not have to. They're still deciding on that. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Bubbleboylol
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:04:00 -
[442] - Quote
Deliora May wrote:Bubbleboylol wrote:I know most of you have been here longer then me, but do these changes not worry you at all? I have played almost every MMO out there and this is the only one that me and my friends have stuck with through the years. Eve is slowly shifting to accommodate a different player base then there core players. I say that because if you look at the shift in popular games as World of Warcraft or age of conan both i have played for a long time, they made it so easy to do anything that it's not worth the wait or time to even play anymore. They have pushed out there core players be cause it got overrun by the ( i want it now players ) and are now trying to make and keep them happy, that play get everything they want and then get bored and move on. i see this happening to EVE slowly and it is sad because working and building anticipation to own and or use a ship and know that anyone else has to put in same time or more time and effort to get the same or better. The whole reason the market is as successful as it is in EVE is due to the fact that it takes months to skill train a ship. Don't forget why there is all these ( stupid repeditive tedious ) little things you have to do is what keeps you ahead of other players and sets each player apart from each other and creates competition between others as most people get lazy, so if the game caters to that then people will get bored because the game will then be to easy and they will ask for ( more ) (new) etc and so on and never be happy. The point is no one will ever be happy so you have to decide when it is just pure laziness or if it really is a problem. ( most the time though it is just laziness ) I am not saying all the changes are bad but some are just way to easy... Mix it up add new skills etc do not take them away from any ship if anything add more. The realism of space and the depth of the skills that go into EVE is what is so intriguing to anyone that starts or is still playing EVE, Do you see pilots flying in real life 747 jets without first learning everything about most every plane including prop planes and small jets before they can even touch a 747? That is my point. I understand it is a game but how many space games offer the realism that EVE offers>?? We like the game hard to play as that is what keeps you and I coming back. If i want an easy game ill go download an app on the ipod or play COD etc. We have many options to play easy games. The people whining about how long it takes is just the type that ( want it now ) and have no patience. I know i would not keep playing if i could just get everything as easy as in WOW or other games the like. As that is why i do not play them anymore and why they have to keep screwing up other games so much because they did not know that they pushed there main player base out.
Good day fellow pilots! Be heard don't let them cater to the LAziessss! Well I don't think training is going to be severely shorter. The requirements just make more sense now and I appreciate the way they change them - even if I trained myself to fly certain ships that I barely touch for another *grumble grumble* (dictor and HIC I am looking at you!). The question that is on my mind is the one regarding freighters. I thought they were fine the way they were. Training Advanced Spaceship Command 5 for them ... well I won't say I can't see the reasoning behind it but it is still a serious pain in the arse. So far the freighter was expensive (it still is) but a relatively easy to access ship for pilots that had to move large amounts of items / ore through the universe. And it also made sense to train for it since you needed the industrial skill on 5 for the transports as well as the freighter. Thus my question: Is the change really necessary?
Well IMHO The skill sets as they are, are well thought out, as they did include ( learn how to fly this before this ) and some ships may require that you have to learn lvl 5 of another skill to operate said freighter as it has some of the same on board uses as other transport ships etc. If you skip the as it's called step ships i think then it will only serve SOLELY to bring in new players and cater to them. I am not against new players at all but if they want to play this game then they need to take on the responsibility and the patience it takes to be a capsuleer in EVE. Or we can like i saw in another post just disregard the prereq all together and just do what all other MMO's do now. |
FluffyDice
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
478
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:07:00 -
[443] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:I dont like these changes as well. But this is not a discussion thread, it's Q&A thread. Unlike Fozzie, who post in F&I forum to actually see the feedback. Here, the decision in made - just deal with it.
First post:
CCP Gargant wrote:We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread.
If you say so Sinzor. |
Aurora RedNova
A-31 Shattered Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:18:00 -
[444] - Quote
It is REALLY about time for revamping industrials. I mean Tech2 haulers with max skills and even tech2 Rigs like a Bustard a slow like hell but can-¦t even haul a battleship. And plz why amarr and minmatar have superb ship models for their Tech2 haulers but caldari and galente not???
*Praying to big CCP god*
|
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:18:00 -
[445] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:It's not stupid, it's actually part of the Tiericide initiative. A tech1 ship shouldn't require the corresponding skill at 5 to fly. There also shouldn't be such thing as "the best tech1 industrial".
While getting new players in remains a noble side-goal, the main reason this is being done is to give each and every single ship with a proper role, not to leave them as crappy transition steps. Transition steps don't work in sandbox MMOs. 1) What was the goal of "III->III" system? 2) Unless you set Freighter V as prereq. for Jump Freighters, I reserve my right to call that changes stupid, regardless of streamlining, tiercide and other fancy words. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1127
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:18:00 -
[446] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Flying Apocalypse wrote:Regarding the part of Carriers and Supercarriers:
Racial Carrier requirements on the Archon, Wyvern, Nyx and Hel have been reduced from 3 to 1 Capital Ships requirement on all Carriers and Supercarriers increased from 3 to 4 All racial Battleship requirements on Carriers and Supercarriers reduced from 5 to 3 Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)
(And it's fancy archon picture with training times)
Will carriers be changed to have all those jump drive skills neccesary as well? Or just supercarriers? Because I feel that normal carriers don't require all those extra jump drive skills, while they do feel kinda, needed, for supercarriers. Seeing how dreads don't require them either. Changes affect both Carriers and Supercarriers (not suppercarrier as I previously wrote it ) equally.
Remember to eat, and you'll avoid this problem. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1618
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:25:00 -
[447] - Quote
Alrigh folks, good news.
We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.
Ex:
You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.
Hope that's clear - trying my very best |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3728
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:29:00 -
[448] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best I love you. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
302
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:29:00 -
[449] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
In before you get flamed for dumbing the game down :D So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Villani Capelli
Vera Cruz. Nulli Secunda
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:33:00 -
[450] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
You are the best dev. |
|
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:38:00 -
[451] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. As I neared the last page of the threadnaught (yes I read the whole thing) I was wondering if there would be something really good at the end. There was and thank you Ytterbium for getting that to us pretty darn quick. Of course this opens up a whole new round of minmax scenarios but the thread is already too cluttered so I won't go there right now. EVEMon skillplan day here I come. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:45:00 -
[452] - Quote
Good day,
with everything else on my mind being stated already, I would like to point your attention to the prereq of Industry V for Mining Barges.
If I'd ever decide to skill for them in order to mine, does not mean I would also like to get into production. E.g. I'd rather be able to refine my own stuff and hence in my view a prereq of Refining 5 would fit better into that list then Industry will ever be.
I would even go as far as also removing the skill Industry 1 as prereq for Refining as an added bonus to the new specialization initiative.
Alternatively I'd even rather train spaceship command to 5 or something in that vein, than being forced to skill something I would not ever need to fly that ship effectively.
Thanks for your advertency.
Savira Terrant |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
554
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:46:00 -
[453] - Quote
The changes look very good .. some tweaks may have to be done but over all it looks very promising. Good work.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts.
124
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:47:00 -
[454] - Quote
Not that I'm complaining, if I understand right, BUT:
If I Can fly the Nighthawk comand ship but not the vulture, due to their tetiary skills.
after the change those skill are removed, I can fly both because I have Caldari Battlecruiser 5 and Comand Ships 1 (being the primary and secondary skill requirement)
although I dont have all the warfare skills.
In wich case I'm actualy allowed to fly a 4 ships I wasn't able to fly beore the change.
Corect? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
824
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:51:00 -
[455] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Good news, everything else would have been really stupid We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Malcanis - CSM 8 |
James1122
Red Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:52:00 -
[456] - Quote
James1122 wrote:Hi,
The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.
My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?
Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.
Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time) Two Step for CSM |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:56:00 -
[457] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:Almost one year ago, CCP Ytterbium announced plans to split the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills into racial equivalents for each of the factions. This change will go through in the expansion planned for this summer and Ytterbium has penned all of the details into one dev blog. You can read it all here. Please remember that if you can fly it before the split, you can fly it after. This applies to all of the listed changes. We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread. Ok i see some hole in case of skill reimbursement. This char: I fly electronic attack ships, and use them ... but i dont have Long Range Targeting LvL 5 - other skills where more important. So if i fly this now - will i get Long Range Targeting LvL 5 ?
No , you wont. You will still be able to fly the ship but not train the ship skill. Best to train it to V now and you wont have any issues. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3910
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:58:00 -
[458] - Quote
James1122 wrote:James1122 wrote:Hi,
The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.
My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?
Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.
Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time)
Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
341
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:59:00 -
[459] - Quote
James1122 wrote:Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time)
It was written (by a dev) that you would have to check and upgrade your clone accordingly at your own cost. Try search for it... |
Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:08:00 -
[460] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Can we give some free SP to people who read the whole devblog or at least one or two comments before posting?
The level of RTFDB (read the dev blog) fail in this comment thread is epic. I know what you mean. Though, even if they did decide they would actually do this, how would they know who read it first? ;) Actually, I think it would be hilarious if they give everyone who evidently read it 1 skill point. XD |
|
James1122
Red Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:10:00 -
[461] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:James1122 wrote:James1122 wrote:Hi,
The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.
My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?
Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.
Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time) Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.
Thank you for your reply! Anything we can do to get this pushed up the priority board because a mechanic that penalizes vets and disincentives pvp just feels wrong on every level!!
Pinky Denmark wrote:James1122 wrote:Please can I get a Dev comment on this? (even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time) It was written (by a dev) that you would have to check and upgrade your clone accordingly at your own cost. Try search for it...
And congrats for not actualy reading my post properly. I really would gladlygive a dev -ú50+ to allow us to neg rep people on this forum >.< Two Step for CSM |
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
159
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:11:00 -
[462] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Our hero! |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
547
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:22:00 -
[463] - Quote
CCP
You are contradicting yourself and screwing things up here.
Quote:We are changing skill requirements to keep a training time close to what we have in game right now and to make sure players meet more relevant prerequisites when gearing for Capital Ships
Wrong....
Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days Orca > 49 days to 17 days
These are clearly not "close to what we have in game right now"
You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.
This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.
The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless.
If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. |
Jungleland Roy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:25:00 -
[464] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Thank you
Good decision. The rest I'm 100% behind you with.
Cheers Roy |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4475
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:25:00 -
[465] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Thank you for the quick reply. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
788
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:38:00 -
[466] - Quote
I made sure to inject Command Ships into the alt I intend to train it on later ;)
CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. That's cool to hear. |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:54:00 -
[467] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best Edge case question: what if the skill is at zero, i.e. the skill is injected and either untrained or only partially trained towards level 1?
|
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:55:00 -
[468] - Quote
Alcius wrote:For me it looks like the promise GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ is broken here in big parts.
I-¦m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players. These changes might be an easier way for newer players to get into specific hulls, but the reimbursements and some of these changes hurt older players very hard. I know that usually there are always some victims within such deep changes, but parts are really p'$5145 me off (and I-¦m rather a calm person). On paper these changes might look good from a beginners point, but not if you are capable, trained and used to fly different ships already. These players will loose to much of their playstyles and flexibilitiy.
Destroyers and Battlecruisers: Currently I have trained both of these skills to level 5 and all additional requirements meet to fly every Tier1 Destroyer/Battlecruiser of every faction with maximum bonuses. So if I got this right, I will get a reimbursement and can reinvest in the approriate racial skill - BUT ONLY FOR ONE AT LEVEL 5 AGAIN. That means that I loose 3/4 of my bonuses of these ships, since I get only enough skill points to maximize one race to level 5. Apart that I will also have to buy the skillbooks, right? I don-¦t care here, that I might be able to fly them with level 1, but the time it will take me to be at the same skill level again.
Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Battleships requirements: Since Cruisers now require the respective racial Destroyer skill at level 3, what happens to these, if I only get enough skill points reimbursed to maximize racial Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill? E.g. currently having Destroyers/Battlecruisers at 5; and I like to fly the Cormorant, Arbitrator, Hurricane and Dominix. After the changes I cannot fly these, until I have the proper Racial prerequired skills trained, but I do not get enough reimbursement points to be at the same level and forced to decide which of these vessels I have to sacrifice for a while.
Impacts on fittings: Well, since you will loose different ship bonuses, you won-¦t be able to use the current fittings or at least they will loose their power. Yay - NOT!
Industrials/Orca: These changes are exaggerated! I mean Iteron V from 24d down to 33 minutes!?! WoOt, everyone will only use them instead of the other industrials, because of the cargo capacity/training time in comparison. I also feel betrayed here.
Swapping skills: With these changes you also break promisses, since if the player doesn-¦t have the other skill trained to the required level, he won-¦t be able to fly this. Especially Command Ships and Freighter changes are very rough! That-¦s over ~ one month of training!!! Direkt impact on Electronic Attack Ships, Command Ships, as well as Interdictors, Heavy Assault Ships, Recon Ships, Heavy Interdictors as well - isn-¦t that too much at a time?!
Reimbursement statement: This is just simply not enough. You should reimburse the players in a way, that they suffer as little as possible. I mean it-¦s not our mistake that you rebalance this, so why should we be the ones taking the hit? We should be able to remain at our current achieved skill ranks and ships. If it would only mean to have to train up some skills in less than a week, that-¦s ok, but in many cases it will rather take several weeks. There should be either given out additional free skill points, remaps or special one-time implants/boosters which speed up the training. Also originally your quote "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" should have been expanded with "at the same level". I comes to my mind that you might not have taken into account, that players actually have training plans, which you are messing up in big parts.
There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes...
Damn you are dumb. Try reading the actual topic before complaining.
Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:55:00 -
[469] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:
You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.
This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.
For capital ships quite a few days of navigation skills were added, which should compensate somewhat, especially since it's on another mapping entirely.
Also it makes no sense at all to compare the times used to ENTER a ship. There's a ton of skills required to actually fly a ship and those don't change at all.
So what if the lvl 1 skill for Armageddon Navy Issue was reduced from 7 days to 3 days? Only a moron or a desperate person would fly that thing without at least 100-150 days in support and gunnery skills and to fly the ship efficiently you would also need the BS skill at least at IV, better yet V, which takes longer than BS1 in the first place.
So you're looking at a change from something like 144-184 days to 140-180. Big deal.
Where the new system really shines is if you already have all the support skills and need to change to another race's shis due to guild doctrin, as it severly cuts down on training time.
|
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:04:00 -
[470] - Quote
Alexandra Alt wrote:Nalha Saldana wrote:Alexandra Alt wrote:So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:
I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4. On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.
Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to? Read the blog properly, you will still be able to fly the ships and train the skill without the necessary prereq skills. It is clear yes I can still fly the ship, as I stated in the first paragraph, I knew that already. The issues are actually 2: a) Will it check the pre-reqs when I add the skill in queue to train it from 4 to 5 and not allow me to ? b) Will another skill that requires (as an example) Command Ship 5 require me to get * warfare skills to 5 ? If the answer to any of the questions above is yes, then it makes no sense at all, remove the pre-req checks id you have the skill injected at least.
Man , you just don't quit do you? Read the ******* topic. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3730
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:05:00 -
[471] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Rommiee wrote:
You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.
This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.
For capital ships quite a few days of navigation skills were added, which should compensate somewhat, especially since it's on another mapping entirely. Also it makes no sense at all to compare the times used to ENTER a ship. There's a ton of skills required to actually fly a ship and those don't change at all. So what if the lvl 1 skill for Armageddon Navy Issue was reduced from 7 days to 3 days? Only a moron or a desperate person would fly that thing without at least 100-150 days in support and gunnery skills and to fly the ship efficiently you would also need the BS skill at least at IV, better yet V, which takes longer than BS1 in the first place. So you're looking at a change from something like 144-184 days to 140-180. Big deal. Where the new system really shines is if you already have all the support skills and need to change to another race's shis due to guild doctrin, as it severly cuts down on training time. Well actually I can see part of where they're coming from. Whereas part of the skills required to fly the ship have been removed, some of the skills required to fly the ship well have been added to the requirements. So it takes the same amount of time to get into the ship, but it takes less time to train the skills necessary to fly the ship well.
So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:07:00 -
[472] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3732
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:08:00 -
[473] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.
Radius Prime wrote:Man , you just don't quit do you? Read the ******* topic. Perhaps you should take your own advice. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
302
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:10:00 -
[474] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.
Try the last page... So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1281
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:12:00 -
[475] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:
Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days Orca > 49 days to 17 days
Thats funny, none of the times that anybody else comes up with are anything close to yours. In fact many t2 ships actually take a bit longer to train into after this change, and by a bit, some are significantly longer.
I
Rommiee wrote:The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless.
If they need to be trained anyway why do you care if they add them in as prereqs?
Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.
Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing.
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1281
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:12:00 -
[476] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.
You could, you know, just across the board cut them all in half and I'd love you long time.
|
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
302
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:13:00 -
[477] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:In before you get flamed for dumbing the game down :D
Rommiee wrote:You are dumbing the game down once again. [...] If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.
Boom, i'm a freaking prophet! So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
|
Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:13:00 -
[478] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.
It has already been answered. You will still be able to train it.
#447
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:19:00 -
[479] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.
Unless you're that WH carrier pilot, who cannot simply jump into his skill V Abaddon for a roam into that neighbour WH now, because he skilled useless jump drive skills instead of BS V :).
There's ups and downs for everything. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3733
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:24:00 -
[480] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.
Unless you're that WH carrier pilot, who cannot simply jump into his skill V Abaddon for a roam into that neighbour WH now, because he skilled useless jump drive skills instead of BS V :). There's ups and downs for everything. As wormhole carrier pilots so kindly pointed out to me, those jump skills aren't useless at all unless you built your Archon in some wormhole that you can't get out of. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1581
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:25:00 -
[481] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best Thanks!
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
194
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:28:00 -
[482] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
If you are still open to critics and reviews, there are still a couple of things that needed to be clarified:
1 - With these changes all T2 ships will need the main requirement skill to be trained at level V, but for JF an exception will be opened? why? CCP doesn't want to give out 7M skill points to people? that door is already open for destroyers and battlecruisers!
Keep things consistent, do it right !
My sugestion:
- Keep all T2 requirements at level V, even if that means giving more free skill points.
2 - While checking out the pre-requisites changes of some of the ships one thing stands out, there was a huge attempt to keep training time the same as before creating hysterical requirements for some ships that is putting everybody bumping heads against a wall, some of the edge cases I found:
2a - carriers / supercarriers - removing the racial battleship V and we have less 40 days to train. But then you had Jump Fuel Conservation IV and Jump Drive Calibration III. I can accept this if it was done also for the dread and titan, but no! Why Capital Ships 4 for regular carriers? Adding the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill at 1 as prerequisite to the Dread but not Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration I to carriers? Adding the Jump Portal Generation skill at 1 as requirement to Titans but not Doomsday Operation I, the most important weapon a titan can use? where is the consistency?
Keep things consistent, do it right !
My sugestion:
- First keep Capital Ships III for regular carriers and only increase it to IV for Supercarriers. - Second add the same requirements to all the capital ships or none at all, IGÇÖm talking about had Jump Fuel Conservation IV and Jump Drive Calibration III - Third keep things consistent between all capitals, if you add some specific requirements to some capitals, finish the job you started: Add Projected electronic counter measures I and Fighter Bombers I to Supercarriers ; Add Doomsday Operation I to Titans; Add Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration I and Fighters I to Carriers !
Keep things consistent, do it right !
2b - Siege Warfare V to fly Damnation; Armored Warfare V to fly the Vulture; Skirmish Warfare V to fly an Eos or Information Warfare V to fly a Claymore, really? Why train something that is not directly related with ship, the links and bonus the ship will give? That doesnGÇÖt make any sense, looking to your proposal only 2 of these skills make sense for each type of command ship: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63522/1/Commandshipchanges2.jpg
Keep things consistent, do it right !
My sugestion:
- If you really have the want to keep training times the same, instead of 4 requirements, keep only the requirements for the 2 skills that makes sense for each command ship (according with your proposal) and increase the training factor of the warfare skills from 2 to 3, instead of 9 days * 4 things will be 17 days * 2 and the times will be closer to what you want, just give the extra skill points to the persons that trained the skill and close this page in a clean way.
Keep things consistent, do it right !
3b - Cloaking 4 added as skill requirement of the Recon Ships skill !! Really, one of the recons donGÇÖt have the bonus to fit cloaking device T2, you know this right? Are you planning in giving both ships this bonus and forget to tell us? Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Flying Apocalypse
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:32:00 -
[483] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best If you are still open to critics and reviews, there are still a couple of things than needed to be clarified:1 - With these changes all T2 ships will need the main requirement skill to be trained at level V, but for JF an exception will be opened? why? CCP doesn't want to give out 7M skill points to people? that door is already open for destroyers and battlecruisers! Keep things consistent, do it right !My sugestion: - Keep all T2 requirements at level V, even if that means giving more free skill points. 2 - While checking out the pre-requisites changes of some of the ships one thing stands out, there was a huge attempt to keep training time the same as before creating hysterical requirements for some ships that is putting everybody bumping heads against a wall, some of the edge cases I found: 2a - carriers / supercarriers - removing the racial battleship V and we have less 40 days to train. But then you had Jump Fuel Conservation IV and Jump Drive Calibration III. I can accept this if it was done also for the dread and titan, but no! Why Capital Ships 4 for regular carriers? Adding the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill at 1 as prerequisite to the Dread but not Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration I to carriers? Adding the Jump Portal Generation skill at 1 as requirement to Titans but not Doomsday Operation I, the most important weapon a titan can use? where is the consistency? Keep things consistent, do it right !My sugestion: - First keep Capital Ships III for regular carriers and only increase it to IV for Supercarriers. - Second add the same requirements to all the capital ships or none at all, IGÇÖm talking about had Jump Fuel Conservation IV and Jump Drive Calibration III - Third keep things consistent between all capitals, if you add some specific requirements to some capitals, finish the job you started: Add Projected electronic counter measures I and Fighter Bombers I to Supercarriers ; Add Doomsday Operation I to Titans; Add Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration I and Fighters I to Carriers ! Keep things consistent, do it right !2b - Siege Warfare V to fly Damnation; Armored Warfare V to fly the Vulture; Skirmish Warfare V to fly an Eos or Information Warfare V to fly a Claymore, really? Why train something that is not directly related with ship, the links and bonus the ship will give? That doesnGÇÖt make any sense, looking to your proposal only 2 of these skills make sense for each type of command ship: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63522/1/Commandshipchanges2.jpgKeep things consistent, do it right !My sugestion: - If you really have the want to keep training times the same, instead of 4 requirements, keep only the requirements for the 2 skills that makes sense for each command ship (according with your proposal) and increase the training factor of the warfare skills from 2 to 3, instead of 9 days * 4 things will be 17 days * 2 and the times will be closer to what you want, just give the extra skill points to the persons that trained the skill and close this page in a clean way. Keep things consistent, do it right !3b - Cloaking 4 added as skill requirement of the Recon Ships skill !! Really, one of the recons donGÇÖt have the bonus to fit cloaking device T2, you know this right? Are you planning in giving both ships this bonus and forget to tell us?
You are a goon so I'll instantly assume you are trolling...But in case you are not...You want a lot of free stuff from ccp don't you? something like "instant gratification"? For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:40:00 -
[484] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Unkind Omen wrote:And for sake of justice never forget that hull skills are only the small part of skills one have to train to operate ship properly. One will have to invest a lot into core/gunnery skills before he will be actually capable of using larger hull sizes properly. Every time they simplify the game a little - there is a lot of difficulties still left... until it's not. A bittervet can remember learning skills, no warp-to-zero, old-school probing, and all that things that I have no idea of.
:trollface:
CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
194
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:48:00 -
[485] - Quote
Flying Apocalypse wrote: You are a goon so I'll instantly assume you are trolling...But in case you are not...You want a lot of free stuff from ccp don't you? something like "instant gratification"?
Space ships is serious stuff for me to be trolling about
In a more serious note, I always love free stuff, but believe me this is not the case.
Instead of following my suggestions, CCP can just give up on this obsession on keeping all previous and new training times the same, go back and remove some of these new skills requirements that doesn't make any sense and
Keep things consistent
That is only thing I'm asking. When these changes are done and the dust settles I would like to look to each ship requirements and say, "OK it makes sense and its consistent will all the same ships in this class"! Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
55
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:51:00 -
[486] - Quote
To be honest. 1. Command ships changes are strange. - Someone stated correctly - if i fly Shield Command ship -WHY THE HELL I NEED ARMOUR SKILLS! :)
2. Recons - Cloaking IV as a prerequisite for a ship that will not a covert op cloak - WHY?
3. Carriers/Dreads - From my perspective if i will have alt in a wormhole - what is the reason for Jump Drive calibration, and Jump Fuel Conservation at this high lvl? I can understand other things - but why skills that only determine how far, and how cheap you can jump? - Dreads - Siege as a prerequisite - strange , i can still undock without a siege module ... and fly this ship - so why do i need it train before sitting in this ship?
4. Electronic Atack ships - Long range targeting? WHY those are frigates, this 5% does not help much - and is not so important for this ship class!
CCP Please reconsider skills: Command ships - prerequisites only for a proper ships, and for example add armour/shield resistances skills there . * If i can boost someone resistances - i have to know how.
Recons. No cloak, please. I have this already trained - but need of a covert op cloak ( or any cloak ) for a ship that have no need of using it...
Capitals. Dreads - other skills - no siege. Carriers - etc...
|
Onyx Nyx
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
202
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 14:53:00 -
[487] - Quote
I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part. I kill kittens, and puppies and bunnies. I maim toddlers and teens and then more. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3738
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:10:00 -
[488] - Quote
It's not ******* wasted. You can still fly battleships, can't you? Stop complaining. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:11:00 -
[489] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote: 3. Carriers/Dreads - From my perspective if i will have alt in a wormhole - what is the reason for Jump Drive calibration, and Jump Fuel Conservation at this high lvl? I can understand other things - but why skills that only determine how far, and how cheap you can jump?
/RP /lore: The ships were initially designed for normal space. It sounds like you're asking for a dread/carrier variant that sacrifices jump capability for an improvement in something else to better fit the needs and foibles of wormholes.
|
Onyx Nyx
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
202
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:12:00 -
[490] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not ******* wasted. You can still fly battleships, can't you? Stop complaining.
Good for you. Now go sit in your corner while the adults are talking. I kill kittens, and puppies and bunnies. I maim toddlers and teens and then more. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3738
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:13:00 -
[491] - Quote
Onyx Nyx wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not ******* wasted. You can still fly battleships, can't you? Stop complaining. Good for you. Now go sit in your corner while the adults are talking. You whine like a child and then call yourself an adult. That's classic. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:13:00 -
[492] - Quote
Onyx Nyx wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not ******* wasted. You can still fly battleships, can't you? Stop complaining. Good for you. Now go sit in your corner while the adults are talking. Careful, the corner is relative.
|
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:14:00 -
[493] - Quote
MisterNick wrote:Looks like you've got your work cut out when it comes to rebalancing the T1 industrials. Example: If you can hop into an Iteron V at skill level 1, people are unlikely to ever bother with the other Iteron versions. The indy ships will no doubt get mining-barge-ified when they're rebalanced, such that all of them are available at level I, and each has a distinct role (huge tank, huge cargo, quick align, etc.). People won't train up the skill to get into a "better" ship anymore, just to get more benefit out of all of them (while being able to select whichever best fits the needs of a particular hauling job at will).
Can't say I see anything wrong with the changes really.
I did not see any mention of remaps in the dev blog. I suggest that the scope of these changes would make it fair to tack on two bonus remaps for every character in game that does not already have at least two in the bank on the day of the Great Skill Change (especially considering you did not give us the option to pick one up this past Christmas).
|
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:15:00 -
[494] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:One change I certainly do not like is merging the Navigation requirements for carrier into the skill requirements.
This will mess up my planned future skill progression (distant future, admittedly) quite a bit, since I had planned to learn the ship command part of the carrier requirements at the end of a PER/WIL mapping period, then remap for support skills (regular remap available by then) and learn the navigation part there.
That's no longer possible which means postponing carriers by a full year or burning another bonus remap, after the AI patch already ate my first :(.
Welcome to EVE... Stopped counting the number of times I had to remap or change training plans because of Dev decisions. When they changed the racial aspects of toons back in 2009 it was fubar. Afterwards they removed learning skills and we got some free remaps to compensate. All those are now wasted because of remaps they made me do by adding skills,removing or changing skills. Not to mention the month I spent researching what would be best race/bloodline for training only to find out that the devs had removed that whole aspect from the game. FUBAR.
We deserve a free remap for all these changes to skills!!!!!!!!!!!
Was hoping we would get one for X-mas but proved to be idle hope. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
196
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:15:00 -
[495] - Quote
Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part.
While I feel your pain ( I'm 5 days for Amarr BS 5) so I can cross-train carrier (I already fly Caldari).
It will be a huge problem for CCP to distinguish the ones that want to keep V because they want to use it to fly a marauder from the ones that have dedicated pilots for capitals. CCP cannot possible guess what each person wants and even if they went for something like, "file a petition to get your skills points back", the GMs will go on strike !
Against my own interests I say this and its a pain to admit it, but there is no way for CCP to give us the points back without creating a mess of procedure and I have to agree with them on this point and just accept it. Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:16:00 -
[496] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. In fact, the solution is easy. Introduce some high-rank skill that reduces clone costs. It'll be by no means mandatory for new players - and veterans would be glad to learn something useful. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3738
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:16:00 -
[497] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:I did not see any mention of remaps in the dev blog. I suggest that the scope of these changes would make it fair to tack on two bonus remaps for every character in game that does not already have at least two in the bank on the day of the Great Skill Change (especially considering you did not give us the option to pick one up this past Christmas).
Why? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Onyx Nyx
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
203
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:28:00 -
[498] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part. While I feel your pain ( I'm 5 days for Amarr BS 5) so I can cross-train carrier (I already fly Caldari). It will be a huge problem for CCP to distinguish the ones that want to keep V because they want to use it to fly a marauder from the ones that have dedicated pilots for capitals. CCP cannot possible guess what each person wants and even if they went for something like, "file a petition to get your skills points back", the GMs will go on strike ! Against my our interests I say this and its a pain to admit it, but there is no way for CCP to give us the points back without creating a mess of procedure and I have to agree with them on this point and just accept it.
I appreciate that you took the time to give me a proper and educated response, even if it wasn't from CCP, and while I agree with you that this is going to taste very sour. I do hope CCP does not implement these changes as they currently stand and glosses this over as quickly as possible, some of the decisions are incredibly wonky (hello command ships) I kill kittens, and puppies and bunnies. I maim toddlers and teens and then more. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:28:00 -
[499] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. Clone insurance maybe? Keep the reasonably high cost, but make it run for a fixed term like 90 or 180 days, and you're covered no matter how many times you get podded during that period. This way you still have an ISK sink for the 200m SP club, but nobody is discouraged from flying around in teeny weeny easy to pop ships.
Just make sure you don't ignore those warning mails you get when it's about to run out --- there would probably need to be a warning in big red letters that pops up and warns you if YOU'RE ABOUT TO UNDOCK WITHOUT CLONE INSURANCE ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS???! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3738
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:30:00 -
[500] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. Clone insurance maybe? Keep the reasonably high cost, but make it run for a fixed term like 90 or 180 days, and you're covered no matter how many times you get podded during that period. This way you still have an ISK sink for the 200m SP club, but nobody is discouraged from flying around in teeny weeny easy to pop ships. Just make sure you don't ignore those warning mails you get when it's about to run out --- there would probably need to be a warning in big red letters that pops up and warns you if YOU'RE ABOUT TO UNDOCK WITHOUT CLONE INSURANCE ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS???! This is a very reasonable idea. This might actually increase the isk sink given the number of people with high SP that don't ever get podded, but will keep their insurance regardless because they don't want to risk getting podded just once and losing skills. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
|
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
67
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:37:00 -
[501] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:To be honest. 1. Command ships changes are strange. - Someone stated correctly - if i fly Shield Command ship -WHY THE HELL I NEED ARMOUR SKILLS! :)
Because they needed to add something that compensated training time-wise for no longer requiring Racial Cruiser 5 and either/both Logi 4/HAC 4 to be trained, and those leadership skills were the closest thing that made sense. Given that the Command Ships are proposed to be changed into ships that will largely be used on fleets, someone who is giving boosts should have those skills trained anyway, IMO.
Quote: 2. Recons - Cloaking IV as a prerequisite for a ship that will not a covert op cloak - WHY?
Agreed.
Quote: 3. Carriers/Dreads - From my perspective if i will have alt in a wormhole - what is the reason for Jump Drive calibration, and Jump Fuel Conservation at this high lvl? I can understand other things - but why skills that only determine how far, and how cheap you can jump? - Dreads - Siege as a prerequisite - strange , i can still undock without a siege module ... and fly this ship - so why do i need it train before sitting in this ship?
Carriers are primarily logistics ships, in both sense of the words (repping stuff and carrying stuff - fitted ships specifically). Both of these activities are benefitted by being able to move long distances on minimal fuel (okay, that is a stretch for the repping part, but if it were too much of a bother to rep a tower/structure/whatever, things that people care about will die a lot more readily).
You can undock and fly an interdictor without the warp disruption probe launcher too, but there isn't a lot of reason to. Same with Dreads - you don't typically use a dread without the siege module.
Quote: 4. Electronic Atack ships - Long range targeting? WHY those are frigates, this 5% does not help much - and is not so important for this ship class!
Because they were looking to replace it with a skill that maintained the train time. The only other x2 skills in Electronics (as these are Electronic Attack Frigates) are Long Range Targeting and Electronic Warfare. If you think LRT is useless for these ships, EWAR is even more so, and to be honest, so is Electronics Upgrades - likely why it is being replaced. I know the new sensor compensation skills are also x2, but this is the race-independent t2 skill. Unless you want it to be like the change ot the Command Ships.... Didn't think so. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1934
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:38:00 -
[502] - Quote
By training carriers and dreads before summer expansion I save 1 month of useless jump drive skills, so I thank you for announcing this change now :)
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
79
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:43:00 -
[503] - Quote
That was a lot to get through! - Thanks for the update - it has made me think about where my characters are going this year!
It all sounds pretty good - And I don'tthink letting new characters into Battleships really quickly is a big issue here - as it will help and encourage people to make up Alts, (i.e. quickly), for those special activities days. - although not sure what guns I could put on it. . . . but there must be a use |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
281
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:44:00 -
[504] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. Clone insurance maybe? Keep the reasonably high cost, but make it run for a fixed term like 90 or 180 days, and you're covered no matter how many times you get podded during that period. This way you still have an ISK sink for the 200m SP club, but nobody is discouraged from flying around in teeny weeny easy to pop ships. Just make sure you don't ignore those warning mails you get when it's about to run out --- there would probably need to be a warning in big red letters that pops up and warns you if YOU'RE ABOUT TO UNDOCK WITHOUT CLONE INSURANCE ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS???! Sounds good to me. Remove insurance. |
Myopic Thyne
Shattered Paradigm
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:44:00 -
[505] - Quote
Adding my voice to:
Command Ship requirements make no sense. (Links for 'off-race' and generally neveruse situations.)
Carrier requirements make no sense. (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and Fighters make more sense then Jump requirements)
Recons requirements make no sense. (Cloaking skill for non-cloaky ships is absurd. How about making carriers require freighter skills.. oh wait THAT would make more sense since they do haul stuff around a lot.) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3742
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:46:00 -
[506] - Quote
Wait, are people complaining about long range targeting on a class of ship that all have range bonuses for their ECM modules?
...lol Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:51:00 -
[507] - Quote
Myopic Thyne wrote:Adding my voice to:
Command Ship requirements make no sense. (Links for 'off-race' and generally neveruse situations.)
Carrier requirements make no sense. (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and Fighters make more sense then Jump requirements)
Recons requirements make no sense. (Cloaking skill for non-cloaky ships is absurd. How about making carriers require freighter skills.. oh wait THAT would make more sense since they do haul stuff around a lot.) As has been mentioned, you aren't training the gang link skills to be able to use a command ship, you are training the passive boost skills.
Now the question is, why do I have to train the passive shield boosts for my armor booster? Simple, they needed to replace the logistics/other skills with something, so they went with the passive boosts. It makes sense to me. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3742
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:53:00 -
[508] - Quote
I don't get what the problem is with the cloaking skill requirement. No, combat recons can't use covert ops cloak - I realize that. However the majority of fits that I've seen of combat recons use the improved cloak. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Sakari Orisi
Shattered Paradigm
187
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 15:55:00 -
[509] - Quote
Myopic Thyne wrote:Adding my voice to:
Command Ship requirements make no sense. (Links for 'off-race' and generally neveruse situations.)
Carrier requirements make no sense. (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and Fighters make more sense then Jump requirements)
Recons requirements make no sense. (Cloaking skill for non-cloaky ships is absurd. How about making carriers require freighter skills.. oh wait THAT would make more sense since they do haul stuff around a lot.)
I think this is spot on. I don't think the passive boost skills should be needed to fly all command ships.
Ditto for Carriers and Cloaking on recons. I appreciate training time should be kept roughly the same as now, but a better set of skills should be searched for.
Perhaps ...
Command Ships: Wing command ? Recons: No idea there Carriers: As above poster mentioned: Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and/or fighters. Dreads: the dread requiremetns should mirror the carrier ones. Keep them in line imo. The evefit project Pyfa thread Phobos thread |
Drosal Inkunen
Harmonic Discord Lightning Knights
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:01:00 -
[510] - Quote
Sakari Orisi wrote:Myopic Thyne wrote:Adding my voice to:
Command Ship requirements make no sense. (Links for 'off-race' and generally neveruse situations.)
Carrier requirements make no sense. (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and Fighters make more sense then Jump requirements)
Recons requirements make no sense. (Cloaking skill for non-cloaky ships is absurd. How about making carriers require freighter skills.. oh wait THAT would make more sense since they do haul stuff around a lot.) I think this is spot on. I don't think the passive boost skills should be needed to fly all command ships. Ditto for Carriers and Cloaking on recons. I appreciate training time should be kept roughly the same as now, but a better set of skills should be searched for. Perhaps ... Command Ships: Wing command ? Recons: No idea there Carriers: As above poster mentioned: Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and/or fighters. Dreads: the dread requiremetns should mirror the carrier ones. Keep them in line imo.
Hey, someone notices it is the passive boosts, not the gang link skills!
Anyway, the passive boosts were probably chosen because they would be the skills needed to train for gang links. I am not sure of training times for wing command, but I personally would rather have the boosters all have the passive boosts than not have them. Sure 10% shields won't help too much on an armor ship, but I'd rather have the 10% shields than nothing.
I will pass on commenting on the carrier changes as that isn't an area I'm familiar with.
I think cloaking for recons is a tricky one. I believe they mentioned the reasoning is that half the recons really shouldn't be used without a cov-ops cloak and they couldn't really find a skill that worked better. Force Recons almost seem like they should be a different ship type entirely, don't you think?
|
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Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:02:00 -
[511] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:*
* Carriers
It always struck me as odd that the only training difference between a carrier and a super-carrier was Racial Carrier III vs I. With the new changes, there seems to be no skill requirement difference between a carrier and a super-carrier.
And while the jump drive requirements might be perfectly sensible in low- and null-sec, they aren't relevant for WH carriers. There are carriers that spend their entire life in WH space, and never use their jump drive. Others use their jump drive to get to WH space, and thereafter do not. As such, the high jump drive skill reqs seem somewhat arbitrary, especially when compared to the proposed dreadnaught pre-reqs.
(Similar question arises with dreads: is a dread without siege a sensible dread? If it is, then the pre-req is somewhat arbitrary. Less of a problem in this case, since siege mode is useful for any dread, while it's entirely possible for a carrier to fully function as a carrier without using the jump drive)
I feel you m8. Unfortunately, this is what happens when the large majority of newly hired middleman developers are hired from big null alliances. They have little notion or some simply don't care about how certain decisions affect players from different areas in the game. For them EVE-meta = Nullsec. It's worth noting as well that questions coming from certain groups within the player community get answered faster and more frequently. In the end I think null-players in generals tend to be more hardcore players so it's logical for them to get and deserve more attention/opportunities and that we will all benefit from the changes initiated by them long term.
Fly safe o/ Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
Myopic Thyne
Shattered Paradigm
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:04:00 -
[512] - Quote
I miss spoke, I was thinking about links on command ships and wrote links, I did indeed mean the passive skills, I actually like the idea of needing wing command for command ships, that's pretty good. |
Sakari Orisi
Shattered Paradigm
187
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:06:00 -
[513] - Quote
Drosal Inkunen wrote:Sakari Orisi wrote:Myopic Thyne wrote:Adding my voice to:
Command Ship requirements make no sense. (Links for 'off-race' and generally neveruse situations.)
Carrier requirements make no sense. (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and Fighters make more sense then Jump requirements)
Recons requirements make no sense. (Cloaking skill for non-cloaky ships is absurd. How about making carriers require freighter skills.. oh wait THAT would make more sense since they do haul stuff around a lot.) I think this is spot on. I don't think the passive boost skills should be needed to fly all command ships. Ditto for Carriers and Cloaking on recons. I appreciate training time should be kept roughly the same as now, but a better set of skills should be searched for. Perhaps ... Command Ships: Wing command ? Recons: No idea there Carriers: As above poster mentioned: Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and/or fighters. Dreads: the dread requiremetns should mirror the carrier ones. Keep them in line imo. Hey, someone notices it is the passive boosts, not the gang link skills! Anyway, the passive boosts were probably chosen because they would be the skills needed to train for gang links. I am not sure of training times for wing command, but I personally would rather have the boosters all have the passive boosts than not have them. Sure 10% shields won't help too much on an armor ship, but I'd rather have the 10% shields than nothing. I will pass on commenting on the carrier changes as that isn't an area I'm familiar with. I think cloaking for recons is a tricky one. I believe they mentioned the reasoning is that half the recons really shouldn't be used without a cov-ops cloak and they couldn't really find a skill that worked better. Force Recons almost seem like they should be a different ship type entirely, don't you think? An entirely different skill actually sounds like a better idea here .. Might be worth pondering about ? I mean .. it's now or never pretty much. The evefit project Pyfa thread Phobos thread |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:27:00 -
[514] - Quote
Eagleye13 wrote:I Am NOT A FAN of this Re-Mapping... For me It Seems CCP is Making it EASIER for NEW players and HARDER for older players... for me being an older player it is un-fair and ultimatly could drive me away from the game...Take for example the Requirements for the Command Ship... Why do i need all these extra WARFARE skills when i only need maybe 2 out of 3... It should be left to the pilot to customize his skill sheet with those so their is diversity when fighting others...This to me seems like you are balancing everything to the point where only Lock.Click. And Shoot Comes into effect...meaning everyone is equal and has the same effect against each other...Leave that to US thats what MADE Eve FUN...Knowing that we had the advantage because we spent the time to get their....by doing these changes it makes it easier for newer players to come up from nothing and take on us older players.......Remember who dominated the game of eve....The players, mainly OLDER Players(Game Time). In my view here CCP is duming eve down so that it so call balances the ships when in reality they are making it easier for the NEWER players to inflict more damage and accumulate isk at a faster rate that what we had the chance to do when we first started.....If this is the Case maybe everyone who has been playing for over 5 years should be given an ISK Gift from CCP so that we can have a fair inflated advantage!!!!!
You did get and still have an umlimited isk credit card for CCP. T2 bpo's anyone? Some great unique/limited ships that are priceless now and only you rotting oaks have? How about the whole of nullsec that you could settle for free cause no-one else was there at the time, basically providing unlimited wealth for the people owning sov.
Oldskool players have always had and still have an unfair advantage over anyone that joined the last 5 years. Please give younger players a chance and a reason to exist or you will find yourself alone one day.
Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3916
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:31:00 -
[515] - Quote
Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part.
If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints.
We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1940
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:38:00 -
[516] - Quote
Does "Summer" refer to like May-ish or more like July-ish?
/fishing for a general approximation of release schedule, things got suddenly quite tight because of the cap change :o
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
303
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:42:00 -
[517] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time. Clone insurance maybe? Keep the reasonably high cost, but make it run for a fixed term like 90 or 180 days, and you're covered no matter how many times you get podded during that period. This way you still have an ISK sink for the 200m SP club, but nobody is discouraged from flying around in teeny weeny easy to pop ships. Just make sure you don't ignore those warning mails you get when it's about to run out --- there would probably need to be a warning in big red letters that pops up and warns you if YOU'RE ABOUT TO UNDOCK WITHOUT CLONE INSURANCE ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS???!
This is brilliant. CCP, get to it. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
|
Onyx Nyx
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
203
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:43:00 -
[518] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part. If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints. We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change.
Not really what I asked, but I suppose that is the best answer I'll get. I kill kittens, and puppies and bunnies. I maim toddlers and teens and then more. |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:43:00 -
[519] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part. If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints. We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change. Well, nothing except for the rage tears. However, the butt-hurt should be considered as just compensation.
|
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:44:00 -
[520] - Quote
Unkind Omen wrote:The only nasty and really confusing thing in this skill split idea is the fact that racial battlecruiser and destroyer skills would get same ranks as their common counterparts have now. Do you think that command ships alone are that good so people would surely spend 1.5 mil SP for each one of them? I think that they are not that awesome. Most people train commands as a good bonus for having at least two of racial cruisers 5. And even now it would cost only an additional 1.2mil SP to cross-train commands through cruiser skills even if you would ignore the fact that the cruiser 5 skill is a must have skill for any experienced pvp pilot anyway as it provides access to SC, Logistics, Recons, HICs and HACs as weapons of destruction.
I think that you should consider lowering a rank of racial battlecruisers skill at least to rank 5( which cruisers have) or may be even lowering both cruisers and BC skills to rank 4. Personally I already have BC and destroyers V but I still cant forget that damn month I spent training BC V. How do you imagine new players to spend 4 months to get the same result?
Nobody ever said you were obligated to train all races. It is a personal choice. Instead of having to train all cruisers to V to fly command ships you will now train all bcs instead. Not having to train racial cruiser V and battlecruisers V for CS makes perfect sense to me. For me there is the added benefit that I preferred BCS over cruisers anyway :). Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3752
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:45:00 -
[521] - Quote
Onyx Nyx wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part. If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints. We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change. Not really what I asked, but I suppose that is the best answer I'll get. That actually is exactly what you asked. You just didn't get the answer you wanted. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
68
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:50:00 -
[522] - Quote
Roime wrote:Does "Summer" refer to like May-ish or more like July-ish?
/fishing for a general approximation of release schedule, things got suddenly quite tight because of the cap change :o
Revelations II June 19, 2007 Empyrean Age June 10, 2008
Apocrypha was released earlier than Summer intentionally
Tyrannis May 28, 2010 Incarna June 21, 2011 Inferno May 22, 2012
Give you an idea?
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1941
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 16:53:00 -
[523] - Quote
Thanks, it does :)
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
175
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:19:00 -
[524] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Any thoughts on how likely it will be that implementing this kind of change with introduce some big bugs? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3756
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:22:00 -
[525] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best Any thoughts on how likely it will be that implementing this kind of change with introduce some big bugs? That's like asking somebody to give you the likelihood that your computer is going to crash sometime in the next week. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:22:00 -
[526] - Quote
Bubbleboylol wrote:I know most of you have been here longer then me, but do these changes not worry you at all? I have played almost every MMO out there and this is the only one that me and my friends have stuck with through the years. Eve is slowly shifting to accommodate a different player base then there core players. I say that because if you look at the shift in popular games as World of Warcraft or age of conan both i have played for a long time, they made it so easy to do anything that it's not worth the wait or time to even play anymore. They have pushed out there core players be cause it got overrun by the ( i want it now players ) and are now trying to make and keep them happy, that play get everything they want and then get bored and move on. i see this happening to EVE slowly and it is sad because working and building anticipation to own and or use a ship and know that anyone else has to put in same time or more time and effort to get the same or better. The whole reason the market is as successful as it is in EVE is due to the fact that it takes months to skill train a ship. Don't forget why there is all these ( stupid repeditive tedious ) little things you have to do is what keeps you ahead of other players and sets each player apart from each other and creates competition between others as most people get lazy, so if the game caters to that then people will get bored because the game will then be to easy and they will ask for ( more ) (new) etc and so on and never be happy. The point is no one will ever be happy so you have to decide when it is just pure laziness or if it really is a problem. ( most the time though it is just laziness ) I am not saying all the changes are bad but some are just way to easy... Mix it up add new skills etc do not take them away from any ship if anything add more. The realism of space and the depth of the skills that go into EVE is what is so intriguing to anyone that starts or is still playing EVE, Do you see pilots flying in real life 747 jets without first learning everything about most every plane including prop planes and small jets before they can even touch a 747? That is my point. I understand it is a game but how many space games offer the realism that EVE offers>?? We like the game hard to play as that is what keeps you and I coming back. If i want an easy game ill go download an app on the ipod or play COD etc. We have many options to play easy games. The people whining about how long it takes is just the type that ( want it now ) and have no patience. I know i would not keep playing if i could just get everything as easy as in WOW or other games the like. As that is why i do not play them anymore and why they have to keep screwing up other games so much because they did not know that they pushed there main player base out.
Good day fellow pilots! Be heard don't let them cater to the LAziessss!
+10 on that. As an oldskool gamer I've lost 90% of the titles I used to love this way. Eve is the last one I still play and would be hurt if they would kill it. Last passion I lost this way was Diablo 3 this year. D2 was a fantastic game which took a lot of time to learn and an enormous grind to find what you want. Blizzard just killed it. When I played 3, I had been pumped up and waiting for 6 years. It felt like playing supermario back on the nintendo 8 bit. One directional and simple as ****. I was going to play it together with my 14 year old. He plays COD a lot and I had been telling him how much it sucked for being so simple. After diablo 3 came out I felt so embarrassed about it's quality and simplicity that I didn't even bother introducing him to it.
btw. Next title to be ruined is the maxis classic SimCity. Even before release I can see from the gameplay videos that SimCity5 is an oversimplified disaster. It doesn't even include taxsystem and spreadsheets/graphs anymore :(.
Please CCP , you have a great community , tolerant , educated , adults averaging 30 , do not ruin this game , do not turn it into a 10 year olds play thing.
Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
69
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:23:00 -
[527] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best Any thoughts on how likely it will be that implementing this kind of change with introduce some big bugs?
That is why SiSi exists. I hope they make this change there well before it sees the light of day on TQ. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
175
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:31:00 -
[528] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:Bubbleboylol wrote:I know most of you have been here longer then me, but do these changes not worry you at all? I have played almost every MMO out there and this is the only one that me and my friends have stuck with through the years. Eve is slowly shifting to accommodate a different player base then there core players. I say that because if you look at the shift in popular games as World of Warcraft or age of conan both i have played for a long time, they made it so easy to do anything that it's not worth the wait or time to even play anymore. They have pushed out there core players be cause it got overrun by the ( i want it now players ) and are now trying to make and keep them happy, that play get everything they want and then get bored and move on. i see this happening to EVE slowly and it is sad because working and building anticipation to own and or use a ship and know that anyone else has to put in same time or more time and effort to get the same or better. The whole reason the market is as successful as it is in EVE is due to the fact that it takes months to skill train a ship. Don't forget why there is all these ( stupid repeditive tedious ) little things you have to do is what keeps you ahead of other players and sets each player apart from each other and creates competition between others as most people get lazy, so if the game caters to that then people will get bored because the game will then be to easy and they will ask for ( more ) (new) etc and so on and never be happy. The point is no one will ever be happy so you have to decide when it is just pure laziness or if it really is a problem. ( most the time though it is just laziness ) I am not saying all the changes are bad but some are just way to easy... Mix it up add new skills etc do not take them away from any ship if anything add more. The realism of space and the depth of the skills that go into EVE is what is so intriguing to anyone that starts or is still playing EVE, Do you see pilots flying in real life 747 jets without first learning everything about most every plane including prop planes and small jets before they can even touch a 747? That is my point. I understand it is a game but how many space games offer the realism that EVE offers>?? We like the game hard to play as that is what keeps you and I coming back. If i want an easy game ill go download an app on the ipod or play COD etc. We have many options to play easy games. The people whining about how long it takes is just the type that ( want it now ) and have no patience. I know i would not keep playing if i could just get everything as easy as in WOW or other games the like. As that is why i do not play them anymore and why they have to keep screwing up other games so much because they did not know that they pushed there main player base out.
Good day fellow pilots! Be heard don't let them cater to the LAziessss! +10 on that. As an oldskool gamer I've lost 90% of the titles I used to love this way. Eve is the last one I still play and would be hurt if they would kill it. Last passion I lost this way was Diablo 3 this year. D2 was a fantastic game which took a lot of time to learn and an enormous grind to find what you want. Blizzard just killed it. When I played 3, I had been pumped up and waiting for 6 years. It felt like playing supermario back on the nintendo 8 bit. One directional and simple as ****. I was going to play it together with my 14 year old. He plays COD a lot and I had been telling him how much it sucked for being so simple. After diablo 3 came out I felt so embarrassed about it's quality and simplicity that I didn't even bother introducing him to it. btw. Next title to be ruined is the maxis classic SimCity. Even before release I can see from the gameplay videos that SimCity5 is an oversimplified disaster. It doesn't even include taxsystem and spreadsheets/graphs anymore :(. Please CCP , you have a great community , tolerant , educated , adults averaging 30 , do not ruin this game , do not turn it into a 10 year olds play thing.
I don't see why letting players rush into more expensive ships sooner seems so horrible to you bittervets, it gives you tastier and squishier targets to blow up and more people to sell expensive toys to. Sounds like whining about a nonissue to me. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3076
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:36:00 -
[529] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.
Please for the love of god just remove clone upgrade costs. I wrote an article about how bad they are. Ignore the insurance change part as I was just using it as an example of where to move the ISK sink to (bad example I know), but just focus on the rest.
CLONE UPGRADE BILLS: A PAINFUL THROWBACK
Did you read it?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
knobber Jobbler
218
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:37:00 -
[530] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part. If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints. We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change. Not really what I asked, but I suppose that is the best answer I'll get. That actually is exactly what you asked. You just didn't get the answer you wanted.
I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.
|
|
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1024
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 17:40:00 -
[531] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. That's excellent to hear. One thing I have a question about is the "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" mantra. What if I can't fly it now, but have the skill?
Based on current requirements, if I train up Command Ships right now my skills will allow me to fly two races' worth of Field Command Ships (2 of the 8 available). After the expansion I'll be able to fly all Command Ships from all races (8 of 8) because the requirements change dramatically. Is that correct? If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |
stoicfaux
2314
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:11:00 -
[532] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote: I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.
Geez Louise. You aren't losing anything with the prereq changes.
Asking for reimbursement for BS V makes as much sense as graduating from a university, working in your field for a decade and then asking for a tuition refund for a few credit hours when your university changes the prereqs to one of the courses you took.
edit: removed quote spam |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:12:00 -
[533] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Based on current requirements, if I train up Command Ships right now my skills will allow me to fly two races' worth of Field Command Ships (2 of the 8 available). After the expansion I'll be able to fly all Command Ships from all races (8 of 8) because the requirements change dramatically. Is that correct? You would have to post what skills you have now in order to find out if this is correct or not, but . . . maybe. If you have the Command Ships skill injected, and you have Battlecruiser V, AND you have all Cruiser skills to III, then after the change you would have all racial BC skills at V, and you would still have the Command Ships skill injected (so you can continue to train it to whatever level you want, regardless of whether you meet the new pre-reqs required to inject it or not). In that case you could sit in any of the Command Ship hulls regardless of race, because you would have the required skills of Racial BC V + Command Ships I for each of them. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
176
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:22:00 -
[534] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote: I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.
Geez Louise. You aren't losing anything with the prereq changes. Asking for reimbursement for BS V makes as much sense as graduating from a university, working in your field for a decade and then asking for a tuition refund for a few credit hours when your university changes the prereqs to one of the courses you took. edit: removed quote spam This is one of the best responses I've ever seen to one of the more annoying flavors of whining I've seen in this game.
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Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
176
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:24:00 -
[535] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. That's excellent to hear. One thing I have a question about is the "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" mantra. What if I can't fly it now, but have the skill? Based on current requirements, if I train up Command Ships right now my skills will allow me to fly two races' worth of Field Command Ships (2 of the 8 available). After the expansion I'll be able to fly all Command Ships from all races (8 of 8) because the requirements change dramatically. Is that correct?
You need the racial BC skills to V as well, and I''m pretty sure you've got that lined up by now, right? CCP won't remove skills you've injected, so you should be ready to sit in the 8 Command Ships once the change goes live. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1024
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:26:00 -
[536] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:You would have to post what skills you have now in order to find out if this is correct or not, but . . . maybe. I understand your mistrust in my ability to read prerequisites; this is EVE, after all.
If I trained Command Ships now (I'd need to bring Leadership to V and Warfare Links to IV), I could then sit in an Absolution (Amarr Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V) or an Astarte (Gallente Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V). Since I do not have the Logistics skill, I could not fly the other two Amarr and Gallente Command Ships.
After the expansion, the requirements on Commands Ships drop to {racial} Battlecruiser V and Command Ships I. This means that I can sit in every Command Ship, since Minmatar Cruiser IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and a lack of Logistics skills are no longer holding me back. Furthermore, since I would have injected and trained Command Ships before the change, I would not have to train the various {type} Warfare skills.
Sounds like quite a deal to me.
Inkarr Hashur wrote:CCP won't remove skills you've injected, so you should be ready to sit in the 8 Command Ships once the change goes live. That's exactly what I suspect, it just sounds a little too good to be true. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
176
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:33:00 -
[537] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Freighdee Katt wrote:You would have to post what skills you have now in order to find out if this is correct or not, but . . . maybe. I understand your mistrust in my ability to read prerequisites; this is EVE, after all. If I trained Command Ships now (I'd need to bring Leadership to V and Warfare Links to IV), I could then sit in an Absolution (Amarr Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V) or an Astarte (Gallente Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V). Since I do not have the Logistics skill, I could not fly the other two Amarr and Gallente Command Ships. After the expansion, the requirements on Commands Ships drop to {racial} Battlecruiser V and Command Ships I. This means that I can sit in every Command Ship, since Minmatar Cruiser IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and a lack of Logistics skills are no longer holding me back. Furthermore, since I would have injected and trained Command Ships before the change, I would not have to train the various {type} Warfare skills. Sounds like quite a deal to me. Inkarr Hashur wrote:CCP won't remove skills you've injected, so you should be ready to sit in the 8 Command Ships once the change goes live. That's exactly what I suspect, it just sounds a little too good to be true.
You also missed how they're adding 4 prereqs for the command ships skill, which you get to skip. That's the nice thing about being a low or mid-SP pilot right now, you get to pick and choose which prereqs you want to use to get into all these skills that are being changed this summer. Command Ships isn't unique in this respect, the entire expansion may seem to good to be true, but its all true. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
96
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:35:00 -
[538] - Quote
/tinfoil on CCP is helping Test and Goons to bring even more meat-shield to dogpile everything - now in battleships. |
Darkdood
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:35:00 -
[539] - Quote
Command ships concern me a little with the way you implemented them. I have a suggestion for a better way to do it???
Primary Skill Amarr BC V
Secondary Skill Command Ships I -- Warfare Link Spec IV -- 4 x Basic Warfare skills to lvl IV
Tertiary Skill Armored Warfare Spec IV (obviously different depending on race)
Hmm. I didn't do the exact math but I'm sure that shortens the training time too much which I assume is unacceptable to CCP.
Not sure what to say, but forcing everyone to train the four basic warfare skills to V seems a little excessive. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
177
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:38:00 -
[540] - Quote
Darkdood wrote:Command ships concern me a little with the way you implemented them. I have a suggestion for a better way to do it???
Primary Skill Amarr BC V
Secondary Skill Command Ships I -- Warfare Link Spec IV -- 4 x Basic Warfare skills to lvl IV
Tertiary Skill Armored Warfare Spec IV (obviously different depending on race)
Hmm. I didn't do the exact math but I'm sure that shortens the training time too much which I assume is unacceptable to CCP.
Not sure what to say, but forcing everyone to train the four basic warfare skills to V seems a little excessive.
Your suggestion honestly makes more logical sense while also preventing people like me from grabbing up 8 T2 ships at the same time through a little short-cut. So honestly, its really what CCP should be doing rather than the current suggested implementation. |
|
Isaac Morrie
Gravimetrics Industries Redrum Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:40:00 -
[541] - Quote
From the devblog
The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.
If I am reading the devblog right if I currently have Battlecruisers 5 I only have to train Amarr Cruiser 3 in order to be given Amarr Battlecruiser 5 If so this doesn't make any sense because with Amarr Cruiser 3 I still wouldn't be able to fly the Amarr Command Ships, but I could afterwords.
Can I get a dev comment on this I need to plan my training for the next few months? |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1024
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:41:00 -
[542] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:You also missed how they're adding 4 prereqs for the command ships skill, which you get to skip. I actually didn't, but no worries. The question came up because I was drafting an email to corpmates about what to train before the expansion. Command Ships will be one of them. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
62
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 19:15:00 -
[543] - Quote
Isaac Morrie wrote:From the devblog
The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.
If I am reading the devblog right if I currently have Battlecruisers 5 I only have to train Amarr Cruiser 3 in order to be given Amarr Battlecruiser 5 If so this doesn't make any sense because with Amarr Cruiser 3 I still wouldn't be able to fly the Amarr Command Ships, but I could afterwords.
Can I get a dev comment on this I need to plan my training for the next few months?
Here is the skill plan to maximize your SP from the changes
Amarr Frig III Caldari Frig III Gallente Frig III Minmatar Frig III
Destroyers V
Amarr Cruiser III Caldari Cruiser III Gallente Cruiser III Minmatar Cruiser III
Battlecruisers V
If you have racial industrial V you probably want to train racial freighter 1 to avoid training advanced spaceship command V after the changes, and if you are similarly close to Command Ships I you will want to inject that too if you don't have our basic gang bonus skills to V.
After the patch, this will give you:
All frigates III All destroyers V All cruisers III All Battlecruisers to V
After you train command ships I, you will be able to fly every command ship from all 4 races, regardless of your cruiser skill. |
Unkind Omen
Stone circle W-Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 19:43:00 -
[544] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:Unkind Omen wrote:The only nasty and really confusing thing in this skill split idea is the fact that racial battlecruiser and destroyer skills would get same ranks as their common counterparts have now. Do you think that command ships alone are that good so people would surely spend 1.5 mil SP for each one of them? I think that they are not that awesome. Most people train commands as a good bonus for having at least two of racial cruisers 5. And even now it would cost only an additional 1.2mil SP to cross-train commands through cruiser skills even if you would ignore the fact that the cruiser 5 skill is a must have skill for any experienced pvp pilot anyway as it provides access to SC, Logistics, Recons, HICs and HACs as weapons of destruction.
I think that you should consider lowering a rank of racial battlecruisers skill at least to rank 5( which cruisers have) or may be even lowering both cruisers and BC skills to rank 4. Personally I already have BC and destroyers V but I still cant forget that damn month I spent training BC V. How do you imagine new players to spend 4 months to get the same result? Nobody ever said you were obligated to train all races. It is a personal choice. Instead of having to train all cruisers to V to fly command ships you will now train all bcs instead. Not having to train racial cruiser V and battlecruisers V for CS makes perfect sense to me. For me there is the added benefit that I preferred BCS over cruisers anyway :).
Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
33
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 19:53:00 -
[545] - Quote
Unkind Omen wrote:
Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?
Doesn't look fair, because it isn't. In my experience Eve has always catered towards the existing playerbase, the older the better.
In every patch there is an opportunity for completely unjustified profit which can only be grabbed by those in a position to do so. (Luckily this time I will probably be one of them ;)) |
Unkind Omen
Stone circle W-Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 19:56:00 -
[546] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Unkind Omen wrote:
Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?
Doesn't look fair, because it isn't. In my experience Eve has always catered towards the existing playerbase, the older the better. In every patch there is an opportunity for completely unjustified profit which can only be grabbed by those in a position to do so. (Luckily this time I will probably be one of them ;))
It would be just a great opportunity if only it would not affect the accessability of a large class of ships, which is also going to be nerfed down by cutting OGB. This change is going to brake command ships even more.
Upd: And yes, you do have to train multiple command ships to be able to fly in both armor and shield fleets. |
DJWiggles
Eve Radio Corporation
40
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 19:57:00 -
[547] - Quote
Isaac Morrie wrote:From the devblog
The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.
If I am reading the devblog right if I currently have Battlecruisers 5 I only have to train Amarr Cruiser 3 in order to be given Amarr Battlecruiser 5 If so this doesn't make any sense because with Amarr Cruiser 3 I still wouldn't be able to fly the Amarr Command Ships, but I could afterwords.
Can I get a dev comment on this I need to plan my training for the next few months?
as everyone has been saying, if you can fly it NOW, you WILL be able to fly it after the change Live on Eve Radio Wednesdays 20:00 GMT with me & friends blabbering on about Eve and stuff-áFollow me on twitter http://twitter.com/WigglesGRN, like me on facebook http://facebook.com/wigglesGRN or check out my blog http://wiggles.gamingradio.net/blog
|
Sven Viko VIkolander
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 20:43:00 -
[548] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.
Speaking as a newish player (when do I get to stop saying that?) clone costs and penalties need reworking asap. They make vet players risk averse (we need them to lose ships, not more reasons to horde them) and they are a serious harm to new players. Why? Because it is almost inevitable that a new player will forget to upgrade the clone, get podded, and lose some of the few SP they already have. I know I did at least once. I'm sure you can find a better ISK sink...(technically, any reason to PVP more is de facto an isk sink anyhow) |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
90
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:01:00 -
[549] - Quote
I have to add in my sentiment here in that requiring jump optimization skills for Carriers does not make any sense whatsoever, especially when viewed for those players who live in wormholes. I know my Carrier will never be able to jump from wormhole to wormhole, so it makes so little sense to require this.
Fighters and Tactical Logistics Configuration make WAY more sense. Hell, make it Fighters V or something if you want a time sink. Then, you can add the jump optimization skills as tertiary requirements on Supers, since we all know they can't even get into wormholes (so that fixes that), and they're about force projection in nullsec (so jump-related skills fit nicely here, too).
edit: clarity |
DancesWithVeldspar
Raven's Toy Production
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:06:00 -
[550] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Thanks. It is much appreciated. After training the unneeded Mining Barges 5, I wasn't looking forward to training the unneeded Ore Industrial 3. |
|
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
323
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:29:00 -
[551] - Quote
Unkind Omen wrote:[Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?
The "fair" that they get is that it'll be that much easier for them to hop into a logistics or command ship or recon if they want. They'll have to train different skills to get to where we are, and they'll never catch up, but that's completely independent from what skills are trained. It's the side effect of not starting to play in 2003-2012.
And who cares what the prerequisites are for the T2 ships? Why do I care that Cloaking IV is required for Recons? I trained Recons a year ago (and you can too if you don't want to bother with Cloaking IV). DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
Unkind Omen
Stone circle W-Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:35:00 -
[552] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote: The "fair" that they get is that it'll be that much easier for them to hop into a logistics or command ship or recon if they want.
This statement is eventually a false one as the training que is modified for command ships in the way that even training for one of them will take same time as it is now. |
Candente
Navy Veteran Club
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:38:00 -
[553] - Quote
Thanks for the very detailed information. Time to get myself an orca... assuming its price doesn't jump up a lot by the time this happens. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:41:00 -
[554] - Quote
what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links... when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need e.g. vulture will be bonused towards
siege warfare link information warfare links |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
424
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:42:00 -
[555] - Quote
Destoya wrote:Here is the skill plan to maximize your SP from the changes
Amarr Frig III Caldari Frig III Gallente Frig III Minmatar Frig III
Destroyers V
Amarr Cruiser III Caldari Cruiser III Gallente Cruiser III Minmatar Cruiser III
Battlecruisers V
The frig skills have to be trained to IV in order to train the Cruiser skills. Otherwise, yes. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3921
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:10:00 -
[556] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links... when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need
e.g. vulture will be bonused towards
siege warfare link information warfare links
The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist".
The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:13:00 -
[557] - Quote
Unkind Omen wrote:
1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?
2) There is also too much of profit from training racial cruisers V in comparsion to the profit from racial BC would be. I tell you that most EVE players wont spend 1 month of training to get acess to 2 ships, that would be just a bit better than T3 as bonus ships, would most likely have same firepower and combat potential as T3 ships while having same cost efficiency.
With regards to 1. No you don't. You get your 3 Racial BC skills, but you get 0 free SP. Your current BC skill just gets converted into the 3 racials. Because you have at least one of the racials, you get no refund. The refund only occurs if you have ZERO racials.
And for the other guy who just posted, once again, CS will not need any link skills to fly. it needs the passive boost skills, which anyone in a boosting position should have anyway. Wing Command is not a good alternative as most boosters have no intent to ever command fleets, and the command slot is not actually required to be the booster. |
Unkind Omen
Stone circle W-Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:31:00 -
[558] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Unkind Omen wrote: 1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?
With regards to 1. No you don't. You get your 3 Racial BC skills, but you get 0 free SP. Your current BC skill just gets converted into the 3 racials. Because you have at least one of the racials, you get no refund. The refund only occurs if you have ZERO racials.
I would like to see any confirmation from CCP about this point. I doubt because I cant imagine a char that has no racial frigate skills at level 3 but destroyer skill trained. Same goes for battlecuisers skill. Which makes literally no one eligable for skill points refund if your POV is correct. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:34:00 -
[559] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links... when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need
e.g. vulture will be bonused towards
siege warfare link information warfare links The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist". The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not.
Well a shield fleet doesn't need the armoured warfare skill or necessarily the bonus from the skirmish and information warfare.
Perhaps since it is a specialist command ship it should need the specialist skill for the links it would make more sense and be more race specific and more relative toward the race's ship. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
605
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:39:00 -
[560] - Quote
Unkind Omen wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Unkind Omen wrote: 1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?
With regards to 1. No you don't. You get your 3 Racial BC skills, but you get 0 free SP. Your current BC skill just gets converted into the 3 racials. Because you have at least one of the racials, you get no refund. The refund only occurs if you have ZERO racials. I would like to see any confirmation from CCP about this point. I doubt because I cant imagine a char that has no racial frigate skills at level 3 but destroyer skill trained. Same goes for battlecuisers skill. Which makes literally no one eligable for skill points refund if your POV is correct. This has already been confirmed in the blog as well as other clarifying posts. |
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Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
548
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:43:00 -
[561] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Rommiee wrote:
You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.
This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.
For capital ships quite a few days of navigation skills were added, which should compensate somewhat, especially since it's on another mapping entirely. Also it makes no sense at all to compare the times used to ENTER a ship. There's a ton of skills required to actually fly a ship and those don't change at all. So what if the lvl 1 skill for Armageddon Navy Issue was reduced from 7 days to 3 days? Only a moron or a desperate person would fly that thing without at least 100-150 days in support and gunnery skills and to fly the ship efficiently you would also need the BS skill at least at IV, better yet V, which takes longer than BS1 in the first place. So you're looking at a change from something like 144-184 days to 140-180. Big deal. Where the new system really shines is if you already have all the support skills and need to change to another race's shis due to guild doctrin, as it severly cuts down on training time. Well actually I can see part of where they're coming from. Whereas part of the skills required to fly the ship have been removed, some of the skills required to fly the ship well have been added to the requirements. So it takes the same amount of time to get into the ship, but it takes less time to train the skills necessary to fly the ship well. So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.
Exactly my point. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:48:00 -
[562] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:After the expansion, the requirements on Commands Ships drop to {racial} Battlecruiser V and Command Ships I. This means that I can sit in every Command Ship, since Minmatar Cruiser IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and a lack of Logistics skills are no longer holding me back. Furthermore, since I would have injected and trained Command Ships before the change, I would not have to train the various {type} Warfare skills.
Sounds like quite a deal to me. Assuming you've got all Cruisers to III, which is trivial to get if you haven't . . . yeah, you will clean up. It's arguably more of a bonus that cloning the racial skills, since you get to not train stuff that's required today, and not train stuff that will be required tomorrow, and yet you can still fly all those ships that you couldn't even sit in before. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:51:00 -
[563] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:Well a shield fleet doesn't need the armoured warfare skill or necessarily the bonus from the skirmish and information warfare. Shield fleets "don't need" Hull Upgrades, Signature Analysis, or Evasive Maneuvering either. |
Merouk Baas
523
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:55:00 -
[564] - Quote
Command Ship prerequisites made sense to me. You fly Command Ships in order to provide boosts / buffs to your fleet. And to install links. Just like nobody will take your Logi ship to an incursion or PVP fight without good skills for it, nobody will want your command ship unless you have the Leadership skills trained and the appropriate boost modules installed.
Leadership takes a long time and sucks because it's Charisma primary. It wouldn't be so bad if CCP made it Willpower primary. But, that's their choice. |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
548
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:56:00 -
[565] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:
Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days Orca > 49 days to 17 days
Thats funny, none of the times that anybody else comes up with are anything close to yours. In fact many t2 ships actually take a bit longer to train into after this change, and by a bit, some are significantly longer.
Those times were taken from the Dev Blog, and I can't see any T2 ships in that list. Maybe it would be an idea to read that properly before commenting on it here.
Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless. If they need to be trained anyway why do you care if they add them in as prereqs?
I will quote some one else's reply to illustrate the point...
Whereas part of the skills required to fly the ship have been removed, some of the skills required to fly the ship well have been added to the requirements. So it takes the same amount of time to get into the ship, but it takes less time to train the skills necessary to fly the ship well.
So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.
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Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
548
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:57:00 -
[566] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing.
From your point of view, there would be no need to aquire skills for anything. Just let players of any age fly whatever they want, that would sort out your ISK sink. Eve has been known for being hard and not pandering to the casual player who wants everything now. Being able to fly caps SHOULD be hard and take time. The changes to Cap requrements are just dumb.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
605
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 23:10:00 -
[567] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing. From your point of view, there would be no need to aquire skills for anything. Just let players of any age fly whatever they want, that would sort out your ISK sink. Eve has been known for being hard and not pandering to the casual player who wants everything now. Being able to fly caps SHOULD be hard and take time. The changes to Cap requrements are just dumb. What gains are there behind adding strictly non beneficial time, which shouldn't be confused with adding difficulty, to getting into a ship? |
Callor
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 23:11:00 -
[568] - Quote
Assuming that the clone changes that CCP has mentioned in passing aren't included in this patch can we get compensation for the clone upgrades that CCP is making us purchase. I have a perfectly good clone I paid 20M for and after this patch I will have to pay another 30M in order to pay for the next level. This cost is a direct result of game changes and due to the severe consequences of not upgrading I have no choice but to pay the money.
CCP has indicated they will be making the effort to ensure players remain whole from a skillpoint stand point and it is only fair if they also make sure we are not impacted financially. Automatically upgrading everyone to the next clone level during the patch would also be acceptable. |
Unkind Omen
Stone circle W-Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 23:17:00 -
[569] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Unkind Omen wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Unkind Omen wrote: 1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?
With regards to 1. No you don't. You get your 3 Racial BC skills, but you get 0 free SP. Your current BC skill just gets converted into the 3 racials. Because you have at least one of the racials, you get no refund. The refund only occurs if you have ZERO racials. I would like to see any confirmation from CCP about this point. I doubt because I cant imagine a char that has no racial frigate skills at level 3 but destroyer skill trained. Same goes for battlecuisers skill. Which makes literally no one eligable for skill points refund if your POV is correct. This has already been confirmed in the blog as well as other clarifying posts.
Ok, I found it. Nice idea to post that in a new topic instead of answering here or at least giving a link in OP. However I am even more disappointed now, because the amount of people who will be left behind will only rise with no SP reimbursment. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
963
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 23:19:00 -
[570] - Quote
Lfod Shi wrote:Think I just slipped off that learning curve cliff again. Gonna have to read that blog 8 or 10 more times. blblblblblblblblblbl
It will be how it will be.
As someone who teaches basic literacy to adults, what I find really interesting is how hard it is to communicate clearly and effectively just using the written word. This is not a signature. |
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Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
52
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 00:25:00 -
[571] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:Whereas part of the skills required to fly the ship have been removed, some of the skills required to fly the ship well have been added to the requirements. So it takes the same amount of time to get into the ship, but it takes less time to train the skills necessary to fly the ship well. The problem is that some of the skills "needed to fly the ship" are not at all "needed to fly the ship". Jump drives on WH carriers being the most egregious example.
IMO, for the tech 1 ships: (1) go back to IVs (2) stop pre-req stuffing. If I want to fly my dread without siege mode, that's my problem.
I really don't get the logic of going to III if you're worried about qualification times. Dropping from V to IV already reduces training times by 5.6, reducing the base "I can sit in the hull" to about 20 days (although caps are sorta tech 1.5, having additional pre-reqs beyond the simple skill progression). Dropping to III reduces it to trivial.
Also, the argument sorta rings hollow when BS don't have extra pre-reqs, and can now be qualified for in two days or so. Under the existing IV-IV system, a new player going it alone will be able to meet pre-reqs long before they can afford the hull. Under the new system, the only people who really get to shortcut pre-reqs are alts.
Meanwhile, alts being rush-trained into caps for a very specific "traditional" role are rewarded, while everyone who wants to organically move in and try things out is told "no, if you aren't going to train to fly the ship THIS way, don't bother".
Yes, it's sorta nice to make cross-training cheaper, but the new rules make it trivial. For carriers, the is NO functional barrier to training all four once you train one. For dreads, you still need the racial guns, at least.
You've said "the new rules will make it easier to specialise" (but maybe harder to generalise). The carrier changes do the exact opposite: they reward power-blocs chasing the metagame and yet provide no assistance to newer players training carriers for niche roles.*
*Technically, training time doesn't increase, but you've moved the pre-reqs from spaceship command (which is in the same attribute sequence as all the other spaceship skills) to navigation.
Don't stuff pre-reqs for T1 ships. Figure what time you want for the hull (not the role, the hull - stop telling us how to fly our ships), and let the support skills figure themselves out.
T2 ships I have less of an issue with, as they are supposed to be "specialist", and thus it's not unreasonable to expect someone to master some skills before starting. If you are getting rid of the chained pre-reqs, make sure you put the same back in (ie assault cruisers should require the same pre-reqs as assault frigs do now, maybe plus extras).
tl;dr - new cap ship (specifically carrier) pre-reqs are a huge buff to mega-alliances while not giving much to anyone else. Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
548
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 00:35:00 -
[572] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Rommiee wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing. From your point of view, there would be no need to aquire skills for anything. Just let players of any age fly whatever they want, that would sort out your ISK sink. Eve has been known for being hard and not pandering to the casual player who wants everything now. Being able to fly caps SHOULD be hard and take time. The changes to Cap requrements are just dumb. What gains are there behind adding strictly non beneficial time, which shouldn't be confused with adding difficulty, to getting into a ship?
The concept of skill progression is what EVE is built on. I can understand the reason behind some of the changes, even though CCP have contradicted themselves in the Dev Blog, but that's another story.
You mention non-beneficial time being compared with adding difficulty. I have no idea what you mean by 'adding difficulty'.
I do not believe that retaining Battleship 5 as a pre-req is non-beneficial. Most Cap pilots will also be flying Battleships from time to time, and this level of BS 5 will be beneficial to them in these cases.
It is not the same as being a Super pilot, where the skill set only applies to that ship, as you cannot leave it (unless you use a holding char).
|
Merouk Baas
523
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 01:03:00 -
[573] - Quote
Well, they removed the Battleship 5 requirement specifically for Super's. A Super alt doesn't care about battleships; the requirement is just a frustrating delay. On the other hand, carrier pilots who want to fly battleships can voluntarily train Battleships to 5. Nothing's removed from the carrier pilot's capabilities, and some training time is removed from the Super alt's training plan. |
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
52
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 01:39:00 -
[574] - Quote
OK, here are the take-home effects of these changes
(1) Racial ship skill as a pre-req is basically a non-issue. (2) Characters are encouraged to specialise in a class of ships, not a race. (3) The intent is that the hull pre-req skills are skills you would want anyway, which means that total training times have been reduced across the board, especially for cap ships.
Is this "working as intended"?
Major beneficiary: specialist alts
Disadvantages and issues: - characters are not encouraged to spend time building proficiency in smaller ships of a given race before moving to larger - Carrier pre-reqs don't reflect reality of WH carriers
Other features: - characters are only encouraged to specialise racially when working toward T2 ships, or by factors such as weapon types. For ships with no racial weapon dependency (carriers, haulers,etc), there is no encouragement to focus on a single race's ships.
Is this "working as intended"?
Side thought: it would be interesting if carriers (and maybe all drone boats) had a bias towards their own race's drones (eg extra +5% over the skill-based bonuses). Of course, this would require that some of the less impressive drones (*cough* Amarr *cough*) be made more comparable. Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
605
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 01:41:00 -
[575] - Quote
Rommiee wrote: The concept of skill progression is what EVE is built on. I can understand the reason behind some of the changes, even though CCP have contradicted themselves in the Dev Blog, but that's another story.
You mention non-beneficial time being compared with adding difficulty. I have no idea what you mean by 'adding difficulty'.
I do not believe that retaining Battleship 5 as a pre-req is non-beneficial. Most Cap pilots will also be flying Battleships from time to time, and this level of BS 5 will be beneficial to them in these cases.
It is not the same as being a Super pilot, where the skill set only applies to that ship, as you cannot leave it (unless you use a holding char).
I mention that it isn't adding difficulty because you mentioned eve should be difficult. Having long prerequisites doesn't do that. Adding skills that ensure some measure of efficiency could be argued as a reduction in difficulty, as it means using the ship while not being able to draw upon it's capabilities would be a thing of the past, but that has nothing to do with a reduction in barrier of entry.
And the benefit of BS V is extremely questionable in both capitol and supercapitol specialist characters. The current proposed skill tree seems designed with that very thought in mind. Working your way to a hull now concentrates training time in improving that hull rather than requiring battleship specialization just to board other classes of ships which function very differently and draw no actual benefit from the specialization.
For those that do want the benefit of being proficient in both BS and capitol ships the option remains, but the fact that it may benefit them is not a good reason to force BS specialization.
Skill progression as I saw it was about taking the time to choose a goal and how to proceed towards it. To me it seems logical that if that goal didn't require other irrelevant prerequisites then it's not an intelligent decision to do them. Yet for some reason the argument is being made that those same irrelevant skills being mandatory somehow enriches the pilot.
To be honest I'm all for low prereqs and hard lessons for not being really ready for a ship but piloting it anyways, and in allowing real room for true specialization rather than the last level in a skill only specialization that the current tree supports and caps didn't support at all. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
996
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:03:00 -
[576] - Quote
What I just love about this skill revamp, and a bump of 6 million SP to me, is it HURTS, not helps me.
I have 97M SP. I can already fly all the ships in question at level V. I gain no new abilities to fly any ship.
So exactly what does that 6M SP get me? It gets me into a more expensive med clone about 3.8 months faster.
Thanks CCP. Not only are you dumbing the game down, closing the gap between the new and old players, but you actually PENALIZE the high SP players.
I am sure some marketing class will do a case study on this debacle as an examination of how to **** off your longest standing customers. |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:04:00 -
[577] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:There also shouldn't be such thing as "the best tech1 industrial"
Fuc k me mate you are a little slow aren't you?
Currently all industrials have their advantages based on different cargo space and training time, as well as tankability to avoid sploding to a single Nado.
The Itty V was the most cargo for the most training time, Bestower was the good 'train a hauler alt' and the Badger II is the best suicide prevention tanker.
What your doing with the skill change is making the itty V the best hauler full stop. Unless you do the teiricide right then and there, it's going to be that way until you do it soon*.
As said before, the CS prerequisites are bloody stupid, I never fly links, but I love Sleipnirs. A new player to CS is going to have the same training time as before IF they never ever wanted to fly t2 cruisers (so about no one), but instead will have a bunch of useless skills to V they will probably never use. Oh the JDC III and JDF!! IV gets me, of course fuel conservation is more important when flying a capitol than range* sarcasm.
Take your head out of the sand. Nice one not putting this in F&I so we could throw back ideas, instead straight into THIS IS HAPPENING. I mean you even changed all the prereques from IV to III without any discussion at all. Fire yourself and hire someone that understands game mechanics. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
420
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:09:00 -
[578] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not.
This is exactly why my Orca pilot has all 4 warfare at V.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil.
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Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:11:00 -
[579] - Quote
Merouk Baas wrote:Command Ship prerequisites made sense to me. You fly Command Ships in order to provide boosts / buffs to your fleet. And to install links. Just like nobody will take your Logi ship to an incursion or PVP fight without good skills for it, nobody will want your command ship unless you have the Leadership skills trained and the appropriate boost modules installed.
Leadership takes a long time and sucks because it's Charisma primary. It wouldn't be so bad if CCP made it Willpower primary. But, that's their choice.
You do realise there's an entirely separate line of CS called Field Command right?
They're basically T2 BC's which just happen to get a bonus to links, no one actually puts links on them. They do lots of dps, have great tank and great resists. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:25:00 -
[580] - Quote
Akturous wrote:Merouk Baas wrote:Command Ship prerequisites made sense to me. You fly Command Ships in order to provide boosts / buffs to your fleet. And to install links. Just like nobody will take your Logi ship to an incursion or PVP fight without good skills for it, nobody will want your command ship unless you have the Leadership skills trained and the appropriate boost modules installed.
Leadership takes a long time and sucks because it's Charisma primary. It wouldn't be so bad if CCP made it Willpower primary. But, that's their choice. You do realise there's an entirely separate line of CS called Field Command right? They're basically T2 BC's which just happen to get a bonus to links, no one actually puts links on them. They do lots of dps, have great tank and great resists.
You do realise CCP months ago said that 'line' distinction was vanishing as well. And all the Command ships are being set up to allow for three links, as well as to allow for DPS on all of them when not fitting links. The two different CS for each race will now fit different weapon systems instead. Trading on the two primary weapon systems for each race.
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
763
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 04:32:00 -
[581] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist"
I think "big difference" may be overstating it somewhat, no?
Skills wise (which is what we're talking about here) the difference between them is a grand total of 3 hours and 1.5 million ISK. |
Cpt Bogus
Whimsical Mining Refining and Exploration
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 04:47:00 -
[582] - Quote
This all seems pretty reasonable...when destroyers and BCs were added they were somewhat of specialty ships which (especially on the BC side) became the new standard due to game mechanics. Converting BC/Destroyer level X to 4x level X racial skills is good, it gives people 'free SP' but what's important is that it doesn't penalize people who trained BC 5 and moved on becuase that was all to train.
One question on the EAF/Interdictor change that's likely already been covered in this threadnought I'm not reading all of, if someone has the ship skill but not the new prerequisite skills will they still be able to fly the ship or must they train the new prereq? If so, does the same apply to further training of the skill? |
ako ako
I.C.E Initiative
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 05:07:00 -
[583] - Quote
For the new Command ship prereqs:
Freighdee Katt wrote:[quote=Jonas Sukarala]Well a shield fleet doesn't need the armoured warfare skill or necessarily the bonus from the skirmish and information warfare.
Take Sleipnir as this is a 'shield' ship you would fly after training CS: Think about the times it can dip into armor before logi / local reps catch on, Armored Warfare bonus helps with a little more buffer before the ship explodes. Consider that it is a bc, so Skirmish Warfare bonus helps it get into, around and out of a fight faster. Contemplate that faster locking generally means faster application of DPS, so Information Warfare helps here.
A better negitive arguement to this would have that the Siege Wafare skill does not match the armored CS. However, I find I like those few seconds that a tiny shield buffer will give me before I need to worried about my armor tank, so Siege Warfare is beneicial here. Also the shield/gank Astarte would like to say hi. And btw, the Damnation / Absolution enjoy that agility bonus.
As Freighdee Katt said "Shield fleets "don't need" Hull Upgrades, Signature Analysis, or Evasive Maneuvering either"
To agree and add to this solid line of thinking, there are many skills that have a indirect positive effect on a ship which are not 'needed' but very helpful. They could have used other skills that did not really enhance the ship. In the removal of the Cruiser / Assault / Heavy Assault / Logi skills which had no direct positve effect on the ship and replacement of skills that do have a positive effect, I believe that the Dev's have decided on the correct course of action for Command Ships. |
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises The Marmite Collective
46
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 05:40:00 -
[584] - Quote
Quote:Command Ships
Racial Cruiser 5 requirement swapped for racial Battlecruiser 5 Generic and old Battlecruiser skill removed from the Command Ship skill Heavy Assault Ships skill requirement removed from Field Command Ships (Absolution, Nighthawk, Astarte, Sleipnir) Logistics skill requirement removed from Fleet Command Ships (Damnation, Vulture, Eos, Claymore) Information Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Armored Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Siege Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Skirmish Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill
So wait, to fly any of the Command ships you'd have to train up all the Base Leadership skills to 5?
Wouldn't it make more sense for it to only be to 5 for the bonuses of that ship?
Not a complaint, it just doesn't make much sense. eëÆWhomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my AutocannonseëÆ eÉà |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 05:51:00 -
[585] - Quote
Cpt Bogus wrote:This all seems pretty reasonable...when destroyers and BCs were added they were somewhat of specialty ships which (especially on the BC side) became the new standard due to game mechanics. Converting BC/Destroyer level X to 4x level X racial skills is good, it gives people 'free SP' but what's important is that it doesn't penalize people who trained BC 5 and moved on becuase that was all to train.
One question on the EAF/Interdictor change that's likely already been covered in this threadnought I'm not reading all of, if someone has the ship skill but not the new prerequisite skills will they still be able to fly the ship or must they train the new prereq? If so, does the same apply to further training of the skill?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
having ship skill u can fly the ship, and learn the EAF/interdictor skill pass lvl 1. |
Cid SilverWing
Grim Determination Clockworks Inc. Nulli Tertius
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 06:43:00 -
[586] - Quote
CCP, what you are doing here is adding a heap of training time unto new players who haven't trained Destroyers and Battlecruisers.
This will pad out the gameplay longer than it has to be and subsequently drive away new players.
Do NOT go through with this change. There are enough skills to train without us having to train even more separate sub-caps. |
JN Jarvis
Digital Undead Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 07:48:00 -
[587] - Quote
So lets say I have BC at 5 with all racial cruiser skills at 3, same for destroyers at 5 and all racial frigates at 3, will CCP automatically assign me the racial BC and destroyer skills at 5 each or will they just give me skill points so I can allocate them? |
Takumiro
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 08:29:00 -
[588] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links... when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need
e.g. vulture will be bonused towards
siege warfare link information warfare links The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist". The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not. Well a shield fleet doesn't need the armoured warfare skill or necessarily the bonus from the skirmish and information warfare. Perhaps since it is a specialist command ship it should need the specialist skills for the links it would be bonused for it would make more sense and be more race specific and more relative toward the race's ship.
Get Out. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 08:54:00 -
[589] - Quote
I like the way of thinking like "no low specialism to fly a big tech II ship" . personally for me, that is fitting my trained skills very well and besides, it really makes sense.
But i ask myself, how about the pilot who decides to fly a tech II Battleship with according firepower. What i try to ask is, if this changes are planned to set accordingly to wepon specialisations? what absolutly would make sense as well, since a artillery operator doesn-¦t have to be a pro in Handguns. (something like "/small turret III / medium turret III / heavy turret V", and if the loss in training time is to much, add " /motion prediction III / Rapid Fireing III / sharpshooter III ... " to it. Is something like that in plan?
I also got somewhat "made interested" into the Command Ship Changes. I also like the idea here, to take out the whole tertiery skill. But lvl 5 in all link specialisations is a bit to much of the good. No "specialisation rquireie argument" and than force every Command ship commander to Lvl 5 the different boosts? Lvl 3 or 4 for each, and say Warefare link specialist to lvl 5. That would cover the "all arround boost argument" for "the specific Roll of this particular command ship" ass well. Remember it can fit 3 Boost modules,and each cathegory of Link specialisition has 3 Modules availeble. And if this isn-¦t enough training time yet, you could always add a Wing Command level, since these is a COMMAND Ship - in the end.
Industrials.. to fly an Iteron 5 with aprox 35km-¦ Cargo (with rigs and hullupgrades) sounds pritty nice, but besides a few Pilots who want the slightly difference in speed, there would be not much use anymore for all five Itron Versions. Not to speak about the hole between Industrial I (Iteron clases) and Industrial V (Blockaderunner). Basically i-¦d say if between the Iterons is a bigger difference in speed/Armor/Shield/whatever, then it makes sense. Also Maybe a new ship class/lvl on Industrials Lvl 3 wich lies somewhere in corgo capacities of, dunno 50-100 Km-¦ (what also would be another change to the "Orca Transport Ship thingy"). I can only talk out of the sight of Gellente ships, but i-¦d say this (maybe) somehow could be aplied to other races, ass well. Besides there is a big hole between "Industrial Class Haulers" and "Frighter class Haulers" anyway. Especially when the Frighters get the need for Advanced Spaceship Command V, then !
What i see so far is that the basic abylity to use more ships with smaller time effort is a good way to give new Player a faster "i got a shiny new toy" effect and therefore more ambition to stay in the game. thats basically a good - and maybe a necessary thing, given the complexity of EVE. I have to admit, that this kind of achivement also was the reason, why i looked further into the game, in my beginnings. On second sight, i don-¦t know what a aged pilot really get out of it. For me, it looks a bit like, fast abylity for new ships and therefore a longer stay of new players, and either they find their playstyle in that time or they quit when the next achievement gets to far away. So if my guts are right, and that would be the real reason behind that particular reballance, then i would see a lot of other (and/or) additional ways to archieve that goal with other (possible) game mechanics rather than make Navy Issue Battleship Available after 3 Days of Playing (instead of 7 Days). And much of them would be much more interesting for Newbies. Atlest it would have been for me, at that time. |
Cyaron wars
D00M. Northern Coalition.
22
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 08:58:00 -
[590] - Quote
Dear CCP,
First of all I would like to thank you for all those marvelous changes with BCs and new armor mods you are going to release soon. Now I would like to ask something about capital ships.
So after Battleship skill re-balancing capital ships will no longer require racial Battleship 5. This will make it faster to train for. But I as one of your customers, person that pays money, I feel a bit sad.
Let's transfer all this stuff to RL cash that we pay you.
I have spent ~$15 per month and 40 days for each Battleship lvl 5 just to be able to fly all capital ships. This is roughly $90 and 6 ~5.5 months of training. Now you say that this requirements are going to be reduced and somebody else will get same product that I got ,but only for $15 and 2-3 weeks of training. I feel myself like an idiot who payed 6 times more for something others are getting. And this is not something like damn cell phone that you buy for 1k USD today and in 1 month it's cost is reduced to $500, because newer models are released.
I would like to know if CCP ever thought of this approach (because your final goal is to earn money for something you do), and if you ever planned to give people who already wasted 6 months on that something as benefit just to compensate those expenses? |
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Craven More
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.02.09 09:25:00 -
[591] - Quote
After having read through this thread, its clear that there is allot of confusion over the basic principal, of :
Having the skills to fly a ship is one thing, having the support skills to be able to run / fly it effectively is another.
Please dont bur the lines between should be support skills & skills that are actually needed to be able to fly different ships. If your going to say a certain ship now has this role or that role, thats fine, but leave the rest to the players to choose how they intend to make use of it, instead of incorporating skill requirements into the ships prerequist's.
Its each individual's players choice as to what support skills they choose to train, in order to run the ship the way they want to, for the purpose they intend to use it as opposed to the use you say it should be. Regardless if thats a good or bad choice.
I also question the removal of racial BS5 from capitals. Having BS 5 is nice granted, but with the intended changes there is clearly now no way, anyone would bother to train it and those that have, given a choice wouldnt have bothered either because its not needed. So they rightly so, can feel ripped off having spent time trainning and earning skillpoints that they could of applied elsewhere. |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 09:30:00 -
[592] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Akturous wrote:Merouk Baas wrote:Command Ship prerequisites made sense to me. You fly Command Ships in order to provide boosts / buffs to your fleet. And to install links. Just like nobody will take your Logi ship to an incursion or PVP fight without good skills for it, nobody will want your command ship unless you have the Leadership skills trained and the appropriate boost modules installed.
Leadership takes a long time and sucks because it's Charisma primary. It wouldn't be so bad if CCP made it Willpower primary. But, that's their choice. You do realise there's an entirely separate line of CS called Field Command right? They're basically T2 BC's which just happen to get a bonus to links, no one actually puts links on them. They do lots of dps, have great tank and great resists. You do realise CCP months ago said that 'line' distinction was vanishing as well. And all the Command ships are being set up to allow for three links, as well as to allow for DPS on all of them when not fitting links. The two different CS for each race will now fit different weapon systems instead. Trading on the two primary weapon systems for each race.
Does matter what they're doing with them, the vast majority of people who fly one never put a link on it and ccp are making people train useless skills. At least AF's HACS and Logi are all very useful skills for everyone to have. |
Lord Purifier
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 09:40:00 -
[593] - Quote
CCP Two Questions:
1) So If applying JCD & JFC requirements to carriers, then why isnt it being applied to dreads and titans ? And on what basis did you determine that JDC3 & JFC4 were appropriate when you know full well JCD4 & JFC4 are the basic requirements for low/nul sec alliances. WH space alliances/corps are another story again, may not even use need/use these skills.
Something thats always puzzeled me is:
2) Why dose the Jump Portal Generation skill, only effected Titan bridge fuel usage and not Black Ops jump portal fuel usage/consumption ? Makes sense that it should effect both right, but dosent in reality, when it should. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 09:50:00 -
[594] - Quote
JN Jarvis wrote:So lets say I have BC at 5 with all racial cruiser skills at 3, same for destroyers at 5 and all racial frigates at 3, will CCP automatically assign me the racial BC and destroyer skills at 5 each or will they just give me skill points so I can allocate them?
CCP Fozzie wrote:ORCACommander wrote:You need a blurb in there about where to apply for reimbursement and when you want us to apply. No need to apply, the new skills will be done and placed in your head automagically.
skills will be appeared at u sheets automagically, no free SP |
JN Jarvis
Digital Undead Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 10:52:00 -
[595] - Quote
And what if I'm flying a Charon around right now with Advance Spaceship Command 4, and according to the blog I'll need it at 5, will I still be able to fly it after the implementation? |
Solomunio Kzenig
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 10:57:00 -
[596] - Quote
StarStryder wrote:
Also, for the Command ships, why not remove the Warfare skills (except Warfare Link Specialist) from Command Ships and add two of them to each Ship and a tertiary requirement?
As a player with 2 differentially specialised CC/OGB alts in training I like this. |
Solomunio Kzenig
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 10:58:00 -
[597] - Quote
JN Jarvis wrote:And what if I'm flying a Charon around right now with Advance Spaceship Command 4, and according to the blog I'll need it at 5, will I still be able to fly it after the implementation?
Yes you will be able to fly your Charon, you will just not be able to train the Freighter skill up any further until you get ASC to V.
Overall I like the skill changes, CC skills could do with some tweaking imho. 1st thing I did after reading the Dev Blog was get Mining Frigate Skill Books and trian them to III on all my chars. |
Jungleland Roy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 11:27:00 -
[598] - Quote
Solomunio Kzenig wrote:JN Jarvis wrote:And what if I'm flying a Charon around right now with Advance Spaceship Command 4, and according to the blog I'll need it at 5, will I still be able to fly it after the implementation? Yes you will be able to fly your Charon, you will just not be able to train the Freighter skill up any further until you get ASC to V. Overall I like the skill changes, CC skills could do with some tweaking imho. 1st thing I did after reading the Dev Blog was get Mining Frigate Skill Books and trian them to III on all my chars.
Wrong.
IF you have the skill then you can train it further - even if you don't satisfy the requirements after the skll changes go through.
Decision announced Friday. Check the backpages. |
Flying Apocalypse
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 12:08:00 -
[599] - Quote
I am amazed ccp even reads these forums anymore...Or haven't sold their brains yet...I am definitly considering selling mine after following this thread since the blog released.
The dev blog is pretty clear(Sure it has some vague points, but all of that has been answered by devs)
If you got the skills to fly a ship right now, you can fly it after the change and can still train the relevant ship skill up even if you no longer have the prerequisited skills.(As long as you got the skill injected you can train it)
The Command Ship changes are for the NORMAL boosting skills, NOT the LINKS. So as a boosting character, you should have them anyway.
They will be rebalancing the industrials, so don't be too worried about the Iteron's till atleast a month before release since we have no idea what they will consist of once tiericide hits.
And it was your choice to train for a capital with the current skill prereqs, you can now fly it so why do you even care if that changes? It wont affect you anymore since you can already fly your capital. And if you ever step inside a shiny BS once again, you will be glad with that lvl 5 skill I'm sure.
I'm not saying that the prereqs for carriers are perfect with what CCP has in mind. But just raging about it won't help, give some real feedback about it.
For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o |
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 12:13:00 -
[600] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:This is all great but...I trained BS V on three races to fly the capitals. If that isn't a requirements any more I'd like those skill points back as I would never have trained them to that degree. That's 100+ days of training another player doing the same thing after these change won't have to do.
I know somebody with a similar problem but with freighters.
Oh, yes, I do know the counter-arguments: Now you're able to fly each and every industrial and transport ship!
As if I would care about them when I'm able to fly all freighters and jump freighters. Ok, maybe the transport ships of one race, but not all! |
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
33
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 12:29:00 -
[601] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:I have spent ~$15 per month and 40 days for each Battleship lvl 5 just to be able to fly all capital ships. This is roughly $90 and 6 ~5.5 months of training. Now you say that this requirements are going to be reduced and somebody else will get same product that I got ,but only for $15 and 2-3 weeks of training.
I bought a computer 3 years ago for 1000$. Last week someone bought the same computer for 100$.
Boy, I really feel cheated and want my money back! Also I will never buy a computer again, it's a total rip off! |
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
54
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 12:49:00 -
[602] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
I don't see how different rules for different people is good news... |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
33
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 12:58:00 -
[603] - Quote
Caius Sivaris wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best I don't see how different rules for different people is good news...
It's good news because apparently training skills where prereqs were missing was NOT explicitely impossible in the past but caused all kinds of bugs with the skill queue. So simply allowing any injected skill to be trained seems a good way to prevent all kinds of headaches. |
Cyaron wars
D00M. Northern Coalition.
22
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 13:13:00 -
[604] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Cyaron wars wrote:I have spent ~$15 per month and 40 days for each Battleship lvl 5 just to be able to fly all capital ships. This is roughly $90 and 6 ~5.5 months of training. Now you say that this requirements are going to be reduced and somebody else will get same product that I got ,but only for $15 and 2-3 weeks of training. I bought a computer 3 years ago for 1000$. Last week someone bought the same computer for 100$. Boy, I really feel cheated and want my money back! Also I will never buy a computer again, it's a total rip off!
If you woul'd read post till the end you wouldn't comment this, but let me explain how things work.
Price of goods drop only after better version is released. For exaple u buy iphone 4 and then iphone 5 is released. Or apple will say that iphone 4 is crap. In case with this one we haven't got any better version of capitals that erquire LVL 5 skills.
|
Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
215
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 13:14:00 -
[605] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist".
The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not.
You mean squad booster position, right?
Yes, I am bored Why active tank bonuses are bad for you |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
732
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 13:51:00 -
[606] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Cyaron wars wrote:I have spent ~$15 per month and 40 days for each Battleship lvl 5 just to be able to fly all capital ships. This is roughly $90 and 6 ~5.5 months of training. Now you say that this requirements are going to be reduced and somebody else will get same product that I got ,but only for $15 and 2-3 weeks of training. I bought a computer 3 years ago for 1000$. Last week someone bought the same computer for 100$. Boy, I really feel cheated and want my money back! Also I will never buy a computer again, it's a total rip off! If you woul'd read post till the end you wouldn't comment this, but let me explain how things work. Price of goods drop only after better version is released. For exaple u buy iphone 4 and then iphone 5 is released. Or apple will say that iphone 4 is crap. In case with this one we haven't got any better version of capitals that erquire LVL 5 skills. then again I have, according to you, "wasted time" to train all battleship skills to 5, and I don't feel cheated.
why? because they are still useful.
I mean, last time I checked, BS V isn't only good for capital ships.
I know, shocking. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3800
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 13:53:00 -
[607] - Quote
CCP TOOK AWAY BS 5 WITHOUT TELLING US RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Dysgenesis
Dhoomcats
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 14:19:00 -
[608] - Quote
Personally I think adding module skills as a prerequisite for new pilots to train for a hull to be a major error of judgement. The reason given (so people aren't confused by an apparently shorter training time) is weak, no-one should be surprised that you have to train more than just the basic hull skill to improve your abilities in a given ship beyond the absolute basics required to fly it. However my main problem is if forces people to fly ships for their given role rather than whatever purpose they want. The best example are command ships, only a proportion fly them because they want to boost fleets, many fly them because they are good ships for many other roles (such as solo/small gang pvp)
Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).
|
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3935
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 17:13:00 -
[609] - Quote
Dysgenesis wrote: Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).
Yes you will be able to continue to train the skill as long as you have it injected before the patch.
Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 17:16:00 -
[610] - Quote
Dysgenesis wrote:Personally I think adding module skills as a prerequisite for new pilots to train for a hull to be a major error of judgement. The reason given (so people aren't confused by an apparently shorter training time) is weak, no-one should be surprised that you have to train more than just the basic hull skill to improve your abilities in a given ship beyond the absolute basics required to fly it. However my main problem is if forces people to fly ships for their given role rather than whatever purpose they want. The best example are command ships, only a proportion fly them because they want to boost fleets, many fly them because they are good ships for many other roles (such as solo/small gang pvp)
Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).
Somebody PLEASE update the devblog itself, before the next person joining in the frenzy asks the same questions OVER AND OVER again!
Put it at the top and in yellow.
Edit: Better yet, pink!
But I somehow like the first paragraph of the above post. |
|
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:30:00 -
[611] - Quote
"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.
I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?
I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:
1. Get a proper CEO 2. Get proper executive management 3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result 4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities 5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me
This is my 2 cents.
Rage +1 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3804
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:39:00 -
[612] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this. Were you dropped on your head as a kid, or do you just like the taste of lead paint chips? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:43:00 -
[613] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Cyaron wars wrote:I have spent ~$15 per month and 40 days for each Battleship lvl 5 just to be able to fly all capital ships. This is roughly $90 and 6 ~5.5 months of training. Now you say that this requirements are going to be reduced and somebody else will get same product that I got ,but only for $15 and 2-3 weeks of training. I bought a computer 3 years ago for 1000$. Last week someone bought the same computer for 100$. Boy, I really feel cheated and want my money back! Also I will never buy a computer again, it's a total rip off!
How can you compare a piece of hardware to EVE? did the cost of subscription go down? did SPs depreciate? wake up my friend! I agree that this change is unfair.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3804
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:46:00 -
[614] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:How can you compare a piece of hardware to EVE? did the cost of subscription go down? did SPs depreciate? wake up my friend! I agree that this change is unfair. Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:47:00 -
[615] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this. Were you dropped on your head as a kid, or do you just like the taste of lead paint chips?
What? see what people play EVE... no comment. Sad. |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:48:00 -
[616] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:How can you compare a piece of hardware to EVE? did the cost of subscription go down? did SPs depreciate? wake up my friend! I agree that this change is unfair. Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP.
I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3804
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:50:00 -
[617] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:How can you compare a piece of hardware to EVE? did the cost of subscription go down? did SPs depreciate? wake up my friend! I agree that this change is unfair. Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP. I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management. If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:51:00 -
[618] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.
I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?
I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:
1. Get a proper CEO 2. Get proper executive management 3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result 4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities 5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me
This is my 2 cents.
Rage +1
People please read the DEVBLOG!
If you have BC 5 and all four cruisers to 3 you will get ALL 4 BC skills to 5. Just how often does that need to be answeared?!
And stating that you can fly all BC perfecly also means you already have all four cruisers to at least 3 - problem solved.
Also: "disenfranchised" - are you serious? Only because you pay a subscription does not mean you are some kind of shareholder of CCP. Or how would you ever have had a r"ight to vote"? |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
782
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:57:00 -
[619] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Dysgenesis wrote: Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).
Yes you will be able to continue to train the skill as long as you have it injected before the patch.
it would be funny on patch day if you are one day away from injecting the skill for command ships and then just to find out you have 3 more weeks of training... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 18:58:00 -
[620] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.
I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?
I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:
1. Get a proper CEO 2. Get proper executive management 3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result 4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities 5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me
This is my 2 cents.
Rage +1 People please read the DEVBLOG! If you have BC 5 and all four cruisers to 3 you will get ALL 4 BC skills to 5. Just how often does that need to be answeared?! And stating that you can fly all BC perfecly also means you already have all four cruisers to at least 3 - problem solved. Also: "disenfranchised" - are you serious? Only because you pay a subscription does not mean you are somekind of shareholder of CCP. Or how would you ever have had a right to "vote"?
I have read the DEV blog and the fact that it's not clear to me it means it's not written well enough. To your other point, yes I can vote and I have the right to criticise a decision or things that I think are not right. Why would you have the forums then? You can ban me if you wish.
|
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3804
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:01:00 -
[621] - Quote
It was quite clear to me and several other people.
Just because you had trouble understanding it doesn't mean it wasn't well written. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:02:00 -
[622] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:How can you compare a piece of hardware to EVE? did the cost of subscription go down? did SPs depreciate? wake up my friend! I agree that this change is unfair. Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP. I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management. If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound.
I don't sound stupid. But you comments previously did. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:03:00 -
[623] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.
I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?
I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:
1. Get a proper CEO 2. Get proper executive management 3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result 4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities 5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me
This is my 2 cents.
Rage +1 People please read the DEVBLOG! If you have BC 5 and all four cruisers to 3 you will get ALL 4 BC skills to 5. Just how often does that need to be answeared?! And stating that you can fly all BC perfecly also means you already have all four cruisers to at least 3 - problem solved. Also: "disenfranchised" - are you serious? Only because you pay a subscription does not mean you are somekind of shareholder of CCP. Or how would you ever have had a right to "vote"? I have read the DEV blog and the fact that it's not clear to me it means it's not written well enough. To your other point, yes I can vote and I have the right to criticise a decision or things that I think are not right. Why would you have the forums then? You can ban me if you wish.
Are you seriously trying to lobby that only because CCP is gracious enough to host a Forum for us, that you have a vote? No. You have not. You may merely voice your concerns about gameplay here. Which you did - I give you that.
But your concerns are nullified by the DEVBLOG and all the clarifications made in this thread already. |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:03:00 -
[624] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It was quite clear to me and several other people.
Just because you had trouble understanding it doesn't mean it wasn't well written.
That is interesting. Let's see how many people get it. My point stands. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3804
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:04:00 -
[625] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:How can you compare a piece of hardware to EVE? did the cost of subscription go down? did SPs depreciate? wake up my friend! I agree that this change is unfair. Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP. I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management. If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound. I don't sound stupid. But you comments previously did. Don't forget to fit the Damage Control II, it seems like you need it now more than ever. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Mund Richard
309
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:05:00 -
[626] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It was quite clear to me and several other people. Confirming I understood what I read on the first go, and know I will get all BC V-s. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
53
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:06:00 -
[627] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Dysgenesis wrote: Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).
Yes you will be able to continue to train the skill as long as you have it injected before the patch.
Could you double check this? It's the exact opposite of how I (and many others) read the previous dev opinion on this question. |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:06:00 -
[628] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.
I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?
I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:
1. Get a proper CEO 2. Get proper executive management 3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result 4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities 5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me
This is my 2 cents.
Rage +1 People please read the DEVBLOG! If you have BC 5 and all four cruisers to 3 you will get ALL 4 BC skills to 5. Just how often does that need to be answeared?! And stating that you can fly all BC perfecly also means you already have all four cruisers to at least 3 - problem solved. Also: "disenfranchised" - are you serious? Only because you pay a subscription does not mean you are somekind of shareholder of CCP. Or how would you ever have had a right to "vote"? I have read the DEV blog and the fact that it's not clear to me it means it's not written well enough. To your other point, yes I can vote and I have the right to criticise a decision or things that I think are not right. Why would you have the forums then? You can ban me if you wish. Are you seriously trying to lobby that only because CCP is gracious enough to host a Forum for us, that you have a vote? No. You have not. You may merely voice your concerns about gameplay here. Which you did - I give you that. But your concerns are nullified by the DEVBLOG and all the clarifications made in this thread already.
No. My vote is my multiple subscriptions. When I decide to vote NO I will stop paying. Is that good enough to you?
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:07:00 -
[629] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It was quite clear to me and several other people.
Just because you had trouble understanding it doesn't mean it wasn't well written. That is interesting. Let's see how many people get it. My point stands.
At the moment on Tranquility, the Prophecy requires two skills to fly: Amarr Cruiser 3 and Battlecruiser 1. Thus, if you have these two skills when the change happens, we will give you Amarr Battlecruiser 1. Simple so far.
The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.
It is noteworthy to point out that if you donGÇÖt have a racial Cruiser at 3, then you wonGÇÖt receive the corresponding racial Battlecruiser skill. It is thus worthwhile to train all Racial Cruiser skill at 3, then focus on maximizing Battlecruisers before the reimbursement happens.
If you cannot understand these three points, then nobody will be able to help you. Thus you "point" has no base. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:09:00 -
[630] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.
I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?
I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:
1. Get a proper CEO 2. Get proper executive management 3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result 4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities 5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me
This is my 2 cents.
Rage +1 People please read the DEVBLOG! If you have BC 5 and all four cruisers to 3 you will get ALL 4 BC skills to 5. Just how often does that need to be answeared?! And stating that you can fly all BC perfecly also means you already have all four cruisers to at least 3 - problem solved. Also: "disenfranchised" - are you serious? Only because you pay a subscription does not mean you are somekind of shareholder of CCP. Or how would you ever have had a right to "vote"? I have read the DEV blog and the fact that it's not clear to me it means it's not written well enough. To your other point, yes I can vote and I have the right to criticise a decision or things that I think are not right. Why would you have the forums then? You can ban me if you wish. Are you seriously trying to lobby that only because CCP is gracious enough to host a Forum for us, that you have a vote? No. You have not. You may merely voice your concerns about gameplay here. Which you did - I give you that. But your concerns are nullified by the DEVBLOG and all the clarifications made in this thread already. No. My vote is my multiple subscriptions. When I decide to vote NO I will stop paying. Is that good enough to you?
Yes. Neither CCP nor I need you to play this game. Simple as that. If you think that makes you "vote" than be happy with it. |
|
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:10:00 -
[631] - Quote
I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management.[/quote] If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound.[/quote]
I don't sound stupid. But you comments previously did.[/quote] Don't forget to fit the Damage Control II, it seems like you need it now more than ever.[/quote]
I use all low slots for DPS, maybe you are the one who needs it. |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:12:00 -
[632] - Quote
Are you seriously trying to lobby that only because CCP is gracious enough to host a Forum for us, that you have a vote? No. You have not. You may merely voice your concerns about gameplay here. Which you did - I give you that.
But your concerns are nullified by the DEVBLOG and all the clarifications made in this thread already.[/quote]
No. My vote is my multiple subscriptions. When I decide to vote NO I will stop paying. Is that good enough to you? [/quote]
Yes. Neither CCP nor I need you to play this game. Simple as that. If you think that makes you "vote" than be happy with it.[/quote]
I am afraid you will have to cope with this. But this is good, I like people who hate me. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:13:00 -
[633] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Dysgenesis wrote: Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).
Yes you will be able to continue to train the skill as long as you have it injected before the patch. Could you double check this? It's the exact opposite of how I (and many others) read the previous dev opinion on this question.
This is not an opinion, but basicly a change that is not active yet, but announced for the summer expansion.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
Party on. :) |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:16:00 -
[634] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Dysgenesis wrote: Also on that note, say you have command ships I and all the warfare skills to 4. After the patch I appreciate you will retain command ships I and still be able to fly the ship, but can you train command ships to level II? (I apologise if this has already been answered).
Yes you will be able to continue to train the skill as long as you have it injected before the patch. Could you double check this? It's the exact opposite of how I (and many others) read the previous dev opinion on this question.
There's a post where CCP Ytterbium says they're changing it to let you train injected skills (possibly just the ones involved here) you've lost pre-reqs for. To be honest, I'm amazed the game even checks that, but it's probably tied to, say, being podded and losing a pre-req.
Ah, found it: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2583413#post2583413 |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:26:00 -
[635] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:"If it worked before it will work after"... not true. To get to the maximum bonuses on BCs which BTW I already have, I will have to re-skill 3 of them! Most people do not understand the impact of this, see when that happens!
I didn't ask for this change! Today I have BC 5, I can fly all BCs with max bonuses, therefore to be fair you have to give me BC 5 for all races. If I have BC 4 I must get BC 4 for all races. Are you seriously thinking that I am going to let this happen and keep quiet? I am losing in this.
I want to continue playing EVE but I am getting more and more disenfranchised for every "expansion" which I am sorry to say it doesn't expand anything except for people's rage. Where is the expansion? I would call it reconfiguration to make things easy for noobs and give hell to people who have already invested lots of bucks into EVE. Do you recall how you killed incursions for example?
I would like to recommend a couple of things to CCP:
1. Get a proper CEO 2. Get proper executive management 3. For speeches and videos use actors so that you get the best result 4. Recruit someone who helps you align to your customers' needs and priorities 5. Play EVE yourself with a standard character that you must train from scratch, just like me
This is my 2 cents.
Rage +1 People please read the DEVBLOG! If you have BC 5 and all four cruisers to 3 you will get ALL 4 BC skills to 5. Just how often does that need to be answeared?! And stating that you can fly all BC perfecly also means you already have all four cruisers to at least 3 - problem solved. Also: "disenfranchised" - are you serious? Only because you pay a subscription does not mean you are somekind of shareholder of CCP. Or how would you ever have had a right to "vote"? I have read the DEV blog and the fact that it's not clear to me it means it's not written well enough. To your other point, yes I can vote and I have the right to criticise a decision or things that I think are not right. Why would you have the forums then? You can ban me if you wish. Are you seriously trying to lobby that only because CCP is gracious enough to host a Forum for us, that you have a vote? No. You have not. You may merely voice your concerns about gameplay here. Which you did - I give you that. But your concerns are nullified by the DEVBLOG and all the clarifications made in this thread already. No. My vote is my multiple subscriptions. When I decide to vote NO I will stop paying. Is that good enough to you?
In regard to my concerns, I did not read in Dev Blog that all racial BC skills will be at level 5 and it is still unclear to me despite you having clarified. After all you are not a DEV or a CCP rep... |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:32:00 -
[636] - Quote
Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP.[/quote]
I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management.[/quote] If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound.[/quote]
I don't sound stupid. But you comments previously did.[/quote] Don't forget to fit the Damage Control II, it seems like you need it now more than ever.[/quote]
Oh dear! This ****** has placed a 5M bounty on me! See what happens now! Is this the way children play? |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:34:00 -
[637] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote: Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP.
I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management.[/quote] If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound.[/quote]
I don't sound stupid. But you comments previously did.[/quote] Don't forget to fit the Damage Control II, it seems like you need it now more than ever.[/quote]
Oh dear! This ****** has placed a 5M bounty on me! See what happens now! Is this the way children play?[/quote]
There you go, 50M... I can escalate further. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:35:00 -
[638] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2589404#post2589404 is where I answeared to your concerns. Please this carefully. |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:38:00 -
[639] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote: Learn to read before you go criticizing CCP.
I support CCP my friend, however I do not support the current management. If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound.[/quote]
I don't sound stupid. But you comments previously did.[/quote] Don't forget to fit the Damage Control II, it seems like you need it now more than ever.[/quote]
Oh dear! This ****** has placed a 5M bounty on me! See what happens now! Is this the way children play?[/quote]
There you go, 50M... I can escalate further.[/quote]
You know what, I thought this should make you really happy, I have added another 300M. |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:41:00 -
[640] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2589404#post2589404 is where I answeared to your concerns. Please this carefully.
thank you for that, however this means that you get one racial BC skills at level 5. What about the rest? I can fly all BCs at level 5 now. |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 19:50:00 -
[641] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2589404#post2589404 is where I answeared to your concerns. Please this carefully. thank you for that, however this means that you get one racial BC skills at level 5. What about the rest? I can fly all BCs at level 5 now.
// It is noteworthy to point out that if you donGÇÖt have a racial Cruiser at 3, then you wonGÇÖt receive the corresponding racial Battlecruiser skill. It is thus worthwhile to train all Racial Cruiser skill at 3, then focus on maximizing Battlecruisers before the reimbursement happens. //
This part is especially for you: It tells you to train all racial cruiser to 3 in order to get all battlecruiser skills.
If you honestly don't understand that from the devblog, all that's left for me is to ask you to voice concerns in a more productive (and nice) behavior next time around. You will get less annoyed answears then. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3804
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:01:00 -
[642] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:You know what, I thought this should make you really happy, I have added another 300M.
Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:07:00 -
[643] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:You know what, I thought this should make you really happy, I have added another 300M.
Now bounty: 338,322,891 ISK. Yes, I just received a message from Concord that someone has claimed 11M... |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:08:00 -
[644] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:You know what, I thought this should make you really happy, I have added another 300M. Now bounty: 338,322,891 ISK. Yes, I just received a message from Concord that someone has claimed 11M...
I will be monitoring the progress. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3806
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:24:00 -
[645] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:You know what, I thought this should make you really happy, I have added another 300M. Now bounty: 338,322,891 ISK. Yes, I just received a message from Concord that someone has claimed 11M... I can assure you that had nothing to do with my bounty. Honestly you just seemed like the type to get angry over even a small bounty amount. Judging by you dumping 350 million isk on mine it would seem I succeeded. :P Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ubat Batuk
Real Simple Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:26:00 -
[646] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2589404#post2589404 is where I answeared to your concerns. Please this carefully. thank you for that, however this means that you get one racial BC skills at level 5. What about the rest? I can fly all BCs at level 5 now. // It is noteworthy to point out that if you donGÇÖt have a racial Cruiser at 3, then you wonGÇÖt receive the corresponding racial Battlecruiser skill. It is thus worthwhile to train all Racial Cruiser skill at 3, then focus on maximizing Battlecruisers before the reimbursement happens. // This part is especially for you: It tells you to train all racial cruiser to 3 in order to get all battlecruiser skills. If you honestly don't understand that from the devblog, all that's left for me is to ask you to voice concerns in a more productive (and nice) behavior next time around. You will get less annoyed answears then.
OK, many thanks for this. I really appreciate your time and effort to help. I hope you are right and for now I am going to stick to your explanation. Are you saying that my posts are disrespectful? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:39:00 -
[647] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:OK, many thanks for this. I really appreciate your time and effort to help. I hope you are right and for now I am going to stick to your explanation. Are you saying that my posts are disrespectful?
Well, I do not want to judge on that. All I can say is, that the notions you made towards CCP tripped me off personaly, especially since they were based on a false understanding on your part.
I mean I like how passionate players are towards their games - which holds true for EVE more than any other MMO I have seen so far - but resorting to insults towards a company producing my beloved game, gets me to the edge. |
DancesWithVeldspar
Raven's Toy Production
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:45:00 -
[648] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It was quite clear to me and several other people.
Just because you had trouble understanding it doesn't mean it wasn't well written. That is interesting. Let's see how many people get it. My point stands. I got it first time. CCP knew your question would be the biggest concern and were prepared as far back as March 2012 with the answer. This hasn't changed in any of the updates since.
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: If you had actually bothered reading the dev blog or any of the pages of this thread you would have realized just how stupid you sound.
I don't sound stupid. Oh yes you do!
|
DancesWithVeldspar
Raven's Toy Production
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:45:00 -
[649] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Don't forget to fit the Damage Control II, it seems like you need it now more than ever. I use all low slots for DPS, maybe you are the one who needs it. You need to start adding a few Co-processors. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Nulli Secunda
89
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:53:00 -
[650] - Quote
Let me tell you a story about a boy that wanted to become a titan pilot:
Initial Skillplan (broad outline)
- Naglfar (to get some use out of the character while it trains)
- Ragnarok
Initially planned amount of SP that have nothing to do with what he wanted to do with those 2 ships:
- 0 SP
Initial plan, adjusted for reality:
- 90,510 SP: Electronic Warfare IV; requirement for Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing (+Drone Control Range)
- 1,415 SP: Mining II; although the skillbook is sold on the market, every character has it and you can not petition to have it removed, I tried
- 768,000 SP: Astrometrics 5; requirement for Jump Portal Generation
Total: 859,925; not too bad really. Hardly any deadweight
Additional deadweight skillpoints from the last sets of ship changes:
- 2,878,120 SP: everything he has in Drones, since none of the two ships the character has specialized for can use them anymore
New total: 3,738,045
Additional deadweight skillpoints from the announced ship changes:
- Minmatar Battleship IV+V: 1,984,000 SP
- Minmatar Cruiser IV: 186,275 SP
- Minmatar Frigate IV: 74,510 SP
New total: 5,982,830
Skillpoints the character has to spend if he wants to be "officially" able to fly the two ships again (cosmetic "skills-check all green" and to avoid "how can you sit in that ship, your skillsheet says you do not have all required skills" discussions):
- Minmatar Destroyer I-III: 16,000
- Minmatar Battlecruiser I-III: 48,000
New total: 6,046,830
At currently around 68.8m SP, that's 8.78% of the skillpoint total (will be a bit less at the time the change actually hits). That makes me sad.
That said, I like the changes in general, they need to happen, I just wish the migration path was less bumpy. But I can understand that it is just not feasible to have a lenghty discussion with every player why a specific skill was trained for every character and if it is no longer necessary and/or should be reimbursed.
One change that stood out for me though was the addition of the Industrial Core I module as requirement for the Rorqual. Please have your statistics department check how many characters can currently fly Rorqual, but do not have that skill. It is quite frequently used simply as a big hauler of things that has fittings.
Adding the Core module adds a lot of production skills as requirements. And while adding this "Industrial Siege" module may seem analogue to adding the actual siege module as a requirement for dreadnoughts, this is a false friend. After all, the triage skill was not added as a requirement for carriers.
This is, by the way, still the only module that has a tech 2 ship skill as requirement (Logistics 5). |
|
Ubat Batuk
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 21:31:00 -
[651] - Quote
DancesWithVeldspar wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Don't forget to fit the Damage Control II, it seems like you need it now more than ever. I use all low slots for DPS, maybe you are the one who needs it. You need to start adding a few Co-processors.
I give a +1 because it made me smile. |
Ubat Batuk
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 21:40:00 -
[652] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:OK, many thanks for this. I really appreciate your time and effort to help. I hope you are right and for now I am going to stick to your explanation. Are you saying that my posts are disrespectful? Well, I do not want to judge on that. All I can say is, that the notions you made towards CCP tripped me off personaly, especially since they were based on a false understanding on your part. I mean I like how passionate players are towards their games - which holds true for EVE more than any other MMO I have seen so far - but resorting to insults towards a company producing my beloved game, gets me to the edge.
I am really glad that this will be addressed in the proper way so that is a big +1 for CCP. Well done to all. |
Firia O'Flame
Order of the Grue
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:33:00 -
[653] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Destroyers and Battlecruisers, please fill your reimbursement form
The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.
I just want to be clear; I know you were using amarr as an example. Will I also get Gallente BC5, Minmatar BC5, and caldari BC5 for having my current skill at BC5?
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
142
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:53:00 -
[654] - Quote
Firia O'Flame wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:Destroyers and Battlecruisers, please fill your reimbursement form
The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.
I just want to be clear; I know you were using amarr as an example. Will I also get Gallente BC5, Minmatar BC5, and caldari BC5 for having my current skill at BC5? If you have the required racial Cruisers at III. The quick way to check is attempt to get into Gallente, Minmatar & Caldari BC's right now. If you can get in them, and you have BC V, you will get the racial BC V. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:53:00 -
[655] - Quote
Firia O'Flame wrote:CCP Gargant wrote:Destroyers and Battlecruisers, please fill your reimbursement form
The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.
I just want to be clear; I know you were using amarr as an example. Will I also get Gallente BC5, Minmatar BC5, and caldari BC5 for having my current skill at BC5?
You could have just read this site of the comments at least.
As clarified many many times in this thread, you get the racial BC skills at your current BC level, if you have the corresponding cruiser skill to 3.
That means if you have Amarr cruiser 3, Caldari cruiser 3, Gallente cruiser 3 and Minmatar cruiser 3, in your case you will get ALL four racial BC skills at level 5. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 01:03:00 -
[656] - Quote
Just a suggestion - but I would like to see CCP putting a summary of any FAQ or questions that aren't covered in the blog in the FRONT FEW POSTS! I would love to say I've read the lot looking for my answers, but I got as far as page 19 and gave up at that point - CCP were going to get back to us regarding:
skiling up a pre-injected, and few-levels-trained skill for those who don't have the new pre-reqs
eg: command ships at III before update, Cal cruiser at V, HAS at IV, logi at IV; can fly any Cal Command ship Don't have warfare doctrines to V (let's say I've not even injected armoured warfare) will I be able to train command ships from III to IV after the update?
DISCLAIMER:
I am NOT talking about injecting a skill after the changeover I am NOT talking about physically flying any of the ships
CCP - please put this at the beginning of the thread
EDIT: thank you CCP |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3811
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 01:42:00 -
[657] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:skiling up a pre-injected, and few-levels-trained skill for those who don't have the new pre-reqs You will be able to, yes. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
BEPOHNKA
Legions Force
29
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 03:26:00 -
[658] - Quote
GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥
So not need to worry about changes of ships we can fly now than . Only effect players after who try and train so why the return on skill points as you clear said with the above statement. |
Bubbleboylol
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 06:42:00 -
[659] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.
Correct. that is cool training after the prereq are met but that wont help the ship at all if i'm reading it right so it's like a false sense of security? |
Dan' Ehr
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 06:44:00 -
[660] - Quote
You do this without coughing up the skill point difference, I will pod you; you do this and take away ship commands we already possess, I will pod you twice. I demand you cover and compensate older players who have given so much, without who's support these past years you would have no game to change to suit newer players. I agree that these changes provide a streamlined cleanliness, but don't make all the time and effort your benefactors have put into this game for so long amount to waste. |
|
Bubbleboylol
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 06:56:00 -
[661] - Quote
Dan' Ehr wrote:You do this without coughing up the skill point difference, I will pod you; you do this and take away ship commands we already possess, I will pod you twice. I demand you cover and compensate older players who have given so much, without who's support these past years you would have no game to change to suit newer players. I agree that these changes provide a streamlined cleanliness, but don't make all the time and effort your benefactors have put into this game for so long amount to waste.
That always seems to be the case..... they always forget who and what gave them so much.. they always **** on the people, I love this game but it's slowly getting "streamlined" till it is so streamlined that there is no bumps left to overcome...... |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
145
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 08:21:00 -
[662] - Quote
Bubbleboylol wrote:Dan' Ehr wrote:You do this without coughing up the skill point difference, I will pod you; you do this and take away ship commands we already possess, I will pod you twice. I demand you cover and compensate older players who have given so much, without who's support these past years you would have no game to change to suit newer players. I agree that these changes provide a streamlined cleanliness, but don't make all the time and effort your benefactors have put into this game for so long amount to waste. That always seems to be the case..... they always forget who and what gave them so much.. they always **** on the people, I love this game but it's slowly getting "streamlined" till it is so streamlined that there is no bumps left to overcome......
Uh, I think you guys are missing something..... Like....
The fact you can still train any skill you already have. And the fact you can fly any ship you have the skill for.
The 'pre-requisits' are only needed to inject the skill. So there is no 'Taking away' of anything. Only gaining. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3812
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 09:13:00 -
[663] - Quote
Bubbleboylol wrote:Radius Prime wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer. [/list]
When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog. Correct. that is cool training after the prereq are met but that wont help the ship at all if i'm reading it right so it's like a false sense of security? What are you even talking about? Of course it will help the ship, that's what skill bonuses do... Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Bubbleboylol
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 09:51:00 -
[664] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bubbleboylol wrote:[quote=Dan' Ehr]You do this without coughing up the skill point difference, I will pod you; you do this and take away ship commands we already possess, I will pod you twice. I demand you cover and compensate older players who have given so much, without who's support these past years you would have no game to change to suit newer players. I agree that these changes provide a streamlined cleanliness, but don't make all the time and effort your benefactors have put into this game for so long amount to waste. That always seems to be the case..... they always forget who and what gave them so much.. they always **** on the people, I love this game but it's slowly getting "streamlined" till it is so streamlined that there is no bumps left to overcome......
"The fact you can still train any skill you already have. And the fact you can fly any ship you have the skill for."
lol, but then what is the point of training the skill for something that does not need it? the whole point is that they are starting to give things and make things easier for all the people complaining that they have to do some work and have some patience, all the while doing that they screwed up the ship skills by giving shortcuts. Now they have to change all the ship skills to follow along with the shortcuts because people are getting ahead faster then the originally great planned out skill set. you follow? |
Ubat Batuk
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:21:00 -
[665] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:You know what, I thought this should make you really happy, I have added another 300M. Now bounty: 338,322,891 ISK. Yes, I just received a message from Concord that someone has claimed 11M... I can assure you that had nothing to do with my bounty. Honestly you just seemed like the type to get angry over even a small bounty amount. Judging by you dumping 350 million isk on mine it would seem I succeeded. :P
I don't think so, you have placed a bounty on me for no reason, just because you didn't like my response in the forum. What if you knew my real credentials, would you stalk me in real life?
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:24:00 -
[666] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2589404#post2589404 is where I answeared to your concerns. Please this carefully. thank you for that, however this means that you get one racial BC skills at level 5. What about the rest? I can fly all BCs at level 5 now. // It is noteworthy to point out that if you donGÇÖt have a racial Cruiser at 3, then you wonGÇÖt receive the corresponding racial Battlecruiser skill. It is thus worthwhile to train all Racial Cruiser skill at 3, then focus on maximizing Battlecruisers before the reimbursement happens. // This part is especially for you: It tells you to train all racial cruiser to 3 in order to get all battlecruiser skills. If you honestly don't understand that from the devblog, all that's left for me is to ask you to voice concerns in a more productive (and nice) behavior next time around. You will get less annoyed answears then. OK, many thanks for this. I really appreciate your time and effort to help. I hope you are right and for now I am going to stick to your explanation. Are you saying that my posts are disrespectful?
I think (hope) she's trying to say your posts are both, dumb and disrespectful.And even if she didn't, I'll volunteer.
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:32:00 -
[667] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:J I would love to say I've read the lot looking for my answers, but I got as far as page 19 and gave up at that point - CCP were going to get back to us regarding:
You realize that at EVERY CCP post there is that BLUE arrow, which when you click it takes you to the NEXT CCP answer (if such exists)? Just a few clicks would have taken you to your answer, and it would surely not have taken as long as browsing 19 pages. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3814
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:36:00 -
[668] - Quote
Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ubat Batuk wrote:You know what, I thought this should make you really happy, I have added another 300M. Now bounty: 338,322,891 ISK. Yes, I just received a message from Concord that someone has claimed 11M... I can assure you that had nothing to do with my bounty. Honestly you just seemed like the type to get angry over even a small bounty amount. Judging by you dumping 350 million isk on mine it would seem I succeeded. :P I don't think so, you have placed a bounty on me for no reason, just because you didn't like my response in the forum. What if you knew my real credentials, would you stalk me in real life? Of course not. I just felt you deserved a little trolling, as it were. I have no desire to do you or anyone else any kind of worldly harm, physical or psychological. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:48:00 -
[669] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I would love to say I've read the lot looking for my answers, but I got as far as page 19 and gave up at that point - CCP were going to get back to us regarding:
You realize that at EVERY CCP post there is that BLUE arrow, which when you click it takes you to the NEXT CCP answer (if such exists)? Just a few clicks would have taken you to your answer, and it would surely not have taken as long as browsing 19 pages.
VERY NICE! I did not know that. That's awesome! |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:53:00 -
[670] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Of course not. I just felt you deserved a little trolling, as it were. I have no desire to do you or anyone else any kind of worldly harm, physical or psychological.
You're a saint.
After being subjected to so much stupidity i DO feel a certain desire to do the offender some minor physical or psychological harm, comparable to the pain inflicted to me. Being civilized, I'm just suppressing that desire. |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:56:00 -
[671] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: Of course not. I just felt you deserved a little trolling, as it were. I have no desire to do you or anyone else any kind of worldly harm, physical or psychological.
You're a saint. After being subjected to so much stupidity i DO feel a certain desire to do the offender some minor physical or psychological harm, comparable to the pain inflicted to me. Being civilized, I'm just suppressing that desire.
I would like to ask you both nicely to get back to topic. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 11:48:00 -
[672] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I would love to say I've read the lot looking for my answers, but I got as far as page 19 and gave up at that point - CCP were going to get back to us regarding:
You realize that at EVERY CCP post there is that BLUE arrow, which when you click it takes you to the NEXT CCP answer (if such exists)? Just a few clicks would have taken you to your answer, and it would surely not have taken as long as browsing 19 pages.
actually, no, I didn't know that, feel like a right prat now... |
Alec Freeman
The Dark Space Initiative
231
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 12:59:00 -
[673] - Quote
Changes look great. My only major concern is the battleship skill for the capitals, I really wish it would stay as level 5 requirement (even WITH the other changes). By removing the level 5 requirment your pretty much removing the sub-par capitals from the battlefield because it will now be so easy to crosstrain into the best ones, no more nidhoggurs :[.
With battleships 5 and the other jump skills as capital pre-reqs it really makes them a little more special once you get into them. It also cuts down on the "I can sit in the ship but cant fly it for another 2 months" feeling you get well training your first cap. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 13:44:00 -
[674] - Quote
Flying Apocalypse wrote:I am amazed ccp even reads these forums anymore...Or haven't sold their brains yet...I am definitly considering selling mine after following this thread since the blog released. The dev blog is pretty clear(Sure it has some vague points, but all of that has been answered by devs) If you got the skills to fly a ship right now, you can fly it after the change and can still train the relevant ship skill up even if you no longer have the prerequisited skills.(As long as you got the skill injected you can train it) The Command Ship changes are for the NORMAL boosting skills, NOT the LINKS. So as a boosting character, you should have them anyway. They will be rebalancing the industrials, so don't be too worried about the Iteron's till atleast a month before release since we have no idea what they will consist of once tiericide hits. And it was your choice to train for a capital with the current skill prereqs, you can now fly it so why do you even care if that changes? It wont affect you anymore since you can already fly your capital. And if you ever step inside a shiny BS once again, you will be glad with that lvl 5 skill I'm sure. I'm not saying that the prereqs for carriers are perfect with what CCP has in mind. But just raging about it won't help, give some real feedback about it.
If you awnser on parts of my feedback, i would prefer, that you don-¦t mix it up with statements of other people or quote it correctly, thank you. |
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 14:10:00 -
[675] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Nightlund Audeles wrote:Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca. Nope, sorry Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh.
Well ... ****** ****** ****** ***** ****** ***** your smile. i trained that skill as a prereq for something else. It toke time. Time is money. GIVE IT BACK! |
Ser'kele
Loco Druid's
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 14:22:00 -
[676] - Quote
Quick question (not complaining)
Right now I am 17 days away from flying Astarte (according to evemon)
After the change I will be 42 days away (using my bonus remap) with the requirement of:
Skirmish Warfare V Information Warfare V Armored Warfare V Siege Warfare V Warfare Link Specialist IV Leadership V
These are the remaining skills I lack from flying Astarte:
Leadership V Warefare Link Specialist IV Command Ships I Assault Ships IV Heavy Assault Ships IV
Do I have time to finish off the remaining skills to get to Astarte? or should I just use my remap now for the booster skills and start training those up?
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 14:26:00 -
[677] - Quote
Ser'kele wrote:Quick question (not complaining) - sorry edited once more without using neural remaps
Right now I am 22 days away from flying Astarte (according to evemon) (17 using a remap)
After the change I will be 42 days away (using my bonus remap) (59 without using my remap) with the requirement of:
Skirmish Warfare V Information Warfare V Armored Warfare V Siege Warfare V Warfare Link Specialist IV Leadership V
These are the remaining skills I lack from flying Astarte:
Leadership V Warefare Link Specialist IV Command Ships I Assault Ships IV Heavy Assault Ships IV
Do I have time to finish off the remaining skills to get to Astarte? or should I just use my remap now for the booster skills and start training those up?
No, finish the 17 days (and inject the command ships skill) before changes hit and you are golden. |
Cytherion
Critical Strike
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 14:49:00 -
[678] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:. So if you inject the command ships skill before the changes you "skip" around the requirements of those leadership skills. On the other hand if you feel you do not want the Assault Frigate and Heavy Assault Cruiser skills AND want to train the fleetboost skills anyway AND don't feel pressured to fly the Astarte in the near future (yet unknown changes to command ships are looming anyway), you can start training the boosting skills already and just wait for patchday in summer (no specific date yet as far as I know) to inject command ships skill. At the moment we are in the lucky position to have freedom to choose what skills we want. Nice, right?
command ships V, long time ago, does that mean I don't have to worry about a thing?
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 14:59:00 -
[679] - Quote
Cytherion wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:. So if you inject the command ships skill before the changes you "skip" around the requirements of those leadership skills. On the other hand if you feel you do not want the Assault Frigate and Heavy Assault Cruiser skills AND want to train the fleetboost skills anyway AND don't feel pressured to fly the Astarte in the near future (yet unknown changes to command ships are looming anyway), you can start training the boosting skills already and just wait for patchday in summer (no specific date yet as far as I know) to inject command ships skill. At the moment we are in the lucky position to have freedom to choose what skills we want. Nice, right? command ships V, long time ago, does that mean I don't have to worry about a thing?
Yes. You won't be getting the new prereqs for the command ships skill, but you will still be able to fly it as always and even if it was not lvl 5 you would still be able to skill it to 5 even without the new prereqs. This goes for all other ships as well. |
Cytherion
Critical Strike
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 15:02:00 -
[680] - Quote
Bubbleboylol wrote:Dan' Ehr wrote:. I demand you cover and compensate older players who have given so much, without who's support these past years you would have no game to change to suit newer players. I agree that these changes provide a streamlined cleanliness, but don't make all the time and effort your benefactors have put into this game for so long amount to waste. That always seems to be the case..... they always forget who and what gave them so much.. they always **** on the people, I love this game but it's slowly getting "streamlined" till it is so streamlined that there is no bumps left to overcome......
bored CCP devs need something to do right? Changes are inevitable...
games nowadays are so fickle to changes that the essence of a pure honest game has now evaporated. You just cant have the same "emotional bond" with one game anymore.
I employ a "use and throw" tactic.. change **** too much for no rhyme or reason? np plenty of other games out there.
moral of the story: dont get attached to any game you play, sooner or later the devs find ways to screw it all up.
Eve was one game that I respected the stability and the consistency. Heck I used to log in after several months, i trusted them with my time invested. Whether or not that faith will be shaken, only time will tell.
Again, plenty of fish in the sea..
|
|
Ser'kele
Loco Druid's
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 15:03:00 -
[681] - Quote
Thanks a bunch. That is cool. So i'll focus on getting Leadership V, Warfare Link Specialist IV, inject command ships skillbook (atleast train to I for safe measure) then i'm golden.
And since they removed the Cruiser V racial requirements for each command ship and replaced it with a Racial BCV skill i'll be pretty much set to fly every command ship because I just finished BCV, racial frig IV, racial cruiser IV.. right?
Savira Terrant wrote:Ser'kele wrote:Quick question (not complaining) - sorry edited once more without using neural remaps
Right now I am 22 days away from flying Astarte (according to evemon) (17 using a remap)
After the change I will be 42 days away (using my bonus remap) (59 without using my remap) with the requirement of:
Skirmish Warfare V Information Warfare V Armored Warfare V Siege Warfare V Warfare Link Specialist IV Leadership V
These are the remaining skills I lack from flying Astarte:
Leadership V Warefare Link Specialist IV Command Ships I Assault Ships IV Heavy Assault Ships IV
Do I have time to finish off the remaining skills to get to Astarte? or should I just use my remap now for the booster skills and start training those up? No, finish the 17 days (and inject the command ships skill) before changes hit and you are golden. Explanation: In the future prereqs are only checked for injecting skillbooks. So if you inject the command ships skill before the changes you "skip" around the requirements of those leadership skills. On the other hand if you feel you do not want the Assault Frigate and Heavy Assault Cruiser skills AND want to train the fleetboost skills anyway AND don't feel pressured to fly the Astarte in the near future (yet unknown changes to command ships are looming anyway), you can start training the boosting skills already and just wait for patchday in summer (no specific date yet as far as I know) to inject command ships skill. At the moment we are in the lucky position to have freedom to choose what skills we want. Nice, right?
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 15:12:00 -
[682] - Quote
Ser'kele wrote:Thanks a bunch. That is cool. So i'll focus on getting Leadership V, Warfare Link Specialist IV, inject command ships skillbook (atleast train to I for safe measure) then i'm golden.
And since they removed the Cruiser V racial requirements for each command ship and replaced it with a Racial BCV skill i'll be pretty much set to fly every command ship because I just finished BCV, racial frig IV, racial cruiser IV.. right?
That is correct. |
Ser'kele
Loco Druid's
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 15:23:00 -
[683] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Ser'kele wrote:Thanks a bunch. That is cool. So i'll focus on getting Leadership V, Warfare Link Specialist IV, inject command ships skillbook (atleast train to I for safe measure) then i'm golden.
And since they removed the Cruiser V racial requirements for each command ship and replaced it with a Racial BCV skill i'll be pretty much set to fly every command ship because I just finished BCV, racial frig IV, racial cruiser IV.. right? That is correct if you meant that you finished ALL racial cruisers to 3.
Right. That's what i mean. :)
|
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
179
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 17:02:00 -
[684] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bubbleboylol wrote:Dan' Ehr wrote:You do this without coughing up the skill point difference, I will pod you; you do this and take away ship commands we already possess, I will pod you twice. I demand you cover and compensate older players who have given so much, without who's support these past years you would have no game to change to suit newer players. I agree that these changes provide a streamlined cleanliness, but don't make all the time and effort your benefactors have put into this game for so long amount to waste. That always seems to be the case..... they always forget who and what gave them so much.. they always **** on the people, I love this game but it's slowly getting "streamlined" till it is so streamlined that there is no bumps left to overcome...... Uh, I think you guys are missing something..... Like.... The fact you can still train any skill you already have. And the fact you can fly any ship you have the skill for. The 'pre-requisits' are only needed to inject the skill. So there is no 'Taking away' of anything. Only gaining.
You're talking to bittervets that think injecting logic into the current system is the same thing as casualizing. There's no reasoning with some people.
|
Zana Rotineque
Ibeia Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 17:27:00 -
[685] - Quote
i was looking at the ship skill changes and noticed the Providence changes advanced spaceship command lvl1 and will require lvl 5 now, so i have only lvl 2 so does that mean after the changes i wont beable to fly my Feniri unless i train to lvl 5? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 17:38:00 -
[686] - Quote
Zana Rotineque wrote:i was looking at the ship skill changes and noticed the Providence changes advanced spaceship command lvl1 and will require lvl 5 now, so i have only lvl 2 so does that mean after the changes i wont beable to fly my Feniri unless i train to lvl 5?
No. You will still be able to fly your already trained Fenrir as per normal. In the Devblog it is explained that you will be able to fly after the patch, what you could fly before. And they will also change it so you will be able to advance the Fenrir skill without meeting the requirements for it, as long as you had it injected before the patch.
And they flew their Fenrirs happily until they were podkilled. |
Zintex
NERV Reborn The Predictables
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 18:21:00 -
[687] - Quote
as i have looked mostly on the Rorqual ship skills i see that there is some new skill added to there required skill list and i'm talking about the : ORE Industrial 3 , Mass Production 5 , Advanced Mass Production 4 , and Industrial Reconfiguration 1
and the Orca will be needing the : ORE Industrial 3
as i can fly the Rorqual now i assume i will get the now required skill aswell and not just the new destroyer and battlecruiser skills :)
hope someone can give me some info in this matter as it will be nice to know :) |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 18:28:00 -
[688] - Quote
Zintex wrote:as i have looked mostly on the Rorqual ship skills i see that there is some new skill added to there required skill list and i'm talking about the : ORE Industrial 3 , Mass Production 5 , Advanced Mass Production 4 , and Industrial Reconfiguration 1
and the Orca will be needing the : ORE Industrial 3
as i can fly the Rorqual now i assume i will get the now required skill aswell and not just the new destroyer and battlecruiser skills :)
hope someone can give me some info in this matter as it will be nice to know :)
No, you won't get those skills. Instead, you will be flying a Rorqual without the new requirements and be happy with just that.
Edit: I am starting to course you Ytterbium my friend, for putting flashy pictures into the Devblog. No one seems to read the important text of that blog because of those. |
ako ako
I.C.E Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 18:55:00 -
[689] - Quote
I salute the Dev's and players who keep on answering the same question over, and over, and over........
|
Ubat Batuk
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:07:00 -
[690] - Quote
if only you made it clear in the blog people would not have to come here and ask over and over. My 2 cents... |
|
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
179
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:08:00 -
[691] - Quote
ako ako wrote:I salute the Dev's and players who keep on answering the same question over, and over, and over........
The devs could have just locked this thread, deleted it, and made a new sticky answering the question, and kept that sticky locked down as well so the giant message answering that question is the first and only thing anyone sees. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:11:00 -
[692] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:ako ako wrote:I salute the Dev's and players who keep on answering the same question over, and over, and over........
The devs could have just locked this thread, deleted it, and made a new sticky answering the question, and kept that sticky locked down as well so the giant message answering that question is the first and only thing anyone sees.
But that would defeat the purpose of this thread, would it not? |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
179
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:12:00 -
[693] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Inkarr Hashur wrote:ako ako wrote:I salute the Dev's and players who keep on answering the same question over, and over, and over........
The devs could have just locked this thread, deleted it, and made a new sticky answering the question, and kept that sticky locked down as well so the giant message answering that question is the first and only thing anyone sees. But that would defeat the purpose of this thread, would it not?
It seems this thread is being used for QA of the same Q. In which case the thread's purpose isn't being fulfilled. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:21:00 -
[694] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:It seems this thread is being used for QA of the same Q. In which case the thread's purpose isn't being fulfilled.
Well, beside this thread being used to becalm our precious co-players *ahem*, we are also asked to give feedback - favorably in a calm and constructive manner. |
Felicia Xavian
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:54:00 -
[695] - Quote
Perhaps I only want one Battle cruiser skill (edit) or maybe none at all - and I qualify for getting all four race BC's. I have a certain amount of skill points that I want to stay under and maybe the other race BC's will be nothing to me but a clone upgrade burden that I wish not to bare for the duration of my eve career.
This is not the first time that my training has led to be subverted by game-play changes which not only costs me game time to train in vain. My PvP toon only trained BC and Command ship to give bonuses to mining alts that funded him or her ... which was the only way they could before the Orca arrived which by the way arrived just before him or here got the mining leadership skills that were needed to give the bonuses. Which... completely wasted ALOT of my toons TIME (=money) and a continued burden of a substantial higher clone cost.
Now you are telling me that in addition to this waste, I will now be burdened for this SOLO PvP toon 3 additional lvl 5 BC skill points.
It would be nice, CCP if you could find it in your heart to AT LEAST have an option to delete unwanted skills ( a mind wipe) especially when you screw with the entire planning of a toon in such a long-term game as EvE.
It is do-able, and fair. Your changes cant simply be compensated by here ya go refund of some skill points and suck it up on planning your character. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 20:16:00 -
[696] - Quote
Felicia Xavian wrote:Perhaps I only want one Battle cruiser skill (edit) or maybe none at all - and I qualify for getting all four race BC's. I have a certain amount of skill points that I want to stay under and maybe the other race BC's will be nothing to me but a clone upgrade burden that I wish not to bare for the duration of my eve career.
This is not the first time that my training has led to be subverted by game-play changes which not only costs me game time to train in vain. My PvP toon only trained BC and Command ship to give bonuses to mining alts that funded him or her ... which was the only way they could before the Orca arrived which by the way arrived just before him or here got the mining leadership skills that were needed to give the bonuses. Which... completely wasted ALOT of my toons TIME (=money) and a continued burden of a substantial higher clone cost.
Now you are telling me that in addition to this waste, I will now be burdened for this SOLO PvP toon 3 additional lvl 5 BC skill points.
It would be nice, CCP if you could find it in your heart to AT LEAST have an option to delete unwanted skills ( a mind wipe) especially when you screw with the entire planning of a toon in such a long-term game as EvE.
It is do-able, and fair. Your changes cant simply be compensated by here ya go refund of some skill points and suck it up on planning your character.
I don't even get what you want. First you say too many skillpoints are a burden, and next thing you want a skillpoint refund? That sounds contradicting to me... |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
179
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 20:22:00 -
[697] - Quote
Felicia Xavian wrote:Perhaps I only want one Battle cruiser skill (edit) or maybe none at all - and I qualify for getting all four race BC's. I have a certain amount of skill points that I want to stay under and maybe the other race BC's will be nothing to me but a clone upgrade burden that I wish not to bare for the duration of my eve career.
This is not the first time that my training has led to be subverted by game-play changes which not only costs me game time to train in vain. My PvP toon only trained BC and Command ship to give bonuses to mining alts that funded him or her ... which was the only way they could before the Orca arrived which by the way arrived just before him or here got the mining leadership skills that were needed to give the bonuses. Which... completely wasted ALOT of my toons TIME (=money) and a continued burden of a substantial higher clone cost.
Now you are telling me that in addition to this waste, I will now be burdened for this SOLO PvP toon 3 additional lvl 5 BC skill points.
It would be nice, CCP if you could find it in your heart to AT LEAST have an option to delete unwanted skills ( a mind wipe) especially when you screw with the entire planning of a toon in such a long-term game as EvE.
It is do-able, and fair. Your changes cant simply be compensated by here ya go refund of some skill points and suck it up on planning your character.
I think I get your issue, and I sympathize, but CCP doesn't seem to want to be doing this on a case-by-case basis. So the simplest and most logical way to handle the SP issue is what they're currently doing. If you're unhappy with it because of clone costs, then that's just on you. An option to simply delete skills you don't want to lower clone costs would be excellent though.
The "wasted SP" argument doesn't hold water though. A year or two ago you certainly seemed to think the Command Ship was worth training even if you needed a lot of "wasted time" to get there. You thought it was ok at the time, and it doesn't suddenly stop being ok just because they removed it later. |
Felicia Xavian
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 20:24:00 -
[698] - Quote
Quote:I don't even get what you want. First you say too many skillpoints are a burden, and next thing you want a skillpoint refund? That sounds contradicting to me...
A refund would be nice but I would at least enjoy removal of skills trained for a purpose that was moved to a different ship... read more slowly...
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 20:40:00 -
[699] - Quote
Felicia Xavian wrote:A refund would be nice but I would at least enjoy removal of skills trained for a purpose that was moved to a different ship... read more slowly...
Ah, so you are asking for removal of skillpoints without recompensation (at least). Well, quite the unorthodox request in my believe. Interesting to say the least. Mh, one could polish one's character sheet and get rid of the mining skills - what the hell was I thinking back then?!
If it's only for the clone costs, I think you are better off lobbying for another issue brought to my attention by CCP Fozzie with this post. |
Felicia Xavian
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 20:42:00 -
[700] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:The "wasted SP" argument doesn't hold water though. A year or two ago you certainly seemed to think the Command Ship was worth training even if you needed a lot of "wasted time" to get there. You thought it was ok at the time, and it doesn't suddenly stop being ok just because they removed it later. .
The training and planning for my solo PvP had nothing to do with command ships. i had miners to fund them... but wait, i can have my PvP account help my miners by givving bonuses with BC's and command ships... seemed right so I started my journey of training for it since he or she was closest to BC and command it seemed a wast to train a new toon for the task... so BC 1-2-3 and now for the mining bonuses mining foreman V leadership V then mining director... and so I end up with a solo PvP toon that has all that and also the module fell under the Skirmish Warefare catagory at the time.. which was 4 more lvles that wern't needed... tada... orca appeard, modules changed and I gotta swallow it whole like i like it... perhaps it is a perspective.... try to see it from here.
|
|
Felicia Xavian
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 21:01:00 -
[701] - Quote
if I could, I would delete all the skills for BC and Command and the skills that support it without compensation, as it is unused and a burden... except what is necessary for the next higher tier. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3822
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 21:04:00 -
[702] - Quote
If I could, I would just fix clone costs so that this is a non-issue. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Felicia Xavian
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 21:06:00 -
[703] - Quote
that is an easier answer but a harder solution. Any ideas? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 21:24:00 -
[704] - Quote
Felicia Xavian wrote:The training and planning for my solo PvP had nothing to do with command ships. i had miners to fund them... but wait, i can have my PvP account help my miners by givving bonuses with BC's and command ships... seemed right so I started my journey of training for it since he or she was closest to BC and command it seemed a wast to train a new toon for the task... so BC 1-2-3 and now for the mining bonuses mining foreman V leadership V then mining director... and so I end up with a solo PvP toon that has all that and also the module fell under the Skirmish Warefare catagory at the time.. which was 4 more lvles that wern't needed... tada... orca appeard, modules changed and I gotta swallow it whole like i like it... perhaps it is a perspective.... try to see it from here.
I can see now where you are comming from. Basicly, when the circumstances for skills change that drasticly it would seem only fair to reset spent skillpoints in some form or another to allow players to fit their chars back to the purpose they intended them to be for. This is also done regularly in other parts of the MMO industry. CCP themselves are encouraging us to build altchars with regular cheap offers for just that purpose, acknowlaging the need for specialised altchars. They go even further and rebuild the whole skill related gameplay to allow for better specialization into any given role (not just for new players, but also for altchars).
Given all that, CCP's reluctance to do a reset does not seem quite understandable. Especially from those of us who played the game so long and/or have those specialised altchars. I give CCP - or in this case CCP Foozie who I am reffering to here - that e.g. battleship 5 is still a usefull skill. That does not change the fact that we might have skilled battleship 5 for quite a different purpose (e.g. a requirement for our capital character). The pretext of a large amount of skills will change with the summer expansion!
I sympathize with you on that, now that I thought about it a bit more deeply and I think the best course of fairness would actually be to reset the whole thing for once.
I do understand that CCP does not have the ressources to handle this on a case by case basis, which is why the only thing left without punishing many, many players is to reset all the skillpoints. Yes, some players might use the chance to respec their character, giving up skills for a playstyle they do not prefer, but did skill before they knew that. But which is better, having happy people with chars they want them for or players looking at all those (due to a change) wasted skillpoints - wasted training time - and asking themselves what to ever do with a given skill?
In the end everyone would still have the same amount of SP than before the reset, so noone looses or gains anything in terms of training time. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
179
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 23:42:00 -
[705] - Quote
Complete SP reset is in no way needed if they were just able to implement skillpoint deletion |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 23:52:00 -
[706] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:Complete SP reset is in no way needed if they were just able to implement skillpoint deletion
I believe that only holds true for edge cases, when a player actually wants less skillpoints on his clone. But in most cases we are talking about skillpoints - and thus training time - for skills that get their pretext changed as a requirement for something. Changing that pretext basicly makes a skill useless for a specific purpose. By just removing these skills, players will be reaped off their payd training time. And loose something. Some might be okay with that, I believe most won't. |
NenYim
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:38:00 -
[707] - Quote
i haz a quick question, or 2 :P
1) say i am flying a dread now and i DON'T have 1 of the prerequisites learned, do i or will i need 2 learn said prerequisite to fly my ship again? or is it just the main skill that u need to have so can fly said ship... i ask this is i have alot of ships i can fly now but don't have some of the prerequisites trained up that will be needed come the expansion?
2) if i have the main skill 2 fly said ship now and can fly it now are you going to give me the prerequisite skills when you change them or do i need to learn them before i can fly said ship again
i know both questions are asking close to the same thing but it was the easiest way to ask for me to understand all the changes... if u answer both with one reply that's fine, just so long as i get my god dam thick head around all them changes!
thanks in advance! |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2316
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 06:49:00 -
[708] - Quote
NenYim wrote:i haz a quick question, or 2 :P
1) say i am flying a dread now and i DON'T have 1 of the prerequisites learned, do i or will i need 2 learn said prerequisite to fly my ship again? or is it just the main skill that u need to have so can fly said ship... i ask this is i have alot of ships i can fly now but don't have some of the prerequisites trained up that will be needed come the expansion?
2) if i have the main skill 2 fly said ship now and can fly it now are you going to give me the prerequisite skills when you change them or do i need to learn them before i can fly said ship again
i know both questions are asking close to the same thing but it was the easiest way to ask for me to understand all the changes... if u answer both with one reply that's fine, just so long as i get my god dam thick head around all them changes!
thanks in advance! 1) In this case your best bet is to train your dread skill as much as possible. Once the change happens, you will not be able to train your dread skills any further until you have met the new prerequisites. However, all the bonuses to your dread are going to be based on the dreadnought skill under spaceship command. If you have your dread trained to 5 you can just gellax because you will get a max effective dread w/o those pesky prerequisites. For me, one thing I'll be training is my command ship skill to 5 b/c I don't want to train all of my leardership skills to V.
2) Kind of answered above, but no CCP will not be giving us any of the new prerequisite points. "If you can fly it before you'll be able to fly it after the change". That's what they said. However, since your ship bonuses will be based on the specific spaceship command skill that you have already trained, your ship will be just as effective after the change as it was before. That said, if you want to take it further and continue to train your (I'm guessing) Gallente Dreadnought skill more after the change, you will need to train the prerequisite skills first. tl;dr; no skillpoints will be added to anyone's prerequisite skills.
Now, for a question of my own:
Anyone know WHEN the summer expansion hits? Just planning my day here...
|
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 07:00:00 -
[709] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Nightlund Audeles wrote:Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca. Nope, sorry Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh. Well ... ****** ****** ****** ***** ****** ***** your smile. i trained that skill as a prereq for something else. It toke time. Time is money. GIVE IT BACK!
With the introduction of the orca, CCP used a similar argument, saying that e.g. Gallente Industrials V opens the way to Gallente Freighters and Transport ships, and not caring about the fact that all you are interested is a big ore hauler.
Now, they will try to use it again. However, this time it's not only the haulers who are affected, but alsothe freighter and capital pilots who trained long to achieve there goal. Incontrast to the orca introduction, this is not due to a new ship but the changes in skill requirements. Hence, I'm hoping that more people stand up and fight for the skill points the put into something thats not required any more.
Time is money. GIVE IT BACK! |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2316
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 07:04:00 -
[710] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links... when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need
e.g. vulture will be bonused towards
siege warfare link information warfare links The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist". The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not. Hay I just thought of a potential problem. If someone doesn't have "Logistics" trained to V they can still train command ships. They can only fly half of them right now, but once this change goes live if someone has command ships at V they are going to actually be able to fly all the command ships w/ max bonuses... amiright? You dig what I'm layin' down there?
|
|
McSnarf
EVE University Ivy League
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 07:26:00 -
[711] - Quote
What about skillbooks? Will people be able to choose a dessy skillbook in the SOE Epic Arc?
And should I bet that the generic Battlecruiser Skillbook will be split into 5 (Jovian, even if not public? :) ) but the price will not be reduced to about 1/4? |
Serith Ellecon
Fat Carebear Mining Club High Rollers
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 07:46:00 -
[712] - Quote
For what I can see, there are no ships that will be useable at level 1 of the Capital Ships skill. Would the devs be kind enough to put something there please? Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
98
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 08:47:00 -
[713] - Quote
I had a thorough look at the new skill tree once again, and found a little awkwardness - here, I marked it for you, in the corner. Dont bother correcting it though. It only concerns a small portion of the playerbase. |
ako ako
I.C.E Initiative
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 08:58:00 -
[714] - Quote
NenYim wrote:i haz a quick question, or 2 :P
1) say i am flying a dread now and i DON'T have 1 of the prerequisites learned, do i or will i need 2 learn said prerequisite to fly my ship again? or is it just the main skill that u need to have so can fly said ship... i ask this is i have alot of ships i can fly now but don't have some of the prerequisites trained up that will be needed come the expansion?
thanks in advance!
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alrigh folks, good news. We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. Ex: You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.Hope that's clear - trying my very best
So yes you can fly the ship after without the new prereq and continue to train it |
ako ako
I.C.E Initiative
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 09:11:00 -
[715] - Quote
Gogela wrote: Now, for a question of my own:
Anyone know WHEN the summer expansion hits? Just planning my day here...
CCP RubberBAND wrote: We cannot announce exactly when this is happening. But you have many months yet before this goes live.
CCP dont know yet but previous 'summer' expansions have tended towards late april or late may: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 09:56:00 -
[716] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Hay I just thought of a potential problem. If someone doesn't have "Logistics" trained to V they can still train command ships. They can only fly half of them right now, but once this change goes live if someone has command ships at V they are going to actually be able to fly all the command ships w/ max bonuses... amiright? You dig what I'm layin' down there?
You are correct in your assumption, that if you can fly two command ships now, you will most likely be able to fly all command ships after the change (given you have trained ALL racial cruiser skills to 3).
If that is a problem, remains to be evaluated. Fact is, everytime CCP changes something about skilling or skilltrees, there seems to be a way to game the system to gain either SP or abiities you did not have before. In this case, both.
I stand by my opinion that the course of action with the most fairness involved, is to reset the spent skillpoints without adding additional points to the pool. I would really appreciate to hear arguments from CCP about their reluctance to do such a thing, especially catering to my 'change of pretext argument'. I know they don't have to argue anything with us, but in my opinion feedback can only be constructive, if being catered to by the receiving end of such feedback. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 09:58:00 -
[717] - Quote
Gogela wrote: 1) In this case your best bet is to train your dread skill as much as possible. Once the change happens, you will not be able to train your dread skills any further until you have met the new prerequisites. However, all the bonuses to your dread are going to be based on the dreadnought skill under spaceship command. If you have your dread trained to 5 you can just gellax because you will get a max effective dread w/o those pesky prerequisites. For me, one thing I'll be training is my command ship skill to 5 b/c I don't want to train all of my leardership skills to V.
Could we please agree on not spreading misinformation?
That has been clarified to: If the skill is injected you can train it. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 11:26:00 -
[718] - Quote
I have a question - if you're removing unnecessary skills as prerequisites - Industry V for mining barge - since a lot of miner alts just mine, and there's a main who does all the refining and production and if you want something to replace it with - refining - since at least that can be put towards mining crystals, or maybe mining upgrades... or ice harvesting - just not a productions skill, it's like having controlled bursts (reduction in gun cap usage) as a prereq for a minmatar ship |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 11:36:00 -
[719] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:I have a question - if you're removing unnecessary skills as prerequisites - Industry V for mining barge - since a lot of miner alts just mine, and there's a main who does all the refining and production and if you want something to replace it with - refining - since at least that can be put towards mining crystals, or maybe mining upgrades... or ice harvesting - just not a productions skill, it's like having controlled bursts (reduction in gun cap usage) as a prereq for a minmatar ship
I support this! Mh - Mining Upgrades - what a great idea! |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
426
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 14:07:00 -
[720] - Quote
ako ako wrote:Gogela wrote: Now, for a question of my own:
Anyone know WHEN the summer expansion hits? Just planning my day here...
CCP RubberBAND wrote: We cannot announce exactly when this is happening. But you have many months yet before this goes live.
CCP dont know yet but previous 'summer' expansions have tended towards late april or late may: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online Yes, and then the CCP employees go on summer break, leaving their customers to deal with whatever untested pile of crap was hoisted on them. What CCP should be saying is that players have ~90 days to get their **** in order before the mega skill changes are implemented.
CCP's cycle of "agile" development > vacation > put out the fires is tiresome. +++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark GÇ£SeleeneGÇ¥ Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith. |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 14:16:00 -
[721] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Yes, and then the CCP employees go on summer break, leaving their customers to deal with whatever untested pile of crap was hoisted on them.
CCP's cycle of "agile" development > vacation > put out the fires is tiresome.
Since you came here only in order to whine and troll, instead of leaving constructive feedback to the topic of this thread, I would like to kindly ask you to change your attitude. I believe you will assert that there a many more productive ways to handle things. Even if it means saying nothing sometimes. |
Elirel
Alpha.Tech
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 15:14:00 -
[722] - Quote
If i currently have a dedicated alt trained to fly carrier/mothership will I get battleship level 5 reimbursed? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 15:56:00 -
[723] - Quote
Elirel wrote:If i currently have a dedicated alt trained to fly carrier/mothership will I get battleship level 5 reimbursed?
No reimbursements regarding changed prereqs are being made as evidenced here, here, here and here.
I invite you to lobby in favor of reimbursements. |
Reverend Mak
Abh Empire Unclaimed.
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 16:20:00 -
[724] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Tobin Shalim wrote:Apologies if this has been asked/answered already:
But for those of us that trained up BS to V to fly capital ships (or any other skill training such as this), are we to get reimbursement for the time/SP trained that you are now nerfing? Because what you're doing is making it easier for new people to get into these ships, while we spent all this time training for them in the first place, so shouldn't we get some form of SP reimbursement/compensation for this? Are we going to see this, or is it only for the racial Destroyers and BC skills? Only Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills get reimbursed as mentioned in the blog. Racial battleships skills are however useful to have no matter what.
Well, not "no matter what". I have an alt that just trained to carrier. The alt has essentially no gunnery skills and poor missile skills, as they are purely a carrier pilot. Caldari Battleship 5 does nothing for them other than let them train Carrier 1. Reverend Mak Vice Admiril, Navy Division, Abh Empire http://ReverendMak.com/ http://twitter.com/ReverendMak
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 16:32:00 -
[725] - Quote
Reverend Mak wrote:Well, not "no matter what". I have an alt that just trained to carrier. The alt has essentially no gunnery skills and poor missile skills, as they are purely a carrier pilot. Caldari Battleship 5 does nothing for them other than let them train Carrier 1.
I start to sense that these specialised characters being screwed over are by far no edge case.
I would like to use this chance to plea for some form of reimbursement again. |
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 17:12:00 -
[726] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: I start to sense that these specialised characters being screwed over are by far no edge case.
I would like to use this chance to plea for some form of reimbursement again.
Yep. Which is weird as specialization is the only way to be remotely competitive with the 'vets'. Or so I heard. I got leadership skills, so to help my corpmates I learned to fly an Orca. Never laid my hands on innocent 'roids. Now I am stuck with the very useful Mining Barge 5 - which would be irrelevant for the Orca after the changes. As I said before - in EVE, time is money. I paid for that skill, literally. GIVE IT BACK. |
Elirel
Alpha.Tech
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:09:00 -
[727] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.
Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part. If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints. We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change.
For a dedicated carrier alt Battleship is nothing more than a timesink. Timesink that you decided to remove. In other words you are taking one and half months of subscription time. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
99
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:36:00 -
[728] - Quote
Elirel wrote:For a dedicated carrier alt Battleship is nothing more than a timesink. Timesink that you decided to remove. In other words you are taking one and half months of subscription time. You are an... not so wise person. You dont understand your luck! NOW YOU CAN CROSS-TRAIN CARRIERS IN A WINK!
Just imagine!
A brand new world... __Where everyone ____Can fly ______A carrier ________Being a flavor of the month!
No need to plan ahead~ No need to bother with fleet doctrines~ The choice was difficult. Now it's not. Relax. Take a deep breath. And step into the universe of tedium. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:46:00 -
[729] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote: You are an... not so wise person. You dont understand your luck! NOW YOU CAN CROSS-TRAIN CARRIERS IN A WINK!
Just imagine!
A brand new world... __Where everyone ____Can fly ______A carrier ________Being a flavor of the month!
No need to plan ahead~ No need to bother with fleet doctrines~ The choice was difficult. Now it's not. Relax. Take a deep breath. And step into the universe of tedium.
You are right about that. But that only holds true for future characters. Characters having battleships to 5 already for the sole purpose of being able to fly carrier(s) have their skillepoints already spent, thus sitting on skillpoints they will not ever use. This is why people do not feel well about the plans of CCP to not reimburse those skillpoints, which are no longer needed for the purpose of a given character.
Mostly we are okay with the changes, but we do not like the way the transition is being handled. |
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 21:26:00 -
[730] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Elirel wrote:For a dedicated carrier alt Battleship is nothing more than a timesink. Timesink that you decided to remove. In other words you are taking one and half months of subscription time. You are an... not so wise person. You dont understand your luck! NOW YOU CAN CROSS-TRAIN CARRIERS IN A WINK! Just imagine! A brand new world... __Where everyone ____Can fly ______A carrier ________Being a flavor of the month! No need to plan ahead~ No need to bother with fleet doctrines~ The choice was difficult. Now it's not. Relax. Take a deep breath. And step into the universe of tedium.
You are an ... not so wise person. You don't understand the power of BS levels IV and V getting reimbursed for two races in addition to "NOW YOU CAN CROSS-TRAIN CARRIERS IN A WINK!" |
|
T RAYRAY
Percussive Diplomacy Samurai Pizza Cats
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 02:50:00 -
[731] - Quote
I couldn't make it through the first couple pages before i vomited into my mouth with disgust at the crying.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
mommy...snif...CCP won't give me back my skills that aren't needed anymore... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Shut Up! these forums are like a cesspool of crybabies and whiners and self entitled jerkoffs. come up with something constructive other than "It's MINE, Give it BACK!" "Time is Money!!!!" "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I want I Want I WANT!!!"
HTFU
RTFDB
LTF2P
i'd rather CCP didn't release an expansion than have them give into this crap. YOU EACH PICKED what to train and when. Just because CCP CCP'd doesn't mean you get to take back your decision.
They're letting you know MONTHS in advance that a change will be taking place. If you're dumb enough to train BSV 3 days before this expansion hits, TOO BAD. For those that say "I already trained it before the announcement was made" that's like going to a TV store that guarantees prices for 30 days and saying - "WAAAAAAAAAAA I bought my TV 6 months ago and now the price dropped, GIVE ME MY MONEY" WAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Do you expect Stores to preannounce price reductions MONTHS in advance, then honor the lower price for both those fools who buy just before the sale, and those that purchased months/years before?
NO! SHUT UP
you each also got the benefit of the time you have in your ships right now since you finished your training, after putting in the required training at the time YOU decided to train. Good News!! The next alt you roll will have an easier training time - wahoo!"
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
CCP - Stick with your position and lock this whinefest thread so that these turds can't poison the forums with this nonsense any longer.
a game that doesn't change it up once in awhile is a game that dies a quiet unnoticed death. monopoly just swapped out an iron for a cat. MONOPOLY! i think we can all agree that these skill changes pale in comparison to the fate of the poor iron. move along people.
and SHUT UP
\rant |
Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities Apocalypse Now.
22
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 04:37:00 -
[732] - Quote
Chribba wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Chribba wrote:Whoop whoop
So looking at those changes and the reimbursement... having a number of supercap alts purely trained to sit in supers, that's gonna be one of the "tough" ones at the time of the reimbursement since they have neither BC or DS skills - what happens when these pilots log on without the skills?
Can I assume they will work just as they do today, as long as you got the titan skill, you can fly it regardless if you lost the BS skill or similar (yes has happened to me).
Or maybe that's answered by the last section... if I can fly it..
/c As said in the blog, as long as you have the titan skill before the change, it doesn't matter what the sub-requirements are. The only exceptions are for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill, which is why we are reimbursing them. Excellent, just have to hope that I never get podded and lose the titan skill then haha
So does this mean the same for sub-titans like people already able to use freighters? They will require advanced ship command 5; so, what happens when you can fly a freighter now with say ASC lvl 4? You are able to keep flying it without training the skill to lvl 5?
I had this question before when losing skill points in a specific skill that is requirement for other skills; i got podded last week and got my answer to that question by losing 250k SP in cruise missiles. Until I trained cruise missiles to lvl 5 again, i wasnt able to use the cruise missile specialization already injected. |
Mako Al
Acadamie du Soupe de Homard
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 05:53:00 -
[733] - Quote
Guys, you've gone over the friggin edge. I have a RL life full of revenue targets, staff issues as well as the occassional family hiccups.... so all this rethink on skills is as unwelcomed as another flat tire. This whole "rethink" of ship skills might be exciting for some, but holy crap why do we need to deal with this ****? Its shuffling skills points from one bucket to the next. I just want to play a game a couple hours a day to escape spreadsheets and chat s with kids. I try to get out, they puuuuullll me back in.... No good deed goes unpunished
|
liam perrins
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:29:00 -
[734] - Quote
Why oh Why did i bother training comandships 5?? .. 1`st ccp releases t3 boosts wich allow any nub and his dog to give better boosts... but now .. I HAVE TO TRAIN IT AGAIN?? all very well ccp pandering to the whining noobs who want to be equal(or better than) vet players but sureley this `rebalancing` is going to far.. many t2 ships are virtualy obsolete as their t1 counterparts are almost as good for fraction of the cost (eg legion/ augoror) and skills seem more irrelevant than ever.. thanks for looking after the vets again ccp... good to know our loyalty is valued.. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 10:16:00 -
[735] - Quote
liam perrins wrote:Why oh Why did i bother training comandships 5?? .. 1`st ccp releases t3 boosts wich allow any nub and his dog to give better boosts... but now .. I HAVE TO TRAIN IT AGAIN?? all very well ccp pandering to the whining noobs who want to be equal(or better than) vet players but sureley this `rebalancing` is going to far.. many t2 ships are virtualy obsolete as their t1 counterparts are almost as good for fraction of the cost (eg legion/ augoror) and skills seem more irrelevant than ever.. thanks for looking after the vets again ccp... good to know our loyalty is valued..
OK - you still keep command ships V, and it should still give you the ship bonuses, if it gets slightly buggy, you're a vet, I'm presuming you're already close to the pre-reqs, (which aren't specaialist link skills, just the doctrine skills, and the general link skill) I agree that T2 ships are becoming less useful (cov-ops - I'm looking at you, since that's the T2 I mainly fly), but T3's are getting their link nerfed and command ships are getting a re-work, which will hopefully see a balancing so they're better at linking than T3's and at the same time can boast a better gank/tank than the command T3 |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 10:58:00 -
[736] - Quote
Elvis Preslie wrote:I had this question before when losing skill points in a specific skill that is requirement for other skills; i got podded last week and got my answer to that question by losing 250k SP in cruise missiles. Until I trained cruise missiles to lvl 5 again, i wasnt able to use the cruise missile specialization already injected. If by "use it" you mean "load tech II missiles into my Cruise Missile Launcher II," then there is nothing surprising about that. Check the skill requirements for Scourge Cruise Missile II: the item requires Cruise Missile Launcher V. The launcher itself only requires Cruise Missile Spec I and Missile Launcher Operation I, so you could fit the launchers without having CM V. But you can't load the (tech II) ammo until you have it.
What they said will happen, and what is actual behavior in the game, is that if you have the top level required skills trained, then you can sit in the hull or use the item regardless of if you have the prerequisites trained or not. They also said that if a skill is injected, you can train it, regardless of whether you could inject it again or not, based on the prereqs. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:04:00 -
[737] - Quote
Elvis Preslie wrote: I had this question before when losing skill points in a specific skill that is requirement for other skills; i got podded last week and got my answer to that question by losing 250k SP in cruise missiles. Until I trained cruise missiles to lvl 5 again, i wasnt able to use the cruise missile specialization already injected.
That is NOT an answer to the question after patch, because THIS WILL BE CHANGED. If it is injected you will be able to train it further.
USE THE BLUE CCP ARROWS!! |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:29:00 -
[738] - Quote
Thank you for your opinion, I wish you yourself were more constructive and less insultive. But to my point:
Many players are not happy with not getting skillpoints reimbursed, because they skilled something for the sole reason to fly other stuff. Now CCP changes 'something' into completely different skills, and thus making the skillpoints spent completely obsolete. In my eyes your comparison does not fit the situation.
It is more like you buy an Iphone 5 for 800$, because it is the only phone you can have an all-net-flat with. But then Apple releases an Iphone 6 - same functions, same look, same price, also capable to have an all-net-flat with - and then REMOVES the capability of your Iphone 5 to have an all-net-flat with. Also law forbids you to sell your Iphone 5 so that you can buy an Iphone 6 instead.
Elvis Preslie wrote:So does this mean the same for sub-titans like people already able to use freighters? They will require advanced ship command 5; so, what happens when you can fly a freighter now with say ASC lvl 4? You are able to keep flying it without training the skill to lvl 5?
I had this question before when losing skill points in a specific skill that is requirement for other skills; i got podded last week and got my answer to that question by losing 250k SP in cruise missiles. Until I trained cruise missiles to lvl 5 again, i wasnt able to use the cruise missile specialization already injected.
Also, since you are increasing the training time for the freighter without giving any improvements on it, how about reducing its signature, give it 1 high slot for a prototype cloak, or give it some kind of slots for tactics. Make a tech II version of it at least OTHER THAN A NOMAD, one that cant jump but CAN haul a **** load , keeping the same slow warp speed and align time BUT giving it ability to cloak, low signature to make lock times of other ship within seconds of the same time it takes to align and warp (45 seconds currently with my skills).
Give it some kind of improvement over standard freighter to where it can go through low "safely" but NOT made for null (not able to jump). With a warp speed of 0.8 not like someone cant figure out what gate its in warp and intercept it before it even lands :)
To your first question: CCP is going to change it so you can train a skill as long as you have the skillboook injected. Also a previous post explains why you would not be able to use T2 missiles even after the change.
To your other thoughs: If I recall correctly the skill you now need is Adv. Spaceship Command to level 5 instead of 1 and the racial industrial skill to 3 instead of 5. That makes a difference of around 6 days. But since most players train a character dedicated to fly the freighter and nothing else, most players gain having trained a usefull skill instead of one they will never make use of with that character. For me this is not a loss. I think your other ideas exceed the scope of this topic and are not conductive to the goal of that thread.
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:liam perrins wrote:Why oh Why did i bother training comandships 5?? .. 1`st ccp releases t3 boosts wich allow any nub and his dog to give better boosts... but now .. I HAVE TO TRAIN IT AGAIN?? all very well ccp pandering to the whining noobs who want to be equal(or better than) vet players but sureley this `rebalancing` is going to far.. many t2 ships are virtualy obsolete as their t1 counterparts are almost as good for fraction of the cost (eg legion/ augoror) and skills seem more irrelevant than ever.. thanks for looking after the vets again ccp... good to know our loyalty is valued.. OK - you still keep command ships V, and it should still give you the ship bonuses, if it gets slightly buggy, you're a vet, I'm presuming you're already close to the pre-reqs, (which aren't specaialist link skills, just the doctrine skills, and the general link skill) I agree that T2 ships are becoming less useful (cov-ops - I'm looking at you, since that's the T2 I mainly fly), but T3's are getting their link nerfed and command ships are getting a re-work, which will hopefully see a balancing so they're better at linking than T3's and at the same time can boast a better gank/tank than the command T3
I disagree regarding your opinion that T2 ships are less usefull. The Guardian (is what you meant liam?) has much more rep output that the Augoror. And nothing beats the ability to fit a CovOps Cloak, for intel farming. Yes, you can do it with the t1 version, but that makes your live much harder. Regarding Command Ships, CCP is already in the process of changing those. They will have the same boost bonus, need to be ON grid, be bonused for two different boosts and are intended to be also usefull on grid. Additionally T3 get their bonus nerfed, although needing to be ON grid pretty much makes most fits obsolete anyway.
Liam, you will not need to train anything twice. You do not even bother to train the new prereqs, if you already have command ships injected. |
Kalterox
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:39:00 -
[739] - Quote
This whole Battlecruiser skillpoint distribution plan is a disaster in the making.
One of the factors that has led to BC's being dominant at every level of EVE's pvp is the overpowered effect of the race-spanning BC skill (especially BC5).
BC's have already all but invalidated battleships and cruisers, except recons/logistics and other niche roles, at all levels of PVP bar coalition/large-alliance warfare. And even at the coalition/alliance level, it's taken a recent, crude and rather obvious nerf to the Drake/Cane to stop them trumping more expensive compositions through sheer bang-for-buck value.
By choosing not to reimburse the skillpoints for the BC skill, and instead handing everyone with BC5 free racial maximum skill, CCP have missed an opportunity to de-buff BC's.
In fact worse than that, they've handed an incentive to anyone with a brain to train BC5 before the summer. Meaning in the future we'll have a situation where there will be far, far more people in game with every racial BC skill trained to 5 than there are with racial cruiser and BS skills trained to 5, increasing further the pattern of everybody flying Battlecruisers.
I highly doubt this is being done to be 'fair', or for game balance. It smacks of preempting whines. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:49:00 -
[740] - Quote
Kalterox wrote:This whole Battlecruiser skillpoint distribution plan is a disaster in the making.
One of the factors that has led to BC's being dominant at every level of EVE's pvp is the overpowered effect of the race-spanning BC skill (especially BC5).
BC's have already all but invalidated battleships and cruisers, except recons/logistics and other niche roles, at all levels of PVP bar coalition/large-alliance warfare. And even at the coalition/alliance level, it's taken a recent, crude and rather obvious nerf to the Drake/Cane to stop them trumping more expensive compositions through sheer bang-for-buck value.
By choosing not to reimburse the skillpoints for the BC skill, and instead handing everyone with BC5 free racial maximum skill, CCP have missed an opportunity to de-buff BC's.
In fact worse than that, they've handed an incentive to anyone with a brain to train BC5 before the summer. Meaning in the future we'll have a situation where there will be far, far more people in game with every racial BC skill trained to 5 than there are with racial cruiser and BS skills trained to 5, increasing further the pattern of everybody flying Battlecruisers.
I highly doubt this is being done to be 'fair', or for game balance. It smacks of preempting whines.
I personaly have the opinion CCP should just reset skillpoints and leave the amount where it is on patchday (since not only the battlecruiser stuff, but basicly all prereqs change directly or consequentially). So that you have the same SP before and after.
But even if they do that, or even just what you proposed, I doubt that changes anything about your concerns of everybody flying battlecruisers. In my eyes, the ship rebalancing departement is the right way to go to. The changes to the skill requirements have more of a longterm perspective to help players to fit into fleet doctrines or specialise in general. The way to go here in my view, is to try and change fleet doctrines (eg. make bs more usefull, or nerf bc) instead of preventing players to use battlecruisers. |
|
knobber Jobbler
220
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:54:00 -
[741] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote: I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.
Geez Louise. You aren't losing anything with the prereq changes. Asking for reimbursement for BS V makes as much sense as graduating from a university, working in your field for a decade and then asking for a tuition refund for a few credit hours when your university changes the prereqs to one of the courses you took. edit: removed quote spam
You miss the point here. What I lose is all that training time spent on something I no longer need as a requirement. I would never have trained those skills had they not been required. |
Jungleland Roy
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:58:00 -
[742] - Quote
No SP refund, No Re-map.
2 Years ago I trained a char to fly an orca. I didn't want to mine - I just wanted to have a hauling ship and at the same time I thought what the hell, I can use it to boost mining ops as well. So for 2 years I've had the use of the ship.
Now, if someone had told me 2 years ago that I could wait until Summer 2013 and get the orca without some useless mining skills - would I have waited? - NO! I wanted the ship back then, I skilled accordingly and have had the use of the ship for 2 years.
My only concern would be that due to the new skill changes I had to learn some other skills to get me back to where I am today - and CCP has imo satisfactorily dealt with that problem.
There are only 2 situations where people can feel unfairly treated with this method.
1) The guys who haven't read the forums/devblogs and are now skilling unnecessary skills to get into a ship a few days before the expansion hits. They will be pissed off - but we all know our answer to that one. Eve requires knowledge and keeping up to date on blogs and announcements - so unlucky for you matey.
And 2) The guys who want to fly a ship now but also know that the skill requirements are changing. They either skill unnecessary skills now OR wait for the changes. They have to decide to either do it now or wait for the change depending on how much they want to fly a ship now.
I see no reason for SP refund or re-map.
Roy if you could fly it before, you can fly it now.-á Read the Blog.
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:24:00 -
[743] - Quote
Jungleland Roy wrote:No SP refund, No Re-map. 2 Years ago I trained a char to fly an orca. I didn't want to mine - I just wanted to have a hauling ship and at the same time I thought what the hell, I can use it to boost mining ops as well. So for 2 years I've had the use of the ship. Now, if someone had told me 2 years ago that I could wait until Summer 2013 and get the orca without some useless mining skills - would I have waited? - NO! I wanted the ship back then, I skilled accordingly and have had the use of the ship for 2 years. My only concern would be that due to the new skill changes I had to learn some other skills to get me back to where I am today - and CCP has imo satisfactorily dealt with that problem. There are only 2 situations where people can feel unfairly treated with this method. 1) The guys who haven't read the forums/devblogs and are now skilling unnecessary skills to get into a ship a few days before the expansion hits. They will be pissed off - but we all know our answer to that one. Eve requires knowledge and keeping up to date on blogs and announcements - so unlucky for you matey. And 2) The guys who want to fly a ship now but also know that the skill requirements are changing. They either skill unnecessary skills now OR wait for the changes. They have to decide to either do it now or wait for the change depending on how much they want to fly a ship now. I see no reason for SP refund or re-map. Roy
So you are saying because your teacher was mean, your children must also deal with a mean teacher to balance the fairness? Rather than using this - in my eyes strange - view on justice, I would prefer to finally give the "Orca people" their deserved skillpoints back. Because, yes the pretext of the skills they trained was changed back then, so they should at some point get the chance to decide, if their character should be able to use orca only or all the other stuff they trained, too. By the way, the Orca requirements change yet again. giving dedicated mining commanders even more skillpoints being wastedly spent. Again, for characters without specialisation this is no big deal,because they will eventually use the other skills also. This is about the same situation you had to live through with your dedicated character for mining fleet boosts. I believe we all agree that not reimbursing skillpoints was a mistake back then. But making a mistake once, should not be the the reasoning to repeat it over and over again.
CCP is the only MMO-developer to deny respecs/reimburses to their players, if the skilltree is changed. But given their stance on dedicated alt-chars and specialisation, they have more reason than any other company to do just that. EVE is hardcore in many, many ways and one of the few forms to deal with that is to plan ones skilltime ahead - partly for years. In my opinion CCP would win more, if they did not screw players over who dedicate so much planning and enthusiasm to the game they produce. |
Jungleland Roy
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:33:00 -
[744] - Quote
Never mentioned my teacher.
What I said was that If I was told 2 years ago that the skill requirements were changing and I could have waited for the reduced skill requirements (and thus not fly the orca for 2 years) I still would have trained it back then because I wanted to fly the ship.
I have had 2 years use of it and given the choice again even with the knowledge we have now - I still would have trained the ship then and as a result I have had 2 years enjoyment (?) of flying the ship.
The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made. if you could fly it before, you can fly it now.-á Read the Blog.
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:45:00 -
[745] - Quote
Jungleland Roy wrote:Never mentioned my teacher.
What I said was that If I was told 2 years ago that the skill requirements were changing and I could have waited for the reduced skill requirements (and thus not fly the orca for 2 years) I still would have trained it back then because I wanted to fly the ship.
I have had 2 years use of it and given the choice again even with the knowledge we have now - I still would have trained the ship then and as a result I have had 2 years enjoyment (?) of flying the ship.
The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.
But after the changes the question is, what usefull skillpoints you could have aquired instead of the now redundant skillpoints wasted in requirements that were needed in the past. It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did. So basicly you are voting for shorter skilltimes after the patch, but without any benefit to yourself. I am not that generous. Sorry. |
Lexmana
895
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:51:00 -
[746] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing. I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:55:00 -
[747] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing. I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.
Are insurance payouts for carriers that high? |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
831
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:10:00 -
[748] - Quote
Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?
I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.
But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?
I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.
That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:27:00 -
[749] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?
I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.
But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?
I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.
That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later.
There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
831
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:53:00 -
[750] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Cearain wrote:Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?
I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.
But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?
I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.
That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later. There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man.
Its difficult to see from the graphs what new secondary skills are being added.
I don't want someone to look at this character and tell me what i should train.
I just want to know what ship classes are having secondary/tertiary skills added or increased. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
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Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 16:14:00 -
[751] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Cearain wrote:Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?
I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.
But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?
I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.
That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later. There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man. Its difficult to see from the graphs what new secondary skills are being added. I don't want someone to look at this character and tell me what i should train. I just want to know what ship classes are having secondary/tertiary skills added or increased.
All the ship (-classes) with pictures of changed requirements fit what you seek. Those classes that don't have pictures are already cleared by bc, dessi to 5 and all others to 3.
So you already have the list that you asked for. There is no one who can make it any easier for you. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
831
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 16:21:00 -
[752] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Cearain wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Cearain wrote:Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?
I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.
But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?
I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.
That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later. There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man. Its difficult to see from the graphs what new secondary skills are being added. I don't want someone to look at this character and tell me what i should train. I just want to know what ship classes are having secondary/tertiary skills added or increased. All the ship (-classes) with pictures of changed requirements fit what you seek. Those classes that don't have pictures are already cleared by bc, dessi to 5 and all others to 3. So you already have the list that you asked for. There is no one who can make it any easier for you.
I'm not sure what you mean. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 16:37:00 -
[753] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I'm not sure what you mean.
In the Devblog under the subheadline "Skill changes under the microscope" are many pictures compairing requirements before and after the change.
You have to look at all those pictures, since they basicly very much resemble the list you asked for. Just navigate to the point 'Carriers and Supercarriers:' and below are all shipclasses with changed secondary and tertiary requirements. |
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 17:45:00 -
[754] - Quote
Jungleland Roy wrote:No SP refund, No Re-map.
2 Years ago I trained a char to fly an orca. I didn't want to mine - I just wanted to have a hauling ship and at the same time I thought what the hell, I can use it to boost mining ops as well. So for 2 years I've had the use of the ship.
Now, if someone had told me 2 years ago that I could wait until Summer 2013 and get the orca without some useless mining skills - would I have waited? - NO! I wanted the ship back then, I skilled accordingly and have had the use of the ship for 2 years.
My only concern would be that due to the new skill changes I had to learn some other skills to get me back to where I am today - and CCP has imo satisfactorily dealt with that problem.
There are only 2 situations where people can feel unfairly treated with this method.
1) The guys who haven't read the forums/devblogs and are now skilling unnecessary skills to get into a ship a few days before the expansion hits. They will be pissed off - but we all know our answer to that one. Eve requires knowledge and keeping up to date on blogs and announcements - so unlucky for you matey.
And 2) The guys who want to fly a ship now but also know that the skill requirements are changing. They either skill unnecessary skills now OR wait for the changes. They have to decide to either do it now or wait for the change depending on how much they want to fly a ship now.
I see no reason for SP refund or re-map.
Roy A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).
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DancesWithVeldspar
Raven's Toy Production
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:31:00 -
[755] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: CCP is the only MMO-developer to deny respecs/reimburses to their players, if the skilltree is changed. But given their stance on dedicated alt-chars and specialisation, they have more reason than any other company to do just that. EVE is hardcore in many, many ways and one of the few forms to deal with that is to plan ones skilltime ahead - partly for years. In my opinion CCP would win more, if they did not screw players over who dedicate so much planning and enthusiasm to the game they produce.
In my experience, Eve is also the only MMO where there isn't a finite number of skill points. If any skill, ship or item is nerfed, you can still do other things as you'll be getting more SP to spend. It is only important to allow respecs when you have a finite number of SP.
Savira Terrant wrote: It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did.
You can also still train the required skills if you think them useful. Speed to sitting in an Orca is irreverent as you're already there.
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:09:00 -
[756] - Quote
DancesWithVeldspar wrote: In my experience, Eve is also the only MMO where there isn't a finite number of skill points. If any skill, ship or item is nerfed, you can still do other things as you'll be getting more SP to spend. It is only important to allow respecs when you have a finite number of SP.
You can also still train the required skills if you think them useful. Speed to sitting in an Orca is irreverent as you're already there.
I disagree. With "infinite" skillpoints it is even more important to get respecs, if I am not allowed to alter the time spent on acquiring them by my time being actively online and farming SP - as is the case here. In EVE part of our subscription can directly be translated in "x SP per payment" while we can only make one payment per 30 days.
That in itself and additional other mechanics lead to altchars, which are meant for specific roles they should fulfill, while at the same time not wasting skilltime better spent for another character on the same account. CCP endorses such behavior by even making offers for players with active accounts, just for the purpose of additional specialised characters.
Nerfing does not take place here at all. These are simple changes to the skilltree making skills themselves irrelevant (not nerfed) for the purpose of the ability to fly something. Instead other (now usefull) skills take over their place. So if a character has all the old prereqs and can sit in his beloved ship, he spent time for training now irrelevant skills (for that purpose) and additionally has/had to skill the usefull skills to reach the same usability of a character that started training after or aware of these changes. In other words, old characters are screwed over twice.
Speed is all but irrelevant here, because characters get treated differently (new characters getting a kickstart). That should never happen. Especially with "infinite" skillpoints, aquired at the same pace for all. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:10:00 -
[757] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Jungleland Roy wrote: The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.
But after the changes the question is, what usefull skillpoints you could have aquired instead of the now redundant skillpoints wasted in requirements that were needed in the past. It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did. So basicly you are voting for shorter skilltimes after the patch, but without any benefit to yourself. I am not that generous. Sorry.
Reading comprehension ftw.
The character skilling an Orca after the patch will have a distinct disadvantae over Roy's Orca Alt: unless we also implement time travel, he will not be able to train at reduced skill times AND have used an Orca for 2 years.
There is another - hopefully the main - reason for no SP reimbursements: It goes completely contrary to EVE's skill/attribute system, where attributes decide your future skill speed. It's all about making sacrifices for having that skill you need NOW rather than LATER. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:13:00 -
[758] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Lexmana wrote: I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.
Are insurance payouts for carriers that high? Sitting in a Basilisk: Price 130 mil, payout 54 mil, insurance cost 16 mil. So an insured Basilisk costs 146 mil, I get 54 mil. 146 - 54 = 92 Do you think the salvage is worth 92 mil? Is the payout ratio for carriers so much higher? Also loot is not insured, so we have a 50% ISK sink there. (Only 50% drops last I heard at least)
It takes only a little research and some small measure of brains to realize what an ISK faucet vs. an ISK sink is.
Hint: Ships are not built from ISK. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:20:00 -
[759] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Jungleland Roy wrote: The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.
But after the changes the question is, what usefull skillpoints you could have aquired instead of the now redundant skillpoints wasted in requirements that were needed in the past. It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did. So basicly you are voting for shorter skilltimes after the patch, but without any benefit to yourself. I am not that generous. Sorry. Reading comprehension ftw. The character skilling an Orca after the patch will have a distinct disadvantae over Roy's Orca Alt: unless we also implement time travel, he will not be able to train at reduced skill times AND have used an Orca for 2 years. There is another - hopefully the main - reason for no SP reimbursements: It goes completely contrary to EVE's skill/attribute system, where attributes decide your future skill speed. It's all about making sacrifices for having that skill you need NOW rather than LATER.
Reduced skilltimes were hard earned by requirering skills and thus training time "taking away" from your actual training plan, the reimbursement of those skills was the least CCP could do for taking away the reduced training time. Additionally all characters trained at the same pace before and after the patch within then possible boundaries. Also the usage of the Orca is worth nothing, when comparing training time requirements to get a character into an Orca and usable before and after the patch. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:20:00 -
[760] - Quote
Deornoth Drake wrote: A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).
You knew 3 months ago that there was a skill patch. If it was that important to you, you could have waited until specifics are known.
Did you petition and get a GM's answer that nothing will change regarding the freighter skill requirements? That's the only scenario that would really justify a reimbursement and I find it a bit unlikely. |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:24:00 -
[761] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Deornoth Drake wrote: A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).
You knew 3 months ago that there was a skill patch. If it was that important to you, you could have waited until specifics are known. Did you petition and get a GM's answer that nothing will change regarding the freighter skill requirements? That's the only scenario that would really justify a reimbursement and I find it a bit unlikely.
I have to agree that Deornoth's argument seems rather invalid, given he started only three months ago. But that does not change the validity for characters with the same scenario e.g one year ago. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:25:00 -
[762] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Reading comprehension ftw.
The character skilling an Orca after the patch will have a distinct disadvantae over Roy's Orca Alt: unless we also implement time travel, he will not be able to train at reduced skill times AND have used an Orca for 2 years.
There is another - hopefully the main - reason for no SP reimbursements: It goes completely contrary to EVE's skill/attribute system, where attributes decide your future skill speed. It's all about making sacrifices for having that skill you need NOW rather than LATER.
Reduced skilltimes were hard earned by requirering skills and thus training time "taking away" from your actual training plan, the reimbursement of those skills was the least CCP could do for taking away the reduced training time. Additionally all characters trained at the same pace before and after the patch within then possible boundaries. Also the usage of the Orca is worth nothing, when comparing training time requirements to get a character into an Orca and usable before and after the patch.
I'm not talking about reduced skill times via learning skills, i'm talking about reduced skill times via training AFTER the patch.
I sincerely hope even you would realize that a char that will START training in about 3 months can't possibly have been using his Orca for 2 years, now? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:27:00 -
[763] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Lexmana wrote: I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.
Are insurance payouts for carriers that high? Sitting in a Basilisk: Price 130 mil, payout 54 mil, insurance cost 16 mil. So an insured Basilisk costs 146 mil, I get 54 mil. 146 - 54 = 92 Do you think the salvage is worth 92 mil? Is the payout ratio for carriers so much higher? Also loot is not insured, so we have a 50% ISK sink there. (Only 50% drops last I heard at least) It takes only a little research and some small measure of brains to realize what an ISK faucet vs. an ISK sink is. Hint: Ships are not built from ISK.
Would you care to elaborate on that in a convo, or link me a more detailed explanation and ratios of sink vs. faucet? I seemingly do not have the faculty of imagination to understand it with just this. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:30:00 -
[764] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:I'm not talking about reduced skill times via learning skills, i'm talking about reduced skill times via training AFTER the patch.
I sincerely hope even you would realize that a char that will START training in about 3 months can't possibly have been using his Orca for 2 years, now?
Yes, I do understand that. This is still beside the point of comparing skill training times. The only relevant measure in this discussion. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 20:12:00 -
[765] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:I'm not talking about reduced skill times via learning skills, i'm talking about reduced skill times via training AFTER the patch.
I sincerely hope even you would realize that a char that will START training in about 3 months can't possibly have been using his Orca for 2 years, now? Yes, I do understand that. This is still beside the point of comparing skill training times. The only relevant measure in this discussion.
No, the only relevant measure is time invested. SP/h are not a fixed number.
Let's say I'm skilling up weapon skills and am therefore mapped PER/WIL. If I wish to dabble in PI i can decide to do so NOW and reap immediate benefits or after a remap and thus have delayed benefits. This would directly affect my SP/h and thus my hours invested when i arrive at the same SP amount.
Skilling an Orca a year ago vs. after the patch is the exact same decision, just a tiny bit more abstract, as the precise benefit (WHEN will CCP cook up their next skill changes that affect Orca skills) and cost (HOW will Orca skills change) was an unknown factor when the decision was made. However, it's not like CCP never touched their skill system, so it was still a decision between NOW and THEN, because you knew that CCP could always change skill requirements.
Let's take another example, carrier skills. How would you go about reimbursing pilots, do you want to check how many hours they spent sitting in a BS? Do you want to take into account, how they used their remaps? Because that information is relevant, as you can currently split carrier skills cleanly into INT and PER based without any fixed order to the remap sections. After the patch however, the INT section will have to be strictly before the PER section, because jump drive skills will be a requirement for carrier skills. So there is some likelyhood the difference is not simply the difference between BS III and BS V. How much value would a bonus remap used up in the process have? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 20:55:00 -
[766] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
No, the only relevant measure is time invested. SP/h are not a fixed number.
Let's say I'm skilling up weapon skills and am therefore mapped PER/WIL. If I wish to dabble in PI i can decide to do so NOW and reap immediate benefits or after a remap and thus have delayed benefits. This would directly affect my SP/h and thus my hours invested when i arrive at the same SP amount.
Skilling an Orca a year ago vs. after the patch is the exact same decision, just a tiny bit more abstract, as the precise benefit (WHEN will CCP cook up their next skill changes that affect Orca skills) and cost (HOW will Orca skills change) was an unknown factor when the decision was made. However, it's not like CCP never touched their skill system, so it was still a decision between NOW and THEN, because you knew that CCP could always change skill requirements.
Let's take another example, carrier skills. How would you go about reimbursing pilots, do you want to check how many hours they spent sitting in a BS? Do you want to take into account, how they used their remaps? Because that information is relevant, as you can currently split carrier skills cleanly into INT and PER based without any fixed order to the remap sections. After the patch however, the INT section will have to be strictly before the PER section, because jump drive skills will be a requirement for carrier skills. So there is some likelyhood the difference is not simply the difference between BS III and BS V. How much value would a bonus remap used up in the process have?
The fact that a gaming company could change their skilltrees is pretty obvious. But it is very important how they handle the transition in an MMO. All I am asking for, is to treat all players the same, regardless if they are already able to fly any given ship or not. This is only possible with a reimbursement/reset of skillpoints.
You have a very valid point that the ability to remap attributes complicates the whole matter. But if you look at it closely, you could only effectively use remaps on specialised longterm skillplans like capitals or similar long goals anyway. Even if you use remaps more often than once a year due to the beginners bonus remaps, we all were given those. And fixing the order of the remaps is not an issue at all, since the goal at the end is the same, only that after the patch you actually trained usefull prereqs with that remap (or not so usefull in carriers case as some argue). So it is another win for new players. Shifting around remap orders does not change anything.
SP/h are not a fixed number. That is exactly right. This only helps my argument that we should leave the amount of SP a player has to be the same before and after the patch. |
Brother Ivan
Mongrel A.D.A.M.S. Genesis II
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 21:11:00 -
[767] - Quote
If a Dev could answer this question it would be awesome.
The comment on skill point reimbursement if there are "no racial frigate/cruiser" skills present is quite ambiguous, and I would like some clarification as to whether it applies to the case of no frigate/cruiser skills at all, or missing specific racial firgate/cruiser skills.
Example:
Prior to skill split: Amarr Frigate 4 Amarr Cruiser 3
Gallente Frigate 4 Gallente Cruiser 3
Battlecruiser 4
(assuming no other skills)
would a character with the above skills be given the skill points (not the skills themselves) for minmatar battlecruiser 4 and caldari battlecruiser 4 since there are no frigate/cruiser skills that correspond to those two races? or would the character simply be given the amarr and gallente battlecruiser skills, and no skill point reimbusment?
Any clarification is greatly appreciated. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 21:26:00 -
[768] - Quote
Brother Ivan wrote:If a Dev could answer this question it would be awesome.
The comment on skill point reimbursement if there are "no racial frigate/cruiser" skills present is quite ambiguous, and I would like some clarification as to whether it applies to the case of no frigate/cruiser skills at all, or missing specific racial firgate/cruiser skills.
Example:
Prior to skill split: Amarr Frigate 4 Amarr Cruiser 3
Gallente Frigate 4 Gallente Cruiser 3
Battlecruiser 4
(assuming no other skills)
would a character with the above skills be given the skill points (not the skills themselves) for minmatar battlecruiser 4 and caldari battlecruiser 4 since there are no frigate/cruiser skills that correspond to those two races? or would the character simply be given the amarr and gallente battlecruiser skills, and no skill point reimbusment?
Any clarification is greatly appreciated.
I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else. |
Deornoth Drake
tipiwhenua tuarangi
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 21:30:00 -
[769] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Deornoth Drake wrote: A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).
You knew 3 months ago that there was a skill patch. If it was that important to you, you could have waited until specifics are known. Did you petition and get a GM's answer that nothing will change regarding the freighter skill requirements? That's the only scenario that would really justify a reimbursement and I find it a bit unlikely. In the same way it is unlikely that a GM would have know about the patch affecting the freighter skill requirements. |
DancesWithVeldspar
Raven's Toy Production
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 21:39:00 -
[770] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:I disagree. With "infinite" skillpoints it is even more important to get respecs, if I am not allowed to alter the time spent on acquiring them by my time being actively online and farming SP - as is the case here. In EVE part of our subscription can directly be translated in "x SP per payment" while we can only make one payment per 30 days. With regards to games, if you are considering anything other than fun for your return on money/plex, you seriously need to re-evaluate your life priorites! Yes, you can translate your subscription to "x SP per payment" but that doesn't make you look good.
You also need to explain why respecs are even more important with "infinite" skillpoints. You can still learn what is needed and isn't that the important desire? If you can no longer do what you want, that fuels respecs.
Savira Terrant wrote:Nerfing does not take place here at all. These are simple changes to the skilltree making skills themselves irrelevant (not nerfed) for the purpose of the ability to fly something. I consider the word nerf to be a generalised adjective of irrelevant, so it will help me to understand you if you explain what nerf means to you. Making skills irrelevant means fewer people will buy them, which in general terms is a nerf, isn't it?
I'm very confused by this next bit. Either already having the ship skills is good or not. You can't claim both.
Savira Terrant wrote:Instead other (now usefull) skills take over their place. So if a character has all the old prereqs and can sit in his beloved ship, he spent time for training now irrelevant skills (for that purpose) and additionally has/had to skill the usefull skills to reach the same usability of a character that started training after or aware of these changes. In other words, old characters are screwed over twice.
Speed is all but irrelevant here You've been making use of the ship long before (months/years?) a character that gets into an Orca after this skill change goes ahead. Why are you disregarding that?
The Mining barge skill was irrelevant to you once you had injected the Industrial Command Ships skill. If you had lost the Mining barge skill, you could still have continued training your Industrial Command Ships skill. Read some of the replies in this thread from people that had been podded without up-to-date clones.
So why are you complaining now?
And why don't you not already have the useful skills if they are useful?
|
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Brother Ivan
Mongrel A.D.A.M.S. Genesis II
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 21:44:00 -
[771] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else.
Thank you for your input, but my question was not regarding the battlecruiser skill split but rather this specific passage in the dev blog
CCP Ytterbium wrote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 22:25:00 -
[772] - Quote
DancesWithVeldspar wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:I disagree. With "infinite" skillpoints it is even more important to get respecs, if I am not allowed to alter the time spent on acquiring them by my time being actively online and farming SP - as is the case here. In EVE part of our subscription can directly be translated in "x SP per payment" while we can only make one payment per 30 days. With regards to games, if you are considering anything other than fun for your return on money/plex, you seriously need to re-evaluate your life priorites! Yes, you can translate your subscription to "x SP per payment" but that doesn't make you look good. You also need to explain why respecs are even more important with "infinite" skillpoints. You can still learn what is needed and isn't that the important desire? If you can no longer do what you want, that fuels respecs. Savira Terrant wrote:Nerfing does not take place here at all. These are simple changes to the skilltree making skills themselves irrelevant (not nerfed) for the purpose of the ability to fly something. I consider the word nerf to be a generalised adjective of irrelevant, so it will help me to understand you if you explain what nerf means to you. Making skills irrelevant means fewer people will buy them, which in general terms is a nerf, isn't it? I'm very confused by this next bit. Either already having the ship skills is good or not. You can't claim both. Savira Terrant wrote:Instead other (now usefull) skills take over their place. So if a character has all the old prereqs and can sit in his beloved ship, he spent time for training now irrelevant skills (for that purpose) and additionally has/had to skill the usefull skills to reach the same usability of a character that started training after or aware of these changes. In other words, old characters are screwed over twice.
Speed is all but irrelevant here You've been making use of the ship long before (months/years?) a character that gets into an Orca after this skill change goes ahead. Why are you disregarding that? The Mining barge skill was irrelevant to you once you had injected the Industrial Command Ships skill. If you had lost the Mining barge skill, you could still have continued training your Industrial Command Ships skill. Read some of the replies in this thread from people that had been podded without up-to-date clones. So why are you complaining now? And why don't you not already have the useful skills if they are useful?
Min-maxing my character for a given payment I consider to be fun very much. I do not think a discussion about what and why something should be fun for anyone playing games is not very expedient for this threads purpose. Also looking good, is by far my least concern here, instead I would like to freely exchange opinions.
Yes, I can still use any given skill I ever trained. But having "all" of the infinite skillpoints is not what I consider the right objective for all of my characters. Instead it is fun for me to obtain only skills that help my character doing one specific role. In case of the Orca, having Mining Barges, Mining and Astrogeology skilled does only help to fulfill the role if it stays an actual prereq to sit down in the Orca. If I do not need the skill to fly it, the time spent is in multiple ways wasted (even using the SP to skill Evasive Manuvering to 5 would in this case be a better use of the training time).
From my perspective nerfing a skill would be to either reduce the bonuses or make the object of the bonus less desirable. But in case of the Mining Barge skill that did not happen, if anything it was buffed by the changes to the Mining Barges it is still a very useful skill - if you want to mine. In the case of a character with the sole purpose of boosting a mining fleet, it was made redundant since you no longer need the skill to fill your role. Thus the skillpoints are wasted.
I would like to draw a clear line between skilltime and playtime. Yes, maybe someone had the chance to use the Orca for two years already, but that is because he started playing the game earlier and nothing else. That does not give him neither an advantage nor a disatvantage to a player starting the game today, since both of them train in the same pace within game mechanical fluctuations a player can manipulate. If you now give a player the Orca without the need to skill the Mining Barges first however, is a clear advantage to the new player in terms of training time to fill his role.
It will never be irrelevant to train a prereq skill, because you will have to train it at least once to inject the skill. Also training was not possible in the past after you lost a prereq, that only now gets changed to spare us of headaches. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 22:31:00 -
[773] - Quote
Brother Ivan wrote:Savira Terrant wrote: I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else.
Thank you for your input, but my question was not regarding the battlecruiser skill split but rather this specific passage in the dev blog CCP Ytterbium wrote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
Your character would not get the skillpoints to the allocation pool. Instead you will only be given the Amarr and Gallente Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills at your current level. Since you did not say anything about the destroyer skill. If you do not have it, you will not get the respective Destroyer skills. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 02:27:00 -
[774] - Quote
Hi, i have a small question to the future skill change.
When i can fly all Command Ships, i would get 4 racial BC Skills and them at lvl5. But they change the secondary requirements of the Command Ships.
So would i also get those Skills reimbursed so that i could fly the cs again or is it only the BC Skill. Interdictors/ Heavy Interdictor would be the same case.
Hope i can get an answer, preferred official of course
Thx
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
615
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 02:49:00 -
[775] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:Hi, i have a small question to the future skill change.
When i can fly all Command Ships, i would get 4 racial BC Skills and them at lvl5. But they change the secondary requirements of the Command Ships.
So would i also get those Skills reimbursed so that i could fly the cs again or is it only the BC Skill. Interdictors/ Heavy Interdictor would be the same case.
Hope i can get an answer, preferred official of course
Thx
Official responses to this scenario have already been given. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 04:12:00 -
[776] - Quote
if so when and where havent seen it, thx for the help
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
615
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 04:21:00 -
[777] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:if so when and where havent seen it, thx for the help
You don't need the new prerequisites if you can fly it now. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:13:00 -
[778] - Quote
sorry but that doesnt answer my question because i only trained warfare link specialist to 4 and the new cs will need armor, skirmish and so on at 5 (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64158/1/SkillCommandShip.jpg).
So what will happen in that case? |
Marion Youngone
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:14:00 -
[779] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:CCP You are contradicting yourself and screwing things up here. Quote:We are changing skill requirements to keep a training time close to what we have in game right now and to make sure players meet more relevant prerequisites when gearing for Capital Ships Wrong.... Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days Orca > 49 days to 17 days These are clearly not "close to what we have in game right now" You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships. This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class. The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless. If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.
I'm a new player to the game and after reading tons of guides and watching lots of tutorial vids on every aspect of the game I feel that I would be useful in a carrier at three months into the game. Hell from what I see in most fights you just do what the fc tells you to do and all that requires is clicking the mouse a few times on some buttons. Hardly rocket science there mate.. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 08:55:00 -
[780] - Quote
Brother Ivan wrote:Savira Terrant wrote: I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else.
Thank you for your input, but my question was not regarding the battlecruiser skill split but rather this specific passage in the dev blog CCP Ytterbium wrote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
IF you have the battlecruiser skill trained but can not fly ANY battlecruiser (i.e. ALL of your cruiser skills are 2 or less), THEN you will get the SP invested in battlecruisers into your allocation pool.
It's a very specific scenario that would apply only for a very small minority of players. A useful scenario would be if you are a dedicated frigate/destroyer pilot, PER/WIL mapped and wish to learn for example leadership skils efficiently.
I could not come up with ANY scenario, where learning the destroyer skill without having any frigate at 3+ would make sense. |
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 08:57:00 -
[781] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:sorry but that doesnt answer my question because i only trained warfare link specialist to 4 and the new cs will need armor, skirmish and so on at 5 (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64158/1/SkillCommandShip.jpg). So what will happen in that case?
Try reading instead of interpreting.
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 09:09:00 -
[782] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: I would like to draw a clear line between skilltime and playtime. Yes, maybe someone had the chance to use the Orca for two years already, but that is because he started playing the game earlier and nothing else. That does not give him neither an advantage nor a disatvantage to a player starting the game today [...]
Of course being older does give him an advantage. The only distinction you could make is with Alts that have been passively skilled and never used, but in that case the player would still have tons of advantages over a newbie (from his main/other alts).
EVE is the MMO with the LEAST catch up mechanisms out there.
I thought about considering this skill patch an attempt at a minor catch up mechanism by CCP for a while, until i realized that with the immense changes to cross skilling capitals now, most veterans will profit at least as much as a newer player.
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 10:47:00 -
[783] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote: I would like to draw a clear line between skilltime and playtime. Yes, maybe someone had the chance to use the Orca for two years already, but that is because he started playing the game earlier and nothing else. That does not give him neither an advantage nor a disatvantage to a player starting the game today [...]
Of course being older does give him an advantage. The only distinction you could make is with Alts that have been passively skilled and never used, but in that case the player would still have tons of advantages over a newbie (from his main/other alts). EVE is the MMO with the LEAST catch up mechanisms out there. I thought about considering this skill patch an attempt at a minor catch up mechanism by CCP for a while, until i realized that with the immense changes to cross skilling capitals now, most veterans will profit at least as much as a newer player.
I would like you to quote the whole relevant passage in the future. You missed: ...since both of them train in the same pace within game mechanical fluctuations a player can manipulate.
That means if the accumulation is at the "same" pace, they can reach a given skill within the same timeframe. Now if is a bit more complecated and we need multiple skills do do any given thing. And the old player had to train additional skills vs a player after the patch. So it is the old players disadvantage.
The old player has an advantage of playing the game longer, you are right. But that is an advantage he should have! Given the skill mechanics of EVE, this is the thing to discern a vet from a newb and was always intended as part of the hardcore factor or whatever. If CCP wants to change that, they should go ahead and say it. Instead they say: A newb needs to be smart and specialise to beat the vet. Then please implement it that way.
The capital changes give the old players no advantage, they would not already have from playing the game longer than the new player. About that, see above. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 10:52:00 -
[784] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:sorry but that doesnt answer my question because i only trained warfare link specialist to 4 and the new cs will need armor, skirmish and so on at 5 (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64158/1/SkillCommandShip.jpg). So what will happen in that case?
If you can fly all command ships means you have the skill already injected. Since you already injected that skill, you will not need the new requirements to further train command ship levels by the time the patch hits. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 11:47:00 -
[785] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: That means if the accumulation is at the "same" pace, they can reach a given skill within the same timeframe. Now if is a bit more complecated and we need multiple skills do do any given thing. And the old player had to train additional skills vs a player after the patch. So it is the old players disadvantage.
A disadvantage balanced by the advantage of being older.
Quote: The old player has an advantage of playing the game longer, you are right. But that is an advantage he should have!
Who says to what extend older players should have an advantage? If what everyone says is true and people play the game for FUN, he has already had all the advantage he needs by gaining the fun from playing the game longer.
Quote: Instead they say: A newb needs to be smart and specialise to beat the vet.
And we all know that to be a blatant lie. Try playing a specialized char to beat that PvP pilot with his off-grid booster alt.
A relevant argument would be, that a group of newbs can actually gang up on a veteran here with a marginal chance of success. However, please keep in mind that the time period where you're considered newb skill-wise is lightyears removed from other MMOs, so that the power difference is really a non factor in those other games.
Quote: The capital changes give the old players no advantage, they would not already have from playing the game longer than the new player. About that, see above.
The capital changes give older players an advantage, because cross skilling into another race's carrier or dreadnaught or even titan is a valid option for them with the changed requirements of which they already fulfil most, being already a captal pilot in the first place.
It is not a valid option for the new guy, as he will still be busy skilling fitting skills for his first carrier when the veteran has rounded out all 4 races' carriers. |
Lexmana
896
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 12:21:00 -
[786] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Lexmana wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Rommiee wrote:If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that. Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing. I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts. Are insurance payouts for carriers that high? Sitting in a Basilisk: Price 130 mil, payout 54 mil, insurance cost 16 mil. So an insured Basilisk costs 146 mil, I get 54 mil. 146 - 54 = 92 Do you think the salvage is worth 92 mil? Is the payout ratio for carriers so much higher? Also loot is not insured, so we have a 50% ISK sink there. (Only 50% drops last I heard at least)
Funny you should ask that but exploding carriers are indeed a mineral sink but it is also an ISK faucet.
If you go and explode your Basilisk there will be a net of 54-16=38M ISK injected into the game that didn't exist before. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 12:23:00 -
[787] - Quote
Jungleland Roy wrote:Never mentioned my teacher.
What I said was that If I was told 2 years ago that the skill requirements were changing and I could have waited for the reduced skill requirements (and thus not fly the orca for 2 years) I still would have trained it back then because I wanted to fly the ship.
me too.
Jungleland Roy wrote: I have had 2 years use of it and given the choice again even with the knowledge we have now - I still would have trained the ship then and as a result I have had 2 years enjoyment (?) of flying the ship.
that-¦s right.
Jungleland Roy wrote: The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.
Should be. But even if this skill-¦s aren-¦t redundant/obsolete/useless to me, that wouldn-¦t bring me to the conclusion that this should be the case for every one else. Even if all you sayd makes sense, there isn-¦t imo no argument why a reimbursement should-¦t be considered. I imagin the Pilot/Alt who finished that taining 3 months ago and now faces this changes. That doesn-¦t mean that he wouldnt have trained it, but that also doesn-¦t mean that a reimbursement would-¦t be the right thing to do. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 12:30:00 -
[788] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote: That means if the accumulation is at the "same" pace, they can reach a given skill within the same timeframe. Now if is a bit more complecated and we need multiple skills do do any given thing. And the old player had to train additional skills vs a player after the patch. So it is the old players disadvantage.
A disadvantage balanced by the advantage of being older. Quote: The old player has an advantage of playing the game longer, you are right. But that is an advantage he should have!
Who says to what extend older players should have an advantage? If what everyone says is true and people play the game for FUN, he has already had all the advantage he needs by gaining the fun from playing the game longer. Quote: Instead they say: A newb needs to be smart and specialise to beat the vet.
And we all know that to be a blatant lie. Try playing a specialized char to beat that PvP pilot with his off-grid booster alt. A relevant argument would be, that a group of newbs can actually gang up on a veteran here with a marginal chance of success. However, please keep in mind that the time period where you're considered newb skill-wise is lightyears removed from other MMOs, so that the power difference is really a non factor in those other games. Quote: The capital changes give the old players no advantage, they would not already have from playing the game longer than the new player. About that, see above.
The capital changes give older players an advantage, because cross skilling into another race's carrier or dreadnaught or even titan is a valid option for them with the changed requirements of which they already fulfil most, being already a captal pilot in the first place. It is not a valid option for the new guy, as he will still be busy skilling fitting skills for his first carrier when the veteran has rounded out all 4 races' carriers.
I have to ask if i understand this right, are you arguing pro some sort of "level cap"? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 12:38:00 -
[789] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:A disadvantage balanced by the advantage of being older. As I said being an older char is what skilling in EVE is all about and thus a wanted advantage.
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:And we all know that to be a blatant lie. Try playing a specialized char to beat that PvP pilot with his off-grid booster alt.
A relevant argument would be, that a group of newbs can actually gang up on a veteran here with a marginal chance of success. However, please keep in mind that the time period where you're considered newb skill-wise is lightyears removed from other MMOs, so that the power difference is really a non factor in those other games. Lightyears is wrong if used as a metric for time (is what we do here) and the issue is already tackled by the planned ability of the newb to be smart and enable him to specialise in a much more reasonable timeframe than before the changes to the skilltree. I did not mean that he has this ability right now. In my eyes having multiple accounts is not a metric to be measured, when comparing training times of post- vs pre-patch characters.
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:The capital changes give older players an advantage, because cross skilling into another race's carrier or dreadnaught or even titan is a valid option for them with the changed requirements of which they already fulfil most, being already a captal pilot in the first place. It is not a valid option for the new guy, as he will still be busy skilling fitting skills for his first carrier when the veteran has rounded out all 4 races' carriers. That is also the natural advantage of a character being in the game longer. And thus has nothing to do with the discussion, because once the new character reaches the - now easier to reach - usefulness of one carrier, it will have the same "advantage" of the character already having the skills trained. But the second character had to spend much more time to reach the same usefulness for one carrier, than the post-patch character
It seems like we disagree on some of the very basic concepts of what EVE is. I do not only consider the PVP part itself fun. But also the skilltraining mechac itself by getting the most - SP wise - out of my subscription time. I know for a fact that other players think the same way I do. Hence having had fun with a given ship is not the only playstyle to consider. I like the fact I will have a SP amount put into the usefulness of one ship, that a 2nd player will need the same amount of SP (thus real-time) to reach the level I achieved. This is distinctive to other games where only game-time matters. And it should always stay that way.
In other words, while I am okay with making real-time to reach something more reasonable for new players, I want the opportunity to decide if the additional time - I spent on that same something - has the same value given the new circumstances. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 13:23:00 -
[790] - Quote
Icke Himal wrote:
I have to ask if i understand this right, are you arguing pro some sort of "level cap"?
No. I'm arguing against "oh noes, newbies will have it easier" in the light of the immense advantages older players have.
- It is impossible to catch up completely - it IS possible to catch up in specialized areas, but by the time the catching up is done, personally I would consider the newer player a mid-age veteran already
Savira Terrant wrote: Lightyears is wrong if used as a metric for time (is what we do here)
I used it as a metric of distance. Having studied physics, I'm somewhat familar with the concept :).
Quote: and the issue is already tackled by the planned ability of the newb to be smart and enable him to specialise in a much more reasonable timeframe than before the changes to the skilltree.
Is it? By removing a few minutes from ship command skills?
If I want to be anything but the tackle monkey in PvP i need fitting and weapon skills worth at least 100 days for cruiser sized ships. How relevant is it in that context if I invest 50 or 45 days into ship command skills?
The ONLY players with a SUBSTANTIAL decrease in skilling time are dedicated Orca pilots (fitting requirements being mostly optional for those) and pilots cross skilling into other races BS or capitals. Both strike me as rather odd newbie careers.
|
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Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 14:02:00 -
[791] - Quote
Damn forum. need a second to fix this. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3300
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 14:34:00 -
[792] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: I do not see that fairness in how skilltree changes are handled. Pre-patch characters will be stuck with e.g racial Battleship 5, even if they never intended to use it other than as a prereq. I mean why does it hurt to reimburse the old prereqs? If you reimburse them and later a person decides he wants to use a battleship effectively, they would still have to retrain it, just like a post-patch character would need to train it up, even if it is already able to fly four different carriers by then.
Additionally I cannot believe it would be that hard to just reimburse the old requirements - only if the player does not have another skill that required the the first GÇô and force the player to put those skillpoints into the direction of the new requirements. Personally, I believe if these skillpoints are not enough for the new requirements to be bad luck GÇô so start training them GÇô but even without that it has more fairness to it than forced to be stuck on the old GÇô now unrelated GÇô skills.
It hurts because having Free SP is a very powerful thing. It means that if CCP adds some new ship skills you can instantly specialize in them. It hurts because if your current FOTM ship gets nerfed, you can instantly cross-train into a new race.
*Especially* when you are talking about BS 5, which is up to 6 million SP that would go into free SP. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 14:46:00 -
[793] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:sorry but that doesnt answer my question because i only trained warfare link specialist to 4 and the new cs will need armor, skirmish and so on at 5 (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64158/1/SkillCommandShip.jpg). So what will happen in that case? If you can fly all command ships means you have the skill already injected. Since you already injected that skill, you will not need the new requirements to further train command ship levels by the time the patch hits. Also the new requirement are not the specialist skills, but the normal ones. Again, you will not need to train those if you have the command ship skill already injected.
Sorry sometimes i have trouble understanding something.
Now i get what u meant, just thought all skills listed in the ship prereqs are required to fly it. But the secondary skills are only there to get to the primary skills.
Thanks for getting that through my pighead. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 14:52:00 -
[794] - Quote
Two step wrote:It hurts because having Free SP is a very powerful thing. It means that if CCP adds some new ship skills you can instantly specialize in them. It hurts because if your current FOTM ship gets nerfed, you can instantly cross-train into a new race.
*Especially* when you are talking about BS 5, which is up to 6 million SP that would go into free SP.
Thank you for your input.
I disagree that this hurts because a player under the new rules, will have the same thing with less overall skillpoints. So by reimbursing this difference we only allow pre-patch characters to catch up to the new player.
Let's say before the patch, it took 7 month to train a jump-capable carrier. I have this char now. I decide not to train further.
Let's say it takes 6 month after the patch. I now have an additional month to train e.g. Jump Fuel Compensation to 5, because I can.
The pre-patch character would need additional skillpoints - hence time - to reach the same -specialised, yes - goal from that point on.
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 14:57:00 -
[795] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:Sorry sometimes i have trouble understanding something.
Now i get what u meant, just thought all skills listed in the ship prereqs are required to fly it. But the secondary skills are only there to get to the primary skills.
Thanks for getting that through my pighead.
Well, not quite. You still have to think of two different skilltrees and you need to to reach the top of both to sit down in the ship.
But because of how the transition for existing players is going to be handled, you do not need to skill anything other than BC 5 and the old prereqs, which you already have. So you are golden.
Edit: And all cruiser to 3 but you should have those to already, since you said you can fly all if I recall correctly.
You won't be reimbursed the old secondary skills, but I am fighting hard to change that. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:16:00 -
[796] - Quote
Two step wrote:It hurts because having Free SP is a very powerful thing. It means that if CCP adds some new ship skills you can instantly specialize in them. It hurts because if your current FOTM ship gets nerfed, you can instantly cross-train into a new race.
*Especially* when you are talking about BS 5, which is up to 6 million SP that would go into free SP.
The fact, that so much SP were trained in Skills, wich are not necceserly needed, would be the exact argument why the SP should be reimbursed. This also holds true for a nerv of a Shiptype, since one would have trained these skills exactly, because to fly that ship, with exactly that stats. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:26:00 -
[797] - Quote
Of all the threadnaughts that have ever been. This is one. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:30:00 -
[798] - Quote
Icke Himal wrote:The fact, that so much SP were trained in Skills, wich are not necceserly needed, would be the exact argument why the SP should be reimbursed. This also holds true for a nerv of a Shiptype, since one would have trained these skills exactly, because to fly that ship, with exactly that stats.
Woah, I really do not want to take it that far. I am only vouching for reimbursements because the skilltree itself is changed. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:37:00 -
[799] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Icke Himal wrote:The fact, that so much SP were trained in Skills, wich are not necceserly needed, would be the exact argument why the SP should be reimbursed. This also holds true for a nerv of a Shiptype, since one would have trained these skills exactly, because to fly that ship, with exactly that stats. Woah, I really do not want to take it that far. I am only vouching for reimbursements because the skilltree itself is changed.
I like to add, that i-¦d also would say, that in case of an reimbursement, there should also be the necessarity to bring the corresponding skills to the lvl that is needed for the new prereq-¦s. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:40:00 -
[800] - Quote
Icke Himal wrote:I like to add, that i-¦d also would say, that in case of an reimbursement, there should also be the necessarity to bring the corresponding skills to the lvl that is needed for the new prereq-¦s.
With that I would be very happy. Much better than the mess we are in now. |
|
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 15:51:00 -
[801] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:With that I would be very happy. Much better than the mess we are in now.
I agree, but i don-¦t think that any of that would get in consieration again , since the official statement of the handling is already made and this option surely was already on the table. Or am i mistaken?
Edit: |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:11:00 -
[802] - Quote
Icke Himal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:With that I would be very happy. Much better than the mess we are in now. I agree, but i don-¦t think that any of that would get in consieration again , since the official statement of the handling is already made and this option surely was already on the table. Or am i mistaken? Edit:
Well, I am not sure about that. But given that CCP pushed themselves into a corner with their catchphrase like more than a year ago, it will be at least hard to let them even reconsider the transition-style they pulled out of their top-head, I fear. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:17:00 -
[803] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: Well, I am not sure about that. But given that CCP pushed themselves into a corner with their catchphrase like more than a year ago, it will be at least hard to let them even reconsider the transition-style they pulled out of their top-head, I fear.
Missed that, i guess. Care to enlighten me? |
Lexmana
896
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:20:00 -
[804] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Icke Himal wrote:I like to add, that i-¦d also would say, that in case of an reimbursement, there should also be the necessarity to bring the corresponding skills to the lvl that is needed for the new prereq-¦s. With that I would be very happy. Much better than the mess we are in now. That would really create a mess ...
I think you just want free skill points handed to you from CCP so that the training you once did put in to get a carrier can be used one more time to boost your character. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:32:00 -
[805] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:I think you just want free skill points handed to you from CCP so that the training you once did put in to get a carrier can be used one more time to boost your character.
Well, i prefer the sneaky and stealthy ways to deal damage ;). But thanks for your constructive opinion.
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:43:00 -
[806] - Quote
Lexmana wrote: That would really create a mess ...
I think you just want free skill points handed to you from CCP so that the training you once did put in to get a carrier can be used one more time to boost your character.
Actually what I meant was to force us to put the skillpoints into the direction of the new requirements ending up with the same amount of skillpoints before and after the patch. And then if we would - for some weird reason - not reach all the new requirements to force us to skill the rest to use whatever ship once more.
I do not like free skillpoints at all. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:56:00 -
[807] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Lexmana wrote: That would really create a mess ...
I think you just want free skill points handed to you from CCP so that the training you once did put in to get a carrier can be used one more time to boost your character.
Actually what I meant was to force us to put the skillpoints into the direction of the new requirements ending up with the same amount of skillpoints before and after the patch. And then if we would - for some weird reason - not reach all the new requirements to force us to skill the rest to use whatever ship once more. I do not like free skillpoints at all and I do not know where those free skillpoints you are talking about would even come from. Icke Himal wrote:Missed that, i guess. Care to enlighten me? The CCP catch-phrase "if you can fly it now, you can fly it after the patch".
That was a serious statement of him? really? thougt he tried to troll arround. In that case i excuse for my sarcasm.
Edit: thanks for clarifying that CCP catch-phrase. Didn-¦t know it was already made over a year ago. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 17:33:00 -
[808] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: Additionally I cannot believe it would be that hard to just reimburse the old requirements - only if the player does not have another skill that required the the first GÇô and force the player to put those skillpoints into the direction of the new requirements. Personally, I believe if these skillpoints are not enough for the new requirements to be bad luck GÇô so start training them GÇô but even without that it has more fairness to it than forced to be stuck on the old GÇô now unrelated GÇô skills.
You still have not adressed two of my main issues:
- How would you propose to find out if an old and now obsolete prerequisite skill has never been used? I highly doubt that it has been logged for every single carrier pilot if he ever sat in a battleship after skilling past BS 3 or every Orca pilot, if he ever sat in a mining barge. Solutions on a case by case basis are not an option due to the manpower requirement on CCP's part
- What about mappings? BS V is a skill that would most likely have been trained at a very effective mapping, most likely Per 10/Wil 4. Would the reimbursed skillpoints have a property attached that they can only be used on skills with primary perception, secondary willpower? Or if you want it more general, will those SP only be useable on skills where you at SOME point had primary 10/secondary 4? Being allowed to use those reallocated SP on skills with a worse mapping than they were gained on would be unfair, so that's not an option. Again, please give a solution that is not case by case. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:07:00 -
[809] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote: Additionally I cannot believe it would be that hard to just reimburse the old requirements - only if the player does not have another skill that required the the first GÇô and force the player to put those skillpoints into the direction of the new requirements. Personally, I believe if these skillpoints are not enough for the new requirements to be bad luck GÇô so start training them GÇô but even without that it has more fairness to it than forced to be stuck on the old GÇô now unrelated GÇô skills.
You still have not adressed two of my main issues:
if i would suggest something:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: - How would you propose to find out if an old and now obsolete prerequisite skill has never been used? I highly doubt that it has been logged for every single carrier pilot if he ever sat in a battleship after skilling past BS 3 or every Orca pilot, if he ever sat in a mining barge. Solutions on a case by case basis are not an option due to the manpower requirement on CCP's part
If there are further skills that need this one as prereq. no reimbursement. if not = reinbursement. if someone needs those skills anyway, this person can spent the SP out of the Pool. No loss except a few Mouse clicks.
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: - What about mappings? BS V is a skill that would most likely have been trained at a very effective mapping, most likely Per 10/Wil 4. Would the reimbursed skillpoints have a property attached that they can only be used on skills with primary perception, secondary willpower? Or if you want it more general, will those SP only be useable on skills where you at SOME point had primary 10/secondary 4? Being allowed to use those reallocated SP on skills with a worse mapping than they were gained on would be unfair, so that's not an option. Again, please give a solution that is not case by case.
Two options, the generous and the average:
Generous: expect a good or even perfect mapping as base for the reinbursed SP and sell the possible gain as a generous gift.
Average: Out of the over 100GB statistical Data, CCP collects every day, calculate an average mapping that is in place. If possible even when espacially those kind of Skill ist trained, wich will be reinbursed. Since every one of us isn-¦t able to train every skill with a perfect mapping, the outcome should be pretty near to the real circumstances.
(this Forum thing is driving me crasy. there is not even one statement that can be done on the first freakin attempt. and sometimes even the draft doesen-¦t help am i the only one with that problem?.) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:15:00 -
[810] - Quote
Icke Himal wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: - How would you propose to find out if an old and now obsolete prerequisite skill has never been used? I highly doubt that it has been logged for every single carrier pilot if he ever sat in a battleship after skilling past BS 3 or every Orca pilot, if he ever sat in a mining barge. Solutions on a case by case basis are not an option due to the manpower requirement on CCP's part
If there are further skills that need this one as prereq. no reimbursement. if not = reinbursement. if someone needs those skills anyway, this person can spent the SP out of the Pool. No loss except a few Mouse clicks.
I'm not talking about future use, i'm talking about PAST use to make sure that skill was purely learned as a prerequisite and never useful for the char, no matter how short the time.
|
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:26:00 -
[811] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote: Additionally I cannot believe it would be that hard to just reimburse the old requirements - only if the player does not have another skill that required the the first GÇô and force the player to put those skillpoints into the direction of the new requirements. Personally, I believe if these skillpoints are not enough for the new requirements to be bad luck GÇô so start training them GÇô but even without that it has more fairness to it than forced to be stuck on the old GÇô now unrelated GÇô skills.
You still have not adressed two of my main issues: - How would you propose to find out if an old and now obsolete prerequisite skill has never been used? I highly doubt that it has been logged for every single carrier pilot if he ever sat in a battleship after skilling past BS 3 or every Orca pilot, if he ever sat in a mining barge. Solutions on a case by case basis are not an option due to the manpower requirement on CCP's part - What about mappings? BS V is a skill that would most likely have been trained at a very effective mapping, most likely Per 10/Wil 4. Would the reimbursed skillpoints have a property attached that they can only be used on skills with primary perception, secondary willpower? Or if you want it more general, will those SP only be useable on skills where you at SOME point had primary 10/secondary 4? Being allowed to use those reallocated SP on skills with a worse mapping than they were gained on would be unfair, so that's not an option. Again, please give a solution that is not case by case.
I would bet that CCP actually logged the remaps at least. And there is a skill history even we players can look up what we trained when. On the other hand even if the remaps were not logged, I don't think the remaps would make such a big difference.
As for the prereqs on a case by case basis, I already made a point that it should not even be handled by that, because the player should be the one to decide if the skills he has, have the same value under the new rules and that every single player should have the chance to do that. If it is a character that uses bs he will put the skills back in there anyway.
Also partly as additional answear to TwoStep: In the long run, being able to skill another bs instead of your old one does not hurt, because firstly that does not necessarly give you the support skills to fly that thing, e.g weapon skills. And additionally while I do hope CCP thinks these skilltree changes through and does not touch them every two years, we can almost be certain that after some time that new FOTM ship everyone put those points into, will be nerfed and all starts over again, only at that point no reimbursements need to be made. So a player can shift the problem he faces now into the future, while not getting reimbursements for old prereqs, would stuck him with skills he might not ever want forever and there are more than enough specialised chars out there to justify those reimbursements. |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 19:05:00 -
[812] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Icke Himal wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: - How would you propose to find out if an old and now obsolete prerequisite skill has never been used? I highly doubt that it has been logged for every single carrier pilot if he ever sat in a battleship after skilling past BS 3 or every Orca pilot, if he ever sat in a mining barge. Solutions on a case by case basis are not an option due to the manpower requirement on CCP's part
If there are further skills that need this one as prereq. no reimbursement. if not = reinbursement. if someone needs those skills anyway, this person can spent the SP out of the Pool. No loss except a few Mouse clicks. I'm not talking about future use, i'm talking about PAST use to make sure that skill was purely learned as a prerequisite and never useful for the char, no matter how short the time.
me neither (or better: i talk of past, presence and future).
If one needs this skills, one will retrain them or reactivate them out of the pool. If not, then not. it-¦s simply as that. Don-¦t get me wrong but you can argue as circumstential as you like. But on a way to find a consense, every one has to make confessions.
Or would you say because a char mined a few hours, because his Orca skills forced him to train Mining, would disqualify him from getting a reinbursement, even if the player finds out that Mining isn-¦t the way he want to spend the Gametime? Same applies for skills of other professions. That, i would consider a radical view. especially when (for this particular example) somebody just would make an Mining Alt , or would have trained mining only up to lvl I-III instead of lvl IV. Or this, or that, or those. If you want to put it that way, no one should get a reimbursement but the change shouldn-¦t be made either. But that is not the goal, or is it?
And when you awnser on that, i-¦d be very interested to read your opinion on the statistical evaluation of the trining times/mapping setups as well. |
Angry Mustache
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:29:00 -
[813] - Quote
Has CCP considered that this skill change for carriers makes attribute remapping extremely cumbersome? the need to train JDO before the actual carrier skill means that there has to be an additional Int/per remap wedged before the Per/will remap needed to train carriers itself. As such it becomes much more difficult to say, convert a freighter alt into a carrier alt, as you would have to first remap into int/per to train up the jump skills.
Or say, a player who has decided to train for carriers from his existing battleship would need to remap twice to avoid losing upwards of 17 days of training time.
While i understand CCP wants to gate player ship progression to an extent, please also realize your current attribute system is poo and most of the skill changes described for tech 2 ships might increase the training time needed to get into those ships because your Training time estimates made no distinction between INT/MEM skills and PER/WILL skills.
What this does mean is that a dedicated training alt will be able to fly tech 2 ships even faster than progressing "mains" as they can afford to stay on a INT mem remap longer to train up the Tech 2 pre reqs. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:52:00 -
[814] - Quote
Angry Mustache wrote:Has CCP considered that this skill change for carriers makes attribute remapping extremely cumbersome? the need to train JDO before the actual carrier skill means that there has to be an additional Int/per remap wedged before the Per/will remap needed to train carriers itself. As such it becomes much more difficult to say, convert a freighter alt into a carrier alt, as you would have to first remap into int/per to train up the jump skills.
Or say, a player who has decided to train for carriers from his existing battleship would need to remap twice to avoid losing upwards of 17 days of training time.
While i understand CCP wants to gate player ship progression to an extent, please also realize your current attribute system is poo and most of the skill changes described for tech 2 ships might increase the training time needed to get into those ships because your Training time estimates made no distinction between INT/MEM skills and PER/WILL skills.
What this does mean is that a dedicated training alt will be able to fly tech 2 ships even faster than progressing "mains" as they can afford to stay on a INT mem remap longer to train up the Tech 2 pre reqs.
Hi,
do you think the Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration skill is a better option? That would require Logistics to 5 though. It would at least be Will/Per, so maybe better then Int/Mem. To convert a freighter alt into a carrier pilot is actually not a bad idea and a freighter alt might also need jumpskills at some point. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
615
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:11:00 -
[815] - Quote
Angry Mustache wrote:Has CCP considered that this skill change for carriers makes attribute remapping extremely cumbersome? the need to train JDO before the actual carrier skill means that there has to be an additional Int/per remap wedged before the Per/will remap needed to train carriers itself. As such it becomes much more difficult to say, convert a freighter alt into a carrier alt, as you would have to first remap into int/per to train up the jump skills.
Or say, a player who has decided to train for carriers from his existing battleship would need to remap twice to avoid losing upwards of 17 days of training time. This can be prevented by making long term goals and planning skills accordingly during certain maps. In the end this helps reward long term planning which isn't a bad thing.
Angry Mustache wrote:While i understand CCP wants to gate player ship progression to an extent, please also realize your current attribute system is poo and most of the skill changes described for tech 2 ships might increase the training time needed to get into those ships because your Training time estimates made no distinction between INT/MEM skills and PER/WILL skills.
What this does mean is that a dedicated training alt will be able to fly tech 2 ships even faster than progressing "mains" as they can afford to stay on a INT mem remap longer to train up the Tech 2 pre reqs. Mains I would think would be in a better position as they have the ability to fill in year long maps with skills for the variety of ships and tasks that main would be expected to fulfill. Alts on the other hand would have shorter plans which may make training out of map occur more often. |
Babbet Bunny
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:12:00 -
[816] - Quote
Why do Advanced Spaceship Command level 1-4 still exist as everything requires 5 now? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 00:46:00 -
[817] - Quote
Icke Himal wrote: me neither (or better: i talk of past, presence and future).
If one needs this skills, one will retrain them or reactivate them out of the pool.
Now that's just bull. Even with my 12M SP I have skills that i learned and tried out at some point that i would happily give up if I could reinvest those SP elsewhere. With the AI patch i would gladly give up my Alt's heavy drones skill (actually probably even without) despite it having been useful at some point.
Likewise a capital pilot that was not raised basically offline as a dedicated alt will certainly have flown a battleship to make use of the skill while it was the biggest ship type he could fly. Why should he be allowed to lose a skill that was useful to him at some point?
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 00:54:00 -
[818] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Angry Mustache wrote: Or say, a player who has decided to train for carriers from his existing battleship would need to remap twice to avoid losing upwards of 17 days of training time.
This can be prevented by making long term goals and planning skills accordingly during certain maps. In the end this helps reward long term planning which isn't a bad thing.
Always those wisecrackers that apparently never even used Evemon.
Please genius, show me how you are planning to move from battleship (and consequently a PER/WIL mapping) to the new carrier skill within a year without spending a bonus remap. I'm even being unrealistically generous and assume you can immediately spend your free remap since you have been skilling with that PER/WIL remap for a year.
And no, you are not allowed to assume that you skilled jump drive for your battleship! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
615
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 01:05:00 -
[819] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Angry Mustache wrote: Or say, a player who has decided to train for carriers from his existing battleship would need to remap twice to avoid losing upwards of 17 days of training time.
This can be prevented by making long term goals and planning skills accordingly during certain maps. In the end this helps reward long term planning which isn't a bad thing. Always those wisecrackers that apparently never even used Evemon. Please genius, show me how you are planning to move from battleship (and consequently a PER/WIL mapping) to the new carrier skill within a year without spending a bonus remap. I'm even being unrealistically generous and assume you can immediately spend your free remap since you have been skilling with that PER/WIL remap for a year. And no, you are not allowed to assume that you skilled jump drive for your battleship! Funny thing, actually I did. Black ops training kinda necessitated some jump skills. Though really to your question, many who would train for those ships and did the relevant parts on separate maps probably already did them with the thought that they would be useful for the ship as worthwhile supports. They then do the per/will portion. If not then they planned poorly in regard to ship effectiveness (WH carrier pilots being an exception to this). Which still still falls under my statement of rewarding proper planning, or are you suggesting getting into a carrier with subpar skills is something that one should be doing?
If you just decided out of the blue to train a carrier from a BS, and thus may not have worried about maxing certain now necessary skills, how were you planning on avoiding the multiple attribute sets to begin with, old prerequisites or new? |
Shinzann
Dead poets society The Laughing Men
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 02:16:00 -
[820] - Quote
As a bittervet I'm only slightly irked at "making it too easy" to get into bigger hulls. (You still need your support skills anyways, right?)
What I'm more concerned about would be CCP removing or nerfing the ship bonuses on battleships, cruisers and so on. Then I'll feel irked about my four battleship skills at 5, etc., etc., etc....
Also rather glad I'm not too invested in making anything smaller than Itty 5 from the look of things too... |
|
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
53
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 02:30:00 -
[821] - Quote
Two step wrote:It hurts because if your current FOTM ship gets nerfed, you can instantly cross-train into a new race. Though one could argue that the almost negligible racial skill pre-reqs do this anyway. What might stop you trivially cross-training (for T1, at least) are the weapon skill trees and the actually training time of the hull you're crossing into.
Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Icke Himal
IHU Holding
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 06:48:00 -
[822] - Quote
Seems you didn-¦t get my point. Anyway, in the end, there are always multiple opinions. Besides that, i-¦d say everything what is to say, has been said, atleast once in that "Threadought" (kinda like that word). |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 08:55:00 -
[823] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: If you just decided out of the blue to train a carrier from a BS, and thus may not have worried about maxing certain now necessary skills, how were you planning on avoiding the multiple attribute sets to begin with, old prerequisites or new?
We're really NOT talking about characters planned from the start to fly carriers. That species probably never sees space before they actually sit in their capital, or do they?
Currently, coming from BS I could simply train the ship command parts of carriers, just in case I ever get an opportunity to sit in one, remap to INT/MEM, train the remaining skills to round out my BS and then train anything i feel relevant for my potential carrier pilot career.
I really can't see that working after the patch.
Bringing up black ops doesn't really help in this discussion, how many people really fly black ops? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 10:22:00 -
[824] - Quote
I really do not see why my (super-)carrier alt would even have the weapons skills to make use of the darn battleship skill thus I will not train them off course. That would pretty much beside the point of training a dedicated alt-char.u |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 10:46:00 -
[825] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:I really do not see why my (super-)carrier alt would even have the weapons skills to make use of the darn battleship skill thus I will not train them off course. That would be pretty much beside the point of training a dedicated alt-char.
That's why I said something along the lines of 'unless it's a dedicated Alt char pretty much trained offline' in my earlier posts.
We're currently talking about regular battleship pilots thinking about taking the next step towards capitals. Natural character progression and stuff (yeah i know it's really not en vogue anymore) , not all that Alt char bull. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 11:10:00 -
[826] - Quote
I have an alt to fly freighters (lvl 5). That alt has Advanced Spaceship Command 4, the jumpskills to 5 and is in the porcess of training the Jumpfreighter skill to 5. Why can I not get the - never to be used - racial industrial skill reimbursed to (be forced to) put in into either JF 5 or Advanced Spaceship Command 5? It does not have any other skill that requires racial Industral to 5 and there is no ship that requires the skill. Maybe if it was a Gallente freighter, but the requirements get changed after the patch, so even if after the patch a player wants a freighter char making use of an Iteron 5, he is in now way forced to skill the Industrial lvl to 5.
This character could care less about the changes, because it will be able to fly everything in some far away future anyway. But I would like for CCP to agnize that they induced specialised altchars into the game - by design or by fault is for them to decide (in fact they did already, since they started that sidekick campaign) - and to take action accordingly.
Again, I am not voting for reimbursements every time a ship gets it's bonuses changed, but for reibursements because of how the skilltree is changed (giving new characters a definitive advantage in trainingtime spent for the same usability).
Also, I even think it is a by far cleaner solution to force the characters to skill the new prereqs, because in most cases the skillpoints reimbursed would be more than enough to retrain the new prereqs anyway. In the few cases that is not enough (eg. my Freighter-alt),the character would still be rewarded for my additional training time by having to train a very usefull skill.
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:That's why I said something along the lines of 'unless it's a dedicated Alt char pretty much trained offline' in my earlier posts.
We're currently talking about regular battleship pilots thinking about taking the next step towards capitals. Natural character progression and stuff (yeah i know it's really not en vogue anymore) , not all that Alt char bull.
I see, but would a character like that not by design have a very hard time to make very good use of the remaps, given that to use a BS it has to have quite a few support skills within 3 different remaps anyway? Given that u actually want to use that char, the new requirements for carriers do not make it particularly harder than it was before. |
Katy Lied
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 11:37:00 -
[827] - Quote
I must say I'm a bit pis*ed off regarding the about-face on when these skill changes were coming in. In Dev blogs late last year it was said that these changes were coming not with Retribution, but not too long after and "if you want the maximum skill reimbursement from these changes you better move your @ss now." - to paraphrase at least 2 Devs.
So what did I do? Remapped 8+ accounts to Per/Will so I could catch all the racial destroyer and BC skills when they came. I threw away their then-current re-maps, many of which had only been in place a couple months. I trained all the pre-reqs ready for the changes only to find out that now CCP have decided to hold it off until Winter 2013? I'm reading that this is to prevent the huge wave of tears and gnashing of teeth from those who can't be bothered and/or aren't literate enough to read and interpret decent sized blogs as they come out.
Fine... but I threw away 8+ remaps for something that Fozzie said was 'concrete'. My training plans for these toons has now been dictated to me by CCP for at least the next year... unless I blow more remaps to get them back where they were.
Here's hoping for a re-map gift for the tenth anniversary so I can recoup a little... cos I'm a bit mad bro. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 11:40:00 -
[828] - Quote
It says summer 2013, right? |
Katy Lied
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 11:48:00 -
[829] - Quote
Ok so it's Summer 2013 (I should learn to read and interpret.... nvm). Anyway, it's still many months away, I still blew re-maps I didn't have to at the time, so I'm still a bit pis*ed. 8+ remaps dumped after just a couple months at the word of Devs is still heavy ****. |
fenistil
Defensive Parameter The Mandalorians
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 12:55:00 -
[830] - Quote
never mind O_o -á. |
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Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
85
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 19:19:00 -
[831] - Quote
My initial understanding of the dev blog was as follows:
I train Amarr Carrier to level 1, as per the current prerequisites. After the change, I still have Amarr Carrier at 1, and all of the prerequisites. So if I did not have jump drive operation to 5, jump drive cal to 3, jump fuel cons to 4, etc, I will have those after the change.
Then, the first post linked to this post, which, although labelled as "clear" is anything but. My new understanding of the change is as follows:
I train Amarr Carrier to level 1, as per the current prerequisites. After the change, I still have Amarr Carrier at 1, but none of the new prerequisites. So if I did not have jump drive operation to 5, etc, I still won't have any of that, however I will still be able to magically fly amarr carriers.
The same applies to all other nested skill requirements. If I have the skill now I will have it after, although I may not have the requirements to have trained that skill. So if I can fly a battleship now and don't have destroyers trained, I can still fly the battleship after but will have a missing destroyer prerequisite.
So, basically I want to know if I'm right in my second understanding of all of this. It seems broken to me to allow people to use ships they have not trained the prerequisites for. It seems much less broken to give them all the prerequisites, although people who trained the appropriate levels already may be a little salty about having others get free skill points (I don't really care about their feelings, because new players are going to have to spend a lot more time specializing than we are with destroyers and battlecruisers, I don't see any reason older players shouldn't have something to whine about too. Not to mention handing out the prerequisite skills would benefit me, and I'm a greedy so-and-so). Alternatively, I don't mind the idea of not letting someone into a ship till they've trained all the prerequisites, "fly it before fly it after" be damned.
Opinions on game design aside, I mostly just want to know which it is so I can adjust my training plans accordingly. |
Tairon Usaro
ZERO T0LERANCE RAZOR Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 20:07:00 -
[832] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships.......... If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints. We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change.
This is exactly the attitude that killed sandbox MMOs. Want an example ? Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, let everyone become a Jedi, why not ? Lets make it a starter profession! Who gives something about the stupid nerds, who spent months on unlocking their final goal? we are not taking it away from them, we are just giving it to anybody else also ...... nobody wants to be a moisture farmer, everybody wants to be an iconic hero.... NOT
Giving everybody the ferrari, does not make everybody special, but it just makes the ferrari a mediocre car for anybody, for the ones who had to work hard for it and for those that just picked it up from the birthday box.
I understand that EVE has a legacy problem, but dumbing down existing legacy branches is not the solution. CCP always believed in orthogonal skill branches, allowing newbies to compete with vets by opting for these newly introduced orthogonal branches. Example ? While it does not make sense for a noob to directly go for a titan, it is feasable to skill for a dictor or hictor or neuters, the crucial part in countering supercaps......
Trimming the legacy branches to open them up for noobies will - to my perspective - not solve the problem but even enfore the decay. It nullifies the time investment of veterans, thus it will alienate them from EVE, because CCP obviously shows no repect to their investment. Furthermore, it takes away long time goals from the game, thus in the mid term perspective, it will even alienate all noobies, because they have no long time goal anymore.
CCP should be very very carefull about introducing new or enhancing or extending exsisting legacy branches in the skill tree, because if a new player gets the impression that he will never ever be on a par with a veteran, he will lose interest in the game. Orthogonal skillbranches were and will be the solution. While i reckognize the subcap tiericide programm as such effort, i can not follow with the proposal for caps.
Please reconsider. Caps and supercaps are established and quite well designed (now after years of tweaking) legacy branches. Dont mess with them, just because you think, it would be cool for new player acquisiton to give them an easier access to caps and supercaps. Maybe for one marketing campaign straw fire it will, but the mid term damage will outweigh any benefit. Battleship V should stay integral part of the requirement |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 20:07:00 -
[833] - Quote
Vrykolakasis wrote:I train Amarr Carrier to level 1, as per the current prerequisites. After the change, I still have Amarr Carrier at 1, but none of the new prerequisites. So if I did not have jump drive operation to 5, etc, I still won't have any of that, however I will still be able to magically fly amarr carriers. This one is correct.
You are quite the greedy one. ^_^
I would prefer to get old prereqs reimbursed, but forced to train new prereqs. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 21:56:00 -
[834] - Quote
Tairon Usaro wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Onyx Nyx wrote:I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships.......... If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints. We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change. This is exactly the attitude that killed sandbox MMOs. Want an example ? Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, let everyone become a Jedi, why not ? Lets make it a starter profession! Who gives something about the stupid nerds, who spent months on unlocking their final goal? we are not taking it away from them, we are just giving it to anybody else also ...... nobody wants to be a moisture farmer, everybody wants to be an iconic hero.... NOT Giving everybody the ferrari, does not make everybody special, but it just makes the ferrari a mediocre car for anybody, for the ones who had to work hard for it and for those that just picked it up from the birthday box. I understand that EVE has a legacy problem, but dumbing down existing legacy branches is not the solution. CCP always believed in orthogonal skill branches, allowing newbies to compete with vets by opting for these newly introduced orthogonal branches. Example ? While it does not make sense for a noob to directly go for a titan, it is feasable to skill for a dictor or hictor or neuters, the crucial part in countering supercaps...... Trimming the legacy branches to open them up for noobies will - to my perspective - not solve the problem but even enfore the decay. It nullifies the time investment of veterans, thus it will alienate them from EVE, because CCP obviously shows no repect to their investment. Furthermore, it takes away long time goals from the game, thus in the mid term perspective, it will even alienate all noobies, because they have no long time goal anymore. CCP should be very very carefull about introducing new or enhancing or extending exsisting legacy branches in the skill tree, because if a new player gets the impression that he will never ever be on a par with a veteran, he will lose interest in the game. Orthogonal skillbranches were and will be the solution. While i reckognize the subcap tiericide programm as such effort, i can not follow with the proposal for caps. Please reconsider. Caps and supercaps are established and quite well designed (now after years of tweaking) legacy branches. Dont mess with them, just because you think, it would be cool for new player acquisiton to give them an easier access to caps and supercaps. Maybe for one marketing campaign straw fire it will, but the mid term damage will outweigh any benefit. Battleship V should stay integral part of the requirement
There's some truth in what you're writing, but the thing is: it doesn't really apply to this patch.
For one thing, the intention fo the patch is not making life easier for newbies but cleaning up the mess that skill trees became a little bit.
For another, intentions aside, the effect of the patch for newbs is really not all that spectacular:
- most prominently, the Orca gets a lot easier to train. That thing is REALLY not a typical newbie ship, it's a ship for booster ALTs - Battleships get easier to sit in. I maintain that a few days PALE in comparison to the almost 200 days it takes to fly a battleship WELL - capital ships got easier to sit in. Again, the effect pales in comparison to akills needed. Moreover the new skillset is not even useful for ALL capitals in ALL applications. And again the change is catered towards cross-skilling or offline skilling, as there are no useful skills in the prerequisites for flying things while skilling up - as opposed to the former BS V.
|
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 07:44:00 -
[835] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:stoicfaux wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote: I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.
Geez Louise. You aren't losing anything with the prereq changes. Asking for reimbursement for BS V makes as much sense as graduating from a university, working in your field for a decade and then asking for a tuition refund for a few credit hours when your university changes the prereqs to one of the courses you took. edit: removed quote spam You miss the point here. What I lose is all that training time spent on something I no longer need as a requirement. I would never have trained those skills had they not been required.
ummm... did you enjoy flying capitals in the meantime ? |
ZOGYBOY
NIGHTMARE FACTORY INC Unclaimed.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:58:00 -
[836] - Quote
Can CCP make a poll like the ones before and ask players if they really whant this change or is it allready to late and CCP cannot undo this? Seems a little bit odd this change for me. It was fine as it was and everybody got used to skill training as it is.
I thought CSM allready purposed a massive player vote until now. |
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:13:00 -
[837] - Quote
Okay, 42 pages of arguing... and it seems the 'veterans' are bitter again.
When people are almost crying about how bad is to be a veteran in this game my blood is almost boiling.The 'noobs' will catch up with you? Great. Go suck vacuum. I hate that part of this game. I cry for you really. Flying billion ISK ships, and making tons of money an hour could be sooo hard on you.
I am not a new player, got 20 mill-ish skill points. Problem is, I am not an 'alt'. This is the guy I am playing with, I try to make ISK with and pay to CCP to train. I can not even finish a lvl 4 mission without help yet.
'CCP' said I can compete with the veterans if i specialize on something, so I did. Spent a lot of that train time on leadership skills and a lot on becoming an Orca pilot.
I can fly an Orca, and give leadership bonus. Minmatar ships only, as these many SPs does not give you the luxury to cross train - so the whole destroyer and battlecruiser skill issue is irrelevant for me. The command ship changes will not hurt me, as Weapon Upgrades V (while it was a pain to train) is a ussefull skill. But I do feel sorry for those who trained Logistics V for the other type of command ships...
But 1.024 million skill points on Mining Barge V hurts me. 5% of my whole. On something which will be absolutely irrelevant in the future for me, as I never want to fly an exhumer (or a barge for that matter).
So if I see another smile from a CCP rep, or mod or whoever saying politely but firmly that "screw you we just take your money and hey you got something in return" ... well I might be inclined to take my business elsewhere. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:49:00 -
[838] - Quote
This is just another clear step towards dumbing down the game (read as "making the game more accessible to a wider audience"). Just wait until Fozzie gets his hands on weapons systems?
At this rate, by 2015, a Titan will have BS IV as the only pre-requisite.
I have no problem with CCP trying to draw in a wider audience to increase the shrinking player base (less players with more alts), but wiping out ship pre-requisites is ludicrous.
Now, FC's will have to have the char's entire skillset examined to see if they are fit to fly the ship the pilot shows up in, because guess what CCP, just because someone can climb into the cockpit of a BS and turn the key, does not mean they have any business near that hull. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1157
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 17:09:00 -
[839] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:This is just another clear step towards dumbing down the game (read as "making the game more accessible to a wider audience"). Just wait until Fozzie gets his hands on weapons systems?
At this rate, by 2015, a Titan will have BS IV as the only pre-requisite.
I have no problem with CCP trying to draw in a wider audience to increase the shrinking player base (less players with more alts), but wiping out ship pre-requisites is ludicrous.
Now, FC's will have to have the char's entire skillset examined to see if they are fit to fly the ship the pilot shows up in, because guess what CCP, just because someone can climb into the cockpit of a BS and turn the key, does not mean they have any business near that hull.
Or demand certain certificates? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
JackTheTrade
Scorpio Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 18:49:00 -
[840] - Quote
Well for myself since i mainly live out in High sometimes lowsec. only thing that is kick in b**** is this. Industrial Command Ship
Mining barge skill requirement removed Adding ORE Industrial 3 as requirement
Only reason i have Mining barge is because of orca had they made the announcement 1 month faster i would not have it trained to lv5(useless skill in my case) . Well it would be nice if they could give option when you log in your character, to all who have mining barge skill to lv4/5(if lower than that it can be kept, would not even post here if i had the skill to 4) do they want to keep the skill points(in MB) or not(that case it gets to be converted to free SP). But if someone has exumer skill book injected he gets that option annulled since of prerequests. Or add some bonuses having MB skill. |
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Neugeniko
Insight Securities
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 20:23:00 -
[841] - Quote
Hi CCP Gargant, Given the industrial ship skill changes does this mean industrial ship balancing is due this summer?
Cheers Neug |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
616
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 21:51:00 -
[842] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Now, FC's will have to have the char's entire skillset examined to see if they are fit to fly the ship the pilot shows up in, because guess what CCP, just because someone can climb into the cockpit of a BS and turn the key, does not mean they have any business near that hull. The only difference between now and after the changes so far as BS's go is trading Frig IV and cruiser IV for destroyer III and BC III. Note none of the supports needed to fly a BS efficiently were included in either set of prerequisites. So really, nothing changed.
For cap ships BS V didn't actually help you in any way so not seeing the loss their either.
Also why should CCP have to ensure a person is proficient with a hull before being able to step into it? Since when is denying people the choice to experiment and fail indicative of a sandbox? |
Keine Arvok
Semper Fidelis Foedero
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 12:19:00 -
[843] - Quote
I am concered about the Orca, barge, exumer and Freighter changes
I have trained the current requirement that bonus the ships role
however in this change i will lose the ability to fly the freighter as i do not have advance spaceship command V. i will also lose barge and exumer to the frigate skill
Also will adding ore industrial skill to Orca change or add role bonuses per skill?
I need more details to these changes than "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later" |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1997
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 12:51:00 -
[844] - Quote
Keine Arvok wrote:I am concered about the Orca, barge, exumer and Freighter changes
I have trained the current requirement that bonus the ships role
however in this change i will lose the ability to fly the freighter as i do not have advance spaceship command V. i will also lose barge and exumer to the frigate skill
Also will adding ore industrial skill to Orca change or add role bonuses per skill?
I need more details to these changes than "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later"
If you think that "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later" means that you can't fly it later, no amount of explaining can help you.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1162
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 12:51:00 -
[845] - Quote
Keine Arvok wrote:I am concered about the Orca, barge, exumer and Freighter changes
I have trained the current requirement that bonus the ships role
however in this change i will lose the ability to fly the freighter as i do not have advance spaceship command V. i will also lose barge and exumer to the frigate skill
Also will adding ore industrial skill to Orca change or add role bonuses per skill?
I need more details to these changes than "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later"
No, go back and read the devblog.
"if i can fly it now, i can fly it later" is entirely true. So you won't lose the ability.
The requirements you're concerned about, are the requirements to /inject/ the skill. The only things you need to actually fly a ship are the top level requirements. So, for a freighter: Racial freighter 1, ASC 1. for example FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1997
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 13:06:00 -
[846] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:Okay, 42 pages of arguing... and it seems the 'veterans' are bitter again.
When people are almost crying about how bad is to be a veteran in this game my blood is almost boiling.The 'noobs' will catch up with you? Great. Go suck vacuum. I hate that part of this game. I cry for you really. Flying billion ISK ships, and making tons of money an hour could be sooo hard on you.
I am not a new player, got 20 mill-ish skill points. Problem is, I am not an 'alt'. This is the guy I am playing with, I try to make ISK with and pay to CCP to train. I can not even finish a lvl 4 mission without help yet.
'CCP' said I can compete with the veterans if i specialize on something, so I did. Spent a lot of that train time on leadership skills and a lot on becoming an Orca pilot.
I can fly an Orca, and give leadership bonus. Minmatar ships only, as these many SPs does not give you the luxury to cross train - so the whole destroyer and battlecruiser skill issue is irrelevant for me. The command ship changes will not hurt me, as Weapon Upgrades V (while it was a pain to train) is a ussefull skill. But I do feel sorry for those who trained Logistics V for the other type of command ships...
But 1.024 million skill points on Mining Barge V hurts me. 5% of my whole. On something which will be absolutely irrelevant in the future for me, as I never want to fly an exhumer (or a barge for that matter).
So if I see another smile from a CCP rep, or mod or whoever saying politely but firmly that "screw you we just take your money and hey you got something in return" ... well I might be inclined to take my business elsewhere.
Didn't you notice the Mining Barge V prerequisite earlier, when you started training for an Orca?
Why did you just gloss over it then? Anyway, I mined enough minerals to pay for my Orca, so they barge skill was useful.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
96
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 22:41:00 -
[847] - Quote
Any chance we could get Propulsion Jamming requirement on DICs to be reduced to just IV? Getting Racial Destroyer V is already commitment enough, considering that you only get the one T2 destroyer hull with it. (Unlike the Frigate V and Cruiser V skills, which open up many, many T2 hulls.)
Plus, it'd add some time in between training DICs and HICs. As it is now, the increased skill required (beyond Cruiser V) is just Graviton physics IV. Giving more training time (by having Prop Jam V) gives a pilot more time to spend and learn to fly DICs.
|
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 11:58:00 -
[848] - Quote
Roime wrote:Didn't you notice the Mining Barge V prerequisite earlier, when you started training for an Orca?
Why did you just gloss over it then? Anyway, I mined enough minerals to pay for my Orca, so they barge skill was useful.
You are a missing the point - by a mile. Yes, I hated the skill then too, but it was a prerequisite to fly the ship I wanted. It was a timesink for me, but I understand that CCP makes money from that - the subscription for one more month. But now - after they got my money - they are making the skill irrelevant. And THAT makes me furious. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1168
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 12:43:00 -
[849] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:Roime wrote:Didn't you notice the Mining Barge V prerequisite earlier, when you started training for an Orca?
Why did you just gloss over it then? Anyway, I mined enough minerals to pay for my Orca, so they barge skill was useful.
You are a missing the point - by a mile. Yes, I hated the skill then too, but it was a prerequisite to fly the ship I wanted. It was a timesink for me, but I understand that CCP makes money from that - the subscription for one more month. But now - after they got my money - they are making the skill irrelevant. And THAT makes me furious. No respec, no refund - that is the CCP policy carved in stone. Again, I do understand - our mistakes, wasted skill points are MONEY for them. Additional training times for the specialized characters to do anything else would be nullified if they can just redistribute the skill points on a whim. But that also should mean CCP can not change the rules on a whim. Of course it does not. So they invented this "If you can fly it now..." madness. They can say - hey you still can do all the thing you could before. But now I have a skill at level 5 which count as 'wasted'. As if I made a mistake on my training queue. I did not. Why do I have to pay for it?
Because you've been using the Orca already.
Do you complain when prices are reduced on something you've already bought? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 13:39:00 -
[850] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Do you complain when prices are reduced on something you've already bought?
Do not mix ISK with real money. |
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 14:07:00 -
[851] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Do you complain when prices are reduced on something you've already bought? Do not mix up ISK with real money.
Not sure if he's referring to ingame buying.
Have you ever bought a computer game just to find it got a lot cheaper after a few months? Did you try to get some money back?
Is it possible that you're simply spoiled because CCP are usually really careful about not degrading the value of your already spent game time? We should be glad things got more consistent instead of the constant whining by orca and capital pilots.
|
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 14:39:00 -
[852] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Not sure if he's referring to ingame buying.
Have you ever bought a computer game just to find it got a lot cheaper after a few months? Did you try to get some money back?
Is it possible that you're simply spoiled because CCP are usually really careful about not degrading the value of your already spent game time? We should be glad things got more consistent instead of the constant whining by orca and capital pilots.
In the real world you pay premium to get something early - using your example, you pay a lot more for a game at release day, than a few months later, as you want to play it sooner. Also in the real world there are shops which has a "lowest price guarantied" where they give your money back if you find it cheaper anywhere else. In EVE there is only one point of real money entry: you pay for your subscription (or buy a PLEX ingame thous make someone else pay for it). I am not spoiled, have not got the game time for that. I am just reaching the point - skill point wise - where I can play the game, enjoy it, and not feel inferior to all the veterans. Well, at least not hopelessly inferior. Is now expressing opinions about things considered "constant whining"? Thank you for clarifying that. Problem is, if you do not do that, they think everything is quite alright - and do as they please. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1168
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:06:00 -
[853] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Not sure if he's referring to ingame buying.
Have you ever bought a computer game just to find it got a lot cheaper after a few months? Did you try to get some money back?
Is it possible that you're simply spoiled because CCP are usually really careful about not degrading the value of your already spent game time? We should be glad things got more consistent instead of the constant whining by orca and capital pilots.
In the real world you pay premium to get something early - using your example, you pay a lot more for a game at release day, than a few months later, as you want to play it sooner. Also in the real world there are shops which has a "lowest price guarantied" where they give your money back if you find it cheaper anywhere else. In EVE there is only one point of real money entry: you pay for your subscription (or buy a PLEX ingame thous make someone else pay for it). I am not spoiled, have not got the game time for that. I am just reaching the point - skill point wise - where I can play the game, enjoy it, and not feel inferior to all the veterans. Well, at least not hopelessly inferior. Is now expressing opinions about things considered "constant whining"? Thank you for clarifying that. Problem is, if you do not do that, they think everything is quite alright - and do as they please.
I was equating you 'spending time' on getting everything for the Orca skill, with 'spending money' on something else.
Because you've had the benefit of the Orca, haven't you? You paid what it cost, skill point wise, to get it. Now you're demanding that, because other people will be able to get it 'cheaper', that you should get a refund. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:07:00 -
[854] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Because you've had the benefit of the Orca, haven't you? You paid what it cost, skill point wise, to get it. Now you're demanding that, because other people will be able to get it 'cheaper', that you should get a refund.
Yes, in that context you are right. But hear me out.
A character's usefulness is measured by the things he can do, which comes from skill point. Those are accumulated by training. That takes time. Does not matter how much you play, do not get 'XP' to spend, can not use in-game currency to buy more skills. A character started 5 years ago will always have a 5 years advantage.
So a new player has to specialize. Make a plan, calculate time and skill points to archive what he wants. Re-maps, implants ... If you change the rules mid-flight, that "now you need that, not this" will hurt them.
Yes, the changes are logical, more streamlined ship progression, prerequisites that make sense - those are good. I guess you guys need more T2 destroyer hulls now as everyone has the skill at 5 (I do not, got more important things to train) but that is progress. Lowering the Orca training time by a month? That is stealing a month of subscription from me.
Its not that I made a mistake in my training plan, or did not pay attention and trained destroyer and battlecruiser skills to max to gain a lot of free skill points. I did everything right and still lost a month of training time toward what I want. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
619
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 20:33:00 -
[855] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Because you've had the benefit of the Orca, haven't you? You paid what it cost, skill point wise, to get it. Now you're demanding that, because other people will be able to get it 'cheaper', that you should get a refund. Yes, in that context you are right. But hear me out. A character's usefulness is measured by the things he can do, which comes from skill point. Those are accumulated by training. That takes time. Does not matter how much you play, do not get 'XP' to spend, can not use in-game currency to buy more skills. A character started 5 years ago will always have a 5 years advantage. So a new player has to specialize. Make a plan, calculate time and skill points to archive what he wants. Re-maps, implants ... If you change the rules mid-flight, that "now you need that, not this" will hurt them. Yes, the changes are logical, more streamlined ship progression, prerequisites that make sense - those are good. I guess you guys need more T2 destroyer hulls now as everyone has the skill at 5 (I do not, got more important things to train) but that is progress. Lowering the Orca training time by a month? That is stealing a month of subscription from me. Its not that I made a mistake in my training plan, or did not pay attention and trained destroyer and battlecruiser skills to max to gain a lot of free skill points. I did everything right and still lost a month of training time toward what I want. In trade you got the use of the ship several months earlier than anyone wishing to bypass the prerequisite. You weren't hurt so to speak, as any use of the ship prior to an expansion we don't even have the exact date of would not be possible without your current skills. |
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:13:00 -
[856] - Quote
Yes, and after the "patch" there could be someone who can do all the things I can, but has almost 1,5 mill skill points more toward useful skills. Thank you CCP so much for specializing. Mining IV, Industry V, Mining Barge V - all learned just to be able to help out as a leader, which in itself is already a big commitment skill-wise.
My problem is not the fact that he will get the Orca sooner, but the fact that I my skills will be irrelevant - wont give me any bonus, or bring any new opportunities in play. I became the booster in the corp because I hate mining. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:20:00 -
[857] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:Yes, and after the "patch" there could be someone who can do all the things I can, but has almost 1,5 mill skill points more toward useful skills.
In fact MOST of the players who can do all the things you can with less SP invested, will NOT have those 1.5M saved in more useful skills, for the simple reason that they will probably be 10+M BEHIND you.
Would you please get it that being older is a HUGE bonus in this game? |
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:36:00 -
[858] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Would you please get it that being older is a HUGE bonus in this game? Yes, and that is already my biggest problem with the game. It means that the only way to enjoy this game is buy a character with a lot of skill points. But, you can not rename them (so you are stuck with names like "alttoon4561", and inherit the history of the toon as well. He was a scammer, a thief, a spy? Enjoy, try to join a corporate ...
So yes I want my skill points which were prerequisites refunded. IF I still think those skills are useful I will buy 'em back anyway. If not? Let me spend it on the new prerequisites and the rest as I like. |
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
195
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:48:00 -
[859] - Quote
No, don't be a troll.
All of these changes have thrown my skill planning into havoc and I have lost weeks of training while neural mapped wrong.
Trolls will be trolls, I guess.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:"Removal and refund of all Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill books at the NPC order price."
So, massive headaches = 990,000 ISK refund.
Stop the pretense of doing us favors. So you have a massive headache over some uninjected skillbooks? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
620
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:55:00 -
[860] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:No, don't be a troll. All of these changes have thrown my skill planning into havoc and I have lost weeks of training while neural mapped wrong. Trolls will be trolls, I guess. Tyberius Franklin wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:"Removal and refund of all Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill books at the NPC order price."
So, massive headaches = 990,000 ISK refund.
Stop the pretense of doing us favors. So you have a massive headache over some uninjected skillbooks? I asked because your question was poorly elaborated. You didn't even mention the specific source of your headache (changes in general/specific ships/etc?). This made it hard to make what I suppose you would consider a non-troll response, especially considering the only thing you did mention was the skillbook refund which, unless I'm mistaken only affects uninjected skillbooks. As such if you have the in your head and are training them to maximize the SP redistribution it's a complete non-issue for you.
But that was all you gave, hence my response. |
|
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
195
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 07:36:00 -
[861] - Quote
I think it would be obvious to any non-troll that seeing 43 pages of comments in this thread alone and 108 pages of comments on the original post on the subject (and countless other posts and threads) that I don't give a rat's tushy about a couple skill books lying around.
I don't have any of these skill books lying around. Ok?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:No, don't be a troll. All of these changes have thrown my skill planning into havoc and I have lost weeks of training while neural mapped wrong. Trolls will be trolls, I guess. Tyberius Franklin wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:"Removal and refund of all Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill books at the NPC order price."
So, massive headaches = 990,000 ISK refund.
Stop the pretense of doing us favors. So you have a massive headache over some uninjected skillbooks? I asked because your question was poorly elaborated. You didn't even mention the specific source of your headache (changes in general/specific ships/etc?). This made it hard to make what I suppose you would consider a non-troll response, especially considering the only thing you did mention was the skillbook refund which, unless I'm mistaken only affects uninjected skillbooks. As such if you have the in your head and are training them to maximize the SP redistribution it's a complete non-issue for you. But that was all you gave, hence my response. |
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
195
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 08:04:00 -
[862] - Quote
Putting aside the troll epidemic, I still can't get an answer:
If I have, for example, Command Ships trained before the changes, but not, say, Amarr Cruisers V trained, will I be able to fly the Amarr Command Ships after the changes if I meet the new prerequisites *except* the new ones for Command Ships. Or, MUST I have Amarr Cruisers trained to V BEFORE the changes in order to fly their Command Ships after the changes.
Essentially, the talk has been "if you can fly the **SHIP** before, you can fly it after". I want to know if this really means "if you have the **SKILL** before, you will have it after (and can use the skill to fulfill other requirements just as if you had trained it after the changes even though you don't have all of its new prerequisites)".
Please only answer if you can and do read the entire post, understand what I have written, and know what the "h" "e" double-hockey sticks you are talking about (and preferably are a dev).
The point is not academic. It has serious ramifications to capital and super capital ships as well. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4172
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 08:58:00 -
[863] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne "if you can fly the **[u wrote:SHIP[/u]** before, you can fly it after".
"if you have the **SKILL** before, you will have it after (and can use the skill to fulfill other requirements just as if you had trained it after the changes even though you don't have all of its new prerequisites)".
Both of these statements are correct (although for different reasons).
If you have already injected a skill, the change in prerequisites for the skill will not matter. The skill will function in every way as normal. Ships only check to see if you have the required skills in order to fly them, they don't check that you have the prereqs for those required skills (the nested requirements).
So we're not taking your skills away, and we're not removing any ships from the collection that you are able to fly. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
195
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 09:05:00 -
[864] - Quote
Thanks. Excellent. And from a dev!
(ummmm, something happened to your edited quote of my original question.)
CCP Fozzie wrote:Haifisch Zahne "if you can fly the **[u wrote:SHIP[/u]** before, you can fly it after".
"if you have the **SKILL** before, you will have it after (and can use the skill to fulfill other requirements just as if you had trained it after the changes even though you don't have all of its new prerequisites)".
Both of these statements are correct (although for different reasons). If you have already injected a skill, the change in prerequisites for the skill will not matter. The skill will function in every way as normal. Ships only check to see if you have the required skills in order to fly them, they don't check that you have the prereqs for those required skills (the nested requirements). So we're not taking your skills away, and we're not removing any ships from the collection that you are able to fly.
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 09:20:00 -
[865] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Thanks. Excellent. And from a dev!
(ummmm, something weird happens to the edited quote of my original question.)
Nothing weird at all. People just have to be careful when snipping quotes and Fozzie apparently wasn't :). |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4172
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:13:00 -
[866] - Quote
Fixed Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Takanuro
The Amarrian Expendables Hopeless Addiction
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 11:14:00 -
[867] - Quote
pipin meh wrote:Now that we are getting loads of new sp could we please get cheaper clones.. i want to pvp in frigates without having to pay 20mil everytime i welp
+1
CCP please think about this one :)) Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!
The Amarrian Expendables are Recruiting |
Mcdebris
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 11:54:00 -
[868] - Quote
Frist of all GM, make a sticky where we can react on those idea's and link it in your deff blog.
All content and quote's in this post come from: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74234 -
Rookie ships, no more racial skills, seems oke to me almost nobody uses them annyway. But will you also give out Amarr rookie ships if i dock with my pod in a amarr station, or will i still be getting loved reapers there?
Racial destroyers and Racial battlecruisers, al seems good to me.I understand why you want to make that change.
All T1 Frigates, Cruiser, Battleships flyable at level 1. Rubish. Your idea is that with Amarr Cruiser lvl 1, I can fly all the Tier Cruisers. So basicly you want to strip down the tier lvl on the cruisers. (Maller= tier 3) and give them roles and people need to train for that. The Idea behind the tier system as you inveted it, is that a tier 3 battelship would always be stronger then a tier 1. if the pilots have the same skill set, it was up to people to change the ship with differnet module/skill sets. Now that your tier system is not longer important do you gonna reduce the mineral cost as they are all tier 1 ships??? what you gonna do to keep your tier system alive? Because people entering the highest tier battleship in 2 days is rubish. (I see fitting still takes as long as normal).
Command ships, in short, yea all basic leaderships skills to level 5, Why?? If want to fly a dammnation I dont need siege warfare lvl 5. I dont wish to train it. its
And then the Capital skills. Yea people don't longer need to master the Battleship first before they can get in the biggest ship in the game... Because player need to able to get faster in ships and have more choice abbilty in what they want to fly. But my question is do you realy make it easyer and give the player more freedom and indepence which ship he wants to fly? But you nerf that again in the same patch. For example the dread: why do you add stuff like Tatical reconfirguation to the requirement of a dread? I dont wanna siege with my dread now i need to have 30days of training before I can fly my ship with a module i will never use. For example the carrier: You add al those Jumpdrive skills, I dont want to train them I wanna play docking games with my carrier. For Titan: you add jump portal operation, Ofcourse every titan pilot want one of them, but there are also some that prefer to use guns on there titan, and you require them to have jump drive portal.
So my conclusion, Most of the training time is removed because you downgrade the requirment off the space command skills. But you add training time to make it look equal. But the training time you add is mostly of the most used modules/jumpdrive skills. So you I need to train for dreadnought and train for the modules before i can fly the ship. If i train for a ship, I train for I train Space ship command skill. If i train for a fitting, I train for the modules requirments. If i wanna improve my ship basics, I train elecontronics/ engerineering/Navigation/mechanics. You're mixing that up right now and that is a waste. That effects the players freedom more then you think.
What you're doing right now is making the archon the new drake. I hope your servers can handle that. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4174
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 12:04:00 -
[869] - Quote
Mcdebris wrote:what you gonna do to keep your tier system alive?
We're killing the tier system violently with a smile on our face. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Colorless Void
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:51:00 -
[870] - Quote
I have to say I find these changes redudant an unneccessary. So when these changes take effect - I need to be able to use a Skirmish Warfare link in order to fly my sliepnir? A Field command ship..commonly used for soloing where warfare links are totally unnecessary. So when you said "if I could fly it before, i'll be able to fly it after these changes" you meant... except for your command ships if you don't have leadership training.
What I don't get is why CCP is choosing to revamp skill sets when there is so much more you could be doing for the game. You say that the destroyers and battlecruisers skills will be the same ranks as they were before. So how is my 1.5mil in battlecruisers going to be distributed amongst the racial skills you plan to implement if they are the same rank (meaning the same amount of skillpoints to achieve level V.)
I can say some of these changes actually seem like it will make it EASIER to get into certain ships... but requiring a warfare link module on a field command ship is freaking stupid. So the only way I'll still be able to fly what I could fly before is by training an extra skill that isn't on my plan until I after I get into my carrier. |
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
42
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:30:00 -
[871] - Quote
Colorless Void wrote:[wrong sutff]
Could you please
1.) RTFDB, 2.) sit down and meditate over what you read 3.) read it again, as you seem to have some serious problems 4.) meditate some more 5.) ask someone to explain it to you
6.) and most importantly: NOT write a forum post that makes you look stupid after 40 pages of discussion?
|
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Shirak SkunkWorks
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:31:00 -
[872] - Quote
Colorless Void wrote:I have to say I find these changes redudant an unneccessary. So when these changes take effect - I need to be able to use a Skirmish Warfare link in order to fly my sliepnir? A Field command ship..commonly used for soloing where warfare links are totally unnecessary. So when you said "if I could fly it before, i'll be able to fly it after these changes" you meant... except for your command ships if you don't have leadership training. Nope, Only if you are learning the skill now. The prereqs are for INJECTING a skill, not flying a ship you have the skill for.
Colorless Void wrote:What I don't get is why CCP is choosing to revamp skill sets when there is so much more you could be doing for the game. You say that the destroyers and battlecruisers skills will be the same ranks as they were before. So how is my 1.5mil in battlecruisers going to be distributed amongst the racial skills you plan to implement if they are the same rank (meaning the same amount of skillpoints to achieve level V.) Read the OP again. you get skillpoints for free.
|
Colorless Void
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:32:00 -
[873] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Colorless Void wrote:[wrong sutff] Could you please 1.) RTFDB, 2.) sit down and meditate over what you read 3.) read it again, as you seem to have some serious problems 4.) meditate some more 5.) ask someone to explain it to you 6.) and most importantly: NOT write a forum post that makes you look stupid after 40 pages of discussion?
I did read the dev blog ******. It said the destroyer and battlecruiser skills will be the same rank.. it listed ARMORED WARFARE as required for the absolution in the prereqs. Are you a dev who can actually utilize this or clear this up for me? No? Then why are you replying to me? |
Colorless Void
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:34:00 -
[874] - Quote
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:Colorless Void wrote:I have to say I find these changes redudant an unneccessary. So when these changes take effect - I need to be able to use a Skirmish Warfare link in order to fly my sliepnir? A Field command ship..commonly used for soloing where warfare links are totally unnecessary. So when you said "if I could fly it before, i'll be able to fly it after these changes" you meant... except for your command ships if you don't have leadership training. Nope, Only if you are learning the skill now. The prereqs are for INJECTING a skill, not flying a ship you have the skill for. Colorless Void wrote:What I don't get is why CCP is choosing to revamp skill sets when there is so much more you could be doing for the game. You say that the destroyers and battlecruisers skills will be the same ranks as they were before. So how is my 1.5mil in battlecruisers going to be distributed amongst the racial skills you plan to implement if they are the same rank (meaning the same amount of skillpoints to achieve level V.) Read the OP again. you get skillpoints for free.
I missed the free skillpoints but at the same time - no, the ship requirement itself lists the warefare skil.. so to sit in the hull you need the skill.
I'm not going to be able to sit in it without the skill... |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4183
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 15:13:00 -
[875] - Quote
Colorless Void, if you can fly a ship before these changes, you can fly it afterwards (the only exception being the four Tier 1 Navy Battleships if you only have BS level 1).
Those leadership skills are only required to inject the command ships skill, not to fly the ship. So if you've already got the skill (if you can fly the ship) then it doesn't change anything for you.
And for the battlecruiser and destroyer skills, for every BC and Destroyer you can fly before the patch, you'll be able to fly it after the patch with exactly the same skill level. If you have BC 5 and all the racial cruisers to level 3 or higher (for instance), you'll get all four racial BC skills at level 5.
All of this was in the Dev Blog, I advise reading it over completely.
Colorless Void wrote:As far as i know...any RED X on a prerequisite skill listed on the hull means I can't sit in the hull. This is incorrect Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
Colorless Void
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 15:32:00 -
[876] - Quote
Fozzie I appreciate your reassurance. I'll quit complaining to you. I remain in the belief that this is a completely unnecessary change to the game.. but if I'll still be able to fly my sleipnir without additional training, it doesn't bother me so much.
I've never sat in a ship with red x's in the prereq list at all.. usually because those skills are required to train the "hac" skill or whatever. So pardon my confusion on that aspect and for being a little skeptical. You may have already covered this answer earlier in the posts.. but.. i spend my eve time playing eve normally.. not trying to fish out bits and pieces from 44 pages of forums.
I didn't see a problem with the old system though, if you needed skills to use a mod you found out one way or another. ;)
Thanks Fozzie. |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
41
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:56:00 -
[877] - Quote
Colorless Void wrote: Last edit - I would suggest getting rid of those skills as prereqs for the command ship skill. It doesn't make sense to me that a pilot who will train into command ships in the future will have to train for all of the available command mods, especially if he's only training for a specific race, as indicated by the racial battlecruiser skills. I.E. Claymore which only gets bonuses to skirmish links. Sure it would be nice if he gave the other bonuses as well but lvl IV's would easily do for bonuses especially seeing as that claymore would probably be put in a squad that benefits from lower sig radius, propulsion jamming range, and mwd speed far more than they would benefit from the other bonuses. And again... it most scenarios i've seen field command ships in..they aren't running links anyway..or a gang. It would make more sense to me if Armored Warfare V was required for a damnation..skirmish for a claymore etc. etc. or better yet...not required at all except to put the mods on your ship.
My 2 cents... last i'll be saying on the issue.
Firstly, please do the following: 1. Please get back to your "gather intel" mode. 2. Open the market window, evelopedia or any other appropriate information source in the "SKILLS" section. 3. Look around and read all skill descriptions.
You will notice that there is one set of skills (Armored Warfare, Information Warfare, Siege Warfare, Skirmish Warfare), all Rank 2.
and ANOTHER set of ADVANCED skills (Armored Warfare SPECIALIST, Information Warfare SPECIALIST ... etc).
The first is good for any Squad leader and has nothing to do with gang links or Command Ship bonuses (other than it's the prerequisite to the advanced skills).
Secondly, at the moment, Command Ships are used very often as heavy combat ships. Maybe this role will be filled better in the future by rebalanced HACs? Battlecruisers are now closer to cruisers in regards of firepower/tank.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
620
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 18:41:00 -
[878] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I think it would be obvious to any non-troll that seeing 43 pages of comments in this thread alone and 108 pages of comments on the original post on the subject (and countless other posts and threads) that I don't give a rat's tushy about a couple skill books lying around.
I don't have any of these skill books lying around. Ok? I'm making my last comment to you since you apparently are having issues getting the point, but if you really think you have a legitimate complaint don't you think it best to clearly state that complaint rather than make a semi insulting comment about a reimbursement that doesn't affect you?
As to all the other posts, which ones were stating your concern? The ones praising the change? The ones trying to identify further details? The ones just yelling that it is unneeded or that it dumbs down the game? Again you didn't specify what your complaint was so how would I have any way of knowing which of the issues stated before you were referring to, especially considering you are now saying that what you posted had nothing to do with that?
The answers to what you really meant there could have ranged from RTFDB to something only CCP Fozzie could elaborate on, so I tried to ask a question to clarify. But you did teach me one thing. You are a troll that got me to bite 3 times now. And funny enough I actually addressed your question when you actually asked it in another thread. But I'm a troll. Gotcha. Don't worry, I won't be addressing you anymore. Not worth the effort I'm putting forth. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 21:24:00 -
[879] - Quote
At this point, the only thing I feel about this change, is being distressed that CCP only reacts to rage-posts of people who did not read the Blog and at least some of the Dev posts, instead of participating in the discussion about how the transition is planned (and other valid and calmly voiced suggestions). I do not mean for them to be pushed in a defensive position, but I still feel that feedback can only work in two directions. Even setting aside the very passionate conducted discussion about skill reimbursements, there were a few ideas about how some prerequirements could be changed differently from - or additionally to - CCP's ideas. I would really like to hear the opinion of CCP about those proposals. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
97
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 22:09:00 -
[880] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:At this point, the only thing I feel about this change, is being distressed that CCP only reacts to rage-posts of people who did not read the Blog and at least some of the Dev posts, instead of participating in the discussion about how the transition is planned (and other valid and calmly voiced suggestions). I do not mean for them to be pushed in a defensive position, but I still feel that feedback can only work in two directions. Even setting aside the very passionate conducted discussion about skill reimbursements, there were a few ideas about how some prerequirements could be changed differently from - or additionally to - CCP's ideas. I would really like to hear the opinion of CCP about those proposals. This is true. And it annoys me when I read through the forums and people don't even bother to read what is posted in the op!
Seriously, stop holding peoples' hands so much. I know that some people who come to the forums are lazy and don't read, but just give them a terse answer like "it's in the blog. have a look."
|
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Nakamata
Trinity Council Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 08:35:00 -
[881] - Quote
After reading the new changes to the skills i personally don't like the idea of needing capital ship IV, jump drive operation V jump drive cal III and jump fuel con IV. i feel that, that is pushing how i am supposed to fly the ship instead of letting me decide how i want to fly it. I do think that for a super carrier such as an aeon. Also i dont like how on the rorqual and the dreadnought you need tactical weapon reconfig and industral reconfig to fly the ship. i again feel CCP is telling me how to fly my ship and what to do with it. I do understand that that is how it should be flown. Other then that I do like the skill adjustments lowing the requirements the battleships and the adjustment for the freighters. But please CCP don't do that to the carrier, Rorqual, and the Dreadnought please!! Do it to the super carrier! |
Schadenfraud
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 11:13:00 -
[882] - Quote
Anyone have a link to an updated evemon/evehq for these changes so that I can get things exact? |
Jada Maroo
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
1022
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 12:17:00 -
[883] - Quote
Garai Nolen wrote:
On a similar vein of reducing confusion, any chance on renaming "Capital Ships" and "Capital Industrial Ships" to something like "Capital Spaceship Command" and "Industrial Spaceship Command"? I know those are more verbose but it would make a lot more sense as to where those skills fit in the overall scheme.
Something like this needs to be done. There's no reason to have capital ship skills inconsistent with the new scheme, especially when a simple name change would make it conform. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:35:00 -
[884] - Quote
One could also consider to make the primary requirement the one to inject the ship skillbook, while the secondary requirement still needs to be fullfilled to actually fly it. That would make it slightly easier on the respecs, since e.g. one could stay on Willpower and Percption (hpoefully one had this to train other ships) to train the BO, HIC etc. skills and then respec later to train the navigation and other requirements for those.
Edit: Nevermind that collides with CCP's messed up plan to let players have different skills to fly a ship after the patch. |
Ben ReVerT
Vengance Inc. Renegade Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 16:17:00 -
[885] - Quote
There is one thing i want to ask, my alt can fly a freighter, but they dont have the advanced spaceship command to 5. Is the policy still that if you could fly it before, you can fly it now? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 16:19:00 -
[886] - Quote
Ben ReVerT wrote:There is one thing i want to ask, my alt can fly a freighter, but they dont have the advanced spaceship command to 5. Is the policy still that if you could fly it before, you can fly it now?
Yes. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Nulli Legio
35
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 16:31:00 -
[887] - Quote
slightly annoying in a away as a lot of ppl spent time training LONGER for something thats going to give everyone else a A LOT shorter time to train.
Don't we get some sort of compensation for that? fine we get a skillpoint increase, but in terms of lost time and actually gaining anything more, we get nothing. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 16:57:00 -
[888] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:slightly annoying in a away as a lot of ppl spent time training LONGER for something thats going to give everyone else a A LOT shorter time to train.
Don't we get some sort of compensation for that? fine we get a skillpoint increase, but in terms of lost time and actually gaining anything more, we get nothing.
There are those that think that we were able to enjoy the ship already for x days, weeks, month or years. In my eyes this is unrelated though. Even the skillpoint increase is worthless to mention, since we were able to sit in those ships with the skillpoints we had already. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
42
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 18:48:00 -
[889] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:One could also consider to make the primary requirement the one to inject the ship skillbook, while the secondary requirement still needs to be fullfilled to actually fly it. That would make it slightly easier on the respecs, since e.g. one could stay on Willpower and Percption (hpoefully one had this to train other ships) to train the BO, HIC etc. skills and then respec later to train the navigation and other requirements for those.
Edit: Nevermind that collides with CCP's messed up plan to let players have different skills to fly a ship after the patch.
Actually it mostly collides with their 'if you can fly it now..' policy, which might be the main reason for not doing things in a sensible way.
Sadly. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 19:14:00 -
[890] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Actually it mostly collides with their 'if you can fly it now..' policy, which might be the main reason for not doing things in a sensible way.
Sadly.
I hear you. Well, while I think the "you can fly it now..." stuff is bull, try to imagine the uproar if they would not do it (god forbid one would have to train a week to be back in one's capital again), or if instead they were to just gift us with the skillpoints needed to live up to it (i would organize the uproar, lol). So I can partly understand why they do it. Though I really wish they would have come up with a way that does not leave a mess in the end. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
620
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 20:30:00 -
[891] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:One could also consider to make the primary requirement the one to inject the ship skillbook, while the secondary requirement still needs to be fullfilled to actually fly it. That would make it slightly easier on the respecs, since e.g. one could stay on Willpower and Percption (hpoefully one had this to train other ships) to train the BO, HIC etc. skills and then respec later to train the navigation and other requirements for those.
Edit: Nevermind that collides with CCP's messed up plan to let players have different skills to fly a ship after the patch. Actually it mostly collides with their 'if you can fly it now..' policy, which might be the main reason for not doing things in a sensible way. Sadly. Not seeing how doing this as suggested is more sensible unless you thought the prior prerequisite system made no sense either. |
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
197
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 20:59:00 -
[892] - Quote
It wasn't a snipped quote.
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:(ummmm, something weird happens to the edited quote of my original question.)
Nothing weird at all. People just have to be careful when snipping quotes and Fozzie apparently wasn't :).
|
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
197
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 21:05:00 -
[893] - Quote
I think you might want to wipe that smug smile off your face. A lot of die hard fans don't like this -tieracide-cookie-cutter ship-let's make this WoW- attitude that CCP keeps coming back to even after mass cancelations of subscriptions.
Or, I suppose you will laugh all the way to the bank, as the children flock to the latest easy game to master. (Until they too get bored, and leave en mass.)
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mcdebris wrote:what you gonna do to keep your tier system alive?
We're killing the tier system violently with a smile on our face.
|
Schadenfraud
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 21:17:00 -
[894] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I think you might want to wipe that smug smile off your face. A lot of die hard fans don't like this -tieracide-cookie-cutter ship-let's make this WoW- attitude that CCP keeps coming back to even after mass cancelations of subscriptions. Or, I suppose you will laugh all the way to the bank, as the children flock to the latest easy game to master. (Until they too get bored, and leave en mass.) CCP Fozzie wrote:Mcdebris wrote:what you gonna do to keep your tier system alive?
We're killing the tier system violently with a smile on our face.
Over 50000 people logged in consistently since the first major operation of tiericide is "mass cancellations"?
Eve looks to be in better health than ever and these skill changes are consolidating that. Coupled with the fact that it's getting easier for newbies to get into useful/good ships earlier, there's not a better time to start playing eve, nevermind keep playing. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 21:43:00 -
[895] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:One could also consider to make the primary requirement the one to inject the ship skillbook, while the secondary requirement still needs to be fullfilled to actually fly it. That would make it slightly easier on the respecs, since e.g. one could stay on Willpower and Percption (hpoefully one had this to train other ships) to train the BO, HIC etc. skills and then respec later to train the navigation and other requirements for those.
Edit: Nevermind that collides with CCP's messed up plan to let players have different skills to fly a ship after the patch. Actually it mostly collides with their 'if you can fly it now..' policy, which might be the main reason for not doing things in a sensible way. Sadly. Not seeing how doing this as suggested is more sensible unless you thought the prior prerequisite system made no sense either.
No, this suggestion judges neither the old nor the new prereqs, but instead is about enabling us to use a given remap on skills, that have no use to us until we also train the secondary skills (on another remap in the future perhaps). |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 21:54:00 -
[896] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I think you might want to wipe that smug smile off your face. A lot of die hard fans don't like this -tieracide-cookie-cutter ship-let's make this WoW- attitude that CCP keeps coming back to even after mass cancelations of subscriptions. Or, I suppose you will laugh all the way to the bank, as the children flock to the latest easy game to master. (Until they too get bored, and leave en mass.) CCP Fozzie wrote:Mcdebris wrote:what you gonna do to keep your tier system alive?
We're killing the tier system violently with a smile on our face.
You should think twice about this before posting stupid things. Tiericide is the last thing to dumb down the game.
If you are talking about the skill changes on the other hand, it would be is a rather unrelated matter to tiericide. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
43
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 22:03:00 -
[897] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Actually it mostly collides with their 'if you can fly it now..' policy, which might be the main reason for not doing things in a sensible way.
Sadly. I hear you. Well, while I think the "you can fly it now..." stuff is bull, try to imagine the uproar if they would not do it (god forbid one would have to train a week to be back in one's capital again), or if instead they were to just gift us with the skillpoints needed to live up to it (i would organize the uproar, lol). So I can partly understand why they do it. Though I really wish they would have come up with a way that does not leave a mess in the end.
Yeah, i didn't say it's a decision i can't understand at some level. The implications are just a bit awkward/messy in this case.
I also think, given a grace period, the implementation on ship level could have been pulled off (for instance, it could only be checked on boarding a ship, so super pilots would be somewhat safe). IMO a better system as it allows for better differentiation between ships. |
Kal Rok
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Darkspawn.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 01:42:00 -
[898] - Quote
From the dev blog post: "If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed."
Just want to make sure I understand this. Say I have Min Frig 4/ Min Cruiser 4 and Destroyers/Battlecruisers to 5 and no other racial frig/cruiser skills trained up. Will I end up with a bunch of "free" skill points that would have otherwise gone into racial battlecruisers had I trained those racial frig/cruiser skills? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
620
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 01:52:00 -
[899] - Quote
Kal Rok wrote:From the dev blog post: "If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed."
Just want to make sure I understand this. Say I have Min Frig 4/ Min Cruiser 4 and Destroyers/Battlecruisers to 5 and no other racial frig/cruiser skills trained up. Will I end up with a bunch of "free" skill points that would have otherwise gone into racial battlecruisers had I trained those racial frig/cruiser skills? No, you would have to have NO racial frig or cruiser skills at 3. Having one, which in your case you do, means you get no free SP. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7731
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 11:55:00 -
[900] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:slightly annoying in a away as a lot of ppl spent time training LONGER for something thats going to give everyone else a A LOT shorter time to train.
Don't we get some sort of compensation for that? fine we get a skillpoint increase, but in terms of lost time and actually gaining anything more, we get nothing.
You get the use of the ship before the change. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 15:48:00 -
[901] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You get the use of the ship before the change.
Another one of those? Really? Even someone wanting to be on CSM? I do not care how much time I spent in a ship. The only thing that counts is how much time you spent/will spend on training for it before and after the patch. Period. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 16:52:00 -
[902] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Malcanis wrote:You get the use of the ship before the change. Another one of those? Really? Even someone wanting to be on CSM? I do not care how much time I spent in a ship. The only thing that counts is how much time you spent/will spend on training for it before and after the patch. Period.
Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer?
Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:57:00 -
[903] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer?
Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell.
Given that this is a computer game we are talking about here and that the value we paid for is not the licence for the ship, but being able to log in to use CCP's service and making decisions based on the rules of this service, we should get the chance to revise our decisions based on the new rules of their service. That is all there is to it and nothing more.
Also I find it unhelpful to try and find a real-life comparison for computer game content. The fun with computer games is that there is a set of rules that do not comply exactly with the real world.
I still do not see a reason, why a player should spend more time training on something that another player can accomplish in less time. So if CCP would like to change the time to reach a skill, they should change it for all of us. And I would also say so, if CCP were to prolong the training time of ships instead. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:29:00 -
[904] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer?
Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell. Given that this is a computer game we are talking about here [...]
Indeed.
So you're saying that while we have to accept that in RL costly investments can be worthless (via your interpretation, my 2 years of using my computer have no value, so the 800$ difference between buying it 2 years ago and someone buying it now are worthless) or prerequisites can be changed (yes, i would REALLY have liked to drive 125ccm motorbikes when i was 16, something teens may do today), it is completely unacceptable in something much less important than RL like a computer game?
You seriously need to work on your priorities, mate. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
620
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:32:00 -
[905] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: Given that this is a computer game we are talking about here and that the value we paid for is not the licence for the ship, but being able to log in to use CCP's service and making decisions based on the rules of this service, we should get the chance to revise our decisions based on the new rules of their service. That is all there is to it and nothing more.
This has been contrary to CCP's position for quite a while now. From their standpoint you make the choice to gain a capability and even if that capability is changed to no longer be applicable in some situations, so long as it remains and can be used you retain it. It's no different here that it is in the countless changes that have happened before. |
Kaylee Rei
Ascendant Brokerage Bureau Anonymous
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:41:00 -
[906] - Quote
Would it be possible to give an exact date or countdowns to the date of the change? I have one toon remaining that needs to juggle a remap early for it to be prepared. It would be nice to have a 45 day warning or somesuch, to get last minute training in.
- KR |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:59:00 -
[907] - Quote
uChi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Indeed.
So you're saying that while we have to accept that in RL costly investments can be worthless (via your interpretation, my 2 years of using my computer have no value, so the 800$ difference between buying it 2 years ago and someone buying it now are worthless) or prerequisites can be changed (yes, i would REALLY have liked to drive 125ccm motorbikes when i was 16, something teens may do today), it is completely unacceptable in something much less important than RL like a computer game?
You seriously need to work on your priorities, mate.
Yes. That's my point. In real life we are forced to accept those things already and nothing can be done about it. A computer game should focus on the fun and fairness of it's most basic concepts in my view and thus give us a chance to revise our decisions based on outdated rules. I think that my priorities are sorted, thanks.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: This has been contrary to CCP's position for quite a while now. From their standpoint you make the choice to gain a capability and even if that capability is changed to no longer be applicable in some situations, so long as it remains and can be used you retain it. It's no different here that it is in the countless changes that have happened before.
Thank you for your input. What you say is indeed true. It seems I tend to think it is a difference as to what capability in this case means. While e.g. I can still fly a carrier, does not mean I was ever able to use a battleship (missing supportskills). While this is somewhat beside my point it still has to be considered to understand the following. I was referring to the difference of actual training time it took to reach a given usablility of e.g. a carrier before and after the changes. Before, we needed Battleship V additionally to the jump skills (you were free not to skill them of course, but every capital pilot in their right mind would skill them anyway) and after the change Battleship V will not be needed. As I mentioned above earlier, the joy to be able to use something already, has nothing to do with the training time invested into flying something, since between starting the game and be able to flying a carrier was always the same span of time. But CCP changes this span of time for future players without giving old players the chance to reevaluate their investment of additional time (Battleship 3 to 5 no longer needed). Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:02:00 -
[908] - Quote
Repetition does not make your position any better.
You can stop beating the lasagna now. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:07:00 -
[909] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Repetition does not make your position any better.
You can stop beating the lasagna now.
I like lasagna. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:20:00 -
[910] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same.
So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level).
Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?).
Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:24:00 -
[911] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level). Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?). Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news
No. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
620
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:57:00 -
[912] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level). Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?). Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news No. To elaborate: The command ship skill and racial BC V is what you need to fly command ships. The full prerequisites listed are what will be needed after the change to inject the skill which allows you to fly the ship.
But, you have to train nothing because you already have the command ship skill injected. You will have nothing given to you by way of leadership skills because it isn't needed as you already have the command ship skill. |
Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 01:06:00 -
[913] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:*Chokes*..
All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level). Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?). Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news For the tenth time, the command ships skill does **NOT** need the link skills, it needs the basic leadership skills. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 03:27:00 -
[914] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:Malcanis wrote:You get the use of the ship before the change. Another one of those? Really? Even someone wanting to be on CSM? I do not care how much time I spent in a ship. The only thing that counts is how much time you spent/will spend on training for it before and after the patch. Period. Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer? Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell.
Uh... While I understand you confronting the emorage types over something that really will benefit them (train now and get a bonus SP boost on patch day/conversion day).
I dont like your analogy.
If the "guy selling me a computer" says. "You can turn it on by pressing the on button" then I dont want to find out two weeks later that it changes itself and requires me to buy a dongle to enable it to power on.
And the "National" to "EU" driving licenses are still new, and with a few exceptions, they offer no restrictions or alterations to the national driving test. So that analogy would be more like CCP saying "We are giving your ship a new skin and framework!" and someone getting all upset about it.
To the person complaining. Cruiser 3, BC at whatever level it is, You get racial BC at whatever BC level is at. What is the issue? |
Thalkargro Ndron
Valyrian Stark
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:26:00 -
[915] - Quote
So, as one of the "new players", I've got a couple of things to ask.
Before I ask, just let me say, I realize a lot of you are YEARS invested in this game and your elitist mentality toward the game is somewhat warranted. However, unless you want the game to fade, you need 'noobs' like me. So, please respond/flame/get ********, but understand that I'm only looking for insight into how these changes affect me as a new player.
1. I made what most would consider a "boring" choice, and chose to remap Int/Mem for the first months of my 'life'. This change is going to make me use one of my free remaps sooner in order to get these skills to appropriate levels before the mystical release date, which is "many months" away. Will CCP provide a release date with sufficient time to begin this training, or do I need to have it underway long before the release date is announced to fully capitalize on the skills? (If I remap to Perc/Will, I need 47.5 days to get to Destroyer V/BC V)
2. These changes affect ships skills and not support skills, so other than ensuring I'm not locked in to a single race, what's the greatest benefit to getting Destroyer to 5 and Battlecruiser to 5 before the expansion? I will not be able to fit them properly for months after the patch.
3. Tiericide is a great concept, and I hope it works. It seems as though there are unmatched strengths and weaknesses throughout the hulls, even within a single race. This is not an effort for this expansion, correct? It was mentioned several times, but no details anywhere about ship modifications/rebalancing except for industrials (at least that I understood in my limited knowledge of the game). Since this is the first expansion I will go through, does my current inventory of ships get modified to the new standard upon release, or do I have obsolete equipment once the software drops (e.g. legacy Tristan in inventory new Tristan on the market)?
Thanks |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 09:11:00 -
[916] - Quote
Thalkargro Ndron wrote: 1. I made what most would consider a "boring" choice, and chose to remap Int/Mem for the first months of my 'life'. This change is going to make me use one of my free remaps sooner in order to get these skills to appropriate levels before the mystical release date, which is "many months" away. Will CCP provide a release date with sufficient time to begin this training, or do I need to have it underway long before the release date is announced to fully capitalize on the skills? (If I remap to Perc/Will, I need 47.5 days to get to Destroyer V/BC V)
I asked the same and was told there is no definite answer yet. People are speculating it may be as early as start of may and as late as mid june.
Unless someone from CCP grows the balls to say 'summer patch will definitely be AFTER date x' we're pretty much screwed regarding remap decisions.
Quote: 2. These changes affect ships skills and not support skills, so other than ensuring I'm not locked in to a single race, what's the greatest benefit to getting Destroyer to 5 and Battlecruiser to 5 before the expansion? I will not be able to fit them properly for months after the patch.
There's no meta benefit. If you skill the hulls, you will be able to fly the hulls with full bonuses. As long as you have the very basics covered from your Int/Mem phase (cap skills and t2 tanking mods mostly), sitting in a fully bonused BC a few weeks prematurely is not a terrible decision though.
If your goal is flying battleships exclusively you may wish to consider skipping the remap though or skilling BC III with your current mapping (the *4 multiplier would still make that a worthwhile investment, despite the cringe of skilling unbonused :)).
Quote: 3. Tiericide is a great concept, and I hope it works. It seems as though there are unmatched strengths and weaknesses throughout the hulls, even within a single race. This is not an effort for this expansion, correct? It was mentioned several times, but no details anywhere about ship modifications/rebalancing except for industrials (at least that I understood in my limited knowledge of the game). Since this is the first expansion I will go through, does my current inventory of ships get modified to the new standard upon release, or do I have obsolete equipment once the software drops (e.g. legacy Tristan in inventory new Tristan on the market)?
Tiericide is pretty much complete for T1 frigs, destroyers, cruisers and battlecruisers (with the exception of the former Tier3 BC I think).
There is no vintaging of ships, the modification of Tristans in the frigate tiericide simply changed all existing models to the new ship. Same with destroyers, where i suddenly found a deactivated armor rep on my Coercer, because the low slot containing it was removed (thankfully btw, that thing could really use the 2nd mid). |
Greystorm Darkblade
Valar.Morgulis
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 11:43:00 -
[917] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Summer is Coming
Valar Morghulis |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
155
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 01:42:00 -
[918] - Quote
You can always... *Gasp* Train without remapping. In the grand scheme of things BC 5 isn't going to be 'that' much slower if you aren't remapped, and changing your remap early is probably going to cost you more. So yea, train it now without remap, be safe? Given they first started talking about this skill change OVER A YEAR AGO! It's your own fault at this point. Information has been out there for a long time, and if you are 'new' then it's still your fault for remapping and not researching a little, considering how full the forums have been on discussions, and how many people would have told you if you had asked. |
Thalkargro Ndron
Valyrian Stark
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 07:13:00 -
[919] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:You can always... *Gasp* Train without remapping. In the grand scheme of things BC 5 isn't going to be 'that' much slower if you aren't remapped, and changing your remap early is probably going to cost you more. So yea, train it now without remap, be safe?
22 days different without remapping. That's significant to someone who's been playing for 30 days. That only seems insignificant when you can already fly decent ships. While I could train them unmapped, I could also change them in time, assuming CCP would be willing to give a 45+ release date announcement.
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Given they first started talking about this skill change OVER A YEAR AGO! It's your own fault at this point. Information has been out there for a long time, and if you are 'new' then it's still your fault for remapping and not researching a little, considering how full the forums have been on discussions, and how many people would have told you if you had asked.
Since when do new players know about forums and all of the detritus of a game before they ever play it? When I started playing I was, like most new players, just testing out the game to see if it's worth my time. I'd say that phase is ongoing and my three month purchase of game time is just an extended trial. CCP wants both of our business, your arrogant, elitist attitude and my learning and new excitement about the game.
Honestly, remap or not, people and comments like yours are the only detractors from the game. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
46
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 10:53:00 -
[920] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Given they first started talking about this skill change OVER A YEAR AGO!
Without a definite date that information is and has been rather useless.
Sometimes it's even harmful, as you can see from the poor guy who remapped all his Alts to react (a bit panicky IMO) and is now a bit annoyed as he could easily have waited until his regular remaps were back.
When i remapped my main, i was not aware of the change - like Thalkargo wrote, when you're new you're reading TONS of things about eve (at least I did anyway), mostly guides and forum discussions about things that are unclear to you, though. Probably not Dev blogs and even if, certainly not OLDER dev blogs that don't pertain to a problem you're researching.
At the time i became aware of the change via a new devblog it was still clear that it was a long-term announcement and details would follow. At that time i had planned a remap to per/wil at some point anyway, so it wasn't a big deal for me, but then i had to take a 4 month break due to RL intervening. When I returned i found my tank+DPS combo rather useless due to the AI change and reacted by burning a remap on my DPS alt for spider skills, so i can run missions decently again in about 2-3 months.
Now my main's regular remap will be around in about 5 weeks (i'm at int/mem right now), which SHOULD be enough to cover for BC V (in early may) as long as CCP doesn't rush things (which is basically all i want to get confirmed by CCP, that they won't rush their summer update), so it doesn't really make sense not to round out my few remaining int skills for this mapping phase, burn a remap and map to a attribute set that i will most likely use for at least a year anyway.
Alt situation is similar, remap coming up a few days later, but BC IV already skilled, so pretty similar end date. |
|
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 16:41:00 -
[921] - Quote
This has probably been answered previously but,
if I have a Nyx sitter, sitting in a Nyx who has, say, jump fuel conservation 1... what happens on patch day?
Guessing I can log him in but once he ejects from the ship, he can't get back in until he trains fuel4/cal3 etc. ? |
Tilio Janau
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 17:02:00 -
[922] - Quote
The changes looks good to me my only question is like the player above how are the skills gonna be sorted for players that can currently fly a ship/sit in a ship that no longer meet the requirements after the update.
will it be a case of if you can fly it today you can still fly it tomorrow i.e getting some skills for free or will it be a case of having to retrain the new skills first? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
46
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 17:10:00 -
[923] - Quote
Tilio Janau wrote:The changes looks good to me my only question is like the player above how are the skills gonna be sorted for players that can currently fly a ship/sit in a ship that no longer meet the requirements after the update.
will it be a case of if you can fly it today you can still fly it tomorrow i.e getting some skills for free or will it be a case of having to retrain the new skills first?
The question has been answered...extensively...multiple times.
And you should really look up the meaning of 'i.e.', i.e. you have no clue what it means. |
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 17:27:00 -
[924] - Quote
Sorry for not spending my day reading through all 900 posts.
Maybe making the DevBlog a bit clearer on these issues would have saved some questions. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1182
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 19:42:00 -
[925] - Quote
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy wrote:Sorry for not spending my day reading through all 900 posts.
Maybe making the DevBlog a bit clearer on these issues would have saved some questions.
How about reading just the dev posts then?
You know you can click the blue bar on a dev post to be taken to the next one, right? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 20:37:00 -
[926] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: How about reading just the dev posts then? You know you can click the blue bar on a dev post to be taken to the next one, right?
I did not, ty.
However... I might be dense but I still don't get how this works. It has been stated multiple times that if you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after the patch.
CCP will ADD new prerequisites to the carriers and supercarriers, namely: (" - Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite - Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)".
So a character with jump drive operation 1 and the jump fuel conservation skill uninjected can currently fly, say, an archon. How is it possible for him to fly it after? The only sp they are giving away are for the destroyer and BC skills.
To be honest, i don't rly care as both my cap toons have cal5 and fuel 4/5... just curious about the mechanics of it all.
|
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 20:45:00 -
[927] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Marsaac wrote:Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me. You will still be able to fly it. The top skill in the tree is the only one that actually determines your ability to fly a ship. The Fenrir before and after will require: Primary: Advanced Spaceship Command Level I Secondary: Minmatar Freighter Level I So you can fly it even though you do not have Advanced Spaceship Command at Level V.
Ok lol, nvmd. Missed this on my first read-through :P |
Max Brutix
Amarrian Special Forces Angel Causalities Demolition Crew
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 22:52:00 -
[928] - Quote
Skill changes are potentially good, however I am questioning what is the real reason for the reduction of the training time for most ships? If the reason is to help new players getting into ships quicker, that is good. If the reason is helping lowering inflation and eventually deflate ship prices, that is good. If the reason is to increase the sales of PLEX, that is bad. I am a bit suspicious on this last item because new players will not have the isk for a battleship. What is the point of accelerating access to larger and unaffordable ships?
I have to question if mr. -- person in charge -- is thinking clearly or if there is an agenda not favourable to eve players behind this.
Any personal attack will be responded in kind. |
Max Brutix
Amarrian Special Forces Angel Causalities Demolition Crew
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 23:03:00 -
[929] - Quote
I have a question...
After the change it is stated that if I could fly a ship I will still be able to fly it...
Now this is the scenario post change: the ship I am flying requires additional skills. I can still fly it and all is good. I get podded. What happens now? Will the new clone be able to fly the same ship or will it require to train the missing skills?
It might seem a stupid question but unless I get a response I am not totally comfortable. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 08:02:00 -
[930] - Quote
Max Brutix wrote:I have a question...
After the change it is stated that if I could fly a ship I will still be able to fly it...
Now this is the scenario post change: the ship I am flying requires additional skills. I can still fly it and all is good. I get podded. What happens now? Will the new clone be able to fly the same ship or will it require to train the missing skills?
It might seem a stupid question but unless I get a response I am not totally comfortable.
This was answeared by a Dev in this thread already, please go to the first post and click on the blue arrows to reach the next Dev answears. If you still have questions after reading all of them carefully, please come back here. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8. |
|
Nuravictus
Abraxsys Get Off My Lawn
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 17:23:00 -
[931] - Quote
I have not read through all 47 pages of posts but here is my main concern.
(Concern) My concern is this, with the changes to command ships, as far as the ships themselves they are fine. However the mind links (Implants) are what comes into concern. As it is now the command link bonuses are a focused slot 10 implant and only boost one of the four total but with the new changes we are now bonuses on two of the 4. This means we are in need of a change in the way the implant works. Maybe make the implant boost all or make it boost the two effective that the command ships. Having a focused implant worked when we had focused command ships, now that they have split
(Personal grip) The change in ship requirements are making many training for everything shorter, despite what CCP is saying I can train into and effectively fly every ship faster (well I could if I couldn't fly them all already). This is irritating but certainer not my primary concern but for that, it is rather irritating my over 65 million skill points don't count for nearly as much as they use to. I am all for helping people specialize quicker but do that through t1 ships and let them work into t2 later on. They did pretty well accomplish that mission with the change to t1 ship balancing and terricide.
Leave the t2 ship and capital ship requirements alone! |
Rannxz Janau
Open Fire Game Guys
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:46:00 -
[932] - Quote
If I have the Providence trained and this expansion goes through, will I get Advanced Spaceship Command V given to me? I only have Level I trained on it so far, but I see that once the patch goes through it will require Level V. Or will I not be able to fly the Providence?
I'm sorry if this is reposted, I'm a new player really (only 4 months old) and just curious, thanks! |
Gosti Kahanid
Farstriders Apocalypse Now.
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 09:39:00 -
[933] - Quote
Rannxz Janau wrote:If I have the Providence trained and this expansion goes through, will I get Advanced Spaceship Command V given to me? I only have Level I trained on it so far, but I see that once the patch goes through it will require Level V. Or will I not be able to fly the Providence?
I'm sorry if this is reposted, I'm a new player really (only 4 months old) and just curious, thanks!
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64158/1/SkillFreighter.jpg No. As you can see on the picture above, you only need "Acvanced Spaceship Command" at 1 to fly the Providence. With the changes you need to train ist to V to inject the Freighter-Skill (which CCP schould really look after), but to sit into a ship, you only need the Skill in the top |
Teral Mavolen
Les Veilleurs Les Veilleurs de Mondes
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 05:57:00 -
[934] - Quote
The WORST (and not the great) ship skill changes of summer 2013
After the update the following will be required to fly a Rorqual : - Industrial Command Ship 3 - Industrial Reconfiguration 1
Today I can fly Rorqual (mainly to move it or use Clone Vat Bay)
After the update the following will be required to fly a Caldari Dreadnought : - Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration 1
Today I can fly Phoenix
After the update the following will be required to fly a Caldari Carriers and Supercarriers : - Capital Ships requirement increased from 3 to 4 - Jump Fuel Conservation 4
Today I can fly Chimera and Wyvern
So, to be able to use the ships I was able to fly before the summer update do will have to spend more than 45 days of training queue and 70.500.000 ISK ???
What the hell is that ???
You did not add Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration as a prerequisite for Carrier.... is that a mistake ??
Otherwise it should represent 83 days of training queue and 124 000 000 ISK to fly something I can already fly !
|
Teral Mavolen
Les Veilleurs Les Veilleurs de Mondes
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 06:20:00 -
[935] - Quote
To be ignored |
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 14:20:00 -
[936] - Quote
Well, what to say about all thosee changes and where to even begin?
Introduction of racial Destroyers and Battlecruiser skills - good idea, since it incorporates them into a skill tree instead of being branches that fell off.
Removal of Battleship V requirement for capital ships - good in theory, capitals are not T2 Battleships so that didn't made much sense, but will leave some capital pilots uhappy because they trained Battleship V for nothing and we'll see more noobs in capitals.
Changes to Command Ship skill requirements - to me, this is by far the worst change out of them all. Leave the skill requirements same as they are, maybe (and just maybe) add Wing Command IV, but tie the Warfare skills to ships themselves instead (so a Damnation would need Armored warfare V and Vulture would need Siege Warfare V).
Changes to various T2 ship skills - makes sense for EAFs, dictors and hictors, not so much with HACs. Energy Grid Upgrades and Energy Management?? Rather random skills to pick. Cloaking IV for Recons? Must have for Force Recons anyway, but it would make more sense if Combat Recons had Targeting V as a requirement instead (whether you should separate the skills or not is another question though).
Changes to Industrials - makes sense as part of tiericide initiative, I would like to see CCP revamping existing Industrials into different roles, much like they did with Mining Barges. So, for example, Wreathe would have agility of a Frigate, Hoarder would have tank of a Battleship and Mammoth would have far greater cargo bay than the other two. Also, Freighters are not T2 Industrials so I don't see why you had to train Industrials to V to fly a Freighter (same situation as with Capitals and Battleships). However, since Jump Freighters ARE T2 Freighters, having Freighter skill trained to V SHOULD be a requirement to fly them. But I would compensate this skill requirement increase by both reimbursing people who can already fly Jump Freighters and reducing training multiplier for all T1 Freighter skills to 8.
Mining Barge changes - seems OK to incorporate Mining Frigate and ORE Industrial skills into the mining tree. Also, since Orca is used for much more than conducting mining operations, I don't mind Mining Barge V requirement being thrown out (but it could still require Industry V, I guess). |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 16:10:00 -
[937] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Well, what to say about all thosee changes and where to even begin?
Introduction of racial Destroyers and Battlecruiser skills - good idea, since it incorporates them into a skill tree instead of being branches that fell off.
Removal of Battleship V requirement for capital ships - good in theory, capitals are not T2 Battleships so that didn't made much sense, but will leave some capital pilots uhappy because they trained Battleship V for nothing and we'll see more noobs in capitals.
Changes to Command Ship skill requirements - to me, this is by far the worst change out of them all. Leave the skill requirements same as they are, maybe (and just maybe) add Wing Command IV, but tie the Warfare skills to ships themselves instead (so a Damnation would need Armored warfare V and Vulture would need Siege Warfare V).
Changes to various T2 ship skills - makes sense for EAFs, dictors and hictors, not so much with HACs. Energy Grid Upgrades and Energy Management?? Rather random skills to pick. Cloaking IV for Recons? Must have for Force Recons anyway, but it would make more sense if Combat Recons had Targeting V as a requirement instead (whether you should separate the skills or not is another question though).
Changes to Industrials - makes sense as part of tiericide initiative, I would like to see CCP revamping existing Industrials into different roles, much like they did with Mining Barges. So, for example, Wreathe would have agility of a Frigate, Hoarder would have tank of a Battleship and Mammoth would have far greater cargo bay than the other two. Also, Freighters are not T2 Industrials so I don't see why you had to train Industrials to V to fly a Freighter (same situation as with Capitals and Battleships). However, since Jump Freighters ARE T2 Freighters, having Freighter skill trained to V SHOULD be a requirement to fly them. But I would compensate this skill requirement increase by both reimbursing people who can already fly Jump Freighters and reducing training multiplier for all T1 Freighter skills to 8.
Mining Barge changes - seems OK to incorporate Mining Frigate and ORE Industrial skills into the mining tree. Also, since Orca is used for much more than conducting mining operations, I don't mind Mining Barge V requirement being thrown out (but it could still require Industry V, I guess).
I like your post, because it contains your thoughts in such a constructive manner.
You say many true things, but I do disagree with you on the Command Ship requirements and give CCP my full support for them, because the 4 general skills (not link skills) bonuses are useful for all boosters, because sometimes you cannot field all of the command ships and thus characters with the correspondent skills. If I boost Shield fleets I also help out if someone dips into armor, if I boost armor I give my logies possibly a second more to react. More agility is always helpful. More targeting range is perhaps a bit redundant but helps in certain e-war situations. Maybe sensor strength would have been better? Is already in the Leadership skill, though.
There are many posts agreeing with you on the Recon requirements, which are very random (actually CCP added to the discussion if you want to click through the blue arrows in the CCP staff pics). I like to add that I believe Force and Combat Recons should have split requirements. Cloaking and e-war for Force Recons of course. For Combat Recons, e-war and something else I could not know without having flown them. But I trust many of others will have good ideas.
I also agree with you on freighter's prereqs: Please CCP, make a clean cut here and move on.
I disagree with you about the Industrial skill, while the sound of it suggests that it could be a requirement for anything having to do with ressource gathering and converting, the only ship that comes to mind even remotely making use of the skill's actual bonuses is the Rorqual (although i do not know if that is really the case), so it basicly is only a useless time sink - something I had the impression CCP wanted to remove. This is why I believe the Industry skill should not be used as prereq for any ship (but maybe the Rorqual, if it makes use of it, then again it might not need additional training time).
Now about reimbursement stuff: While it still kind of sucks to have skill levels not being a prereq anymore on a personal level for various reasons, looking at the overall scheme of things I would prefer if CCP just made a clean cut, have prereqs for old and new players the same and ditch their "what you could fly before you wil after" theme (which e.g. stopped CCP to make freighter 5 a prereq for JF, because they would need to reimburse minimum 32 days worth of skillpoints) . I believe this to be much better for the longterm health of EVE, what actually changed my mind on my reimbursement stance. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
624
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 20:46:00 -
[938] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: Now about reimbursement stuff: While it still kind of sucks to have skill levels not being a prereq anymore on a personal level for various reasons, looking at the overall scheme of things I would prefer if CCP just made a clean cut, have prereqs for old and new players the same and ditch their "what you could fly before you will after" theme (which e.g. stopped CCP to make freighter 5 a prereq for JF, because they would need to reimburse minimum 32 days worth of skillpoints) . I believe this to be much better for the longterm health of EVE, what actually changed my mind on my reimbursement stance.
I'm not aware of how people retaining their abilities detracts from game health in the long term but the affects could be quite apparent in the short term in negative fashion. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 20:55:00 -
[939] - Quote
Yeah, I guess people would be pissed short term. But long term health seems more important to me. And the need to retrain would not disable people to fly stuff - and thus detract health - if notified in time.
Especially now that the new prereqs are quite useful and most people have them trained or get additional use for the additional training anyway. . |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
624
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 23:11:00 -
[940] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Yeah, I guess people would be pissed short term. But long term health seems more important to me. And the need to retrain would not disable people to fly stuff - and thus detract health - if notified in time.
Especially now that the new prereqs are quite useful and most people have them trained or get additional use for the additional training anyway. I'm still not seeing how you are quantifying long term health here, or how the current plan detracts from it. |
|
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 01:19:00 -
[941] - Quote
I see.
Long term health for me would be that all players have the same requirements to fly any given ship. Having players with different skills being able to fly a ship means that iterating on skill changes will be a pain and might thus end up pushing CCP into corners they do not want to be in, even more than now. Making something harder to iterate on later due to unpredictable situations and thus harder to adapt, is bad for the health of the piece of software EVE Online is. It's basic programming 1o1 if you ask me and should thus be prevented at all cost to minimize future blockades. This is not always possible to notice in time of course, but pretty obvious in this case.
E.g. we could end up with people being able to fly all t2 cruisers, with no skillpoints at all in any racial cruiser to take it to an extreme (loosing skillpoints by being podded. Hey, we could even create e.g. freighter chars with skillpoints in nothing more than the freighter itself and advanced spaceship command 1 only, without having skillpoints in spaceship command or ORE Industrial by podding our chars to oblivion as long as we have the skillbooks injected. That is bad, because we never know what the players will do.
Edit: Pardon me, actually not possible with cruisers, because they specificly state racial cruiser 5 as primary prereq. But you could still loose the destroyer skills etc. Still unpredictable as hell. . |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
157
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 05:00:00 -
[942] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:I see.
Long term health for me would be that all players have the same requirements to fly any given ship. Having players with different skills being able to fly a ship means that iterating on skill changes will be a pain and might thus end up pushing CCP into corners they do not want to be in, even more than now. Making something harder to iterate on later due to unpredictable situations and thus harder to adapt, is bad for the health of the piece of software EVE Online is. It's basic programming 1o1 if you ask me and should thus be prevented at all cost to minimize future blockades. This is not always possible to notice in time of course, but pretty obvious in this case.
E.g. we could end up with people being able to fly all t2 cruisers, with no skillpoints at all in any racial cruiser to take it to an extreme (loosing skillpoints by being podded. Hey, we could even create e.g. freighter chars with skillpoints in nothing more than the freighter itself and advanced spaceship command 1 only, without having skillpoints in spaceship command or ORE Industrial by podding our chars to oblivion as long as we have the skillbooks injected. That is bad, because we never know what the players will do.
Edit: Pardon me, actually not possible with cruisers, because they specificly state racial cruiser 5 as primary prereq. But you could still loose the destroyer skills etc. Still unpredictable as hell.
Uh, I don't get how this makes it harder to iterate on? If players want to destroy skill points they paid the time for whats the issue? By making their current changes that if you have the skill injected you can train it, and if you have the primary requirements for a ship you can fly it (this one isn't a change anyway), they make it easier to iterate, because they don't have to worry about a bunch of angry players that they can no longer fly any of their normal ships, or that changing a pre-req cancels someones skill queue training a long lvl v while away on a holiday. I can't see any way it becomes 'harder' |
Amber Solaire
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 22:17:00 -
[943] - Quote
Ogopogo Mu wrote:ITT the Nighthawk is finally fixed by making it harder to train for.
Idiot....it takes far too long even now |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
626
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:13:00 -
[944] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:I see.
Long term health for me would be that all players have the same requirements to fly any given ship. Having players with different skills being able to fly a ship means that iterating on skill changes will be a pain and might thus end up pushing CCP into corners they do not want to be in, even more than now. Making something harder to iterate on later due to unpredictable situations and thus harder to adapt, is bad for the health of the piece of software EVE Online is. It's basic programming 1o1 if you ask me and should thus be prevented at all cost to minimize future blockades. This is not always possible to notice in time of course, but pretty obvious in this case. I'm actually seeing quite the opposite. By doing this as they have they have eliminated the roadblock that is player outrage. Also the current changes illustrate that, be it by design or coincidence, the skill system actually maintains prior capabilities more easily than it loses them unless you turn the tree into a list. It's the difference of having a command ship have 2 prerequisites vs ~10 for the entire tree to become necessary.
In the end it becomes easier in the long run if further changes are needed as instead of changing the prereqs on 8 hulls with new vertical lists in this example you just change the prereq on injecting the command ship skill alone and you are done.
Savira Terrant wrote: E.g. we could end up with people being able to fly all t2 cruisers, with no skillpoints at all in any racial cruiser to take it to an extreme (loosing skillpoints by being podded. Hey, we could even create e.g. freighter chars with skillpoints in nothing more than the freighter itself and advanced spaceship command 1 only, without having skillpoints in spaceship command or ORE Industrial by podding our chars to oblivion as long as we have the skillbooks injected. That is bad, because we never know what the players will do.
Edit: Pardon me, actually not possible with cruisers, because they specificly state racial cruiser 5 as primary prereq. But you could still loose the destroyer skills etc. Still unpredictable as hell.
Any T2 groups would suffer the same fate if the relevant lvl V racial ship skill is lost. And as far as losses of skills which are purely barriers to injecting top level prerequisites we have the same issue with capitols now. Loosing BS V doesn't prevent boarding a cap ship for which you already have the skill injected. Since this wasn't an issue before, why is it one now? |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
242
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:45:00 -
[945] - Quote
Irregessa wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Forlorn Wongraven wrote:@Fozzie: Freighters 5 as prereq for JF is gonna be a pain in the arse, good that I am set. Good that the needed skills to fly a ship correctly are now in the ship requirements like DD for titans and Warp Dis Gen for HICs. We aren't adding Freighters 5 as the Jump Freighter requirement, at least not for a good while. We considered it, but the prospect of giving 7 million skill points extra wasn't appealing. That doesn't make any kind of sense. The Jump Freighter skill is like any other t2 ship skill, like Heavy Assault Cruiser. There is no requirement for the hull in there. The hull comes in the determination of which jump freighter(s) can be flown by the character who has the Jump Freighter skill. However, to be consistent, you should be making racial freighter 5 be the prereq to fly the racial jump freighter, just like racial frigate/destroyer/cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship/industrial/(mining barge) are required to fly the racial t2 variants of the same hull.
Think about it a little.
Actual logistics is not a popular field to get into in nullsec.
You don't have vast armies of players chomping at the bit to resupply your POS's and fly freighters back and forth to empire space. Even your major alliances, with thousands of members, can count up those who do this stuff pretty fast and easily. Drop that to a lesser alliance or small "renter" corp and you may just shut them down completely with such a change.
How? Let's look at it.
First, as you say; Jump Freighters is a 'generic' T2 skill. -- Industry V -- Advanced Spaceship Command V
The individual hulls of the JF's have requirements. Example; the Gallente Anshar Jump Freighter. -- Gallente Freighters IV -- Jump Freighters I -- Jump Drive Calibration I
Ok... Now you suggest changing the Gallente Freighters from IV to V ?
Adjusting skill trees can work. Change the hull requirements outside of the skill-trees and it doesn't work with that stated goal. Not without giving away the missing skill level to keep them flying what they already can - with a "still fly what you can..." stated goal for these changes.
The training time on this, with +5 implants and mapped optimally is over 32 days -- without the ability to fly your JF supply ship? Oh this will go over really well with a smaller group trying to survive out there...
No I don't think they want to give away over 2.1 million SP by granting a free L5 skill-up to those pilots for "purity sake" to retain that theme of being "still fly what you can..."
Where they are at with this, it makes sense to avoid such a problem for now. It's the kind of thing to revisit later on - after reviewing how to "fix" logistics issues in nullsec (and other such locations that a JF is used). |
Deriah Book
Fox Clan The Brotherhood Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:34:00 -
[946] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:PARAGRAPHS
NO THREAD FOR YOU!!!
|
Kaylee Rei
Ascendant Brokerage Bureau Anonymous
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 04:15:00 -
[947] - Quote
Kaylee Rei wrote:Would it be possible to give an exact date or countdowns to the date of the change? I have one toon remaining that needs to juggle a remap early for it to be prepared. It would be nice to have a 45 day warning or somesuch, to get last minute training in.
- KR
So Summer 2013 starts Friday, June 21. Can we count on this date as being the "no sooner than" point for the patch? Then once summer hits the date for the change is fair game. Any new information on this front?
- KR |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
48
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 08:24:00 -
[948] - Quote
Kaylee Rei wrote:Kaylee Rei wrote:Would it be possible to give an exact date or countdowns to the date of the change? I have one toon remaining that needs to juggle a remap early for it to be prepared. It would be nice to have a 45 day warning or somesuch, to get last minute training in.
- KR So Summer 2013 starts Friday, June 21. Can we count on this date as being the "no sooner than" point for the patch? Then once summer hits the date for the change is fair game. Any new information on this front? - KR
I could probably live with a reliable statement a'la "as long as no concrete date is announced, it will be at least 30 days removed".
I'd really like to drag out my remap as long as possible! |
Mr cardking
Segmentum Solar Nulli Legio
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 01:16:00 -
[949] - Quote
ok not reading 48 pages for this...
I fly carrier now... the skill change says i need another level of Cap ships to fly carriers....
am i getting a level for free? or do i need to train this?
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1197
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 02:19:00 -
[950] - Quote
Mr cardking wrote:ok not reading 48 pages for this...
Just read the dev posts. click on a blue bar to move to the next one. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
|
Mongoose Ellecon
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 16:06:00 -
[951] - Quote
woohoo another update, its not like we dont have enough of them
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
631
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:21:00 -
[952] - Quote
I'm not aware of any since I've been playing of this nature and scale. |
RacingSOUL
Dominatus Imperium Legem Terrae.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 04:12:00 -
[953] - Quote
Would love to see a Phoenix buff, so it can at least hit a damn target going over 3 m/s, making it actually useful other than station bashing. |
Pajomcek
Unseen Nomads Exiled Ones
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:18:00 -
[954] - Quote
Can someone explain me it: I have Destroyers V and Battlecruisers V I have Caldari Cruisers V, Minmatar Cruisers V but Amarr Cruisers null and Gallente Cruisers III. I have Cladari Frigate V, and null the rest racial frigates, or something like that.
What should I expect after changes? I'll get all racial destroyers V and all racial battlecruisers V
Sorry if that question was here, but it's hard to read 48 pages, easest way is to ask. Thanks in advance |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1197
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:46:00 -
[955] - Quote
Pajomcek wrote:Can someone explain me it: I have Destroyers V and Battlecruisers V I have Caldari Cruisers V, Minmatar Cruisers V but Amarr Cruisers null and Gallente Cruisers III. I have Cladari Frigate V, and null the rest racial frigates, or something like that.
What should I expect after changes? I'll get all racial destroyers V and all racial battlecruisers V
Sorry if that question was here, but it's hard to read 48 pages, easest way is to ask. Thanks in advance
You'll get: Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente Battlecruisers 5. With no Amarr Battlecruiser, as you can't currently fly any.
You'll also get Caldari Destroyers 5. With no others as you don't have any of the racial frigates.
assuming you mean, by null, that you have them at 0.
Although you can't, if you have Minmatar and gallente cruiser injected. As they require the racial frigate at 4.
Of course, this is fully detailed in the devblog. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Pajomcek
Unseen Nomads Exiled Ones
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:12:00 -
[956] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Pajomcek wrote:Can someone explain me it: I have Destroyers V and Battlecruisers V I have Caldari Cruisers V, Minmatar Cruisers V but Amarr Cruisers null and Gallente Cruisers III. I have Cladari Frigate V, and null the rest racial frigates, or something like that.
What should I expect after changes? I'll get all racial destroyers V and all racial battlecruisers V
Sorry if that question was here, but it's hard to read 48 pages, easest way is to ask. Thanks in advance You'll get: Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente Battlecruisers 5. With no Amarr Battlecruiser, as you can't currently fly any. You'll also get Caldari Destroyers 5. With no others as you don't have any of the racial frigates. assuming you mean, by null, that you have them at 0. Although you can't, if you have Minmatar and gallente cruiser injected. As they require the racial frigate at 4. Of course, this is fully detailed in the devblog.
So, if I want to have all racial destroyer V I need to have Destroyer V and minimum IV all racial frigates? Am I right? |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
670
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:44:00 -
[957] - Quote
Pajomcek wrote:So, if I want to have all racial destroyer V I need to have Destroyer V and minimum IV all racial frigates? Am I right?
FFS...
Wanna get all racial detroyers at V? train all racial firgs to III.
Wanna get all racial BC at V? train all racial cruisers to III.
And what do you need to train racial cruisers? Racial frig at IV. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Pajomcek
Unseen Nomads Exiled Ones
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 14:15:00 -
[958] - Quote
Thanks |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 17:58:00 -
[959] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:And what do you need to train racial cruisers? Racial frig at IV.
I am sure that was just some kind of typo of yours, since you will need a racial destroyer at level 3 to be able to inject the correspondent racial cruiser. . |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
172
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 21:52:00 -
[960] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:And what do you need to train racial cruisers? Racial frig at IV. I am sure that was just some kind of typo of yours, since you will need a racial destroyer at level 3 to be able to inject the correspondent racial cruiser. No, it is NOT a typo. They are refering to the current training situation in order to gain advantage of the skill changes WHEN they occur. Basic logic people, basic logic, learn to use it. |
|
Red SPlKE
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 22:31:00 -
[961] - Quote
Forgive me if this was already answered, but I have some questions on command ships of the gallente flavour.
Right now I have command ships level 1, I have Heavy Assault ships 2, long range targeting to 4 and no logistics skill. I cannot fly any command ship right now but have the command ships skill injected and to level 1.
With the skill changes, Heavy assault is being removed from field command, and logistics are being removed from fleet command,. So the two skills I do not have are being removed from the ships prerequisites, and in their place all the warfare skills are being added as prerequisites to command ships.
Does this mean then, come the skill changes with my current skills I will be able to fly both the Eos and the astarte? Even more, since racial cruiser is being replaced by racial Battlecruiser I will have racial BC on all races so does this mean I will then be able to fly all the command ships?
Sorry if I am being stupid here and thanks for any help/ |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
50
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 23:33:00 -
[962] - Quote
Red SPlKE wrote: Right now I have command ships level 1, [...]
I will have racial BC on all races so does this mean I will then be able to fly all the command ships?
Yes.
I took the liberty of reducing the quote to the relevant information :)
Quote: Sorry if I am being stupid here and thanks for any help/
We had worse in this threat. |
Sernum
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
29
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:49:00 -
[963] - Quote
this is dumb change. thought we learned from incarna |
Bubbleboylol
BlackWater Mercenarys
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:28:00 -
[964] - Quote
Well they need to dumb the game down cause it is to hard to play now compared to ten years ago I guess--- So they need to follow the "trend"... Asking to have more then one ( Option From CCP is like asking a chicken to cook it-self. ) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
50
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 08:56:00 -
[965] - Quote
Bubbleboylol wrote:Well they need to dumb the game down cause it is to hard to play now compared to ten years ago I guess--- So they need to follow the "trend"...
Only a complete Moron would still think that change is about dumbing down after all the information given to the contrary.
As a SIDE effect of the streamlining some things (exception: Orca) get slightly easier to achieve, and most of those are not even catered towards new players. |
Bubbleboylol
BlackWater Mercenarys
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 10:56:00 -
[966] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Bubbleboylol wrote:Well they need to dumb the game down cause it is to hard to play now compared to ten years ago I guess--- So they need to follow the "trend"... Only a complete Moron would still think that change is about dumbing down after all the information given to the contrary. As a SIDE effect of the streamlining some things (exception: Orca) get slightly easier to achieve, and most of those are not even catered towards new players.
^ Asking to have more then one ( Option From CCP is like asking a chicken to cook it-self. ) |
Roseline Penshar
Enlightened Academy
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 13:55:00 -
[967] - Quote
actually it become harder for a new player that play after summer skill change occur to use all race ship |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
110
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 04:39:00 -
[968] - Quote
RacingSOUL wrote:Would love to see a Phoenix buff, so it can at least hit a damn target going over 3 m/s, making it actually useful other than station bashing. What if, vice versa, it would get a buff in raw DPS without changing damage application - making it even better in bashing AND supercap destroying? |
Lost True
Paradise project
2055
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 11:33:00 -
[969] - Quote
Duh. The good newbie will not quit because of another few weeks of skill training.
But for bots and alts it's a nice change.
But since it's a bots and alt's game, it's fine.
Because those ones going up: http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility (game) But this one is going down: http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?w=400&h=220&o=f&c=1&y=r&b=ffffff&n=666666&r=2y&u=eveonline.com& (site, forums) How boring is this... Gone to play STO long ago. It's has a hell of lot of flaws, but at least in it i can do more than just meaningless PvP here. I know what i talking about, noobs :)-áhttp://eveboard.com/pilot/lost%20true |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 12:46:00 -
[970] - Quote
How reliable is Alexa?
I've had the feeling that actual player numbers are not increasing as much as people claim for quite a while now, lacking reliable data tough.
It annoys me every time the EVE launcher reports active 'players' instead of 'pilots' for the same reason. |
|
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
459
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:41:00 -
[971] - Quote
Sernum wrote:this is dumb change. thought we learned from incarna
Question: Why are there no pirate destroyers or battlecruisers?
Take your time answering. Malcanis, Ripard Teg, and Trebor Daehdoow for CSM 8
(I have three accounts, so why not?) |
Lost True
Paradise project
2055
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 03:46:00 -
[972] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:How reliable is Alexa? I've had the feeling that actual player numbers are not increasing as much as people claim for quite a while now, lacking reliable data tough. It annoys me every time the EVE launcher reports active 'players' instead of 'pilots' for the same reason. Well, i think it's more reliable than some counter of the small game company. How boring is this... Gone to play STO long ago. It's has a hell of lot of flaws, but at least in it i can do more than just meaningless PvP here. I know what i talking about, noobs :)-áhttp://eveboard.com/pilot/lost%20true |
Inkarr Hashur
Sacrificial Lambs The Devil's Warrior Alliance
247
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 21:36:00 -
[973] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Bubbleboylol wrote:Well they need to dumb the game down cause it is to hard to play now compared to ten years ago I guess--- So they need to follow the "trend"... Only a complete Moron would still think that change is about dumbing down after all the information given to the contrary. As a SIDE effect of the streamlining some things (exception: Orca) get slightly easier to achieve, and most of those are not even catered towards new players.
Not to mention these changes give new players and low-SP players MORE opportunity to fail, crash and burn by flying things they aren't ready to fly.
This is directly contradictory with the claim that the changes "dumb down" the game. |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 10:09:00 -
[974] - Quote
I would like to point out to CCP that their plan on leaving the Freighter requirement for Jumpfreighters at Level 4 is now obsolete, since they will not need to gift the players with the required skillspoints after they changed it so that only the injected Jumpfreighter skill is needed for... wait, what? This does not work for freighters?! Never mind then.
But I really want to see correctly streamlined skilltrees. So please also change that for the Jumpfreighters. I am sure you will find a very creative way to handle the problem of the "flying stuff before and after" problem. You did find one for t1 ships and every other T2 ship at least. . |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 10:31:00 -
[975] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: But I really want to see correctly streamlined skilltrees. So please also change that for the Jumpfreighters. I am sure you will find a very creative way to handle the problem of the "flying stuff before and after" problem. You did find one for t1 ships and every other T2 ship at least.
Please name those T2 ships. As a general rule, T2 ships require a racial skill - usually at V - and a specialist skill.
The Jumpfreighters skill is the specialist skill here, so the skilltree revamp has nothing to do with your problem.
The crux of the matter is, that the SHIP requirement of jump freighters is inconsistent with T2 ships regarding the lvlV racial requirement. There's no creative way to fix that fairly, either you break the 'still fly what you can before' rule or you don't.
That said, it would probably be easier and really not much worse to simply change the general requirements for T2 ships to racial IV + specialty skill. That way access to those ships would be easier, but those with the skill at V would stand out by flying the ship BETTER - just like with almost all the other skills.
It would also allow T2 ship requirements to be consistent, which is always a good thing. (Next in line: consistency for T2 modules :))
(A way to compensate those feeling grumpy of having 'needlessly' skilled to V could be to lower the base values of those ships and increase the level bonus, the same way harbinger or drake were modified towards an emphasis on BC V) |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 10:47:00 -
[976] - Quote
Sorry, I edited my post for too long. Please also refer to the new stuff...
The problem here is that the other T2 ships already required the T1 shipclass to 5 anyway, while the JF did not. So the fix was not needed. I was a bit off there. . |
Lord Fudo
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 18:07:00 -
[977] - Quote
Anyone happy about having to skill up Armor, Siege, Information and Skirmish to lvl 5 for command ships? Thats around 8-9 days each for lvl 5. Think lvl4 is about 24h each.
Also now we have to skill up all these jump drive skills for carriers? I dont give a **** about jump drived. I live in a wormhole. What the **** do i need a jump drive for in there. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
249
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 18:54:00 -
[978] - Quote
Lord Fudo wrote:Anyone happy about having to skill up Armor, Siege, Information and Skirmish to lvl 5 for command ships? Thats around 8-9 days each for lvl 5. Think lvl4 is about 24h each.
Also now we have to skill up all these jump drive skills for carriers? I dont give a **** about jump drived. I live in a wormhole. What the **** do i need a jump drive for in there.
I am not the least bit pleased with adding all 4 warfare skills as a prereq for command ships, no. Its silly. You don't need all 4 warfare skills to V to have yourself a functioning and effective booster alt. Jump drives are another matter.
Granted, even with this change the training time to sit a command ship will be even shorter than it is now. I think. So maybe that's a concern CCP had. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 19:15:00 -
[979] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
I am not the least bit pleased with adding all 4 warfare skills as a prereq for command ships, no. Its silly.
Less ore more silly than assault ship/logistics? At least those are COMMAND skills..you know, as in COMMAND ship. It's not really CCPs fault those ships are used for something else. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 10:25:00 -
[980] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote: [T2 modules and stuff]
There's some confusion in your post and I'd love to clear it up, but I fear we'd be moving quite a bit away from this thread's topic. If you wish to open a new topic about T2 requirements in general somewhere (maybe features and ideas?) and drop me a note, I'd be happy to jump into the discussion :). |
|
Haulie Berry
280
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 15:55:00 -
[981] - Quote
Your forgot to label your chart.
Allow me to help. That should be captioned with the following:
Estimated percentage of global internet users who visit eveonline.com.
It's a chart that tells us they have the internet in Africa, now. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 09:06:00 -
[982] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Your forgot to label your chart. Allow me to help. That should be captioned with the following: Estimated percentage of global internet users who visit eveonline.com. It's a chart that tells us they have the internet in Africa, now.
Yet another uninformed post by you.
http://www.internetworldstats.com/top20.htm
|
Deriah Book
Fox Clan The Brotherhood Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 17:25:00 -
[983] - Quote
I just want to make sure I've got this right:
The skill "Marauders" will stay in the game with the same multiracial functionality that it has now? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
631
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 19:37:00 -
[984] - Quote
Deriah Book wrote:I just want to make sure I've got this right:
The skill "Marauders" will stay in the game with the same multiracial functionality that it has now? All tech 2 ship skills remain multiracial as they are now, including marauders. |
Deriah Book
Fox Clan The Brotherhood Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 22:34:00 -
[985] - Quote
Sweet. Thank you. |
Adeleine
Sateenvarjo
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 12:58:00 -
[986] - Quote
I have;
Amarr Frigate 5, Caldari Frigate 5, Galente Frigate 3, Minmatar Frigate 3 Destroyers 2
So I can fly all Tech 1 Destroyers. And after the change I will have;
Amarr Frigate 5, Caldari Frigate 5, Galente Frigate 3, Minmatar Frigate 3 Amarr Destroyers 2, Caldari Destroyers 2, Galente Destroyers 2, Minmatar Destroyers 2
Sounds correct? And if I read destroyers up to 3. I will have;
Amarr Frigate 5, Caldari Frigate 5, Galente Frigate 3, Minmatar Frigate 3 Amarr Destroyers 3, Caldari Destroyers 3, Galente Destroyers 3, Minmatar Destroyers 3
Correct?
Now I also have;
Amarr Cruiser 4, Caldari Cruiser 5 Battlecruiser 5
So I will get;
Amarr Cruiser 4, Caldari Cruiser 5 Amarr Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5
But if I read up Galente Cruisers to 3 I get;
Amarr Cruiser 4, Caldari Cruiser 5, Galente Cruiser 3 Amarr Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5, Galente Battlecruiser 5
Correct?
Not that I need those but free stuff is free stuff. In lifes piorities it comes right after getting it on with hot lesbian couple.
Now the second thing gets me really worried; The leadership 5 skills to fly Command Ship.
I do have Leadership 5 and the rest are 3. But I am base charisma 3 charecter. If I reset that I lose on the int side so I wont. Reading leadership skills do take an awful lot of time from me. And this is even more painfull since I dont really want to command any one but instead I want to fly Battlecruiser hull size assault ship. But there aint one, exept the command ships.
So Now I can fly one command ship, caldari Nighthawk. If I read up Amarr cruisers V, that opens Absolution too.
So will I get free boost to leadership skills to 5 so I can still fly Nighthawk or will I have to read em up after patch?
And no I didnt read 50 pages of "can i fly my tech 2 ship" to find the answer. What can I say? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8200
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 13:19:00 -
[987] - Quote
Try just reading the devblog.
No you won't get free leadership skills. Yes you will still be able to fly commandships. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
249
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 16:42:00 -
[988] - Quote
Adeleine, I'd recommend just training into command ships now, because the boosting skills they're adding after the patch hurt more than the leadership skills now. Much more. |
ohlalala
Mirach Labs S2N Citizens
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 19:56:00 -
[989] - Quote
Just have a short question: I saw the motto of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ in your dev blog. I understand of the racial BC and destroyer skill change. But for other ships ,like freighter and rorq. If I can fly now, and after the expansion, I "should" be able to fly it. But the skills are changes for these ships. say If I can just fly the rorq (means just a sitting pilot, and can't use the industrial core) But after the expansion, since the skills are changed, Do I get those skills for free? (ie the skills need for industrial core) same for command ships, say if I can fly them now and after the expansion, will I get all the command skill for free? Thanks for you answer :) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 22:14:00 -
[990] - Quote
ohlalala wrote:Just have a short question: I saw the motto of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ in your dev blog. I understand of the racial BC and destroyer skill change. But for other ships ,like freighter and rorq. If I can fly now, and after the expansion, I "should" be able to fly it. But the skills are changes for these ships. say If I can just fly the rorq (means just a sitting pilot, and can't use the industrial core) But after the expansion, since the skills are changed, Do I get those skills for free? (ie the skills need for industrial core) same for command ships, say if I can fly them now and after the expansion, will I get all the command skill for free? Thanks for you answer :)
Ok srsly now. Right above your post there is an answer to a similar case.
You can expect a tiny bit of understanding if you're too lazy to read 50 pages and too stupid to just click through the dev replies. But reading the last few posts before you post a question is hardly asking for too much. |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1221
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 23:09:00 -
[991] - Quote
ohlalala wrote:Just have a short question: I saw the motto of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ in your dev blog. I understand of the racial BC and destroyer skill change. But for other ships ,like freighter and rorq. If I can fly now, and after the expansion, I "should" be able to fly it. But the skills are changes for these ships. say If I can just fly the rorq (means just a sitting pilot, and can't use the industrial core) But after the expansion, since the skills are changed, Do I get those skills for free? (ie the skills need for industrial core) same for command ships, say if I can fly them now and after the expansion, will I get all the command skill for free? Thanks for you answer :)
No. You get no free skills.
Because the requirements for a skill, aren't requirements for the ship.
If you have the skill for the ship, you can fly it, regardless of if you have the new requirements for the skill. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 05:54:00 -
[992] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:But I really want to see correctly streamlined skilltrees. So please also change that for the Jumpfreighters. All capital ships have a mess instead of "streamlined" tree. Titans dont have Dreads as prerequisite, Supercarriers share the same skill with Carriers. All of them are based on level 3 (only!) of Battleships, making cross-training for capitals way too easy - while there were no such goal. And yes, IV level instead of V for Jump Freighters.
Furthermore, never heard community complained about skill tree. Instead, heard a lot about POS being crap, and Sov wars being boring. So I consider this change as a fail, all of it - from initial idea to final implementation. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 09:32:00 -
[993] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote: Furthermore, never heard community complained about skill tree. Instead, heard a lot about POS being crap, and Sov wars being boring. So I consider this change as a fail, all of it - from initial idea to final implementation.
I suppose at some point someone was sick about the crappy thing the skill tree evolved to and decided to do something about it. It's called 'professional pride'. Might be a new concept to some. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 10:14:00 -
[994] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:I suppose at some point someone was sick about the crappy thing the skill tree evolved to and decided to do something about it. It's called 'professional pride'. Might be a new concept to some. The same someone being fine with POS and Sov makes it look like a whim rather. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
52
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 10:22:00 -
[995] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:I suppose at some point someone was sick about the crappy thing the skill tree evolved to and decided to do something about it. It's called 'professional pride'. Might be a new concept to some. The same someone being fine with POS and Sov makes it look like a whim rather.
Might be another someone. They're a small company but not THAT small. Also the skill change strikes me as a thing that is harder to communicate than to actually fix. |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 11:19:00 -
[996] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Might be another someone. They're a small company but not THAT small. Also the skill change strikes me as a thing that is harder to communicate than to actually fix. CCP Ytterbium takes part in both POS revamp and this venture. But do you mean to say the skill tree is properly fixed now? And you refuse to agree that capital part of the tree is a nonsense?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
631
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 20:01:00 -
[997] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Might be another someone. They're a small company but not THAT small. Also the skill change strikes me as a thing that is harder to communicate than to actually fix. CCP Ytterbium takes part in both POS revamp and this venture. But do you mean to say the skill tree is properly fixed now? And you refuse to agree that capital part of the tree is a nonsense? The capital portion of the skill tree is probably unsalvageable. It's supposedly a T1 series of ships but requires a number of nested prerequisites to ensure basic functionality of the ships in their roles, which is a T2 ship attribute. T1 subcap ships don't have this and so long as it remains there will be no true "fixing" of the cap trees. since it's so special cased anyways why bother with it? |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 06:26:00 -
[998] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The capital portion of the skill tree is probably unsalvageable. It's supposedly a T1 series of ships but requires a number of nested prerequisites to ensure basic functionality of the ships in their roles, which is a T2 ship attribute. T1 subcap ships don't have this and so long as it remains there will be no true "fixing" of the cap trees. since it's so special cased anyways why bother with it? I dont think it's so terribly "unsalvageable". And no, most capitals perform pretty good without their hidden nested prerequisites, except for Dreads, and Rorqual in some extent. Also, those could be easily "streamlined" if one wished so - just increase base damage on Dreads (while reducing sieged bonus) and allow ore compression without deploying, but at reduced rate. As for the other caps: 1. Carriers - can perform extremely good without triage and even without fighters, their designed primary weapon system. Slowcats is a new drake (c). 2. Supercarriers - once you're skilled for their primiry weapon system, are good as they are. 3. Titans - while it's pretty dumb, but theoretically it could be usefull with only capital turrets onboard, without DD, bridges and whatnot. 4. Freighters. Well, nuff said.
But you know what? I'd even agree if they said "oh capships are really hard to fix, so they remain as they are". But no, they change prerequisites from BS V to BS III, to make it look like streamlined. In my opinion, it's the worst solution of all. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
53
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 08:56:00 -
[999] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote: But do you mean to say the skill tree is properly fixed now? And you refuse to agree that capital part of the tree is a nonsense?
I wouldn't have done it like that, but I can hardly say it's nonsense, since there are valid reasons to change the capital requirements as they did by defining a primary intended purpose and changing requirements accordingly.
Quote: But no, they change prerequisites from BS V to BS III, to make it look like streamlined. In my opinion, it's the worst solution of all.
Well, that change is certainly streamlined as it's in accordance with the other requirements in the linear part of the tree. Personally i'd have preferred IV for consistency, but again it`s pretty much a matter of opinion.
|
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 09:49:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote:But do you mean to say the skill tree is properly fixed now? And you refuse to agree that capital part of the tree is a nonsense? I wouldn't have done it like that, but I can hardly say it's nonsense, since there are valid reasons to change the capital requirements as they did by defining a primary intended purpose and changing requirements accordingly. Titan is one size above Dread, but does not have it as a prerequisite. Supercarrier is even worse - it shares the same skill with Carrier, which is one size below. It's like if Battleship and Battlecruiser had Cruiser as prerequisite; and Destroyer shared the skill with Frigate. If the purpose was to make skill tree easy to comprehend, then it was failed - because it still bogs my mind capitally. |
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
53
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 10:34:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Sinzor Aumer wrote: Titan is one size above Dread, but does not have it as a prerequisite. Supercarrier is even worse - it shares the same skill with Carrier, which is one size below. It's like if Battleship and Battlecruiser had Cruiser as prerequisite; and Destroyer shared the skill with Frigate. If the purpose was to make skill tree easy to comprehend, then it was failed - because it still bogs my mind capitally.
Skilltree branches into titan/dread/carrier at this point, it's no longer the linear subcap skilltree. By being on the leaf level they are no longer restricted by the trunk's rules.
They're free to define it that way, even if personally i'd linearize it too.
I.e. I would prefer if the skilltree were to continue into ..->(racial) capital -> (racial) supercapital with carrier/dread and MS/titan just being T1 variants just like domi/megathron are variants of gallente BS.
The problem is, it would still be inconsistent as long as the capital ships require secondary skills, as secondary skill requirements is firmly in the domain of T2 ships. (Unless i'm overlooking a ship or two)
|
Pajomcek
Unseen Nomads Exiled Ones
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 11:34:00 -
[1002] - Quote
What about marauders? Does CCP touch this skill too? |
Olga die Vernichterin
Stardust Ltd. Recca Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 12:58:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Probably not, because it's T2 |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:57:00 -
[1004] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:They're free to define it that way, even if personally i'd linearize it too. I.e. I would prefer if the skilltree were to continue into ..->(racial) capital -> (racial) supercapital with carrier/dread and MS/titan just being T1 variants just like domi/megathron are variants of gallente BS. Looks like we've come to agreement, didnt we?
Would be nice to hear from CCP Ytterbium and Co, if their "professional pride" and "professional taste" (or whatever they got) is satisfied? But I accidentally 1000's get, all of it - while devs didnt appear for a while and most probably forgot about this thread. Such a pity. |
Ereilian
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 12:55:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Something that has struck me is ... with the new Jump Op/Cal requirements for capital ships is not now a good time to rationalize the Nav skills section.
The idea is that rather than the ops/cal skills you have a single skill, lets say Jump Drive Specialist, that is a combination of the two boni and set at such a training level that is would be comparable to current timings. |
Torrema Sinclair
Brimstone Tactical Covert Intervention
36
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 15:29:00 -
[1006] - Quote
What of those like me, who has BC lvl 5 (or almost though), but dont wanna have say Caldari BC lvl 5. Shouldnt we have a chance to choose what ships we wanna skill for and get an reimbursment for those we dont? |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
112
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 17:24:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Torrema Sinclair wrote:What of those like me, who has BC lvl 5 (or almost though), but dont wanna have say Caldari BC lvl 5. Shouldnt we have a chance to choose what ships we wanna skill for and get an reimbursment for those we dont? No. If you dont want that skill - petition to remove it. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
53
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 18:00:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Torrema Sinclair wrote:What of those like me, who has BC lvl 5 (or almost though), but dont wanna have say Caldari BC lvl 5. Shouldnt we have a chance to choose what ships we wanna skill for and get an reimbursment for those we dont?
Wow, you're the first to come up with a reimbursement for SP you're getting for free. Awesome idea.
In that vein, could I please get a reimbursement for the titan skills i never trained? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
631
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 19:50:00 -
[1009] - Quote
Torrema Sinclair wrote:What of those like me, who has BC lvl 5 (or almost though), but dont wanna have say Caldari BC lvl 5. Don't train Caldari cruiser 3. If you did then you already chose to have the capability to fly Caldari BC's and thus will receive the skill.
Torrema Sinclair wrote:Shouldnt we have a chance to choose what ships we wanna skill for and get an reimbursment for those we dont? No. You will be given skills based upon choices you already made, this just preserves them. |
Tiber Ibis
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:03:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Just reading over the dev blog again and I am a little confused regarding one inconsistency I've noticed.
For the Revelation the new skill requirements to simply train the Amarr Dreadnought skill do not include the Jump Drive Operation skills, which are listed as tertiary skills.
For the Archon the new skill requirement to simply train Amarr Carrier include all the Jump Drive Operation skills, ie they are no longer tertiary skills.
Before I understood that tertiary skills were not needed to train up the skill, although are needed to actually fly the ship. So is it the case under the new skill requirement that the Jump Drive skills will be now needed to simply train the Amarr Carrier, although for some reason not needed for training Amarr Dreadnought?
Seems to be an inconsistency and so I'm sure this must be a mistake. |
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
54
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 22:25:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Btw: June 4th? Good date :) |
Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 15:48:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Read through Page 3 and still not sure I follow the mechanics for the skill change. Keep hearing reimburse and fly before and after. So if I have destroyers 5 and BC 5, will I have free skill points to allocate after the patch? .. like the mechanic with the learning skills removal? Will those two skills disappear and I will have to allocate those skill points to the skills of my choice? So if I want I can put them back into the racial destroyers and bc skills and be able to fly all the ships before or else put the sp elsewhere if desired? Am I following correctly? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1247
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 16:08:00 -
[1013] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Btw: June 4th? Good date :)
/me mutters about ungrateful colonial types who can't even make a decent cup of tea.
Hot water without salt! Not cold salty water! And certainly not a bay's worth!
Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Unit562
Liberation Army Li3 Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 17:07:00 -
[1014] - Quote
My biggest concern at this point: With the removal of off-grid boosting, what will be done to make the rorqual worth while, as setting up inside the belt with the mining fleet is a great way to loose your rorqual, and has no positives to it what so ever. As the Rorqual is usually setup at a POS, is there a possibility of a POS module that can make boosts from a rorqual inside the POS and "linked" to the module system wide?
|
Unit562
Liberation Army Li3 Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 17:10:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Torrema Sinclair wrote:What of those like me, who has BC lvl 5 (or almost though), but dont wanna have say Caldari BC lvl 5. Shouldnt we have a chance to choose what ships we wanna skill for and get an reimbursment for those we dont?
Then when the skill change comes, put on your best diaper, take your thumb out of your mouth, and suck it up. |
Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 14:37:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Unit562 wrote: Then when the skill change comes, put on your best diaper, take your thumb out of your mouth, and suck it up.
If you have nothing to contribute, just keep your mouth shut. If you feel like insulting other players, then go play WOW or go somewhere else. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
54
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 16:09:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Unit562 wrote: Then when the skill change comes, put on your best diaper, take your thumb out of your mouth, and suck it up.
If you have nothing to contribute, just keep your mouth shut. If you feel like insulting other players, then go play WOW or go somewhere else.
You may wish to apply your standards to your own posts. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2383
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 16:34:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Unit562 wrote:My biggest concern at this point: With the removal of off-grid boosting, what will be done to make the rorqual worth while, as setting up inside the belt with the mining fleet is a great way to loose your rorqual, and has no positives to it what so ever. As the Rorqual is usually setup at a POS, is there a possibility of a POS module that can make boosts from a rorqual inside the POS and "linked" to the module system wide?
Unit562 wrote:Then when the skill change comes, put on your best diaper, take your thumb out of your mouth, and suck it up.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Moron.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Clolo
Origin. Black Legion.
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 18:33:00 -
[1019] - Quote
I don't know if this has been addressed already but here I go. My question is in reference to Carriers and Freighters. Will there be any "free SP" for these two ships? For Carriers you are now required to have Capital Ships 4 vs 3 previously. Will we be given the bump from 3 to 4 if we don't have it trained? Along the same lines, Freighters require Advanced Spaceship Command 1 now but will require 5, will we be given that skill as well? I seem to remember CCP making a big deal of "if you can fly it now, you will fly it after the patch". I just want to make sure these two ship classes aren't overlooked in that. |
Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 20:03:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Clolo wrote:I don't know if this has been addressed already but here I go. My question is in reference to Carriers and Freighters. Will there be any "free SP" for these two ships? For Carriers you are now required to have Capital Ships 4 vs 3 previously. Will we be given the bump from 3 to 4 if we don't have it trained? Along the same lines, Freighters require Advanced Spaceship Command 1 now but will require 5, will we be given that skill as well? I seem to remember CCP making a big deal of "if you can fly it now, you will fly it after the patch". I just want to make sure these two ship classes aren't overlooked in that. You have already injected the skill. You do not need the pre-reqs. Those who have not already injected the skills will need those pre-reqs. That's what they are trying to say. |
|
Tiber Ibis
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 03:49:00 -
[1021] - Quote
Tiber Ibis wrote:Just reading over the dev blog again and I am a little confused regarding one inconsistency I've noticed.
For the Revelation the new skill requirements to simply train the Amarr Dreadnought skill do not include the Jump Drive Operation skills, which are listed as tertiary skills.
For the Archon the new skill requirement to simply train Amarr Carrier include all the Jump Drive Operation skills, ie they are no longer tertiary skills.
Before I understood that tertiary skills were not needed to train up the skill, although are needed to actually fly the ship. So is it the case under the new skill requirement that the Jump Drive skills will be now needed to simply train the Amarr Carrier, although for some reason not needed for training Amarr Dreadnought?
Seems to be an inconsistency and so I'm sure this must be a mistake.
I just wondered if anyone could clarify on this if possible. Anyone have any ideas if this is a mistake or intentional by CCP?
|
nomad Raholan
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 16:11:00 -
[1022] - Quote
These questions have probably been asked and answered but I am unable to find it.. With the changes to skill requirements for command ships in the upcoming expansion, will ALL command ships now receive a link bonus or will Warfare link bonuses remain as they are now? Does having to train all 4 warfare skills to lvl 5 as a requirement mean the 3% to gang links on fleet command ship bonuses will refer to all racial links when fitted or will they remain faction specific? Are we actually losing 4 command ships? we currently have 4 Fleet command ships and 4 Field command ships with very different roles, fitting options and bonuses. .,.,.,Disagree with me if you feel the need.,.,., .,.,.,Right or Wrong.,.,.,.-á .,.,.,My opinion is free and mine to own.,.,.,. |
Fluffy Sheep
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 00:18:00 -
[1023] - Quote
try this older blog |
Guru'TugginMyPudha
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 11:16:00 -
[1024] - Quote
I'm sorry if this has been informed already but i'll ask anyway:
Can anyone tell me the official date for this "racial changes" patch ? |
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 15:32:00 -
[1025] - Quote
As a few others have pointed out, some of the tree changes don't make sense.
i.e.
Recons - Why cloaking lvl 4 and especially for combat recons which don't even fit a cloak? and why the destroyer skill needed?
Fix: Force recon - Remove destroyer 3 and replace with cov-op 3. Keep the cloaking skill as this is makes sense for this type of ship.
Combat recon - remove cloaking 4 and replace with something more suitable (why have cloaking 4 on a ship that doesn't even fit the damn thing?!?!) Remove destroyer 3 and replace with HAC 3 or frigate 4
HACS:
Again with the destroyer req!! Remove and replace with racial Battlecruiser 3
HICS:
and again with the destroyer req!! Remove and replace with HAC 3
Command Ships:
Were you lot sniffing toilet seats on this one???
Link specialist 4 & leadership 5 fine, but why the other 5 warfare skills to 5?? Again, look at the ships & the bonus the warfare link module gets and just make just that one to 5.
i.e. Minny version require Skirmish warfare 5 and not all the others!
REMOVE destroyer 3 and up the Cruiser skill from 3 to 4
The ONLY tree which should really have the destroyer skill in is "Destroyers" (obviously) and then the Interdictor which is the natural T2 progression for the destroyer class.
Stop putting the damn destroyer skill in everything else when it's not even needed or has anything to do with the progression path for the other ships.
**edited bit**
Oh, I read somewhere that release date is beginning of June for the next expansion (could be wrong though) |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1253
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 18:02:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Destructor1792 wrote:stuff
You do know that Racial Cruiser requires Racial Destroyer 3, right? Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 18:46:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Destructor1792 wrote:stuff You do know that Racial Cruiser requires Racial Destroyer 3, right?
My guess is badly executed april's fool post.
|
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 20:23:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:You do know that Racial Cruiser requires Racial Destroyer 3, right?
I'm glad you read the part where I put:
Destructor1792 wrote:Stop putting the damn destroyer skill in everything else when it's not even needed or has anything to do with the progression path for the other ships.
And yes, that does include removing it from the Racial Cruisers as well.
Why the need to even break down the destroyer skill into Racial ones only screams of CCP getting ready to Implementing more future changes so every Ship class is eventually broken into Racial Skills
I.E. Amarr Command Ship, Gallente Marauder, Minmatar Logistics, Caldari Heavy Assault Ship.. Getting the picture yet?
or to break it down even simpler - How to pad out & extend the game life to keep newer players coming back for more after the skill change goes live by making the time it takes to get into a new set of ships even longer.
Doesn't take a genius to work out what they're doing... Or maybe it does |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
531
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 21:35:00 -
[1029] - Quote
The new skill prerequisites are basically for injecting the skill book, not flying the ship. If you already have the skill trained to fly it then the skill is already in your head, regardless of if you have the new prerequisites or not.
For example; with the changes racial destroyer 3 will be a prerequisite for the racial cruiser skill. currently you only need racial frigate 4 to train the racial cruiser skill. So if when the patch comes you have racial cruiser 4 trained but do not have any destroyer skills trained you will not lose the racial cruiser skill, it is already in your head. The new prerequisite skill is for injecting the skill book not flying the ship. as long as you have the racial cruiser skill trained you will still be able to fly cruisers, even if you do not have the destroyer skill trained.
Like wise with the command ships. with the changes you will all the leadership skills at 5 to inject the command ship skillbook. But if you already have the skillbook injected the new prerequisites do not affect you.
The same with the changes to the carrier skills. If you currently fly a carrier in W-space and do not have any jump drive skills trained beyond the bare minimum, the new prerequisite skills will not affect you if you already have the carrier skill trained. thge new prerequisites only apply to player looking to inject the skill books.
My advice to take advantage of these changes are, if you have a skillbook you want to inject/train where you currently meet the prerequisites but will not meet the new prerequisites after the change, get it injected and trained to at least 1 before the change takes effect.
For the record the summer expansion is Odyssey, scheduled for June 4th. I would think everyone here would know that by now, but it seems some do not.
You got two months left to be ready for it. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
531
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 21:37:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Destructor1792 wrote:stuff You do know that Racial Cruiser requires Racial Destroyer 3, right? the skill book does, the ships do not. If you already have racial cruiser trained, the prerequisite means nothing for you. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
635
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 00:05:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Destructor1792 wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You do know that Racial Cruiser requires Racial Destroyer 3, right? I'm glad you read the part where I put: Destructor1792 wrote:Stop putting the damn destroyer skill in everything else when it's not even needed or has anything to do with the progression path for the other ships. And yes, that does include removing it from the Racial Cruisers as well. Why the need to even break down the destroyer skill into Racial ones only screams of CCP getting ready to Implementing more future changes so every Ship class is eventually broken into Racial Skills I.E. Amarr Command Ship skillbook, Gallente Marauder skillbook, Minmatar Logistics skillbook, Caldari Heavy Assault Ship skillbook.. Getting the picture yet? or to break it down even simpler - How to pad out & extend the game life to keep newer players coming back for more after the skill change goes live by making the time it takes to get into a new set of ships even longer. Doesn't take a genius to work out what they're doing... Or maybe it does Or it could just be that the BC group simply had to many hulls making the skill give proportionally more benefit than they felt it should. Splitting that alone leaves destroyers the odd man out which didn't make sense. Even that aside we're only talking about levels 1-3 which are combined less that frigate 4 alone making advancing in the tree faster. So the hulls you are complaining about having destroyers included in are getting a beneficial trade.
The rest is just you extrapolating things that aren't there using the slippery slope fallacy. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
55
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 08:34:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Destructor1792 wrote:Doesn't take a genius to work out what they're doing... Or maybe it does
OR maybe it does take someone a lot LESS than a genius to not spot the difference between T1 and T2 ships and the respective skills.
One silly rant made you look a bit stupid (in your defense i even assumed an attempted april's fool). Beating the dead horse again makes you look like a moron, especially with that comment in the end... |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
52
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 22:00:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Not related to ships, but related to T2. Any plans to change T2 turrets from being dependent of lower-sized T2 turrets? This is main issue, why people choosing missiles, rather than guns - faster to train. ALOT faster. And by ALOT, I mean, about a month of difference. |
Major Trant
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
151
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 11:25:00 -
[1034] - Quote
If I have Command Ships IV trained pre patch and after the patch no longer have the required pre-regs (leaderships skills to V), can I still train Command Ships V or will I have to go back and fill in those missing pre-reqs first? |
nomad Raholan
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 17:33:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Thanks.. Exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping the changes would give each faction a bonus to all links as the new training requirements suggest but it seems it is not to be..
.,.,.,Disagree with me if you feel the need.,.,., .,.,.,Right or Wrong.,.,.,.-á .,.,.,My opinion is free and mine to own.,.,.,. |
Eric Agerwal
Cryosoft
10
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 17:03:00 -
[1036] - Quote
I was talking with another player ingame about the upcoming changes to freighters and he pointed out the upcoming Primary/Secondary Skills seemed pointless... the secondary alone say it all... Well spotted Psi Goa! |
Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
1868
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 20:27:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Destructor1792 wrote:As a few others have pointed out, some of the tree changes don't make sense.
i.e.
Recons - Why cloaking lvl 4 and especially for combat recons which don't even fit a cloak? and why the destroyer skill needed?
Fix: Force recon - Remove destroyer 3 and replace with cov-op 3. Keep the cloaking skill as this is makes sense for this type of ship.
Combat recon - remove cloaking 4 and replace with something more suitable (why have cloaking 4 on a ship that doesn't even fit the damn thing?!?!) Remove destroyer 3 and replace with HAC 3 or frigate 4
HACS:
Again with the destroyer req!! Remove and replace with racial Battlecruiser 3
HICS:
and again with the destroyer req!! Remove and replace with HAC 3
Command Ships:
Were you lot sniffing toilet seats on this one???
Link specialist 4 & leadership 5 fine, but why the other 5 warfare skills to 5?? Again, look at the ships & the bonus the warfare link module gets and just make just that one to 5.
i.e. Minny version require Skirmish warfare 5 and not all the others!
REMOVE destroyer 3 and up the Cruiser skill from 3 to 4
The ONLY tree which should really have the destroyer skill in is "Destroyers" (obviously) and then the Interdictor which is the natural T2 progression for the destroyer class.
Stop putting the damn destroyer skill in everything else when it's not even needed or has anything to do with the progression path for the other ships.
Personally, I see the natural progression through the non Indy ships as:
Frig -> Cruiser -> Battlecruiser -> Battleship -> Capitals and Destroyer
specialised ships as
Destroyer -> Interdictor Frig -> Specialised Frigs (cov-op, Inty, AF) Cruiser -> Battlecruiser -> Specialised Cruiser/BC Ships (HACS, HICS, LOGI's, T3's, CS, etc) Battleship -> Specialised BS (marauders, B-ops, Pirate Faction BS)
Even like this, you can see destroyers as the odd man out as after interdictors you don't really need that book for anything else.
**edited bit**
Oh, I read somewhere that the next Expansion is due for release at the beginning of June (could be wrong though)
Well, since CCP is a real company, and needs real money to survive. Silly things like these are made to make you have longer skill que :)
|
Eodp Ellecon
Imperial Guardians Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 00:19:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Looking at the possibilties for Exploration ships has been frustrating.
Just to use the Imicus as an example...what good are the bonuses if the ship isn't capabable of working a site offensively or defensively. It needs drone bandwith and damage bonuses to help it along, probably more slots too. Feeling similar about any medium ring options.
Dislike that the answer is always bring an 'alt'
52 pages or so makes keeping up or seeing reasonable replies here tuff too.
Slugging along.
E |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 19:37:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Eodp Ellecon wrote:Looking at the possibilties for Exploration ships has been frustrating.
Just to use the Imicus as an example...what good are the bonuses if the ship isn't capabable of working a site offensively or defensively. It needs drone bandwith and damage bonuses to help it along, probably more slots too. Feeling similar about any medium ring options.
Dislike that the answer is always bring an 'alt'
52 pages or so makes keeping up or seeing reasonable replies here tuff too.
Slugging along.
E Switch ships? |
Lord KesH
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 23:28:00 -
[1040] - Quote
So being confused of nature, I will ask here.
I have Destroyers and BC skills to V already.
What do I need to get maximum out of this change?
Will I need all Frigs and Cruisers to V or will less do?
Sorry for being confused :) |
|
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
341
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 02:23:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Lord KesH wrote:So being confused of nature, I will ask here.
I have Destroyers and BC skills to V already.
What do I need to get maximum out of this change?
Will I need all Frigs and Cruisers to V or will less do?
Sorry for being confused :) Just get all racial Cruisers to lvl 3 (including whatever frig pre reqs) and you will max benefit from changes to those trees.
There are many more changes. Command ships is one of them. You sort of need to review all the changes to see what changes affect your own skill set / fleet / armada. |
Lord KesH
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 02:35:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Lord KesH wrote:So being confused of nature, I will ask here.
I have Destroyers and BC skills to V already.
What do I need to get maximum out of this change?
Will I need all Frigs and Cruisers to V or will less do?
Sorry for being confused :) Just get all racial Cruisers to lvl 3 (including whatever frig pre reqs) and you will max benefit from changes to those trees. There are many more changes. Command ships is one of them. You sort of need to review all the changes to see what changes affect your own skill set / fleet / armada.
Thank you for clearing that up. :)
Ill look into command ships as well, thou I already have that skill to 5 :)
|
Major Trant
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
152
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 12:58:00 -
[1043] - Quote
I can't understand the rational with making all T1 Industrial ships only require, racial Industrial I (pre-reg Spaceship Command III only). I can kinda understand the removal of the racial Frigate III prereq. But dropping them all down to racial Industrial I as well?
After the patch why would anyone train anything other than Gallente Industrial I and then fly an Iteron V? Aside from the fact that they are prereqs for the T2 Industrials and Freighters and the vets that have already invested in the skills and ships. Any player who trains and gets into any other T1 Industrial now, will do so purely because they haven't understood the changes. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1293
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 13:03:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:I can't understand the rational with making all T1 Industrial ships only require, racial Industrial I (pre-reg Spaceship Command III only). I can kinda understand the removal of the racial Frigate III prereq. But dropping them all down to racial Industrial I as well?
After the patch why would anyone train anything other than Gallente Industrial I and then fly an Iteron V? Aside from the fact that they are prereqs for the T2 Industrials and Freighters and the vets that have already invested in the skills and ships. Any player who trains and gets into any other T1 Industrial now, will do so purely because they haven't understood the changes. Right up to the point the ships get rebalanced. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Major Trant
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
152
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 13:28:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Major Trant wrote:I can't understand the rational with making all T1 Industrial ships only require, racial Industrial I (pre-reg Spaceship Command III only). I can kinda understand the removal of the racial Frigate III prereq. But dropping them all down to racial Industrial I as well?
After the patch why would anyone train anything other than Gallente Industrial I and then fly an Iteron V? Aside from the fact that they are prereqs for the T2 Industrials and Freighters and the vets that have already invested in the skills and ships. Any player who trains and gets into any other T1 Industrial now, will do so purely because they haven't understood the changes. Right up to the point the ships get rebalanced. Well props for bringing that up, something I hadn't considered. But how do you balance 12 Industrial ships? There are only 2 stats that matter for them, cargo size and align time. People will max one or the other, not go for a compromise of the two. So two ships will be useful after the patch and the rebalance of them.
Currently skill training time is a huge factor in the choice and thus the viability of each ship. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2533
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 13:30:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Major Trant wrote:I can't understand the rational with making all T1 Industrial ships only require, racial Industrial I (pre-reg Spaceship Command III only). I can kinda understand the removal of the racial Frigate III prereq. But dropping them all down to racial Industrial I as well?
After the patch why would anyone train anything other than Gallente Industrial I and then fly an Iteron V? Aside from the fact that they are prereqs for the T2 Industrials and Freighters and the vets that have already invested in the skills and ships. Any player who trains and gets into any other T1 Industrial now, will do so purely because they haven't understood the changes. Right up to the point the ships get rebalanced. Well props for bringing that up, something I hadn't considered. But how do you balance 12 Industrial ships? There are only 2 stats that matter for them, cargo size and align time. People will max one or the other, not go for a compromise of the two. So two ships will be useful after the patch and the rebalance of them. Currently skill training time is a huge factor in the choice and thus the viability of each ship.
In the same way as mining ships and other tiericeded classes - some will have more tank, some more cargo, some more agile etc.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Major Trant
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
152
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 14:11:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Roime wrote:In the same way as mining ships and other tiericeded classes - some will have more tank, some more cargo, some more agile etc. Last I heard, there were only 3 mining barges and a clear conflicting need to choose between survivability or ore hold, with a viable compromise of the two, but I'm no miner.
There are 12 Industrial ships all filling the same basic need and the only real choices are max cargohold or max GTFO. This is a vital early ship for a new player and shows one of the depth of the game. That research and intelligent selection, rewards in the long run. CCP have just dumbed it all down. Are they going to scrap the current 12 industrials and replace them with 2 or 3 ORE Industrials? |
Alexis Cornell
287 Marine Regiment
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 14:26:00 -
[1048] - Quote
One of my characters currently has 889,000 SP. He scouts, lights cynos, sits cloaked observing things and ferries new Frigates and Dessies into low sec for my main. Regularly he gets podded, but I don't have to worry about upgrading my clone and paying for clone insurance.
He has all the racial frigates at III and Dessies at II, after the patch he is going to get several thousand extra SP, which will push him over the 900K SP limit for basic clones.
I don't want them. I want to keep the ability to be podded without having to upgrade my clone. I would be happy to drop Dessie II, but don't have the choice. Can I get that choice or can CCP raise the basic Medical clone SP level by say 100K please. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2552
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 11:27:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Hey, here's an easy solution for your game-breaking disposable cyno alt:
don't upgrade the clone and you will get rid of SP
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2552
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 11:33:00 -
[1050] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:Roime wrote:In the same way as mining ships and other tiericeded classes - some will have more tank, some more cargo, some more agile etc. Last I heard, there were only 3 mining barges and a clear conflicting need to choose between survivability or ore hold, with a viable compromise of the two, but I'm no miner. There are 12 Industrial ships all filling the same basic need and the only real choices are max cargohold or max GTFO. This is a vital early ship for a new player and shows one of the depth of the game. That research and intelligent selection, rewards in the long run. CCP have just dumbed it all down. Are they going to scrap the current 12 industrials and replace them with 2 or 3 ORE Industrials?
There are 7 mining ships with different qualities, some better suited to different tasks than others. Earlier there where no such differences, some were just plain better than others.
Same happened with T1 frigs and cruisers- earlier some ships were just terribleler variations of the same ship, now they all have different strenghts.
I suspect CCP will give indies the same treatment- some will have better GTFO potential, others cargo, others slot layout suitable for null/whs, some will have more tank. These changes will probably be very radical, and for example Gallente might lose a few Itties.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1294
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 12:15:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Wouldn't surprise me to see an Indy with an Ore hold. Or possibly one allowing for refits. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8712
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 14:28:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:I can't understand the rational with making all T1 Industrial ships only require, racial Industrial I (pre-reg Spaceship Command III only). I can kinda understand the removal of the racial Frigate III prereq. But dropping them all down to racial Industrial I as well?
After the patch why would anyone train anything other than Gallente Industrial I and then fly an Iteron V? Aside from the fact that they are prereqs for the T2 Industrials and Freighters and the vets that have already invested in the skills and ships. Any player who trains and gets into any other T1 Industrial now, will do so purely because they haven't understood the changes.
Maybe for the same reason people train battlecruisers past level 2: Because you still get the 2 per-level bonuses from the hull? Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 18:05:00 -
[1053] - Quote
Hi What with pirate ships? You have not mention them. You treat them as navy or you don't change their skills requairment? |
Alexis Cornell
287 Marine Regiment
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:00:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Roime wrote:Hey, here's an easy solution for your game-breaking disposable cyno alt:
don't upgrade the clone and you will get rid of SP
Except I believe I will lose a level of either Cynosural Field Theory skill or Electronics V. Skills that I don't want to lose, give me the ability to choose what skills I lose or extend the pool to cover this eventually.
I planned my alt's skill train specifically to stay under the 900K cap, Destroyers II wasn't a necessity but I had the room to fit it in at the time. Now I'm having extra SP forced on me that I didn't ask for and don't want and clearly this problem wasn't foreseen by CCP. |
Nakamata
Trinity Council Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 06:40:00 -
[1055] - Quote
So if i dont have say galente frig/cruiser to 3 do i get the unallocated skill points ? or what? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8918
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 14:17:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Nakamata wrote:So if i dont have say galente frig/cruiser to 3 do i get the unallocated skill points ? or what?
No, you have to have NO frig/cruiser to 3.
1 Kings 12:11
|
HybridOnslaught
New Eden Is A Mess
21
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:25:00 -
[1057] - Quote
This may have been asked but us that wasted time training mining barge to fly an Orca will there be any thing done for that. because its 1mil of wasted sp that could be better used. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 19:31:00 -
[1058] - Quote
HybridOnslaught wrote:This may have been asked but us that wasted time training mining barge to fly an Orca will there be any thing done for that. because its 1mil of wasted sp that could be better used. It's not wasted. You can fly mining barges still.
The fact that you chose to train a skill you didn't want isn't CCP's fault. |
Zae-Yun Stekahl
Elder Guard Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 14:46:00 -
[1059] - Quote
i agree with the initiative to make the prerequisites of ships more relevant to the ship themselves. I have noticed that this has drastically changed some of the ship training times. I do agree with most of them, but I feel that drop on the ORCA is to great. I would suggest making Leadership 5 a requirement to fly the ship, as you need it to use the mining foreman links. I personally don't see why you'd want to train for one and not use the foreman links.
Either that or remove the mining director prerequisite, and I don't really feel like that't the right solution. I don't really see why you need to train mining director(which gives no boosts on it's own) but not leadership 5, which is needed to make mining director useful.
NOTE: If this has already been posted, count this as support for the motion.
EDIT: To the above post. It to an extent is. They could have chosen not to train it, but they NEEDED to, whether they liked it or not, to fly the ORCA. I personally wouldn't mind it to much, just because you can't mine in an ORCA (would be cool though). |
MoX Philo Magistus
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 12:23:00 -
[1060] - Quote
As for
Quote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
What skills are moved to free allocation pool come june 4th? Current, before patch dessi/bc skill points I already put in, or after patch racial dessie/bc SP. No, I cant fly neither ship types. |
|
Anariasis
Boris Johnson's Love Children
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 23:14:00 -
[1061] - Quote
I don't have the time to read all 1000+ postings in this thread, so forgive me if this has been said several times before:
Many people, including myself, live in wormholes. We do fly a lot of carriers there, but we never ever use their jump-drive. We can't even use their jump drive, even if we wanted to. Most of the people I know, do not even use their carriers jump-drive when they buy it. You just buy one in the low/0.0 system your wormhole happens to be in, and if you dont find any on the market there you'll find one a couple days later. Or you just build inside ur wormhole. Adding all those jump-drive skills to the carrier prerequisites is just adding weeks of skilltime to have a function you cannot use. Why? (Yes I know, we dont have to train the BS skill to V anymore then, but still, BS V is a usefull skill, jump drive operation etc. is totally wasted time) |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 11:22:00 -
[1062] - Quote
you have no chance for this i supose, they usualy only make people angry and make their miserable life more harder :)
i have question abaut jump frighters, after industrail and frighters skil rebalancing, what we see in jump frighter skils requrements? racial industrial 5 or avdenced space ship comand 5 and racial industrial 3 ? or somting else? |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 22:39:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Why are you changing skill prerequisites instead of adding skills to ship requirements? This way you can achieve the same time to fly a ship but in more flexible way. Like making every command ship require its racial bonus instead of command ship skill requiring all the bonuses.
I think skill prerequisites should be as little as possible so nobody would argue that they make sense. Also this will make pilot's life easier because of more freedom in skill training order. |
Stan Blake
YA SQUAD S2N Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 14:47:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund. CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:
As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is rank 2, Battlecruisers is rank 6. Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*2*3=1865520 SP However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*6*4=7462080 SP
It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!
Where am I wrong? |
Ezio Sotken
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 16:06:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Stan Blake wrote:Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund. CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:
As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*2*3=1865520 SP However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*6*4=7462080 SP
It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!
Where am I wrong?
You are counting all 4 skills for destroyers and battlecruisers. If you think of it this way
You have BC V DS V
The refund should give 3x the sp per skill.
Look at it this way On June 4 , they remove the default battlecruiser skill and credits the sp total into your allocation pool. Then they credit your character the Skill Points needed to get the other 3 battlecruiser skills to lvl 5 . This gives you all the sp for all. 4 skills to get them to level 5 ( unless its going to be done automatically, unsure)
Same should be for the destroyer skill.
This explanation makes sense to me, but if I missed something, please say so. |
Stan Blake
YA SQUAD S2N Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:52:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Hey, now it really makes sense. It is still more than 6.2 mil SP (around 7.5) but far from 10 mil=) Thanks for ur view of the matter) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
657
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:13:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Stan Blake wrote:Hey, now it really makes sense. It is still more than 6.2 mil SP (around 7.5) but far from 10 mil=) Thanks for ur view of the matter) Your math is off. The total SP in a rank 1 skill is 256k @ lvl 5. The amount you trained in lvl's 1-4 is already counted towards that, it is not another 256K added on after lvl 4. Same for the prior levels. |
Stan Blake
YA SQUAD S2N Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:22:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Stan Blake wrote:Hey, now it really makes sense. It is still more than 6.2 mil SP (around 7.5) but far from 10 mil=) Thanks for ur view of the matter) Your math is off. The total SP in a rank 1 skill is 256k @ lvl 5. The amount you trained in lvl's 1-4 is already counted towards that, it is not another 256K added on after lvl 4. Same for the prior levels. Great dude! Now u've clarified it all to me! o7 |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:40:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Stan Blake wrote:Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund. CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:
As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*2*3=1865520 SP However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*6*4=7462080 SP
It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!
Where am I wrong? It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill.
Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else.
For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained.
You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you.
Edit: from the dev blog:
Quote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed. |
Ezio Sotken
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:14:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Stan Blake wrote:Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund. CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:
As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*2*3=1865520 SP However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*6*4=7462080 SP
It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!
Where am I wrong? It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill. Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else. For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained. You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you. Edit: from the dev blog: Quote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
Ok, I am confused here. I have all racial frigate and cruiser skills to at least 4 . Does the above apply in my case? |
|
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:02:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Ezio Sotken wrote: Ok, I am confused here. I have all racial frigate and cruiser skills to at least 4 . Does the above apply in my case?
You will get all racial destroyer and BC skills to whatever level you currently have destroyers and BC at, if you have all racial frigate and cruiser skills to 3 or more.
You don't get free SP to spend how you please. You get the skills trained directly. If you don't qualify for all skills, you only get the skills you qualify for. If you qualify for no skills, you get "free" SP as a refund only of what you've already trained, not of what you could've gotten if you'd planned better. |
Stan Blake
YA SQUAD S2N Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:40:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Stan Blake wrote:Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund. CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:
As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*2*3=1865520 SP However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*6*4=7462080 SP
It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!
Where am I wrong? It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill. Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else. For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained. You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you. Edit: from the dev blog: Quote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed. Ur gonna laugh at me?! C'mon man!.. And now read my lips! Again, from the same dev blog: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". Additional, i.e. much more than u've spent training. As simple as that. And with all the less emotional and more informative comments above, it really makes sense. 256000*2*4*3=6144000 SP. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2718
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:48:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Stan Blake wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Stan Blake wrote:Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund. CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:
As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*2*3=1865520 SP However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool: 310920*6*4=7462080 SP
It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!
Where am I wrong? It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill. Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else. For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained. You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you. Edit: from the dev blog: Quote:If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed. Ur gonna laugh at me?! C'mon man!.. And now read my lips! Again, from the same dev blog: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". Additional, i.e. much more than u've spent training. As simple as that. And with all the less emotional and more informative comments above, it really makes sense. 256000*2*4*3=6144000 SP.
You get only Destroyers V turned into Minmatar Destroyer V and BC V reimbursed as freely allocatable SP. One time.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Stan Blake
YA SQUAD S2N Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:17:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Hm... With all these discouraging eye-opening comments I still wonder where these 6 mil SP come from. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2727
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:42:00 -
[1075] - Quote
That sentence in the dev blog is unclear- it means if you can fly all four dessies and four BCs at level V, the skill change results in your character sheet having 8 new skills, and two old skills removed.
Compared to current SP, this means about 6.2 mil SP.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
215
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:12:00 -
[1076] - Quote
Why would anyone ever use anything but the Iteron V?
At least with old system you had the best hauler for least training = amarr, best hauler for a lot of training = iteron mk5. Now you just have Itty V king.
Also why would you require every kind of Warfare spec for Command ships and not just say Amarr = Armored and Skirmish, when they are not even bonused for the other two. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
662
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:20:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Stan Blake wrote:Hm... With all these discouraging eye-opening comments I still wonder where these 6 mil SP come from. That number is the maximum possible SP increase assuming the following skills are trained: Battlecruiser 5 Destroyer 5 All racial frigates at 4 (only 3 is needed for the destroyer refund, but 4 to inject the cruiser skills) All racial cruisers at 3
Less than that will receive a lower SP increase or none at all. Basic math for determining SP bloat if you have trained for the affected ships: (Number of races you fly - 1)*(Amount of SP you have in Destroyers + Battlecruisers) |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:24:00 -
[1078] - Quote
The 6mil SP is the approximate additional total SP your character will have after the split if you received all of the new racial BC/destroyer skills at 5.
You don't get unallocated SP, you get the skills directly. That's what the warning was about--make sure your clone supports that much extra, or you might have a nasty surprise later. |
Tryaz
Improvised Tactics
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:48:00 -
[1079] - Quote
At fanfest CCP announced their intention to re-group skills in to more intuitive and therefore useable categoriese, +1 for this, it's a good thing for new players.
However I was a little annoyed by the name of the skill group Starship Piloting which is a combination of the old groups Spaceship Command and Subsystems.
Combine the categories, that makes sense but please just leave it as Spaceship Command.
In any case Starship Piloting is basically an exact synonym for Spaceship Command: and a far less classy and appropriate one at that in my opinion. Aesthetics and personal taste aside I feel strongly that a capsuleer does MUCH more than simply pilot his ship and so commander is a more appropriate title.
The changes are great but please keep the needless. hairsplitting ones to a minimum Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2789
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 05:06:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:Roime wrote:In the same way as mining ships and other tiericeded classes - some will have more tank, some more cargo, some more agile etc. Last I heard, there were only 3 mining barges and a clear conflicting need to choose between survivability or ore hold, with a viable compromise of the two, but I'm no miner. There are 12 Industrial ships all filling the same basic need and the only real choices are max cargohold or max GTFO. This is a vital early ship for a new player and shows one of the depth of the game. That research and intelligent selection, rewards in the long run. CCP have just dumbed it all down. Are they going to scrap the current 12 industrials and replace them with 2 or 3 ORE Industrials?
You sure?
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We're changing the skill requirements for Industrials as with all other ships for Odyssey.
However, the roles / attributes themselves will have to stay as they are for a while longer - we initially planed for them to go in the expansion as well, but they slipped out due to lack of time.
Tech1 Industrial overhaul has a high priority on our balanc-o-meter though - once battleships are updated, they'll be the last tech1 sub-capital hulls that need to go through the Tiericide fires.
Plans we have for them so far is to have the same kind of treatment than we've done with the Mining Barges. Have one Industrial variation with good mobility, low EHP and low cargo for quickly moving things around, another with low mobility, low EHP and high cargo for bulk transport and the last one with good defenses but poor mobility / cargo to compensate.
Which of course poses a problem with Gallente industrials and their 5 variations - as CCP Fozzie keeps saying all the time, if all else fail we'll shuffle the last two unused Iteron variations to have a dedicated bay for Spiced Wine and Exoctic Dancers
src: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=234648&find=unread
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
|
Caera Baera
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:26:00 -
[1081] - Quote
First of all, sorry for asking this because i bet it has come up before. In my defense, i read the first 2 and the last 7 pages of this thread, but sadly i am on limited time.
Are all these changes happening in the june 4th patch? Specifically the Command Ship skill requirement changes. I though at some point that those would come in a later patch, thus giving me more time to train them. But today I looked at all available information and could find no such statements. Have i been dreaming about EVE again? |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:37:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Caera Baera wrote:First of all, sorry for asking this because i bet it has come up before. In my defense, i read the first 2 and the last 7 pages of this thread, but sadly i am on limited time.
Are all these changes happening in the june 4th patch? Specifically the Command Ship skill requirement changes. I though at some point that those would come in a later patch, thus giving me more time to train them. But today I looked at all available information and could find no such statements. Have i been dreaming about EVE again? All of the skill changes will happen in the initial Odyssey patch. Get your training done ASAP. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:26:00 -
[1083] - Quote
@CCP - is there any reason for leaving JFs with their racial Indy V skill in tact? Wouldn't it be better served as a T2 ship to just make Freighter V the prereq and remove the racial Indy V skill? Or, if Freighter V is too skill-intensive, perhaps increasing the jump-related skills? |
Inna Cristiana
The Black Talons Chapter Company of Spacefarers
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 19:25:00 -
[1084] - Quote
Why is it so easy to fly an Orca now?
I guess CCP just wants the profits from a million new alts being created and this update was a hidden tricky way of doing it.
Not cool. |
Shin Saisima
SQUIDS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 12:58:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Felicia Xavian wrote:that is an easier answer but a harder solution. Any ideas? I suppose you could die a few times without up to date clone to drop your skill points back down to where you want them. Unfortunately it seems likely that you'll also lose a few skills you want to keep. Then you have to retrain them. :( |
cybercop
Shirak SkunkWorks Amarrian Commandos
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 19:47:00 -
[1086] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Nightlund Audeles wrote:Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca. Nope, sorry Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh.
I am still vexed about this. Refound the skills not needed anymore and IF "Mining Barge V" is so useful I will "buy it back".
(On a sidenote - CCP please fire Mr. Ytterbium for inappropriate responses. Thank you.) |
Celly S
Viziam Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:42:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Ethan Revenant wrote:They laughed at me at the academy when I trained armored, siege, info, and skirmish to V! Laughed! But I have the last laugh now!
I have multiple toons with all leadership skills to 5 already :)
o/ Celly Smunt Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade Republic Alliance
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:10:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Don't change the skills, there is no good reason to except to appeal to new characters and alts who are meant to babysit supercaps. Endgame content is endgame content. It's already bad enough that you can jump straight into a T3 with less than 10mil sp, now we'll have people running around in Nighthawks and Black Ops with the same amount of experience as a day 4 trial account. The entire point of the original SP setup was to make upper tiers of ships deliberately restrictive, taking that out is just a slap in the face. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:48:00 -
[1089] - Quote
Korinne wrote:Don't change the skills, there is no good reason to except to appeal to new characters and alts who are meant to babysit supercaps. Endgame content is endgame content. It's already bad enough that you can jump straight into a T3 with less than 10mil sp, now we'll have people running around in Nighthawks and Black Ops with the same amount of experience as a day 4 trial account. The entire point of the original SP setup was to make upper tiers of ships deliberately restrictive, taking that out is just a slap in the face. Apparently you missed the part where the training time to get into a command ship hasn't actually gone down--it just leaves you training things that are actually relevant to command ships, rather than needing to train other T2 ships. |
San Gun Rok
Intergalactical Chillers
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 20:08:00 -
[1090] - Quote
What happens, if I am training BC-Skill to lvl5 and now comes the patch and change the skills, what happens to my training skill, that is still training? Does it just takes one Racial Skill to finish, or does it ends the old skill? |
|
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2930
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 20:23:00 -
[1091] - Quote
San Gun Rok wrote:What happens, if I am training BC-Skill to lvl5 and now comes the patch and change the skills, what happens to my training skill, that is still training? Does it just takes one Racial Skill to finish, or does it ends the old skill?
The Devblog You Didn't Read wrote:Skill queues having Destroyer and/or Battlecruiser in-training will be paused at the time of the change. If you expect to be away for a long time when the reimbursement hits, please make sure you donGÇÖt train either of these skills.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
82
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:16:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Regarding the skills in queue: Can we expect the skill transition during a regular downtime (which will be extended in case of problems) or will the maintenance start earlier for the summer patch? I.e. if the battlecruiser skill in my queue will be finished before 10:59 EVE time, will the queue continue regularly as long as the next skill is one that's not affected by the patch? |
Ame Umida
Occupational Hazzard Get Off My Lawn
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:26:00 -
[1093] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:CCP You are contradicting yourself and screwing things up here. Quote:We are changing skill requirements to keep a training time close to what we have in game right now and to make sure players meet more relevant prerequisites when gearing for Capital Ships Wrong.... Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days Orca > 49 days to 17 days These are clearly not "close to what we have in game right now" You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships. This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class. The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless. If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.
And that's a bad thing how? The way I see it you just don't want the price you have to pay to for a replacement carrier to go up. If a 3 month old toon wants to fly a Carrier good for him it means he will need to buy a new one when he afk rats and gets blown up because he got tackled because he wasn't paying attention. Banzai for Dev Altered resource/training changes. |
Ame Umida
Occupational Hazzard Get Off My Lawn
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:27:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Regarding the skills in queue: Can we expect the skill transition during a regular downtime (which will be extended in case of problems) or will the maintenance start earlier for the summer patch? I.e. if the battlecruiser skill in my queue will be finished before 10:59 EVE time, will the queue continue regularly as long as the next skill is one that's not affected by the patch?
From the way I understand it, the regularly scheduled downtime will be extended. How long it will be extended I do not know however, that is what I have been told on the help channel. |
General Stewie
Grumpy Bastards Talocan United
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 20:44:00 -
[1095] - Quote
If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points
so i will have to be able to use every single tech 1 battlecruiser and destroyer in-game to be able to get additional 6.2 million skill points?
or i can get a couple mil skill points my in free allocation pool
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then an additional 6.2 mil skill points ? will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
111
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 01:53:00 -
[1096] - Quote
General Stewie wrote:If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points so i will have to be able to use every single tech 1 battlecruiser and destroyer in-game to be able to get additional 6.2 million skill points? or i can get a couple mil skill points my in free allocation pool If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then an additional 6.2 mil skill points ? will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed. This question has been answered multiple times.
The only way you get unallocated skill points is if you have Destroyers without any frigates or Battlecruisers without any cruisers. In that case you'll get the number of skill points you have in Destroyers or BC refunded. You don't get it multiplied by 4.
If you have any frigate skills you get no unallocated skill points from destroyers. If you have any cruiser skills you get no unallocated skillpoints from BCs. |
Lijhal
Innoruuks Wrath
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 12:01:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Caera Baera wrote:First of all, sorry for asking this because i bet it has come up before. In my defense, i read the first 2 and the last 7 pages of this thread, but sadly i am on limited time.
Are all these changes happening in the june 4th patch? Specifically the Command Ship skill requirement changes. I though at some point that those would come in a later patch, thus giving me more time to train them. But today I looked at all available information and could find no such statements. Have i been dreaming about EVE again?
if you already have the skillbook injected the new prerequisites do not affect you. CCP Ytterbium As designers, we can tell Caldari have three main points going for them as a race and that is, missile, hybrids and ECM. To be an all-rounded Caldari pilot, one must realize all aspects have to be considered and learned! |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
82
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 13:15:00 -
[1098] - Quote
Ame Umida wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Regarding the skills in queue: Can we expect the skill transition during a regular downtime (which will be extended in case of problems) or will the maintenance start earlier for the summer patch? I.e. if the battlecruiser skill in my queue will be finished before 10:59 EVE time, will the queue continue regularly as long as the next skill is one that's not affected by the patch? From the way I understand it, the regularly scheduled downtime will be extended. How long it will be extended I do not know however, that is what I have been told on the help channel.
I'd love to hear something official, but for the time being i'll be content with that :). Optimized my skillqueue to have BC end at 10:50 or so, but I have most of the free SP in reserve, just in case. |
ArmageddonX
Mining My Own Bussiness
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:37:00 -
[1099] - Quote
I am trying to understand this. I started playing in 2006. I picked Gallente by race but I have been flying Caldari ships since 2006.
I have 7 million SP in Missile skills and I plan to fly a Tengu soon but I do not have the skills for those yet.
Am I to understand that after this patch because I am Gallente by race that I will be unable to train for the Tengu, Phoenix, or any other Caldari ship that is released in the future because they are Caldari ships and I do not have the level 1 skills for them yet?
Please clear this up for me because if this is true I might as well cancel now. I've been flying Caldari for 7 years even though my race is Gallente and if I'm unable to fly Caldari ships then what's the point?
TL;TR: What happens after this patch when I am Gallente by Race and I want to fly a Caldari ship I don't have the skills for yet? |
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
The Three Musketeers
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 13:49:00 -
[1100] - Quote
On tranquility I have had every skill for Amarr Titan except Amarr Titan trained since last year. I didn't train it because I haven't got the money for the skillbook. Now, this morning, I log into Sisi and find that I have over 12 days to train before I can train Amarr Titan, which would have only taken an hour or two.
I see the humor here, but I am also very angry!
Yes, I could have paid more attention when I read the dev blog and could have planned ahead better.
I was all excited that I would be able to fly a titan after I got Sisi set up, and then this.
How do you call that fair? I'm ready to go, 1 hour 46 minutes away from a Titan on Tranq - for 6 months or more - and log into Sisi with the new and improved ship balancing and all of a sudden I'm 11 days and 18 hours away.
WHY, CCP, WHY?
HOW IS THIS FAIR AND BALANCED? Independent thinking is not encouraged in a professional Army. It is a form of mutiny. Obedience is the supreme virtueBritish Prime Minister Lloyd George, in his 'War Memoirs'-á |
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
624
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 15:46:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar wrote:On tranquility I have had every skill for Amarr Titan except Amarr Titan trained since last year. I didn't train it because I haven't got the money for the skillbook. Now, this morning, I log into Sisi and find that I have over 12 days to train before I can train Amarr Titan, which would have only taken an hour or two.
I see the humor here, but I am also very angry!
Yes, I could have paid more attention when I read the dev blog and could have planned ahead better.
I was all excited that I would be able to fly a titan after I got Sisi set up, and then this.
How do you call that fair? I'm ready to go, 1 hour 46 minutes away from a Titan on Tranq - for 6 months or more - and log into Sisi with the new and improved ship balancing and all of a sudden I'm 11 days and 18 hours away.
WHY, CCP, WHY?
HOW IS THIS FAIR AND BALANCED?
If you can fly it now, you can fly it after that patch.
You can't fly a titan now, so you won't be able to fly a titan after the patch. Fair & balanced.
Now, quit whining and go sell a few things (or beg for the ISK from someone nice), buy & inject the skillbook -- problem solved. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression - The only way to go! |
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
The Three Musketeers
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:20:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote: If you can fly it now, you can fly it after that patch.
You can't fly a titan now, so you won't be able to fly a titan after the patch. Fair & balanced.
Now, quit whining and go sell a few things (or beg for the ISK from someone nice), buy & inject the skillbook -- problem solved.
I think I covered the scenario pretty accurately. I also saw the humor in the situation and still do. Not really worried about it, things will work out. It would have been nice if there was a bit more of a transition rather than the cliff approach. I mean really, 106 minutes of training left and I get socked with an 11 day 16+ hour penalty? Thats like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Not a total success in the finesse department, lol.
I'm ok with it, no harm done. I admit I do have a short fuse on computer stuff sometimes. You write code for 40 years and see how long your fuse is :) Anyway, sometimes it's a good idea to speak up on minor matters like this, it could get one of the devs thinking and they might have a cool new idea to make things better. Independent thinking is not encouraged in a professional Army. It is a form of mutiny. Obedience is the supreme virtueBritish Prime Minister Lloyd George, in his 'War Memoirs'-á |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
86
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 18:16:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Regarding the skills in queue: Can we expect the skill transition during a regular downtime (which will be extended in case of problems) or will the maintenance start earlier for the summer patch? I.e. if the battlecruiser skill in my queue will be finished before 10:59 EVE time, will the queue continue regularly as long as the next skill is one that's not affected by the patch?
So, i asked this freaking 10 days ago.
And today: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/odyssey-to-be-deployed-june-4/
So, the pressing question: is the deadline for BC V the BEGINNING or the END of your downtime?
|
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
119
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 21:26:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Probably sometime in the middle--whenever they run the script.
Given that skill queues containing BC or destroyers will be paused during downtime, you're probably best off switching it to something else before downtime. You'll be able to finish off all the races within a couple of days anyway, and you won't lose training time from having your queue paused. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
86
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 06:38:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Probably sometime in the middle--whenever they run the script.
Given that skill queues containing BC or destroyers will be paused during downtime, you're probably best off switching it to something else before downtime. You'll be able to finish off all the races within a couple of days anyway, and you won't lose training time from having your queue paused.
Yeah, i will probably do that.
Could have been avoided though, if not for the moronic behaviour of neither answering my question for 10 f***ing days in their own feedback thread, nor even contradicting the apparently wrong estimate i was given by a player during that time in same. |
Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
49
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Posted - 2013.06.04 06:49:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar wrote:
I think I covered the scenario pretty accurately. I also saw the humor in the situation and still do. Not really worried about it, things will work out. It would have been nice if there was a bit more of a transition rather than the cliff approach. I mean really, 106 minutes of training left and I get socked with an 11 day 16+ hour penalty? Thats like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Not a total success in the finesse department, lol.
These skill changes were announced almost a year ago. If you still haven't managed to figure out which skills you have to train before this change, it's your own fault.
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Flash Bomb
Forgotten Union of Knackered Tradesfolk
0
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Posted - 2013.06.05 11:37:00 -
[1107] - Quote
I find it sad that CCP has encouraged the new players to get into ships quicker and yet totally forgot about its dedicated players and the time they have spent, (seeming waisted) on skills no longer necessary. e.g. the iteron V can now be trained by a noob in less than a day as preq's are same as the iteron I which they should get in tutorial. The interon range is abit of a joke now don't u think. And what will come of the value of the ships in between? Eve is about space ships but investment, and trade is a factor driving players to play eve aswell. If these skill changes have been thought about at all it wasn't deep enough.
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