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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Drunk 'n' Disorderly
230
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Posted - 2014.07.30 03:41:00 -
[451] - Quote
I usually don't comment on these threads but those of you complaining about sentries are bad and should feel bad for whining about them on the forums. Think a little bit outside the box and you'd see that sentry ishtars do indeed have a hard counter. But I get that people would rather whine on the forums than think about how to play the game. It's unsurprising that the dude from Black Legion is one of maybe three people on this thread who actually understands the drawbacks to sentries.
In any case, I think this nerf is pretty level headed and appropriate, which is probably the only time I'll say that in a CCP Rise balancing thread. |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
248
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Posted - 2014.07.30 03:42:00 -
[452] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?
I'd feel better about a 8/7/4 tempest with falloff and rof bonuses tbh.
HAC changes look ok, though the Ishtar's is a very conservative change. Stil, see how it goes and fix it the following month X |
Rheba
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2014.07.30 03:49:00 -
[453] - Quote
Please do something about the sacrilege. 2 low less low slots than the zealot and its meant to be the tanky one? |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1905
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:19:00 -
[454] - Quote
Galphii wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest? I'd feel better about a 8/7/4 tempest with falloff and rof bonuses tbh. HAC changes look ok, though the Ishtar's is a very conservative change. Stil, see how it goes and fix it the following month
Nah 7/7/5
That would be sick.
Though keep damage bonus but I like the falloff bonus idea There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad. |
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
66
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:20:00 -
[455] - Quote
For the love of god, DO NOT LOSE this opportunity to save the Munnin.
Who knows when again you will do a HAC balance pass.
This ship is so damn pigeon-holed and basically, bad.
Just give it the Scythe Fleet treatment i.e. Dual Bonus. This will give the ship a much needed uniqueness, adaptability, viability beyond Alpha Arty Null-Fleets.
With launchers you will see its usage increase in High,Low And Null. It will become a great Bearing platform in Amarr/Sansha space.
It will see greater use in FW and Lowsec piracy.
It will provide the Minmatar race a 2nd T2 launcher platform, cause while youve given them Breacher-Talwar-Bellicose-ScyFl-Cyclone-Typhoon, only ONE T2 option exists i.e. Claymore.
Please - save the Munnin - give it dual bonus. Stop making it a bloated Rupture. The buff to speed is so out of place and does NOTHING to increase its attractiveness. |
kidkoma
Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective
8
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:22:00 -
[456] - Quote
If I were to ballence the ishtar, I would give it a 75 Mbit/sec bandwith.
For example, an Ishtar with three DDA's useing 3 guard 2's = 421dps with an engagement range of 41k
Where a Zealot with Heavy Pulse II's and scorch with 3 heat sinks has 456dps at 39.
Cutting it's bandwith to 75mbit/sec will bring it closer to what the other HAC's can do. Without killing it. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1905
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 04:33:00 -
[457] - Quote
this would be pretty cool if they did this to the munnin
Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed
slots: 5 high 4 mid 6 low There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1165
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:38:00 -
[458] - Quote
Trader Vinney wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Trader Vinney wrote:The Ishtar itself is not the whole issue it is also sentries. As a BS sized weapon system and a rate of fire at 4 seconds that is part of the reason it is overpowered. Other long range BS class weapons have a rate of fire from 9.5 to 40 seconds. This is constant applied DPS between targets. You also have the lack of reload time obviously for drones. Stepping the rate or fire up to someplace between Tachs and Howitzers may be something to put on paper. That would only grant them higher alpha... That would only grant them higher alpha if say the damage modifier is changed. Slower rate of fire does not automatically equate to higher alpha.
You didn't say their DPS would go down so I have to assume it would stay the same. |
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
94
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:41:00 -
[459] - Quote
The Muninn and Eagle both suffer from the same basic problem: they are evidently supposed to be "sniper" cruisers, but there just isn't really much reason to ever snipe in a cruiser. An attack battlecruiser hits harder from further, and at snipe ranges the sig/tracking advantages of medium turrets vs large are basically irrelevant.
I don't know what the solution is, but it really feels like both of these ships are trying to fill a niche that just doesn't exist. |
Trader Vinney
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:47:00 -
[460] - Quote
To the point of the Abaddon need for change possibility this may not be the ship itself but actually the weapon systems and as some have pointed out the tough fitting requirements for this ship. For instance has anyone noticed the lack of use when it comes to the Tachyon Beam Laser II? There is a reason for this and out of the 6 ships in the game that have bonuses to this weapon system only two of them can actually fit them without going over powergrid with just the guns.
APOC and Abaddon 8 T2 Tachs fit 101.81% PG Armageddon Navy 7 T2 Tachs fit 106.91% PG Nestor 5 T2 Tachs fit 118.78% PG Navy Apoc 8 T2 Tachs fit 97.19% PG Nightmare 4 T2 Tachs fit 73.73% PG
I am not saying that the Tach is the best option for these ships well because Scorch owns but just another thought since Battleships are in discussion.
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Trader Vinney
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:48:00 -
[461] - Quote
[/quote]
You didn't say their DPS would go down so I have to assume it would stay the same.[/quote]
Valid I did not state that either way.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8298
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:51:00 -
[462] - Quote
Trader Vinney wrote:To the point of the Abaddon need for change possibility this may not be the ship itself but actually the weapon systems and as some have pointed out the tough fitting requirements for this ship. For instance has anyone noticed the lack of use when it comes to the Tachyon Beam Laser II? There is a reason for this and out of the 6 ships in the game that have bonuses to this weapon system only two of them can actually fit them without going over powergrid with just the guns.
APOC and Abaddon 8 T2 Tachs fit 101.81% PG Armageddon Navy 7 T2 Tachs fit 106.91% PG Nestor 5 T2 Tachs fit 118.78% PG Navy Apoc 8 T2 Tachs fit 97.19% PG Nightmare 4 T2 Tachs fit 73.73% PG
I am not saying that the Tach is the best option for these ships well because Scorch owns but just another thought since Battleships are in discussion.
While you are more or less correct that Large Lasers have some fitting issues (in fact the Laser system needs a full rework imo), the situation we have right now is not really going to be solved with that.
Mostly because the Apocalypse and the Armageddon are performing acceptably well at present. The Abaddon does not, and while the issue lies in the guns, buffing them would also buff the Apoc, which could easily end up being overpowered afterward.
But in general I do agree with you, the fitting on those things is quite absurd. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1165
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 04:53:00 -
[463] - Quote
Trader Vinney wrote:To the point of the Abaddon need for change possibility this may not be the ship itself but actually the weapon systems and as some have pointed out the tough fitting requirements for this ship. For instance has anyone noticed the lack of use when it comes to the Tachyon Beam Laser II? There is a reason for this and out of the 6 ships in the game that have bonuses to this weapon system only two of them can actually fit them without going over powergrid with just the guns.
APOC and Abaddon 8 T2 Tachs fit 101.81% PG Armageddon Navy 7 T2 Tachs fit 106.91% PG Nestor 5 T2 Tachs fit 118.78% PG Navy Apoc 8 T2 Tachs fit 97.19% PG Nightmare 4 T2 Tachs fit 73.73% PG
I am not saying that the Tach is the best option for these ships well because Scorch owns but just another thought since Battleships are in discussion.
You forgot the Oracle which is bonused toward large energy turret and can fit them unless you have terrible skill. |
Liam Inkuras
Top Belt Heroes
1222
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Posted - 2014.07.30 05:12:00 -
[464] - Quote
Deimos cargo buff to 400 m3 please. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Trader Vinney
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.07.30 05:22:00 -
[465] - Quote
[/quote]
You forgot the Oracle which is bonused toward large energy turret and can fit them unless you have terrible skill.[/quote]
Oracle slipped my mind completely for sure and I like that freaking thing just been awhile since I have been in one good call.
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1241
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Posted - 2014.07.30 05:30:00 -
[466] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.
Well considering that they've been so much overused recently, nuking them out then slowly buffing them wouldn't hurt, but fair point :D
On the other hand, don't you think that nerfing them a bit more would help diversify the PvP landscape of the game when it comes to HACs? (Its not just about not nerfing things to the ground, its about balancing Ishtars to give players more reasons to use other HACs in PvP.)
About the changes, I feel like they are needed but a bit underwhelming. But again, I guess that its intended since you can make changes very quickly with the new release cycle.
This speed buff on the eagle got me thinking though... My corp and I always loved to use shield blaster ships, but its always been painfully hard, especially since the Naga's speed and agility has been heavily nerfed after crucible (granted, previous stats might have made the rail version too threatening). So my question is, don't you think that there would be room for a caldari blaster ship with a real shield tank ? I can of course find some gallente HAC (or Attack Battlecruiser) and fit it with shields, but the slot layout and bonuses aren't optimal nor really viable. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
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Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
51
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Posted - 2014.07.30 05:41:00 -
[467] - Quote
Ok CCP, listen:
Problem with Ishtars not cuase of their range or speed. Tbh problem not with Ishtars. Problem in sentry drones themselfs! Can you understand, that cruiser with LARGE weapon (and 5 sentry is a large weapon) just broken. Let zealot fit large pulses, why not? And check resualt. This is Ishtar. Tank like a HAC (sig+armor or shield( yeah, variability and flexibility), damage like BS, pretty immune to ECM.
So, what can you do? As i see 2 ways here (i you wont change sentry themselfs):
1) Make penalty to all crusiers while they fit sentry drones (like -30% damage (or 20) with sentry, becuase cruiser hull cant provide full support for sentry systems) 2) Change heavy drones bandwidth requirement to 20 and lower bandwidth ishtars/navy vexor/vexor to 100/100/65 (certainly it influences bigger quantity of the ships and they need a lit change)
Becuase it simple - if you nerf ishtars hard, most fleets will use domix or even slowcats. Sentry drones realy op for cruisers and pretty broken in fleet pvp. |
Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
274
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Posted - 2014.07.30 06:31:00 -
[468] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.
Someone said this already before but it needs repeating. You say that you are doing this and then there was not a single ship balancing change in Crius. You are not off to a good start. CCP never keeps these kinds of promises anyway and we have a decade long track record to prove it. At least make a meaningful change to Ishtar now because we are sure to be stuck with it at least until January. |
Adrie Atticus
the shadow plague The Bastion
203
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Posted - 2014.07.30 06:36:00 -
[469] - Quote
Good morning Rise & Fozzie, how's the weather?
Nice, nice...
Now back to work, fix sentries:
You need to be within 5000m of a sentry drone to issue commands to it.
PvE: not affected PvP: affected Ishtar: bombed |
QT McWhiskers
Hard Knocks Inc.
415
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:23:00 -
[470] - Quote
I have two ideas for the ishtar.
1. Decrease the bandwidth from 125 to 100. This way it can only deploy 4 sentries or heavies. (apply this change to vexor and vexor navy as well.)
2. Remove two mid slots and give it two low slots.
The first is simply a way to nerf the dps it can throw it to make the ship less desirable. The second would turn the ship into an armor tanker. Slower moving and more easily killable as it cant outrun most cruisers on field. |
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
902
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:27:00 -
[471] - Quote
Ok after 24 pages of whining and complaining i have come to one conclusion
People whine over everything and post some stupid solutions. Over 8 years the ishtar has always been a great ship and its ability to use all sorts have drones and wide variety of fits have made it perfect for almost any situation. On that note with the the extreme usefulness of it with sentries there is a logical solution.
Fitting / slots - Nothing wrong with these, there has never been anything wrong with these since the isthar was put into the game. Don't fix what isnt broke. Bandwidth - nothing wrong with it. nothing to change here.
Now what to do about the isthar.... The most whining comes about sentry drones. So what is the best solution? Adjust the tracking bonus on the isthar Adjust tracking on sentries
Maybe change the bonus to 3.5% on the ishtar for sentry tracking and lower sentry tracking speed by 3.5% also.
It's a nerf but not a nerf to uselessness. Sentries would become only really useful against BC / BS and CAPS leaving smaller ships to take on the ishtar itself.
Or if that doesnt work. just a 3.5% to sentry range and tracking, this would still limit the range and keep targets to the larger variety and sniper bs would be able to take them on.
However with the reduction to 5% i do think you will see a visible change in all aspects of combat.
Remember the goal is balance, not nerf the ship out of the game just because you dont like it.
/ishtar pilot since 2008 |
Azure Rayl
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:41:00 -
[472] - Quote
Why not drop the ishtar's drone bandwidth to 100mbit/sec . Nothing else would need to be changed then :P |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
22701
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:42:00 -
[473] - Quote
making the ishtar slower is really against the idea of HACs being fast and versatile. I don't mind the tracking bonus reduction but speed reduction really goes against what HACs should be, especially when it comes to Minmatar and Gallente ships.
I did hope that the Vagabond would get a damage INCREASE, given the fact that 3 gyros still give it less than 600 DPS. (At least for me it does.) this is a bad thing IMO due to the fact that other HACs can deal at least 20% more DPS at a longer range than the Vagabond, which seems to make it basically one of the lowest DPS and shortest range HACs in existence currently.
take for example the Ishtar. with its 100KM targeting range and extremely long drone control range which goes beyond its targeting range when fitted with 2 drone control range augmentors and your Gardes can do over 700 DPS at more than twice the falloff range of the Vagabond and Bouncers deal over 600 DPS at 4x longer.
And don't get me started on the range that Heavy Missiles get with the Cerberus. Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
I like to gank it, gank it!
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Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
83
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:43:00 -
[474] - Quote
A simple test to know if enormous drawback is working as intended. If tomorrow they reduce sentry drone EHP by 50%, would you still be using them? |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:44:00 -
[475] - Quote
The Ishtar is currently so overpowered that there are pretty much only three reasons to ever fly any other non frigate subcap:
1. Cost. Its 200m and doesn't insure well. 2. SP. You need a ton to fly it effectively. 3. You need a ship with cloaking, ewar, or tackle bonuses.
Other than that, Ishtar is king.
The extreme amounts of SP needed for the Ishtar is also a real problem. Most ships cap out in effectiveness after you invest a few million SP, the Ishtar does not. You can easily dump 20m SP into Ishtar related skills and still have room for significant improvement. A great example of this is exploration, it can scan down and then run 10/10s by itself.....if you have all V probing skills to scan down 1/80 complexes in an unbonused ship. |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
22701
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:45:00 -
[476] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:A simple test to know if enormous drawback is working as intended. If tomorrow they reduce sentry drone EHP by 50%, would you still be using them? I would because range. Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
I like to gank it, gank it!
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Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
456
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:55:00 -
[477] - Quote
The Vagabond continues to be a **** kiter with only a Niche for super linked 100MN fits or killing bads.
Drop Shield boost bonus for second falloff bonus TIA. |
QT McWhiskers
Hard Knocks Inc.
415
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Posted - 2014.07.30 07:59:00 -
[478] - Quote
Azure Rayl wrote:Why not drop the ishtar's drone bandwidth to 100mbit/sec . Nothing else would need to be changed then :P
Other than gimping the DPS down quite a bit. All level 5 with 2 dda do 621 with garde 2. You take away 1 garde and it does 497. Thats 124 dps taken away. A fleet of 30 ishtars lose 3720 dps. This is a significant hit.
This also is a soft nerf to the ishtar making the ship only slightly less desirable while at the same time removing the ability for smaller numbers of ishtars to accomplish what they were once used to. Still a powerful ship, just not as powerful. |
Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
51
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Posted - 2014.07.30 08:11:00 -
[479] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:Ok after 24 pages of whining and complaining i have come to one conclusion People whine over everything and post some stupid solutions. Over 8 years the ishtar has always been a great ship and its ability to use all sorts have drones and wide variety of fits have made it perfect for almost any situation. On that note with the the extreme usefulness of it with sentries there is a logical solution. Fitting / slots - Nothing wrong with these, there has never been anything wrong with these since the isthar was put into the game. Don't fix what isnt broke. Bandwidth - nothing wrong with it. nothing to change here. Now what to do about the isthar.... The most whining comes about sentry drones. So what is the best solution? Adjust the tracking bonus on the isthar Adjust tracking on sentries Maybe change the bonus to 3.5% on the ishtar for sentry tracking and lower sentry tracking speed by 3.5% also. It's a nerf but not a nerf to uselessness. Sentries would become only really useful against BC / BS and CAPS leaving smaller ships to take on the ishtar itself. Or if that doesnt work. just a 3.5% to sentry range and tracking, this would still limit the range and keep targets to the larger variety and sniper bs would be able to take them on. However with the reduction to 5% i do think you will see a visible change in all aspects of combat. Remember the goal is balance, not nerf the ship out of the game just because you dont like it. /ishtar pilot since 2008 So... Large weapon on cruiser size is ok? Well, i want large pulses on zealot. PS: Medium sentry is a realy good idea.
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Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
239
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Posted - 2014.07.30 08:11:00 -
[480] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:CCP Rise wrote: "Battleships are not in a good place, you crazy Rise" - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer's insults he mentioned MWD cap use on BS being a problem which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.
Keep it comin
You're going about this in completely the wrong way dude. You can't say that battleships are okay within the class, as battleships are designed to be versatile and cheap enough to engage other kinds of fleet comps. They aren't either of these things. Its goddamn crazy that a tengu costs as much to buy and fit out as an abaddon, for instance. I wrote this really long post about why battleships need boosting or making cheaper, but it's gotten lost because CCP's forums are terrible. Tl;DR, battleships have and will never exist within a vaccum, and in the current meta they are goddamned terrible and anyone who uses them in a fleet is an idiot. They need buffing, and making cheaper. inb4 ye olde 50 mil isk domi and laser geddons |
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