Well here is my feed back coupled with some math so i hope you enjoy:

Old phoon, no implants, no heat, no rigs, Lv5 skills, T2 launchers, CN cruise.

DPS: 384

Now lets look at damage application. All ships shown have level 5 skills, are unfit except for an MWD. No other effects

Merlin: 22 DPS
Thrasher: 43 DPS
Thorax: 78 DPS
Brutix: 236 DPS
Drake: 307 DPS
Tempest: 343 DPS (Still not applying full damage to an MWD BS) Please explain to me why the proposed changes include a 10% decrease to explosion velocity? Cruise missile already cannot apply full DPS to an MWD BS.

Now that we have that established, lets look at the drake. Again with 2BCS HML II launchers, CN scourge no implants, no rigs, no drugs shoot at the same targets:

Drake HML DPS: 341

Merlin: 69
Thrasher: 118
Thorax: 186 (Cruiser sized weapon applying barely half of on paper DPS)
Brutix: 341
Drake: 341
Tempest: 341

I simply cannot understand what CCP is doing with missiles. Right now the best missile ships in the game are the 6 launcher RLM tengu, and the RLM cerberus / RLM Caracal. They both apply more damage to cruiser and smaller ships, while having comparable damage to BC / BS than HML currently have (after the nerf). Your current proposed cruise changes will help the PvE environment. However in the PvP environment, the current iteration of cruise missiles are in fact superior to the proposed- simply because they don't have to deal with that 10% decrease in explosion velocity.

Please look at the simple maths I am providing. It doesn't matter how much of a damage bonus you give missiles, if you are not willing to look at the application of the damage. Cruise / torps / HML / HAM can already do very little in the PvP environment because these weapon systems apply so little damage, unless the target is hard tackled. However hard tackling a target is difficult when you are flying small gang / kiting / solo. So other than using 2/3 ships, how is a pilot going to apply any meaningful damage to targets?

For those of you that are not as versed in missile damage, there are two deciding factors that determine missile damage:

Explosion radius vs target radius
Explosion velocity vs target velocity

Both of these components are not equal. Explosion radius has a much more marginal effect on missile damage, than a comparable decrease in explosion velocity / target velocity. Because of the way missile damage is calculated and coded into EvE- giving a missile that already struggles to apply damage a HUGE 10% explosion velocity decrease, is going to turn any 'dps buff' into a joke when observed in the PvP area.

Because the facts of the matter are this: Most ships carry an MWD. And while they do increase signature, this is not nearly enough to offset the fact that the same increase seen in the ship speed when compared to missile explosion velocity- throws damage application out the window. As I have stated before: If you increase the target velocity and the target signature radius by the same margin, target speed and explosion velocity play a much much larger role in deciding applied DPS to target than the same increase in explosion radius / target radius.

So CCP please clarify this for me.

1. Are you planning on adding addition modules to the game that will allow a pod pilot to choose to decrease explosion radius / increase explosion velocity apart from rigs?

2. Are you currently happy with RLM missiles having superior damage application when compared to HAM's / HMLs against cruisers?

3. What are your thoughts on the difficulty faced by missile uses when attempting to apply full 'on paper' DPS to PvP ships with out using hard tackle? Please provide an answer that is relevant to solo / small gang or kiting play styles. (Not all of us have friends in rapiers, huginns, arazus that fly around with us on call.)

Thank you for your time, and I await your response.

The whole issue is created by the lack of dmg-application modules for missiles. Imagine turrets without tracking enhancers and you would face the same issues (not to such a degree, but still...).

CCP Rise has said he will adress this, so I'm going to be a little patient.

Old phoon, no implants, no heat, no rigs, Lv5 skills, T2 launchers, CN cruise.

DPS: 384

Now lets look at damage application. All ships shown have level 5 skills, are unfit except for an MWD. No other effects
...
Now that we have that established, lets look at the drake. Again with 2BCS HML II launchers, CN scourge no implants, no rigs, no drugs shoot at the same targets:

Drake HML DPS: 341
...
Thank you for your time, and I await your response.

The whole issue is created by the lack of dmg-application modules for missiles. Imagine turrets without tracking enhancers and you would face the same issues (not to such a degree, but still...).

CCP Rise has said he will adress this, so I'm going to be a little patient.

This is an utterly bullshit comparison.

-Liang

Dont get your hopes up, if you look at the formula for missiles dmg it doesnt matter if you missiles goes faster or your enemy goes slower. The only thing thats matter is the radio of explosion velocity and ship speed. Its the same for explosion radius and ship signature. Currently we can use TP and webifier. TP increase signature about 30% [even more with skills] and web reduce speed by 60%.

The new modules have to be at least as good as a TP otherwise it wont work and thats something i cant image, because currenty Tracking Computer increase your Trackling only about 15 % (30% with script). Its something i would call: good idea but it wont work.

So why bother putting the BCUs on the Drake if you aren't trying to compare actual damage? And if you're not trying to compare actual damage... why not? Is that not what actually matters? :)

-Liang

I bolded the part that is wrong. A ship moving slower has a lower velocity, allowing your missiles to apply more damage. This is true 100% of the time. TP's are only good on bonused hulls. Bellicose / vigil does it best imo Again, this still doesn't answer my questions or fix the current problems facing missile ships.

Im comparing damage application based on realistic low slot fittings for ships. Both ships have 2 BCS

Even without Bonus TP's can increase your DMG, its a good choice to get at least 5%-20% more dmg on NPC's. Dunno about TP's in PvP, never used them in PvP except on a stealth bomber.

Did you use 5 launchers and current missiles by chance? Because the Raven's fully capable of applying 840 DPS to a Drake at 200km. The Phoon shouldn't be too far behind that, even if you account for its armor tank.

-Liang

You PVP fit your Ravens with 2 BCUs? Well, I think I found the ******* problem.

-Liang

This is for PvP discussion only. I really don't care that much about PvE. TP's are pretty much useless unless they are on bonused hulls anyway.

What does signature resolution mean?

Well here is my feed back coupled with some math so i hope you enjoy:

Old phoon, no implants, no heat, no rigs, Lv5 skills, T2 launchers, CN cruise.

DPS: 384

Now lets look at damage application. All ships shown have level 5 skills, are unfit except for an MWD. No other effects

Merlin: 22 DPS
Thrasher: 43 DPS
Thorax: 78 DPS
Brutix: 236 DPS
Drake: 307 DPS
Tempest: 343 DPS (Still not applying full damage to an MWD BS) Please explain to me why the proposed changes include a 10% decrease to explosion velocity? Cruise missile already cannot apply full DPS to an MWD BS.

Because the facts of the matter are this: Most ships carry an MWD. And while they do increase signature, this is not nearly enough to offset the fact that the same increase seen in the ship speed when compared to missile explosion velocity- throws damage application out the window. As I have stated before: If you increase the target velocity and the target signature radius by the same margin, target speed and explosion velocity play a much much larger role in deciding applied DPS to target than the same increase in explosion radius / target radius.

[quote=Debora Tsung]
Because there is no Pirate-BS who primary use Torps and the Golem has no dmg bonus for torps. Dont compare ships from different classes.

I don't PvP fit ravens in the first place. Phoon could be possible, but any more than 2BCS and the stacking penalty is pretty nasty at that point. Better to place something else in most cases.

Raven, all level 5 skills, 2BCS, T2 launchers, CN scourge cruise missile

On paper: 460 DPS

MWD drake: 368

Raven, all level 5 skills, 2BCS, T2 launchers, Scourge Fury Cruise

On paper: 560 DPS

MWD drake: 232 DPS

That is with the old raven and old missiles. But you get the point. Even with the 30% damage increase (assuming that you could actually apply that with the 10% decrease in explosion velocity- CN cruise raven is only doing 368 X 30% = 478 DPS (which is not all going to be applied anyway thanks to the decreased explo velocity.)

Your numbers are crazy, or if they are real require so much low slot / rig space that its not viable for any normal PvP situation- and certainly not for solo / small gang.

TP's are pretty much useless unless they are on bonused hulls anyway.

You PVP fit your Ravens with 2 BCUs? Well, I think I found the ******* problem.

-Liang

Signature resolution is a weapon's "anchor point" for signature radius calculations. When numbers on the weapon rely on the target's signature radius (such as tracking), then when the target's signature radius is equal to the weapon's signature resolution, the number is the listed value. For instance, a large turret has a signature resolution of 400m. If it fires at a target with a 400m signature radius, it gets 100% of the listed tracking value. If it fires at a target with a 2000m signature radius, it gets 500% of listed tracking.

I don't think missiles use signature resolution.

Interesting. I will have to think about it some - might be actually good enough to consider switching from using Tengus to Navy Ravens with cruise missiles.

Currently its not worth it as the raw damage difference is so small its entirely negated by the limited effectivity of cruise missiles against smaller than BC size NPC's. But with the RoF increase, Alpha increase and increased missile speed ... will have to test it how much does the increased missile exp radius affect cruise missile effectivity in PvE against cruiser and frigate size rats.