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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
13886
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:02:06 -
[421] - Quote
People that know me know I generally oppose things like this. I think there are unintended consequences CCP doesn't take into account, and moves like this take EVE further away from it's core principles and move it more towards the "meh" most of the mmo world is. I'm even generally opposed to small incremental changes like this , even if it isn't earth shattering, it's going in the wrong direction.
I can't work up a whole bunch of hate for this idea though. The SP gain is super small and at least its' not a direct isk/wealth injection (even though skill points do have more value now). It helps people who actually play the game progress a bit faster skillwise without (IMO) going full on "grind for XP" like normal mmos do.
So while I won't be standing on any chairs cheering about this, it could have been worse (it cold have been millions of isk instead of 10k sp) so I can say I'm ok with it.
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Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan
123
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:05:23 -
[422] - Quote
After reading some (but no where near all) of this soon-to-be-threadnaught, I'd like to look at some of the key points that have been brought up against this idea:
- Devaluation of SP (some would say further devaluation, after all, skill trading devalued it too). This ties in with other points.
- Feeling left out if you don't do your dailies. SO MUCH THIS. This is what sucks about dailies, you feel like you have to do them or you're missing out on important progression or payouts. One poster took it to an extreme with examples of ratting in mining ships, doing industry jobs from titans, etc. I cannot stress this factor enough, with dailies, you have to do them. If you don't, you're missing out on whatever it is the daily gets you. I absolutely HATE the idea of adding dailies to EVE, but I'd still end up doing them because after all, I'd be missing out on (in this case) SP if I didn't. Much as I hated skill trading, that is at least ignorable, as you have to spend isk on it (or buy is with cash then spend the isk), so there's a consideration of is it worth the cost. For dailies? Nope, no such consideration, not really. Sure you can try to justify to yourself not to do it, but in the end if you don't, you're still missing out on that extra SP.
- What happened to the only source of SP being training (aside from the occasional gift SP from CCP for severe downtimes or whatnot). This game had the appeal of having a passive real time training system, one that you could not grind like xp to race to "max level." This concept was core to the game, it took a serious blow with skill trading, which at least didn't create extra SP, and in fact created a significant SP sink, both in diminishing returns, and the occasional lossmail with injectors in cargo. However that SP sink doesn't justify adding in daily SP grinds. Not by a longshot.
Seriously CCP, don't do this, EVE does not need dailies. It should not have dailies. As others have said, dailies are the bane of many an MMO. Many came to this game in part because it did not have dailies.
Just say no to dailies. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2451
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:06:08 -
[423] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Johan Civire wrote:Hehe this is going great ccp making eve in casual farming mmorpg. I know what you`re doing ccp. And thats nothing good. Making the game more arcade then making it simple. Then nerf the hardcore stuff. Add game shop. Selling (boosting packs and currency). Then add daily`s? whats next quest system you need to do to get some (epic item load?)
Good job. A new world of warcraft its more eve of spacecraft....
Also if you`re on this track of gaming. Why not add (epic crates) and you need to spend keys to open it And to get keys you need to use real money. CCP really every mmorpg facebook game have this add this to people love to gamble and so.
Also add some Increase real time SP booster packs. Like +20 for 2 days or so. People love to spend money on those things.
Yeah lets kill eve right now. It actually has made me regret having paid for my 12 month sub already.
The one good thing about the timing of this announcement is that it is BEFORE I resubscribed all my accounts for the year. I'm not saying I am going to quit, but I was debating whether to resubscribe all of my accounts. I think this may be a good time to trim down to a more manageable number of accounts. The prospect of doing daily quests on 21 characters is enough to make me want to gouge my eyes out.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Cajun Waffles
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:06:22 -
[424] - Quote
Elinara Yamamoto wrote:Cajun Waffles wrote:So for some reason having more Skill Points would make flying in space less meaningful to you lol? I find that interesting.... Could you explain please? When content is what we create by building and blowing things up in space but you feel skill points is somehow a direct correlation to content and meaningfulness... May I ask what content that is? To create these skillpoints you will have to do forced tasks that do not correlate to what you would normally be doing. Which means you get FOMO if you do not do them (some of us do) and if you do get these extra SPs, you will do less of what you want to do. Like creating content. Like PvP pewpews which many of us agree are plenty fun. Direct correlation between SP and content, and less meaningfulness by these extra SP, did I explain that to your contentment?
No I'm sorry I still disagree. Basically you are stating you are "forced" which is inaccurate. Doing less of what you want to do? Again killing one NPC or whatever the daily may be is optional. Don't do it. It creates content for this that wish to do it. Just like content people do to purchase skill injectors. |
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan
123
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:14:16 -
[425] - Quote
Cajun Waffles wrote:Elinara Yamamoto wrote:Cajun Waffles wrote:So for some reason having more Skill Points would make flying in space less meaningful to you lol? I find that interesting.... Could you explain please? When content is what we create by building and blowing things up in space but you feel skill points is somehow a direct correlation to content and meaningfulness... May I ask what content that is? To create these skillpoints you will have to do forced tasks that do not correlate to what you would normally be doing. Which means you get FOMO if you do not do them (some of us do) and if you do get these extra SPs, you will do less of what you want to do. Like creating content. Like PvP pewpews which many of us agree are plenty fun. Direct correlation between SP and content, and less meaningfulness by these extra SP, did I explain that to your contentment? No I'm sorry I still disagree. Basically you are stating you are "forced" which is inaccurate. Doing less of what you want to do? Again killing one NPC or whatever the daily may be is optional. Don't do it. It creates content for this that wish to do it. Just like content people do to purchase skill injectors. While no, technically you're not forced to do anything, there is a very strong sense of missing out on the reward if you don't do it. In that regard, many people *will* feel forced to do the dailies in order to get their SP.
Deny it all you want, but people will feel forced, even though they're not actually being forced. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
120
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:16:09 -
[426] - Quote
Relevant. It's the Skinner Box monster again in its most obvious and annoying form, but it's not the first time it's reared its head in this game.
Even the mission grind is interesting and engaging than this thing.
A signature :o
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27304
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:16:39 -
[427] - Quote
Cajun Waffles wrote:No I'm sorry I still disagree. Basically you are stating you are "forced" which is inaccurate. Doing less of what you want to do? Again killing one NPC or whatever the daily may be is optional. Don't do it. It creates content for this that wish to do it. Just like content people do to purchase skill injectors. It does not create any content. All it does is penalise some people for not doing engaging in the most sub-par (pre-existing) content the game has on offer.
You are forced because you are faced with a choice between being stupid and being bored. One is significantly suboptimal (no, having your GÇ£training dayGÇ¥ be 24 hours long rather than 20 is not a small difference, and that's the best case scenario GÇö for some, it'll be 24 hours compared to 18h); the other requires you to do something you do not want to do. It's the same nonsense as with the training skills GÇö you were not GÇ£forcedGÇ¥ to get those either; it was GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ very very very stupid not to, and the argument that you had an option was as ignorant then as it is now. In the end, being forced to train them was a huge part of why they had to go.
An option to make a dumb choice is not an option GÇö it's a pathetic excuse for incompetent design, doubly so when this non-option doesn't improve the actual game in any way.
Jenn aSide wrote:So while I won't be standing on any chairs cheering about this, it could have been worse (it cold have been millions of isk instead of 10k sp) so I can say I'm ok with it.
If the positive side is that it could have been worse, then it's not something you should ever be ok with. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
634
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:19:17 -
[428] - Quote
I saw this in an old South Park episode, "Make Love, Not Warcraft". I remermber Cartman had a similar plan about grinding 2 XP per boar.
Perhaps, CCP Rise has now become CCP Cartman? lol :D |
Ruby Gnollo
4
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:19:27 -
[429] - Quote
Kara Burnett wrote:Please no daily quests. Or daily login rewards or whatever daily mechanic you can steal from generic mmos.
A beauty of EvE always was that it lacked those silly little tricks trying to force you to log in or do menial tasks you don't care about. Don't throw that away.
I really love that unique concept : the game where people not playing it have no disavantage against those who do play it.
Hoooo, please CCP, do not reward people flying ships instead of not playing the game as it's always been designed not te be played, including :
- Stacking scammers in Jita - Stacking industrial & market alts to manipulate prices - Running afk alts to help gank Evil Newbies Schemes in HS - Playing forever logged off caps alts - Playing as many alts as your billion ISKs worth of PLEXes allows you to handle
Please CCP, forget about the whole flying spaceships concept : please let Eve be a place of evil scamming politicians like in real life for those failed there who wouldn't even find a place in a coffee shop otherwise. Please, CCP, shall New Eden never be a game meant to be played, just to be talked about. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
13886
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 02:33:04 -
[430] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[quote=Cajun Waffles]No I'm sorry I still disagree. Basically you are stating you are "forced" which is inaccurate.
If the positive side is that it could have been worse, then it's not something you should ever be ok with.
Yet I am ok with it. No one is more skeptical of these kinds of changes than I am (not even you), no one hates the idea of EVe being like other games or CCP selling out than I do.
But as I see it, while it might be not perfectly keeping with what the game is, the amount of gain is so small it's basically inconsequential. |
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Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan
123
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:37:11 -
[431] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tippia wrote:[quote=Cajun Waffles]No I'm sorry I still disagree. Basically you are stating you are "forced" which is inaccurate.
If the positive side is that it could have been worse, then it's not something you should ever be ok with. Yet I am ok with it. No one is more skeptical of these kinds of changes than I am (not even you), no one hates the idea of EVe being like other games or CCP selling out than I do. But as I see it, while it might be not perfectly keeping with what the game is, the amount of gain is so small it's basically inconsequential. The gain is not small or inconsequential. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27304
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 02:40:14 -
[432] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Yet I am ok with it. No one is more skeptical of these kinds of changes than I am (not even you), no one hates the idea of EVe being like other games or CCP selling out than I do.
But as I see it, while it might be not perfectly keeping with what the game is, the amount of gain is so small it's basically inconsequential. Again, it turns a 24-hour training day into 20 hours at the top end; into 18 hours at the low end. A potential 30% increase in training speed is not an inconsequential gain.
If they want to speed up people's acquisition of skills, then they can do that. That is not a sufficient or sane reason to do it retardedly. But of course, that's not the intent behind this idiocy, and penalising players that much for not making CCP's stats look good is an absolutely horrid and pathetically desperate design no matter what. |
Bobb Bobbington
Bros Before Holes The Devils' Rejects
269
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:40:39 -
[433] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tippia wrote:[quote=Cajun Waffles]No I'm sorry I still disagree. Basically you are stating you are "forced" which is inaccurate.
If the positive side is that it could have been worse, then it's not something you should ever be ok with. Yet I am ok with it. No one is more skeptical of these kinds of changes than I am (not even you), no one hates the idea of EVe being like other games or CCP selling out than I do. But as I see it, while it might be not perfectly keeping with what the game is, the amount of gain is so small it's basically inconsequential.
But that's the thing! It doesn't even matter what the reward is, it conditions players to log in, shoot a rat, and log off again until they burn themselves out. It could be the smallest reward but people will feel compelled to log in and get it and feel like they're missing something when they don't, eventually turning the players away from the game as they become fed up with the cycle.
This is a signature.
It has a 25m signature.
No it's not a cosmic signature.
Probably.
Btw my corp's recruiting.
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Gerhard Stringfellow
Fisherbody Trading Company
92
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:41:37 -
[434] - Quote
Ruby Gnollo wrote:Kara Burnett wrote:Please no daily quests. Or daily login rewards or whatever daily mechanic you can steal from generic mmos.
A beauty of EvE always was that it lacked those silly little tricks trying to force you to log in or do menial tasks you don't care about. Don't throw that away. I really love that unique concept : the game where people not playing it have no disavantage against those who do play it.
I agree. This is basically introducing grinding to EvE.
Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear
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KQarberroh
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:42:17 -
[435] - Quote
I dont think that this will get the meaningful gameplay that you want. A better idea would be to tie it to something more substantial than shooting a single npc.
You created this Opportunities system to help out new players and get them to explore new things. Maybe you could tie some free SP (100, 150 SP) every time you complete an opportunity challnge for the first time. This way new players get a boost for doing things and they are encouraged to stay out in space doing more things, not just shoot a single npc.
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Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
127
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:43:40 -
[436] - Quote
Delilah Albertis wrote:With more SP coming through more avenues, injector prices will adjust accordingly. The market price on a brand new item is not very ideal to base a long term metric off of. PLEX is an astounding example of that but that's an entirely different can of worms. PLEX-based SP-farming has a break even price for a skill injector of about 0.53 PLEX. Prices have so far been higher and could fall to about this level due to CCP dumping SP on the market with "dailies". But unless CCP dumps so much extra SP on the market that the entire SP demand can be filled from it, prices will hold at roughly this level ... eventually. If the price falls below the production cost of a SP farm, then SP farming stops, leading to unfulfilled demand (once the stored up SP is depeleted) and prices are forced back up again.
So, one injector will cost more than about 0.53 PLEX. For a newbie, one injector delivers 500k SP, that's 1.06 microPLEX per SP. The proposed 10,000 SP for a rat kill are hence worth 10.6 milliPLEX.
If you kill a belt rat every 22 hours, then in 30 days you will earn 0.347 PLEX - at a minimum (considering newbie SP and break even injector prices). Assume I sit in Jita, need to jump to a different system, find a belt rat, kill it and jump back to Jita. I probably need 5-10 minutes for that. So maybe six hours total in those 30 days.
So the dumbest thinkable PVE activity in EVE - a JIta belt rat run - will net me no less than 0.058 PLEX per hour. At current PLEX prices that's about 60M ISK per hour. Probably it will be substantially more, since all my estimates were conservative.
That's one of the best PVE payouts in the game, You would be stupid not to log in for that. And so the daily chore begins... |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
898
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:50:19 -
[437] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:For now it will be per character, even if they aren't actively training.
"how about a reward for either killing an NPC, hacking a Data/Relic thingy or popping a rock?" - Likely one of the first ways we would look to expand in a follow-up release.
So in a couple of years I could train a cyno alt into a T3 without doing anything more than killing 1 gate rat frigate per day? Does the character have to kill the npc solo or can I use other characters I own to help?
1 minute or less to kill 1 npc frigate = 10,000 SP 10 minutes to scan down a relic site and pop 1 can = 10,000 SP 1 hour or more to pop 1 rock mining = 10,000 SP I wonder which will be the more utilized way to get 4 hours free SP.
I wonder, if giving every player in the game 10,000 free sp per day will eventually balance out what is removed every time a skill injector is used by anyone other than a rookie? On that line, can we save up the 10,000 daily SP and turn it into an injector to use on another character or sell on the market?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
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Gvaz Erto
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:54:29 -
[438] - Quote
I love this idea. I am a new player and this will be super helpful. |
Ruby Gnollo
4
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:55:42 -
[439] - Quote
Ruby Gnollo wrote:Kara Burnett wrote:Please no daily quests. Or daily login rewards or whatever daily mechanic you can steal from generic mmos.
A beauty of EvE always was that it lacked those silly little tricks trying to force you to log in or do menial tasks you don't care about. Don't throw that away. I really love that unique concept : the game where people not playing it have no disavantage against those who do play it. Hoooo, please CCP, do not reward people flying ships instead of not playing the game as it's always been designed not te be played, including : - Stacking scammers in Jita - Stacking industrial & market alts to manipulate prices - Running afk alts to help gank Evil Newbies Schemes in HS - Playing forever logged off caps alts - Playing as many alts as your billion ISKs worth of PLEXes allows you to handle for free, at newbies expense Please CCP, forget about the whole flying spaceships concept : please let Eve be a place of evil scamming politicians like in real life for those failed there who wouldn't even find a place in a coffee shop otherwise. Please, CCP, shall New Eden never be a game meant to be played, just to be talked about.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4145
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Posted - 2016.04.09 02:58:30 -
[440] - Quote
I'm not sure how Logging in to shoot a rat then logging back out because there's still nothing to do is going to create content in any way whatsoever.
Shooting NPCs doesn't promote player interaction in any way and player interaction is what creates content. |
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
756
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:00:33 -
[441] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Nice!
That's up to: 3,981,818 SP per year according to my preschool math skills. I like it. A lot.
Assuming you are at some point logging in before and after work and then during work. 22h timeframe remember?
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Harkin Issier
Alcoholocaust. Test Alliance Please Ignore
84
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:00:43 -
[442] - Quote
CCP I've quit games over this kind of bullshit.
When I feel like I'm falling behind when I'm not logging in, and then I'm not able to log in because I have a real job/life/whatever, I'm much more likely to say **** it and leave.
This idea is bad and needs to be stopped. |
Darirol
Bergmann Foundation Bergmann Federation
26
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:04:24 -
[443] - Quote
the way they are going to implement this is completly against the sandbox.
befor i started playing eve i was wondering why there are no pvp rewards/ranks stuff. i couldnt get my head around this because every mmo i played befor eve had such pvp rewards. you kill other people and you char gets stronger in some way.
but after playing eve a while i figured out that you cant give a unique reward because it would invalide every other activity.
there are so many career path in eve that are not defined by game mechanics. you simply cant give such unique rewards like extra skillpoints to a single activity. even if you would give it as well to mining, industrial jobs, pvp kills, what ever.
one example: what about for example freighter pilots? i mean there are serveral corps and alliances that do noting but moving stuff through eve. do you realy wantto force everyone to mine a veldspar or kill a npc or kill their own cyno alt every day?
just to clarify, i like the general idea to give players a small extra bonus for being active ingame. i even like the 10k skillpoints per day idea. but you need a better solution to define "ingame activity". find something that is not bound to a certain activity.
if i log in and chat an hour with people, lets say as an extrem example answering questions in the newbie help chat. isnt that an ingame activity that improves the experience of a lot of people? but as well as talking with people in my corp/alliance, fueling the corp pos and so on.
plz find an "activity" metric that is able to give such a bonus to everyone who is active ingame. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2733
|
Posted - 2016.04.09 03:12:31 -
[444] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I'm not sure how Logging in to shoot a rat then logging back out because there's still nothing to do is going to create content in any way whatsoever.
Shooting NPCs doesn't promote player interaction in any way and player interaction is what creates content.
The could set it at more rats in a row for example. The real problem isn't there. The real issue is everybody seeing it as mandatory because they would cry themselves to sleep if they ever missed out on the potentital of 10k SP. This mean that if it is designed to help newbie get to train something faster, it's completely broken because they are the one with the most chance to "miss out" on it because they don't know yet how much of a deal those 10k SP/day are.
If they really want to to help newbie, then they should really target newbie plain and simple. Making stuff available to everyone in EVE just make sure everyone profit from it except those damn newbies because they might not even know it's there. Make them train flat out faster for a period of time if need be. Putting some SP across some hurdle only mean vets will do it because it's trivial for them to do it anyway while the newbie actually have to make sure they never miss out if they ever want to just break even with it and potentially not get even further behind in the "SP race" they see when they can't fly much of what vets can.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2733
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:14:12 -
[445] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Syrias Bizniz wrote:Nice!
That's up to: 3,981,818 SP per year according to my preschool math skills. I like it. A lot. Assuming you are at some point logging in before and after work and then during work. 22h timeframe remember?
Some people could pull it off but funnily enough, more than likely not newbies who are not yet THAT involved in the game yet. |
Soleil Fournier
Ultimatum. The Bastion
121
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:25:30 -
[446] - Quote
Well said, Darirol |
Pleasure Hub Node-514
Pleasure Hub Hotline
79
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:28:53 -
[447] - Quote
Harkin Issier wrote:CCP I've quit games over this kind of bullshit.
When I feel like I'm falling behind when I'm not logging in, and then I'm not able to log in because I have a real job/life/whatever, I'm much more likely to say **** it and leave.
This idea is bad and needs to be stopped. Having active and passive SP worked in Dust. I'm sure CCP is looking at the engagement numbers from those daily mission systems there. Even on a dying console, Dust was able to retain a die hard userbase that according to Hilmar helped make the game profitable. Having played Dust, the daily system really helped some days to encourage a log in.
'One night hauler' The tell all story of a pleasure bot in Jita 4-4
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Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen
17
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:29:59 -
[448] - Quote
While I like the idea of getting a few extra skillpoints, I really don't like this idea.
Getting these extra skillpoints should require an actual effort. This proposal is bad, not so much because it is a "daily quest" (I would like to get daily quests in, would also love to set up my own for my corp/alliance without using out of game tools), but because there is literally no effort required. You could as well award the SP for spinning my ship 500 times or just logging on.
So Rise, if you want to give us some extra skillpoints, please put some actual work into the topic and make it interesting to get them. Otherwise it will just get farmed until the players get bored. |
Astrid Farnsworth
Broke and Famous
4
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:42:08 -
[449] - Quote
Would be cool to add sed rats to sistems where theres no one. To promote doze sistems. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3521
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Posted - 2016.04.09 03:42:44 -
[450] - Quote
the reason why i started playing this game was because a friend suggested it to me with the words: "Its a MMO where grinding is optional, you can do what you want while your char is progressing - pure sandbox".
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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