Let me get this straight. The Sentinel gets 4 drones and 2 guns and the Keres gets 1 drone and 2 guns. You made a mistake on one of these ships. How about 5 drones on the Keres?

How about no ? For your info ... Sentinel got 0 guns in fact ... show me single person that will put gun on sentinel. It's only weapons are drones.

first

are you kidding me?
holy crap!

i SO cant wait to get back in my EWAR frigs.

so, if i get the match right, on a 15km web, thats a 75.9km range?

That looks like 2 guns to me. For solo, two guns and a neut would work pretty well. Hell a swarm of them in this configuration would be deadly.

How about no ? For your info ... Sentinel got 0 guns in fact ... show me single person that will put gun on sentinel. It's only weapons are drones.

Dunking any hardeners (including DCU), reppers, EW modules, and propulsion modules is a much much stronger tactic than going in and doing an extra 20 DPS from your unbonused autocannons. Stay at 20km now that you have the neut range to do that as there is absolutely no chance the guy can chase you down and kill you

So the guns are irrelevant on the Sentinel. They would be on the Keres as well then as there is no damage bonus. Why doesn't it get more than one drone?

@CCP Rise how much do i have to pay you to slip fixing the Curse/Pilgrim in with these fine ships (as they are the only Recons that really need help at all - the others function fairly well)

And if drones are the main weapon system, then the Sentinel needs a slot removed like the other drone boats.

I remember when interceptors used to have a 5% sig radius reduction bonus before the great nano nerf of 2009

No its only when you get drone bonus (tristan tracking/hp , vexor damage/hp).

And hell no again. I'm happy for once one balance pass is not straightforward gallente win. Thanks CCP.

I heard its been done specifically to bother you personally, but who knows.

So yeah, these are good for griefing solo pvpers while abusing skirmish links, but terrible for actual gang ewar.

This

I remember that. My zealot could hit orbiting crows, no tracking mods or anything.

So yeah, these are good for griefing solo pvpers while abusing skirmish links, but terrible for actual gang ewar.

Durign years we asked for better support for solo or pairs PVP and now you complain that we get it?

These will be the changes that make the most difference in the AT meta.

How about a rethink on 2 ships which never get any love......

Succabus and Phantasm

Being broken as **** is okay if it's in the name of solo/small gang?

They ar enot broken as #!@#!@ . They are still situational. They are all very fragile and will die to any light drones you send for them, they can barely pierce a wet paper bag with their firepower, so they are still going to work better supporting another ship, not solo.

I have to agree with the people predicting extremely obnoxious linked kiting setups. In the context of solo frigate battles, range control and ewar >>> everything else. The only thing you'll need to worry about is your crippled DPS failing to kill the target before reinforcements arrive.

---

My gut says these ships still lack survivability in even small gang fights. The Hyena and Sentinel, especially, since they have to operate at a closer range than the Keres or Kitsune.

very disappointing..

- sig radius is still far too high for frigs
- tank is still underwhelming considering the T1 resists
- i was hoping for more combat capability like mini combat recons
- maybe keres and sentinel could get some drone damage bonuses
- Hyena and kitsune could get some missile bonuses
- web and point ranges are already too high on Recons ....
- more ecm range is that really needed? can the kitsune even lock that far?
- 80% neut range seems excessive

overall more combat capability over long range e-war.... that's surely the permit of cruisers??

They only really had two ways to go. Make the ships super durable and survivable at their current ranges or increase their range to approximate that of the recon ships. CCP went with the second option. As such they need some weaknesses and I guess the sig radii drew the short straw.

The Keres and Sentinel are adequate. The fear factor on them is greatly increased but it had nowhere to go but up, no?

The Kitsune is one of a few boats with an e-war optimal bonus. That alone is a niche. With the new lock range, a sensor booster, and an ionic field projector rig or two you'll see this thing at 100km - 150km. I guess balance is only having three jammers.

They Hyena really needs the MWD cap reduction bonus or you'll only see the thing with links or coupled with a Keres.

Meeh i rpefer now because i can use my hyena with AB with no shame on my soul.

Another thing, comparing with the Maulus, the Keres hay way less offensive capabilities. Only 1 drone and 2 fittable in bay. While the Maulus has 4 controllable and a bay to fit 6. Although the Keres variant is more designed for pointing and damping while the Maulus is just damps and some drone dps I think the T2 version could still maybe use bit more drone power. Maybe you could look into that? :)

Just what eve needs, more overpowered long range ewar ships.

Anyone who thinks this change is a good idea didn't play eve 3-4 years ago.

/wipes drool off keyboard.

Honestly, I was hoping for a speed increase, hp buff and .....covert ops cloaks, since that role isn't filled, a cheaper covert ops bridgeable ewar ship that can be used effectively with a gang of bombers.

Still, I'll not complain about having EAF V.

I think you, me and at least two other dudes have EAF V.

Hey bro I've got it too!

I have to agree with the people predicting extremely obnoxious linked kiting setups. In the context of solo frigate battles, range control and ewar >>> everything else. The only thing you'll need to worry about is your crippled DPS failing to kill the target before reinforcements arrive.

---

My gut says these ships still lack survivability in even small gang fights. The Hyena and Sentinel, especially, since they have to operate at a closer range than the Keres or Kitsune.

Keres drone bay is a joke! One pidly light drone. I don't want to be insulting, but seriously are you ******* high (see I did not say something else)? anyway ffs

You should make it at least 10/20 and then it might be worth actually spending time on interacting with the damn dronebay. Wait **** that. You are giving the Sentinel 20/60, and the new SOE frig 25/75. It should be at least 15/30.

Also, ecm boats need no buffing. Too much agility on the Kitsune. And where is it written that you had to double the ewar range bonus? Couldn't you have stopped at 15 or 20% per level? Why do you want to end up with 125% optimal on this particular ship, a tech II ecm frig? Sure all those frigs that might fly out to catch it have such hefty sensor strength.

Damn... so... Sentinel? Wow, that's insanely epicly going to be OP, awesome until then though.

OP only compared to the competition though, the Hyena, Keres, and Kitsune will remain "meh" for the time being.

Hyena is better, but I don't see it being that great. A 3% per level bonus? No other ship has anything nearly that pitiful, and on sig radius reduction of all things? C'mon CCP... I mean its ok, but I'd rather fly an AF like a Blarpy.

This thread seems to be one big collective "Meh" aside from the Sentinel.

i dont quite get the wording on the first EAF skill bonus, how can something go to +80% with 40% per level?

Solid overall. But does the Hyena really need longer webs than a rapier. I mean, they're annoying as it is for kite ships. Now a pasky frigs will be able to web you from even further. Perhaps 40% as the Rapier and Hugin currently have would be fine and also maybe considering to bump down the bonus for both this and the recons to 30% per level would be a good idea?

I can't understand how many people see something "Overpowered" Or just generally powerful and getting all excited about CCP giving them that powerful thing..

Instead of thinking of the fact that everyone else gets it.. and will have it even when you are not in it...


so many people just seem to get super excited at the thought of winmobiles...

This ship class has been dead for four years. Ewar is supposed to have a 'pucker' effect and to give the class the neccesary oomph is going to rock the boat. Once everyone gets past the 'omygod the range' reaction they will realize that these are 20 million isk frigates with little tank and abnormally large sig radii. They are going to get blapped often.

Love the sentinel change.

With the only guarantee that you can permajam noobships, the Kitsune, while improved is still laughable

KITSUNE

Caldari Frigate Bonuses:
20% bonus to ECM target jammer strength per level
20% reduction in ECM target jammers' capacitor need per level (Instead of: 10% reduction in ECM target jammers' capacitor need per level)

Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses:
25% bonus to ECM target jammer optimal range per level (+12.5% per level)
20% reduction in ECM target jammers cycle time (Instead of: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level)

(maybe even incorporate its capacitor bonus into the hull?)


With this you reduce the cycle time of its jammers, allowing a better allocation in fast frigate combats, increase the survivability of the kitsune without makeing it much stronger, and keep a tactical niche to it no other jamming ship has.

KITSUNE

Caldari Frigate Bonuses:
20% bonus to ECM target jammer strength per level
20% reduction in ECM target jammers' capacitor need per level (Instead of: 10% reduction in ECM target jammers' capacitor need per level)

Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses:
25% bonus to ECM target jammer optimal range per level (+12.5% per level)
20% reduction in ECM target jammers cycle time (Instead of: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level)

(maybe even incorporate its capacitor bonus into the hull?)


With this you reduce the cycle time of its jammers, allowing a better allocation in fast frigate combats, increase the survivability of the kitsune without makeing it much stronger, and keep a tactical niche to it no other jamming ship has.

I... Can't seriously believe fozzie that you think giving a linked, fed webbed hyena 87K web range is some how a good idea. Nano PvP will be completely eclipsed with this ******* monster unleashed. Its going to be fast as all hell, have amazing sig tank, and disgusting web range- all for a cheap, easily trainable hull.

In fact all of the EAF's have gotten ridiculous. EWAR is so punishing to a small gang / solo pilot. This kind of unprecedented boost really places that community in a very, very difficult spot. Were these ships just made for some AT shenanigans?

Please explain to me how you see a gang dealing with that hyena? Just bring enough maulus of their own to damp everything down?

This is so far over the top. I can understand the huginn / rapier having some nice bonues. They are expensive, difficult to train, and can at least be shot at / killed. EvE has no place for these EAF monsters. EWAR is just to brutal on these frig hulls.

Play better then. Pretty much. I too hate the ECM mechanics, but still I think it has a place in gamemechanics. If you are so worried bout stuff like ability to kite away, just warp on and off, until you split them enough. And after all, the hyena is and will be oneshottable. Keres then again is not to a solo pilot, as it will damp you to 0km

Minmatar already sacrifice bonuses with the weakest of ALL e war ( painters) it sfair that they have a STRONG power on the other ewar.

Or how many rapiers use TP? THe hyena will fly with 2 bonus NEVER used. BEcause is always better to carry a secodn web than a target painter.

If these things go live as is, the only viable ship to solo around in will be a RLML Cerberus.
Seriously. Increasing their range was the wrong idea.

In fact all of the EAF's have gotten ridiculous. EWAR is so punishing to a small gang / solo pilot.

If these things go live as is, the only viable ship to solo around in will be a RLML Cerberus.
Seriously. Increasing their range was the wrong idea.

Play better then? Stop spouting off crap.

Just warp away?

So trying to confirm that you are telling me to just run away from fights, and to somehow play better vs a ship that can web we from insane distances where most ships struggle to even reach? Yah... I too love flying only RLM cerbs for the foreseeable future.

Shouldn't the Keres be able to use 4 drones like the Maulus?

Hyena's Ewar capabilites allow you to slow down and increase the size of a ship so dramaticly that any ship approaching your fleet within 35 km (almost double with faction webs / links) knows its doomed. With an effective paint up to 80 ish km you can increase the kiting gangs damage application by nearly double that of normal.

Confirming. It's called adapting, there, Skippy. I can agree that the ranges on these EAFs could do with a bit of lowering (Half their range bonuses that have been suggested and play with it from there), but other than that, yes. Run away, regroup and come up with a plan to deal with ships like this. Or you could always run away as you suggested. Isn't that what you do to griffins already?

To fight Griffins as they are now, you need to just exceed their lock range, or just shoot them.

You're confusing the two terms running away and staying on the field. Running away means literally not fighting, and leaving the field. Any self respecting gang that doesn't bring Hyenas to the field will be ********, they will be everywhere, and there will be more than one at all times.

So I guess you can't do any solo work on the field vs another gang, yeah ok, that sounds like fun and emergent game-play.

Tell me, other than a CN RLM cerb- how are you hitting that hyena, moving around 5K+ From 60K out? Because really, if you can name any ship- please do so. The cerb is going to struggle to apply full DPS at that point with out some crash on board.

Play better then? Stop spouting off crap.

Just warp away?

So trying to confirm that you are telling me to just run away from fights, and to somehow play better vs a ship that can web we from insane distances where most ships struggle to even reach? Yah... I too love flying only RLM cerbs for the foreseeable future.

I would love if the target painter range obnus would be swapped for anything... a 5% AB speed bonus woudl be my personal choice :P

I think
5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
is more proper.

If you're soloing in a light , relative short-ranged ship, the situation is no different to a Rapier arriving on grid at range. Presumably you have some method of dealing with that rather than just crying on the forums?

If you're in gang, then just kill it or damp it. Rail Deimos, for a start.

I'd actually like to see any of these regularly beat out an ishkur, dramiel, or daredevil.

This proposed iteration of the EAF's will definitely have fun rolling all over 'lower end' frigs, but I'm seriously skeptical of how well they'll do against the higher end, long standing dominant frig's like the Daredevil/Dramiel, Ishkur/Harpy/Hawk.

Yeah, the occasional upset(read Imicus vs Enyo) happens, but I don't think these will be able to routinely 1v1 most the AF's and faction frigs.

Confirming. It's called adapting, there, Skippy. I can agree that the ranges on these EAFs could do with a bit of lowering (Half their range bonuses that have been suggested and play with it from there), but other than that, yes. Run away, regroup and come up with a plan to deal with ships like this. Or you could always run away as you suggested. Isn't that what you do to griffins already?

If you're soloing in a light , relative short-ranged ship, the situation is no different to a Rapier arriving on grid at range. Presumably you have some method of dealing with that rather than just crying on the forums?

If you're in gang, then just kill it or damp it. Rail Deimos, for a start.

I like all the 'Hyena is OP!' arguments that include faction webs and Skirmish links.

I feel sorry for you if that's the small gang pvp you have settle for.

I'd actually like to see any of these regularly beat out an ishkur, dramiel, or daredevil.

This proposed iteration of the EAF's will definitely have fun rolling all over 'lower end' frigs, but I'm seriously skeptical of how well they'll do against the higher end, long standing dominant frig's like the Daredevil/Dramiel, Ishkur/Harpy/Hawk.



Yeah, the occasional upset(read Imicus vs Enyo) happens, but I don't think these will be able to routinely 1v1 most the AF's and faction frigs.

If these things go live as is, the only viable ship to solo around in will be a RLML Cerberus.
Seriously. Increasing their range was the wrong idea.

A rail deimos is going to have trouble tracking a frig at that distance, let alone one going at close to 5K (which means it can keep transversal up while chasing) with a sig radius bonus - a rapier won't have those advantages.

there is no reason not to include it. If you don't fit faction webs to your rapier, you are either bad at game and poor- or bad at game.... and just bad.

completely different to faction web a rapier and ahyena. Hyena will die 50 times more. Its can be easily insta popped. You woudl be wastign isk most of time using faction webs on it.

Griffens get FOF missiled, or I can actually shoot / kill them. They are not sitting out at suer extreme ranges.

And no you may not call me skippy / adapting. There is no way to adapt to a hyena when you are solo / super small gang. Those things are going to be fuckign nightmares. Again, solo / small gang pilot running away and 're-grouping' as advice. WTF kind of idea is that?

If these things go live as is, the only viable ship to solo around in will be a RLML Cerberus.
Seriously. Increasing their range was the wrong idea.

I would just like to point out that a 20% reduction per level at all level V's means that the cycle is literally 0 seconds, so instantaneous and merely a lockbreaker effect.

Hyena is probably just as survivable as a huginn, since it goes twice as fast and has a third of the sig

Whats about an special immunity:

Sentinal(Amarr)
against theyr own special - NEUT/NOS
or
against theyr counterpart - Target Painter


Kitsue (Caldari)
against theyr own special - ECM
or
against theyr counterpart - Dampener


Keres (Gallente)
against theyr own special - Dampener
or
against theyr counterpart - ECM

Hyena (Minmatar)
against theyr own special - Target Painter
or
against theyr counterpart - NEUT/NOS

you would be surprised how stronk and useful this bonus is (dreadblapping).

Alright, these are awesome. So awesome in fact, that I worry what you can do to the current recons. These look a bit too powerful.

REALLY? after how many years of absolute bitching and people wanting eaf's to be good you still didnt change the fundamental thing that makes them all SUCK? their sig radius? litterly NOTHING has changed with these ships. they will still die to ANY battleship that looks at them funny

Yeah it's kind of like a 20m ISK frigate was never intended to be part of battleship fleet comps or something...


What CCP isn't getting here is that nobody is going to like balancing ships around the idea of "you know what's a good counter to these? Bring more of them!" and that's exactly what these EAFs are at least within their hull class. You've made frigate hulls that can shut down other ships from well outside every other frigates lock range let alone damage range, wtf is the counter to these ships other than "bring your own!" or sniper ships several classes above them? Give me a gang of ships heavily comped towards EAFs and I guarantee no similar sized frig/Dessie gang is going to have a chance in hell of winning that engagement unless they bring their own EAFs to counter my EAFs, and that's terrible balancing.

GOALS

Make them more useful

Make them sensible in relation to the new t1 disruption frigs

Avoid overlap with other classes (interceptors and disruption frigs?)

DESIGN HIGHLIGHTS

Increased the range bonus from Electronic Attack Ship skill on all four ships significantly

Slightly increased base hp

Slightly increased maxvelocity

Increased lock range significantly

Increased cap recharge from 1.33/sec to around 2/sec (this is a big deal)

Increasing the range for points/webs/ecm/neuts on these ships should hopefully make them useful enough to show up in lighter/faster fleets that need recon type support but want either faster or cheaper ships doing it. The base stat buffs are to bring them close to where the disruptions frigs are.

It takes two neut cycles (which takes under 8 seconds overheated and with low-grade talismans) from a maximum range of 32km for a Sentinel to cap out any frigate/assault ship. After that it's game over for any ship not able to return damage. You'll just tracking disrupt ships with projectile weapons so they won't hit you or the drones, and well, all hybrid/laser boats will be sitting ducks after they are drained.

I'd say this ship is quite overpowered.

Except that you've got no tackle so every ship you primary can just peace out, pull range or bounce out. Unless you count losing a bunch of ships before the enemy gang warps off as winning, you can't really do **** in a small gang without tackle

But you will have entire fleets of 30M ships, warping in at 130 km out, essentially untouchable by most weapon systems, and jamming the opposition out of existence as they lock so fast. How long before we see the large blocs flying entire wings, or even fleets, of throwaway cost EWAR T2 frigates.

.

The only real thing I feel needs to be changed with these is the sentinel band width reduced to 15 and drone bay reduced a bit, with the Keres getting a small drone bandwidth/bay increase.

Anyone who's solo'ing already knows there are ships they cannot fight, that if they try to fight, they will die. A punisher does not try to fight an ishkur or dramiel, as a general rule. A cruiser GTFO's or proceeds very cautiously at the sight of a condor.

All that is going to happen here are people are going to figure out which ships can and can't fight a sentinel. And most AF's are still going to laugh at these. Missile boats care very little for your tracking disruption. Sure, they're vulnerable to neuts. But an EAF's damage is so low an AF's natural 'toughness for a frig' should just be inconvenienced. 4 unbonused light drones don't really do that much damage. And for the theoretical 'capping out' they have to be neut fit in the highs, so they are it's ONLY damage. Yeah, Enyo, Retribution, and Harpy, might struggle a bit, but all 3 of those are pretty tanky AF's too. They'll just have to adjust their strategy or pick their fights. The world won't end.

While there are always exceptions to the rule, in general these ships are not going to be well suited to solo work. Too fragile in the event they do get caught, too expensive when a T1 variant can do most the job anyway, and easy to spot on D scan and avoid or counter.

Yeah, a Kitsune is gonna be interesting, but that fault is in ECM, not the ship. But just keep an eye on your D scan and avoid the fight, or have a plan to deal with it, read drones, or ECCM or neuts, or a great many options available, up to and including calling for back up. And if you're in a fleet.... well then there are options there for dealing with it too.

EAF's have been pretty much useless for a while. They're still gonna be fragile. Get a condor to go catch it and slow it down, then 1 shot it off field. They're still gonna be in a pretty niche role. They should actually be able to DO the job well enough to justify the added cost/skill now, as opposed to their current iteration where the only reason I might fly a Keres is the point range, because a Maulus does the rest the job pretty well.


To assume every sentinel is gonna be using Talismans is a bad assumption as well. And to assume Talisman's won't lend to a sense of over confidence is also a bad assumption.


But until the test server is ready to use with these builds, I'm certainly not gonna cry 'pwnmobile!' just because they're getting a much needed buff. And IF the sentinel does become a monster to deal with... well then it won't be, because either everyone will use it or no one will fight it or everyone will know how to counter it, read another EAF(Kitsune to jam, Keres to damp, Sentinel to Neut, Hyena to web).

There are some really cool potential relationships going on with these changes. Kinda sad that they're getting whined about so hard.

Claims that new EAS are overpowered are IMHO unfounded.

I might disagree with you specifically concerning the Sentinel. I've done a little playing on EFT with the current one, which fits just the same as the future one, but with some small changes:

[Sentinel, test]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Egress Port Maximizer I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

Warrior II x4
Warrior II x8

Post buff stats: ~3500 EHP, cap stable with everything but the NOS running (you probably won't have something to drain if you're neuting the other guy), 80 DPS, 30km neuts neuting 108/cycle, ~2700m/s, it *should* be cap stable running at least 1 neut, the tracking disruptor and the warp disruptor without the cap booster after patch.

Basically what it comes down to is if it has turrets and is within 30km range of you, it's likely about to die a slow and horrible death. It'll have no cap to chase/kill you with, its guns won't be able to shoot anything, including your drones, and it will die as everything shuts down and your drones pick it apart.

Post buff stats: ~3500 EHP, cap stable with everything but the NOS running (you probably won't have something to drain if you're neuting the other guy), 80 DPS, 30km neuts neuting 108/cycle, ~2700m/s, it *should* be cap stable running at least 1 neut, the tracking disruptor and the warp disruptor without the cap booster after patch.

Basically what it comes down to is if it has turrets and is within 30km range of you, it's likely about to die a slow and horrible death. It'll have no cap to chase/kill you with, its guns won't be able to shoot anything, including your drones, and it will die as everything shuts down and your drones pick it apart.

Hyenas are going to be THE thing to run capital escalations, you read it here first.

48m sig radius. 3500 EHP. That is pretty close to the norm for these ships. They all seem to do less then 100 DPS as well. They have trouble killing drones in a timely manner much less enemy ships in a 1v1. Ewar is a force multiplier but it won't take that much to blap these things.

Links used as an argument can give them pretty sick stats. On the other side of the coin a 30m isk ewar frigate can pretty much shut down some 'leet solo pvp'ers' with their booster alts in system.

Your post suggests that you do not solo pvp in frigates a lot, especially your talk about an AF's natural 'toughness for a frig', what does that even mean? A standard Sentinel fit does ~100 dps with hobs (1 DDA), that is more than enough to break the tank of a typical AF. The Sentinel can outrun drones and after this buff it can even stay outside a typical Hawk's rocket range (22,8km) while neuting. You say AFs would laugh at it, then give me an example outside LML Hawk/Vengeance lol-fits. These will be untouchable in most frig/AF 1vs1 situations because they simply will not be caught (unless stupid mistakes are made).

The Talismans were included to prove a point, but without them you'd cap out any AF in 10 seconds instead of 8. Big difference.

I think a better idea is to keep e-war as it is or nerf it a bit. Instead buff the ship's survivability and combat ability. A frigate neuting at 32km or webbing at 35km (without links or faction webs) seems immensily overpowered to me. Saying that overpowered ships are okay because "then everyone will use them" or "noone will fight them anyway" is a really crappy argument for letting these ships into the game.

Dex, post with your main, or don't post.


As it is, you're doing alot of theorying that has no basis behind it.


A sentinel with 1 DDA has about the equivalent of a news paper for tank. All any frigate will have to do is look at it funny and it will die. or be in half hull at least. There is pretty much no reason for someone to BE in honorable 1v1 frigate combat at the sun with a sentinel, anyway, because... well.... D scan bro. And in the Event they are, Overheat your AB/MWD and burn away, because you know the sentinel will pull range. Or fit a cap booster. Yeah, you may have to give up something for it, but I believe that is the point of fitting in Eve. Choices.


And IN the event you lose a frigate...... please send me the mail with your tears.

Get on the test server, bro.


A ship being a strong frigate in Honorable 1v1 Frigate combat at the sun doesn't make it a monster that must be put down like the rabid dog it is, as I've heard T3's described as. That same sentinel will get eaten by everything else. So what if it's possibly, POSSIBLY, a strong 1v1 frigate(which it is probably not near as OMGWTFBBQSAUCE as you're making it out to be).
A vexor is a pretty strong cruiser too. But it fits well into the whole scheme. A curse is really good in it's element, but outside of it, it's completely useless.

Enter the Sentinel.


Get on Test server, and try it.

An ishkur will not even be phased by a sentinel. First it kills its drones, because 5 bonused drones eats 4 unbonused drones, and.... oh.... require no cap, then it eats the sentinel.


Drones rarely apply all '100 dps', AND ishkur's have pretty decent resists.

Let it see the light of day and how it interacts with all the others before condemning it.


A sentinel will have a really difficult time neuting a Kitsune when it's jammed, or a Keres when it's been damped down to nothing, or a really hard time pulling range on a Hyena.

But, but, but, drones!?

Yeah... drones.


Let the test server speak for itself. The Sentinel's drone bay is a bit too large. The rest of it, and all the others looks really interesting.



Saying that because YOU think they will be overpowered, while posting on an alt with no KB history, they must be nerfed is a really crappy argument, bro.

How can you kill it if you cannot catch it? It kites remember? And with no juice to run AB/MWD (because of neut) you are stationary, hence most of the drone DPS will apply. I am trying to convince you while backing up with actual fits and hard numbers. If you still are not convinced I suggest you search for it on youtube, among others there are some vid's from Bienator II there who seem to fly it alot and actually spoke against the buff earlier in this thread. And those vid's are with a Sentinel with 19km neut range. And for my main, I've got a hint for you, there are only 2 pilots in this corp.

Since it looks like most of your kills are killing FW peeps, in a slasher........


You DO have a gate, and D scan.


You can fit a cap booster.


You can catch it on its warp in.


You're trying to convince me there is no reason whatsoever to in any way shape or form run this set up on the test server, that because this ship might be a strong frigate, it has absolutely no place or reason to be in Eve.

What I'm telling you is that it is worth looking at, and it CAN be a strong frigate, and have a place in the rest of Eve, and Still be fairly well balanced. Because it could beat other frigates..... well we can't have that.

How often does that slasher of yours win against dramiels? Ishkurs? Your daredevil kill was you and two other interceptors.


So you're arguing that a ship shouldn't be able to put up a fight? Maybe even win some? You're arguing maintain the status quo because change is bad..... See how it goes.

The balance in these EAF's is this: The Keres and Kitsune can completely shut the Hyena and Sentinel down for a time. But, the Hyena and Sentinel have the ability to counter the Keres and Kitsune with webs, neuts and drones.


A frig without an AB still goes ballpark 250-300m/s, and still has a tiny sig, so still throws drone DPS. Not entirely but it does reduce it.


I suggest you sit back, relax, and be the first person on Test server when these hit.

And learn to fly something other than a slasher. Because... yeah. A slasher will struggle with these.

Yeah it's kind of like a 20m ISK frigate was never intended to be part of battleship fleet comps or something...


What CCP isn't getting here is that nobody is going to like balancing ships around the idea of "you know what's a good counter to these? Bring more of them!" and that's exactly what these EAFs are at least within their hull class. You've made frigate hulls that can shut down other ships from well outside every other frigates lock range let alone damage range, wtf is the counter to these ships other than "bring your own!" or sniper ships several classes above them? Give me a gang of ships heavily comped towards EAFs and I guarantee no similar sized frig/Dessie gang is going to have a chance in hell of winning that engagement unless they bring their own EAFs to counter my EAFs, and that's terrible balancing.

I'm not a fan of the current changes being implemented. Those in this thread and others or in the past. One my my biggest issues is what I see as OVERLAP. Examples of overlap are as follows: Caracal/Bellicose, Myrmidon/Prophecy, Typhoon/Raven, Drake/Cyclone, and Dominix/Armageddon ETC.

In some cases Amarr drone ships are superior to Gallente ones and some Minmatar missile ships are as good or better than caldari ships of the same class. These ships DO THE SAME THING.

Anyway.

Here's an obvious but serious question. Why do electronic attack frigates have bonuses to multiple electronic warfare bonuses just like Recons? Shouldn't they have less capability? Not to mention the issue of OVERLAP between the 2 classes of ships?

In my opinion the electronic attack frigates should excel at one form of offensive electronic warfare module. For example:

- only bonuses for energy vampire and energy neutralizer on the Sentinel.
- only bonuses warp disruptor range on the Keres
- only bonuses stasis webifier range on the Hyena
- Kitsune does it thing.

and so on... There's no need for a bonus to tracking disruptors and remote sensor dampeners because they're already REALLY effective.

From this point on I'd just give them all resistance bonuses to add to survivability. I'd also limit their overall velocities to just under 2000 m/sec. None of these ships should be really fast in my opinion. These ships should focus mainly on Defense and their electronic warfare almost ignore damage all together.

Yeah it's kind of like a 20m ISK frigate was never intended to be part of battleship fleet comps or something...


What CCP isn't getting here is that nobody is going to like balancing ships around the idea of "you know what's a good counter to these? Bring more of them!" and that's exactly what these EAFs are at least within their hull class. You've made frigate hulls that can shut down other ships from well outside every other frigates lock range let alone damage range, wtf is the counter to these ships other than "bring your own!" or sniper ships several classes above them? Give me a gang of ships heavily comped towards EAFs and I guarantee no similar sized frig/Dessie gang is going to have a chance in hell of winning that engagement unless they bring their own EAFs to counter my EAFs, and that's terrible balancing.

Honestly I have no idea why players are suggesting a Sentinel and Keres can be exploded by a battleship so easily.

When I've rocked the aforementioned ships I tend to be able to lock down most direct combat ships above destroyers. The Keres and Sentinel have always been the most useful in fleets and survivable. Both ships can be armored or shield tanked.

Example:

[Keres, K]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Overdrive Injector System II

Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Warrior II x1

As I've said. The Keres and or Sentinel can lock down at least one ship. Often you'll only have to deal with removing said ships drones. THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE IS TO MAKE THE SLIGHTLY MORE SURVIVABLE.

note: i would make an exception for the Hyena and I would focus on increasing its stasis webifier Range ONLY.

I must confess... while I like these changes I'm also a fair bit leery.

There is already quite a bit of Ewar shenanigans in low-sec... the Faction War areas especially. I can definitely see Keres, Sentinels, Hyenas soloing various frigates and destroyers from ~30+ km away... the latter two especially as the Sentinel won't have much to fear outside of Light Missile ships and the Hyena will simply live up to it's name and laugh while double webbing everything from well beyond frigate/destroyer engagement range.

Perhaps reduce a speed on them a fair bit?
These ships are going to be engaging at extreme range (relative to frigates) regardless of the situation (as any proper Ewar boat should)... they need a more serious drawback besides being "fragile" (with high enough speed you can be as fragile as you want to be... few people are going to hit you).

What? You realize a thrasher with arties is NOT outside engagement range at around 24 km? YEs.. 24 km because you will not solo anything if you cannot POINT it as well.

Kagura Nikon

Provided a Keres can lock a dominix or Armageddon before being locked. Drones will not agress the Keres. Arguments can be made that the Dominix or Armageddon would drop drones first. No doubt that would be wise. However, provided the Keres can destroy a single flight of drones. The aforementioned would still occur. NO damage being applied to the Keres and the Keres holding said ships indefinitely.

A Keres is able to "point" something @ 36,000m without overheating. 2 Dampers applied to an Armageddon or Dominix will lower their locking range to around 18,000m

Anyway.

Like I stated before. The Keres, Kitsune, and Sentinel are capable of removing damage of or holding MOST ships on grid INDEFINITELY.

On another note. I agree with what someone else suggested. I brought up the idea that electronic attack frigates overall velocity should be reduced. All of them should not exceed 2000 m/sec. I also wanted to increase their survivability to give others something be happy about but maybe they SHOULD be EVEN less survivable like ShahFluffers suggested.