At their own expense.

This would only be worth it if you were an enemy of the party, rather than just a guy looking to get some ISK.

They aren't used much because the parties with the biggest incentive to use them have agreed to not use them via a handshake deal.

Nothing has shown their lack of use.

So: either they're useful as warfare tools and massively used, contrary to what you're claiming, or they're useless as warfare tools and not used, again contrary to what you're claiming. Your notion that they're both effective and unused is nonsensical.

Lead bullets are effective and unused, because people agreed to not use them.

Parties in war often make handshake deals with things that mutually hurt both sides. In this case, they agreed to not siphon each other.

Parties in war often make handshake deals with things that mutually hurt both sides. In this case, they agreed to not siphon each other.

GǪwhich everyone involved would ignore if they were actually useful GÇö thinking anything else is still laughably na+»ve, even more so in a game where such restrictions are trivial tracelessly to work around. And it still doesn't account for everyone else who have a strong incentive in hurting the moon holders.

By this twisted and backward logic, renters would not be able to exist because everybody would just gank them and steal everything they own with their alts.

with the current state of null sec http://i.imgur.com/yRX4f1D.png (based on blue standings) what chance does a small alliance/corp that wants to be independent of the big boys have in getting a foothold in null?

it looks like you have 3 choices at the moment join cfc/rus join N3 or buy a wizards hat and join provi block.

while i admit my knowledge of everything going on in null is somewhat limited every 1 seams to say the same thing N3 while still got a lot of fight in them is on the back-foot and in full retreat that blue doughnut is getting closer and closer to being complete.

small scale pvp is getting harder and harder to find always seams to be a 30 man fleet getting dropped by a 100 man fleet, and if/when the blue doughnut is complete you may as well say large scale pvp will die as well.

yes its in the nature of sandboxes for people to group together and form massive coalitions but is this really healthy for null sec?

GÇ£This logicGÇ¥ being the one you just invented rather than what I said, because what you're describing means you're taking out your own income. That would be like placing (supposedly effective) siphons on your own moons.

Bypassing the handshake to hurt your enemy Gëá bypassing the handshake to kick yourself in your own wallet.

So yes, it is a twisted and backwards logic and I have no idea where you got it from. I prefer my own underhanded, but entirely straight-forward logic.

Remove re-enforce timers. There were no re-enforce timers in WWI, WWII, Desert Storm or any other conflict you care to mention. You can either defend what you claim 24*7 or you cannot.

If you cannot defend what you claim without re-enforce timers, you shouldn't own it and smaller alliances have better opportunity to take it from you.

I suspect the whole notion of re-enforce timers got in as large nullsec blocs and their advocates dominating the CSM, pushed for this mechanic to extend their reach far beyond what they really can assert through force of actual might.

SOV needs a re-do, and doing away with re-enforce timers is a big part of it. IMHO.

It's the same thing.

You're basically dictating a double standard - which logically would not exist.

That's a case of not remembering why a thing exists in the 1st place. Ref timers are important because they from a break on the power of sizable groups to dominate everything by pure weight of numbers overnight. The provide a framework for conflicts (ie, we know this timer is up at this time, so we will form up for it).

The wars you mentioned weren't games, they were real and people didn't have a choice. In a game where people have a choice it just doesn't work and removing something put in place to correct serious problems of the past is begging for unintended consequences.

Ref timers are like gates (gates suck but without something like gates it would be way to easy to avoid fights given EVE game mechanics), a necessary evil that prevents worse results.

Remove re-enforce timers. There were no re-enforce timers in WWI, WWII, Desert Storm or any other conflict you care to mention. You can either defend what you claim 24*7 or you cannot.

If you cannot defend what you claim without re-enforce timers, you shouldn't own it and smaller alliances have better opportunity to take it from you.

I suspect the whole notion of re-enforce timers got in as large nullsec blocs and their advocates dominating the CSM, pushed for this mechanic to extend their reach far beyond what they really can assert through force of actual might.

SOV needs a re-do, and doing away with re-enforce timers is a big part of it. IMHO.

So is sov broken or is sov fine? I can't keep up....

Both, and neither.

Still not buying it. I think a mechanism where all alliances asserting SOV would need to do so 24x7 on their 'core' systems, before expanding outward to claim outlying systems. Today you have large blocs that assert wider dominance because re-enforce timers allow them to reposition forces beyond what they could 'really' have in reserve to defend 'home' systems, ostensibly from smaller alliances who would black ops in behind their lines and zap key assets.

Its a shame really, the whole notion of ongoing defense and proper expansion is messed up by re-enforce timers, and smaller alliances cannot really 'slip behind enemy lines' to wreak havoc, etc.

...
How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?

...
It gives you time to summon your guys so that you can muster up a proper fight. When otherwise it just comes down to numbers and timezones. And that's not a fun fight, I can tell you. That crap made me quit eve for a couple of years, it was genuinely that bad.

It would just be a WoW battleground writ large. And nullsec deserves more than to just be a PvP arena. There has to be incentive to build and grow, not just to conquer and burn.

Please note, I am not denying that there is an issue right now. There is, there really freaking is. But it's not something a "just take away XYZ" style solution can solve.

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?

11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?

In real life the lines mean something. In EVE "behind the lines" is Jita.

It's not like their are factories and lines of communication and stuff anyone actually cares about BEHIND the huge blob that is destroying everyhting in site lol.

How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?

Now I have heard it all.

Drastically reducing the income generated by a moon or even turning it off outright isn't a form of warfare?



Tippia, please.

Nullsec was horrid in those days because if you tried to cram more than a 100 people into a system, it fell over and died. These days, actual large-scale fights can be had and as a result, you need more people not to lose everything..

Why? I mean, yes, sov should have been addressed three years ago and it's a bit silly that it has been left alone for so long, but CCP has been distracted by various irrelevancies so what can you do? And that's more that the mechanics are an embarrassment than null itself.

GǪif by two you mean four, which is much the same as it has always been. Well, unless you mean actual alliances, in which case there are dozens, which is much the same as it has always been.