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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1496
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:26:00 -
[331] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Just.. In general.. Metrics are not good for anything but slight reference. What should they use instead? Gut instinct? Personal preferences? Come on man. Metrics are useful. Stop knee-jerking just because your playstyle is being threatened.
How about expirience and knowledge?
If you look at metrics you can draw the conclusion that the increased import of iron roofs to iceland in the second world war caused an increase in out of marriage pregnancy.
but if you know stuff its far more likely that it was the presence of US soldiers here that caused it.
Metrics alone are not very useful. Stop being bad. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
628
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:39:00 -
[332] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The range on that Kitsune is scary too. 117 km optimal range on jammers (?) Wow.
A bit over the top in my personal opinion to be honest. In particular for a frigate, which will be able to almost always dictate range. Will be incredibly hard to counter that thing. There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly |
Denuo Secus
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:50:00 -
[333] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:...and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others. ....
Noo please don't do this. If I remember correct, it was you or Fozzie stating Amarr and Minmatar ewar ships are in a hybrid role in terms or ewar and combat. I really like this design. It makes them much more viable for soloing compared to the more role focused Caldari and Gallente ewar ships. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5069
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:12:00 -
[334] - Quote
So: the answer to ewar. What if the different types of ewar also malused the ship using the ewar? For instance, ECM trims shield resists; target painting also hit the painter with sig bloom; tracking disruptors malused armor resists (though these things need a buff, sooo...); sensor damps malused sensor resolution.
In this way, there's a trade-off-- instead of damping something to hell and then lolling, you've got a bit of a trade-off.
Thoughts? Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:18:00 -
[335] - Quote
I think that the word you are looking for is 'penalty'. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1305
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:43:00 -
[336] - Quote
Looking foward to what CCP's response will be when we start seeing no one flying BS's or cruisers anymore because a Keres can warp in and scram (not point) while at the same time sensor damp the target to the point that the target can't even get a lock.
These will be even more powerful than an interceptor, at least in low sec.
Only place that will be safe to PvE rat will be high sec and the deep safe null sec enclaves, many jumps from anywhere. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
206
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 22:05:00 -
[337] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:My stance is definitely not "it's okay if this destroys the meta because we can change it after", it's that I don't think it will mess up the meta but if it did somehow I would be here to fix it.
I talked with Fozzie a bit and we may be up for making some small changes to some of the range bonuses and maybe to their mass to make them a bit easier to catch.
Still going to wait a little longer before committing to any changes.
ps - this is a great way to start a post "Dear ******* christ on a stick." =D I'll preface my comments that I fly a Maulus a lot. I flew it a lot before the tech I frig rebalance as well. I love ewar. Well, except for ecm, which leaves a target no options. People can overcome my Maulus. For instance one of the things they can do is shoot fof missiles (unfortunately a turret ship is ****** against ecm, damps, and TDs, if missile boats could be rendered useless by ecm and damps we'd have the ecm and damp mechanics changed, but that is another gripe.
Basically all your need to do with these ships is make them slightly better ew frigates, and not mini recons. They don't need much else than the tech II resists, a very little more hp, a slight bit less mobility in exchange for some added bonuses. Why do you change the griffin/kitsune frigate ecm strength bonus from 15 to 20???? On these ships just leave the tech I frig bonuses the same for each. Then add one (or maybe two weak) more bonus. That is all these ships need.
Kitsune - tech I griffin bonuses, then a 15% optimal (not 25% ffs) and the 5% cap bonuses. The ship is an improved griffin. Some slightly better range, better resists, better cap, an extra high slot (delete the drone on this and the griffin, one drone is not worth bothering with). So it is basically a very slightly more tanky better ranged (but not ridiculously) ew frig.
Sentinel - tech I crucifier bonuses. then add +50% range on neuts, and a 5% cap bonus. The ship is an improved Crucifier. The neuts and drones can be used defensively. The small (non strength bonused) neuts and dronage won't overpower larger turret ships and won't make this a solo beast. It will still be fearsome for other frigs, especially when you introduce missile TDs. Mids could be one prop mod, one tackle mod, missile TD, turret TD (or 2 TDs of the same type).
Keres - tech I bonuses of the Maulus. then add maybe 15% warp disruptor range (or 5 or 10% damp effectiveness percentage), 5% reduction in disruptor cap use (or if went with damp effectiveness bonus then add some bonus to drone hp or gun tracking). Either it will have a recon tackle range and cap bonus, although toned down from your proposal, or it will have some added damp effectiveness and a weapon bonus that is a defensive not an offensive one. In either case, if you are going to give the sentinel the same dronage of it's tech I counterpart you should give this ship it's same dronage. If the tackle range bonus options make you worry about the dronage (although why the debilitating ewar on the Sentinel with it's full dronage doesn't I don't know) then trim it to 15/30. ONE LIGHT DRONE IS A JOKE AND IS NOT WORTH THE FINGER MOTION EFFORT TO ACTIVATE ON THIS SHIP. My preference would be the 5-10% damp effectiveness and 10% drone hp as EAF bonuses. Again it makes it a fearsome ship to other frigs but not a solo threat to larger ships.
Hyena - This ship deserves it's 5th mid back and take away the extra low. Make it like the Kitsune, 3h, 5m, 2l. Keep the tech I Vigil bonuses. Make the web bonus 40% (not 50% range) and maybe a 5% cap bonus instead of the 3% sig? Anyway 4 mids on a ship where it is bonused for 2 midslot modules is stupid. So the 5th mid helps it remain viable.
edit - and of these ships the Sentinel still looks the best so if you are going to take a drones away take one from it. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
488
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 22:40:00 -
[338] - Quote
hyena too good , why does it get so much boost , it is way faster than the kitsune and smaller too,btw why it gets such a huge lock range? it makes no sense ,it gets too much boost-->op
it was the smallest one still it gets the hugest sig reduction it was the fastest one still it gets the hugest speed improvement it had the lowest lock range (yeah it is a close range ship so who cares) then it gets the hugest improvement why? |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1373
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 00:45:00 -
[339] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:hyena too good , why does it get so much boost , it is way faster than the kitsune and smaller too,btw why it gets such a huge lock range? it makes no sense ,it gets too much boost-->op
it was the smallest one still it gets the hugest sig reduction it was the fastest one still it gets the hugest speed improvement it had the lowest lock range (yeah it is a close range ship so who cares) then it gets the hugest improvement why?
We missed you. |
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears. Nocturnal Legion
179
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 01:08:00 -
[340] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:hyena too good , why does it get so much boost , it is way faster than the kitsune and smaller too,btw why it gets such a huge lock range? it makes no sense ,it gets too much boost-->op
it was the smallest one still it gets the hugest sig reduction it was the fastest one still it gets the hugest speed improvement it had the lowest lock range (yeah it is a close range ship so who cares) then it gets the hugest improvement why? We missed you. We did |
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Major Killz
La Fraternite
251
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 01:10:00 -
[341] - Quote
I'm for removing the Sentinels drones ALL TOGETHER. in fact there electronic warfare ships should be focused ONLY on support and DO NO DAMAGE AT ALL. NO drones and NO turret or Missile hardpoints.
F*cking electronic warfare is becoming a pandemic = ) - Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos - Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1373
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 01:25:00 -
[342] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:I'm for removing the Sentinels drones ALL TOGETHER. in fact there electronic warfare ships should be focused ONLY on support and DO NO DAMAGE AT ALL. NO drones and NO turret or Missile hardpoints.
F*cking electronic warfare is becoming a pandemic = )
Would you move high slots around or just have..... 2-3 high slots for the hyena, keres, kitsune? |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
251
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 02:59:00 -
[343] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Would you move high slots around or just have..... 2-3 high slots for the hyena, keres, kitsune?
Rearranging slots would in fact benefit these ships. For example leaving all electronic attack ships with 1 - 2 high slots. Moving 1 or 2 high slots to mid or low. Which would help overall velocity or tank.
You know, slot rearrangement is clearly the safest way to improve or NERF a ship or class of ship. Truly empowering the players by leaving innovation to THEM and BOOSTING the level customization (adding to the sandbox). Instead of relying on some poorly run team with terrible ideas v0v
Does a Sentinel need more tank? Give it one more low or mid slot and remove 1 high slot. Do you want to NERF the Drake? Remove 2 low or 2 high slots.
Is there a need to mess around with bonuses, ship velocity, shield or armor amount, and agility? No! Just allow the players to use another module to ADJUST what they DO NOT LIKE. - Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos - Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1610
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 04:11:00 -
[344] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote: And if drones are the main weapon system, then the Sentinel needs a slot removed like the other drone boats.
This "policy" only affects Gallente hulls. (I think it affects drone damage bonused ships) |
Chunky Milk
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 04:12:00 -
[345] - Quote
rise m8er, how many times have you seen small gang bros like us get absolutely rekt by recons. Now you want to put a rapier into a 40-60mil package, please no not after the t1 logi buff...
a 10mn hyena can sig tank a whole gang with literally 1 scythe repping it, please repent your sins for wrecking solo with the local rep bonus. |
Sleepy Buddha
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 05:45:00 -
[346] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't mind the ewar bonuses these ships have I disagree however with the massive control bonuses they are getting, neuts, points and webs at really long ranges. It basically lets you do no risk pvp where you just lock down your opponent and slowly kill him. I just really think this will have a very negative effect on the enjoyability of small scale fighting in this game. Also do i really need to point out why ECM at 150 km is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea? Are our memories really that bad? Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.
I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..
I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale. I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down. Your fast frigate is double webbed at 26 km, now what?
I am still in noob time of my pvp evolution but with about 40 solo kills I must say, if I will see these on scan, I will probably not fight, because this things can spoil my day no matter how hard I try ;) |
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 06:15:00 -
[347] - Quote
PLS CCP,
What is the status about tracking disruptors and missile ?
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1505
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 08:19:00 -
[348] - Quote
Sleepy Buddha wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't mind the ewar bonuses these ships have I disagree however with the massive control bonuses they are getting, neuts, points and webs at really long ranges. It basically lets you do no risk pvp where you just lock down your opponent and slowly kill him. I just really think this will have a very negative effect on the enjoyability of small scale fighting in this game. Also do i really need to point out why ECM at 150 km is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea? Are our memories really that bad? Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.
I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..
I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale. I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down. Your fast frigate is double webbed at 26 km, now what? I am still in noob time of my pvp evolution but with about 40 solo kills I must say, if I will see these on scan, I will probably not fight, because this things can spoil my day no matter how hard I try ;)
Thing with pvp is that when you fight a guy.. his friends sometimes show up. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
828
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 08:59:00 -
[349] - Quote
Even with all 5s, the KITSUNE still needs 2 more PWG to be properly fitted. consider adding 3 or 4 more PWG to him please. Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-) |
Fetish McButt
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 09:11:00 -
[350] - Quote
This post is made from small/med scale 0.0 fleet warfare pov
First of all to the recons. They are not OP. Nowdays as people have too much isk and characters rapier / arazu is able to point/web close to 100km. quite a many of modern day "standard fits" can deal damage to or close to 100km. Long gone are the days of abaddon fleets and dmg range of 60ish kilometers.
Secondly to the EAF:s. They are fine as they are now presented except the Kitsunes RIDICILIOUS ecm range. It is easy to fit a 200ish km sniping jammer. That is WAY TOO much. Even it is not the fastest or most hp one of the EAF's, it still can jam stuff from 200ish km. Plenty enough time to GTFO if someone starts approaching.
If there is something I really dislike about the new EAF's it is the capability to do the same thing than recons to the same or longer ranges. If you are making the EAF ranges (keres / hyena namely) to the ranges earlier presented here, then the Recons needs to be buffed a bit. Make for example a small bonus to web AMOUNT bonus to accompany the range bonus to huginn/Rapier. Also strenghten the painterbonuses up a bit. More damping power to arazu/lachesis. etc etc. The pilgrim and curse have been the loosers of the Recon bracket quite a time now. They should need to be buffed. |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
566
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 09:58:00 -
[351] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Would you move high slots around or just have..... 2-3 high slots for the hyena, keres, kitsune?
Rearranging slots would in fact benefit these ships. For example leaving all electronic attack ships with 1 - 2 high slots. Moving 1 or 2 high slots to mid or low. Which would help overall velocity or tank. You know, slot rearrangement is clearly the safest way to improve or NERF a ship or class of ship. Truly empowering the players by leaving innovation to THEM and BOOSTING the level customization (adding to the sandbox). Instead of relying on some poorly run team with terrible ideas v0v Does a Sentinel need more tank? Give it one more low or mid slot and remove 1 high slot. Do you want to NERF the Drake? Remove 2 low or 2 high slots. Is there a need to mess around with bonuses, ship velocity, shield or armor amount, and agility? No! Just allow the players to use another module to ADJUST what they DO NOT LIKE.
On the case of the sentinel in specific removing high slots nerf their ewar.. so that is a bit mor complicated than in hte other frigates. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
386
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 11:09:00 -
[352] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Just.. In general.. Metrics are not good for anything but slight reference. What should they use instead? Gut instinct? Personal preferences? Come on man. Metrics are useful. Stop knee-jerking just because your playstyle is being threatened. How about expirience and knowledge? (He has those) If you look at metrics you can draw the conclusion that the increased import of iron roofs to iceland in the second world war caused an increase in out of marriage pregnancy. but if you know stuff its far more likely that it was the presence of US soldiers here that caused it. Metrics alone are not very useful. Stop being bad. The problem don't come from metrics in your example but from the way they are interpreted. Using random metrics to do random links between them is stupid ; using relevant metrics to backup logical assumptions is not.
And here, the facts are that EAF are not used and players always looked them with disdain and considered them useless ; except in this thread now that they are buffed some people come to say they are fine.
IMO, EAF desperately need this kind of buff to be useful or T1 EWAR frig will just be better. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 12:22:00 -
[353] - Quote
Keres and Hyena will make all instalocking camps even more potent while still not making these that useful for other playstyles, not sure if this is a good thing for the game. Maybe some other boost tangent should still be considered? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
406
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 12:49:00 -
[354] - Quote
bringing solo back |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
684
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 13:36:00 -
[355] - Quote
More eaf madness:
Kitsune can be set up to jam outside of the max lock range coded into the game (255km) . Jamming at more than 230km requires it to fit only 2 ecm instead of 3 though. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
880
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 13:49:00 -
[356] - Quote
Much of the problem here is to do with warfare links being hilariously overpowered, rather than EAFs.
You can tweak EAFs to be balanced without links - but they'll be OP with them. Or you can make them balanced with links - but they'll be crap without them. I don't think you'll solve this dilemma without nerfing the hell out of links - for frigates, mobility and range matters, and the ~30% bonuses to speed, sig, tackle range and ewar range and strength offered by links are sinply far too powerful. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
684
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:04:00 -
[357] - Quote
Unlinked it still has 1st jam falloff at 200
Edit: It can also fit a cloak, and can permajam most frigates |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2986
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:26:00 -
[358] - Quote
Alright you win !
Yesterday spent some time talking internally and I think I'm going to make some tweaks to tone them down a little. Not sure exactly what the numbers will be yet and I'm not in the office today but I'll post here letting you know when we work something out.
Thanks for the help |
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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
684
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:32:00 -
[359] - Quote
gf |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:33:00 -
[360] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alright you win !
Yesterday spent some time talking internally and I think I'm going to make some tweaks to tone them down a little. Not sure exactly what the numbers will be yet and I'm not in the office today but I'll post here letting you know when we work something out.
Thanks for the help
PLease.. be gentle.. nerf a bit. Do not hit it with the same bat you have hit the hurricane please. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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