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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
33
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Posted - 2011.11.19 07:17:00 -
[811] - Quote
Rip Minner wrote:Why do all Caldari pilots think that Crap Hybirds are the main weapon sytem of Gallente it's not its are secondary weapon system too. Drones are the main Gallente weapon system.
Count how many drone focused/bonused Gallente ships there are and how many hyrbid focused/bonused ships there are and then think about it a little bit. Also way to sextuple post, there is an edit button so have a think about that to. |
Phantomania
Alien Ship Builders Caedite Eos
17
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Posted - 2011.11.19 08:38:00 -
[812] - Quote
If you dont like the Lemonade in the glass cup, its ok, because we also have Lemonade in a plastic cup too?
I love this, and it actually explains the Talos/Naga issue perfectly!
Btw, I wonder why CCP Devs are not commenting, are they avoiding the situation?
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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
23
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Posted - 2011.11.19 08:41:00 -
[813] - Quote
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:Rip Minner wrote:Why do all Caldari pilots think that Crap Hybirds are the main weapon sytem of Gallente it's not its are secondary weapon system too. Drones are the main Gallente weapon system. Count how many drone focused/bonused Gallente ships there are and how many hyrbid focused/bonused ships there are and then think about it a little bit. Also way to sextuple post, there is an edit button so have a think about that to. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente
Champions of liberty and fierce guardians of the human spirit, the Gallente Federation is the only true democracy in New Eden. Some of the most progressive leaders, scientists, and businessmen of the era have emerged from its diverse peoples. Pioneers of artificial intelligence, the Federation once relied almost entirely on drone fleets to defend its beliefs and borders. But the limitations of this technology and the lack of a human elementGÇöboth in terms of a military strategy, and as a means of spreading influenceGÇö eventually reached a critical point. Today, Gallentean starships are manned by some of the bravest men and women of New Eden.
Ya cant wonder why we Gallentes belive that Drones are the main weapon system of Gallentes.
Count ships ok lets start at the top with BS
BS carry has to have at least 125m3 drone bandwidth and at the very least at least 125m3 done bay lets look now at BS's
Tier 1 Dominix 125m3 Drone bandwidth and 375m3 drone bay with a drone dmg bonus on ship.
tier 2 Megathron it has 2 hybird weapon bonus on ship but lets look at the fittings opps only 6 turrent points but to make up for that its also a drone ships with 125m3 drone bandwidth and 125m3 drone bay so 1/1 hybirds and drones.
tier 3 Hyperion Hybirds.
So thats 2 ships for Hybirds and 2 ships for drones. Even Steven so far.
How about Tech 2 ships lets take a look there.
Sin whats this 125m3 drone bandwidth and 400m3 drone bay and drone dmg bonus
The Marauder Kronos is differntly a Hybird ship with slightly enhanced Drone bay for more drone flexablity but still primarly a Hybird ship.
So still even steven on Hybirds and Drone ships at 1/1 Tech 2 BS's.
Now one to tech 1 Gallente cruisers.
Cruiser drone carryers have to have at least 50m3 drone bandwidth and atleast the same in drone bay.
Celestis is a EW ship so I dont realy think its weapons realy count. But if you look at it there is a hybird bonus but its only got 3 turret hardpoints and 2 launcher and 40m3 drone bandwidth/bay so its weapons lay out is kind of all over the place becouse its main role is EW. So not counting this one for ether hybirds or drones.
Exequror is a Logi/hualer ship and it has no weapon bonus but has 4 turret hardpoints and 40m3 Drone bandwidth/bay again not counting this one as ether a hybird or drone ship.
Thorax Diffently a Hybird ship. But it do's full fill the base needs of also being a drone carry with 50m3 Drone bandwidth/bay so its a 1/1 1 for hybirds and 1 for drone carryers both. Ship bonus are hybird dmg and Micro warpdrive and so the final results is its the best blaster hybird tech 1 cruiser making it over shadow its drone carry bandwidth/bay.
Vexor Drone ships hands down 75m3 Drone bandwidth and 100m3 drone bay. 4 turrent hardpoints and ship bonus for both hybirds and drones but drone carry it diffently is.
So that's basicly even Steven again with 1/1 for both hybirds and drone carrys.
Ok thats were I stop as it would take way to much posting space to keep coming up Even Steven across most of the Gallente fleet for both hybirds and drones. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
23
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Posted - 2011.11.19 09:23:00 -
[814] - Quote
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:Rip Minner wrote:Why do all Caldari pilots think that Crap Hybirds are the main weapon sytem of Gallente it's not its are secondary weapon system too. Drones are the main Gallente weapon system. Count how many drone focused/bonused Gallente ships there are and how many hyrbid focused/bonused ships there are and then think about it a little bit. Also way to sextuple post, there is an edit button so have a think about that to.
And also instead of counting how many Hybird bonus ships there are why not try looking into the fact that only One hybird ships at each tech level and class are used and only one drone ship is used in each class.
Then take another step back to get a even better look at what Gallente ships are truely being used.
Can you guess what the most used Gallente ships are? Dominix? Myrmidon? Vexor? Ishtar? Lachesis/Arazu witch are EW ships.
And I will be truethfull and say I dont know much about how the Gallente frigs work as I only ever fly the Covert Ops ones both for bomber and scaning.
And weather or not Hybirds have been broken for the last two years makes no differnts becouse Drones have been broken over the last two years as well with no good way to raise are Drone dps to match that of projectiles and lazers.
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SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
253
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Posted - 2011.11.19 09:46:00 -
[815] - Quote
Is EVE a game for spacewarrior and badass spacefleet commanders, or is this some sort of place for whiny kids ?
Yes, the Naga will be using turrets.
And then what ? Is that a SO BIG DEAL that you have to come here and sextuple post about how gallente uses drones and all that ?
Hint : It's not. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
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Posted - 2011.11.19 10:00:00 -
[816] - Quote
Good god... you people. How how HOW can you complain about two new ships using hybrids and advocate for the new Gallente / Caldari BCs to use drones / missiles?
Have you ever ~*used*~ drones or missiles in PvP? They're absolutely terrible! Drones are glitchy, subject to being killed quickly and easily independently of their carrier, and hampered with speed and tracking problems that make them ineffective combat tools. Missiles, aside from heavies, are utter **** for PvP as well-- first there's the travel time problem, then there's the fact that none of the non-medium missile systems do any damage. Rockets and lights are just pathetically awful in terms of DPS and their ability to hit their intended (small, fast moving) targets for decent damage. Cruises / torps are similarly useless in that they can't do proper damage to anything other than battleships or larger.
There's a reason you don't see fleets of Ravens and Dominixes (the two month obsession with Das Boot fleets aside) on the field. Drones suck. Rockets suck. Light missiles suck. Cruises are at best "not good." Torps are almost completely worthless vs things smaller than POS. Only heavy missiles are anywhere near useful for PvP, which, when combined with the absolutely broken stats on the tier 2 Caldari BC is why 3/4 of EVE PvP these days consists of DrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakes.
Drones and missiles are bad for PvP. If a moronic subset of Caldari pilots really wishes to saddle themselves with yet another missile boat, fine, but leave Gallente out of it. I'll keep my blasters, thanks very much.
By the way, this is coming from someone who has (between all characters) every cruiser 5, all battleship 5's, and has flown ships from all races. It's not like I don't speak from experience. |
Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
33
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Posted - 2011.11.19 10:25:00 -
[817] - Quote
Rip Minner wrote:Jhagiti Tyran wrote:Rip Minner wrote:Why do all Caldari pilots think that Crap Hybirds are the main weapon sytem of Gallente it's not its are secondary weapon system too. Drones are the main Gallente weapon system. Count how many drone focused/bonused Gallente ships there are and how many hyrbid focused/bonused ships there are and then think about it a little bit. Also way to sextuple post, there is an edit button so have a think about that to. And also instead of counting how many Hybird bonus ships there are why not try looking into the fact that only One hybird ships at each tech level and class are used and only one drone ship is used in each class. Then take another step back to get a even better look at what Gallente ships are truely being used. Can you guess what the most used Gallente ships are? Dominix? Myrmidon? Vexor? Ishtar? Lachesis/Arazu witch are EW ships. And I will be truethfull and say I dont know much about how the Gallente frigs work as I only ever fly the Covert Ops ones both for bomber and scaning. And weather or not Hybirds have been broken for the last two years makes no differnts becouse Drones have been broken over the last two years as well with no good way to raise are Drone dps to match that of projectiles and lazers. No drone hardwiring. No drone dmg modules or a rework of drone ships to double the bandwidth and bays and adding drone control units to them. Ether way this would go along way bring drone dps up to par with Projectiles and Lazers. The drone dmg modules should be low slots like all other dmg modules and probly would be both the best for lag and easyest for all to grasp and understand. Only Sentry drone dmg rigs. No tech 2 drone modules at least till this expation but then again Hybirds probly got buffed around as much as drones did by finely get tech 2 modules.
You still don't get it, hybrids are the primary Gallente weapon. What next? are you going to claim that Minmatars primary weapon are missiles because some of their ships have missile bonuses? Or maybe Amarr use drones as a primary weapon, they have something which even Gallente don't, ships with no weapon apart from the bonused drones.
Your idea of focusing the Talos on drones is a bad idea to, if it was drone specialised it could very well end up completely useless outside of solo or very small gang PvP.
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JessiJames
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.19 11:07:00 -
[818] - Quote
Cap Tyrian wrote:This is a hard read, you found the Talos to be "hopelessly underperforming" so your "drastically" buffing it with 25m3 of meaningless drones. 5 small drones may scar a t1 frig, 5 small ecm drones may give you a chance of running away from that lonely anything.
But as you stated its "a good compromise for the time being" that reads to me like- -Here this is the Talos, it is a bit broken but maybe someday someone may fix it, but don't give it too much hope.
Its a new ship, can you not at least motivate me buy make it look usable for at least some rear specific occasions on paper, to get me enthusiastic enough to go and find out how useless it is in space.
Let's take this argumentation a step further and assume someone someday fixes armor tanking. The Talos has roughly 10k ehp with lvl5 skills no tank mods, a rack of 1400mm would 1shot it easily. Ad all active armor tank and no damage mods and it would survive 9.5sec
Unless some new hull tanking mods are FOTM it has a dramatic weakness to alpha, making winmatar even better.
Would only the web bonus without the drones make it OP? Maybe, but it would at least be usable for something.
qft |
JessiJames
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.19 11:16:00 -
[819] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: TALOS
GÇóGeneral efficiency: we do realize it suffers from some problems next to the other hulls. Unfortunately, ...the real issue here comes from blasters,.... Thus, this is little more that can be done by tweaking the hull itself,...: GÇóDamage projection: blasters have issues projecting damage.... The issue is also widened because blasters benefit less from tracking enhancers and falloff related bonuses than their Minmatar close weapon counterpart. GÇóMobility and armor tanking conflicts with each other: no surprise here, .... Also let's not forget Minmatar ships are usually faster by design, while Gallente use the shortest weapon system. GÇóLack of usefulness in gang/fleet engagements: ... blaster ships are found lacking in gang warfare, ...
So yes, we are aware of all of that..., what you must understand here, is that there is no magic trick we can pull out of our hats to fix all these issues instantly, as they require looking into massively complex tasks ... For instance,..: GÇó ..can we add even more falloff to blasters, knowing it may be over-inflating the balance of power again? GÇó Don't we need to have a look at shield extenders/armor plates ... passive tanking...active tanking ... NOS/Neuts ... Cap boosters... Overheating? GÇó Can we make Gallente ships faster .. Wouldn't that be defeating the original design goals for Minmatar ships?
NAGA GÇó Why removing the torpedo explosion velocity? It was removed as it was making this ship too useful.. GÇó Cruise missiles...they have a fairly long range, within which the Naga doesn't have to worry about capacitor or transversal velocity GÇó Mobility: Naga can use points above to deliver long range constant damage while being quite difficult to catch itself
TORNADO: Is it overpowered? Well, that's tied to the comments made on the Talos...
I think i can sum that up for you:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Balancing is hard. In fact it is so mindboggling difficult that the people in charge always hang out with the graphics designers and look at the new awesome models instead.
Well done.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
119
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 11:23:00 -
[820] - Quote
OT Smithers wrote:Caldari are reported to be the most commonly played race in the game.
Historically many Caldari players have not invested valuable training time into hybrids for obvious reasons. 1. Caldari's main weapon is missiles, 2. Hybrids have always sucked, 3. Caldari Hybrid boats are unimpressive. Prior to this announcement only an idiot Caldari pilot would have invested the time to train hybrids.
This argument can be condensed to:
"Nobody uses Caldari railboats because they're rubbish. Since nobody uses them, there's no point in fixing them".
Now apply that argument to your stance on BS-class missiles. |
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Phantomania
Alien Ship Builders Caedite Eos
17
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Posted - 2011.11.19 11:50:00 -
[821] - Quote
So......
Can we agree that my idea of having the Missile Hard Points put back is a good idea?
At least Heavy Missile Launchers can be put on too and the Hybrid Naga keeps its bonus's!
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
146
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Posted - 2011.11.19 12:14:00 -
[822] - Quote
Phantomania wrote:So...... Can we agree that my idea of having the Missile Hard Points put back is a good idea? At least Heavy Missile Launchers can be put on too and the Hybrid Naga keeps its bonus's! I, for one, support the right of caldari pilots to failfit their ships. We don't have enough funny killmails as it. |
Phantomania
Alien Ship Builders Caedite Eos
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 12:26:00 -
[823] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Phantomania wrote:So...... Can we agree that my idea of having the Missile Hard Points put back is a good idea? At least Heavy Missile Launchers can be put on too and the Hybrid Naga keeps its bonus's! I, for one, support the right of caldari pilots to failfit their ships. We don't have enough funny killmails as it.
we'll see! |
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
21
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Posted - 2011.11.19 12:56:00 -
[824] - Quote
Since there is a new version of pyfa, I messed around a bit with it to see if I could come up with something better than I put up in game... Seems I couldn't... Here's the fit, am I missing something?
[Naga, Naga fit]
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
1386 m/s top speed, 23.4k ehp (uniform spread), 715 dps on lvl 5 skills with CN antimatter, 725 with Javelin, 415 with Spike. That's without taking into account reload time, which will lower a little the dps. Even with named mods you can't lose the current router rig, since it'd require a 5% grid implant (3.10% grid needed actually -_-')
This is, of course, a fleet sniper fit. Tracking computer may or may not be necessary... A little bit of tracking helps I guess. One could substitute a hardener, but I guess it comes down more to taste than to an effective difference.
All in all doesn't seem that bad...
(Edit: with the tracking computer on, against an identical naga, MWDing at full speed perfectly transversal you get a top dps of around 600ish, at slightly over your optimal range. For more comparisons just import the fit into pyfa)
(Edit2: with optimal range script and CN iridium, you get a 150km optimal and 417 dps, more than spike without the useless range and the tracking malus. It's actually quite a good trade off) |
wiersma
Dark Matter Systems
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 14:09:00 -
[825] - Quote
the rokh is a rare ship to see just because its a rail ship.. i would fly it all day long if it was a missile boat.
same will go for the naga if it stays a rail ship.. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 14:24:00 -
[826] - Quote
Rokh won't get used because the optimal bonus makes it a long range ship.
On TQ it is very very rare to see any important battles with long range battleships as they just don't work with the current game mechanics. Being super difficult to pin people at sniping range and getting probed in 30 seconds just isn't worth it in big, slow and expensive ships.
Also having a optimal range makes the Rokh unable to compete short range as everything else does at least 25% more damage and don't forget on TQ hybrids still stink.
Making everything a missile boat is NOT the solution. Look at the raven and tell me why they aren't used much for PvP if missiles are so great? The only reason Drakes work is because of ALPHA combined with TANK being able to save many of them with logistics.
Pinky |
Alsyth
Night Warder
10
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Posted - 2011.11.19 14:44:00 -
[827] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Making everything a missile boat is NOT the solution. Look at the raven and tell me why they aren't used much for PvP if missiles are so great? The only reason Drakes work is because of ALPHA combined with TANK being able to save many of them with logistics.
Raven sucks because BS-sized missiles suck.
Drake works because HML are rather good (balance of range, ability to hit stuff for meaningful damage, raw dps not too bad), not because of its tank. The tank is the reason for the Drake being used in DrakeBLOBS and soloHAMdrakes.
Give us a Drake without tank bonuses, and only dps bonus like the cane has, it will be flown. Will only be harder to honor tank it :-)
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Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:40:00 -
[828] - Quote
Jhagiti Tyran wrote: You still don't get it, hybrids are the primary Gallente weapon. What next? are you going to claim that Minmatars primary weapon are missiles because some of their ships have missile bonuses? Or maybe Amarr use drones as a primary weapon, they have something which even Gallente don't, ships with no weapon apart from the bonused drones.
Myrmidon.
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:Your idea of focusing the Talos on drones is a bad idea to, if it was drone specialised it could very well end up completely useless outside of solo or very small gang PvP.
Considering that solo and small gang pvp are the two types of pvp that players clamour for better quality/more of, how is that bad?
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Phantomania
Alien Ship Builders Caedite Eos
18
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Posted - 2011.11.19 15:58:00 -
[829] - Quote
Its clear,
Missiles won't get any love this expansion.
Tourettes get everything, New Ships, Balancing, GFX.
Missiles are still broken, they have no visual launcher, no animation, no preview icon, hell, they still fire out of nowhere in the middle of the ships!
thx |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:14:00 -
[830] - Quote
HA HA - You are whining like my 6 year old kid... Give it time and CCP will attend the visual launcher thing. Tbh missiles seems pretty balanced to me all around except light missiles. They are just different and NO race is forced to use missiles. They are even if you pretend it's wrong a secondary weapon system with a few ships using it as their primary... |
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
119
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:23:00 -
[831] - Quote
Phantomania wrote:Its clear, Missiles won't get any love this expansion. Tourettes get everything, New Ships, Balancing, GFX. Missiles are still broken, they have no visual launcher, no animation, no preview icon, hell, they still fire out of nowhere in the middle of the ships! thx
Nobody really cares about missile graphics. And having visible launchers just makes it blindingly obvious when you're trying to bait a frigate with an AML Drake, for example, it'll be a small nerf to missile users.
Oh wait, I forgot, rats in L4 missions don't change their behaviour based on what missiles you're using. |
Phantomania
Alien Ship Builders Caedite Eos
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:24:00 -
[832] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:HA HA - You are whining like my 6 year old kid... Give it time and CCP will attend the visual launcher thing. Tbh missiles seems pretty balanced to me all around except light missiles. They are just different and NO race is forced to use missiles. They are even if you pretend it's wrong a secondary weapon system with a few ships using it as their primary...
You called yourself Pinky, need I say more? |
Phantomania
Alien Ship Builders Caedite Eos
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:27:00 -
[833] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Phantomania wrote:Its clear, Missiles won't get any love this expansion. Tourettes get everything, New Ships, Balancing, GFX. Missiles are still broken, they have no visual launcher, no animation, no preview icon, hell, they still fire out of nowhere in the middle of the ships! thx Nobody really cares about missile graphics. And having visible launchers just makes it blindingly obvious when you're trying to bait a frigate with an AML Drake, for example, it'll be a small nerf to missile users. Oh wait, I forgot, rats in L4 missions don't change their behaviour based on what missiles you're using.
You can't even figure out how to take a decent picture of your toon! |
true Killjoy
Scourge of God
1
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:27:00 -
[834] - Quote
Phantomania. My mother once told me "if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing."
I think you should also take that advice to heart, as of right now you are just making a big fool out of yourself.
Back on topic..
Tornado with hail and the falloff ship bonus is way way over the top, CCP. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
23
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 19:00:00 -
[835] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Good god... you people. How how HOW can you complain about two new ships using hybrids and advocate for the new Gallente / Caldari BCs to use drones / missiles?
Have you ever ~*used*~ drones or missiles in PvP? They're absolutely terrible! Drones are glitchy, subject to being killed quickly and easily independently of their carrier, and hampered with speed and tracking problems that make them ineffective combat tools. Missiles, aside from heavies, are utter **** for PvP as well-- first there's the travel time problem, then there's the fact that none of the non-medium missile systems do any damage. Rockets and lights are just pathetically awful in terms of DPS and their ability to hit their intended (small, fast moving) targets for decent damage. Cruises / torps are similarly useless in that they can't do proper damage to anything other than battleships or larger.
There's a reason you don't see fleets of Ravens and Dominixes (the two month obsession with Das Boot fleets aside) on the field. Drones suck. Rockets suck. Light missiles suck. Cruises are at best "not good." Torps are almost completely worthless vs things smaller than POS. Only heavy missiles are anywhere near useful for PvP, which, when combined with the absolutely broken stats on the tier 2 Caldari BC is why 3/4 of EVE PvP these days consists of DrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakes.
Drones and missiles are bad for PvP. If a moronic subset of Caldari pilots really wishes to saddle themselves with yet another missile boat, fine, but leave Gallente out of it. I'll keep my blasters, thanks very much.
By the way, this is coming from someone who has (between all characters) every cruiser 5, all battleship 5's, and has flown ships from all races. It's not like I don't speak from experience.
O yes Drones must suck for pvp they suck so bad that they had to take them off of every Super Carrier and Carrier and then had to put them back on Carriers so they would not be about worthless. So ya your so right drones just totaly suck as pvp weapons.
And on top of that Drones have been broken over the last two years same as hybirds. No tech 2 Modules No Drone dmg modules no Drone hardwireing only Drone dmg rig is for Senterys. Meaning that the only reason Dominix's are not used much on the Battle field is becouse drone dps has been left behind to rot even as all other weapon systems are geting boosted though the roof.
And last I heared as I dont fly any races frigates much that Caldari missile frigates were doing just fine now after the last frigate class missile ajustments.
Ravens are not on the battle field in any meaningfull way becouse Battle ship Missiles and there platforms are broken. There is a glearing lack of a Tech 1 battle ships with 8xMissile hardpoints and both Cruise/Torps fly to there targets way to slow. Both are fairly easy fixs. Add two missile hard points to the raven with the needed cpu/gride for them and inc trop speed/cut fly time to keep same range and Drastly inc Cruiser speed and cut fly time to keep same range.
There mite be a few more tweaks needed for BS missiles but thoughs two are the primay problems.
At least were geting Tech 2 Drone modules at last.
And by the way I to can fly every sub capital ship and use there weapons and EW as well so I too speak from experience.
How ever I'm not one much for flying in small gank squads with witch no one has ever sayed blaster boats suck at. In fact it's the only thing there good at. And rails still just fail.
This are just facts why try twisting the true of things. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2011.11.19 19:03:00 -
[836] - Quote
wiersma wrote:the rokh is a rare ship to see just because its a rail ship.. i would fly it all day long if it was a missile boat.
same will go for the naga if it stays a rail ship..
Ok. One last f*cking time. The naga is a HYBRID ship. Not rails only. Get this straight.
The problems with the Rokh don't entirely stem from it being a Hybrid boat. there's a big thread about it on this very subforum. Part of it really has to do with the fact that it's trying to be an Abaddon only with shields and hybrids and isn't succeeding. Making every Caldari ship use missiles won't fix Caldari.
It will make Caldari truly PvE only, and I will not allow that. I am very strongly against partitioning factions into different kinds of gameplay. As it stands, the sandbox of EVE isn't really a sandbox, because in order to PvP, you almost have to fly Minmatar or Amarr, though you can get away with Caldari ECM ships in a support role. This is not a sandbox. This is pretty much every other MMO. What I want to be able to do, is have absolutely no real matter whether or not I ruin someone's day using a Blaster Moa, a 220 AC Rupture, or a rail Thorax. I want to be able to choose a ship, fly it as it's design intends with it's weapon type, and regardless of ship and opponent(s), actually have a chance at winning because a ship's stats aren't skewed towards PvP or PvE performance.
Your suggestion of making everything missiles for Caldari would then make Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar the pool of PvP factions, and if you're Caldari and want to PVP, tough luck- Crosstrain, or all you get is ECMs. I don't see why I need to spend several months skilling for another faction's ships just to engage in the another form of gameplay.
Now I'm aware that there are missile ships (or is it just ship?) that are good in PvP, that being the Drake, but that's ONE ship. It offers no variability in what the player could do succeed in PvP. Not to mention, the Drake is a serious bore to fly in PvP.
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spawx
Reaver Technologies Broken Chains Alliance
2
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Posted - 2011.11.19 19:27:00 -
[837] - Quote
Bethany Hawke wrote:Naga: I see why the reluctance with cruise (I would love it) but I can see why not - if the intended prey of the new ships are BS. If I want a rail platform I would pick the rokh over the naga. That means I would drop the hybrid from them all together and focus on torp. If you give them a +damage bonus, then it makes the raven look bad.So the only thing left, is to give them a range bonus. But what about giving them two? Flight time and velocity? Then they would become a "torp sniper" (ish). I would also give all torps 10% more range and take the range bonus off Raven/Widow (net no effect) and replace it with a straight +damage ontop of the +rof but then, I like missiles
the raven IS bad compared to the other BSes so it shuld not be measured compared to caldari BSes. in fact they shuld also be boosted in pvp usefulness. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
23
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Posted - 2011.11.19 19:31:00 -
[838] - Quote
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:Rip Minner wrote:Jhagiti Tyran wrote:Rip Minner wrote:Why do all Caldari pilots think that Crap Hybirds are the main weapon sytem of Gallente it's not its are secondary weapon system too. Drones are the main Gallente weapon system. Count how many drone focused/bonused Gallente ships there are and how many hyrbid focused/bonused ships there are and then think about it a little bit. Also way to sextuple post, there is an edit button so have a think about that to. And also instead of counting how many Hybird bonus ships there are why not try looking into the fact that only One hybird ships at each tech level and class are used and only one drone ship is used in each class. Then take another step back to get a even better look at what Gallente ships are truely being used. Can you guess what the most used Gallente ships are? Dominix? Myrmidon? Vexor? Ishtar? Lachesis/Arazu witch are EW ships. And I will be truethfull and say I dont know much about how the Gallente frigs work as I only ever fly the Covert Ops ones both for bomber and scaning. And weather or not Hybirds have been broken for the last two years makes no differnts becouse Drones have been broken over the last two years as well with no good way to raise are Drone dps to match that of projectiles and lazers. No drone hardwiring. No drone dmg modules or a rework of drone ships to double the bandwidth and bays and adding drone control units to them. Ether way this would go along way bring drone dps up to par with Projectiles and Lazers. The drone dmg modules should be low slots like all other dmg modules and probly would be both the best for lag and easyest for all to grasp and understand. Only Sentry drone dmg rigs. No tech 2 drone modules at least till this expation but then again Hybirds probly got buffed around as much as drones did by finely get tech 2 modules. You still don't get it, hybrids are the primary Gallente weapon. What next? are you going to claim that Minmatars primary weapon are missiles because some of their ships have missile bonuses? Or maybe Amarr use drones as a primary weapon, they have something which even Gallente don't, ships with no weapon apart from the bonused drones. Your idea of focusing the Talos on drones is a bad idea to, if it was drone specialised it could very well end up completely useless outside of solo or very small gang PvP.
No I think you dont get it. They cant make Hybirds usefull for anything other then small gank squads becouse that would steep on the other two gunnery skills and Projectiles and Lazers are there respective races primary weapons and they should remain as they are with out Gallente/Caldari support hybird weapon systems encroaching on there ground.
That leaves Drones and Missiles for Gallente/Caldari. Caldari are better off for this then Gallente as they have alot of missile ships in there line up even if battle ship platforms and there missiles need to be reworked to be on par with Projectiles and Lazers. You cant bring realy bring Hybirds on par with ether with out making **** poor copys of Projectiles or Lazers.
So that leaves blasters as the extrem close range witch works fine in small battles and fleets and Rails at Extrem long range with witch there is no use for in game at the moment do to game mechanics. And thats the way they should stay.
But we still need to get Gallente and Caldari ships into Major fleet warfar alot more then they are now. So how are you going to do that.
Easy fix the glearing holes in Drone Modules/hardwiring and dmg rigs. In essons raise Drone dps to be on par with Projectiles and Lazers.
Fix BS missiles and there platforms. It's not rocket science punt punt.
And as a side note my ideal for puting drones on the Talos was so that it mite be used alot more then it is going to be. Talos and Naga just something to use till you can fly a Tornado or Oracle. And this time the Tornado totaly makes the Hybird ships look like pall shadows.
But I realy would have much less of a problem with the Talos being hybirds if the put missiles on the nage. I just dont what two times the worthless hybird ships.
It would at least have been better to have only 1 hybird ship and then something alse like ether a torp naga or a drone talos. I like alot of people mainly want varity.
i.e. If you dont like the coolaid in the glass cup "Talos" we have some coolaid in a plastic cup "Naga". See the problem here. There are more weapon systems in the game then just Guns or Hybirds! |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
23
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Posted - 2011.11.19 19:42:00 -
[839] - Quote
Gecko O'Bac wrote:Since there is a new version of pyfa, I messed around a bit with it to see if I could come up with something better than I put up in game... Seems I couldn't... Here's the fit, am I missing something?
[Naga, Naga fit]
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
1386 m/s top speed, 23.4k ehp (uniform spread), 715 dps on lvl 5 skills with CN antimatter, 725 with Javelin, 415 with Spike. That's without taking into account reload time, which will lower a little the dps. Even with named mods you can't lose the current router rig, since it'd require a 5% grid implant (3.10% grid needed actually -_-')
This is, of course, a fleet sniper fit. Tracking computer may or may not be necessary... A little bit of tracking helps I guess. One could substitute a hardener, but I guess it comes down more to taste than to an effective difference.
All in all doesn't seem that bad...
(Edit: with the tracking computer on, against an identical naga, MWDing at full speed perfectly transversal you get a top dps of around 600ish, at slightly over your optimal range. For more comparisons just import the fit into pyfa)
(Edit2: with optimal range script and CN iridium, you get a 150km optimal and 417 dps, more than spike without the useless range and the tracking malus. It's actually quite a good trade off)
First off if you only need 3.10% more grid replace the reactor control unit with a Power Diagnostic system it will give you the grid you need and more shields/cap/cap rechage at the same time.
Secondly Fail rails are still Fail rails this will not make it into sniping fleets becouse it's still fail rails and it's fail rails on a ship that cant hope to tank another BS at range. Sorry thats just the way it is. I did not make the ship or the game just puting some facts out there. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
23
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Posted - 2011.11.19 19:46:00 -
[840] - Quote
spawx wrote:Bethany Hawke wrote:Naga: I see why the reluctance with cruise (I would love it) but I can see why not - if the intended prey of the new ships are BS. If I want a rail platform I would pick the rokh over the naga. That means I would drop the hybrid from them all together and focus on torp. If you give them a +damage bonus, then it makes the raven look bad.So the only thing left, is to give them a range bonus. But what about giving them two? Flight time and velocity? Then they would become a "torp sniper" (ish). I would also give all torps 10% more range and take the range bonus off Raven/Widow (net no effect) and replace it with a straight +damage ontop of the +rof but then, I like missiles the raven IS bad compared to the other BSes so it shuld not be measured compared to caldari BSes. in fact they shuld also be boosted in pvp usefulness.
This is true the Raven needs two more Missile hard points and the cpu/grid to use them and Battle ship missiles need reworked to be usefull in pvp.
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