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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
BUFA
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Posted - 2008.11.13 07:45:00 -
[241]
/Signed
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.13 07:55:00 -
[242]
To all other races who think this is fair, seriously, do your math, and come up with a plausable arguement other than "HAHA YOU GUYS SUCK WORSE."
If you're gonna complaing about tracking, consider ROF, if you're gonna complain about damage, consider ammo amounts, if you wanna complain then give us some cold hard facts, with math equations and numbers. More caldari pilots have posted math supporting the fact that missiles completely suck, than any of you have even tried to give reason against.
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Salinas Montif
Caldari Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:10:00 -
[243]
While I feel that the QR patch is pretty good in most respects, the nerf to missiles is a bit over the top. I understand the intent of avoiding missile pawnage due to slower speeds, but the reductions that are in place now are woefully lower than necessary.
My suggestion would be... If you halved the explosion velocity of each missile from the pre Quantum Rise patch you would have had a good balance. Heavies were 750m/s, reducing that to 350m/s say would have been fine. An AB cruiser can easily push 500m/s and then reduce damage from missiles. While a frig would have a greater reduction of damage both from sig radius and there base speeds close to the explosion velocity already. But bringing it down to the current 81 m/s is really unexplainable. Same with Cruises. Pre patch it was 300m/s, 150m/s would have done nicely, and easily would have tied in with the reduction in BS base velocity. But 69 m/s is Hulk speed. A hulk with an AB could speed tank a cruise missile while rails and artillery would shoot it like it was standing still.
I don't think missiles should be brought back to there original values, I understand the intent, but I do disagree with the current values. They are simply too low. So..... <signed> |
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:43:00 -
[244]
Moved to Assembly Hall.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang |
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:31:00 -
[245]
Whilst I support this move, I do think it's gone too far. You only need a minimal speed boost (which a single overdrive injector can provide) in order to tank missiles; even if you are heading straight towards them.
I applaud CCP for trying to bring missiles in-line with guns, but this is a nerf too far.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:34:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Vigaz on 13/11/2008 13:33:57 /Signed & support
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Mithrandere
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:39:00 -
[247]
i vote.
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C4LYP50
The Sky Is The Limit
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:54:00 -
[248]
Edited by: C4LYP50 on 13/11/2008 13:56:13 Supported. Both this and other "features" brought about in QR have made me question, for the first time, if this game has its hooks in yet. I guess not, because as much as I enjoy (pre QR) it, these changes make me unhappy enough to consider it a bad investment, and act accordingly, before I get to that "I've got too much invested in this to quit" syndrome. One interesting point? After 5 years of EQ, and what Sony did to it, I had that kind of investment, and I left to come here, which softened the blow alot. It's not so hard, this time around. So, I unsubbed, although both my accounts are paid until Feb 09, and I'll play when/if it becomes enjoyable before then.
So...........U kant haz my stuffs, just yet.
Edit: Forgot to hit the thumbs up thingie after previewing.
Brunette By Birth...........Blonde By Nature. ------------------------------------------------ "Your suffering will be legendary, even in Hell." "No tears, please; it's a waste of good suffering." |
Musashibou Benkei
Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:20:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Musashibou Benkei on 13/11/2008 14:21:03 This is the main points of argument for people for and against the new missile nerf -
People for the nerf: "Missiles were far too overpowered. They would be too effective against targets smaller than what cruise missiles are supposed to hit"
Answer to this: My guess is that 99% of people who say this are just plain happy because they used turrets to begin with. It's their way of throwing their anger around at the nano nerf and saying "HAHAHAHAHA. In your face!!" at someone. Anyone. Impotent rage at people who are actually making valid points
People for the nerf: "Adapt or die"
Answer to this: Those are some great words of wisdom coming from a 2003/2004 char who has every race trained anyway so they can smack-talk all they want and seem like they know everything. Remind us again how long it took for you to train up large hybrids to T2? And say that to the players who only just started playing. You think you know the answer to everything. Every game needs some sort of system that let's you make some easy money in the beginning. Missiles were just that.
Apart from the above points that I have stated, it's all about the rage from people who hated missiles in the first place and are letting off steam to make themself feel good.
P.S. reported eliminator2 for trolling on a forum and encouraging verbal fights to break out.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:47:00 -
[250]
Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 13/11/2008 14:47:43
Originally by: Bad Messenger Missiles are just fine, iŠll change my skill plans to amarr, then i do not have to whine about missiles.
This
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Jach Wong
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:55:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei Edited by: Musashibou Benkei on 13/11/2008 14:21:03 This is the main points of argument for people for and against the new missile nerf -
People for the nerf: "Missiles were far too overpowered. They would be too effective against targets smaller than what cruise missiles are supposed to hit"
Answer to this: My guess is that 99% of people who say this are just plain happy because they used turrets to begin with. It's their way of throwing their anger around at the nano nerf and saying "HAHAHAHAHA. In your face!!" at someone. Anyone. Impotent rage at people who are actually making valid points
People for the nerf: "Adapt or die"
Answer to this: Those are some great words of wisdom coming from a 2003/2004 char who has every race trained anyway so they can smack-talk all they want and seem like they know everything. Remind us again how long it took for you to train up large hybrids to T2? And say that to the players who only just started playing. You think you know the answer to everything. Every game needs some sort of system that let's you make some easy money in the beginning. Missiles were just that.
Apart from the above points that I have stated, it's all about the rage from people who hated missiles in the first place and are letting off steam to make themself feel good.
P.S. reported eliminator2 for trolling on a forum and encouraging verbal fights to break out.
This man speaks the truth.
I honestly have a hard time seeing how missiles pre-QR could be argued as being overpowered. Conventional PVP wisdom seems to state pretty clearly that missiles, with the exception of a select few T2 ships, are not the way to go. One could argue that their lackings in PVP are balanced by their excellence in PVE, but even in PVE there are better T1 options than the Drake / Raven line.
I can only conclude that missiles before QR were at best balanced and at worst underpowered, and that any changes made in QR should be made solely to preserve the previous balance. "This is not the boot you're looking for." |
chatgris
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:25:00 -
[252]
Edited by: chatgris on 13/11/2008 15:25:56 I fly pure gallente (achura for the stats), but I switched from caldari after using them for a month because missiles were just that bad back then, they really didn't need a nerf.
I feel your pain even though I hate using missiles.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:29:00 -
[253]
YAY... no more 100's of ravens flying around.
Maybe I'll start seeing some "Spice" in EVE Online.
Funny Thread 10/10
/me thumbs down
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maddmaxx III
Caldari Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:51:00 -
[254]
CCP this is bull, you cant even make one reply to your costumers? Pitiful, You are losing 5 accounts today, why train anything in this game with the risk of it being nerfed, and no I am not talking about shooting frigs, I am talking about not doing realistic damage to BC's and BS's. Its sad to go really, I really do enjoy eve, but I will not train skills that could be obsolete in the future. And noone is getting my stuff.
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KTOZ
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:54:00 -
[255]
Thnx for atleast unlock the topic, now plz put it back to a regular forum part..
How can you throw a topic with 250 posts in 1 day ?? .. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Celtar
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:03:00 -
[256]
Signed |
Alex Wise
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:08:00 -
[257]
signed. I like changes - but this is too much. i just bought Reaven, now what do i do with it?! if CCP don't cancel the nerf, i might close my account. i won't pay for the game that sucks!!!!
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Riot Prone
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:26:00 -
[258]
Yep
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Rainsdon
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:27:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Rainsdon on 13/11/2008 16:27:13 Signed.
_________________________________________________________
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Sarutobi Sasuke
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:36:00 -
[260]
/signed
CCP really out-did themselves with how much they fail this time
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Loyal Soldier
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:40:00 -
[261]
/signed
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evePreD
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:00:00 -
[262]
Edited by: evePreD on 13/11/2008 17:07:24 Hello there
/signed
I don't understand this nerf
I'll explain my pov.
First, I make real test.
Most missile basic skills @ lvl 5, some lvl 4 All missile adv skills @ lvl 4
In a hawk/crow, i tried to hit a ares orbiting me at a real speed of ~2400m/s and ~5000m/s
Target at ~2400m/s Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile hits, doing 32.2 damage. Bloodclaw Precision Light Missile hits, doing 32.5 damage.
Target at ~5000m/s Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile hits Sir Nuke, doing 22.2 damage. Bloodclaw Precision Light Missile hits, doing 23.0 damage.
What are we suppose to do know with precision light missile when there less effective damage than T1 faction missile ? (every pvpeur should/use faction)
Btw, with T1 missile you dont get the speed malus on your ship, and you'r missile flight 2 times longer than T2
That's only an example.
Now torps. Few months ago, we got a explosion velocity nerf, a little boost to ROF, and a massive range nerf (-400%) After this patch, to make full damage on a BS, we were forced to put a painter, and to hit target put a AB/MWD
A little reminder : caldari tank shield = we use med slot for that, there ships aren't design to tank armor (not enought low slot) "ewar" module (painter, web, AB/MWD) fit ONLY on med slot
Ok, some a us deal with hit, damage with torp was still good enough, but you'r forced to lower you'r tank by removing one or two tank module (SB ampli, hard., LSE,...)
Know we got explosion velocity nerf. T1 Torp and cruise missile got 'exactly' the same explosion velocity; something likes 100m/s with skill lvl 4
That's mean we are now 'forced' to put a WEB and remove again a tank module if we wanna a 'full' DPS..... hey AB/MWD + WEB/painter... what the hell, only 4 slot to tank with a raven ?!
And something about speednerf too (thats in direct relation with missile nerf) Ok now we got slower BS. Ok AB got boosted (only low meta level, T2 AB are exacly the same than before), but with the basic speed of my BS, i loose -20/-30% speed (and now, no more speed gang bonus = -30/-40% less speed in gang)
But, WHY thoose stupids NPC wont get nerfed There BS (angel) still go 170m/s !!! (remember the nicely new explosion velocity of cruise/torp of 100m/s)
It took me 10min, but i found what i want in my game log :
On shield Angel saint (bs sized NPC, going 170m/s), my torp (3 damage mod) makes PRE PATCH: 225 damage POST PATCH : 386.6 damage (there is no mistake, damage on hull is something like 690)
Thats a lovely ~35-40% nerf
Obviously, you'll have the same result with cruise missile (same explo velocity than torp)
Btw, full damage are still not reached when you shoot at a cap ship going full speed (ok ok, a cap ship under fire is web 95% of time...)
The funiest thing is heavy missile who are not able to make full DPS on a BS (a ship who's 2 classes bigger than a cruiser)
And I won't talk about the chapter where ship speed tank your cruise/torp with a little AB
Finally, i'm agree with CCP, missile should need a nerf because of the new speed nerf, but not likes that !
T1 Torp and cruise was fine, why nerf them ?! T2 cruise may need a nerf, but with low explo velo, there are useless now.
With old stats, heavy missile won't be overpowered against a cruise sized ship who goes +2000m/s (explo velo was only 1000m/s)
nb : sry for my english :(
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:01:00 -
[263]
YAY! More people closing accounts!
Means less lag!
^_^
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:06:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Drake Draconis YAY! More people closing accounts!
Means less lag!
^_^
YAY! Someone who isn't signing this petition and is simply trolling for fun!!
reported
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Anaee
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:16:00 -
[265]
/signed
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Satene
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:25:00 -
[266]
/Signed x6
I am supporting this pettition 100%. CCP has changed the dynamics of the game so much that I lost completely interest in playing the game any more. After multiple missile nerfs, this last one is simply rediculous. I tested in PVP with my Nighthawk, Manticore, and Caldari Navi Raven. I have maxed missile skills on one toon and max skills on gunnery on other toon. Missile boats are so outclassed in various combat scenarios that they are simply inferrior. Game is broken. I am letting my children's accounts expire in two weeks (they were both Caldari and their interest was weak and only NPC) and my two industry and trade support accounts. My combat peeps have about 2, and 3 months left and will let them expire. I am dissapointed in training so long and seeing a great game go backwards. This is not an expansion - it is simply a patch, a bad one at that.
I am incuding below my detailed pre patch post fyi.
Satene
Posted - 2008.11.07 05:15:00 - [789] - QuoteReport
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have spent hours reading the changes in missiles and things are definitely going in the wrong direction.
Caldari MUST use mids for tanking. New changes require more mids to be sacrified to achieve full efectiveness of missiles. Complexity is getting rediculous. This very reason for mids handicap, made Caldari so weak in solo pvp. Gang pvp is not an answer. You can say go in gangs to fill any deficiency in any scenario but really not the answer to this major missile nerf.
Why CCP has to screw so much with missiles is beyond me. Speed issue can be fixed many other ways.
Lets put things in simple terms for example:
There is NO way to win in a Raven vs a Domi/Megathron in pvp, providing equally skilled oponents and appropriate top mods. Can CCP see this clearly? Or this is done on purpose.
Or there is NO way a Nighthawk will win against Astarte in pvp, providing equally skilled oponents and appropriate top mods. Can CCP see this clearly? Or this is done on purpose.
The above list can go a long way like this.
My point is, missiles ARE TO COMPENSATE for the mid slots tanking (defence) and MWD/AB/WEB/TP/WS... (offence) PROBLEM or HANDICAP. It is a major Caldari disadvantage and has always been. There are no mid slots to fit all this to be any effective with missiles.
So STOP with nerfing missiles in general and deal with 10km/s Cruisers flying arround. Cruisers should not be fatser than missiles period. Under any circumstances.
Or maybe you will blend all the featuers in this game so much that everything becomes so nerferd and blended that peeps lose interest and the edge in the game. It is a scary thought, but it has happened before.
Respectfully,
Satene 1 of 6 Accounts
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:49:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: Drake Draconis YAY! More people closing accounts!
Means less lag!
^_^
YAY! Someone who isn't signing this petition and is simply trolling for fun!!
reported
This whole damn thread is a troll. So why don't you take your bitter caldari character and take a nice long trip to WOW for a change eh?
This is utterly insane.... its just as bad as the ghost training crap... only worse.
So yeah... go ahead and report me... I honestly think you guys are just griping to be griping. I'm getting a good laugh out of it.
Tootles!
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Aiko Intaki
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Posted - 2008.11.13 18:02:00 -
[268]
Changes were needed, but the ratio of how explosion vs. sig radius and explosion vs. target velocity factor into damage needs to be tweaked a bit. Cruise missiles should be hitting battleships for full damage considering velocity alone, but not WTF owning frigates. CCP got half of that equation correct in QR, but the error they made in over nerfing on explosion velocity will hurt low-sp characters the most.
I'm almost more peeved that 7+ million SP in missiles (cruise-centric) only nets me a low-level booby-prize certification. That's for another thread, however...
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John Duster
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Posted - 2008.11.13 18:05:00 -
[269]
BS sized guns hit BS's for full sometimes they hit for less and so it was proclaimed by the masses that missles were balanced.
But alas delzy is the elephant in the room, as long as it is taking 8+ seconds for my missles to reach my target it should be real simple
BS cruise missle + BS Target = full damage.
thats the trade I get for having to wait while you get a good shot at jumping away before my volley hits.
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evePreD
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.13 18:13:00 -
[270]
Edited by: evePreD on 13/11/2008 18:13:40
Originally by: John Duster BS sized guns hit BS's for full sometimes they hit for less and so it was proclaimed by the masses that missles were balanced.
But alas delzy is the elephant in the room, as long as it is taking 8+ seconds for my missles to reach my target it should be real simple
BS cruise missle + BS Target = full damage.
thats the trade I get for having to wait while you get a good shot at jumping away before my volley hits.
The pb is that missiles DPS ~30% LESS than guns (pre patch... now its something likes 50-60% ?)
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