Mixing up the Apoc with a damage bonus like the Hyperion so it ends up with only 6 high slots could be good fun. With some extra mids you'd actually have an Amarr ship that could be flown with a shield tank without it having a tonne of low slots to make it potentially tanky like the Abaddon. Alternatively you'd be able to fly it with a lot of tackle + cap booster, fit a MJD or some other utility, which would add some diversity to the Amarr Battleship fleet without taking away the current changes which I already like a lot.

(ofcourse with 6 turret slots it would just have to have that much needed model makeover ;))

Sure there is probably a good reason to not do the above, but it's just a quick thought!

That will never happen. It's just way too much damage.

well not as high as nightmare

The 6 turret idea is interesting. Lets have sth like 6 turrets+10%damage+range, with 7high 4mid 8low
so that is a 9 turret dps laser platform, lower dps and lower mobility than oracle, but better tank and range.

and a new beam platform? right?

I for one am impressed to the changes to the Amarr line up and can't wait to fly the APOC. I really can't see anything to complain about here particularly as much of its Cap bonus has been pushed into the hull itself. This thing with scorch will be simply awesome.

You knew a drone boat was coming and this change made sense. The Geddon is going to be a great boat, and a difficult one to deal with when facing one or more. Just getting tackle on it will make it a real pain and I can imagine already these ratting in null. They'll just insta neut the tackler that lands on them and warp out. In brawling fleets they'll make logi have to stay at range, making that logi now very susceptible to damps. I like it. Powerful addition to the T1 line up.

The loss of the 1% to armor resist per level I think is a mistake. Leaving it as it was would make a nice balance between choosing between armor 5% resists and shield 4% resists. Shields get all the benefits of speed and passive regen. This would help the overall balance between shield and armor. I know that it doesn't address the huge difference between active and passive armor tanking but that is clearly a problem with the poor armor reppers and how they work. This is evidenced in how ASB's evened out the playing field on the shield side. Why CCP is so stubborn on not addressing is odd, and for certain the AAR's certainly don't fix the problem.

But at the end of the day, with perhaps a bit different slot layout for diversity, overall they look really solid.

0.49 cap/s does not equate to "cap use bonus pushed to hull". I have this nagging doubt you even fly Amarr or comprehend just how much cap lasers use.

Let the Abaddon be the "stupid role" ship ( dmgXbuffer stoned in place without cap regen )

and the Apocalipse the "inteligente ship" ( self lol ) , having lower dps and buffer with better application and use ( 6 turret way as the Harbinger have , 10% dmg Xlvl and range over the cap use )

8 low slot can be OP but Amar have to have "8 low slots' ships"

Hula

1. We're not discussing faction ships here (Nightmare will likely get her own nail in the head later)
2. Nightmare is by far a special beast.

Megathron is getting an 8th low slot. See the irony here?

One thing I don't like about 6-gun Apocalypse is the model issue - it's graphical design is meant to use 8 guns (two nests of 4). Otherwise it's pretty solid and should be applied to all Amarr ships, that would help a lot with cap AND powergrid issues too.

0.49 cap/s does not equate to "cap use bonus pushed to hull". I have this nagging doubt you even fly Amarr or comprehend just how much cap lasers use.

when compared with Rokh or mealstorm this 6 turret idea is not that strong.
or maybe 7 turret with 5% bonues sounds better?

I do fly Amarr. I understand your concern and its vaild, but I also think that if its performing too poorly then CCP will revisit it and push some more Cap like he just did. They seem fairly reasonable at listening to players lately. What's nice about this boat is that you certainly don't have to rely on MWDing as much to get into range of primary during a fight like you do a blaster boat and that certainly helps. Have you EFT'd this with a cap booster to see how long the cap lasts? I have to imagine its fairly competitive. I can also see these flying around with the standard logi support, and getting topped off from time to time with Cap from them right? But the tracking bonus? well that is simply awesome.

And they are also proving that they are going back and addressing problems well after the first balancing pass. So if the APOC is a complete dud due to CAP and the argument is compelling, then you'll get your desires.

The optimal range bonus is something really good on the ships and IMO must be preserved as a distinctive factor ( even the oracle do NOT have it )

Now , without the cap bonus i will like really to see a dmg bonus , as already May Wanderdriven said, 7 hi-slot / 6 turret tachyons capable with 10% dmg bonus Xlvl and everyone will be happy , or give it a 7.5% RoF Xlvl always with 6 turret Hpoints and another low slot to counter the cap issue
( and make somehow return the old Armageddon way back )

Hula

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret damage and optimal range
+7.5% Large Energy Turret tracking speed (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Fixed the bonuses for a 6 turret Apoc. It brings it in just above the current 8 effective turrets at level 5.

7 or 8 turets with 5% damage and keep 7.5% optimal bonus, with slightly limited powergrid, so it can't fit all 8 Tachs without fitting modules - sounds fair to me.
The only issue so far that I'm concerned with is the buff to native cap regen, that flowing in air. It may make dual-rep tanks very viable. Too much viable.
I'd rather propose a flat role bonus to lasers cap consuption for laser ships, for easier tank balance.

1. It makes the ship 3-bonused. Which is unlikely to happen.
2. Please leave 8-turret Apocalypse alone. It is designed to work that way.

Insignificant Changes

While we understand that this is a very powerful ship, it should not be oppressive.

role bonus is not going to work. You are not going to have role bonus to only one race.
What are you going to give to the other 3?
I don't think a race should have no battle ship that could even fit 8 of their largest guns. The other 3 have, not Amarr.
So that is why I support the 6 turret idea, that is a kind of 8 turrets in another way.
Tachs with no cap bonus will eat up cap too fast, compared to others.
And thier pg requirement is just a bit too high.

I'll explain it. Lasers have advantages over other artillery: seemingly endless ammunition, instant ammo swap, relatively short cooldowns. To make up against using lasers on ships not intended to be, their cap consumption is also drastic, partially compensated by the cap consumption bonus. (As it is now, I mean.)
Making a role bonus to work against cap consumption for ship intended to use lasers does not impede other races in any way, but allow for more freedom in balancing other aspects of the ship hulls.
Also, hands off of the 8-turret Apocalypse.

OP updated for some slight tweaks to the Apocalypse and Armageddon. Cap stability increase for Apoc and a powergrid tweak for the armageddon.

Clearly you do not understand the concept of oppressive. It's current abilities are able to be countered successfully. Sticking on Neuts and Drones of Doom will make it Oppressive. Small Fleet fights will be nullified by just a handful of these ships, and larger ones will devolve into "Who can neut the capitals first"

Go back to the drawing board, CCP Rise. You have barely addressed any of the concerns held within this thread and, please do not believe for one minute that you will have that hideous Armageddon getting into the game in the state that you propose.

Or do you want me to actually produce a proper Armageddon design for you?


I also hope that you consider the other issues put into this thread, namely:

- Inability to mount top tier weapons (Tachyon Lasers)
- Reduction of effective capcitor by 50% from the removal of the Laser Cap bonuses
- Removal of the need to have Cap Boosters as a standard fitting (be it actually useful cap sizes or the return of the Laser Cap bonus - Cap regen amount is NOT helpful )
- Removal of the split weapons on the Armageddon

I would post more complaints, but I am currently on my lunch, so my time is limited.

After sleeping on it, the simplest statement of the problem with the Apoc change is that:
the new bonus to tracking doesn't synergize well with the optimal bonus.

When do you most need optimal? When you're far away.
When do you most need tracking? When you're closer to an orbiting target.

The cap bonus can synergize with any fit that uses lasers, but the tracking bonus isn't useful in as many situations. If you want to move away from cap bonuses, find something else that synergizes with optimal.

Some alternatives might include damage/level so tachyons at range become as good as pulses have been (since long range pulses are now out and the geddon no longer does high laser dps). A tracking disruption bonus would synergize well for small pvp although in pve it's still not useful. Tracking instead of cap is just a straight nerf to a ship that's not OP.

Boo to the Armageddon as a drone ship.

There's too much redundancy here if you make the Arma a drone ship whereas the Dominix is already a drone ship.

What would be the point?

I just want to say this:

Abaddon - Combat
Apocalypse - Attack
Armageddon - Disruption via Neut/Nos.

However, please actually call the Armageddon a "Disruption" battleship since that's basically what you've got here.

So with these changes. Not only will Amarr be the only race that can't use its highest tier tech 2 guns and remain cap stable.

None of these ships can even fit a rack of Tachyons. Which only the Scorpion shares with us, not being able to fit T2 torps.

All other T1 BS can fit the highest tier guns and remain cap stable with the basic high damage ammo, AM, EMP. without any other fittings.

MF makes all the Amarr BS unstable. And we have to use a slot to fix our power grid, and another slot to be able to keep firing.

This is with all level 5 skills btw. Which you know all those new Amarr players get immediately...

The cap instability needs to change at the BS level, either the ammo, guns or hulls. Hopefully without giving us that wasted cap use bonus back.

The powergrid use of the Turrets probably need to be reworked. With all the collective changes to all weapons systems Tachs are not so good that they shouldn't be able to be fit in this age of EVE. ( the only T1 non faction hull that can fit them and other modules, is the Oracle! So a BC can use BS guns but the BS can't fit them?!?!?! )

Eagerly awaiting a constructive reply to this thread by CCP.