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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:33:00 - [1921] Originally by: Valan You cheated we need to get over it = wrong. You cheated you should get banned you knew the risk you get over it = rigt. Pick one CCP. So essentially you're saying that CCP should spend many months worth of man-hours, and ban everyone who profited from this? Including: a. The people who sold stuff to the exploiters? b. The people who bought stuff from the exploiters? c. The people who sold GTC's to the exploiters? d. The people who got cheap T2 ships and equipment because of this? e. etc. etc. The people directly involved in this are already banned. If CCP can find any proof against the indirectly involved people, they'll get banned too. Anyone else will walk free, even if they're guilty. This is actually how a fair system should work, but is of.c. not acceptable to the bloodthirsty lynch-mob... So basically, CCP chose your 2nd option, which infers me to believe you want the 1st. Did your mains get banned lately (like a few days ago)??? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:42:00 - [1922] Originally by: Kerfira The people directly involved in this are already banned. AHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:43:00 - [1923] Originally by: Kerfira The people directly involved in this are already banned. Where do you get that impression from ? We only know that some (70 Accounts) are banned yet. How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ?
padraig animal Minmatar Vanguard Frontiers Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:49:00 - [1924] Guess they did a check on the isk ect tho 4 years is a lot of time to move isk that you make true a exploit
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:50:00 - [1925] Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 15:51:28 Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
GFLSandman Minmatar It Burns When I PVP Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:53:00 - [1926] well it is about time a solution was found for the market being so screwed up. hell i remember way back when... when you couldn't touch a unit of megacyte for less than 20k. maybe we now will start to make isk in the game again.... now if something can be done about Johnny macro miner and the isk sellers we would be spot on.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:56:00 - [1927] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 15:51:28 Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for.
Hecate Shaw Caldari United Freemerchants Society	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:03:00 - [1928] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/12/2008 12:41:00 Originally by: Kilhu Emmek This just underscores the contrast between CCP and an experienced, professional MMO publisher. Say what you will about Blizzard, EA, et al, this kind of crap does not go on in their games for four years. The timescale and volume this exploit use had, were not confirmed by any believable source yet. Most MMO games simply lack EVEs complexity and server size, yet if this has gone one for more than a few days, one really had to wonder why there was no automated auditing system in place. What would you have them automate? Tracking every bit of raw material produced and constantly looking for items produced with materials that shouldn't exist would slaughter server performance; anything less wouldn't work because there is no requirement that materials "mined" be used immediately. They would expect input and output numbers to be off, almost all the time. Originally by: Talsha Talamar Checking the difference of the volume of an item in game between two points in time and flagging any values exceeding a plausibility criteria should not be that difficult technically, right ? The market hits a low, people start stockpiling 50% of the materials they mine, and your detector goes nuts. Same thing happens when the market evens out and everyone starts leaking that stored material onto the market. Same happens when some alliance starts stockpiling to prepare for a major push. Now add in alchemy. If you make your "plausibility criteria" less sensitive, you won't be detecting anything anyway; there is no way to know how long such a cycle would last, either, so there is no way to judge how much time to put between your reference points. Most likely, you'd have to set it to a matter of months at least. Not worth the lag, IMO. Stercus accidit
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:03:00 - [1929] Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:04:53 Originally by: GuntiNDDS Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for. And you have no proof against it either, which makes my statement have just as much chance as yours to be true... I base my statement on what the responsible authority (CCP) says. If they'd wanted to cover something up, they'd have simply closed this loophole without mentioning it. They didn't! Of.c. the tinfoil brigade (you included) will never believe that CCP is not doing their best (which is in their financial interest). Reasonable people however will... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:10:00 - [1930] Edited by: chrisss0r on 13/12/2008 16:13:41 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:04:53 Originally by: GuntiNDDS Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for. And you have no proof against it either, which makes my statement have just as much chance as yours to be true... I base my statement on what the responsible authority (CCP) says. If they'd wanted to cover something up, they'd have simply closed this loophole without mentioning it. They didn't! Of.c. the tinfoil brigade (you included) will never believe that CCP is not doing their best (which is in their financial interest). Reasonable people however will... Sorry but i don't find any ccp statement that says they banned everyone involved, they themself say they will look deeper into it. And don't you see quite a difference in you saying "all of them are banned!!!!!!" and others saying "there MIGHT be more?" And yes i believe they will try to find every cheater but question is what happens to the alliance assets. What if ccp finds out like 40% of the assets a major alliance has a directly created by a corp in that alliance and produced out of thin air. Will they terminate the assets or will they leave it alone to not **** up all the uninvolved players. Also you have to consider that many parties owning moones might only have them due to this exploit, so they can now profit even more from it

Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:16:00 - [1931] Originally by: chrisss0r Sorry but i don't find any ccp statement that says they banned everyone involved, they themself say they will look deeper into it. It takes a very focused tinfoil brain to believe that in spite of it being in their financial interest, CCP would NOT ban all involved, thus the inference that they did in fact do so. Originally by: chrisss0r And don't you see quite a difference in you saying "all of them are banned!!!!!!" and others saying "there MIGHT be more?" I didn't use exclamation marks.... And no, there's no substantial difference. My remark is based the belief that a commercial company will do what is in its financial interest, the other that there is a huge conspiracy going on about an internet spaceship game.... In essence, the main difference is that I don't wear a tinfoil hat... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:18:00 - [1932] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:04:53 Originally by: GuntiNDDS Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for. And you have no proof against it either, which makes my statement have just as much chance as yours to be true... I base my statement on what the responsible authority (CCP) says. If they'd wanted to cover something up, they'd have simply closed this loophole without mentioning it. They didn't! Of.c. the tinfoil brigade (you included) will never believe that CCP is not doing their best (which is in their financial interest). Reasonable people however will... you incline that ccp said their investigations and banning of accounts were complete. they did not. actually they gave hint that more accounts may be banned.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:20:00 - [1933] Edited by: chrisss0r on 13/12/2008 16:23:09 Edited by: chrisss0r on 13/12/2008 16:20:32 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:17:23 It takes a very focused tinfoil brain to believe that in spite of it being in their financial interest, CCP would NOT ban all involved, thus the inference that they did in fact do so. Yay and it take a stupid idiot like you to believe they already know everyone who was directly involved. Maybe every ALT that was directly involved but for ****ing sure not everyone involved. Suuuure those Corps operating freely in 0.0, not part of an alliance and making trillions of isk were not connected to any alliance. HAHA It's like saying the police for sure arrest everyone who commits a crime cause it is in their best interest.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:20:00 - [1934] Originally by: Venkul Mul You want an hypothetical example of a "considerable and far reaching" effect that you can get in a limited spawn of time and without so many people involved? If a single POS exploiting can generate over 8 billions in a month 25 such POS (very easy to manage by 5 players) in two months would have generate 400 billions. Now our "friends", unused to such wealth, spend some of it but don't know what to do with the rest (or simply want to try to secure it against discovery) and using some alt, deposit it in EBank. CCP investigate and seize the assets of this guys and all the alts. EBank suddenly lose 350 billions from the liquid assets, losing almost all the reserve to pay for withdrawals. So they need to sell assets and recall loans. And that will damage investitors and people that have asked for the loans, with an added risk of a bank run and stunting of the EBank for months to come. "considerable and far reaching" consequences without the need of a long exploiting period. There are several scenarios where some month of this exploit can have "considerable and far reaching" consequences without the need of it being in effect for years. Edit. Looking a post by Bunyip (I hope the spelling is right) another and this almost certainly real effect felt by a lot of players can have been the high prices of GTC brought with isk. As soon as the exploiter started doing this they almost certainly started paying the accounts they have with GTC and opening even more accounts the same way. So the recent rise in GTC prices can be partially a consequence of this exploit. Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. To produce any significant impact you need at least amounts in the order of tens of trillions ISK, which are not easy to dump in the market in a small amount of time. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Carter VanSandt Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:07:00 - [1935] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. .... Ah.... yeah... you are rich. _______________________________________________ I SURVIVED FERROGATE 2008!
Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:38:00 - [1936] Edited by: Knawt Ongrid on 13/12/2008 17:39:35 Originally by: Carter VanSandt Originally by: Etho Demerzel Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. .... Ah.... yeah... you are rich. Yeah, pfft, 50 mil. Who doesn't have that? Oh, "bil"
IHateMyJob	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:42:00 - [1937] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 15:51:28 Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... CCP stated that they took down accounts, destroyed POS's and wiped assets of corporations set up ONLY to do this... I'm sure there are most likely others that are doing it without being covert.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:48:00 - [1938] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Gamer4liff You don't mind paying 3x for T2 goods? Care to share your calculations with us? A quick calculation on my side shows that with alchemy ferogel will be around 40-45k. That is roughly twice as expensive as a few weeks ago. I suspect fermionic condensates around 70k and hypersynaptic fibers at 8k. With these numbers a rapier costs around 20-25 mil more to build with invention. That is 45% more. Not 400%. I can understand that some people want market panic so that they can sell their stuff much overpriced, but they hysteria about insane expensive t2 mods and the end of the world is just absurd. Ships will become 50% more expensive at worst, modules will be affected that a bit less. And that is if ONLY alchemy is used and no dys supply at all comming in on the market. With the still ongoing supply from 0.0 prices will rise even less. Don't 'sperg out dude, I was replying to his post where he said he wouldn't mind paying 3x for T2 goods. I know damn well things will probably only go up 1.5x-2x. Quote: Get real. The effects from this will be gone in a few weeks as prices stabilise. The large majority of EVE (except for a few whiners) will simply adapt to the new reality. They'll cry a little more when losing a T2 ship, and they'll laugh a little more when killing one.... This is a GAME, not something important..... As long as everyone is playing on the same playing field it doesn't matter that the playing field now is a little rougher. In fact it is beneficial for the game. Oh look the traditional adapt or die argument, how quaint. Well guess what this isn't a matter of adaptation, this is a matter of how much the game has been tainted by the actions of those players. To shrug off years of ill-gotten capital fleets and 0.0 victories to say everything will be peachy is ridiculous, the face of 0.0 politics has been irreversibly tainted. Maybe you're okay with people having a virtually limitless supply of wealth to prop up their alliances that would have failed, but I'm not.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.13 18:49:00 - [1939] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. To produce any significant impact you need at least amounts in the order of tens of trillions ISK, which are not easy to dump in the market in a small amount of time. And your definition of "considerable and far reaching" is based on what meter? Only when it is the equivalent of a word war or a global recession?
Garok Nor Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.12.13 18:59:00 - [1940] Originally by: Irongut Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Because Cubba Gooding Jr should have had a bigger part. Btw the world did exist for a few billion years before the USA. Could it be they had another historical event in mind? No surely not, only American history is important. Probably because with exception of the year, that is an exact quote from a US Presidential radio address, regarding the attack on Pearl Harbour. If CCP had just said on Dec 7th we found some bad stuff, perhaps I would agree with you. But compare "Dec 7th 1941, a day which will live in infamy" with "Dec 7th 2008, a day which will live in infamy". The Pearl Harbour reference is obvious to anybody not trolling or being obtuse (either intentionally or not). FWIW, I'm not American ------------------------------------------------- Items posted by me are in no way a reflection of the policies and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance. {though they maybe really ought to be}

Amarkon	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:07:00 - [1941] It's hard to feel sorry for the wealthy in Eve, especially if that wealth is gained by cheating. Must be a bummer to put in years of effort, time and such just to now find yourself smacked in the head with the ban bat. ROFL If you don't like that comment, good. I don't need your long mental post reply, just buh bye.
Kirgan Caldari Pyrognome	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:32:00 - [1942] CCP says accounts banned ,POS's destroyed , etc... They have lied about several exploits and cheating until it was eventually brought out by players. Hard to believe they have done anything except partially admit it. As a result it's going to be real hard to look at any Alliance in the game and not consider them a joke or low rent cheaters. At the very least CCP needs to make public the names and Alliances involved so that the ones that got where they are from actual effort don't suffer the same stigma. Though if they actually took action we would see some dissolved Alliances and member corps. That would also have to include their pet Alliances, we all know who they are. Quote: Two Reasons Why It's So Hard To Solve A Redneck Murder. 1. The DNA all matches. 2. There are no dental records.
Dr Chicago	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:35:00 - [1943] This scam kind of makes the selling and buying of ISK on the web seem fairly petty, unless the current exploit was used to sell ISK on the web for cash, not condoning the behavior just pointing that out... But isn't finding exploits and exploiting them for profit the motivator of Capitalism in its raw form, seems kind of hypocritical to lash out at a community for using the sandbox tools that were available, capitalism rewards ingenuity and risky behavior. A slap on the wrist and a fine would be SOP. D C
Gromilia	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:39:00 - [1944] I have been reading this post 65 pages and a question i would like to ask CCP is can flipping an exploit or is it apart of the game mechanics ? If CCP had known for the last 4 years of this exploit why didnt they do something about it then. And this is not the first time that CCP had made this sort of a mistake.What about Ghost Training it had taken them 5 years to findout it was a bug but ccp let that bug go for 5 years. CCP before you release a new major patch please go over it with a fine tooth comb and look for all possible bugs and exploits. So that the eve community would not suffer from been banned because someone in CCP did not do their job. I am not trying to bag CCP but someone has to let them know that these things should not happen.
Mandilater	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:49:00 - [1945] Wow CCP = Fisher Pryce my first software development
POS Trader	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:51:00 - [1946] Edited by: POS Trader on 13/12/2008 19:53:41 Originally by: Gamer4liff Maybe you're okay with people having a virtually limitless supply of wealth to prop up their alliances that would have failed, but I'm not. People ***ing about this, *** in RL more than about EVE as so far is less messed up than the magic world of RL banking. Edit: Didn't know that b-word was a censored word in eve universe!
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:02:00 - [1947] Edited by: OffBeaT on 13/12/2008 20:05:45 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: OffBeaT Originally by: Kerfira My post you gota be joking right! think about the newer players or mid range players who grind the game out day in and day out who wont to beable to afford somthing nice for there ships without buying isk to have to do it.. Correction.... They'll still be able to buy lots of nice stuff, but the available range of goods just got stretched out a bit with regard to affordability. Game mechanics wise, it will be a GOOD thing for T2 to get more expensive, as it'll: 1. Make people cry a little more as they lose it 2. Make people gloat a little more when they kill it 3. Give more people something higher to strive for 4. Make flying T2 something of a bragging item In other words, it'll insert a little more emotion into people's gameplay, which is all that really matters. Look further than your own nose, please..... what eve planet are you on.. huh! first off the high cost of t2 would make combat less attractive to to mid range players it shoure would to me.. 2nd: as i do not know what large corp your main is a member of but not all corps can compet with high isk corps so they like me cant attract new members into their corps becouse they cant afford the cost of mods to aid them. 3rd: t1 mods unless they are the real high cost ones dont get the job done in combat unless its blob war. 4th: i dont brag when i lose a 250mil t2 bs and i dont know anyone who dose. 5th: my nose is out of my ass as a am i down to earth eve gammer and think about the noobs/mid range players who dog this game out day in and out. we dont all have 10 accounts or corps with 100 members so think on that will yea. they have the right to get somthing out of eve aswell i would think.
Makhan	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:08:00 - [1948] Originally by: Gromilia I have been reading this post 65 pages and a question i would like to ask CCP is can flipping an exploit or is it apart of the game mechanics ? If CCP had known for the last 4 years of this exploit why didnt they do something about it then. And this is not the first time that CCP had made this sort of a mistake.What about Ghost Training it had taken them 5 years to findout it was a bug but ccp let that bug go for 5 years. CCP before you release a new major patch please go over it with a fine tooth comb and look for all possible bugs and exploits. So that the eve community would not suffer from been banned because someone in CCP did not do their job. I am not trying to bag CCP but someone has to let them know that these things should not happen. I think you're confused, nobody with any intelligence gives a flying f' about either of those things, this actually matters.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:08:00 - [1949] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 13/12/2008 20:09:14 CCP - Exactly how many years the exploit has been in game? In other words, not the amount of time the exploit has been abused, but the number of years this exploit has been available for abuse. This will give us a rough estimate, a very rough one, as to the damage. Easily done, since CCP will know if they ever fixed the POS code in previous years related to the exploit. If last week was the first time they have actually fixed it - then the contention that this exploit was in game since the inception of POS (about 4 years) is a correct one. Was the ISK used in RMT? Because, if this exploit has been present for even 2-3 years, then the amount of ISK skimmed from the game is indeed in many, many trillions of ISK (that' thousands of billions). And not all of it could simply go into infrastructure support and in game wars. This will further allow us to glean the extend of "organized crime like activity" that was going in big alliances. I do not believe for a second the Ev0ke's leadership excuses that "we did not know" and it "was just a few of us." When you run an alliance, hell when you run a corporation of any kind, whether you are a carebear or a PVPer, you will see ISK coming in in large quantities, you will know that something is up. Nor would I believe any other leadership or alliances that say we only had a few "bad" guys. If they have benefited, then they are guilty. Confiscate ALL alliance property, and ALL corporate property. Trace ALL assets moved in and out of the corporate and alliance possession for the last couple of years, and confiscate that. And, CCP , do not ban them, let them remain in game, put a hold on their ability to sell the characters, and just give us their names. Seriously, take away all their ill gotten gains, all BPOs, minerals, ISK, everything, post the names publicly, and leave them in their space - things will happen soon enough. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Jonathan Smythe	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:21:00 - [1950] Edited by: Jonathan Smythe on 13/12/2008 20:23:19 I really love this! Enraged and indignated voices calling for blood and full disclosure. Let the heads roll! Demands for better control of economic factors to detect fraud. Why didn't the economists see this happen all along? What¦s going to happen to the T2 market? What will the Council do? It¦s really fantastic to see the current IRL crisis mirrored in EVE. This is why this game is so totally different. Real economy, real scams, real scandals and real indignation, real politics, even real moral issues. You got to love it when it gets this good.



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