Another simulation: 20 turret bs vs 20 raven cruise bs.
Turrett fleet will wreck 1 raven and make the whole stuff 19vs20 before the ravens even get their first volley done.
Really don-¦t see the fix here.
Okay carebears will be happy with it. But almost useless for pvp.

FYI there is one idea to make sniper raven possible:
Reduce the rof to 25%
Boost the DPH to 400%,
And reduce the ability to damage cruiser sized ships if needed,

The overall DPS can be decreased.

That make raven a good alpha sniper with delayed damage + still useless to target below BC
Thus it won't take the role of current alphaships or sniper ships)

If you need a Sci-fi explanation: Cruise missiles are much greater in size regarding to any other BS sized bullets, which contains a great amount of fillings specifically designed for tactical bombardment.

Just because it's not a giant fleet ship doesn't mean that it won't be useful in PVP. If you can't think of a use for 750 DPS at any range you can lock... well I just don't know what to tell you honestly. But if you really want someone to run your simulation, feel free to tell me the configuration parameters. It'd hardly be the first time and I probably still have my old fleet sim software laying around.

-Liang

Raven could be useful in PVP. But not with the current mechanics to probing where you get a warp in within 5 sec.

But how? Even carriers can lock your primary while your missiles still flying.

Give me example, where is Raven with his EFT dps is usefull in pvp? And reason, why Raven and not a other BS?

Alpha sniper with such damage can be too dangerous at close range. Almost instant huge volley.
With this change you need to change full mechanics of missiles.
Do a fast missiles with slow acceleration. By that i mean, low speed start missiles with slow acceleration to high speed.
So it will be about 5-10 second at close range and 10-15 at long range delay.

Raven could be useful in PVP. But not with the current mechanics to probing where you get a warp in within 5 sec.

Sure, and if you're trying to use the Raven against fleets that are big enough to have a dedicated covops traveling with them.... well, then maybe you shouldn't use a Raven. That doesn't make it not useful. And hell - the Raven's fully capable of dropping out 900 DPS up close if someone were to warp their fleet on top of them.

-Liang

Because without on grid warping/probing they outdamage EVERYTHING else at extreme ranges.

Well, it's 750 DPS at whatever ranges you can lock. Given that the Vindicator negative lock range trick doesn't work anymore... that seems pretty useful. The ability to attack a POS from 200km seems pretty useful. The ability to project damage in a huge sphere around static assets (like triage carriers) seems pretty useful. The ability to tackle someone on a static asset (like a high sec gate) and pummel them from range seems pretty useful.

But hey, maybe you're totally right and there's another BS that puts out 750 DPS at absurd ranges.

-Liang

Don't really have to.

Yes the high alpha cruise missile can do dangerous "DPH" at close range, but no one would guarantee that this dangerious DPH can beat a fleet with high close range DPS.

All because anyway no one mentioned how the DPS of high alhpa cruse will be. If the DPS is very low, the high alpha won't give you any advantage in close range fight.


There are generally ways to solve a problem, dont have to stick on the difficult one and count it as the only solution

Sure, and if you're trying to use the Raven against fleets that are big enough to have a dedicated covops traveling with them.... well, then maybe you shouldn't use a Raven. That doesn't make it not useful. And hell - the Raven's fully capable of dropping out 900 DPS up close if someone were to warp their fleet on top of them.

-Liang

Volley damage can be better than dps. All we can remember arty-abaddons. Huge tank safes from enemy, and huge volley, can oneshots enemy ships.

A NEW Cruise Missile specifically designed for PVP.
They should still be only shooting large ships, but have much much more velocity and perhaps not as much DPS.

To be honest, how many major alliance still using arty-abandons?

Does arty-abandon fleet has a notable advantage to fight a pulse abandon fleet?
How about fighting a rokh fleet or a maelstrom fleet with the "arty-abandon fleet"?

Ironically this example is a rather good explanation that why DPH without the support of fair DPS could be bad, or at least not that good as you expected, and alpha cruise missile could be a well-balanced solution, and the DPH does not rule all.

If this is basically what you want to say, the argument has ended :)

How often did you see any Raven do this? POS bashing? Bombers can do better with lower risks. Ravens can't support carrier. Tornado do a better surpise damage on gate fights. They can't tacle you, your guy tacle them. Why do i need Raven with EFT dps and delayed damage, when our tackler guys takes damage right now? I don't know.

You don't need covops to scan ravens.
Raven can fully capable of dropping 900dps only in EFT.

Give me example, where is Raven with his EFT dps is usefull in pvp? And reason, why Raven and not a other BS?

But looks like I've invented a case for new Ravens.
The target should be dangerous in 150+ km range, un-able to use smartbombs, should be big enough and slow like...
SLOWCAT!
Nevertheless, you need to tackle them somehow.

And then you are probed out and bubbled before your missiles have even reached its target....

And?

And?

Alright, I'll say it for you:
And then, your fate is in hands of your FC. If he's stupid enough to locate your blob in the line of alignment of those slowcats - you're doomed. If he called for doctrine with MJD - you can disperse your blob any moment and thus be immune to insta-probing.
What other means do you have to counter slowcats, unless you want to engage in capitals? Well, railguns - but they indeed are less damaging than missiles in this case.

You should try and look on this from a broader perspective. It's not all about blobs and fleets. There's something called small gang warfare. Not sure if you are familiar with it. It's quite fun, you should try it sometime.

You know, I must not know as much about Eve as I thought I did. The best range fit I have for a bomber in my EFT only puts out ~370 DPS at 130km. I'm not seeing how to get 750 DPS at 249km, especially with a reasonable tank. Can you help me with my fit please?

I'm also extremely surprised by the assertion that Ravens can't support a carrier. I felt like I could sure have used some Raven support when that Falcon kept decloaking 70-120km from my fleet and we couldn't reliably project damage out that far. I also feel like we might have gotten that Bhaalgorn kill if we'd had better damage projection from inside the RR sphere of the carrier.

And finally, I'm somewhat baffled by the argument that I was looking for surprise damage in a gate fight. What I was actually doing was looking for a way to apply 700+ DPS from outside of anyone's effective engagement range - and potentially from outside the engagement range of the sentries. I've always felt that the 400 DPS of a sniper nado felt kinda weak when plinking away at Rokhs and Abaddons, but maybe you have better luck than I do. :)

Here, obviously you know more about Eve than I do. Can you help me out with my math? By my reasoning we should be seeing 641 DPS * 1.316 + 158 = 1001 raw DPS. What damage mitigation percentage should I assume? Maybe we should assume a pulse Apoc at 50km will have 80% damage mitigation from the missiles and 100% from the drones?

Thanks for all the help in correcting my perception of Eve!

-Liang

TZeer, I'm confused. What's warping in now? The tackled slow cats or a close range brawler fleet?

-Liang

Fair enough, now it's your turn to suggest a good role for cruise Raven - from a broad perspective of small gangs.