And finaly, can't you use something better than a TC in this mid slot ? The Tempest have 5 utility mid slots, so I'm sceptical about using it as any other low utility BS. A second web, ECCM or EWAR would serve it better IMO if not in 1v1 BS fights which isn't its niche anyway, because the Typhoon and Maelstrom will probably do that better.

Even with 1 gyro on the tempest vs 5 turrets and 2 mfs's on the megathron - the megathron still does more dps at point blank, is still faster and more agile, but this time with 10% more EHP.

i agree with you

but i still wonder did you put cap boosters 25 in there so the ship looses in runtime too? cause you put navy (guess 400 cant see) in the other.

You forgot to add explosive damage and cap usage and and and...

Seriously, it's getting pathetic now.

The previous (4 slot tank) tempest without DCU II's has 67918 EHP, (5 slot tank) megathron 79,988 EHP, the tempest has 250 more armour EHP (+1%), but much lower armour resists against the others damage type (therm/kin, vs explosive) And its still slower.

Chart.

Red = 5x Neutron Blasters, 2x MFS - Megathron
Green = 6x 800mm autocannons, 1x Gyro, Tracking Computer/Optical Range - Tempest
Blue = 5x 425mm rails, 2x MFS - Megathron

Top graph, 0 transversal
Bottom graph, 153m transferal - megathron


Within 20km, you doing better dps with a neutron blasterthron (ignoring ehp) off with a megathron doing what an armour tanking tempest is apparently designed to do. Beyond that range, you're better with 425mm rails and antimatter, before even looking at ehp or speed.

I responded (foolishly in retrospect) to your plea to compare the tempest with megathron - given that a typically fit blaster mega out damaged the tempest so severely with 7 turrets, I decided to see what would happen if I replaced a few with neuts... low and behold, it still did more damage, was faster, etc etc.

I overestimated your ability to see at just exactly what I was getting at, to see what apples vs apples looked like and extrapolate what would happen with different fits, you brought meaningless 1v1 examples like sig radius or armour ehp and thus descended down to this mess!

And just incase that wasn't a typo, the tempest would never lose a low slot for a mid AND a low.

It was high slot and if the ship is meant to avoid taking too much damage via it's lower sig it will in fleets as well. Dispite being highly unlikely let's look at a fleet battle of tempests vs megathrons, if the tempests could maintain didtance they could apply damage outside blaster range or get under railgun range and have you actually tested how they stack against each other with your fits and with fits people actually use?

I'm saying that yoy should look at the ARMOR difference not the total ehp because it makes a bigger difference when you can get your resists over 60, or do you perfer hull tanking?

But because you've got less slots for tanking, you've got lower resists anyway.

AND re: signature - +50% tracking (blasters/autocannons) > +5% signature

DID you checked taht graph he posted? There is no place where tempest can do that inside disruptor range. And on fleet fights the signature will not help the tempest because of range. Signature is very useful when you are fighting dreads, that is true, but the megathron doe snto have a large signature as well.

Even him admited that this megathron vs tempest comparisson was worthless.

BTW, I wouldn't expect anything but torps to outdps blasters in disruptor range.

Competitors of the Tempest are the 5 midslots BS IMO (high utility, not so fleet BS) : Typhoon and Hyperion. The Typhoon will need its mid slots to apply its torp damages. The Hyperion though will eat the Tempest in almost any situation, the exception being if you need to hit far (which is still a valuable quality of AC). So the Tempest may be a little more versatile than the Hyperion, at the price of a lot less effectiveness at closer ranges.

But is this due to the Hyperion being OP ? Or to the Tempest being underpowered ? I think the 10% damage bonuses CCP used in the tiericide removed a good part of the interest in the double damage bonuses of minmatar ships. The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).

Beign able to outdps the blaster ship only at ranges where your damage is already 40% of your base damage is not really powerful advantage. Specially since that role is completely OWNED by Pulse lasers.

What would be the role of pulse or blasters if AC could outdps them in their niche ? AC are better at close range than pulse, and better at long range than blasters. That's what it has always been to my knowledge, and that can't be different.

Now, if you are saying that blasters superiority range over AC is too long, then I will agree.

But is this due to the Hyperion being OP ? Or to the Tempest being underpowered ? I think the 10% damage bonuses CCP used in the tiericide removed a good part of the interest in the double damage bonuses of minmatar ships. The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).

The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).

I do not want AC to outdps lasers or blasters in their ROle. Just statign that its FAKE advantage that peopel say the tempest have oevr blaster boats. And taht the ship need another REAL role, since the fantasy of tempest beign a great damage projection ship is just a fantasy.

being second everywhere is the recepy for FAILURE in this game. IT could not be IF the tempest was faster than any gallente or ammar boat so that It coudl decide the range... but Nooo megatron is faster.... hyperion is faster (with MWD overheated)....

Tempest need to be FASTER and weight LESS than megatron otherwise it wil be utterly outclassed (specially when you bring in the drones difference as well)

What drone difference? If you haven't noticed, th mega can't field as much as a phoon, however I will happily trade the mega's tiny speed advantage for it to swap drone bays with the phoon.

Phoon looks efficient but not minmatar.

If you want to kill its ability to use 3 weapon systems, at least leave it with two and not one. Give its drones back.

Maybe 125/125 so it has to make a choice between versatility and full dps, or else it would be a bit OP.

It still has it's turret hardpoints, it's the drones that make it not minmatar like, take a look at the other missile ships with a sizeable drone bay, besides the cyclone (I think?) None of the use a full flight of drones for that size of ship (breacher can't use 5 lights, bellicose can't use 5 meds and the same for the loki, however again I'm unsure of the cyclone.) At the most, the phoon only needs 100/100.

Edit:

Cyclone has been given full bandwidth, 50/50.
Same on Typhoon would allow for some versatility, either full dps or medium and spares.

The turrets are a joke (unbonused, with only one utility high...).

CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????

CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????

Edit:

Cyclone has been given full bandwidth, 50/50.
Same on Typhoon would allow for some versatility, either full dps or medium and spares.

The turrets are a joke (unbonused, with only one utility high...).

Ye, shieldmodules require less PG, so you can easily fit artillery. Also, a shieldhyperion can currently fit 8 425mm t2-rails without any issue. What is the problem again?

CCP

Why does the Maelstrom have the same powergrid as the abbadon and Apoc?
It seems its too allow for arties to fit but the amarr can't fit beams and can just about fit pulses seems a bit odd...
The Maelstroms role is to brawl as its ASB bonus suggests ... compare it to Hyperion who can't even fit neutrons.... balance anyone????

I think the problem was not mael having a lot of PG, but Amarr having not enough PG to fit beams.

...and they adressed it too: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224896&find=unread

After changes an apoc can fit a full rack of megabeams and will have more spare PG than a Mael. Though having a full rack of beams has some other issues, which is outside scope of this thread.

[quote=Jonas Sukarala]

I think the problem was not mael having a lot of PG, but Amarr having not enough PG to fit beams.

...and they adressed it too: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224896&find=unread

After changes an apoc can fit a full rack of megabeams and will have more spare PG than a Mael. Though having a full rack of beams has some other issues, which is outside scope of this thread.

An active tank bonus on the Typhoon is an absurdly terrible idea. It cannot fit dual ASB's, and its Capacitor is far too weak to sustain a cap based tank. Giving it an active tank bonus means either forcing it into using double Cap Boosters, thus completely destroying any utility it has while also gimping its tank to an insane degree, or it means reversing its Mid/Low slot layout, which makes it a crappier Raven.

Giving it an Armor rep bonus is an equally bad idea, because simply put, nobody would use it because the ship is better Shield tanked.

One ASB simply does not cut it on a BS with 5 mids. Your resists are too low to keep up with incoming DPS, and your buffer is too small to survive a reload.