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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
rsantos
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
12
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:53:00 -
[211] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).
Where's the problem?
I blitz The Blockade, Level 4 (DED) with a shield isthar ... how about that! Isthar thanks almost every rat with ease! Unless you rat semi-afk
http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=Blockade4dd
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Blueclaws
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
4
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:58:00 -
[212] - Quote
Fishbone wrote:Novel idea
If someone wants to deploy sentries, lock the ship in place beside the drones, that way you no longer get these huge chains of drones that are abandoned based on the flow of battle. Wonder how many people would actually field ishtars if they were forced to sit with their sentry drones. Heaven forbid you help lock a ship into a specific role, like the ishtar was designed for.
Would be simple, you have the ground work already in place. Look at Cyno's - they are -100% speed, and unable to really do anything other than defend itself while the cyno is lit. Sentry drones deployed basicly equals a lit cyno, if that makes sense.
Just my 0.02 isk.
Interesting idea. How about just reduce sentry control range dramatically? |
Cherry Yeyo
23
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:59:00 -
[213] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.
These are no downsides at all. After every single battle involving sentry carriers or dominix or ishtars over the last year there is a big blob of sentries left behind. People are not killing them and cannot stop to shoot 750 drones while their dps is raining down on you.
Spreading out before dropping is modus operandi, they are not easiliy bombed away. The cost of leaving them behind is negligible. |
Sixx Spades
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
187
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:01:00 -
[214] - Quote
Here's a simple change that Theta has been talking about.
Ishtar- Drone Bandwidth: 100 (-25) Hull Bonus: Reduces Heavy Drone Bandwidth down to 20
In effect, you keep your 5 Heavy Drones and bring down total Sentry Drones to 4. Pair that up with the tracking and speed adjustment and it'd fall more in line with other HACs. Using a weapon as a deterrent in a diplomatic situation is only viable when you have proven that you have deployed it in the past and are willing to use it in the future. |
Mr Rive
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
49
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:02:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: "Battleships are not in a good place, you crazy Rise" - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer's insults he mentioned MWD cap use on BS being a problem which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.
Keep it comin
You're going about this in completely the wrong way dude. You can't say that battleships are okay within the class, as battleships are designed to be versatile and cheap enough to engage other kinds of fleet comps. They aren't either of these things. Its goddamn crazy that a tengu costs as much to buy and fit out as an abaddon, for instance.
I wrote this really long post about why battleships need boosting or making cheaper, but it's gotten lost because CCP's forums are terrible.
Tl;DR, battleships have and will never exist within a vaccum, and in the current meta they are goddamned terrible and anyone who uses them in a fleet is an idiot. They need buffing, and making cheaper. |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
49
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:02:00 -
[216] - Quote
I don't like those proposed changes.
Ishtar will still be the king of the HAC and everything (this ship can apply more damage than an Apocalypse at all but the most extreme of range). 10m/s to the Eagle won't change a thing. I don't know what to think about the Munnin rebalance, it might make it relavent but I'm not sure, it seem too little a buff.
I wouldn't say that the BS are perfectly ballanced, the Tempest is terrible. I have a mixed opinions about the Rokh, the fact that a shield tanked Hyperion is often better seems odd. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
643
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:02:00 -
[217] - Quote
Ugly Eric wrote: Name any other cruiser that can get a BS amount of DPS to BS kind of ranges with almost frigate kind of tracking while doing 2.45 kilometers a second and STILL having around 60k ehp.
Show me that fitting.
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Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:04:00 -
[218] - Quote
Its not hard to balance Ishtars. Limit their drone connection range. So they have to stay near their sentries in order to stay connected to them. This will eliminate the current meta of dropping sentries and retreating away. If the ship has to stay close to its drones, it reduces their mobility which makes them easier to kill.
20km range max. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
744
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:05:00 -
[219] - Quote
rsantos wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).
Where's the problem? I blitz The Blockade, Level 4 (DED) with a shield isthar ... how about that! Isthar thanks almost every rat with ease! Unless you rat semi-afk http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=Blockade4dd
bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Didn't they used to recommend a heavy tanked BS for that one?
NERF! NERF! NERF! GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
4329
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:05:00 -
[220] - Quote
I'm heading out of the office for the day, back tomorrow with more on this.
Fun to be back on F&I. @ccp_rise |
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Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Natural 20 Shinjiketo
4
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:08:00 -
[221] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything. If you read the text you quoted you will see that I said battleships as a whole getting used isn't what I said was in a good place, rather that battleships are in a pretty good place relative to other battleships. Also, even though you've been very unlucky not to see them at all, I can assure you they are used for things. Yea they might be all within the same "usability" as other battleships but battleships aren't anything special either
I think its awful that battleships require the use of a heavy capacitor booster or be useless entirely, many gun boats especially the ones whose guns use capacitor have massive capacitor problems to begin with. |
Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
66290
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:09:00 -
[222] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.
But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
sten mattson
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
73
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:10:00 -
[223] - Quote
weird idea:
maybe make sentries follow the mothership and shoot its target while moving? i.e they always follow the ishtar while shooting its primary
that way the ishtar will always be close to its drones and he will have to care about tracking again IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
643
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:11:00 -
[224] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along. But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside.
Which makes you completely vulnerable to frigate wings if you are pushed out of the sentry range.
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3406
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:12:00 -
[225] - Quote
Why isn't anyone discussing Eagle changes, is it because no one cares about Eagles. Oh god. |
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
92
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:12:00 -
[226] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.
Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.
Consider the Ishtar in the context of battleship-class sentry drone boats like the Dominix and Rattlesnake: they all have identical sentry drone damage bonuses (7.5 effective drones). The only other place you see smaller hulls fielding that kind of battleship-level DPS is attack battlecruisers, but those have thinner tanks than battleships without much of a sig radius advantage. The Ishtar gets a significant sig radius advantage over a battleship and still has the slots, resists and fitting to mount a solid tank. I can't think of any other ship in the game that has that combination of features, and this nominal damage application nerf isn't going to change that. It might make the Dominix look better compared to the Ishtar (bigger and slower, but slightly better sentry range), but the Ishtar will still put the other HACs to shame in many contexts.
Why not just reduce the Ishtar's drone damage/hitpoints bonus from 10% to 7.5%? That gives it a ~9% DPS nerf, which puts its theoretical long-range damage output right in line with other high-DPS HACs like the Deimos. You'd then have to decide what to do about the Vexor Navy Issue, but given that hull's much weaker tank, you might be fine leaving it as-is and letting it fall into the glass cannon niche like the attack battlecruisers. |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:14:00 -
[227] - Quote
sten mattson wrote:weird idea:
maybe make sentries follow the mothership and shoot its target while moving? i.e they always follow the ishtar while shooting its primary
that way the ishtar will always be close to its drones and he will have to care about tracking again
Nah, rather the Ishtar have to remain in range to stay connected. Say 20km max or it loses connection with the sentries. Make their scoop/return range 10km. |
Aareya
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
25
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:14:00 -
[228] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.
What happened to the Gila then? (choices in drone was reduced) And, more importantly: When can we expect carriers to be able to field fighter bombers?
I think you have something here. Twitter:-á-á @AareyaEVE |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
616
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:14:00 -
[229] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Mizhir wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along. But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside. Which makes you completely vulnerable to frigate wings if you are pushed out of the sentry range. if only sentry range wasn't enormous |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
643
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:15:00 -
[230] - Quote
Taleden wrote:Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
725
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:17:00 -
[231] - Quote
we could just remove sentry drones altogether. they're silly and hard to balance. |
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Natural 20 Shinjiketo
4
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:18:00 -
[232] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:we could just remove super capitals altogether. they're silly and hard to balance. ftfy |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4050
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:19:00 -
[233] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along. But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside.
Perhaps the solution is to increase the size (but not bandwidth) of sentry drones. Sentries taking up 50 m3 of space would severely limit the number of sentries a drone ship may utilize. Suddenly Ishtars are 1 set of Sentries, 1 Set of heavies.
Food for thought, not necessarily a good idea (and may require balancing the drone bay of other drone boats).
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Tyrus Tenebros
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
35
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:19:00 -
[234] - Quote
Amarr HACs I like the position of the sacrilege/zealot. The sacrilege in particular is in a really good place right now. The zealot has always been a good combination of mobility and projection and that hasn't really changed either.
So with that as an idea of a base:
Gallente HACs
Deimos: It cries out to have a utility high returned to it. Cross-referencing the sacri, which is a brick and has high cap strength, the deimos wants to be the fast-attack solo version of the fleet oriented sacrilege. To do that, it needs the nos back! That simple tweak would legitimize the deimos as a solid small-gang ship, particularly with a bit more base cap.
Alternative to base stats tweak, if you want to get more adventurous, small tweaks to cap batteries to make them fit better. (actually, it might work as is, see the spoiler below, but I'd prefer a 1600mm plate on this fit).
I envision a solo fit along these lines, resistant to neuts but requiring careful attention to micromanage:
[Deimos, SoloPassiveCapLife] 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Medium Diminishing Power Drain I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Valkyrie II x5
The speed difference with the sacrilege is already sufficient to differentiate the ships roles.
this way the vigilant is positioned as a bricktanked, cap-booster using ship, and the deimos as a different style and use of slots.
Ishtar: Remove the sentry role. With the buff to heavy drones, it's no longer necessary to "fix" the ishtar's damage projection with a sentry role.
There's a couple of options once you've done this:
1) Continue with the stratification of drone tiers and give it bonuses to medium drones only. In this case the gall cruiser bonus could be "7.5% bonus to medium drone optimal, tracking, and speed" and "10% bonus to medium drone damage" and HAC skill would be "+5km range" and "5% bonus to medium drone damage" (or 5% pending the exact power balance you want here). This makes it competitive with the gila without creating an obvious winner
2) Make the ishtar's bonuses to medium and heavy, respectively, giving it a broad range of options but not a particular specialist.
This would remove the sentry aspect of the ishtar, but would still make it able to project damage in fleets due to heavies and meds being a bit faster now (~1.8km/s on gecko?) and have the hope of recovering its drones still. Kiting is still feasible, particularly through the use of medium drones, if that route is taken.
In both cases, Eos then retains the heavy bonus, and dominix is stripped of the bonus to Heavy drones and retains only the bonus to sentries (making it a battleship instead of a solopwnmobile)
Minmatar HACs
Muninn is a victim of the meta. It "should" be a competitive boat in mid-range HAC fleets but the projection of scorch overshadows arty a bit, and because of the last few years, people are kinda played out on artymuninn fleets I suppose. It does really lack in the solo department, not having the raw dps of the vaga or the tank/projection/application of the sacrilege. Perhaps the Optimal bonus should be converted to Optimal AND falloff. Then it'd be distinctly better than the vagabond at LR atrillery application, while remaining a slower, less kiting style of boat due to base stats and slot layout.
Vagabond... needs the mids need to be able to be MWD/XLASB/LSE/Disruptor without fitting mods and a full rack of 220s, that might be the fastest way to fix it. More damage projection (the TE and falloff buffs massively improved it, and then the re-nerfed TEs hit it the hardest when they landed, perhaps in the form of a further increased falloff bonus, or a falloff+tracking bonus, especially now that it's in direct competition to RLML boats, particularly the cerb, which basically has it beat hands down in almost all situations.
Alternatively,
Caldari HACs Cerberus is also in a pretty good place. I think it has (more of) the sort of projection and precision in the RLML configuration that the Vagabond wants to have. The HAM version is certainly interesting, and I'm not quite certain that the community hasn't just not caught on to how to use extreme range HAMs yet, as the on-paper stats certainly seem viable (particularly in a Claymore-Linked gang with Speed+Res links running). I see HACs as a class running MWD+some mods with good cap stability (but possibly lower base cap?). As harsh as it is being in-between the extremely cheap Cruisers and the much more EHP-blessed battlecruisers, the HACs having the "advanced technology" advantage in capacitor, sensor strength, sig bonus, etc., is perfect... keeping them in this niche is fine. Bumping the Cerbs cap just a tiny bit more so it's stable running, say, 2 active mids and the MWD (i.e. permatank and permanrun) would place it in a really solid class of kiting that the game has lacked w
The Eagle needs a 7.5% damage bonus in place of the current 5%, a base speed buff (already included), and MUCH better cap life. That should bring DPS up to be in line with cerb, respecting that rail tracking is "worse" than HAM tracking. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
616
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:19:00 -
[235] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Taleden wrote:Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range. i, too, cite my ratting setups when discussing pvp balance |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1637
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:19:00 -
[236] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Rek Seven wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along. Have you considered changing sentries so that they keep up with and orbit the ship that deploys them? This would effectively turn them into a turret and would allow a pursuer to chase the ship down without it being a suicide run. perhaps add a new type of sentry drone .. called mobile gundrones or something along those lines... make ishtar damage bonus tied too them instead .. reduce their dps and range a little .. compared too the current sentries..
Why not just change sentries? It would solve a lot of problems and it makes sense when you think about it... We have combat drones that operate away from the ship, and sentry drones that act as shipboard turrets. +1 |
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
92
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:21:00 -
[237] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Taleden wrote:Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.
Do your Oracle's guns track as well, especially when the ship itself is moving, compared to the perfectly stationary sentry drones? Can you tune damage types in your Oracle? Do jams, damps and TDs mitigate your Oracle's damage application? |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:21:00 -
[238] - Quote
Make drone ship also lose connection to its drones/sentries if jammed by ECM and/or Sensor Damps. That on top of a max range to maintain active connection to drones/sentries would balance sentries and drone boats all around. |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
63
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:21:00 -
[239] - Quote
Cherry Yeyo wrote:CCP Rise wrote:This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. With all due respect, this is your solo play and lack of large fleet experience talking here. 120 Ishtars drop bouncers and run away, kite out to 100-120km going over 2k m/s on the nano shield fit. They only die if the FC screws up really bad and if they DO get in trouble just disengage and run away. The armor fit with a full rack of damps in the mids is even more ridiculous. These fits sacrifice zero dps for their amazing speed, sig tank and utility. Nothing ever has been more ridiculous that the current ishtar in a large fleet. You cant have a solo wtfpwnmobile and not expect 0.0 groups to abuse the hell out of it.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
643
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:24:00 -
[240] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Taleden wrote:Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range. i, too, cite my ratting setups when discussing pvp balance
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting/PVP hybrid (not the weapon system) Ishtar and my pure PVP Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.
Happy now? |
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