I'm saying that the power level on these was devastatingly bad before, to the point that they were almost never used. It's very normal for e-war focused ships in EVE to be extremely dominant in certain situations while being abysmal in others. I think these look like they are threading the line fairly well.

My point about them being too strong to engage 1v1 is that at this scale you have a lot of control over your engagements and that leaves some room for them to be powerful considering that as you scale up they quickly get weaker.

If it turns out that people aren't able to react for some reason and low sec is just swarms of solo Keres pilots we would definitely make some changes, but I don't think that will be the case.

I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.

I'm not talking about 1v1's /o\

Ewar ships have always been great for small gangs, overpowered even.

These changes just make it a LOT worse and i don't think it a good change because of that.

I won't give you the same-old "The Keres is a Gallente ship!! Drones!! rabble rabble," but I will say that the Keres builds from the Maulus, which has a nice amount of drones, and the Keres should at least mimic this. Even buffing the drones to two would keep some of the T1 feel. And, for the record, it does feel odd that the Sentinel has the most drones of this group.

When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

The problem here is that if you run into a group that has a couple of these new eaf's, they will be able to stay outside your range while completly locking you down.
The biggest issue here is that your giving a massive boost to a ship so small and cheap that we will end up seeing tons of them around. And why in gods name would you give them the range boost?? Lets face it, EW in eve is to powerfull as it is. We really dont need to make this game less fun for the majority of the players.

Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.

I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.

The Vengeance builds from the Punisher, but it's not exactly a very strong laser ship, and it certainly doesn't have the same speed. T2 ships are more specialized which often means losing something that the t1 variant had.

I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.

If your EAF is busy trying to evade your attack frigate, then it's not hammering your fleet with EWAR.

Frigate warping fast work both ways. An interceptor can easily warp out/warp in to ennemy EAF to kill them by surprise.

...but they will probably suffer from the same problems that ships like the dragoon already do - no one will want to fight you. When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.

Are you serious?

You really cant stay within 150km of an enemy ship while avoiding a tackler?

Or lets say you do get close to one of them. Hyena double webs you, and their anti-tackle zealot or w/e 2 shots you. It then goes back to webbing w/e it wants

Hey guys

Thanks for the feedback.

So far I'm noticing two major threads

wtf are you thinking these are insanely strong (especially in FW frig 1v1 type environments)

wtf why didn't you reduce the sig or increase the hp/speed to make them more survivable

This seems pretty okay I think. I agree that some of them will make really OP 1v1 ships, but they will probably suffer from the same problems that ships like the dragoon already do - no one will want to fight you. When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.

I'll keep watching the discussion and will also pay really close attention to their use after release and adjust as needed.

Hopefully they're just really fun

This is great reasoning, if we were talking about AFs. Since we're talking about EAFs, which strongly follow their T1 flavors, and in many respects are just flat-out better than their T1 counterparts in every measurable metric, the Keres should retain more of its T1 flavor. I mean hell, the Sentinel gains bonuses to neut range/amount AND gets more drones than a Crucifier.

Your fast frigate is probably

1) Not that much faster, if it is even as fast
2) Gets neuted out at 35k/webbed at 50k/jammed at 150k/damped to 500m lock range/scrammed at 25k

Sure, you can swarm an EAF with frigates, but if the counter to a ship is to bring 4 or 5 ships, thats pretty damn broken.

Eafs basically act as anti-tackle with their ewar, so sending tackle after them is not the best idea in the world

Also people seem to not be considering the effects the warp changes will have

Those changes really REALLY need to be considered when balancing frigates now.

It seems to me like those of you that are most concerned are players who really dislike ewar as a system, and therefor dislike these ships. I'm not sure anything but keeping these nerfed into the ground is going to sound good to you, and I understand that as a player who struggled with ewar a lot.

I don't feel convinced that they will be so good they will blot out the sun and no one will be able to have a fight, and I've said if that becomes a big issue we will make tweaks.

I also don't think the tackling ranges are a problem. Killing support has gotten substantially easier over the last couple years and tackling has gotten harder as a result. I think having some support ships around that are difficult to fly well, have a different style than recons but provide some similar functions seems really positive for gangs of many sizes.

One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with.

I'll make sure we talk about this internally some before they ship and if others feel concerned we can tune the ewar or lock ranges down a bit.

It seems to me like those of you that are most concerned are players who really dislike ewar as a system, and therefor dislike these ships. I'm not sure anything but keeping these nerfed into the ground is going to sound good to you, and I understand that as a player who struggled with ewar a lot.

I don't feel convinced that they will be so good they will blot out the sun and no one will be able to have a fight, and I've said if that becomes a big issue we will make tweaks.

I also don't think the tackling ranges are a problem. Killing support has gotten substantially easier over the last couple years and tackling has gotten harder as a result. I think having some support ships around that are difficult to fly well, have a different style than recons but provide some similar functions seems really positive for gangs of many sizes.

One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with.

I'll make sure we talk about this internally some before they ship and if others feel concerned we can tune the ewar or lock ranges down a bit.

EAFs only have a major warp speed advantage over cruiser hulls now...and the cruiser solution to the EAF problem is the same as it always was: dump a flight of lights on them and watch them explode.

...One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with...

EAF's warp faster than normal frigates, you will literally only have a couple of seconds warning from them showing up on scan until they land on grid.

Also a flight of lights? Are we even playing the same game here?

Frigates warp at 6 AU/s. New EAFs (as with AFs and bombers) are 6.75. Destroyers 5.25 up from 3.

The large jump is between dessies and cruisers


With regards to drones: EAFs are really bad at dealing with drones. Also, any medium weapon that gets in range will kill an EAF in seconds (admittedly, the longer ranged EAFs will probably not be in range very often)