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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1656
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:17:00 -
[61] - Quote
maybe you could give cruise missiles uniqueness by making them accelerate over the entire flight path. This would make flight time pretty much the same for long and medium range encounters, but wouldn't create an instant hit weapon at close range. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Marcus Walkuris
Pro Synergy Frozen Shipyards
4
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:17:00 -
[62] - Quote
Feedback as requested.
1. Much of Heavy sized launcher's problem is a lack of "tracking" and tracking options such as modules instead of just rigs, and target painters (also modules yes but E-war and a giant SP investment for newbs like me).
2. The missile resolution statement leaves us confused wether you mean missiles will have have a larger explosion radius (tracking nerf) or wether they'll get a buff in accuracy/tracking. As trackung issues are THE factor that really cripple applied dps on BS size launchers (which is aleardy lower by a huge margin in base dps).
3.As many before have stated I myself also advocate to not increase launcher fire rate but to increase alpha/volley damage. It is the only logical trade off/reward for having flight time/delayed damage and it makes intuitive and logical sense for missiles to do more volley damage then guns since they're flying bombs. When you think of yourself flying an F-16 fighter jet and you fire missiles you think "ohh yeh going all out now" the nose cannon is more of a sustained damage story. Yet as it stands it is the complete opposite in EvE.
4. Reiterating the previous point on the basis of uniqueness and flavor (explanation following) A common complaint from the community is they either perceive or fear uniformity with the changes to faction weapon systems. For example Amarr was announced to become the second drone based faction even though they armror tank like Gallente and already have a pretty solid split between missiles and lasers in sub Battleship hulls. Leaving people with the feeling everyone becomes everyone at the moment. I'd say seize the moment when it comes to missiles to add some uniqueness.
5. What is the math on increasing rate of fire for cruise missiles and how it influences long term dps in terms of reload times. I am not much of the EFT warrior especially without a functioning windows computer, but cruise and torpedoes have much lower ammo counts compared to guns. How much long term dps is lost on 5% faster missile fire rate due to reloading with small clips??
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
207
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:19:00 -
[63] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Way more than I expected, tbh. Only problem I see: Rof means a rof bonused ship will go through cargo even faster and missiles are pretty large to carry around in the first place. Perhaps consider reducing the size of missiles?
Torps have this problem so bad. CCP should fix. |
Iranite
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
0
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Could you explain what's awesome in turning Cruise missiles into Railguns? Edit: a worse version of railguns, as you see from the post below.
I don't see where these are the same as Railguns. Railguns behave differently. Missiles will always be missiles, they have their own strenghts and weaknesses, thats what some call over powered, and others useless.
I now have a reason to train into cruise missiles, rather than just "skipping" them. It fits my play style, and i believe many others' too. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
362
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:21:00 -
[65] - Quote
Cool thing - I do wish however that cruise missiles would fly faster, but had a slower acceleration to make the top speed... Like once a cruise missile passed the 50km range the missile would fly like 10-12km/s until hitting target? Would make it more difficult to "warp before impact" at longer ranges... |
SongSinger
BlitzStrike
0
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:24:00 -
[66] - Quote
Suppose that Tempest is moving at a speed of 120 m / s and has a signature 360 meters. Raven shoots him with cruise missiles (fury) (velocity _ of explosion 91 m / s, the radius of of explosion 403 meters), all skills 5,, implants: +5% velocity blast, 5% explosion radius) even at such a low speed of Tempest, damage reduction would be about 32% correct me if I'm wrong |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
398
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
so all these changes mean is a cruise missle will hit a bs harder if it is sitting still. but if it moves the ages old problem that was created during the speed nerf still remains, they cant hit anything that is smaller than a bs or moving.
awesome buff for mission runners OMG when can i get a pic here
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Mister Vee
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
32
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mister Vee wrote:if firewall doesn't get nerfed to **** you may aswell give them infinite volley damage, because in no relevant fight will they ever hit anything How come this didn't apply to Drakes or Tengus? Honest question.
not sure what you mean, firewall effectively killed all missile doctrines in large scale 0.0 warfare
my first post was a little snarky and I'm all for 'personal skill' making a difference, but in its current form a few dedicated smartbombing ships can nullify an entire fleets worth of damage. even more so from ships that don't move very fast (like ravens) |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
0
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:28:00 -
[69] - Quote
Iranite wrote:I don't see where these are the same as Railguns. Railguns behave differently. Missiles will always be missiles, they have their own strenghts and weaknesses, thats what some call over powered, and others useless.
I now have a reason to train into cruise missiles, rather than just "skipping" them. It fits my play style, and i believe many others' too. Alright, I'll say it in other words. Why do you prefer cruise over rails? Well, other than aesthetic and "just because I like" reasons. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
633
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:28:00 -
[70] - Quote
SongSinger wrote:Suppose that Tempest is moving at a speed of 120 m / s and has a signature 360 meters. Raven shoots him with cruise missiles (fury) (velocity _ of explosion 91 m / s, the radius of of explosion 403 meters), all skills 5,, implants: +5% velocity blast, 5% explosion radius) even at such a low speed of Tempest, damage reduction would be about 32% correct me if I'm wrong
Now stop using Fury and use the correct ammo. Full damage. |
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Marcus Walkuris
Pro Synergy Frozen Shipyards
4
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
Don't like the changes. Applied dps is a mayor issue, this change actually is terribad.
As everyone has been saying BS size missile systems suffer horrible applied dps vs guns.
That is with already lower base damage, essentially you just created equality in "on paper dps" and widened the applied dps gap even more knowing full well we cant use low slot passive modules to increase tracking/accuracy for missiles.
This is literally giving with one hand and taking with the other. Why is it okay for missiles to be decent vs BS&BC and for guns to be good v.s. all, even frigates under the right circumstances. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
239
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:31:00 -
[72] - Quote
SongSinger wrote:Suppose that Tempest is moving at a speed of 120 m / s and has a signature 360 meters. Raven shoots him with cruise missiles (fury) (velocity _ of explosion 91 m / s, the radius of of explosion 403 meters), all skills 5,, implants: +5% velocity blast, 5% explosion radius) even at such a low speed of Tempest, damage reduction would be about 32% correct me if I'm wrong
It's about 11% before resists.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=901280
Seeing CCP Rise's second message, it kinda makes sense - they wanted to increase the damage output of the cruises, but without them turning into frigate slaughtering machines with Precisions. I don't necessarily agree with this assessment, but it's logical from their point of view. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
398
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:SongSinger wrote:Suppose that Tempest is moving at a speed of 120 m / s and has a signature 360 meters. Raven shoots him with cruise missiles (fury) (velocity _ of explosion 91 m / s, the radius of of explosion 403 meters), all skills 5,, implants: +5% velocity blast, 5% explosion radius) even at such a low speed of Tempest, damage reduction would be about 32% correct me if I'm wrong Now stop using Fury and use the correct ammo. Full damage.
I thought fury's were ment to be the anti bs ammo type? OMG when can i get a pic here
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Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
429
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
Mister Vee wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mister Vee wrote:if firewall doesn't get nerfed to **** you may aswell give them infinite volley damage, because in no relevant fight will they ever hit anything How come this didn't apply to Drakes or Tengus? Honest question. not sure what you mean, firewall effectively killed all missile doctrines in large scale 0.0 warfare my first post was a little snarky and I'm all for 'personal skill' making a difference, but in its current form a few dedicated smartbombing ships can nullify an entire fleets worth of damage. even more so from ships that don't move very fast (like ravens) Im not sure if smartbombs will work at all due to insane missile speed (10k/s) and server ticks of 1 sec.
meaning that cruise will probably have past the SB radius before the server tics and they wont be effected at all, theoretically the smartbomb /should/ kill the cruise, but i want to test it first. |
Lazarus Telraven
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
41
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:32:00 -
[75] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mister Vee wrote:if firewall doesn't get nerfed to **** you may aswell give them infinite volley damage, because in no relevant fight will they ever hit anything How come this didn't apply to Drakes or Tengus? Honest question.
It does apply to drakes and tengus. Thats why no one uses Heavy Missiles anymore in large scale PVP every fleet has dedicated firewall ships to stop missiles.
Ham Tengus own now since their ROF and Range make it easy for them to get under smartbombs.
With these cruise changes one Tech3 ship with 4-5 Medium Faction SMartbombs can stop a huge portion of the damage by staggering his smartbombs |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4586
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:36:00 -
[76] - Quote
Good to know. I was under the impression that it was the HM nerf that did in missile doctrines, but since you two have way more experience for obvious reasons I defer to your judgment.
Maybe missiles should be given more HP? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Sparkus Volundar
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
42
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:38:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:This will of course be more than offset by the increase in base damage, but the idea is that the performance increase will be more substantial for larger targets.
The damage boost does indeed more than offset it but is the final balance relative to much shorter ranged Torps where it needs to be?
Sorry to quote myself but it seems that T2 high damage Cruise could work better against battleships-sized targets and below than T2 high damage Torps (not check other missile types though). Sorry again if my maths is off.
Sparkus Volundar wrote:CCP Rise wrote:10% increase in signature resolution for all Cruise Missiles Explosion Radius? Edit: If it is ER and I have used the missile damage forum correctly (?), it looks like Fury Cruise will out-damage Rage Torps against signatures of 384m or smaller when 2 TPs are used (the cut-off seems to be 528m without TPs). Coupled with much greater range, those cut-offs seem too high and perhaps a smaller damage bonus is in order?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2890540#post2890540
Applied Creations is recruiting. Mystic Volundar says, "It could be you! " |
SongSinger
BlitzStrike
1
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:38:00 -
[78] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:SongSinger wrote:Suppose that Tempest is moving at a speed of 120 m / s and has a signature 360 meters. Raven shoots him with cruise missiles (fury) (velocity _ of explosion 91 m / s, the radius of of explosion 403 meters), all skills 5,, implants: +5% velocity blast, 5% explosion radius) even at such a low speed of Tempest, damage reduction would be about 32% correct me if I'm wrong Now stop using Fury and use the correct ammo. Full damage. ok using faction a missile with velocity-á of explosion 108.675 m / c, will decrease damage taken by 10% |
Mister Vee
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
33
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:41:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jack bubu wrote:Mister Vee wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mister Vee wrote:if firewall doesn't get nerfed to **** you may aswell give them infinite volley damage, because in no relevant fight will they ever hit anything How come this didn't apply to Drakes or Tengus? Honest question. not sure what you mean, firewall effectively killed all missile doctrines in large scale 0.0 warfare my first post was a little snarky and I'm all for 'personal skill' making a difference, but in its current form a few dedicated smartbombing ships can nullify an entire fleets worth of damage. even more so from ships that don't move very fast (like ravens) Im not sure if smartbombs will work at all due to insane missile speed (10k/s) and server ticks of 1 sec. meaning that cruise will probably have past the SB radius before the server tics and they wont be effected at all, theoretically the smartbomb /should/ kill the cruise, but i want to test it first.
true - but that doesn't make the current state of smartbombs vs missiles any less imbalanced |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
633
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:41:00 -
[80] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Gypsio III wrote:SongSinger wrote:Suppose that Tempest is moving at a speed of 120 m / s and has a signature 360 meters. Raven shoots him with cruise missiles (fury) (velocity _ of explosion 91 m / s, the radius of of explosion 403 meters), all skills 5,, implants: +5% velocity blast, 5% explosion radius) even at such a low speed of Tempest, damage reduction would be about 32% correct me if I'm wrong Now stop using Fury and use the correct ammo. Full damage. I thought fury's were ment to be the anti bs ammo type?
Generally, the role of Fury and Rage is to hit stuff one class bigger, or stuff of the same size that's appropriately tackled. But there's such a large disparity of speeds and sigs among BS that it shouldn't be assumed that Fury cruise is able to hit all BS for full damage. The Tempest is an attack BS, it's supposed to be fast and lean and have a chance of avoiding some damage, so it's a bad example. I haven't checked the numbers yet but I suspect that Fury use will be viable against the fatter, slower combat BS. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
564
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:43:00 -
[81] - Quote
So, as a few of you have mentioned, damage application is one of the biggest obstacles for missiles. I completely agree, but I don't want to solve this problem through Cruise Missiles as a system. I have other ideas for dealing with it, unfortunately they will likely not make it in for Odyssey. |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
836
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:45:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Rise: Any comments at least on whether you have Torpedo changes coming too? Or is this Cruise Missiles only? Mynnna for CSM 8 |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
398
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:So, as a few of you have mentioned, damage application is one of the biggest obstacles for missiles. I completely agree, but I don't want to solve this problem through Cruise Missiles as a system. I have other ideas for dealing with it, unfortunately they will likely not make it in for Odyssey.
what are these idea's? I know they wont make it, but would be nice to see where this might end up one day OMG when can i get a pic here
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Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
1
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:46:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:So, as a few of you have mentioned, damage application is one of the biggest obstacles for missiles. I completely agree, but I don't want to solve this problem through Cruise Missiles as a system. I have other ideas for dealing with it, unfortunately they will likely not make it in for Odyssey. Why dont you just make target painters viable, instead of "other ideas" ? |
MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
171
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:48:00 -
[85] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Righty, one by one:
5% increased rate of fire for all Cruise Missile Launchers 25% increase in base damage for all Cruise Missiles
Way more than I expected, tbh. Only problem I see: Rof means a rof bonused ship will go through cargo even faster and missiles are pretty large to carry around in the first place. Perhaps consider reducing the size of missiles?
Figure that has to be a key comment, with the Rate of Fire increasing its got to be a must to reduce the size, as well as the mineral requirements for building them. It shouldnt become more expensive (albeit slightly) to kill a target as a result of these changes, it should remain identical. |
Sigras
Conglomo
400
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:48:00 -
[86] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey sorry for the signature radius typo. It was meant to be explosion radius. Always getting my radii confused!
It is indeed an increase, which means that more of the damage will be mitigated by size. This will of course be more than offset by the increase in base damage, but the idea is that the performance increase will be more substantial for larger targets. so all these changes mean is a cruise missle will hit a bs harder if it is sitting still. but if it moves the ages old problem that was created during the speed nerf still remains, they cant hit anything that is smaller than a bs or moving. awesome buff for mission runners by my math, this means each missile will do 291 damage rather than 253 and thats worst case scenario; an AB tempest with no sig increase from a shield tank and no speed decrease from an armor tank.
seriously though, who runs an AB on a battleship?
TL;DR unless the battleship is LOLz afterburning and not MWDing your cruise missiles will do full damage. |
SongSinger
BlitzStrike
1
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:So, as a few of you have mentioned, damage application is one of the biggest obstacles for missiles. I completely agree, but I don't want to solve this problem through Cruise Missiles as a system. I have other ideas for dealing with it, unfortunately they will likely not make it in for Odyssey. i'm sad is it possible to increase the velocity of explosion by 5%? |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
88
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:49:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:So, as a few of you have mentioned, damage application is one of the biggest obstacles for missiles. I completely agree, but I don't want to solve this problem through Cruise Missiles as a system. I have other ideas for dealing with it, unfortunately they will likely not make it in for Odyssey.
Tell me TD's are going to make it into odyssey its been a year since last fanfest when it was supposed to make it into summer expansion you're starting to take the **** 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
836
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:53:00 -
[89] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey sorry for the signature radius typo. It was meant to be explosion radius. Always getting my radii confused!
It is indeed an increase, which means that more of the damage will be mitigated by size. This will of course be more than offset by the increase in base damage, but the idea is that the performance increase will be more substantial for larger targets. so all these changes mean is a cruise missle will hit a bs harder if it is sitting still. but if it moves the ages old problem that was created during the speed nerf still remains, they cant hit anything that is smaller than a bs or moving. awesome buff for mission runners by my math, this means each missile will do 291 damage rather than 253 and thats worst case scenario; an AB tempest with no sig increase from a shield tank and no speed decrease from an armor tank. seriously though, who runs an AB on a battleship? TL;DR unless the battleship is LOLz afterburning and not MWDing your cruise missiles will do full damage.
Remember that the Tempest has a particularly low sig radius and is fairly fast. Any of the soon-to-be Combat BS will take more damage. Mynnna for CSM 8 |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
398
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Posted - 2013.04.16 15:55:00 -
[90] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey sorry for the signature radius typo. It was meant to be explosion radius. Always getting my radii confused!
It is indeed an increase, which means that more of the damage will be mitigated by size. This will of course be more than offset by the increase in base damage, but the idea is that the performance increase will be more substantial for larger targets. so all these changes mean is a cruise missle will hit a bs harder if it is sitting still. but if it moves the ages old problem that was created during the speed nerf still remains, they cant hit anything that is smaller than a bs or moving. awesome buff for mission runners by my math, this means each missile will do 291 damage rather than 253 and thats worst case scenario; an AB tempest with no sig increase from a shield tank and no speed decrease from an armor tank. seriously though, who runs an AB on a battleship? TL;DR unless the battleship is LOLz afterburning and not MWDing your cruise missiles will do full damage.
not sure what missiles you using for these numbers. but cn missiles have a base of 345, fury 420, precision 300. 291 is less than full damage. granted its been a good year since I sat in or even looked at a raven with out thinking its gonna die fast, so please go slowly for me. OMG when can i get a pic here
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