We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

Just man up and beat it to death with the nerf bat, like it so badly needs.

You know it's an ineffective nerf, everyone is telling you it's ineffective, so why waste your time and ours with pointless changes that don't deal with the problem.

its been about a week since he posted here .. like whats going on man..

Those ships are not balanced on the value, but at the supply, and way you can supply them.

Why you don't see fleets of pirate faction battleships, but only Higsec factions and FW ones?
Because you can easily put 1 fleet up, but when you loose it , it going to hard as hell to replace it, especially on the second whelp.

probably nothign .THey will not change anythign esle for hyperion. Now they have a hsort release cycle. Very little chance to implement player opinions on same scheduleed release. If anythign on the next mini release he might make a new thread with new things.

Implementing feature in a different way will probably be really hard based on player opinion with a short release cycle but you can come back to it the next one or something close. Data base change affecting ship balance should not need major rework time and should not need a different cycle for each iteration of a proposal.

3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)

Muninn: 720mm = 362 (22+22)
Muninn: 425mm = 432 (2+12)
Vaga: 425mm = 432 (2+18)
Vaga: 425mm = 396 (3+27) (Barrage)

Sac: HAMs = 406 (30)
Sac: Heavy = 294 (94)
Zealot: Pulse = 498 (11+5)
Zealot: Beam = 545 (23+10)

Cerb: HAMs = 487 (45)
Cerb: Heavy = 353 (141)
Eagle 250mm = 402 (41+15)
Eagle Neutron = 448 (5+6)

Deimos: Neutron = 560 (2+9)
Deimos: 250mm = 503 (18+22)

Ishtar: Garde 2 = 700 (41+18)
Ishtar: Bouncer 2 = 620 (72+48)
Ishtar: HH2 = 397
Ishtar: Ogre2 = 793
Ishtar: Hob2 = 248


Without worrying on tank, some notables.
Vaga canGÇÖt fit artillery, needs mods. Needs barrage. Munnin can fit 425s, but ... no?

Ishtar - it gets ALL the fittings in one ship. closeup DPS, superb long range, brutal close range using Ogres. It has a crapton of fitting! It does EVERYTHING in one ship.

If we fit ranged ammo or DPS ammo on any of the other ships it GIMPs certain aspects horribly. We cannot cross tank, we cannot cover any eventuality (frigates/cruisers and BS in one fitting). We can up the DPS 10-12% using faction ammo (something the Ishtar can only do a bit).

DPS comes at a cost for range on most of the ships. Blasters and auto cannon in particular. But its not 700 DPs to 793. It starts way lower and suffers from things like cap issues, falloff, damage lockin,

Can anyone see where the problems lie?

• The Munnin is atrocious - utter crap.
• ...
• The Vaga is just crap - weak and no dps.
• The Eagle needs some drones.
• Deimos is good.
• Zealot - perhaps some drones, some cap for sure.
• Sac is good.

Ishtar is down here. Its a class above every whip in every aspect. Tweaking it - get a grip CCP!

3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)

The issue with T2 missiles is, unless the target is MASSIVE, you're losing shedloads of damage and faction is more use.

Even though I appreciate the list and it supports claims for Ishtar being over the top, you should at least use T2 missiles. Either need to use longer range for less DPS or shorter range and crap application.

Cerbs were awesome until the RLML change. What a stooped change. 35 second reload time? What a joke.

Not trying to get everything here, just a flavour of the relationships. Drop to faction? Close on target and web/paint?

Or try flying a vaga? DPS is crap, range is crap, and its a one trick pony. The Cerb is good when in gangs. The vaga is something for idiots to fly.

The tradeoffs of the hulls make for the variety. DPS for range, applied DPS for the need to tackle / paint/ web ...

Or better yet - Fly a Munnin and laugh at the DPS at its highest and tracking that makes T2 missile application like a dream.

I fly vaga regularly, the hull is fine. Its a kiter, and one of the fastest ships in the game (cyna and orthus i think are others). im sorry you cant have 700dps vaga with 4k m/s with an 800dps tank. Get over it. Vaga shines as a skirmisher, get in, kill a couple people and get out. If you expect more, thats your problem.

If anything, acs and falloff need to be tweaked a smidge. The vaga hull is fine, minus cargo capacity.

Vaga is nto a good combination because brawlign bonus combined to speed do not sinergise. It is OKish at 2 scenarios. If i want to fly kite more the navy omen is superior (because it applies damage way way better and has sme speed). Tank bonus is a waste if you want to fly kite mode. If you are kiting you want to not take damage, if you are takign so much damage that you need a tank bonus you are doing it worn g or should not be kiting.

At end the orthus and navy omen takes more of the shine of the vagabond. One being the high end expensive option that is far superior, other a ship that is a third the price and somewhat better on the kite role.

Cerbs were awesome until the RLML change. What a stooped change. 35 second reload time? What a joke.