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CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:23:00 - [1] We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email Reducing lag in EVE: The Jita Conundrum - StacklessIO or: How We Reduced Lag - Such Stuff As Dreams Are Made On - EVE64 - My node was equipped with the following...

MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:31:00 - [2] Any word as to the economic impact? ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Peter VonThal Raygun Technologies	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:32:00 - [3] Interesting, I hope we get some insight from the Dr. at some point in the future.
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:32:00 - [4] Can you say how widespread the issue was before "fixing" the problem?
Phoenus Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Phoenus on 10/12/2008 21:33:01 It'd be interesting to know the extent to which this was being used.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:33:00 - [6] 4 years aye. Time for a rapid response unit maybe? How come this wasn't spotted earlier, for example by your much-vaunted economist? Surely gigantic piles of T2 reactions without corresponding amounts mined (or even mineable given the lack of Dyspro moons) should have given some sort of an indication something was wrong?
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:34:00 - [7] Will this projected coming shortage in advanced materials in any way affect the moon distribution and output? Delenda est achura.
Underpaid Overworked	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:34:00 - [8] Edited by: Underpaid Overworked on 10/12/2008 21:34:52 Copy and Paste from the German EvEO by CCP Fallout, wow that was a difficult and well thought out statement that required time to prepare...
Datsun Achura Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:34:00 - [9] Is it true this exploit has existed for four years?
Valan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:34:00 - [10] So is it true it was reported to CCP? Was it a genuine mistake and CCP did nothing? Are we loooking at another GM/IRC buddy thing? /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig

Jack's Rabbit	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:34:00 - [11] We need to know if it's true CCP has known about this exploit for 4 years.
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:35:00 - [12] How is this affecting the economy? How much of the ferrogel supply was comming from this exploit?
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:35:00 - [13] Impressive, I guess a list of the offenders is out of the question as always though :(
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:36:00 - [14] I guess all those employees added to the cake-baking finally paid off!
LikYum Amarr Health and Beauty Spa	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:36:00 - [15] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. 1, Is it true that it was reported 4 years ago? 2, Did the person it was reported to, or who picked up the petition pass it on or keep it for themself and misuse game mechanics for 4 years? 3, Did they pass it on to anyone (individual/corp/alliance) else who has profited by it for the last 4 years? Oh and on 1st page in what will no doubt be an epic epic thread
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:36:00 - [16] ________________________________________
Arcon Telf Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:36:00 - [17] Wow. Just ... wow.
Kazaux Aux Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:37:00 - [18] Edited by: Kazaux Aux on 10/12/2008 21:39:06 So how much will my T2 stuff go up in price? First page ftw :D
Underpaid Overworked	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:37:00 - [19] Paging Internal Affairs for a real statement.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Jack's Rabbit We need to know if it's true CCP has known about this exploit for 4 years. I would say "I doubt we'll ever find out", but depending on the effects on the economy, we might, in fact, find out the extent of this.

Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:38:00 - [21]
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:38:00 - [22] What I want / need to know is how many reaction chains where run in this way and how many people was banned. . you'll never jump alone
Amber Coldheart	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:38:00 - [23] Cant wait to hear CCP's explanation of this one :)
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:38:00 - [24] I heard about this once quite a while ago. And i wrote if off to the drunken ramblings of a southern man. God damn i coullda been rich Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:39:00 - [25] Edited by: Weirda on 10/12/2008 21:40:42 Is this address in current (delay) patch? __ weirda
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Xthril Ranger What I want / need to know is how many reaction chains where run in this way and how many people was banned. Just ask in alliance chat
Dr Nefarius	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:40:00 - [27] Hopefully the use has been widespread, so my purchase of t2 modules pays off But seriously, all involved must get the ban for this.
Valan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:40:00 - [28] Originally by: Straight Chillen I heard about this once quite a while ago. And i wrote if off to the drunken ramblings of a southern man. God damn i coullda been banned unless I knew a GM or CCP dude Fixed it /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Gane Green Gallente Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:40:00 - [29] Wow If God was a number he would be over 9,000!!!!!!!!!
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:41:00 - [30] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. Isn't that true for any exploit? FREE! jumpclone service

royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:41:00 - [31] Everyone got greedy, and when they found out about this exploit, nobody said anything But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.) -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.
SilverSoldier Amarr BlackSky inc. Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:41:00 - [32] Edited by: SilverSoldier on 10/12/2008 21:41:28 dang.. 2nd page.. 4years is allot of iskies... ALLOT! share the wealth! or will i get banned for that?:P will this influence current moonmat prices? if ur able to fill up a silo in a few hours instead of week or would be a HUGE ammount of moonmats disapearing from the game..
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:42:00 - [33] How many more exploits like this are still out there? :(
Aero089 Exiled. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:42:00 - [34] Rumour has it that several large alliances have gained from this, but to what effect? ---
Zoiewu	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:42:00 - [35] check the influence map over the next few days, I really hope for your own benefit you give a more detailed account of things given the impact this would have had over 4 Years.
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:43:00 - [36] Well done CCP, good thing my subscription ends tomorrow morning.
Mistress Frome SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:43:00 - [37] acknowledging that it exists but not a word about its potential effects =/
Hammerfail CEO Caldari Hammerfail Industries	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:44:00 - [38] Things are looking bad for MM Hammerfail Industries Professional Mercenary Solutions Accept no substitutes or imposters!
Underpaid Overworked	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:44:00 - [39] New page = New request for a real statement by CCP that identifies the extent of damages done, the extent of players/corps/alliances involved in the exploit, how long CCP has know about this and done nothing, how may titans are being removed, etc. Your statement is BS.
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Aero089 Rumour has it that several large alliances have gained from this, but to what effect? Maybe this helped a lot in BOB's major capital funds ? Just ideas i'm posting, plz no flame -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.

Amber Coldheart	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Mistress Frome acknowledging that it exists but not a word about its potential effects =/ Well, potential effect is basically endless profit, without pretty much lifting a finger. Guess you have to haul stuff off every now and then, to keep the silos empty.
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Strength in Numbers.	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:46:00 - [42] The real sad part is that a 3rd party forum had this pointed out to them by a banned character, only then did CCP act. If it was not for that 3rd party forum this would have been under the rug in a heart beat.
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Strength in Numbers.	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Mistress Frome acknowledging that it exists but not a word about its potential effects =/ Unlimited moon minerals for 4 years or so effect.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:49:00 - [44] Useless OP@10/12/2008 21:23:00. We know all this and have read the details of the xploit and estimated effects given by the exploiter. Please give us your version of the details about the effects of this. Until you do the exploiters version=fact and speculations about the effects will keep shaking prices of certain market items.
Mistress Frome SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:49:00 - [45] Edited by: Mistress Frome on 10/12/2008 21:49:36 Originally by: Amber Coldheart Edited by: Amber Coldheart on 10/12/2008 21:46:31 Originally by: Mistress Frome acknowledging that it exists but not a word about its potential effects =/ Well, potential effect is basically endless profit, without pretty much lifting a finger. Guess you have to haul stuff off every now and then, to keep the silos empty. As for the potential consequenses, well... if CCP took 4 years to do something about this, i wont suggest holding your breath :) yeah my bad I meant consequences. but I agree though. having this go on for 4 whole years is just wow.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Straight Chillen I heard about this once quite a while ago. And i wrote if off to the drunken ramblings of a southern man. God damn i coullda been banned Fixed.
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Sgt Napalm The real sad part is that a 3rd party forum had this pointed out to them by a banned character, only then did CCP act. If it was not for that 3rd party forum this would have been under the rug in a heart beat. agreed:S
Doonoo Boonoo Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:51:00 - [48] 4 years. Pretty sad that this came out on a 3rd party forum. I'm getting deja vue here.
zenthral staichon SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:51:00 - [49] BAIL OUTS, WE NEED BAIL OUTS!!!
Meriones Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Hammerfail CEO Things are looking bad for MM I can still log in \o/. I blame Fluf for this tho.

Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:53:00 - [51] The question I'd personally like to see adressed, is how much materials were created in relation to what the seeded (and mineable) moons in EVE can produce. Is perhaps the whole t2 economy for some time (maybe years?) now running on exploited supplies? Is perheps the R64 bottleneck even worse than we always thought?
Carl Druffee Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:54:00 - [52] This wasn't a feature? Oh right, it wasn't well-documented in the player-guide, so it must have been a bug that hadn't been high on the priority-list of to-do things.
End'ani	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:55:00 - [53] Originally by: TheG2 Well done CCP, good thing my subscription ends tomorrow morning. Yay! One less scum-sucking pirate in the game... Getting back to the thread, I wonder how many members of BoB will suddenly disappear? ... Anybody? Anybody?
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:57:00 - [54] Originally by: Mioelnir The question I'd personally like to see adressed, is how much materials were created in relation to what the seeded (and mineable) moons in EVE can produce. Is perhaps the whole t2 economy for some time (maybe years?) now running on exploited supplies? Is perheps the R64 bottleneck even worse than we always thought? This has been going on for 4 whole years, We're talking 5 if not 6 digit number of amounts of tech 2 ships produced out of this, since for example 4 major t2 producing corps ingame just went bankrupt (I heard). -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:57:00 - [55] Rumor has it that some of the major alliances will get 80% of their players banned. Is this true? -------- Ideas for: Mining
Cardinal Harvest	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:57:00 - [56] Wohoo, this only means exploits moved to a higher level and no one needs "simple moon thing" no more as it became too obvious.
thoth foc Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:58:00 - [57] Originally by: royal killer Originally by: Aero089 Rumour has it that several large alliances have gained from this, but to what effect? Maybe this helped a lot in BOB's major capital funds ? Just ideas i'm posting, plz no flame Originally by: Hammerfail CEO Things are looking bad for MM ------------------ x-DSMA (Menta) x-CA (OMEGA/BOS) x-.5.(ATUK) BOB (DICE)
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:59:00 - [58] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 10/12/2008 21:59:10 Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. It took you an hour to come up with that message? Ya, that's believable. What aren't you telling us? What was the scope of the abuse of this exploit? How long has it gone on? Who used it? What is assets are being confiscated?
Dragonz Fire The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.10 21:59:00 - [59] Originally by: Abrazzar Rumor has it that some of the major alliances will get 80% of their players banned. Is this true? no.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:00:00 - [60] Originally by: Dragonz Fire Originally by: Abrazzar Rumor has it that some of the major alliances will get 80% of their players banned. Is this true? no. That's absurd. There's no way 80% of a major alliance knew without it leaking out.

Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:02:00 - [61] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. That's it? That's all? After the time, money, and effort many here have made and given CCP... that's all you have to say about an exploit that some say has been going on for 4 YEARS! We deserve answers... we deserve the names... we deserve to have these people called out and hung infrom of everyone... we need names, alliances, corps, pos locations, amount earned, what they did, how much they built... the whole sha-bang. Take accountability and show your paying customers what you intend to do to prevent things like this again. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:02:00 - [62] Originally by: MyOwnSling Any word as to the economic impact? Well if what is said is true then most who have ever bought T2 equipment have benefited by slightly decreased costs maybe? Slade Originally by: Crumplecorn NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine. ≡v≡
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:02:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. I just want to say thank you for posting this. You could have just not said anything. The right thing and the easy thing to do are rarely the same. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Moostang DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:05:00 - [64] Originally by: Phoenus Edited by: Phoenus on 10/12/2008 21:33:01 It'd be interesting to know the extent to which this was being used. You tell us.... Moostang Darkstar 1 Goonswarm Priceless Necro Thread
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:05:00 - [65] Will the repoman come for all their capital fleets of ill-gotten ships? Then the velator inconvenience op might not just be a comedy option anymore. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:05:00 - [66] Want to fix this, CCP? Remove the moon minerals from game, till you can come up with a new T2 recipe.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:06:00 - [67] The logs... they do nothing. How did CCP's much lauded resident economist not spot this? Didn't a single soul with access to this data notice? Surely with how essential monitoring and reviewing such data would be to game balance we're talking about a lot of opportunities to notice such an exploit. Also how many times has this exploit been petitioned over the last four years? I'm highly disappointed, but I'm hoping CCP can manage to be honest about this so that the game can move on. Without knowledge of the level of impact this has had we're all in the dark left to ponder the worst.
zenthral staichon SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:08:00 - [68] I heard MM, RZR, TCF, GS, TRI, PL, BoB, Evoke, MH, SOT, AAA, RA, ROL, IRON, UNL will have their whole leadership banned, c/d? Furthermore,
Evie May	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:08:00 - [69] ok... soooo.... ive read all the replies but i still cant figure out what the exploit was in the firstplace. I'm just curious is all =/
Underpaid Overworked	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:09:00 - [70] Page 3 = Yet another request for a real statement by CCP that identifies the extent of damages done, the extent of players/corps/alliances involved in the exploit, how long CCP has know about this and done nothing, how may titans are being removed, etc. Your statement is nothing short of a canned response and addresses nothing...

mamolian Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:10:00 - [71] Rather depressing tbh.. -----------
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:10:00 - [72] Hooray for banning exploiters. A bit confused at some of the emo-raging posters, do you think CCP has a button that instantly shows how long an exploit has been going on and how many people have been involved, in what alliances and exactly how much isk was exploited? I mean varying market conditions and alts that put up POS alone must be a nightmare to keep track of. The exploiter on SHC claims a lot, but do you really believe him? After he got his accounts banned, I expect him to try to dis-credit CCP. The exploit is real, but how long it has been going on and how much isk he exploited, and how much isk got banned we will never really know as you can always claim CCP or the exploiter is lying so who really gives a **** about the exact figures. I expect there to be the usual speculators and then T2 prices maybe taking a small rise in prices, but some of you guys are freaking out over an exploit that may have been widespread or may have been just used by two guys. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Relentless Phantsm Eyes of the Night Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:10:00 - [73] CCP for governor of Illinois.
Avalira Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:10:00 - [74] Where's the CSM? This sounds like a job for them. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Its been fixed. All in all its one of the more embarrassing mistakes I made, but it made game design laugh. Now lets never speak of this again.
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:11:00 - [75] Interesting times ahead if the T2 market was based on this exploit as much as people suggest. Guess I should get to Jita and cash in... Where do ideas like these come from? Monkeys in hats?
Amber Coldheart	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:11:00 - [76] Originally by: Evie May ok... soooo.... ive read all the replies but i still cant figure out what the exploit was in the firstplace. I'm just curious is all =/ Had to do with moonmining, basically harvesting minerals even though half the PoS was offline or somesuch (and without using any materials to boot, so it was all free).
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:11:00 - [77] Originally by: Avalira Where's the CSM? This sounds like a job for them. Heh. That was almost funny. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:12:00 - [78] Devs, might I suggest that you use this exploit as an excuse to remove all titans from the game, just claim that they were all funded by this illegal activity. Oh, and remove the BPOs too, also funded by that. Its the best excuse you'll ever get to fix your own biggest ****up without admitting it
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:13:00 - [79] Originally by: Cmndr Griff Interesting times ahead if the T2 market was based on this exploit as much as people suggest. Guess I should get to Jita and cash in... You're too late. Delenda est achura.
Cardinal Harvest	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:13:00 - [80] lol

Dickens Cider Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:13:00 - [81] Wait a minute! This can't be true because we all know it was invention that drove T2 prices down!
Deggins	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:15:00 - [82] It has been said that the exploit involved, under certain circumstances, reactions at POSs running to completion (filling silos) without actually consuming any material inputs.
hUssmann Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:17:00 - [83] Bang up job guys, nice to know you're on the ball. After numerous petitions by myself and hundreds upon hundreds of players petitioning obvious exploits and descrepencies to get them looked at and it being shrugged off by the GM team may I suggest internal affairs take a look at what they're actually doing when my petition is being processed and sitting in the cue decaying over weeks and months? Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:17:00 - [84] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 10/12/2008 22:17:50 Originally by: Avalira Where's the CSM? This sounds like a job for them. Agreed. Hence I posted this thread.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:18:00 - [85] What a huge conspiracy this must have been if several people in several big alliances did this for four (!) years, it is hard to believe nobody noticed and petitioned it. Well, at least this time apparently people actually get the ban stick as opposed to the high end complex boss spawn exploits that fueled certain people's wallets over years as well and nobody suffered any consequences for it. Or are the bans just some pawn sacrifice and the real beneficiaries go scot free again?
Spindeln Duty.	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:18:00 - [86] Originally by: royal killer Originally by: Mioelnir The question I'd personally like to see adressed, is how much materials were created in relation to what the seeded (and mineable) moons in EVE can produce. Is perhaps the whole t2 economy for some time (maybe years?) now running on exploited supplies? Is perheps the R64 bottleneck even worse than we always thought? This has been going on for 4 whole years, We're talking 5 if not 6 digit number of amounts of tech 2 ships produced out of this, since for example 4 major t2 producing corps ingame just went bankrupt (I heard). They never said it was 4 years, yet you seem so sure. Have you been aware of this for 4 years? Have you exploited it? Or did you read 4 years on the internet and therefore it must be the truth...
Underpaid Overworked	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:19:00 - [87] Edited by: Underpaid Overworked on 10/12/2008 22:19:57 Originally by: Vaal Erit Hooray for banning exploiters. A bit confused at some of the emo-raging posters, do you think CCP has a button that instantly shows how long an exploit has been going on and how many people have been involved, in what alliances and exactly how much isk was exploited? I mean varying market conditions and alts that put up POS alone must be a nightmare to keep track of. The exploiter on SHC claims a lot, but do you really believe him? After he got his accounts banned, I expect him to try to dis-credit CCP. The exploit is real, but how long it has been going on and how much isk he exploited, and how much isk got banned we will never really know as you can always claim CCP or the exploiter is lying so who really gives a **** about the exact figures. I expect there to be the usual speculators and then T2 prices maybe taking a small rise in prices, but some of you guys are freaking out over an exploit that may have been widespread or may have been just used by two guys. Yes, I do not think it should be an extraordinary act for CCP to know the extent of the exploit considering it may have been going on 4 years, considering it is there game that they designed and monitor. Here we have the "expert" economist sporting charts and graphs on sales trends, yet a red flag never went up that more is being put out then could possibly be going in? Simply saying, "yeah we banned a few players for unfair advantage" is not enough. Why wasn't a proper response with the actual impact on EvE thought out in advance prior to the mass bannings? Did CCP really hope/think no one would be the wiser?
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:21:00 - [88] I always wondered how a certain alliance could keep loosing jump freighters as if they were frigates... now I know. This has had a profound effect on the game, and you have had experience of how to deal with this type of news, deal with it the CORRECT way, look at the way CCP handled past issues and do not make the same mistake. If there was any time to SET UP, this is it. This is BIG, EPIC BIG. For those of you who dont think its that big of a deal, I just ask you to sit back and watch this space. This is gona be one hell of a ride. I leave you with these words... 'I have a bad feeling about this' -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari Quicksilver Industries and Painful Effects Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome 4 years aye. Time for a rapid response unit maybe? How come this wasn't spotted earlier, for example by your much-vaunted economist? Surely gigantic piles of T2 reactions without corresponding amounts mined (or even mineable given the lack of Dyspro moons) should have given some sort of an indication something was wrong? My bets on this guy has a BoB character somewhere along the line. Lets see who no longer logs on in the coming weeks. Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
Hail Xenu	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:25:00 - [90] hmmm this is interesting, the starbase setup described can be found all over delve in BOBs sov4 capital systems....

Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:27:00 - [91] I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this.
Underpaid Overworked	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:28:00 - [92] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. Whats to thank? It should have been fixed ages ago, and now that the whistle is blown they are pulling another T20.
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:29:00 - [93] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. Thanks for doing your job?
Zhang Ramses Chaos From Order Manifest Destiny.	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:29:00 - [94] Give us the dirty dirty details, CCP.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:29:00 - [95] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. That's because it appears CCP royally ****ed up and allowed it too happen for 4 years. This could very well have reshaped 0.0. The only way we'll know is if we demand a transparent and fully published investigation. Tell your CSM!
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari Quicksilver Industries and Painful Effects Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:30:00 - [96] quick! someone fly to delve and start screen shotting and petitioning all the [Bob] towers that [will continue to] remain in the same state. Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:32:00 - [97] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. That's because it appears CCP royally ****ed up and allowed it too happen for 4 years. This could very well have reshaped 0.0. The only way we'll know is if we demand a transparent and fully published investigation. Tell your CSM! They could have continued to allow it to happen. You are implying that they knew about it for 4 years - I haven't yet seen evidence that this is the case. If it were the case that they'd knowingly 'allowed' this bug to persist I would clearly be expressing a different opinion.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:34:00 - [98] Originally by: Underpaid Overworked Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. Whats to thank? It should have been fixed ages ago, and now that the whistle is blown they are pulling another T20. Yes it should have been fixed ages ago, you are right. My query is whether they knew about it all along. I will be as disgruntled as yourself if there is evidence is put forward that CCP didn't act earlier if it could have.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:35:00 - [99] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I haven't yet seen evidence that this is the case. If it were the case that they'd knowingly 'allowed' this bug to persist I would clearly be expressing a different opinion. The only people who could provide that evidence would be CCP. The whole system is starting to require a level of trust many are no longer willing to give.
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:36:00 - [100] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. That's because it appears CCP royally ****ed up and allowed it too happen for 4 years. This could very well have reshaped 0.0. The only way we'll know is if we demand a transparent and fully published investigation. Tell your CSM! They could have continued to allow it to happen. You are implying that they knew about it for 4 years - I haven't yet seen evidence that this is the case. If it were the case that they'd knowingly 'allowed' this bug to persist I would clearly be expressing a different opinion. Maybe because someone talked or found out, just remember the t20 stuff,

Lockheed19 Gallente Eve Defence Force Resurgency	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:36:00 - [101] Poor form. The very poorest of form.
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:37:00 - [102] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo they'd knowingly 'allowed' this bug to persist You better pick a side of the fence to stand on, as they have set preciedent with ghost training, a 'bug' they left in for years and only recently 'fixed' it. It's up to Internal Affairs now to put the public mind at rest, but it looks like some one pulled a 'Blagojevich' . -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:42:00 - [103] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. I'll be sure to thank them once heads have rolled, possessions have been impounded and disposed of, names named, corporations and alliances disbanded and moon mining been made dynamic to encourage legit mining to keep supply stable through normal gameplay. So far nothing is fixed, it's just out of the bag. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Anahid Brutus Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:43:00 - [104] Hey remember the years worth of ferrogel found in corp hangars of stations BOB lost in period basis during the Tortuga fiasco? Not such a great mystery anymore
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:44:00 - [105] How are you going to ban and "seize assets gained" from an exploit that has been going on for 4 years? This is seriously broken. Frankly this smells as bad as t20. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:44:00 - [106] Any hope of bailing out failing T2 producers because of the new higher build costs?
Amber Coldheart	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:46:00 - [107] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Yes it should have been fixed ages ago, you are right. My query is whether they knew about it all along. I will be as disgruntled as yourself if there is evidence is put forward that CCP didn't act earlier if it could have. Well, if 1. This has been going on at the length of time, and in anywhere near the scope that is being claimed. 2. with EVE having an "economics expert" working to keep an eye on the EVE economy, market fluctuations, big screens full of graphs, diagrams and pretty colors.. 3. The above mentioned "expert" failed to notice that more went out than was actually coming in (or in simple terms, stuff was created out of nothing), over a period of a claimed 4 years. Then you have 3 choices. 1. They did know, yet did nothing about it (as is being claimed). 2. They didnt know, and they were too incompetent to notice. 3. The whole thing is blown vastly out of proportion. Pick your choice :)
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:46:00 - [108] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. it is not like they have said they have fixed the exploit, just that they have removed some starbases and banned some people. . you'll never jump alone
Re Seller	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:47:00 - [109] CCP you fail lol what a bunch of morons 4 ****gin years? LOL things are going to become very interesting bunch of failures
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:48:00 - [110] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 10/12/2008 22:55:59 Quote: I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. I thank them for it, and thank them for removing assets which would've been gained from this exploits. Assets gained by my business to material reactors/miners. My well earnt ISK (and ISK subsequently of my customers) sunk by CCP because it went into the hands of an exploiter instead of someone legit. I know there's nothing CCP can do about that, but it leaves me feeling quite hollow about EVE at the moment, the fact that I was the business that earnt a bunch of exploiters a lot of ISK (144 billion ISK in fact) Improve Market Competition!

Serendipitously Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:49:00 - [111] Originally by: zenthral staichon I heard MM, RZR, TCF, GS, TRI, PL, BoB, Evoke, MH, SOT, AAA, RA, ROL, IRON, UNL will have their whole leadership banned, c/d? Furthermore, ATLAS are finally going to be the new powerbloc, I called it. No seriously, I doubt this could be kept secret so long alliance level. Maybe a handfull of peeps in small dedicated corp could pull it off, but not on a larger scale. Then again, the lows people are willing to go to in this game in order to gain an advance keeps surprising me, and I guess it is what makes this game so addictive Also, thanks for keeping TechII prices low...
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:51:00 - [112] Originally by: royal killer Everyone got greedy, and when they found out about this exploit, nobody said anything But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.) Sorry to burst your bubble. But did you have a look at dys prices BEFORE invention? Actually there were even free dys moons because it was just not worth to harvest those moons. There were only so few t2 items built compared to the time when invention became possible that the demand for those moon production were just very low. Invention changed the demand for these things drastically. So you only can really count from this point of time. Before invention those whole moon products were more or less unsellable and worthless.
Chienka Comply Or Die G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:52:00 - [113] Question is, who's gonna get B&? Also, how did kugutsumen not know?
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:54:00 - [114] Originally by: Amber Coldheart Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Yes it should have been fixed ages ago, you are right. My query is whether they knew about it all along. I will be as disgruntled as yourself if there is evidence is put forward that CCP didn't act earlier if it could have. Well, if 1. This has been going on at the length of time, and in anywhere near the scope that is being claimed. 2. with EVE having an "economics expert" working to keep an eye on the EVE economy, market fluctuations, big screens full of graphs, diagrams and pretty colors.. 3. The above mentioned "expert" failed to notice that more went out than was actually coming in (or in simple terms, stuff was created out of nothing), over a period of a claimed 4 years. Then you have 3 choices. 1. They did know, yet did nothing about it (as is being claimed). 2. They didnt know, and they were too incompetent to notice. 3. The whole thing is blown vastly out of proportion. Pick your choice :) It's a good point you've got there, much to think about. However, I feel I can't take a concrete position when I do not know the facts, so I'm supporting the issue in the assembly hall for a detailed disclosure about what happened and what is being done.
Monstar Caldari The X-Trading Company	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:56:00 - [115] I think it is quite a big exploit but I have the distinctive feeling that the matter gets blown out of proportion by some group which is crossposting all over alliance- and corporation forums about this in a very big and organized way (eve-o.de, xtraders for example). Besides I haven't ever heared about this before and noone else in the greater north either, no important northern person was banned till now and also I don't see 450 motherships floating in jita and no 100 titans either... so it all sums up "too much smoke for too little firewood". So my two cents: a small number of players exploited and either theyselves or their enemies are making a big fuzz about it now.
Bobbechk The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.10 22:57:00 - [116] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. sorry but... im not gonna thank anyone for a bad work well sure someone did a good job finally finding this bug, but it took about 3,9999 years to long.... ...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:00:00 - [117] Originally by: Monstar I think it is quite a big exploit but I have the distinctive feeling that the matter gets blown out of proportion by some group which is crossposting all over alliance- and corporation forums about this in a very big and organized way (eve-o.de, xtraders for example). Besides I haven't ever heared about this before and noone else in the greater north either, no important northern person was banned till now and also I don't see 450 motherships floating in jita and no 100 titans either... so it all sums up "too much smoke for too little firewood". So my two cents: a small number of players exploited and either theyselves or their enemies are making a big fuzz about it now. Chances are at least most if not ALL big alliances in the game are involved in this. So, no, it is not a political manipulation. Just supreme incompetence from CCP. They have already shown time and again that they have no clue neither interest of having such a clue about what happens inside their own company. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:02:00 - [118] So, what IS the actual scale of this? Until you provide us with some nibble, the SHC guy's word is perception, and perception is reality. -------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:02:00 - [119] Inbound threadnaught detected _____________________ R.I.P Old face
Tellnan Matkiel Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:03:00 - [120] All this knee-jerk anti-Bob hysteria is really very amusing. The original post in another place clearly aimed to stoke such hysteria, but the poster did not mention names. This leads me to suspect that either those corporations are relative non-entities, despite what the poster claims, and that this is an entire (and successful) attempt to stoke up anti-BoB hysteria - and if that is the case I would further presume the poster probably came from an anti-BoB group and is attempting a certain amount of protective cover for his alliance; or alternatively that the corporations alluded to in fact exist in differing, probably opposing alliances, in which case it is clear all sides are guilty. This presumes the original accuser is mostly telling the truth. Given the anonymous nature of the accsuation and limited information, I am not at all certain he is, either about the amount of money made or the length of time. Either way I am glad CCP has taken steps against this. I would hope for some more information at some point - but it is entirely possible that at this current moment in time CCP is unable to provide more information to us as it is still completing its own information gathering operations and investigations. I would prefer more complete information, than off the cuff information which might, on further examination, prove to be mistaken. The T2 market will survive. Yes there will be ramifications in that market, but really I see this as being no different from a massive fraud in real life that suddently distorts real-life markets. Indeed, I think this could make an interesting economic case study if one was that way inclined. We live in interesting times. It is a blessing, not a curse.

Crackuji	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:03:00 - [121] Quote: I've just spoken to a corpmate, who seems to recall bugreporting something like this. This would have been about 2-3 years ago. Newbs messing around with a POS, offlined some stuff to mess with it, and didn't put it back properly overnight, and found silos with stuff in the next day. Corrected the error, bugreported it, moved on. From SHC. That's potentially 2 people who alerted CCP to this
Van Krakien F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:03:00 - [122] quick, get a 700 billion isk bailout for the t2 carebears!
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:05:00 - [123] Well, appreciate the update Wrangler, and I look forward to a full explanation of what has happened and what the results were, but I have to admit that I am dismayed to say the very least.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:08:00 - [124] Its me I'm the exploiter -----------
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:08:00 - [125] 5th page in a threadnought There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:09:00 - [126] i demand a witchhunt! burn it, drown it!
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:09:00 - [127] Yeah, while we are at it, ban all members of BOB... and Goonfleet alliances... Free up a HEAP of zero sec and low sec space for use by new(er) characters! Regards, Jason Brisbane
Decimus Octavius	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:10:00 - [128] from eve-online.de comes this Quote: Hello Every one I would like to tell you a short eve story Today all of my EvE Online accounts were banned I was sure that this day would come. What surprises me is that it took CCP this long to catch up with me. Even though they knew about it. But now to the story: The time is November 2004. The EvE Universe is excited about the Starbase patch. The new System Sov. is introduced. The face of Eve has changed. How right they are. Two weeks after Patch day we built our first POS. We wanted a piece of the moon mining pie and also wanted to figure out how it word as none of us knew exactly. After our first try we were aggravated that we could get it working and decided to try again the next day to finish our project. The next day to our amazment we found that the silos in our unfinished POS chain were full. After a short time we found out the reason for this phenomenon. The POS system was BUGGED. Of course a petition was sent to CCP to make them aware of this situation and the answer was sobering. ôYour petition has been receivedö CLOSE But the phenomenon was still there. After a week we decided what to do. We built a POS network that included over a dozen POSÆs in lowsec and checked the market prices. After a short look we decided on Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. The Story today. The expanse of this so far is probably lost on most people so I would like to make a few facts clear. In the past 4 jears we are talking about ISK in value of 2.500.000.000.000 ISK to 3.000.000.000.000 ISK. ThatÆs 2500 û 3000 billion. Everyone that owns a T2 item can bet that it was build in part from resources due to this phenomenon. At this point I would like to thank CCP for making it possible to buy GTCÆs with ISK. So much about us. What the other 3 large alliances did with this knowledge is unknown to me. But I can tell you that weÆve sat with coverts in front of POS chains and watched it happen. Titans are expensive ! In closing. Some IÆm sure will say ôwell are you proud of yourself?ö or ôYou cheater-exploiterö I only have one thing to say to that. . This issue allowed me to play Eve how and when I liked. It didnÆt matter what item or what happened in Eve. I spent ISK with out thinking about the price. I havenÆt paid a cent for any of my Eve accounts for 4 years now. And have had many amusing moments reading posts in EVE-O. I donÆt know you and to be honest Eve and most of you I could care less about. But my thanks go out to you all, you were wonderful statistics on this virtual stage. Regards, The Writer Personally eve has been a struggle for me without free t2 bpos, devs on msn and free moon minerals for 4years. No wonder i have a hard time getting ahead in the game. Grats again on the third party site forcing ccps hand to act. Seems like nothing has changed since the t20 and other bs that this game is renouned for.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:12:00 - [129] Edited by: ardik on 10/12/2008 23:12:00 This certainly explains why bob has built over 24 outposts the last year
Aralis Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:14:00 - [130] When are you ever going to learn to deal with us honestly CCP? These problems fester because your response is ALWAYS to pretend it didn't happen. People aren't even allowed to say on these forums when they find exploits, let alone get them fixed. Deal with things honestly and everything would go a whole lot better. You have a horrible record here surely you must have learnt something from all these disasters? Tell us the scale of the problem, what happened, how many people got banned, how much money has been taken out of circulation etc. (No not names that's going too far.) And punish the guilty! Far too often those exploiting get away with it. Mostly it seems the worst thing that can happen to a cheat is he's not allowed to cheat any more. Stomp the cheaters flat! This isn't something anyone could be doing, repeatedly, by accident.

Loa Vaporator	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:14:00 - [131] theres no impact on T2 market, obviously ... and nope, prices for advanced materials in Jita have not hick-uped like they never did before! LOL I'm now only wondering how CCP will flatten things out ... by spawning 50 or more of dyspro moons? Thankfully, this only a game where you can MAKE things happen, not like in real life where things tend to HAPPEN
BullRadu Caldari R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:15:00 - [132] nobody reported this exploit till now. if anyone says he did or he knows someone that did... it's just lies to (maybe) get the banned players something as a reason for all this. it's really good that people are getting banned over this.
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:18:00 - [133] Originally by: Loa Vaporator theres no impact on T2 market, obviously ... and nope, prices for advanced materials in Jita have not hick-uped like they never did before! LOL I'm now only wondering how CCP will flatten things out ... by spawning 50 or more of dyspro moons? Thankfully, this only a game where you can MAKE things happen, not like in real life where things tend to HAPPEN well personaly I couln't care less for the t2 prices. But it has more to do with trust to the developers and with the petition service. See I though t20 was big, but this is like 200 times bigger and it goes now for 4? year. Come on I think we will se much more of stuff like this.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:18:00 - [134] Always fun to see rampant prejudice and ignorant fearmongering. Yes, I want to get to the bottom of this ASAP, and yes, it's one hell of a black eye for CCP if this is half as bad as it looks. But at this point, there's no organization on the planet that could have a full answer as to what happened, how, why, who was involved, and what the consequences are. Give CCP a few days to find things out before we start building a gallows with our outrage. Let them do their jobs, and then crucify them if they deserve it. Don't put the sentencing before the trial. ---------- Herschel's Lottery #3 - Win a Golem!
VaderDSL Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:19:00 - [135] Could this be an extremely clever ploy? Use this bug, which may not be the ferrogel bug (if it exists) and start mass panic and mass buying?
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:20:00 - [136] a cyno is up the threadnaught is here
Plexin	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:22:00 - [137] Edited by: Plexin on 10/12/2008 23:23:24 Originally by: BullRadu nobody reported this exploit till now. if anyone says he did or he knows someone that did... it's just lies to (maybe) get the banned players something as a reason for all this. You obviously don't read.
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:23:00 - [138] Originally by: VaderDSL Could this be an extremely clever ploy? Use this bug, which may not be the ferrogel bug (if it exists) and start mass panic and mass buying? was my first though too, but damn thats a little bit like the t20 stuff some years back
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:24:00 - [139] Military experts are calling this a ****up of gigantic proportions.
Seibicoe	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:24:00 - [140] Originally by: Armoured C a cyno is up the threadnaught is here I haz stront.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:26:00 - [141] Originally by: Loa Vaporator I'm now only wondering how CCP will flatten things out ... by spawning 50 or more of dyspro moons? Ever heard of alchemy? No? You do note need any of those rarity64 materials any more. They all can be replaced by rarity16 materials like platinum which is really abundant and accessable by tons of people. So ... no, they do not need to spawn any moons.
A Sinner THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:27:00 - [142] Someone said we should thank CCP for fixing this. If what that guy said on SHC is true the damage is done, there is no fixing cause the scale is huge. Imagine funding an alliance with that sort of isk coming from "illegal" methods and imagine the enemies of that alliance funding their ships and pos's from their own wallets with hard earned isk. The ships, the pos's, the stress and the hours and sleepless nights were all in vain, like spitting when the wind is blowing towards you. Imagine customers paying money that they worked hard for in real life, selling GTC's to this people for isk, so imoral. How can this ever be fixed by CCP? The most CCP can do is provide us with the information on who these people are and what corporations and alliances profited from them. So we'll know who to point the finger at and say : Shame on you !!! ----------------------- "There are no ugly women, just men who didn't have enough to drink"
Amjax	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:28:00 - [143] Would love to see a response on this from CCP. Come on guys, the longer the wolves wait at the door the bloodier it's gonna get.
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:28:00 - [144] Originally by: BullRadu nobody reported this exploit till now. if anyone says he did or he knows someone that did... it's just lies to (maybe) get the banned players something as a reason for all this. it's really good that people are getting banned over this. It has been reported, several times to my own knowledge over the past few years. But those were confusing times, IA did not exist yet. ≡v≡
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:30:00 - [145] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 10/12/2008 23:35:41 This calls for an utter and complete disclosure of the facts and the evaluated economical impact this exploit had on the game economy. If groups inside the leadership of alliances have conspired to use this exploit, not only their personal assets need to be frozen and eventually seized, but the executors and member corporations assets have to be held accountable in an appropriate and sensible way for any unfair advantage gained knowingly or unknowingly from this exploit. Personally at the moment I feel virtually slapped into my face, yet am trying to apply proper disbelief and skepticism until further information has been released. I applaud CCPs reaction, yet urge them to enage in active crisis management now, before the rumour mill becomes uncontrollable.
Sigvald Gottschalk	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:34:00 - [146] As a burgeoning industrialist I've had trouble. If this is as big as its being made out to be, I think I've found out why my margins were so low.
Jix Star Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:35:00 - [147] Originally by: Talsha Talamar before the rumour mill becomes uncontrollable. Not sure if it can be stopped now tbh. Need an official response ASAP.
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:36:00 - [148] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. You're right, how thoughtless. Thank you, CCP for your stellar QA team and programmers, without who this fix would never be possible. Or needed.
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:38:00 - [149] Name and shame!!!!!! Not that I care, I am just really really nosy :)
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:44:00 - [150] Originally by: Talsha Talamar This calls for an utter and complete disclosure of the facts and the evaluated economical impact this exploit had on the game economy. If groups inside the leadership of alliances have conspired to use this exploit, not only their personal assets need to be frozen and eventually seized, but the executors and member corporations assets have to be held accountable in an appropriate and sensible way for any unfair advantage gained knowingly or unknowingly from this exploit. I applaud CCPs reaction, yet urge them to enage in active crisis management now, before the rumour mill becomes uncontrollable. The impact will be neglegible tbh. The majority of the folks who entertained this crap over the years are the type who didn't give a crap about anyone but themselves. Organisations over the years had to provide for themselves, or learn to, or die, so that bit is going to be rather neglegible as well. ≡v≡

Lara Dantreb New Horizons	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:47:00 - [151] a few weeks go I received a message from a character who sold me around 450.000 ferrogel. He declared that he could supply me with more ferrogel easily by batches of 1.000.000 units and that he still had more than 18 batches for sale... unfortunatly I recently deleted his message, I just remember he was around one year old and that he had always been in an npc corp (alt) this just to say that I'm not surprised that an exploit was used : 18.500.000 ferrogel is the production from 64 POS in one month or from 1 POS in 64 months, anyway a really big amount
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:48:00 - [152] The carpet is looking lumpier. Bump for Dev update and stickpost in forums + client popup to bring this to the attentions of non-forumgoers There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
sturmi Liga Freier Terraner G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:52:00 - [153] CCP, how do you want to explain that the Community??? Publish all facts regarding to this BUG that all players can see what happened here!!! Look on our Killboard: LFT Killboard
Anti Excedrin	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:54:00 - [154] So when does that boxed copy come out again? Wonder if we'll be seeing articles in the NY Times about how awesome and great CCP is this time.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:55:00 - [155] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:56:00 - [156] Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 10/12/2008 23:56:31 vote for transparancy.
Jiremjahu Menasseh	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:58:00 - [157] Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug Oh, quelle surprise!
Kryztal Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:59:00 - [158] NAME AND SHAME ! public demands it ! - WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ! -
Berious Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.10 23:59:00 - [159] I think that guy who posted "Why no exploits in patch notes anymore?" just got his answer
Hail Xenu	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:01:00 - [160] Originally by: Kryztal NAME AND SHAME ! public demands it ! band of CHEATERS in damage control mode i see....

Kryztal Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:02:00 - [161] Originally by: Hail Xenu Originally by: Kryztal NAME AND SHAME ! public demands it ! band of CHEATERS in damage control mode i see.... Jealous much ? move on durty alt - WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ! -
Col Carter	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:03:00 - [162] Originally by: Kryztal NAME AND SHAME ! public demands it ! go ask Zeus ..
Taua Roqa Minmatar Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:03:00 - [163] name and shame, please. the playerbase deserves this much, we need to know exactly who was benefitting from this.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:06:00 - [164] Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug This is true because you say so? Gotchya. Or is it misdirection? I mean, we seem to have gone to a lot of effort securing top end moons .. or was that just a smokescreen to cover up our alliance wide reaction duping scam? But, you know what? I like that BoB still automatically gets the finger pointed at us. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Avalira Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:06:00 - [165] Originally by: Taua Roqa name and shame, please. the playerbase deserves this much, we need to know exactly who was benefitting from this. I think we'll know pretty soon when alliances depending on this exploit can't replace losses. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Its been fixed. All in all its one of the more embarrassing mistakes I made, but it made game design laugh. Now lets never speak of this again.
Ra Vhim Black Bag Ops	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:06:00 - [166] Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug Because you said so? Right... You guys blame them for everything from sun spots to hair loss. This mess is however interesting and I would welcome more information from CCP about the whole thing.
Kryztal Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:08:00 - [167] Originally by: Col Carter Originally by: Kryztal NAME AND SHAME ! public demands it ! go ask Zeus .. seeing as ive been fueling his POS's for the last 3-4 months .... I think im pretty sure those POS's were functioning like they are ment to function. - WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ! -
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:08:00 - [168] Originally by: Hail Xenu band of CHEATERS in damage control mode i see.... Srsly goons, you're not even trying anymore, you need to hire some professional spindoctors _____________________ R.I.P Old face
Drama Llama DramaLlamaDingDong	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:09:00 - [169] Well Evoke are in on this. I wonder who else will be. Keep an eye on tom mcash. See if he logs into eve in a Titan.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:10:00 - [170] Originally by: Kryztal Originally by: Col Carter Originally by: Kryztal NAME AND SHAME ! public demands it ! go ask Zeus .. seeing as ive been fueling his POS's for the last 3-4 months .... I think im pretty sure those POS's were functioning like they are ment to function. its propably within the eye of the beholder of what that means.

Athena Attom Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:10:00 - [171] ZEUS IS THE EXPLOITER IN THE OP!
Tholarim Amarr Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:11:00 - [172] Originally by: Athena Attom ZEUS IS THE EXPLOITER IN THE OP! IF ZEUS DOESN'T POST NOW IT'S HIM!
Kryztal Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:11:00 - [173] Originally by: Heroldyn Originally by: Kryztal Originally by: Col Carter Originally by: Kryztal NAME AND SHAME ! public demands it ! go ask Zeus .. seeing as ive been fueling his POS's for the last 3-4 months .... I think im pretty sure those POS's were functioning like they are ment to function. its propably within the eye of the beholder of what that means. Yeah ok its midnight and its been a long day ... gotta make it short and to the point ;) - WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ! -
Kryztal Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:12:00 - [174] Originally by: Tholarim Originally by: Athena Attom ZEUS IS THE EXPLOITER IN THE OP! IF ZEUS DOESN'T POST NOW IT'S HIM! wait we have two Zeus's ... Evol Zeus or BNC Zeus ? - WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ! -
Mankirks Wife Caldari Space Furry Association	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:23:00 - [175] I just want my T2 to stay cheap. I really don't care where it comes from. --- Originally by: tarin adur Also, cuz Sporks are like minmatar,do lots of things ok...but nothing spectacularly.
Kryztal Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:24:00 - [176] Originally by: Tobin Shalim How much do you want to bet that any BoB members that used this exploit don't get banned? 5 dollah - WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ! -
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:24:00 - [177] love it how people jump to conclusions before any hard facts have been givin do people want to scape goat that bad well we all know what happened in history when people started doing that
Crash Fhtagn	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:25:00 - [178] I just recently found a dozen Fermionic Condensates Reaction Poses owned by Reunion (AAA) that are suddenly offline for no good reason. Tsk Tsk.
No Homo Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:26:00 - [179] Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected]
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:26:00 - [180] I find it extremely hard to believe that anything concerning a POS has been able to operate consistently for 4 years. The things break themselves, and they used to be even worse.

Kulmid The Bastards	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:26:00 - [181] WTS: 165k of Hyperflurite =D _________________
Breaky Uzumaki Caldari The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:27:00 - [182] Originally by: Avon Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug This is true because you say so? Gotchya. Or is it misdirection? I mean, we seem to have gone to a lot of effort securing top end moons .. or was that just a smokescreen to cover up our alliance wide reaction duping scam? But, you know what? I like that BoB still automatically gets the finger pointed at us. Yes you'd almost think your alliance has a history of cheating and denying it. Hrmmm.
Vire Amarr Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:28:00 - [183] I hope CCP reaction will be fast and very effective. Moreover, i really hope they will not say like for the first pos bowling that as it was not a know exploit people will not be prosecuted ... CCP please act and be nasty with people that have taken advantages from this exploit. Please also put the CSM in charge of this. What ever character, corp, alliance have been using it please communicate about it. If one "organisation" have been able to do 3 000 B isk in 4 year what will be the official number if other people have done the same. Moreover, what will be the direct impact on the market because it really sound like the SUBprime in RL. Illegal money injected in economie in such ammount will have direct impact on mineral, tech¦, capital and so on. It is very likely that all item will skyrocket. CCP please do something. If needed close server for 48h to do correct investigations and banning of cheaters. Co-CEO Kernel Of War Vire Amarr Capital Inc Kernel Of War >> Faites face a votre avenir
Taua Roqa Minmatar Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:28:00 - [184] Originally by: Armoured C love it how people jump to conclusions before any hard facts have been givin do people want to scape goat that bad well we all know what happened in history when people started doing that Yes, I hate speculation too, innocent until proven guilty tbh. But we do want facts, and if names, corps, alliances, are not forthcoming then this will explode. If CCP want to save their game from pandemic mistrust they have to release who was doing this, because I know they know.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:28:00 - [185] just ask the devs in goonswarm to confirm this please ???
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:28:00 - [186] Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Originally by: Avon Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug This is true because you say so? Gotchya. Or is it misdirection? I mean, we seem to have gone to a lot of effort securing top end moons .. or was that just a smokescreen to cover up our alliance wide reaction duping scam? But, you know what? I like that BoB still automatically gets the finger pointed at us. Yes you'd almost think your alliance has a history of cheating and denying it. Hrmmm. You'd almost think that Goonswarm never modified the client en masse to show standings in local.
destinationZERO Minmatar Pain Management Services	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:29:00 - [187] A Serious Question to CCP: Do you liek mudkips? -- yes. That would be me, not you.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:29:00 - [188] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Originally by: Avon Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug This is true because you say so? Gotchya. Or is it misdirection? I mean, we seem to have gone to a lot of effort securing top end moons .. or was that just a smokescreen to cover up our alliance wide reaction duping scam? But, you know what? I like that BoB still automatically gets the finger pointed at us. Yes you'd almost think your alliance has a history of cheating and denying it. Hrmmm. You'd almost think that Goonswarm never modified the client en masse to show standings in local. Or that one person now equals an alliance. (Hi chribba!) Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Breaky Uzumaki Caldari The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:29:00 - [189] Originally by: Karille You'd almost think that Goonswarm never modified the client en masse to show standings in local. It's now a feature.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:30:00 - [190] Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Originally by: Karille You'd almost think that Goonswarm never modified the client en masse to show standings in local. It's now a feature. Because they couldn't prevent it.

Breaky Uzumaki Caldari The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:30:00 - [191] Originally by: Dianabolic Or that one person now equals an alliance. (Hi chribba!) Why dont you just MSN your friends about it?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:32:00 - [192] Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Originally by: Dianabolic Or that one person now equals an alliance. (Hi chribba!) Why dont you just MSN your friends about it? Because they all joined you guys. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Leigh Goslin	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:32:00 - [193] WAIT WAIT. Step 1 - stop people training while accounts inactive. step 2 - raise price of GTCs (afaik not sure on this one) step 3 - remove chuck norris POS facilities from the influence of the ingame market step 4 - keep it schtum! step 5 - massive crowd of players- "RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" " IM GONNA QUIT" step 6 - watch 2 people stick to their word and leave EVE step 7 - Profit. catch my drift? Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Ironnight Caldari x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:33:00 - [194] I hope its untrue that the first petiton was filed 4 years ago, otherwise epic fail CCP They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap ' Doomsday
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:33:00 - [195] Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Yes you'd almost think your alliance has a history of cheating and denying it. Hrmmm. Thank goodness the goons, an obviously unbiased source, are here to inform the EVE community who the real exploiters are with their endless supply of evidence Ohwait _____________________ R.I.P Old face
Breaky Uzumaki Caldari The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:34:00 - [196] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Originally by: Dianabolic Or that one person now equals an alliance. (Hi chribba!) Why dont you just MSN your friends about it? Because they all joined you guys. ahhahahah this is the only good post youve ever made
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:34:00 - [197] bored anyone welcome to have my msn , convo ingame
Breaky Uzumaki Caldari The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:35:00 - [198] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Yes you'd almost think your alliance has a history of cheating and denying it. Hrmmm. Thank goodness the goons, an obviously unbiased source, are here to inform the EVE community who the real exploiters are with their endless supply of evidence Ohwait Yeah its not like CCP wrote a whole article about it or formed an internal affairs division or anything. No way. Nothing ever happened. But those dirty goons, those dirty filthy goon s****and their lies...
Lara Dantreb New Horizons	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:35:00 - [199] Link to a cheater explaining what he did
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:38:00 - [200] The BoB damage control, misdirection and personal attacks. Oh this is sweet There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had

Solostrom	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:38:00 - [201] Putting 1 or 2 accounts for each alliance into Ban doesn't remove what has been a obscene exploit for 4 years! Is this why BoB, GS, AAA, have been able to field Titans forever.... I DEMAND that the ISK penalty be applied to any alliance who used it!
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:39:00 - [202] Originally by: RedSplat The BoB damage control, misdirection and personal attacks. Oh this is sweet wow did you copy and paste that all by yourself ? now roll over ?
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:39:00 - [203] Too many logical fallacies make forum explode. ---- Welcome to the EVE Onlne forums, a low IQ society.
SchirmerN Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:39:00 - [204] Originally by: Ironnight I hope its untrue that the first petiton was filed 4 years ago, otherwise epic fail CCP
Ibayd Te'Jori Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:39:00 - [205] Merry Christmas from EVE! You're all banned CCP
Rutger Centemus Joint Empire Squad	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:40:00 - [206] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Everyone is saying 4 years this 4 years that. This information came from an anonymous, banned, and disgruntled exploiter. I know, that I have not been around long and that CCP has a shady history, but rumors are just that rumors, even if CCP declines to make statement at this point in time. Slade Supporting this. 1) To all trolls and **s: CAOD ---------> THAT WAY. THIS ISN'T CAOD. 2) CCP, please explain what happened, and at least give some insight in the measures you took / are taking to 'correct' this (as far as possible). 3) Name and shame (which CCP doesn't always seem to do, but hey) should be applied, imho. Originally by:** Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
VCBee 516	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:40:00 - [207] Originally by: Solostrom Putting 1 or 2 accounts for each alliance into Ban doesn't remove what has been a obscene exploit for 4 years! Is this why BoB, GS, AAA, have been able to field Titans forever.... I DEMAND that the ISK penalty be applied to any alliance who used it! The exploit was started over a year before GS ever existed. Hell outside of 1-2 worthwhile moons in syndicate we didnt even start moon mining in earnest till about 2 years ago.
Solostrom	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:40:00 - [208] Originally by: Solostrom Putting 1 or 2 accounts for each alliance into Ban doesn't remove what has been a obscene exploit for 4 years! Is this why BoB, GS, AAA, have been able to field Titans forever.... I DEMAND that the ISK penalty be applied to any alliance who used it! Demand Perma ban on any account who used it... not just the alts... every account associated! You **ing *holes!
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:41:00 - [209] Now that it's finally tackled, lock it down and move on >.< ≡v≡
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:41:00 - [210] Originally by: Solostrom Originally by: Solostrom Putting 1 or 2 accounts for each alliance into Ban doesn't remove what has been a obscene exploit for 4 years! Is this why BoB, GS, AAA, have been able to field Titans forever.... I DEMAND that the ISK penalty be applied to any alliance who used it! Demand Perma ban on any account who used it... not just the alts... every account associated! You **ing *holes! i like your thinking , BTW have you ever brought any T2 items as if you have under you scheme then you would be purmabanned too, Merry christmas

Solostrom	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:43:00 - [211] and where in the hell was Internal affairs group in this u useless fricking butt pirates?!?
Helfix Caldari Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:43:00 - [212] Does it not make more sense that the people running around like chickens without their heads pointing fingers are the ones who have been using this exploit? lol @ Goons -Helfix
Sentinel Eeex Caldari DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:44:00 - [213] Originally by: Solostrom Putting 1 or 2 accounts for each alliance into Ban doesn't remove what has been a obscene exploit for 4 years! Is this why BoB, GS, AAA, have been able to field Titans forever.... I DEMAND that the ISK penalty be applied to any alliance who used it! I certainly hope the GS in your post refers to GoonSwarm
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:44:00 - [214] Originally by: Solostrom and where in the hell was Internal affairs group in this u useless fricking butt pirates?!? internal affairs were managing pos'es
Amber Coldheart	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:44:00 - [215] Originally by: Solostrom and where in the hell was Internal affairs group in this u useless fricking butt pirates?!? They were too busy hauling moon miner...oh wait
Astasia Orian Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:44:00 - [216] roflcopters (with gold plated rotors)
Breaky Uzumaki Caldari The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:45:00 - [217] Originally by: Helfix Does it not make more sense that the people running around like chickens without their heads pointing fingers are the ones who have been using this exploit? lol @ Goons -Helfix Yes we're one of the oldest alliances in game.
jeffb GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:46:00 - [218] Originally by: Solostrom Putting 1 or 2 accounts for each alliance into Ban doesn't remove what has been a obscene exploit for 4 years! Is this why BoB, GS, AAA, have been able to field Titans forever.... I DEMAND that the ISK penalty be applied to any alliance who used it! GS doesn't have that many titans, maybe 3 or 4 and built what 2 outposts in the last year? Compared to others building 20+ outposts and a ton of titans and motherships in the same time span?
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Quality Assurance Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:47:00 - [219] There is no real point in pointing fingers at anyone - sure Goons, BoB or other alliances may have, but untill CCP shows any indication of who. your just going to make this incident worse than t20 if the **** keeps being thrown around like this.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:47:00 - [220] think about the epic battles, and the epic fleets... how many victories were driven by an advantage that the opponents just didn't have... All the "player-made history"... we'll probably never know the who what where when and whys of it all. Very sad. Even more so if the exploit petitions were ignored. But then I doubt we'll ever know about that either.

Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:47:00 - [221] Golly gee.. More CCP fail-sauce.. Whoda' thunk it? CCP, if you don't ban a whole **pile of accounts over this, you have absolutely no credibility left, and you only had a little considering the other exploits and Dev cheating you've allowed** to exist in the game over the last 4 years. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Commander Yassir The Seven Sins	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:48:00 - [222] Edited by: Commander Yassir on 11/12/2008 00:48:29 HAHA dev trolled you all j/k APRIL FOOLS...oh cr*p.. wrong holiday The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:52:00 - [223] Originally by: Anahid Brutus Hey remember the years worth of ferrogel found in corp hangars of stations BOB lost in period basis during the Tortuga fiasco? Not such a great mystery anymore Care to explain how you got to look the content of another corporation hangar in a STATION? Or are you simply making up things to stir up trouble?
Maitsu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:53:00 - [224] Originally by: Math'ra Hiede There is no real point in pointing fingers at anyone - sure Goons, BoB or other alliances may have, but untill CCP shows any indication of who. your just going to make this incident worse than t20 if the **** keeps being thrown around like this. All the talk about t20 led to CCP actually doing something about it. As a goon I can say we are way more space ghetto than other alliances despite owning more space than anyone else (we're too dumb to exploit).
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Quality Assurance Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:54:00 - [225] Originally by: Maitsu Originally by: Math'ra Hiede There is no real point in pointing fingers at anyone - sure Goons, BoB or other alliances may have, but untill CCP shows any indication of who. your just going to make this incident worse than t20 if the **** keeps being thrown around like this. All the talk about t20 led to CCP actually doing something about it. As a goon I can say we are way more space ghetto than other alliances despite owning more space than anyone else (we're too dumb to exploit). fair enough then
Ion Bartzabel Caldari Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:54:00 - [226] Some math.. 4 years is 35040 hours of production of a pos. if ferrogel price was 30.000 isk / pu, and you would get 400 units per hour. 35040h x 400u = 14.016.000 units x 30.000 = 420.480.000.000b isk. Just to get an idea on how much isk we are talking about here.. This is ONE pos, and you could run whatever pos chain to get the same result produced. hence it's not just 3000 billion it could but muuuch much more. People could just run 15 poses each..
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:54:00 - [227] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Anahid Brutus Hey remember the years worth of ferrogel found in corp hangars of stations BOB lost in period basis during the Tortuga fiasco? Not such a great mystery anymore Care to explain how you got to look the content of another corporation hangar in a STATION? Or are you simply making up things to stir up trouble? station owner can look into corporation hangars. . you'll never jump alone
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:55:00 - [228] Originally by: Solostrom and where in the hell was Internal affairs group in this u useless fricking butt pirates?!? Have you ever tried emailing internal affairs? When you do , you will realise exactly what they are. They should just rename to PR, as they managed to convince pretty much everyone
Kryztal Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:55:00 - [229] Name and Shame ! public demands it CCP - WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ! -
Maitsu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:56:00 - [230] Originally by: Virtuozzo Now that it's finally tackled, lock it down and move on >.< yes, move on... don't ban anyone please... (don't look in our silos)

Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:56:00 - [231] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Anahid Brutus Hey remember the years worth of ferrogel found in corp hangars of stations BOB lost in period basis during the Tortuga fiasco? Not such a great mystery anymore Care to explain how you got to look the content of another corporation hangar in a STATION? Or are you simply making up things to stir up trouble? lol is this post serious? -----------------------------------
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:57:00 - [232] Edited by: Blackmarketbaby on 11/12/2008 00:58:48 ccp, if it's true that this was reported years ago you should fire your incredibly incompetent staff who should handle such instead of banning people doing what they can with the game. if this means that the state of the galaxy is more or less a bug - the whole game might aswell be considered a bug. isn't it worth to give us a little more information about this or is this the reason that you don't give anymore information? we obviously have spent money on a bugged software - you should reimburse us or **** off forever.
Maitsu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 00:59:00 - [233] Edited by: Maitsu on 11/12/2008 01:00:10 goonfleet.com leakzone "Does anyone remember in the Delve campaign us capturing a BoB station and looking in their corp hangar and noticing they had like 3 years worth of ferrogel or something stockpiled? Doesn't sound suspicious at all now." damn too late
Mildaria Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:00:00 - [234] it's me, i'm the exploiter itt!
Typhena The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:00:00 - [235] I'm sorry, but this is really weird I really hope to see a very nice clarification from CCP about this. --- Sig Under Construction
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:01:00 - [236] Originally by: Avon Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug This is true because you say so? Gotchya. Or is it misdirection? I mean, we seem to have gone to a lot of effort securing top end moons .. or was that just a smokescreen to cover up our alliance wide reaction duping scam? But, you know what? I like that BoB still automatically gets the finger pointed at us. Why aren't you banned yet? Hey, new name for your alliance: Band of Banned. Nice ring, dontcha think? ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:01:00 - [237] Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Yeah its not like CCP wrote a whole article about it or formed an internal affairs division or anything. No way. Nothing ever happened. I'm talking about the here and now - you can go back through eve-search if you want to relive T20 Quote: But those dirty goons, those dirty filthy goon s****and their lies... only basing it on the lack of evidence and obvious conflict of interest _____________________ R.I.P Old face
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:02:00 - [238] Originally by: Tobin Shalim Why aren't you banned yet? Hey, new name for your alliance: Band of Banned. Nice ring, dontcha think? unfortunately for you, jokes aren't funny unless they have a bit of truth in them. -----------------------------------
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:03:00 - [239] Originally by: Armoured C Originally by: RedSplat The BoB damage control, misdirection and personal attacks. Oh this is sweet wow did you copy and paste that all by yourself ? now roll over ? Sorry, not a BoB pet. There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Amjax	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:03:00 - [240] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Tobin Shalim Why aren't you banned yet? Hey, new name for your alliance: Band of Banned. Nice ring, dontcha think? unfortunately for you, jokes aren't funny unless they have a bit of truth in them. Sorry, which Dev are you again?

Astasia Orian Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:04:00 - [241] Originally by: Anahid Brutus Hey remember the years worth of ferrogel found in corp hangars of stations BOB lost in period basis during the Tortuga fiasco? Not such a great mystery anymore Yeah it was pretty awesome when we got all that back out when we recaptured the stations from failtuga. I have some stuff in AZN area that I want to get soon too!
Miss Xerox	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:05:00 - [242] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Tobin Shalim Why aren't you banned yet? Hey, new name for your alliance: Band of Banned. Nice ring, dontcha think? unfortunately for you, jokes aren't funny unless they have a bit of truth in them. True, I figger a dozen peeps might be banned, at most. Probably all of them alt accounts anyway. But yeah, the new BoB moniker is too fitting. Oh, and snag those super-rare faction ships & give them to people who actually earn them, not cheat their way to financial exclusivity.
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:05:00 - [243] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Tobin Shalim Why aren't you banned yet? Hey, new name for your alliance: Band of Banned. Nice ring, dontcha think? unfortunately for you, jokes aren't funny unless they have a bit of truth in them. Agreeing with the bobbit (however much it pains me) There are people admitting to using this exploit if you look, and it's not BOB.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:05:00 - [244] I was wondering why people would run POSes using fuel not found within 25 jumps from the tower itself. Guess I know now as gallente seems to be the one to use to maximize the isk/effort in this exploit The cool thing is.. CCP does backups every DT. Which mens they can just restore it to an inhouse server and do the proper thing. Offlining the stuff just before news hit the fan shouldn't let people off the hook because they got early warning from those 'in the know'.
Spathi Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:05:00 - [245] Originally by: Astasia Orian Originally by: Anahid Brutus Hey remember the years worth of ferrogel found in corp hangars of stations BOB lost in period basis during the Tortuga fiasco? Not such a great mystery anymore Yeah it was pretty awesome when we got all that back out when we recaptured the stations from failtuga. I have some stuff in AZN area that I want to get soon too! Don't lie ast, it was only like 2-3 months worth. I did the calculations when we were beating Zeus over it :P Go on, give it a press!
Tobias Lee Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:06:00 - [246] Hmm reply from CCP will probly go something like its not a bug its a feature we just considered it low priority until now but we have decided to remove ghost moon mining from the game. We have investigated this matter fully and in light of xmas 2 weeks away are taking no action whatsoever. Merry xmas ccp
Jix Star Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:09:00 - [247] Perhaps the patch was delayed as CCP had to upgrade the hardware that runs the forums due to the incomming Threadnought.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:09:00 - [248] Originally by: Ion Bartzabel Some math.. 4 years is 35040 hours of production of a pos. if ferrogel price was 30.000 isk / pu, and you would get 400 units per hour. 35040h x 400u = 14.016.000 units x 30.000 And there your math fails you. Ferrogel was actually worthless most of the time because the fuel costs of the poses to run the reactors were more expensive than the revenues from selling ferrogel and all the other stuff. No one wanted it because no one used it. Only 1/10 of t2 items were built most of the time during these 4 years. A few t2 bpo holders had the stuff, perfectly researched bpo's as well. And there was compared to now almost no demand for t2 because it was so expensive. Your 400 bil profit for 4 years for every large pos is completely out of scale. It might be 60 bil prt pod for the last year and 0 bil for the last 3 years (because no one needed that stuff). Still a big number and quite unfair, but not nearly close to 400 bil you mentioned. Furthermore ... everyone benefit from the cheap stuff. Except of course those big alliances who had all the control over the dys moons - they did suffer because they couldn't sell their products for the price they could have gotten. All others, especially those who use and buy t2 items greatly profited from the cheap and abundant supply of these materials.
LoneRider Minmatar Com-Star	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:09:00 - [249] Oh great, lets make a database rollback to 4 years ago... I was already there, who else? ^^ Ban each and every account which has made direct profit with this. In case it was alliance-wide: immediately freeze all corresponding alliance wallets, assets and stuff. Destroy the alliance itself and all corps within. Fire the ccp guys who worked on the petition. Let's blast this universe back to stone age again and start it all over again!
D'ceet Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:10:00 - [250] this is the perfect time for CCP to re-enable ghost training...it will take the focus off this... Originally by: Popperr I resent the insinuation that we have intelligence, artificial or otherwise.

Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:12:00 - [251] Originally by: Jix Star Perhaps the patch was delayed as CCP had to upgrade the hardware that runs the forums due to the incomming Threadnought. incomming threadnaught the threadnaught cynod in , in seige , gun linked dealing heavy heavy DPS, although it is pointed so it not going anywhere
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:13:00 - [252] I have always wondered who was intervening in the Dysprosium market. I could always see it artificially being propped up. No matter what hit that market it always stayed artificially high. Which brings me to a VERY disturbing conclusion. Wars may have been fought over dysprosium, not in order to sell it, but to keep it off the market so that it wouldn't crash the reaction prices. Otherwise, there is no need for this material, they can spawn all they want, why bother controlling it at all! This is seriously sick. It also means that anyone who is sitting on a dysprosium moon may be sitting on a material artificial price supports, and people were meta gamed, tracked down and harassed, some times in RL over this in order to keep the price unnaturally high. Whole alliances were crushed because of this. There is no way to know if there is a glut of materials, or a small supply, because its all a fallacy, a fabrication in order to channel profits to certain people. CCP needs to deal ruthlessly, swiftly and severely with these people. I think now is a good time for a "rogue drone invasion" to wipe out some areas of 0.0 space. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:13:00 - [253] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Tobin Shalim Why aren't you banned yet? Hey, new name for your alliance: Band of Banned. Nice ring, dontcha think? unfortunately for you, jokes aren't funny unless they have a bit of truth in them. Unfortunately for you, I'm not really joking. Seriously, how many POS's were BoB running in this fashion? What about the confirmed 20 in J-L that were setup EXACTLY as described in the scrapheap thread? ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Solostrom	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:13:00 - [254] Originally by: LoneRider Oh great, lets make a database rollback to 4 years ago... I was already there, who else? ^^ Ban each and every account which has made direct profit with this. In case it was alliance-wide: immediately freeze all corresponding alliance wallets, assets and stuff. Destroy the alliance itself and all corps within. Fire the ccp guys who worked on the petition. Let's blast this universe back to stone age again and start it all over again! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This
Chatea	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:13:00 - [255] OMFG YOU HAVE MORE PIXELS IN YOUR PIXEL HANGAR! YOUR PIXEL WALLET HAS MORE NUMBERS! WHY DOES JESUS LET THIS HAPPEN?!?!?!
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:17:00 - [256] Originally by: Re Mi I have always wondered who was intervening in the Dysprosium market. I could always see it artificially being propped up. No matter what hit that market it always stayed artificially high. Which brings me to a VERY disturbing conclusion. Wars may have been fought over dysprosium, not in order to sell it, but to keep it off the market so that it wouldn't crash the reaction prices. First somewhat sensible post since a few pages ago. ≡v≡
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:17:00 - [257] Originally by: Chatea OMFG YOU HAVE MORE PIXELS IN YOUR PIXEL HANGAR! YOUR PIXEL WALLET HAS MORE NUMBERS! WHY DOES JESUS LET THIS HAPPEN?!?!?! you posted in caps you also made jesus cry
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:18:00 - [258] CCP just need to fix the exploit and if certain peeps have been found to be using the exploit then lock down the pos's in question then it be fun if CCP hired a random bunch of players on a daily basis with dreads damage etc to take out the pos's and keep the proceeds. CCP just magics the the avenging fleet into the system(s) in question and clears the system of the offending corp/alliance or nosey bystanders whilst punishment is administered. Could be a concord busmans holiday type affair with normal players deputised to administer concords business. Bans not needed, its up to CCP to keep on top of these kinds of exploits. Perhaps the t2 market will revive to what it once was instead of dirt cheap and so plentiful that piracy becomes more viable in terms of loot collection from ebil bears.
Maitsu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:18:00 - [259] Ban everyone who's used it, they've probably bought timecards with all the isk and haven't paid a dime to play anyways.
Spathi Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:19:00 - [260] Edited by: Spathi on 11/12/2008 01:22:03 Aww, that troll post was removed. Go on, give it a press!


CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:20:00 - [261] Cleaned. Removed off-topic, troll posts, flames and those posts that quoted posts that were subsequently removed. Please post respectfully towards one another. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email

Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:20:00 - [262] Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 01:21:08 Originally by: Bodhisattvas Bans not needed, its up to CCP to keep on top of these kinds of exploits. And it's up to the players to maintain a modicum of integrity. Ban every single goddamn mother****er who's even glanced sideways at one of these exploiting POSes.
Helfix Caldari Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:22:00 - [263] Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki Originally by: Helfix Does it not make more sense that the people running around like chickens without their heads pointing fingers are the ones who have been using this exploit? lol @ Goons -Helfix Hey am just stating the obvious, who are the ones here by the dozens pointing fingers and etc? BoB or Goons? I don't really care for either of your sides, but if CCP ever did release the information am sure there are BoB members in there amongst Goons and many other major alliances.... It's nice to point fingers and all but if information comes out that your alliance is also one of the ones who used the exploit it will hurt you so many more times :). -Helfix
Mes Devour Blackwater Syndicate Shade Underworld	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:22:00 - [264] What a crazy exploit! I fully expect to be informed by CCP of the parties involved. Those parties should recieve harsh penalties. Anything less would be a complete dis-service to the eve community.
Maitsu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:23:00 - [265] Originally by: Madius Originally by: Bodhisattvas Bans not needed, its up to CCP to keep on top of these kinds of exploits. And it's up to the players to maintain a modi**of integrity. Ban every single goddamn mother**er who's even glanced sideways at one of these exploiting POSes. As I said, most of the people exploiting this probably haven't even paid their monthly dues since. If they abused this to get ahead of everyone else who's been playing fairly, they shouldn't be allowed to keep their account. I can see going easy on small exploits, but this generated an absurdly unfair advantage over people not doing this.
Eve Noir Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:23:00 - [266] Originally by: Madius Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 01:21:08 Originally by: Bodhisattvas Bans not needed, its up to CCP to keep on top of these kinds of exploits. And it's up to the players to maintain a modicum of integrity. Ban every single goddamn mother****er who's even glanced sideways at one of these exploiting POSes. I can dig it
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:24:00 - [267] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: Re Mi I have always wondered who was intervening in the Dysprosium market. I could always see it artificially being propped up. No matter what hit that market it always stayed artificially high. Which brings me to a VERY disturbing conclusion. Wars may have been fought over dysprosium, not in order to sell it, but to keep it off the market so that it wouldn't crash the reaction prices. First somewhat sensible post since a few pages ago. LOL So you produce 50 or 100 times the amount the moons will produce, literally flood the market with stuff and then buy off those people who flood the market in the same way you do? To finance wars to keep 1% more materials comming from a few moons off the market? Yeah...very reasonable indeed... But the more I think about it, the more I wonder why no one from the economic department noticed the huge amount of materials comming out of nowhere.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:24:00 - [268] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 11/12/2008 01:24:54 Originally by: Tobin Shalim Unfortunately for you, I'm not really joking. Seriously, how many POS's were BoB running in this fashion? What about the confirmed 20 in J-L that were setup EXACTLY as described in the scrapheap thread? I'm not sure how in-depth we can discuss it, but it looks like a pretty standard hands-free reaction setup to me. Unless you possess x-ray vision, I doubt you can determine who was haxploiting and who wasn't _____________________ R.I.P Old face
GateScout	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:24:00 - [269] Edited by: GateScout on 11/12/2008 01:24:44 Ah...now we know why the latest patch wasn't applied: BoB had to off line all those gallente towers in high sec.
Spathi Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:25:00 - [270] Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 11/12/2008 01:24:44 Ah...now we know why the latest patch wasn't applied: BoB had to off line all those gallente towers in high sec. Failed troll, cant react in highsec. 0/10. Go on, give it a press!

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:25:00 - [271] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Anahid Brutus Hey remember the years worth of ferrogel found in corp hangars of stations BOB lost in period basis during the Tortuga fiasco? Not such a great mystery anymore Care to explain how you got to look the content of another corporation hangar in a STATION? Or are you simply making up things to stir up trouble? lol is this post serious? Originally by: Xthril Ranger station owner can look into corporation hangars. As I have never been a station owner, I didn't knew this. So my question was serious.
GateScout	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:27:00 - [272] Edited by: GateScout on 11/12/2008 01:28:13 Originally by: Spathi Failed troll, non-BoB cant react in highsec. 0/10. [/quote Fixed? Hoiw about this? Ah...now we know why the latest patch wasn't applied: BoB had to off line all those gallente towers in j-l. Better?
Spathi Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:28:00 - [273] Originally by: GateScout Originally by: Spathi Failed troll, cant react in highsec. 0/10. Ah...now we know why the latest patch wasn't applied: BoB had to off line all those gallente towers in j-l. Better? Still failed troll, CCP already said they removed them. The J-L pos are still there (go check :P) -1/10 Go on, give it a press!
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:29:00 - [274] Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 01:28:54 Originally by: CCP Mitnal Cleaned. Removed off-topic, troll posts, flames and those posts that quoted posts that were subsequently removed. Please post respectfully towards one another. All posts that implicated our alts were cleaned.
GateScout	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:30:00 - [275] Originally by: Spathi Still failed troll, CCP already said they removed them. Except BoB's, of course. CCP give you enough time to change them over? Some things never change.
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:31:00 - [276] Originally by: Madius Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 01:21:08 Originally by: Bodhisattvas Bans not needed, its up to CCP to keep on top of these kinds of exploits. And it's up to the players to maintain a modicum of integrity. Ban every single goddamn mother****er who's even glanced sideways at one of these exploiting POSes. CCP let it happen by allowing it to happen.... they control the code and game mechanics. How many times do you hear morons uttering adapt or die whenever CCP messes with game mechanics. As far as I can see it was merely people adapting and using what they learned to get on in the game. This aint real life Mmmmkay ! Wash some chill pills down with a long cool drink of Quafe
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:33:00 - [277] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 11/12/2008 01:35:04 Hmm this could be a database glitch that selectively affected Ferrogel of course... Maybe someone could check other markets ? SHC mentions that it looks the same in the Forge. Screenie in the Domain a few minutes ago:
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:33:00 - [278] now it's much clearer why people would fit stuff like estamels modified ballistic control system on a crow or stuff like that :P
Spathi Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:33:00 - [279] Originally by: GateScout Originally by: Spathi Still failed troll, CCP already said they removed them. Except BoB's, of course. CCP give you enough time to change them over? Some things never change. I have shares in all the tinfoil production corporations, please, continue. Go on, give it a press!
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:35:00 - [280] Did CCP really think that we wouldn't notice them jacking around with the market price history?

Trebor Notlimah Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:35:00 - [281] CCP never ceases to amaze me!
durek magaliese	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:35:00 - [282] and i thought i was too damn poor was about to buy a etc and sell it just to keep up....
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:37:00 - [283] Originally by: Gnulpie But the more I think about it, the more I wonder why no one from the economic department noticed the huge amount of materials comming out of nowhere. Very simple if the exploit was being done before the economic dep started working. You generally watch for changes in trends. So if it was stable they would not study it so deeply, privileging what was shoving interesting changes.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council.	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:37:00 - [284] replying at the birth of a threadnaught (as ive heard that 10 pages = threadnaught status) Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:37:00 - [285] Originally by: Berious I think that guy who posted "Why no exploits in patch notes anymore?" just got his answer Yep, I think this pretty much covers it. I wonder where that thread went, I hadn't been on in a day, and I seem to have gotten one heck of an answer. ------ begin signature ----- Little known Eve fact, The original race names were: Amarr Empire, Caldar Empire, Minmatar Republic, The Jovians, and The Remanaquie Federation.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:38:00 - [286] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 11/12/2008 01:35:04 Hmm this could be a database glitch that selectively affected Ferrogel of course... Maybe someone could check other markets ? SHC mentions that it looks the same in the Forge. Screenie in the Domain a few minutes ago: -image- Actually that's just too funny to be true.
Dirtball PinK TacO Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:41:00 - [287] I think removing moon mins, t2 bpos, and titans would be a way to gain a 98% approval rating in spite of recent events.
Rhaegor Stormborn D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:41:00 - [288] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 11/12/2008 01:35:04 Hmm this could be a database glitch that selectively affected Ferrogel of course... Maybe someone could check other markets ? SHC mentions that it looks the same in the Forge. Screenie in the Domain a few minutes ago: Ferrogel Market in Domain Wow, what is CCP doing?!!?
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:42:00 - [289] Hey devs and their BoB alts reading this thread - Why did you alter the price history for ferrogel???? Inquiring minds on the officially permitted thread want to know!
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:45:00 - [290] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 11/12/2008 01:35:04 Hmm this could be a database glitch that selectively affected Ferrogel of course... Maybe someone could check other markets ? SHC mentions that it looks the same in the Forge. Screenie in the Domain a few minutes ago: Ferrogel Market in Domain Wow, what is CCP doing?!!? Great Entertainment... I so sincerely hope... It still could be a really really clever and sucessfull market manipulation attempt, someone noticing irregularities in some market statistics maybe attributable to database corruption, reads the "starbase exploit removed" notification and gets ingeniously creative... Kudos, should this prove to be true, btw

IslandOne	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:45:00 - [291] Seriously...more information required. MUCH MORE!! Since this is a "today" post, I would expect, we would demand, a much more detailed explanation as of tomorrow.
Vire Amarr Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:46:00 - [292] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 11/12/2008 01:35:04 Hmm this could be a database glitch that selectively affected Ferrogel of course... Maybe someone could check other markets ? SHC mentions that it looks the same in the Forge. Screenie in the Domain a few minutes ago: Ferrogel Market in Domain Wow, what is CCP doing?!!? More this story goes long the more it looks like the old communist system were numbers were not what they seemed ..... Trust Us you dreamed this story it is not true ... CCP will soon say that 1+1=25 and that e=mc¦ is my email adresse !!! LOL CCP is going to deal with this story the way bush dealt with irak good reason to go at war .... CCP once again epic failure to hide your incompetence Co-CEO Kernel Of War Vire Amarr Capital Inc Kernel Of War >> Faites face a votre avenir
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:47:00 - [293] Originally by: Dirtball I think removing moon mins, t2 bpos, and titans would be a way to gain a 98% approval rating in spite of recent events. Chill Beavis! I never sploited anything, I'd like to keep my tech II BPOs, crappy as they may be I won them. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:48:00 - [294] I wonder if that massive lag spike and surge of disconnects had anything to do with the database purge of ferrogel price history info? The plot thickens.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:51:00 - [295] Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 11/12/2008 01:51:59 not only the domain market is missing numbers: Ferrogel market in sinq laison
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Quality Assurance Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:54:00 - [296] Originally by: GuntiNDDS Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 11/12/2008 01:51:59 not only the domain market is missing numbers: Ferrogel market in sinq laison Kador region doesnt seem to have any missing numbers - I would post a Screeny but the list is a loooong one.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:55:00 - [297] Originally by: Spathi Originally by: GateScout Originally by: Spathi Still failed troll, CCP already said they removed them. Except BoB's, of course. CCP give you enough time to change them over? Some things never change. I have shares in all the tinfoil production corporations, please, continue. That reads as a yes to me. Anyway. As far as I can tell most if not all the major alliances knew about that bug. Actually it would be quite surprising is that wasn't the case. I'm just wondering how far back the server backups reach and whether that sudden surge in BoB posting activity means they successfully covered their tracks and were now let off the leash. I'm not implying that only BoB exploited the bug, or more than others. But I do think they're smarter when it comes to exploits. Now Goons and Bobits seem to just watch each other in these threads trying to make sure their side doesn't get the short end of the stick. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Solostrom	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:55:00 - [298] You all owe us a gigantic and clear explanation along with a long list of firings! Disco's, lagspikes, DB changes!!! What the **** is CCP trying to pull!
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:56:00 - [299] Originally by: GuntiNDDS Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 11/12/2008 01:51:59 not only the domain market is missing numbers: Ferrogel market in sinq laison Yeah, they claim to be out of the office and unable to comment on the issue, but they have plenty of time to tamper with price histories. Also, lots of manpower availiable to lock all the threads in general except the one where all the fanboys and BoB pets come out to suck up. Badly done, chaps.
Platinum Dragon	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:58:00 - [300] BUURRRN BOB, drag them before the mob that we may have blood

RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:58:00 - [301] Exploit exposure triggers price hike, those responsible suddenly have vast amounts of a resource that has suddenly increased in value. People are making a killing over these events, then suddenly market data gets removed. Given that any exploit that reportedly lasts as long as 4 years WILL have come to CCP attention things look fishy- would CCP have acted at all if that post on scrapheap hadn't been made? Similarities to t2 are starting to appear Good thing i bought more tinfoil recently, i think my hat needs another layer There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Stunna Shade	Posted - 2008.12.11 01:59:00 - [302] Originally by: Armoured C Originally by: Chatea OMFG YOU HAVE MORE PIXELS IN YOUR PIXEL HANGAR! YOUR PIXEL WALLET HAS MORE NUMBERS! WHY DOES JESUS LET THIS HAPPEN?!?!?! you posted in caps you also made jesus cry pixel jesus.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:00:00 - [303] Originally by: Ima Alt Originally by: GuntiNDDS Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 11/12/2008 01:51:59 not only the domain market is missing numbers: Ferrogel market in sinq laison Yeah, they claim to be out of the office and unable to comment on the issue, but they have plenty of time to tamper with price histories. Also, lots of manpower availiable to lock all the threads in general except the one where all the fanboys and BoB pets come out to suck up. Badly done, chaps. Quotin' dis for da truth ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:02:00 - [304] Utterly massive cheating and CCP wont even tell the players the scope of it. But then did you expect anything else. This is supposed to be an economic game and the economy is a manipulated joke. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Spathi Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:05:00 - [305] Originally by: Tarron Sarek That reads as a yes to me. Which just proves it doesn't matter what anyone says (with or without proof) you'll still not believe anything bob says. CCP has said they removed all the exploiting pos already, our pos are still up and working (go check!) which proves they weren't exploiting. Since you wont believe that you'll just claim ccp allowed us to keep them. Which proves my point nicely :) Go on, give it a press!
Lady Oracle	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:06:00 - [306] Placid is missing numbers on Ferrogel also
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:10:00 - [307] BIG THING: It's not just the ferrogel!!! It's ALL of the adv. moon materials. Seriously, go check out each and every single one. At least in Forge region, it's done for all of 'em, probably everywhere else too. ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:12:00 - [308] Originally by: Lady Oracle Placid is missing numbers on Ferrogel also In Domain, numbers aren't merely missing, they've been altered to make it appear that the ferrogel panic never took place. Evidence of lots of people's profits have been neatly taken off the books, no muss no fuss. It now reports that there was 512,002 volume with a maximum price of 27,000. The lowest sell order in the region right now is above that.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:12:00 - [309] While I may be missing the topic, if CCP really has any form of effective transactional rollback capability for their databases, the missing market history could be very easily explained by rolling back the market transactions by offending parties sales (removing the ISK they gained), without affecting the people who actually bought the ferrogel (which is a separate transaction). If this is the case, then the missing market history just shows how deep this rabbit hole of an exploit runs. Improve Market Competition!
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:13:00 - [310] Those crazy Icelanders ............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots.

Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:14:00 - [311] Edited by: Kulmid on 11/12/2008 02:15:09 Originally by: Ima Alt Originally by: Lady Oracle Placid is missing numbers on Ferrogel also In Domain, numbers aren't merely missing, they've been altered to make it appear that the ferrogel panic never took place. Evidence of lots of people's profits have been neatly taken off the books, no muss no fuss. It now reports that there was 512,002 volume with a maximum price of 27,000. The lowest sell order in the region right now is above that. nevermind _________________
Ja'Anarria	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:18:00 - [312] What CCP didn't say is that they've used their banhammer widely, and banned accounts and players who were in any way associated with the exploits, whether it was to their knowledge or not. I hope that they'll consider the petitions that some honest folk are submitting, and consider innocent until proven guilty as at least a possible guideline in these proceedings, especially given the gross negligence on CCP's part in letting this go for so long. This needs to be discussed widely, with all the facts in public. If CCP decides to try to control this conversation and the information around it, that would truly be a shame. A damn, dirty, facist shame.
Yaay Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:21:00 - [313] I once heard a guy in corp, shall remain nameless for now, that said he had a network of power friends that had over 2trillion in Assets. He also stated it funded a huge chunk of some relatively recent 0.0 politics. I always wrote it off as crazy talk...but it certainly fits the mold of the stories coming out quite well. There are certainly ways to make money in Eve, but they aren't done in these quantities legit by a single person or small group. It's the Economy Stupid
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:21:00 - [314] Edited by: Bodhisattvas on 11/12/2008 02:22:05 Originally by: Ghoest Utterly massive cheating and CCP wont even tell the players the scope of it. But then did you expect anything else. This is supposed to be an economic game and the economy is a manipulated joke. YI **ing WHAT!!! Shut ya faeces ya big ing carebear !! Its an internet spaceship game with many possibilities of stabbing folk in the face wiv pointy spaceships !!! economics is for the charlatans of rl. Now you gone and broke ** ccp !!!!
GateScout	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:22:00 - [315] Originally by: Spathi Originally by: Tarron Sarek That reads as a yes to me. Which just proves it doesn't matter what anyone says (with or without proof) you'll still not believe anything bob says. CCP has said they removed all the exploiting pos already, our pos are still up and working (go check!) which proves they weren't exploiting. Since you wont believe that you'll just claim ccp allowed us to keep them. Which proves my point nicely :) "There are no American tanks in Baghdad!" Is that you Baghdad Bob?
Kahrek Laume Gallente Infusion.	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:22:00 - [316] Wow, now the EVE economy truly emulates the real world markets.
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:22:00 - [317] So suddenly a lot of infinite-ISK folks have disappeared from the demand side of the GTC market. That's good news for the limited-ISK folks like me! How long will it take the stockpiles of reaction products to disappear? I wonder if this is why the quarterly economic newsletter was delayed?
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:24:00 - [318] Ok, so I don't know exactly what happened. The best I can gather was there was/is an exploit with moon mining. That this exploit was used by several individuals and three of the most powerful alliances in-game (I can think of one which is not unknown to controversy). I want to know the extent of the damage. Will this cause Tech-II prices to skyrocket? Will tech-II manufacturing become even more viable than it is now? What are the pros/cons?
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:24:00 - [319] Originally by: Kulmid Edited by: Kulmid on 11/12/2008 02:16:48 Originally by: Ima Alt Originally by: Lady Oracle Placid is missing numbers on Ferrogel also In Domain, numbers aren't merely missing, they've been altered to make it appear that the ferrogel panic never took place. Evidence of lots of people's profits have been neatly taken off the books, no muss no fuss. It now reports that there was 512,002 volume with a maximum price of 27,000. The lowest sell order in the region right now is above that. I'm assuming that's because this has just taken place, market data will update to reflect this at downtime. Unless I'm missing something. Well, the fact that these prices were correctly reporting before, are altered rather than just blanked, and only affect advanced moon minerals that were a part of today's panic seems to rule out a glitch. Well it does unless you are a total coincidence theorist. Fact is, you had an exploit that benefited certain parties greatly followed up by an alteration of historical data that again benefited the same parties. The guys who were doing these exploits weren't throwing up POSes with their mains - they used alts. Those alts are now banned, but the fruits of their exploitation could well be in the hands of the mains, who AGAIN, benefited from today's market panic. With the change to market histories, it was like all the crazy buying and selling today never took place. Some real life money was made in Eve, today, and CCP seems to be covering somebody's tracks.
Apaco lypse	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:25:00 - [320] haha usa economy sucks soo bad that we pulled down eve's MUWHAHAHAA

Marco P Really Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:27:00 - [321] Originally by: Kahrek Laume Wow, now the EVE economy truly emulates the real world markets. Does that mean now is a good time to buy property in Jita?
Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:27:00 - [322] Edited by: Fifinella on 11/12/2008 02:30:43 Originally by: Ima Alt Yeah, they claim to be out of the office and unable to comment on the issue, but they have plenty of time to tamper with price histories. Also, lots of manpower availiable to lock all the threads in general except the one where all the fanboys and BoB pets come out to suck up. Sheesh, calm down. It's midnight in Iceland, you think their board of directors is sitting in their office, business as usual, at that hour? The forum moderators have shifts to cover 24/7, but the actual working people in the corporation might have normal working hours. Which doesn't mean being at the office at midnight. And are they tampering with the price histories _now_, or did they do it during business hours? You obviously know. I don't. Edit: Oops, it's actually past 2 AM in Iceland now, the forum clock's on their time.
BloodyWomble	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:28:00 - [323] Originally by: Marco P Originally by: Kahrek Laume Wow, now the EVE economy truly emulates the real world markets. Does that mean now is a good time to buy property in Jita? Not really they'll do what they did in california and burn it down to the ground and blame it on forest fires and just claim on the insurance.
Szent AdamKiraly Banana.	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:29:00 - [324] 4 years? Hang on, 4 years?! Well i ****ing lol'd.
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:29:00 - [325] Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 02:29:58 Originally by: Fifinella And are they tampering with the price histories _now_, or did they do it during business hours? You obviously know. I don't. It happened about an hour and a half ago. Many people were watching the markets due to the advanced moon mineral panic that now apparently didn't happen.
Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:30:00 - [326] Originally by: Ima Alt Well, the fact that these prices were correctly reporting before, are altered rather than just blanked, and only affect advanced moon minerals that were a part of today's panic seems to rule out a glitch. Well it does unless you are a total coincidence theorist. I don't think there is any incorrect pricing going on here. The first thing I did when I saw this thread is log on my Jita alt to buy up all the cheap advanced materials I could. Unfortunately, it seems I had already been beaten to the punch. This is all I think is happening right now, everyone is buying it up to hold on to it till it becomes a bit more expensive. No hiding market data, no cover ups. It just simply is not visible on the market history as it has occurred in the last 5 hours. _________________
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:30:00 - [327] Originally by: Tobin Shalim BIG THING: It's not just the ferrogel!!! It's ALL of the adv. moon materials. Seriously, go check out each and every single one. At least in Forge region, it's done for all of 'em, probably everywhere else too. It's also all minerals, PLEX and some T2 modules, just from checking my market quick bar. So it could be 1. CONSPIRACY or 2. Completely normal market history glitch that happens almost every day.
Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:33:00 - [328] Edited by: Kulmid on 11/12/2008 02:33:59 Originally by: Ima Alt It happened about an hour and a half ago. Many people were watching the markets due to the advanced moon mineral panic that now apparently didn't happen. What happened? Do you have before this so called cover up, and after? All I see is a bunch of people buying up what they now consider to be cheap Advanced Materials, and are already beginning to resell them. Prices for Ferrogel have come down 2.5k in the last 2 hours alone. _________________
Apaco lypse	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:35:00 - [329] Originally by: Elisa Day Originally by: Tobin Shalim BIG THING: It's not just the ferrogel!!! It's ALL of the adv. moon materials. Seriously, go check out each and every single one. At least in Forge region, it's done for all of 'em, probably everywhere else too. It's also all minerals, PLEX and some T2 modules, just from checking my market quick bar. So it could be 1. CONSPIRACY or 2. Completely normal market history glitch that happens almost every day. it's every t2 item including ships
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:36:00 - [330] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Edited by: Bodhisattvas on 11/12/2008 02:22:05 Originally by: Ghoest Utterly massive cheating and CCP wont even tell the players the scope of it. But then did you expect anything else. This is supposed to be an economic game and the economy is a manipulated joke. YI **ing WHAT!!! Shut ya faeces ya big ing carebear !! Its an internet spaceship game with many possibilities of stabbing folk in the face wiv pointy spaceships !!! economics is for the charlatans of rl. Now you gone and broke ccp !!!! Noob doesnt realize 5 ships beats 1 ship. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.**

Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:37:00 - [331] Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 02:38:40
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:39:00 - [332] Please give us more details CCP. It will be a good read and will go well with my corn flakes tomorrow morning.
Solostrom	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:40:00 - [333] Originally by: Ima Alt Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 02:38:40 Market panic in full effect!
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:41:00 - [334] Originally by: Elisa Day It's also all minerals, PLEX and some T2 modules, just from checking my market quick bar. Wrong.
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:42:00 - [335] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Bodhisattvas Edited by: Bodhisattvas on 11/12/2008 02:22:05 Originally by: Ghoest Utterly massive cheating and CCP wont even tell the players the scope of it. But then did you expect anything else. This is supposed to be an economic game and the economy is a manipulated joke. YI **ing WHAT!!! Shut ya faeces ya big ing carebear !! Its an internet spaceship game with many possibilities of stabbing folk in the face wiv pointy spaceships !!! economics is for the charlatans of rl. Now you gone and broke ** ccp !!!! Noob doesnt realize 5 ships beats 1 ship. Taking this long to reply to my post makes anything you care to say purely irrelevant. Oh for gods sake shirley nothing you say is relevant
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:42:00 - [336] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 11/12/2008 02:42:34 Yep, when I checked Ferrogel in the Domain, I looked at the Fermionic Condensate data and a few other random advanced materials as well, to check for a pattern that would make a database issue likely, yet did not find similar irregularities as with Ferrogel. Else I would not have posted it :)
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:43:00 - [337] Fermionic Condensates have also had price histories altered to make it appear that a price spike never occurred.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:45:00 - [338] As I said, this holds true for all advanced moon materials (at least). ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:48:00 - [339] I had heard stories about organized crime being involved in virtual property sales, but until today, I didn't pay them much heed..
BloodyWomble	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:48:00 - [340] Heaven forbid any of you raving queens actually work in the financial sector. You guys are living proof why its such in a fubar state at the moment. I do admit to enjoying the funnylicious proceedings within this post.... Headless chickens went thataway → → → → → → then thataway ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔

durek magaliese	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:49:00 - [341] everything including frigates price history has been wipped for today
Rosalina Sarinna Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:51:00 - [342] Quite a suprise to see its been going on for years.... Good for CCP to tell us, but seems T2 everything will go up a bit for some time.
Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:51:00 - [343] Does it not take until downtime for market data to update? If this price spike happened in the last 5-6 hours, which it most likely would have because of this thread. Then it would not be updated yet. After DT, if they price spike still does not show, then I will agree it has been covered up. _________________
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:54:00 - [344] Originally by: Kulmid Does it not take until downtime for market data to update? If this price spike happened in the last 5-6 hours, which it most likely would have because of this thread. Then it would not be updated yet. After DT, if they price spike still does not show, then I will agree it has been covered up. It was showing, and now it is showing different - and only for certain advanced moon minerals. I sure wish that people who didn't know how to read the market history would stop replying to this thread.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:56:00 - [345] My favourite part of the story is how one of the guys who discovered it petitioned CCP, he was promptly thanked and the petition closed. Four years later he was banned. Nice work there. Any bugs I've reported in the specified format have been sent back to me for "not being the standardised format". Might be time for CCP to read unique petitions and bug reports more closely before ignoring them. http://obeythekitten.com/
Tai Paktu Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:56:00 - [346] Hey, lookit all the tickerless alts fearmongering and rabblerousing in this thread. It's pretty awesome. We'll get the details. Chill. EvE-Search is available if you'd like to revisit t20. You can't honestly all be convinced that the only 0.0 alliance aware of this bug was BoB. Oh wait, you can because you need a scapegoat. CCP's not posting here yet, so instead you villainize BoB because it's easy for you. I will eat my own hand if the only 0.0 alliance involved was Band of Brothers. And I don't even know if they were. How can you state that one person or one corp equates to the entire alliance being "in" on this massive conspiracy? But enough logic amirite? Let's all go back to throwing a hissy-fit about our internet spaceship money.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:56:00 - [347] Originally by: Kulmid Does it not take until downtime for market data to update? If this price spike happened in the last 5-6 hours, which it most likely would have because of this thread. Then it would not be updated yet. After DT, if they price spike still does not show, then I will agree it has been covered up. Price spikes was obvious, then there were a number of mass disconnects and at one point Sisi seems to have been not accepting connections following which market data first for ferroquel and then for all advanced minerals was altered. Then t2 price data was tampered with. Those are separate events that did not occur in the same timeframe. That evidence enough for you? Screens have been posted illustrating this There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:59:00 - [348] Originally by: Ima Alt Originally by: Elisa Day It's also all minerals, PLEX and some T2 modules, just from checking my market quick bar. Wrong. Uh... Do you want screenshots?
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 02:59:00 - [349] Originally by: Tai Paktu Hey, lookit all the tickerless alts fearmongering and rabblerousing in this thread. It's pretty awesome. Hey look at all the proud fanboys posting in hopes that one day they'll be let in on a dev exploit.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol Doctrine.	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:00:00 - [350] Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me). www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.quafeultra.com

Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:02:00 - [351] Originally by: Elisa Day Uh... Do you want screenshots? yes _________________
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:03:00 - [352] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me). Unknown. Suspicions vary, but the most common I've seen is that they're trying to cover up the advanced materials price spikes that occurred. Which is weird because why would CCP have reason to change market price history data unless it was to specifically cover up something? ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:03:00 - [353] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/12/2008 03:04:04 Quote: Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me). Originally by: Kylar Renpurs While I may be missing the topic, if CCP really has any form of effective transactional rollback capability for their databases, the missing market history could be very easily explained by rolling back the market transactions by offending parties sales (removing the ISK they gained), without affecting the people who actually bought the ferrogel (which is a separate transaction). If this is the case, then the missing market history just shows how deep this rabbit hole of an exploit runs. quoting myself but hey. Improve Market Competition!
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:04:00 - [354] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me). Either coverup, attempt to combat spoloiters taking advantage of market panic (odd given slow ccp response) or a Hamster on acid Pick one, make another up. Should be interesting to see Dev justification for selectively tampering with market data There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:07:00 - [355] Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 03:09:02 Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/12/2008 03:04:04 Quote: Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me). Originally by: Kylar Renpurs While I may be missing the topic, if CCP really has any form of effective transactional rollback capability for their databases, the missing market history could be very easily explained by rolling back the market transactions by offending parties sales (removing the ISK they gained), without affecting the people who actually bought the ferrogel (which is a separate transaction). If this is the case, then the missing market history just shows how deep this rabbit hole of an exploit runs. quoting myself but hey. I didn't reply because I didn't want to embarrass you, but obviously most of the players in this afternoon's market mania don't even own POSes, much less participated in the use of exploits. There were no rollbacks, everyone got to keep their profits. The ones holding ferrogel when the history got "adjusted" were left holding the bag and got screwed. They are now in a downward bidding war with each other. Will ferrogel prices rise again? Bet on it. However, at the top of this afternoon's bubble, some BIG sales came down the pipe, and record of those sales mysteriously vanished soon after.
Kauschovar	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:07:00 - [356] I sincerely hope that ALL those involved will get permabanned together with their alts and all their (in-game) possessions annihilated ... even if it does change the EVE political landscape which I think it will as it should. These people were mostly playing for free anyways by buying GTCs with their ammassed ISK, so it will be a good riddance from every possible perspective. Anything less would be a gigantic slap in the face for all those that have worked hard in the past 4 years just to get a little bit ahead whilst others have ammassed BPOs and every other possible thing that has any worth in EVE just by exploiting a bug. This will be a very important test for CCP to give EVE it's credibility back. This is not Currin Tradin or EIB ... this is 'knowingly' exploiting a bug that allows one to create somethign out of nothing (rather than steal or scam or whatever from another player). There are no excuses, no ifs and buts, and as a result there should be no mercy, and no leniency!
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:09:00 - [357] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/12/2008 03:10:11 Quote: Either coverup, Because a dramabomb answer is better than a logical one. Quote: attempt to combat spoloiters taking advantage of market panic (odd given slow ccp response) or a Hamster on acid Not an exploit to take advantage of a sudden surge in a market. Quote: I didn't reply because I didn't want to embarrass you, but obviously most of the players in this afternoon's market mania don't even own POSes, much less participated in the use of exploits. There were no rollbacks, everyone got to keep their profits. The ones holding ferrogel when the history got "adjusted" were left holding the bag and got screwed. They are now in a downward bidding war. You don't understand database transactions hey? Improve Market Competition!
Paedagogus Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:10:00 - [358] Edited by: Paedagogus on 11/12/2008 03:12:07 Originally by: Tobin Shalim Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me). Unknown. Suspicions vary, but the most common I've seen is that they're trying to cover up the advanced materials price spikes that occurred. Which is weird because why would CCP have reason to change market price history data unless it was to specifically cover up something? Perhaps they are trying to in some way prevent the markets collapsing when this reaches a head (dont get me wrong just speculating but that seems to be all everyone is doing) right now everyone is trying to do their own calculations on wtf is going to happen and no one really knows but what we do know is that even if this is a partial market manipulation tactic (the whole T2 mat thing not the changes to historys and yes i know thats so unlikely its accepted as being not the case) the effects will be felt for some time.
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:12:00 - [359] Originally by: Kauschovar I sincerely hope that ALL those involved will get permabanned together with their alts and all their (in-game) possessions annihilated ... even if it does change the EVE political landscape which I think it will as it should. Considering it takes minimal skills to set up a POS, the big alliance people who profited from this exploit almost certainly used alts. Rest assured, those throwaway characters 100% funded by GTCs were banned ruthlessly.
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:12:00 - [360] Originally by: Kulmid Originally by: Elisa Day Uh... Do you want screenshots? yes http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08!

RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:13:00 - [361] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Not an exploit to take advantage of a sudden surge in a market. I wasn't trying to say it was, but if for example the feroquel (sp) can be traced to a 'free stuff' pos then using it to take advantage of market panic makes a profits the proceeds of an exploit. There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:13:00 - [362] Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 03:13:02 Originally by: Kylar Renpurs You don't understand database transactions hey? You don't understand market dynamics hey?
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:15:00 - [363] Originally by: Elisa Day http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08! What region is that?
Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:19:00 - [364] Originally by: Ima Alt Considering it takes minimal skills to set up a POS, the big alliance people who profited from this exploit almost certainly used alts. Rest assured, those throwaway characters 100% funded by GTCs were banned ruthlessly. I think they'd be able to track things a little bit better than that. And unless they registered those account under a fake name, CCP will know who they are. The only way to really wash the ISK is to make it look like it was aquired in some way by force, and not by the alts just giving it straight to mains/corps/alliance. Or to run it through a series of market transactions, but to wash that amount if ISK would have an effect on the market. _________________
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:20:00 - [365] Edited by: Re Mi on 11/12/2008 03:23:23 Originally by: Tobin Shalim Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me). Unknown. Suspicions vary, but the most common I've seen is that they're trying to cover up the advanced materials price spikes that occurred. Which is weird because why would CCP have reason to change market price history data unless it was to specifically cover up something? The only market that really matters is Forge, its the main volume market. The other markets could be the same person selling at the same place for a week, so unless you have a before or after screen shot, I wouldn't put much faith in it. I have bought and sold to myself in order to set a regional average, I am sure a lot of other players have as well. I have also bought and sold to myself to both raise and drop the regional average depending on where I wanted prices to go. I don't think its time to call CCP out for something nefarious, especially without any evidence. If they were going to be nefarious, they never would have made this thread. But they did, so they are at least trying to keep this open. That said, they might be confiscating materials. I am not sure how you do an accounting of that, it would probably do something goofy in the market windows. If a significant portion of the materials are fraudulent and as yet unsold, or was sold to banned players, they could simply pull the materials off the server. Maybe this is what that looks like when they do it on a large scale, if that is indeed the case, which we don't know. My own belief is that they should just issue the patch they were already planning and just extend it a bit to deal with these issues, or possibly extend downtime, stop the speculation, and inform the players. And remember, these players probably actively manipulate the market, so they probably have a LOT of transactions that need to be taken back. I think now is a good time for a forensic audit of the EvE market, and a report on the Serpentis takeover of the Jita Commodities Exchange. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:21:00 - [366] Originally by: Elisa Day Originally by: Ima Alt Originally by: Elisa Day http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08! What region is that? The Forge. That's weird that the goods affected are different depending on the region. Hmm, mysteries abound! I stand corrected. In Domain, minerals are zeroed out, but advanced moon minerals had the "maximum" prices changed to eliminate the spike in the history. Also, PLEXes and every tech2 ship and module that I checked were not changed at all.
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari Quicksilver Industries and Painful Effects Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:21:00 - [367] Originally by: Ima Alt Fact is, you had an exploit that benefited certain parties greatly followed up by an alteration of historical data that again benefited the same parties. The guys who were doing these exploits weren't throwing up POSes with their mains - they used alts. Those alts are now banned, but the fruits of their exploitation could well be in the hands of the mains, who AGAIN, benefited from today's market panic. With the change to market histories, it was like all the crazy buying and selling today never took place. Some real life money was made in Eve, today, and CCP seems to be covering somebody's tracks. Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
GateScout	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:21:00 - [368] Originally by: Elisa Day Originally by: Ima Alt Originally by: Elisa Day http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08! What region is that? The Forge. The same thing is happening in Amarr...
Ima Alt	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:25:00 - [369] Originally by: Kulmid I think they'd be able to track things a little bit better than that. Legions of ice mining macroalts and real money traders disagree with you. I think it isn't a matter of CCP not being able to link alt accounts with main accounts, more a matter of them not bothering with it when 99% of the Eve population is satisfied with symbolic alt bannings. Sure, the exploiters/RMTers/macroers could use proxies and contracts to evade character linking, but really, if CCP even put up a moderate anti-alt abuse effort, it wouldn't be so widespread in the first place.
TYCONDEROGA Amarr Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:31:00 - [370] Originally by: Ima Alt Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 03:29:01 Originally by: Kulmid I think they'd be able to track things a little bit better than that. Legions of ice mining macroalts and real money traders disagree with you. I don't think that it's a matter of CCP not being able to link alt accounts with main accounts, but more a matter of them not bothering with it when 99% of the Eve population is satisfied with symbolic alt bannings. Sure, the exploiters/RMTers/macroers could use proxies and contracts to evade character linking, but really, if CCP even put up a moderate anti-alt abuse effort, it wouldn't be so widespread in the first place. /me looks at name of poster and laughs He who defends Everything, Defends Nothing!

durek magaliese	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:31:00 - [371] So i'm guessing just like in the real world the chinise server is going to buy us out?
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:39:00 - [372] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. Imagine if you learned the fire department had been giving away Molotov **tails. Would you tank them when they decided to stop? If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.**
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:41:00 - [373] Lolz you cant type "**tail" out its the word used for mixed drinks. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.**
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:44:00 - [374] well, after some research I think i have a fairly firm grasp of what happened, and I don't like it at all. It was a HUGE screwup by CCP, basically the result of inaction to something they knew was happening. Thats about all I can say. I'm still not satisfied with what I know, and my sources could be full of sh**, so might now more in as this plays out.
Blastil	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:47:00 - [375] STOP THE THREADNAUGHT! POWER DOWN THE ENGINES AND PREPARE TO BE BOARDED! Lets take a look at what we do and don't know. What we DO know: We DO know that a bug was fixed, or atleast shut down today. we DO know that poses and other resources were offlined and confiscated. We DO know that this bug has caused some market unstabillity. We DO know that much of this distress is caused by a post on the SHC forums by someone who supposedly engaged in the bugged tower fiasco for 4 years (how this man has the stamina to manage POSes enough to even spend the money he claims to have is beyond me). What we DON"T know: We DON'T know who's pose's were offlined. There is no offical or unoffical thread chronicaling bans, pos offlines, pos removals, or confiscation of ANY asets. We DON'T know the extent of the financial bubble caused by these poses. It could all be localized, since the mats we're looking at can be simply re-applied to construction within the alliances who produce the T2 goods. We DON'T know if the initial post on the SHC forums is even REAL, or just an epic troll, who sparked a flame war on the EVE-O forums. We DON'T know how long this activity has actually gone on. We only have the word of a supposed participant who refuses to identify who he is, or what alliance he's from. We DON'T know the actual ammount of ISK summoned out of nowhere from these POSes. It could be 5 mil, it could be 500 trillion. we simply DON'T KNOW. Before we all put on our Amarr hats, and join in the 27th imperial crusade against the foul CCP infadel and their BoB allies, lets take a step back, and remember, this news just broke today. CCP its self is still probably looking into the numbers. I bet you that more than a few CCP employees had to call up their dates tonight, and are missing out on some healthy exposure to icelandic women, all because of some exploit, so lets all calm down here. That being said, I'd like the report about what happened on my desk by tomorrow with a little more info than 'we found a bug guys!'
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:51:00 - [376] Nice, rumormill points to this being 4 years old now? Okay CCP, that banhammer's going to be busy, because if that timeframe is to believed, practically EVERYONE who's bought something off the market (read: practically everyone) is suspect and part of the problem. -
Riggor Khan	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:54:00 - [377] The real bad part of this whole thing is, CCP will ban a handful of people (mostly empire based) to use as an example and sacraficial lambs. The biggest offenders like AAA, TCF, UNL, BoB, Goons, Razor, MM, RA, etc will not be bothered. What is the point of even bothering with ccp any longer when they will tell half truths and can not even confess to something as simple as game lag. There is a new game about anyway, "Jump Gates". Maybe there it will be possible to get a little honesty and integrity. CCP seem to have a hard time remembering who the customers are and how their people get paid.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.12.11 03:58:00 - [378] Edited by: Re Mi on 11/12/2008 04:06:54 Originally by: Kulmid Originally by: Ima Alt Considering it takes minimal skills to set up a POS, the big alliance people who profited from this exploit almost certainly used alts. Rest assured, those throwaway characters 100% funded by GTCs were banned ruthlessly. I think they'd be able to track things a little bit better than that. And unless they registered those account under a fake name, CCP will know who they are. The only way to really wash the ISK is to make it look like it was aquired in some way by force, and not by the alts just giving it straight to mains/corps/alliance. Or to run it through a series of market transactions, but to wash that amount if ISK would have an effect on the market. Heres how it might work: How bout I rent space from you? *Isk washed.* I am both the renter and the landlord in RL, renting to my own alts who make fake reactions. Now I buy T2 BPO with my rent money and buy reaction materials from my renters (who are really me) so I can make T2 ships for the cost of T1, so I make even more money. Oh yah, now I hire some sucker carebears to build me Titans. The real problem is that CCP has to decide if that entire tainted income stream gets confiscated. In the past they have not done that. In this case, I believe, that those who have eaten from the poison fruit should die. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:03:00 - [379] Any alliance that had this going on in any POS should lose all their POS. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Alois Hammer Minmatar Dinochrome Brigade Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:06:00 - [380] Edited by: Alois Hammer on 11/12/2008 04:06:53 this is prolly gona be a "ban all chars on mr x's account.. which means the alts are spared if they were bought with the same isk but from other people. in that case alot of iskies is still prolly available . of course , if mains were involved , it will definetly raise some questions........... hey who has my old space?!?!?!?! :)

Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:06:00 - [381] I guess it's that time of the year again. Hello, winter drama! ____________
Lea Re Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:08:00 - [382] What should happen is not banning 1. Check who was involved 2. Check the amount of isk that was made on suspicious transactions 3. Deduct that amount from wallets 4. Check large donations to other players 5. Check stated donation reasons 6. Deduct that money from players that were given isk 7. make the whole process transparent to eve community it's a sad day for eve
Cur Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:09:00 - [383] It never happened. Continue shooting npc's and mining to earn your legitimate isk. Erm..MSN brothers, can I borrow a few trillion isk? Please?
Kaper Faulcon de Lazy Inquest	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:15:00 - [384] Not many of you checks the price histories after midnight eve time I gather.. The market history has always been several hours late doing the final sums for "yesterday" - for items with many transactions/large quantities..which is why the history for everything from tritanium to wrath cruise missiles over moon materials are late.. Calm down, have some dip.
Vitrael Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:16:00 - [385] Well, every time I start to lose my objectivity for this game and become entrapped in its awesome glowing lasor pew pew fantasy world, some hot new scandal comes and sends me hurdling back to ****hole reality at the speed of then thousand internets per second. Oh well... here we go again. I SUMMON THEE... THREADNOUGHT!!! -----
DelboyTrotter Trotters Independent Trading	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:19:00 - [386] Originally by: Lea Re What should happen is not banning 1. Check who was involved 2. Check the amount of isk that was made on suspicious transactions 3. Deduct that amount from wallets 4. Check large donations to other players 5. Check stated donation reasons 6. Deduct that money from players that were given isk 7. make the whole process transparent to eve community it's a sad day for eve This All the isk generated should be removed from the game, but via the alliance wallets that held sov on the POS's that were exploiting
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:22:00 - [387] Originally by: DelboyTrotter All the isk generated should be removed from the game, but via the alliance wallets that held sov on the POS's that were exploiting Of course, this exploit actually didn't "generate" any ISK...
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:23:00 - [388] Originally by: DelboyTrotter Originally by: Lea Re What should happen is not banning 1. Check who was involved 2. Check the amount of isk that was made on suspicious transactions 3. Deduct that amount from wallets 4. Check large donations to other players 5. Check stated donation reasons 6. Deduct that money from players that were given isk 7. make the whole process transparent to eve community it's a sad day for eve This All the isk generated should be removed from the game, but via the alliance wallets that held sov on the POS's that were exploiting If you removed all the money the keys players would all be Bliiions in debt and everyone in their alliances that got free stuff would still be ahead. the alliances need to lose all their POS immediatly. It turns out the entire EVE game is built on cheating. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:27:00 - [389] let's see.. did the person who was witness to this supposed four year old bug petition it? did any of you years ago? My thinking is there is just irrresponsible bashing going on here.. calm please. I'm sure the real details will surface in a news feed. In the mean time, all these questions are just plane not important right now. =====
Vitrael Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:41:00 - [390] test -----

Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:43:00 - [391] Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 11/12/2008 04:46:43 biggest kick in the **ts is knowing how hard you work will never compare to how hard someone else cheats. you'll never know.... did you lose a match/battle/fleetfight/station/system/region etc all because some guy had the code to get isk when you had to actually work (GRIND) to replace your stuff? i know ccp doesn't have a practice of discussing too much about stuff like this, but ffs we should hear SOMETHING estimating just how much isk is in the game because of this exploit and damn straight if they even THINK someone is related to it, and they also happen to have 900billion-37trillion-99gabolaizillion in their wallet, that isk goes bye bye. edit: oh, and lets not forget the assets. the pos's, the capitals and supercapitals... lets not forget the thousands of pos's that secure the regions and the massive fleets that defend them. oh, and i dont just want an estimate. i want to know alliance names. BoB? Goons? (wouldn't that be ironic), RA? (no, NOT RA! ), how about up north? name and shame. feed them to the angry mod. we are the angry mob and we demand it
Garrick Packard	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:46:00 - [392] Originally by: Ghoest It turns out the entire EVE game is built on cheating. You didn't get the memo?
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:48:00 - [393] When I lose a ship, i gotta go grind money to replace it I can haz free trillions from thin air please? ---------- Seasons Greetings and have a Happy Alvis Time
Tirym	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:51:00 - [394] Edited by: Tirym on 11/12/2008 04:53:02 Now... it's so complicated. The fact is that even by removing all isks from wallets would definetly NOT be enough, nor would the banning. The problem lies in the fact that ISK can be invested and so it turns out that without cheating someone couldn't buy T2 // capital // etc BPs of any form, or maybe could not win the battle for that system with so rich moons, could not finance this or that activity that generated X ISK... Nothing short of a complete reboot can fix this IF this has been going on for four years and IF more than 2/3 alliances did it. Even by wiping the entire 0.0 sov CCP cannot fix it: they could have invested in huge isk producing machines in empire or whatever... wow this is really a big turn around... and I think it's REALLY funny but probably because I'm a total casual (and crappy) player.
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:52:00 - [395] Originally by: Vitrael test I'm Sparticus!!!
IonHammer Minmatar Black Avatar Lost Sheep Domain	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:57:00 - [396] :) another day in paradise. If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:57:00 - [397] Originally by: Tirym Edited by: Tirym on 11/12/2008 04:53:02 Now... it's so complicated. The fact is that even by removing all isks from wallets would definetly NOT be enough, nor would the banning. The problem lies in the fact that ISK can be invested and so it turns out that without cheating someone couldn't buy T2 // capital // etc BPs of any form, or maybe could not win the battle for that system with so rich moons, could not finance this or that activity that generated X ISK... Nothing short of a complete reboot can fix this IF this has been going on for four years and IF more than 2/3 alliances did it. Even by wiping the entire 0.0 sov CCP cannot fix it: they could have invested in huge isk producing machines in empire or whatever... wow this is really a big turn around... and I think it's REALLY funny but probably because I'm a total casual (and crappy) player. a reboot would be ridiculous. however, if a regular joe can get a character banned for the HINT that he received illegitimate isk what is the reprocussions for this? will the people that did it get off the hook because it hadn't been discovered as an exploit? Or because it was rotten businesss will ccp be lopping arms and legs of some of the larger isk holders? (we probably will never know). It is discouraging to think there are/were legitimate alliances out there that probably got snuffed out by a 'better' one (better at cheating) ---------- Seasons Greetings and have a Happy Alvis Time
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:57:00 - [398] CCP will not name and shame... They will fix the problem, punish the idiots who exploited, and EVE will move onward
Yaay Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:57:00 - [399] Originally by: Lady Karma Edited by: Lady Karma on 11/12/2008 00:57:01 Originally by: Solostrom As for the use of this exploit, so far it has been evoke and MM admitting it. You can go on the witch hunt for bob and goons if you like, but there are guys raising their hands. err, did i miss something? It's the Economy Stupid
Goedekke Michels Caldari Rhinemetal Steelworks	Posted - 2008.12.11 04:59:00 - [400] Will CCP react in the same style they do with the Daisho Titan? Did CCP got the balls to remove every Titan from a big alliance build with using this exploit? Or will it just be banning 3 Hauler or Pos Alts per Corp/Alliance as they do normaly without harming "their friends"?

Sarah Elkadar	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:12:00 - [401] Players or even aliances will not be named \ shamed but this is massive. if what I am reading on other threads \ sites is even partialy correct this has huge implications. Since a POS is a corp asset were CEOS banned, corp members who received isk for the sale of the exploit materials. Were the people selling the product banned. Quote: assets gained from its use have been seized This seems a bit too general. This was a huge isk fountain, Short of a huge audit of the material sales I fail to see how you can say assets gained were removed. For other sites it seems we are talking about Trillions of isk. One person from scrapheap is estimating his gain was 3 Trillion over 4 years. Did every titan, station, and BPO from this exploit get removed? All corp assets locked and seized. Banning one person that was doing it is a start but I would be interested in a list of items seized as it would give an idea of how wide spread this was.
Harrigan VonStudly	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:13:00 - [402] If the poster on SHC is to be believed this is yet another allegation, rumor, whatever you want to call it concerning the deep seeded connection between CCP and (a well known 0.0 alliance) and their cheating ways. Full disclosure and apologies for the lack of honesty and insider alliance building with unfair advantages are due a lot of players. If it's true, of course. Of those banned, CCP, can I has their stuffs
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:17:00 - [403] Quote: Rumour has it that... I'm smelling a lot of rumor from this thread. Rumor is not usful. =====
Day Prichard	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:20:00 - [404] I am sure all of the traders that do data dumps for most of the t2 component pre-cursors will notice that there are some irregularities that exist between the manual data download (from prior days) and what the market is showing now. Interesting times we live in....
Farret	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:23:00 - [405] Rumor has it that ppl have nothing better to do then figure out rumors.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:36:00 - [406] Rumor has it that all of 0.0 will get rolled back to the state it was in 2004, including supercap production. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Aaron Static Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:37:00 - [407] RESET TRANQUILITY
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:41:00 - [408] Originally by: Ghoest If you removed all the money the keys players would all be Bliiions in debt and everyone in their alliances that got free stuff would still be ahead. the alliances need to lose all their POS immediatly. It turns out the entire EVE game is built on cheating. Our server that we play on has turned out there it is completely rigged. Without CCP slashing and burning down 0.0 to fix this I'm out sure how they could put this all back together. I'm not normal one of the emo kids, but I have to say that this is deeply disturbing and I'm not sure if I will continue to play, if I do go I will take the things and reprocess them with the chars. CCP, I don't think I want to play in your game anymore. With or without full disclosure.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:47:00 - [409] Originally by: Goedekke Michels Will CCP react in the same style they do with the Daisho Titan? Did CCP got the balls to remove every Titan from a big alliance build with using this exploit? Or will it just be banning 3 Hauler or Pos Alts per Corp/Alliance as they do normaly without harming "their friends"? wow you put to much faith in the new business model CCP has. CCP aren't cool anymore, they willbring down the hammer whille thier "friends" scream for mercy. At least thats what I would do to my "friends" if those friends where nothing more than people I meet in a game about spaceships, they don't know I' a dev remember? I just play with them, it's not ok to release my name. Suddenly I find out they have been expoilting MY GAME, those mother ****ers, it's on. At least that's what I would do I would lose faith in my friends.
Zaethiel D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:51:00 - [410] Originally by: Vigilant CCP will not name and shame... They will fix the problem, punish the idiots who exploited, and EVE will move onward CCP can ban their accounts but they can never take back the 4 years of unlimited money, their affect on the economy and politics, or any "contributions" to others. -----

Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:52:00 - [411] Sigh - another one of those silly threadnoughts where the tinfoil hats form insta-mobs. Rumor is taken as fact. Wild assumptions are made and reasoning abilities get self-nerfed. Typical aspects of your standard mob. A self-confessing cheater claims that something went on for 4 years. His words are taken at face value - while nothing CCP says gets any credibility. The source is somebody who claims not to care about EVE - but keeps playing for years. Why do so few see the obvious contradictions here? CCP is accused of having known about it for years - but not bothered to fix it. What could have their motivation been? None of this is in CCPs best interest. Self-interest is usually the best indicator of what's really going on. The fact alone that CCP did not act sooner makes it more reasonable to assume it either wasn't widely used during last few years - and that CCP simply didn't know about it until recently. Even the economic effects are wildly speculated without bringing much reason into the mix. Sure making up wild numbers is way more fun and helps if you like to predict doomsday now and then. 1) If we assume that it was widely used by large alliances - then the effects between them cancel each other. 2) It's silly to assume that prices for T2 components are one-dimensional and static. CCP would not notice an exploit for a long time when prices are roughly were they want them to be. If that is the case then without such an exploit CCP might have tuned some other variables - like BPC quality and number of runs, and/or material output etc.... Worst case - a bunch of cheaters profited from this way too long - but now get banned. Alliances profiting from this cancel each other out. Pilots everywhere (except some manufacturs) were happy about the prices - and the prices would have fallen anyway. Anyway - calm down - let the devs finish their sleep and give them reasonable time to get to the bottom of this. No - a few hours is not reasonable. Analyzing a large amount of data with care and doing something with that will likely take days. Expecting detailed reports while CCP is still working on finding out themselves is not reasonable. Assuming worst case scenarios on the unverified rumors by some is not reasonable. Assuming CCP guilty of incompetence or conspiracy until proven otherwise is not reasonable. As with all other previous cases of flash-mobs this will not be the end. Be reasonable. Try it - works better than you think. Bye to the 5-10 emoragequitters who really quit. Perhaps a bit less whining then. I don't want you stuff. And you'll need it when you come back. ;-) Some predictions of my own: 1) This is not the end of EVE 2) 0.0 alliances will not suddenly collapse 3) T2 prices will not explode in the long run. When prices rise more manufacturers will enter the market - creating new downward pressure. If current prices were roughly what CCP wanted then they can tune other variables. 4) Overall political and economic effects will be negligible beyond the short-term. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
jeffb GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.11 05:58:00 - [412] Originally by: Glengrant 3) T2 prices will not explode in the long run. When prices rise more manufacturers will enter the market - creating new downward pressure. If current prices were roughly what CCP wanted then they can tune other variables. How are people supposed to produce more moon minerals? Some other duping exploit?
Jesum Amarr Crimson Pact	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:00:00 - [413] Restart the servers, this is insane. If the RA were using this to make the mothership I scammed illegally which ended up in my 2003 character's wallet being set to -10bn isk I kinda want it back. This would explain why they didn't say a word about it, like nothing happened, when I took their Nyx. This is an outrage. ____________ [-..-] Jesum
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:05:00 - [414] Originally by: Jix Star Perhaps the patch was delayed as CCP had to upgrade the hardware that runs the forums due to the incomming Threadnought. qftw
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:08:00 - [415] quick way to drain isk out of the system is to simply encourage more pvp
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:10:00 - [416] I always thought moons were the new static plex. Little did I know how right I was. /Ben
1TheOneAvenger1	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:13:00 - [417] If I was CCP I would press charges. Might see some major fines and penalties for the perpetrators of the act.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:14:00 - [418] Logic says that the major power-blocks are the ones who benifitted from this, or they wouldn't be powerblocks. No names mentioned, You know who you are ! Wipe 0.0 clean, blow up all those titans. I am inclined to say that nothing but a server semi-reset will be close to fixing the impact this bug have had over the years.
C4w3 Minmatar Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:18:00 - [419] Edited by: C4w3 on 11/12/2008 06:20:18 I refuse to wordfilter R..E ,, T A ..R D --E D ANGRY INTERNET GAMING MOBS IRL are bad MKAY!
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:24:00 - [420] Originally by: 1TheOneAvenger1 If I was CCP I would press charges. Might see some major fines and penalties for the perpetrators of the act. Yeah, if this has screwed the game balance all up, and CCP loses tons of customers because of it's exposure, they might have a valid case in court....interesting.

Lucututerian Cataclysm Enterprises HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:28:00 - [421] i read about it on another forum, it was petitioned years ago but ccp doing nothing, and now ccp banned few players, sry guys from ccp thats FAIL. you doing a **** on the petition and then bann the player. how poor is that? WAR IS BAD, BUT THE SOUND IS COOL!!
Bud Johnson Tacos Revolution CODE RED ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:32:00 - [422] Originally by: Lucututerian i read about it on another forum, it was petitioned years ago but ccp doing nothing, and now ccp banned few players, sry guys from ccp thats FAIL. you doing a **** on the petition and then bann the player. how poor is that? Because we all know that everything written on the internet is true.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:40:00 - [423] Originally by: Bud Johnson Originally by: Lucututerian i read about it on another forum, it was petitioned years ago but ccp doing nothing, and now ccp banned few players, sry guys from ccp thats FAIL. you doing a **** on the petition and then bann the player. how poor is that? Because we all know that everything written on the internet is true. Unlike you, CCP fanboy, who think everythign CCP says and does is holy, there are a few people with critical sense. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Nemtar Nataal Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:52:00 - [424] This is just sick, how many alliances have been funded by this for 4 years while others have been working there asses off to to maintain there outposts. How many of the +100 titans in game have been funded by this exploit? How many of the outposts in the game have been funded by this exploit? Like already stated how can you CCP not notiss the influx of highend reactions on the marked? I can undestand that it can be very hard to compare numbers from a day, a week or even a month - but what about a quarter or a year have anyone ever bothered to check if the potential highend reactions ending up on the Jita marked was anywhere close to what was posible with the moons that was avalible in game to yield this reactions... Its incredible that the people who dont want to reimburse ships lost to lag or other wird game 'features' cause the action of reimbursing this ships might yield a unfair advantage to those people...how can you then miss this 'feature' for 4 F***G years. I didnt actually take the time to read the 14 pages of other peoples whines about this issue but to those of you who like me just read the first page and when last to POS and maybe raed a few comments along the way here is what the issue is all about. <EVE-Online 4 year POS Exploit> I really hope you CCP will addree this issue by remove any and everything that was ever funded directly by this money! Tbh i dont care if it is even my own stuff you remove - seeing as no one ever gave me a few billion for free i cant see how it would be. But anyway....plainly remove anything that tracks right back to this iskies - POS's, Outposts (yes im talking removing them from space.), Capitals, T2 bluepritns or just plain blueprints - Firesale everything and anything must go! One thing is for sure - Just removing the POS's that wore used for this and banning a few accounts is no where close to addressing this issue...**
TotensBurntCorpse Minmatar Shiva	Posted - 2008.12.11 06:56:00 - [425] CSM's time to step up. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:01:00 - [426] For breakfast should I have: -Cheerios -instant oatmeal (with cinnamon and brown sugar) -Cocoa Puffs -Trix Please take this seriously, breakfast is serious. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:04:00 - [427] Edited by: Kessiaan on 11/12/2008 07:06:35 Edited by: Kessiaan on 11/12/2008 07:04:09 I'm going to reserve judgment until there's an official announcement on this, but I have a hard time believing this has been going on for four years. ... but just in case it has I think I'll stock up on T2 gear now. But still, the whole 'four years' thing, I've only seen one person claiming it and he might just be talking out his ass so he can laugh at everyone going ape****, for all I know. This whole thread screams Internet Drama to me. ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa! -
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:06:00 - [428] Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 11/12/2008 07:04:09 I'm going to reserve judgment until there's an official announcement on this, but I have a hard time believing this has been going on for four years. ... but just in case it has I think I'll stock up on T2 gear now. This whole thread screams Internet Drama to me. Because such things never happened before, right? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:06:00 - [429] I demand facts ccp. we the paying customers who play the game THE HARD WAY! demand all questions told! who was the offenders. How much isk did they make Is it true ccp knew this 4 years ago ? What is being done ? Is any from ccp invovled ? Is it true its bob again ? if it is why hasent all bob leeders been banned 2 years ago by now `? we DEMAND to know these facts.....
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:17:00 - [430] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: royal killer Everyone got greedy, and when they found out about this exploit, nobody said anything But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.) Sorry to burst your bubble. But did you have a look at dys prices BEFORE invention? Actually there were even free dys moons because it was just not worth to harvest those moons. There were only so few t2 items built compared to the time when invention became possible that the demand for those moon production were just very low. Invention changed the demand for these things drastically. So you only can really count from this point of time. Before invention those whole moon products were more or less unsellable and worthless. actually, this is totally true. i tried moon mining before invention and you literally had to know someone who needed the stuff in order to do anything with it. there just was no market for moon materials. even in jita. so, go back two years and see who was exploiting this. i just wonderin if ccp will do anything...

Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:18:00 - [431] This exploit was merely a ploy by CCP to create a 'financial crisis' in EVE, to mirror the real world... This is going to make some really nice headline. ^_^
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:19:00 - [432] if ccp does the right thing they'll loose subscribers, if they don't they'll loose subscribers. they'll probably loose more subscribers by doing something like resetting the server (the right thing) - on the other hand they'll gain less new subscribers if they don't do the right thing. ccp, you have simply lost - and it's ironic that you bring this upon yourself. eve now reeks of ** and ccp stinks of horse. all reserved if you give us som **ING INFORMATION and prove we're wrong and it ain't as bad as many here has come to suspect, but then again, it's probably worse..
PROTOCOL	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:19:00 - [433] Quote: This is just sick, how many alliances have been funded by this for 4 years while others have been working there asses off to to maintain there outposts A post on the forums ran by the emotards of this game, by a banned player who is likely retaliating is the only indication of the length of this exploit. They had lot's of ferrogel in their hanger just doesnt cut it as proof. Why don't you wait to see what ccp has to say. Do all you tin foil hatters think that they can provide an answer right away? This came to light in the middle of the damn night in iceland, you know that place where ccp work and live. This will take an investigation, ccp doesnt have a button they can push to spit out a list like you all want. Sit back, relax and I bet when the facts come out it is nowhere near the scope that this mob mentality has made it out to be. But keep screaming, you all look like fools.
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:23:00 - [434] Edited by: Mara Rinn on 11/12/2008 07:23:54 I'm expecting the information we want will come out in the quarterly economic newsletter. After all, he was going to be reporting on the T2 marketplace. I suspect someone looked at the T2 production numbers, realised that 0 + 0 != 1 BILLION ISK, and called the devs in to ask some meaningful questions. However, why the problem with reactors continuing to produce stuff after the inputs have been shut down wasn't reported as a bug into their bug tracking system (and subsequently fixed), is still cause for concern. Fixing this bug should bring the market around a little to allow new manufacturers to break in with a lower barrier to entry, at the very least. edit: As for the billions of ISK accrued through sales of forged/exploited materials, I'm sure the folks who were relying on that ISK for their playstyle will come to miss that income very quickly. They'll have developed a habit for blowing up expensive ships, which will be hard to break.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:24:00 - [435] Originally by: PROTOCOL Quote: This is just sick, how many alliances have been funded by this for 4 years while others have been working there asses off to to maintain there outposts A post on the forums ran by the emotards of this game, by a banned player who is likely retaliating is the only indication of the length of this exploit. They had lot's of ferrogel in their hanger just doesnt cut it as proof. Why don't you wait to see what ccp has to say. Do all you tin foil hatters think that they can provide an answer right away? This came to light in the middle of the damn night in iceland, you know that place where ccp work and live. This will take an investigation, ccp doesnt have a button they can push to spit out a list like you all want. Sit back, relax and I bet when the facts come out it is nowhere near the scope that this mob mentality has made it out to be. But keep screaming, you all look like fools. Yes, you are right. Nobody is there, that is why all posts about it are being locked quickly and Wrangler opened this thread. And it is all probably a fabrication, like the T2 bpos created by T20. Oh wait... Try again Mr BoB alt. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
PROTOCOL	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:28:00 - [436] Edited by: PROTOCOL on 11/12/2008 07:30:50 Quote: Yes, you are right. Nobody is there, that is why all posts about it are being locked quickly and Wrangler opened this thread. And it is all probably a fabrication, like the T2 bpos created by T20. Oh wait... Try again Mr BoB alt. BoB alt I am not, I can assure you of that. And I missed the part where I said there was no exploit, in fact I clearly stated I think there is one, I disputed the time. I merely indicated that this tardmob, and you genius, should wait till ccp can look at the situation and provide a response. Have a nice day! PS CCP owned up to the t20 thing, albeit in a non-conventional way, additionally, he doesnt even work there anymore, he left recently to pursue his career with a different company.
McFly C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:31:00 - [437] If what I've read here, and in other mediums is true, Holy S**t CCP... that's big, I mean at least the t20 thing required a stimulation of the market by pulling in minerals and reactions to build for those T2 Missile BPOs. But this is just ridiculous, I mean this has the potential to break the market, It's been going on so long. Availability of the T2 products that required these materials is going into the drink fast. T2 Prices will soon skyrocket. I'm just amazed that you allowed this to go on so long, AND YOU KNEW ABOUT IT! I'm not leaving, I'm not quitting, no you guys can't have my stuff, but CCP I am disappointed in you.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:45:00 - [438] After careful consideration of the situation, I believe we're being trolled, as I stated in my now-locked thread . Some unidentified guy says he got banned for exploiting Ferrogel, then the exact same day Wrangler confirms it. While I don't doubt our mysterious poster did indeed get banned for the exploit Wrangler is talking about, I really, really, REALLY have a hard time believing it went on for four years. I find it much more believable it's a glitch that was introduced with alchemy and the actual fallout will be minimal once the forum drama dries up. ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa! -
Mecinea Lua	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:48:00 - [439] I'm sure CCPs records don't go back 4 years. We were told as much during the t20 crisis when they had to implement new tools to track things. As such we'll never know with 100% certainty that it has gone on that long, however I'm inclined to believe the reports that it has been going on that long. I do not believe the economic guru should be singled out as a target or that he should be held accountable. In fact the delay in his report could be related to this issue. Perhaps he was working out the numbers and discovered what was should not be possible. If as reported by members of several alliances and corps that various tickets were sent in reporting this issue over the past few years, then I do believe we need an internal affairs investigation to make certain that no employee of CCP was involved in complacency or outright cover up of this issue. The reports are from such a diverse group of alliances, who are not blue to one another and in some cases actively at war with one another that I tend to believe the reports. Let's not have another t20 incident. Let's get it out in the open, list all pilots so banned (just by pilot name) along with their corp and alliance tickers. If IA discovers improper actions by CCP employees list them as well. I only was able to get on for a couple hours yesterday so I didn't see how big this was til tonight. We may well suffer an in game economic collapse. However at the same time this could return profitability to invention for items that currently have not been profitable.
Yakumo Smith Gallente RSP Enterprises HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:49:00 - [440] Thread has been open long enough, time for CCP to put their communication plan in action :- 0. Don't let that bloke from the ghost training debacle post, get Wrangler even if he needs to be pulled out the pub. 1. Reveal news late in the Euro Zone (make people stay ujp late hoping for news, they will underperform at their work the next day and have more important things to worry about) 2. Make thread disappear just before 8am Euro time (use the we aren't hiding it, it's an accident approach) 3. Create a small thread pointing to the "lost thread" 7 hours later. 4. Lock new thread so it looks like no one cares about the issue. 5. Release a patch or unrelated Dev blogs (give details of next expansion early if possible, it keeps them quiet) 6. Wait till the rabble dies down then reveal the old thread again (we have to look transparent you know) I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually.

Mr Extra	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:52:00 - [441] I see how this exploit gave some players an unfair advantage where isk meant little to them and using all tech II ships worth billions was of little concern as they could be replaced easily. HOWEVER - the bigger question is what will the market do w/o the trillions in tech II reaction materials? Everyone remember gas in the US going from 1.49 to 4.29 in a year and a half... guess what happens to all tech II gear if the material prices double in the next month? From tech II drones, to tech II capitals (even the carebear jump freighters) will more than double. I am not sure the average EVE player is prepaired to loose billion isk ships while doing missions or use 25 mil tech II drones... not to mention a 250 mil Hulk... I don't know about anyone else, but I'm taking all my hulks and tech II gear off the market this week. I'll be hoarding billions of isk worth of tech II gear and ships that I used to sell until I see what happens in the market. No CPP we're not going away, but I see a major recession coming to EVE where the average player will loose much of their buying ability due to the 'fixing' of this bug. Check with your economist on the effects of eliminating a cheap resource that everyone relies on to the rest of the economy.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:53:00 - [442] Originally by: Blackmarketbaby if ccp does the right thing they'll loose subscribers, if they don't they'll loose subscribers. they'll probably loose more subscribers by doing something like resetting the server (the right thing) - on the other hand they'll gain less new subscribers if they don't do the right thing. ccp, you have simply lost - and it's ironic that you bring this upon yourself. eve now reeks of ** and ccp stinks of horse. all reserved if you give us som **ING INFORMATION and prove we're wrong and it ain't as bad as many here has come to suspect, but then again, it's probably worse.. Unfortunately, I think you can't be more correct in this observation. CCP does not dare to fix this problem entirely, as all those people who gained loads from this, will find EVE too hard to play, and eventually quit, because isk isn't flowing into their pockets like water down Niagara falls. I am pretty sure something is rotten within CCP, or this would have been stopped long ago. I also think that CCP won't tell us anymore than we could eventually find out ourselves. Damage control FTL. I highly doubt they dare do the right and honorable thing. CCP is a company, and a company's foremost interest is profit, nothing else.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:55:00 - [443] Originally by: Kessiaan I'm going to reserve judgment until there's an official announcement on this, but I have a hard time believing this has been going on for four years. The only official announcement you (or anyone) will be getting is the snippet at the start of this thread. Anyone who actually expects more from CCP is deluding themselves. This company has run roughshod over the playerbase plenty of times before to make me expect anything more from them this time around.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:57:00 - [444] Originally by: PROTOCOL Quote: This is just sick, how many alliances have been funded by this for 4 years while others have been working there asses off to to maintain there outposts A post on the forums ran by the emotards of this game, by a banned player who is likely retaliating is the only indication of the length of this exploit. They had lot's of ferrogel in their hanger just doesnt cut it as proof. Why don't you wait to see what ccp has to say. Do all you tin foil hatters think that they can provide an answer right away? This came to light in the middle of the damn night in iceland, you know that place where ccp work and live. This will take an investigation, ccp doesnt have a button they can push to spit out a list like you all want. Sit back, relax and I bet when the facts come out it is nowhere near the scope that this mob mentality has made it out to be. But keep screaming, you all look like fools. You sound more guilty than anyone in this thread, trying to stop people from complaining about an issue which has most likely has had 10 times more impact on the game than 9/11 had to real life.
Ekram Riz Minmatar Wyland-Yutani Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.11 07:59:00 - [445] Edited by: Ekram Riz on 11/12/2008 08:00:18 Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug Nice try to spin it.... At least try and post with non-Goon alt, someone might even beleive what you say. Word on the street is its some of the corporations in MM and MH are part of this.
Pr0Vaporizer	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:01:00 - [446] I agree with the idea that only a tranquility sovereignty and market reset will be the only thing that can undo most of the damage cause by this exploit. Players have been using this to gain an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for themselves and the corps/alliances they funded, While regular player were forced to fight against a force that had AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE In the four years this has been happening irreversible damage has been done and even those indirectly involved (corp members) have been able to gain unfair advantages. Some may say a reset is unfair but what about those who have struggled against the large alliances? How many wars and conflicts have been changed due to the near endless flow of cash the exploiting players (and their alliances) held? Resetting just the map wont fix the advantage of advanced implants that exploiters could have used to gain skill quicker than others as well.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:02:00 - [447] Edited by: Re Mi on 11/12/2008 08:04:31 Originally by: Baske You sound more guilty than anyone in this thread, trying to stop people from complaining about an issue which most likely has had 10 times more impact on the game than 9/11 had to real life. The 12/11 scandal? edit Ironically, this is the last day of my sub. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.*
Taua Roqa Minmatar Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:04:00 - [448] word on the street is the buses are ****.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:05:00 - [449] Alright, so be it. I'll step in and raise a few of my concerns regarding this. --- First and foremost, I have some questions I want answered. No, actually, I demand answers. Politely demand, but demand none the less. The following simply MUST be answered. Question To CCP #1: Is it true that you knew of this exploit roughly 4 years ago? If so- why did it take you so long to react to this exploit? Question To CCP #2: Roughly how many accounts have been banned? Question To CCP #3: What alliances were involved? Name & shame. No alliance should be let 'off the hook' so to speak. They exploited the game to unprecedented proportions and should suffer the consequences. Question To CCP #4: I think it's pretty obvious to everybody now that this exploit, over the years, has funded an untold number of 0.0 outposts, POS's, capitals, super-capitals, and perhaps more than that. How do you plan to deal with this? Question To CCP #5: You altered the price history for many items on TQ. This has, without a doubt, hurt your player-base. We are literally paying for the actions of a few. We're being punished. We're losing ISK. We're losing time. You have seriously hurt us by altering the markets in the fashion you did. How do you intend to make this up to us, the players? Question To CCP #6: This exploit, if used to the proportions being suggested, has surely had an effect on 0.0 politics. If wars have been won because of this exploit, how do you plan to address it? Will alliances be punished? Please clarify this ASAP. --- I don't have any further questions at this time.
PROTOCOL	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:05:00 - [450] Quote: You sound more guilty than anyone in this thread, trying to stop people from complaining about an issue which has most likely has had 10 times more impact on the game than 9/11 had to real life. You sir are certainly entitled to have an opinion on my opinion. As far as your referencing internet spaceships to an incident that cost thousands of lives and had a reaching and lasting global economic impact. Dd the world a favor, buy a bullet and rent a gun, short of that get fixed so your dumb ass can't reproduce for making what is quite possible the stupidist comment I may have seen on these boards in my 5 years.

rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:06:00 - [451] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. I just wanted to add a bit of irony. In the real world money has literally disappeared with financial's and banking disappearing or otherwise going bankrupt. Now in eve, trillons of isk are supposedly gained through exploitation. Luckily for us, no matter what the situation is in the markets, there will always be a base income until CCP changes it. There will always be missions to run.
Glasyra	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:08:00 - [452] Fanfest we talked about issues with making money with moon mins, the margins were small to nonexistant on almost everything and as a non exploiter doing the moon stuff for almost 6 months, I think I ended up with 2bil total. Keep in mind I carrier rated to get the money to buy a rorqual in about a month so the amount of work I put in to make T2 equipment components was HUGE and after a while, not worth it. (cost of time != value) I had 4 large, 3 med, and a host of small towers going mind you, I was lucky to see much profit after I counted the time spent making it work. What really gets me is the fact people were geting mins for free while I had to do it the hard way, basicly stealing from the honest producers. If anything the prices should go through the roof, real people will have to actully make the stuff now, if anything the exploit wasent limited to ferogel eather, apperntly anything would have duped (I wont say how its done) Ferogel was just the one that got found out.
Resetgun Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:18:00 - [453] It is very hard to believe that CCP missed bug of this scale frakking 4 years!!!! ... and I don't believe single second that they would have seized ALL goods gained from this bug. If they would seize all - entire economy would be fubared by now. "As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire
destinationZERO Minmatar Pain Management Services	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:20:00 - [454] Edited by: destinationZERO on 11/12/2008 08:20:35 Originally by: Resetgun It is very hard to believe that CCP missed bug of this scale frakking 4 years!!!! Keep in mind CCP missed out on a 'bug' of ghost training for 5 years, which was a widely known and used by the eve community... /me wonders what else is hiding in those POS mechanics... I'm pretty sure there's more interesting stuff to come :) -- yes. That would be me, not you.
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:23:00 - [455] Originally by: Baske Edited by: Baske on 11/12/2008 08:00:24 Originally by: PROTOCOL Quote: This is just sick, how many alliances have been funded by this for 4 years while others have been working there asses off to to maintain there outposts A post on the forums ran by the emotards of this game, by a banned player who is likely retaliating is the only indication of the length of this exploit. They had lot's of ferrogel in their hanger just doesnt cut it as proof. Why don't you wait to see what ccp has to say. Do all you tin foil hatters think that they can provide an answer right away? This came to light in the middle of the damn night in iceland, you know that place where ccp work and live. This will take an investigation, ccp doesnt have a button they can push to spit out a list like you all want. Sit back, relax and I bet when the facts come out it is nowhere near the scope that this mob mentality has made it out to be. But keep screaming, you all look like fools. You sound more guilty than anyone in this thread, trying to stop people from complaining about an issue which most likely has had 10 times more impact on the game than 9/11 had to real life. Time out you muppet !! how could you even imagine the impact of 9/11 and even dare to disrespect the people that died in comparing it to a bloody game economy. You and the rest of the emotards whinging about nothing need a reality check. **** really does happen and if your virual empire is destroyed because of whatever get over it! play another game or something!!
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:23:00 - [456] Hmm, why all this panic about a game economy collapsing, I mean someone can just edit a few database fields and our spaceships need half the materials to build if there is any real problems with shortages. Interesting times if you were quick enough to place your bet in the market game, might win or lose a fortune
Furb Killer Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:24:00 - [457] While i dont doubt certain people/corporations/alliances got rich by doing this, is there any reason to assume like many here do that it did have a significant impact on the economy, and that prices are going to skyrocket like some people want you to believe? btw lol @ the one who thinks servers should be reset now. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:25:00 - [458] Guys, CCP will offer a detailed post about it. A CCP DEV confirmed in an entirely different thread that CCP would release a detailed statement regarding this today. Don't ask me to find it ... I'm too damn tired. Let's give them time to wake up, have some tea, and get a game-plan together. *** I frankly don't give a damn if CCP loses subscribers for doing the right thing. They messed up and should bite the bullet. I think all null-sec Sovereignty should be completely reset. All capitals which were potentially funded by this exploit removed, and all POS's for the offending alliances deleted. Course', I am a hard-ass. *** Be patient. Let's see what CCP does. I'm sure someone at CCP is getting yelled at today.
Rock'n'Roll Lady	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:25:00 - [459] And i have been mining and grinding mission and ratting after getting my ship blown up to buy another one and all this while people were exploiting current system with full knowledge of CCP, i m pretty angry right now, CCP should backtrack and try to ban all who benefited from this and seize every item/isk that came through this. This is very depressing at same time and we want Full CCP response to this for **** sake here we are investing our RL time and/or money to subscribe and get items mined or isk grinding and people are exploiting it right under CCP nose. disgusting.. CCP
Solaris04 Gallente Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:27:00 - [460] not a surprise, kia whit an alt corp on iitanmadan have around 50 pos reaction and evoke 25+

Lyvanna Kitaen Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:32:00 - [461] Anyone remember this thread from a year ago? "Ferrofluid making a loss" http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=627156 It makes a bit more sense now.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:34:00 - [462] If the 4 year claim is true then it's pretty damn bad advantage for some groups. No wonder there were T2 BPO syndicates arising over the time. It will take serious effort (and most likely considerable game mechaniks overhaul) to try to fix massive advantages offered by this exploit. Complete POS overhaul and nuking of T2 BPO's would be good start, as while some BPO's are no doubt aquired in honest way majority of them are most likely involved in schemes with dirty exploit isk. I'm however confident that CCP are doing their best at damage control now that the issue has been risen into focus.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:35:00 - [463] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Originally by: Baske Edited by: Baske on 11/12/2008 08:00:24 Originally by: PROTOCOL Quote: This is just sick, how many alliances have been funded by this for 4 years while others have been working there asses off to to maintain there outposts A post on the forums ran by the emotards of this game, by a banned player who is likely retaliating is the only indication of the length of this exploit. They had lot's of ferrogel in their hanger just doesnt cut it as proof. Why don't you wait to see what ccp has to say. Do all you tin foil hatters think that they can provide an answer right away? This came to light in the middle of the damn night in iceland, you know that place where ccp work and live. This will take an investigation, ccp doesnt have a button they can push to spit out a list like you all want. Sit back, relax and I bet when the facts come out it is nowhere near the scope that this mob mentality has made it out to be. But keep screaming, you all look like fools. You sound more guilty than anyone in this thread, trying to stop people from complaining about an issue which most likely has had 10 times more impact on the game than 9/11 had to real life. Time out you muppet !! how could you even imagine the impact of 9/11 and even dare to disrespect the people that died in comparing it to a bloody game economy. You and the rest of the emotards whinging about nothing need a reality check. **** really does happen and if your virual empire is destroyed because of whatever get over it! play another game or something!! I dunno your being too serious m8. I'm an American and his comment didn't hurt me at all. It wasn't offensive either. I guess its because I see what he is trying to say, and I half assed agree.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:39:00 - [464] So ... as Chribba said ... Bin Laden is behind this whole moon scheme exploit thingy?
Bumbum George	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:46:00 - [465] OH HELL NO! Now whether all the outrageous claims are true or not, this "incident" shows once again what a drama potential Eve has As much as I enjoy all the forum hysteria, I'm afraid "an amusing time on the forums" will not be enough to attract some new players and justify 15 bucks a month. On the contrary the bad publicity might even scare of some of those scarce individuals. Oh and if the claims should really be true (which we will never find out for sure): shame on me for still playing this game!
Von Hinten	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:52:00 - [466] Edited by: Von Hinten on 11/12/2008 08:53:44 I want heads rolling. Ilost proberbly billions of isk for doing real reactions that other ppl just exploitet. Iam feeling so $º$º%º&º$34%$ OHH AND REMOVE ALL %$&/&%&%&%& T2 BPOS OF GAME THEY ARE ALL BOUGHT BY DIRTY EXPLOITER MONEY JUST A METHOD TO WASH YOUR DAMN EXPLOITER MONEX
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:52:00 - [467] Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen Anyone remember this thread from a year ago? "Ferrofluid making a loss" http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=627156 It makes a bit more sense now. That's actually pretty interesting. It is indirect evidence that the exploit was widely spread 1 year ago. I dunno about 4 years, was there even moon mining 4 years ago?
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.12.11 08:58:00 - [468] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen Anyone remember this thread from a year ago? "Ferrofluid making a loss" http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=627156 It makes a bit more sense now. That's actually pretty interesting. It is indirect evidence that the exploit was widely spread 1 year ago. I dunno about 4 years, was there even moon mining 4 years ago? t2 Ships and components were introduced in Castor, so yes they were around 4 years ago. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:00:00 - [469] Yes, moon mining was introduced 4 years ago, so the guy who made this public says this bug had been ingame and working since introduction of POS system at all. Makes me a very sad panda if true. Had a hard time earning my little isk to be able to buy me my little ships and CCP doesn't survey the big economy flows? What does this Mr. Economy professor do all day long at your company? At least admit that he is only working at ccp for a day per month...
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:03:00 - [470] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen Anyone remember this thread from a year ago? "Ferrofluid making a loss" http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=627156 It makes a bit more sense now. That's actually pretty interesting. It is indirect evidence that the exploit was widely spread 1 year ago. I dunno about 4 years, was there even moon mining 4 years ago? t2 Ships and components were introduced in Castor, so yes they were around 4 years ago. Castor was released in December 2003, but T2 components were agent mission rewards then... Moon mining came with shiva/exodus, released in november 2004, pretty much exactly 4 years ago.

Col Callahan Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:04:00 - [471] What has been done has been done and it has change the game in ways we will never fully know. Because this is a free economy were ever the exploit "black holed" the market will recover and go up do to the lack of supply due to the removal of the "BUG". I can't see a role back or any way to punish or take back what has been done to the game. As unfair as it feels, the ones who were doing it no long can or will be allowed to I think and the bug that has allowed them to stay alive this long will no longer allow them to be unbeatable because of unlimited amounts of isk flowing in from exploit land. In short, its unfair, it sucks, but are you going to log in tomorrow or are you going to leave. Ether way, I look forward to what the market does over this.
Makeme A'Billion Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:17:00 - [472] Isn't it funny that a big majority if not all of the people complaining here have one way or the other had or benefited from that "exploited" isk at any one time. Also quite possibly at least half the people complaining have known/been associated with someone who was doing it. Because come on, you cant all be so naive that you just think ONLY 3 "powerblocs" as the SHC post says knew about it. Either way, it's being "fixed" now be good traders and benefit from it
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:19:00 - [473] Originally by: Haas Tabris Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: royal killer Everyone got greedy, and when they found out about this exploit, nobody said anything But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.) Sorry to burst your bubble. But did you have a look at dys prices BEFORE invention? Actually there were even free dys moons because it was just not worth to harvest those moons. There were only so few t2 items built compared to the time when invention became possible that the demand for those moon production were just very low. Invention changed the demand for these things drastically. So you only can really count from this point of time. Before invention those whole moon products were more or less unsellable and worthless. actually, this is totally true. i tried moon mining before invention and you literally had to know someone who needed the stuff in order to do anything with it. there just was no market for moon materials. even in jita. so, go back two years and see who was exploiting this. i just wonderin if ccp will do anything... why do you think moon mining was not profitable? there was a good supply of basicaly free materials ? maybe that's it ? anyway this is quite fun ... just another little crisis in a fiction world ... the bets are that T2 items will increase in cost and t1 production will be worth a bit more as many people will not be able to afford T2 anymore. pirates will be happy, t2 loot will actualy make a healthy profit ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:22:00 - [474] Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki Yes, moon mining was introduced 4 years ago, so the guy who made this public says this bug had been ingame and working since introduction of POS system at all. Makes me a very sad panda if true. Had a hard time earning my little isk to be able to buy me my little ships and CCP doesn't survey the big economy flows? What does this Mr. Economy professor do all day long at your company? At least admit that he is only working at ccp for a day per month... I know a bit about the moon material markets including ferrogel, fermionic condensates and such. Only the couple of last weeks there were stupidly low prices for these and big sales going on. Before that the market was quite stable and fixed to the dys (and to lesser degree prom). A decoupling of price of produced items from the prices of materials need to build these items shows that something strange is going on. You can look at the market history and see that only in the recent weeks the price of those ferrogel etc. dropped heavily (and below production costs). Also: the prices for moon materials/moon products before invention were so ridiculously low that even some dys moons were not harvested just because no one needed that stuff. So those 4 years are hugely exaggerated. Because prices were more or less okay and coupled to the dys/prom prices until a few weeks ago I think that this bug is in game and abused since the alchemy introduction. What I wonder is why no one from economic department noticed anything. They surely have numbers about production and consumption? Also: can the economic department at least give now the numbers of pre- and post-alchemy production of ferrogel etc. Compared with usage of dys and usage of the dys-substitutes? Better they do the basic stuff first instead of some fancy trends and correlations and what now. Just plain old production and consumption numbers, please.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:22:00 - [475] Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 11/12/2008 09:24:16 Originally by: Makeme A'Billion Isn't it funny that a big majority if not all of the people complaining here have one way or the other had or benefited from that "exploited" isk at any one time. Also quite possibly at least half the people complaining have known/been associated with someone who was doing it. Because come on, you cant all be so naive that you just think ONLY 3 "powerblocs" as the SHC post says knew about it. Either way, it's being "fixed" now be good traders and benefit from it benefited? i think everyone but those directly obtaining the isk were victimized. it diminishes the game for everyone pure and simple. how do you know the exploit itself didn't play a large part in the formation (not from ground up, but as they are now), continued growth and preservation of the powerblocs we have today? sure x bloc has 2000 members, but would they had they not been so successful given such a strong economic backbone. would other alliances that did not have that advantage perhaps have prevailed in battles vs these entities without the exploit. would some have been able to bounce back so quickly from defeats.... it goes on and on and on.....
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:25:00 - [476] Originally by: Makeme A'Billion Isn't it funny that a big majority if not all of the people complaining here have one way or the other had or benefited from that "exploited" isk at any one time. Also quite possibly at least half the people complaining have known/been associated with someone who was doing it. Because come on, you cant all be so naive that you just think ONLY 3 "powerblocs" as the SHC post says knew about it. Either way, it's being "fixed" now be good traders and benefit from it I would speculate that all titans in game have some taint on them. Propably most T2 BPO's that are no longer in the hands of their originial winners also. Ofc I'm a bit agitated over this - even if this does not hit me directly, as the advantage gained thru that kind of operations seems from my perspective way massive. A lot bigger effect on EVE market propably than those T20 BPO's were - there was only like 4 of them afterall.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:26:00 - [477] I get this feeling the person who said they reported this 4 years ago was lying. I mean think about it, it's a dark horrible sceret, but most people wuldn't report it becausde they would be paid not to. SO basicly someone told the wrong person and BAM the dorrs blew wide open. I bet it was a player that was really a dev.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:27:00 - [478] This gives "The minerals I mine are free." a completely new meaning.... No wonder that there were quite a few T2 modules and especially ships priced below manufacturing cost. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:29:00 - [479] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki Yes, moon mining was introduced 4 years ago, so the guy who made this public says this bug had been ingame and working since introduction of POS system at all. Makes me a very sad panda if true. Had a hard time earning my little isk to be able to buy me my little ships and CCP doesn't survey the big economy flows? What does this Mr. Economy professor do all day long at your company? At least admit that he is only working at ccp for a day per month... I know a bit about the moon material markets including ferrogel, fermionic condensates and such. Only the couple of last weeks there were stupidly low prices for these and big sales going on. Before that the market was quite stable and fixed to the dys (and to lesser degree prom). A decoupling of price of produced items from the prices of materials need to build these items shows that something strange is going on. You can look at the market history and see that only in the recent weeks the price of those ferrogel etc. dropped heavily (and below production costs). Also: the prices for moon materials/moon products before invention were so ridiculously low that even some dys moons were not harvested just because no one needed that stuff. So those 4 years are hugely exaggerated. Because prices were more or less okay and coupled to the dys/prom prices until a few weeks ago I think that this bug is in game and abused since the alchemy introduction. What I wonder is why no one from economic department noticed anything. They surely have numbers about production and consumption? Also: can the economic department at least give now the numbers of pre- and post-alchemy production of ferrogel etc. Compared with usage of dys and usage of the dys-substitutes? Better they do the basic stuff first instead of some fancy trends and correlations and what now. Just plain old production and consumption numbers, please. The 'issue' was most likley not that bad before invention, bcos production was capped by the amount of T2 BPO's - However - it might have provided the exploiters needed initial capital to start T2 Syndicate by using those funds to buy additional T2 BPO's from the winners of lottery.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:33:00 - [480] ITT: Alts of banned players out for BLOOD. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan

Tai Paktu Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:34:00 - [481] Originally by: Aaron Static RESET TRANQUILITY I'd like to imagine this is a cleverly placed troll, meant to mock the mob mentality and utterly absurd accusations coming out of this thread. But I've been wrong before. Screw logic, let's make broad, sweeping generalizations with little to no proof to back up what we're saying, branding entire alliances as cheaters and exploiters and say CCP is the puppet master of an internet spaceship conspiracy within their own game! DANCE PUPPETS! DANCE!
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:36:00 - [482] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Originally by: Baske Edited by: Baske on 11/12/2008 08:00:24 Originally by: PROTOCOL Quote: This is just sick, how many alliances have been funded by this for 4 years while others have been working there asses off to to maintain there outposts A post on the forums ran by the emotards of this game, by a banned player who is likely retaliating is the only indication of the length of this exploit. They had lot's of ferrogel in their hanger just doesnt cut it as proof. Why don't you wait to see what ccp has to say. Do all you tin foil hatters think that they can provide an answer right away? This came to light in the middle of the damn night in iceland, you know that place where ccp work and live. This will take an investigation, ccp doesnt have a button they can push to spit out a list like you all want. Sit back, relax and I bet when the facts come out it is nowhere near the scope that this mob mentality has made it out to be. But keep screaming, you all look like fools. You sound more guilty than anyone in this thread, trying to stop people from complaining about an issue which most likely has had 10 times more impact on the game than 9/11 had to real life. Time out you muppet !! how could you even imagine the impact of 9/11 and even dare to disrespect the people that died in comparing it to a bloody game economy. You and the rest of the emotards whinging about nothing need a reality check. **** really does happen and if your virual empire is destroyed because of whatever get over it! play another game or something!! It was a relative comparisson, not a direct...ok? I do in no way disrespect those who died there, so stop your ranting. Fox Fan, lol !
Discrodia Gallente Independent Miners Guild	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:38:00 - [483] Okay, let's begin speculation on price shootups after this is done... I bet 1000% I like whales... I'm donating 300 mil towards an Orca BPO. Did you notice this is my sig? _______________ I mine rocks. Bigass rocks. :D
Childeric Polaris	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:39:00 - [484] CSM, please.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:39:00 - [485] Strange, I suddenly started really hoping that DarkFall (fantasy MMORPG with Eve like PVP and full looting) won't be a failure. -Lasse hoping for full transparency and hefty punishments
Makeme A'Billion Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:41:00 - [486] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 11/12/2008 09:24:16 Originally by: Makeme A'Billion Snip benefited? i think everyone but those directly obtaining the isk were victimized. it diminishes the game for everyone pure and simple. Come on think outside of your "world is against me" box, that isk they got they obviously used to buy stuff on the market too, which means normal(non-exploity people) BENEFITED, that isk in turn was used to purchase something else, said seller BENEFITED and so on and so on...remember isk is only useful...for BUYING stuff, having it in your wallet is pretty boring and not very useful. Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia how do you know the exploit itself didn't play a large part in the formation (not from ground up, but as they are now), continued growth and preservation of the powerblocs we have today? Erm...it did! lol what on earth do you think people use isk for?!?!?!? of course it benefited them but as my previous example showed isk goes round and round and round... don't get me wrong, im not saying it was a good thing, but for people to do this for such a time scale was fair play on their part, and yes CCP messed up, what gripes me is people moaning its personally hurt them...it hasn't if that isk wasn't in the eve economy players would be alot poorer, and that my friend is pure and simple.
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:45:00 - [487] Originally by: Makeme A'Billion Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 11/12/2008 09:24:16 Originally by: Makeme A'Billion Snip benefited? i think everyone but those directly obtaining the isk were victimized. it diminishes the game for everyone pure and simple. Come on think outside of your "world is against me" box, that isk they got they obviously used to buy stuff on the market too, which means normal(non-exploity people) BENEFITED, that isk in turn was used to purchase something else, said seller BENEFITED and so on and so on...remember isk is only useful...for BUYING stuff, having it in your wallet is pretty boring and not very useful. Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia how do you know the exploit itself didn't play a large part in the formation (not from ground up, but as they are now), continued growth and preservation of the powerblocs we have today? Erm...it did! lol what on earth do you think people use isk for?!?!?!? of course it benefited them but as my previous example showed isk goes round and round and round... don't get me wrong, im not saying it was a good thing, but for people to do this for such a time scale was fair play on their part, and yes CCP messed up, what gripes me is people moaning its personally hurt them...it hasn't if that isk wasn't in the eve economy players would be alot poorer, and that my friend is pure and simple. Look how dumb you are (c) goons Every honest person in trade chain got something in exchange for something, exploiters got something for nothing. In essence exploiters stole from everyone else in eve. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:51:00 - [488] Originally by: Makeme A'Billion Im not saying it was a good thing, but for people to do this for such a time scale was fair play on their part. Die in a fire or grow a brain please. Seriously... People that think like you are whats wrong with the world.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:55:00 - [489] Edited by: Shadowsword on 11/12/2008 09:55:31 We know about one exploit case with an estimated 2500-3000 bilions isk taken away from legitimate high-end moon owners. We know two other entities abused the same mechanics. AFAIK, there's something like 250 dysprosium moons. I think it's safe to say that at least 50% of the exploit was about dyspro-related products. What does that mean for one dyspro moon? (3 000 000 000 0000.50) / ((3654)*250) = 4 millions per day loss That's a minimal estimate! It could be five that that much. That's a large amount of money for corp having a moon for an extended period of time. Can you imagine what it mean for Evolution or Reikoku? Dozens of billions, possibly hundreds. So, here's the big question: Will CCP make at least a partial compensation? ------------------------------------------
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:57:00 - [490] Originally by: FlameGlow Every honest person in trade chain got something in exchange for something, exploiters got something for nothing. In essence exploiters stole from everyone else in eve. In all fairness, they did still have to buy the POS's which could get popped, set them up, empty them periodically and manage the logistic chains to keep them fueled and transport the goods to market. So they did still have to put non-trivial time into it. Lets compare, Legit Reactor Operator: (monthly) Capital: 10B Profit: 2B Hours: 20 Exploiter Capital: 2B Profit: 8B Hours: 5-10 So instead of making a 20% return monthly they made a 400% return and instead of making ~100m an hour they made ~1200M an hour. Oh and their barrier to entry and risks were vastly reduced. Thus, they weren't really getting something for nothing; they were just making in excess of a billion an hour on a very small investment. Oh ya, and they ****ed up the entire economy and probably altered the balance of power in 0.0. Other than that, no bigy.

davcin Caldari davcin Corp	Posted - 2008.12.11 09:58:00 - [491] Edited by: davcin on 11/12/2008 09:58:36 Link to where a cheater explains what it was done: http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936
Miss Brunette	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:01:00 - [492] This is just sick. As an industrialist this just adds to the cake of feeling at an utter disadvantage relying on invention and market mats. This is making competiotion pretty useless with honest invention and market materials against cheaters AND their friends who say nothing when they buy adv.mats for 50% under marketprice, who also has aquired all the T2 bpos they need. Time to bring invention on par with t2 bpo's, make alchemy a WHOLE lot better than 20:1 (I would suggest evening out the field completely, make em 1:1), and/or spawn more (preferably lowsec moons since these wouldnt be as tainted as 0.0 sov moons). Oh, and name'n shame all these cheaters.
Secondary ISprimary	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:06:00 - [493] my question is : if a player send a petition about a bug like this and petition get closed(4 years ago) and no answer have been given can CCP ban this player account ?
Ima Near'Jita Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:06:00 - [494] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 11/12/2008 09:55:31 So, here's the big question: Will CCP make at least a partial compensation? Or an even bigger question....what makes you think your alliance is innocent?
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:12:00 - [495] Originally by: Ima Near'Jita Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 11/12/2008 09:55:31 So, here's the big question: Will CCP make at least a partial compensation? Or an even bigger question....what makes you think your alliance is innocent? Even so... what makes us think CCP will actually act against high-level players such as for example sir molle. Put aside the close relationships with CCP employees, CCP would just be putting themselves more on the path of the media frenzy.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:12:00 - [496] Originally by: Makeme A'Billion that my friend is pure and simple. your trolling is terrible. 1/10
Macmuelli Gallente Meltd0wn The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:12:00 - [497] Good to see its adressed. But what happend to all ppls/corps/ allys which had produce on a fair way in this time? The effects on the market u can see right now. I personal hope for a more detailled statement, with numbers , and effects within the 4 years. What maked it happend that u adresses it now, and not 4 yaers ago since the bug report/ petition? Was it a lie from the cheater to blame u CCP? This is the bunch in the face. HStt de MSkelb÷rger ierst n Menschen in sin Haart inschlottn, denn kann diese Mensch sich opn Meckelb÷rger full und gonz verlatten." evefan since 2003
N'irrti Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:15:00 - [498] wts: slightly used pitchforks and torches
Rock'n'Roll Lady	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:16:00 - [499] The way the exploit is explained by the cheaters on SHC "http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936", only one thing comes into my mind Easter Egg It is manually put there by someone in development team to get benefits from this. And if you assume this as truth all other theories fall in place like why the petition about this was closed without any action four years ago?
Makeme A'Billion Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:23:00 - [500] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Originally by: Makeme A'Billion that my friend is pure and simple. your trolling is terrible. 1/10 great response I reply to your post and it's trolling, you reply and it's what? try to remember there are other people in the world with an opinion and it's not always yours.

Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:25:00 - [501] Originally by: Ima Near'Jita Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 11/12/2008 09:55:31 So, here's the big question: Will CCP make at least a partial compensation? Or an even bigger question....what makes you think your alliance is innocent? Very unlikely. I was one of the CEOs for a while, I'm vice-CEO now, so I have some visibility on both corporate and alliance assets and wallet. Our money come from legitimate T2/tax/moon sources and renting scheme, and we're not very rich to begin with. IF something nefarious took place, it was kept strictly on a personnal level. RA and Bob are probably clean, too. Else, why would have they put so much efforts in taking R64 moons? And that exploit espescially hurt R64 moon owners, so... ------------------------------------------
Mister Zero Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:25:00 - [502] http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7089/mailxm5.jpg "This exploit has had a profound effect on our game world" Gee, ya think? This is nothing short of an utter disgrace, CCP. Safe to say that the entire political landscape within the EVE Universe is entirely skewed based on what has been an on-going scam. What's worse is, by their own admission, weren't even paying customers. THOSE OF US WHO ARE DEMAND JUSTICE, GAWDAMMIT!
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:26:00 - [503] Originally by: Makeme A'Billion Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Originally by: Makeme A'Billion that my friend is pure and simple. your trolling is terrible. 1/10 great response I reply to your post and it's trolling, you reply and it's what? try to remember there are other people in the world with an opinion and it's not always yours. sorry, i based my comment on the assumption you weren't just stupid if you really think that when someone exploits the game, its good for everybody because that person then uses that isk is just.... wow
Cheeba Don Ihatalo Navy Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:26:00 - [504] TBH, I would rather they keep the exploit and t2 items remain cheap. Ive never had more than a bill in my wallet but you know what, I enjoy playing the game just fine. If some guys want to micromanage 200 exploit pos to make 1000bill, good for them. I imagine this whole exploit is being blown waaay out of proportion. Lets be honest, free isk is something that would become common knowledge pretty damn fast in this game. /me hands out chill pills and points to the big "Its a Game sign"
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:29:00 - [505] I <3 scandal weeks. The forums are so much moar interesting when people are ruthlessly spin doctoring each others points of view to get the advantage. Btw, is Prism X getting good data from this for that social experiment of his? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Plague Black 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:30:00 - [506] Dear CCP, You should give us the following: 1) Names 2) Developer names and their resignations (if any took part in it since it looks like a 4 year deliberate cover-up) 3) A public appology (somewhere in the lines of "We suck hard, forgive us if you can or walk out if you can not"). Then and only then you might get some of respect back.
Fenren Minmatar Bure Astro Photography	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:34:00 - [507] Originally by: Rock'n'Roll Lady Edited by: Rock''n''Roll Lady on 11/12/2008 10:20:08 The way the exploit is explained by the cheaters on SHC "http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936", only one thing comes into my mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg_(media) It is manually put there by someone in development team to get benefits from this. And if you assume this as truth all other theories fall in place like why the petition about this was closed without any action four years ago? there is no proof at all that this has gone on for 4 years, that a petition was made or that all alliances have made k's of billions out of it. the closest thing to a reasonable estimation of the timeframe was made by that guy who compared market history and thougt it had gone on for a few weeks. a post from a random char on the forum (with or without a pic) can hardly be seen as evidence. stop jumping to conclutions!
Typhena The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:34:00 - [508] This is a shame.... again! --- Sig Under Construction
Quakers	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:35:00 - [509] can we called this Pos-gate? please let us call this Pos-gate!
Fenren Minmatar Bure Astro Photography	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:40:00 - [510] Originally by: Plague Black Dear CCP, You should give us the following: 1) Names 2) Developer names and their resignations (if any took part in it since it looks like a 4 year deliberate cover-up) 3) A public appology (somewhere in the lines of "We suck hard, forgive us if you can or walk out if you can not"). Then and only then you might get some of respect back. if iceland has anything near the same laws and regulations about how and why you can fire people as the rest of the nordic counties have, they cant fire them. (and it seems they do. remember t20? he still works there iirc) and as others have said before, WAIT FOR SOME FACTS! we dont know anything about the scale of it.

Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:41:00 - [511] Oh noes the POS-gate but ah i have always thought something was messed up with ppl being able to buy GTC:s like its nothing.
Gen Laviski	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:44:00 - [512] you should get jove to come in and start blowing up alot of pos'es as a severe penalty for those allaince that gained from these exploits on top of removing all asset gained in that bug abuse or just simply wipe there sov out. but nevertheless i do hope ccp respond to some of the posts and most importantly name and shame corps/alliances!
hundurinn Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:46:00 - [513] Originally by: Fenren Originally by: Rock'n'Roll Lady Edited by: Rock''n''Roll Lady on 11/12/2008 10:20:08 The way the exploit is explained by the cheaters on SHC "http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936", only one thing comes into my mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg_(media) It is manually put there by someone in development team to get benefits from this. And if you assume this as truth all other theories fall in place like why the petition about this was closed without any action four years ago? there is no proof at all that this has gone on for 4 years, that a petition was made or that all alliances have made k's of billions out of it. the closest thing to a reasonable estimation of the timeframe was made by that guy who compared market history and thougt it had gone on for a few weeks. a post from a random char on the forum (with or without a pic) can hardly be seen as evidence. stop jumping to conclutions! Thats what I'm saying. CCP needs to confirm or deny the rumor that it has been going on for 4 years, the longer they wait the worse the effect will be. The only thing they have said so far is that there was an exploit but it has been fixed nothing more.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:49:00 - [514] Originally by: Fenren the closest thing to a reasonable estimation of the timeframe was made by that guy who compared market history and thougt it had gone on for a few weeks. Weeks? We have pretty solid indications that it's been going on at least for a year. First off, look at the price and volume of ferrogel in Jita. Tell me, how can a limited resource increase in volume and decrease in price, even as demand for T2 stuff keeps increasing? Also, there was a thread in december last year complaining about how ferrogel was being sold for under manufacturing costs...
Makeme A'Billion Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:50:00 - [515] Originally by: Makeme A'Billion don't get me wrong, im not saying it was a good thing I'm sorry one of my previous posts must have confused you, I said the above in one of my earlier posts, I have deleted some words and sentences which were around it so you are able to read it now... Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia if you really think that when someone exploits the game, its good for everybody because that person then uses that isk is just.... wow I'm just trying to show everyone that the isk which was "exploited" was actually already out there going around and around, these people simply gathered alot of it, and well most likely went on buying stuff with it. Some people forget you don't win eve if you have the biggest amount of isk in your wallet... or what do you think they have done with that isk? could be a case to bring up the whole using isk to purchase gametime issue...
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:52:00 - [516] Taking bets on which Dev it is finally answers the gathering lynch mob... 2/1 CCP Zulupark (We all love him at the moment don't we?) 3/1 CCP Wrangler (Expert in saying lots but answering nothing) 5/1 CCP Oveur (Times of trouble, out come the big guns...) 10/1 CCP Eris (Would probably turn the mob pink) 12/1 CCP Eyjo (Will blind us with stats that make it seem as if its 2004 again) 100/1 No Answer (....ever) Send your iskies to me for more fixed odds - Cheers. :)
Mookuh Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:53:00 - [517] Originally by: Shadowsword That's a large amount of money for corp having a moon for an extended period of time. Can you imagine what it mean for Evolution or Reikoku? Dozens of billions, possibly hundreds. So, here's the big question: Will CCP make at least a partial compensation? Ahaha...ahahahah...wahahahaha... thank you sir, you just made my day! Sure, let's compensate the most powerful alliances in the game, who've got a shady history with unfair advantages. They most certainly did not benefit from this in any way, shape or form... ahahahahaha ------------------------------------------------ Terry 'Mookuh' Hijakosji CAIN Public Relations
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:58:00 - [518] I demand a shiny new Snowball Launcher and a Snowball BPO as restitution... System Influence
3rr0rc0d3 Amarr Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.12.11 10:59:00 - [519] Edited by: 3rr0rc0d3 on 11/12/2008 11:00:02 Good time to come up with another snowball launcher tbh. At least give us some toy to play with to keep our attention elsewhere, CCP /edit: I like your thinking, Clansworth! ______________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. [b]Incoming threa
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:00:00 - [520] Originally by: hundurinn Thats what I'm saying. CCP needs to confirm or deny the rumor that it has been going on for 4 years, the longer they wait the worse the effect will be. The only thing they have said so far is that there was an exploit but it has been fixed nothing more. That is true. But they best investigate it completely first. Otherwise they have to come up every few days with new facts maybe contradicting their old findings and so on. Give them a little more time, I suppose they were themselves quite suprised and now need to root out the cheaters. As some people already said, this might not that easy as it seems to be. There will most probably lots of alts involved and a good deal of money laundring. Of course no one wants that they ban innocents also! At least I would be more than ****ed off if they would ban my char only because my buy order in jita got filled from one of these guys. So it needs time to give accurate details. In the meanwhile I can only repeat myself: The numbers in Jita indicate that this cheating is going on in a big matter since only a few weeks. Before that the prices of ferrogel etc. were tightly coupled (or correlated as people say) to the dys/prom prices. But since a few weeks the prices were decoupled and ferrogel dropped and dropped, together with hypersynaptic fibers. These "4 years" are utter nonsense. 4 years ago there was no real market for ferrogel and the likes, only few people did do that. No much money was in it then. Also: one char got permabanned and all his shiny isk wiped out. Then he posts anonomously on a 3rd party forum and throws in numbers which are not believable as explained above. Yet everyone believes that guy and yells at CCP. Shame on the playerbase, really. More civil manners wouldn't hurt to have. Also think a bit more about the circumstances and if that what people claim to have happend could be true and do match the numbers and realities on TQ. Only then post. Wild accusations without any base than rumours from banned cheaters are not really something which anyone can be proud of.

Xordan Caldari Meridian Dynamics Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:00:00 - [521] Originally by: Clansworth I demand a shiny new Snowball Launcher and a Snowball BPO as restitution... /signed And 4 years game time and a few titans plz.
hundurinn Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:07:00 - [522] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: hundurinn Thats what I'm saying. CCP needs to confirm or deny the rumor that it has been going on for 4 years, the longer they wait the worse the effect will be. The only thing they have said so far is that there was an exploit but it has been fixed nothing more. That is true. But they best investigate it completely first. Otherwise they have to come up every few days with new facts maybe contradicting their old findings and so on. Give them a little more time, I suppose they were themselves quite suprised and now need to root out the cheaters. As some people already said, this might not that easy as it seems to be. There will most probably lots of alts involved and a good deal of money laundring. Of course no one wants that they ban innocents also! At least I would be more than ****ed off if they would ban my char only because my buy order in jita got filled from one of these guys. So it needs time to give accurate details. In the meanwhile I can only repeat myself: The numbers in Jita indicate that this cheating is going on in a big matter since only a few weeks. Before that the prices of ferrogel etc. were tightly coupled (or correlated as people say) to the dys/prom prices. But since a few weeks the prices were decoupled and ferrogel dropped and dropped, together with hypersynaptic fibers. These "4 years" are utter nonsense. 4 years ago there was no real market for ferrogel and the likes, only few people did do that. No much money was in it then. Also: one char got permabanned and all his shiny isk wiped out. Then he posts anonomously on a 3rd party forum and throws in numbers which are not believable as explained above. Yet everyone believes that guy and yells at CCP. Shame on the playerbase, really. More civil manners wouldn't hurt to have. Also think a bit more about the circumstances and if that what people claim to have happend could be true and do match the numbers and realities on TQ. Only then post. Wild accusations without any base than rumours from banned cheaters are not really something which anyone can be proud of. I agree with you. However, you can't blame people for jumping to conclusions and believe some banned players over CCP. How CCP handled the T20 fiasco was just a mess and still today people question everything CCP do and say.
Karanth Gallente Independent Fleet Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:12:00 - [523] Need answers here. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Wheel of Whineage
Kaaii Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:14:00 - [524] You muppets..... I never happened According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Vanessa Vasquez KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:15:00 - [525] I don't mind if there has been an exploit or bug. Hasn't affected my game experience much i would say. But what really bothers me is CCP. Again! How can it be possible to have an exploit with such an immense impact like this over 4 years ??? Not only that such dimensions should be obvious on logs, it has also been reported! And again, CCP announces a nice CCP from CCP for christmas. Not a single word on the POS exploit, allthough this patch includes a fix for it. We'r beeing sold a present, which is actually a fix for a 4 year long major exploit. Thats nice, isn't it? Reminds me on the ghost training feature ... erm sorry, bug. If CCP wouldn't have banned these accounts, those guys would never have gone public on, of course, 3rd party forums, CCP would never have made an official announcement and we would never have been told. As far as i'm concerned, this firm lost all reputation. I don't mind failures, bugs, exploits, lag or whatever. We all know that they can happen and nobody is perfect. But i appreciate fair play, and i can't overlook repeating failures in that. Over and out
Mr FourEyes	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:16:00 - [526] Originally by: hundurinn Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: hundurinn Thats what I'm saying. CCP needs to confirm or deny the rumor that it has been going on for 4 years, the longer they wait the worse the effect will be. The only thing they have said so far is that there was an exploit but it has been fixed nothing more. That is true. But they best investigate it completely first. Otherwise they have to come up every few days with new facts maybe contradicting their old findings and so on. Give them a little more time, I suppose they were themselves quite suprised and now need to root out the cheaters. As some people already said, this might not that easy as it seems to be. There will most probably lots of alts involved and a good deal of money laundring. Of course no one wants that they ban innocents also! At least I would be more than ****ed off if they would ban my char only because my buy order in jita got filled from one of these guys. So it needs time to give accurate details. In the meanwhile I can only repeat myself: The numbers in Jita indicate that this cheating is going on in a big matter since only a few weeks. Before that the prices of ferrogel etc. were tightly coupled (or correlated as people say) to the dys/prom prices. But since a few weeks the prices were decoupled and ferrogel dropped and dropped, together with hypersynaptic fibers. These "4 years" are utter nonsense. 4 years ago there was no real market for ferrogel and the likes, only few people did do that. No much money was in it then. Also: one char got permabanned and all his shiny isk wiped out. Then he posts anonomously on a 3rd party forum and throws in numbers which are not believable as explained above. Yet everyone believes that guy and yells at CCP. Shame on the playerbase, really. More civil manners wouldn't hurt to have. Also think a bit more about the circumstances and if that what people claim to have happend could be true and do match the numbers and realities on TQ. Only then post. Wild accusations without any base than rumours from banned cheaters are not really something which anyone can be proud of. I agree with you. However, you can't blame people for jumping to conclusions and believe some banned players over CCP. How CCP handled the T20 fiasco was just a mess and still today people question everything CCP do and say. And once again CCP is handling it baddly, there not saying how long it went on how much is involved, there beeing super vague. Becuase there to embarrased to release the details.
Major Buttache Coded Arms	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:16:00 - [527] I donÆt know if anyone has touched on this yet or not, but iirc that at least two prominent game magazine journalists play EvE. If there is even an ounce of truth to the rumour that this admitted bug was so widespread for so long, well the ramifications will be enormous and no doubt picked up by even national media. I know the BBC did an article on EvE economy, anyone know that journoÆs name?
Mister Zero Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:17:00 - [528]
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:17:00 - [529] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Tell me, how can a limited resource increase in volume and decrease in price, even as demand for T2 stuff keeps increasing? Many of the dys moons were monopolized. If the monopoly breaks up all these moons become available again and the supply is increased. Also it depends on how much those moons are utilized, if they can harvest constantly or if there is lots of fighting and so on. Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Weeks? We have pretty solid indications that it's been going on at least for a year. Then show us these indications! Just babbling without any facts is completely worthless. Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Also, there was a thread in december last year complaining about how ferrogel was being sold for under manufacturing costs... That thread was complete nonsense, sorry to say. It was nothing more than a whine that the op there couldn't earn as much money as before. It was until recently perfectly possible to earn a good bag of isk from ferrogel reaction. Setup buy orders cheap for the materials in Jita, sell the product for good price. No cheating involved. Of course if you direct buy the expensive dys and the peak of the market speculation and if you sell to low buy orders then your profit margings are indeed small. But so what? Actually I remember that post because I replied in there with exactly the same argument there at that time. It was never unprofitable to produce ferrogel until recently. Price of Dys. 64.000 Price of Prom. 18.000 Price to build ferrogel from materials bought in Jita including pos fuel costs: 16.500 Price to build fermionic condensats: 26.500 Price to build hypersynaptic fibers: 5.400 Now look at the numbers and prices in Jita and you will see that dys was much cheaper in between. The non-profit of ferrogel production is nothing than a myth to keep people off from trying it and thus decreasing the profits for the established people. Unless is see good proof which is backed up by numbers I have no reason that this exploit is going on in a big scale for more than a few weeks! Maybe it was going on in a small scale, but who cares about small scale. The big cheat didn't last longer than some weeks. Only since then you saw big loads of stuff dumped very cheap onto the market and the price crashed. Check yourself the price history in Jita. Very easy to see.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:18:00 - [530] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Taking bets on which Dev it is finally answers the gathering lynch mob... 2/1 CCP Zulupark (We all love him at the moment don't we?) 3/1 CCP Wrangler (Expert in saying lots but answering nothing) 5/1 CCP Oveur (Times of trouble, out come the big guns...) 10/1 CCP Eris (Would probably turn the mob pink) 12/1 CCP Eyjo (Will blind us with stats that make it seem as if its 2004 again) 100/1 No Answer (....ever) Send your iskies to me for more fixed odds - Cheers. :) Quote me odds for 1M ISK on CCP Fallout (make the new guy take the heat again)

CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:18:00 - [531] This is the sort of stuff why the EvE population growth is seemingly stagnating. Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorite MMO's : DAoC SI era, SWG Pre CU-NGE, Ryzom, EVE Online Retired @ DAoC, SWG, WoW, WAR, Ryzom, LOTRO, Planetside, Diablo I-II, Entrop
Huan CK Gallente Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:19:00 - [532] You know, I kinda like the fact that this all blew up :D I'm not as rich as many others, but I have quite some wealth, and with this story released, I feel even richer, because I for my part know that my money was earned in honest endevours :D Well, I don't know if or how long CCP knew about it, or why and how this story came up now rather than way sooner. To me it's just important that they clean up the mess, get rid of the responsible parties, and make sure that this exploit isn't exploitable any longer. My videos: Watch on youtube.
Von Hinten	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:23:00 - [533] Edited by: Von Hinten on 11/12/2008 11:23:11 Here you go: http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3650/reactiongf1.jpg found in german eve-online.de edit, damn someone was faster
Asuri Kinnes Caldari Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:24:00 - [534] Originally by: Gnulpie That is true. But they best investigate it completely first. Otherwise they have to come up every few days with new facts maybe contradicting their old findings and so on. Give them a little more time, I suppose they were themselves quite suprised and now need to root out the cheaters. So it needs time to give accurate details. In the meanwhile I can only repeat myself: The numbers in Jita indicate that this cheating is going on in a big matter since only a few weeks. Before that the prices of ferrogel etc. were tightly coupled (or correlated as people say) to the dys/prom prices. But since a few weeks the prices were decoupled and ferrogel dropped and dropped, together with hypersynaptic fibers. These "4 years" are utter nonsense. 4 years ago there was no real market for ferrogel and the likes, only few people did do that. No much money was in it then. Also: one char got permabanned and all his shiny isk wiped out. Then he posts anonomously on a 3rd party forum and throws in numbers which are not believable as explained above. Yet everyone believes that guy and yells at CCP. Shame on the playerbase, really. More civil manners wouldn't hurt to have. Also think a bit more about the circumstances and if that what people claim to have happend could be true and do match the numbers and realities on TQ. Only then post. Wild accusations without any base than rumours from banned cheaters are not really something which anyone can be proud of. Because everyone KNOWS SHC is SOOOO much more accurate than anything published anywhere else! I agree with the above, give it time. Thrashing them here will do no good whatsoever... AK Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking. Ethics, Honor and Respect. Without the first two, you can't buy the last one...
Triff Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:24:00 - [535] Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez Over and out come on, you just contradicted yourself.
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:26:00 - [536] TQ reset !
Darth Sithus Amarr Beltinci UnderGround	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:27:00 - [537] I'm actualy surprised by all those CCP replies, great job!
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:29:00 - [538] Originally by: Veroid TQ reset ! dont talk stupidity
Tobias Lee Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:29:00 - [539] The main reason and the only reason I believe that CCP simply ignored this is plain and simple money. Pvping needs isk, players that did not know about this exploit, some of them will have paid real money to sell gtc or to pay for 4 or 5 alt accounts to mine like crazy to get pvp ships to fight whilst the exploiters, the big players who are probably all run by ccp alts anyway had free isk so they had more ships to fight and thus cause our poor guy running 4 or 5 accounts or buying gtc for real money to lose more ships and thus have to either buy more gtc or do more mining to fund his/her pvp addiction. Just like real life its all about the money, nothing more nothing less. At this moment in time ccp is in a unique position being the only space mmporg game on the market, however I do know that Jumpgate is released soon, Star trek online out next year and also rumours of a Warhammer 40k online. CCP need to get their **** together and fast, fix those bugs asap or drastically add new content to EVE to push it above those other games and even then its still going to have the stigma of EVE online a game of wealth and power where players will sell even their own mother for isk and even the game developers cheat to deal with. :(
Mr John22ta Underworld Protection Agency	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:31:00 - [540] Originally by: Darth Sithus I'm actualy surprised by all those CCP replies, great job! CCP needs to be very careful with what they say about this. The forums are (rightfully IMHO) up in arms, and anything that CCP says or does, will be scrutinized, quoted, taken as gospel ect. If that info turns out to be wrong, the damage could be amplified. Give them time to find out what has happened, take action, and THEN tell us. There is no point in them replying to us right now, will do more damage than good

J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:33:00 - [541] Of course, it could be that all the alliances shared this information, or all kept it to themselves, so that they could still have regular pew pew. This is so wide reaching it's going to affect PvP significantly, and the entire map is going to change. I can see the smaller alliances that maybe didn't know about this moving up the food chain a bit. Hell, of course no-one could have kept this quiet so long, but the large alliances have alot of players combined - it would have been easy to keep it quiet amongst them. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Darth Sithus Amarr Beltinci UnderGround	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:33:00 - [542] Originally by: Mr John22ta Originally by: Darth Sithus I'm actualy surprised by all those CCP replies, great job! CCP needs to be very careful with what they say about this. The forums are (rightfully IMHO) up in arms, and anything that CCP says or does, will be scrutinized, quoted, taken as gospel ect. If that info turns out to be wrong, the damage could be amplified. Give them time to find out what has happened, take action, and THEN tell us. There is no point in them replying to us right now, will do more damage than good Right, they need more than 4 years
Bobbechk The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:34:00 - [543] Originally by: Veroid TQ reset ! would be awsome fun :D:D:D (no really i mean it it would be awsome fun!) ...
Ezoran DuBlaidd	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:35:00 - [544] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: hundurinn Thats what I'm saying. CCP needs to confirm or deny the rumor that it has been going on for 4 years, the longer they wait the worse the effect will be. The only thing they have said so far is that there was an exploit but it has been fixed nothing more. That is true. But they best investigate it completely first. Otherwise they have to come up every few days with new facts maybe contradicting their old findings and so on. Give them a little more time, I suppose they were themselves quite suprised and now need to root out the cheaters. As some people already said, this might not that easy as it seems to be. There will most probably lots of alts involved and a good deal of money laundring. Of course no one wants that they ban innocents also! At least I would be more than ****ed off if they would ban my char only because my buy order in jita got filled from one of these guys. So it needs time to give accurate details. In the meanwhile I can only repeat myself: The numbers in Jita indicate that this cheating is going on in a big matter since only a few weeks. Before that the prices of ferrogel etc. were tightly coupled (or correlated as people say) to the dys/prom prices. But since a few weeks the prices were decoupled and ferrogel dropped and dropped, together with hypersynaptic fibers. These "4 years" are utter nonsense. 4 years ago there was no real market for ferrogel and the likes, only few people did do that. No much money was in it then. Also: one char got permabanned and all his shiny isk wiped out. Then he posts anonomously on a 3rd party forum and throws in numbers which are not believable as explained above. Yet everyone believes that guy and yells at CCP. Shame on the playerbase, really. More civil manners wouldn't hurt to have. Also think a bit more about the circumstances and if that what people claim to have happend could be true and do match the numbers and realities on TQ. Only then post. Wild accusations without any base than rumours from banned cheaters are not really something which anyone can be proud of. except that there's not a lot of trust going around to a company that doesn't have a stellar reputation to begin with. and wasn't it a "banned cheater" that exposed something about wrongly spawned t2 bpos, titan account sharing, and a number of other items? yet, that 'banned cheater' turned out to be in the right...
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:37:00 - [545] the only comfort i find is knowing that the exact same people who were on a godlike level are going down the dumpster. little ****s needing to cheat to stay ahead - and not even succeeding at that.
Kay Han Caldari The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:38:00 - [546] Edited by: Kay Han on 11/12/2008 11:42:53 Edited by: Kay Han on 11/12/2008 11:38:57 if this thing was reported FOUR ***ing years ago all i can say is: CCP has a reaction like a Skysc r* a* p* er..... NONE Kudos to u dudes /me salutes edit:stupid wordfilter Originally by:* CCP Atropos Personally I think Amarr ships should consume slaves in a similar way that other ships consume ammunition.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:39:00 - [547] TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like?
Flossing	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:40:00 - [548] Edited by: Flossing on 11/12/2008 11:43:41 NEWS FLASH Inspector Clouseau is hot on the heals of these dastardly Exploiters and has promised to stop all of these types of shenanigans happening again in the future.
speedek Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:42:00 - [549] Originally by: Ephemeron TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like? What about T2 lottery?
3rr0rc0d3 Amarr Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:43:00 - [550] Originally by: Ephemeron TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like? The loss of isk that some of the honest players have invested? A reset could never be the solution... if it was, we would have to reboot the actual universe and start from primordial soup again. We'd be playing Spore... ______________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. oops

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:44:00 - [551] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd and wasn't it a "banned cheater" that exposed something about wrongly spawned t2 bpos, titan account sharing, and a number of other items? yet, that 'banned cheater' turned out to be in the right... Does this mean now that every banned person gains a lot of credibility and is so much more believable now because he cheated? Somehow I am not sure what you mean with the above. And especially strange it is that this person is so much more believed than the market data which strongly indicates big frauds for several weeks but not before. But yeah ... 4 years cheating draws of course much more attention than 8 weeks (or whatever) of cheeting. Don't trust anyone! Don't believe a word of what people say. Look at the data yourself, think about if things are resonable and if they match the existing data. Only this is the right way to approach things. Things which we cannot confirm or reject (for example: i petitioned it 4 years ago already and they closed the petition saying it is all okay) we need to completely ignore if we want to have a sound deduction.
Rosalina Sarinna Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:44:00 - [552] I'd just like to say Mister Zero's piccy of the "silo swarm" at the POS makes me think how bad this has been if its been done on dozens of POS for years. I'm pretty miffed being a small scale T2/Cap manufacturer. Imho, the whole T2 infrastructure needs a restart (I think it did before this, but certainly after it) - as in T2 BPOs available once more, invention success rate being somewhat improved, and alchemy lowered from a 20:1 ratio.
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:44:00 - [553] i demand to be turned into jove, and that i get a ton of jove ships and all will be forgiven Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Jon Arabin	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:45:00 - [554] Hai, Well, this is all just so exiting I thought I'd chip in with my two cents... Firstly, beeb article; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7256069.stm Is nice! Now for my nonsense! EVE is a very big cake, and sometimes big cakes go wrong... The general population (small fry like me)has (IMHO) little cause to be overly concerned at this. CCP will chuck some system auditors at it, do some swift accountancy and stomp the sandcastles of the bad boys and girls (though let's face it, mostly boys!;) who were chief perps. If that ain't good enough as was once said (in a roundabout way) by some chap from M$ to Big Blue, "read the licence agreement and weep!" We pay for access to the trainset, and get some input in return via forums and the CSM. But nobody really owns it, the issue of selling ISK to buy GTCs to buy [$úÇ]...? Well some degree of metaGing there perhaps, but I've a dayjob and find all the web resource and open source tools quite cool. Plus this closely mirrors what had been going on with RL economics, 'cept it was moonmuck/modules not mortgages in this case. Try buying that nice T2 Passive Drake with your pitiful ISK next month!!!:P Anyway, ramble, ramble... Oh that was it, lot's of people here wish to be exited and het up about stuff. Well there's alot of that here, so I for one would like to congratulate whoever major Win! Arabin for the State!
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:47:00 - [555] /me pokes stuff with pitchfork Let's lynch the T2 BPO's !! No, Really ! It would be free market! Oh and few public bannings of most vocal trolls perhaps also. People love a good show. In more serious note I'm sure CCP Inqusitors are already rattling their rusty tools. Give em some time, as it's propably hard to understand the mumblings of the stuff their attention is focused on.
Hroya Gallente StrikerCorp	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:49:00 - [556] I dont pretent to know any details about the subject other then the official statements provided. I have no numbers to back up any claims, or to even assume who did what, profited from this situation and to what extend. All i do want to know is, how will it affect MY EvE. Is it still worthwhile to invest MY time into EvE to plan things, finding out how the market works, how to run a corporation some day, work for an alliance, building things up in the long run. Have a fair shot at working towards the bigger things. Will it really affect me or is it just a drama scene on a level of gameplay that i wont even scratch any day under the Sun ?
Enaria Ferenic Amarr SPORADIC MOVEMENT FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:52:00 - [557] Well an Alliance m8 of mine (Baske) did propose that the best way to deal with this was via a 0.0 reset, but using RP mechanics, specifically a Jove invasion of 0.0 which would kick all players outta 0.0 and destroy all 0.0 infrastructure. Once this is complete the jove would mysteriously disappear again and players could once again enter 0.0. Imagine the mad dash to re-establish in 0.0 and finding that all the moons etc. had been re-set? New power blocs anyone? Oh and more NPC 0.0 space plz.
Bodica Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:54:00 - [558] Originally by: Enaria Ferenic Well an Alliance m8 of mine (Baske) did propose that the best way to deal with this was via a 0.0 reset, but using RP mechanics, specifically a Jove invasion of 0.0 which would kick all players outta 0.0 and destroy all 0.0 infrastructure. Once this is complete the jove would mysteriously disappear again and players could once again enter 0.0. Imagine the mad dash to re-establish in 0.0 and finding that all the moons etc. had been re-set? New power blocs anyone? Oh and more NPC 0.0 space plz. we already have our "chrismas gift : QR 1.0.3. Don't ask too mutch PLEAZE !!!
Enaria Ferenic Amarr SPORADIC MOVEMENT FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:55:00 - [559] Meh our Christmas gift was a drama bomb!
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.12.11 11:58:00 - [560] Want to see giant alliances collapse? Watch closely what will happen in the very near future...

Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:04:00 - [561] I would like to ask for a massive TQ reset. Everyone starts over with 100k Skillpoints, 5K ISK and a Noobship.
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:05:00 - [562] Lost your name, but I'll give you 20 to 1 that the poor new guy 'CCP Fallout' takes the 'proverbial' pole up the hole.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:07:00 - [563] so... you banned a few pos alts... bravo - putting the gist back into logistics
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:09:00 - [564] hmm, in german eveo forum the player who got the stone rolling said that if it comes eye for an eye he could prove that a gm was involved. the one who receives his petition to this bug. he further stated that this gm probably gave the information to third persons whoever that was.. as it sounds to me, and im german, he speeks the truth...so lets see what will happen the next days
Leakim jones Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:09:00 - [565] Edited by: Leakim jones on 11/12/2008 12:09:31 Originally by: Roemy Schneider so... you banned a few pos alts... bravo Ban their IP, that will get the mains as well
dyson mesa	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:11:00 - [566] Originally by: Leakim jones Edited by: Leakim jones on 11/12/2008 12:09:31 Originally by: Roemy Schneider so... you banned a few pos alts... bravo Ban their IP, that will get the mains as well yeah, until they got the next one from their ISP
Jeykhwo	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:12:00 - [567] Originally by: Veroid hmm, in german eveo forum the player who got the stone rolling said that if it comes eye for an eye he could prove that a gm was involved. the one who receives his petition to this bug. he further stated that this gm probably gave the information to third persons whoever that was.. as it sounds to me, and im german, he speeks the truth...so lets see what will happen the next days thus, by word on a forum you could know who is lying and who is saying the truth... You've got a carrier here m8 CIA needs you :D
Resolute Stormbringer	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:13:00 - [568] Originally by: Veroid hmm, in german eveo forum the player who got the stone rolling said that if it comes eye for an eye he could prove that a gm was involved. the one who receives his petition to this bug. he further stated that this gm probably gave the information to third persons whoever that was.. as it sounds to me, and im german, he speeks the truth...so lets see what will happen the next days If he's already banned, what is he waiting for - why not go public with all the info then. Frankly I'll call his bluff.
Tushani Amarr Kamikaze Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:14:00 - [569] It comes down to: Some one at CCP (a GM we can quess)was made aware of the issue sometime around 4 years ago. However the ticket was handled as usual the logs showed nothing and nothing was done to fix it. What this person did with the info is a guess only - but I've seen POS farms set up like that in the South-West corner of eve. It's not limited to 1-2 blocks/corps. It is (or was before the patch) spread through out EVE. The players who have been here awhile remember fail after fail on CCP's part. This is just another example. POS Exploit Valuable moons/belts seeded in higher frequency in certain regions the T20 debacle MS give-a-way GM's not having a clue about the game Bad customer relations Continuing to operate like a secret police organization ect fail ect fail The worst part of these problems is how CCP treats it PAYING customers. Customer Service... something CCP needs to learn. still. fast. And the whole CSM is a sop to make us think they care. /rant off
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:19:00 - [570] Oooh.... Here's hoping T2 module prices go back up towards pre-invention days, killing people was soooo much more worthwhile back then... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'

Jix Star Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:22:00 - [571] As the effects of this exploit are going to be so wide spread with practically every player affected in some way, I would support a reset of TQ. The entire EvE economy has been ruined by this, makes sense to start again tbh and make it fair for everyone.
Wodanonline Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:23:00 - [572] so ccp banned all ppl who have been using this exploit for whatever period of time ? ccp removed any assets/isk gained by this exploit in 4 years ? i find this very hard to believe. and what about explaining why it took 4 years to fix something like this. this is a very small msg for such a big impact to this game. i think you owe more then that to your PAYING subscribers.
N'irrti Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:24:00 - [573] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Oooh.... Here's hoping T2 module prices go back up towards pre-invention days, killing people was soooo much more worthwhile back then... and the tears where much more tasty :D
Leakim jones Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:24:00 - [574] Originally by: dyson mesa Originally by: Leakim jones Edited by: Leakim jones on 11/12/2008 12:09:31 Originally by: Roemy Schneider so... you banned a few pos alts... bravo Ban their IP, that will get the mains as well yeah, until they got the next one from their ISP Yeah but their main would already be banned.
Johnny Gurkha Death Cult Covenant	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:25:00 - [575] Dear moderators, pls stop being paranoid over sarcastic posts regarding this exploit... censorship is bad mmmkay? Dear CCP, wtf Dear alliance leaders, lol
0vermind	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:25:00 - [576] in case you dont get it CCP cut the voluntary crap that hunt bug and PAY some BUG HUNTERS
breiti Caldari The Rising Stars Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:25:00 - [577] Originally by: Ephemeron TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like? signed. THIS "we all" should think about
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:26:00 - [578] looks bad for MH, Evoke, MM, Razor, RA, BOB
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:27:00 - [579] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX looks bad for MH, Evoke, MM, Razor, RA, BOB Don't try to act like University of Caille didn't have a hand in this.
Leakim jones Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:27:00 - [580] Originally by: 0vermind in case you dont get it CCP cut the voluntary crap that hunt bug and PAY some BUG HUNTERS I would be willing to be paid to be a bug hunter

Arrs Grazznic Poena Executive Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:28:00 - [581] Originally by: Jix Star As the effects of this exploit are going to be so wide spread with practically every player affected in some way, I would support a reset of TQ. The entire EvE economy has been ruined by this, makes sense to start again tbh and make it fair for everyone. I'm pretty sure that CCP will not reset TQ. Too many people have ~~invested~~ spent too much time in the game to make this an acceptable choice. If this were to happen I suspect a large number of players, including myself, would quit. I don't want to have to start again after nearly 4 years in game. TBH, I'm not too fussed about this whole drama. I hope it doesn't make my T2 items and ships too expensive, but if it does it will be similar to a could of years back. What I would like to see is a 'name and shame' post where details of which corporations have had POS removed (and how many) are listed. Cheers, Arrs
JMG	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:29:00 - [582] Edited by: JMG on 11/12/2008 12:33:05 i think we will see a dramatic politic change after big names like RA, Goons, TCF BoB will disband cause their money making players got band and mostly all assets are removed cause gained due to exploid use...... all those exploiters had changed eve politics that much and enjoyed playing eve without "working" for anything" :( shame on u guys (and on CCP tbh, for that this Exploit is up and running for xxx months/years.... dosnt matter) ban all those freaks and try to fix the universe; and then get some new GMs that will listen more to Players Petitions (voices) :( well, as some more shouting for it; YES, reset Tranquility and SiSi, put the latest patches on an lets start from beginning ! would love to see "real" fights again and no UBER system lagging blobbs
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:30:00 - [583] Originally by: N'irrti Originally by: Gabriel Karade Oooh.... Here's hoping T2 module prices go back up towards pre-invention days, killing people was soooo much more worthwhile back then... and the tears where much more tasty :D OM NOM NOM NOM! If I remember rightly, it was around 15-20M per T2 turret, you could make some serious isk plinking a T2 fitted Battleship... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:34:00 - [584] Originally by: Karille Originally by: XxHey BabyxX looks bad for MH, Evoke, MM, Razor, RA, BOB Don't try to act like University of Caille didn't have a hand in this. well MH(D2,TRUST, XETIC leadership), Evoke(D2,G) and some other german Corps, (mostly former G/TRUST Corps) where all involved in this. Some got banned over the last few days.
Jeykhwo	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:36:00 - [585] Originally by: JMG i think we will see a dramatic politic change after big names like RA, Goons, TCF BoB will disband cause their money making players got band and mostly all assets are removed cause gained due to exploid use...... all those exploiters had changed eve politics that much and enjoyed playing eve without "working" for anything" :( shame on u guys (and on CCP tbh, for that this Exploit is up and running for xxx months/years.... dosnt matter) ban all those freaks and try to fix the universe; and then get some new GMs that will listen more to Players Petitions (voices) :( Stop giving name of alliance without any idea or proof... I hope CCP will do a list of shame... with any involved people and corp / alliance. But before that I hope ppl keep their mouth shut, to preserve us from their stupidity
Johnny Gurkha Death Cult Covenant	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:37:00 - [586] Originally by: Jeykhwo I hope CCP will do a list of shame... Name and shame would be nice, provide plenty of lol's and a fair few red faces
Soyseki Desu	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:37:00 - [587] Originally by: Veroid hmm, in german eveo forum the player who got the stone rolling said that if it comes eye for an eye he could prove that a gm was involved. the one who receives his petition to this bug. he further stated that this gm probably gave the information to third persons whoever that was.. as it sounds to me, and im german, he speeks the truth...so lets see what will happen the next days You can give the reference?
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:39:00 - [588] Edited by: XxHey BabyxX on 11/12/2008 12:39:40 Originally by: Soyseki Desu Originally by: Veroid hmm, in german eveo forum the player who got the stone rolling said that if it comes eye for an eye he could prove that a gm was involved. the one who receives his petition to this bug. he further stated that this gm probably gave the information to third persons whoever that was.. as it sounds to me, and im german, he speeks the truth...so lets see what will happen the next days You can give the reference? http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showthread.php?p=281850#post281850 his name is "Verfasser"
Avaleric Amarr SC Special Circumstances	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:40:00 - [589] Originally by: Quakers can we called this Pos-gate? please let us call this Pos-gate! YES - lets! - Ignorance is bliss...
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:40:00 - [590] Originally by: Ephemeron TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like? Hmmm taking away everything I worked for 2 years to get? Yeah I kind of don't like that. Still, if you think it would be fun, please go ahead and biomass your characters. Let us know how it turns out.

Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:41:00 - [591] your all mindless drones like this guy
Inertial The Suicide Kings True Reign	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:42:00 - [592] One thing amazes me. People are crying because someone petitioned it when they first saw it, and CCP closed the petition without looking into it, which is bad. But you got to realise that they were probably drowning in petitions about towers at that time, because they had just recently been released. So its not unreasonable that they missed it. Personally I just think it was a excuse for the exploiter, so he could say "I petitioned it and CCP didn't say it wasn't okay", altough anyone with half a braincell can see that it was a clear exploit.
ApaKaka Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:42:00 - [593] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showthread.php?p=281850#post281850 his name is "Verfasser" It's more likely this GM simply took notes of petitions during the onslaught of bugs/petitions that arrived during the POS-introduction, and basically assumed he already had this described in another bug/petition. Besides, GM's don't deal with bugs unless they make characters stuck, the bugtracking system always has had that job, and lots of faults notoriously petitioned never reached the eyes of Q&A teams as evidenced by their "We haven't seen this fault? Can you please describe it?" threads all over when people have been petitioning it for ages already.
WifeTrade Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:43:00 - [594] I find it rather amusing that afther the initial GS fingerpointing at BoB the most vocal GS posters have gone quiet. On the other hand, I found it rather interesting that when MAX kinda failed against us in e-o/m-o. We actually fielded more Dreads/Carriers than BoB, so it doesnt matter how embarrasing it might be. I think i can speak for most of the players out there, we want a LARGE GM post explaining stuff and name & shame.
dyson mesa	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:46:00 - [595] Originally by: Soyseki Desu Originally by: Veroid ... You can give the reference? click there he says that he is sure that a gm catched the information and gave them to 3rd persons. later in the thread he was asked if he could prove that. he replied that if it comes eye for an eye he could.
Will Barton NorCorp Security Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:49:00 - [596] Oh**** If this meens that t2 modules will skyrocket we are doomed. Alot more AF will be seen on the field About ppl yelling about CCP should seed markets: There might be unintended effects of this. And it might screw up more than nessecary(spelling) imho let it sort itself out. The "invisible hand" will fix the market. It might take a while, but its in its nature to stabilize.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:51:00 - [597] The amount of wild fabrication and conclusion jumping baffles me. The crazies amongst have almost no solid information - but does that keep you from believing the worst possibilities and then make up all sorts of dramatic consequences - of course not. Less exciting I guess. * Server reset? Somebody above said that's unlikely to happem. Wrong! It won't happen. Not a chance. Not even a tiny one and nothing fair about it either. * Whole EVE economy affected. BS. If even the worst assumptions are true it's still only affecting the minority of people living in 0.0 and using a lot of T2. And if many of the biggest alliances were involved then the cheats cancelled another. * T2 prices rising - shrug. Maybe, we'll see. * Have the Jove wipe 0.0? Nothing like that will happen. Would be very unfair to the vast majority of people living there and also not have the effect the confused here want it to be. The same folks as before would be back in no time. Goons, RA, BoB, MM, etc... they don't own what they own because of T2 material prices or some T2 BPO. They are there because they have the will and organisation to keep an alliance running. That would not change one bit. The likely scenario is that this exploit was not widely used for 4 years. If it has been going on in a non-negligable way since only a few weeks ago then the economy was hardly affected and the fix won't affect the market much. Even if it went on for long time in a big way - this won't be nearly as relevant as many here think. T2 was expensive before - shrug. CCP can easily change some variables and increase supply if they want. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:57:00 - [598] Originally by: Inertial One thing amazes me. People are crying because someone petitioned it when they first saw it, and CCP closed the petition without looking into it, which is bad. But you got to realise that they were probably drowning in petitions about towers at that time, because they had just recently been released. So its not unreasonable that they missed it. Nope, for my (honest) money, that's gross negligence. "Potential game-shaping bug? Meh" closes petition Quote: Personally I just think it was a excuse for the exploiter, so he could say "I petitioned it and CCP didn't say it wasn't okay", altough anyone with half a braincell can see that it was a clear exploit. True but if CCP doesn't care, why should he/she? Also, why is anyone expecting anything even remotely resembling decent disclosure from CCP on this? The only way they will ever learn is voting with your money. Or trying to pay with monopoly money. Still, though, CCP tends to only really do anything when we keep going bananas at them so keep on, I guess. Also, Stoffer (or whatever your CCP handle is now), dude, push for disclosure, use small words, bang heads together, whatever you can, tia.
Tobias Lee Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:58:00 - [599] You don't need to reset the universe, get another server, put the blackholes and wormholes in, it leads to another universe that hasn't been exploited yet, make the black holes wormholes etc too small for cap ships. No cap fleet backup and a brave new world to go and gold rush for and it might even produce a surge in new players.
Rutger Centemus Joint Empire Squad	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:01:00 - [600] Edited by: Rutger Centemus on 11/12/2008 13:05:05 Edited by: Rutger Centemus on 11/12/2008 13:03:13 Originally by: dyson mesa Originally by: Soyseki Desu Originally by: Veroid ... You can give the reference? click there he says that he is sure that a gm catched the information and gave them to 3rd persons. later in the thread he was asked if he could prove that. he replied that if it comes eye for an eye he could. Translation: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: "Verfasser"@EveO.de Ok. To make some things clearer. A petition for this phenomenon with POS'es was sent. It was sent back without a reply. The phenomenon was nevertheless there. Nowadays I'm sure that this information was received by a GM and passed on to an unknown third party. Everyone here condemning this or expressing his opinions, should ask himself, if he would not have acted in the same way. None can say "I would not have done this." We're talking about the Eve-equivalent of King Solomon's Treasure here. edit German isn't my first language, but I'm quite sure his allegation is that he's "sure" it was passed on by a GM, but not that he has proof / can provide proof of this specific allegation. /edit Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.

Joram McRory eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:04:00 - [601] Originally by: Glengrant The amount of wild fabrication and conclusion jumping baffles me. * Whole EVE economy affected. BS. If even the worst assumptions are true it's still only affecting the minority of people living in 0.0 and using a lot of T2. And if many of the biggest alliances were involved then the cheats cancelled another. Minority?? I think you are wrong there - I seem to remember seeing something from CCP saying only 1/4 of characters are in 0.0. But as almost every 0.0 player I know of has at least one Empire char (I have 3 x empire chars to 1 x 0.0 one). Even if 1:1 is more normal that's still 1/2 of players being involved in 0.0 Joram My Photography site
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:05:00 - [602] It looks like all the pillars of 0.0 space were built on a cheat. Simply banning the leaders isnt enough. Any Alliance that used this should lose all their POS. You cant rest the world but you can try to undo the damage. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:07:00 - [603] Originally by: Ghoest It looks like all the pillars of 0.0 space were built on a cheat. Simply banning the leaders isnt enough. Any Alliance that used this should lose all their POS. You cant rest the world but you can try to undo the damage. Why does it look like that? What proof is there that this has lasted 4 years and is extremely widespread?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:07:00 - [604] Originally by: spyor GUYS calm down... its christmas... THIS IS A GAME. we pay for the game, who are we to say what is an exploit and what is not. the offenders have been dealt with. lets get on with the game. PLAY PLAY PLAY not whine whine whine..... the game btw does lend itself to scam to win, its peoples choice to scam to win, im not here to win, eve you cannot win, you dont win life and eve is like life. Reaction POS owner ITT...
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:08:00 - [605] should be said that the exploiter were fully aware of what they were doing and that they think it is ok that the got banned, even after some people mentioned that the ban was not correct after such a long peroid of time and due to the fact that it was him who petitioned it.
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:11:00 - [606] If what I hear of this situation is correct, I'm much more disappointed in the exploiters than the company. That said, I think this is a time for hands to get dirty and clean up this mess. ___ Eve Radio - Playing Music To The Masses!
Ebodhisatva The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:12:00 - [607] This will react in a same matter of the crisis today in RL. A giant bubble of normal steady flowing ISK is taken away from the community, now what will happen is prolly the equivalent of what happens at this very moment in RL. But there will be no Cash Printing Devices made like the US does now. Very funny experiment CCP, a Real Life World emulation
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:13:00 - [608] Originally by: Apaco lypse Originally by: Elisa Day Originally by: Tobin Shalim BIG THING: It's not just the ferrogel!!! It's ALL of the adv. moon materials. Seriously, go check out each and every single one. At least in Forge region, it's done for all of 'em, probably everywhere else too. It's also all minerals, PLEX and some T2 modules, just from checking my market quick bar. So it could be 1. CONSPIRACY or 2. Completely normal market history glitch that happens almost every day. it's every t2 item including ships It's quite suspicious. Could one other possibility be an incredibly aggressive market ploy? I'm sure there are many people with the wealth to buy out entire regions - what would it cost, a few trillion isk? The reason I suggest this was my own instinct as a trader would have been to buy certain T2/Advanced products as fast as possible and in the highest quantities I could afford, then sit on them for a month or two and resell.
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:15:00 - [609] Originally by: "Verfasser"@EveO.de ... edit German isn't my first language, but I'm quite sure his allegation is that he's "sure" it was passed on by a GM, but not that he has proof / can provide proof of this specific allegation. /edit pretty good translations as far as i can tell, english is not my first language :) there is the question for a proof: question proof his answer
Koggull	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:19:00 - [610] Originally by: spyor GUYS calm down... its christmas... THIS IS A GAME. we pay for the game, who are we to say what is an exploit and what is not. the offenders have been dealt with. lets get on with the game. PLAY PLAY PLAY not whine whine whine..... the game btw does lend itself to scam to win, its peoples choice to scam to win, im not here to win, eve you cannot win, you dont win life and eve is like life. ^ THIS ! - I like you, you are propably one of the very few who has some sense left in their brain. HAVE MY BABIES !

RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:22:00 - [611] Originally by: Koggull Originally by: spyor GUYS calm down... its christmas... THIS IS A GAME. we pay for the game, who are we to say what is an exploit and what is not. the offenders have been dealt with. lets get on with the game. PLAY PLAY PLAY not whine whine whine..... the game btw does lend itself to scam to win, its peoples choice to scam to win, im not here to win, eve you cannot win, you dont win life and eve is like life. ^ THIS ! - I like you, you are propably one of the very few who has some sense left in their brain. HAVE MY BABIES ! This is stupid. It's obvious it was an exploit, the guy even got banned for it ffs. Scamming is something else entirely.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:24:00 - [612] Originally by: Inertial One thing amazes me. People are crying because someone petitioned it when they first saw it, and CCP closed the petition without looking into it, which is bad. But you got to realise that they were probably drowning in petitions about towers at that time, because they had just recently been released. So its not unreasonable that they missed it. Personally I just think it was a excuse for the exploiter, so he could say "I petitioned it and CCP didn't say it wasn't okay", altough anyone with half a braincell can see that it was a clear exploit. Well RA exploited complexes for months and CCP didn't ban anyone even thought it was obviously an exploit to anyone with an IQ. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Vrikshaka 0ff-Peak Esoteric Cutthroats	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:26:00 - [613] grabs popcorn
Stahlregen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:29:00 - [614] Originally by: Roemy Schneider so... you banned a few pos alts... bravo This.
Sevarus James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:33:00 - [615] Read the player news. more info on it from CCP. bigger than one guy on SHC. Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE
Drachma Golea Caldari hunter killers	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:37:00 - [616] Originally by: Sevarus James Read the player news. more info on it from CCP. bigger than one guy on SHC. OMFG LOL
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:37:00 - [617] These people saying lets "move on" are a joke. They are people in or related to alliances that benefited greatly from the exploit. They are hoping only the actual cheaters suffer and that they who benefited from the cheats(with nearly unlimited war resources) wont lose their sovereignty. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:38:00 - [618] As predicted, Ferrogel (and all the other materials) now have market history data on 12.10. Wow, it wasn't some sort of nonsensical coverup, just normal market history hiccups! Who would've ever guessed...
JoeBear770	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:39:00 - [619] Where's the swirly bug, the exploit mascot?
Arrs Grazznic Poena Executive Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:40:00 - [620] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. Name and shame! Cheers, Arrs

A Sinner THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:41:00 - [621] Edited by: A Sinner on 11/12/2008 13:45:18 give link here please of what wrangler said edit : thanks, now tell us the names of those alliances. it will be found out eventually anyway, no point making us wait. ----------------------- "There are no ugly women, just men who didn't have enough to drink"
Shadoo North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:42:00 - [622] OK, you banned the accounts and removed the POSes. Excellent. Now -- can you give us an update on what will be done about the isk generated by this exploit? Will you follow the trail and remove isk/assets from the alts that you banned?
Sevarus James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:42:00 - [623] Originally by: A Sinner give link here please of what wrangler said go back to 1st page of this thread, or check player news. Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE
Arrs Grazznic Poena Executive Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:43:00 - [624] Originally by: A Sinner give link here please of what wrangler said Wrangler's first post in this thread has been updated. Details are also in the player's News Centre, but here you go: Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Thank you Cheers, Arrs
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:44:00 - [625] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. I probartly will, when I know whats going on :P. If players have been actively exploiting the game thats sad :(.
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:44:00 - [626] Quote: banned over 70 accounts I seriously ****ing doubt that this exploit was limited to 70 accounts.
Alexander Universe	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:46:00 - [627] I still can't unfortunately get information from Wrangler's post about was it or wasn't it exploited for four years. Am I misreading it for the fifth time?
Alty MacAlterson Alt Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:47:00 - [628] The obvious solution is to buy all the Ferrogel you can.
Jalif Scorpion's Sting Blades of Serenity	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:47:00 - [629] Originally by: Sevarus James Read the player news. more info on it from CCP. bigger than one guy on SHC. Somebody check the corporations of wich alliances those were plz :)
Stefan F Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:47:00 - [630] Originally by: Madius Quote: banned over 70 accounts I seriously ****ing doubt that this exploit was limited to 70 accounts. He didn't say 70... He said over 70 :) 1045 is also over 70

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:48:00 - [631] Nice. They banned the 70 accounts, in 3 alliance corps and 5 alt corps (certainly related to some wiser alliances), destroyed the POSes, and that is it? And the money?!!!! What about the trillions of ISK that must be now in the hands of people that are not member of those 7 corporations? What about the assets bought with it? Simply putting an end to the exploit is too little too late... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:48:00 - [632] Reads update, increasingly shocked. Is CCP learning? It is a sign of the endtimes. (or I am delusional)
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:49:00 - [633] Quote: The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. Somehow I read this as "the supply now being cut down to moons is by an order of manitude no longer able to support the current tech 2 market and alchemy reactions are no longer needed as price-caps but have to be relied upon to somehow even hope to meet market demands." I am worried.
Amber Coldheart Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:49:00 - [634] Originally by: Madius Quote: banned over 70 accounts I seriously ****ing doubt that this exploit was limited to 70 accounts. Probably doesnt even cover the PoS alts, no, hehe
Lord Saradomin Gallente The Vorlon Empire Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:49:00 - [635] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Taking bets on which Dev it is finally answers the gathering lynch mob... 2/1 CCP Zulupark (We all love him at the moment don't we?) 3/1 CCP Wrangler (Expert in saying lots but answering nothing) 5/1 CCP Oveur (Times of trouble, out come the big guns...) 10/1 CCP Eris (Would probably turn the mob pink) 12/1 CCP Eyjo (Will blind us with stats that make it seem as if its 2004 again) 100/1 No Answer (....ever) Send your iskies to me for more fixed odds - Cheers. :) noooooooooooo none of the above GM Grimmi!!! Eve Online: QR = welcome to Assault Frigate Online
Rosalina Sarinna Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:51:00 - [636] Originally by: Madius Quote: banned over 70 accounts I seriously ****ing doubt that this exploit was limited to 70 accounts. He does also say they are still investigating... 70 did seem a big number when I first read it though.
Pain Redefined	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:51:00 - [637] Please provide: -Player names -Corp names -Alliance names Thank you
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:51:00 - [638] ok you did your stupid investigation now give us the names of corps/alliances involved
Sma Balveda	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:56:00 - [639] Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, Nice historical allusion there....
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:56:00 - [640] Originally by: Pain Redefined Please provide: -Player names -Corp names -Alliance names Thank you name and shame. /me grabs pitchfork and torch -- stuff --

Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:56:00 - [641] Quote: We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Somehow people hit the reply button by accident before reading that last bit. That last bit means there might well be more bannings and "seizures" to come, the destruction of 5 corporations was just the initial reaction to obvious exploiters. Now they're chasing down the money.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:56:00 - [642] Originally by: Valan Originally by: Inertial One thing amazes me. People are crying because someone petitioned it when they first saw it, and CCP closed the petition without looking into it, which is bad. But you got to realise that they were probably drowning in petitions about towers at that time, because they had just recently been released. So its not unreasonable that they missed it. Personally I just think it was a excuse for the exploiter, so he could say "I petitioned it and CCP didn't say it wasn't okay", altough anyone with half a braincell can see that it was a clear exploit. Well RA exploited complexes for months and CCP didn't ban anyone even thought it was obviously an exploit to anyone with an IQ. I think farming is a hugely different problem than this which ranks among the likes of item or isk cloning.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:57:00 - [643] Nice. But people are going to want to know the following, Now, who was it? Are CCP going to chase this up properly; most of those banned will be alt corps. The whole mess needs an in-depth investigation to trace the more circumspect offenders back to their mother corps and alliances- Scapegoating several alliances and brushing the actions of others under the carpet wont bode well for customer relations. How long was it going on for? Why did CCP alter market data? There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:57:00 - [644] follow the money see if this money goes to bigger corps/alliances ban them all also and then give us all names dont be pathetic bunch of losers hiding behind "policies" like always trust in your company is at all-time low, do the right thing show respect to people who play the game without exploits idiots
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:58:00 - [645] BURN THEM, DROWN THEM ! (ig ofc)
Mr John22ta Underworld Protection Agency	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:59:00 - [646] Edited by: Mr John22ta on 11/12/2008 14:02:26 Originally by: Sma Balveda Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, Nice historical allusion there.... Yeah, nice to see they have a sense of humour about this Hmm, is this exploit really comparible to pearl harbour? Would also like to know what corps/alliances where involved
Sevarus James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.11 13:59:00 - [647] Originally by: Miklas Laces follow the money see if this money goes to bigger corps/alliances ban them all also and then give us all names dont be pathetic bunch of losers hiding behind "policies" like always trust in your company is at all-time low, do the right thing show respect to people who play the game without exploits idiots My somebody got up on the wrong side o' the bed. I disagree with all-time low. This was a fast response and good info regarding what happened AND the investigation is ONGOING. And those policies? They are there for a reason. sheesh. Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE
IntegerOverflow	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:01:00 - [648] that's crazy... such an exploit, overseen for years.... I mean, such a thing must have been obvious in the market logs / statistics. well, anyways, will be interesting how the market reacts. I believe the buzz alone is enough to make prices go up, and the impact will become obvious over the next weeks.
Aleyra Mel	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:02:00 - [649] Edited by: Aleyra Mel on 11/12/2008 14:04:13 NAME AND SHAME, when you screw eve community and market you cant escape in the shadows. Name the banned accounts and especially their corporations!
Wodanonline Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:02:00 - [650] can ccp go more into what exactly you did and how far your going in terms of tracing the billions of isk generated by this bug/exploit. as far as i can read you stopped a few real corps alot of alt corps and alot of alts maybe a few mains. according to some msgs this has been going on for a LONG time and so the isk is probbly spread around. and what about other accounts using the same IP even if you used a diffrent character to exploit this bug doesnt make your other character less guilty. i know its impossible to trace it all to the last bit but this must have generated alot of isk/assets that are now floating around in eve wich is very unfair towards your 5+ year old player base that still work long and hard to get their isk piles in a fair way. also your msg sounds like you only went after the ppl who are exploiting it since you receieved the petition. what about before that ? hope we get some more info soon and that this is not just turned into some rant place.

Koggull	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:03:00 - [651] GM Grimmi ftw! - Thanks for the update! As for those 7 corps in 2 alliances involved, I think the public demands the names of those involved.. Character names isnt really relevant, we want the corporations names. I'm really pleased with how the EVE staff is taking care of this scandal, it shows that you have learned from previous mistakes. But the public needs more. Solid resources are saying it's mostly related to MM. - LOL @ Goons and everone else who pointed their fingers at bob in the beginning.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:03:00 - [652] People need to bare in mind that we dont realyl know for a FACT how long this has been going on, and if CCP was really awear in the long term. If CCP were not awear of the issue in the long term, then the buck stops with us the player. It's up to us to find and report these things.
Johnny Gurkha Death Cult Covenant	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:05:00 - [653] Burn them!
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:08:00 - [654] Originally by: Koggull Solid resources are saying it's mostly related to MM. All of Morsus Mihi corporations are still active ("All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions"). . you'll never jump alone
XFranc Caldari Traders Industrialists and Miners of EVE R.H.I.N.O.	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:08:00 - [655] Edited by: XFranc on 11/12/2008 14:09:30 Edited by: XFranc on 11/12/2008 14:08:34 nvm
Koggull	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:10:00 - [656] Originally by: Xthril Ranger Originally by: Koggull Solid resources are saying it's mostly related to MM. All of Morsus Mihi corporations are still active ("All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions"). The keyword in my sentence is "related" - Doesn't HAVE to be corps in the MM alliance it self :)
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:10:00 - [657] Edited by: XxHey BabyxX on 11/12/2008 14:10:28 Evoke, Mostly Harmless calling it now!
irlegend	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:10:00 - [658] TBH i couldent care less, if some carebears scored big so be it, they made the t2 prices drop i guess, which have made everything good. Im just looking forward to seeing how many big alliances will lose their industrial wings due to this :-)
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:11:00 - [659] All that ** you guys talk and you and PL were cheating this whole time. Ban all of you Originally by:** Xthril Ranger Originally by: Koggull Solid resources are saying it's mostly related to MM. All of Morsus Mihi corporations are still active ("All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions").
Lord Saradomin Gallente The Vorlon Empire Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:13:00 - [660] Edited by: Lord Saradomin on 11/12/2008 14:13:27 Originally by: Miklas Laces follow the money see if this money goes to bigger corps/alliances ban them all also and then give us all names dont be pathetic bunch of losers hiding behind "policies" like always trust in your company is at all-time low, do the right thing show respect to people who play the game without exploits idiots follow the money aye?....I bet you any amount that it's been through your account, if not someone in your corp. It wouldn't have just stayed in one account, it would be on the market. But well done CCP, shame about the 5 day response, but good work on the player submitting the petition. Eve Online: QR = welcome to Assault Frigate Online

Koggull	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:14:00 - [661] But then again Xthril Ranger, it doesn't have to be MM.. - It's just like the t20 incident.. BoB, as an alliance had no idea what t20 was doing. RKK had no ideas as well. T20 was acting on his own but the whole alliance got smudged as cheaters. - The same thing will happen to MM (That is if it's true that the exploiters are related to MM.) MM are good people, no doupt about that. Fine pvpers and awesome players. - How ever, it only takes one guy to **** everything up (ie. t20)
davcin Caldari davcin Corp	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:16:00 - [662] Names!! Saying you banned is one thing, giving the names of who was banned is another and it helps to proof that you indeed did something!
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:17:00 - [663] My opinion. CCP must do much MORE than cancel out the effects of such action. Punishment should be EXTENDED and very serious. Must be a lesson to make pople think twice before doing anything like that. I would say ALL capitals, supercapitals and POS from corps involved or corps that recieved isk from corps involved should be eliminated. Yes completely CRIPPLE and remove 0.0 foothold of any alliance that was involved in ANY degree. Does snot matter a few only were involved and some of the pilots of such ships did not knew where the isk came from. The punishment should make more harm to the involved than they have done to the game. And mostly important MAIN director characters of the true corps that received that type of isk must be banned. Would dare to say, if a few heads in scheme are detected, to be prosecuted legally in RL. CCP has now ONE chance to make us proud and show themselves as a company worthy of our faith. They must BAN all characters of anyone involved directly and seize assets of all corps that received isk from that. And i mean ALL assets. Your corp created 1B isk only with the exploit? Too bad. you loose ALL your POSs and capitals now... think more before trying stupid things in future.
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:18:00 - [664] Edited by: Poreuomai on 11/12/2008 14:19:36 CPP stating that this had a significant impact on the economy - that's huge. Originally by: ApaKaka It's more likely this GM simply took notes of petitions during the onslaught of bugs/petitions that arrived during the POS-introduction, and basically assumed he already had this described in another bug/petition. Besides, GM's don't deal with bugs unless they make characters stuck, the bugtracking system always has had that job, and lots of faults notoriously petitioned never reached the eyes of Q&A teams as evidenced by their "We haven't seen this fault? Can you please describe it?" threads all over when people have been petitioning it for ages already. If my own software job is anything to go by, that is certainly possible. Bugs need to be filed as bugs, otherwise they will be lost and never fixed. *Let My People Go*
Kaar Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:21:00 - [665] I love all these Goodfellas and Atlas guys demanding that entire (enemy) alliances be punished. You guys are terrible --- ---
Shpuntik Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:21:00 - [666] Edited by: Shpuntik on 11/12/2008 14:26:02 damn when this type of thing happened in NF (not as big scale as this) when I was server head I was kicking the s**t out of the mods and devs finding out why the hell this was not found and dealt with more so if reports are true that it was petitioned. Not sure who is running CCP mod team but they need to get stuff sorted petitions taking too long and not even getting noticed is just unacceptable. I would hope a top CCP employee to write a blog soon listing full details of what has happened and damaged cause as well as action taken it is the least we as players as well as customers of this game deserve. I thought the T2 scandal was bad but this could be even worse the effect on market will be huge and the effect it has already made in the game well thats unknown to us but we can only assume. ---InViCtA---
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:22:00 - [667] Originally by: Seishi Maru My opinion. CCP must do much MORE than cancel out the effects of such action. Punishment should be EXTENDED and very serious. Must be a lesson to make pople think twice before doing anything like that. I would say ALL capitals, supercapitals and POS from corps involved or corps that recieved isk from corps involved should be eliminated. Yes completely CRIPPLE and remove 0.0 foothold of any alliance that was involved in ANY degree. Does snot matter a few only were involved and some of the pilots of such ships did not knew where the isk came from. The punishment should make more harm to the involved than they have done to the game. And mostly important MAIN director characters of the true corps that received that type of isk must be banned. Would dare to say, if a few heads in scheme are detected, to be prosecuted legally in RL. CCP has now ONE chance to make us proud and show themselves as a company worthy of our faith. They must BAN all characters of anyone involved directly and seize assets of all corps that received isk from that. And i mean ALL assets. Your corp created 1B isk only with the exploit? Too bad. you loose ALL your POSs and capitals now... think more before trying stupid things in future. tbh ccp should get have icelandic diplomats contact the embassies of the countries these cheaters came from, and seek extradition
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:23:00 - [668] Originally by: Mr John22ta Edited by: Mr John22ta on 11/12/2008 14:02:26 Originally by: Sma Balveda Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, Nice historical allusion there.... Yeah, nice to see they have a sense of humour about this Hmm, is this exploit really comparible to pearl harbour? Pearl harbour?? He was referring to the assasination of Marcus Tullius Cicero on the 7th Dec 43 BC!!
Plague Black 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:24:00 - [669] Someone should start investigating major alliances that lost members lately and find out which alliances got corps closed on this day. I'm too lazy for that right now.
Elrca Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:24:00 - [670] o/ Hi mom I'm in a Drama bomb!

Bullet Dingle	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:25:00 - [671] Originally by: Straight Chillen I heard about this once quite a while ago. And i wrote if off to the drunken ramblings of a southern man. God damn i coullda been rich And banned
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:27:00 - [672] Originally by: Kaar I love all these Goodfellas and Atlas guys demanding that entire (enemy) alliances be punished. You guys are terrible Answering to your provocation. I really do not think the ones to be punished would be the ones you THINK I would want to be punished (considering NC titans number didnt increased at all in last 1 year I am really not thinking on them). If anyone at OUR side is related I hope so that our side get the same hammering. I post this as a player and a HONEST person, two concepts that prevail much over the concept of allegiance to any in game alliance.
Patripassion	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:27:00 - [673] Originally by: Koggull But then again Xthril Ranger, it doesn't have to be MM.. - It's just like the t20 incident.. BoB, as an alliance had no idea what t20 was doing. RKK had no ideas as well. T20 was acting on his own but the whole alliance got smudged as cheaters. - The same thing will happen to MM (That is if it's true that the exploiters are related to MM.) MM are good people, no doupt about that. Fine pvpers and awesome players. - How ever, it only takes one guy to **** everything up (ie. t20) If the people at the top didn't know about this, I'd eat several hats.
Emma Murphy	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:28:00 - [674] my cats breath smells like catfood
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:28:00 - [675] Originally by: Vio Geraci Originally by: Seishi Maru My opinion. CCP must do much MORE than cancel out the effects of such action. Punishment should be EXTENDED and very serious. Must be a lesson to make pople think twice before doing anything like that. I would say ALL capitals, supercapitals and POS from corps involved or corps that recieved isk from corps involved should be eliminated. Yes completely CRIPPLE and remove 0.0 foothold of any alliance that was involved in ANY degree. Does snot matter a few only were involved and some of the pilots of such ships did not knew where the isk came from. The punishment should make more harm to the involved than they have done to the game. And mostly important MAIN director characters of the true corps that received that type of isk must be banned. Would dare to say, if a few heads in scheme are detected, to be prosecuted legally in RL. CCP has now ONE chance to make us proud and show themselves as a company worthy of our faith. They must BAN all characters of anyone involved directly and seize assets of all corps that received isk from that. And i mean ALL assets. Your corp created 1B isk only with the exploit? Too bad. you loose ALL your POSs and capitals now... think more before trying stupid things in future. tbh ccp should get have icelandic diplomats contact the embassies of the countries these cheaters came from, and seek extradition You can sue someone even them being in other country. They damaged the operation of CCP main income product therefore caused monetary damage to CCP. There is base to legal actions if CCP can proof it.
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:29:00 - [676] Originally by: Patripassion If the people at the top didn't know about this, I'd eat several hats. But only to be proven if one was near such a pos...
Klandi Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:30:00 - [677] Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors ... WOT? Wasn't this bought to the attention of CCP FOUR YEARSago? (albeit incorrectly) Why the outrage and emoting in a game that is a sandbox (anything is permissible)and that the devs can 'balance' at the whim of their opinion. Is this any more/less important than a pirate char creating a market by blowing up craft then directing the victim to buy his ships? That is perfectly legit - why not this? It is the basis of human nature to look for ways to exploit their environment - that's the driving force behind inventors and entrepreneurs. This is also a case of CCP double standards ..... Merry Xmas
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:31:00 - [678] Originally by: Seishi Maru You can sue someone even them being in other country. They damaged the operation of CCP main income product therefore caused monetary damage to CCP. There is base to legal actions if CCP can proof it. Well the logs show nothing... or they show everything once tampered with
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:32:00 - [679] Originally by: Vio Geraci Originally by: Seishi Maru My opinion. CCP must do much MORE than cancel out the effects of such action. Punishment should be EXTENDED and very serious. Must be a lesson to make pople think twice before doing anything like that. I would say ALL capitals, supercapitals and POS from corps involved or corps that recieved isk from corps involved should be eliminated. Yes completely CRIPPLE and remove 0.0 foothold of any alliance that was involved in ANY degree. Does snot matter a few only were involved and some of the pilots of such ships did not knew where the isk came from. The punishment should make more harm to the involved than they have done to the game. And mostly important MAIN director characters of the true corps that received that type of isk must be banned. Would dare to say, if a few heads in scheme are detected, to be prosecuted legally in RL. CCP has now ONE chance to make us proud and show themselves as a company worthy of our faith. They must BAN all characters of anyone involved directly and seize assets of all corps that received isk from that. And i mean ALL assets. Your corp created 1B isk only with the exploit? Too bad. you loose ALL your POSs and capitals now... think more before trying stupid things in future. tbh ccp should get have icelandic diplomats contact the embassies of the countries these cheaters came from, and seek extradition First Goon ever to make me smile with a forum post. Congratulations on your exquisite deployment of sarcasm there ... ISSUE - Bring back live events
Miss Anthropy Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:32:00 - [680] I just re-subbed after being AFK for 9 months. I miss all the good drama. Seems like a good time to be a miner though.

Hex Keng Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:33:00 - [681] Originally by: Seishi Maru My opinion. CCP must do much MORE than cancel out the effects of such action. Punishment should be EXTENDED and very serious. Must be a lesson to make pople think twice before doing anything like that. I would say ALL capitals, supercapitals and POS from corps involved or corps that recieved isk from corps involved should be eliminated. Yes completely CRIPPLE and remove 0.0 foothold of any alliance that was involved in ANY degree. Does snot matter a few only were involved and some of the pilots of such ships did not knew where the isk came from. The punishment should make more harm to the involved than they have done to the game. And mostly important MAIN director characters of the true corps that received that type of isk must be banned. Would dare to say, if a few heads in scheme are detected, to be prosecuted legally in RL. CCP has now ONE chance to make us proud and show themselves as a company worthy of our faith. They must BAN all characters of anyone involved directly and seize assets of all corps that received isk from that. And i mean ALL assets. Your corp created 1B isk only with the exploit? Too bad. you loose ALL your POSs and capitals now... think more before trying stupid things in future. Well, I guess they would have to ban whole EvE, because almost everybody at least 'directly' enjoyed cheap T2 mods ;) So maybe think about that before you open your mouth so wide. I think the whole discussion is hypocritical, because CCP didnt react to reports of that 4 years ago in the first place, so its mainly their fault. And as I pointed out, almost everybody had their share from that, whether big or small, whether he knew it or not.
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:33:00 - [682] Originally by: Haywoode Jablome Originally by: Seishi Maru You can sue someone even them being in other country. They damaged the operation of CCP main income product therefore caused monetary damage to CCP. There is base to legal actions if CCP can proof it. Well the logs show nothing... or they show everything once tampered with Yeap , that is why I said, IF ccp can proof it. Because indeed is not something easy to proof.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:33:00 - [683] Originally by: Klandi Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors ... WOT? Wasn't this bought to the attention of CCP FOUR YEARSago? (albeit incorrectly) Why the outrage and emoting in a game that is a sandbox (anything is permissible)and that the devs can 'balance' at the whim of their opinion. Is this any more/less important than a pirate char creating a market by blowing up craft then directing the victim to buy his ships? That is perfectly legit - why not this? It is the basis of human nature to look for ways to exploit their environment - that's the driving force behind inventors and entrepreneurs. This is also a case of CCP double standards ..... Merry Xmas item duplication is not innovation, it's cheating
Emma Murphy	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:34:00 - [684] Originally by: Emma Murphy my cats breath smells like catfood Originally by: Emma Murphy my cats breath smells like catfood Originally by: Emma Murphy my cats breath smells like catfood Originally by: Emma Murphy my cats breath smells like catfood
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:37:00 - [685] lol @ eve
Karla Kay	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:37:00 - [686] It is my understanding that the corps was alt corporations run by alts. So the actions of CCP are usless in effect. The alliances will just walk away without a scratch.
Millenia Fallenwing	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:38:00 - [687] Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 14:43:18 Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 14:38:37 Found this post on scrapheap. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 1. Why has this issue not taken care of all these years ago. 2. WHY should it take a number of petitions to get a problem fixed. 3. Why has Band of Brothers alliance got 20 Large towers with the same setups in Delve to exploit this type of reaction for the past 4 years? This is a post below which i have copied and pasted from Scrapheap "The expanse of this so far is probably lost on most people so I would like to make a few facts clear. In the past 4 jears we are talking about ISK in value of 2.500.000.000.000 ISK to 3.000.000.000.000 ISK. ThatÆs 2500 û 3000 billion. Everyone that owns a T2 item can bet that it was build in part from resources due to this phenomenon. At this point I would like to thank CCP for making it possible to buy GTCÆs with ISK. So much about us. "
Gambuk	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:38:00 - [688] Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is..
Leakim jones Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:39:00 - [689] Originally by: Karla Kay It is my understanding that the corps was alt corporations run by alts. So the actions of CCP are usless in effect. The alliances will just walk away without a scratch. Except that CCP have already said there are 2 alliances involved.
Klandi Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:39:00 - [690] I was referring to cause not the symptom - and how cheating is conceptually regarded

Tholarim Amarr Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:39:00 - [691] Originally by: ardik http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 thread that got locked by the devs, but basically, bob is primarily the ones that have been exploiting this bug Originally by: CCP Wrangler We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:39:00 - [692] Because BoB is eve
Tanyasha	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:41:00 - [693] They will not walk away with out a scratch because they have probably in a majority of cases just lost there support network which allowed them to uber blob or field caps and once you lose that element then you suddenly become very concerned as too using them to the same degree. I would like to know Alliance names and Corporations though but if it is still under further investigation I would not be surprised if a couple of the long term big players may suddenly disappear from the EVE Universe.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:41:00 - [694] Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Didn't you read my previous post? He referred to the assiasination of Cicero on the 7th Dec 43 BC!
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:43:00 - [695] Originally by: Hex Keng Well, I guess they would have to ban whole EvE, because almost everybody at least 'directly' enjoyed cheap T2 mods ;) So maybe think about that before you open your mouth so wide. I think the whole discussion is hypocritical, because CCP didnt react to reports of that 4 years ago in the first place, so its mainly their fault. And as I pointed out, almost everybody had their share from that, whether big or small, whether he knew it or not. This is just spinning.. You and everybody understand very well what we talking about when we say everyone involved directly. trying to spin that is just ludicrous or a pathetica attempt of push this stuff under the carpet. Anyone if a 4 year old brain capability knows very well what means direclty involved. All legal systems in the world had to define this same line of limit on who is directly involved and who is not, and surprise has not been any difficulty at all for any of them. Will give you a hint. ANY character that placed on market ferrogel comming from these POS, ANY character that received proportionally large amounts of isk from those characters. And do not even start with the "he sent me 12 isk so I must be banned?". If you want to bring up childish spinning go somewhere else. This is a serious issue. Everyone can understand very well what means directly involved and the concept of "large ammounts of isk", and no one means people that bought a T2 sensor booster. Its very easy to start with a check on each titan for example, and see if any of the isk involved came in a large chunk from any exploiter corp. CCP already proved to be capable of such tracking with a previously removed titan. Also I should say ANYONE trying to downgrade this issue and spin it as some useless witch hunt should be investigated as well.
GateScout	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:43:00 - [696] Edited by: GateScout on 11/12/2008 14:43:42 Quote: We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. Translation: We found 7 alt corporations. Three of with were stupid enough to be in an alliance. NAMES! WE WANT NAMES! CCP you had better be open about this with the community. It's time to name the offenders and punish those that benefited.
Richard Third Gallente Wrath of Fenris	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:44:00 - [697] I hve to applaud CCP for taking action on this. However they do seem a bit defensive. hehe. Nevertheless I wanna say thanks to CCP for catching the people abusing the glitch. -- You can't do that with a Planet.
Karla Kay	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:45:00 - [698] Originally by: Leakim jones Originally by: Karla Kay It is my understanding that the corps was alt corporations run by alts. So the actions of CCP are usless in effect. The alliances will just walk away without a scratch. Except that CCP have already said there are 2 alliances involved. But no action will be taken against the Alliances involved.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:45:00 - [699] Originally by: GateScout Quote: We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. Translation: We found 7 alt corporations. Three of with were stupid enough to be in an alliance. NAMES! WE WANT NAMES! CCP you had better be open about this with the community. It's time to name the offenders and punish those that benefited. This. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Elrca Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:46:00 - [700] I want cookies!

God GirlFriend	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:48:00 - [701] Originally by: Karla Kay Originally by: Leakim jones Originally by: Karla Kay It is my understanding that the corps was alt corporations run by alts. So the actions of CCP are usless in effect. The alliances will just walk away without a scratch. Except that CCP have already said there are 2 alliances involved. But no action will be taken against the Alliances involved. And that is a real problem. At very least CCP should do a search for the word ferrogel in all conversation logs of alliance leaders of such alliances. Each occurrence checked manually. If any involved with the caught offenders; take action. Also all conversations of ANY of the banned characters with ANY directors or any corp should be checked. Disband alliance (not the corps). The moral blow is the most important part.
Argosus	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:51:00 - [702] Originally by: Seishi Maru And mostly important MAIN director characters of the true corps that received that type of isk must be banned. Would dare to say, if a few heads in scheme are detected, to be prosecuted legally in RL. LMFAO!! ITS A GAME!!!! GET OVER IT
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:51:00 - [703] Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Its called gallows humour. Its something you use when things are pretty damned bad and pretty much the only thing left to do is smile wistfully and just get on with it. This issue is very significant indeed to the political balance of eve online and depending on how widespread its been in the past could well damage the reputation and integrity of alliance game in 0.0 profoundly. Re the Pearl Reference - well can you expect? Very few Eve players or devs or whatnot were even alive back then. WW2 has become part of the cultural storehouse of memes for the current generation to conjure from. Doesn't do to get overly precious about such things. CCP using the quote is no more disrespectful than THQ using real battles and operations to make rts scenarioes from in company of heroes. Human beings experience, they make history, that history gets turned into popular culture. If you really want to take a shot at somebody for making an absolute joke out of the American losses at Pearl Harbour then you should start with Michael Bay. ISSUE - Bring back live events
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:51:00 - [704] Originally by: Elrca I want cookies! Would sir like them drenched in bear tears ? I do apologise sir seems the last 23 pages of bear tears has made them somewhat soggy but we can offer you some nice spotted **** ?
Millenia Fallenwing	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:52:00 - [705] Just did a calculation if that 3000 Billion isk was turned into game time cards. thats 5Million Game time cards If people were crazy enough to sell game time cards on Ebay. thats ú200 Million Pounds. thats $300Million Dollers
Peter Wheatstraw Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:52:00 - [706] Originally by: God GirlFriend Originally by: Karla Kay Originally by: Leakim jones Originally by: Karla Kay ..........CCP should do a search for the word ferrogel in all conversation logs of alliance leaders.................... Ummm......... Coke dealers don't call it coke. Weed dealers don't call it weed. Your suggestion needs to be rethought. A simple look at asset transfers between corps, and sales logs involving the alleged materials is more than sufficient and will be most revealing. Forensic Accounting isn't really THAT damned difficult.
SentryRaven KIA Corp	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:52:00 - [707] They are not going to give out names. I'd be more outraged if they did, rather than all that well-played outrage being displayed here by some people. -------- EBANK Forum Manager
Mendolorian Girl Caldari The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:53:00 - [708] The timing of this is interesting at best.. Alchemy was introduced a short while ago.. I find it hard to believe that this wasn't introduced for the express purpose of propping up the economy once this exploit was rectified. That's fair enough, but at least be open about it. I wasn't really around when the Bob BPO issue was being dealt with, but it does sound like CCP haven't learned much about being open with the community. You'll find that people are a lot more forgiving if they're just told the truth. Of course, by truth, I mean the whole truth without omissions. Meh, you could've written nicely detailed article detailing the measures you took in verifying the exploit, finding those responsible for utilising it and what measures you've taken to prop up the economy and also to ensure that it doesn't happen again. It would've been featured in many gaming magazine sites and provided some great publicity for how an open and honest runs a great game. Fail :(
Aubrey Luna Creative Shipyards	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:56:00 - [709] Am I annoyed @ CCP? NO. Why? It was petitioned when found, and the GM probably had 1000's of petitions and this one got lost. A bug report should have been created by the offender as he/she knew it was wrong. This is not CCP's fault. Should CCP name and shame? No. Why? Why bother, what can "we" do. And people saying Alliances should be disbanded etc.. are just stupid. Top members of alliances don't know what each and every member of their alliance does. This has been going on for 4 years OMGTFBBQ! So what? someone got rich quick, and your just sorry you didn't and made all the ISK you could. Its human behavour, find something you can exploit and exploit it!! I'm sure 90% of the Eve population has looked for "cheats" everybody does. whats done is done, adapt or die. Its just a game and thats how I see EvE as a "GAME" I play for fun and enjoyment.
wassssabi	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:57:00 - [710] Whomever got banned, I applaud you. You won eve :) This game was never supposed to be fair anyways. Nicely done.

Elrca Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:57:00 - [711] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Originally by: Elrca I want cookies! Would sir like them drenched in bear tears ? I do apologise sir seems the last 23 pages of bear tears has made them somewhat soggy but we can offer you some nice spotted **** ? Oh yes pleassssee...!
Psychotic Penguin Gallente The Professional's Club The Second Genesis	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:59:00 - [712] Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 14:43:18 Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 14:38:37 Found this post on scrapheap. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 1. Why has this issue not taken care of all these years ago. 2. WHY should it take a number of petitions to get a problem fixed. 3. Why has Band of Brothers alliance got 20 Large towers with the same setups in Delve to exploit this type of reaction for the past 4 years? This is a post below which i have copied and pasted from Scrapheap "The expanse of this so far is probably lost on most people so I would like to make a few facts clear. In the past 4 jears we are talking about ISK in value of 2.500.000.000.000 ISK to 3.000.000.000.000 ISK. ThatÆs 2500 û 3000 billion. Everyone that owns a T2 item can bet that it was build in part from resources due to this phenomenon. At this point I would like to thank CCP for making it possible to buy GTCÆs with ISK. So much about us. " 1. bugs has to be sent in as bug reports not petitions to get to the correct people 2. maybe the GM receiving the petition 4 years ago was involved in the cheating. Penguins suggest CCP adds bug reporting to the petition system ____________________________________________________ Reality is for those who have no imagination.
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 14:59:00 - [713] As I've tried to explain to GM's a few times, where bugreports where discarded, CCP should finally reshape the GM department, and let them contact DEVS if a problem is reported. It's rediculous that exploits need to be reported somewhere, bugs (which can be exploited) must be done somewhere else, and if you expirience problems you have to use an ingame tool. In the MMO I was GM of, there was ONE system to report EVERYTHING, and GM's delegated them to the proper devisions. That way a report didn't end up at the wrong department , and wouldn't be discarded like many things are discarded in EVE. ---- [PXIN Recruiter] PXIN Recruitement thread
mamolian Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:00:00 - [714] Cheers for the update Wrangler! Ban those fuggin cheaters! -----------
murrue PARABELUM-Project	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:01:00 - [715] Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 11/12/2008 14:43:42 Quote: We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. Translation: We found 7 alt corporations. Three of with were stupid enough to be in an alliance. NAMES! WE WANT NAMES! CCP you had better be open about this with the community. It's time to name the offenders and punish those that benefited. Sure it will be alt alliances too.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:02:00 - [716] Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Just did a calculation if that 3000 Billion isk was turned into game time cards. thats 5Million Game time cards If people were crazy enough to sell game time cards on Ebay. thats ú200 Million Pounds. thats $300Million Dollers You should get your school money back...... (ie..... spot your mistake) Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:03:00 - [717] Originally by: Psychotic Penguin Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 14:43:18 Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 14:38:37 Found this post on scrapheap. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 1. Why has this issue not taken care of all these years ago. 2. WHY should it take a number of petitions to get a problem fixed. 3. Why has Band of Brothers alliance got 20 Large towers with the same setups in Delve to exploit this type of reaction for the past 4 years? This is a post below which i have copied and pasted from Scrapheap "The expanse of this so far is probably lost on most people so I would like to make a few facts clear. In the past 4 jears we are talking about ISK in value of 2.500.000.000.000 ISK to 3.000.000.000.000 ISK. ThatÆs 2500 û 3000 billion. Everyone that owns a T2 item can bet that it was build in part from resources due to this phenomenon. At this point I would like to thank CCP for making it possible to buy GTCÆs with ISK. So much about us. " 1. bugs has to be sent in as bug reports not petitions to get to the correct people 2. maybe the GM receiving the petition 4 years ago was involved in the cheating. Penguins suggest CCP adds bug reporting to the petition system That's unpossible!
Elrca Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:03:00 - [718] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Just did a calculation if that 3000 Billion isk was turned into game time cards. thats 5Million Game time cards If people were crazy enough to sell game time cards on Ebay. thats ú200 Million Pounds. thats $300Million Dollers You should get your school money back...... (ie..... spot your mistake) rofl .. someone get him a calculator
TroNaaR Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:05:00 - [719] I would like a chunk of that 3000 Billion. How many game time cards could you buy for 3000 Billion isk? Also: CCP, please send that isk to this character. Thanks!
Kassumma	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:05:00 - [720] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Didn't you read my previous post? He referred to the assiasination of Cicero on the 7th Dec 43 BC! do you have a clue? http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/day-of-infamy/images/infamy-address-1.gif on topic, it happened, it sucks. ban the people involved. take their isk and accounts (and alternate accounts) but try not to hit too many people who weren't involved with the banstick.

Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:05:00 - [721] Thank you for the update. The alliances involved as whole have to be held accountable, they are legal entities in the social and economical context of eve. Assess the economical damage, discard from that sum the value of the personal assets already seized. Assess the assets held by the guilty alliances executors and member corporations. Fine the involved alliances with a percentage of their total assets, that is appropriate with regards to the economical damage done minus already seized assets. Similiar regulation exist in real life and with good reasons. In complex economical contexts the profits a whole has gained, from wrongdoings of a part of it, are not allways precisely assessable.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:05:00 - [722] Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Because Cubba Gooding Jr should have had a bigger part. Btw the world did exist for a few billion years before the USA. Could it be they had another historical event in mind? No surely not, only American history is important. -- * Brace for Impact! *
Jane Bennet Caldari Alloyed Tritanium Bar And Grill	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:05:00 - [723] Originally by: Neddy Fox In the MMO I was GM of, there was ONE system to report EVERYTHING, and GM's delegated them to the proper devisions And how is that MMO doing nowadays?
Izanami Amane	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:08:00 - [724] Edited by: Izanami Amane on 11/12/2008 15:08:17 Originally by: Argosus Originally by: Seishi Maru And mostly important MAIN director characters of the true corps that received that type of isk must be banned. Would dare to say, if a few heads in scheme are detected, to be prosecuted legally in RL. LMFAO!! ITS A GAME!!!! GET OVER IT Izanami Amane steals Argosuses Monopoly money while he's looking away
Zoiewu	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:08:00 - [725] If we get some good evidence of those 2 Alliances, And the other corps involved then maybe the community should react by letting our guns speak for us.
Liddliss Fett Gallente Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:09:00 - [726] CCP Quick and Reliable once again! God Bless CCP /Sarcasm
Shpuntik Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:09:00 - [727] Edited by: Shpuntik on 11/12/2008 15:13:36 well to me the system CCP uses is there and it can work it could be better with few changes but it just needs the right people and attitude to get it working keeping on top of the petitions over all timezones dealing with them quickly and correctly. Also in the new Murethand sales we have special offers on fire torches (matches not included) and pitchforks so get them while stock last. ---InViCtA---
zipperstopperking	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:10:00 - [728] Originally by: Straight Chillen I heard about this once quite a while ago. And i wrote if off to the drunken ramblings of a southern man. God damn i coullda been rich yeh ya mite have gotten rich but if ya did you would be the 71th suspanded account dopy
CootBoot GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:10:00 - [729] Hey mouthbreathers, you realize that the exploit guy on SHC was lying when he said he petitioned it 4 years ago, right? "Hmm. This cheater is telling me he did the honest thing once and then never again for 4 years. Yase. This makes sense." You sad dumb ****s
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:11:00 - [730] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 11/12/2008 15:16:10 Originally by: Irongut Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Because Cubba Gooding Jr should have had a bigger part. Btw the world did exist for a few billion years before the USA. Could it be they had another historical event in mind? No surely not, only American history is important. Normally I do not gloat.. but this is just hilarious :) As far as the possible sums involved, a few ballpark figures: 1 Ferrogel Reactor = 5 billion isk/month (output value @20k isk/unit) Lets say those 70 accounts operated averagely one POS: Total Economical Damage per Month = 350 bil/isk Well thats just with 1 POS per account average and ignoring the possible takup of the market, which is difficult to assess since we do not know if only this, or all reactions were exploitable.

Nyu Shin	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:11:00 - [731] WTS: torch "Inquisitor" tar "black death" feathers "angel dust"
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:14:00 - [732] MM keeps coming up as guilty c/d?
Scott Woods	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:15:00 - [733] As a game developer in another company, I am both saddened and disgusted by this. CCP, your protection for your people has gone to far, and in the end you are currently burning what limited good will you have from your customers and your peers in the industry. This is stupid of you. You have shamed yourself far too many times in the past for this to be a simple mistake. I hereby call out the CEO of CCP to explain all this in great detail to prove his own competence. I demand that he give a full accounting of this in order to protect both his good name as the CEO who should know what is going on in his company, and the good name of his company and its employees as it slowly goes down the toilet bowl from the corruption that is infesting and destroying it. This is not a request, this is a demand. As a customer, and his peer.
Caramena	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:15:00 - [734] Originally by: thelung187 Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Just did a calculation if that 3000 Billion isk was turned into game time cards. thats 5Million Game time cards If people were crazy enough to sell game time cards on Ebay. thats ú200 Million Pounds. thats $300Million Dollers Fail math is fail. Metric problem or language problem?
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:16:00 - [735] Originally by: Plague Black Someone should start investigating major alliances that lost members lately and find out which alliances got corps closed on this day. I'm too lazy for that right now. Check in mirror for them
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:17:00 - [736] As far as the possible sums involved, a few ballpark figures: 1 Ferrogel Reactor = 5 billion isk/month (output value @20k isk/unit) Lets say those 70 accounts operated averagely one POS: Total Economical Damage per Month = 350 bil/isk Well thats just with 1 POS per account average and ignoring the possible takup of the market, which is difficult to assess since we do not know if only this, or all reactions were exploitable.
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:17:00 - [737] Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Just did a calculation if that 3000 Billion isk was turned into game time cards. thats 5Million Game time cards If people were crazy enough to sell game time cards on Ebay. thats ú200 Million Pounds. thats $300Million Dollers WTB: GTC's for 600K Each Seriously though, thats still 10 Thousand 3 Month GTC's for your 3000 Billion assuming 300 Mill per PLEX.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:19:00 - [738] Sorry CCP, alchemy is NOT going to be enough to stabilize supply. Another solution must be found.
geno effort GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:24:00 - [739] Originally by: Gamer4liff Another solution must be found. fly t1
Sobic Kurophsky Multiversal Enterprise Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:25:00 - [740] EMO QUIT EMO QUIT!!!!! OMG people its a f'n GAME!!!! They fixed it, awesome! --> Insert hot chick sig here, with minor eve reference<--

Shpuntik Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:26:00 - [741] sorry not a goon T1 is taboo for us but guess means just have to kill more and steal all the loots =D yarrr! ---InViCtA---
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:27:00 - [742] Originally by: Jane Bennet Originally by: Neddy Fox In the MMO I was GM of, there was ONE system to report EVERYTHING, and GM's delegated them to the proper devisions And how is that MMO doing nowadays? Being revived, and going live again in a couple of months :) But your point is moot, as it doesn't relate to how the helpdesk-system worked. The game died to a few dedicated people who made the publisher crawl under a rock and give up. ---- [PXIN Recruiter] PXIN Recruitement thread
Killer Gandry Caldari Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:27:00 - [743] Edited by: Killer Gandry on 11/12/2008 15:28:14 I do understand the righteous indignation people feel. However as long as there is no transparancy in this matter it is all speculation about how widespread this whole thing is. In my opinion the only way to fight the fire of outrage that is blazing through the EVE community is by giving out more information about the whole situation. I don't agree with the naming and shaming simply because people will look at a complete Alliance as being guilty for the misbehaviour of a part of their Alliance. This isn't the way it should work. Though I do have my preferences ingame for certain Alliances and my dislikes for some otehr Alliances, this doesn't mean all the people in the Alliances are friends or people I should dislike or even hate. We do tend to forget that behind the characters you meet in EVE are real people, some are fair players, some less fair, but you can't hold a whole Corporation or even a whole Alliance accountable for the misbehaviour of a few. CCP has several choices to handle this issue at hand, and covering up the whole thing isn't one of them. What we deserve or not deserve in matter of openess isn't for us to decide however, we can ask for it but claiming or demanding for information won't make anyone jump up and just give out any and all information. History has proven that right and wrong is dictated by those who write down the history, let's just hope CCP writes it in an honest way by actually being a bit more open to it's customer base.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:27:00 - [744] CCP, as you said, this exploit as had a deep impact on the markets. And your last news implied that it has been going on for a long time, maybe the 4 years claimed by one of hte banned peeps. One of it's effects has been to lower the price of dysprosium, inducing losses to any corp having dysprosium moons for any period of time. We're talking about several billions loss per moon, per year, here... Are you going to do something to evaluate those losses, and compensate for them? ------------------------------------------
CootBoot GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:28:00 - [745] Originally by: Shpuntik sorry not a goon T1 is taboo for us but guess means just have to kill more and steal all the loots =D yarrr! gonnie t1 rifters yase
Sunsu	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:28:00 - [746] Look mum im in a dramabomb Quick lets ragequit b4 its 2l8
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:29:00 - [747] The extent of this and the wealth that came from it... you can very well be CERTAIN several large alliances have taken part... BoB, Goons, MM... I mean come one... thosands of billions upon billions... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where those billions have gone. Do you think those who exploited this bought a fleet of Caracals? Get real... I'm not tossing out flamebait, but just my opinion. Those who have done this, if they were smart, had alt corps... but if CCP is smart (let's hope so) the can easily track where it all went. Right now, they are having a huge meeting on whether or not to tell the Eve world these huge alliances cheated their way there... and the impact is too far to be reversed, so they'll have to let them be and hope things settle down. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:29:00 - [748] Jeez. Everyone whining about supply and "OMG PRICES!@#!@" If you guys were smart, you would realize that this is your chance to cut yourself a big fat piece of the corrected t2 market and start producing t2 materials or investing in those that already are.
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:29:00 - [749] For everyone saying "Its just a game FFS" Im not upset about ingame economy that will be damaged after this nor that i will lose isk on it. Im upset because i pay my subscription fees and these ppl have been able to generate isk by exploiting to not having to pay for any of their acc:s that ticks me off a bit, thats RL money.
thelung187 Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:30:00 - [750] Originally by: Gamer4liff Sorry CCP, alchemy is NOT going to be enough to stabilize supply. Another solution must be found. Alchemy IS the solution. Just because T2 has become virtually meaningless due to price, does not mean that because you wish it to remain cheap that it should stay that way. That said, I stocked up on T2 like it was canned goods during an air raid.

Salliene Gallente Terracorp Technologies Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:30:00 - [751] Thanks for acknowledging and fixing this CCP! Watching the fallout of this exploit (and the users who were caught) being removed from the game should be interesting over the next few months. I anticipate many more threads full of epic win. One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe
Catherine Bennet Caldari Alloyed Tritanium Bar And Grill	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:30:00 - [752] Originally by: Scott Woods As a game developer in another company, I am both saddened and disgusted by this. CCP, your protection for your people has gone to far, and in the end you are currently burning what limited good will you have from your customers and your peers in the industry. This is stupid of you. Um... So are you saying that they should NOT have: - banned the directly involved accounts - destroyed the directly involved POSes - Continued their investigation into the matter? Because to me it reads like that, or alternatively like you're talking out of your horse-related animal famous for it's stubborness.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:33:00 - [753] Originally by: rValdez5987 I just wanted to add a bit of irony. In the real world money has literally disappeared with financial's and banking disappearing or otherwise going bankrupt. Now in eve, trillons of isk are supposedly gained through exploitation. Luckily for us, no matter what the situation is in the markets, there will always be a base income until CCP changes it. There will always be missions to run. Ah but don't you know? Mission running is bad. The 0.0 folks say that it causes an unwarranted influx of ISK into the game that distorts the economy. Ah. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:33:00 - [754] Edited by: Troubadour on 11/12/2008 15:33:19 Originally by: Pithecanthropus The extent of this and the wealth that came from it... you can very well be CERTAIN several large alliances have taken part... BoB, Goons, MM... I mean come one... I'm not certain. Infact, I think that most of the large powerblocks had nothing to do with this. Look at alliances like D2 (now evoke etc) that owned half the space of BoB yet somehow were all insanely rich. Look for alliance/corp powerhouses that try to keep a low profile and you'll probably find your offenders among them.
Nathan Baxter Absolutely No Retreat Blade.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:34:00 - [755] Originally by: Sobic Kurophsky EMO QUIT EMO QUIT!!!!! OMG people its a f'n GAME!!!! They fixed it, awesome! what he said !
Ronats Brother	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:36:00 - [756] Don't tell me, when originally alerted to the exploit, the reply was - 'I'm sorry, our server logs don't show anything'. Oh, and can you tell us the location of the moons, I have some spare POS I could do with setting up :)
Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:37:00 - [757] Btw, has anyone checked the online game manual whether this is listed as a tip on how to make money for a beginner alliances? I'm just saying...
CommmanderInChief Comply Or Die	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:39:00 - [758] Well its great to see the 'holier than thou' comments in this thread. Cmon seriously if you would of known about this you would of done it yourselves, without the slightest consideration for the 'market' or anything else, except lining your own pockets.. Now is it exploit? Well no not at all - you are use the game mechanics to your advantage. If its anyones fault then its CCPs for developing it that way, I mean for god sake they people who did it even sent a petition to CCP!! CCP did nothing! So whos fault is it.??? I mean you ban ppls accounts when they warned you about the problem and they are working to the games mechanics. CCP you developed it, and you ignored it...the blame is on your shoulders...dont use these people as scapegoats...
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:39:00 - [759] Edited by: Pithecanthropus on 11/12/2008 15:39:29 Originally by: Troubadour Edited by: Troubadour on 11/12/2008 15:33:19 Originally by: Pithecanthropus The extent of this and the wealth that came from it... you can very well be CERTAIN several large alliances have taken part... BoB, Goons, MM... I mean come one... I'm not certain. Infact, I think that most of the large powerblocks had nothing to do with this. Look at alliances like D2 (now evoke etc) that owned half the space of BoB yet somehow were all insanely rich. Look for alliance/corp powerhouses that try to keep a low profile and you'll probably find your offenders among them. The fact is, this happened... the trickle down effect of it has already done its damage. The map of Eve can probably be correlated to the wealth pushed out by this exploit. Maybe some alliances unknowingly dealt with mass quantities, but I strongly feel when all the cards are dealt in the scheme, you'll see some very well know alliances who played a role. You can't fault the entire bunch, but there's no question they got to where they are from this exploit. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:39:00 - [760] HAHAHA, finally the Russians isk farmers get caught!

Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:39:00 - [761] Originally by: rValdez5987 I just wanted to add a bit of irony. In the real world money has literally disappeared with financial's and banking disappearing or otherwise going bankrupt. Now in eve, trillons of isk are supposedly gained through exploitation. Luckily for us, no matter what the situation is in the markets, there will always be a base income until CCP changes it. There will always be missions to run. The ironic thing is, in real life, banks really do literally create money from thin air when they create loans, with the value being based both on the liability of the party getting the loan and the existing money in the system. They never give up any of their own reserves. Thank you fractional reserve banking system. At least in eve, we have constants in the form of NPC goods (pos towers, some pos fuel items, skillbooks, outpost materials, etc etc) that would prevent the market from completely crashing.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:39:00 - [762] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 11/12/2008 15:42:51 Originally by: geno effort Originally by: Gamer4liff Another solution must be found. fly t1 Scuse me I make T2, this is going to kill margins across the board for all T2 producers. Originally by: thelung187 Originally by: Gamer4liff Sorry CCP, alchemy is NOT going to be enough to stabilize supply. Another solution must be found. Alchemy IS the solution. Just because T2 has become virtually meaningless due to price, does not mean that because you wish it to remain cheap that it should stay that way. That said, I stocked up on T2 like it was canned goods during an air raid. You're confused, I don't care about the sale price, I only care about my margins. I am a T2 producer, and if my costs increase, my margins decrease. Especially because people are too dumb to change the price up to match the new costs.
Sierra Lima	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:40:00 - [763] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 11/12/2008 09:55:31 We know about one exploit case with an estimated 2500-3000 bilions isk taken away from legitimate high-end moon owners. We know two other entities abused the same mechanics. AFAIK, there's something like 250 dysprosium moons. I think it's safe to say that at least 50% of the exploit was about dyspro-related products. What does that mean for one dyspro moon? (3 000 000 000 0000.50) / ((3654)*250) = 4 millions per day loss That's a minimal estimate! It could be five that that much. That's a large amount of money for corp having a moon for an extended period of time. Can you imagine what it mean for Evolution or Reikoku? Dozens of billions, possibly hundreds. So, here's the big question: Will CCP make at least a partial compensation? Compensation? Why? I believe that TCF have made quite enough ISK from shady moon-mining.
Ethidium Bromide Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:41:00 - [764] damn... another great exploit i knew nothing of well CCP, good job you handeled it in about a week, bad job in not finding it in 4 years (if this has been used for 4 years). some basic research into products and educts database could help prevent this in the future? Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:42:00 - [765] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: geno effort Originally by: Gamer4liff Another solution must be found. fly t1 Scuse me I make T2, this is going to kill margins across the board for all T2 producers. How? Once the current supply dries up, raised T2 material prices will lead to some of that being passed to the consumer. In the long run T2 ship producers will actualy profit from this.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:45:00 - [766] Originally by: Rawthorm Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: geno effort Originally by: Gamer4liff Another solution must be found. fly t1 Scuse me I make T2, this is going to kill margins across the board for all T2 producers. How? Once the current supply dries up, raised T2 material prices will lead to some of that being passed to the consumer. In the long run T2 ship producers will actualy profit from this. Prices are sticky, and as I said people are too dumb and spineless to raise the price to the necessary amounts, at least in my experience.
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:46:00 - [767] NAME AND SHAME: Alliance involed: Evoke (former D2, G) Mostly Harmless (former D2, TRUST, Xetic)
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:47:00 - [768] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Mr John22ta Edited by: Mr John22ta on 11/12/2008 14:02:26 Originally by: Sma Balveda Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, Nice historical allusion there.... Yeah, nice to see they have a sense of humour about this Hmm, is this exploit really comparible to pearl harbour? Pearl harbour?? He was referring to the assasination of Marcus Tullius Cicero on the 7th Dec 43 BC!! Or to quote from a Carry On film: "Infamy, infamy..they've all got it in for me." ..well it was funny the first time I watched it -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Argosus	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:48:00 - [769] Originally by: zipperstopperking 71th suspanded account dopy What language is this?
Highpriest Aden	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:49:00 - [770] I dont belive for a single second that CCP hasent know this for quite some time, there is a fixed number of C64 moons ingame, and they are all beeing harvestet 24/7. So with some reverse Enginering it would have been foolishing easy to see exactly how much is beeing produced. mabuy not from a day to day periode, but over a certain timeframe. I suspect that you dident "show'ed" us this before, cos the comunity would still get angry about it, even if you did it a year ago. You have known this bug for quite some time, you just dident wantet to kill the bug and ban the accounts BEFORE you had inventet a way to make thise rare minerals in another way, cos it would have trashed the market completly!! I call out for honesty from CCP's side. I'm extremly dissapointet, I have 5 paying accounts, and this game is giving me much joy, but dishonesthy like this CCP, soo dissapointet. It recalls bad memoryies with some inventet T2 BPO's I could imagen that thise 70 accounts you have banned has all been createt for this sole purpose. I want a full investagation with all of the IP's that has been logged onto thise accounts, dig hard, dig long. Ban evryone that has been in contact with thise dirty money! I want to see Titans beeing removed from the game. I want to see BPO's beeing removed from the game. I want to see alliance leaderships beeing banned. But above all. Be honest about it. Please CCP!! you owe us this much.

Uhr Zylex Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Blade.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:49:00 - [771] Edited by: Uhr Zylex on 11/12/2008 15:49:34 Wow. This is pretty massive. Way to undermine the credibility of the whole in-game universe. Everything on Tranquility seem kind of pointless after this.
Argosus	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:50:00 - [772] Originally by: Burn Mac For everyone saying "Its just a game FFS" Im not upset about ingame economy that will be damaged after this nor that i will lose isk on it. Im upset because i pay my subscription fees and these ppl have been able to generate isk by exploiting to not having to pay for any of their acc:s that ticks me off a bit, thats RL money. so really what ur mad about is that you didn't find an exploit to save you rl money?
Mara Kell Steel Beasts Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:50:00 - [773] Originally by: CCP Wrangler On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. 5 days is a alot of time to bring down abusive POSes isnt it? I hope that no one escaped the investigations that way.
LordSnoopY Amarr Squirrel Mutation Experiment	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:52:00 - [774] Thx CCP for nothing, thats blame all other players ...
Breaky Uzumaki Caldari The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:53:00 - [775] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Its called gallows humour. Its something you use when things are pretty damned bad and pretty much the only thing left to do is smile wistfully and just get on with it. This issue is very significant indeed to the political balance of eve online and depending on how widespread its been in the past could well damage the reputation and integrity of alliance game in 0.0 profoundly. Re the Pearl Reference - well can you expect? Very few Eve players or devs or whatnot were even alive back then. WW2 has become part of the cultural storehouse of memes for the current generation to conjure from. Doesn't do to get overly precious about such things. CCP using the quote is no more disrespectful than THQ using real battles and operations to make rts scenarioes from in company of heroes. Human beings experience, they make history, that history gets turned into popular culture. If you really want to take a shot at somebody for making an absolute joke out of the American losses at Pearl Harbour then you should start with Michael Bay. A... A Jade Constantine post that I like and agree with, will wonders never cease?
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:53:00 - [776] 3 things need to be done now... (1) Full detail - tell the Eve community the what players, corps, and alliance were all involved... to what extent? How much was made? Where it went? How it trickled down? The effects of the market? Every detail, come clean and show the players that actually work hard and pay for this game what they deserve to have... ANSWERS. (2) Hand out penalties to alliances and corps involved. I don't care if 99% of the alliance played by the rules. If 1 guy... 1 corp... taints you, you all fall. You all need to take responsibility and accountability. That's up to CCP to decide what actions to take against them. They can find a fine line and penalize them. (3) Compensations to those that are honorable and put in efforts. All the players that had impatcs to THEIR game from other exploiting this issue. We may guess at how much was GAIN... how about finding out how much was LOST from this? Free titans? Free doomsdays? Free outposts? That's a gain that just keeps on giving! Will those be removed? CCP needs to compensate, whatever they do... hey, I'm here if you need the help trying to decide! --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:54:00 - [777] Can someone explain to me why these guys where banned. Did they know they did something wrong? www.garia.net
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:56:00 - [778] Originally by: Mara Kell 5 days is a alot of time to bring down abusive POSes isnt it? I hope that no one escaped the investigations that way. If CCP has a halfway decent logging/tracking system (and they better) it won't matter if POSes get offlined. Christ, people rag on Blizzard, but they can pull up things you said months ago in chat or trace money/item transfers across dozens of accounts and characters, you'd hope CCP would be at least be able to see who was benefiting from the resources beyond the accounts directly tied to the exploiting.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:56:00 - [779] We will never know what 0.0 would have been like if it weren't for this exploit, but we should be able to react in-game to the knowledge of the people that did this. Please identify the perpetrating corps so that we can give them social consequences --I don't want to unknowingly have dealings with them.
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:56:00 - [780] Originally by: Garia666 Can someone explain to me why these guys where banned. Did they know they did something wrong? ROTFL

Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:57:00 - [781] Originally by: Gamer4liff Prices are sticky, and as I said people are too dumb and spineless to raise the price to the necessary amounts, at least in my experience. Did you ever consider that margins are so low because some have been able to produce materials out of thin air? You should celebrate, and seriously, go look up the market logs. Prices do fluctuate quite a bit. Sticky my ass ( it's true! ).
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:59:00 - [782] Originally by: Garia666 Can someone explain to me why these guys where banned. Did they know they did something wrong? Lol, nothing wrong' with creating t2 components out of thin air, the steps to reproduce this exploit cannot be found accidentially, so intent is there. in any case ignorance is not an excuse. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:59:00 - [783] Originally by: Miklas Laces Originally by: Garia666 Can someone explain to me why these guys where banned. Did they know they did something wrong? ROTFL ? well im prob the only one.. but i have no clue on what the epxloit was. I know only what i read on the forum.. www.garia.net
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:00:00 - [784] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 11/12/2008 16:03:40 Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: Gamer4liff Prices are sticky, and as I said people are too dumb and spineless to raise the price to the necessary amounts, at least in my experience. Did you ever consider that margins are so low because some have been able to produce materials out of thin air? You should celebrate, and seriously, go look up the market logs. Prices do fluctuate quite a bit. Sticky my ass ( it's true! ). I'm not sure how you think this would work, if anything cheaper reaction prices leads to cheaper component prices which leads to a cheaper build cost, which leads to higher margins. Also I'm sure there's some nerdy economic way to explain this, but in low demand markets prices tend to get stuck more, and are harder to move, and I deal in a lot of those.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:00:00 - [785] Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: Garia666 Can someone explain to me why these guys where banned. Did they know they did something wrong? Lol, nothing wrong' with creating t2 components out of thin air, the steps to reproduce this exploit cannot be found accidentially, so intent is there. in any case ignorance is not an excuse. ah ok cheers www.garia.net
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:02:00 - [786] Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki A... A Jade Constantine post that I like and agree with, will wonders never cease? Well, it IS the economic apocalypse. That said, I don't know why people are so up in arms about CCP's slow response to this. Everyone should know that it takes them at LEAST two years to respond to any bug. Chimera model, fighter/drone blobs causing rendering lag, T20, etc. That they're a year or so outside their SLA is unfortunate, but I'm sure they'll be back up to speed shortly.
Reckaw H A V O C Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:03:00 - [787] OMG RUN FOR THE EXITS!!! Of course, the beauty of finding major issues like this is they very well reflect life now don't they? Enron, Cable and Wireless, major banks in the last 3 months, your house price and the dismal development of your 401k... we wouldn't want that type of RL drudgery to enter our pretty shiny fictional world which should be perfect... flawless from programming error... absent of the gutter elements of human nature. You know you like the drama... just admit it... and really, the rumors are half the fun so stop asking for more details from "the Architects".
Srioghal moDhream	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:03:00 - [788] HEy, maybe GTC's will fall back to their pre 60d levels since there will be much less demand for them as a lot of the people buying them may have gotten banned.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:07:00 - [789] Originally by: Srioghal moDhream HEy, maybe GTC's will fall back to their pre 60d levels since there will be much less demand for them as a lot of the people buying them may have gotten banned. with only 70 accounts being banned, i do not see how this would influence gtc prices.
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:07:00 - [790] Originally by: Srioghal moDhream HEy, maybe GTC's will fall back to their pre 60d levels since there will be much less demand for them as a lot of the people buying them may have gotten banned. They'll go up steadily as the banned folks find their way back into game and pick up their expensive habits from their untraceable npc item stacks on trial accounts :P ≡v≡

Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:10:00 - [791] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. Friggin joygasm! I endorse this tough love. And as for comments criticizing a holier-than-thou attitude, no, not everyone would have used this exploit given the chance, and while anything you do in-game is technically utilizing a game mechanic there's a difference between that and using an unintended game mechanic. Sure, some things CCP should have seen coming like the use of Black Ops ships to evade CONCORD, but I mean come on, offlined POS components collecting materials? That didn't strike anyone as odd? Personally I'm looking forward to whatever chaos this has on the market. Hell, combine this situation with a removal of T1 unnamed modules from missions and a minor reduction in PvE-acquired loot of all meta levels and you might even give smaller industrial entities the ability to compete with the guys holding a library of fully researched T-one BP's, thanks to the increased demand for unnamed T-one items. That's assuming that T2 suddenly flies out of the practical price range for casual players. Maybe I'm assuming too much at this point though, so meh.
Dissonance Unit	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:11:00 - [792] The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. This is bogus, this is going to take more action then just sweeping it under the carpet and letting the playerbase sort it out for you. If CCP Will do nothing and let the econamy melt (RL is one thing this is a game) then EVE finaly fails, and you loose my 2 subscriptions. Can wy say ecanomic stimulus? Bail out plan? I'm sure many of you will stay to rebuild but if CCP stays the course of non action and lets the fit hit the shan for the community to secure stability, then CCP finaly fails me and i walk. I have always loved EVE, and i have only ever had a few minor issues with CCP's actions or polocy's. The game has always trumped those issues in spades considering there is nothing like it on the market. Well no i feel cheated and a bit betrayd. CCP you pay a DR. to oversee the economy right? where did he work before... the US?... Ford?... GM... how do you not see somting like this coming? Please CCP take some action, step up have a game plan, find a community plyable solution, implement it with some sort of transparancy...
Ansala Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:12:00 - [793] All these exploiting accounts were non-paying anyway, so banning them costs CCP nothing. In fact if someone wanted to go all tin-foil hattery, CCP is only doing this now as a revenue decision; they decided they could increase subscription income by removing this means for people to play without paying. The entire alchemy process could be viewed as an indication they knew they were going to close this exploit and had to provide an alternative supply. The OP says CCP received a petition and acted on it; it doesn't say this was the first, or that CCP wasn't already aware of the issue. It is hard to believe CCP wasn't aware of this well before the petition they finally acted on.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:13:00 - [794] well, Morsus Mihi sure were rich for an alliance with such AWFUL space weren't they... lets think about that a bit... how did they fund 8 titans from a region with 1 high end moon and no decent mining? answers on a postcard
Daviclond GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:13:00 - [795] name and shame the alliances already i want to get my troll on
b0nton	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:14:00 - [796] Originally by: Dissonance Unit :emo: Post with jermaine if you're going to quit. Also, all stuff goes to this char, thx.
Virtuozzo The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:14:00 - [797] Wes, this isn't CAOD .. ≡v≡
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:15:00 - [798] Originally by: Dissonance Unit The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. This is bogus, this is going to take more action then just sweeping it under the carpet and letting the playerbase sort it out for you. If CCP Will do nothing and let the econamy melt (RL is one thing this is a game) then EVE finaly fails, and you loose my 2 subscriptions. Can wy say ecanomic stimulus? Bail out plan? I'm sure many of you will stay to rebuild but if CCP stays the course of non action and lets the fit hit the shan for the community to secure stability, then CCP finaly fails me and i walk. I have always loved EVE, and i have only ever had a few minor issues with CCP's actions or polocy's. The game has always trumped those issues in spades considering there is nothing like it on the market. Well no i feel cheated and a bit betrayd. CCP you pay a DR. to oversee the economy right? where did he work before... the US?... Ford?... GM... how do you not see somting like this coming? Please CCP take some action, step up have a game plan, find a community plyable solution, implement it with some sort of transparancy... If the economy is built on lies it deserves to melt down.
Captin Corsair	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:15:00 - [799] This is truly a horrible thing to happen. I hope CCP write up a full review letting all the players know what was going on, how it happened, how it went unnoticed for so long and what measures will be taken in future to prevent a similar situation.
thelung187 Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:15:00 - [800] Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone?

Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:17:00 - [801] Originally by: Ansala All these exploiting accounts were non-paying anyway, so banning them costs CCP nothing. In fact if someone wanted to go all tin-foil hattery, CCP is only doing this now as a revenue decision; they decided they could increase subscription income by removing this means for people to play without paying. The entire alchemy process could be viewed as an indication they knew they were going to close this exploit and had to provide an alternative supply. The OP says CCP received a petition and acted on it; it doesn't say this was the first, or that CCP wasn't already aware of the issue. It is hard to believe CCP wasn't aware of this well before the petition they finally acted on. You have a lamentably poor understanding of the economics surrounding timecards. You also believe the guy that posted about getting busted for cheating, when he has no motivation to tell the truth.
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:17:00 - [802] Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? Re-seeding them would hardly matter given that the lottery is dead and gone.
Amber Coldheart Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:18:00 - [803] Originally by: Dissonance Unit CCP you pay a DR. to oversee the economy right? where did he work before... the US?... Ford?... GM... how do you not see somting like this coming? You forgot the most obvious answer, which would be Icelands financial department
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:19:00 - [804] Edited by: Garia666 on 11/12/2008 16:19:52 Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? ppl can be unbanned. again I know an US guy who was banned for buying isk.. permanent. however he took a laywer to fight against these accusations and managed to get his account back.. altough it was prob more then a year later.. and with an -200bill in his wallet www.garia.net
Gigi Kent Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:20:00 - [805] Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? This is pretty lol. -------------------------- Sig do what now?
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:21:00 - [806] Edited by: Valan on 11/12/2008 16:21:12 Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? Well considering they were probably bought with ill gotten gains what can you do? You can't give them back and they don't reseed them. They disappear same as those on inactive accounts and other banned players. Makes me giggle that all the whiners wanted them gone out of the game and said it wasn't fair. Now they're gone everyone is hoping they'll get a reseed. Hypocrites lol My personal view is to do a char search of really active accounts of more than one year old and less than 3 years old and randomly seed them. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Ima Near'Jita Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:25:00 - [807] Originally by: Mr Manufacture well, Morsus Mihi sure were rich for an alliance with such AWFUL space weren't they... lets think about that a bit... how did they fund 8 titans from a region with 1 high end moon and no decent mining? answers on a postcard Tribute is possibly one of the top 3 regions in the game, mining is very good there, and as the recent "siege" has shown pretty damn safe, taxi for Mr Manufature please back to Jita...
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:27:00 - [808] How do you undo 4 years of unlimited wealth of that proportion? How many capitals could you fleet a month? The unbalance is beyond anything conceivable. And... I think it's just a slap in the face when CCP Wrangler says... "made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others." WTF is that? An unfair advantage? Sure, in the least possible terms you can put it! So tell me this... how do you intended to counter that "unfair advantage" to all those they gained an advantage from? Simply banning them, removing their assets, and killing the POS does NOTHING to balance the damage done. Give back to your players. I propose this: For every player, they get 2 free months of game play for every year they've been playing. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
thelung187 Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:28:00 - [809] Originally by: Gigi Kent Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? This is pretty lol. Why?
killerco Gallente Dutch T2 Production	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:31:00 - [810] Names please ccp Names!!!!!

Grarr Dexx Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:32:00 - [811] Originally by: thelung187 Originally by: Gigi Kent Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? This is pretty lol. Why? Supply decreasing due to shutting down the offenders, demand increasing as people involved with the offenders have to turn to the market, more supply decreasing due to dead BPO's... Buy your T2 while it's cheap. -----
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:32:00 - [812] Originally by: killerco Names please ccp Names!!!!! EVOKE/MOSTLY HARMLESS
Gods Coldblood Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:34:00 - [813] 1st rule of POS mining club is " you do not talk about POS mining club !" 2nd rule of POS mining club is " you do not talk about POS mining club !" 3rd rule of POS mining club is " If its your first night at POS mining club, you have to exploit.. " ___________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Gladiator
Gigi Kent Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:35:00 - [814] Originally by: thelung187 Originally by: Gigi Kent Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? This is pretty lol. Why? Not you/your post, what it contains. I just find it all, the whole thing, pretty funny. If you don't, you really take a computer game far too seriously. That said, -------------------------- Sig do what now?
Am Li Caldari Dominion Gaming	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:36:00 - [815] this seems unreasonable to me. I dont think people should be banned for running their business in the most profitable manner possible. If CCP is really a lot of a... hats then I truly hope their market falls out for them and can they prove the corporations and specifically the individuals waking up to banned accounts where actually exploiting beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, probably not. This makes me sick. DOMINION GAMING, LAID BACK GAMING CLAN Recruitment Thread Homepage
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:37:00 - [816] Thanks for the update CCP.
b0nton	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:38:00 - [817] Originally by: Am Li this seems unreasonable to me. I dont think people should be banned for running their business in the most profitable manner possible. If CCP is really a lot of a... hats then I truly hope their market falls out for them and can they prove the corporations and specifically the individuals waking up to banned accounts where actually exploiting beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, probably not. This makes me sick. No, you're wrong. And you're sick because you're delusional. If you think pulling free moon minerals out of your ass isn't worth a permanent ban you're a big fat stupidhead.
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:38:00 - [818] Originally by: Neddy Fox As I've tried to explain to GM's a few times, where bugreports where discarded, CCP should finally reshape the GM department, and let them contact DEVS if a problem is reported. It's rediculous that exploits need to be reported somewhere, bugs (which can be exploited) must be done somewhere else, and if you expirience problems you have to use an ingame tool. In the MMO I was GM of, there was ONE system to report EVERYTHING, and GM's delegated them to the proper devisions. That way a report didn't end up at the wrong department , and wouldn't be discarded like many things are discarded in EVE. Why bother doing petition, CCP has had a macro/farmer problem fo years now and people petition daily, yet CCP still allows them.run macros and farm. CCP whole method of in game communication is broken and always has been. Petition rarely get answered unless its a easy fix item or known problem, and bug reports (just like other petitions) are total joke. On subject, it wishful thinking CCP will say who was banned, so get over it, and continue play the game.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:39:00 - [819] Originally by: Am Li this seems unreasonable to me. I dont think people should be banned for running their business in the most profitable manner possible. Hmm yes let me list the reasons why exploiting is a legitimate business strategy: 1. Oh wait, I just remembered, there aren't any.
Major Deviant	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:39:00 - [820] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX NAME AND SHAME: Alliance involed: Evoke (former D2, G) Mostly Harmless (former D2, TRUST, Xetic) The cult of Emilio? So Innominate Nightmare was spot on after all.

Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:40:00 - [821] Originally by: Ima Near'Jita Tribute is possibly one of the top 3 regions in the game, mining is very good there, and as the recent "siege" has shown pretty damn safe, taxi for Mr Manufature please back to Jita... ahahahahahahaahh AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahah oh that was good yeah tribute is definately top 3 region in the game thanks for that all that prom and dysp, and all that crokite, how could I be so blind.... hahahha
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:41:00 - [822] Originally by: Major Deviant Originally by: XxHey BabyxX NAME AND SHAME: Alliance involed: Evoke (former D2, G) Mostly Harmless (former D2, TRUST, Xetic) The cult of Emilio? So Innominate Nightmare was spot on after all. well I bet 100 million isk that one of these if not both are involved, alonge with (the old) kraftwerk CE lets say every former G, TRUST Corp
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:42:00 - [823] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX Originally by: killerco Names please ccp Names!!!!! EVOKE/MOSTLY HARMLESS Band of Brothers/EXE
thelung187 Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:44:00 - [824] Originally by: Gigi Kent Originally by: thelung187 Originally by: Gigi Kent Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? This is pretty lol. Why? Not you/your post, what it contains. I just find it all, the whole thing, pretty funny. If you don't, you really take a computer game far too seriously. That said, Oh don't get me wrong, I think this entire thing is hilarious It reminds me of the whole "ship plutonium from Venal down to Curse" thing, only much more blatant (and by the sounds, long-lasting). I know that only a player-based name-and-shame will occur, but thus far seeing/hearing people's completely epic level of whining has been nothing short of awesome. I was more just curious how far reaching into T2 production this whole thing is, and additionally if T2 would spike due to bpos being still in play or re-distributed. Personally, I think a spike in T2 would be great
Haunting	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:45:00 - [825] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Words and stuff I too, agree that the situation in Zimbabwe must change! Let's show our love and support for Zimbabwe!!
Zaiyo Modi	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:45:00 - [826] Damnit, i have to read through 28 pages before making an original post about this in here.
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:46:00 - [827] Originally by: teji Originally by: XxHey BabyxX Originally by: killerco Names please ccp Names!!!!! EVOKE/MOSTLY HARMLESS Band of Brothers/EXE well you will know soon though bob and exe are to stupid to do something like this
Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:48:00 - [828] 4 years??? CCP reaches new levels of fail every day. ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Caldari's Revenge	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:50:00 - [829] I hope you, CCP, give us more information about the extent of this exploit
Kiotsu Adler	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:50:00 - [830] <Conspiracy Theory Mode> CCP knew it all from long time ago, this is why they introduced alchemy. If not T2 market would skyrocket and that's bad stuff for vets pewpew elites flying shiny t2 ships. </Conspiracy Theory Mode> Well, if they want the market to rebalance, alchemy needs to be more efficient, not like the crap right now. Otherwise T2 will skyrocket and that's not good for playerbase, a lot of people would quit for not being able to use shiny ships Would be good for T1 pewpew and would even things between noobs/casual/poor people though making T1 more usual. Interesting times anyway.

XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:51:00 - [831] Former G/Evoke corp Asgards schiffwerften is one of the Corps involved at this
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:51:00 - [832] Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years??? CCP reaches new levels of fail every day. Yea because that random number wasnt pulled out of some random alt's ass
Black Adder	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:51:00 - [833] When is my compensation check comming? A few trillion isk should work for each year an account was active during the exploit (for each charactor and every account).
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:52:00 - [834] Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years??? CCP reaches new levels of fail every day. Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks.
Leakim jones Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:52:00 - [835] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX Former G/Evoke corp Asgards schiffwerften is one of the Corps involved at this How do you know this? And also everyone sign the petition!!!! SIGN THE PETITION
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:53:00 - [836] Originally by: Garia666 Can someone explain to me why these guys where banned. Did they know they did something wrong? If they didn't they should be banned anyway for idiocy. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Mr John22ta Underworld Protection Agency	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:55:00 - [837] Will be interesting to see who was involved, and what impact this will have on the game. It really sucks that people are prepared to cheat/exploit to get a head in a game of INTERNET SPACESHIPS. I appreciate CCP's honesty with regards to this, less than 24 hours and they have confirmed the exploit, and provided details of numbers involved, and the actions taken. A refreshing change. However, I think that any alliance/corps/individuals that are connected to this directly, wether recieving ISK, Minerals or assets, should be banned. Remove the assest, and name and shame the corps'/allainces, make a public example of them If a public example is made, maybe people will think twice before trying this kind of **** in future. The damage done is massive, and we will ALL pay for it.
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:57:00 - [838] Originally by: Gnulpie Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks. There is no validated information about the time period involved. I am strongly assuming that CCP is still in the process of accumulating and analyzing data to determine this. Well I strongly hope they have to and not had done so before. Speculating on individual alliances or corporations is pointless at the moment. Either the people doing so provide tangible proof or shud up. The same holds true for people posting speculations without showing proper Tags.
Carnal Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:57:00 - [839] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years??? CCP reaches new levels of fail every day. Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks. So how would you know?
Achar Losa	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:59:00 - [840] Originally by: CCP Wrangler The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. And of course as we saw it soooooo many times before, the only way to get away with this is lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Go on start closing all the topics opened about this being known for 4 years. Oh wait you shouldnt discuss exploits cause we really dont want others using it, its OUR little secret for our ingame chars, aaaaall these dev and gm guys can get a little for their corps and alliances, right t20?

Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.11 16:59:00 - [841] Originally by: Haunting Originally by: CCP Wrangler Words and stuff I too, agree that the situation in Zimbabwe must change! Let's show our love and support for Zimbabwe!! There is no senile despot here. This is not the downtrodden, virtually destroyed African country that you are looking for. Move along. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Dede Dumdedum Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:00:00 - [842] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX Originally by: teji Originally by: XxHey BabyxX Originally by: killerco Names please ccp Names!!!!! EVOKE/MOSTLY HARMLESS Band of Brothers/EXE well you will know soon though bob and exe are to stupid to do something like this ha it's probly been a very busy 5 days for their pos managers.. relax people. some symbolic towers were removed, a few sacrificial corps are ruined, some expendable alts are banned.. nobody of any importance was harmed.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:00:00 - [843] Originally by: Carnal Knowledge Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years??? CCP reaches new levels of fail every day. Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks. So how would you know? No one does for sure, but there is a little saying. Innocent until proven guilty. God forbid we all deal with this situation with reason instead of feeding the mob...
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:04:00 - [844] Originally by: Rawthorm Originally by: Carnal Knowledge Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years??? CCP reaches new levels of fail every day. Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks. So how would you know? No one does for sure, but there is a little saying. Innocent until proven guilty. God forbid we all deal with this situation with reason instead of feeding the mob... Ah, but we're talking about an exploited bug here. The real question is, how long has it been in existence? Since the POS management screen was given a mini-makeover? Since the very introduction of POS's? Who knows...the sCrapheap poster may or may not be trolling, but tbh I could actually see it being a truthful statement without stretching my sense of incredulity.
Alphrya Inter-Region Trade And Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:06:00 - [845] One. * Buying your Junk! EVEmail me or post in my thread! *
Garok Nor Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:07:00 - [846] 4 years??????? You let this go on for 4 YEARS... Amazing... simply astounding... why do I feel cheated? ------------------------------------------------- Items posted by me are in no way a reflection of the policies and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance. {though they maybe really ought to be}
Arric Rohr Gallente Intergalactic Science LLC	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:07:00 - [847] Mistakes were made. A bunch of things happened as a result. Luckily, it's a game. Changes will occur. Afterwards, it will still be a game. Who really gets hurt? No one, because it's a game. If you don't like it, quit. Can I have your stuff? Move on, nothing to see here. AR Where do I get one of those cool signatures?
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:08:00 - [848] Originally by: Carnal Knowledge Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Rramar Claime 4 years??? CCP reaches new levels of fail every day. Nope, sorry not 4 years. Just a couple of weeks. So how would you know? So how would you know it is 4 years? Because just some dude said so? Well, now I say different. Whom to believe now? My numbers indicate a couple of weeks. And they are based all on the trade in Jita. Easy to see that something fishy is going on there for the couple of last weeks. There is NO indication at all that this is going on for years. Of course there can be hidden parameters... But at least my claim is backup by numbers. The claim of the other guy is backed up by nothing. In the end we have to wait for CCP and their numbers. And then it is up to you if you believe them or not. But if you do not believe them, then posting here is quite pointless, right?
Karla Kay	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:09:00 - [849] Edited by: Karla Kay on 11/12/2008 17:09:17 At the end of the day "*YOU*" will pay your subscriptions and CCP will keep being CCP so all this OMG stuff is useless. Thank GOD for jumpgate coming out soon.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:11:00 - [850] Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: Rawthorm No one does for sure, but there is a little saying. Innocent until proven guilty. God forbid we all deal with this situation with reason instead of feeding the mob... Ah, but we're talking about an exploited bug here. The real question is, how long has it been in existence? Since the POS management screen was given a mini-makeover? Since the very introduction of POS's? Who knows...the sCrapheap poster may or may not be trolling, but tbh I could actually see it being a truthful statement without stretching my sense of incredulity. Thats just it we don't know. This is why this needs a steady and in depth investigation, which we won't get from the rabble brigade. In either case, any answers we get are simply a matter of feeding our curiosity now. The damage is done, so one could ask, what does it matter?

Leopold Caine Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:11:00 - [851] "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors" So it could've been up to 5 days max, perhaps more. I'm not a trader, but who confirmed the date when the exploit started?
Alphrya Inter-Region Trade And Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:11:00 - [852] Kugu <3 LEAKED * Buying your Junk! EVEmail me or post in my thread! *
Mui Mui Independent Pilots	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:13:00 - [853] You know what - the majority of high-sec and low-sec dwellers do NOT care. Null-sec alliances being stung? Boo-hoo! I got cheaper T2 mods and that is a good thing. Am more upset that T2 goods may actually rise in price. As well as T1 goods. I hope large swathes of null-sec suddenly become vacant as POS structures disappear and various alliance high commands all get hit by the ban-stick. Did CCP screw up? Yup - but removing ghost training hurt more. Not this. Now hit your address books and see who gets the ban-stick.
Bud Johnson Tacos Revolution CODE RED ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:15:00 - [854] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Unlike you, CCP fanboy, who think everythign CCP says and does is holy, there are a few people with critical sense. If critical sense involves believing what someone who was banned for exploiting says without a shred of proof beyond "LOL ITS TRU GAIS!!!!!" ill pass, thanks. The fact that you leaped strait to "CCP fanboy, who think everything CCP says and does is holy" is screaming amateur troll at me, but i dont have anything better to do so ill bite. Do you actually believe that this has gone on for 4 years without the community at large finding out? This is bull** on the level of Bush/ADL did 9/11 "truth movement" *gotry. The number of people who would have had to keep their mouths shut for this to work is incredible. On the other hand people filled to the brim with critical sense (such as yourself) are making me a fortune on the mineral market. just wanted to thank you for that.
Bartfast BANK of HUZZAH FEDERATION HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:17:00 - [855] the exploit was reported 4/5 days ago ... to long but not going to make a huge diffrence there have been claims that it has run for some time before it was discovered if this is true then the impact is huge those player that have been rewarded for cheating should be knocked back into the dark ages and out of game where possible. Any assets that have been bought or gained through the use of these isks should be reomved and any tatical or material advantage set right titans t2 bpos bought ..just a thought Stations, systems, assets etc that have been taken by force funded by isks that where from an exploit should be reset or returned if this cant be done all assets should be removed and lets have a free for all claiming what we can RE draw the political map support those players that that support the community and try to play by the rules
Jalif Scorpion's Sting Blades of Serenity	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:17:00 - [856] \o/ t2 market is going to be expensive again piracy because more fun this is how eve should be... for those pos exploiters.... good that you got banned.... A game should be played fair & what you guys did is unfair against other players. To CCP, time to fix your **** instead bringing content.
Rethyl Valkyries of Night	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:19:00 - [857] In before page 30 :) Looking forward to more explanation of this from CCP -- hopefully the damage has been limited to a few weeks or months. For those claiming years, evidence plz?
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:19:00 - [858] Edited by: Rawthorm on 11/12/2008 17:19:33 Originally by: Bartfast the exploit was reported 4/5 days ago ... to long but not going to make a huge diffrence there have been claims that it has run for some time before it was discovered if this is true then the impact is huge those player that have been rewarded for cheating should be knocked back into the dark ages and out of game where possible. Any assets that have been bought or gained through the use of these isks should be reomved and any tatical or material advantage set right titans t2 bpos bought ..just a thought Stations, systems, assets etc that have been taken by force funded by isks that where from an exploit should be reset or returned if this cant be done all assets should be removed and lets have a free for all claiming what we can RE draw the political map support those players that that support the community and try to play by the rules To be honest, exploiters by their nature are greedy bastards. You'll probably find they used most of the ISK to fund their own habits and their alliances saw little benifit. (Beyond perhaps their own little circle of close friends)
Liu	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:19:00 - [859] asuming the guy at SCH were telling the truth, if they petitioned it 4 years ago, and the answer was "it's not a bug", why would they have to be banned? Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
VCBee 516	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:21:00 - [860] Check out corps in Ev0ke today for lulz.

wanting	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:22:00 - [861] What took so long
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:22:00 - [862] Originally by: Rethyl Looking forward to more explanation of this from CCP -- hopefully the damage has been limited to a few weeks or months. For those claiming years, evidence plz? Unless there were accidental changes made to the moon mining code recently that allowed this to happen, it's not unreasonable to assume it dates back to the very inception of moon mining. But as of yet I don't believe there's any solid data on how old this exploit is. I believe it's one of the things that the transparency thread at the Assembly Hall wants CCP to reveal.
Mik Starret	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:23:00 - [863] It's funny, I've thought EvE should be restarted, or at least a new server opened, for years. The game has changed so much, and the early players have advantages that can never be replicated because of shifts in the rules. Now, although I'm not sure I believe an exploit like this could be kept a secret for so long, it's possible that a bug has been causing massive in-game advantage for a long time. The landscape would be incredibly skewed, beyond fixing. Maybe this is the time to start over. Think about how fun it would be if everyone was in their velator or ibis on day 1, heading out to seek adventure on the same terms as everyone else. Oh well, nice dream, won't happen.
Rethyl Valkyries of Night	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:25:00 - [864] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Rethyl Looking forward to more explanation of this from CCP -- hopefully the damage has been limited to a few weeks or months. For those claiming years, evidence plz? Unless there were accidental changes made to the moon mining code recently that allowed this to happen, it's not unreasonable to assume it dates back to the very inception of moon mining. But as of yet I don't believe there's any solid data on how old this exploit is. I believe it's one of the things that the transparency thread at the Assembly Hall wants CCP to reveal. I'm certainly willing to believe this bug has existed for years, but I'm not convinced yet that people have been exploiting it on a wide scale for years.
Havlentia Castigatrix Gallente The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:25:00 - [865] Originally by: Mui Mui You know what - the majority of high-sec and low-sec dwellers do NOT care. Null-sec alliances being stung? Boo-hoo! I got cheaper T2 mods and that is a good thing. Am more upset that T2 goods may actually rise in price. Not to mention that there are some Dyspro moons up for grabs at the moment. Should be an interesting couple of days. Of course, the numbers reported by CCP of the actual exploit being used are fairly low...hopefully they've scrambled to close the exploit hole (this wasn't mentioned in the post) rather than relying on the petition system. Originally by: Mui Mui As well as T1 goods. You don't use composites in T1. The price of T1 will fall as competition heats up there when the margins on T2 get squeezed. I think what's more depressing is that the poor guy that is the research and statistics 'team' suddenly found himself actually having to do forensic research on the databases to discover the extent of the problem. I think it's also slightly depressing that nobody at CCP has thought to take a leaf from the SEC and banking systems to try and track down the large scale and endemic isk-selling on Eve back to it's extremely obvious source. 'Real world economy'? Time to start throwing in some of the checks that the banking systems use. Oh, and employ someone that can actually query the database on the live server to throw up some red flags. Time to start regulating. Anyway, there are screenshots of the POS configuration used on t'internets. Start petitioning the configuration if you see it used. ----- This space left intentionally blank
Rethyl Valkyries of Night	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:27:00 - [866] Originally by: Liu asuming the guy at SCH were telling the truth, if they petitioned it 4 years ago, and the answer was "it's not a bug", why would they have to be banned? If you find a wallet on the street and yell out "Hey, did someone lose a wallet?", and noone responds, and you then go and use their credit cards for 4 years before getting caught, why should the police bust you?
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Strength in Numbers.	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:28:00 - [867] Who was the other alliance?
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:30:00 - [868] Originally by: thelung187 Interesting discussion going on in the trade channels atm (/me waves to "Minerals and Manufacturing"). Rumors are a dangerous thing of course, and are entirely speculative, but the rumor is that "some" T2 BPOs were purchased with the liquid capital from the reaction exploit, and are now effectively dead due to them being on permabanned accounts. Can anyone from CCP speak on this, as to whether any of it is true? And if it IS true, will these BPOs be re-seeded, or are they permanently gone? Hopefully if they were in those corps/accounts they are gone forever. It will mean more opportunities for inventors and enable them to make more of a profit. Over time that's I think how CCP plans to get rid of the t2 BPOs, as people quit and the stuff goes inactive (they didn't plan to ban them all). This is a better initial report than we got in the t20 incident so maybe they've learned a little. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:31:00 - [869] Originally by: Leopold Caine "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors" So it could've been up to 5 days max, perhaps more. I'm not a trader, but who confirmed the date when the exploit started? Leo just read around a bit :) fortunately eve is bigger than eve-o forums :) ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:34:00 - [870] Well, I'm angry. I ran 11 pos's for 2 years and never saw this exploit happen. Margins for our products (which included Ferrogel) were so minimal we put it down to Alliance Soverignty issues. It seemed like since Alliances had to put down towers for Soverignty anyway, Moon Mining income was simply something that came along with it. As a software developer myself, I can see how this could happen. Any initial bug report when POS's were first introduced would be shrugged off as people not knowing what they were doing. For example, in the first days reactors needed to be onlined and linked in specific order. Even after reading all the materials it was a bit of an Art to get things set up properly. So some people made mistakes which triggered this exploit, while others did not. Here's a tip from 28yrs of programming experience: Do Not Let Developers Test Their Own Code! If I program a process and test it, I'm going to test it the 'Right' way. To find bugs you have to have complete idiots try the process with minimal instruction. Only they will do things 'Wrong' and reveal bugs. Now as for Punishment, let me relay a RL story (yeah, stuff it - I don't care for your 'Eve is not RL' bull.) Iran convicted a man of abusing and murdering many children a few years ago. The evidence was overwhelming and there was no question of his guilt. The Punishment was to have this man slowly winched up by a crane in the town square with a noose around his neck. The mother of one of the victims put the noose on. The brother of one of the victims ran forward during that and stabbed the man - and the authorities just shoo'd him away and went on with the execution. The man was hoisted for a slow strangulation death, and then was purposefully left there to hang for 3 days so that his body could not be buried properly, which meant he went to Hell in Islam. This type of Punishment for the exploiters is what I'm suggesting happens to their Eve empires. Say what you want about Iran, but they know how to create a Deterrent.

Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:34:00 - [871] Edited by: Shintai on 11/12/2008 17:35:48 4 years is an emo rumour. Anyway, T2 materials like ferrogel and fermonics seems to go back to summer prices. Result is basicly just that HACs will be back to some 90-100mil area. Looking on the market I would say this have been used as an exploit for 3-6 months. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Altemi Calabre	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:35:00 - [872] Originally by: Rethyl I'm certainly willing to believe this bug has existed for years, but I'm not convinced yet that people have been exploiting it on a wide scale for years. Alright, but the issue then becomes the definition of wide scale doesn't it Rethyl? A 4 year span for the right people to be abusing this type of 'free money' model has a massive scale of impact over time in it's disruption of economic variables, alliance warfare feasibility, and so on. Not solely through giving that side a competitive advantage. Many rules of the universe are based upon inherent opportunity costs of choice for the player base. If this has been throwing off valuations of these opportunity costs by artificially increasing availability of key elements, that could have affected considerations on all sorts of mechanics over the past 3 years (assuming it took a year for the effects to really trickle out). I agree that to assume thousands of knowing guilty parties may be a leap (or maybe not if it's 1 guy with five isk paid for accounts jacking up the multiplier) but I think it's just as much of a mistake not to recognize that IF the time scale is correct, this invalidates or questions big chunks of economic components and information used to make game shaping decisions by CCP. Either way, their actions from here on are going to be... Interesting. ~ Why is it those with the greatest responsibility to make good decisions so often seem the least capable or inclined?
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:35:00 - [873] Originally by: Rramar Claime Originally by: Leopold Caine "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors" So it could've been up to 5 days max, perhaps more. I'm not a trader, but who confirmed the date when the exploit started? Leo just read around a bit :) fortunately eve is bigger than eve-o forums :) It didn't come from CCP, just some guy who got banned, so it's far from a confirmation. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council.	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:35:00 - [874] Originally by: Ephemeron TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like? because in two weeks i will be flying the deimos, and that would really suck Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Havlentia Castigatrix Gallente The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:36:00 - [875] Originally by: CCP Wrangler The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. What measures? I speak as someone who has been told that the logs 'show nothing' when I've suffered from bugs and situations in game; I assume that you had a 'starbase exploit' log that showed the issue in full technicolor? Sorry for the snarky tone...I blame the environment. Kudos for bolting the door on the empty barn, though. ----- This space left intentionally blank
dibblebill Mercenaries International Alliance Overtime Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:38:00 - [876] Thank god I got my Manticore and T2 fittings earlier this week. Thank you, CCP, for fixing this, even if what some say is true and things have been going on for awhile. Its always nice to know some games try to fix their problems. But a list of offenders or a better analysis of impending effects would be very nice. ---Signature--- I have turned my back upon the State and their sins. If you enroach upon my freedom, prepare to fight for your life.
Dr Fujikara	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:39:00 - [877] Another massive, glaring failure by CCP. Who here is surprised?
War Kitten	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:40:00 - [878] Originally by: peoples Stuff Proof or stfu! Can I has everyones stuffs?
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:41:00 - [879] Originally by: Princess Jodi This type of Punishment for the exploiters is what I'm suggesting happens to their Eve empires. That's one macabre sense of humour!
Kal'Kalagan Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:42:00 - [880] Edited by: Kal''Kalagan on 11/12/2008 17:42:33 edited..

Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:43:00 - [881] Originally by: MyOwnSling It didn't come from CCP, just some guy who got banned, so it's far from a confirmation. meh lol?? :D oh well CCP didnt admit it so its not true? CCP never lies. CCP wants world peace and all that is good, not your money and subscription fee. But seriously, you really dont think CCP would ever admit this was going on for 4 years if it was true, do you? :D I think i dont have to bring examples from CCP's past :) ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:45:00 - [882] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Note this line which was added to the op.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:46:00 - [883] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Originally by: Ephemeron TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like? because in two weeks i will be flying the deimos, and that would really suck Deimos is still the most disadvantaged HAC, so at least price changes aren't going to be such a big deal for you thanks to lower demand (possibly.) Personally I'm wondering if I should just buy my Cerb and Eagle now instead of waiting another 19 days until I get Caldari Cruiser 5. I remember a time when both of those ships were just over 100 mil but right now they're still sitting pretty at 65-75.
Bodhisattvas Crepitus Ventris	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:47:00 - [884] Originally by: War Kitten Originally by: peoples Stuff Proof or stfu! Can I has everyones stuffs? Stuffs all gotted emo tear damage!! worthless now! Stuffs is all broked and too expensive to make more stuffs!! Unbroked stuffs is gonna be worth the more nows!!!
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:47:00 - [885] So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB.
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:51:00 - [886] Originally by: Mr Manufacture well, Morsus Mihi sure were rich for an alliance with such AWFUL space weren't they... lets think about that a bit... how did they fund 8 titans from a region with 1 high end moon and no decent mining? answers on a postcard Yes..let's think about it a bit. In comparison to many other regions in the game, Tribute is one of the worst regions in the game in terms of resources. However, it is still 0.0 space. While high-end moon minerals are not bountiful, we do have lots of mid-range...and money can be made from that as well. We have a fair amount of crockite and mercoxit. Zyd has been the best selling high-end mineral, especially during morphite's low points. By all accounts, we're carebears who can't fight, so we must be doing something with all our time, right? After all, we have had a mothership caught in a belt, haven't we? You are also aware that there's been a Gurista's 10/10 complex in Tribute, as well..and at least 8/10 fairly close by until the static ones were dropped from the game. Tribute's close proximity to Jita is incredibly useful for industrial applications. Another thing we do well because we can't fight (obviously). Up until about 4 months ago, RAWR has pretty much been completely unmolested at home and had been so for most of two years dating back to the short war with TCF. Since that conflict, we've been absolutely maniacal about fortifying Tribute. Along with that fortification has come pos infrastructure and avid supercap building. Supercaps have been sold for profit and converted into a number of things, including titans. Lets also consider, for instance...that just about every corp in RAWR is an old corp or is a merger of old corps. This means lots of T2 income...lots of fairly rich people even before moon-mining came to be...even before RAWR came to be. Our recruiting strategy has been to accept very few corps and all of them have to be absolutely self-sufficient. RAWR leadership is made up of many older professionals who have basically brought their out-of-game expertise into the game and helped build a very strong alliance that sets goals and meets those goals. In short, we're about as stable as they come. Pretty much everything we do go right back into building a stronger RAWR, not lining anyone's pockets. My own corp isn't even one of the richest ones in RAWR or EVE, but we can meet our vast alliance requirements, corp requirements and still build titans to use or sell. Make no mistake...its a big job that takes a lot of effort. It also have very little to do with moon-mining. So..you can look at the forgoing and draw your own reasonable conclusions...or you can grind your little axe and smear us with zero proof. The choice is yours. For my part, if anyone in RAWR is complicit in ANY of this, I'll be first in line to condemn them for being cheaters. I'm certain that's the prevalent feeling among my fellow RAWR pilots. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Shadoo North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:51:00 - [887] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. I say we form a lynch mob to go after BoB anyway. You know, just because!
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Strength in Numbers.	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:51:00 - [888] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. What is there to lynch?
Mariokoli Mianana Gallente Cloak and Daggers Ocularis Inferno	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:52:00 - [889] Originally by: Madius Originally by: Mara Kell 5 days is a alot of time to bring down abusive POSes isnt it? I hope that no one escaped the investigations that way. If CCP has a halfway decent logging/tracking system (and they better) it won't matter if POSes get offlined. Christ, people rag on Blizzard, but they can pull up things you said months ago in chat or trace money/item transfers across dozens of accounts and characters, you'd hope CCP would be at least be able to see who was benefiting from the resources beyond the accounts directly tied to the exploiting. Check out this Bruce Schneier article regarding audits. It is a great article about something that applies in this very scenario. When something makes it through QA and ends up released and exploitable, the thing that will help to ensure that people are playing fair and report, rather than use, possible exploits is to have a good auditing system. Using the segments from the Schneier article, I'd have to say that CCP would fall in the middle category. They were able to reverse and use audits to figure out who had been doing what and where, but they didn't have valuable warning flag audits for this sort of thing. I think that the "Research & Statistics" group should not only be focusing on understanding micro/macro-economics through EVE, but also in developing prophylactic audit warnings, noting when something goes out of band and warrants investigation without relying almost solely on whistle-blowers filing petitions.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:55:00 - [890] Originally by: Shadoo Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. I say we form a lynch mob to go after BoB anyway. You know, just because! We've been waiting since you left. And your little roaming excursions to Delve to harass carebears don't count.

Twoside Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:55:00 - [891] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. it's a fact this bug has been petitioned multiple times in the past. This, and CCPs history of using the ban and exploit stick per agenda, leads a lot to think that this bug was willingly put aside to serve ones agenda. Some apparently cashed in enough now, pulled down their own POSs and petitioned. I wonder whose agenda this serves best ^^ (but yeah, tinfoil time4sure)
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:55:00 - [892] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Originally by: Ephemeron TQ reset would make the game pretty interesting, everything would be new again, no super cap fleets, no POS in every 0.0 system, no jump bridges, no titans, no jump freighters. Lots of t1 ships. Fair play for all. What's not to like? because in two weeks i will be flying the deimos, and that would really suck umm, buy one now?
Intrepid Reporter	Posted - 2008.12.11 17:56:00 - [893] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. Unfortunately we can't, as this time CCP already did the correct action by banning the cheaters responsible. I know, sometimes it is fun to rabble rouse and all, but it is kinda hard with the rather tight and strict moderation that goes on around here. Luckily there's an organization out there willing to discuss important political events in EVE without filtering out the average player's opinions.
Hczer	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:01:00 - [894] The economic crisis is now in-game
Calatrava	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:03:00 - [895] Some one has buy 200 zealots on the forge. Coincidence?
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:04:00 - [896] Originally by: Intrepid Reporter Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. Unfortunately we can't, as this time CCP already did the correct action by banning the cheaters responsible. I know, sometimes it is fun to rabble rouse and all, but it is kinda hard with the rather tight and strict moderation that goes on around here. T20 was reprimanded, too. You still wont let BoB live that one down. At least show some consistency.
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Strength in Numbers.	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:05:00 - [897] Who was the second alliance involved?
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:07:00 - [898] Originally by: Rramar Claime meh lol?? :D oh well CCP didnt admit it so its not true? Hardly, but you completely missed the point. How is that one guy a credible source? We have no reason to believe him. But in the end, you may be right about CCP, in which case we may never know the full truth. I am reserving judgement until they finish their investigation, but atm it doesn't look like we are getting much :/ ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:08:00 - [899] Originally by: Orree snip Orree, take it from me - it doesn't matter what you say. To some, you are guilty, to others, you are innocent, nothing you say will change that. To the rest of us, you're innocent until proven guilty / banned. May as well save your breath mate, CCP are the only people that can clear / condemn you... and even then, the first paragraph still holds true ;) Originally by: Shadoo Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. I say we form a lynch mob to go after BoB anyway. You know, just because! +1!!! Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
OK USA	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:09:00 - [900] So these guys **** up the market and take advantage of a huge exploit and CCP won't name them?

Intrepid Reporter	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:09:00 - [901] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Intrepid Reporter Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. Unfortunately we can't, as this time CCP already did the correct action by banning the cheaters responsible. I know, sometimes it is fun to rabble rouse and all, but it is kinda hard with the rather tight and strict moderation that goes on around here. T20 was reprimanded, too. You still wont let BoB live that one down. At least show some consistency. Large difference between "not allowed to play the game" and "told was a bad boy"
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:11:00 - [902] Originally by: Hczer The economic crisis is now in-game art imitates life? oh, and BURN THEM! BURN THE WITCH! BUUUURRRN HERRRR! /thanks for the rundown ccp. i think i can speak on behalf of the mob when i say you not telling us specific names makes the torches burn a little dimmer ... but if you could it would surely raise the volume of our RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE ---------- Seasons Greetings and have a Happy Alvis Time
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:11:00 - [903] Originally by: Intrepid Reporter Large difference between "not allowed to play the game" and "told was a bad boy" I must have missed the part where CCP said they let him have another player account with GM powers.
Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:13:00 - [904] Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Rramar Claime meh lol?? :D oh well CCP didnt admit it so its not true? Hardly, but you completely missed the point. How is that one guy a credible source? We have no reason to believe him. But in the end, you may be right about CCP, in which case we may never know the full truth. I am reserving judgement until they finish their investigation, but atm it doesn't look like we are getting much :/ That is true and agreed :) ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
F90OEX F9X	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:15:00 - [905] Originally by: Caldari's Revenge I hope you, CCP, give us more information about the extent of this exploit LOL Your joking right
Mamer	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:17:00 - [906] I for one would be all for a delay in any patch so they can focus on the depth and magnitude of this exploit. Those responsible need to pay. Track isk transfers, adjust people's wallets that benefited from this incident, track credit card numbers/names to alts, and ban the whole lot of them. Mamerjamer
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:20:00 - [907] CCP should simply use the research methods used to track down RMT ISK salves and remove any and all ISK gained directly through the use of the exploit, banning any extensive benefactors even outside the direct exploitation rings. If whole alliances and powerblocks would fall apart from this, so be it. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Detorie Eve Defence Force Resurgency	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:21:00 - [908] Nothing to add, just feel my face should be on such an epic thread.
Mamer	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:24:00 - [909] Agreed. A strong message needs to be sent to people playing that there will be consequences for your actions. It will make people think twice before engaging in these acts in the future and report it. The more severe and extreme the consequences I am all for it. Time to take the nerf off the ban stick and start knocking some heads, and I'm sure the first few might be inside ccp's office.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:28:00 - [910] Originally by: Abrazzar CCP should simply use the research methods used to track down RMT ISK salves and remove any and all ISK gained directly through the use of the exploit, banning any extensive benefactors even outside the direct exploitation rings. If whole alliances and powerblocks would fall apart from this, so be it. So much the better, in fact.

Fighter26 Center for Deformed Hamsters	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:28:00 - [911] It's a great time to put up stations
DaiTengu Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:30:00 - [912] Edited by: DaiTengu on 11/12/2008 18:30:31 Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Intrepid Reporter Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. Unfortunately we can't, as this time CCP already did the correct action by banning the cheaters responsible. I know, sometimes it is fun to rabble rouse and all, but it is kinda hard with the rather tight and strict moderation that goes on around here. T20 was reprimanded, too. You still wont let BoB live that one down. At least show some consistency. Not being able to be in BoB is not a reprimand. The guy put in his resignation to CCP and it was rejected.
Spike Spiegle Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:31:00 - [913] Isn't CCP just as much to blame as anyone who used the exploit, if they knew about it for 4 years why didn't they act? Are you now trawling those "elusive" server logs that never exsist to find out if others have proffited from this in the past?
Dr Missy Aspire Academy Soldiers Of New Eve	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:31:00 - [914] A coincidence that t3 won't be linked to t2 components? /me reaches for the roll of tinfoil
Cuchulain Spartan	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:35:00 - [915] Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. Ok, the above quote from the CCP OP suggests that the petition was 5 days old on the 7th of December, which suggests the 2nd of December was the file date? Quote: Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. Ok, so this bug was made aware to CCP 9 days ok. The fact that it is a 9 day old bug would suggest a minimal market impact. How is it going to have a CONSIDERABLE AND FAR REACHING effects on the market in such a short period of time? It is only 9 days old according to CCP? There is no way it could go unnoticed for so long by CCP is there? Only answer that I can think of is that it has been going on for a long long time and left unchecked. Looking back at CCP Dev history and lack of honesty, this isnt to hard to believe. It's interesting how the funds generated from this exploit were used to fund null sec wars, the likes of which CCP have always dreamed about, and wars that might never have happened if this bug had been caught many years ago, hmmmm makes me wonder Its also interesting how Alchemy arrives around the same time as this exploit is being shut down. A bit of a coincidence me thinks. If it turns out to be 4 years old then my faith in CCP has been really shaken to the core. I really do hope this is an innocent oversight by CCP and not a repeat of history i.e.CCP developer Vincent "t20" P.
MultiP	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:37:00 - [916] Originally by: Cuchulain Spartan Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. Ok, the above quote from the CCP OP suggests that the petition was 5 days old on the 7th of December, which suggests the 2nd of December was the file date? Quote: Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. Ok, so this bug was made aware to CCP 9 days ok. The fact that it is a 9 day old bug would suggest a minimal market impact. How is it going to have a CONSIDERABLE AND FAR REACHING effects on the market in such a short period of time? It is only 9 days old according to CCP? There is no way it could go unnoticed for so long by CCP is there? Only answer that I can think of is that it has been going on for a long long time and left unchecked. Looking back at CCP Dev history and lack of honesty, this isnt to hard to believe. It's interesting how the funds generated from this exploit were used to fund null sec wars, the likes of which CCP have always dreamed about, and wars that might never have happened if this bug had been caught many years ago, hmmmm makes me wonder Its also interesting how Alchemy arrives around the same time as this exploit is being shut down. A bit of a coincidence me thinks. If it turns out to be 4 years old then my faith in CCP has been really shaken to the core. I really do hope this is an innocent oversight by CCP and not a repeat of history i.e.CCP developer Vincent "t20" P. The date of the petition has nothing to do with the date people started using the exploit.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:38:00 - [917] guys, guys Morsus Mihi find 135bn ISK a month to fuel over 400 POS, and they build 10 titans, cos they work really hard... its true... they mine all the veld in tribute and NPC there thats gives them the 2000 bn isk capfleet they have, and finds them all that ISK for POS fuelling its true, fluf told me so no exploiting in that alliance
Wesley Baird BURN EDEN Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:42:00 - [918] Originally by: Mr Manufacture guys, guys Morsus Mihi find 135bn ISK a month to fuel over 400 POS, and they build 10 titans, cos they work really hard... its true... they mine all the veld in tribute and NPC there thats gives them the 2000 bn isk capfleet they have, and finds them all that ISK for POS fuelling its true, fluf told me so no exploiting in that alliance Not my alt!! Seriously!
ferique	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:43:00 - [919] I'm afraid this rather late comeing fix of the problem has come far to late for the people that have now been banned, to be honest i think its disgusting how they have been treated, its a game dynamic ccp obviously didnt bother testing themselves, and shows obvious flaws in there QA system, rather than banning 70 paying customers, they should be fireing thhe staff involved in this over sight, after all 4 years is a long time for this to go on. Dont get me wrong i like this game but i think alot of problems and implamentation of new systems and code into the game is done slap dash, I think you should re think this knee jerk reaction of instant banning, as the blame firmly rest on your door ccp.
Thaydren Kung	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:44:00 - [920] After reading the initial disclosure from CCP Wrangler, I was a little confused about what the exploit was and how it effected me personally. In the end I have read pages and pages of the player base demanding everything from indepth investigations with full disclosure to public hangings to be held in ever sector of Eve. Personally everyone needs to slow down. What happened here sounds like a massive attempt to exploit and gain, in the end, a endless supply of free isk (whether in the form of ships, modules, minerals, or just isk really doesn't matter). How many people were involved, the length of the exploit in duration, and how the people involved benefitted really is of no consequence anymore. The only thing of consequence is what happens now. Personally I find bannings a little rediculous. Instead I suggest these three things as an alternative to bannings. First, publish the names and corporations (including alts) of those involved and place them as War Targets to everyone in Eve for say 6 months. Let's face it letting them go means they don't actually pay for anything, as there accounts where paid for with free isk anyways. Justice demands a public record. Second, strip the characters and corporations (including alts) of isk and assets including ships, POS, etc. Basically give the players and corp only enough for say a T1 fit cruiser. Should make being flagged to everyone in Eve entertaining for them. Lastly, strip all players involved (including alts) of say 25% of there SP. And remove all capital skills from their character skill sets, make them earn the isk for those books legitimately like everyone else. I think that this method is much more entertaining and the people of Eve can actually do something against those that exploit Eve. They can destroy them and there will to continue in the Universe. They can shun these individuals just like the executives of the real world. They didn't threaten anyone, they exploited something that was never fixed, whether the explit was known or not to those in charge. Let us be the sword of justice, not a ban that leaves us empty of any justice.

Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:45:00 - [921] Originally by: Cuchulain Spartan If it turns out to be 4 years old then my faith in CCP has been really shaken to the core. I really do hope this is an innocent oversight by CCP and not a repeat of history i.e.CCP developer Vincent "t20" P. I think everyone here doesn't have faith in CCP to do an outstanding job... not even a minimal job. But the fact remains are you going to leave or stay? The only way CCP will even consider taking their heads out of their arses if there is a mass drop in subscriptions. Until then, they'll get by with twists and lies to make them seem worthy of a game of this magnitude. I'm sure they are debating what to release and talking to a dozen consultants as to how to manage this travesty. In the end, you can quite possibly see ONLY the CSM finding out and never being able to reveal the details. Even quite possibly, giving them false details to protect CCP and their own "POS exploit" so to speak... meaning their Eve subscribers. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
croakroach Gallente DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:47:00 - [922] We demand name and shame post the corps names my 2 iskies in da basket
Captain Politics JotunHeim Hird X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:47:00 - [923] Edited by: Captain Politics on 11/12/2008 18:48:35 Originally by: croakroach We demand name and shame post the corps names my 2 iskies in da basket Look at scrapheap-challenge.com in the general forum. Post will be cleared if we post them here... And by the way T20 no longer works for CCP he quit about 3 months ago or so.
Cuchulain Spartan	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:48:00 - [924] Quote: The date of the petition has nothing to do with the date people started using the exploit. I agree entirley. The fact that the exploit shutdown is going to have such far reaching effects and impacts on the market according to CCP OP suggests that the exploit has been in existance for a long long time and not just reported on the 2nd December. The 2nd December is just a smokescreen in my eyes to hide the scale and duration of this exploit. Giving a date makes it look like CCP jumped in to save the day very promptly once the exploit report was filled. Any exploit like this running for such a lenght of time generating so much isk and trade could not have gone unnoticed unless allowed to by 1 or more members of CCP. Thats the point I was making on the dates, such an impact cant have happened in such a short space of time.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:49:00 - [925] Originally by: Wesley Baird Originally by: Mr Manufacture guys, guys Morsus Mihi find 135bn ISK a month to fuel over 400 POS, and they build 10 titans, cos they work really hard... its true... they mine all the veld in tribute and NPC there thats gives them the 2000 bn isk capfleet they have, and finds them all that ISK for POS fuelling its true, fluf told me so no exploiting in that alliance Not my alt!! Seriously! are you sure? you posted 4 minutes after me it aint looking good
Aramith	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:49:00 - [926] Originally by: Mr Manufacture guys, guys Morsus Mihi find 135bn ISK a month to fuel over 400 POS, and they build 10 titans, cos they work really hard... its true... they mine all the veld in tribute and NPC there thats gives them the 2000 bn isk capfleet they have, and finds them all that ISK for POS fuelling its true, fluf told me so no exploiting in that alliance you know you can say the same thing about a number of alliances. I have heard that BoB has closer to 30 titans not the 15 or so listed in the "known Titans" thread in COAD. I am also sure they a large number of POS to support with fuel. Or what about AAA i mean they have atleast 11 titans and they claim space and are bound to have quite a few POS up and running as well. Are you just upset because you tried to get into a corp in morsus mihi and got rejected? Or did whatever corp/alliance your main belongs to get beat up on when they attacked/were attacked by MM?
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:49:00 - [927] Originally by: Cuchulain Spartan Its also interesting how Alchemy arrives around the same time as this exploit is being shut down. A bit of a coincidence me thinks. Alchemy (or rather various similar means to the same ends) was discussed for a long time in the industry forum before its announcement. The words of the announcement showed that CCP had taken much of the arguments there on board, so little cause for paranoia there. If this exploit is older than a couple of months, it may be that the parameters of the alchemy process need to be revised. It depends just how much inaccurate data is out there...
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:50:00 - [928] Well well well. How ironic that the people trying to dig graves for others ended up digging their own grave For future, there should be a name and shame for people guilty of this. Hall of Infamy -- Billion Isk Mission
Ronja	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:51:00 - [929] If I knew of this 4 years ago, I'd do it in a heartbeat. That's 4 years of free gamemplay filled with god-like status. Cudoes to the 'xploiters! CCP Economist guys fail!!!! Not notice something this big is hillarious, you should work for US government :)
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:51:00 - [930] Originally by: Aramith Originally by: Mr Manufacture guys, guys Morsus Mihi find 135bn ISK a month to fuel over 400 POS, and they build 10 titans, cos they work really hard... its true... they mine all the veld in tribute and NPC there thats gives them the 2000 bn isk capfleet they have, and finds them all that ISK for POS fuelling its true, fluf told me so no exploiting in that alliance you know you can say the same thing about a number of alliances. I have heard that BoB has closer to 30 titans not the 15 or so listed in the "known Titans" thread in COAD. I am also sure they a large number of POS to support with fuel. Or what about AAA i mean they have atleast 11 titans and they claim space and are bound to have quite a few POS up and running as well. Are you just upset because you tried to get into a corp in morsus mihi and got rejected? Or did whatever corp/alliance your main belongs to get beat up on when they attacked/were attacked by MM? BoB have moon income which is off the scale. Do you have any idea how many high end moons and T2 BPO's they have? They've been rich for a very long time. Morsus Mihi however have had barely a handful of high-ends. There is NO OTHER ALLIANCE in the whole game who fuel the amount of POS they do, have 10+ titans, and free dreads/carriers to all members, and live in space as crappy as theirs. Not a single one. So don't come here and say 'that can apply to any number of alliances' because the truth is that it applies to NONE. Apart from MM.

Haldane IV Einstein's Dreams	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:52:00 - [931] Originally by: DaiTengu .............. The guy put in his resignation to CCP and it was rejected. [/quote I don't recall seeing where T20 offered to resign, can I trouble you for a link?
Cheeba Don Ihatalo Navy Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:52:00 - [932] but but I thought the carebears in empire were the problem?? :P
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:54:00 - [933] Originally by: Lord WarATron For future, there should be a name and shame for people guilty of this. Hall of Infamy There already is: Having a Bob-corp in your Employment History.
Canjaio	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:55:00 - [934] CCP knew this problem existed for a long time before they did any banning. They knew about it long enough to create a new game mechanic, alchemy. The knew long enough to test and impliment it and give it a few weeks to get settled into the game. Alchemy is just the bandaid to cover up the expected turmoil in the T2 market and to minimize emorage quit fallout in the masses. Someone has probably already posted this but I'm not reading 30 pages of thread to find out.
Johncrab Minmatar XBeyond	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:55:00 - [935] Edited by: Johncrab on 11/12/2008 18:56:03 Originally by: Decimus Octavius from eve-online.de comes this Quote: Hello Every one I would like to tell you a short eve story Today all of my EvE Online accounts were banned I was sure that this day would come. What surprises me is that it took CCP this long to catch up with me. Even though they knew about it. But now to the story: The time is November 2004. The EvE Universe is excited about the Starbase patch. The new System Sov. is introduced. The face of Eve has changed. How right they are. Two weeks after Patch day we built our first POS. We wanted a piece of the moon mining pie and also wanted to figure out how it word as none of us knew exactly. After our first try we were aggravated that we could get it working and decided to try again the next day to finish our project. The next day to our amazment we found that the silos in our unfinished POS chain were full. After a short time we found out the reason for this phenomenon. The POS system was BUGGED. Of course a petition was sent to CCP to make them aware of this situation and the answer was sobering. ôYour petition has been receivedö CLOSE But the phenomenon was still there. After a week we decided what to do. We built a POS network that included over a dozen POSÆs in lowsec and checked the market prices. After a short look we decided on Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. The Story today. The expanse of this so far is probably lost on most people so I would like to make a few facts clear. In the past 4 jears we are talking about ISK in value of 2.500.000.000.000 ISK to 3.000.000.000.000 ISK. ThatÆs 2500 û 3000 billion. Everyone that owns a T2 item can bet that it was build in part from resources due to this phenomenon. At this point I would like to thank CCP for making it possible to buy GTCÆs with ISK. So much about us. What the other 3 large alliances did with this knowledge is unknown to me. But I can tell you that weÆve sat with coverts in front of POS chains and watched it happen. Titans are expensive ! In closing. Some IÆm sure will say ôwell are you proud of yourself?ö or ôYou cheater-exploiterö I only have one thing to say to that. . This issue allowed me to play Eve how and when I liked. It didnÆt matter what item or what happened in Eve. I spent ISK with out thinking about the price. I havenÆt paid a cent for any of my Eve accounts for 4 years now. And have had many amusing moments reading posts in EVE-O. I donÆt know you and to be honest Eve and most of you I could care less about. But my thanks go out to you all, you were wonderful statistics on this virtual stage. Regards, The Writer If this is true and CCP know's about it from day 1, then this isn't a case of exploit but a conspiracy and an inside job. You best come clean on this one CCP, this is starting to look even uglier than the T20 affair.
Adam C Caldari H A V O C Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 18:59:00 - [936] Extremely disappointing that Evoke was involved with this and CCP let it happen for so long.
Serrin Shamandar	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:00:00 - [937] Originally by: Madius If CCP has a halfway decent logging/tracking system (and they better) it won't matter if POSes get offlined. Christ, people rag on Blizzard, but they can pull up things you said months ago in chat or trace money/item transfers across dozens of accounts and characters, you'd hope CCP would be at least be able to see who was benefiting from the resources beyond the accounts directly tied to the exploiting. Ug, please don't hold up Blizzard's auditing as an example of something praiseworthy. Do you know the significance of the word "ruststorm"? That's a shining example of process and auditing failure. Originally by: Mariokoli Mianana Check out this Bruce Schneier article regarding audits. It is a great article about something that applies in this very scenario. When something makes it through QA and ends up released and exploitable, the thing that will help to ensure that people are playing fair and report, rather than use, possible exploits is to have a good auditing system. Using the segments from the Schneier article, I'd have to say that CCP would fall in the middle category. They were able to reverse and use audits to figure out who had been doing what and where, but they didn't have valuable warning flag audits for this sort of thing. I think that the "Research & Statistics" group should not only be focusing on understanding micro/macro-economics through EVE, but also in developing prophylactic audit warnings, noting when something goes out of band and warrants investigation without relying almost solely on whistle-blowers filing petitions. Quoting a Schneier article even, nice! I'm still loving digging through Skein and hunting down rumors on Threefish... On topic, I think this is probably the single most useful post in this thread CCP! I was thinking of it while going through this threadnaught (honest!), but hadn't gotten to the end yet. Setting up some variable min/max variations (with/by volume by region) or possibly even buildcost/sanity built tests on buildable items as stored procs to run on fairly regular basis (during downtime?) to flag serious anomalies should at least be considered. Maybe the methods I listed might need to be tweaked, etc, but prophylactic audit warnings like Mariokoli suggested would be another great tool in spotting item duping and market funny business that could help spot ISK sellers/buyers. Stuff off the market/contract system I'm not sure about. I'm sure it's highly variable, but get with your Econ Phd who knows his higher maths and numbers to come up with something - it's doable, even if it does just generate a warnings for an employee to filter through for "serious stuff". Lastly, the people who are criticizing, accusing, and making decisions based solely off internet rumor (the 4 year peeps) are making me want to either laugh or cry - I'm not sure which yet.
Millenia Fallenwing	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:00:00 - [938] Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 19:02:18 Band of Brothers alliance have always known about exploits and have always known and used them to their advantage. 20 Large towers in 3 different systems. With the Same setup as listed how to get this exploit. So i would request. Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. I have no solid proof. However all of the towers are exact same setup, in 3 different systems. Over the past 6 months HUGE amounts of dyspro has been stolen by directors defecting. So only asking who is involved and how that effects other alliance growth.
Zeta LaFrege	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:01:00 - [939] Originally by: Cheeba Don but but I thought the carebears in empire were the problem?? :P haha this made me chuckle. After all the crap empire-huggers have had, its some players in 0.0 who have made billions off an exploit. at least the empire-huggers spent hours of every day grinding missions legitimately....
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:02:00 - [940] Edited by: MyOwnSling on 11/12/2008 19:02:09 Originally by: Cuchulain Spartan Edited by: Cuchulain Spartan on 11/12/2008 18:59:04 Originally by: Canjaio CCP knew this problem existed for a long time before they did any banning. They knew about it long enough to create a new game mechanic, alchemy. The knew long enough to test and impliment it and give it a few weeks to get settled into the game. Alchemy is just the bandaid to cover up the expected turmoil in the T2 market and to minimize emorage quit fallout in the masses. Well said. I hope this isnt true but given CCP history you are more than likely correct. I disagree. There is no hard proof that CCP knew anything about this. There won't be unless CCP explicitly states it. We cannot go off the word of one guy. Unfortunately, CCP is not likely to tell us how long they've known. I suppose it's even possible their records were not well maintained 4 years ago so they may not even know how long they've "known." We need moar informations! edit: I disagreed before you edited. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.

Ryel Theon Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:02:00 - [941] Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. You know you can't prove a negative, right?
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:04:00 - [942] Originally by: Ryel Theon Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. You know you can't prove a negative, right? Sure you can, but that's not how it works in the real world. Innocent until proven guilty. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Zaafir	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:05:00 - [943] Wow. I understand the competition amongst you larger alliences is tremendous, but come on. It was an exploit, it was reported, it is getting fixed. This only means that unless you needed the cheap parts generated by the exploit you are in line to make some good money or perhaps are in a position to destroy weakened corps/alliences now that members are getting banned and isk removed. I say--- Stop *****ing, start celebrating, and gear up for war. Seriously- I already went in and bought a couple extra T2 ships in anticipation of higher prices. Look what happened to the oil industry when a scare of rising fuel prices hit that market. Sure we are in a recession right now, but the oil companies made some serious money caused from the scare of higher prices.
Nathan Baxter Absolutely No Retreat Blade.	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:05:00 - [944] Originally by: Lord WarATron Well well well. How ironic that the people trying to dig graves for others ended up digging their own grave For future, there should be a name and shame for people guilty of this. Hall of Infamy What the man says !
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:06:00 - [945] Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. You know you can't prove a negative, right? Sure you can, but that's not how it works in the real world. Innocent until proven guilty. A handy mechanism for MM right now, who are looking dangerously like the alliance who most 'benefitted' from this 'error'
Stele Toque Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:06:00 - [946] I wonder if the remaining corps will need a bailout?
Chomin H'ak Integrated Takeovers	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:06:00 - [947] WTB CCP response now with clarity/transparency Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Gerald Sphinx Gallente Right Hand of Death	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:07:00 - [948] Guys, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but nowhere in the article do I see that CCP knew of the exploit for four years. All it said that the petition was submitted five DAYS before 7 Dec 2008. What sources do you use to come up with this so-called four-year conspiracy? Until you give me hard, unadulterated, certified proof to back up such claims, I will have to take your word for it. And until then, I will trust CCP.
James Hetfeild	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:08:00 - [949] Getting free moon candy is bad mmmkay. Serious question. Was the exploit only viable with ferrojello? -JCR
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:08:00 - [950] Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 19:02:18 Band of Brothers alliance have always known about exploits and have always known and used them to their advantage. 20 Large towers in 3 different systems. With the Same setup as listed how to get this exploit. So i would request. Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. I have no solid proof. However all of the towers are exact same setup, in 3 different systems. Over the past 6 months HUGE amounts of dyspro has been stolen by directors defecting. So only asking who is involved and how that effects other alliance growth. You do know that some people use reactors on pos's the way they were intended to be used right? We gonna assume that everyone with reactors and silos on a tower has been exploiting now?

Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus R.U.R.	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:08:00 - [951] To those who say that people are adopting a holier-than-thou attitude when they would line their pockets with the exploit if they knew about it too: I say no, human beings are fairer than you think.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:09:00 - [952] Originally by: James Hetfeild Getting free moon candy is bad mmmkay. Serious question. Was the exploit only viable with ferrojello? -JCR Apparently it worked with all reactions.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:09:00 - [953] GM receives petition detailing how to make valuable complex reaction products "for free". GM, for some reason, closes said petition without acting on it. GM gets lots of ISK.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:09:00 - [954] Originally by: James Hetfeild Getting free moon candy is bad mmmkay. Serious question. Was the exploit only viable with ferrojello? -JCR I think it would have worked with anything that used a reactor, but came down to a matter of ecconomics as to what ones the exploiters spanked the most.
Ebodhisatva The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:09:00 - [955] Edited by: Ebodhisatva on 11/12/2008 19:09:38 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Note this line which was added to the op. But really m8, do me a favor... do not question things like how this _could_ happen but how the _consequences_ can be dealt with in the future
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:10:00 - [956] Originally by: Serrin Shamandar Ug, please don't hold up Blizzard's auditing as an example of something praiseworthy. Do you know the significance of the word "ruststorm"? That's a shining example of process and auditing failure. You mean the same rust storm that wiped out countless duped and hacked items? EVE needs something like that.
James Hetfeild	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:10:00 - [957] Thanks Mal p.s JohnnyCash Says Hi
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:11:00 - [958] Another GM receives petition about how to make complex reaction products "for free". Yet another GM sees this petition, gets in contact with his buddies. His buddies quickly switch their "for free" reaction towers over to legitimate reaction towers.
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:12:00 - [959] The important thing is for CCP to trace the iskies from the 7 corps to the allaince they supported. We all know these iskies went into capital fleets. There is simply no way to spend this much on regular ships. First titans should be seized, then POS (moon miners first, others second), then capital ships, until the full fine is paid in full. Only removing the benefit will discourage future cheaters. Also, all involve parties should be banned. The allaince leaders and corp leaders had to know where the isks came from.
Straife North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:12:00 - [960] Interesting how you're allowed to discuss exploits but close any other thread even barely resembling a tie to discussing an exploit... So how's that new death camp working out? --------

MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:13:00 - [961] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. You know you can't prove a negative, right? Sure you can, but that's not how it works in the real world. Innocent until proven guilty. A handy mechanism for MM right now, who are looking dangerously like the alliance who most 'benefitted' from this 'error' I have neither seen nor heard anything to suggest this aside from your allegations. Not even a peep in alliance. FYI there is a reason your thread got locked. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Viper ShizzIe The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:14:00 - [962] Originally by: Straife Interesting how you're allowed to discuss exploits but close any other thread even barely resembling a tie to discussing an exploit... So how's that new death camp working out? quoting this so it can't be edited
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:15:00 - [963] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 11/12/2008 19:15:45 lol. slaps Ev0ke ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:15:00 - [964] Originally by: James Hetfeild Getting free moon candy is bad mmmkay. Serious question. Was the exploit only viable with ferrojello? Nope. I bet 100 mil isk that hypersynaptic fibers were even more produced and frauded. That material just crashed during the past weeks. Way even almost below building costs. Why did no one of the economic team looked deeper at this? Are they only doing 'trend analysis' and fancy stuff. Don't they have even the most basic production/consumption tools? I hope they will get better tools now so that a quick glance at the right statistics will alarm them instantly if there is something foul going on. Oh and a question. Did the economic team investigate the prices before the big bang? Are they investigating now to find out how big the damage was? Until we get more news from CCP (which is hopefully soon) the only thing to do is to be patient.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:15:00 - [965] this has been reported to ccp on a number of occasions, now theyve fixed it. way to go ccp; whilst i dont think cheating is cool, i think your attention to the important details is severly lacking; frankly its in-excuseable. ccp in head in backside shocker. Sorely dissapointed that your making out like this was first reported 5 days ago, when if you add 700 days to that you might get closer to the truth. anyhow, that aside i am glad the people who kept using this got banned, however realistically, if ccp didnt care for that long, why the hell should the players. - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
Athena Attom Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:17:00 - [966] Edited by: Athena Attom on 11/12/2008 19:17:21 Quote: http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 Quote: Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. One of the guys banned for this exploit. I must say I cant be the only one laughing at ccp? Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:17:00 - [967] Lots of people have been demanding things. I would like to make a few points why it's in CCP's best interest to dedicate resources and attention to this event. Right or wrong, Eve has a public perception of a game where people have historically prospered through cheating. Add to that the incorrect perception that it's very difficult for a new player to compete with established ones. Now we have an event where an unknown number of entities benefited from potential trillions of ISK over an up to 4 year period. How is a potential new player going to react to this? Will they think "well gosh, if I work real hard and sell lots of GTCs I can compete with the oldibes!" I don't think so. The Atari boxed Eve deal is imminent. You're on the verge of resuming healthy subscriber growth. You've got the hardware to support that future growth. A good slash-and-burn policy with corpses hanging in the wind to signal a zero tolerance policy to over the top cheating (and item duplication is as bad as an MMO cheat gets) will give a green light and hope to the future arrivals. While it's true that there's no such thing as bad publicity, good publicity can have an even more pronounced positive effect. The future of Eve is the new players. Not the current addicts or crusty exploiting trillionares. Do the right thing and spend the resources to examine DB dumps for POSes set up this way.
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:17:00 - [968] Edited by: MyOwnSling on 11/12/2008 19:17:56 Originally by: NeoTheo attention to the important details I think this is key. If the initial reports of 4 years of misuse are proven true, then it's going to come back to this. Important details got lost/ignored/overlooked. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:18:00 - [969] Who were the cheating alliances ? Names please.
Aramith	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:18:00 - [970] Originally by: Mr Manufacture BoB have moon income which is off the scale. Do you have any idea how many high end moons and T2 BPO's they have? They've been rich for a very long time. Morsus Mihi however have had barely a handful of high-ends. There is NO OTHER ALLIANCE in the whole game who fuel the amount of POS they do, have 10+ titans, and free dreads/carriers to all members, and live in space as crappy as theirs. Not a single one. So don't come here and say 'that can apply to any number of alliances' because the truth is that it applies to NONE. Apart from MM. oh yes tribute is a crap region. i gues 11+ systems with crockite (3 that also contain mercoxit and have atleast 18 belts) including one with 30+ belts is complete and total crap. not to mention the complexes mentioned earlier by an MM member (atleast one 10/10 and one 8/10). yeah that is a real crap region. If that is not good enough of a region for you then maybe your standards for what is a good region are a little too high.

Nokkan Soth	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:18:00 - [971] I would like to know how CCP ignored their petition 4 years ago about the problem, and then turns around and bans the accounts? Mind you im not involved but CCP has to take the blame on this exploit effeting the whole Eve economy and I just cant wait to see what happens n the nex t month now that these suppliers are gone. CCP not responding to the original submission of the bug that was reported to them condoned the actions of those players and what they were doing. But will CCP take the blame? I doubt it, but we shall see.
Cuchulain Spartan	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:19:00 - [972] Originally by: Karina Bellac GM receives petition detailing how to make valuable complex reaction products "for free". GM, for some reason, closes said petition without acting on it. GM gets lots of ISK. LMAO, is this man pyschic, it like he's reading my mind. I better throw my tinfoil hat on. I hope we are both wrong.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:20:00 - [973] Originally by: MyOwnSling I have neither seen nor heard anything to suggest this aside from your allegations. Not even a peep in alliance. FYI there is a reason your thread got locked. well, do feel free to tell us how the owners of Tribute can afford 135bn a month in POS fuel and a 2000bn isk cap fleet. we're all ears
Tres Miandre	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:21:00 - [974] Edited by: Tres Miandre on 11/12/2008 19:23:58 Originally by: Gerald Sphinx Guys, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but nowhere in the article do I see that CCP knew of the exploit for four years. All it said that the petition was submitted five DAYS before 7 Dec 2008. What sources do you use to come up with this so-called four-year conspiracy? Until you give me hard, unadulterated, certified proof to back up such claims, I will have to take your word for it. And until then, I will trust CCP. The primary source was from an offline article that was part of the start of this whole thing. In that forum post.. some of which is quoted earlier in this forum, he specifically claims to have petitioned the problem 4 years ago. It is not definitive proof... yet it is not something which should be written off either... especially when there have been issues involving some players being allowed to retain advantages over others in the past.
Serrin Shamandar	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:21:00 - [975] Edited by: Serrin Shamandar on 11/12/2008 19:25:33 Originally by: Madius Originally by: Serrin Shamandar Ug, please don't hold up Blizzard's auditing as an example of something praiseworthy. Do you know the significance of the word "ruststorm"? That's a shining example of process and auditing failure. You mean the same rust storm that wiped out countless duped and hacked items? EVE needs something like that. Yes, but also the one that continually only caught many, some, or just a few of them. Numbers as far as "rusted" items were released, but once you lose track of duped materials - you might as well have either one or two of them - or a million. Good auditing decreases the millions down to something manageable before it wrecks the game environment. Edit: Also, if you're not familiar with the released details of how the ruststorms actually worked - it's an interesting read.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:22:00 - [976] Originally by: Aramith oh yes tribute is a crap region. i gues 11+ systems with crockite (3 that also contain mercoxit and have atleast 18 belts) including one with 30+ belts is complete and total crap. not to mention the complexes mentioned earlier by an MM member (atleast one 10/10 and one 8/10). yeah that is a real crap region. If that is not good enough of a region for you then maybe your standards for what is a good region are a little too high. didnt you get the memo? high end complexes are no longer static and havent been for a long time but you go ahead and believe that they fund 10+ titans, hundreds of dreads, and fuel 450 POS through a spot of mining and plex running it sounds ever so credible
Xarosa	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:23:00 - [977] Originally by: Solostrom Demand Perma ban on any account who used it... not just the alts... every account associated! You **ing holes! Originally by:* Solostrom and where in the hell was Internal affairs group in this u useless fricking butt pirates?!? A wise man has something to say. A fool has to say something. Note: you're not a wise man. -)(-
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:25:00 - [978] Originally by: Gerald Sphinx Guys, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but nowhere in the article do I see that CCP knew of the exploit for four years. All it said that the petition was submitted five DAYS before 7 Dec 2008. What sources do you use to come up with this so-called four-year conspiracy? Until you give me hard, unadulterated, certified proof to back up such claims, I will have to take your word for it. And until then, I will trust CCP. CCP, the actual company and development team, probably didn't know about this for four years. After all, all that's needed is for the GM who answered the initial petition to just close it and hope no one else on the inside notices. Additionally, a GM protecting those using this exploit wouldn't be too hard to imagine. All they'd need to do is keep an ear to the ground on this, and as soon as anything gets to CCP "proper", quickly alert their friends and get them to online those silos and fill them with reactants. By the time CCP "proper" gets around to checking towers, the friends of said GM(s) are all running legitimate reactions.
Caiman Graystock Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:26:00 - [979] I hope those taking advantage of this exploit are permanently banned. Very good. The fact this has been going on and only just uncovered though leaves a LOT to be desired, CCP- this has directly affected every single subsscriber- for how long? **** poor, to be honest. I'm sure the alliances who owned the stations taking advantage of this exploit are busy feigning ignorance right now, eh.
C4w3 Minmatar Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:26:00 - [980] GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 Maltroc Take me to the EVE-Online forum thread View author employment history View author posting habits View only posts by author Posted - 2005.09.01 16:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Maltroc on 01/09/2005 16:31:30 Originally by: kieronWhat Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others. Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy :) because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. ANGRY INTERNET GAMING MOBS IRL are bad MKAY!

Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus R.U.R.	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:27:00 - [981] Originally by: Mari Katarin Lots of people have been demanding things. I would like to make a few points why it's in CCP's best interest to dedicate resources and attention to this event. Right or wrong, Eve has a public perception of a game where people have historically prospered through cheating. Add to that the incorrect perception that it's very difficult for a new player to compete with established ones. Now we have an event where an unknown number of entities benefited from potential trillions of ISK over an up to 4 year period. How is a potential new player going to react to this? Will they think "well gosh, if I work real hard and sell lots of GTCs I can compete with the oldibes!" I don't think so. The Atari boxed Eve deal is imminent. You're on the verge of resuming healthy subscriber growth. You've got the hardware to support that future growth. A good slash-and-burn policy with corpses hanging in the wind to signal a zero tolerance policy to over the top cheating (and item duplication is as bad as an MMO cheat gets) will give a green light and hope to the future arrivals. While it's true that there's no such thing as bad publicity, good publicity can have an even more pronounced positive effect. The future of Eve is the new players. Not the current addicts or crusty exploiting trillionares. Do the right thing and spend the resources to examine DB dumps for POSes set up this way. This.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:27:00 - [982] If only I could find a sound byte of Bender laughing. It would sum up my opinion of this thread. Cheaters get banned. I don't give a monkeys about anything else, if the idiots responsible are at least wounded, I'm happy. I get the feeling that CCP are going to carefully consider their responce, anyway. Makes sense. (That said, if any of the major alliances were responsible for this, they should get their balance set to -900 Billion ISK.) ________________________________________________
Saturo Matare Capax Infiniti	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:27:00 - [983] Me already knows who was banned. Check some other forums nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Athena Attom Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:27:00 - [984] Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 Maltroc Take me to the EVE-Online forum thread View author employment history View author posting habits View only posts by author Posted - 2005.09.01 16:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Maltroc on 01/09/2005 16:31:30 Originally by: kieronWhat Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others. Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy :) because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. stop stealing my posts! Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Ker HarSol Minmatar Zip - I	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:28:00 - [985] STOP ADDING NEW STUFF TO YOUR GAME! Fix the bugs first g**damn!! Postpone patches, stop developing new things. FIX YOUR GAME!! This only happened because you add add add new stuff to it all the time but keep the old bugs and exploits in there. How much more need to happen ffs?! Complexes broken, cosmos giving billions per hour, officers respawning at insane rates, pos giving stuff for free and thousand things more! FIX THE GAME FIRST!
LoganFire Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:28:00 - [986] One thing that CCP are not telling you is that this exploit was used and abused by Gms, thats why it never been spotted till now I am so cool
Aramith	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:29:00 - [987] Originally by: Mr Manufacture didnt you get the memo? high end complexes are no longer static and havent been for a long time but you go ahead and believe that they fund 10+ titans, hundreds of dreads, and fuel 450 POS through a spot of mining and plex running it sounds ever so credible oh yes i saw that memo but did you read the part that the complex always respawns in the same constellation. anyone with passable probing skills should be able to easily find the complex with only marginal amounts of work. and if you call a "spot of mining" the ability to clean out all the crockite from 168 asteroid belts (48 of those belts also contain mercoxit) then i would hate to guess at what you call real mining
Crackuji	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:29:00 - [988] Originally by: Athena Attom Edited by: Athena Attom on 11/12/2008 19:17:21 Quote: http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 Quote: Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. One of the guys banned for this exploit. I must say I cant be the only one laughing at ccp? ****in hell
Gibmundur Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:29:00 - [989] I remember hearing from our spy on g ts about them bragging about there pos isk printing, never did i think it was an exploit. Can Stain Alliance plz get all the stations G seized during there campaign down in Esoteria back in 2005. kibb
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:30:00 - [990] Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 19:31:58 Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 19:30:46 Originally by: Serrin Shamandar Yes, but also the one that continually only caught many, some, or just a few of them. Numbers as far as "rusted" items were released, but once you lose track of duped materials - you might as well have either one or two of them - or a million. Good auditing decreases the millions down to something manageable before it wrecks the game environment. I honestly don't see how they could've done any better given the framework. They pretty much have to go through the entire server item list and compare IDs, which would be enormously stressful to do all at once. Remember, D2/battle.net wasn't a "true" MMO and was never designed as such; it was a single-player game that could also be played online, and the data structures reflected that, for better or for worse. Also, when I referred to Blizzard, I meant WoW in particular, which has a far better internal tracking system than D2, and I'd bet a good deal better than EVE's.

C4w3 Minmatar Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:30:00 - [991] Originally by: Athena Attom Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 Maltroc Take me to the EVE-Online forum thread View author employment history View author posting habits View only posts by author Posted - 2005.09.01 16:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Maltroc on 01/09/2005 16:31:30 Originally by: kieronWhat Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others. Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy :) because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. stop stealing my posts! Sorry m8te Confirming you R O C K ANGRY INTERNET GAMING MOBS IRL are bad MKAY!
Johncrab Minmatar XBeyond	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:31:00 - [992] Originally by: LoganFire One thing that CCP are not telling you is that this exploit was used and abused by Gms, thats why it never been spotted till now This is starting to look like the most likelly scenario tbh. Hard to believe it but everything I've seen so far on this subject points in that direction.
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:33:00 - [993] Originally by: LoganFire One thing that CCP are not telling you is that this exploit was used and abused by Gms, thats why it never been spotted till now lol proof? ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
ZXohne	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:33:00 - [994] This is one absolutely excellent game with so many mechanics it will keep us talking forever and of course we have the "old women" who like to moan, the brats that like to feel better about their poverty by saying "aha that is how they got so rich!!!!!11" the list of ppl goes on. We really should see this for the human error that it has been and add some logic and reason to it. Speculating here but it sounds like a petition got deleted a few times which means that CCP is reliant on Dev's/GM's etc. which is perfectly acceptable since this is a game with many mechanics and it is impossible to take responsibility for everything and watch over every single detail i.e. it is very possible for something like this to happen. Yet CCP has shown that they are handling it - even though it is a scandal. Imho we should ask ourselves "do I enjoy this game" and then add some fun and ask for heads to roll in the light of this fraud (yarr). But to say that you will quit EVE for an exploit that was covered up by individuals inside EVE??? You are the reason why CCP have to handle us like customers and not as gamers. You are the reason some dev's go home tonight cussing at EVE cos certain brats just have to throw a tantrum cos they cannot accept the things they cannot change. Can you not think that certain things are just unreasonable to ask (rollback the game to before the exploit, I want to keep my skill point emo)? CCP has shown their attitude by facing all the moaning emo brats and saying that there was an exploit etc. etc. Stop being such *****s and think from their perspective THEN ask your questions. Relax EVE is a game that favor brains, a cheater in EVE can never win forever :P - suddenly no more free moon minerals and too many POS's where does the fuel come from? Suddenly the rich titan pilot isn't so care-free anymore and he has to do something for isk - killmail. Don't you think it will be fun to take the prized POS's down? Then where do those illegal titans go? on our killmails ofcourse - the list goes on, use your imagination. My point is that the cheating WILL come our way in one form or another and this is just a game. CCP I love you \o/
Karla Kay	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:34:00 - [995] CCP alt spotted
Razer Morphis Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:37:00 - [996] Originally by: SilverSoldier Edited by: SilverSoldier on 10/12/2008 21:41:28 dang.. 2nd page.. 4years is allot of iskies... ALLOT! share the wealth! or will i get banned for that?:P No, but you should get banned for making up such a dreadful typo. ----------------------
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:37:00 - [997] Well there's your 4 year's proof right there.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:37:00 - [998] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/12/2008 19:38:49 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/12/2008 19:38:01 Originally by: Aramith oh yes tribute is a crap region. i gues 11+ systems with crockite (3 that also contain mercoxit and have atleast 18 belts) including one with 30+ belts is complete and total crap. not to mention the complexes mentioned earlier by an MM member (atleast one 10/10 and one 8/10). yeah that is a real crap region. If that is not good enough of a region for you then maybe your standards for what is a good region are a little too high. belts are crap - they dont give much isk even if you take 10% from renters refines. They have no chance to actually compete with plexes. And when it comes to plexes: nu-uh. Tribute didnt have 8/10 nor 10/10. Closest 8/10 was in VENAL and it was farmed by RZR/MM/omen more-less same amount of time. Thus income from that plex for MM alone was pretty low. Another 8/10 was around KW-. This one was farmed by RZR (well actually me + lovekebab) and later was "given" to russkies so they could farm it. Last 8/10 in the area was in tenal-branch pathway and it was farmed by D2. When it comes to 10/10 there was one in aa- area (systems where razor have 3-4 outposts, sov4 and stuff) but almost noone did it - because at the time 10/10 plexes were MUCH harder (random respawns which pretty much locked down compy) and dropped crap (x-type loot but about 10% drop rate or less). This plex got fixed after my petitions (both loot and respawns) tho it was just before exploration kicked in and statics were removed. From "good" thingies in the area there was 6/10 plex 1 jump from EOY (tenal) but it was bugged and wasnt dropping loot. It got fixed at same time as 10/10 - just before exploration kicked in (or even at the same time). So no, when it comes to plexes tribute was crap - Tenal and Venal were goldmines. No idea how it is with moons, im not a moon miner.
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:38:00 - [999] Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 19:38:08 Originally by: ZXohne :words: My point is that the cheating WILL come our way in one form or another and this is just a game. CCP I love you \o/ You're right, it is "just a game". And maybe it's time to hit the reset button.
Razer Morphis Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:39:00 - [1000] Originally by: Highpriest Aden I dont belive for a single second that CCP hasent know this for quite some time, there is a fixed number of C64 moons ingame, and they are all beeing harvestet 24/7. So with some reverse Enginering it would have been foolishing easy to see exactly how much is beeing produced. CCP do not "reverse engineer", that's a bit illegal. They are busy for the last 4 years fixing the lag. ----------------------

Allanah Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:41:00 - [1001] Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 Maltroc Take me to the EVE-Online forum thread View author employment history View author posting habits View only posts by author Posted - 2005.09.01 16:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Maltroc on 01/09/2005 16:31:30 Originally by: kieronWhat Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others. Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy :) because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. If this has indeed been going on for 4 years as suggested by the SH forums and this eve-o post, then the whole market is completly ... i dont even know what to say. The market, the 0.0 mechanics, just about everything in the game would be VERY affected by this. This is bad... TeamSpeak/Vent and forum hosting services
Charles Javeroux Gallente INTERSTELLAR CREDIT	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:41:00 - [1002] So the bad guys were caught. I speculate that after this incident, 2-3 trillions of ISK were written off with banned accounts and assets. Just like that...one big ISK sink. Quite a big impact on EVE market ---- - INTERSTELLAR CREDIT - your trade, our finance ----
Bimjo Caldari Domination. Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:42:00 - [1003] Can we have a list of offenders please ? ====================
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:43:00 - [1004] Originally by: Allanah If this has indeed been going on for 4 years as suggested by the SH forums and this eve-o post, then the whole market is completly ... i dont even know what to say. The market, the 0.0 mechanics, just about everything in the game would be VERY affected by this. This is bad... Yeah, pretty much, considering the sheer volume that would have been injected into the market. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Serrin Shamandar	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:43:00 - [1005] Originally by: Madius Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 19:31:58 Edited by: Madius on 11/12/2008 19:30:46 Originally by: Serrin Shamandar Yes, but also the one that continually only caught many, some, or just a few of them. Numbers as far as "rusted" items were released, but once you lose track of duped materials - you might as well have either one or two of them - or a million. Good auditing decreases the millions down to something manageable before it wrecks the game environment. I honestly don't see how they could've done any better given the framework. They pretty much have to go through the entire server item list and compare IDs, which would be enormously stressful to do all at once. Remember, D2/battle.net wasn't a "true" MMO and was never designed as such; it was a single-player game that could also be played online, and the data structures reflected that, for better or for worse. Also, when I referred to Blizzard, I meant WoW in particular, which has a far better internal tracking system than D2, and I'd bet a good deal better than EVE's. Er, sorry 'bout that - Blizzard to me usually means the Diablo and StarCraft franchises. I never really got in to Wow, and really don't know or want to know much about it. I'm aware that the framework in D2 imposed some limitations - but nothing says that you couldn't do a slower constantly running ruststorm that would probably shake and/or destroy the market rather than an hours long insanely resource intensive one that happened long after the market had glutted with cheap and easily available dupes.
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:43:00 - [1006] Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 11/12/2008 19:02:18 Band of Brothers alliance have always known about exploits and have always known and used them to their advantage. 20 Large towers in 3 different systems. With the Same setup as listed how to get this exploit. So i would request. Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. I have no solid proof. However all of the towers are exact same setup, in 3 different systems. Over the past 6 months HUGE amounts of dyspro has been stolen by directors defecting. So only asking who is involved and how that effects other alliance growth. Proof or STFU Also post with your alliance main you twit ! (Damm now I am defending BoB, and I can 't alliances)
drondo	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:45:00 - [1007] i know in addition to banning said players, corps and alliances CCP should donate all of their seized/impounded/forefitted items, ships and materials to the rest of the eve world. i know i would love to have a shiny new ror or a cool high dollar bpo hehehehe see we all would win from their screw up
Miss Ticca	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:45:00 - [1008] Jita market is going crazy All tech2 modules are gone.... run while you can!
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:46:00 - [1009] Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Alright, that is a good start. However you've failed to address other important issues, CCP. Obviously, the impact on the economy was significant. But you reset all market history, thus hurting the innocent and honest players. What form of ... restitution is planned? Outposts, Super-Capitals, and the like. We KNOW this exploit funded them. And won some 0.0 sov wars. How do you handle the huge 0.0 political mess this has created? I have unanswered questions.
Calleb	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:48:00 - [1010] This is bad m'kay no doubt about it. But 4 years? - Has it even been possible to do POS reactions for 4 years? If so then my life has been completely sucked away and I am going to petition that - lol

MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:49:00 - [1011] Originally by: Solomon XI Quote: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Alright, that is a good start. However you've failed to address other important issues, CCP. Obviously, the impact on the economy was significant. But you reset all market history, thus hurting the innocent and honest players. What form of ... restitution is planned? Outposts, Super-Capitals, and the like. We KNOW this exploit funded them. And won some 0.0 sov wars. How do you handle the huge 0.0 political mess this has created? I have unanswered questions. From some of the unsubstantiated posts I have read, the offenders have apparently lost titans, poses, and of course all assets due to bans. Take that as you will. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Razer Morphis Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:49:00 - [1012] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX well you will know soon though bob and exe are to stupid to do something like this And you are too stupid to spell "too" correctly. ----------------------
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:50:00 - [1013] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Orree snip Orree, take it from me - it doesn't matter what you say. To some, you are guilty, to others, you are innocent, nothing you say will change that. To the rest of us, you're innocent until proven guilty / banned. May as well save your breath mate, CCP are the only people that can clear / condemn you... and even then, the first paragraph still holds true ;) Originally by: Shadoo Originally by: Kuar Z'thain So... wheres the lynch mob to go after Evoke? Guess it's not fun when the target isn't BoB. I say we form a lynch mob to go after BoB anyway. You know, just because! +1!!! Sage advice, no doubt and I appreciate it, bud. I have to try (at least once), though. It's in my blood. So interesting the way EVE turns... "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:50:00 - [1014] Originally by: Allanah Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 ... If this has indeed been going on for 4 years as suggested by the SH forums and this eve-o post, then the whole market is completly ... i dont even know what to say. The market, the 0.0 mechanics, just about everything in the game would be VERY affected by this. This is bad... I can't see anything about reactors there. Only some 'pos exploits' were mentioned. That could have been everything and nothing. It says "the corp suffered from pos exploit". I can't see how the producing materials out of thing air makes a corp suffer in any way. Throwing some vague bit of story here and there together, ignoring the vast lack of background information and then twisting and bending it so that it fits into ones pre-occupied perception is not the right way to approach this matter. It is good to see that people started digging and found such posts like the linked one. I hope that CCP will investigate all this. CCP should do it right and that needs time, time to follow all those links and traces. So, give them the time! Keep digging! But be careful with incomplete information.
Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:50:00 - [1015] Originally by: Serrin Shamandar Er, sorry 'bout that - Blizzard to me usually means the Diablo and StarCraft franchises. I never really got in to Wow, and really don't know or want to know much about it. I'm aware that the framework in D2 imposed some limitations - but nothing says that you couldn't do a slower constantly running ruststorm that would probably shake and/or destroy the market rather than an hours long insanely resource intensive one that happened long after the market had glutted with cheap and easily available dupes. I could've sworn they had a system that would erase dupes detected in the same game... maybe I'm thinking of something else. Anyways, what remains is that hopefully CCP is capable (and willing) to track down and punish anyone involved in this exploit and not just those directly responsible. If they aren't...
Ryel Theon Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:51:00 - [1016] Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. You know you can't prove a negative, right? Sure you can, but that's not how it works in the real world. Innocent until proven guilty. You, sir, are either the greatest philosopher who ever lived or an idiot. I know which one my money is on.
SPIONKOP Caldari Warp Core Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:51:00 - [1017] Edited by: SPIONKOP on 11/12/2008 19:51:46 I am not sure if this has been raised, I read some pages but not reading them all. I would assume the accounts that did this were alts paid for by the huge amount of ISK at their disposal. The loss of which will not affect CCP's income, nor will it affect those that are responsible for this mess. The 4 non alliance corps must have been linked to an alliance. So all in all over 70 alts baned from the game, big deal. Question is will CCP trace the ISK. There is always a trail and this amount of ISK can be traced. I don't think CCP have the balls to take this as far as they should. I think they are scared of what they may find. It would be nice for those alliances implicated in this act to admit it and work on a solution. Sad thing is, most alliances are s****and care little for well being of the game. I suspect those high up the food chain are well insulated from this, even if their game time, titan and characters have been paid for by cheats. Chase the money, find them, remove their titans and moms and ban them. If any T2 BPO's have been bought by this ISK what will happen to them I wonder. --------------------------------------------- Space For Rent. 100mil ISK/Week.
bow locks UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:52:00 - [1018] Hi Meriones!!!! dfgsd
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:52:00 - [1019] Originally by: Gnulpie Keep digging! But be careful with incomplete information. I couldn't agree more. Much digging to still be done. I am actually quite interested to see what happens to the economy and the 0.0 dynamic. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:55:00 - [1020] Originally by: MyOwnSling From some of the unsubstantiated posts I have read, the offenders have apparently lost titans, poses, and of course all assets due to bans. Take that as you will. At the same time, by MM own admission, your alliance suffered losses because this exploit was being, well, exploited. We know that the offending corporations have suffered asset freezes, pos-removal, bannings, and the like. However. What we do not currently know is if these exploits contributed to super-capitals & outposts (which, in all likelihood, they did). I cannot help but wonder if some 0.0 wars have been won because of this exploit. If so, the alliances which were involved in one way or another with corporations using this exploit should have their full 0.0 SOV reset. We also do not know for sure the devastation CCP has caused when they reset the eve-market price histories for a number of various items. People have lost money due to an action CCP failed to announce in advance. Restitution is owed.

MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:55:00 - [1021] Originally by: Ryel Theon Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Can someone please prove that BoB did not exploit this, nor were they involved with this. You know you can't prove a negative, right? Sure you can, but that's not how it works in the real world. Innocent until proven guilty. You, sir, are either the greatest philosopher who ever lived or an idiot. I know which one my money is on. Care to point out my error? I am approaching it from a practical point of view, not philosophical. I can prove that you didn't do something with the proper information and tools. How can you argue otherwise? ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente Infinite Order	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:57:00 - [1022] Originally by: Nokkan Soth I would like to know how CCP ignored their petition 4 years ago about the problem, and then turns around and bans the accounts? Mind you im not involved but CCP has to take the blame on this exploit effeting the whole Eve economy and I just cant wait to see what happens n the nex t month now that these suppliers are gone. CCP not responding to the original submission of the bug that was reported to them condoned the actions of those players and what they were doing. But will CCP take the blame? I doubt it, but we shall see. I'm not gonna read thru 34 pages of comments, but 2c worth.... I wonder who was involved, lets see.... who are the biggest Alliances in the game..... fill in the blanks for yourselves... titans aint cheap, how is it that some people have so many.... I wonder..... did any CCP members used to be in any of these alliances.... was it a CCP member that ignored the initial petition 4 years ago.... fill in the blanks people.... cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Raith Dag'gar	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:58:00 - [1023] I say : "sell sell sell" to T2 stuff :p steer away from jita tonight :p
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 19:59:00 - [1024] Originally by: Solomon XI Originally by: MyOwnSling From some of the unsubstantiated posts I have read, the offenders have apparently lost titans, poses, and of course all assets due to bans. Take that as you will. At the same time, by MM own admission, your alliance suffered losses because this exploit was being, well, exploited. We know that the offending corporations have suffered asset freezes, pos-removal, bannings, and the like. However. What we do not currently know is if these exploits contributed to super-capitals & outposts (which, in all likelihood, they did). I cannot help but wonder if some 0.0 wars have been won because of this exploit. If so, the alliances which were involved in one way or another with corporations using this exploit should have their full 0.0 SOV reset. We also do not know for sure the devastation CCP has caused when they reset the eve-market price histories for a number of various items. People have lost money due to an action CCP failed to announce in advance. Restitution is owed. Honestly, I have heard no such admission, but that doesn't mean one does not exist. I really hope that's not the case, but if it is, oh well. I agree, restitution is most definitely owed. But how do you figure out who owes what and how much? I think that would be the biggest challenge. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Filthy Filthy Scum	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:00:00 - [1025] What happens to the T2 BPOs and stuff these guys had, will they be re-distributed into the game through plexes etc or are some mods to become uber rare now? *********************************** No-one does it dirtier**
C4w3 Minmatar Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:00:00 - [1026] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Allanah Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 ... If this has indeed been going on for 4 years as suggested by the SH forums and this eve-o post, then the whole market is completly ... i dont even know what to say. The market, the 0.0 mechanics, just about everything in the game would be VERY affected by this. This is bad... I can't see anything about reactors there. Only some 'pos exploits' were mentioned. That could have been everything and nothing. It says "the corp suffered from pos exploit". I can't see how the producing materials out of thing air makes a corp suffer in any way. Throwing some vague bit of story here and there together, ignoring the vast lack of background information and then twisting and bending it so that it fits into ones pre-occupied perception is not the right way to approach this matter. It is good to see that people started digging and found such posts like the linked one. I hope that CCP will investigate all this. CCP should do it right and that needs time, time to follow all those links and traces. So, give them the time! Keep digging! But be careful with incomplete information. Ill throw something at you.... the pilot wich made the post back then are same pilot banned today as his corp¦s ..... saga continues. ANGRY INTERNET GAMING MOBS IRL are bad MKAY!
Serrin Shamandar	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:01:00 - [1027] Originally by: Madius Originally by: Serrin Shamandar Er, sorry 'bout that - Blizzard to me usually means the Diablo and StarCraft franchises. I never really got in to Wow, and really don't know or want to know much about it. I'm aware that the framework in D2 imposed some limitations - but nothing says that you couldn't do a slower constantly running ruststorm that would probably shake and/or destroy the market rather than an hours long insanely resource intensive one that happened long after the market had glutted with cheap and easily available dupes. I could've sworn they had a system that would erase dupes detected in the same game... maybe I'm thinking of something else. Anyways, what remains is that hopefully CCP is capable (and willing) to track down and punish anyone involved in this exploit and not just those directly responsible. If they aren't... I almost hate to say it now, but a vast majority of the dupes created in D2 were created in the same battle.net game. That's what I found to be the most frustrating, from a technical standpoint anyway. Yeah, cheaters seriously irk me too. While I'm almost certain that a unique ID for every item is no doubt almost impossible from a technical standpoint just due to volume, I do think that a lot more could be done regarding dupes and ISK sales/buying from a technical/math theory standpoint. I would think the seriousness of the potential impact of either would definitely warrant it. Here's to hoping anyway! and progress! and hoping for progress, etc. lol.
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:02:00 - [1028] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Aramith Originally by: Mr Manufacture guys, guys Morsus Mihi find 135bn ISK a month to fuel over 400 POS, and they build 10 titans, cos they work really hard... its true... they mine all the veld in tribute and NPC there thats gives them the 2000 bn isk capfleet they have, and finds them all that ISK for POS fuelling its true, fluf told me so no exploiting in that alliance you know you can say the same thing about a number of alliances. I have heard that BoB has closer to 30 titans not the 15 or so listed in the "known Titans" thread in COAD. I am also sure they a large number of POS to support with fuel. Or what about AAA i mean they have atleast 11 titans and they claim space and are bound to have quite a few POS up and running as well. Are you just upset because you tried to get into a corp in morsus mihi and got rejected? Or did whatever corp/alliance your main belongs to get beat up on when they attacked/were attacked by MM? BoB have moon income which is off the scale. Do you have any idea how many high end moons and T2 BPO's they have? They've been rich for a very long time. Morsus Mihi however have had barely a handful of high-ends. There is NO OTHER ALLIANCE in the whole game who fuel the amount of POS they do, have 10+ titans, and free dreads/carriers to all members, and live in space as crappy as theirs. Not a single one. So don't come here and say 'that can apply to any number of alliances' because the truth is that it applies to NONE. Apart from MM. Because moon minerals are the only source of income in EVE...lol. Notwithstanding the complete falsehoods included in your posts, I'm sure if all you say is true, RAWR members will be outed and the guilty players will be banned. I sincerely and fervently hope that anyone who has committed this exploit is named and shamed, tarred and feathered. If RAWR members are found to be involved and it is shown that RAWR has directly benefited in some way from this exploit, I'll quit RAWR immediately rather than continue to be associated with such cheating and wholesale exploiting. I'm not alone, either. Something tells me I won't have to make this move, though. On the other hand, you could be full of cra...oh wai- "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:04:00 - [1029] Originally by: C4w3 Ill throw something at you.... the pilot wich made the post back then are same pilot banned today as his corp¦s ..... saga continues. What part of the isk printing machine was he suffering from and why was he frustrated when it wasn't solved?
Ukiah Gallente Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:04:00 - [1030] Originally by: Ima Alt Originally by: GuntiNDDS Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 11/12/2008 01:51:59 not only the domain market is missing numbers: Ferrogel market in sinq laison Yeah, they claim to be out of the office and unable to comment on the issue, but they have plenty of time to tamper with price histories. Also, lots of manpower availiable to lock all the threads in general except the one where all the fanboys and BoB pets come out to suck up. Badly done, chaps. Didn't the t20 thing ALSO play out in or around the holidays?

Klariso Troben Minmatar Vaportrail Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:05:00 - [1031] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: rValdez5987 I just wanted to add a bit of irony. In the real world money has literally disappeared with financial's and banking disappearing or otherwise going bankrupt. Now in eve, trillons of isk are supposedly gained through exploitation. Luckily for us, no matter what the situation is in the markets, there will always be a base income until CCP changes it. There will always be missions to run. Ah but don't you know? Mission running is bad. The 0.0 folks say that it causes an unwarranted influx of ISK into the game that distorts the economy. Ah. you sir/ma'am/it win
Graalum Interstellar eXodus Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:06:00 - [1032] Originally by: Aramith Originally by: Mr Manufacture BoB have moon income which is off the scale. Do you have any idea how many high end moons and T2 BPO's they have? They've been rich for a very long time. Morsus Mihi however have had barely a handful of high-ends. There is NO OTHER ALLIANCE in the whole game who fuel the amount of POS they do, have 10+ titans, and free dreads/carriers to all members, and live in space as crappy as theirs. Not a single one. So don't come here and say 'that can apply to any number of alliances' because the truth is that it applies to NONE. Apart from MM. oh yes tribute is a crap region. i gues 11+ systems with crockite (3 that also contain mercoxit and have atleast 18 belts) including one with 30+ belts is complete and total crap. not to mention the complexes mentioned earlier by an MM member (atleast one 10/10 and one 8/10). yeah that is a real crap region. If that is not good enough of a region for you then maybe your standards for what is a good region are a little too high. tribute is one of the worst regions in game, by comparison, delve and deklein, amoung others, have 40+ systems than spawn crockite, and tremendous numbers of highend moons.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:10:00 - [1033] Originally by: Orree Because moon minerals are the only source of income in EVE...lol. Notwithstanding the complete falsehoods included in your posts, I'm sure if all you say is true, RAWR members will be outed and the guilty players will be banned. I sincerely and fervently hope that anyone who has committed this exploit is named and shamed, tarred and feathered. If RAWR members are found to be involved and it is shown that RAWR has directly benefited in some way from this exploit, I'll quit RAWR immediately rather than continue to be associated with such cheating and wholesale exploiting. I'm not alone, either. Something tells me I won't have to make this move, though. On the other hand, you could be full of cra...oh wai- Well, I hope you've dropped your roles in preperation, because one of the banned chars has already implicated MM. It seems to have stemmed from G/TRUST/D2 and the breakaway corps and individuals seem to have taken this 'knowledge' right into Evoke, MH, MM...
Liu	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:11:00 - [1034] Originally by: Rethyl Originally by: Liu asuming the guy at SCH were telling the truth, if they petitioned it 4 years ago, and the answer was "it's not a bug", why would they have to be banned? If you find a wallet on the street and yell out "Hey, did someone lose a wallet?", and noone responds, and you then go and use their credit cards for 4 years before getting caught, why should the police bust you? what if the wallet only has money? using a credit card involves signing as another person, and that is a crime on itself. Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Ella Ment	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:11:00 - [1035] Originally by: SPIONKOP Edited by: SPIONKOP on 11/12/2008 19:51:46 I am not sure if this has been raised, I read some pages but not reading them all. I would assume the accounts that did this were alts paid for by the huge amount of ISK at their disposal. The loss of which will not affect CCP's income, nor will it affect those that are responsible for this mess. The 4 non alliance corps must have been linked to an alliance. So all in all over 70 alts baned from the game, big deal. Question is will CCP trace the ISK. There is always a trail and this amount of ISK can be traced. I don't think CCP have the balls to take this as far as they should. I think they are scared of what they may find. It would be nice for those alliances implicated in this act to admit it and work on a solution. Sad thing is, most alliances are s****and care little for well being of the game. I suspect those high up the food chain are well insulated from this, even if their game time, titan and characters have been paid for by cheats. Chase the money, find them, remove their titans and moms and ban them. If any T2 BPO's have been bought by this ISK what will happen to them I wonder. CCP will do very little, it would be inconsistent if they did. When the T20 incident blew up, all they did was remove some of the suspect BPOs, refused to investigate or reclaim any profits from those BPOs and related investment profits etc, refused (rightly/wrongly) to expose other CCP employees in said corp/alliance(and there were others) and investigate (publically) anything they also might have done.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:11:00 - [1036] About the update: they forgot to mention the names of corps and alliances, as if on purpose. We need to know who was involved, it's not like we are asking for their real world names and addresses. We also need to know how was the money spent. And we need to make sure that the non-alliance corps weren't simply alt-corps secretly sponsoring main alliances. Industrial alt-corps are very common.
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:12:00 - [1037] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: MyOwnSling I have neither seen nor heard anything to suggest this aside from your allegations. Not even a peep in alliance. FYI there is a reason your thread got locked. well, do feel free to tell us how the owners of Tribute can afford 135bn a month in POS fuel and a 2000bn isk cap fleet. we're all ears LOL...your facts are wrong and you want people to prove things based upon them. Get a grip. RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Even if we conservatively increase the per corp fuel cost in RAWR to 8 bn a month, we're looking at well less than HALF of what you're claiming is the gospel truth in monthly fuel costs. That doesn't even take into account that a few of our corps have very few towers up and yet I'm assuming a full share in my calculations. Back under the bridge, troll. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:14:00 - [1038] Originally by: Orree LOL...your facts are wrong and you want people to prove things based upon them. Get a grip. RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Even if we conservatively increase the per corp fuel cost in RAWR to 8 bn a month, we're looking at well less than HALF of what you're claiming is the gospel truth in monthly fuel costs. That doesn't even take into account that a few of our corps have very few towers up and yet I'm assuming a full share in my calculations. Back under the bridge, troll. and 10+ titans came out of thin air... oh wai...
Imperian hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:17:00 - [1039] Originally by: Mr Manufacture BoB have moon income which is off the scale. Do you have any idea how many high end moons and T2 BPO's they have? They've been rich for a very long time. Morsus Mihi however have had barely a handful of high-ends. There is NO OTHER ALLIANCE in the whole game who fuel the amount of POS they do, have 10+ titans, and free dreads/carriers to all members, and live in space as crappy as theirs. Not a single one. So don't come here and say 'that can apply to any number of alliances' because the truth is that it applies to NONE. Apart from MM. Please get a clue first what you are talking about. Throwing alliance-names into this discussion is not very constructive, especially when you have no clue about MM and Tribute and MM's income as you just have proven. Sometimes I wish all those forum-geeks would come into 0.0 so I have the opportunity to beat the livin hell out of them. Unbelievable. Jesus... RAWR
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:20:00 - [1040] Originally by: Deva Blackfire <snip> And when it comes to plexes: nu-uh. Tribute didnt have 8/10 nor 10/10. Closest 8/10 was in VENAL and it was farmed by RZR/MM/omen more-less same amount of time. Thus income from that plex for MM alone was pretty low. Another 8/10 was around KW-. This one was farmed by RZR (well actually me + lovekebab) and later was "given" to russkies so they could farm it. Last 8/10 in the area was in tenal-branch pathway and it was farmed by D2. When it comes to 10/10 there was one in aa- area (systems where razor have 3-4 outposts, sov4 and stuff) but almost noone did it - because at the time 10/10 plexes were MUCH harder (random respawns which pretty much locked down compy) and dropped crap (x-type loot but about 10% drop rate or less). This plex got fixed after my petitions (both loot and respawns) tho it was just before exploration kicked in and statics were removed. From "good" thingies in the area there was 6/10 plex 1 jump from EOY (tenal) but it was bugged and wasnt dropping loot. It got fixed at same time as 10/10 - just before exploration kicked in (or even at the same time). So no, when it comes to plexes tribute was crap - Tenal and Venal were goldmines. No idea how it is with moons, im not a moon miner. Wrong. Tribute had a static 10/10 (GIH-ZG) and there is still one that can be scanned down. As for the 8/10...I said they were nearby and we had access (just as you confirmed---thank you). One other thing of note...ours was never bugged nor was it ever accused of being bugged and exploited. Keep grinding. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli

Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:21:00 - [1041] Originally by: Filthy What happens to the T2 BPOs and stuff these guys had, will they be re-distributed into the game through plexes etc or are some mods to become uber rare now? Re open the lottery code and redistrubute the bpos, then throw the code back in the safe. BTW , people thought invention sucked for so long, now we may know a small part "why".
Reangorette Bianie	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:22:00 - [1042] "Money talks, b_s_ walks" that is the real life expression where I come from. Freely generated ISK not only distorts the power of alliances but also the economy of EVE in such a way that power shifts are only afforded to the "knowing" but not the "supid." If it has been Empire and say all bpos gave your trit back, then Empire would be the richest land in EVE. People who play the game for the economic aspects expect game mechanics to be such that what they infer from observation to be logically consistent with events, possibilities and human nature. Such "magical" creation is in the realm of other MMORPGs.
Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:22:00 - [1043] Originally by: Imperian Sometimes I wish all those forum-geeks would come into 0.0 so I have the opportunity to beat the livin hell out of them. Unbelievable. Jesus... That would probably explain us the numbers hes talking about wouldnt it? good point. or not. ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:22:00 - [1044] Originally by: Imperian Please get a clue first what you are talking about. Throwing alliance-names into this discussion is not very constructive, especially when you have no clue about MM and Tribute and MM's income as you just have proven. Sometimes I wish all those forum-geeks would come into 0.0 so I have the opportunity to beat the livin hell out of them. Unbelievable. Jesus... Here is what I know about Tribute: its a crap bit of space with few resources that can in no way even begin to support the bill for your POS fuel Here is what i know about MM: they own 10+ titans, hundreds of dreads, dozens of moms, trillions of ISK right there so you tell me, how exactly did an alliance with the worst real estate in eve outwardly become one of the wealthiest entities? I don't think we need an doctorate in economics to work that one out...
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:24:00 - [1045] Edited by: Valan on 11/12/2008 20:25:14 Originally by: Ella Ment CCP will do very little, it would be inconsistent if they did. When the T20 incident blew up, all they did was remove some of the suspect BPOs, refused to investigate or reclaim any profits from those BPOs and related investment profits etc, refused (rightly/wrongly) to expose other CCP employees in said corp/alliance(and there were others) and investigate (publically) anything they also might have done. CCP covered over the T20 thing months before it was discovered. Hence CCP created an internal affairs program which is being tested now. CCP can either add to the disasters in the past or put them right. What would you do now building up to a major retail release with a household name like Atari? It's not just credibility with the players on the line it's CCP's credibility as a leading brand on the line. This could hamper CCP growth, they have a good strong product and can try and break into the big time. If they fail they may not get another chance. Ambulation is a launch pad for a new dynamic lighting technology. The company that created it is using EVE as a flagship. You don't want any negative press when launching your star product. In my opinion this is bigger than a few disgruntled players. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Vire Amarr Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:25:00 - [1046] Edited by: Vire Amarr on 11/12/2008 20:26:01 Originally by: Imperian Originally by: Mr Manufacture BoB have moon income which is off the scale. Do you have any idea how many high end moons and T2 BPO's they have? They've been rich for a very long time. Morsus Mihi however have had barely a handful of high-ends. There is NO OTHER ALLIANCE in the whole game who fuel the amount of POS they do, have 10+ titans, and free dreads/carriers to all members, and live in space as crappy as theirs. Not a single one. So don't come here and say 'that can apply to any number of alliances' because the truth is that it applies to NONE. Apart from MM. Please get a clue first what you are talking about. Throwing alliance-names into this discussion is not very constructive, especially when you have no clue about MM and Tribute and MM's income as you just have proven. Sometimes I wish all those forum-geeks would come into 0.0 so I have the opportunity to beat the livin hell out of them. Unbelievable. Jesus... For ignorant people, it takes, 2 month with a team of 10 people to farm a Mothership and maybe 3 monnths for 25 people to farm a titan class ship. So please do not start to say most titan got created/possible using pos exploit because for many pilots of MS and titan it ment many hours of hard and not cool work just to get the money, not counting the energy needed to build them. I'm sure titan/ms producer/owner can confirm what kind of hard work it is. So please do not start saying that people rich enought to have Titan or MS are all cheaters ... because this is disrecptecfull for people that did hard work. Co-CEO Kernel Of War Vire Amarr Capital Inc Kernel Of War >> Faites face a votre avenir
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:25:00 - [1047] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Orree Because moon minerals are the only source of income in EVE...lol. Notwithstanding the complete falsehoods included in your posts, I'm sure if all you say is true, RAWR members will be outed and the guilty players will be banned. I sincerely and fervently hope that anyone who has committed this exploit is named and shamed, tarred and feathered. If RAWR members are found to be involved and it is shown that RAWR has directly benefited in some way from this exploit, I'll quit RAWR immediately rather than continue to be associated with such cheating and wholesale exploiting. I'm not alone, either. Something tells me I won't have to make this move, though. On the other hand, you could be full of cra...oh wai- Well, I hope you've dropped your roles in preperation, because one of the banned chars has already implicated MM. It seems to have stemmed from G/TRUST/D2 and the breakaway corps and individuals seem to have taken this 'knowledge' right into Evoke, MH, MM... lol...because such an "implication" is proof. You're only buying it because you want to. How about some proof of ANY of your assertions..let alone the last one you make in this message? Who took this "knowledge" right into "MM"? "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:27:00 - [1048] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Orree LOL...your facts are wrong and you want people to prove things based upon them. Get a grip. RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Even if we conservatively increase the per corp fuel cost in RAWR to 8 bn a month, we're looking at well less than HALF of what you're claiming is the gospel truth in monthly fuel costs. That doesn't even take into account that a few of our corps have very few towers up and yet I'm assuming a full share in my calculations. Back under the bridge, troll. and 10+ titans came out of thin air... oh wai... You're the one saying that. It's not my duty to prove YOUR nonsense. It's yours. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:28:00 - [1049] Originally by: Filthy What happens to the T2 BPOs and stuff these guys had, will they be re-distributed into the game through plexes etc or are some mods to become uber rare now? Simply: _gone_
Carrot Toss Caritas.	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:28:00 - [1050] Could it be? I heard some people like to free themselves of their chains. And anonynmity.

Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:29:00 - [1051] Originally by: Vire Amarr For ignorant people, it takes, 2 month with a team of 10 people to farm a Mothership and maybe 3 monnths for 25 people to farm a titan class ship. 2 weeks for 2 people (4 chars) to get mothership. Might be faster if you dont like to sleep, above is with 8-12h/day of gameplay.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:29:00 - [1052] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Imperian Please get a clue first what you are talking about. Throwing alliance-names into this discussion is not very constructive, especially when you have no clue about MM and Tribute and MM's income as you just have proven. Sometimes I wish all those forum-geeks would come into 0.0 so I have the opportunity to beat the livin hell out of them. Unbelievable. Jesus... Here is what I know about Tribute: its a crap bit of space with few resources that can in no way even begin to support the bill for your POS fuel Here is what i know about MM: they own 10+ titans, hundreds of dreads, dozens of moms, trillions of ISK right there so you tell me, how exactly did an alliance with the worst real estate in eve outwardly become one of the wealthiest entities? I don't think we need an doctorate in economics to work that one out... I'm quoting this, so I can rub it in his face later. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:30:00 - [1053] Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? -----------------------------------------
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:30:00 - [1054] Originally by: Orree LOL...your facts are wrong and you want people to prove things based upon them. Get a grip. No need to defend yourself against the trolls Orree, they will believe whatever they want. The banhammer came down pretty hard on ASW, seems the whole corp was effected. So if anyone thinks MM were involved, it wouldn't be too hard to notice an entire corp missing. Wishfull thinking and jealousy are not the same things as evidence.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:31:00 - [1055] Originally by: C4w3 Ill throw something at you.... the pilot wich made the post back then are same pilot banned today as his corp¦s ..... saga continues. No need to throw anything. The facts are known to me. But these information are all so incomplete and piecework. Of course the leader is in charge of all these things. And if pos' are buggy he cares about it. Do you really suggest that there was just only one bug and that is exactly that one mentioned? And why did he say "corp suffered from exploit". Why would his corp suffer from gaining products out of thin air? Sounds more like problems with pos shields, passwords or whatever than some exploit where you gain something out of nothing.
Cardinal Harvest	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:31:00 - [1056] For a pure simple reason of demented game experience and unfairly advantages gained by some *****s, i find myself not interested in this ty game as it is atm. Unless CCP comes with some valid actions (altho i dont know what they even could do now to "fix" this ), i will leave this game for very same reasons i left Blizzard games: They became greedy **s not caring about anything more than levels of fueling their bottomless pockets.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:32:00 - [1057] Originally by: Vigilant Originally by: Filthy What happens to the T2 BPOs and stuff these guys had, will they be re-distributed into the game through plexes etc or are some mods to become uber rare now? Re open the lottery code and redistrubute the bpos, then throw the code back in the safe. BTW , people thought invention sucked for so long, now we may know a small part "why". While I agree with the redistribution of the T2 BPOs in question, the flooding of cheap advanced materials into the market made invention more profitable.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:33:00 - [1058] Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? 450
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:34:00 - [1059] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? 450 Well he said 6.5B was his corp's share. I don't want to assume that every corp has an equal share. -----------------------------------------
Schwermetall Bad Passion	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:35:00 - [1060] Ze Germans! /o\ ______________________

Ryel Theon Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:36:00 - [1061] Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon You know you can't prove a negative, right? Sure you can, but that's not how it works in the real world. Innocent until proven guilty. You, sir, are either the greatest philosopher who ever lived or an idiot. I know which one my money is on. Care to point out my error? I am approaching it from a practical point of view, not philosophical. I can prove that you didn't do something with the proper information and tools. How can you argue otherwise? Go look up 'negative proof' in wikipedia.
Carnal Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:36:00 - [1062] Originally by: Orree Because moon minerals are the only source of income in EVE...lol. Because about 75% of eve economics in the high end of the community (0.0) is based on T2 Try to comprehend economics and you will understand what eve is all about
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:36:00 - [1063] Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? 450 Well he said 6.5B was his corp's share. I don't want to assume that every corp has an equal share. anyone who has even casually scanned Tribute and MM's lowsec reaction POS will know his figure is pure BS in terms of their total pos fuel bill we are talking HUNDREDS of POS and thats easy to verify right now with a cov ops and a few clicks on the scanner
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:37:00 - [1064] Originally by: Schwermetall Ze Germans! /o\ [agressive German accent]Victory belongs to GERMANY![/agressive German accent] Oh wait, wrong game...
Garald X'ordian Caldari Censured Mind	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:38:00 - [1065] Edited by: Garald X''ordian on 11/12/2008 20:38:47 So... When do we get the H i t l e r Bunker video about this topic?
Jose Jimenez Caldari Nayashimi Natuki	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:39:00 - [1066] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? 450 To this guy that is trolling and is spreading lies outward about MM and has either been recently wtfpwnd by them ingame or a pretty bitter person / probably both / and who just wanted to take this opportunity and accuse without any evidence whatsoever, one of the most respectable alliance ingame: Do not worry, CCP will ban you for posting unfounded and untruthfull accusations in a thread that is meant to actually shed some light on the subject of this exploit. If you knew any of the corp and ppl in MM there is no way you would ever accuse of exploiting or stealing anything. IF you are jealous about their ashievemnts ingame it is another matter but I suspect, since MM leader is CSM chairman CCP will FOR ONCE come out clean in all this and name names and alliances responsible with a detailed explanation. In the mean time you can troll as much as you want. cheers
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:39:00 - [1067] Originally by: C4w3 Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 ... I can't see anything about reactors there. Only some 'pos exploits' were mentioned. That could have been everything and nothing. It says "the corp suffered from pos exploit". I can't see how the producing materials out of thing air makes a corp suffer in any way. Throwing some vague bit of story here and there together, ignoring the vast lack of background information and then twisting and bending it so that it fits into ones pre-occupied perception is not the right way to approach this matter. It is good to see that people started digging and found such posts like the linked one. I hope that CCP will investigate all this. CCP should do it right and that needs time, time to follow all those links and traces. So, give them the time! Keep digging! But be careful with incomplete information. Ill throw something at you.... the pilot wich made the post back then are same pilot banned today as his corp¦s ..... saga continues. So you searched for anything with POS exploit and a member of Ev0ke? From the contest, time and petitions argument (ship reimbursement) he was speaking of the bug where it was possible to fire against a ship within a POS bubble. So nice work creating a story from thin air.
hypno toad Arachno Spores	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:40:00 - [1068] well another scandal , oh well eve goes on! random acusations at corps and alliances (MM) is so stupid. if i were a multi millionaire in real life i would prolly have been buying and selling GTC for the 3/4 years i been playing. how many titans would i have then ? How many corps/alliances would i have in my pocket ? the game can be easily influenced within the rules so something like this is pointless worrying about in isk terms , just that ccp didnt spot it sooner. Which is unfortunate. p.s CCP should buy all t2 bpo's off the chars that have them and destroy them so things are even
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:40:00 - [1069] OMFG I just got done reading this and the SHC threads....... I can't believe this has gone on for as long as it has. I'm very curious to see what the end result of this will be.... I wonder if the good doctor will give us a no-BS assessment of the past and future effect this will have on the economy. TBQH, the intergrity of the in game market is now nill..... I hope CCP monitors the situation very closely to keep market forces rushing to fill the void don't destroy EVE's economy as a whole -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:40:00 - [1070] http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/D.M.T_inc

Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:41:00 - [1071] Originally by: Jose Jimenez Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? 450 To this guy that is trolling and is spreading lies outward about MM and has either been recently wtfpwnd by them ingame or a pretty bitter person / probably both / and who just wanted to take this opportunity and accuse without any evidence whatsoever, one of the most respectable alliance ingame: Do not worry, CCP will ban you for posting unfounded and untruthfull accusations in a thread that is meant to actually shed some light on the subject of this exploit. If you knew any of the corp and ppl in MM there is no way you would ever accuse of exploiting or stealing anything. IF you are jealous about their ashievemnts ingame it is another matter but I suspect, since MM leader is CSM chairman CCP will FOR ONCE come out clean in all this and name names and alliances responsible with a detailed explanation. In the mean time you can troll as much as you want. cheers I provided a broadly accurate count of the total number of POS run by that alliance. Do feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:44:00 - [1072] Originally by: Mr Manufacture anyone who has even casually scanned Tribute and MM's lowsec reaction POS will know his figure is pure BS in terms of their total pos fuel bill we are talking HUNDREDS of POS and thats easy to verify right now with a cov ops and a few clicks on the scanner By all means post screenshots if you think you can. Right now you're just talking out your ass with no proof.
Jelek Coro Caldari Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:44:00 - [1073] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: C4w3 Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: C4w3 GOD blees Chribbster and eve-search, And if this is TRUE! Shame on you CCP! and Expose the moneyprinting four!!! taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 ... I can't see anything about reactors there. Only some 'pos exploits' were mentioned. That could have been everything and nothing. It says "the corp suffered from pos exploit". I can't see how the producing materials out of thing air makes a corp suffer in any way. Throwing some vague bit of story here and there together, ignoring the vast lack of background information and then twisting and bending it so that it fits into ones pre-occupied perception is not the right way to approach this matter. It is good to see that people started digging and found such posts like the linked one. I hope that CCP will investigate all this. CCP should do it right and that needs time, time to follow all those links and traces. So, give them the time! Keep digging! But be careful with incomplete information. Ill throw something at you.... the pilot wich made the post back then are same pilot banned today as his corp¦s ..... saga continues. So you searched for anything with POS exploit and a member of Ev0ke? From the contest, time and petitions argument (ship reimbursement) he was speaking of the bug where it was possible to fire against a ship within a POS bubble. So nice work creating a story from thin air. I would stop digging yourself a hole. The CEO on the banned corp in Evoke has said he (they) did it from when it was posted back in 2005. Read kug's site where he can be found (since he cannot post here anymore). Evoke now carry the label of exploiters. Burn them!!!!!!
Disteeler Segunda Fundacion INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:44:00 - [1074] CCP is wording the news as if the bug was there for very little time, when it may have been there for years. I don't like this attitude a bit.
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:45:00 - [1075] Mr Manufacturer if you have proof post otherwise stop posting complete sh*t with a ALT. At least grow a pair and use your main. (There I go again defending another alliance, WTF over!)
Atropos Kahn Caldari Solarflare Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:46:00 - [1076] Epic meta gaming for the win.... can I have all their stuffs...
Driftspite	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:46:00 - [1077] Mr Manufacture Do you not understand that MM has (on paper) 2470 members. The combined efforts of these (guessing about 500-1500 active) people is something your sad, jealous mind cannot understand. They work together to build lots of big ships just like all the other 0.0 alliances. Get over it m8.
batmoth Amarr Cardinal Armada Razakel.	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:47:00 - [1078] Originally by: Gamer4liff Any hope of bailing out failing T2 producers because of the new higher build costs? Yeah its called re-adjusting your prices to meat the increase
Caramena	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:47:00 - [1079] So in the end the PowerBlocks remain the same or what?
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:47:00 - [1080] Now that I think of it, where the hell is my free Titan??? ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy

Jonas Vinthyn Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:47:00 - [1081] Originally by: chrisss0r http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/D.M.T_inc Look at in game...36 members and in another alliance. As for all the other calls CCP does need to put the names out there ASAP. All this hiding crap makes me wonder how much more is rigged. My POS - POS Fitting and Fuel Calc Stats!
Caramena	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:48:00 - [1082] Originally by: Ranger 1 Now that I think of it, where the hell is my free Titan??? Now indeed, it's in your pants, bend over and i'll push it out for ya!
Crackuji	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:48:00 - [1083] Originally by: Disteeler CCP is wording the news as if the bug was there for very little time, when it may have been there for years. I don't like this attitude a bit. By the sounds of it on other forums, this has been reported numerous times yet nothing was ever done. Just WTF
Karla Kay	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:48:00 - [1084] A banned person is opening up on another forum about it all.... confirmed it was 4 yrs at least and more info to come...
Buur	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:49:00 - [1085] Edited by: Buur on 11/12/2008 20:53:27 For me personally, I don't really care about the players involved. If I found a bug and could make billions then hell yeh. For CCP to know about this for 4 years and not lift a finger, well thats totally unacceptable - I pay them for a service. Many people including myself have lost small fortunes to fights against these people, this is a loss to an exploit they permitted for 4 years. Some people will have bought GTC's to pay for things lost, thats now real money lost to an exploit they permitted for 4 years. I also bet most of these people haven't actually paid for their accounts over this time either, so effetivly we have.. for 4 years. This is the 3rd big "scandal" I've heard about now, my trust in CCP is running very thin. I have no idea how they intend to fix THERE (CCP's) F'up but I will certainly be cancelling both accounts if its not either very well documented or to a good enough standard. I feel like I have wasted a few years of my spare time and money right now... and have never felt so short changed or disrespected by an MMO or company.
Jana rockefeller	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:49:00 - [1086] Quote "if i were a multi millionaire in real life i would prolly have been buying and selling GTC for the 3/4 years i been playing." What if these POS operators were buying GTC's with their ill-gotten gains and selling them for RL $$???? that busts the whole GTC system wide open! geez....im dreading to think whats gonna happen in the next few days. I already see disbanded corps with 0 members on DOTLAN...
Ella Ment	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:50:00 - [1087] Originally by: Valan Edited by: Valan on 11/12/2008 20:25:14 CCP covered over the T20 thing months before it was discovered. Hence CCP created an internal affairs program which is being tested now. CCP can either add to the disasters in the past or put them right. What would you do now building up to a major retail release with a household name like Atari? It's not just credibility with the players on the line it's CCP's credibility as a leading brand on the line. This could hamper CCP growth, they have a good strong product and can try and break into the big time. If they fail they may not get another chance. Ambulation is a launch pad for a new dynamic lighting technology. The company that created it is using EVE as a flagship. You don't want any negative press when launching your star product. In my opinion this is bigger than a few disgruntled players. Pretty much. The T20 incident and coverup reflects on the people within CCP and their relative trustworthyness or lack there of, whichever way you look at it, the publicity worked in their favour (EVE is a game popular with those who want to scam, cheat and kill others, the fact that the people running it also like to do that is and will remain an attraction) The new issue is quite different, it will play out as a test of CCP as a company and the way it responds to problems/publicity, they are not playing to the masses, they have to play to other corporate figures, should be interesting
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:51:00 - [1088] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 11/12/2008 20:52:49 Originally by: batmoth Edited by: batmoth on 11/12/2008 20:46:49 Originally by: Gamer4liff Any hope of bailing out failing T2 producers because of the new higher build costs? Yeah its called re-adjusting your prices to meet the increase As I have said many times before it's not that simple, people are feeble minded, weak, and moronic when it comes to setting prices, prices can only change when almost all of the product is off the market, and somebody gets the balls to raise it. Which isn't often in low-demand T2 markets.
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:51:00 - [1089] Originally by: Jana rockefeller Quote "if i were a multi millionaire in real life i would prolly have been buying and selling GTC for the 3/4 years i been playing." What if these POS operators were buying GTC's with their ill-gotten gains and selling them for RL $$???? that busts the whole GTC system wide open! geez....im dreading to think whats gonna happen in the next few days. I already see disbanded corps with 0 members on DOTLAN... Well that's what David Lee Roth is doing in EVE for the past 4 years, Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a yacht big enough to pull up right alongside it with GTC's
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:52:00 - [1090] Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli

Madius	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:54:00 - [1091] Originally by: Ella Ment Pretty much. The T20 incident and coverup reflects on the people within CCP and their relative trustworthyness or lack there of, whichever way you look at it, the publicity worked in their favour (EVE is a game popular with those who want to scam, cheat and kill others, the fact that the people running it also like to do that is and will remain an attraction) The new issue is quite different, it will play out as a test of CCP as a company and the way it responds to problems/publicity, they are not playing to the masses, they have to play to other corporate figures, should be interesting There is a clear line between scamming and cheating people within the framework of the game, and using an unintended technical oversight to create god-knows-how-much ISK worth of goods. It's like the difference between bluffing someone successfully in a card game, and hiding cards up your sleeve.
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:55:00 - [1092] Originally by: Mr Manufacture <snip> I provided a broadly accurate count of the total number of POS run by that alliance. Do feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I have been. "broadly accurate." Did you actually just say that? Please prove all "450" (not even agreeing there ARE that many) are online and thus require fuel. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Carnal Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:56:00 - [1093] Originally by: Orree Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. So you are defending yourselve with the logs of CCP... mind you, you can say what you want... you'll hang if CCP wants you to. _period_
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:56:00 - [1094] Edited by: Mr Manufacture on 11/12/2008 20:56:13 Originally by: Orree Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. just...lol do you know how much it costs to fuel one large POS? according to you MM own a total of approx 15 large pos based on those numbers i dont think so... in other news: this had been confirmed by an Evoke director as having been a bug since 2004
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:57:00 - [1095] Originally by: Ranger 1 Now that I think of it, where the hell is my free Titan??? Really...I even had to buy my own Amarr titan skillbook. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Karla Kay	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:57:00 - [1096] Can you two get a ****ing room.
Charles Jameson Caldari StarShip Earth Technologies New Eden Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:58:00 - [1097] To address this there is a simple solution. Hire a secret 3rd party company to watchdog the goings on of EVE. Like secret police. They would sign contracts stating that they do not or will ever play the game. Then given the ability to log on with a client and follow characters around and also listen in on any chat channel and be able to use the client they have to provide proof to ccp the csm and the players exactly whats going on then exploits/macros/hackers would be caught faster and the end result would be greater game play for the general public and also would guarantee that these types of things wouldnt happen again and therefore be able to put trust back into eve and ccp. Thanks for the rant time. Charles
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:58:00 - [1098] CCP, I urge full disclosure of this incident. Your reputation for 'fair play' is growing more tarnished every time a new scandal comes to light. If you're going to help some players (or look the other way when they cheat, which amounts to the same thing) while making others work to gain anything... well, why play anymore? People are talking on your own forums right now, and you're not responding. How long before discussion, meeting a brick wall here, spills out into a more public venue? If the accusations are true, CCP is developing a reputation for running 'crooked games'. This would hurt not only Eve, but also future projects.
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 20:59:00 - [1099] Originally by: Carnal Knowledge Originally by: Orree Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. So you are defending yourselve with the logs of CCP... mind you, you can say what you want... you'll hang if CCP wants you to. _period_ Care to explain what you mean? I'm defending RAWR (not myself) with facts. Full stop. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Mojo Lux Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:02:00 - [1100] Wow, this thread delivers. So it would appear that some folks tripped over the effects of poorly written code and decided to make mountains of ISK from it. Well after the fact CCP learns of this, not from their own efforts as one might hope, but from a player. You can just picture the sceen at CCP...somewhere in Iceland there was a manager or maybe a director knocking on a VP's door with "Ummm boss, we've got a little problem..." About an hour after that some very senior people at CCP were staring at the walls of their offices, or had their heads in their hands while thinking "OMG, this is going to just suck" or "I wonder if this kind of crap happens to Blizzard?", "I should have been a dentist". This is only going to get better. Time to stock up on popcorn!

Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:03:00 - [1101] Quote: How come this wasn't spotted earlier, for example by your much-vaunted economist? you've got to be kidding. The answer to this caustic question is obvious. He wasn't looking for it. ..and why should he have. There are plenty of other things for him to look at especially in light of recent changes to the game. He had no reason to suspect there was a problem there especially if you didn't petition this 4 years ago. =====
Jose Jimenez Caldari Nayashimi Natuki	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:04:00 - [1102] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Edited by: Mr Manufacture on 11/12/2008 20:56:13 Originally by: Orree Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. just...lol do you know how much it costs to fuel one large POS? according to you MM own a total of approx 15 large pos based on those numbers i dont think so... in other news: this had been confirmed by an Evoke director as having been a bug since 2004 Whose ever alliance alt you are, you are a sad little man, and no amount of lies,accusations, false staments you make on these forums will take away the fact that you are jsut a silly little lying troll with 0 achievements in game. Wanna take a bet if any operations,titan, pos or member of the alliance you are lying about was funded by this? Wanna put up 10-20B in it? count me in against your bet if you have anything except big mouth to support these lies you make and relax kiddo, you are way to much stressed about being beaten by mm ingame.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:06:00 - [1103] Originally by: Jose Jimenez Whose ever alliance alt you are, you are a sad little man, and no amount of lies,accusations, false staments you make on these forums will take away the fact that you are jsut a silly little lying troll with 0 achievements in game. Wanna take a bet if any operations,titan, pos or member of the alliance you are lying about was funded by this? Wanna put up 10-20B in it? count me in against your bet if you have anything except big mouth to support these lies you make and relax kiddo, you are way to much stressed about being beaten by mm ingame. erm, accusations cannot be lies... the most they can be is incorrect and.. as for the evoke director... go read SHC and weep
Athos Zel'tar Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:07:00 - [1104] Does anyone actually have any proof that BoB, MM, TRI, or any others have actually used this exploit? I'm all for public executions and everything, but I would at least like to know I'm hanging the right person first
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:08:00 - [1105] http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showpost.php?p=282164&postcount=187 Originally by: Baumi Aber es hat mich eh gewundert das es so lange nicht rausgekommen ist, sogar ich wei¯ seit nber nem Jahr das das geht Originally by: Translation But it surprised me it wasn't disclosed for so long, even I have known for over a year that it (the Pos exploit) is possible Corp: Free Space Ranger - Morsus Mihi [/code]
Ella Ment	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:10:00 - [1106] Originally by: Madius There is a clear line between scamming and cheating people within the framework of the game, and using an unintended technical oversight to create god-knows-how-much ISK worth of goods. It's like the difference between bluffing someone successfully in a card game, and hiding cards up your sleeve. No, not in EVE, you either wear blinkers or you dont wander the different halls of these here forums (and other forums). Exploits are 'not' exploits until CCP says they are is the oft used defense (oblivious to what 'some' might call common sense). There are examples all through EVE's history, small and large, some classed as game play one moment, classed as a dire exploits another. CCP has never been consistant, mainly due to the 'player' within.
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:11:00 - [1107] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Edited by: Mr Manufacture on 11/12/2008 20:56:13 Originally by: Orree Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. just...lol do you know how much it costs to fuel one large POS? according to you MM own a total of approx 15 large pos based on those numbers i dont think so... in other news: this had been confirmed by an Evoke director as having been a bug since 2004 Why yes, I do. Between 75-100m for a large tower, depending upon how fitted, in sov 1+ (where the vast majority of our towers are located). We have 55 large towers in total. I have granted for the sake of argument 8bn on average for each sov-claiming RAWR corp. Using your approved method of "broadly accurate" estimation, I have proven that your assertion that RAWR spends 135bn a month of fuel to be complete nonsense. Then there's your assertion that we have "hundreds" of dreads. We don't have that many and I'd say a good half are probably personally owned (mine are). It's clear you're just a troll and I'm finished feeding you. If anyone has any questions they'd like to ask me directly, send an EVE mail. I'll respond when I can. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
hypno toad Arachno Spores	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:11:00 - [1108] Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a yacht big enough to pull up right alongside it with GTC's never a truer word spoken.
Lady Oracle	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:12:00 - [1109] This thread is reminding me of CAOD, with some of the accusations tossed about.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:12:00 - [1110] Originally by: GuntiNDDS http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showpost.php?p=282164&postcount=187 Originally by: Baumi Aber es hat mich eh gewundert das es so lange nicht rausgekommen ist, sogar ich wei¯ seit nber nem Jahr das das geht Originally by: Translation But it surprised me it wasn't disclosed for so long, even I have known for over a year that it (the Pos exploit) is possible Corp: Free Space Ranger - Morsus Mihi [/code] ker-ching hate to say I told you so...

Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:13:00 - [1111] Originally by: Orree Why yes, I do. Between 75-100m for a large tower, depending upon how fitted, in sov 1+ (where the vast majority of our towers are located). We have 55 large towers in total. I think you're confusing the cost per week, with the cost per month... doh
Sebastien LeReparteur Minmatar Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:14:00 - [1112] Can I get their stuff???
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:14:00 - [1113] This brief interlude because I care about Orree's sanity Originally by: Mr Manufacture Unsubstantiated and uninformed accusations by an anonymous alt An alt: http://www.eve-search.com/search/author/Mr%20Manufacture/page/4 Who posted this: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/488235 (A chatlog between the character 'O Thief' and the character 'crazy bear' in which 'O Thief' gets scammed out of a t2 BPO) Further on in the thread our (now less) anonymous alt posts this: Originally by: Mr Manufacture ... I mean, I accept just about everything thrown my way, but drawn the line at losing out on a technicality of which I was unaware and not warned by the auction system. So who is O Thief, could it possibly be someone with a grudge aginst RAWR? http://www.eve-search.com/history/O%20Thief Quote: 2008-01-25 11:14:00 O Thief The Littlest Hobos Insurgency Another one of those (minority) of Insurgency members who let down the alliance. Say hello to Butter Dog for me please O Thief. You must know him well since your employment histories are so similar. Now I feel dirty and must shower. Thankyou once again Chribba. _
Comrade Fox Birth Control Defects	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:14:00 - [1114] Where was this gigantic, fascist ban-hammer when Band of Brothers was blatantly cheating. From what I understand, most parties involved in those incidents are still playing. I have a few questions I'd like answered by CCP about the current 'crisis': 1.What level of involvement in the corporate use of the exploit levied the bans? 2.Was there any consideration at all, or was the ban-hammer the only option on the table for every corp-member weather involved in the exploit or not. 4. Has CCP considered the chance that there were legitimate spy-alts in the banned corporations (also not benefiting from the corporation's exploits) who had their main and other accounts banned. 4. Not all members of a corporation have access to corp hangars or stations, not at all benefiting from this exploit, and had ALL their accounts banned, and some not even aware of the actions of others in their corp. Under what circumstances would CCP reinstate these accounts? 5.Granted, this exploit wasn't exactly a secret, but corporation members with lesser roles often do not have access to off-site message boards or mailing lists where most corporations conduct private business, and so would not/could not know there was exploiting. Did CCP attempt to inform the affected accounts that their corporations were exploiting? Thank you, Fox
Julian Grey Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:14:00 - [1115] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: GuntiNDDS http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showpost.php?p=282164&postcount=187 Originally by: Baumi Aber es hat mich eh gewundert das es so lange nicht rausgekommen ist, sogar ich wei¯ seit nber nem Jahr das das geht Originally by: Translation But it surprised me it wasn't disclosed for so long, even I have known for over a year that it (the Pos exploit) is possible Corp: Free Space Ranger - Morsus Mihi [/code] ker-ching hate to say I told you so... If you're implying Baumi has exploited, how come he is still active and in FSR.....and how come FSR is still active MM has very few member corps....so if one of those corps got caught cheating, it would be common knowledge in no time at all.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:15:00 - [1116] Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 11/12/2008 21:17:09 Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 11/12/2008 21:15:33 Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: GuntiNDDS http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showpost.php?p=282164&postcount=187 Originally by: Baumi Aber es hat mich eh gewundert das es so lange nicht rausgekommen ist, sogar ich wei¯ seit nber nem Jahr das das geht Originally by: Translation But it surprised me it wasn't disclosed for so long, even I have known for over a year that it (the Pos exploit) is possible Corp: Free Space Ranger - Morsus Mihi [/code] ker-ching hate to say I told you so... you just got trolled http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eve-online.de%2Fforum%2Fshowpost.php%3Fp%3D282164%26postcount%3D187&sl=de&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 I think... online translators anyone speak German?
Julian Grey Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:16:00 - [1117] Originally by: Blazde This brief interlude because I care about Orree's sanity Originally by: Mr Manufacture Unsubstantiated and uninformed accusations by an anonymous alt An alt: http://www.eve-search.com/search/author/Mr%20Manufacture/page/4 Who posted this: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/488235 (A chatlog between the character 'O Thief' and the character 'crazy bear' in which 'O Thief' gets scammed out of a t2 BPO) Further on in the thread our (now less) anonymous alt posts this: Originally by: Mr Manufacture ... I mean, I accept just about everything thrown my way, but drawn the line at losing out on a technicality of which I was unaware and not warned by the auction system. So who is O Thief, could it possibly be someone with a grudge aginst RAWR? http://www.eve-search.com/history/O%20Thief Quote: 2008-01-25 11:14:00 O Thief The Littlest Hobos Insurgency Another one of those (minority) of Insurgency members who let down the alliance. Say hello to Butter Dog for me please O Thief. You must know him well since your employment histories are so similar. Now I feel dirty and must shower. Thankyou once again Chribba. LOL Bitterdog got PWNED !!!!
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:17:00 - [1118] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 11/12/2008 21:15:33 Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: GuntiNDDS http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showpost.php?p=282164&postcount=187 Originally by: Baumi Aber es hat mich eh gewundert das es so lange nicht rausgekommen ist, sogar ich wei¯ seit nber nem Jahr das das geht Originally by: Translation But it surprised me it wasn't disclosed for so long, even I have known for over a year that it (the Pos exploit) is possible Corp: Free Space Ranger - Morsus Mihi [/code] ker-ching hate to say I told you so... you just got trolled http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eve-online.de%2Fforum%2Fshowpost.php%3Fp%3D282164%26postcount%3D187&sl=de&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 and you just relied on internet translation, which is always accurate
Kitt JT	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:18:00 - [1119] I haven't been able to log in for a couple days now. Nothing on my pc has changed, and im pretty sure my internet's working (im posting here) Really hope they didnt mistake an account name or something :P seriously though. i dont know, i think T2 stuff should cost a lot more than it does right now, i mean most meta 4 things are like 2-10x more expensive than the T2 items. Dont think it should work like that. I personally wouldnt mind banning those people, and leaving the economy ALONE.
Renfrew Shrufan Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:18:00 - [1120] Originally by: Lady Oracle This thread is reminding me of CAOD, with some of the accusations tossed about. No kidding, why hasn't this thread been locked for uselessness yet?

Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:19:00 - [1121] On the lighter side of things, I just had this vision of a CCP Janitor dusting off the origional Eve Server, plugging in a backup from a few years ago, and wandering the Eve Universe as it was trapped in time. No players, just a bored Janitor chomping on his lunch while roaming from system to system looking for exploit towers. Naming and Shaming individuals with irrefutable proof. I'd pay to be able to play that game.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:19:00 - [1122] Originally by: Julian Grey Originally by: Blazde This brief interlude because I care about Orree's sanity Originally by: Mr Manufacture Unsubstantiated and uninformed accusations by an anonymous alt An alt: http://www.eve-search.com/search/author/Mr%20Manufacture/page/4 Who posted this: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/488235 (A chatlog between the character 'O Thief' and the character 'crazy bear' in which 'O Thief' gets scammed out of a t2 BPO) Further on in the thread our (now less) anonymous alt posts this: Originally by: Mr Manufacture ... I mean, I accept just about everything thrown my way, but drawn the line at losing out on a technicality of which I was unaware and not warned by the auction system. So who is O Thief, could it possibly be someone with a grudge aginst RAWR? http://www.eve-search.com/history/O%20Thief Quote: 2008-01-25 11:14:00 O Thief The Littlest Hobos Insurgency Another one of those (minority) of Insurgency members who let down the alliance. Say hello to Butter Dog for me please O Thief. You must know him well since your employment histories are so similar. Now I feel dirty and must shower. Thankyou once again Chribba. LOL Bitterdog got PWNED !!!! oh please, that tard isnt even subbed
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:20:00 - [1123] Originally by: Jose Jimenez Wanna take a bet if any operations,titan, pos or member of the alliance you are lying about was funded by this? Wanna put up 10-20B in it? count me in against your bet if you have anything except big mouth to support these lies you make and relax kiddo, you are way to much stressed about being beaten by mm ingame. I'd take up your bet How many billions shall we go into?
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:20:00 - [1124] Originally by: Jana rockefeller Quote "if i were a multi millionaire in real life i would prolly have been buying and selling GTC for the 3/4 years i been playing." What if these POS operators were buying GTC's with their ill-gotten gains and selling them for RL $$???? that busts the whole GTC system wide open! geez....im dreading to think whats gonna happen in the next few days. I already see disbanded corps with 0 members on DOTLAN... What is DOTLAN? Could you please list the disbanded corps? Thanks
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari Quicksilver Industries and Painful Effects Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:21:00 - [1125] MY SINGLE QUESTION IS THIS. Why should I keep playing this game, when after 3 years I actually had to work to earn my keep, while others were just allowed to do it the easy way? Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:22:00 - [1126] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Orree Why yes, I do. Between 75-100m for a large tower, depending upon how fitted, in sov 1+ (where the vast majority of our towers are located). We have 55 large towers in total. I think you're confusing the cost per week, with the cost per month... doh Erm no? Fuel for a large pos costs around 250k isk per hour. That is roughly 6 mil per day, that is 180 mil per month. If you have sources for cheap isotopes/ozone then the costs are reduced a lot. Also sov gives you some fuel bonus.
Felix Underwood	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:22:00 - [1127] All this speculation and finger pointing is a waste of time. CCP should jump in and give a list of everything they know as of now and continue to update their customers what they are doing about. The information they have given thus far is so vague it breeds speculation, and distrust with their customers. What are they trying to protect? It seems like the t2 bpo problem from years ago. Oh btw what happened to the bpo's that were handed out?
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:22:00 - [1128] Originally by: Mojo Lux Wow, this thread delivers. So it would appear that some folks tripped over the effects of poorly written code and decided to make mountains of ISK from it. Well after the fact CCP learns of this, not from their own efforts as one might hope, but from a player. You can just picture the sceen at CCP...somewhere in Iceland there was a manager or maybe a director knocking on a VP's door with "Ummm boss, we've got a little problem..." About an hour after that some very senior people at CCP were staring at the walls of their offices, or had their heads in their hands while thinking "OMG, this is going to just suck" or "I wonder if this kind of crap happens to Blizzard?", "I should have been a dentist". This is only going to get better. Time to stock up on popcorn! No.. I assume there will be just a single sentence in that room. Moar Beer ? Just a sidenote, I checked in the quarterly economic newsletter, the average net growth of available money (isk faucets - sinks) in the 3rd quarter of 07 was about 170 billion / isk day, with an average daily trade volume of 2.1 trillion isk. What numbers would merit the statistics & research teams assessment that the "effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching" ? I know .. patience.. but I am to damn curious :)
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:25:00 - [1129] Originally by: Comrade Fox Where was this gigantic, fascist ban-hammer when Band of Brothers was blatantly cheating. From what I understand, most parties involved in those incidents are still playing. I have a few questions I'd like answered by CCP about the current 'crisis': Thank you, Fox Sometimes group punishement is required to maintain social order, especially, when one relies on self report as a major portion of your crime control. So I don't see this as fascist. The purpose of punishment is not only the justice aspect to punish the guilty, but also the deterent factor to the might want to do it in the future.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:26:00 - [1130] Originally by: CommmanderInChief Well its great to see the 'holier than thou' comments in this thread. Cmon seriously if you would of known about this you would of done it yourselves, without the slightest consideration for the 'market' or anything else, except lining your own pockets.. Now is it exploit? Well no not at all - you are use the game mechanics to your advantage. If its anyones fault then its CCPs for developing it that way, I mean for god sake they people who did it even sent a petition to CCP!! CCP did nothing! So whos fault is it.??? I mean you ban ppls accounts when they warned you about the problem and they are working to the games mechanics. CCP you developed it, and you ignored it...the blame is on your shoulders...dont use these people as scapegoats... No I wouldn't, stop your lies Defender of The Guilty. Some of us actually wants fairplay. This post clearly tells us you are definately not one of those people, lol.

Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:26:00 - [1131] "banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question" This isn't making a dent in the player base of the alliances in question. It will put a dent in their wallets. The real question is what happened to ships that had been built for alliance members using this exploit? You would think the alliances would have done a good job of isolating themselves from an exploit like this. If CCP pulls the value of each of those ships used over the course of four years out of people's wallets, half the players in the game will be in trouble. How do they identify who benefited from this? I still have isk in my wallet, so I assume no one I knew benefited.
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:27:00 - [1132] Originally by: Jana rockefeller Quote "if i were a multi millionaire in real life i would prolly have been buying and selling GTC for the 3/4 years i been playing." What if these POS operators were buying GTC's with their ill-gotten gains and selling them for RL $$???? that busts the whole GTC system wide open! geez....im dreading to think whats gonna happen in the next few days. I already see disbanded corps with 0 members on DOTLAN... If someone was selling for RL money, they probably are retired now.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:30:00 - [1133] Originally by: Lochmar Fiendhiem MY SINGLE QUESTION IS THIS. Why should I keep playing this game, when after 3 years I actually had to work to earn my keep, while others were just allowed to do it the easy way? My question too, but as always CCP will cover it up and eventually everyone will move on.
FOl2TY8 Scorpion's Sting	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:30:00 - [1134] WAIT!!! I have just read almost the entire thread and I have one question for you guys. YOU CAN MINE MOONS?!?!?!??!??! this game is awesome.... ---------- The six paths and the four lives....
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:31:00 - [1135] /me rattles pitchfork Errr... Burn The T2 BPO's? I'm feeling it in my bones - they were involved in shady schemes of printing isk while all the rest had to do the hard work for their everyday isk.
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:32:00 - [1136] Originally by: Orree These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. Thank you. From my experience, 10 larges runs around 1.5B for 4 weeks of fuel, meaning 5B would cover around 33 large online towers and 8B would cover about 53 large online towers. Again, those are estimates for large online towers, smaller or offlined towers would obviously require less ISK, and ice could have been mined as well to reduce costs. Either way, assuming all "450" towers were large and online, which would indeed be insane, we're talking about 67.5B in fuel per month. Even that insane amount could be farmed out of legitimate moon mining and/or reactions. -----------------------------------------
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:33:00 - [1137] Originally by: Jelek Coro Originally by: Venkul Mul So you searched for anything with POS exploit and a member of Ev0ke? From the contest, time and petitions argument (ship reimbursement) he was speaking of the bug where it was possible to fire against a ship within a POS bubble. So nice work creating a story from thin air. I would stop digging yourself a hole. The CEO on the banned corp in Evoke has said he (they) did it from when it was posted back in 2005. Read kug's site where he can be found (since he cannot post here anymore). Evoke now carry the label of exploiters. Burn them!!!!!! Why? He pick a post out of contest, and put it up as proof of something. The whole thread in question is about ship reinbursement, ke speak of suffering from a POS exploit and at the time is was possible through a bug to fire at a ship within a POS bubble (something about using passive targeting system, it seem). Quote: Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy :) because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. "Suffered from POS exploit." "Frapped it." Look some other thread about the same time. Those work come up often, almost always about firing trough POS shields. Seeing your age you should remember the threads about that exploit. Sure, you prefer to link a random post with some vaguely appropriate word at the current situation, but I am pretty convinced that the post in question has nothing to do with the current exploit.
Imperian hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:34:00 - [1138] Originally by: BlondieBC Originally by: Jana rockefeller Quote "if i were a multi millionaire in real life i would prolly have been buying and selling GTC for the 3/4 years i been playing." What if these POS operators were buying GTC's with their ill-gotten gains and selling them for RL $$???? that busts the whole GTC system wide open! geez....im dreading to think whats gonna happen in the next few days. I already see disbanded corps with 0 members on DOTLAN... What is DOTLAN? Could you please list the disbanded corps? Thanks Click me RAWR
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari Quicksilver Industries and Painful Effects Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:35:00 - [1139] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Originally by: Mojo Lux Wow, this thread delivers. So it would appear that some folks tripped over the effects of poorly written code and decided to make mountains of ISK from it. Well after the fact CCP learns of this, not from their own efforts as one might hope, but from a player. You can just picture the sceen at CCP...somewhere in Iceland there was a manager or maybe a director knocking on a VP's door with "Ummm boss, we've got a little problem..." About an hour after that some very senior people at CCP were staring at the walls of their offices, or had their heads in their hands while thinking "OMG, this is going to just suck" or "I wonder if this kind of crap happens to Blizzard?", "I should have been a dentist". This is only going to get better. Time to stock up on popcorn! No.. I assume there will be just a single sentence in that room. Moar Beer ? Just a sidenote, I checked in the quarterly economic newsletter, the average net growth of available money (isk faucets - sinks) in the 3rd quarter of 07 was about 170 billion / isk day, with an average daily trade volume of 2.1 trillion isk. What numbers would merit the statistics & research teams assessment that the "effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching" ? I know .. patience.. but I am to damn curious :) market export data and market reports mean nothing if the materials never make it on to the market. Private trading/contracts/etc does not equal market info. But yes, the isk has to come from somewhere. Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:35:00 - [1140] Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. Thank you. From my experience, 10 larges runs around 1.5B for 4 weeks of fuel, meaning 5B would cover around 33 large online towers and 8B would cover about 53 large online towers. Again, those are estimates for large online towers, smaller or offlined towers would obviously require less ISK, and ice could have been mined as well to reduce costs. Either way, assuming all "450" towers were large and online, which would indeed be insane, we're talking about 67.5B in fuel per month. Even that insane amount could be farmed out of legitimate moon mining and/or reactions. ...and so my assertion is proved to be completely on the money and his assertion of 135bn is found to be complete nonsense. Thank you. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli

Julian Grey Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:38:00 - [1141] Originally by: Orree Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. Thank you. From my experience, 10 larges runs around 1.5B for 4 weeks of fuel, meaning 5B would cover around 33 large online towers and 8B would cover about 53 large online towers. Again, those are estimates for large online towers, smaller or offlined towers would obviously require less ISK, and ice could have been mined as well to reduce costs. Either way, assuming all "450" towers were large and online, which would indeed be insane, we're talking about 67.5B in fuel per month. Even that insane amount could be farmed out of legitimate moon mining and/or reactions. ...and so my assertion is proved to be completely on the money and his assertion of 135bn is found to be complete nonsense. Thank you. You're arguing with Butter Dog/Mr Manufacture.....have you no shame !!!
Digiball Amarr Incorporated Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:38:00 - [1142] t2 bpos have nothing to do with the isue! i own the ishtar t2 bpo. and got tnothing to do with moon crap. why should i be punished ? its ok if ccp takes back bpo`s but i would want a solid fund for it then. say 100 bill.. and i consider it. the fact i got my bpo fairly should be taken into consideration and some ******ed story about them turning into anytihng is just stupid. as i by now would have memorised how to make em.. sure ccp claim back t2 bpo but give the owners a SOLID refund. some lame price IS NOT ok. i want 100 bill ATLEAST!
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:39:00 - [1143] Originally by: Julian Grey Originally by: Orree Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree These are Shiva numbers. Scattered around Branch, Venal, Lonetrek and Tribute, we have about 111 towers of all sizes...about half of which are offline placeholders. I got confirmation that our monthly fuel bill is about 5b. As I said...I'm more than willing to assume a conservative 8b to prove a point. Thank you. From my experience, 10 larges runs around 1.5B for 4 weeks of fuel, meaning 5B would cover around 33 large online towers and 8B would cover about 53 large online towers. Again, those are estimates for large online towers, smaller or offlined towers would obviously require less ISK, and ice could have been mined as well to reduce costs. Either way, assuming all "450" towers were large and online, which would indeed be insane, we're talking about 67.5B in fuel per month. Even that insane amount could be farmed out of legitimate moon mining and/or reactions. ...and so my assertion is proved to be completely on the money and his assertion of 135bn is found to be complete nonsense. Thank you. You're arguing with Butter Dog/Mr Manufacture.....have you no shame !!! you, sir, need to learn the art of good trolling
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:40:00 - [1144] Originally by: Digiball t2 bpos have nothing to do with the isue! i own the ishtar t2 bpo. and got tnothing to do with moon crap. why should i be punished ? its ok if ccp takes back bpo`s but i would want a solid fund for it then. say 100 bill.. and i consider it. the fact i got my bpo fairly should be taken into consideration and some ******ed story about them turning into anytihng is just stupid. as i by now would have memorised how to make em.. sure ccp claim back t2 bpo but give the owners a SOLID refund. some lame price IS NOT ok. i want 100 bill ATLEAST! Calm down man, T2 BPOs aren't going anywhere, and if we're lucky they'll see fit to reseed any that the bastards had.
Arrs Grazznic Poena Executive Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:40:00 - [1145] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Orree Why yes, I do. Between 75-100m for a large tower, depending upon how fitted, in sov 1+ (where the vast majority of our towers are located). We have 55 large towers in total. I think you're confusing the cost per week, with the cost per month... doh No he isn't... go and check some of the POS fuelling services in the Sell forums. Full fuel for a non-faction POS in high-sec for under 35m / week. Factor in faction POS and sovereignty bonus, and possibly mining the ice products in house, and you easily achieve that value. Cheers, Arrs
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:42:00 - [1146] Edited by: Abrazzar on 11/12/2008 21:42:22 Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Digiball t2 bpos have nothing to do with the isue! i own the ishtar t2 bpo. and got tnothing to do with moon crap. why should i be punished ? its ok if ccp takes back bpo`s but i would want a solid fund for it then. say 100 bill.. and i consider it. the fact i got my bpo fairly should be taken into consideration and some ******ed story about them turning into anytihng is just stupid. as i by now would have memorised how to make em.. sure ccp claim back t2 bpo but give the owners a SOLID refund. some lame price IS NOT ok. i want 100 bill ATLEAST! Calm down man, T2 BPOs aren't going anywhere, and if we're lucky they'll see fit to reseed any that the bastards had. LOL! All you can think of is the chance of getting your grubby fingers on a T2 BPO. They should do with them what they do with all T2 BPOs that leave the game one way or another: Nothing. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Elecho	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:43:00 - [1147] this has just been pulled from the eve-o main page now... already starting to sweep it under the carpet
Julian Grey Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:44:00 - [1148] Originally by: Mr Manufacture You're arguing with Butter Dog/Mr Manufacture.....have you no shame !!! you, sir, need to learn the art of good trolling I wasn't trolling butters.... Why you still using the Mr Manufacture char to post? Now that the secret's out, its time for Butter Dog's truimphant and very bitter return.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:44:00 - [1149] Originally by: Elecho this has just been pulled from the eve-o main page now... already starting to sweep it under the carpet careful what you say, or CCP might just find a little too much ferrogel in your hangar
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:45:00 - [1150] Edited by: Mr Manufacture on 11/12/2008 21:46:13 Originally by: Julian Grey I wasn't trolling butters.... Why you still using the Mr Manufacture char to post? Now that the secret's out, its time for Butter Dog's truimphant and very bitter return. i already told you he is not subbed atm and while I'm at it, telling people to post with their main on an alt aint exactly high class ;)

Seraphine Keratus	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:45:00 - [1151] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Originally by: Lochmar Fiendhiem MY SINGLE QUESTION IS THIS. Why should I keep playing this game, when after 3 years I actually had to work to earn my keep, while others were just allowed to do it the easy way? My question too, but as always CCP will cover it up and eventually everyone will move on. So u refer to the developers of EVE like they would have intentionally left this one Exploit open so that others can benefit off it? Dont u think, that they would have some HUGE work to do de-exploiting this game and reading through all these partitions to evaluate the real important ones? Lay off from the * CCP- Admins are lazy workers* if u really think that way just quit playing! They got info about an exploit and got rid of the ones abusing it! now they figure out how to manage that and my guess is, that they will try to get the best solution there is to prevent the abuse further, punish the ones abusing, and reinstate the falsely banned accounts! Some faith people.... just some faith!
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:46:00 - [1152] Errrm, your an idiot. It's still there. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:46:00 - [1153] Originally by: Abrazzar Edited by: Abrazzar on 11/12/2008 21:42:22 Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Digiball t2 bpos have nothing to do with the isue! i own the ishtar t2 bpo. and got tnothing to do with moon crap. why should i be punished ? its ok if ccp takes back bpo`s but i would want a solid fund for it then. say 100 bill.. and i consider it. the fact i got my bpo fairly should be taken into consideration and some ******ed story about them turning into anytihng is just stupid. as i by now would have memorised how to make em.. sure ccp claim back t2 bpo but give the owners a SOLID refund. some lame price IS NOT ok. i want 100 bill ATLEAST! Calm down man, T2 BPOs aren't going anywhere, and if we're lucky they'll see fit to reseed any that the bastards had. LOL! All you can think of is the chance of getting your grubby fingers on a T2 BPO. They should do with them what they do with all T2 BPOs that leave the game one way or another: Nothing. I dare say that's not "all" I can think about, but thanks for perpetuating the "T2 BPO owners are greedy sods" stereotype again. Whatever happens I'm fine with it, less T2 BPOs in the game = less competition for me anyway.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:47:00 - [1154] Reading through the Scrapheap thread on this, my favorite post of all time has now been replaced by this: Darius JOHNSON Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:15 pm not it
Felix Underwood	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:47:00 - [1155] t2 bpos have nothing to do with the isue! i own the ishtar t2 bpo. and got tnothing to do with moon crap. why should i be punished ? its ok if ccp takes back bpo`s but i would want a solid fund for it then. say 100 bill.. and i consider it. the fact i got my bpo fairly should be taken into consideration and some ******ed story about them turning into anytihng is just stupid. as i by now would have memorised how to make em.. sure ccp claim back t2 bpo but give the owners a SOLID refund. some lame price IS NOT ok. i want 100 bill ATLEAST! I am sorry, I wasn't very clear. There was a scandal were dev's were members of a corp and that corp was seeded t2 bpo's when they 1st came out. And it took a spy to find out, make and post, and then get banned for making the post. My question is whatever happened to those bpo's and how ccp didn't really directly come forth and give a clear explanation of what happened. Their solution was to form the CSM. But still no explanation. It seems rather similar. I have no issue with t2 bpo's who were earned. But I do have issue with CCP not giving their customers clear details of who was involved with the current scandal.
Ziester GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:47:00 - [1156] Edited by: Ziester on 11/12/2008 21:48:48 Edited by: Ziester on 11/12/2008 21:48:21 Edited by: Ziester on 11/12/2008 21:48:09 Edited by: Ziester on 11/12/2008 21:47:48 http://www.*********.com/showpost.php?p=33466&postcount=32 The evoke guy behind all of this says other people in the area were too. Place your bets now. BoB or other BoB pets? edit: kugutsumen is a banned word?
Thynar Gallente Melita Foundation	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:48:00 - [1157] Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:51:42 Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:50:11 http://www.**********.com/showthread.php?t=3428&page=2 If this is really Maltroc posting, then he seems to imply that the 2005 post was referring to this exploit. edit: "k u g u t s u m e n" is filtered? edit: Ziester faster than me twice
Julian Grey Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:48:00 - [1158] Edited by: Julian Grey on 11/12/2008 21:49:43 Originally by: Mr Manufacture Edited by: Mr Manufacture on 11/12/2008 21:44:58 Originally by: Julian Grey I wasn't trolling butters.... Why you still using the Mr Manufacture char to post? Now that the secret's out, its time for Butter Dog's truimphant and very bitter return. i already told you he is not subbed atm Resub already so we can watch the drama without the whole alt suspense. Ps. I can post on an alt cos I'm not in here accusing people of being cheaters with no evidence. So the whole "High class" issue is moot.
Orange Faeces Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:49:00 - [1159] Orree, While you, sir, may be enjoying the forum warfare defence exercise you are getting in here, I'm pretty sure it is unnecessary. Most of the people hounding you can't possibly have knowledge of the costs and materiel associated with all of that activity. Relax. And if you post once a day we will all be assured that you haven't been suddenly instabanned for years of omgwtfPOSprofits. Respek to morsus. oF --- The Other Orange
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:49:00 - [1160] Originally by: Julian Grey Resub already so we can watch the drama without the whole alt suspense. no thanks, he is resting in peace why dont you post with your main anyway, whilst we're on the subject

Calgura Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:49:00 - [1161] I find it funny. I read the accusations. I read the half-truths. I read the outright lies. I read the questions given by players, and answered by other players even when it should be CCP answering them. I see something that was written on a 3rd party forum, without any proof of it except for words, end up being blown way out of proportions. I agree with the bannings, and anyone involved in this should be banned. I remember the last time GoonSwarm crashed the forums because they decided to go on a spam trip with some half-truths and accusations. Don't remember if it ended up being full-truths and correct accusations though, for which I apologize. I can imagine what CCP feel like. In normal companies (i.e. companies that don't have to give their proof to a group as demanding as a mob), they would have a day, perhaps a week, perhaps more, for the press to catch on, and in that time would be able to think of a solution to a problem. An internet gaming supplier has no such option. Once the snowball rolls, it'll keep growing and growing, and nomatter what CCP end up providing in terms of proof or disclosure, people are still going to moan, ***, whine and complain that CCP didn't do it "the way those people feel CCP should ahve done it.". Sadly, this is an ongoing war CCP cannot hope to win. Should an exploit 4 years old have been discovered? Yes. But I also fault the players who exploited this, as they should have continued spamming the petition system as well as going through the web-site Bug Reporting. Asking for full disclosure is also wrong. As I was saying before, whatever CCP decide to provide will still be faulted as either "not enough disclosure" or "cover up" or "inability to investigate themselves". Theories of Conspiracy will continue to blossom. CCP being a company that has to hold people's privacy in mind as well (by terms of their own EULA and the globally accepted personal privacy by which so many of us enjoy our conducts on the internet) can not and will not disclose everything, nor should they. I will be following this thread most carefully, but I would rather wish only to be reading statements from CCP (when they have been given some more time to actually find out precisely what has happened and conducted their investigation), than I wish to read 38 or more pages from random people who have no way in God's name of knowing what precisely has happened, apart from theories and statements from others, truths or lies, without proof. So, I ask everyone, please stop posting here so we can hear what the CSM and CCP have to offer, and not what accusations, half-truths, lies, bull and other **ing crap the rest of us can offer, because we don't know what's happening behind their doors.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:50:00 - [1162] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Elecho this has just been pulled from the eve-o main page now... already starting to sweep it under the carpet careful what you say, or CCP might just find a little too much ferrogel in your hangar Perhaps you should pack a little more ferrogel in your own hanger, it might keep you from acting so butthurt all the time. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Touch My	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:50:00 - [1163] You know, 70 accounts may have been banned so far, but the people doing this are not idiots. The accounts that got banned were probably accounts set up just to use the exploit while being paid by the exploit. They will be in dummy corps which cant be connected to any of their main toons corps. Only an idiot would have one of his main toons connected to such acts. At the end of the day, i would be suprised if anyone at all actually paid a price for using the exploit. Its f*ing annoying because i lost over 450 million ISK worth of salvage to a smartbombing * in Jita while experiancing latency problems 2 days ago. A GM told me in not so many words to get f*ed if i thought i was going to get it back. I guess the time i spent collecting is doubley stupid. I might just stop and wait for darkfall online.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:51:00 - [1164] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Elecho this has just been pulled from the eve-o main page now... already starting to sweep it under the carpet careful what you say, or CCP might just find a little too much ferrogel in your hangar Perhaps you should pack a little more ferrogel in your own hanger, it might keep you from acting so butthurt all the time. already sold all my ferrogel for a tidy profit ;)
Kwa Kaine eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:52:00 - [1165] Originally by: Ziester edit: k*ugutsumen is a banned word? CCP still haven't learned that trying to cover stuff up is not a good idea. We want the truth and we'll dig for it till we get it. CCP = Blizzard in training
Lao Dok Monolith Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:52:00 - [1166] Doesn't matter how long it took CCP to notice it. I really hope all those cheaters get their arses handed. cheater => just another word for lowlife
St Claus	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:53:00 - [1167] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Edited by: Mr Manufacture on 11/12/2008 21:46:13 Originally by: Julian Grey I wasn't trolling butters.... Why you still using the Mr Manufacture char to post? Now that the secret's out, its time for Butter Dog's truimphant and very bitter return. i already told you he is not subbed atm and while I'm at it, telling people to post with their main on an alt aint exactly high class ;) http://www.eve-search.com/thread/488235#15 Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: maGz Butter Noob got scammed yeah I'm not playing eve anymore, this money was for other people! but still, I know what eve is like, but this is pretty odd... Sharing is caring?
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:54:00 - [1168] Originally by: Gerald Sphinx Guys, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but nowhere in the article do I see that CCP knew of the exploit for four years. All it said that the petition was submitted five DAYS before 7 Dec 2008. What sources do you use to come up with this so-called four-year conspiracy? Until you give me hard, unadulterated, certified proof to back up such claims, I will have to take your word for it. And until then, I will trust CCP. Why trust CCP over others? What is your reasons for this, because I can't see any good reasons why CCP should be more honest than others. CCP makes real life cash from this game, so they have far greater motive to lie than anyone else !
Julian Grey Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:55:00 - [1169] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Julian Grey Resub already so we can watch the drama without the whole alt suspense. no thanks, he is resting in peace why dont you post with your main anyway, whilst we're on the subject I'm not on forum warfare mode...so no need to use my main. Though I must say, it's pretty poor form to accuse people of cheating with no evidence. Your constant flaming of MM/NC not withstanding, I used to think Butter Dog was a pretty OK guy....so slightly disappointed. Wesley Baird seems to be runnign around making the same accusations as well...though he tries to be very subtle about it. Meh...human nature I suppose.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:55:00 - [1170] Originally by: Kwa Kaine Originally by: Ziester edit: kugutsumen is a banned word? CCP still haven't learned that trying to cover stuff up is not a good idea. We want the truth and we'll dig for it till we get it. You DO realize that if CCP wanted to fund an alliance, all they have to do is click a button right? People can be so stupid. ===== Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy

Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:57:00 - [1171] Originally by: Thynar Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:51:42 Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:50:11 http://www.********.com/showthread.php?t=3428&page=2 If this is really Maltroc posting, then he seems to imply that the 2005 post was referring to this exploit. edit: "k u g u t s u m e n" is filtered? edit: Ziester faster than me twice ******** ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 21:59:00 - [1172] Originally by: Julian Grey Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Julian Grey Resub already so we can watch the drama without the whole alt suspense. no thanks, he is resting in peace why dont you post with your main anyway, whilst we're on the subject I'm not on forum warfare mode...so no need to use my main. Though I must say, it's pretty poor form to accuse people of cheating with no evidence. Your constant flaming of MM/NC not withstanding, I used to think Butter Dog was a pretty OK guy....so slightly disappointed. Wesley Baird seems to be runnign around making the same accusations as well...though he tries to be very subtle about it. Meh...human nature I suppose. I find it all hilarious tbh and it is :) i'm sure there is plenty more drama to come
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:00:00 - [1173] Originally by: Rramar Claime Edited by: Rramar Claime on 11/12/2008 21:58:51 Originally by: Thynar Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:51:42 Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:50:11 http://www.********.com/showthread.php?t=3428&page=2 If this is really Maltroc posting, then he seems to imply that the 2005 post was referring to this exploit. edit: "k u g u t s u m e n" is filtered? edit: Ziester faster than me twice ******** edit: LOL had to try it. this is some awesome filtering :D CCP has some good old commie censoring we had here in the '50s .... grats ccp another fail on your list "He Who Shall Not Be Named"
Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:04:00 - [1174] Originally by: Princess Jodi Originally by: Rramar Claime Edited by: Rramar Claime on 11/12/2008 21:58:51 Originally by: Thynar Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:51:42 Edited by: Thynar on 11/12/2008 21:50:11 http://www.********.com/showthread.php?t=3428&page=2 If this is really Maltroc posting, then he seems to imply that the 2005 post was referring to this exploit. edit: "k u g u t s u m e n" is filtered? edit: Ziester faster than me twice ******** edit: LOL had to try it. this is some awesome filtering :D CCP has some good old commie censoring we had here in the '50s .... grats ccp another fail on your list "He Who Shall Not Be Named" ye like voldemort... omg i just said it kug kug kug ku.... it will turn out that with all these commie habits of handling stuff ccp is actually based in china or belarus. ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:04:00 - [1175] Originally by: Mr Manufacture already sold all my ferrogel for a tidy profit ;) A-HA! So you're confessing to have been profiting from this exploit! BAN HIM !!! -------- Ideas for: Mining
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:06:00 - [1176] Originally by: Rramar Claime it will turn out that with all these commie habits of handling stuff ccp is actually based in china or belarus CCCP CCP YOU THOUGHT THIS WAS COINCIDENCE?!? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Warlock Khan Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:07:00 - [1177] Originally by: Datsun Achura Is it true this exploit has existed for four years? It couldn't have been that long. POS's where not out that long.
Julian Grey Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:08:00 - [1178] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Julian Grey Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Julian Grey Resub already so we can watch the drama without the whole alt suspense. no thanks, he is resting in peace why dont you post with your main anyway, whilst we're on the subject I'm not on forum warfare mode...so no need to use my main. Though I must say, it's pretty poor form to accuse people of cheating with no evidence. Your constant flaming of MM/NC not withstanding, I used to think Butter Dog was a pretty OK guy....so slightly disappointed. Wesley Baird seems to be runnign around making the same accusations as well...though he tries to be very subtle about it. Meh...human nature I suppose. I find it all hilarious tbh and it is :) i'm sure there is plenty more drama to come Well it's one thing calling MM carebears or blobbers or whatever...thats really quite amusing but accusing people of being cheaters is a bit OTT.
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:14:00 - [1179] Originally by: Julian Grey Well it's one thing calling MM carebears or blobbers or whatever...thats really quite amusing but accusing people of being cheaters is a bit OTT. oh, please... tell someone who cares it made me laugh, and thats good enough its not like MM didnt accuse bob of haxspoilting at the start of max... if you want epic lulz eve-search those coad whine threads
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:16:00 - [1180] If CCP are wise, they will:: Investigate why the original petition/bug report was closed/ignored, or even if it was petitioned/reported in the first place. Look at the database dumps for the past 4 years (I'd say monthly snapshots, so 48 instances), look for similar POS setups. Ban anyone who had POS management roles for the above POSs. Ban anyone who sold the manufactured Ferrogel (or anything else produced in these exploited reactions). What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Azeneth Mannerheim	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:18:00 - [1181] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Julian Grey Well it's one thing calling MM carebears or blobbers or whatever...thats really quite amusing but accusing people of being cheaters is a bit OTT. oh, please... tell someone who cares it made me laugh, and thats good enough its not like MM didnt accuse bob of haxspoilting at the start of max... if you want epic lulz eve-search those coad whine threads Why are you so angry :I
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:19:00 - [1182] I still can't see how the effects from this could be minimized or reverted. Aside from the months or years of effects it has had previously, how could you yank the thread connecting the exploit to the massive amount of cash to the purchases made with it and the goods traded with it and so on? If they had just been hording all the stuff and keeping it in a hangar, that's simple enough. But, once it has been released into the rest of the economy, the limit to what CCP can do is pretty much jack**. I'm not sure how to look at this. Get **ed and feel that it's impossible to compete in a game with so much (essentially "external") corruption? Or view it as more realism as we are seeing in the world today where government and corporations are completely back-rooming everything and exploiting the hell out of it all to screw over the economy. This certainly won't get me to quit. But that doesn't mean this isn't a fantastic discussion and debate and story. So much drama-filled, delightful, rich, filthy goodness. Awesome!
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:20:00 - [1183] Originally by: Azeneth Mannerheim Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Julian Grey Well it's one thing calling MM carebears or blobbers or whatever...thats really quite amusing but accusing people of being cheaters is a bit OTT. oh, please... tell someone who cares it made me laugh, and thats good enough its not like MM didnt accuse bob of haxspoilting at the start of max... if you want epic lulz eve-search those coad whine threads Why are you so angry :I oh yeah, i'm so angry I'm shaking with rage
Impact	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:21:00 - [1184] HAHAHAHA!!!!!! to funny. Well done CCP ^_^ Good that you caught the exploiters ^_^ Unlike these other people I enjoy when cheaters get hammered, and dont worry about the complaining. Honestly people complain more when there content and have nothing really relavent to complain about. Well Done CCP for catching them ^_^
4 LOM United Gamers	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:22:00 - [1185] Originally by: Digiball t2 bpos have nothing to do with the isue! i own the ishtar t2 bpo. and got tnothing to do with moon crap. why should i be punished ? its ok if ccp takes back bpo`s but i would want a solid fund for it then. say 100 bill.. and i consider it. the fact i got my bpo fairly should be taken into consideration and some ****ed story about them turning into anytihng is just stupid. as i by now would have memorised how to make em.. sure ccp claim back t2 bpo but give the owners a SOLID refund. some lame price IS NOT ok. i want 100 bill ATLEAST! t2 bpo's are not at issue but i had to comment on this. I was in the lottery as well had 10 R&D agents, did not get lucky. But because you won a random draw and have been profiting off a bpo II for years now you think that you are entitield to a compensation package ff its removed? i did just as much work to earn that bpo as you did. I hate the tech 2 bpo entitlement crap. CCP should just burn them all. Originally by:** Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Renfrew Shrufan Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:24:00 - [1186] Originally by: Baske Originally by: Gerald Sphinx Guys, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but nowhere in the article do I see that CCP knew of the exploit for four years. All it said that the petition was submitted five DAYS before 7 Dec 2008. What sources do you use to come up with this so-called four-year conspiracy? Until you give me hard, unadulterated, certified proof to back up such claims, I will have to take your word for it. And until then, I will trust CCP. Why trust CCP over others? What is your reasons for this, because I can't see any good reasons why CCP should be more honest than others. CCP makes real life cash from this game, so they have far greater motive to lie than anyone else ! CCP I can at least hold accountable if they post something and then lie. I can then cancel my subscription(s). You (some random poster on any site saying anything) could be anyone in the world, posting from an IP address routed through multiple compromised servers or relays, and have any reason for doing anything. This includes just making up stuff to posting photoshopped images to posting links to malware and keyloggers. If you don't understand the difference, you're either an idiot or a troll.
Carnal Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:29:00 - [1187] Quote: Originally by: Orree A truck load Care to explain what you mean? I'm defending RAWR Full stop. What i'm saying is very simple: you can say what you want, and you are making asumptions, the facts are far beyond your comprehention, so when the **** hits the fan, you _will_ get compromised. You know that. And you will, no doubt about that
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:30:00 - [1188] Originally by: royal killer But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.) Well, this is what happens when your bug tracking/reporting system is closed to the membership. No accountability. Otherwise certainly a number of other parties would have realized the issue and insisted that it be addressed rather than it slipping under the rug (or being shoved under the rug).
Johncrab Minmatar XBeyond	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:34:00 - [1189] Well, it has been proven that ccp knows about this issue since 2005. Most likelly, according to several reports, they know about it since 2004, in the early days of starbase deployment in game. I don't even have words to describe how lame cheating is. All of you cheating, YOU SUCK! But ccp knowing about this game breaking bug, knowing people were exploiting it with huge profits and doing nothing about it... Well, I though CCP couldn't go any lower but this time you guys just dumped a whole bucket of **** down your heads. Hope you're all proud of your amazing work with game ballance.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:34:00 - [1190] Originally by: Impact HAHAHAHA!!!!!! to funny. Well done CCP ^_^ Good that you caught the exploiters ^_^ Unlike these other people I enjoy when cheaters get hammered, and dont worry about the complaining. Honestly people complain more when there content and have nothing really relavent to complain about. Well Done CCP for catching them ^_^ I don't think you get the "impact" of what this exploit has done.

Ethan Hunte TARDZ	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:35:00 - [1191] so who was the main players? bob? mm? we should be told.
Jovoich Infestation.	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:35:00 - [1192] lol I call 'Bull****' CCP. Isn't it great that the alchemy process was introduced and can 'take up the slack?'
Popsikle Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:36:00 - [1193] Originally by: Julian Grey Well it's one thing calling MM carebears or blobbers or whatever...thats really quite amusing but accusing people of being cheaters is a bit OTT. Its so funny seeing all these responses this time around when the last time something like this happened it was all "OMG BOBZ ALL CHEATIN THEY ALL SUCK, WE DONT NEED NO PROOFZ" ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime.
Popsikle Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:37:00 - [1194] Originally by: Ethan Hunte so who was the main players? bob? mm? we should be told. D2 LOLZ ____ <t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters <SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ? <Garthagk> I can get it up anytime.
blathering idiot Caldari Helliburton Inc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:37:00 - [1195] Edited by: blathering idiot on 11/12/2008 22:37:57 Ok, here is my .02 worth.... What if this is all a scam? I mean, if some people start an entertainment business, say a gambling house for instance. They open it up to the public. Many people show, enriching the business. But the management of the company rig it so that the only people that hit the big BIG jackpots are their friends and family. Is that legal? This isn't gambling but it is entertainment with rewards. Are the best rewards destined to go to the few that which the owners choose? Is this legal? Should this situation be investigated by the very entity that may have created it from the start? Outside, it is almost winter here in RL, should be cold, I hear thunder... Dark clouds are coming.....
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:39:00 - [1196] Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan Originally by: Baske Originally by: Gerald Sphinx Guys, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but nowhere in the article do I see that CCP knew of the exploit for four years. All it said that the petition was submitted five DAYS before 7 Dec 2008. What sources do you use to come up with this so-called four-year conspiracy? Until you give me hard, unadulterated, certified proof to back up such claims, I will have to take your word for it. And until then, I will trust CCP. Why trust CCP over others? What is your reasons for this, because I can't see any good reasons why CCP should be more honest than others. CCP makes real life cash from this game, so they have far greater motive to lie than anyone else ! CCP I can at least hold accountable if they post something and then lie. I can then cancel my subscription(s). You (some random poster on any site saying anything) could be anyone in the world, posting from an IP address routed through multiple compromised servers or relays, and have any reason for doing anything. This includes just making up stuff to posting photoshopped images to posting links to malware and keyloggers. If you don't understand the difference, you're either an idiot or a troll. So you think that CCP will not try understate the impact this has had in the game, to make people stay in the game, for the sake of not losing too much profit....Like they did in the t20 case? You are naive, and clearly lacking logic sense.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:40:00 - [1197] People dont seem to realize that we have 4 years of game development now that were done on the basis of this resource infusion being proper game operation. Basically everything about current tech 2 production was created with allowances for the expoit. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:41:00 - [1198] Edited by: Armoured C on 11/12/2008 22:41:05 oooh no it look like this bob pet wasnt banned because we never exploited such a anti climax ... well maybe next time
Renfrew Shrufan Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:42:00 - [1199] Originally by: Qordel Originally by: royal killer But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.) Well, this is what happens when your bug tracking/reporting system is closed to the membership. No accountability. Otherwise certainly a number of other parties would have realized the issue and insisted that it be addressed rather than it slipping under the rug (or being shoved under the rug). If the whole "exploited for four years" thing is true anyway. I do agree with you though, I'd love to see Eve's defects go to... say bugzilla or some such - with critical exploits being private only until after they've been resolved. Then it's public to the world. There would be costs incurred to transition to that kind of defect tracking system, but I'm starting to think that it may be worth it just for credibility reasons. Tbh, I think that it'd be a freakin' great trend if it caught on in the MMO world at large. Be a leader in the tech world in yet another way CCP!
Ilda Mrika	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:46:00 - [1200] Taken from Viper ****zle @ SCH

s33ker Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:47:00 - [1201] Time to dust of the Omens and Arbitrators.
Renfrew Shrufan Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:48:00 - [1202] Originally by: Baske Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan Originally by: Baske Originally by: Gerald Sphinx Guys, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but nowhere in the article do I see that CCP knew of the exploit for four years. All it said that the petition was submitted five DAYS before 7 Dec 2008. What sources do you use to come up with this so-called four-year conspiracy? Until you give me hard, unadulterated, certified proof to back up such claims, I will have to take your word for it. And until then, I will trust CCP. Why trust CCP over others? What is your reasons for this, because I can't see any good reasons why CCP should be more honest than others. CCP makes real life cash from this game, so they have far greater motive to lie than anyone else ! CCP I can at least hold accountable if they post something and then lie. I can then cancel my subscription(s). You (some random poster on any site saying anything) could be anyone in the world, posting from an IP address routed through multiple compromised servers or relays, and have any reason for doing anything. This includes just making up stuff to posting photoshopped images to posting links to malware and keyloggers. If you don't understand the difference, you're either an idiot or a troll. So you think that CCP will not try understate the impact this has had in the game, to make people stay in the game, for the sake of not losing too much profit....Like they did in the t20 case? You are naive, and clearly lacking logic sense. Thanks for intentionally missing the point while trying to drive your weak insinuations home. What I was talking about was what you specifically asked about. Why trust CCP over some anonymous coward. Go away troll. Further responses will be ignored from you unless any actual content is posted.
Leuko Uratne Prison Break Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:48:00 - [1203] Originally by: s33ker Time to dust of the Omens and Arbitrators. Why settle for second best when you can bring a Vexor?
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:49:00 - [1204] Originally by: 4 LOM Originally by: Digiball t2 bpos have nothing to do with the isue! i own the ishtar t2 bpo. and got tnothing to do with moon crap. why should i be punished ? its ok if ccp takes back bpo`s but i would want a solid fund for it then. say 100 bill.. and i consider it. the fact i got my bpo fairly should be taken into consideration and some ******ed story about them turning into anytihng is just stupid. as i by now would have memorised how to make em.. sure ccp claim back t2 bpo but give the owners a SOLID refund. some lame price IS NOT ok. i want 100 bill ATLEAST! t2 bpo's are not at issue but i had to comment on this. I was in the lottery as well had 10 R&D agents, did not get lucky. But because you won a random draw and have been profiting off a bpo II for years now you think that you are entitield to a compensation package ff its removed? i did just as much work to earn that bpo as you did. I hate the tech 2 bpo entitlement crap. CCP should just burn them all. You DID get a nice reward for your efforts. How much isks have those agents given you in the form of datacores since then? ------------------------------------------
s33ker Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:49:00 - [1205] Originally by: Leuko Uratne Originally by: s33ker Time to dust of the Omens and Arbitrators. Why settle for second best when you can bring a Vexor? Psh I will eat your vexor for breakfast, bring it.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:50:00 - [1206] I somehow don't give a flying f*ck about the bans.... Bans wont fix the impact this have had in the game overtime, not even remotely close. CCP, you have to get VERY creative this weekend, coming up with a solution which in someway resets a lot of the server more or less.. Personally, I think that it is time for the Jovians to wreck some bigtime 0.0 Havoc.
Zaafir	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:52:00 - [1207] Having not evened owned a POS I am thinking the only people this expoit harmed was the corps actually trying to make a buck the legitimate way. I for one enjoyed the benifits of cheaper tech 2 items. Now that time has passed. Thank you CCP for catching the exploit and getting it fixed. I don't understand what many of you have to gain by crying like little *****es. In a few months most of the illegally gotten material will have been blown up anyway and someone will be purchasing a "legally" made product from you anyway.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:54:00 - [1208] Anyone notice how the vast majority of people saying 'stop whining' or being less than critical of CCP conduct are either anonymous alts or BoB aligned? There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:54:00 - [1209] Originally by: Armoured C Edited by: Armoured C on 11/12/2008 22:41:05 oooh no it look like this bob pet wasnt banned because we never exploited such a anti climax ... well maybe next time The smarter people would have created alt-corps to exploit this bug and laundry the money in best way they can before sending it to their mains. Not everyone who cheats is a ******, people know they would get busted eventually. If even 10% of titan money was indirectly provided by this scheme, CCP wouldn't take away the titan. The people owning the titan would have no direct connection with people who exploited. Basically, if somebody had 1 month to run an operation like this, they could shift resources between alts, public market orders, ships/module transfers so much that CCP wouldn't be able to trace it.. not without spending months of manhours.
Ilda Mrika	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:55:00 - [1210] Originally by: Zaafir ... Thank you CCP for catching the exploit and getting it fixed. ... 5 years too late.

Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:57:00 - [1211] Originally by: Dasfry I just want to say thank you for posting this. You could have just not said anything. Isn't that exactly what they did for four years?
cheephough Caldari Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.11 22:58:00 - [1212] Edited by: cheephough on 11/12/2008 22:59:00 For all those that are calling for a name and shame, or a witch hunt, I propose the following: The Jita Concord Titan Firing Squad - Have all the banned accounts characters put into their best ships, with as many mods as can be fit on them and stored in their cargo bays, lined up 1000km off of Jita 4-4. Then, have twenty or so CONCORD TITANS unload a salvo of doomsday devices to reduce the ill gotten goods and their pods to twisted scrap metals and biomass. (Edit: Personally, I couldn't give a rat's arse. I enjoy blowing stuff up, getting blown up, and the comradery between my corpmates.) Have the remains, both ship and corpse, permanently on display to show what happens to those that seek to take the easy path to fame and fortune.
Renfrew Shrufan Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:02:00 - [1213] Edited by: Renfrew Shrufan on 11/12/2008 23:04:06 Edited by: Renfrew Shrufan on 11/12/2008 23:03:37 Originally by: Baske I somehow don't give a flying f*ck about the bans.... Bans wont fix the impact this have had in the game overtime, not even remotely close. CCP, you have to get VERY creative this weekend, coming up with a solution which in someway resets a lot of the server more or less.. Personally, I think that it is time for the Jovians to wreck some bigtime 0.0 Havoc. Heh, I agree Baske - if possibly for different reasons. Having Jovians wreaking some bigtime havoc in 0.0 and/or lowsec would be cool as hell just to get 'em back in the story... Edit, Edit2: Baske's name again, crap!
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:11:00 - [1214] Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan Edited by: Renfrew Shrufan on 11/12/2008 23:04:06 Edited by: Renfrew Shrufan on 11/12/2008 23:03:37 Originally by: Baske I somehow don't give a flying f*ck about the bans.... Bans wont fix the impact this have had in the game overtime, not even remotely close. CCP, you have to get VERY creative this weekend, coming up with a solution which in someway resets a lot of the server more or less.. Personally, I think that it is time for the Jovians to wreck some bigtime 0.0 Havoc. Heh, I agree Baske - if possibly for different reasons. Having Jovians wreaking some bigtime havoc in 0.0 and/or lowsec would be cool as hell just to get 'em back in the story... Edit, Edit2: Baske's name again, crap! A major Jove Attack would be sooooo cool
Kaaii Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:11:00 - [1215] Originally by: RedSplat Anyone notice how the vast majority of people saying 'stop whining' or being less than critical of CCP conduct are either anonymous alts or BoB aligned? Any one else notice how stupid he is? According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:12:00 - [1216] You know, what we need is a real world solution. In the real world when the economy is hosed and has tons of problems all the major corporations get together and ask the government for a bail out. What we need is a all the major EVE corporations to ask CCP for a bail out plan as well. Basically, give them free access to the minerals to offset the loss of supply from these banned players. That way the economy stays balanced where its at! PROBLEM SOLVED!!! and for those of you that think I was serious, this post is dripping with sarcasm
Gone'Postal Minmatar Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:12:00 - [1217] Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: RedSplat Anyone notice how the vast majority of people saying 'stop whining' or being less than critical of CCP conduct are either anonymous alts or BoB aligned? Any one else notice how stupid he is? Yup.
Mei Ree	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:13:00 - [1218] Jove would be cool. After all, spontaneous creation of matter is impossible. It must have been the Others... Enhuadanni or whatever the Jove call them.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:14:00 - [1219] I really don't understand all the anger.... For the largest amount of EVE players, this haven't been a BAD thing for their day-to-day game. The only ones who'd really lost out has been the ones who did the reactions the legal way. For all the rest of us, the main effect has been cheaper T2 stuff. The most fun part of this is seeing who the guilty parties are I of.c. fully support the cheaters getting banned, and I wouldn't have any problems with their alliances getting punished as well, but the irrationality of the angry posters make me laugh I'm also looking forward to reading the whines when T2 prices go sky-rocketing (at least in the short term)... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:20:00 - [1220] Originally by: Ryel Theon Go look up 'negative proof' in wikipedia. Did you even read the article? The first two lines show that it doesn't apply here. You can indeed prove a negative. But you cannot use lack of evidence for the negative as proof of the positive. And that is all I am saying. You can easily prove that someone did not do something. You just can't infer lack of proof of that to mean that they did do it. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.

Br0wn 0ps	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:21:00 - [1221] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. Name and shame the Corps. This is intolerable.
durek magaliese	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:21:00 - [1222] WOW it all adds up there is a possablity that the letter you may or may not have read is true Poses were introduced November 2004 in the 3rd expansion of EVE Exodus
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:22:00 - [1223] Originally by: Van Krakien Edited by: Van Krakien on 10/12/2008 23:18:41 quick, get a 700 billion isk bailout for the t2 carebears! I hate to break it to you but the bailout total in America is not 700b but (so far) 7.36 trillion.
Trebor Daehdoow Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:24:00 - [1224] Well, since CCP has records of every transaction in the game, and (I would hope!) numerous backups of the game state, it should be relatively easy to look through the backups and find all the exploit POS's and total how long they were in operation. Furthermore they should be able to connect those installations to particular characters, corps and alliances. That gets you the alts - big whupty. Assuming that the miscreants are at all intelligent, they tried to launder the loot through the market, contracts and trading. But almost certainly they (a) didn't go enough levels deep to make it hard to track and (b) lapsed into particular trading patterns. And it turns out there's an fairly easy way to detect the final recipients of the ill-gotten gains; a variant of Google's famous PageRank algorithm -- call it IskRank. The ISK will concentrate in a relatively small number of pockets within relatively short (3-5) transaction chains. So now you have a good idea who (people, corps and alliances) did it, and how much they made. How to make it right? I have an evil suggestion: 1) Levy a fine of 150% of the estimated ISK generated. 2) Apply it proportionately to every player in a fingered corp/alliance based on how long they've been in the alliance and how much ISK they have. Name and Shame of course. 3) Make a minor patch so that characters with negative ISK balances cannot use gates (already true), cynos or jump bridges. The bad actors will find they have a choice between ratting in their Titans or selling them. The leaders of the corps will have to explain themselves to their outraged grunts. And most importantly, a powerful message will be sent that knowingly using an exploit results in a fate worse, in many ways, than the banstick. Finally, if this exploit was clearly reported by a good samaritan who went out of his/her/it way to do the right thing, CCP should say so, and cough up a nice reward, to encourage others to do the same. World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
Apaco lypse	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:25:00 - [1225] Originally by: Qordel Originally by: Van Krakien Edited by: Van Krakien on 10/12/2008 23:18:41 quick, get a 700 billion isk bailout for the t2 carebears! I hate to break it to you but the bailout total in America is not 700b but (so far) 7.36 trillion. uhh i think they forgot a few numbers... TOTAL 7361917
iR Retard	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:28:00 - [1226] I was told the Estimated Value of the exploit, roughly examined with $$$ Dollers was about 30million Dollers, 1 person admitted to making 3million Dollers from this...
Katrina Marie	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:30:00 - [1227] interesting information relating to corps which have closed down (or been closed down) in the last few days: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corpchanges.html
durek magaliese	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:30:00 - [1228] Originally by: iR ****** I was told the Estimated Value of the exploit, roughly examined with $$$ Dollers was about 30million Dollers, 1 person admitted to making 3million Dollers from this... not true don't start rumors
Jack Caelum	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:31:00 - [1229] I love this game.
Aksimel	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:31:00 - [1230] ... and people thought macro miners were bad.... Anyone taking bets on when this threadnaught will outgrow the ghost training threadtitan?

Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:31:00 - [1231] Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Go look up 'negative proof' in wikipedia. Did you even read the article? The first two lines show that it doesn't apply here. You can indeed prove a negative. But you cannot use lack of evidence for the negative as proof of the positive. And that is all I am saying. You can easily prove that someone did not do something. You just can't infer lack of proof of that to mean that they did do it. is that like the evidence you had when you whined on CAOD about BoB haxsploits? suck it up MM, the shoe is fitting rather nicely
Jack Caelum	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:35:00 - [1232] Originally by: Katrina Marie interesting information relating to corps which have closed down (or been closed down) in the last few days: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corpchanges.html some pretty big names on that list..
Burnt Love	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:36:00 - [1233] This is interesting: Linkage
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:36:00 - [1234] lol compensate corporations for the lack of ISK generation now that their free ISK is gone. Seriously? Are you people nuts?
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:37:00 - [1235] Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: RedSplat Anyone notice how the vast majority of people saying 'stop whining' or being less than critical of CCP conduct are either anonymous alts or BoB aligned? Any one else notice how stupid he is? Yup. Yes. And I'm neither a alt or BOB aligned. CCP has no motive to purposely allow this loophole. If you think they would have to jump through these kind of hoops if they were inclined to make cash selling isk themselves is just simply LOL. I doubt the report some years ago was specific to these events. However, if it were there would be no reason for them to sweep it under the rug. In fact, if they had, why would they plaster it across the front page now? Really, get a grip. A much more likely scenario would be that a GM looked at the petition, tried to reproduce it and screwed it up, and figured someone was jerking his chain. Regardless I'm sure that vague report will be turned inside out, witnesses and long lost relatives will come out of the woodwork looking for attention, and CCP haters will unite once again. And yes to the more hysterical segment of our population the only ramifications of this mess (unless you are in direct completion for the reactions in question) is that you got better prices on your T2 ships, so calm down. Jebus, people are lemmings sometimes. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
MyOwnSling Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:39:00 - [1236] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Go look up 'negative proof' in wikipedia. Did you even read the article? The first two lines show that it doesn't apply here. You can indeed prove a negative. But you cannot use lack of evidence for the negative as proof of the positive. And that is all I am saying. You can easily prove that someone did not do something. You just can't infer lack of proof of that to mean that they did do it. is that like the evidence you had when you whined on CAOD about BoB haxsploits? suck it up MM, the shoe is fitting rather nicely I wouldn't know, I don't post there. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face... Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Jack Caelum	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:40:00 - [1237] Originally by: Saarin Edited by: Saarin on 11/12/2008 23:37:34 Soo the gtc i paid real cash for (and sold) was bought with isk generated for free??? wtf you paid real money for digital isk to begin with so you can't really complain that much.
Jose Jimenez Caldari Nayashimi Natuki	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:43:00 - [1238] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: MyOwnSling Originally by: Ryel Theon Go look up 'negative proof' in wikipedia. Did you even read the article? The first two lines show that it doesn't apply here. You can indeed prove a negative. But you cannot use lack of evidence for the negative as proof of the positive. And that is all I am saying. You can easily prove that someone did not do something. You just can't infer lack of proof of that to mean that they did do it. is that like the evidence you had when you whined on CAOD about BoB haxsploits? suck it up MM, the shoe is fitting rather nicely Listen little troll and liar, you should pretty much be banned for all the trolls you are putting up here. If you are bitter about someone beating you ingame , thats cool, but dont be a kid about it and tell lies on these forums in an official CCP thread. Since you have no proof whatsoever, no corp or players of the alliance you are acusing have been affected how about you suck it up and try not to use this as a way to bash on a completely fair and square alliance and ppl playing this game. yeah ? You still up for that bet kiddo. the one i posted about a couple pages back ?
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:43:00 - [1239] Originally by: MyOwnSling I wouldn't know, I don't post there. And neither did your alt, or indeed any MM alt. Oh no, you're an honourable alliance
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:44:00 - [1240] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 11/12/2008 23:29:13 Well, since CCP has records of every transaction in the game, and (I would hope!) numerous backups of the game state, it should be relatively easy to look through the backups and find all the exploit POS's and total how long they were in operation. Furthermore they should be able to connect those installations to particular characters, corps and alliances. That gets you the alts - big whupty. Assuming that the miscreants are at all intelligent, they tried to launder the loot through the market, contracts and trading. But almost certainly they (a) didn't go enough levels deep to make it hard to track and (b) lapsed into particular trading patterns. And it turns out there's an fairly easy way to detect the final recipients of the ill-gotten gains; a variant of Google's famous PageRank algorithm -- call it IskRank. The ISK will concentrate in a relatively small number of pockets within relatively short (3-5) transaction chains. The same technique can be used to detect outbound laundering by people who as stashing isk in case their mains get banned. So now you have a good idea who (people, corps and alliances) did it, and how much they made. How to make it right? I have an evil suggestion: 1) Levy a fine of 150% of the estimated ISK generated. 2) Apply it proportionately to every player in a fingered corp/alliance based on how long they've been in the alliance and how much ISK they have. Name and Shame of course. 3) Make a minor patch so that characters with negative ISK balances cannot use gates (already true), cynos or jump bridges. The bad actors will find they have a choice between ratting in their Titans or selling them. The leaders of the corps will have to explain themselves to their outraged grunts. And most importantly, a powerful message will be sent that knowingly using an exploit results in a fate worse, in many ways, than the banstick. Finally, if this exploit was clearly reported by a good samaritan who went out of his/her/it way to do the right thing, CCP should say so, and cough up a nice reward, to encourage others to do the same. This is an excellent plan. If possible, i would like to see the members, current and past, made joint and severally liable for the fine. I would also like to see POS destroyed, and the destroyed POS, POS mods, and ships at POS counted towards the fines. Then i would like to see Titans, MOM, dreads, and Carriers counted towards the fine. Logic says these items are what the isks were spent on.

Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:45:00 - [1241] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: MyOwnSling I wouldn't know, I don't post there. And neither did your alt, or indeed any MM alt. Oh no, you're an honourable alliance Hang in there, eventually "someone" will pay attention to your rants, other than to laugh at you. Hey, anything's possible.... ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Pussae Jones	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:46:00 - [1242] The upside to all of this is that the cheat is gone. The cheaters (or the ones they caught) gone. A bunch of folks will get all ****ed and quit. Good riddance. Go play wOw. Play or don't play. Makes for lots of open real estate down in 0.0 and there should be some interesting battles among the surviving alliances for the real estate. CCP: Keep fixing the bugs and improving the game. Keep up the good work. PJ
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:47:00 - [1243] Originally by: RedSplat Anyone notice how the vast majority of people saying 'stop whining' or being less than critical of CCP conduct are either anonymous alts or BoB aligned? Yup, loads of these people in this thread. Suspicious...noooooooo, not at all :)
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:47:00 - [1244] Originally by: Jose Jimenez Listen little troll and liar, you should pretty much be banned for all the trolls you are putting up here. If you are bitter about someone beating you ingame , thats cool, but dont be a kid about it and tell lies on these forums in an official CCP thread. Since you have no proof whatsoever, no corp or players of the alliance you are acusing have been affected how about you suck it up and try not to use this as a way to bash on a completely fair and square alliance and ppl playing this game. yeah ? You still up for that bet kiddo. the one i posted about a couple pages back ? you sound angry where does your one man corp get the isk to place bets defending MM? hmmm... is that ferrogel in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me
Bobbechk The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:48:00 - [1245] Tanis. Alliance: Tanis. Corp 2 closed 2008-12-10 OMG does this mean CCP are sploiters too!!? ...
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:49:00 - [1246] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: MyOwnSling I wouldn't know, I don't post there. And neither did your alt, or indeed any MM alt. Oh no, you're an honourable alliance Hang in there, eventually "someone" will pay attention to your rants, other than to laugh at you. Hey, anything's possible.... have you even read the thread? the 'cream' of MM are on maximum damage control, its hilarious i need more popcorn
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:56:00 - [1247] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: MyOwnSling I wouldn't know, I don't post there. And neither did your alt, or indeed any MM alt. Oh no, you're an honourable alliance Hang in there, eventually "someone" will pay attention to your rants, other than to laugh at you. Hey, anything's possible.... have you even read the thread? the 'cream' of MM are on maximum damage control, its hilarious i need more popcorn How odd. I always though that a prerequisite for employing damage control was for there to actually be damage done. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:56:00 - [1248] In my past experience of trying to get CCP to fix exploits the process is as follows. * petition * get cookie cutter response * start thread to lobby the situation and petition including details and links * get cookie cutter response * ask for escalation because the gm didn't read the petition * submit bug reports with full details * have bug report sent back because it wasn't in the correct format (even though it was) None of what has happend is of any surprise after my experiences. It also doesn't surprise me that both Eris and Kieron both posted in a 2005 thread discussing this issue. Quality Assurance isn't about ignoring problems. Maybe CCP should review ISO 9001 QA standard and see what the sort of procedures that would help avoid systematic blunders. http://obeythekitten.com/
Titan Pilot Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.12.11 23:57:00 - [1249] From a purely economic point of view, this change is what the market needed tbh. T2 Ships were far too cheap. I had been running the numbers for months wondering how people were dumping ships on the market so cheap. I have perfect build, I can invent anything and I am fairly rich myself, yet there was no way I could compete. Welcome to Thunderdome kiddies
Zaethiel D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:03:00 - [1250] What a huge exploit lol. Have to say of the majority of games i've played over the years; CCP is pretty bad logistically. I'm rather surprised to hear it took them 5 days to get the petition, must not have been petitioned under the exploit category (the do respond to that pretty well). I really want to know who it was exploiting. Name and Shame/Congratulate. -----

Braaage Ministry of Craft	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:05:00 - [1251] Originally by: Devian 666 In my past experience of trying to get CCP to fix exploits the process is as follows. * petition * get cookie cutter response * start thread to lobby the situation and petition including details and links * get cookie cutter response * ask for escalation because the gm didn't read the petition * submit bug reports with full details * have bug report sent back because it wasn't in the correct format (even though it was) None of what has happend is of any surprise after my experiences. It also doesn't surprise me that both Eris and Kieron both posted in a 2005 thread discussing this issue. Quality Assurance isn't about ignoring problems. Maybe CCP should review ISO 9001 QA standard and see what the sort of procedures that would help avoid systematic blunders. This is exactly what I was going to post, I have in the past been the first to spot a game breaking exploit. I had to scream and shout from the top of my voice after bug reporting, petitioning and basically being ignored. Eventually someone heard me that thought hey what's he on about and actually looked. At that point the TQ cluster went into immediate shutdown (they could do this cos it was straight after a big patch) and fixed. Bug reports have to be right on the button with as much evidence and screenshots otherwise most of the time the person who reads them does not understand WTF you are on about. I even took to making a video and hosting it of a particular bug because I thought there's no way I can explain this in words. Since 4 years ago bug reports were probably handled differently to now I don't know what to say, but all you people screaming at CCP have got to give them enough time to sift through 4 years of exploiting and market transactions. That in itself I reckon is going to take weeks if not months. -- POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EA EVE Database, Character Generator & more
Ilda Mrika	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:05:00 - [1252] Originally by: Devian 666 In my past experience of trying to get CCP to fix exploits the process is as follows. * petition * get cookie cutter response * start thread to lobby the situation and petition including details and links * get cookie cutter response * ask for escalation because the gm didn't read the petition * submit bug reports with full details * have bug report sent back because it wasn't in the correct format (even though it was) None of what has happend is of any surprise after my experiences. It also doesn't surprise me that both Eris and Kieron both posted in a 2005 thread discussing this issue. Quality Assurance isn't about ignoring problems. Maybe CCP should review ISO 9001 QA standard and see what the sort of procedures that would help avoid systematic blunders. Important post right here.
Hacra Minmatar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:10:00 - [1253] 1) Anything funded with the isk, made with these towers should be removed, just for the sake of fairness. - Accounts - Towers - Stations - Capitals 2) Let CCP do their research. (Clearly not quickly resolved matter) 3) With the assumption this has continued for 4 years, market prices are bound to fluctuate a "little".
Tanaki Arus	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:13:00 - [1254] I find it hard to believe that after 4 years of this happening, they only banned 70 accounts. Who the hell are they protecting?
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:18:00 - [1255] Originally by: Tanaki Arus I find it hard to believe that after 4 years of this happening, they only banned 70 accounts. Who the hell are they protecting? Their friends or themselves.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:24:00 - [1256] Originally by: Tanaki Arus I find it hard to believe that after 4 years of this happening, they only banned 70 accounts. Who the hell are they protecting? Most likely those 70 accounts were the people that accessed the silos and POSes that used the exploit. They are still investigating where all the ISK went and that can take a while, depending on how good the exploiters were in covering their tracks. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Chubby Cheeks	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:28:00 - [1257] they are protecting BoB alliance as usual
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:31:00 - [1258] Eve's Resident Economist did not see this. Although mentioned much, I've been ruminating on what that means... Now, there is the off chance that our esteemed Economist is just the nephew of some big shot who got a mail-order Economist degree, but I dismiss that. Gotta give it a bullet point as it does happen in business. I give CCP more credit than that. The point was brought up that Economists tend to look for changes to a system, so its possible that his late entrance into Eve forced him to assume it all worked ok. He almost certainly didn't examine acutal code. Might not even had ever played Eve before, and the learning curve is steep. I suppose that might have explained him missing it. The Eve economy is indeed vast and since its a sandbox the fabled 'Invisible Hand of the Market' does tend to even things out. Maybe certian triggers were not hit such as zero supply or Monopolies. We players know nothing of the internal checks CCP uses. Since this was possible with any reaction the cheaters could shift based on max prices. Ferrogel was simply the most efficient, not the only one possible. So I could see this long-term scam being able to hide in the shadows. Another possible way it was missed. Then you get to the question of Rarity and hit a brick wall. See, at some point CCP decided that there would be some Moon Mins rarer than others. They put together a list of ways that those reacted and adjusted amounts needed based on Rarity. It was finely balanced and actually changed a few times. That implies that CCP planned to produce X amount of items because they had Y and Z amount of Moon Mins in existence. They HAD to know how many moons existed or else the calculations could result in zero supply. Now, keep in mind that Ferrogel was chosen cuz it was the most needed. In essence, not enough Ferrogel was being produced to meet the need. Zero supply. But the trigger never went off cuz the cheaters could create Ferrogel from thin air...err... space. Why was insufficient Ferrogel missed? How can someone audit reactions enough to make adjustments to the needed Moon Mins several times and not see this? Who was so vain in their skill at modeling that they sat back and didn't question when it all flowed smoothly? Those are the answers that we need.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:36:00 - [1259] Quote: It also doesn't surprise me that both Eris and Kieron both posted in a 2005 thread discussing this issue. Frankly, I don't see anything in that thread discussing this issue at all. I see a reference to an exploit that the poster's corp suffered from and petitioned. I must have missed the reference to free moon minerals and what a burden they are. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
LiNkIsMaXiMuS Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:39:00 - [1260] For all u MM Haters wondering where 10+ whatever bla bla titans came from, Back when the 10/10 in gih was around it was farmed gasp oh yes we made isk from the 10/10 omg omg.... ok well i know 1 Titan that came from that income(rl friend). I personally with help of some r/l friends acquired the Materials for 2-3 titans without using moon minerals, there is the story (without too much detail) on 4 of them, figure out the rest. Remember rumors are not truth.

Spite4U D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:40:00 - [1261] The big question I'm wondering is how much of the ferrogel that was on the market was coming from these sources? Just how much was legitmately sourced, it's sure gonna be interesting over the coming days seeing how much prices for certain things increase as this filters down. Also one other question, how come CCP didnt spot that more Ferrogel was being created than was possible with the moons in Eve? Someone somewhere wasn't doing their jobs.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.12 00:45:00 - [1262] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: It also doesn't surprise me that both Eris and Kieron both posted in a 2005 thread discussing this issue. Frankly, I don't see anything in that thread discussing this issue at all. I see a reference to an exploit that the poster's corp suffered from and petitioned. I must have missed the reference to free moon minerals and what a burden they are. An issue that Maltroc said he couldn't discuss as it would get the thread locked. Posting exploit details publically would be pretty stupid. http://obeythekitten.com/
Cybele Lanier Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:03:00 - [1263] Originally by: LiNkIsMaXiMuS Remember rumors are not truth. Are you saying CAOD has lied to me? --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence."
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:05:00 - [1264] Originally by: Ranger 1 And this proves your point how? How does your trolling contribute to this thread? The issue I have raised is that CCP go to great lengths to ignore any reports of problems, and don't put in the effort to understand them. If they had this issue would not have gone on for 4 years. http://obeythekitten.com/
Superfailsauce Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:09:00 - [1265] I find this all quite ridiculous... This is not T20 all over again, simply a group of people making use of a game bug to line their pockets. Offending parties have been banned (none of whom are BOB affiliates) and I'm sure CCP are digging deeper as we speak. Yes there were failings in picking it up. Who cares. What's done is done, instead of whining about your 4 years of minimal profit margins start looking at ways to increase those margins now. ------- Larkonis' Alt, main got banned.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:10:00 - [1266] EPIC THREAD IS EPIC!!!!!!!!
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:12:00 - [1267] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 12/12/2008 01:12:43 Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Ranger 1 And this proves your point how? How does your trolling contribute to this thread? The issue I have raised is that CCP go to great lengths to ignore any reports of problems, and don't put in the effort to understand them. If they had this issue would not have gone on for 4 years. I edited something into that post as an after thought that may make you reconsider. Truth to tell, I'm not the troll here. In fact, let me put that edit here for you. Edit: If you look at his post closely, you will see that he quotes statement a dev made about CCP's reimbursement policy for losses. Please tell me why he would quote that if the petition he mentions is about free moon minerals. It makes absolutely no sense. This is a classic example of "If you throw enough crap on the floor, someone will fall for it". ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:17:00 - [1268] Look at that... what a shocking surprise. I have seen something strange going on with the advanced materials prices for more than a year and a half now, this explains allot. Personally this is what we should worry about: "Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching." and "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors." This inconsistency bothers me allot. Because, after doing some research, gathering admittedly anecdotal evidence from sources inside and outside the game - this exploit is older than 12 months. What is shocking is that certain entities at CCP knew of it's existence and chose to ignore it. Why I think this is the case? Because, CCP never addresses an issue until it become a nightmare, they never act unless their backs against the wall - we have seen this over and over again, repeated over many years. The issue with the cost of T2 materials has been going on for too long, and most of EVE players have experienced it. We can not rely on the fact that this has been an isolated incident, this was a widespread exploitation, and we were all touched by it. Questions and needs....now... are these: CCP needs to make clear the extent of the exploit, and come clean as to why it was overlooked for so long. And try not to repeat the "Ghost Training" fiasco - hey T0rfi, I hope you doing well mate. CCP needs to explain to all the players which actions were taken against which entities, because from what I have learned, the real culprits have not been punished. And, number of out of EVE Online Forum sources have listed the speculation that "ALT/MAIN" accounts were purchased by these people specifically to safeguard themselves for such an event as we are experiencing now. Alliances, and corporations that were involved in it need to be disbanded. Something like this would not go unnoticed in an alliance of 10,000 players, much less in something like what 500-2,000 players that were supposedly part of those involved. If not on personal level, then on CORPORATE level they are responsible, and such need to be terminated as entities. They were all complicit, if only by observing the code of silence because "it helped their alliance." All assets, all corporate, and alliance assets must be seized. All assets of CEOs, and ruling elite has to be seized. And recent transfers from corporate hangars traced and seized as well. And, I do not care if they ban them, just make sure to let the players know the names, the EVE population will deal with them swiftly themselves. Oh well, I am not surprised at CCP, I would not be surprised if CCP Employees were involved in this as well, or that they have learned through petition about it, and have been abusing this mechanic themselves for personal gain. I am also fairly certain that the amount of ISK collected did not all go to wars and T2 BPOs, I am sure allot of it have wound up for sale on E-Bay and other places. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
stupid flanders	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:20:00 - [1269] Read the firt 18 pages as they happened last night before the real world took hold. Can I get a summery of what has happend from then on? (Scanned all pages for blue/red bars but didnt see any) Thanks in advanced -Flanders
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:20:00 - [1270] Edited by: Devian 666 on 12/12/2008 01:22:21 Originally by: Ranger 1 I edited something into that post as an after thought that may make you reconsider. Truth to tell, I'm not the troll here. In fact, let me put that edit here for you. Edit: If you look at his post closely, you will see that he quotes statement a dev made about CCP's reimbursement policy for losses. Please tell me why he would quote that if the petition he mentions is about free moon minerals. It makes absolutely no sense. This is a classic example of "If you throw enough crap on the floor, someone will fall for it". I think you're trying to read a bit too much into my post. Reread what I wrote in that sentance. While the 2005 thread is about CCP handling petitions poorly. Maltroc did say that he emailed Kieron about the exploit as the petitions he'd filed had been ignored or misunderstood by the GM who dealt with it. There are two people that have publically stated that they reported the exploit. It makes me wonder how many people reported the exploit and were ignored. I'm only pointing out that the QA on bug testing, reporting and petitions needs to be improved. You seem to be focused on some conspiracy involving CCP which has nothing to do with my post. http://obeythekitten.com/

Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:20:00 - [1271] [ 2008.12.12 01:20:36 ] (notify) Waffles are Roffled.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:28:00 - [1272] Originally by: Devian 666 Edited by: Devian 666 on 12/12/2008 01:22:21 Originally by: Ranger 1 I edited something into that post as an after thought that may make you reconsider. Truth to tell, I'm not the troll here. In fact, let me put that edit here for you. Edit: If you look at his post closely, you will see that he quotes statement a dev made about CCP's reimbursement policy for losses. Please tell me why he would quote that if the petition he mentions is about free moon minerals. It makes absolutely no sense. This is a classic example of "If you throw enough crap on the floor, someone will fall for it". I think you're trying to read a bit too much into my post. Reread what I wrote in that sentance. While the 2005 thread is about CCP handling petitions poorly. Maltroc did say that he emailed Kieron about the exploit as the petitions he'd filed had been ignored or misunderstood by the GM who dealt with it. There are two people that have publically stated that they reported the exploit. It makes me wonder how many people reported the exploit and were ignored. I'm only pointing out that the QA on bug testing, reporting and petitions needs to be improved. You seem to be focused on some conspiracy involving CCP which has nothing to do with my post. And what I am saying is that people are taking as fact wild claims that this exploit has been going on for years, and that CCP ignored petitions about it... pointing at this thread and that post in particular. Now that you are saying that the point you were trying to make has nothing "directly" to do with the topic being discussed in this thread, that's fine. To get back on topic then "ahem", lets see the proof that this was petitioned years ago. Some mention of it, some post, a single shred of evidence will do. And no, taking the word of people that got banned for using this exploit isn't good enough to qualify as "evidence", not by a long shot. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:31:00 - [1273] I don't want this to come off as a whine, so I apologize if it does. Despite what many people believe, the high end industrialists like myself and market traders don't just generate isk while sitting on our collective rears. It takes a lot of research, spreadsheets and risky decisions to make a profit. You tend to your POS's, make sure your silos don't overflow, you stay up late at night waiting on a manufacturing job just so you can submit the other one. You open another acct or train your existing pvp'er to produce items because you simply cant use enough slots to meet demand. You look at moon mineral prices and make risky decisions, like buy and react now, or let the starbase idle for the next week. When you do get isk, you do your research and try to decide what the next venture will be. That's EvE to me and I love it. But exploits like this cheapen the effort everyone goes through. I bet the people who did this exploit would sometimes be so callous they would let the silos overflow - they had a free lunch. Its like printing isk. Did EvE not get boring over those 4 years? Was it really fun to play on cheat mode? Finally I am disappointed that CCP only found out about this 4 years later. The db queries within reach of Dr EyjoG should have indicated that the amount of advanced materials being produced did not correlate with the moons. This might have changed the way alchemy is implemented. I would like to see what percentage of the advanced materials being produced came from this exploit, and then I would like to see the 20:1 alchemy ratio be tweaked accordingly. -------------------
Bethorn	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:36:00 - [1274] All this fuss over an internet game?
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:36:00 - [1275] To be fair to the guy I doubt it even occurred to him to look for dupes. He's an economist. You have to be a MMO player to know what dupes is.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:37:00 - [1276] Originally by: Ranger 1 And no, taking the word of people that got banned for using this exploit isn't good enough to qualify as "evidence", not by a long shot. I related my experiences of reporting exploits in the past and the fact that I have had to lobby in threads to make CCP fix the exploits. What you are really saying is that my "evidence" does not qualify either. Do go on brown nosing CCP. http://obeythekitten.com/
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:37:00 - [1277] Originally by: Ranger 1 And what I am saying is that people are taking as fact wild claims that this exploit has been going on for years, and that CCP ignored petitions about it... pointing at this thread and that post in particular. Those "wild" claims have way more credibility to me than CCP has after all the screwing up they did in the past years. I am yet to see ANY claim at all proved false, in all the polemic topics that appeared in the same time period. And EVERYTIME, people like you, come desperately trying to deny what later is proved true inexorably. I don't care in which alliance the people who cheated are. Be it Morsus Mihi, BoB, Ev0ke, or whatever. What I DO care is that the people who benefited from this cheating are punished accordingly. And you know, considering CCP has all the records from all transactions in the game, it is remarkably easy to make an algorithm to trace this money. That is, if you know how to program, which unfortunately Eve's devs proved time and again they don't... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Sheila Deteia	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:41:00 - [1278] Originally by: Jinx Barker Alliances, and corporations that were involved in it need to be disbanded. Something like this would not go unnoticed in an alliance of 10,000 players, much less in something like what 500-2,000 players that were supposedly part of those involved. If not on personal level, then on CORPORATE level they are responsible, and such need to be terminated as entities. They were all complicit, if only by observing the code of silence because "it helped their alliance." Naa m8 , dont think it to be fair to punish a whole alliance and its members for something a small group of industrialists and its leaders would of kept to themselves , this would of been kept as top secret as they possibly could. This exploit have already done enough damage , it realy just needs to be corrected, smoothed over and lets just get on with the game , yea?, now the only damage that can be done , is everyone whinging and carrying on about it...its just a game, you havnt lost anything.
Atlas Oracle Minmatar Colossus Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:43:00 - [1279] I really wonder if CCP will step up and explain the full situation. I doubt they will. The ardent little fanbois will play no matter what, but reasonable consumers have a right to expect more from CCP than allowing this to happen, especially if CCP employees are involved. I have very little confidence CCP will conduct themselves well in regards to this incident going forward, but I'd love to be suprised.
Laskin Veldstar Gallente Eden Federal Recon	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:49:00 - [1280] I for one am thankful that CCP has discovered the misuse (albeit it could of been faster [Though I work tickets for an ISP for a living and can understand to a degree how fast issues get worked]). It will be interesting to see how large the economic impact is. I, like most, hope to hear some of the dirty details (if any come about). I just wanted to toss a thanks out there to CCP for doing something about a bunch of cheating *****s. Sorry if my post was redunant, I just didn't want to read through 43 pages of people whining and complaining.

jeffb GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:50:00 - [1281] CCP needs to atleast follow up the major isk trails rather than just ban the alt corps, maybe they are trying to do that right now who knows.
Soto ShinDo Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:52:00 - [1282] Edited by: Soto ShinDo on 12/12/2008 01:53:14 Originally by: iR R e t a r d I was told the Estimated Value of the exploit, roughly examined with $$$ Dollers was about 30million Dollers, 1 person admitted to making 3million Dollers from this... Congratulations. You just earned your name, ALT
cheephough Caldari Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:55:00 - [1283] Originally by: Jacque Custeau I bet the people who did this exploit would sometimes be so callous they would let the silos overflow - they had a free lunch. Its like printing isk. Did EvE not get boring over those 4 years? Was it really fun to play on cheat mode? I like doing it in Empire Earth (all your base are belong to us)
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:56:00 - [1284] Originally by: Superfailsauce Yes there were failings in picking it up. Who cares. What's done is done, instead of whining about your 4 years of minimal profit margins start looking at ways to increase those margins now. Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course.
Tanaki Arus	Posted - 2008.12.12 01:59:00 - [1285] The damage has already been done, but I'm still pretty disappointed in CCP for allowing it to happen for so long.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:01:00 - [1286] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Jinx Barker allot. While I agree with a lot of what you said please stop saying "allot" "allot" means to allocate money in a budget, the words you're looking for are "a lot". I agree, sorry, I will blame it on the late hour here. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:01:00 - [1287] Originally by: Gamer4liff Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course. You are so naive. It decreased profits for all T2 producers, because the people who did it could produce T2 almost for free IN ADDITION to selling the components. So they profitted from the T2 market AND from the T2 producers, especially ship inventors, who had to compete with prices and costs that made impossible for them to profit. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:03:00 - [1288] just posting here to say i find it hilarious some people really think CCP has no better way to 'cheat' in the game than by not acting on some weird POS bug if CCP really wanted to help their pet alliance (whoever you think it is) it wouldn't be by letting them in on an exploit and potentially ruining the economy, it would be by just running a db query in some downtime to give them an extra 500 billion or whatever, into alliance wallet isk is fake. virtual. an integer stored in a database. they can will it into existence with no trace. the conspiracy stuff is pretty stupid. -- i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:04:00 - [1289] Originally by: Braaage Originally by: Devian 666 In my past experience of trying to get CCP to fix exploits the process is as follows. * petition * get cookie cutter response * start thread to lobby the situation and petition including details and links * get cookie cutter response * ask for escalation because the gm didn't read the petition * submit bug reports with full details * have bug report sent back because it wasn't in the correct format (even though it was) None of what has happend is of any surprise after my experiences. It also doesn't surprise me that both Eris and Kieron both posted in a 2005 thread discussing this issue. Quality Assurance isn't about ignoring problems. Maybe CCP should review ISO 9001 QA standard and see what the sort of procedures that would help avoid systematic blunders. This is exactly what I was going to post, I have in the past been the first to spot a game breaking exploit. I had to scream and shout from the top of my voice after bug reporting, petitioning and basically being ignored. Eventually someone heard me that thought hey what's he on about and actually looked. At that point the TQ cluster went into immediate shutdown (they could do this cos it was straight after a big patch) and fixed. Bug reports have to be right on the button with as much evidence and screenshots otherwise most of the time the person who reads them does not understand WTF you are on about. I even took to making a video and hosting it of a particular bug because I thought there's no way I can explain this in words. Since 4 years ago bug reports were probably handled differently to now I don't know what to say, but all you people screaming at CCP have got to give them enough time to sift through 4 years of exploiting and market transactions. That in itself I reckon is going to take weeks if not months. Quoting this. CCP may like to sweep things under the carpet, but here is your problem.
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:05:00 - [1290] I am certain that REAL LIFE CASH had nothing to do with it, and that they DID NOT SELL STUFF FOR IT. Yes, it was all spent in game.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:06:00 - [1291] Originally by: Sheila Deteia Naa m8 , dont think it to be fair to punish a whole alliance and its members for something a small group of industrialists and its leaders would of kept to themselves , this would of been kept as top secret as they possibly could. This exploit have already done enough damage , it realy just needs to be corrected, smoothed over and lets just get on with the game , yea?, now the only damage that can be done , is everyone whinging and carrying on about it...its just a game, you havnt lost anything. It is fair to punish the alliances and corps if they received large sums of money coming from this exploit, and consequently benefited from it. And it is just a game, but it is a game where most of us have spent a long time, only to see our efforts turning into a joke. The guys who did it, damaged Eve economy, Eve politics, and dwarved everything conquered through hard work and merit in the game. And worse, if the results of their exploits are not accounted for and taken from them they WILL continue doing so. There are trillions of laundered ISK obtained from duped materials. This money must be seized and destroyed as well as the assets boguht with it. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:08:00 - [1292] This may be a far fetched scenario, but the people doing this could have basicaly been holding the economy of eve hostage. Even if CCP knew about it they may have figured they couldn't patch the game, or bann the exploiters until they had a reasonable solution to the economic impact. This patch being delayed, along with the introduction of alchemy is a pretty funny piece of evidence for that scenario. /tinfoil
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:10:00 - [1293] Originally by: Faife just posting here to say i find it hilarious some people really think CCP has no better way to 'cheat' in the game than by not acting on some weird POS bug if CCP really wanted to help their pet alliance (whoever you think it is) it wouldn't be by letting them in on an exploit and potentially ruining the economy, it would be by just running a db query in some downtime to give them an extra 500 billion or whatever, into alliance wallet isk is fake. virtual. an integer stored in a database. they can will it into existence with no trace. the conspiracy stuff is pretty stupid. Not everybody has the same database accesses. GMs, those that received the petitions, have very limited access. Sure if ALL CCP wanted to cheat they could do it in a myriad of ways. But that would be a ridiculous concept. So, my friend, the joke is on you. And I find it hilarious indeed. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
MinorFreak Amarr ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:10:00 - [1294] Originally by: Kessiaan After careful consideration of the situation, I believe we're being trolled, as I stated in my now-locked thread . Some unidentified guy says he got banned for exploiting Ferrogel, then the exact same day Wrangler confirms it. While I don't doubt our mysterious poster did indeed get banned for the exploit Wrangler is talking about, I really, really, REALLY have a hard time believing it went on for four years. I find it much more believable it's a glitch that was introduced with alchemy and the actual fallout will be minimal once the forum drama dries up. I agree absolutely with this sentiment. The troll who immediately cottoned on to this thread and posted that "4 years" within the first few posts probably headed right over to that slag-heap and invented that thread on the spot. his numbers don't add up at all, and the whole "voila" explanation of how it occurred is just way too far fetched. I believe it's a bunch of people seeing "4 years" and going ape****. ______________________ Best darned links ingame and out (backup)
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:11:00 - [1295] Originally by: Sheila Deteia This exploit have already done enough damage , it realy just needs to be corrected, smoothed over and lets just get on with the game , yea?, now the only damage that can be done , is everyone whinging and carrying on about it...its just a game, you havnt lost anything. How do you know I haven't lost ships and other assets to the exploiters, or alliances benefiting from the exploiters? How do you know I haven't sold GTCs (bought with RL $) to pay for some of these assets? Look at the GTC sales forum -- hundreds get sold every day. And many by alliance members involved in conflict with some of the identified exploiters. It's a game, and people play games for entertainment. They like to have at least the illusion of being able to win if they get a bit of luck and do the right things. It's understandable that many get upset when they find out that not only was the playing field not level, but it was tilted STRAIGHT up. All the effort they've expended was absolutely, positively, no if ends or buts for naught when compared to such a game breaking exploit. For some, internet spaceships are serious business.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:12:00 - [1296] Originally by: MinorFreak I agree absolutely with this sentiment. The troll who immediately cottoned on to this thread and posted that "4 years" within the first few posts probably headed right over to that slag-heap and invented that thread on the spot. his numbers don't add up at all, and the whole "voila" explanation of how it occurred is just way too far fetched. I believe it's a bunch of people seeing "4 years" and going ape****. Please show us your more accurate numbers and your proofs that show otherwise. I am in the mood to laugh. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:13:00 - [1297] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course. You are so naive. It decreased profits for all T2 producers, because the people who did it could produce T2 almost for free IN ADDITION to selling the components. So they profitted from the T2 market AND from the T2 producers, especially ship inventors, who had to compete with prices and costs that made impossible for them to profit. How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production?
Lynch Me Caldari Mentis Fidelis Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:16:00 - [1298] Everyone says 4 years, so I trust that there is a possibility that this has been going on for that long, even though I've never seen any proof (and not even the OP says anything about the 4 years). IF this has been going on for 4 years, as most of those that have posted in here have said, and now it will suddenly stop, the market might suffer just a tiny bit. Well it may be hurting and aching in terrible pain for a while. So I don't really see a complete solution in banning the accounts responsible for this, popping the towers, removing their caps, T2's, factions, wallets, banning their credit cards or even sending them to a shrink for 4 years of messing around with a market that tenths of thousands of people playing this game (game, or second-job-you-have-to-pay-for, in many cases) are dependent on. Naturally, some of what I mentioned have to, and will be applied, and enforced in this case and cases to come. Hopefully. But this does not provide a fix. If this has been going on for 4 years (that's four out of less than six years, about the age of this game), the full fix might have to include slightly increasing the overall moon quality, or adding several high end moons. That, or alchemy, which I really hope will work as expected. Or other solutions, what the hell, who's to know. Even so, here's my real problem: speculating this whole deal by increasing the reaction and thereby T2 prices will surely become a common practice both among those that have access to mass moon harvesting - independent of quality - and those that have the high end moons, as well as free traders mainly where NRDS applies, Jita players, T2 manufacturers, and many others, in 0.0 and empire. So this entire story creates an unfair advantage to them as well. (and I'm sure it has already started to happen. Also if you're not convinced, check the 60 day GTC phenomenon, which is not any sort of exploit, it's simply people taking advantage of the way money sinks work in an artificial, essentially uncontrolled and unrestricted market that suffers constant inflation due to the nature and provenience of money: a server.) OK so I know I could do the same and start running my own speculative business, but then writing this post at 4 AM wouldn't make much sense. So in the end, I don't know to what extent minerals and reactions have been manipulated - let's just hope alchemy works to fill demand. Main problem still remains greed over isk, facilitated only by external influence (and I can't blame CCP, certainly not entirely): Step #1 - a bug, followed by supposedly 4 years of ignorance (apparently no one never knew about it - I still don't get it how we know it's been happening for that long) and constant exploitation; Step #2 - resolving the bug - causes financial crisis (even if temporary), causes more greed, causes speculations and prices going or being kept up even after the demand problem has been solved. (step #3 - we get used to it or things go back to normal - either way things will eventually normalize, but the hard way, as none of this is actually necessary.) All those in a virtual world that should be somewhat idyllic for those that play the game ('cause otherwise no one would, right?), because of the mechanics and flawed nature of programming (understandable to a point), and finally topped with human greed for money. So here's my advice: keep the things you do in the game as far away as possible from external events, it's the only way to avoid any sort of crisis, and it's certainly not worth ripping off thousands of people just because you can (EVE is sufficiently connected to real life through time zone warfare, logoffski traps, isk trading, the whole GTC price boom thing, GM scandals, and who knows what else). (But this is just like telling people not to drive cars anymore, because it hurts the planet: even I keep driving around for no real reason, just because I'm in the mood. At least I've made my point. Fly safe.)
Alois Hammer Minmatar Dinochrome Brigade Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:17:00 - [1299] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course. You are so naive. It decreased profits for all T2 producers, because the people who did it could produce T2 almost for free IN ADDITION to selling the components. So they profitted from the T2 market AND from the T2 producers, especially ship inventors, who had to compete with prices and costs that made impossible for them to profit. How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? because its free. and you can dump, only so much free crap of one kind before YOU make it worthless. smart peeps expand their busines to other markets. like......T2 .. :)
Lord Frost Minmatar Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:19:00 - [1300] Edited by: Lord Frost on 12/12/2008 02:21:25 The real pain of all this is the market. You can all say that it'll ripple back to normal, but what about the past? That's what I'm talking about. The past molded the future, and just what would Eve be like now if this never existed. You can't just take it away and hope it will all be fine. The path of a fair market has been skewed so absurdly, that players, who now have fat wallets from working a fattened market, NOW have a bigger advantage. Prices will skyrocket on several t2 items and ships, and now only the rich can afford. So... yay... this exploit now makes the poorer suffer. Great... those that work and play fairly, have to work harder just to catch up to the newly "fair" market... the rich will have very little to adjust.

Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:23:00 - [1301] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 12/12/2008 02:24:41 Originally by: Alois Hammer Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course. You are so naive. It decreased profits for all T2 producers, because the people who did it could produce T2 almost for free IN ADDITION to selling the components. So they profitted from the T2 market AND from the T2 producers, especially ship inventors, who had to compete with prices and costs that made impossible for them to profit. How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? because its free. and you can dump, only so much free crap of one kind before YOU make it worthless. smart peeps expand their busines to other markets. like......T2 .. :) I don't know I mean if you have virtually infinite wealth making T2 the normal way seems like it would just be a hassle. It's a wrong assumption that they hurt T2 producers anyway because the vast, vast, majority of the advanced reactions went straight to the market, rather than being utilized directly, from what we've read here. If it was being utilized, the T2 items themselves would be the things keeping the price artificially low, rather than the reactions and components, which is where the bottleneck is now.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:23:00 - [1302] Edited by: Claire Voyant on 12/12/2008 02:23:31 Originally by: Gamer4liff How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? To hide the source of their ill-gotten gain of course. BTW, I've seen an evesearch posting from over 3 years ago where one of the known banned characters tried to bring a petition of a POS exploit to the attention of a GM and mentions that a previous petition was ignored. I ran reactions on 10 POS's for quite some time and I never saw anything like the supposed exploit, but I am leaning towards thinking there is something there and it could have been around for a long time.
Alois Hammer Minmatar Dinochrome Brigade Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:24:00 - [1303] also check date-stamps in the various forums when they were posted. i have guys posting 2 days before this was officially announced.
Ciara Daag Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:24:00 - [1304] I dont buy the four years rumor. It makes no sense. Consider this. 7 corps were involved in this and enough people in these corps were involved that they ended up banning most of their active members. This simply could not stay secret for 7 years. For instance,if I had joined one of those corps,and eventually found out about it,I would have told them to "Thats pretty much an explot,you better stop" and I would have submitted a bug report. There have actually been cases where I or others in my corp have found bugs and exploits. The first reaction is usually "hey this could come in really handy" then you realize its an exploit,and go report it. Furthermore,these things never stay secret long. Somone tells someone they "trust",and they can in fact trust that person. That person tells someone THEY trust. Eventually,that chain of trust breaks. Either someone posts it in a public forum,or makes a bug report,or just goes to far and gets caught. This happens in weeks or months,not years.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:27:00 - [1305] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 12/12/2008 02:27:17 Originally by: Claire Voyant To hide the source of their ill-gotten gain of course. Well they didn't really need to apparently, I mean how hard do you have to whack CCP in the face with something before they do something about it? Point is, we already know they were dumping the stuff directly to market, because you can see its influence on the price now.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:27:00 - [1306] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course. You are so naive. It decreased profits for all T2 producers, because the people who did it could produce T2 almost for free IN ADDITION to selling the components. So they profitted from the T2 market AND from the T2 producers, especially ship inventors, who had to compete with prices and costs that made impossible for them to profit. How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? To laudry the money? See not everybody is as stupid as ev0ke. Some people do have brains. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:30:00 - [1307] Originally by: Gamer4liff How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? Because the logistics of outfitting your corpies in full t2 finery is worth far more than a few more zeroes in your wallet. Aside from diversification. Without the infinite firehose of free t2 hulls and modules many 0.0 combatants would be drumroll purchasing gear in empire. Possibly increasing demand to the point where manufacturing supply would be a limiting factor, leading to higher margins. We'll be seeing if that is indeed the case in the coming months. I also look forward to seeing if hte "elite PvPers" remain just as elite when they start having to grind for their ships, skills, modules, GTCs...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:30:00 - [1308] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Claire Voyant To hide the source of their ill-gotten gain of course. Well they didn't really need to, I mean how hard do you have to whack CCP in the face with something before they do something about it? Point is, we already know they were dumping the stuff directly to market you can see it's influence. Man, you are thick... Now read it slowly as many times as it takes and see if you can put it inside your brain: It doesn't matter what ccp does with the alts and alt corps who are running the show. As long as you can make the money go to other accounts through sufficiently intrincated processes to dissuade the less than competent CCP employees to pursue it. Now before you answer this, please be a good boy and read the previous paragraph again at least a few times more. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:32:00 - [1309] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course. You are so naive. It decreased profits for all T2 producers, because the people who did it could produce T2 almost for free IN ADDITION to selling the components. So they profitted from the T2 market AND from the T2 producers, especially ship inventors, who had to compete with prices and costs that made impossible for them to profit. How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? To laudry the money? See not everybody is as stupid as ev0ke. Some people do have brains. Well if they were making T2 on a scale that 100% of their exploited advanced reactions were utilized I dare say they would have supplied a huge amount of it, while I find this unlikely at the very least if they did CCP eliminated a very large T2 competitor. Still, I really wish they'd find some new system to get moon minerals and whatnot.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:34:00 - [1310] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 12/12/2008 02:35:46 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Claire Voyant To hide the source of their ill-gotten gain of course. Well they didn't really need to, I mean how hard do you have to whack CCP in the face with something before they do something about it? Point is, we already know they were dumping the stuff directly to market you can see it's influence. Man, you are thick... Now read it slowly as many times as it takes and see if you can put it inside your brain: It doesn't matter what ccp does with the alts and alt corps who are running the show. As long as you can make the money go to other accounts through sufficiently intrincated processes to dissuade the less than competent CCP employees to pursue it. Now before you answer this, please be a good boy and read the previous paragraph again at least a few times more. I'm not sure what you're getting at, I never contested the fact that the vast amount of people banned were probably just alts paid for and doing the exploiting. And yeah, they obviously used money laundering methods, but I doubt direct T2 production was one of them. Originally by: Mari Katarin Originally by: Gamer4liff How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? Because the logistics of outfitting your corpies in full t2 finery is worth far more than a few more zeroes in your wallet. Aside from diversification. Without the infinite firehose of free t2 hulls and modules many 0.0 combatants would be drumroll purchasing gear in empire. Possibly increasing demand to the point where manufacturing supply would be a limiting factor, leading to higher margins. We'll be seeing if that is indeed the case in the coming months. I also look forward to seeing if hte "elite PvPers" remain just as elite when they start having to grind for their ships, skills, modules, GTCs... Fair point, though I have to wonder about the corps who weren't in major alliances.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:38:00 - [1311] Originally by: Gamer4liff Well if they were making T2 on a scale that 100% of their exploited advanced reactions were utilized I dare say they would have supplied a huge amount of it, while I find this unlikely at the very least if they did CCP eliminated a very large T2 competitor. Still, I really wish they'd find some new system to get moon minerals and whatnot. No they weren't making T2 at 100% of their capacity. That defies the whole purpose of laundering money. They were diversifying. selling some raw mateiral, selling some as T2, using a lot in their own alliances to provide free ships in exchange for high fees, exchanging it with T2 producers for other kind of goods, like capital components, etc... Use yoru imagination... Originally by: Gamer4liff I'm not sure what you're getting at, I never contested the fact that the vast amount of people banned were probably just alts paid for and doing the exploiting. And yeah, they obviously used money laundering methods, but I doubt direct T2 production was one of them. Why not. It is an exceptionally good method directly and indirectly as explained above. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
BhallSpawn	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:41:00 - [1312] If you guys are looking for transparency from ccp You won't find it.
Darteis Elosia	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:41:00 - [1313] Four more years! Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!
Aksimel	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:42:00 - [1314] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Grats on not understanding the T2 economy, the exploit increased profit margins for T2 producers, not decreased the margins. As terrible as it is we all profited from the exploit. Except for the people legitimately moon mining, of course. You are so naive. It decreased profits for all T2 producers, because the people who did it could produce T2 almost for free IN ADDITION to selling the components. So they profitted from the T2 market AND from the T2 producers, especially ship inventors, who had to compete with prices and costs that made impossible for them to profit. How can your logic always fail to account for the obvious? If they could make infinite isk with the exploit why the hell would they even bother with full T2 production? "Obviously" they did both. There is limited demand for resources used to build T2 because of the number of people with T2 bpos and the facilities and skills to build T2 items. So they sold what resources they could in that market, and used the rest to build items for which there was a much, much larger market. I think the evidence that this problem has been around for a long time is in the low profitability of moon mining over the last year or more. People setting up legitimate moon mining operations simply couldn't make money. If the market had been operating properly, this shouldn't have been the case. I've never done any moon mining, but when I overheard that it wasn't at all profitable it didn't make any sense - it didn't seem to follow the supply/demand rule - there was simultaneously very low supply and very low demand.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:45:00 - [1315] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 12/12/2008 02:45:49 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Well if they were making T2 on a scale that 100% of their exploited advanced reactions were utilized I dare say they would have supplied a huge amount of it, while I find this unlikely at the very least if they did CCP eliminated a very large T2 competitor. Still, I really wish they'd find some new system to get moon minerals and whatnot. No they weren't making T2 at 100% of their capacity. That defies the whole purpose of laundering money. They were diversifying. selling some raw mateiral, selling some as T2, using a lot in their own alliances to provide free ships in exchange for high fees, exchanging it with T2 producers for other kind of goods, like capital components, etc... Use yoru imagination... Well okay I can see that that would work if it was diversified, but I still contend that their part of T2 production probably wasn't too extreme to cancel out the benefit of the flood of cheap advanced materials. Though honestly we'll probably never know exactly the full effect they've had these last 4 years.
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:45:00 - [1316] Originally by: Gamer4liff Fair point, though I have to wonder about the corps who weren't in major alliances. Find one. It wouldn't make sense to do this for anyone but the top dogs -- otherwise your golden goose would have to deal with dread bukkake every few days. It's a cycle. Keep the top players on top, and in return you have the fewest headaches in running your operation.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:46:00 - [1317] Originally by: BhallSpawn If you guys are looking for transparency from ccp You won't find it. I am afraid that you were proven right many times over the years. I am. self-admittedly, a former CCP fan-boy. But, over the last three years CCP has been working really hard on alienating me for some reason, I don't know why, I think maybe it is because I did not pay enough subscription fees, I initially started right after beta, so I guess myself, nor others like me, really deserve any proper customer service, or honesty, from CCP and its employees, because we just idiots, and would pay our subs anyway. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:47:00 - [1318] If CCP is going to put in new high-end moons, can I get the locations please?
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:51:00 - [1319] well it wasn't gay4life I don't really care, as well anything that messes up the invention process and/or makes t2 cheaper is a plus to me. ffs just seed t2 bpos on the market already. lolsauce at paying multi-billions for bpos. (although I can hardly manage to manufacture t1 even when it is continent. I am probably not the best one to ask on industry stuff, I like the shooty shooty oh so much more)
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:52:00 - [1320] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton well it wasn't gay4life Excuse me, have we met?

Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:52:00 - [1321] Originally by: Dianabolic Orree, take it from me - it doesn't matter what you say. To some, you are guilty, to others, you are innocent, nothing you say will change that. To the rest of us, you're innocent until proven guilty / banned. Let's see, do I really need to go into all the reasons why people would automatically assume that BoB was being involved in this? Do you not remember your own past history with this game, and the crap that you've been found guilty of doing? ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
durek magaliese	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:52:00 - [1322] I'm still Loling....4 years? XD --- Cahn aye haz ur stuhf?
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:53:00 - [1323] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 12/12/2008 02:53:03 Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton well it wasn't gay4life Excuse me, have we met? Maybe he wants a date with "HotEVEBoi22" - you should accommodate man. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Vincent Aran Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:53:00 - [1324] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: MyOwnSling Any word as to the economic impact? Well if what is said is true then most who have ever bought T2 equipment have benefited by slightly decreased costs maybe? Slade So you're saying T2 ships should have been more expensive had this exploit never existed?(not sure it's the right way to say what I want to say, I'm french)????? This game is getting more and more boring by the hours...
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:53:00 - [1325] umm...welcom to the new age of gamming.. maga cheating! what can you say now we have alliances who will never be messed with do to this exploit! i say ccp should close all alliances and restart them fresh. if this won't be done and we know it won't well then the alliances that are not involed in this should have there space resorses beffed up so they can catch up.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:54:00 - [1326] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton well it wasn't gay4life Excuse me, have we met? look them up in game.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:55:00 - [1327] Originally by: Vincent Aran So you're saying T2 ships should have been more expensive had this exploit never existed?(not sure it's the right way to say what I want to say, I'm french)????? YES. Most of the T2 should have cost more ISK, allot of it was selling on 10% or less margin, and some of it was selling.... bellow reasonable cost. Which should tell you something about the ridiculous things that were going on. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:56:00 - [1328] Originally by: OffBeaT umm...welcom to the new age of gamming.. maga cheating! what can you say now we have alliances who will never be messed with do to this exploit! i say ccp should close all alliances and restart them fresh. if this won't be done and we know it won't well then the alliances that are not involed in this should have there space resorses beffed up so they can catch up. I would say reset ALL of 0.0. Simply wipe it all out, all stations that were built, all infrastructure, everything, and dump everyone in Empire.
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2008.12.12 02:59:00 - [1329] Originally by: Jinx Barker I initially started right after beta, so I guess myself, nor others like me, really deserve any proper customer service, or honesty, from CCP and its employees, because we just idiots, and would pay our subs anyway. Put yourself in their place. There is no 'winning' here. Whatever they do there will be plenty of unhappy people. CCP is having to deal with the fallout of no growth this year. A combination of nearly no new features, skyrocketing GTC prices (some of which may be explained by a recent popularity of this exploit), nanonerf and ghost training nerf have resulted in an absolutely flat playerbase this year. Going out with pitchforks and torches may result in a drastic current player count haircut. Not going out with pitchforks and torches may also result in a slight player count haircut and bad press wet blanket on future growth. That's the last thing CCP needs going into an Atari deal and pondering how to pay for the new hardware infrastructure and fishtank. We old farts demonstrated that we're willing to stay no matter how badly we're treated. We're codependent. They owe us nothing. Giving us nothing has been the right choice before and will continue to be the right choice in the future. However, as I've posted before -- that is not necessarily the attitude new players are going to come in with. And the future is growth and new players, not us. I'm still hoping CCP will turn over a new leaf and deal with this situation in a way which demonstrates 'zero tolerance' to game breaking cheats.
Roymundo	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:00:00 - [1330] Originally by: Delos Korelian Originally by: OffBeaT umm...welcom to the new age of gamming.. maga cheating! what can you say now we have alliances who will never be messed with do to this exploit! i say ccp should close all alliances and restart them fresh. if this won't be done and we know it won't well then the alliances that are not involed in this should have there space resorses beffed up so they can catch up. I would say reset ALL of 0.0. Simply wipe it all out, all stations that were built, all infrastructure, everything, and dump everyone in Empire. thats a pretty good idea. get rid of all the powerblocs that only got this powerfull through corruption and cheating. be interesting to see the new landscape after the wipe though. pure chaos. imagine! all of 0.0 acting as a fw area till it gets settled.

Deimi	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:00:00 - [1331] I guess we all agree that this have unbalanced the game and damaged the way we play and trade. Yet several days before Wranglers announcement a wild trading in Ferrogel already had started, anyone that visited Jita the last two days have seen the bragging about profits in local there. (And it didn't take long before it started to spill over into speculation on T2 ships and equipment.) And yes for the tinfoil gang that have been positing here I repeat the link to the So Long, and Thanks For All the F.i.s.h ^^ post again, and suggest you read it. The damage done already might be hard to correct in a hurry without innocent players getting caught in between, and that should not happen so I accept the idea that investigation things of the past might take time. But we don't see any attempts on damage control of the current situation either. I really hope the guys at CCP do work overtime to address this fact, I cant imagine any worse Christmas present than just shrug shoulders and leave things alone pretending its 'business as usual'. Is it a new forum rule. That for everyone posting something you don't agree on. You should accuse them of being a troll? ;)
Vincent Aran Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:02:00 - [1332] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Vincent Aran So you're saying T2 ships should have been more expensive had this exploit never existed?(not sure it's the right way to say what I want to say, I'm french)????? YES. Most of the T2 should have cost more ISK, allot of it was selling on 10% or less margin, and some of it was selling.... bellow reasonable cost. Which should tell you something about the ridiculous things that were going on. ...By ridiculous things you mean fun things right? I guess it all depends on how you look at it. But I guess it's true that bigger corporations/alliances would have taken advantage of this a hell of a lot more than small ones, which would greatly affect the natural balance of the universe... Like a fly eating a spider, too cool to care why it's doing it, better watch and enjoy the show :)
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:06:00 - [1333] Originally by: Deimi I guess we all agree that this have unbalanced the game and damaged the way we play and trade. Yet several days before Wranglers announcement a wild trading in Ferrogel already had started, anyone that visited Jita the last two days have seen the bragging about profits in local there. (And it didn't take long before it started to spill over into speculation on T2 ships and equipment.) And yes for the tinfoil gang that have been positing here I repeat the link to the So Long, and Thanks For All the F.i.s.h ^^ post again, and suggest you read it. The damage done already might be hard to correct in a hurry without innocent players getting caught in between, and that should not happen so I accept the idea that investigation things of the past might take time. But we don't see any attempts on damage control of the current situation either. I really hope the guys at CCP do work overtime to address this fact, I cant imagine any worse Christmas present than just shrug shoulders and leave things alone pretending its 'business as usual'. There is a reason why the Ferrogel trading took place before the Wranglers announcement, the rumors were circulating through the alliance(s) that shall remain unnamed... but we all know who they are, that the investigation was taking place. It was as much as given, taking into account the posts on Kugu's blog copied from the alliance forums, such things as: " tomorrow a number of my accounts will be banned" and the reactions of "do they know about the rest of us?" It was simply the last free for all, like what happens in the White House now, you know, "rob everything thats not nailed down" mentality. Or what happened at many other Enron like corporations that basically stole the money from the working folk, a massive bleeding of resources to get every bit of ISK they can. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:07:00 - [1334] Originally by: Roymundo Originally by: Delos Korelian Originally by: OffBeaT umm...welcom to the new age of gamming.. maga cheating! what can you say now we have alliances who will never be messed with do to this exploit! i say ccp should close all alliances and restart them fresh. if this won't be done and we know it won't well then the alliances that are not involed in this should have there space resorses beffed up so they can catch up. I would say reset ALL of 0.0. Simply wipe it all out, all stations that were built, all infrastructure, everything, and dump everyone in Empire. thats a pretty good idea. get rid of all the powerblocs that only got this powerfull through corruption and cheating. be interesting to see the new landscape after the wipe though. pure chaos. imagine! all of 0.0 acting as a fw area till it gets settled. And then promptly loose a lot of players. This idea makes you look less then smart. I do not codone cheating in any way, and it sickens me that people actually do cheat in games, but that how it is. It is incaft a lot of people that did not use this bug, and a lot of folks who have got where they are on merrit. CCP have probarlty been researching a lot about this before they did anything about it. And it culminated in this. Lests face it CCP is interested in its well being, and that is EVE, so lets wait and see what happens. At least the cheater stations is gone and some idiots are banned.
Vincent Aran Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:11:00 - [1335] Edited by: Vincent Aran on 12/12/2008 03:14:43 Originally by: Jinx Barker It was simply the last free for all, like what happens in the White House now, you know, "rob everything thats not nailed down" mentality. Or what happened at many other Enron like corporations that basically stole the money from the working folk, a massive bleeding of resources to get every bit of ISK they can. Except unlike what happened to other companies like Enron no one will lose their lives because of this exploit... I know the EVE economy system is meant to reflect the real world system but there are limits to comparing one with the other.
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:12:00 - [1336] Edited by: OffBeaT on 12/12/2008 03:15:32 Edited by: OffBeaT on 12/12/2008 03:14:34 i guess i would also like to add that mabe to calm us hard working grind eve gammers the leaders of all the alliances in game should state public that they and there alliance was not envolved in said cheating.. someone who has respect on this from or somone from eve radieo should make a call for this.. i think eve gammers have a right to here from them!
Deimi	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:15:00 - [1337] Originally by: Jinx Barker There is a reason why the Ferrogel trading took place before the Wranglers announcement, the rumors were circulating through the alliance(s) that shall remain unnamed... but we all know who they are, that the investigation was taking place. It was as much as given, taking into account the posts on Kugu's blog copied from the alliance forums, such things as: " tomorrow a number of my accounts will be banned" and the reactions of "do they know about the rest of us?" It was simply the last free for all, like what happens in the White House now, you know, "rob everything thats not nailed down" mentality. Or what happened at many other Enron like corporations that basically stole the money from the working folk, a massive bleeding of resources to get every bit of ISK they can. Thank you Jinx Barker, you confirmed what I was thinking, that the information was leaked and certain players took advantage of the inside information they had. That is the reason I hinted we need some action taken on that part as well. In the real world we have recently seen stockmarkets close when the recession started. I certainly don't suggest that for Eve, it would kill the game. But the trading these last days was indeed the 'last free robbery' these players did to us others, and goddammit if CCP let them win this last score also. Is it a new forum rule. That for everyone posting something you don't agree on. You should accuse them of being a troll? ;)
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:15:00 - [1338] All I can say is... Poor economics professor... Has to do all his calculations afresh.
Emyrxr	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:17:00 - [1339] Originally by: Roymundo Originally by: Delos Korelian Originally by: OffBeaT umm...welcom to the new age of gamming.. maga cheating! what can you say now we have alliances who will never be messed with do to this exploit! i say ccp should close all alliances and restart them fresh. if this won't be done and we know it won't well then the alliances that are not involed in this should have there space resorses beffed up so they can catch up. I would say reset ALL of 0.0. Simply wipe it all out, all stations that were built, all infrastructure, everything, and dump everyone in Empire. thats a pretty good idea. get rid of all the powerblocs that only got this powerfull through corruption and cheating. be interesting to see the new landscape after the wipe though. pure chaos. imagine! all of 0.0 acting as a fw area till it gets settled. ok i am sorry but don't you think that is unfair for all the people who have worked hard and put isk into that infrastructure in 0.0? i mean that is all the sweat and blood of work of alliances.. Also who knows how much isk... so what would that gain us other then very angry people wanting their isk/effort back?
Farouq Rizer	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:18:00 - [1340] Edited by: Farouq Rizer on 12/12/2008 03:18:20 Can you imagine how many people payed real money for GTCs and sold them for ISK that came out of nothing? CCP better track down every GTC transaction and charge 35$ for every GTC that was payed with exploited ISK to those who were caught.

Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:18:00 - [1341] Originally by: Vincent Aran Originally by: Jinx Barker It was simply the last free for all, like what happens in the White House now, you know, "rob everything thats not nailed down" mentality. Or what happened at many other Enron like corporations that basically stole the money from the working folk, a massive bleeding of resources to get every bit of ISK they can. Except unlike what happened to other companies like Enron no one will lose their lives because of this exploit... I know the EVE economy system is meant to reflect the reald world system but there are limits to comparing one with the other. Oh I wholeheartedly agree that comparisons between EVE and RL are rather lame. But, in this case I did not say that EVE reflects real life, I just compared similar mechanics. Lets put it this way, if I knew I was investigated, and that I am caught, and that my accounts will be banned/frozen, I will do everything in my power to maximize the ill-gotten gains, and distribute them as far and wide as possible in the hopes that the investigating party will simply not get to it all, and I would have enough left over to laugh all the way to the bank. Organized criminals do it, embezzlers do it, cheaters of all sort of ilk do it, no reason why the same practice would not apply to EVE. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:20:00 - [1342] Whilst we're on the subject of game-threatening bugs, can we also remove that horrible "ghost-training" bug, please? Oh wait, you already took care of that travesty. nvm.
Vincent Aran Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:25:00 - [1343] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Vincent Aran Originally by: Jinx Barker It was simply the last free for all, like what happens in the White House now, you know, "rob everything thats not nailed down" mentality. Or what happened at many other Enron like corporations that basically stole the money from the working folk, a massive bleeding of resources to get every bit of ISK they can. Except unlike what happened to other companies like Enron no one will lose their lives because of this exploit... I know the EVE economy system is meant to reflect the reald world system but there are limits to comparing one with the other. Oh I wholeheartedly agree that comparisons between EVE and RL are rather lame. But, in this case I did not say that EVE reflects real life, I just compared similar mechanics. Lets put it this way, if I knew I was investigated, and that I am caught, and that my accounts will be banned/frozen, I will do everything in my power to maximize the ill-gotten gains, and distribute them as far and wide as possible in the hopes that the investigating party will simply not get to it all, and I would have enough left over to laugh all the way to the bank. Organized criminals do it, embezzlers do it, cheaters of all sort of ilk do it, no reason why the same practice would not apply to EVE. Keep in ming here I'm not a big know-it-all when it comes to EVE economy system, I've been playing since december 06 and NEVER wasted more than 2-3 hours/month in the forums so I don't know how big this really is(does anyone here really do know how big or small this whole thing really is )but it seems to me that this exploit, as bad as it is, in reality only had a small affect on how people play the game.
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:27:00 - [1344] Originally by: Emyrxr Originally by: Delos Korelian I would say reset ALL of 0.0. Simply wipe it all out, all stations that were built, all infrastructure, everything, and dump everyone in Empire. ok i am sorry but don't you think that is unfair for all the people who have worked hard and put isk into that infrastructure in 0.0? i mean that is all the sweat and blood of work of alliances.. Also who knows how much isk... so what would that gain us other then very angry people wanting their isk/effort back? I know exactly what you mean there buddy. But, the problem is that I do not think for a second that it was just poor *******s from 3 alliances and some 70 characters doing it. From the turn on the markets in the last couple of years I would guess a fair number of alliances was doing this, the alliances in question and the 70 alts just happened to be caught due to a disgruntled player blowing a whistle. By wiping out 0.0 CCP will show that they are not afraid of "bold" moves, and are ready to cut and slash anything that is even remotely tainted by exploiters. By same logic, of course, they would have to wipe out all the T2 ships which were built with tainted materials from the last few years, but that is just not feasible. The only valid action is to destroy what has certainly been tainted, a 0.0 infrastructure, where most of the exploited ISK went to. So, yes, I believe it will upset allot of BOB, Goons, AAA and whoever else, and I am sure they will recover, and retake the space. But it will be a cleansing, which we certainly need now, taking into account the massive amounts of ISK exploited and poured into the system.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:31:00 - [1345] Originally by: Tasty Bit Whilst we're on the subject of game-threatening bugs, can we also remove that horrible "ghost-training" bug, please? Oh wait, you already took care of that travesty. nvm. Yeop. "Ghost Training" a big bad bug, but, free ISK, "it's all good, we just found out a week ago." Problem is I never saw "POS ISK EXPLOIT" feature in the EVE Player Guide, I sure as hell seen "The Skill Continues to train even if the account is deactivated" aka "Ghost Training" though. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:45:00 - [1346] Edited by: OffBeaT on 12/12/2008 03:46:52 this is what the eve gammers all wont i would think.. that is a callout to the alliances to state they have not gained by this exploit. they did not have anyway of gaining from members who where in there allinace who did these exploits. they should also after stating these things be investagated buy ccp to right the game to us. knowone is saying shut down the allianes becouse we all know this cant be done but mabe thouse cought playing around in this exploit should get fined or have some stations took away. i think ccp has already been taking statioins from them but just not saying from who.
Sheila Deteia	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:46:00 - [1347] Originally by: Etho Demerzel It is fair to punish the alliances and corps if they received large sums of money coming from this exploit, and consequently benefited from it.[/quote I disagree , mayb the people actualy doing it need a punishment , but not the members that had no idea, after all , they make up the majority of the Corp / alliance. you say so yourself in a round about way > Originally by: Etho Demerzel And it is just a game, but it is a game where most of us have spent a long time, only to see our efforts turning into a joke. Those unsuspecting members of the guilty Corp/Alliance also dont deserve to see their efforts turning into a joke.
Zaafir	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:49:00 - [1348] I am glad to see the whining has settled down. Perhaps we can get to stage 7 soon. 1.SHOCK & DENIAL 2.PAIN & GUILT 3.ANGER & BARGAINING 4."DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS 5.THE UPWARD TURN 6.RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH 7.ACCEPTANCE & HOPE I am sorry for anyone that gets angered that I am not upset about this exploit getting taken care of today after alleged years of misuse. I am upset that I didn't see the signs yesturday when all the T2 ships started disappearing in the major hubs. Had to spend a lot more purchasing ships today over what I would have paid even a week ago. I am confident that my purchases will payout a great ROI this weekend. Does that make me guilty of exploiting an exploit?
Argyll Branas	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:52:00 - [1349] Sounds like BS to me...they told us nothing about nothing. No details on anything and are trying to come off as our saviors. I think that is a CCP scam to make them appear strong and in charge hence the total lack of details.
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:53:00 - [1350] Edited by: OffBeaT on 12/12/2008 03:54:14 we all know that most of the bigger alliances where in on this exploit so common i agree with you that the damage is even accross the playing feild with the allianceses.. its the small alliances that got realy held back and cheated with this exploit!

Sheila Deteia	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:58:00 - [1351] yea sure , the exploit has harmed EVE , blaa blaa. but whats done is done , the real threat to EVE now is all those that wont let up. This is already bad press for EVE and the game you love so much will be destroyed buy you , the whinger. You "dont" want to know the truth , you prob couldnt handle the truth , EVE might not be able to handle the truth.
Ekram Riz Minmatar Wyland-Yutani Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.12 03:58:00 - [1352] KIA
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:01:00 - [1353] Originally by: Farouq Rizer Edited by: Farouq Rizer on 12/12/2008 03:18:20 Can you imagine how many people payed real money for GTCs and sold them for ISK that came out of nothing? CCP better track down every GTC transaction and charge 35$ for every GTC that was payed with exploited ISK to those who were caught. Just so we're clear, they weren't printing ISK, they were printing goods. Those goods could be sold for ISK, but they did not create any ISK in and of itself. Whatever amount of ISK in the universe is the same with or without the exploit, the only difference is that there's more <stuff> than there should have been. What they did was deflate the value of ISK for all production goods, which is a good thing for you and I because we could buy more <stuff> with our ISK. It would be a bad thing if you were in the market for rare goods however (anything other than T1 meta 0 and T2) because there's a more finite supply of those goods and these exploiters could acquire an otherwise unfair share of the ISK in the universe - basically they could pay more for those items and drove up the price as a result. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf
Doc Agnostic	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:06:00 - [1354] By wiping out 0.0 CCP will show that they are not afraid of "bold" moves, and are ready to cut and slash anything that is even remotely tainted by exploiters. By same logic, of course, they would have to wipe out all the T2 ships which were built with tainted materials from the last few years, but that is just not feasible. The only valid action is to destroy what has certainly been tainted, a 0.0 infrastructure, where most of the exploited ISK went to. So, yes, I believe it will upset allot of BOB, Goons, AAA and whoever else... A) Everyone in 0.0 was not involved. B) Sorry I blew up your macromining hulk in .8 sec empire space C) Maybe CCP will let moon minerals drop in all the endless, repetitions of the same old mission you empire alts run. That would fix it too. D) If being in empire makes you this bitter, try 0.0 with your main again.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:08:00 - [1355] Originally by: Sheila Deteia I disagree , mayb the people actualy doing it need a punishment , but not the members that had no idea, after all , they make up the majority of the Corp / alliance. you say so yourself in a round about way. Those unsuspecting members of the guilty Corp/Alliance also dont deserve to see their efforts turning into a joke. I didn't say anything about the grunts. The people in charge of any alliance are another story completely. You can't be that blind. If you accept large quantities of money without asking where it is coming from you are guilty of negligence and have no defense when you are dragged into the mud with the perpetrators, even if you didn't take any active role on it. The money an assets gained through this method must be traced and destroyed. The CEOs and directors of the corps and alliances involved and all accounts that can be traced to them should be banned. You can leave the rest of teh alliances and remaining assets and money in place, and let the fittest survive. Quote: yea sure , the exploit has harmed EVE , blaa blaa. but whats done is done , the real threat to EVE now is all those that wont let up. This is already bad press for EVE and the game you love so much will be destroyed buy you , the whinger. You "dont" want to know the truth , you prob couldnt handle the truth , EVE might not be able to handle the truth. No, the real threat in Eve is the money that is still there perpetuating the problems created by this exploit. You either are involved in this and want to dissuade people from going after you, or you are a naive CCP fanboy withotu a clue about the reality. It is CCP duty to fix this mess. And it is our right to scream, whine, make negative PR and whatever we see fit if they don't do it and fast. You on the other hand have a duty with yourself: to take your foot from your mouth. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:09:00 - [1356] Originally by: Sheila Deteia yea sure , the exploit has harmed EVE , blaa blaa. but whats done is done , the real threat to EVE now is all those that wont let up. This is already bad press for EVE and the game you love so much will be destroyed buy you , the whinger. You "dont" want to know the truth , you prob couldnt handle the truth , EVE might not be able to handle the truth. What, you work for CCP or something? CCP needs a damn wake up call, because sure as hell they seem to have had their heads up their collective behind for at least two years, because that is how long the T2 markets have been seriously imbalanced. Instead of concentrating on useless crap, and trying to squeeze every last dollar out of players by canceling unsubed training, they should have been paying their oh-so-often-exalted bug hunter teams. There are a large number of issues in EVE that current CCP team has been simply ignoring, sweeping under the rug, not seeing, or frankly did not care enough to see. POS and POS mechanics needed to be looked at for years, I have been screaming about it till a few months ago for at least 3 years, till I just gave up in disgust, after CCP told CSM that overhauling POS System was, and I quote: "too much work." I am 100% certain that should CCP have listened to all the players on forums actually talking about weirdness of POS the difficulty of maintenance, the bugs and issues of the moon mining, then they would have discovered this damn bug long time ago. But, what they did is simply ignored POS. They made all the positive noises on forums, but when the time cam to actually do something they kept postponing anything and everything to do with POS and POS mechanics, and this is the end result - complacency leads to things like this, nothing else. So, yea bad press, perhaps it will move them into action on number of things. You know, POS should follow KISS rule: KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. Otherwise this is exactly what we get, free ISK exploits. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Alois Hammer Minmatar Dinochrome Brigade Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:09:00 - [1357] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Farouq Rizer Edited by: Farouq Rizer on 12/12/2008 03:18:20 Can you imagine how many people payed real money for GTCs and sold them for ISK that came out of nothing? CCP better track down every GTC transaction and charge 35$ for every GTC that was payed with exploited ISK to those who were caught. Just so we're clear, they weren't printing ISK, they were printing goods. Those goods could be sold for ISK, but they did not create any ISK in and of itself. Whatever amount of ISK in the universe is the same with or without the exploit, the only difference is that there's more <stuff> than there should have been. What they did was deflate the value of ISK for all production goods, which is a good thing for you and I because we could buy more <stuff> with our ISK. It would be a bad thing if you were in the market for rare goods however (anything other than T1 meta 0 and T2) because there's a more finite supply of those goods and these exploiters could acquire an otherwise unfair share of the ISK in the universe - basically they could pay more for those items and drove up the price as a result. but also by artificially deflating the market they now driven the smaller manufacturers out of business by undercutting to the point of devaluing items. which is bad bad business. basically he who gets free stuff makes more free stuff and gets all the isk with none of the work
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:12:00 - [1358] Originally by: Verite Rendition Just so we're clear, they weren't printing ISK, they were printing goods. Those goods could be sold for ISK, but they did not create any ISK in and of itself. Whatever amount of ISK in the universe is the same with or without the exploit, the only difference is that there's more <stuff> than there should have been. What they did was deflate the value of ISK for all production goods, which is a good thing for you and I because we could buy more <stuff> with our ISK. It would be a bad thing if you were in the market for rare goods however (anything other than T1 meta 0 and T2) because there's a more finite supply of those goods and these exploiters could acquire an otherwise unfair share of the ISK in the universe - basically they could pay more for those items and drove up the price as a result. Untrue. Although I do believe that most of their activities involved only creating materials and industrial products from it, and therefore induce a deflationary trend, which is by the way veru perceptible in Eve's market, I am quite sure that it has ocurred to them, as it would to me, to just produce T2 ships to blow, in order to profit from insurance directly. As I said earlier the key of laundering money is to diversify... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:17:00 - [1359] Edited by: Delos Korelian on 12/12/2008 04:20:02 Originally by: Doc Agnostic By wiping out 0.0 CCP will show that they are not afraid of "bold" moves, and are ready to cut and slash anything that is even remotely tainted by exploiters. By same logic, of course, they would have to wipe out all the T2 ships which were built with tainted materials from the last few years, but that is just not feasible. The only valid action is to destroy what has certainly been tainted, a 0.0 infrastructure, where most of the exploited ISK went to. So, yes, I believe it will upset allot of BOB, Goons, AAA and whoever else... A) Everyone in 0.0 was not involved. B) Sorry I blew up your macromining hulk in .8 sec empire space C) Maybe CCP will let moon minerals drop in all the endless, repetitions of the same old mission you empire alts run. That would fix it too. D) If being in empire makes you this bitter, try 0.0 with your main again. You calling me an alt? You, a new toon with 3 posts? I am sorry which alt are you Ev0Ke or KIA? Oh, and I lived in 0.0. and I lived in Low Sec. Nothing fun in 0.0 when big boys hog all the "ISK exploiting POS and moons." I guess we know now how they build their power blocs. And low sec is nothing at all a wasted space, a no man's land that serves nothing. I was safer in 0.0 than in a .3, another awesome idea that went to hell in a hand basket.
Noriko Rei	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:26:00 - [1360] CCP has fixed the exploit. CCP has banned numerous accounts, and more will likely follow, based on conclusive evidence of directly utilizing a bug for gain. CCP has destroyed every POS verifiably involved in the matter. The game will move forward. Prices will go up and folks won't like it, but prices can't rise above what the market will bear, or goods simply won't be sold. The market will balance itself under these new conditions without an influx of materials pulled out of thin air. It is reasonable to expect CCP to correct the matter as far as ensuring it cannot continue and punishing those who clearly, willfully abused the game. It is also reasonable to question how this could've slipped through the cracks for four years. It is unreasonable, however, to expect that CCP can (or should) punish everyone who conceivably benefited from this problem, as that would include every player who has ever purchased T2 equipment; your costs were lowered overall by an influx of "free" materials. What I find most boggling is the fact that EVE has a dedicated economist who didn't spot this. Perhaps CCP should hire or assign employees to periodically audit corporation and alliance finances to identify such egregious abuses in the future. I also find it hard to believe that the people taking advantage of this broken game mechanic for so long didn't brag to their friends. Those people who knew it was happening may benefit the most, as they are equally guilty for allowing such activity to continue without notifying CCP, yet they cannot be conclusively linked to the wrongdoing itself. While many are quick to lambast CCP for the current situation, I presume there were a great many players who sold their integrity over the past four years for a few kickbacks from the direct offenders. I'd like to thank CCP for executing justice as swiftly as possible and fixing the exploit so this can't happen again.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:28:00 - [1361] Originally by: Noriko Rei CCP has fixed the exploit. CCP has banned numerous accounts, and more will likely follow, based on conclusive evidence of directly utilizing a bug for gain. CCP has destroyed every POS verifiably involved in the matter. The game will move forward. Prices will go up and folks won't like it, but prices can't rise above what the market will bear, or goods simply won't be sold. The market will balance itself under these new conditions without an influx of materials pulled out of thin air. It is reasonable to expect CCP to correct the matter as far as ensuring it cannot continue and punishing those who clearly, willfully abused the game. It is also reasonable to question how this could've slipped through the cracks for four years. It is unreasonable, however, to expect that CCP can (or should) punish everyone who conceivably benefited from this problem, as that would include every player who has ever purchased T2 equipment; your costs were lowered overall by an influx of "free" materials. What I find most boggling is the fact that EVE has a dedicated economist who didn't spot this. Perhaps CCP should hire or assign employees to periodically audit corporation and alliance finances to identify such egregious abuses in the future. I also find it hard to believe that the people taking advantage of this broken game mechanic for so long didn't brag to their friends. Those people who knew it was happening may benefit the most, as they are equally guilty for allowing such activity to continue without notifying CCP, yet they cannot be conclusively linked to the wrongdoing itself. While many are quick to lambast CCP for the current situation, I presume there were a great many players who sold their integrity over the past four years for a few kickbacks from the direct offenders. I'd like to thank CCP for executing justice as swiftly as possible and fixing the exploit so this can't happen again. And Santa Claus will save us all, this Dec 25th. Now go to your dad and tell him to explain to you hw you were born. Please, there should be a minimum age to post in these threads... PS. If you are not a 12 year old boy, I really pity you. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:29:00 - [1362] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs While I may be missing the topic, if CCP really has any form of effective transactional rollback capability for their databases, the missing market history could be very easily explained by rolling back the market transactions by offending parties sales (removing the ISK they gained), without affecting the people who actually bought the ferrogel (which is a separate transaction). If this is the case, then the missing market history just shows how deep this rabbit hole of an exploit runs. If the reported time frame is true, I don't think that most people maintain transaction logs dating back over four years.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:33:00 - [1363] Originally by: Qordel If the reported time frame is true, I don't think that most people maintain transaction logs dating back over four years. They should... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Swirler Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:34:00 - [1364] Ok, I want my entire alliance back, ships, towers, everything. Lotka Volterra Goon Muppets! We'll get you!! " You will pay the price for your lack of vision." - Emperor Palpatine. Between Life and Death, there is Cryosleep
RedLion Caldari State Constructions	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:34:00 - [1365] Over 70 accounts banned :S I hope non of those were innocent. Also seriously, what is up with it being reported and CCP fail yet again to take responsibility? Anyway, let's hope CCP learns from this and sees that the economic system is totally skewed. The whole dysprosium **** is ridiculous. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Noriko Rei	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:34:00 - [1366] Originally by: Etho Demerzel And Santa Claus will save us all, this Dec 25th. Now go to your dad and tell him to explain to you hw you were born. Please, there should be a minimum age to post in these threads... PS. If you are not a 12 year old boy, I really pity you. Thomas Jefferson once said that the reasonable recourse against injustice is to correct the injustice; no one can undo all of the damage that may have been caused by it. The expectations of many in this thread are unreasonable at best and absolutely absurd at worst. If you cannot move forward productively, perhaps you should quit playing.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:41:00 - [1367] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 04:42:20 Originally by: Noriko Rei Thomas Jefferson once said that the reasonable recourse against injustice is to correct the injustice; no one can undo all of the damage that may have been caused by it. No, ALL the damage can't be undone. A lot of it can, though. And what has been done up to this point does not even get close to what can reasonably be done. Quote: The expectations of many in this thread are unreasonable at best and absolutely absurd at worst. If you cannot move forward productively, perhaps you should quit playing. Some expectations are indeed childish: those of the guys who unrealisticaly want a server reset and yours, that CCP will solve everything optimally by themselves without any kind of pressure from us. CCP, as most companies in this world, already proved that they will do as little as possible to correct their own mistakes. The only thing that determines how little is enough is the playerbase's pressure. Thus, considering you are not being of any help at all to SOLVE the problem, adding your Pollyanna thoughts to this thread, I recommend you to please take your foot from your mouth and go on your way. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:43:00 - [1368] Originally by: Mari Katarin Originally by: Jinx Barker I initially started right after beta, so I guess myself, nor others like me, really deserve any proper customer service, or honesty, from CCP and its employees, because we just idiots, and would pay our subs anyway. Put yourself in their place. There is no 'winning' here. Whatever they do there will be plenty of unhappy people. CCP is having to deal with the fallout of no growth this year. A combination of nearly no new features, skyrocketing GTC prices (some of which may be explained by a recent popularity of this exploit), nanonerf and ghost training nerf have resulted in an absolutely flat playerbase this year. Going out with pitchforks and torches may result in a drastic current player count haircut. Not going out with pitchforks and torches may also result in a slight player count haircut and bad press wet blanket on future growth. That's the last thing CCP needs going into an Atari deal and pondering how to pay for the new hardware infrastructure and fishtank. We old farts demonstrated that we're willing to stay no matter how badly we're treated. We're codependent. They owe us nothing. Giving us nothing has been the right choice before and will continue to be the right choice in the future. However, as I've posted before -- that is not necessarily the attitude new players are going to come in with. And the future is growth and new players, not us. I'm still hoping CCP will turn over a new leaf and deal with this situation in a way which demonstrates 'zero tolerance' to game breaking cheats. I am an old fart, and I promise you that I wont stay if this doesn't gets fixed properly. Bans are NOTHING, fixes NOTHING of the impact this have had. Eve is no longer a "game" untill this is properly fixed. And I mean PROPERLY, doing their outmost to reestablish the game balance. I would rather play Ludo, at least it's not flawed like this.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:46:00 - [1369] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Roymundo Originally by: Delos Korelian Originally by: OffBeaT umm...welcom to the new age of gamming.. maga cheating! what can you say now we have alliances who will never be messed with do to this exploit! i say ccp should close all alliances and restart them fresh. if this won't be done and we know it won't well then the alliances that are not involed in this should have there space resorses beffed up so they can catch up. Another idiot alt post...show your face wuzzy. I would say reset ALL of 0.0. Simply wipe it all out, all stations that were built, all infrastructure, everything, and dump everyone in Empire. thats a pretty good idea. get rid of all the powerblocs that only got this powerfull through corruption and cheating. be interesting to see the new landscape after the wipe though. pure chaos. imagine! all of 0.0 acting as a fw area till it gets settled. And then promptly loose a lot of players. This idea makes you look less then smart. I do not codone cheating in any way, and it sickens me that people actually do cheat in games, but that how it is. It is incaft a lot of people that did not use this bug, and a lot of folks who have got where they are on merrit. CCP have probarlty been researching a lot about this before they did anything about it. And it culminated in this. Lests face it CCP is interested in its well being, and that is EVE, so lets wait and see what happens. At least the cheater stations is gone and some idiots are banned.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:50:00 - [1370] Originally by: Apaco lypse Originally by: Qordel Originally by: Van Krakien Edited by: Van Krakien on 10/12/2008 23:18:41 quick, get a 700 billion isk bailout for the t2 carebears! I hate to break it to you but the bailout total in America is not 700b but (so far) 7.36 trillion. uhh i think they forgot a few numbers... TOTAL 7361917 Erm. No. "In Millions". Meaning 7,361,917 * 1,000,000 = 7.361917 trillion.

Noriko Rei	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:50:00 - [1371] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 04:42:20 Originally by: Noriko Rei Thomas Jefferson once said that the reasonable recourse against injustice is to correct the injustice; no one can undo all of the damage that may have been caused by it. No, ALL the damage can't be undone. A lot of it can, though. And what has been done up to this point does not even get close to what can reasonably be done. Quote: The expectations of many in this thread are unreasonable at best and absolutely absurd at worst. If you cannot move forward productively, perhaps you should quit playing. Some expectations are indeed childish: those of the guys who unrealisticaly want a server reset and yours, that CCP will solve everything optimally by themselves without any kind of pressure from us. CCP, as most companies in this world, already proved that they will do as little as possible to correct their own mistakes. The only thing that determines how little is enough is the playerbase's pressure. Thus, considering you are not being of any help at all to SOLVE the problem, adding your Pollyanna thoughts to this thread, I recommend you to please take your foot from your mouth and go on your way. You're an angry, inarticulate little man, and I sincerely doubt that you have any viable solution other than to complain about what you feel you're entitled to. Life isn't fair, and neither is EVE. When hard times come, successful people roll up their sleeves and move forward. Your solution, along with most in this thread, however, is to somehow revisit the past and alter it to create the present that you think would be most beneficial to you. Your decidedly selfish attitude is petty, vengeful, and unproductive. Get a grip. CCP has this under control. They're even discussing it with the CSM, so they can get an earful of whine from your democratically elected representation. Frankly, I'd prefer those representatives have a positive mindset to take to the meeting, rather than the bitterness exhibited by so many in this thread.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:51:00 - [1372] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Farouq Rizer Edited by: Farouq Rizer on 12/12/2008 03:18:20 Can you imagine how many people payed real money for GTCs and sold them for ISK that came out of nothing? CCP better track down every GTC transaction and charge 35$ for every GTC that was payed with exploited ISK to those who were caught. Just so we're clear, they weren't printing ISK, they were printing goods. Those goods could be sold for ISK, but they did not create any ISK in and of itself. Whatever amount of ISK in the universe is the same with or without the exploit, the only difference is that there's more <stuff> than there should have been. What they did was deflate the value of ISK for all production goods, which is a good thing for you and I because we could buy more <stuff> with our ISK. It would be a bad thing if you were in the market for rare goods however (anything other than T1 meta 0 and T2) because there's a more finite supply of those goods and these exploiters could acquire an otherwise unfair share of the ISK in the universe - basically they could pay more for those items and drove up the price as a result. Oh man, I am busy again.... You really don't get the simple fact that the honest players got things cheaper, but these guys got things for FREE. Overall, this made the game relatively worse for honest players, as EVE is a game of competition.
Xantor Bludberry Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:51:00 - [1373] I think we`ll newer see the names, because then we will see a lot of chars, who have a very close relationship whith CCP and GM`s crew. The BoB alliance. Sir Molle. I`ll newer ever belive if somebody say me that BoB is clean. He is made so HUGE war over EVE universe, so much POS, outpost, capships, titans... The money he gets from Delve moons you say? CCP and BoB so much, very, VERY, VERY likes each other. The dirty story from Eve beginnings scandal is continues. Most of us know that story. It`s all so sad, honestly... 70 accounts banned? ROLF! Ok, "over 70 accounts" - it may be as 65, as 75 accounts, so what? We will newer see the public and transparent investigatoin, caus that exploit and such unfair players actions is not a crime for the REAL LIFE and REAL WORLD. It`s ony ingame confuse. Easer way to CCP - just close an eyes. Banned some accounts, deleted some chars, destroyed some POS... No names, all covered. It`s so sad as I said. I can only suggest CCP hire Blizzards GM`s crew. 5 years work and no one such scandal.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:56:00 - [1374] What is Ludo? I am just disheartened, because I have tried running POS', number of them, I have tried running certain reactions, but the amount of "crazy" in POS mechanics was so huge that I just gave up, it was simply too much for one guy to deal with. Hence why I have been supporting a POS overhaul for many years, well, till recently. I will stick with my T2 BPOs while they still make even small profits. But, having had experience with POS, and having been part of the T2 market for the better of 3 years I can draw on that experience to say that this exploit was going on for a long, long, long time. Maybe it was not so widespread 4 years ago, maybe not so many people in 0.0 knew about it, or I simply did not pay attention since I did not buy any T2 BPOs then, but certainly last couple of years have been arduous, at least now I know why. And, yes, guys, I know CCP owes us old farts nothing, they never did, at least not in any tangible terms. Respect, on the other hand, it would be nice to have, respect and consideration for the players. CCP has been treating us like we all have a learning disability of one sort or another, lately. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Arno Villanova Amarr The Mongols	Posted - 2008.12.12 04:56:00 - [1375] Its a game... Get over yourselves... Seriously!! Move forward and have fun.
Weavering	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:00:00 - [1376] Edited by: Weavering on 12/12/2008 05:01:05 In my humble opinion I think that the true damage here lies not in the unlegetimate gainings of some but in the consequentely losses of the legit players. How many small-medium alliances' fate has this exploit influenced? How many capitals were magically spawned by cheating, how many DD's usages shouldn't have been possible? I'm glad I'm just a casual, my gameplay was not affected and in the end I still enjoy this game; this doesn't mean that since a no home nomad isn't affected by a catostrophe the autorities should not do nothig about it. Banning is ok but the real deal is to try to cut the STILL PRESENT ASSETS derived from the thing. I agree that "the show must go on" but surely it needs a LOT of cleaning. That said I admit that I'm a catastrophy addicted, I can watch a violent storm or a house burn for hours and always when something grandious and colossal happens I rejoice in ecstasy... what about a huge high-tech concord fleet getting out to 0.0 destroying guilty stations, posses and whatever gets in its way. Edit: wrong char, main is Tirym btw.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:01:00 - [1377] Originally by: Noriko Rei You're an angry, inarticulate little man, and I sincerely doubt that you have any viable solution other than to complain about what you feel you're entitled to. I just have a very low tolerance to stupidity. And I do have quite a good solution, if you had bother to read my posts you would notice it. But I know reading demands too much of you... About my articullation, well, it is at least good enough to show the incoherence of your diffuse line of reasoning. That is, if you can call it reasoning at all. Quote: Life isn't fair, and neither is EVE. When hard times come, successful people roll up their sleeves and move forward. Your solution, along with most in this thread, however, is to somehow revisit the past and alter it to create the present that you think would be most beneficial to you. Your decidedly selfish attitude is petty, vengeful, and unproductive. Life isn't perfectly fair, but that is not an excuse to not try to make it the fairest possible within reason. My solution consists in tracing the money and assets gained illicitly and taking them from the economy. Which is technologically feasible and reasonably simple if you are a programmer, have half a brain and know your stuff. It is quick, ellegant, unselfish, and the fairest possible solution to the problem. Quote: Get a grip. CCP has this under control. They're even discussing it with the CSM, so they can get an earful of whine from your democratically elected representation. Frankly, I'd prefer those representatives have a positive mindset to take to the meeting, rather than the bitterness exhibited by so many in this thread. Lol, "CCP has it under control". Are you sure you are not a CCP employee? Because to say such a thing after CCP story of having things under control you need to be either utterlly stupid or have yours on the line... Oh and one more thing, the representative's duty is to be our voice. So if most of us are "bitter" or have a "negative mindset" they better be too. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Neville Ducard	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:02:00 - [1378] This is almost as bad as the time CCP nerfed boot.ini.
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:07:00 - [1379] Thank god CCP doesn't listen to players, this thread is filled with crappy ideas. Reset 0.0? Might as well take CCP's income and throw it into a fire. The only people who would be left would be the missionrunners and macrominers. Just stop posting, please. I for one will be monitoring CAOD carefully to see if any alliances asplode from this.
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:10:00 - [1380] Originally by: Etho Demerzel snip Lol, "CCP has it under control". Are you sure you are not a CCP employee? Because to say such a thing after CCP story of having things under control you need to be either utterlly stupid or have yours on the line...snip Oh goodness no! Someone has a different view than you? Git 'im, call 'im a damn CCP employee! Two wrongs don't make a right and if everyone would chill out we might not have a 46 page (and growing thread) of everyone pointing fingers.

Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:11:00 - [1381] Originally by: Scoop de'Woop Originally by: Etho Demerzel snip Lol, "CCP has it under control". Are you sure you are not a CCP employee? Because to say such a thing after CCP story of having things under control you need to be either utterlly stupid or have yours on the line...snip Oh goodness no! Someone has a different view than you? Git 'im, call 'im a damn CCP employee! Two wrongs don't make a right and if everyone would chill out we might not have a 46 page (and growing thread) of everyone pointing fingers. It's all your fault. http://obeythekitten.com/
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:14:00 - [1382] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Scoop de'Woop Originally by: Etho Demerzel snip Lol, "CCP has it under control". Are you sure you are not a CCP employee? Because to say such a thing after CCP story of having things under control you need to be either utterlly stupid or have yours on the line...snip Oh goodness no! Someone has a different view than you? Git 'im, call 'im a damn CCP employee! Two wrongs don't make a right and if everyone would chill out we might not have a 46 page (and growing thread) of everyone pointing fingers. It's all your fault. Is it time to blame Bush yet?
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:15:00 - [1383] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 12/12/2008 05:15:57 Originally by: Johli Thank god CCP doesn't listen to players, this thread is filled with crappy ideas. Reset 0.0? Might as well take CCP's income and throw it into a fire. The only people who would be left would be the missionrunners and macrominers. Just stop posting, please. I for one will be monitoring CAOD carefully to see if any alliances asplode from this. Well, they did mention KIA and we all know Ev0ke was involved, at least some of them. But, it is all speculation when it comes to KIA just some "logs." Ev0ke admitted involvement, and we already knew that from the Kugu's blog as well. Resetting 0.0 would be nuts, I agree, but I sincerely doubt that majority of Ev0ke leadership was ignorant of the exploiting. This is just damage control, and this is too big to be just "not known" by the main guys in the alliance. Hence my recommendation, however unpalatable, is to disband alliances and corporations within those alliances. I know, allot of grunts will be let down, but that is the only way to start a recovery. Also, examining any and all stations Ev0ke built over the last couple of years and perhaps nuking those as well, and if they are occupied by a new owners, moving their stuff. Anyway, basically killing off any alliance or corporation that was involved in it. Assuming that if Alliance heads were involved, then making all CORPORATE members responsible, and closing all the corps and confiscating assets. leaving individual players, perhaps poor, and stranded in 0.0, but without proof of direct involvement unbanned. I know, it is an evil plan, but it is the only way to punish an alliance is by punishing all of its members where it hurts, their assets. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:18:00 - [1384] Edited by: Scoop de''Woop on 12/12/2008 05:22:11 Originally by: Devian 666 It's all your fault. My bad, will try to avoid sploitin' next time. With all sincerity though, it will take a bit of time to get this sorted out. I am not a CCP fan-boy in the least bit but I also don't expect them to come up with feasible solution within the first 24 hours. Granted, there is something fishy about reports of petitions on this issue years ago. Edit: Since someone mentioned it earlier, although I think it got removed, look at what happened when the dip****s in Congress gave the money to the banks... no accountability and now no one knows where the money went. Patience is of utmost importance.
Tshien Tze	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:23:00 - [1385] What's done is done. CCP may have come late to understanding this exploit, but they did indeed take action. EVE is a complex game and there is no reasonable way to undue the damage to the markets. The markets will fluctuate wildly for the next month or so, I would imagine and then settle to it's new levels, based on the new amount of materials available. What I am most interested in is how this went unnoticed for so long, and what future actions CCP will take to ensure future exploits (and there sill be some) get noticed on a more timely basis, whether reported or not.
Sunbird Huy Wolf Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:25:00 - [1386] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. ehm? huh? whaaa... With so many people saying they actually pointed this issue out, couldn't it be that some people in Iceland were actually aware of this, and protected their friends in game? Hopefully, when we see some job openings in CCP offices soon, we will know if something really was done about all this. Props to CCP(the ones with clean hands) for dealing with this, better ever than never...
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:25:00 - [1387] So......what I would like to ask...is where the proof is that this exploit was going on for 4 years? Far as I know, there is none. And I don't consider some internets poster who we know nothing about, a "reliable source".
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:29:00 - [1388] Originally by: Sunbird Huy Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I see very few people thanking CCP for fixing this. ehm? huh? whaaa... With so many people saying they actually pointed this issue out, couldn't it be that some people in Iceland were actually aware of this, and protected their friends in game? Hopefully, when we see some job openings in CCP offices soon, we will know if something really was done about all this. Props to CCP(the ones with clean hands) for dealing with this, better ever than never... And who's to say that these people "reportedly" saying they made others aware of this exploit, aren't lieing through their teeth for whatever reason? POinted this issue out to whom? Their friends maybe? Or did they even bother to report it. We don't know. AS to be quite honest, there are so many people here that could be suspects, I wouldn't trust what anyone here says if you gave me a gold brick. I'll wait for the facts from CCP, since they are the only ones on these forums that actually will have them.
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:30:00 - [1389] Ev0ke: ...We reported it... nothing happened.... Credit to: Viper S***le.
Sunbird Huy Wolf Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:33:00 - [1390] Originally by: Baske Originally by: Mari Katarin Originally by: Jinx Barker I initially started right after beta, so I guess myself, nor others like me, really deserve any proper customer service, or honesty, from CCP and its employees, because we just idiots, and would pay our subs anyway. Put yourself in their place. There is no 'winning' here. Whatever they do there will be plenty of unhappy people. CCP is having to deal with the fallout of no growth this year. A combination of nearly no new features, skyrocketing GTC prices (some of which may be explained by a recent popularity of this exploit), nanonerf and ghost training nerf have resulted in an absolutely flat playerbase this year. Going out with pitchforks and torches may result in a drastic current player count haircut. Not going out with pitchforks and torches may also result in a slight player count haircut and bad press wet blanket on future growth. That's the last thing CCP needs going into an Atari deal and pondering how to pay for the new hardware infrastructure and fishtank. We old farts demonstrated that we're willing to stay no matter how badly we're treated. We're codependent. They owe us nothing. Giving us nothing has been the right choice before and will continue to be the right choice in the future. However, as I've posted before -- that is not necessarily the attitude new players are going to come in with. And the future is growth and new players, not us. I'm still hoping CCP will turn over a new leaf and deal with this situation in a way which demonstrates 'zero tolerance' to game breaking cheats. I am an old fart, and I promise you that I wont stay if this doesn't gets fixed properly. Bans are NOTHING, fixes NOTHING of the impact this have had. Eve is no longer a "game" untill this is properly fixed. And I mean PROPERLY, doing their outmost to reestablish the game balance. I would rather play Ludo, at least it's not flawed like this. What is Ludo?

Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:35:00 - [1391] Originally by: Sunbird Huy What is Ludo? I asked that too, what the hell is Ludo? And how much does it cost a month? Oh, and LOL to the bellow. Originally by: Delos Korelian Ev0ke: ...We reported it... nothing happened.... Credit to: Viper S***le. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:39:00 - [1392] Originally by: Jinx Barker I asked that too, what the hell is Ludo? And how much does it cost a month? Oh, and LOL to the bellow. Ludo is a table game. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Sunbird Huy Wolf Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:41:00 - [1393] Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 12/12/2008 05:42:26 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Jinx Barker I asked that too, what the hell is Ludo? And how much does it cost a month? Oh, and LOL to the bellow. Ludo is a table game. Thx...nvm hehehe plus, check the new signature in top of this page: http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21941&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=735&sid=ac3baf1ed44434ce73ef067d6c70ef34 mwahahaha...CHAMPIONS
Mikalya Amarr Hell's Rejects	Posted - 2008.12.12 05:53:00 - [1394] Originally by: Johli Originally by: Devian 666 Oh goodness no! Someone has a different view than you? Git 'im, call 'im a damn CCP employee! Two wrongs don't make a right and if everyone would chill out we might not have a 46 page (and growing thread) of everyone pointing fingers. It's all your fault. Is it time to blame Bush yet? No, blame Gore. He invented the Internet, remember? As for everything else in this thread:
F90OEX F9X	Posted - 2008.12.12 06:07:00 - [1395]
Avaleric Amarr SC Special Circumstances	Posted - 2008.12.12 06:41:00 - [1396] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Noriko Rei You're an angry, inarticulate little man, and I sincerely doubt that you have any viable solution other than to complain about what you feel you're entitled to. I just have a very low tolerance to stupidity. And I do have quite a good solution, if you had bother to read my posts you would notice it. But I know reading demands too much of you... I have read all your posts here; mostly you being abusive towards those of different opinion, and quite unprovoked. Tells us all about your mindset and capabilities... - Ignorance is bliss...
Stikato	Posted - 2008.12.12 06:45:00 - [1397] Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:39 Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:09 "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy..." Ok, I know the universe is collapsing and all, and that Pearl Harbor was nearly 70 yrs ago, but comparing the starbase exploit to an attack which killed over 2,000 American servicemen and women is appalling. If you find that statement absurd, I would encourage you to read personal accounts of American military personnel that day (particularly the grunts, as the brass was out to lunch that Sunday) and revisit your sentiments. My suggestion to CCP would be to avoid historical hyperbole for the moment and fix your product.
7shining7one7 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.12 06:47:00 - [1398] TRUTH MF'ERS, DO YOU SPEAK IT?
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.12 06:55:00 - [1399] Originally by: Stikato Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:39 Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:09 "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy..." Ok, I know the universe is collapsing and all, and that Pearl Harbor was nearly 70 yrs ago, but comparing the starbase exploit to an attack which killed over 2,000 American servicemen and women is appalling. If you find that statement absurd, I would encourage you to read personal accounts of American military personnel that day (particularly the grunts, as the brass was out to lunch that Sunday) and revisit your sentiments. My suggestion to CCP would be to avoid historical hyperbole for the moment and fix your product. Oh dear. Let's just get this out of the way, shall we? Me: You're an idiot. You: Wah wah, how dare you, wah wah my <whatever> died during <whatever>, you disgrace <something> just like all the Goonie <asterisks followed by emotes> Me: :cripes: You: What kind of a sick person makes fun of death? Me: A sensible one you oversensitive wittering twit. You: RAR More insults and Goonies txtspk !!!!!!!!! Me: Oh yeah, almost there, don't stop posting, don't ever stop posting unf.
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 06:59:00 - [1400] Edited by: Mussaschi on 12/12/2008 07:01:45 Hm, I found 4 sources so far confirming that this exploit was in effect at least for more than a year, most say, since the introduction of reactions. The cookbook says that it works with "any" complex reaction, not only ferogel. The effect of the exploid is, that any crappy moon could produce as much advanced material as a group of the best available moons without any logistics to move material between them required. So each of this pos should have created at least 12 billions in revenue per month. At least 3 sources stated to have reported the bug years ago. Having a look at the last years market for advanced materials, there is no moment where the price artifically drops (apart from a 2 month peek), so it is fair to assume that it was in effect for at least the year I could see. So looking at all this, and having the nice timing for alchemy in mind (and some player comments, that nobody knew what it was good for, since there was no buisness case for it, given the current market prices), I somehow doubt the 7th 2008 petition theory. Sorry if I am wrong. Does it change anything for me? Nope. I have already accepted that any newer character will never get peer in this game. Old bpo and the incredible long skill training effectivly will keep me appart from older toons forever. So I just stay away, and enjoy what I like.

El'van	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:00:00 - [1401] Originally by: Stikato "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy..." Ok, I know the universe is collapsing and all, and that Pearl Harbor was nearly 70 yrs ago, but comparing the starbase exploit to an attack which killed over 2,000 American servicemen and women is appalling. Something tells me that CCPs didn't take Pearl Harbor into account at all, when writing this. IMHO, that is.
Xaddak	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:02:00 - [1402] And as a side note to whoever keeps whining that it is about the assassination of some guy in 43 BC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infamy_Speech I don't think somebody stood up after that and said "Today is a date that will live in infamy!" Funny thing, but somebody DID make that speech after the Pearl Harbor bombing. Soooo yeah. Pretty sure it is, in fact, a reference to American history, although WORLD War II could probably be argued to be a global conflict, maybe? Because it was a WORLD war? You know? Involving most of the entire world? Not just the USA? I don't know if somebody mentioned this yet, I got 25-30 pages into this and gave up.
Mira O'karr Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:03:00 - [1403] Originally by: Stikato Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:39 Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:09 "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy..." Ok, I know the universe is collapsing and all, and that Pearl Harbor was nearly 70 yrs ago, but comparing the starbase exploit to an attack which killed over 2,000 American servicemen and women is appalling. If you find that statement absurd, I would encourage you to read personal accounts of American military personnel that day (particularly the grunts, as the brass was out to lunch that Sunday) and revisit your sentiments. My suggestion to CCP would be to avoid historical hyperbole for the moment and fix your product. i hate to break it to you but if you are that sensitive, eve is really not the game for you. now gtfo.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:12:00 - [1404] Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 12/12/2008 07:14:29 Originally by: Stikato Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:39 Edited by: Stikato on 12/12/2008 06:45:09 "On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy..." Ok, I know the universe is collapsing and all, and that Pearl Harbor was nearly 70 yrs ago, but comparing the starbase exploit to an attack which killed over 2,000 American servicemen and women is appalling. If you find that statement absurd, I would encourage you to read personal accounts of American military personnel that day (particularly the grunts, as the brass was out to lunch that Sunday) and revisit your sentiments. My suggestion to CCP would be to avoid historical hyperbole for the moment and fix your product. If there were some kind of award for missing the point, you win it. Fine, CCP used an historical hyperbole. However, it does somehow get the point across. In the same style as when Roosevelt said it, it was to get across 'this is a really massive **ing crisis' but saying it in a nicer, more memorable way. Sorry if using a historical quote offends you, but man the last thing eve needs is a moral minority who complain about THIS as opposed to the current crop of ** ups. Enough of that. Right. What seems to have become clear was that at least one person who ran this scam informed CCP about it immediately. Nothing happened. No bans, no nothing. So he did it more and more and more. Now, no matter if it is 'right' or 'wrong', people did this because there was literally no reason not to once you found it out. Until something is officially broadcast as an exploit, it is not one. It is not cheating. It is using game mechanics to your advantage, just as anyone else can do. Now much as this may sound kinda harsh, defending whoever is currently being given the evil eye, im not. Im just saying that until the rules are changed to make it illegal to do something, its not cheating. It may be morally dubious, but then again, so is beating the crap out of some newbie who can't defend himself. To put things simply, you can't expect people to self-censor things that they think may be exploits. If the rules don't say it is, its not. Edit for clarity - The banhammer has probably come down so hard becuase this has (apparently) been going on a long time, and as such SOMETHING immediate had to be done. That doesn't mean that everyone will stay banned, just that poses and the people who run them needed to be stopped.
Billy Merc Amarr Born-2-Kill Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:20:00 - [1405] TBH if it was reported to CCP all those years ago....and nothin was done about it...good on those who took advantage of it. If it wasnt all those who allegedly guilty of it...it woulda been someone else..theres always gunna be someone moulding the system to take advantage of it, and the fact it was "allegedly" brought to CCP's attention....well is **** poor form on their behalf...considering they had it in there powers to "fix" said issue. so to all those that profited... nice one
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:30:00 - [1406] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 07:31:24 Originally by: Avaleric I have read all your posts here; mostly you being abusive towards those of different opinion, and quite unprovoked. Tells us all about your mindset and capabilities... You are entitled to have your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. But as soon as you decide to share it in a forum, be prepared to have it repudiated. If you can't bear having your flawed arguments dissected and ridicularized for their inconsistencies, then just abstain yourself from writing. Now if you have anything to say about the subject at hand, please share your priceless ideas. I am quite sure they will be amusing. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Rulakye	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:31:00 - [1407] its a shame it really is, but it is fixed now. I dont know why so many people are becoming hysterical even if it has happened for 4 years. The game is still here, just adapt if it makes a difference and continue. I dont think CCP will let this happen again, or atleast i hope not
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:32:00 - [1408] Originally by: Rulakye its a shame it really is, but it is fixed now. I dont know why so many people are becoming hysterical even if it has happened for 4 years. The game is still here, just adapt if it makes a difference and continue. I dont think CCP will let this happen again, or atleast i hope not Please, for the sake of argument, enlighten us about what do you mean by "fixed". ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Shiyama Zun Yan	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:34:00 - [1409] What we know so far: from CCP - exploit found, fixed people banned, more to come. From the interweb - 4 years of evil, [insert enemy alliance name] has been using this cheat they are teh hax0rz!!!, the sky is falling and really we don't know much yet. answer - wait. If you are smart then take advantage of the fluctuation in the markets or just go on anyway. CCP do have a fairly poor history of customer service, but lets at least give them more than 24hours to fix the problem and then do all the research into finding how deep it runs.
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:37:00 - [1410] Originally by: Etho Demerzel You are entitled to have your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. But as soon as you decide to share it in a forum, be prepared to have it repudiated. If you can't bear having your flawed arguments dissected and ridicularized for their inconsistencies, then just abstain yourself from writing. Now if you have anything to say about the subject at hand, please share your priceless ideas. I am quite sure they will be amusing. I would really like to perpetuate this cycle of personal attacks and over-aggressiveness by pointing out that you should learn basic English before you start throwing around big words which you aren't using correctly but that would contradict what I said earlier about thinking rationally and calmly. Oh boy, now look what you made me do.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:38:00 - [1411] I have several questions to CCP -------------------------------------- Since what time was the exploit used? Which materials exactly were manufatured using the exploit? What amount of moon materials were created out of thin air, and how many moon materials were created legally? What is the maximum amount of high end materials we can produce from high end moons without using alchemy? What is the amount of high end moon materials we currently consume for building t2 stuff? What is the estimated impact on the economy of removing these extra materials? Are the numbers which were the foundation for invention and alchemy clean or do they includ the usage of the materials made by the exploit? Thank you in advance.
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:45:00 - [1412] To answer these questions, CCP would need to hire an economist to look over some data... oh wait...
Seth Vorlar	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:48:00 - [1413] MUHAHAHAHAHA This proves once again how the ppl at ccp do their work if they "fail" in the past....pull out the hammer and squeese the sh.. out off the costummer, it seems that this pos "exploid" exist since 2004, SINCE THE INTRODUKTION OF POSSES YOU, ISLANDISH CONEHEADS, AND YOU KNEW IT SINCE THIS (rised middlefinger). And then FOUR YEARS LATER CCP starts to act, ban anf f.... ppl who are tired to petition such rubbish. CCP you should die, and all off your empoyees should search for a knew job... and please NOT in the MMO bussines, maybe you should go fish or so, so we get rid off you!!!! Or maybe you should ask torfi, he will fix this like the ghost trainning exploid, he knows how to kick costummers right I¦m so f¦ed for every euro i gave you I hope a lightning bold strikes you at the toilet. (euch soll der blitz beim schei¯en treffen, auf deutsch klings einfach besser) RIP EVE PS: if you find typos or grammatic mistakes, you can keep them np.
Kaiten Cage	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:54:00 - [1414] They do have an economist :)
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:54:00 - [1415] First of all GJ CCP! We need answers. How long? Who? Was there GM involved in this exploit? Was there RMT involved? The New Eden has been too stable for a long time. Everything always is trying to go to disorder and we try to keep it in order. Atleast Red Alliance lost some players, they were around 1500 members and now around 1300. Too bad that I haven't kept track on the top 20 for a long time. I checked daily how many members those top 20 alliances had back in days. But it's sure that the T2 market has had massive impact of due this. I have always wondered how everything can be so damn cheap. IMHO any alliance wich has been harboring this kind of action must be closed by CCP and their space must be released. Alliance leaders MUST have known what's going on. That ISK has been used to fund endless supply of capital ships. Or RMT. We all demand names of players, corporations and alliances!
Murk Loar Heavenbound	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:54:00 - [1416] Originally by: Seth Vorlar MUHAHAHAHAHA This proves once again how the ppl at ccp do their work if they "fail" in the past....pull out the hammer and squeese the sh.. out off the costummer, it seems that this pos "exploid" exist since 2004, SINCE THE INTRODUKTION OF POSSES YOU, ISLANDISH CONEHEADS, AND YOU KNEW IT SINCE THIS (rised middlefinger). And then FOUR YEARS LATER CCP starts to act, ban anf f.... ppl who are tired to petition such rubbish. CCP you should die, and all off your empoyees should search for a knew job... and please NOT in the MMO bussines, maybe you should go fish or so, so we get rid off you!!!! Or maybe you should ask torfi, he will fix this like the ghost trainning exploid, he knows how to kick costummers right I¦m so f¦ed for every euro i gave you I hope a lightning bold strikes you at the toilet. (euch soll der blitz beim schei¯en treffen, auf deutsch klings einfach besser) RIP EVE PS: if you find typos or grammatic mistakes, you can keep them np. I'm sensing you're angry.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:55:00 - [1417] Originally by: Scoop de'Woop I would really like to perpetuate this cycle of personal attacks and over-aggressiveness by pointing out that you should learn basic English before you start throwing around big words which you aren't using correctly but that would contradict what I said earlier about thinking rationally and calmly. Oh boy, now look what you made me do. Sorry, my friend, but if they are big words for you, you should learn basic English yourself. But by all means, prove how flawed is my knowledge of your language. I would like very much to see the errors noticed by your expert eyes. It will be amusing. And I didn't make you do anything, you did this pathetic unfounded attack against the grammar of my text, because you love ad hominem fallacies, or else you wouldn't. Lets not be hypocritical here. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 07:55:00 - [1418] Originally by: C4w3 Ill throw something at you.... the pilot wich made the post back then are same pilot banned today as his corp¦s ..... saga continues. and I'll throw something back at you - so what? You didn't quibble about the possibility of there having been different POS related issues over the years. Why shouldn't someone who was working with POS in 2005 still be working with them in 2008? Why shouldn't someone that has worked with POS for at least three years encounter two bugs? So the first one was clearly something they didn't like. He says his corp suffered. The most recent one turns out to be to his advantage. Nothing significant there. Other than the fact that this player (if it is even the same player and the char hasn't been sold) complains about an exploit when it goes against them then uses an exploit when it's in their favour. Talk about Kangaroo Court! I hope some of you lot are too young to be on a jury. So much outrage and excitement on so little, little information. Let's get real:Some cheat (or idiot if he didn't realise it was wrong) exploits a defect in the game. He then makes a public post saying "Nyah, nyah, I got banned, I've been doing it for four years, aren't I a clever little ***?" ..and you guys believe* him? Deity on a crutch, peeps! This guys cheats. He's been caught and punished. You think he's going to give you a thoughtful and accurate description of events? Sheesh! -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:04:00 - [1419] Originally by: Lochmar Fiendhiem MY SINGLE QUESTION IS THIS. Why should I keep playing this game, when after 3 years I actually had to work to earn my keep, while others were just allowed to do it the easy way? If you thought a game was work then, yes, why did you pay to 'play' it? When you're all grown up and have learned what work really is then you can complain. Oh but wait. When you've learned what work is you'll also have learned what a game is and you won't care. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:05:00 - [1420] Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: RedSplat Anyone notice how the vast majority of people saying 'stop whining' or being less than critical of CCP conduct are either anonymous alts or BoB aligned? Any one else notice how stupid he is? I thought it was a blank post at first. My automatic 'stupidiousness' filters blanked everything out -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:07:00 - [1421] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 08:08:24 Originally by: Andrue (snip) Let's get real:Some cheat (or idiot if he didn't realise it was wrong) exploits a defect in the game. He then makes a public post saying "Nyah, nyah, I got banned, I've been doing it for four years, aren't I a clever little ***?" ..and you guys believe* him? Deity on a crutch, peeps! This guys cheats. He's been caught and punished. You think he's going to give you a thoughtful and accurate description of events? Sheesh! Every single time a disgruntled banned player said something in the past about a huge bug or exploit it ended proved being true. And every single time nay sayers like you, who wouldn't accept evidence even if it was hammered in your face, refused to accept even the possibility of the alleged fact to be true until it was undeniable. As it is CCP gives us no motive to believe otherwise, by denying us the details of what has been done, of who was caught and of what CCP is doing to fix the problem. As long as this is the case, I have considerably more motive to believe in those that present coherent and believable details than those that feel the need to hide them. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
chumbucket	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:09:00 - [1422] This is extremely dissapointing to see happen to the EVE universe. First alchemy in no way will make up for this. CCP honestly in my opinion can only fix this by the seeding of more high end moons flat out. The market is completly destabialized at this point. The addition of moons is all that will fix this or alchemy needs to be boosted,and in my opinion why save dysprosium for the large powerblocks. Put more rares in low sec for other people to have a chance. Alchemy,reverse engineering(make it finally work)and invention all need boosted! require more minerals in component construction (less of the rare powerblock controlled moon minerals) CCP must make this right and they must do it very fast in order to keep things from lolzor exploding in their face not only in the game itself but in the video game industry. just my 2 ISK. I have worked in the customer service industry for 10 years and the faster you fix the problem the better it will be for CCP themselves in the end. Customer service.....They are paying you time to take risks and put in work guys make the right choices. and can u please UN NERF TORPEDOS IF RATS CAN HIT AT 70km WHY CANT I? PLEASE KEEP THIS THE BEST MMO THERE IS
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:09:00 - [1423] Edited by: Mussaschi on 12/12/2008 08:14:39 Originally by: Andrue ..and you guys believe him? Deity on a crutch, peeps! This guys cheats. He's been caught and punished. You think he's going to give you a thoughtful and accurate description of events? Sheesh! Just one thing. 1/2 a year ago I was checking whether to setup some moon miners. One thing that surprised me at this point was, that the price of advanced materials, was rather exactly the price of raw materials without any extra fee for the complex process! Couldn't figure out, how people could do that and still make money. Guess I have my answer now. ps. Why didn't ccp state when this bug was introduced. pps. When they introduced alchemy, did none of the ccp guys a check on the market like I did, to find out the right balance for the new reaction? sorry: All indications say, this bug is old. And I would be very very surprised, if ccp didn't knew about it, at least when they planed alchemy (though I would suspect alchemy was a reaction to the bug (hope, to be proven wrong here)).
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:13:00 - [1424] Edited by: Scoop de''Woop on 12/12/2008 08:15:34 Originally by: Etho Demerzel You are entitled to have your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. But as soon as you decide to share it in a forum, be prepared to have it repudiated. started a sentence with a conjunction - while this is changing it is still not standard form If you can't bear having your flawed arguments dissected and ridicularized I think I know what you are going for but that isn't a word as far as I know for their inconsistencies, then just abstain yourself from writing abstain yourself isn't proper English. Now if you have anything to say about the subject at hand, please share your priceless ideas. I am quite sure they will be amusing. fragment Saying something like "you made me do it" is a colloquial phrase that isn't meant to be taken literally. Of course you didn't make me do it because this is an internet forum where physical contact isn't possible. Edit: When I say "big" words, I don't necessarily mean that my vocabulary doesn't use these types of words, I mean that they aren't used by most English speakers. Grammar and vocabulary, while similar, are different in that you can have a large vocabulary and terrible grammar.
Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:14:00 - [1425] Edited by: Rramar Claime on 12/12/2008 08:15:54 I think its time someone stands up with the question, how many GMs or devs knew about this problem (edit: and who were they, names, which ingame alliance are they connected to) if it really existed since the pos system is live? What is the infamous internal affairs in CCP doing now, either its true or not. We need open investigations not secrets and lies!!! Who the hell cares about evoke, lucky few who had a good time, if its true they even did good to us. I want to see heads falling in CCP! Not rejecting resignations of guilty devs and just hiding everything under the carpet like in some old communist state! ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:15:00 - [1426] Originally by: Kaiten Cage They do have an economist :) They didn't four years ago though. We don't even know that they have data going back that far. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Zerconian Caldari Darkwave Technologies Doctrine.	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:15:00 - [1427] Originally by: chumbucket This is extremely dissapointing to see happen to the EVE universe. First alchemy in no way will make up for this. CCP honestly in my opinion can only fix this by the seeding of more high end moons flat out. The market is completly destabialized at this point. The addition of moons is all that will fix this or alchemy needs to be boosted,and in my opinion why save dysprosium for the large powerblocks. Put more rares in low sec for other people to have a chance. Alchemy,reverse engineering(make it finally work)and invention all need boosted! require more minerals in component construction (less of the rare powerblock controlled moon minerals) CCP must make this right and they must do it very fast in order to keep things from lolzor exploding in their face not only in the game itself but in the video game industry. just my 2 ISK. I have worked in the customer service industry for 10 years and the faster you fix the problem the better it will be for CCP themselves in the end. Customer service.....They are paying you time to take risks and put in work guys make the right choices. and can u please UN NERF TORPEDOS IF RATS CAN HIT AT 70km WHY CANT I? PLEASE KEEP THIS THE BEST MMO THERE IS Imo, adding new moons to low-sec won't do much. For a time smaller corporations can horde their profits, but eventually once a larger alliance finds it, it'll quickly be locked down and mined for all its worth.
Maren Maen	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:18:00 - [1428] I was under the impression that CCP had an internal audit department. If they do, they clearly don't know anything about internal auditing. One of the most basic and yet easiest tests to conduct is possibility analyses. E.g., there are x dysprosium moons in existence. each produces y dysprosium per unit time. Max amount of production (and thus entering the market system) is x*y per unit time. Is the actual amount greater than this? Obviously in this case, the answer to that question is yes (the longer answer is considerably so). Tsk tsk, programmers are supposed to be good at this sort of problem solving. Makes one wonder what a real external audit (as in, by real auditors, not an elected CSM council) would reveal. Signed, your friendly internal auditor (yes, I really am :/)
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:21:00 - [1429] Originally by: Zerconian Imo, adding new moons to low-sec won't do much. For a time smaller corporations can horde their profits, but eventually once a larger alliance finds it, it'll quickly be locked down and mined for all its worth. And no I can't offer a solution to help counter-balance the current roles, but seeding won't do much for the average EVE-citizen. ^^ this. If CCP were to adjust the alchemy reactions to be a bit more in line with regular reaction prices, we wouldn't have as much of a monopolization issue. The last time I checked (and before everyone went crazy buying up high end materials) the alchemy reactions were about 1/8th as profitable as the regular reactions. That being said, I haven't had a problem obtaining dysprosium or promethium at decent prices so I fail to see what alchemy was supposed to do in the first place.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:22:00 - [1430] Edited by: Valan on 12/12/2008 08:23:53 I didn't agree with naming but I've changed my mind. There are other posts on the net claiming BoB had a post set up for the exploit and then quickly changed it when the cat was out of the bag. KIA have been mentioned also. CCP need to name who they have punished and cleared because if BoB and other golden boy organisations in the circle of jerk (IRC, EVE TV) 'are seen' to get away with anything again CCP won't have a reputation. CCP's integrity matters now you're getting into bed with Atari and other companies. Banning a couple of mates is nothing compared to losing business in the long run. lets face it being jobless in Iceland at the moment isn't a barrell of laughs is it? Ban them from EVE and give them a job ala Stavros lol /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig

SPIONKOP Caldari Warp Core Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:23:00 - [1431] After much consideration I would simply like to know what actions have been taken by CCP if the following items have been purhcased with the stolen ISK. How many Capitals and Super Capitals have been removed by CCP. How many Outposts have been removed or will be removed by CCP. How may real accounts (not the POS Monkey Alts) have been banned. How many and which T2 BPO's have been removed. How many BPO's with a value of over 1 bil been removed. How much ISK have been removed from Players, Corps and Alliance wallets. I am not interested in the small stuff, I am not interested in restitution, jsut a litte transparancy. --------------------------------------------- Space For Rent. 100mil ISK/Week.
kaliskaramon	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:25:00 - [1432] Well put a few in low sec.. But they do need to act quickly. I dont know what they will do but they need to do something.... Hoping alchemy will fix it would be like hoping a flat tire will inflate itself. They have patched the hole time to fill it with something.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:25:00 - [1433] Originally by: chumbucket First alchemy in no way will make up for this. Why not? Please provide the numbers which back up your statement. How many units were built using the exploit? How many units we can build from high end moons? How many units can be built by alchemy? Originally by: chumbucket The market is completly destabialized at this point. Maybe there are some big speculations going on and that's why the market is in uproar? You can earn easily billions if you just spread a rumour at the right time. That's what lots of people are doing. And it is fun Originally by: chumbucket The addition of moons is all that will fix this or alchemy needs to be boosted Can you provide any numbers, please? Originally by: chumbucket Why save dysprosium for the large powerblocks. Put more rares in low sec for other people to have a chance. They will have a chance how? The big guys will just jump in their cap fleet with 100+ capitals and smash any resistance. Why would that be different in low sec? Originally by: chumbucket Alchemy,reverse engineering(make it finally work)and invention all need boosted! Invention costs are a fixed amount of isk. Why would a chance in that help? If you pay 20 mil or 30 mil for inventing a HAC, what does it matter much? The buyer will pay it. Alchemy will work fine. Actually currently we have the right situation to fire it up! In the past alchemy wasn't worth it because the market was flooded with cheap (and cheated) materials, now alchemy can compete - finally!! There is no need to change anything. Originally by: chumbucket CCP must make this right and they must do it very fast Doing things very fast, especially difficult investigations, usually contradicts doing things right. I am 100% confident that CCP is working as hard as they can to get this desaster sorted out. At the weekend there is already a CSM meeting and we will hopefully get more info there. This is the time for the CSM to prove themselves and to see if they are worth the hullabooh they made about the whole CSM stuff.
Pain Redefined	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:28:00 - [1434] Originally by: Seth Vorlar MUHAHAHAHAHA This proves once again how the ppl at ccp do their work if they "fail" in the past....pull out the hammer and squeese the sh.. out off the costummer, it seems that this pos "exploid" exist since 2004, SINCE THE INTRODUKTION OF POSSES YOU, ISLANDISH CONEHEADS, AND YOU KNEW IT SINCE THIS (rised middlefinger). And then FOUR YEARS LATER CCP starts to act, ban anf f.... ppl who are tired to petition such rubbish. CCP you should die, and all off your empoyees should search for a knew job... and please NOT in the MMO bussines, maybe you should go fish or so, so we get rid off you!!!! Or maybe you should ask torfi, he will fix this like the ghost trainning exploid, he knows how to kick costummers right I¦m so f¦ed for every euro i gave you I hope a lightning bold strikes you at the toilet. (euch soll der blitz beim schei¯en treffen, auf deutsch klings einfach besser) RIP EVE PS: if you find typos or grammatic mistakes, you can keep them np. Somebody got banned!
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:28:00 - [1435] Another thing if people think they aren't affected by this what do you think is going to happen to the Tech3 release date that is supposed to coincide with the Atari release? So thanks to those that have cheated you've dropped CCP right in it. Even if they are mates and buddies ban them they haven't done CCP any favours. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:29:00 - [1436] What you people fail to see is that CCP will NEVER say anything like names involved, alliances involved or stuff like that. They learned their lesson from t20 insident and will just simply ban people and force others be quiet. Enjoy your "fail and brutal" game! "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Sic Volo	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:30:00 - [1437] Originally by: Shiyama What we know so far: from CCP - exploit found, fixed people banned, more to come. From the interweb - 4 years of evil, [insert enemy alliance name] has been using this cheat they are teh hax0rz!!!, the sky is falling and really we don't know much yet. answer - wait. If you are smart then take advantage of the fluctuation in the markets or just go on anyway. CCP do have a fairly poor history of customer service, but lets at least give them more than 24hours to fix the problem and then do all the research into finding how deep it runs. Agree, although seems the comunity needs more transparency in both investigation and fixing. And beside the extent of this exploit most of us like to know was it misconducted, neglected or tolerated? I suggest starting with simple answer: Was it reported 4 YEARS AGO?
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:31:00 - [1438] And btw the 4 years is utter crap. There wasn't any POS at december 2004 IIRC.......
Seth Vorlar	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:32:00 - [1439] Originally by: Andrue ..and you guys believe him? Deity on a crutch, peeps! This guys cheats. He's been caught and punished. You think he's going to give you a thoughtful and accurate description of events? Sheesh! An Exploid is an exploid if a GM say its an exploid, otherwise its game mechanik isnt it ? PS: Uh and just for the protokoll iv¦e never used it, i didn¦t even know it, im just amused (upsed) in CCP¦s failure cascade the last time, and how costummers get treated for making the FAT geting FATTER. -t20 (LOOOOOOOOOOOOL) -windows patch mistake (ok to much weed) -ghost nerv (pure money grab) -speed nerv (are you kidding, solve the prob not the game) -last patch (contend?) -pos exploid (epic) -cant wait for the next shoot in the foot PPS: and to adress the guys that are shi..ing at each other, Etho Demerzel and Scoop de'Woop, remember on witch side you stand, stop it and fire your words at CCP i cant do it, im a german and my english isnt good enough
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:33:00 - [1440] Originally by: Scoop de'Woop started a sentence with a conjunction - while this is changing it is still not standard form http://www.gpuss.co.uk/english_usage/start_sentence_conjunction.htm ridicularized I think I know what you are going for but that isn't a word as far as I know Fair enough the correct word is ridiculized. abstain yourself isn't proper English. Sorry but that you took from your hat. It is proper English. fragment Which means you couldn't find anything there. We found a total of one mistake in the whole text. Fantastic! See your pedantic observation was completely founded. And what is more ironic, you commited more mistakes trying to correct my text than I did. Fascinating. Quote: Saying something like "you made me do it" is a colloquial phrase that isn't meant to be taken literally. Of course you didn't make me do it because this is an internet forum where physical contact isn't possible. Because the only way for a person to make another do something is through physical contact, right? Regardless, "You made me do it" was an hypocritical statement. That is what matters here. Quote: Edit: When I say "big" words, I don't necessarily mean that my vocabulary doesn't use these types of words, I mean that they aren't used by most English speakers. Grammar and vocabulary, while similar, are different in that you can have a large vocabulary and terrible grammar. I do understand the difference between grammar and vocabulary, and I am quite comfortable with my domain of both such aspects of the English language, thank you. You, on the other hand, have a grave need to improve your vocabulary if you find those words unusual or their use offensive enough to justify your observations. And to update your knowledge about grammar given the "mistakes" you found on my text. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:34:00 - [1441] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: chumbucket Alchemy,reverse engineering(make it finally work)and invention all need boosted! Invention costs are a fixed amount of isk. Why would a chance in that help? If you pay 20 mil or 30 mil for inventing a HAC, what does it matter much? The buyer will pay it. Well, invention is broken by old t2 bpo that give any holder a 20% mineral + invention costs advantage, effectivly shuting down some markets for inventors. But your right. That has nothing to do wiht this exploit. Apart that this 20% more mineral cost will beneffit the old t2 holders even more, when mineral costs are rising. But than, who said that eve was fair.
SgtAriedeBeuker	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:37:00 - [1442] Woooops, there goes the 2.6 trillion profit of isk, Massive Impact on the market, the worlds ecenomic recession is active in Eve now, by taking suchs amount of isk out of the game we can ether suspect high prices or huge amounts of stuff on the market, Or are all of the corporation hangars holding removed? All of the assets of these people are removed ?
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:38:00 - [1443] Originally by: Seth Vorlar -ghost nerv (pure money grab) For crying out loud!! You are like a freaking kid whos parents didn't give more candy... Does ANY corporation in the world produce their product and give it to their customers as free? Ghost training was unfair towards anyone who kept their accounts paid. IMHO CCP should run a database search and remove all ghost trained skill points. That would be fair towards us who has paid to train skills.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:39:00 - [1444] Originally by: Seth Vorlar An Exploid is an exploid if a GM say its an exploid, otherwise its game mechanik isnt it ? In the case of Red Alliance and complexes they feigned ignorance and got away with it. In this case keeping it a massive secret or continuing after you reported pretty much makes an exploit. No dodging this bullet publically the only way is if CCP decides to let you off becuase they like you. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Finderup Soren Caldari untaught	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:41:00 - [1445] This is EVE...... It didnt change for me overnight because "some1" has had more ISK then me... I still change my skills .... I still fly in my ships..... All this little sand box game teaches u is that it is a cruel harsh world out there.... Live with it, or go play something else! Soren
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:41:00 - [1446] Even if this was 4 years old exploit it's effect on market before invention was bound to be relatively low, bcos bottleneck was the amount of T2 BPO's not the amount of raw materials available. However, it's quite likely, that if people exploited it that far back, plus happened to get lucky enough to get T2 BPO it might have given them enough edge over legimate T2 BPO ownders to buy up more BPO's faster than legimate guys. so drumroll Let us do something bad to T2 BPO's ? As far as banning the guys responsible go I do not think this campaign will get the real culprits. Yeah - perhaps few who were stupid enough, but most serious ones would have been counting on that happening and prepared. You know, faked corps thefts, fake scams and stockpiles on accounts that have done fake ragequits over the time. Perhaps significant enough asset piles on some trial account, waiting for doomsday to be activated month later and buy character for 'fresh start'. So - when I look today at the wealthy and powerful on this game tought crosses my mind if I'm looking at a cheater ? Not all of them can be that I'm sure, but how can I tell the difference ?
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:46:00 - [1447] Originally by: chumbucket The addition of moons is all that will fix this or alchemy needs to be boosted,and in my opinion why save dysprosium for the large powerblocks. Put more rares in low sec for other people to have a chance. There are plenty of rare mineral moons in lowsec, take a guess who's controlling them. For example take a look at this system - Nalnifan, promethium moons 2-3, 4-3, 6-15 . Dyspro moons are also present in that region , but attack a pos on one of those and get hotdropped by 50 caps immediately _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:49:00 - [1448] Originally by: Katrina Marie interesting information relating to corps which have closed down (or been closed down) in the last few days: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corpchanges.html Holy hell!
Carden Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:49:00 - [1449] /me runs around screaming while liting large portions of the forums on fire. ----- Ok in truth I would like to know how long this was sitting in the closed issues bin of the petition system days, weeks, months? longer? As well as a general explaintion as to how this will effect the markets. The mods fear my attack gerbil!
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:52:00 - [1450] Originally by: Karina Bellac Another GM receives petition about how to make complex reaction products "for free". Yet another GM sees this petition, gets in contact with his buddies. His buddies quickly switch their "for free" reaction towers over to legitimate reaction towers. Seems like I wasn't wrong.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 08:56:00 - [1451] Originally by: Mussaschi Well, invention is broken by old t2 bpo that give any holder a 20% mineral + invention costs advantage, effectivly shuting down some markets for inventors. But your right. That has nothing to do wiht this exploit. Apart that this 20% more mineral cost will beneffit the old t2 holders even more, when mineral costs are rising. But than, who said that eve was fair. All the same old - and wrong - argument. In the past the t2 bpo holders could dictate the prices, but not any more. What do you think happens if they drop cheap stuff onto the market in the attempt to squeeze everyone out of the market? They just get sold out within a few minutes! There is absolutely NO WAY that you can build enough stuff from bpo's to saturate the current markets. I can build 10, 20, 50 times faster than any bpo simply because I can install 10, 20, 50 bpc concurrently. Sure I do not make that much profit per single run, but in the sum I make more much money than any bpo. Additionally I can freely chose and adept to the market while when I have a bpo I am always fixed to that item and if the market turns away from certain items (aka ccp nerfs stuff) then the bpo holders are really in a misery because they cannot change their product. But I can happily switch within a very short time to the more profitable product. So ... the advantage the bpo holders have is not really a big one, and only under special circumstances. Invention is fine and working very well. It is the moon reactions and the resulting products which are at discussion here. And it would be good to have some numbers so that serious discussion could start.
Astro Glyde	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:01:00 - [1452] AP - Reykjavik, Iceland December 12, 2008 - For Immediate Release CCP one of the worldÆs leading independent game developers, today fully disclosed details on its most recent scandal. One that could potentially have real-world implications of this most recent exploit which, some say, has been in effect for years. The producers of EVE Online, a player-driven persistent-world massively multiplayer online (MMO) game set in a science fiction space setting. And just as in real-life, it may require a financial bailout to counter its most recent catastrophe... [SNIP] Senior management at CCP held high level discussions in an attempt to resolve the vast and far reaching implications. "While most of the internal policies and decisions won't be publicly discussed, we are pleased to release this clip which clearly demonstrates our current course of action." said a senior game developer who asked to remain anonymous. Review Video
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:01:00 - [1453] I wonder how many millions of real money has been done with this. Sell T2 with massive endless supply to ISK -> sell ISK to real money. I am sure that many guys in those alliances went just silent after they have been offered a portion of the income. I just can't came up with other motive to keep your mouth shut about this. If this would have been just generating ISK for pvp, I am sure that someone would have bragged about this to someone. DEATH TO RMT's and MACROS!
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:03:00 - [1454] - I admitted that starting a sentence with a conjunction is becoming more acceptable "while this is changing" so I will admit that this is a nitpick. - Abstain is a verb that is used without an object. You can abstain /from/ doing something but you can't abstain yourself. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstain (since we are throwing URLs around) - A fragment sentence is a fragment. It doesn't mean that I couldn't find anything wrong with it but it does mean that the whole sentence is worded poorly or lacking in some way. - "Because the only way for a person to make another do something is through physical contact, right?" Do you realize how long just one post would be if every single sentence had to account for every possible meaning that every person might find in it? - "Regardless, 'You made me do it' was an hypocritical statement." That was not a hypocritical statement. It doesn't relate to my beliefs in any way and it was simply an attempt at humor that you clearly misinterpreted. - "if you find those words unusual or their use offensive" Never once did I say that the "big" words were unusual to me or that they were offensive in any way, I simply pointed out that the average English speaker will not know what they mean or how to properly use them. I apologize that this whole issue has been so blown out of proper proportions because clearly the sarcasm in my final sentence "Oh boy, now look what you made me do. (frown face)" was lost to your obviously superior intellectual mind. Unfortunately I will be ending this discussion because 1) it isn't relevant to this thread and 2) I have to continue trying to fix my install of the Eve client which won't launch after the patch. I am sure that any additional I can give to CCP about the issue will be of some help although their hands a bit busy dealing with other, more signifcant issues.
Max Khaos Anger Management Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:07:00 - [1455] Get into orbit, and reset the server, its the only way to be sure .....
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:09:00 - [1456] Originally by: Lord Untrustable interesting information relating to corps which have closed down (or been closed down) in the last few days: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corpchanges.html Sorry, that list is complete crap and absolutely worthless. I picked a few of the corps on the list and ... they are all alive and not closed at all!! They only left their alliance at that date. Either their joined a new alliance then or they just are without alliance now. But they are not closed down! Please don't post such nonsense. One could think that a smear campaign is going on. At best it is just incompetency resulting from grabbing some information out of context here and there and mixing them together, twisting them until they fit some pre-occupied perception and point of view. Maybe now you can see why it takes some time for CCP to go through all that stuff? They have to double and triple check everything!
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:10:00 - [1457] Originally by: Calleb This is bad m'kay no doubt about it. But 4 years? - Has it even been possible to do POS reactions for 4 years? If so then my life has been completely sucked away and I am going to petition that - lol No.
AnobizII Amarr Atos Research Atos Origins	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:10:00 - [1458] Originally by: Finderup Soren This is EVE...... It didnt change for me overnight because "some1" has had more ISK then me... I still change my skills .... I still fly in my ships..... All this little sand box game teaches u is that it is a cruel harsh world out there.... Live with it, or go play something else! Soren I completly agree, it aint affecting me or my alliance.
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:11:00 - [1459] Originally by: Gnulpie Maybe now you can see why it takes some time for CCP to go through all that stuff? They have to double and triple check everything! LOL do you think that CCP is doing their research at this THREAD?
Young Steptoe	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:12:00 - [1460] Originally by: Lord Untrustable Originally by: Katrina Marie interesting information relating to corps which have closed down (or been closed down) in the last few days: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corpchanges.html Holy hell! These are corp CHANGES. Not closures. Many of those corps are still alive and well, either their alliance closed (someone forgot to pay the fee) or they have moved to other alliances. This is not a list of corps which have closed, just had a change in their circumstances, most often due to their own decisions and not those of CCP.

Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:14:00 - [1461] Originally by: Mr Manufacture Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Orree RAWR corps split the monthly fuel bills. I used to buy Shiva's fuel every month (last time I did it was around 2-3 months ago). Even when hydrogen isotopes were priced crazy high, we never spent more than 6.5 bn a month for all our towers...Tribute and low-sec. We have not increased our number of towers substantially in quite some time. Approximately how many towers are you covering with 6.5 billion? 450 6.5 B ISK for 450 towers? Not even close. With 100 M ISK per month for large tower it would be 45 B ISK per month. Back in days when ice was like 700 ISK pu med tower costs per month were closer to 100 M ISK than 50 M ISK. You are stating that you can fund tower with 14.4 M ISK per month. Sure......................
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:15:00 - [1462] Originally by: Gnulpie All the same old - and wrong - argument. Your right it is the wrong place, but fact is that 80% of the t2 modules are sold below invention/production costs. e.g. It costs a maxrun bpc (copyslot) + datacores + research time to produce a 10 run bpc with a ME of -4. To get ME -1 you need very costly decryptors. If you take that into account, most of t2 market is shut off, specially since you can copy some t2 bpo very effectivly thus increasing the number of modules created. Apart from the few item that have such a high demand than old t2 bpo can not fill it up, the majority of the marktet is closed for inventors. Fact is fact. Though I will never await any t2 holder to agree on that.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:17:00 - [1463] For all those crying "Why didn't CCP's resident economist spot this sooner? Oh, teh tradegy!" Go watch Office Space ;) What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:25:00 - [1464] Originally by: Darteis Elosia Four more years! Four more years! Four more years! Four more years! ^^^^ THIS! *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
Mini14 Gallente I.M.M	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:25:00 - [1465] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Those crazy Icelanders ^This explains everything.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:27:00 - [1466] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 09:28:06 Originally by: Scoop de'Woop - Abstain is a verb that is used without an object. You can abstain /from/ doing something but you can't abstain yourself. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstain (since we are throwing URLs around) Abstain can be both transitive and intransitive. I used the transitive form, of which you are ignorant. Sorry but you shouldn't post references without reading them: "Abstain Abstain"\, v. t. To hinder; to withhold. Whether he abstain men from marrying. --Milton." It is not because a verb has an intransitive form that it can't have a transitive one as well. I hope this contributes to your knowledge of your* language. Quote: - A fragment sentence is a fragment. It doesn't mean that I couldn't find anything wrong with it but it does mean that the whole sentence is worded poorly or lacking in some way. And a highly subjective concept. I don't see anyting wrong with that sentence, for example. It is clear, unambiguous and I can't see what it may be lacking. Quote: I apologize that this whole issue has been so blown out of proper proportions because clearly the sarcasm in my final sentence "Oh boy, now look what you made me do. (frown face)" was lost to your obviously superior intellectual mind. As you should, as you started this completely offtopic discussion in which you have been proved not only wrong but completely hypocritical as well. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
AnobizII Amarr Atos Research Atos Origins	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:30:00 - [1467] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 09:28:06 Originally by: Scoop de'Woop - Abstain is a verb that is used without an object. You can abstain /from/ doing something but you can't abstain yourself. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstain (since we are throwing URLs around) Abstain can be both transitive and intransitive. I used the transitive form, of which you are ignorant. Sorry but you shouldn't post references without reading them: "Abstain Abstain"\, v. t. To hinder; to withhold. Whether he abstain men from marrying. --Milton." It is not because a verb has an intransitive form that it can't have a transitive one as well. I hope this contributes to your knowledge of your* language. Quote: - A fragment sentence is a fragment. It doesn't mean that I couldn't find anything wrong with it but it does mean that the whole sentence is worded poorly or lacking in some way. And a highly subjective concept. I don't see anyting wrong with that sentence, for example. It is clear, unambiguous and I can't see what it may be lacking. Quote: I apologize that this whole issue has been so blown out of proper proportions because clearly the sarcasm in my final sentence "Oh boy, now look what you made me do. (frown face)" was lost to your obviously superior intellectual mind. As you should, as you started this completely offtopic discussion in which you have been proved not only wrong but completely hypocritical as well. You guys have both went off topic... Take your handbags elsewhere....
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:38:00 - [1468] Originally by: Lord Untrustable Originally by: Gnulpie Maybe now you can see why it takes some time for CCP to go through all that stuff? They have to double and triple check everything! LOL do you think that CCP is doing their research at this THREAD? Lol, suggesting that someone would think so is quite funny in itself However, the mentioned example shows that if you come up with some data you still have to double check them. And then you need to think about what you have found there and which traces to follow next. This all takes time, a lot of time if done properly.
Solomon Weyland Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:42:00 - [1469] We demand the extradition of Kirk, we demand JUSTICE!
Todd Doughnut	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:48:00 - [1470] I just came down here to page 49 to see how you were all doing. I see the discussion has already entered the 'transitive and intransitive verb' phase. Im going to go back to page 730 in my time machine. We are talking about Rolf Harris down there, its much funnier.

Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.12.12 09:49:00 - [1471] Originally by: Lord Untrustable Originally by: Seth Vorlar -ghost nerv (pure money grab) For crying out loud!! You are like a freaking kid whos parents didn't give more candy... Does ANY corporation in the world produce their product and give it to their customers as free? Ghost training was unfair towards anyone who kept their accounts paid. IMHO CCP should run a database search and remove all ghost trained skill points. That would be fair towards us who has paid to train skills. i agree 100%.. but it still sucked big arse balls, and wasnt needed. hell i cancelled my alt account. but in understand ccp's point... althuogh i still think it was a bad decision on their behalf. the poeple who were hardcore enough to ghost train were most likely loyal fans. and we sorta got stabbed in the back a bit _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Algey The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:01:00 - [1472] Originally by: Lord Untrustable Originally by: Katrina Marie interesting information relating to corps which have closed down (or been closed down) in the last few days: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corpchanges.html Holy hell! That's rubbish. That is corps who've changed alliances and such as well (Celestial Apoc are still going, they just left Resurgency).
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:04:00 - [1473] Originally by: Astro Glyde AP - Reykjavik, Iceland December 12, 2008 - For Immediate Release CCP one of the worldÆs leading independent game developers, today fully disclosed details on its most recent scandal. One that could potentially have real-world implications of this most recent exploit which, some say, has been in effect for years. The producers of EVE Online, a player-driven persistent-world massively multiplayer online (MMO) game set in a science fiction space setting. And just as in real-life, it may require a financial bailout to counter its most recent catastrophe... [SNIP] Senior management at CCP held high level discussions in an attempt to resolve the vast and far reaching implications. "While most of the internal policies and decisions won't be publicly discussed, we are pleased to release this clip which clearly demonstrates our current course of action." said a senior game developer who asked to remain anonymous. Review Video Meh. We all know one of the C's in CCP stands for Catastrophy. It gives them and the things they do a whole lot of character IMO.
Mister Zero Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:05:00 - [1474] Originally by: Astro Glyde AP - Reykjavik, Iceland December 12, 2008 - For Immediate Release CCP one of the worldÆs leading independent game developers, today fully disclosed details on its most recent scandal. One that could potentially have real-world implications of this most recent exploit which, some say, has been in effect for years. The producers of EVE Online, a player-driven persistent-world massively multiplayer online (MMO) game set in a science fiction space setting. And just as in real-life, it may require a financial bailout to counter its most recent catastrophe... [SNIP] Senior management at CCP held high level discussions in an attempt to resolve the vast and far reaching implications. "While most of the internal policies and decisions won't be publicly discussed, we are pleased to release this clip which clearly demonstrates our current course of action." said a senior game developer who asked to remain anonymous. Review Video This is epic.
Little Daughter	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:18:00 - [1475] Edited by: Little Daughter on 12/12/2008 10:19:03 well, after all , does it mean high sec freighter ganking will be worth more isk than before ??????
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:24:00 - [1476] Of course, everything ever said on the internet is true, especially if it's said by anonymous people with bad english. Seriously... Most people here are truly idiots. And please, do feel offended. You deserve it. I just can't get over the amount of stupidity that permeates the forums lately. But i guess it's the same people who will gladly take anything that a tabloid says for the absolute truth. I mean, how can it not be true, it's tabloid! It's a scandal! It MUST be true, every single word! EVE History Wiki
WaiKin Beldar	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:30:00 - [1477] It's really funny what you can read on the Patch Notes of every major expansion and patch applied to this game: "... Exploit Fixes * Several exploits have been fixed making New Eden a better place for everyone. " Now, you tell me, up to what extent I can believe no one of the GMs knew about this issue during the last four years. If that is so, it means plain hard incompetence. Bad,really bad, but fixable. The alternative, which is even worst, means corruption. Absolutely no good for anyone.
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:32:00 - [1478] This is a great Christmas present for the players, far better than a patch. Merry Christmas, CCCP! You really cheered me up :) 4tw!
AnobizTrade	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:33:00 - [1479] Originally by: Reiisha Of course, everything ever said on the internet is true, especially if it's said by anonymous people with bad english. Seriously... Most people here are truly idiots. And please, do feel offended. You deserve it. I just can't get over the amount of stupidity that permeates the forums lately. But i guess it's the same people who will gladly take anything that a tabloid says for the absolute truth. I mean, how can it not be true, it's tabloid! It's a scandal! It MUST be true, every single word! HERE HERE (rabble rabble)
Typhena The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:33:00 - [1480] You know what makes me really sad? After 50 pages all we know about this event is .... nothing ! I am sorry, but I think we deserve to know what really happened. --- Sig Under Construction

Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:36:00 - [1481] Originally by: Typhena I'm being impatient. Why don't you wait about it?
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:39:00 - [1482] Heh, Typhena, you kinda beat me to it. I just went through all 50 pages hoping there would be some kind of follow up response by CCP. Disappointed tho I was, I was hardly surprised. Any business worth it's salt, understands the product quality and customer satisfaction is paramount. while I believe CCP desires a quality product, customer satisfaction is apparently a long way down the ladder.
ashellia	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:43:00 - [1483] lol, no use being mad guys.. just check out CAOD, the rich 0.0 folks are having a laugh about all this, "poor" empire dwellers now cant afford ** while the rich stayed rich.. 70 banned accounts? lolwut, supposed to be 700 imo.. anyways, enough of bawwwwing, just acccept all your hard work in inventions, mining etc are pretty much pointless now and just move on.... from CAOD: Originally by:** Viper **zIe Edited by: Viper **zIe on 12/12/2008 02:19:27 Originally by: Maltroc In the same system we are in ,another allianze had a secret But now they have changed the posfitting quickly. And nobody banned. Couple hours later: [16:12] <B> so evoke just confirmed it was KIA [16:13] <B> aswell [16:13] <M> LOL [16:13] <M> bahaha [16:13] <M> eddz down [16:13] <B> no apparently [16:13] <B> they changed all their pos fits [16:13] <B> before this hit EDIT: Added a bit of clarity and cleaned up the logs.
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:44:00 - [1484] Originally by: Fifinella Btw, has anyone checked the online game manual whether this is listed as a tip on how to make money for a beginner alliances? I'm just saying... Starting to get worried?
Maximus Lennicus Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:44:00 - [1485] Originally by: royal killer Everyone got greedy, and when they found out about this exploit, nobody said anything But, 4 whole years....that's like 1460 days and nobody said anything! absurd. (didn't know about this btw.) 1461..... you forgot the leap year. PS. Nice catch CCP....better late than never But if you think about it, the longer it was left, the more they lost so the bigger the punishment.
Typhena The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:45:00 - [1486] Edited by: Typhena on 12/12/2008 10:45:18 Originally by: Karille Why don't you wait about it? I am waiting .. but I was expecting more respect and transparency from CCP to all subscribers. I am pretty sure they will not fail to send the bill to my credit card... --- Sig Under Construction
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:47:00 - [1487] i think that this is really going on since poses where introduced. the one who made the initial post in the german eveo forum had no reason to lie. i believe him everything he said. hes banned anyway and feels com fortable with that, cause he deserved it as he said on his own. until now a huge part of his story had been proved to be true. so why he should lie about other details ? i also believe that those 70 banned accounts are only the peak of the iceberg. what about those 20 bob poses that were seen yesterday, exactly fitted for the exploit ? i dont believe that they all are unblamable. so if this was the big chunk that happened it will be very unsatisfactionary for me personally. i expect a lot more to clean this up. maybe even a server reset. but that would also hurt so many innocent people.. at least every ally which is involved should be completly reseted. i dont want to lose faith in ccp. i almost just started with this game and i dont want to have to leave it. hell perhaps even ccp employees were involved. in my eyes ccp shouldnt hesitate with harsh reactions to gain back some reliance.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:47:00 - [1488] http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/jun04.asp Four more events are to take place according to the prophecy and speculations about their nature abound. Many claim expertise in the prophecies, but none can inform us with any certainty about what is to transpire. The fourth event is described by Macaper as ôthe appetite of nothing expands over the worldö omg omg the end is near
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:51:00 - [1489] Originally by: Veroid i think that this is really going on since poses where introduced. the one who made the initial post in the german eveo forum had no reason to lie. i believe him everything he said. hes banned anyway and feels comfortable with that, cause he deserved it as he said on his own. until now a huge part of his story had been proved to be true. so why he should lie about other details ? Why would he lie? Possibly to create this enormous **storm to get back at CCP. Originally by:** Veroid i also believe that those 70 banned accounts are only the peak of the iceberg. what about those 20 bob poses that were seen yesterday, exactly fitted for the exploit ? i dont believe that they all are unblamable. Screenshots or STFU basically. Where is the proof?
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:52:00 - [1490] Originally by: Tasty Bit This is a great Christmas present for the players, far better than a patch. Merry Christmas, CCCP! You really cheered me up :) 4tw! Indeed! Now the big guys won't be stealing our pewpews! Stop whining.

sinqlaison Amarr Capital Builders Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:53:00 - [1491] 200,000 + reactions within a day, EVE rocks! Imagine 80% of all your RL countries citizens posting their surprise, anger, humor, hate and other emotions on a web site within 24 hours of a main financial scandal unfolding. Have you have heard of one lately? For the U.S. that would be a titanic thread of 220,000,000 reactions, 2,500 posts per second. If I were CCP I would not mind seeing these type of emotions evoked. Sceptical minds might even suspect a regular scandal being planned by lurking evil GMs in CCP high-rise quarters ;-)
WaiKin Beldar	Posted - 2008.12.12 10:56:00 - [1492] Originally by: sinqlaison 200,000 + reactions within a day, EVE rocks! Imagine 80% of all your RL countries citizens posting their surprise, anger, humor, hate and other emotions on a web site within 24 hours of a main financial scandal unfolding. Have you have heard of one lately? For the U.S. that would be a titanic thread of 220,000,000 reactions, 2,500 posts per second. If I were CCP I would not mind seeing these type of emotions evoked. Sceptical minds might even suspect a regular scandal being planned by lurking evil GMs in CCP high-rise quarters ;-) Control Crowd Productions
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:01:00 - [1493] Originally by: Mussaschi Originally by: Gnulpie All the same old - and wrong - argument. Your right it is the wrong place, but fact is that 80% of the t2 modules are sold below invention/production costs. e.g. It costs a maxrun bpc (copyslot) + datacores + research time to produce a 10 run bpc with a ME of -4. To get ME -1 you need very costly decryptors. If you take that into account, most of t2 market is shut off, specially since you can copy some t2 bpo very effectivly thus increasing the number of modules created. Apart from the few item that have such a high demand than old t2 bpo can not fill it up, the majority of the marktet is closed for inventors. Fact is fact. Though I will never await any t2 holder to agree on that. Sigh. Care to look the fact before posting? 1) for modules the only thing that change with ME is the quantity of minerals used, not of other components, especially not of the T2 materials or the T1 module. So the difference is usually very low isk wise. 2) yes, invention cost is much more important, but there are plenty of people that don't include the BPC cost and the datacores cost as they are "free" (in reality, self produced). Brownse a bit the forum and you will see tons of people saing that for them the datacores are free. 3) ships. Sure, there the BPO owner has a serious advantage, as the ME influence T2 components too. But still selling the right ships I get a decent quantity of isk. It is all demand vs offer. A lot of offer, limited demand, so price go as low as possible. Add some stupid producer that don't include all his costs and you get the current situation. About the "80% of the modules are sold below invention/production cost", what are you speaking of? 80% of the traded modules or 80% of the existent models? 80% of the traded modules? not at all. 80% of the existent modules, hardy probable, maybe 40%, but that is simply because they are modules with little use or with drawbacks against named T1. A splendid example are the T2 Armour plates, with the same hp and more weight that the Rolled Tungsten armour plates, available in large quantities from mission runners. Here the T2 price need to be lower than the meta 4 items price. And it is not the only module where a T2 items is worse than a T1 meta 4.
zag streller	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:02:00 - [1494] Given the size of this forum thread it appears to have got a large segment of the EVE player base involved. People complain about the lack of immersion in EVE. There have been parallels of such events in the real world. I worked for a major company that rigged the entire European steel market for years before being caught and subjected to gigantic fines (but they are still in business). There is an unprecedented opportunity here. Let's embrace this as a role-playing event within the EVE universe itself. We could have statements from the major faction leaders, CONCORD criminal investigations and trials with public hearings. Given how emotionally involved the players have become this could actually be turned into an epic event within the game environment itself rather than the negative and destructive RL approach thatÆs currently being pursued.
Draahk Chimera Caldari Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:03:00 - [1495] So they banned 70 alts. Oh noes!! What about the thousands of billions earned to a few alliances in game? The perticular avenue of free isk is now closed but what about friggin fairness? Will the offending alliances have all thair supercaps blown up, all their deathstars destroyed, all their dread and posfuel removed from corp hangars and all their outposts despawned? Or will every alliance who had no such exploit poses receve 1000 billion isk in chrismas gift? It doesent matter if they ban a few alt accounts if the unfair advantage they recieved isnt somehow made null by CCP.
AnobizII Amarr Atos Research Atos Origins	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:05:00 - [1496] Originally by: zag streller Given the size of this forum thread it appears to have got a large segment of the EVE player base involved. People complain about the lack of immersion in EVE. There have been parallels of such events in the real world. I worked for a major company that rigged the entire European steel market for years before being caught and subjected to gigantic fines (but they are still in business). There is an unprecedented opportunity here. Let's embrace this as a role-playing event within the EVE universe itself. We could have statements from the major faction leaders, CONCORD criminal investigations and trials with public hearings. Given how emotionally involved the players have become this could actually be turned into an epic event within the game environment itself rather than the negative and destructive RL approach that’s currently being pursued. Awesome idea lol... I wanna be juror lol
Alex555	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:05:00 - [1497] i think some hard steps should be taken. P.S. just wanted to leave something in this epic thread
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:05:00 - [1498] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Veroid i think that this is really going on since poses where introduced. the one who made the initial post in the german eveo forum had no reason to lie. i believe him everything he said. hes banned anyway and feels comfortable with that, cause he deserved it as he said on his own. until now a huge part of his story had been proved to be true. so why he should lie about other details ? Why would he lie? Possibly to create this enormous **storm to get back at CCP. Originally by:** Veroid i also believe that those 70 banned accounts are only the peak of the iceberg. what about those 20 bob poses that were seen yesterday, exactly fitted for the exploit ? i dont believe that they all are unblamable. Screenshots or STFU basically. Where is the proof? he doesnt bear hatred against ccp in one single word. i believe him and im a native german speaker so i think i even get whats "amongst the lines". if not, its a very very well made campaign. i was merely asking whats up with them for real. i havent seen them on my own. and what would a ss prove ? nothing. it would just fit perfectly in my image and i think its not unlikely. and i dont want to reduce that just to bob..i think the exploit was used in large pieces of the eve universe..
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:05:00 - [1499] Originally by: Veroid i think that this is really going on since poses where introduced. the one who made the initial post in the german eveo forum had no reason to lie. i believe him everything he said. hes banned anyway and feels com fortable with that, cause he deserved it as he said on his own. until now a huge part of his story had been proved to be true. so why he should lie about other details ? No reason to lie? He has showed that he cared for the power in game using this exploit, at the same time he has showed he don't care for the other players or game balance. So now his power has been removed, and you think that he is not bitter and angry and not trying to get back at CCP? You have a lot of misplaced faith in the fellow humans beings.
Major Buttache Coded Arms	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:07:00 - [1500] This exploit has far reaching consequences outside of EvE. The gaming industry produces more revenue than the film industry and is set to overtake the music industry again in terms of revenue. No longer is it the preserve of geeky basement dwellers and teenagers. And EvE is the metre stick of MMO economies, more so in some respects than Second Life and quite simply an exploit of this magnitude in one of the major players of the MMO genre will not go unnoticed. You could say that comparatively this exploit is in scale and consequence to issues of wide-spread race fixing in the horse racing industry. And before you dismiss that as wild over exaggeration and say æits only a gameÆ, no one likes to see their hard work and effort and financial investment undervalued by cheating s****in sport, games or any other endeavour. And additionally if a controlling body of any sport or game (as happened in horse racing) demonstrates an inability to self regulate and the damage significant enough legislation may have to be introduced to police it. Personally I would welcome more robust and comprehensive legislation governing the gaming industry and stop companies hiding behind their EULAÆs and become more accountable.

Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:09:00 - [1501] So, what about the GMs involved in intercepting petitions for their own personal gain (or for the personal gain of friends in game), and the GMs involved in alerting their friends that the exploit has been outed and that they need to rip down their towers or start reacting materials legitimately?
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:10:00 - [1502] Edited by: Veroid on 12/12/2008 11:13:02 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Veroid ... No reason to lie? He has showed that he cared for the power in game using this exploit, at the same time he has showed he don't care for the other players or game balance. So now his power has been removed, and you think that he is not bitter and angry and not trying to get back at CCP? You have a lot of misplaced faith in the fellow humans beings. no, i actually CAN read what he has written :) and not everyones luck is bound to his standing in the eve universe. there are still people out there which dont care that much. just imagine. edit: perhaps you forgot that he had petitioned it ? when there was no reaction he made the most fun of it.
WaiKin Beldar	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:10:00 - [1503] Originally by: zag streller Given the size of this forum thread it appears to have got a large segment of the EVE player base involved. People complain about the lack of immersion in EVE. There have been parallels of such events in the real world. I worked for a major company that rigged the entire European steel market for years before being caught and subjected to gigantic fines (but they are still in business). There is an unprecedented opportunity here. Let's embrace this as a role-playing event within the EVE universe itself. We could have statements from the major faction leaders, CONCORD criminal investigations and trials with public hearings. Given how emotionally involved the players have become this could actually be turned into an epic event within the game environment itself rather than the negative and destructive RL approach thatÆs currently being pursued. Given the size of your stupidity you chose the bad place for your pshycosocial experiments.
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:11:00 - [1504] Edited by: KISOGOKU on 12/12/2008 11:13:26 Actually pos exploit looks like same bug happened to Pos labs sometime ago and fixed (you could offline pos labs and jobs would continue ).What is weird is when labs fixed CCP did not look other areas Btw gnulpie said several times until invention moon mining was something alot of alliances did not bothered income/time ratio was not worth for alot ppl at 0.0 may be except industry freaks or alliances with tech2 bpos (even with exploit) only demand came from tech2 bpo owners and limited . If you would worry you should for last 2 years not for last 4years Originally by: Veroid i think that this is really going on since poses where introduced. the one who made the initial post in the german eveo forum had no reason to lie. i believe him everything he said.
Katrina Amazon	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:15:00 - [1505] It sucks cause why try so hard to play by the rules, and every one has not only aces up their sleeves but also has their coats stuffed full of spare decks and you look at *(allince) and think "*** must be a good leader" and it turns out hes actually a cheating b****d, no better then an aimbotter in an FPS game
August Stellaris	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:15:00 - [1506] This seems to be huge! I'm a rookie, but this must leave major impacts on the economy in Eve. A shame it took so long to unconver it.
Janiza Draken	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:15:00 - [1507] Could someone maybe explain what happend in detail or maybe point to a post that explains the whole situation? Reading 51 pages doesn't really help
Chuzakh Caldari H A V O C Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:16:00 - [1508] Originally by: C4w3 taken from eve-search http://eve-search.com/thread/216634/page/2#47 Maltroc Take me to the EVE-Online forum thread View author employment history View author posting habits View only posts by author Posted - 2005.09.01 16:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Maltroc on 01/09/2005 16:31:30 Originally by: kieronWhat Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others. Kieron could you check your email (I know you receive loads and are quite busy :) because our corp suffered from POS exploit some time ago. We petioned the event with quite a bit of evidence (fraps, howto). The GM closed the petition while providing another "solution" for the events. This caused a lot of frustration. Their solution isn't possible the given game mechanics. A second unanswered petition is still going this ages without answer while the first was lost... Now some days ago the same exploit happened again with another G POS. Well you can guess that we are a bit frustrated since we provided information how it happened while we get told something that doesn't even work. </understatement> PS: I won't go into the details because it would just get the thread locked. (sorry for late quote, didn't get to answer before) Honestly - this doesn't sound like a POS exploit which is actually printing money, I'd say the frustration-factor would be pretty slim with it. The phrasing "our corp suffered from POS exploit" is actually indicating that they had something done to them on a POS siege or something like that. Besides, even IFF this whole issue results from a bug which is in the game for 4 years, remember the state of the game and the company back then before condemning CCP for being a lousy developer. They had much less employees, were struggling through the starting years of running a MMO, and a much limited customer support. You're expecting (and I think rightfully, since often enough Eve is played not only as an internet-spaceship-game but much more) as much security & correctness in any aspects of the market as you would expect to meet in the real world. However, this goal is only achieveable with a tremendous amount of software-testing/model-checking/theorem-prooving etc., so even in RL its only done to the most critical aspects, e.g. on control software for planes/trains or in critical banking software. The associated cost for this is huge and surely not viable for a gaming company providing a spaceship-game platform for the community. Long rant short: Bugs like this will happen, and will happen again - there's no avoiding of them in such a complex software-system as Eve is. And to answer, why CCP couldn't find out the injection of the produced materials via looking into their logs, well its easy to answer this aswell: They get the data right there, and they get huge amounts of data. However, inferring correctly on what this data actually tells us is a process of datamining. Anyone who ever actually tried to "mine" for some useful data in a huge database might know that finding indicators in such a huge set of possible relevant datas, which point to some missbehaviour has as much to do with luck as it has with most thourough work. You will always find indicators supporting certain assumptions, i.e. "Why is the price for Ferrogel on the level it is", which may point into the wrong direction. And this is, when you begun to actually ask the RIGHT questions for your data. Finding those is a completely different matter. Long rant short: The logs, they show too much and it may be extremely difficult to find such an abuse in the noise of the other data. -- There's more to life than making plans - M. Pollack, J. Horty 2000
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:18:00 - [1509] Originally by: KISOGOKU Edited by: KISOGOKU on 12/12/2008 11:13:26 ... Originally by: Veroid ... 2 years with a financial impact.
Young Buck Minmatar StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:19:00 - [1510] I'm still waiting for: 1) Names. 2) This investigation to go deeper, I refuse to believe something of this magnitude only rests in the hands of 70 people. For me this whole thing has cast a black cloud over eve, it needs to be resolved and in full public view, no matter how deep... err high up... the rabbit hole goes. If ccp did this my faith in them would be renewed.

Hugh Hefner Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:20:00 - [1511] Surely all those bans will lead to inflated prices on Veteran Characters, not just T2-modules/ships?
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:20:00 - [1512] Originally by: Venkul Mul 2) yes, invention cost is much more important, but there are plenty of people that don't include the BPC cost and the datacores cost as they are "free" (in reality, self produced). Brownse a bit the forum and you will see tons of people saing that for them the datacores are free. Thx for giving me a great laugh. So datacores are free. Wonder why they sell for so much money. Please give me your free source. Would love to get it. And you clearly know a lot of people inventing such uncommon stuff, like t2 drones, launchers, ammu, shield amplifier, shield recharger ... so the volume stuff. Guess you don't Well I do understand any t2 holder, that want to keep thier honey pot, but please stay to real life, even if it is virtual ;)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:22:00 - [1513] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 12/12/2008 11:24:18 Originally by: Veroid Edited by: Veroid on 12/12/2008 11:13:02 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Veroid ... No reason to lie? He has showed that he cared for the power in game using this exploit, at the same time he has showed he don't care for the other players or game balance. So now his power has been removed, and you think that he is not bitter and angry and not trying to get back at CCP? You have a lot of misplaced faith in the fellow humans beings. no, i actually CAN read what he has written :) and not everyones luck is bound to his standing in the eve universe. there are still people out there which dont care that much. just imagine. edit: perhaps you forgot that he had petitioned it ? when there was no reaction he made the most fun of it. He can have written it very well and without showing anger but: 1) the simple fact that he put it on line after being banned for the exploit (so he wasn't urged by his conscience to in the attempt to inform CCP of a exploit) show that he cared. if he hadn't cared he would not have posted; 2) again, the simple fact that he used this exploit show that he cared for the power it gave him; 3) adding the reference to a token bug report in the first days of the POS is pretty laughable. Totally undemonstrable and a pure antithesis of the following use of the exploit. The English version I have read show a very smooth manipulator but don't show any reason to trust a know cheater. You really think that simply because he was banned someone that cheat and lie become a bastion of honesty and purity? Originally by: Veroid edit: perhaps you forgot that he had petitioned it ? when there was no reaction he made the most fun of it. Again, you take his words as gospel truth. But he admit to be a cheater. You don't have problems accepting undocumented statements by him?
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:22:00 - [1514] Edited by: Karille on 12/12/2008 11:23:43 Originally by: Mussaschi Thx for giving me a great laugh. So datacores are free. Wonder why they sell for so much money. Please give me your free source. Would love to get it. Research agents, they practically hand them out to anyone with the proper standings and skills. Those guys are nuts.
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:28:00 - [1515] Edited by: Mussaschi on 12/12/2008 11:29:49 Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 12/12/2008 11:23:43 Originally by: Mussaschi Thx for giving me a great laugh. So datacores are free. Wonder why they sell for so much money. Please give me your free source. Would love to get it. Research agents, they practically hand them out to anyone with the proper standings and skills. Those guys are nuts. Well I invested around 2 month in skills to work with currently 5 R&D Agents, each giving me around 2 datacores per day (which is nice) though I need between 2 - 128 per invention try (and try really means you could draw 22 blanks in a row (happend already to me)). Either you don't know what your talking about or this is pure FUD. Either way, please let it be.
Ironnight Caldari x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:30:00 - [1516] I have seen a MM member say that he knew about this bug a year ago and others say they petitioned it 4 years ago with no response, yet its news to CCP? Maybe they should focus on finding out why they keep finding themselfs in these situations where. They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap ' Doomsday
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:32:00 - [1517] Originally by: Mussaschi Edited by: Mussaschi on 12/12/2008 11:29:49 Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 12/12/2008 11:23:43 Originally by: Mussaschi Thx for giving me a great laugh. So datacores are free. Wonder why they sell for so much money. Please give me your free source. Would love to get it. Research agents, they practically hand them out to anyone with the proper standings and skills. Those guys are nuts. Well I invested around 2 month in skills to work with currently 5 R&D Agents, each giving me around 2 datacores per day (which is nice) though I need between 2 - 128 per invention try (and try really means you could draw 22 blanks in a row (happend already to me)). Either you don't know what your talking about or this is pure FUD. Either way, please let it be. Well you only appear to be using one character on one account. Think about it harder using 6 characters from 2 accounts.
Killa Babe'Ruth	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:32:00 - [1518] I got a great idea, CCP resets the server and everyone begins at 0 skills and 0 isk This isn't the first time a serious exploit has come to light and i'm sure it won't be the last. However it does give some clue as to how so many of these big name alliances are where they are today.
Lord Untrustable	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:33:00 - [1519] What large alliance started to crow fast after 2004 november? What large alliance has been big ever since and had massive capital replacement program? What large alliance has been able to hold it's grounds ever since?
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:36:00 - [1520] Originally by: Ironnight I have seen a MM member say that he knew about this bug a year ago and others say they petitioned it 4 years ago with no response, yet its news to CCP? Maybe they should focus on finding out why they keep finding themselfs in these situations where. I would guess CCP can't do anything if a GM just closes/deletes the petition. Now, why would a GM do that?

Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:37:00 - [1521] Originally by: Lord Untrustable What large alliance started to crow fast after 2004 november? What large alliance has been big ever since and had massive capital replacement program? What large alliance has been able to hold it's grounds ever since? What large alliance has encouraged it's members to become GMs?
Veroid	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:37:00 - [1522] Originally by: Venkul Mul ... is just said that i believe him, not that he must be believed. in the german forum he has written more than the one statement youve read. just my point of view.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:39:00 - [1523] Originally by: Mussaschi Originally by: Venkul Mul 2) yes, invention cost is much more important, but there are plenty of people that don't include the BPC cost and the datacores cost as they are "free" (in reality, self produced). Brownse a bit the forum and you will see tons of people saing that for them the datacores are free. Thx for giving me a great laugh. So datacores are free. Wonder why they sell for so much money. Please give me your free source. Would love to get it. And you clearly know a lot of people inventing such uncommon stuff, like t2 drones, launchers, ammu, shield amplifier, shield recharger ... so the volume stuff. Guess you don't Well I do understand any t2 holder, that want to keep thier honey pot, but please stay to real life, even if it is virtual ;) Boy, train basic reading comprension at least to 1. I don't think datacore are free, but you can find a lot of people that think that way, like you can find a lot of people that think that the minerals you mine yourself are "free". For them anything you don't pay isk for is "free". The sad part is that they base their prices on that assumption. Invented ammunitions? Sure there are tons of people inventing barrage ammunition as it is the only one with a widespread use and so a market worth inventing. T2 drones? Hammereads, some of the large drones. T2 launchers? margin is not stellar, but my trade in T2 launchers (heavy and cruise) go very well. I suggest you learn how the virtual life work before sentencing on it. You have never done a spreadsheet on invention, with cost and success rates, to see your return, right? Sure you don't get a 300-400% return as in the beginning of invention, but on modules I can get a 50% gain with most of them. Do your homework and don't sell in Jita.
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:41:00 - [1524] Originally by: Karille Well you only appear to be using one character on one account. Think about it harder using 6 characters from 2 accounts. please. So I train every alt for 2 month (at least I can not train more than one alt at a time), mission grind a 2 month to get him the standing to work with the R&D agent and buy some extra accounts, only to still not beeing able to compete? Hey it is as simple as that. I like this game, even knowing that CCP hands out a lot of extra sugar to the older players, beeing in thier own league, which I will never reach (within the game mechanics). Ok, I can live with that. Even with CCP trying to paint this stuff. But please don't try to convince me that this is fair. I know this game quite well.
jimera muroaga	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:48:00 - [1525] CCP has a huge task at hand here: Not only must they have an internal investigation to find out if and who of their employees was involved in this scandal. They must also sift trough years of transaction data to find the characters involved,.. Characters that left their alliances / corps to create new [alt] corps. Entirely new alt corps created that were involved. etc. Just banning a few members [read: alts] and disbanding the corps isn't enough. Any alliance that had a corp involved in this scandal should have all their Senior accounts and assets deleted, on an Alliance level, the alliance stripped and disbanded. Further more... a little search on ebay shows huge amounts of isk being on offer for real money. Needless to say that it is very likely that that isk has been generated by means of this exploit. Further RL investigations in the persons directly involved in this trade must be done!
Nidel Shawen Caldari Virtual Warriors Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:49:00 - [1526] Is there any further official announcements yet?
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:50:00 - [1527] Originally by: jimera muroaga CCP has a huge task at hand here: Not only must they have an internal investigation to find out if and who of their employees was involved in this scandal. There's no "if" about it.
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:50:00 - [1528] Originally by: Venkul Mul Sure you don't get a 300-400% return as in the beginning of invention, but on modules I can get a 50% gain with most of them. Do your homework and don't sell in Jita. Well, I sold around 800M in invented stuff the last 30d (without beeing bankrupt), but thanks for implying that I don't know what I am doing. I still like inventing stuff, but please tell why my margin of 5 - 25% is fair compared to 30% - 200%. Ps. spreadsheets are out. There is a great programm for inventors giving you the same number much faster
IMORTALL11	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:51:00 - [1529] IN WHICH FORUM A PLAYER WRITE ABOUT EXPLOID???I WONT TO READ IT
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:52:00 - [1530] dayumn... i want free iskies too CCP.. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..

Dr Karsun Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:58:00 - [1531] Hmm, this is gonna be funny... I better spend all my money on t2 mods and stuff before the prices go up by 500% or even more. They say there were 70 accounts banned, so probably a lot more were involved, but didn't really show off or were middle-men who can easily avoid banning. But, seriously, got to buy a -lot- of t2 modules now for safe keeping. I also wonder how fast will the ammount of materials on the market drop. I guess all producers using these materials will now empty their wallets to get them cheap while there are any to buy left on the market. Ps - God damn... 4 years? Is that true? ------------------------ My Deviantart profile
Ordais	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:03:00 - [1532] Edited by: Ordais on 12/12/2008 12:05:02 I know i stand alone with this, but there is only one way to go: GENERAL AMNESTY Why? This is so out of proportion and so out of control that CCP can't ban all and undo all damage. This means they will undo just some dmg and will ban a few involved. Now, some will say: fine with me, at least some of the bastards got banned. But in the end you are just rewarding the ones who never get caught because you are eliminating their competitors, the only competitors that play on the same lvl as them. After this half-assed cleanup they will be the ultimate winners in EVE. I did rather stop the exploit and give amnesty so that the powerblocks can now destroy eachother. If you remove 1-2 powerblocks but let the rest stand, its just like rewarding them again. EDIT: and yes, my main is so old that in some point in time i was probably part of an alliance that used it. but i dont know, i can only assume. But if everyone used it, then who cares. I'm rather interested in what happens for my future gameplay, that is what counts and what i pay for.
Kong Tse OPUS Administration Department OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:10:00 - [1533] 4 years until you fixed this! Shame on you CCP!
sinqlaison Amarr Capital Builders Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:10:00 - [1534] Originally by: Ordais Edited by: Ordais on 12/12/2008 12:05:02 I know i stand alone with this, but there is only one way to go: GENERAL AMNESTY Your not alone, you have at least 70 people who will back you up ;-)
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:11:00 - [1535] Exploit hexsploit it's all the same to me. The more toys the industrialists have the more toys we get to break. I declare this whole thing irrelevant for small pvp organisations. G'day Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
ashellia	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:15:00 - [1536] Originally by: Ordais Edited by: Ordais on 12/12/2008 12:05:02 I know i stand alone with this, but there is only one way to go: GENERAL AMNESTY Why? This is so out of proportion and so out of control that CCP can't ban all and undo all damage. This means they will undo just some dmg and will ban a few involved. Now, some will say: fine with me, at least some of the bastards got banned. But in the end you are just rewarding the ones who never get caught because you are eliminating their competitors, the only competitors that play on the same lvl as them. After this half-assed cleanup they will be the ultimate winners in EVE. I did rather stop the exploit and give amnesty so that the powerblocks can now destroy eachother. If you remove 1-2 powerblocks but let the rest stand, its just like rewarding them again. EDIT: and yes, my main is so old that in some point in time i was probably part of an alliance that used it. but i dont know, i can only assume. But if everyone used it, then who cares. I'm rather interested in what happens for my future gameplay, that is what counts and what i pay for. says the BOB alt :/
AnobizII Amarr Atos Research Atos Origins	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:16:00 - [1537] Originally by: Crellion Exploit hexsploit it's all the same to me. The more toys the industrialists have the more toys we get to break. I declare this whole thing irrelevant for small pvp organisations. G'day Exactly... Lets put this thing to rest until such times as ccp do release something that explains the situation... All this fighting and squabbling on a forum isn't getting anybody anywhere so what exactly is the point of everyone shouting and trying to get there voices herd, its like going to a classroom and everyone starts shouting at the teacher at once, they can only answer one at a time... p.s im not in school...
Ordais	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:21:00 - [1538] Originally by: ashellia Originally by: Ordais Edited by: Ordais on 12/12/2008 12:05:02 I know i stand alone with this, but there is only one way to go: GENERAL AMNESTY Why? This is so out of proportion and so out of control that CCP can't ban all and undo all damage. This means they will undo just some dmg and will ban a few involved. Now, some will say: fine with me, at least some of the bastards got banned. But in the end you are just rewarding the ones who never get caught because you are eliminating their competitors, the only competitors that play on the same lvl as them. After this half-assed cleanup they will be the ultimate winners in EVE. I did rather stop the exploit and give amnesty so that the powerblocks can now destroy eachother. If you remove 1-2 powerblocks but let the rest stand, its just like rewarding them again. EDIT: and yes, my main is so old that in some point in time i was probably part of an alliance that used it. but i dont know, i can only assume. But if everyone used it, then who cares. I'm rather interested in what happens for my future gameplay, that is what counts and what i pay for. says the BOB alt :/ Think what you want, if you really believe they can get everyone who did this, you live in a nice hello kitty world. CCP doesnt even have all the logs needed to check this. But i suppose you are like most ppl that can be satisfied with someone to lynch, fine with me, you are not alone. Oh, and Bob should be quite happy atm no? All who got banned are from the other side of the fence for what is known.
Reithar Amarr BAD WOLF INC. No Apology	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:25:00 - [1539] Hi there i have read this link and I like to respond to what I have read. When reading this 'link' i felt like everybody else that it isn't fair what those players did! I totaly aqgreed with CCP that they banned those players from EVE and destroyed there posses. The main reason for that is they abused an exploid and that isn't fair to others. But on the other hand the market in EVE is accustomed to such a flow in components for a very long period (4 years). That by removing everything it will have a giant impact on everything that is going on at the T2 marktet. This means (netto/netto) that every player in EVE is being punnished because a small group did find an exploid. That doesn't appear to be fair / honnest to all those other players. Everybody will suffer from this..... The story get stranger / more intresting........ After reading this i took the liberty to have a look in google and did find a site called scraphead. And i did read a response from one of the players that was banned. This makes it even more intresting..... Player involved wrote how they found this exploid and what they did after they found it... - It was reported to CCP to make them aware of the exploid. - They only received a confirmation and that it was closed. If this is true (I do not have any reason to doubt that at this time) the reaction of CCP to this exploid after 4 years goes a bit far.....and is rather out of line. Short spoken you can say: This is not done. Especially seen the fact that it was reported and was used for more then 4 years. Hench everybody is being punnished due to the fact that CCP has slipped this reported problem / exploid because the whole T2 market will have to recover from what CCP did. Instead they should have fixed the exploid and then regulate the market for a certain amount of time so the impact wouldn't have such a dissasterious outcome to all of us players. CCP is in there right to react like they did as long as they didn't have the information in an earlier stage and declined there intrest in this exploid. CCP should look at there own departments for neglecting this reported exploid. And again it is not done to punish all for an abused exploid a few found out over such a long period.. . Just a concerned player
EpicFailTroll	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:25:00 - [1540] R E B O O T

Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:27:00 - [1541] Originally by: Reithar After reading this i took the liberty to have a look in google and did find a site called scraphead. And i did read a response from one of the players that was banned. This makes it even more intresting..... Lol ------- "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2008.12.12 12:49:00 - [1542] I think it's awesome! I'm in this game for the complexity, what better than an old fashioned, far-reaching scandal? I can't wait to see the effect on the market, it's gonna be wild and fun. I'm new to invention and manufacturing, but have been a miner since the beginning, an upsidedown T2 market has got to mean some isk making opportunities. Most of the time you just read about this stuff in the "fake news" in you IGB, now it is here for real. Sounds like CCP will sort it out. Thay have already started by telling us, and I'm sure the rest is on the way. Oh, and so I don't have to put my asbestos underpants on- I realize that my Main and Alts are only about a year old, I don't have the massive time and effort that many of you older players have put into your operations. So for me it is a minor thing, too you all it probably has more sting.
Suga H Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:01:00 - [1543] Silence isn't the answer, CCP.
Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:15:00 - [1544] Originally by: Typhena You know what makes me really sad?After 50 pages all we know about this event is .... nothing ! I am sorry, but I think we deserve to know what really happened. Originally by: Suga H Silence isn't the answer, CCP. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Is that an answer? It's in the first message of this very thread. It sort of looks like an answer to me. Almost if they're saying "we'll tell you more as soon as we know more". Wait, they are. Sheesh, some people.
Crassus Silverwolf Caldari Liberty Forces Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:17:00 - [1545] Well done CCP and good to see that you have caught these cheats....... If it did take 4 years to find out then not so good but it is good to see that if you **** about then it will have consequences eventually.... This could make the current wars in 0.0 look intresting if some of those Alliances have been using this exploit to fund their Wars... Keep up the banning CCP and make them cry hard
MEBHansen Darwin With Attitude	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:19:00 - [1546] Originally by: Fifinella Is that an answer? It's in the first message of this very thread. Sheesh, some people. ofc it's in the first msg of this thread. Otherwise we would have to plough through 50+ pages to see if there's any news. 'Edit'-button ftw.
jimera muroaga	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:19:00 - [1547] Edited by: jimera muroaga on 12/12/2008 13:21:11 http://www.kuguts umen.com/showthread.php?t=3428 APPENDIX A - AMT Alt List: * Aldo Idahar / Niame * Alexander Crichton / grrSkiller / Onan derBarbar / (Cynoalts: Kotfried vonBraun / Bumskloeten Jack) * Amy Smart / Cynn Devona / Gregorius Agricola / Dr Theopolis / sweet maya * Arela Xen / Rebelina Xen / Kamodin / Nefertina Gatsuuga / (Cynonupps: Oneway Road / One WayRoad) / (Hauler/Scoutnup: Arelalala) * ardil * b3nwish / sephyre / Heratin * BronkZor, brnkzAlt, Hoe istie * Chronical / Parantez / Yohanna Anjardo / rid**** X / Corp DuAquin * Chucks0r / Cadalia * Cmd Woodlouse * crashilein / Minerbabe / BobDerBaumeister / moonluda / Uxorcula * Diehn / Thaard Bof't (ist anubis ) * Django / Shanni * DrRockIT / Bumpy Knuckles * Eaan Thurs / 3xcit3 / Abaddon Doomhammer * Floppy96 / Frida Floppy / Blue Engel * Giselee / Zuzanny / Trade Gis * Guurel / Guurel's Slave * Gyro DuAquin1 / Elenor / gyro orvolle / gyro agil * Jake Dragon / wolver1n * Kaeldavan / Niliyu * Kerawkes / Telia Rand * kloetis / jason downset * Lord Fantus / Rasputin Jones * LordCypher / Sir Fuzzyhead * Luca Murphy * Lucy Foxx / John Foxx / John Crystal / (cyno chars: Aerona Flux / Aerona Fluxx) * MacDuncan / MacDune * Maltroc / T0M85 / Jintokora / Tara Sperrow * Marszine (ist taschenlampenmann bzw kma ) * Mitthrawn / C'aprica Dawn * Moppinator / warf / Marie Juana / Marie Juhana * Moql Nkkn * Needer / Bestia Negra * nostramo * philip3000, Judge Them, Silencer * RainE Daze / Sabri Zahir * Ramireza * Raukho / Hiauki * Reto Kobelt / Eiserner Engel * Rheinkraft10 / Mistrezz * Ricarda M / Ricarda M2 / Caldari Citizen 20020 * RuffRyder * Saya Khio * Schneiderr / Analogue Brain / Closetodeath * seiko seven * sey'ada / stalemate kazumi * Sir Oni / Garmah / Riikka May * Sir Pip / Tushani * Slan Traveller / Slan Broker * St3gi, Shivazun * Taz / Chip a / ich hau dich ins Ei * The Pacman / Femme Extrema / Alina Matari * TheSizzler / Tara Intaki / Demi X * Tim Helmert / Astro Creep / Spangie / Soy Lamuerte / (Capital Alt's: Aleksandr Malthus / Davs) * Treaton Rhumburac / BIackpriest / Cychuck / Black Distress * Tribune Maximus / Dragoon VanZan / Dragoon ToyoShima * TSS1 / Kathi / Woody / Estamel1 / Degron / Mclelle * Turkantho / Enjehl Deesaiha / Thorsten Tabulator / Vincent Volante / Tarnic Greeh / Wusa * under taker / shira cruise * vaapad * vipy * Willington / Carthaja / cold0r
jimera muroaga	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:20:00 - [1548] APPENDIX B - AMT T2 BPOs Ship BPOs * Claymore * Claymore * Eos * Muninn * Sabre * Crow * Manticore Module BPOs * 1MN Afterburner II * 100MN Afterburner II * Standard Missile Launcher II * Rocket Launcher II * Large Shield Extender II * Large Shield Booster II * Medium Armor Repairer II * Tracking Disruptor II * Heavy Electron Blaster II * Heavy Ion Blaster II * 220mm Vulcan Autocannon II * 75mm Gatling Rail II * Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II * Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II * Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II * Damage Control II * Radar Backup Array II * Medium Capacitor Battery II * Large Capacitor Battery II * Small Capacitor Booster II * Small Energy Transfer Array II * Miner II Ammo BPOs * Barrage M * Barrage M * Hail M * Tremor M * Tremor L * Spike L * Javelin L * Null L * Aurora S * Inferno Javelin Torpedo * Inferno Rage Torpedo * Bane Javelin Torpedo * Bane Rage Torpedo * Paradise Precision Cruise Missile * Hellfire Rage Assault Missile * Foxfire Javelin Rocket Drohnen BPOs * Infiltrator II * Hornet II
Azuraito Caldari Villains	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:25:00 - [1549] Originally by: Suga H Silence isn't the answer, CCP. CCP dont give a ** about you! so no answer will be forthcoming! All they care about is the gold lining their pockets.. Would be nice to have CCP naming and shaming the culprits, but it seems ****** got there first again! LaVista Vista for president!** .
Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:27:00 - [1550] Originally by: jimera muroaga Edited by: jimera muroaga on 12/12/2008 13:21:11 http://www.kuguts umen.com/showthread.php?t=3428 APPENDIX A - AMT Alt List: Thank you for your well thought-out reply and interesting list of meaningless drivel. I'm sure CCP will immediately rush over to ban accounts based on the recommendations of a banned player. You do know CCP has several tools at their disposal to find out who's who's alt? "Guessing" isn't very high on that list.

Azuraito Caldari Villains	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:28:00 - [1551] Originally by: Azuraito Originally by: Suga H Silence isn't the answer, CCP. CCP dont give a ** about you! so no answer will be forthcoming! All they care about is the gold lining their pockets.. Would be nice to have CCP naming and shaming the culprits, but it seems ****** got there first again! OMG.. K U G U T S U M E N is a banned word! LaVista Vista for president!** .
Arianhod	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:34:00 - [1552] Experts are calling this a Charlie Foxtrot. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. Haruhiists - Supporting Linkification since 2008
Atharax	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:42:00 - [1553] Originally by: Alois Hammer ....but also by artificially deflating the market they now driven the smaller manufacturers out of business by undercutting to the point of devaluing items. which is bad bad business. basically he who gets free stuff makes more free stuff and gets all the isk with none of the work Yes, I have very good industrial, mining and refining skills. But for a long time I have hardly produced anything. Now this fact have been brought into the open, I am very upset. It wasn't profitable for me, not compared to what was offered on the market. So I really wondered what was going on here in Eve. I had my suspicions, that it was somehow connected to ISK to RL currency converting. But without solid facts it was not much that could be said or done. Where do we go from here? I really don't know. A game economy isn't anything like the real world one, things happen a lot faster in a game, but some mechanisms are necessarily the same. I wonder that one way of stabilizing things would be what the real world governments do, they get into the commercial part of things. Even in the USA they have started to nationalize banks, imagine that! The cure here for us who wish to continue to play is not that radical, but similar. We need stability! Can we get the NPC corporation back as trading and selling partners? I think that would provide the best way to provide stable prices and uphold a functioning market model. In short, this would both allow and provide a situation where we could continue our gameplay.
Smith Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:44:00 - [1554] Whats the point of naming and shaming if the players have been banned...it not like they are going to be involved in this game anymore?
Daoi Sith	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:45:00 - [1555] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Noriko Rei CCP has fixed the exploit. CCP has banned numerous accounts, and more will likely follow, based on conclusive evidence of directly utilizing a bug for gain. CCP has destroyed every POS verifiably involved in the matter. The game will move forward. Prices will go up and folks won't like it, but prices can't rise above what the market will bear, or goods simply won't be sold. The market will balance itself under these new conditions without an influx of materials pulled out of thin air. It is reasonable to expect CCP to correct the matter as far as ensuring it cannot continue and punishing those who clearly, willfully abused the game. It is also reasonable to question how this could've slipped through the cracks for four years. It is unreasonable, however, to expect that CCP can (or should) punish everyone who conceivably benefited from this problem, as that would include every player who has ever purchased T2 equipment; your costs were lowered overall by an influx of "free" materials. What I find most boggling is the fact that EVE has a dedicated economist who didn't spot this. Perhaps CCP should hire or assign employees to periodically audit corporation and alliance finances to identify such egregious abuses in the future. I also find it hard to believe that the people taking advantage of this broken game mechanic for so long didn't brag to their friends. Those people who knew it was happening may benefit the most, as they are equally guilty for allowing such activity to continue without notifying CCP, yet they cannot be conclusively linked to the wrongdoing itself. While many are quick to lambast CCP for the current situation, I presume there were a great many players who sold their integrity over the past four years for a few kickbacks from the direct offenders. I'd like to thank CCP for executing justice as swiftly as possible and fixing the exploit so this can't happen again. And Santa Claus will save us all, this Dec 25th. Now go to your dad and tell him to explain to you hw you were born. Please, there should be a minimum age to post in these threads... PS. If you are not a 12 year old boy, I really pity you. somehow you have managed to completely ignore probably the most reasonable and balanced comment in this thread and then go on to make personal insults. nothing in the post is immature. it is a calm, rational post. your response however is a different matter. in fact your post is so ironic I cant help but feel i just responded to a troll
Nouva MacGyver	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:47:00 - [1556] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Great, can't wait for the aftermath. In the meantime.. Yes, i've been greedy. I've held onto the BPO for far too long. It's time to share: *WTS: Large Drama-Type Popcorn BPCs*
Azuraito Caldari Villains	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:49:00 - [1557] Originally by: Smith Whats the point of naming and shaming if the players have been banned...it not like they are going to be involved in this game anymore? Would be nice to know if BOB also had a hand in the cookie jar... Wouldnt be the first time would it? LaVista Vista for president! .
Agnemon	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:52:00 - [1558] POPCORN POPCORN GET YOUR POPCORN HERE POPCORN FOR FERROGEL, POPCORN FOR FERROGEL
Norian Lonark Gallente Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:55:00 - [1559] I am looking forward to CCP posting some sort of response in addition to what has already been posted. It would seem that an event such as this would merit one, rather than having to wait in the dark with peoples imagination running wild. As a miner/industrialist type, I have often looked at getting into production but just felt its not worth it as there is no way I can compete with the prices. As some previous posters stated this exploit has probably had quite a lot to do with that. From my point of view playing the game, it wont really impact me a lot, I will still logon fly my ships, do my missions, mine the belts etc. The interesting thing for me is where it goes from here. I doubt that CCP will have any sort of bailout plan as is being suggested, why would we want that? If market prices go up and people are now producing goods on an even playing field, surely that is better for us the players? This whole thing does make you wonder though, I mean if this has been going on for 4 years, what other things are going to come out the closet so to speak
Iluminat Minmatar Sharp Dressed Man	Posted - 2008.12.12 13:59:00 - [1560] Is this gonna have some effect on ETC since isk printers are offline? I hope prices gonna drop to normal prices because i cant compete agains people who offers insane amount of free isk for a 60 days code

Inmate 854	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:00:00 - [1561] Edited by: Inmate 854 on 12/12/2008 14:02:31 Where do we go from here? I really don't know. A game economy isn't anything like the real world one, things happen a lot faster in a game, but some mechanisms are necessarily the same. I wonder that one way of stabilizing things would be what the real world governments do, they get into the commercial part of things. Even in the USA they have started to nationalize banks, imagine that! The cure here for us who wish to continue to play is not that radical, but similar. We need stability! Can we get the NPC corporation back as trading and selling partners? I think that would provide the best way to provide stable prices and uphold a functioning market model. In short, this would both allow and provide a situation where we could continue our gameplay. Absolutely Not! They last thing CCP should do is do anything to prop up the market. I think its BS that the banks in the US are getting a bailout and providing NPC sell orders for any moon mins would be just as bad. Will prices rise? Probably yes aside from the imediate kneejerk reaction to the news. Time will tell. But as someone who runs a legitimate POS reaction this is exciting news. I imagine fuel cost will go down (less fake reactor POS's sucking up fuel) and with a lower supply of legitimate T2 componenets prices and profits to increase. More reason to fight over moons for the POS war people, more action for traders, more reasons to try out alchemy, more consequence to losing stuff via PVP. All these are good things IMO. Sucks that this exploit happened, but I think the aftermath could make Eve a more interesting place for all. Edit to add one more plus, GTC price in isk may fall due to 70 less buyers per month
Ivan Kinsikor Amarr Void Engineers Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:01:00 - [1562] Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 12/12/2008 14:01:34 [tinfoilhat] 4 years ago is quite a while, and CCP employees skirting the rules to take advantage of things in game isn't exactly unheard of. So dare I ask, what if the person who saw that exploit report buried it and decided to use it to their own advantage? [/tinfoilhat] Now if CCP would just get rid of GTC sales, the Eve economy will be great! ---------------------------------------- *****es don't know 'bout my nano'd Titan ----------------------------------------
Valron Xizor The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:01:00 - [1563] Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher I think it's awesome! I'm in this game for the complexity, what better than an old fashioned, far-reaching scandal? I can't wait to see the effect on the market, it's gonna be wild and fun. I'm new to invention and manufacturing, but have been a miner since the beginning, an upsidedown T2 market has got to mean some isk making opportunities. Most of the time you just read about this stuff in the "fake news" in you IGB, now it is here for real. Sounds like CCP will sort it out. Thay have already started by telling us, and I'm sure the rest is on the way. Oh, and so I don't have to put my asbestos underpants on- I realize that my Main and Alts are only about a year old, I don't have the massive time and effort that many of you older players have put into your operations. So for me it is a minor thing, too you all it probably has more sting. Ah good old school boy mentality. It's like when the the fuel protests brought our country to a halt a few years ago... There was something awsome about the chaos even though we couldn't drive anywhere :D
EnslaverOfMinmatar Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:03:00 - [1564] If you were exploiting, contract all your ferrogel to me so CCP won't ban you since you won't have any ferrogel. Hah! uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
Penthux Amarr Nimbus Corporation Orange Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:08:00 - [1565] I want to see a list of banned players. I want to see who's been screwing us. I want to know who is to blame. I want satisfaction and justification for the real euros I pay to play this game. http://www.penthux.net/gfx/signas/penthux.jpg
Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:15:00 - [1566] Originally by: Penthux I want to see who's been screwing us. If you don't know that yourself, might I suggest you start cutting down your alcohol intake?
moppie machina	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:18:00 - [1567] Has anyone noticed the many type-II BPO's up for sale in the 'sell orders' section of eve-forum the last week and a half or so? like: HULK BPO [by BoB] and Huginn BPO [also by BoB] and many more,.. i've seen covops cloak-II, Anathema, Helios.. etc etc CCP.. shouldn't these and all type-2 bpo's be frozen untill they have been cleared ?
Typhena The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:24:00 - [1568] This is getting even more serious ... And .. nothing from CCP yet .. --- Sig Under Construction
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:27:00 - [1569] Originally by: Typhena This is getting even more serious ... And .. nothing from CCP yet .. And what should they write? That they are throwing everything they have into this investigation? And that they will inform us as soon as they have new results? Oh wait ... they already said that ...
Atharax	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:31:00 - [1570] Originally by: Inmate 854 Absolutely Not! They last thing CCP should do is do anything to prop up the market. I think its BS that the banks in the US are getting a bailout and providing NPC sell orders for any moon mins would be just as bad. Will prices rise? Probably yes aside from the imediate kneejerk reaction to the news. Time will tell. But as someone who runs a legitimate POS reaction this is exciting news. I imagine fuel cost will go down (less fake reactor POS's sucking up fuel) and with a lower supply of legitimate T2 componenets prices and profits to increase. More reason to fight over moons for the POS war people, more action for traders, more reasons to try out alchemy, more consequence to losing stuff via PVP. All these are good things IMO. Sucks that this exploit happened, but I think the aftermath could make Eve a more interesting place for all. Edit to add one more plus, GTC price in isk may fall due to 70 less buyers per month Hello Inmate (and you're one alt also but I wont flame you for that) I made a suggestion, I might have been wrong on the solution. But I never suggested that moon materials should be offerend by NPC corps, neither that they be purchased. Instead that the model from the early years of the game be used, that involved standard minerals from asteroids, tech 1 ships and modules, and various tradegoods. Anyhow, fact remains, that we need stability here. It would be best for all involved.

Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:31:00 - [1571] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Typhena This is getting even more serious ... And .. nothing from CCP yet .. And what should they write? That they are throwing everything they have into this investigation? And that they will inform us as soon as they have new results? Oh wait ... they already said that ... Don't waste your breath, Typhena isn't actually reading this thread, only posting into it.
BogWopit Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:32:00 - [1572] say this looks like a neat bandwagon, I think I'll join it, NAP it, and blob ccp with it.
EVE CORE	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:36:00 - [1573] with everything aside, I'm hoping that with the fall of exploit mining this will make moon mining more lucrative & worthwhile for the small corps/lone wolfs out there that want to try thier hand at it.
Orosinii Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:38:00 - [1574] Fun times ahead in the T2 market. CCP tbh this is your fault to allow such a massive flaw in game mechanics to remain in the system for 4 years (unless it was planned) is terrible. If however this was part of a masterplan, whilst the colonisation of space took place since the inception of POS warfare it is genius. Regardless of what happens, I log into eve for fun. This has certainly made the game more entertaining and if it brings back an increase to T2 prices it may also (via greed) get rid of the superblob element of eve that we currently have. Yes it is galling to realise that for the past 4 years there have been various players who have bucked and cheated the system. But its out there in the open now and as long as CCP investigate every alt corp and trace it back to every owner then I agree with their bans and the way they are handling it. However if they are just punishing those who have not been too bright about it - well thats not particularly fair. Punishing the stupid should only be done if the devious also get punished too. All in all I think this coming to light will have a positive effect on eve. The market will stabilise and T2 prices will revert to being somewhere close to where they belong. Easy isk will be harder and greed should fragment some of the larger powerblocs. Pirate loot will now mean more and the reliance on Lvl 4 missions will hopefully dissipate as manufacturing takes hold as a viable carreer again. All those that are moaning - grow up, build a bridge and get over it! Its a game ... this does not stop you logging on to have fun. If it does then maybe you need to partake in some RL. On a plus - well done CCP for not brushing this under the carpet. Just do it right this time. Oros Anti-Pirate
SemiCharmed Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:40:00 - [1575] Yeah yeah this is all fine and dandy but why don't you take macro miners this seriously? -------------------------------------------- Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires.
Inmate 854	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:47:00 - [1576] Edited by: Inmate 854 on 12/12/2008 14:47:36 Originally by: Atharax Hello Inmate (and you're one alt also but I wont flame you for that) I made a suggestion, I might have been wrong on the solution. But I never suggested that moon materials should be offerend by NPC corps, neither that they be purchased. Instead that the model from the early years of the game be used, that involved standard minerals from asteroids, tech 1 ships and modules, and various tradegoods. Anyhow, fact remains, that we need stability here. It would be best for all involved. Sorry, I misunderstood your suggestion. But IMO the only thing we need to stabilize this is alchemy. It might actually worth doing now. Stability = boring. I like my RL finances to be stable. Internet spacehships...I could care less about stability. NPC trading and the tech 1 production stuff is still here. Or did it used to be different? My main only goes back to Revelations.
Mari deMedici	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:47:00 - [1577] Next week T2 mods are costing 10x more than now! I love it. Invention will be profitable again and named T1 will be FOTM again!
Daoi Sith	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:57:00 - [1578] Originally by: Smith Whats the point of naming and shaming if the players have been banned...it not like they are going to be involved in this game anymore? haha dont be obtuse. they were prob alts and posting the names and corps will open the floodgates to who the real perpetrators were/are. obvious POS exploiter is obvious
Ratchman	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:00:00 - [1579] Firstly, CCP do have a good defence. The economy is very complex in EVE, and things like these could easily exist without ever being noticed. Look at how many frauds and scams exist in the real world. Enron were bluffing everyone to the tune of billions for years, and I heard today that another hedge fund manager has been defrauding investors of $50 billion, and he was operating what seems to me like a basic pyramid scheme (but with better maths), paying off investors with the money from new investors. The real world economy is extremely fragile, far more than any of us would like to admit, and an awful lot is taken on trust and confidence. Why should EVE be any different? The other thing in their defence is logic. All those people involved were almost certainly using their fraudulently earned ISK to buy timecards, which deny CCP actual physical money. So if they find out people have been avoiding paying them (or denying them by the action of their fraud), they are going to take very swift action. If the amount turns out to be significant, maybe they would even consider legal action (although that could be a legal minefield, being a new area with little precedent). I can't think of a stronger motivation for a company to take action. Their existence as an organsisation is built on what they earn, so they will pay very close attention to it. As for the impact the scandal will have, it will probably have some, but nowhere near as much as some people are claiming. The market will absorb a lot of the damage. What will push prices up is if people start panicking and start stockpiling T2 sips and modules, reducing availability and increasing demand. I am interested in seeing if any gaps appear in the political landscape of EVE as a result of these players being removed. If they are all in one corp, or a smattering of corps, it could leave a hole in 0.0 territory, so one only has to keep an eye on any territory that suddenly becomes available, or where there is a sudden flare up of activity where people rush to claim it. However, if they are spread across a lot of corps, we may not even notice their absence.
SemiCharmed Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:02:00 - [1580] Originally by: Daoi Sith Originally by: Smith Whats the point of naming and shaming if the players have been banned...it not like they are going to be involved in this game anymore? haha dont be obtuse. they were prob alts and posting the names and corps will open the floodgates to who the real perpetrators were/are. obvious POS exploiter is obvious I think there names should be told. We have a right to know who's "cheating" and cheats should be punished even on there main accounts inert evil face here Plus we know to keep an eye out for them, they have done it once as we know... and they will do it again... once a cheat, always a cheat. -------------------------------------------- Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires.

Ironnight Caldari x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:09:00 - [1581] I dont know, Im starting to feel like I would be better off investing my subscription money in an Islandic bank, first the whole T20 thing, CCP knew and did nothing, until someone forced them to by leaking the info. Now we see them banning 70 accounts for something they knew about for awhile as well, pretty damn sad. They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap ' Doomsday
Tobias Lee Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:10:00 - [1582] Buying game time cards doesn't deny ccp any money someone pays for the card to gain isk, probly someone trying to buy ships to keep up with the scammers.
Cheeba Don Ihatalo Navy Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:12:00 - [1583] While the mistake should have been spotted etc etc, I do believe people should lay off CCP. Players have stupidly been suggesting CCP waste money hiring frigging accountant-types to check corp/alliance ledgers for signs of exploit abuse. The US goverment employs tens of thousands of people to do this and still this happens: 11th Dec 08 $50 bill ponzi scheme exploits and cheaters will always slip through. there's one born every minute.
Sharon Valerrii	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:12:00 - [1584] Ok, so it's been fixed, right? What was the exploit? How exactly were they using POS mechanics to gain an unfair advantage. Oh wait, how many times have we asked that question since cyno jammers & jump bridges came out? seriously tho?
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:13:00 - [1585] Originally by: Mari deMedici Invention will be profitable again and named T1 will be FOTM again! It is just that the price difference between tech 2 items made from invention bpcs and BPOs will increase. Also , with increased prices the demand will go down. . you'll never jump alone
Jonybang	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:18:00 - [1586] I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier.
Orange Faeces Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:25:00 - [1587] Originally by: Jonybang I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier. In the first half of your paragraph you talk about greed. In the second part of your paragraph you talk about ignorance of logic. See, its not reasonable to believe that moon minerals are not consumed in the production of the reaction outputs. So, greed is okay. What these players did went far beyond that into willful exploitation of an obvious programming error. Pretty simple. In other news, THE INTERNET. still wants to know all about who got the bannage. oF --- The Other Orange
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:25:00 - [1588] Originally by: Jonybang I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier. Oi look! It's a troll! Didn't see that one coming. -------- Ideas for: Mining
dmxandrei R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:26:00 - [1589] Originally by: Jonybang I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier. of course it seems fair ... if its an exploit you get banned .... the worse thing is that its been arround for ages and who knows how much iskies theese guys produced and to what use the isk whas put to
Lord Bleu The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:26:00 - [1590] I see people saying 'it's just a game' and though I personally don't invest a gargantuous amount of time in the game, I know people who do. For these people, eve is more than a game, much more so enough of the 'it's only a game' comments. Remove the fact that it's a game and what it boils down to is invested time. We only live once, so any time invested in anything is important. Many people take eve seriously, and thank god they do because it wouldn't be as interesting without these people out there making the news. They fight hard, work hard and all under the assumption that for the other man to win, he's got to fight and work just as hard. In this case, you have people who have been working hard, very hard and fighting battles against others who've been cheating and exploiting to such an extent that they've been able to buy all the uber kit and replenish their losses without any work at all. At least respect the fact though you may personally not have been shafted badly by this, many many have. I'm not blaming CCP, I'm blaming the idiots who pulled it off. ------- I came, I saw, I drank all the beer!

MMXMMX Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:27:00 - [1591] Just kidding mode : "By 2008, the market has become completely EXPLOIT-driven, and that's where I came in," says Gu=mundsson during an Edinburgh International Festival session. "The whole economic structure has become so complex, the data so vast, that a specialist was needed." Quote from this Linkage Just kidding mode :
Skar Rynn	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:27:00 - [1592] I agree, those of us that have played this game, and for that matter LIVED it, for these past years deserves answers. The question of HOW THE F$%@ do they have that much STUFF is answered apparently but not how CCP is gunna fix that or who we in honor have fought in the past and lost to unfair advantages, I am not complaining just saying :P First off. THAT STUFF IS HARD TO GET for us average players not in mega alliances, maybe now CCP will realize this. Secondly. Give us someone to point the finger at, if it has been 4 years and it has been exploited that long than a severe imbalance of power was gained by certain large entities providing them with the space and assetts they now enjoy. Third and last, dunt take away my t2 stuff its mine :) if ya do I'll fly to iceland and take your cookies!!!!
Owin Forsyth	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:36:00 - [1593] Originally by: SemiCharmed Yeah yeah this is all fine and dandy but why don't you take macro miners this seriously? I guess weÆll have to wait for someone to go to one of those other sites that have forums and state that he was a Macro Miner with 10 accounts and he made 100 trillion ISK. And then proceed to tell how even corp mates reported him over and over and nothing was ever done except that the oneÆs reporting had their petitions closed with nothing more than a canned response. It seems that only scandals get any attention these days. So, make Macro Mining a scandal somehow and they'll finally pay attention.
Atharax	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:38:00 - [1594] Edited by: Atharax on 12/12/2008 15:42:56 Originally by: Inmate 854 Sorry, I misunderstood your suggestion. But IMO the only thing we need to stabilize this is alchemy. It might actually worth doing now. Stability = boring. I like my RL finances to be stable. Internet spacehships...I could care less about stability. NPC trading and the tech 1 production stuff is still here. Or did it used to be different? My main only goes back to Revelations. Hello again Yes it used to be quiet different, I didnt even intend to say it would be permanent, only for a transition time so that we players can have some faith in the game and go around with business as usual without having guys expliting the consequences of the exploit. This is a lot bigger than the one about the T2 BPO given for free, that was considered a major one back then. Yes also research used to be different, I had my research agents did all the silly quests for them. I still have piles of planetary vehicles and plutonium and super conductors stacked in certain stations. In the end I got nothing. But all that pales to this thing with the POS exploit, and the spinoff from that one, the past is entirely insignificant! Because the money from this exploit have financed entire alliances and so created the political map we see in the game today. Then there's been wild trading on things ranging from BPO's to moon materials days perhaps a week before the crackdown. So what the heck happened, was it a leak, just a loose mouth warbling to certain ears? There is no doubt that certain people knew. So as a consequence to that and to reestablish faith in the game, something must be done. If my suggestion isn't the best, I hope someone comes up with another idea and put it into the game preferably right now. The idea of once again having the NPC corporations as trade partners would at least give us breathing time to move on, and stability in the transition time. And as a side note, CCP have my full respect for taking action, it seem it was really late indeed, yet I am uncertain they have the guts to do what is needed here. Only some halfbaked measures and some handful players banned isn't enough. As we have seen in this thread, there are some who are out for blood. The suggestion of one Execution squad was one such. Lord Bleau said something important here: Quote: Remove the fact that it's a game and what it boils down to is invested time. We only live once, so any time invested in anything is important. Yes I have a silly amount of time invested here in Eve, I want to continue to play, for that to be possible the damages of this POS exploit need to be dealt with. While we are given the temporary stability, my suggestion or something better that someone else come up with, we can play on while CCP get to work in peace, check what corps and alliances were up to before the leak happened, to see what was happening and done before certain players got cold feet had started to cover their tracks. And after that we can have a rollback.
Orange Faeces Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:45:00 - [1595] Originally by: dmxandrei of course it seems fair ... if its an exploit you get banned .... the worse thing is that its been arround for ages and who knows how much iskies theese guys produced and to what use the isk whas put to This brings up the whole issue of isk laundering, no? If one of the offending chars sent 100B to one of their GTC-driven alts, CCP can track that easily. If on the otherhand one of the chars spent 100B on ships, put them up on market in some remote location for 1 isk, then had a GTC-driven alt buy them, insure them and suicide them, then CCP probably can't track that as easily. (as an example) So you can move money away from the offending char rather easily, putting items through the market system to proxy the transaction. There are many other ways that I can conceive of laundering isk in game (i.e. making it hard for ccp to track the isk movement). --- The Other Orange
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:47:00 - [1596] Greets to all. I hope that i dont get flamed for this one but here it goes. I am going to give my two ISK worth of observations here and add to the mess that has already insued over this whole situation. CCP,..I do agree with you for banning the players/ entities involved in this whole starbase thing,...BUT,..... If you knew abou tit for as many years as i have been seeing and reading her ein the forums,..then banning the players or the corporations involved is just wrong. I for one would clearly use any game mechanics that would give me an advantage over others,...ESPECIALLY if CCP knew that it exists, for at that point it migrates form an "EXPLOIT" to an "INTENTIONAL GAME FEATURE" Clearly you all knew that something was amiss, therefor banning the players or the entities involved was a big much. it seems to me that all was good untill someone complained that there wallets were getting fat over such said GAME FEATURE. Heres my suggestion to a solution, 1) Fix the problem 2) Any and all persons and or entities that were involved in said activities be made to give up there assets wether they be corporate or personal, (ie isk/ships/ POSes) and take 1/2 of there skill points 3) allow them to remain in the game as an example to others not to screw with game mechanics to gain cleaar advantage over others, wether the gain be monatary or otherwise. CCP,...you all allow game exploits to go on, and I for one have experienced it and have reported it and you all have not done anything about the problems that i experienced with said "BUGS". This problem existed,...for some time now,..and now your banning these people involved? Thats just wrong. If your going to do anything,...scroll up and read the first part here friends,.... But this is just al lmy opinion here,... Opinions are like feet,...we all got two,....Use them I just used one,...I still have one left! >R< Clatu Verada Nicto Fly safe and dont screw with game mechanics,.....it will get you banned.
Plundaar Gallente Golden Orb Technology inc	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:49:00 - [1597] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. Update by Customer Support: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. I'm quoting the original because I want to point out something. CSM and CCP are having a meeting this upcoming weekend. I suggest you make it eve accessable.
MMXMMX Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:50:00 - [1598] It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:51:00 - [1599] Originally by: MMXMMX It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol Sometimes the choice to die is the right choice
nekolove Eve University	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:52:00 - [1600] The only thing I can do is LOL in front of all the players' faces who, in good faith, have ever put real money into the game, and I say this looking myself at the mirror. I guess when I came to EvE I forgot that humans usually do not learn from their errors from the past.

Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:59:00 - [1601] Originally by: AnobizII Originally by: Finderup Soren This is EVE...... It didnt change for me overnight because "some1" has had more ISK then me... I still change my skills .... I still fly in my ships..... All this little sand box game teaches u is that it is a cruel harsh world out there.... Live with it, or go play something else! Soren I completly agree, it aint affecting me or my alliance. So you alliance live in a cutoff part of EVE? EVE is a game of competition, and if someone gained ground from exploits, it did affect you, like it or not, obvious or not !
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:01:00 - [1602] This is **ing great. If I could be arsed I'd read the full thread. As it is I'm just pleased they have yet again ed up in a big **ing way. wtfg, CCCP.
Ebon Rue New Found Power	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:01:00 - [1603] Whoot! Yay for common sense prevailing in the midst of chaos. For those wondering, it went like this. Player discovers exploit to create t2 mats out of thin air. Player shares exploit with a small group. This group proceeds to make billions of ISK as they flood the market with these t2 mats. CCP finds out, and perma bans those obviously implicit in the exploit. To be safe they wipe the assets of the involved corps. Player and group throws a tantrum, sets out to screw CCP. (Something made easy due to the handling of the T20 incident, trust is susceptible to sensationalist gossip.) CCP continues their thorough investigation while player base goes into a frenzy about an exploit that "OMG! CCP HAS KNOWN 4 FOUR years!!" An unproven fact that market numbers DO NOT support. Some players quit in anger, otherwise the world keeps turning until a journal is published on the matter. Keep your head on your shoulders folks, bust out the tinfoil hats. This isn't PvP, it's PvCCP.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:02:00 - [1604] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Astro Glyde AP - Reykjavik, Iceland December 12, 2008 - For Immediate Release CCP one of the worldÆs leading independent game developers, today fully disclosed details on its most recent scandal. One that could potentially have real-world implications of this most recent exploit which, some say, has been in effect for years. The producers of EVE Online, a player-driven persistent-world massively multiplayer online (MMO) game set in a science fiction space setting. And just as in real-life, it may require a financial bailout to counter its most recent catastrophe... [SNIP] Senior management at CCP held high level discussions in an attempt to resolve the vast and far reaching implications. "While most of the internal policies and decisions won't be publicly discussed, we are pleased to release this clip which clearly demonstrates our current course of action." said a senior game developer who asked to remain anonymous. Review Video Meh. We all know one of the C's in CCP stands for Catastrophy. It gives them and the things they do a whole lot of character IMO. Can someone point me to this "full disclosure"....Because I don't believe it to be true, unless I have access to this full disclosure myself.
Comrade Fox Birth Control Defects	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:03:00 - [1605] Originally by: MMXMMX It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol You're wrong. Just because some alliances decided to make for the easy money doesn't mean they all did. Though, I do believe that more than the 3 corps in 2 alliances were involved, and I know for a fact that accounts unaware of the exploiting were banned for being in the offending corps, weather they personally benefited from the exploit or not. Know what you know and speculate about the rest? I just hope the CSM popularity contest pays off in some respect, though i doubt it.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:03:00 - [1606] Edited by: Andrue on 12/12/2008 16:05:21 Originally by: Lord Bleu I see people saying 'it's just a game' and though I personally don't invest a gargantuous amount of time in the game, I know people who do. For these people, eve is more than a game, much more so enough of the 'it's only a game' comments. That's their fault for being stupid then. Quote: Remove the fact that it's a game and what it boils down to is invested time. We only live once, so any time invested in anything is important. Correct. But we subscribe to this game to have fun. No-one (except the terminally stupid) think they will get anything back from the game. It's not an investment vehicle. If you were having fun for the last <however long it has been going on> then you got your money's worth. If you weren't having fun prior to this going public then you were a fool for wasting your money it in the first place. This incident might have soured the game going forward - in that case cancel your sub. But it's silly to claim that it has somehow invalidated what happened before. Put another way:You still have memories of the good times in Eve. If you don't think there'll be any more then quit. But don't let a bunch of emoraging idiots taint your memories. They are your memories - hang on to them. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:09:00 - [1607] Hay,...i got a whole bunch of T-II stuff for sale,...Realy cheep too,..... hehehe Just kidding >R< Duck and cover time!
Hellrazer Sinner Among Saints	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:20:00 - [1608] Tell you what CCP.... Remove the fail QR and most of EvE will forgive you twice.
Airatt	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:25:00 - [1609] I am part of a small corp. We are only 8 months into Eve. This problem has many roots. Any action will have a major impact. With the market as a major part. This means the gap on every aspect of the game will widen even more for the new players and new corps. Hence the penalty against the parties involved will impact all of us. Luv the game.. But there is no future for the game if all our honest efforts are proven worthless, because of exploits. CCP send in an alien invasion to 0.0. Keep the alliances busy defending themselves in 0.0. That way the rest of us can catchup.. The capital spent defending will punish all and impact the game.. We must look for solutions, not blame.. If we are to have faith in our game and CCP.
MMXMMX Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:26:00 - [1610] Originally by: Comrade Fox Originally by: MMXMMX It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol You're wrong. Just because some alliances decided to make for the easy money doesn't mean they all did. Though, I do believe that more than the 3 corps in 2 alliances were involved, and I know for a fact that accounts unaware of the exploiting were banned for being in the offending corps, weather they personally benefited from the exploit or not. Know what you know and speculate about the rest? I just hope the CSM popularity contest pays off in some respect, though i doubt it. I dit NOT say the ALL did !!!!! Lots off alliance dit realy Die and maiby the dit not ADAPT And maiby in the end that was a good choice after all .

Sundogg	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:26:00 - [1611] Just a sec all, I think some of us have missed the point in Wranglers post: "We discovered seven corporations with *multiple Starbases* set up *for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question.* All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions." What he is saying is this was the immediate response, not necessarily the final chapter or summary of their conclusions. These corporations were those that were setup EXPLICITLY to utilize the exploit in question. Given just the sheer amount of work it would take to form those corporations and setup POS's with over 70 accnts between them would suggest to me the issue is certainly more than a couple days old, and I think Wrangler thinly suggested that with his opening line of "a day that shall forever live on in infamy" I'm not a CCP Fanboy but I can imagine that if the exploit is as "far reaching" as CCP Wrangler suggested it is going to take some serious man hours to pull the data and mine it for answers, I think we should give them that time. Put into perspective that ONLY 3 of the corporations INITIALLY found were part of 2 separate alliances. That kind of exploit information would take time to travel to the other 4 corporations that were not part of the alliances in question. So I am sure if I can figure that out so can CCP. And I would suspect the Ban Bat has not been put away in the closet yet. Put the pitchforks and kindling wood down, and lets just see what unfolds over the next few weeks. Dogg
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:29:00 - [1612] and I put my money on.... 1. BoB 2. Goonswarm Way to go guys, game ruined! :(
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:36:00 - [1613] oh so that evoke says goodbye with a smile? he should be burned alive. those 70 should have their balls cut off, any ccp-staff involved should be lynched, and the rest should be buried alive. ccp is just planning in which country to do this - anything else would be plain weak. resetting the server aint fair - thats treating the cheaters as bad as everyone else. tracing assets and removing them will be too complicated for the obviously incompetent staff. so whats the option? saying that your sorry? what kind of ****ing reimbursement would that be... all involved have been more or less stealing money from hundreds of thousand other players, whats the usual punishment for such where you live?
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:37:00 - [1614] Originally by: Sundogg Just a sec all, I think some of us have missed the point in Wranglers post: ..."a day that shall forever live on in infamy" ... I think you missed his point as well. December 7, 1941 was the "day that shall live in infamy", The attack on Pearl Harbor. Seriously, this is a dark day in EVE's history. Let's all just take it slowly and with calm. This will all get sorted out. http://www.eve-druid.com
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:38:00 - [1615] I just rifted a bunch of people through a keep gate, aoe'd them all down, then dragged the lord to the first floor. Should I expect a ban some time in the next 24 hours?
Ertai Vodalion Gallente LifeLine Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:39:00 - [1616] Quote: all involved have been more or less stealing money from hundreds of thousand other players, whats the usual punishment for such where you live? we usually call them government - and there is no punishment for them - they rule ;)
Leakim jones Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:42:00 - [1617] In all honesty all we have to suggest that it has been 4 years is someone ****ed off that CCP shook the ban stick in their direction. In all honesty it probably came in when the Alchemy was introduced to the game. I fully support CCP in everything that they have done in the process of this investigation, i feel that once the investigation has run its course there should be a naming and shaming since it is better that CCP tell people who was involved rather than the stupid rumour mill that has been blaming random alliances for the last couple of days (Mostly everyone blaming BOB or RAWR). At the end of the day CCP haven't finished the investigation and another statement will come in due course. Calling for heads to roll and random accusations between people isn't going to help the matter at all. My 0.2 isk
Laari Neros	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:42:00 - [1618] OH MY **** YOU FAIL
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:44:00 - [1619] Originally by: Ertai Vodalion Quote: all involved have been more or less stealing money from hundreds of thousand other players, whats the usual punishment for such where you live? we usually call them government - and there is no punishment for them - they rule ;) ya i suppose that goes for ccp, but sometimes you atleast punish some scapegoats (would be players in this case i presume, since ccp has their heads up their arse) - put them in jail, or atleast forced labour
Bobbechk The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:48:00 - [1620] ...

MMXMMX Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:49:00 - [1621] Edited by: MMXMMX on 12/12/2008 16:50:47 It would not surprise me if the isk sellers have something to do with this to . Its a great way to get fast isk and sel it . I could be wrong :)
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:01:00 - [1622] Edited by: Blackmarketbaby on 12/12/2008 17:02:11 Originally by: MMXMMX Edited by: MMXMMX on 12/12/2008 16:50:47 It would not surprise me if the isk sellers have something to do with this to . Its a great way to get fast isk and sel it . I could be wrong :) you could be very correct - and it could mean alot of real money, thats why this ain't about just using a bug in the game - it could be about ccp-staff and players alike generating real money (our money) for themselfs and letting the world of eve be totally unfair. only banning acounts is like letting real-life robbers keep their loot after just taking their guns away, they should be in prison.
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:09:00 - [1623] How the devs will fix the items that were produced by the exploit; delete * from assets; delete * from market; drop table bpos
Carter VanSandt Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:10:00 - [1624] I would just like to know the extent of actual damage. How much of the current market is inflated with non-existant supplies, and what impact this has upon T2 ship production. I would also like to know who was involved, the list of the people banned and the names of corporations / alliances for accountability. Simply coming out with a notice saying "Ok, everything's fixed now, carry on" won't cut it. The potential economic damage is too far reaching. _______________________________________________ I SURVIVED FERROGATE 2008!
Avaleric Amarr SC Special Circumstances	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:13:00 - [1625] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 07:31:24 Originally by: Avaleric I have read all your posts here; mostly you being abusive towards those of different opinion, and quite unprovoked. Tells us all about your mindset and capabilities... You are entitled to have your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. But as soon as you decide to share it in a forum, be prepared to have it repudiated. If you can't bear having your flawed arguments dissected and ridicularized for their inconsistencies, then just abstain yourself from writing. Now if you have anything to say about the subject at hand, please share your priceless ideas. I am quite sure they will be amusing. "One should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." - Vinnie Jones, Snatch - Ignorance is bliss...
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:14:00 - [1626] Originally by: Owin Forsyth Originally by: SemiCharmed Yeah yeah this is all fine and dandy but why don't you take macro miners this seriously? I guess weÆll have to wait for someone to go to one of those other sites that have forums and state that he was a Macro Miner with 10 accounts and he made 100 trillion ISK. And then proceed to tell how even corp mates reported him over and over and nothing was ever done except that the oneÆs reporting had their petitions closed with nothing more than a canned response. It seems that only scandals get any attention these days. So, make Macro Mining a scandal somehow and they'll finally pay attention. A macro would make no where near this amount of isk, not even 1/100th of the value - and each macro pays for their account. As they are paying subscribers and don't make a massive impact on the economy (ie, nowhere near this scale) it is more cost effective and profitable to let them continue. If you were to ban all macros (impossible, but lets say there was a switch and they could be turned off) in addition to this loophole being closed the entire marketplace and production of EVE would grind to a halt. No moon exploit + No macros = Nothing on the market It's simply not cost effective, efficient, profitable or in anyone's interest to shut down all the macros.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:14:00 - [1627] Originally by: Andrue That's their fault for being stupid then. Unlike you who spend the same time in a forum, right? I have to point that you are the stupidest of the lot, sorry. Quote: If you were having fun for the last <however long it has been going on> then you got your money's worth. If you weren't having fun prior to this going public then you were a fool for wasting your money it in the first place. This incident might have soured the game going forward - in that case cancel your sub. But it's silly to claim that it has somehow invalidated what happened before. Put another way:You still have memories of the good times in Eve. If you don't think there'll be any more then quit. But don't let a bunch of emoraging idiots taint your memories. They are your memories - hang on to them. Emoraging idiots like those who make posts calling people "emogaring idiots"? There is an option to quitting you know. You can make CCP life's hell untill they fix waht needs to be fixed or are out of business. And to me this is far more fullfilling than quitting. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Karc Thule	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:15:00 - [1628] Consider you are leading a large corp and you discover or hear about an exploit. At first you are doubtful, then excited, then wary. An exploit with this much power would allow a corp to carve out space ungoverned. On one hand, you weigh an egregious crime that would lose you everything if discovered. On the other, you feel the pressure of rival corps bearing down on you. Will they use this exploit? You wonder how long you could hold against such overwhelming odds... Where does your greatest risk lie? Can you afford to fall behind your equals knowing the price for righteousness is as heavy as the price for sin? In the past couple of days I have often wondered how I would decide. Is it right for CCP to punish those who took advantage? Is it just to convict a criminal when they did nothing to police his neighbors? If they build an environment where fitness is a product of strength and greed and through neglect allow such a commanding flaw to go unnoticed, perhaps the crime is in the breeding. Survival is not an exploit. In truth, I can't say I have an answer to the conflicting responsibilities here. Who is more culpable, the man who eats the fruit or the god who builds no fences? Let the question be theoretical. You can use the exploit that would save your corp or you can choose law and watch other powers rise around you. It would be an interesting vote.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:16:00 - [1629] Originally by: Avaleric "One should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." - Vinnie Jones, Snatch Those who need to quote others are without ideas themselves. I have to admit your quote fits you well, though. Self-knowledge is enlightening. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:24:00 - [1630] The mass banning was a knee jerk reaction and badly implemented. Lets just look; This has been going on for 4 years, another 4 weeks won't make much of a difference. In those 4 weeks, CCP could have looked at the economy, the impact, the effect of closing this and analyzed the consequences. We may now well be faced with a market and production collapse. As someone mentioned previously in RL governments have nationalised banks and other financial institutions - this might need to be a possibility here. If the sudden flow of these resources is withdrawn it will cause chaos. There needs to be a regulated and steady decrease until the player base is able to fill the void the mass ban has created.

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:25:00 - [1631] Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity How the devs will fix the items that were produced by the exploit; delete * from assets; delete * from market; drop table bpos get list of most active cheating/exploiting accounts in eve: SELECT Ac.Name FROM Accounts Ac INNER JOIN Characters Ch ON Ch.AccountID = Ac.ID INNER JOIN CharactersXCorporations XC ON XC.CharacterID = Ch.ID INNER JOIN CorporationsXAlliances XA ON XA.CorporationID = XC.CorporationID INNER JOIN Alliances Al ON Al.ID = XA.AllianceID WHERE ( Al.Ticker = 'BOB' )
szaiboT	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:32:00 - [1632] Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity The mass banning was a knee jerk reaction and badly implemented. Lets just look; This has been going on for 4 years, another 4 weeks won't make much of a difference. In those 4 weeks, CCP could have looked at the economy, the impact, the effect of closing this and analyzed the consequences. We may now well be faced with a market and production collapse. As someone mentioned previously in RL governments have nationalised banks and other financial institutions - this might need to be a possibility here. If the sudden flow of these resources is withdrawn it will cause chaos. There needs to be a regulated and steady decrease until the player base is able to fill the void the mass ban has created. Maybe even put some flavor into it. Instead of saying it was exploit, put a story there was an alien attack as those corporations where doing reasearch and explorations that angered them. Can you imagine the number of post and speculations that would be then ? I guess only 1/10 or less would be about the economy
Mistress Kali	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:32:00 - [1633] I love this deus ex machina tinkering - stops the game from being predictable
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:33:00 - [1634] Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity We may now well be faced with a market and production collapse. As someone mentioned previously in RL governments have nationalised banks and other financial institutions - this might need to be a possibility here. And so what if T2 items go up in price? That's not worthy of attention from CCP's side as T2 items are NOT a necessity for people to live (or fight)! The RL comparison is utterly ridiculous.... This is at most a major hiccup in EVE history... Nothing more.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:37:00 - [1635] Heres an idea: This meeting coming up. Broadcast it in real-time through an Eve channel or make an un-abridged recording of the meeting. Hows that for transparency? Shame CCP would never do that There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:37:00 - [1636] I heard a rumour that we are going to rollback to 4 years ago. Confirmation?
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:38:00 - [1637] You all reolize that scence these people have been banned, or there accounts have been banned,...they will just start another account/toon,...and its game on just as if nothing happened. CCP is going to have to be real careful here. If they bann them,...there has got to be some way to see if these people STAY BANNED, MAC number addressing maybe? An IP is far too easy to change. >R<
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:42:00 - [1638] Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar I heard a rumour that we are going to rollback to 4 years ago. Confirmation? Confirming this. I heard that from reliable source. Alas those sources demanded anonymity (NDA stuff) so I can't tell you who it is. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:42:00 - [1639] Here's the external link by someone involved if you care to read: http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 It does appear this has been going on for 4 years. CCP must have known about it, how could they not know about it? The banned player states he's not paid for EVE in 4 years!!! So while every other pleb has had to pay using real money, or work their asses off for isk to cover a GTC these guys just sat back and bathed in money. I wonder if CCP would like to refund me, and every other player for my monthly subscriptions? This has been allowed to continue because EVE wouldn't exist, wouldn't function without it properly. It also gave all us plebs something to look up to, to work towards. Quite frankly this sucks on a massive and epic scale, and it's an utter failure from CCP. Depending on their responses to this, I may or may not continue with my subscriptions on the basis I've been robbed month in, month out. Your explanations better be good CCP, or you're going to lose a lot of players. This is nothing short of theft, and fraud. Seeing as ISK can be traded for GTC's, and GTC's can be paid for with cash it'll be interesting to see the real world consequences of this.
SemiCharmed Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:43:00 - [1640] Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity Originally by: Owin Forsyth Originally by: SemiCharmed Yeah yeah this is all fine and dandy but why don't you take macro miners this seriously? I guess weÆll have to wait for someone to go to one of those other sites that have forums and state that he was a Macro Miner with 10 accounts and he made 100 trillion ISK. And then proceed to tell how even corp mates reported him over and over and nothing was ever done except that the oneÆs reporting had their petitions closed with nothing more than a canned response. It seems that only scandals get any attention these days. So, make Macro Mining a scandal somehow and they'll finally pay attention. A macro would make no where near this amount of isk, not even 1/100th of the value - and each macro pays for their account. As they are paying subscribers and don't make a massive impact on the economy (ie, nowhere near this scale) it is more cost effective and profitable to let them continue. If you were to ban all macros (impossible, but lets say there was a switch and they could be turned off) in addition to this loophole being closed the entire marketplace and production of EVE would grind to a halt. No moon exploit + No macros = Nothing on the market It's simply not cost effective, efficient, profitable or in anyone's interest to shut down all the macros. And eve would be a hell of alot more interesting and i would sure as hell take more pride in every kill i get knowing it will make a huge impact on the person that just lost his ship with very little but expencive gear on the market... These days "i just lost my titan... Ohh welll" buys 2 more new ones and fits them out - i would be glad to say you dont see this everyday, but infact... you do... -------------------------------------------- Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires.

TehPhil Caldari Community for Justice Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:43:00 - [1641] Originally by: PJRid**** CCP is going to have to be real careful here. If they bann them,...there has got to be some way to see if these people STAY BANNED, MAC number addressing maybe? An IP is far too easy to change. >R< Ah right changing their Network cards will be an incredible task for them -- Everybody Panic!
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:44:00 - [1642] Originally by: PJRid**** You all reolize that scence these people have been banned, or there accounts have been banned,...they will just start another account/toon,...and its game on just as if nothing happened. CCP is going to have to be real careful here. If they bann them,...there has got to be some way to see if these people STAY BANNED, MAC number addressing maybe? An IP is far too easy to change. >R< You can spoof a mac easily enough, even some routers have the option to do so. Nothing can really be done about it, if they want to come back then they will. The only thing that can be done now is to fix the bug and somehow calm the playerbase
Garok Nor Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:46:00 - [1643] Rabble Rabble Rabble... we should all quit and join that other Space Empire Building MMO.... Oh wait....... ------------------------------------------------- Items posted by me are in no way a reflection of the policies and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance. {though they maybe really ought to be}
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:48:00 - [1644] Originally by: TehPhil Originally by: PJRid**** CCP is going to have to be real careful here. If they bann them,...there has got to be some way to see if these people STAY BANNED, MAC number addressing maybe? An IP is far too easy to change. >R< Ah right changing their Network cards will be an incredible task for them Dont even need to do that, modifying the MAC isn't hard. The only way CCP can ensure banning someone is to throttle everything coming from his ISP and that obvious isn't a good idea There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:48:00 - [1645] Originally by: Garok Nor Rabble Rabble Rabble... we should all quit and join that other Space Empire Building MMO.... Oh wait....... What, World of Warcraft? :O
Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:48:00 - [1646] Originally by: RedSplat Originally by: TehPhil Originally by: PJRid**** CCP is going to have to be real careful here. If they bann them,...there has got to be some way to see if these people STAY BANNED, MAC number addressing maybe? An IP is far too easy to change. >R< Ah right changing their Network cards will be an incredible task for them Dont even need to do that, modifying the MAC isn't hard. The only way CCP can ensure banning someone is to throttle everything coming from his ISP and that obvious isn't a good idea Right, because people can't change ISP.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:49:00 - [1647] Originally by: Garok Nor Rabble Rabble Rabble... we should all quit and join that other Space Empire Building MMO.... Oh wait....... Jumpgate Evolution? Super VGA Planets (they just released a new version) There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 17:49:00 - [1648] Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Originally by: RedSplat Originally by: TehPhil Originally by: PJRid** CCP is going to have to be real careful here. If they bann them,...there has got to be some way to see if these people STAY BANNED, MAC number addressing maybe? An IP is far too easy to change. >R< Ah right changing their Network cards will be an incredible task for them Dont even need to do that, modifying the MAC isn't hard. The only way CCP can ensure banning someone is to throttle everything coming from his ISP and that obvious isn't a good idea** Right, because people can't change ISP. There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Kaastosti	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:00:00 - [1649] I'm currently working to get my own POS up and running... but don't want to do anything that's going to get me banned. What was it they exploited? Then at least I know whether or not I'm about to enter the danger zone ;)
FirstWolf Gallente Telis Fleet Yard	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:07:00 - [1650] CCP... Thanks for stopping the exploit and crushing those that where cheating. You do good work. Now for the ranting children that have nothing but hate here are a few words for you. When has the ranting at CCP ever solved anything. really?!? To what end? Really what wrong has been done to you that you need to come and complain to CCP that they fixed an exploit!! These people around the world are working hard so you can play a game. A GAME not build you a house or feed your family. And it is 15 bucks a month. WOW has more issues and it is 15 bucks + a fracking 40 buck expansion every year or so. CCP owes you nothing, no explanations no lists of who, NOTHING! When did CCP rip you off? Never!! They strive to do the best they can for all of us. Get over it! The involved parties where stomped on by CCP. I love the game and I donÆt care who made isk or what they did with it. All I care is that it is fixed and we move on. There is plenty of pew pew left and now people and corps without unlimited funds to crush >:) Thank you CCP for all of your work to make such a wonderful game that so many enjoy everyday! And Thanks to all the players that make the game and the forums fun with good help and intelligent discussion. Steve

The Jackhammer Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:11:00 - [1651] WELL 55 pages in ... Time for me to put in my 2 cents. I've played and payed for the my subscription for ALMOST 5 years straight. Over that time I've witnessed ALOT of changes in the game. Some for the worst MOST for the better. I ENJOY my hobby of playing this particular MMORPG. I've managed to play by the rules AND thoroughly enjoyed the game. BUT this exploit REALLY FRUSTRATES me. To say that it was a 'select few involved' is ludicrous. YOU KNOW EVERYONE associated with the corp/alliance benefited (NO MATTER HOW LITTLE) and Had some IDEA something was up. ==================== To the specific corp/alliances who are in violation: F uck YOUR apology ... and THANKS for ruining my faith in the GAME and my hobby. WHO Likes to play a game when they are constantly put at a disadvantage from a GROUP of players ... Allegedly for the LAST 4 years !?! How many battles have I BARELY lost cuz some A$$hole made T2 items within the buying range of EVERYONE. How many people who produce T2 items aren't as well off isk wise as they should be because some A$$hole flooded the market with cheap goods. How many times have I killed a T2 fitted ship ONLY to cash the mods in and get shyte for ISK. HOW much Real-Life money did these people make off the exploit ... think about it .. BUY up GTCs and sell them for Real-Life money for less than the NORMAL price to their buddies ... ==================== ANWAY, I can go on and on ... I DEMAND answers ... Punish them how you see fit BUT i want: 1. Names involved. 2. Corporations / Alliances involved. 3. The extent of the damage to the game. 4. What actions will be taken to ENSURE a LEVEL playing field for ALL subscribers. ==================== The way CCP handles this one WILL dictate if I continue to subscribe to their product -OR- make other arrangements to depart the game and move on to another MMORGP that can appease me CUSTOMER SERVICE wise. PS: No you can't haz my stuff Thank-You, The Jackhammer Banners and Signatures by: Kalen Vox
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:14:00 - [1652] Originally by: AkRoYeR and I put my money on.... 1. BoB 2. Goonswarm Way to go guys, game ruined! :( I am a BoB director in a BoB industrial corp. A Corp who's primary purpose over the last 4 years has been POS/moon mining work. On many occations, I have personally done POS work (although I mostly build with the finished products...) Yet I am strangely unbanned, and the entire corp is chugging along nicely. We look forward to up coming market changes. ......damn, that was no fun...... ........ok, here is something for the emo crowd: HOW YOU SUCKERS LIKE PAYING MY ACCOUNT OVER THE LAST 4 YEARS!!!11111!!!! lol1111 Feel better? Play nice while you butcher each other.
Salinity Now	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:17:00 - [1653] Edited by: Salinity Now on 12/12/2008 18:19:47 First of all this isnt an attack on CCP. These are observations and questions. I dont think its a given that this exploit affects the game in a negative way overall that much even if the corps involved were full of real players. If the corps that had this advantage were NPC corps would it ruin EVE? However, I look at this situation and ask myself, Why ? If CCP knew about this and about macro miners, why would they let this go on? So with that in mind, imagine this. Because of this bug, an individual can make 600 billion isks real quick and easy within this game. With an exchange rate of 600 million isks to one two month credit they can use these points to purchase 1000 cards. For each of these cards CCP recieves a major portion of 35 dollars. Now the person who purchased these 1000 cards is going to go sell the cards. CCP got their money allready. I wish that i could hire sales people that cheap in the real world. It isnt about giving BOB or the Goons an advantage. This is about CCP using the isks for real money process to recruit a very cheap force of marketers who will invest a lot of energy into selling time cards This also applies to Macro Miners. As far as game play, if it was managed well and it seems to have been then the CORPS that were involved didnt act any different than any other NPC. All they have lost is our respect. All CCP needs to do (And they will.) is contiue to manage the economy to make sure the repercussions of this do not destroy the fun factor and people will continue to play. The important part for Eve's survival is that CCP will contiue to profit. However, they will need to replace the real world revenue when they loose this highly motivated very cheap sales force.
petrimax	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:19:00 - [1654] Al last the worlwide financial crisis has reached EVE ... with the corresponding criminals also.
Kei Gravatid	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:20:00 - [1655] Originally by: Carter VanSandt I would just like to know the extent of actual damage. How much of the current market is inflated with non-existant supplies, and what impact this has upon T2 ship production. I would also like to know who was involved, the list of the people banned and the names of corporations / alliances for accountability. Simply coming out with a notice saying "Ok, everything's fixed now, carry on" won't cut it. The potential economic damage is too far reaching. We'll never know, I doubt they know, but even worse I doubt they care. Economics is the stepchild of EVE; I have seen nothing about an investigation into this.
Kei Gravatid	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:22:00 - [1656] Originally by: Karc Thule Consider you are leading a large corp and you discover or hear about an exploit. At first you are doubtful, then excited, then wary. An exploit with this much power would allow a corp to carve out space ungoverned. On one hand, you weigh an egregious crime that would lose you everything if discovered. On the other, you feel the pressure of rival corps bearing down on you. Will they use this exploit? You wonder how long you could hold against such overwhelming odds... Where does your greatest risk lie? Can you afford to fall behind your equals knowing the price for righteousness is as heavy as the price for sin? In the past couple of days I have often wondered how I would decide. Is it right for CCP to punish those who took advantage? Is it just to convict a criminal when they did nothing to police his neighbors? If they build an environment where fitness is a product of strength and greed and through neglect allow such a commanding flaw to go unnoticed, perhaps the crime is in the breeding. Survival is not an exploit. In truth, I can't say I have an answer to the conflicting responsibilities here. Who is more culpable, the man who eats the fruit or the god who builds no fences? Let the question be theoretical. You can use the exploit that would save your corp or you can choose law and watch other powers rise around you. It would be an interesting vote. This is not a morality play. CCP allowed a distortion in the game mechanics and for reasons unknown didn't fix it. Another post points to the fast that this exploit was pointed out to them in 2005.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:23:00 - [1657] Originally by: Sergeant Spot Originally by: AkRoYeR and I put my money on.... 1. BoB 2. Goonswarm Way to go guys, game ruined! :( I am a BoB director in a BoB industrial corp. A Corp who's primary purpose over the last 4 years has been POS/moon mining work. On many occations, I have personally done POS work (although I mostly build with the finished products...) Yet I am strangely unbanned, and the entire corp is chugging along nicely. We look forward to up coming market changes. There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:26:00 - [1658] OK, so, I read through many pages of this post, and stopped when the sniping just got childish. So for my own edification, what exactly happened here? As I understand it, a group of folks found an exploit and have been using it for some years to make isk out of nothingness, which in turn appears to have affected the T2/bpo economics of Eve. And no, I really couldn't care less about any CCP-involved soap opera non-sense... My question is this: what impact did these cheaters have on the average EVE player, and not the high-rolling, ivory tower TITAN-weilding players and builders? Industrial ships is the farthest I've gone to date, so Titans, carriers, and massive T2 fits have zero impact on my game play. Will this have an impact on average ore prices for us normal players? Thanks for honest, non-drama related input. :) ------------------------------------------- 1) Dell XPS M1710 (3Gig, nVidia GeForce Go 7900 GS, Vista Business SP1, display res 1920x1200, DX 10) 2) AMD/64 (3200+) on Asus AN8SLI32 w/3Gig, nVidia Ge
Kei Gravatid	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:28:00 - [1659] Originally by: Ebon Rue Whoot! Yay for common sense prevailing in the midst of chaos. For those wondering, it went like this. "OMG! CCP HAS KNOWN 4 FOUR years!!" An unproven fact that market numbers DO NOT support. Some players quit in anger, otherwise the world keeps turning until a journal is published on the matter. Keep your head on your shoulders folks, bust out the tinfoil hats. This isn't PvP, it's PvCCP. This isk is fungible. Market numbers would tell you nothing. A mass economic analysis would tell you some things, but isk also buys influence.... in many ways.
Ninjatta	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:28:00 - [1660] Edited by: Ninjatta on 12/12/2008 18:29:48 I really hope CCP are reading this thread.It seems to me this exploit has really put them in a dangerous spot. They either come clean on this and give full disclosure and lets face it they don't exactly have a good track record in that department. Or they face the very real chance of lost current subscriptions and certainly future ones once word of mouth spreads that Eve is run by a company that can't be trusted. I really don't think walking in stations is going to get you past that rep tbh

Daoi Sith	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:29:00 - [1661] you cant truly ban anyone. there is no technical solution that cannot be worked around very easily. the market for skilled toons should explode for a few weeks.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:30:00 - [1662] I can see how CCP would miss this and I want to see them deal with properly not use the CSM to fob us off. Carefull CCP or you will put a nail in that coffin as well. I've seen people almost burn out playing this game trying to make money off POS chains only to see tons of hard work fail due to strange pricing that no one could possibly make a profit on. If you cheat your scum, we all know EVE is a special game due to the work people put in. So all these off hand comments from people within suspect alliances belittling people who don't cheat serioulsy STFU you're on a loser. CCP holds the 0.0 population in high esteem as it illustrates the sandbox aspect. However, the 0.0 population constantly let down the population at large and CCP. You've pretty much got no in game respect at the moment. Which I know you don't care see below guess what niether do we I just assume everything that comes out your mouth now is *****s. We see posts all the time where alliance members tell the soloers its an mmorpg. Guess what works both ways every action affects everyone else. It's only a game but after a pub meet in London and the fanfest I've pretty much come to the conclusion if you're an ****** in game you are out of game. I've yet to be proven wrong. So give all the self righteous crap a rest. All the alliances are tainted if not now they have been in the past. I hope CCP kicks ass and restores faith in the game by going through the alliances with a hatchet. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:31:00 - [1663] Originally by: TehPhil Originally by: PJRid**** CCP is going to have to be real careful here. If they bann them,...there has got to be some way to see if these people STAY BANNED, MAC number addressing maybe? An IP is far too easy to change. >R< Ah right changing their Network cards will be an incredible task for them So true,.....so true,... one more thing tothink aobut and ill throw this out there. I was looking to see if this has affected the isk sellers,...ive seen on the net in a couple places where there has made mention to this whole scandle. AND im just wondering just how many snot nosed 13 year olds are gonna be have there wallet affected IRL. Not being to farm the ISK like they have been able to and sell it on the net like they have been doing all this time. CCP,...what really needs to happen,...is to police all activities concerning your game,....But you and I both know thats an impossability. Exploits like this is going to happen,...its not your fault,...its just that some people just cant be happy playing a great game like EVE,...they got to find some way to cheat,...spaz the game and make it bad for everyone. I for one think that CCP is doing everything they can in there power to remidy the situation. I would like to go back to one of the posts that i did earlier,....dont ban them,...make an example out of them,...I said eairler that if you ban them,...they will just find some way to get back on and its game on again,....instead,...leave them on and keep an eye on them,...make sure that they are not screwing up again. Ive seen people like this before and they find enjoyment in doing just these kind of things, and for the most part they can not be stopped,..they wil lalways find a way,...ALWAYS,... >>>KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE,...YOUR ENIMYS EVEN CLOSER<<< Clatu Verada Nicto >R< Fly safe and eat your vegatables,...EVEN YOUR BROCOLLI! >>Gawd,..i love brocolli<< With a little butter and salt on it! Cream cheese! OMG,...i just made myself hungry,..... later all,...Im heading to McDonalds! >R<
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:33:00 - [1664] Originally by: Borun Tal OK, so, I read through many pages of this post, and stopped when the sniping just got childish. So for my own edification, what exactly happened here? As I understand it, a group of folks found an exploit and have been using it for some years to make isk out of nothingness, which in turn appears to have affected the T2/bpo economics of Eve. And no, I really couldn't care less about any CCP-involved soap opera non-sense... My question is this: what impact did these cheaters have on the average EVE player, and not the high-rolling, ivory tower TITAN-weilding players and builders? Industrial ships is the farthest I've gone to date, so Titans, carriers, and massive T2 fits have zero impact on my game play. Will this have an impact on average ore prices for us normal players? Thanks for honest, non-drama related input. :) Some people made moonminerals out of tin air, which means that they could flood the market with it whenever they want, or better said they could controll it. ofcourse they bough with the minerals t2 blueprints long ago and start building caps supercapitals, gtc and several Alt char to store the minerals there http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945978 here you see one Alliance Evoke (former D2, G) being involved, but ofcourse they "don't knew anything". Nice to see they still can enjoy their t2 blueprints Supercapitals, free accounts and other expensive stuff
Kei Gravatid	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:34:00 - [1665] Originally by: Borun Tal My question is this: what impact did these cheaters have on the average EVE player, and not the high-rolling, ivory tower TITAN-weilding players and builders? Industrial ships is the farthest I've gone to date, so Titans, carriers, and massive T2 fits have zero impact on my game play. Will this have an impact on average ore prices for us normal players? Thanks for honest, non-drama related input. :) Perhaps; depends on how the situation was handled by CCP. They don't give details. ISK is fungible could have been converted into many forms of assets and those assets themselves are changeable to a large extent. It also depends on what economic games these people (are there others that are repositories of this ISK?) are/have played. As far as the immediate effect on ore prices, get out the crystal ball. People do lie low when the cops are around.
Karc Thule	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:40:00 - [1666] Edited by: Karc Thule on 12/12/2008 18:45:30 Kei Gravatid, you've struck one of the key points to the issue at hand. Who bears the responsibility? Is it right to punish the players if there was flagrant neglect on the part of CCP? Did they create an environment where the risk to a corp not using the exploit was more significant than the risk of getting caught? Worse yet, through a poor handling of the petition system, did they create an environment where players could expect no relief from the unfair advantages taken by their "enemies."
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:40:00 - [1667] Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity The mass banning was a knee jerk reaction and badly implemented. Lets just look; This has been going on for 4 years, another 4 weeks won't make much of a difference. In those 4 weeks, CCP could have looked at the economy, the impact, the effect of closing this and analyzed the consequences. We may now well be faced with a market and production collapse. As someone mentioned previously in RL governments have nationalised banks and other financial institutions - this might need to be a possibility here. If the sudden flow of these resources is withdrawn it will cause chaos. There needs to be a regulated and steady decrease until the player base is able to fill the void the mass ban has created. Excuse my English, but I must speak on this. I support mass banning for all the people. While CCP doing it, they ban you as well since you are posting alt, I look right behind your words at you, and it sounds like you are helping them. No damage serious enough for the cheaters, no penalty big enough for the cheaters. I have played other games the cheaters took over. Its like FPS when they can be invisible and get unlimited ammo and biggest guns and shoot you through walls. Soon everyone is glitching and using hacks just to survive. Then people are like "screw this, waste of time". Game is wrecked and guilds all die from it. TBH I even support banning players who were not cheaters directly but benefited from this. The reason is the only true penalty in MMO is to destroy the group of people. Accounts bought and sold. To get at problem, you must hurt the real people and punish, and inspire fear of retaliation so future cheaters noticed this. This means hurting not just cheaters, but also crush their friends. I support full absolute ruthlessness that would make Joseph Stalin cringe in fear. CCP and eve is better off with these people sent to biomass, all of them, both direct and indirect people. CCP is God in EvE, no need for reasons, no need for excuses. This is not a court and judges and lawyers. No reasons needed, CCP can ban without questions. This account is not paid up and will end. Message sent CCP. Will be activated ONLY when answers given. I want them dead and gone from EvE. Your choice, cheaters who pay with stolen isk to buy GTC, or paying customer who gives you money. Your choice CCP. Thats it.
Exaga Gallente Nimbus Corporation Orange Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:41:00 - [1668] Originally by: Karc Thule Is it right for CCP to punish those who took advantage? Is it just to convict a criminal when they did nothing to police his neighbors? Survival is not an exploit. In truth, I can't say I have an answer to the conflicting responsibilities here. Who is more culpable, the man who eats the fruit or the god who builds no fences? Let the question be theoretical. You can use the exploit that would save your corp or you can choose law and watch other powers rise around you. It would be an interesting vote. EULA Scams & Exploits Exploits An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM as soon as possible so that they can investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss: While in the game, select the "Help" function from your NeoCom. Press the "Petitions" button, then "New Petitions". Select the "exploit" category and press "Ok", then write as detailed a description as you can, including if possible the exact circumstances under which the cheat or exploit can be reproduced, and whether you know of any players who have been taking advantage of it. How can I fight those who exploit me? Please file a petition every time you witness exploits. In such petitions, please submit as much details as you possibly can about the incident, since the more information the GMs have, the better chance you have of reimbursement. Even seemingly small, insignificant details can mean the difference between a lost fortune and a happy reimbursed player. Be sure to file an exploit petition immediately if you feel you have been a victim of an exploit. The longer you wait, the lesser your chances of a GM being able to help you. Furthermore, if you are the victim of an exploit, we urge you not to try to use the same exploit on someone else in order to regain your lost property, as that will only make the matter worse. If you do so, you forfeit any chance of reimbursement and might yourself be the subject of any action CCP sees fit to take once the exploit gets discovered. ====== The above is a direct quote from the Eve EULA
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:48:00 - [1669] Originally by: CCP Wrangler The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. For those that missed it... I put it in a nice quote above. The market will be affected... and in the end the same players that put in time and hard work, are the same ones that are now going to have to rebound with more hard work. Do you really think that's an acceptable compensation for the damage this exploit has done? Do you think CCP is avoiding accountability and leaving the pile of trash caused by this left for the players to clean up? Great... now I'm supposed to train and work hard in the alchemy process to fix your **** up. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
scutternut Amarr Capital Ships Inc. B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:50:00 - [1670] First note to all..... The thread is on an Epic Lvl now. As an player of a vast game, i can see two definate sides to this. When i first logged into Eve-online, i was told this was an anything goes game. The GM's are cooler than #@$% and its a super graphical miracal it works. I logged in and made a toon named *****assho. Ask people, i was proud the filters didn't remove my name. After i joined a corporation, people loved my name. I was able to do anything as long as others were not offended / Or complaining. If it is an exploit, Ladies and Gentlemen... They deserve to keep what they made, and deserve to keep thier accounts. They found a game mechanic that allowed for the game to give them something they did not earn. Did they not earn it? I think they did sort of.... after all they were brave to push the envelope. Now side two.... From a owner stand point, Economic breakdowns in games suck. People leave and play other games. This exploit is off the scale of anythign ever in eve. corp thefts and everything combined with people just being stupid.... dosen't even come close to the sort of impact this could have. For CCP to allow something like this to exist for so long with out noticeing peoples wallets exceeding 3 trillion isk. Does anyone moniter such things? I was told they can read my chat logs and stuff like that.... if they can't see people getting more than they put in to soemthing.... there is a HUGE problem. Pilots that exploited the system have caused a kind of damage that is un repairable. You hav the free isk from the stuff they didn;t earn. Add in the fact that it drove down the market for others not to be able to sell as high.. then add into the effect of people not being able to make money building T2 products. Finally enter the common pod pilot. Now his Probes for scanning out Plex's and Grav sites just jumpped 200%. ( that number was pulled right from where the sun don't shine... but i bet its close.) My final note, punish the CCP employee that needs to get reprimanded for not taking the ticket to the next lvl. The players should get reinstated, and maybe as a consequnese ( i spelled that wrong.) Lose the pos's they put up to exploit. Three cheers for the PANSY, CCP Epic Failure to maintain a FAIR game for everyone. Players, Hats off to you for having the Intestinal Fortitude to push that envelope three feet farther. ~huzzah~

Karc Thule	Posted - 2008.12.12 18:57:00 - [1671] Exaga, I don't think any of us know the truth or the extent of this issue, but I am addressing a specific theory. It loosely states that CCP was remiss in their handling of the petition system. One of the benefits of playing EVE and other MMORPG's is that morality plays a much stronger role than in traditional video games. The choice to be moral or immoral and even how to define morality are substantive in games such as EVE. If this is a mere exploit, then we are left discussing how much detail we deserve. However, I think my question stands higher. Was justice done? Were the exploiters acting immorally or were they merely acting in an immoral environment?
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:01:00 - [1672] Originally by: scutternut If it is an exploit... They deserve to keep what they made, and deserve to keep thier accounts. They found a game mechanic that allowed for the game to give them something they did not earn. Did they not earn it? I think they did sort of.... after all they were brave to push the envelope. Utter non-sense. If I find and exploit a security hole in a bank's online system, can I keep all the money I make from that exploit with no repercussions? Absolutely not, when I'm caught I should expect to be punished according to the law. The exact same thing applies here: the cheaters found a hole, exploited it for their own profit, and have been caught. You would have CCP let them go on their merry way? Non-sense. Ban them, their MAC addresses, and use of their credit devices. Yes, they can get around that (swapping NICs, getting new credit cards, new email addys, etc), but the GMs paying attention should help keep some of the less ingenious ones out of EVE. I really don't see the point in disbanding alliances. That's just silly. They disband, and two minutes later are in a new one. Big whoop. These players have already proven themselves to be people of low character, and as such they'll keep coming back. Rats always come back to the same pile of--- well, you know. ------------------------------------------- 1) Dell XPS M1710 (3Gig, nVidia GeForce Go 7900 GS, Vista Business SP1, display res 1920x1200, DX 10) 2) AMD/64 (3200+) on Asus AN8SLI32 w/3Gig, nVidia Ge
Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:01:00 - [1673] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar I heard a rumour that we are going to rollback to 4 years ago. Confirmation? Confirming this. I heard that from reliable source. Alas those sources demanded anonymity (NDA stuff) so I can't tell you who it is. When is the rollback? And what happens to people who haven't been subscribed that long? :(
jason hill Caldari Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:07:00 - [1674] walks in and puts tin foil hat on this isnt the 1st time this has happend. Ive read most of the threads but many of the vets seem to be forgetting the Miner2 bpo fiasco. and how that affected the gameplay at the time..... one just seems to get used to it after a few years ....creeps back to the door and closes it very quitely behind him destroy everything you touch
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:07:00 - [1675] Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar I heard a rumour that we are going to rollback to 4 years ago. Confirmation? Confirming this. I heard that from reliable source. Alas those sources demanded anonymity (NDA stuff) so I can't tell you who it is. When is the rollback? And what happens to people who haven't been subscribed that long? :( Tomorrow DT, you better give me your stuff now for safekeeping.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:09:00 - [1676] Originally by: Karc Thule Was justice done? Were the exploiters acting immorally or were they merely acting in an immoral environment? I think the design of this game enables people to seek out immoral actions. That itself, should tell you it's an immoral environment. From what this game has taught me, is that you almost never take a bigger risk than the reward. PvP is in straight line with that... if you don't think you're going to come out on top, you either flee, or you fight just for the FUN of it. If you can make isk in Empire, what's the point of 0.0? The true deciding factor is the SURE win, or the SURE take... the "easy button" so to speak... which leads people to seek that out. An exploit like this is beyond what most could of imagined, the effects have most likely helped shape the entire Eve universe. Just cutting those immoral people out, WILL have dire consequences... the universe has been shaped from this, you can't expect the players to fix it themselves. CCP won't compensate... there are little things they can do... but in the end, those who are honorable game players suffered before and now will suffer after as well... as we watch CCP sweep all this under the rug. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:10:00 - [1677] Edited by: Andrue on 12/12/2008 19:14:55 Originally by: Kei Gravatid Another post points to the fast that this exploit was pointed out to them in 2005. Where? The only link I've seen is someone complaining about the suffering their corp has endured due to an unnamed exploit. Would you describe having access to unlimited, low cost ferrogel as 'suffering'? There have been several issues with POS over the years since they were introduced. Is it really so hard to believe that one person might be affected by more than one of them? I have seen no evidence from any reputable source that suggests a long term issue. All I've seen is speculation based on flimsy if not downright made-up evidence. Maybe it did go on for four years. Maybe only a few weeks. Right now we don't have the evidence so we can only guess. Could large numbers of POS been operated for four years using an exploit before CCP became aware of it? Doubtful. Could this operational technique have been kept secret by a select few players? No way. People love to believe in conspiracies. They like to pretend that they are in possession of information that no-one else is. It makes them feel important. Others just like to be part of a group and are happy to be swept along with the flow. Sadly few people are prepared to accept prosaic, boring evidence and even fewer are prepared to wait while the evidence is gathered. They'd far rather go off half-***ed spouting ill-considered theories. It's entertaining as long as it's only a game but I shudder at the thought that some of you people act like this in real-life. If have two pieces of advice: Be patient. * Life is generally boring. Sorry, but it is. The explanation most likely to be correct is the one that is the simplest and least complicated. Of course this doesn't mean that the exploit hasn't been around that long but it does mean that you shouldn't leap to conclusions and shouldn't judge people guilty before you've got all the evidence. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
EmposterII	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:11:00 - [1678] Edited by: EmposterII on 12/12/2008 19:13:37 Edited by: EmposterII on 12/12/2008 19:12:46 Originally by: Exaga Originally by: Karc Thule Is it right for CCP to punish those who took advantage? Is it just to convict a criminal when they did nothing to police his neighbors? Survival is not an exploit. In truth, I can't say I have an answer to the conflicting responsibilities here. Who is more culpable, the man who eats the fruit or the god who builds no fences? Let the question be theoretical. You can use the exploit that would save your corp or you can choose law and watch other powers rise around you. It would be an interesting vote. EULA Scams & Exploits Exploits An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM as soon as possible so that they can investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss: While in the game, select the "Help" function from your NeoCom. Press the "Petitions" button, then "New Petitions". Select the "exploit" category and press "Ok", then write as detailed a description as you can, including if possible the exact circumstances under which the cheat or exploit can be reproduced, and whether you know of any players who have been taking advantage of it. How can I fight those who exploit me? Please file a petition every time you witness exploits. In such petitions, please submit as much details as you possibly can about the incident, since the more information the GMs have, the better chance you have of reimbursement. Even seemingly small, insignificant details can mean the difference between a lost fortune and a happy reimbursed player. Be sure to file an exploit petition immediately if you feel you have been a victim of an exploit. The longer you wait, the lesser your chances of a GM being able to help you. Furthermore, if you are the victim of an exploit, we urge you not to try to use the same exploit on someone else in order to regain your lost property, as that will only make the matter worse. If you do so, you forfeit any chance of reimbursement and might yourself be the subject of any action CCP sees fit to take once the exploit gets discovered. ====== The above is a direct quote from the Eve EULA Congratulations on your ability to quote. You completely ignore the idea that the principles in your EULA quote are invalidated when CCP fails to take action to protect those people who are disadvantaged by others exploiting. If CCP does nothing to protect you, then you are left with two choices: protect yourself (in this case use the exploit as well), or let yourself be walked on by those people that CCP could not be bothered to rein in. That said, I fully support the bans, and hope to see more of them. The game just got REAL exciting!
Rosur Phoibe Enterprises Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:11:00 - [1679] Originally by: Innocent II TBH I even support banning players who were not cheaters directly but benefited from this. The reason is the only true penalty in MMO is to destroy the group of people. Accounts bought and sold. To get at problem, you must hurt the real people and punish, and inspire fear of retaliation so future cheaters noticed this. This means hurting not just cheaters, but also crush their friends. I support full absolute ruthlessness that would make Joseph Stalin cringe in fear. CCP and eve is better off with these people sent to biomass, all of them, both direct and indirect people. CCP is God in EvE, no need for reasons, no need for excuses. This is not a court and judges and lawyers. No reasons needed, CCP can ban without questions. If u ban anyone who was affected by this then ccp would have to ban everyone(excepet people who dont use T2) as the expolit drove down T2 prices by quite a bit.
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:13:00 - [1680] Originally by: Innocent II Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity The mass banning was a knee jerk reaction and badly implemented. Lets just look; This has been going on for 4 years, another 4 weeks won't make much of a difference. In those 4 weeks, CCP could have looked at the economy, the impact, the effect of closing this and analyzed the consequences. We may now well be faced with a market and production collapse. As someone mentioned previously in RL governments have nationalised banks and other financial institutions - this might need to be a possibility here. If the sudden flow of these resources is withdrawn it will cause chaos. There needs to be a regulated and steady decrease until the player base is able to fill the void the mass ban has created. Excuse my English, but I must speak on this. I support mass banning for all the people. While CCP doing it, they ban you as well since you are posting alt, I look right behind your words at you, and it sounds like you are helping them. No damage serious enough for the cheaters, no penalty big enough for the cheaters. I have played other games the cheaters took over. Its like FPS when they can be invisible and get unlimited ammo and biggest guns and shoot you through walls. Soon everyone is glitching and using hacks just to survive. Then people are like "screw this, waste of time". Game is wrecked and guilds all die from it. TBH I even support banning players who were not cheaters directly but benefited from this. The reason is the only true penalty in MMO is to destroy the group of people. Accounts bought and sold. To get at problem, you must hurt the real people and punish, and inspire fear of retaliation so future cheaters noticed this. This means hurting not just cheaters, but also crush their friends. I support full absolute ruthlessness that would make Joseph Stalin cringe in fear. CCP and eve is better off with these people sent to biomass, all of them, both direct and indirect people. CCP is God in EvE, no need for reasons, no need for excuses. This is not a court and judges and lawyers. No reasons needed, CCP can ban without questions. This account is not paid up and will end. Message sent CCP. Will be activated ONLY when answers given. I want them dead and gone from EvE. Your choice, cheaters who pay with stolen isk to buy GTC, or paying customer who gives you money. Your choice CCP. Thats it. First, I am not a posting ALT - I am a CEO of a Corp. Second, they are corporations - not guilds! Third, I do not support what they did but I do believe CCP should have taken some time to analyse it further Fourth, you are an idiot for even suggesting I might be helping them just because I put forward an alternative viewpoint. As for saying "both direct and indirect people." you prove my point as to your stupidity because this has affected the entire market. Fifth, go back to WoW.

Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:19:00 - [1681] Originally by: Rosur Originally by: Innocent II TBH I even support banning players who were not cheaters directly but benefited from this. The reason is the only true penalty in MMO is to destroy the group of people. Accounts bought and sold. To get at problem, you must hurt the real people and punish, and inspire fear of retaliation so future cheaters noticed this. This means hurting not just cheaters, but also crush their friends. I support full absolute ruthlessness that would make Joseph Stalin cringe in fear. CCP and eve is better off with these people sent to biomass, all of them, both direct and indirect people. CCP is God in EvE, no need for reasons, no need for excuses. This is not a court and judges and lawyers. No reasons needed, CCP can ban without questions. If u ban anyone who was affected by this then ccp would have to ban everyone(excepet people who dont use T2) as the expolit drove down T2 prices by quite a bit. If everyone benifitted from lower T2 prices, it's status quo. Only the perpetrators gained something from NOTHING. Huge difference....Hope you spot it :p
scutternut Amarr Capital Ships Inc. B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:22:00 - [1682] Originally by: Borun Tal Originally by: scutternut If it is an exploit... They deserve to keep what they made, and deserve to keep thier accounts. They found a game mechanic that allowed for the game to give them something they did not earn. Did they not earn it? I think they did sort of.... after all they were brave to push the envelope. Utter non-sense. If I find and exploit a security hole in a bank's online system, can I keep all the money I make from that exploit with no repercussions? Absolutely not, when I'm caught I should expect to be punished according to the law. The exact same thing applies here: the cheaters found a hole, exploited it for their own profit, and have been caught. You would have CCP let them go on their merry way? Non-sense. Ban them, their MAC addresses, and use of their credit devices. Yes, they can get around that (swapping NICs, getting new credit cards, new email addys, etc), but the GMs paying attention should help keep some of the less ingenious ones out of EVE. I really don't see the point in disbanding alliances. That's just silly. They disband, and two minutes later are in a new one. Big whoop. These players have already proven themselves to be people of low character, and as such they'll keep coming back. Rats always come back to the same pile of--- well, you know. Sorry to have upset you mate. "I gave an opinion and like feet almost all of them stink." How is CCP going to make this a closed issue for us, the consumer? I think they are not going to care much, other than folowing the rules they set forth in the eula we all agreed to when we started to play eve online. Just one other thought.... Does anyone here remember how EVERY absolutly everyone cried about being able to kill a freighter at a gate in empire? Running into people to knock them away from the gate.... then have people come out and shoot them up in t1 fitted ships in order to get the loot it would drop. heh that used to be thought as an exploit too. Now its commonplace all over eve online. Before i post anything else i would love to hear the Deffinative CCP stance on Exploits. can someone spend 2 hours looking it up in the eula and post it here? I guess what i am trying to say is, i think creativeness should be rewarded. Just about anything in this game is allowed. Heck, Having someone web me in my freighter to get me to insta warp could get me insta banned? Heck i dunno if i wanna play in a game where i fear deletion. Well play safe, i am sure they will make a decison on everything soon. oh, btw people i mine moons as well. Does anyone need any mercury? lol i know not on this side of forums :o) Just had to upset people. - Scutternut
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:25:00 - [1683] Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Originally by: Abrazzar Confirming this. I heard that from reliable source. Alas those sources demanded anonymity (NDA stuff) so I can't tell you who it is. When is the rollback? And what happens to people who haven't been subscribed that long? :( Well, beside the fact that it is a stupid rumour with no basis in reality, if CCP were ever to consider this, I'm outta here. I love Eve, but I don't own a pos, and I won't invest another year or two in the game starting from scratch. That WOULD be the NGE of Eve. I've not cheated. If I'm "punished" I'm out. And I'll self destruct my ships and dump my reprocessed stuff in the nearest sun. :) --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:27:00 - [1684] Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Originally by: Abrazzar Confirming this. I heard that from reliable source. Alas those sources demanded anonymity (NDA stuff) so I can't tell you who it is. When is the rollback? And what happens to people who haven't been subscribed that long? :( Well, beside the fact that it is a stupid rumour with no basis in reality, if CCP were ever to consider this, I'm outta here. I love Eve, but I don't own a pos, and I won't invest another year or two in the game starting from scratch. That WOULD be the NGE of Eve. I've not cheated. If I'm "punished" I'm out. And I'll self destruct my ships and dump my reprocessed stuff in the nearest sun. :) I feel like I have been punished for four years...And I am not the only one !
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:29:00 - [1685] I couldn't stomach a full reset. I, however, would be up for a full asset wipe, but keeping skillpoints.
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:37:00 - [1686] Originally by: Karina Bellac I couldn't stomach a full reset. I, however, would be up for a full asset wipe, but keeping skillpoints. Well, most people haven't cheated. Most people have played this game with the assumption that there's a level playing field, that risk is indeed a factor and that if you overcome the fear of risk you will be rewarded - or not. Now, we find that some bastards have found a way to completely negate all the risk, get free playtime, get infinite access to anything that will reduce whatever risk there was left. I say all of Eve declare war on the cheater. Pod them wherever you see them. Let CCP put a billion isk bounty on whoever remains after bans and corporate and alliance wipes. Let's aggregate the risk for the bastards to a point where the game becomes so dangerous that they can barely undock. But to wipe the entire player base, that's too much, and if it happens - I'm out. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:39:00 - [1687] Well CCP, As you're probably madly rewriting POS code right now, I don't suppose you could write a part that allows public use of research slots?
suza M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:40:00 - [1688] I love how short peoples memories are : BIG's time in Fountain and all the strange things happening then, The T2 drops from agents The T2 print scandal with BoB The iffy GM intervention during the ASCN / BoB wars and now this one and people seem shocked. None of them have ever been handled well and though the accounts have been banned I bet the player involved have hidden fortunes on hidden accounts. As you can guess it has never stopped me playing and I wait in anticipation for the next. However, I bet lots of greedy T2 producers will use this as an excuse to hike their prices and bleed as some more, now that worry's me more than the newest exploit ! - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for Killing!
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:41:00 - [1689] Originally by: Karina Bellac I couldn't stomach a full reset. I, however, would be up for a full asset wipe, but keeping skillpoints. Hmm. Asset liquidation (everything a character owns being converted to isk) followed by destruction of every POS is more palatable to me. Some of us worked hard for our isk; well someone did anyway Seriously though, this whole mess could be a perfect excuse to decouple Sov. from POS's and completely reset the stagnant 0.0 situation. There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:42:00 - [1690] Originally by: suza None of them have ever been handled well and though the accounts have been banned I bet the player involved have hidden fortunes on hidden accounts. A number of accounts that were doing this probably aren't banned. Probably because they got advance notice that a quick TQ audit was about to happen.

Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:42:00 - [1691] Edited by: Scoop de''Woop on 12/12/2008 19:45:29 Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: Karina Bellac I couldn't stomach a full reset. I, however, would be up for a full asset wipe, but keeping skillpoints. Well, most people haven't cheated. Most people have played this game with the assumption that there's a level playing field, that risk is indeed a factor and that if you overcome the fear of risk you will be rewarded - or not. Now, we find that some bastards have found a way to completely negate all the risk, get free playtime, get infinite access to anything that will reduce whatever risk there was left. I say all of Eve declare war on the cheater. Pod them wherever you see them. Let CCP put a billion isk bounty on whoever remains after bans and corporate and alliance wipes. Let's aggregate the risk for the bastards to a point where the game becomes so dangerous that they can barely undock. But to wipe the entire player base, that's too much, and if it happens - I'm out. The characters have already been banned so that their characters are junk. On the issue of removing all of the assets that were built/bought with this ISK, this would also be unfair to any players that have used those assets. In the case of outposts that were built, the outpost may have been taken over by another alliance. Should you punish the new station holder just because the previous alliance built it with dirty ISK? That is just one example of what might happen if CCP goes in with a knife and cuts all of that type of stuff out. I honestly think banning all of the relevant accounts and looking at the petition policies is the only thing they can do that is somewhat fair. Open to other ideas though... Edit: spelling typo
Ikathis sihtaki	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:47:00 - [1692] Ban and remove it all. Can we say welcome new guys, to prices experienced back in '05 - '06?
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:47:00 - [1693] Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity First, I am not a posting ALT - I am a CEO of a Corp. Second, they are corporations - not guilds! Third, I do not support what they did but I do believe CCP should have taken some time to analyse it further Fourth, you are an idiot for even suggesting I might be helping them just because I put forward an alternative viewpoint. As for saying "both direct and indirect people." you prove my point as to your stupidity because this has affected the entire market. Fifth, go back to WoW. People are not so stupid as to believe you. Here is how you sound to me "Hello, I make excuses for scammers and cheaters". You are made so fast you have no picture. You are a new guy. Seems like you use forum damage control II, and you are well in structure. I talked about other games with guilds I played ruined by cheating as a lesson for what can happen to EvE. You can know this is true but are too stupid to read my post. Here is video example for your slow brain. Cheats wrecks games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkqEKh6Qqj4&feature=related show me the money power overwhelming
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:48:00 - [1694] Originally by: Baske Personally, I think that it is time for the Jovians to wreck some bigtime 0.0 Havoc. What he said. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus? http://loseloose.com/
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:48:00 - [1695] Edited by: Mari Katarin on 12/12/2008 19:51:22 Originally by: Sergeant Spot Yet I am strangely unbanned, and the entire corp is chugging along nicely. Won't cut it. Remember the last time the "tinfoil lol" arguments were brought out? And then we found the tinfoil was justified. One of the problems with having alliance members with developer friends on call via MSN is... people assume you get special treatment. Joking about getting Molle's titan reimbursed for no reason while an enemy alliance titan lost due to bugs is not doesn't help. Unfair, yes. But there are some image and credibility downsides to being in BoB. Many people assume you get preferential treatment based on documented previous experience and discount your accomplishments and arguments like the one you just made. Quote: We look forward to up coming market changes. You and me both.
Jen Newb	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:49:00 - [1696] I am deeply concerned about the prices of T2 items. CCP please don't let the prices rice too high - I love the ships I'm flying atm Jen Newb
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:53:00 - [1697] Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: Karina Bellac I couldn't stomach a full reset. I, however, would be up for a full asset wipe, but keeping skillpoints. Well, most people haven't cheated. Most people have played this game with the assumption that there's a level playing field, that risk is indeed a factor and that if you overcome the fear of risk you will be rewarded - or not. Now, we find that some bastards have found a way to completely negate all the risk, get free playtime, get infinite access to anything that will reduce whatever risk there was left. I say all of Eve declare war on the cheater. Pod them wherever you see them. Let CCP put a billion isk bounty on whoever remains after bans and corporate and alliance wipes. Let's aggregate the risk for the bastards to a point where the game becomes so dangerous that they can barely undock. But to wipe the entire player base, that's too much, and if it happens - I'm out. Having your mate pod you is far from difficult.
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:53:00 - [1698] Originally by: Salinity Now recieves receives Originally by: Salinity Now allready already Originally by: Salinity Now loose lose You spell like a 5 year old. So, we shall assume you also think like one, thus your post is ignored. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus? http://loseloose.com/
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:53:00 - [1699] At the moment I think that at least the whole D2 and following alliances/corps knew about this exploit. Actually it is difficult to believe that the other alliances were unaware of this exploit over such a long time. If they used the exploit like the already revealed cheaters did is some other question.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:55:00 - [1700] Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Originally by: Salinity Now recieves receives Originally by: Salinity Now allready already Originally by: Salinity Now loose lose You spell like a 5 year old. So, we shall assume you also think like one, thus your post is ignored. You are the one acting like a 5 year old, with lack of knowledge that spelling capabilities does not have to equal age or intelligence.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:58:00 - [1701] Originally by: Scoop de'Woop The characters have already been banned so that their characters are junk. On the issue of removing all of the assets that were built/bought with this ISK, this would also be unfair to any players that have used those assets. In the case of outposts that were built, the outpost may have been taken over by another alliance. Should you punish the new station holder just because the previous alliance built it with dirty ISK? That is just one example of what might happen if CCP goes in with a knife and cuts all of that type of stuff out. I honestly think banning all of the relevant accounts and looking at the petition policies is the only thing they can do that is somewhat fair. Open to other ideas though... Edit: spelling typo It is quite simple, trace the money to those that received it. And take the money from them. Destroying things that were already taken from them makes no sense at all. The same about people who bought the materials from them. As long as they didn't buy it, for 1 ISK the ton, in which case it is an obvious money laundering scheme, they are innocent and should not be affected. The money they payed should vanish from the cheaters' accounts, though. It is not hard to trace all the money, all that is required is some competence. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:58:00 - [1702] Originally by: RedSplat Heres an idea: This meeting coming up. Broadcast it in real-time through an Eve channel or make an un-abridged recording of the meeting. Hows that for transparency? Shame CCP would never do that That's impossible because 90% of those meetings are Euros with bad english trying to understand Icelandics with even worse English, and Americans are just idling, not understanding anything and missing Dunkin Donuts. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus? http://loseloose.com/
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 19:59:00 - [1703] Originally by: Zathi Shaitan You spell like a 5 year old. So, we shall assume you also think like one, thus your post is ignored. Or maybe they spell like a 25 year old for whom english is their fourth language.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:00:00 - [1704] Edited by: Baske on 12/12/2008 20:00:24 Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Originally by: RedSplat Heres an idea: This meeting coming up. Broadcast it in real-time through an Eve channel or make an un-abridged recording of the meeting. Hows that for transparency? Shame CCP would never do that That's impossible because 90% of those meetings are Euros with bad english trying to understand Icelandics with even worse English, and Americans are just idling, not understanding anything and missing Dunkin Donuts. OK, I just flamed you....but this time you made me rofl...Thanks mate :)
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:04:00 - [1705] Hey, about 1 month ago... WARhammer Online was down for 35 minutes (they gave out a warning though) and offered every player a full day of subscription time. hint hint CCP... this crap is worth at least a month free in order for many people to continue enduring this circus. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus? http://loseloose.com/
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:04:00 - [1706] Demand to CCP: Terminate every Asset including Supercapitals, Capitals, T2 Blueprint, Ships and Moduls ownd by their newly merged Corp AMT. (from ASW and Moontemplars, confirmed cheaters) While I write this, Evoke is evacuating the remaining of their "cheated" Supercapital fleet and Moonmaterials to Low sec. Down with Cheaters!
Zenologic Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:04:00 - [1707] Originally by: Sergeant Spot Originally by: AkRoYeR and I put my money on.... 1. BoB 2. Goonswarm Way to go guys, game ruined! :( I am a BoB director in a BoB industrial corp. A Corp who's primary purpose over the last 4 years has been POS/moon mining work. On many occations, I have personally done POS work (although I mostly build with the finished products...) Yet I am strangely unbanned, and the entire corp is chugging along nicely. We look forward to up coming market changes. ......damn, that was no fun...... ........ok, here is something for the emo crowd: HOW YOU SUCKERS LIKE PAYING MY ACCOUNT OVER THE LAST 4 YEARS!!!11111!!!! lol1111 Feel better? WTF
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:07:00 - [1708] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: CCP Wrangler The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. For those that missed it... I put it in a nice quote above. The market will be affected... and in the end the same players that put in time and hard work, are the same ones that are now going to have to rebound with more hard work. Do you really think that's an acceptable compensation for the damage this exploit has done? Do you think CCP is avoiding accountability and leaving the pile of trash caused by this left for the players to clean up? Great... now I'm supposed to train and work hard in the alchemy process to fix your **** up. removes tinfoil hat A few questions, here... 1) You seem to assume that people who are mining legit are going to see prices go down when the supply of duped minerals ends: "are the same ones that are now going to have to rebound with more hard work." Economics 101 - demand remains the same, but supply bottoms out - what exactly happens to price? Hint - "down" isn't part of the answer. So people that still mine the high-end will benefit. People that buy materials and produce T2 items are going to hurt for a bit, until more people learn "alchemy", but that's the way it should have been. 2) Please prove a link between this exploit and the introduction of "alchemy", and it better be good considering "alchemy" was released a while ago and BEFORE the exploit was identified. Unless you can prove the above, accusing CCP of making you learn alchemy to fix anything is just babble. 3) What do you expect CCP to do - dump a boatload of materials created out of nothing to keep the market stable? That's a rather outlandish expectation. Yes, the prices of T2's might rise some, but if they do, than that's where they should have been all along, right? I'm personally looking for CCP to be as thorough as they can be in punishing the exploiters in this case, but I'm also rational enough to say that they should only go so far. They could pull everyone off of everything to pour over records and find every last person that took the slightest advantage (and knew they were), but that would be silly, don't you agree? I seriously doubt that anything on the scale that disgruntled banned player was talking about could have been kept going for as long as he said it was, or it would have been as common knowledge as Ghost Training was. If CCP knew and ignored it, the player base would have circulated the knowledge almost freely, and more of us would have known...which isn't the case. So, my instinct is that the banned person lied to try to get even with CCP. In the end, the real extent of it will be apparent simply in the magnitude of the account bans, and the flux of the market. I hope CCP gives us more information, but the market will tell the real story IMO.
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:08:00 - [1709] Originally by: Reithar Hi there i have read this link and I like to respond to what I have read. When reading this 'link' i felt like everybody else that it isn't fair what those players did! I totaly aqgreed with CCP that they banned those players from EVE and destroyed there posses. The main reason for that is they abused an exploid and that isn't fair to others. But on the other hand the market in EVE is accustomed to such a flow in components for a very long period (4 years). That by removing everything it will have a giant impact on everything that is going on at the T2 marktet. This means (netto/netto) that every player in EVE is being punnished because a small group did find an exploid. That doesn't appear to be fair / honnest to all those other players. Everybody will suffer from this..... The story get stranger / more intresting........ After reading this i took the liberty to have a look in google and did find a site called scraphead. And i did read a response from one of the players that was banned. This makes it even more intresting..... Player involved wrote how they found this exploid and what they did after they found it... - It was reported to CCP to make them aware of the exploid. - They only received a confirmation and that it was closed. If this is true (I do not have any reason to doubt that at this time) the reaction of CCP to this exploid after 4 years goes a bit far.....and is rather out of line. Short spoken you can say: This is not done. Especially seen the fact that it was reported and was used for more then 4 years. Hench everybody is being punnished due to the fact that CCP has slipped this reported problem / exploid because the whole T2 market will have to recover from what CCP did. Instead they should have fixed the exploid and then regulate the market for a certain amount of time so the impact wouldn't have such a dissasterious outcome to all of us players. CCP is in there right to react like they did as long as they didn't have the information in an earlier stage and declined there intrest in this exploid. CCP should look at there own departments for neglecting this reported exploid. And again it is not done to punish all for an abused exploid a few found out over such a long period.. . Just a concerned player Really dude, can you spell "exploiT" properly ONE time, or you are really THAT stupid? ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus? http://loseloose.com/
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:09:00 - [1710] Originally by: Ebon Rue Whoot! Yay for common sense prevailing in the midst of chaos. For those wondering, it went like this. Player discovers exploit to create t2 mats out of thin air. Player shares exploit with a small group. This group proceeds to make billions of ISK as they flood the market with these t2 mats. CCP finds out, and perma bans those obviously implicit in the exploit. To be safe they wipe the assets of the involved corps. Player and group throws a tantrum, sets out to screw CCP. (Something made easy due to the handling of the T20 incident, trust is susceptible to sensationalist gossip.) CCP continues their thorough investigation while player base goes into a frenzy about an exploit that "OMG! CCP HAS KNOWN 4 FOUR years!!" An unproven fact that market numbers DO NOT support. Some players quit in anger, otherwise the world keeps turning until a journal is published on the matter. Keep your head on your shoulders folks, bust out the tinfoil hats. This isn't PvP, it's PvCCP. Finally- a voice of reason. WTF people? If you bothered to read what "some1" wrote, he says they submitted a petition when it happened. Nothing happened as a result of the submission. How that turns into CCP being in collusion with those corps or alliances is baffling to me. Really, it like a scene out of a Monty Python movie. Chill out you F***ing Drama Queens.

Allister Feind V I R I I	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:13:00 - [1711] Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Originally by: Reithar Hi there i have read this link and I like to respond to what I have read. When reading this 'link' i felt like everybody else that it isn't fair what those players did! I totaly aqgreed with CCP that they banned those players from EVE and destroyed there posses. The main reason for that is they abused an exploid and that isn't fair to others. But on the other hand the market in EVE is accustomed to such a flow in components for a very long period (4 years). That by removing everything it will have a giant impact on everything that is going on at the T2 marktet. This means (netto/netto) that every player in EVE is being punnished because a small group did find an exploid. That doesn't appear to be fair / honnest to all those other players. Everybody will suffer from this..... The story get stranger / more intresting........ After reading this i took the liberty to have a look in google and did find a site called scraphead. And i did read a response from one of the players that was banned. This makes it even more intresting..... Player involved wrote how they found this exploid and what they did after they found it... - It was reported to CCP to make them aware of the exploid. - They only received a confirmation and that it was closed. If this is true (I do not have any reason to doubt that at this time) the reaction of CCP to this exploid after 4 years goes a bit far.....and is rather out of line. Short spoken you can say: This is not done. Especially seen the fact that it was reported and was used for more then 4 years. Hench everybody is being punnished due to the fact that CCP has slipped this reported problem / exploid because the whole T2 market will have to recover from what CCP did. Instead they should have fixed the exploid and then regulate the market for a certain amount of time so the impact wouldn't have such a dissasterious outcome to all of us players. CCP is in there right to react like they did as long as they didn't have the information in an earlier stage and declined there intrest in this exploid. CCP should look at there own departments for neglecting this reported exploid. And again it is not done to punish all for an abused exploid a few found out over such a long period.. . Just a concerned player Really dude, can you spell "exploiT" properly ONE time, or you are really THAT stupid? really dude, can you just end yourself? it must be a joy to be around someone so anal in real life.
xaja	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:14:00 - [1712] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update by Customer Support: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Oh god, CCP.... first: by all accounts, this was petitioned much earlier than you claim; years ago - right after moonmining was introduced to the game! So now, finally you make a big stink about it? Icelandic sleepy heads! Is it the cold up there? Have you run out of your special antifreeze? Second: Your claim that those companies who had sploiting towers like that have been made vacant, sounds awefully wrong, cause anyone person joining one of those corps could be completely innocent of the whole scam! Of all the corps I've joined over the years, NONE have disclosed the particulars of their moon mining operations to me, nor did I ever think of asking. So it sounds like I'm just lucky to still be playing, cause by luck of the draw, I didn't join one of THOSE corps? Please tell me you didn't just resort to blanket corp bans?
Carter VanSandt Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:21:00 - [1713] Originally by: SemiCharmed And eve would be a hell of alot more interesting and i would sure as hell take more pride in every kill i get knowing it will make a huge impact on the person that just lost his ship with very little but expencive gear on the market... ..... You get off on the misery of others? Thats pretty far on the ***ed up ladder dude. _______________________________________________ I SURVIVED FERROGATE 2008!**
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:22:00 - [1714] They didn't tell you anything yet asshat- it's being investigated.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:24:00 - [1715] Originally by: Annaphera 2) Please prove a link between this exploit and the introduction of "alchemy", and it better be good considering "alchemy" was released a while ago and BEFORE the exploit was identified. Unless you can prove the above, accusing CCP of making you learn alchemy to fix anything is just babble. Quote: The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. Yes... CCP is telling us to us alchemy to fix the problem. I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended. You can sit there and call it all tin foil hatery... but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this company has failed massively on massive scales time after time... again and again. I'm not out seeking a perfect game... there's bound to be bugs... but players should not be penalized from the exploits of others. CCP will not take accountability, and that is what makes them one of the worst gaming companies ever. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:24:00 - [1716] Originally by: xaja Oh god, CCP.... first: by all accounts, this was petitioned much earlier than you claim; years ago - right after moonmining was introduced to the game! So now, finally you make a big stink about it? Icelandic sleepy heads! Is it the cold up there? Have you run out of your special antifreeze? Sheesh...you've got the word of a single individual that was banned against that of CCP. A vengeful cheater's word vs. that of a corp with a history of bungled customer service. Why are you automatically assuming the cheater is the more honest? You think he's got no reason to lie...a lot? Thus far, the market isn't backing him up, nor does the level of action taken by CCP. I guess we'll see in the long run, but I'm not assuming the exploiter is honest.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:34:00 - [1717] Originally by: Pithecanthropus I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended. Obviously nobody suffered from the perfomance issues, random disappearing graphics and other bugs that have been sorted by CCP in the last two months, never mind every fiz before that. Dunno why I bothered answering to that. Still finding this amusing, FYI. ________________________________________________
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:36:00 - [1718] Edited by: Baske on 12/12/2008 20:39:25 Originally by: Annaphera Originally by: xaja Oh god, CCP.... first: by all accounts, this was petitioned much earlier than you claim; years ago - right after moonmining was introduced to the game! So now, finally you make a big stink about it? Icelandic sleepy heads! Is it the cold up there? Have you run out of your special antifreeze? Sheesh...you've got the word of a single individual that was banned against that of CCP. A vengeful cheater's word vs. that of a corp with a history of bungled customer service. Why are you automatically assuming the cheater is the more honest? You think he's got no reason to lie...a lot? Thus far, the market isn't backing him up, nor does the level of action taken by CCP. I guess we'll see in the long run, but I'm not assuming the exploiter is honest. But you assume that CCP (who have history of ingame cheating too, you know) are honest? To me the score is even. Though the above cheater isn't the only one pointing at this as being a very old issue. If you don't trust cheaters, you should not trust CCP, or you are a violating your own rules of who to trust.
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:39:00 - [1719] If you don't believe that this was going on for years, here's a suggestion of how to prove it with complete transparency: Pick a random backup from the last 4 years and restore it on SiSi. Let the players check Moons for suspicious POS setups - There are very specific configurations which anyone in a Covert can detect. Set up a Thread where found exploiters can be published, with SS and locations. Then reset the server every downtime back to the same point for a week, so others can see for themselves. CCP will have found all the expoiters for free. The PlayerBase will have its pound of flesh.
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:45:00 - [1720] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Annaphera 2) Please prove a link between this exploit and the introduction of "alchemy", and it better be good considering "alchemy" was released a while ago and BEFORE the exploit was identified. Unless you can prove the above, accusing CCP of making you learn alchemy to fix anything is just babble. Quote: The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. Yes... CCP is telling us to us alchemy to fix the problem. I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended. You can sit there and call it all tin foil hatery... but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this company has failed massively on massive scales time after time... again and again. I'm not out seeking a perfect game... there's bound to be bugs... but players should not be penalized from the exploits of others. CCP will not take accountability, and that is what makes them one of the worst gaming companies ever. The difference is, they are NOT, as you obliquely suggested earlier (any many others have as well), saying that alchemy was put in to deal with the aftereffects of this exploit. If you weren't trying to insinuate that, I apologize, but others have been, so the point is valid. Now, I'd like to know exactly how you are losing so big based on the effects of this exploit. If you are a materials producer, you get a temporary boost in profit margin. If you are a T2 ship/module builder, you can pass your increased costs down the line until others learn alchemy. If you are burning through a lot of T2 goods, you could drop back to t1 for a while, or not risk quite so many t2's. The last case is the only one that involves a bit of loss, but it isn't that much, and it assumes that the exploit was in wide and long-term use, exactly as the banned person claimed. So far, the evidence isn't there; I just bought some t2 ship mods for the lowest price I ever have, and a quick look at the market prices on some common T2 ships shows only a relatively small spike in the price of some of the larger ones (Hulk, to name one). The materials involved seem to be rising in price, but also seeing many times the usual demand as speculators and hoarders swarm in. I'm not seeing the signs of a big supply drop, here. Wait a bit and see, rather than claiming huge losses while things are still in chaos from the announcement.

Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:49:00 - [1721] Originally by: Doctor Penguin Originally by: Pithecanthropus I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended. Obviously nobody suffered from the perfomance issues, random disappearing graphics and other bugs that have been sorted by CCP in the last two months, never mind every fiz before that. Dunno why I bothered answering to that. Still finding this amusing, FYI. There's a HUGE difference between performance issues where EVERYONE has an equal suffering and then an equal relief when fixed... compared to exploits that cause effects on the market that are "considerable and far reaching". Performance and the game's economy? ... comparing apples and oranges my friend. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Atlas Oracle Minmatar Colossus Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:50:00 - [1722] the lack of CCP posts as this goes on is a joke. CCP is becoming a joke. CCP, you need to communicate, or you'll be seen for what you really are.
Vaarmoth Malinigvious Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:51:00 - [1723] Checking in on page 58. So, we guilty yet?
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:55:00 - [1724] Originally by: Baske Edited by: Baske on 12/12/2008 20:39:25 Originally by: Annaphera Originally by: xaja Oh god, CCP.... first: by all accounts, this was petitioned much earlier than you claim; years ago - right after moonmining was introduced to the game! So now, finally you make a big stink about it? Icelandic sleepy heads! Is it the cold up there? Have you run out of your special antifreeze? Sheesh...you've got the word of a single individual that was banned against that of CCP. A vengeful cheater's word vs. that of a corp with a history of bungled customer service. Why are you automatically assuming the cheater is the more honest? You think he's got no reason to lie...a lot? Thus far, the market isn't backing him up, nor does the level of action taken by CCP. I guess we'll see in the long run, but I'm not assuming the exploiter is honest. But you assume that CCP (who have history of ingame cheating too, you know) are honest? To me the score is even. Though the above cheater isn't the only one pointing at this as being a very old issue. If you don't trust cheaters, you should not trust CCP, or you are a violating your own rules of who to trust. Everyone else claiming that the exploit is that old that I've seen is doing so based on the word of that poster. I've seen one Goon claiming it independently, but he was also trying to pin everything on BoB in the same breath, so that looks more like opportunistic propaganda than truth. Quite frankly, I'm more inclined to trust the one that has more to lose if caught in a lie, which is CCP, until more details are published or indirect evidence makes itself known. Thus far, the indirect evidence (mostly market reaction) is pointing to a small exploit and a lot of hype. Likewise, if this was a big thing that CCP has been deliberately ignoring, why was it not almost as well known as ghost training? You'd think this would be causing a lot less outrage over the fact that it was done at all, and more over it being corrected, just like what happened with ghost training.
Ikathis sihtaki	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:57:00 - [1725] I remember, back in the day, a buddy of mine and I are out probing moons and we stumble upon this POS, that really just didn't look right, the setup. We were doing reactions, the proper way mind you, and this reaction POS just didn't look right. We just wrote it off as some noob who didn't know what he was doing. Guess we were the noobs, not knowing what they were doing. Then about a year later, I remember always hauling reactions out of a corps POS, but never hauling anything to it, aside from fuel, but the moon didn't produce what they were reacting. It also was setup in this odd way. Guess I am happy I am so blissfully ignorant!!! TBH I think this points out, how fubar the whole t2 process is. Without this sploit, the T2 market would be rather weak through the years. By weak, I am saying the avg joe would still be paying astronomical prices for anything not t1. (almost makes you think it was originally put there for a reason). Now with invention, not just BPOs bein around, think of the bottleneck this gonna make. As for alchemy, hear it isn't worth it. Dunno, don't mess with the stuff no more, usually spend most days spinning my ships in station. BAN EM AND BURN IT ALL
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:58:00 - [1726] yikes.. I haven't read all 58 so I apologize to the people who have likely already pointed this out. We are talking trillions of isk here. As far as the idea of one alliance inflicting enough harm on another that they must withdraw to recuperate is concerned, the alliances that benefited from this exploit are invincible. Sure, you can take their space but let up for a moment and they will be right back in shiny new ships. The exploit has been removed but I'd wager that isk remains. The damage is done and simply banning the known exploiters and fixing the bug will not make things right, not by a long shot. CCP needs to be brutal in dealing with those who directly benefited from this exploit. Those exploit corps were operating in someones space... CCP's credibility is sitting somewhere in the negatives after their past screw ups. They need work hard to make things right this time. Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew!
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.12 20:59:00 - [1727] Originally by: Annaphera The difference is, they are NOT, as you obliquely suggested earlier (any many others have as well), saying that alchemy was put in to deal with the aftereffects of this exploit. If you weren't trying to insinuate that, I apologize, but others have been, so the point is valid. I never insinuated that, but it stands by itself that in either case, neither of us can say without a doubt what alchemy's true purpose was. I, however, clearly pointed out that CCP wants us to use alchemy to fix the problem. Quote: Now, I'd like to know exactly how you are losing so big based on the effects of this exploit. The difference between you and I is that I see the big picture. I don't just think about what I have to do... whether it may be paying 20% more for a t2 ship or not. The fact is we've been playing with a tainted market, and now those who were in stable finances, may now have to seek new alternatives. And let's just put out a worse case scenario... say the isk made was used to build a titan... that titan then obliterated a fleet. Those are losses directly related to the POS exploit. I'm not saying that happened, but things DID happen... to what extent? We don't know... but perhaps CCP should look into some compensation for that extent. Just an idea. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Belliana	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:00:00 - [1728] Originally by: Atlas Oracle the lack of CCP posts as this goes on is a joke. CCP is becoming a joke. CCP, you need to communicate, or you'll be seen for what you really are. Whining emoragers like you have been saying this for years and every time the exact same thing happens. CCP handles the problem, ignores the stupid idiotic teenage drama on the forums, and everyone goes back to playing a GAME. Get over yourself please.
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:01:00 - [1729] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Destroying things that were already taken from them makes no sense at all. Thank you for repeating what I said. Originally by: Etho Demerzel As long as they didn't buy it, for 1 ISK the ton, in which case it is an obvious money laundering scheme, they are innocent and should not be affected. The money they payed should vanish from the cheaters' accounts, though. It is not hard to trace all the money, all that is required is some competence. This will work quite well. They already do things like this to track down ISK sellers. However, I never said that it was hard. My post was addressing the people that were calling for the reset of 0.0 or the removal of all of the towers in 0.0 or anything similar.
Sir Asshurt	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:01:00 - [1730] I'm not sure why nobody asks the obvious question to ccp.... dear ccp! the guys you just banned , i mean their stuff ...uhm....i can haz?

Political Prisoner Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:03:00 - [1731] Originally by: Vaarmoth Malinigvious Checking in on page 58. So, we guilty yet? YES ... you are guilty of being a douche bag ... Respectfully, Political Prisoner
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:04:00 - [1732] DOWN with CHEATERS! DOWN WITH EVOKE! They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit. They finished Evacuating to low sec with their cheated Supercapitalfleet. Terminate all their Assets !
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:04:00 - [1733] Originally by: Vaarmoth Malinigvious Checking in on page 58. So, we guilty yet? Apparently, BoB was guilty before the thread even started. Moar BoB accusations!!
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:06:00 - [1734] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit. No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit.
Mes Devour Blackwater Syndicate Shade Underworld	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:06:00 - [1735] Damnit! Who took a diarrhea in the sandbox!?!?
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:08:00 - [1736] Originally by: Scoop de'Woop Originally by: XxHey BabyxX They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit. No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit. They made pleanty of moon materials out of thin air which can be sold for isk. You know with Isk you can buy stuff like T2 blueprints and capital material.
Scoop de'Woop Emino Concepts	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:11:00 - [1737] Originally by: XxHey BabyxX Originally by: Scoop de'Woop Originally by: XxHey BabyxX They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit. No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit. They made pleanty of moon materials out of thin air which can be sold for isk. You know with Isk you can buy stuff like T2 blueprints and capital material. Then you should have said that as it is more accurate according to game mechanics.
Avaleric Amarr SC Special Circumstances	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:12:00 - [1738] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Avaleric "One should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." - Vinnie Jones, Snatch Those who need to quote others are without ideas themselves. I have to admit your quote fits you well, though. Self-knowledge is enlightening. "One should never underest..." well, you know the rest... - Ignorance is bliss...
Dr smartypants	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:13:00 - [1739] Does this mean that eve has hit peak-moon-mins? Is the golden era of cheep T2 ships at an end? Is Capital society at an end? Will we all need to fly low ferrogel responsible T1 hybrids and learn to isk farm for our sustenance? Will All Gore's alchemy trading scheme save us in time?
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:17:00 - [1740] Edited by: XxHey BabyxX on 12/12/2008 21:17:51 Originally by: Scoop de'Woop Originally by: XxHey BabyxX Originally by: Scoop de'Woop Originally by: XxHey BabyxX They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit. No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit. They made pleanty of moon materials out of thin air which can be sold for isk. You know with Isk you can buy stuff like T2 blueprints and capital material. Then you should have said that as it is more accurate according to game mechanics. Well now you know. They started as G Alliance while they first began to exploit that bug, made trillions (most in Moonmaterial asset) over the course of 3 years, while buying T2 blueprints and Supercapitals and GTC for all their Chars, thanks to the exploited Moonmaterial money they got. Terminate every Asset from their main Corp AMT. (former ASW, Moontempler, confirmed cheaters)! DOWN WITH CHEATER! DOWN WITH EVOKE!

PuRuSkA	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:21:00 - [1741] I read lot of the post in this thread since yesterday I must say at first when i read it i thought it was an exploit after quantum rise cause of the suddent price fall in adv moon material that was not supported from what alchemy actualy do, which is not pressuring the price down actualy cause it is not competitive to make it. maybe price went down cause of the fear of it, as the market often react on fear, and now price go up on another fear reaction i would not be surprise there is alot of propaganda and some people just getting your isk out with the new moon material price raise. Reaction of fear would be greater if you think that was going on since 4 years instead of 4 weeks, well i don't know the truth, i am waiting it while reading rumor. i am waiting CCP news asap :) puruska
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:28:00 - [1742] so much tears, i love it. i'm printing the angriest ones and putting them up on my wall confirming that this exploit was around since before POSes even existed, and that it was reported before the bug reporting system was in place. also, that people made googles of money and used it to be better than you. yes, objectively better human beings than you. i know, it sounds unfair, but it's true. in fact, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has more isk than you had used this exploit. where were you? we totally cc'ed you on the eve-mail. everyone, cry moar plox -- i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:29:00 - [1743] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Annaphera The difference is, they are NOT, as you obliquely suggested earlier (any many others have as well), saying that alchemy was put in to deal with the aftereffects of this exploit. If you weren't trying to insinuate that, I apologize, but others have been, so the point is valid. I never insinuated that, but it stands by itself that in either case, neither of us can say without a doubt what alchemy's true purpose was. I, however, clearly pointed out that CCP wants us to use alchemy to fix the problem. Which doesn't matter in the slightest. They are merely pointing out that a means exists to make up for the disappearance of the illegally created materials. The fact that they think alchemy will absorb it tells me they don't think the abuse was as massive or as widespread as some here seem to. Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Annaphera Now, I'd like to know exactly how you are losing so big based on the effects of this exploit. The difference between you and I is that I see the big picture. I don't just think about what I have to do... whether it may be paying 20% more for a t2 ship or not. The fact is we've been playing with a tainted market, and now those who were in stable finances, may now have to seek new alternatives. And let's just put out a worse case scenario... say the isk made was used to build a titan... that titan then obliterated a fleet. Those are losses directly related to the POS exploit. I'm not saying that happened, but things DID happen... to what extent? We don't know... but perhaps CCP should look into some compensation for that extent. Just an idea. I AM looking at the big picture...at the sheer amount of man/hours that would be wasted tracking down every possible effect of the exploit as you seem to wish. That would be needed for the level of compensation you're asking for. It's also completely unrealistic. As for the rest, well, the unofficial motto of Eve has always been 'adapt or die'; too many things could mess with people having "stable finances", and they always make it through.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:31:00 - [1744] Originally by: Scoop de'Woop Thank you for repeating what I said. I am happy we agree in at least something. Quote: This will work quite well. They already do things like this to track down ISK sellers. However, I never said that it was hard. My post was addressing the people that were calling for the reset of 0.0 or the removal of all of the towers in 0.0 or anything similar. And my post was addressing the alternative. Which is a nice complement to yours. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Serenii Astarael	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:33:00 - [1745] o hai logical fallacy People are claiming CCP knew about this four years ago and didn't correct the bug because CCP Alts or friends or BoB (lol, t20) were profiting from it. BUT, it would have made more sense to either fix it discreetly as soon as they found out about or ignore it forever. If they were REALLY ignoring the exploit because their friends benefited from it, they then would not turn around and ban 70 accounts and start detonating POSs. My personal opinion is that CCP just found out about this and feels really angry that they've been had so badly for so long (don't they have an economist who's supposed to watch this sort of thing on staff) that they're overreacting and blowing **** up. I think we all need to calm down a little bit, hunker in, and wait for this to blow over. They're going to discuss it this weekend and we can expect more info then.
Susan Fiona	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:34:00 - [1746] Originally by: Atlas Oracle <blah blah> CCP, you need to communicate, or you'll be seen for what you really are. And that's what, exactly? A bunch of big pink bunny suit wearing morons (possibly when drunk)? "Teh Cheat0rz" (yes, then and now, most likely, what can we do other than vote our discontent with our actual money)? A company filled with horribly incompetent technology implementers? While I find this supremely annoying, it is readily apparent to me that folks like this do not understand the nature of large transactional database cubes. They are horrific for getting data from, and the wrong query can provide massive amounts of erroneous data that is easily misinterpreted (yes, I deal with these daily). Practice your virtual yoga or something, pop a goonie Quaalude, smoke some BoB weed, do something to calm your blood pressure. I don't want bits of exploded head on the forums I'm trying to read.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:35:00 - [1747] Originally by: Serenii Astarael (don't they have an economist who's supposed to watch this sort of thing on staff) they have an economist on staff, but that's not what he does. -- i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:35:00 - [1748] Originally by: Faife so much tears, i love it. i'm printing the angriest ones and putting them up on my wall confirming that this exploit was around since before POSes even existed, and that it was reported before the bug reporting system was in place. also, that people made googles of money and used it to be better than you. yes, objectively better human beings than you. i know, it sounds unfair, but it's true. in fact, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has more isk than you had used this exploit. where were you? we totally cc'ed you on the eve-mail. everyone, cry moar plox Good try. And now what will you do when this attempt at trolling does not work? Pout and start to cry because you lack attention? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Twirrim Notme Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:40:00 - [1749] Edited by: Twirrim Notme on 12/12/2008 21:42:20 Some of you really need to get a sense of perspective on things. I'm not saying "it's just a game", but you have to take first and foremost the approach that you are playing a game. Why do you play games? I play them because I like challenges. I like to learn stuff and new skills. Why do I play online games? I like worlds that change. I like worlds that involve other people and life in all its infinite varieties. I love the impact that has on a game. In real life, little is fair. People cheat, lie, scam, murder and just about anything they think they can get away with. It isn't the multitude that does this, but it is a part of society. In real life I know it has an impact on my financial situation, I know the market is affected by it. Do I kick up a fuss, pout and complain like a 5 year old that "life isn't fair"? No, I grew up out of that. The World doesn't owe me a living, I have to make it for myself. Pouting and complaining like a little kid won't make a difference to my daily life other than to make me seem like an insufferable little twerp. So you come across them in a game, big surprise? Not to me it isn't, surely it isn't to you? Okay sure it's frustrating IF (and that's a big if, so far I've only seen someone of dubious reputation 'claim' they did report it, as if that made it okay for them to exploit) CCP knew about it and did nothing; but I highly doubt that's the case, or what is more probably was it hit some inexperienced staff member who didn't realise the impact, or just plain completely forgot about it. You know what? It happens, even with the most well intentioned people. So it's had a market impact, and it's had a political impact? Same old, same old. Crooks in real life, crooks in games. Boo hoo. They've been dealt with but still people are crying to mummy. So what? The game is still challenging, still playable, still been keeping you going all this time, and in fact still will be challenging, still will be playable, still will keep you going. There are still people to shoot, stuff to build, politics to play, 'roids to mine, or whatever else it is that you enjoy doing. The next few months are going to be some of the most interesting with the market and politics than we've seen in a fair while, just when things seemed a little stagnant and the market was getting boring. I, for one, am looking forward to the in game fallout of this, and bless my fellow podpilots with the ancient chinese curse: May you live in interesting times, as I'm sure you would hate to live in boring times. Stop moaning on a forums about how life is unfair, grow a pair and play the game.
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:42:00 - [1750] Edited by: Demeterus on 12/12/2008 21:43:13 In a way, many posters that are slagging CCP atm are very amusing. They lift their chests high and in umbrage point a quivering finger at CCP and with a voice trembling with dismay they say things like 'You should have realized two years ago that the 1 isk paid to CheaterX at 13.07 eve time was bad and you should have taken action! You are incompetent!' Since I work with websites, high traffic ones, I know the insane amount of data that goes through a website, and I can't even imagine the avalanches worth of data going through an MMO with thousands of players each doing dozens of things every single minute of their online presence. I would like to ask those people - because it would be really useful in my job! - how you propose to separate one isk from the simultaneous transmission one trillion in Jita? Or, more to the point, how would you separate 1 unit of ferrogel from the simultanous generation of 1 million units at other locations? I honestly would like to know because that would solve a lot of latency problems for me. CCP would probably also like to know, because lag would be a thing of the past with that amount of oversight over the data. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:42:00 - [1751] Originally by: Serenii Astarael o hai logical fallacy People are claiming CCP knew about this four years ago and didn't correct the bug because CCP Alts or friends or BoB (lol, t20) were profiting from it. BUT, it would have made more sense to either fix it discreetly as soon as they found out about or ignore it forever. If they were REALLY ignoring the exploit because their friends benefited from it, they then would not turn around and ban 70 accounts and start detonating POSs. My personal opinion is that CCP just found out about this and feels really angry that they've been had so badly for so long (don't they have an economist who's supposed to watch this sort of thing on staff) that they're overreacting and blowing **** up. I think we all need to calm down a little bit, hunker in, and wait for this to blow over. They're going to discuss it this weekend and we can expect more info then. The fallacy is on you. Nobody is saying that all CCP from the janitor to the CEO did it. As ususal, some people inside it abused their power, and when those above them discovered the incident they had no option but to fix it, because it had already became public. They couldn't ignore it anymore. And they needed to put at least some kind of statement about the subject. Now to those that contend the fact that it has been going for years, how exactly do you think that it came to: "the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching" on CCP own words. Do you think anythign that started last week could have such an impact? The truth is, the evidence and CCP's own statements support the disgrunted banned guy's version. No evidence whatsover supports any theory of a short lived bugged. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Triana Gallente Concordia Shipyards	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:45:00 - [1752] Someone did something nasty..... And then much drama happened....... come on people, i know that paranoia is a bit of a core skill to survive in eve, but arent you guys taking it a bit too far, without informations................ -- War is like any other bad relationship. Of course you want out, but at what price? And perhaps more importantly, once you get out, will you be any better off?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:47:00 - [1753] Originally by: Twirrim Notme Some of you really need to get a sense of perspective on things. I'm not saying "it's just a game", but you have to take first and foremost the approach that you are playing a game. Why do you play games? I play them because I like challenges. I like to learn stuff and new skills. Why do I play online games? I like worlds that change. I like worlds that involve other people and life in all its infinite varieties. I love the impact that has on a game. In real life, little is fair. People cheat, lie, scam, murder and just about anything they think they can get away with. It isn't the multitude that does this, but it is a part of society. In real life I know it has an impact on my financial situation, I know the market is affected by it. Do I kick up a fuss, pout and complain like a 5 year old that "life isn't fair"? No, I grew up out of that. The World doesn't owe me a living, I have to make it for myself. Pouting and complaining like a little kid won't make a difference to my daily life other than to make me seem like an insufferable little twerp. So you come across them in a game, big surprise? Not to me it isn't, surely it isn't to you? Okay sure it's frustrating IF (and that's a big if, so far I've only seen someone of dubious reputation 'claim' they did report it, as if that made it okay for them to exploit) CCP knew about it and did nothing; but I highly doubt that's the case, or what is more probably was it hit some inexperienced staff member who didn't realise the impact, or just plain completely forgot about it. You know what? It happens, even with the most well intentioned people. So it's had a market impact, and it's had a political impact? Same old, same old. Crooks in real life, crooks in games. Boo hoo. They've been dealt with but still people are crying to mummy. So what? The game is still challenging, still playable, still been keeping you going all this time, and in fact still will be challenging, still will be playable, still will keep you going. There are still people to shoot, stuff to build, politics to play, 'roids to mine, or whatever else it is that you enjoy doing. The next few months are going to be some of the most interesting with the market and politics than we've seen in a fair while, just when things seemed a little stagnant and the market was getting boring. I, for one, am looking forward to the in game fallout of this, and bless my fellow podpilots with the ancient chinese curse: May you live in interesting times, as I'm sure you would hate to live in boring times. Stop moaning on a forums about how life is unfair, grow a pair and play the game. Nobody is moaning about how life is unfair. Well, ok, maybe you are. We, on the other hand, are demanding that the people who cheated receive the adequated punishment, in the same way people in the really unfair real life demand other things like salary raises, punishment for criminals, etc. As I said before, the fact that life (or about anything else) isn't 100% fair is no justification to abandon the pursuit of fairness. And just as a side note saying "It is not a game" to justify innaction is a fallacy and it is getting old. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:48:00 - [1754] Edited by: Faife on 12/12/2008 21:48:47 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Good try. And now what will you do when this attempt at trolling does not work? Pout and start to cry because you lack attention? MOAR! EDIT: my default printer font is apparently ape-caca at top there -- i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:49:00 - [1755] Originally by: Demeterus In a way, many posters that are slagging CCP atm are very amusing. They lift their chests high and in umbrage point a quivering finger at CCP and with a voice trembling with dismay they say things like 'You should have realized two years ago that the 1 isk paid to CheaterX at 13.07 eve time was bad and you should have taken action! You are incompetent!' Since I work with websites, high traffic ones, I know the insane amount of data that goes through a website, and I can't even imagine the avalanches worth of data going through an MMO with thousands of players each doing dozens of things every single minute of their online presence. I would like to ask those people - because it would be really useful in my job! - how you propose to separate one isk from the simultaneous transmission one trillion in Jita? Or, more to the point, how would you separate 1 unit of ferrogel from the simultanous generation of 1 million units at other locations? I honestly would like to know because that would solve a lot of latency problems for me. CCP would probably also like to know, because lag would be a thing of the past with that amount of oversight over the data. If you don`t know how to implement a simple algorithm to do such a job, know that there are many who do. Understand that the fact that you don`t know something is not, in any way, a proof that such thing is impossible or even difficult. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:49:00 - [1756] Originally by: Twirrim Notme Edited by: Twirrim Notme on 12/12/2008 21:42:20 Some of you really need to get a sense of perspective on things. I'm not saying "it's just a game", but you have to take first and foremost the approach that you are playing a game. Why do you play games? I play them because I like challenges. I like to learn stuff and new skills. Why do I play online games? I like worlds that change. I like worlds that involve other people and life in all its infinite varieties. I love the impact that has on a game. In real life, little is fair. People cheat, lie, scam, murder and just about anything they think they can get away with. It isn't the multitude that does this, but it is a part of society. In real life I know it has an impact on my financial situation, I know the market is affected by it. Do I kick up a fuss, pout and complain like a 5 year old that "life isn't fair"? No, I grew up out of that. The World doesn't owe me a living, I have to make it for myself. Pouting and complaining like a little kid won't make a difference to my daily life other than to make me seem like an insufferable little twerp. So you come across them in a game, big surprise? Not to me it isn't, surely it isn't to you? Okay sure it's frustrating IF (and that's a big if, so far I've only seen someone of dubious reputation 'claim' they did report it, as if that made it okay for them to exploit) CCP knew about it and did nothing; but I highly doubt that's the case, or what is more probably was it hit some inexperienced staff member who didn't realise the impact, or just plain completely forgot about it. You know what? It happens, even with the most well intentioned people. So it's had a market impact, and it's had a political impact? Same old, same old. Crooks in real life, crooks in games. Boo hoo. They've been dealt with but still people are crying to mummy. So what? The game is still challenging, still playable, still been keeping you going all this time, and in fact still will be challenging, still will be playable, still will keep you going. There are still people to shoot, stuff to build, politics to play, 'roids to mine, or whatever else it is that you enjoy doing. The next few months are going to be some of the most interesting with the market and politics than we've seen in a fair while, just when things seemed a little stagnant and the market was getting boring. I, for one, am looking forward to the in game fallout of this, and bless my fellow podpilots with the ancient chinese curse: May you live in interesting times, as I'm sure you would hate to live in boring times. Stop moaning on a forums about how life is unfair, grow a pair and play the game. thats all fine... the problem here is the possibility of 1) the involvement of ccp-staff, making the game different (easier to compete) for some players, 2) the possibility that these same players (who got the easier road) gets (by ccp) the opportunity to take our real money (we'd pay anyway, but would've prefered to do it to a non-"cheater" perhaps), 3) agreed - we play for challenges/fun - but the challenge is taken away but things like this (as well as the fun ofcourse), 4) we have nothing against crooks - but would you continue to pay a crook your real money when/if you'd find out (to do nothing, mind you)
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:50:00 - [1757] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 21:50:01 Originally by: Faife Edited by: Faife on 12/12/2008 21:48:47 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Good try. And now what will you do when this attempt at trolling does not work? Pout and start to cry because you lack attention? MOAR! Pretty, ain't I? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:51:00 - [1758] Originally by: Triana Someone did something nasty..... And then much drama happened....... come on people, i know that paranoia is a bit of a core skill to survive in eve, but arent you guys taking it a bit too far, without informations................ The lack of information is nobody else's fault but ccp's... In the absence of official information, whatever comes fills the void. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:53:00 - [1759] Originally by: Faife cry moar plox What's "moar plox"? Sorry, English is my first language... ------------------------------------------- 1) Dell XPS M1710 (3Gig, nVidia GeForce Go 7900 GS, Vista Business SP1, display res 1920x1200, DX 10) 2) AMD/64 (3200+) on Asus AN8SLI32 w/3Gig, nVidia Ge
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:55:00 - [1760] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Demeterus In a way, many posters that are slagging CCP atm are very amusing. They lift their chests high and in umbrage point a quivering finger at CCP and with a voice trembling with dismay they say things like 'You should have realized two years ago that the 1 isk paid to CheaterX at 13.07 eve time was bad and you should have taken action! You are incompetent!' Since I work with websites, high traffic ones, I know the insane amount of data that goes through a website, and I can't even imagine the avalanches worth of data going through an MMO with thousands of players each doing dozens of things every single minute of their online presence. I would like to ask those people - because it would be really useful in my job! - how you propose to separate one isk from the simultaneous transmission one trillion in Jita? Or, more to the point, how would you separate 1 unit of ferrogel from the simultanous generation of 1 million units at other locations? I honestly would like to know because that would solve a lot of latency problems for me. CCP would probably also like to know, because lag would be a thing of the past with that amount of oversight over the data. If you don`t know how to implement a simple algorithm to do such a job, know that there are many who do. Understand that the fact that you don`t know something is not, in any way, a proof that such thing is impossible or even difficult. Right.... You don't work with much related to the internet, do you... Honestly, if you have such an algorithm. Share it with the world. You'd be rich, in real life. Governments all over the world would certainly take a keen interest since their attempts at datamining - which we are talking about here - have failed miserably. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?

Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:58:00 - [1761] Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Originally by: Salinity Now recieves receives Originally by: Salinity Now allready already Originally by: Salinity Now loose lose You spell like a 5 year old. So, we shall assume you also think like one, thus your post is ignored. Ah, the spelling Gestapo has arrived. *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
MinerGod	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:59:00 - [1762] POS-sible solution: Seed more moons, even Empire ones and let them be mined. As for the exploit. Take hrrr down to the nut.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:05:00 - [1763] Originally by: Serenii Astarael o hai logical fallacy People are claiming CCP knew about this four years ago and didn't correct the bug because CCP Alts or friends or BoB (lol, t20) were profiting from it. BUT, it would have made more sense to either fix it discreetly as soon as they found out about or ignore it forever. If they were REALLY ignoring the exploit because their friends benefited from it, they then would not turn around and ban 70 accounts and start detonating POSs. My personal opinion is that CCP just found out about this and feels really angry that they've been had so badly for so long (don't they have an economist who's supposed to watch this sort of thing on staff) that they're overreacting and blowing **** up. I think we all need to calm down a little bit, hunker in, and wait for this to blow over. They're going to discuss it this weekend and we can expect more info then. All it takes is for one GM, the one who receives the petition, to close it and pretend it never existed. All it takes is for the GM or GMs with friends exploiting this to keep an eye out on the petition queue and either intercept/close said petitions, or warn their friends that the cat is out of the bag and it's time to switch the POS over to legitimate reactions. At no point does "CCP" as a complete entity have to be involved in any cover up. All it takes is a corrupt GM or three.
WUMMELE	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:05:00 - [1764] Hmm after playing for a few years now it seems there are more leaks than the CIA and MI5 combined,I believe if CCP ask nicely maybe Mr Mandelson will be able to put a nice spin on the whole thing so it disappears so fast nobody realised it was there to complain about.True its only a game but hey I could afford all the best equipment and have a top alliance in next to no time without all this bother of logging on and paying to play for hours.More than likely the truth will never been known as it could cause embarassment and who knows what unsavory items may be unearthed by an in-depth investigation.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:06:00 - [1765] Originally by: Demeterus Right.... You don't work with much related to the internet, do you... Honestly, if you have such an algorithm. Share it with the world. You'd be rich, in real life. Governments all over the world would certainly take a keen interest since their attempts at datamining - which we are talking about here - have failed miserably. I happen to work exactly with Data Mining among other areas, yes. Considering all data is available and the types of possible transactions are considerably more restrict than in the real world the heuristics of such an algorithm are extremelly basic. Oh, and governments around the world already use it. The main problems governs have to implement their searchs is lack of reliable information, btw, which is not the case here. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:22:00 - [1766] Edited by: Demeterus on 12/12/2008 22:24:05 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Demeterus Right.... You don't work with much related to the internet, do you... Honestly, if you have such an algorithm. Share it with the world. You'd be rich, in real life. Governments all over the world would certainly take a keen interest since their attempts at datamining - which we are talking about here - have failed miserably. I happen to work exactly with Data Mining among other areas, yes. Considering all data is available and the types of possible transactions are considerably more restrict than in the real world the heuristics of such an algorithm are extremelly basic. Oh, and governments around the world already use it. The main problems governs have to implement their searchs is lack of reliable information, btw, which is not the case here. If you, as you say, worked in the field you would know the concept of false negatives and false positives and their impact on algorithmic design. Then I don't have to define those terms for you. But if you already knew about that, and that it is these two terms that are the chief problems of data mining, then you would not make the statement you made above. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
Ugor Batarr Minmatar Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:23:00 - [1767] I should've invested in aluminium With all the tinfoil-hattery in this thread the prizes must have skyrocketed.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:24:00 - [1768] Originally by: Annaphera I AM looking at the big picture...at the sheer amount of man/hours that would be wasted tracking down every possible effect of the exploit as you seem to wish. That would be needed for the level of compensation you're asking for. It's also completely unrealistic. As for the rest, well, the unofficial motto of Eve has always been 'adapt or die'; too many things could mess with people having "stable finances", and they always make it through. Hehehe... now you are looking TOO big. When did I eve say we should track down every effect of the exploit? You can't find reason to your argument by making up things... that's not allowed. I simply said there WERE effects, and if you don't think their was, then you're an idiot. To expect players to go about like nothing happened after they now know the possibility that the extent of this was "FAR REACHING", is a hard thing to swallow. It would be easier if it was all coated with some compensation to the fact that CCP let us down... again. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Makhan	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:26:00 - [1769] Originally by: Borun Tal Originally by: Faife cry moar plox What's "moar plox"? Sorry, English is my first language... "moar plox" is British-4channer slang for "More please".
pook Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:33:00 - [1770] CCP creates Alchemy- CCP bans 70+ accts. that were exploiting moon mats. Coincidence? I think not. Ppl. have a problem with the rapid response team taking years to actually do something, anything to stop the sploit. All the Insane time spent on Nerfing err Balancing the game seems even more of a farce than it did last week. For Years CCP has worked tirelessly, expending thousands of working hours in an insane attempt to do the impossible, Balance that which can not be balanced. All the while ingoring the bigger problems in the game. News Flash- The World can not be balanced, here or in RL. Things that can be made right like exploits should be dealt with as they rear their ugly heads, not swept under someone's rug. I don't give a rat's ass about ppl making tons of isk. More power to them. It is CCP's responsibility to police these exploits and they have failed to do so cuz they were concerned about the supply of moon mats. This exploit was ignored for quite some time because that was the easy way to go. It masked the failure of game mechanics in regards to T2 building mats. Time to make high sec moons minable?

MeestaPenni Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:38:00 - [1771] Originally by: Makhan Originally by: Borun Tal "moar plox" is British-4channer slang for "More please". ?? And it's rumored they think those of us on this side of the Atlantic speak an odd English?
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:41:00 - [1772] Sort of strange... 59 posts of replies, and unless I've somehow missed a page in there, the only actual response from CCP has essentially been, "Oh my... too many swear words. I deleted a bunch of posts in an attempt to make us not look as poorly managed as we actually are." CSM responses? Unless I missed a few of those (which I really blewdy well hope I did), there were two... only one of which was actually a post, the other merely a one-line response noting that CSM and CCP are going to get together and talk about it. Really, this just shows in itself why it took so long for CCP to do anything about it... they'll go on a big witch hunt, ban a bunch of accounts, tell us the number of the accounts and... really, beyond that, I bet not much - if anything - will be done beyond patching the exploit. I wonder how many CCP employees made a pretty coin off of keeping that bug a secret.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:44:00 - [1773] With people yelling around and screaming for the guilty people to get lynched: Who actually got hurt by that exploit? Certainly not the inventors and t2 bpc builders because they were provided with cheap material to build their stuff. Also not the people who use all the t2 stuff because they had to pay less for it. Then maybe the big alliances in 0.0 who owns all the dys moons and couldn't get the price they would have gotten without the exploit? Well, maybe yes. But they are already insane rich, so it was not really a big loss for them. Maybe those people who fought G/D2/Evoke/MH? Well ... it seems that all the unfair and endless money didn't help those alliances a single bit. Look at the political landscape and see if these alliances are in any way important - if they still exist. Then maybe the pirates in 0.0 were hurt because the t2 fitted ship they killed didn't give expensive loot any more? Maybe, but on the other hand people wouldn't have fitted that much t2 stuff if it would have been still very expensive. So ... who really got hurt and had an actual loss? I don't know it, tell me. On the other hand ... who gained and had a profit? Well, of course first those exploiters. But then almost every person who bought a t2 item profited from cheap prices. The inventors profited also because everyone wanted cheap t2 stuff. The smaller alliances and corps profited because the dysprosium-cartell didn't dictate prices any more. Traders profited because they were able to distribute the cheap stuff all over the world. PvP people were happy because they could afford the good t2 ships now which were to expensive in the past. So, hmm, yes ... almost everyone had some benefit, only few were at a loss. Does that justify the exploiting? No. But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:50:00 - [1774] Originally by: Gnulpie But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think. may he please shut op for he is clueless
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:50:00 - [1775] Originally by: Demeterus [ If you, as you say, worked in the field you would know the concept of false negatives and false positives and their impact on algorithmic design. Then I don't have to define those terms for you. But if you already knew about that, and that it is these two terms that are the chief problems of data mining, then you would not make the statement you made above. I obviouslly understand false positives and false negatives. As long as you make a good algorith, you will be able to restrict your findings to an universe small enough to be able to analyse any dubious case in more detail. Is that fail safe? No. Are judgements in the real world failsafe? No. Is it possible that some people escape and even some innocent people pay for what they haven't done? Yes. Is there any punishment method in the real or virtual world that is different from what I just stated? No. What you can do is minimize the casualities. The alternative is to let a LOT of guilty people to run free, which is considered more nocive anywhere in the real world, and should be also considered more nocive here. Those that are unfairly punished can always appeal. And although there would be guilty people who would evade the punishment those would be in far smaller numbers than if you don't do anything about itm which seems to be your suggestion. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:04:00 - [1776] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 23:04:22 Originally by: Gnulpie With people yelling around and screaming for the guilty people to get lynched: Who actually got hurt by that exploit? Certainly not the inventors and t2 bpc builders because they were provided with cheap material to build their stuff. A lot of people. Money was drained from the market to these people and used to support their activities. Just to list a few: - Honest T2 material producer - T2 inventors who had to compete with T2 ships built by those guys almost for free - Honest alliances who fought against others financed by these guys - Traders, who had to compete with infinite amounts of money - People who pay their accounts subscription with ISK - Mission runners who had to pay absurd prices for Deadspace modules due to artificially high demand Quote: Also not the people who use all the t2 stuff because they had to pay less for it. Those are the only exception. But then again, those people may be included in one of the last 6 cathegories. Quote: Maybe those people who fought G/D2/Evoke/MH? Well ... it seems that all the unfair and endless money didn't help those alliances a single bit. Look at the political landscape and see if these alliances are in any way important - if they still exist. Unfair advantages are not a guarantee of success, but they certainly help. See BoB for reference. Quote: On the other hand ... who gained and had a profit? Well, of course first those exploiters. But then almost every person who bought a t2 item profited from cheap prices. The inventors profited also because everyone wanted cheap t2 stuff. The smaller alliances and corps profited because the dysprosium-cartell didn't dictate prices any more. Traders profited because they were able to distribute the cheap stuff all over the world. PvP people were happy because they could afford the good t2 ships now which were to expensive in the past. Inventors didn't profit on it as explained above. And yes, people could buy T2 ships cheaper, but then again, if T2 materials were a problem earlier, without those guys, ccp would have introduced alternative ways to get them, as they are trying to do now. The effect these exploits had on T2 ships' prices can be easily replicated in a myriad of ways by ccp, without the need of vampires sucking the money from everybody and using them to their own ends... Quote: So, hmm, yes ... almost everyone had some benefit, only few were at a loss. Does that justify the exploiting? No. But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think. A false conclusion based in misconceptions. The damage was considerable, as CCP themselves admited. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Kalib Stark Silicon Avalanche	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:06:00 - [1777] Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. ╚KS╝
Billy Lightyear	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:15:00 - [1778] Originally by: Gnulpie With people yelling around and screaming for the guilty people to get lynched: Who actually got hurt by that exploit? Certainly not the inventors and t2 bpc builders because they were provided with cheap material to build their stuff. Also not the people who use all the t2 stuff because they had to pay less for it. Then maybe the big alliances in 0.0 who owns all the dys moons and couldn't get the price they would have gotten without the exploit? Well, maybe yes. But they are already insane rich, so it was not really a big loss for them. Maybe those people who fought G/D2/Evoke/MH? Well ... it seems that all the unfair and endless money didn't help those alliances a single bit. Look at the political landscape and see if these alliances are in any way important - if they still exist. Then maybe the pirates in 0.0 were hurt because the t2 fitted ship they killed didn't give expensive loot any more? Maybe, but on the other hand people wouldn't have fitted that much t2 stuff if it would have been still very expensive. So ... who really got hurt and had an actual loss? I don't know it, tell me. On the other hand ... who gained and had a profit? Well, of course first those exploiters. But then almost every person who bought a t2 item profited from cheap prices. The inventors profited also because everyone wanted cheap t2 stuff. The smaller alliances and corps profited because the dysprosium-cartell didn't dictate prices any more. Traders profited because they were able to distribute the cheap stuff all over the world. PvP people were happy because they could afford the good t2 ships now which were to expensive in the past. So, hmm, yes ... almost everyone had some benefit, only few were at a loss. Does that justify the exploiting? No. But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think. A D2 alt i bet! (oops... evoke.. heh)
Zorash Xanten	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:19:00 - [1779] Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. ^^ This
Billy Lightyear	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:19:00 - [1780] Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. Yep, CCP ****ed up, but you really think they give a siht about us foreigners? If Evoke were icelanders.. well, your guess is as good as mine

Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:21:00 - [1781] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 23:04:22 - T2 inventors who had to compete with T2 ships built by those guys almost for free Well, how can I put this, imo T2 inventors compete with other T2 inventors only, not with T2 BPO holders. T2 inventors set the price for T2 items namely. Now I think of it, in fact T2 BPO holder that just bought stuff at Jita to be used up in their production have been hit harder than T2 inventors, simply because T2 inventors need more advanced components to build their items. If those components were cheaper than they would have been without this exploit, T2 inventors have gotten more discount. 8) *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:24:00 - [1782] Originally by: Gunner Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/12/2008 23:04:22 - T2 inventors who had to compete with T2 ships built by those guys almost for free Well, how can I put this, imo T2 inventors compete with other T2 inventors only, not with T2 BPO holders. T2 inventors set the price for T2 items namely. Now I think of it, in fact T2 BPO holder that just bought stuff at Jita to be used up in their production have been hit harder than T2 inventors, simply because T2 inventors need more advanced components to build their items. If those components were cheaper than they would have been without this exploit, T2 inventors have gotten more discount. 8) are you this stupid or do you only pretend to be?
Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:28:00 - [1783] Proof me false *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
SemiCharmed Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:36:00 - [1784] Originally by: Carter VanSandt Originally by: SemiCharmed And eve would be a hell of alot more interesting and i would sure as hell take more pride in every kill i get knowing it will make a huge impact on the person that just lost his ship with very little but expencive gear on the market... ..... You get off on the misery of others? Thats pretty far on the ***ed up ladder dude. Yeah... but totally worth it :p -------------------------------------------- Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires.**
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.12 23:55:00 - [1785] Originally by: Billy Lightyear Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. Yep, CCP ****ed up, but you really think they give a siht about us foreigners? If Evoke were icelanders.. well, your guess is as good as mine CCP are outright Icelandists? I had no idea... But seriously, cries of "foul!" always seem to be accompanied by cries of "favoritism!" in EVE, and root of the problem for those who accuse CCP of playing favorites (often those who are either guilty of a crime or are negatively impacted by something like this) almost never rests with the player base - it's because CCP is viciously corrupt and if you didn't know that, you need your head examined. I think they way they've handled killing off GT is suspect, and I don't think they have as tight a hold on thier code as most people would assume they do, but if an operation was set up explicitly to exploit game mechanics, I don't think that has anything to do with RL nationality. Now that Evoke has publicly shamed those involved in this and confirmed that the bans were deserved, the argument that CCP didn't need to act has lost a lot of leverage - that is, if you believe Evoke that the alliance was unaware of these activities.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:00:00 - [1786] Originally by: Gnulpie With people yelling around and screaming for the guilty people to get lynched: Who actually got hurt by that exploit? Certainly not the inventors and t2 bpc builders because they were provided with cheap material to build their stuff. Also not the people who use all the t2 stuff because they had to pay less for it. Then maybe the big alliances in 0.0 who owns all the dys moons and couldn't get the price they would have gotten without the exploit? Well, maybe yes. But they are already insane rich, so it was not really a big loss for them. Maybe those people who fought G/D2/Evoke/MH? Well ... it seems that all the unfair and endless money didn't help those alliances a single bit. Look at the political landscape and see if these alliances are in any way important - if they still exist. Then maybe the pirates in 0.0 were hurt because the t2 fitted ship they killed didn't give expensive loot any more? Maybe, but on the other hand people wouldn't have fitted that much t2 stuff if it would have been still very expensive. So ... who really got hurt and had an actual loss? I don't know it, tell me. On the other hand ... who gained and had a profit? Well, of course first those exploiters. But then almost every person who bought a t2 item profited from cheap prices. The inventors profited also because everyone wanted cheap t2 stuff. The smaller alliances and corps profited because the dysprosium-cartell didn't dictate prices any more. Traders profited because they were able to distribute the cheap stuff all over the world. PvP people were happy because they could afford the good t2 ships now which were to expensive in the past. So, hmm, yes ... almost everyone had some benefit, only few were at a loss. Does that justify the exploiting? No. But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think. Oh my, another guy trying to tell that we all gained from this from cheap T2 items... We earned our money to pay for those items in an honest way. You can in no way whatsoever compare this to people / organisations who got stuff for free. When everyone get something cheaper, it's status quo, noone gained a thing (in a competetive game like EVE). I got cheaper T2 items, but so did my enemy....Got the point, or do I have to spell it out even more?
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:10:00 - [1787] Quote: You can in no way whatsoever compare this to people / organisations who got stuff for free. ...and then got banned and assets removed. =====
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:12:00 - [1788] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 00:12:37 Originally by: Gunner Well, how can I put this, imo T2 inventors compete with other T2 inventors only, not with T2 BPO holders. T2 inventors set the price for T2 items namely. Now I think of it, in fact T2 BPO holder that just bought stuff at Jita to be used up in their production have been hit harder than T2 inventors, simply because T2 inventors need more advanced components to build their items. If those components were cheaper than they would have been without this exploit, T2 inventors have gotten more discount. 8) You can produce far more T2 itens by invention than by bpos, and if your T2 materials are free the cost of both are very similar, what makes invention the superior alternative. If you have infinite raw materials, selling T2 is a good way to diversify your activities, to both avoid detection and oversupply. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:14:00 - [1789] DAMN,......!!1 Even with the bad english,...this guy makes complete scence,..and i do concure with and agree with him. His views are a bit different from mine but they do make scence. I wrote earlier to keep your enemies close as to watch them,...i have now reconsidered my position after reading all that has been said,...... My friend,....YOU are right,...they and all that are connected with them,...shold be banned totally surely and forever. Originally by: Innocent II Originally by: Inmaculada Divinity The mass banning was a knee jerk reaction and badly implemented. Lets just look; This has been going on for 4 years, another 4 weeks won't make much of a difference. In those 4 weeks, CCP could have looked at the economy, the impact, the effect of closing this and analyzed the consequences. We may now well be faced with a market and production collapse. As someone mentioned previously in RL governments have nationalised banks and other financial institutions - this might need to be a possibility here. If the sudden flow of these resources is withdrawn it will cause chaos. There needs to be a regulated and steady decrease until the player base is able to fill the void the mass ban has created. Excuse my English, but I must speak on this. I support mass banning for all the people. While CCP doing it, they ban you as well since you are posting alt, I look right behind your words at you, and it sounds like you are helping them. No damage serious enough for the cheaters, no penalty big enough for the cheaters. I have played other games the cheaters took over. Its like FPS when they can be invisible and get unlimited ammo and biggest guns and shoot you through walls. Soon everyone is glitching and using hacks just to survive. Then people are like "screw this, waste of time". Game is wrecked and guilds all die from it. TBH I even support banning players who were not cheaters directly but benefited from this. The reason is the only true penalty in MMO is to destroy the group of people. Accounts bought and sold. To get at problem, you must hurt the real people and punish, and inspire fear of retaliation so future cheaters noticed this. This means hurting not just cheaters, but also crush their friends. I support full absolute ruthlessness that would make Joseph Stalin cringe in fear. CCP and eve is better off with these people sent to biomass, all of them, both direct and indirect people. CCP is God in EvE, no need for reasons, no need for excuses. This is not a court and judges and lawyers. No reasons needed, CCP can ban without questions. This account is not paid up and will end. Message sent CCP. Will be activated ONLY when answers given. I want them dead and gone from EvE. Your choice, cheaters who pay with stolen isk to buy GTC, or paying customer who gives you money. Your choice CCP. Thats it.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:15:00 - [1790] Bull**** we all benefitted from it. People have spent countless working hard to compete. People had fun doing it now they find out it was all pointless. They then lose all that hard work when uber fleets of ships turn up. They defeat the first few fleets but the enemy has an unlimited rapid supply. Stop trying to justify being a cheating bastard. People have no respect for any achievement they made legitmately. Even the honest players in the suspect alliances have lost out. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig

Hevymetal Caldari POT Corp	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:19:00 - [1791] Well here we go this thread has just been slashdotted. http://games.slashdot.org/games/08/12/12/0949222.shtml BANG!! BANG!! BANG!! STOP OR I'LL SHOOT!!!
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:21:00 - [1792] Edited by: Baske on 13/12/2008 00:21:12 Originally by: Barbara Nichole Quote: You can in no way whatsoever compare this to people / organisations who got stuff for free. ...and then got banned and assets removed. Their "organisations" still still lives....everyone knows, though proof is lacking. With organisations, I think of all the parties gaining ground over others from this exploit. btw, it was me who wrote what you quoted :)
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:22:00 - [1793] Originally by: Zorash Xanten Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. ^^ This ^^ Indeed. BTW, to all those crying that everyone benefited as a result of this bug (i.e. lower t2 prices); you do realize that this has removed a significant amount of demand from the market which effects every single person who has ever built a legit t2 item (t2 bpo or no) in the past 4 years... -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.13 00:23:00 - [1794] I want to make a point here,....Please read. The people that are involved here are spazers,...hackers,..people that do not have anything better to do but looko for these exploits. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that these people are the ones that are selling isk online, clearly something that CCP definately frowns on, and is illegal by the EULA. if these people are soo smart as to pull this off for as long as they did,..then a simple ban of there account is not and i repete NOT going to stop them in there activities,......In EVE or anywhere else for that matter. Then will simply make another account, skill it up and find another exploit to start making ISK again,...END OF STORY! Ive seen it happen far too many times,....It will happen,..... i dont ahve a solution for you CCP,....banning them is a good idea,...jsut to apeese your user base,.....I know it would make me feel a bit better seeing that these jurks are gone but,......keeping an eye on them would probably be a better idea in the long run,...being able to track there movements,.... I know that the second option is NOT a very popular suggestion,....but it might be a more wise and or secure thing to do,... Im jsut glad im not in your shoes on this one CCP,... SUGGESTION: offer rewards to those who turn in those who hack,...spaz and cheat,...and make the rewards BIG!
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:00:00 - [1795] Originally by: Barbara Nichole Quote: You can in no way whatsoever compare this to people / organisations who got stuff for free. ...and then got banned and assets removed. No, 70 sacrificial alts got the banstick. Well, and a few members of Ev0ke (moon mining champions!) who were too... something... to cover their tracks. Many cheaters got away with it by re-configuring their POSes before the audit. The smarter ones have squirreled away the proceeds on alts, bought new mains, and are simply laughing at the chaos. If I were a CCP employee passionate about my creation I'd be ****ed about this.
Airatt	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:01:00 - [1796] Possible penalty.. Identify and flag the offenders.... Then a Universal wardec on the guilty. Then let us all punish the offenders.....
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:06:00 - [1797] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Annaphera I AM looking at the big picture...at the sheer amount of man/hours that would be wasted tracking down every possible effect of the exploit as you seem to wish. That would be needed for the level of compensation you're asking for. It's also completely unrealistic. As for the rest, well, the unofficial motto of Eve has always been 'adapt or die'; too many things could mess with people having "stable finances", and they always make it through. Hehehe... now you are looking TOO big. When did I eve say we should track down every effect of the exploit? You can't find reason to your argument by making up things... that's not allowed. I simply said there WERE effects, and if you don't think their was, then you're an idiot. To expect players to go about like nothing happened after they now know the possibility that the extent of this was "FAR REACHING", is a hard thing to swallow. It would be easier if it was all coated with some compensation to the fact that CCP let us down... again. You didn't, did you? How about... Quote: And let's just put out a worse case scenario... say the isk made was used to build a titan... that titan then obliterated a fleet. Those are losses directly related to the POS exploit. I'm not saying that happened, but things DID happen... to what extent? We don't know... but perhaps CCP should look into some compensation for that extent. You seem to be asking them to go pretty deep, or just give everyone some blanket compensation for something that may not have affected everyone, which is a bit absurd. To target compensation, they'd have to do exactly what I suggested. How deep should they go? Given how messy it would get to figure out who exactly was really 'wronged' by this, the better option is just to punish those who benefited unfairly, then let it go. We all got slightly cheaper T2 than perhaps we should have...sounds like we've already been compensated. CCP didn't let anyone down on this...an exploit was found and those who were/are taking advantage are being rooted out and banned. Until there is some proof offered to the contrary, I can't see this one have existed long unless it was not widely abused. I certainly don't see how it could have been kept so completely a secret for four years - it just strains the bounds of credulity. In the end, my guess is that the actual damage is very minimal.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:07:00 - [1798] Originally by: Mari Katarin No, 70 sacrificial alts got the banstick. Well, and a few members of Ev0ke (moon mining champions!) who were too... something... to cover their tracks. Many cheaters got away with it by re-configuring their POSes before the audit. The smarter ones have squirreled away the proceeds on alts, bought new mains, and are simply laughing at the chaos. Those 70 were only the initial bans. CCP is currently investigating. And they sure won't look at the currently running data, so covering your tracks now is too late. Database backups are not only there for safety purposes. Tracking down the ISK and material trails will take a while. I'd say we'll see plenty people receiving the banstick over this in the next couple weeks, the longer and deeper CCP digs. There is no running away now. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Amarkon	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:11:00 - [1799] All I can say is: HA-HA. 70 accounts/players, buh bye cheaters. I wish they'd post your characters names and pictures like the police do when they arrest people who pay for sex. L-o-o-o-o-osers.
Uhr Zylex Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Blade.	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:15:00 - [1800] I'm looking forward to the ridiculously long and detailed blog post CCP is working on right now, which will shed light on the whole matter. A long list of bans..yum! Until then I'm still not gonna log on my characters, this is just silly. The market is collapsing, people have profited obscenely from the panic. Everything is just broken. Sigh.

oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:24:00 - [1801] Originally by: Gnulpie With people yelling around and screaming for the guilty people to get lynched: Who actually got hurt by that exploit? Certainly not the inventors and t2 bpc builders because they were provided with cheap material to build their stuff. Also not the people who use all the t2 stuff because they had to pay less for it. Then maybe the big alliances in 0.0 who owns all the dys moons and couldn't get the price they would have gotten without the exploit? Well, maybe yes. But they are already insane rich, so it was not really a big loss for them. Maybe those people who fought G/D2/Evoke/MH? Well ... it seems that all the unfair and endless money didn't help those alliances a single bit. Look at the political landscape and see if these alliances are in any way important - if they still exist. Then maybe the pirates in 0.0 were hurt because the t2 fitted ship they killed didn't give expensive loot any more? Maybe, but on the other hand people wouldn't have fitted that much t2 stuff if it would have been still very expensive. So ... who really got hurt and had an actual loss? I don't know it, tell me. On the other hand ... who gained and had a profit? Well, of course first those exploiters. But then almost every person who bought a t2 item profited from cheap prices. The inventors profited also because everyone wanted cheap t2 stuff. The smaller alliances and corps profited because the dysprosium-cartell didn't dictate prices any more. Traders profited because they were able to distribute the cheap stuff all over the world. PvP people were happy because they could afford the good t2 ships now which were to expensive in the past. So, hmm, yes ... almost everyone had some benefit, only few were at a loss. Does that justify the exploiting? No. But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think. Kill this guy. Then kill his parents to ensure that his failed genetic make-up can never be replicated.
Adelphie R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:30:00 - [1802] Edited by: Adelphie on 13/12/2008 01:30:55 To all those people saying that nobody got hurt from this I call bull**. Up until a few weeks ago I was 2nd in command of the Vanguard Alliance who lived in Venal. We were fighting one of the alliances who have admitted their part in this exploit as they tried to oust us from our station system. Skill wise I would say it was a fairly even fight, however due to the presence of multiple supercaps permanently camping we struggled to force them out, and morale got pretty low. On face value I had props to an alliance whose shortcomings in pvp skill were overcome by their ability to throw isk at a problem. Now we find out where (some of) this isk has come from and it is not due to the players skill whatsoever. We ended up getting soundly beaten, countless ships destroyed for trying to defend our space. The defeat left some ill feeling in the alliance which led to several corps pulling out, myself included. So it is not so much that cheaters prospered that **es me off, it's that honest, hardworking players have lost not only isk, but alliances and friendships by trying to play the game in the way that it was meant to be played.
Madman Murry	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:31:00 - [1803] Well, if this "exploit" was unknown to CCP, and was being taken advantage of, who cares? CCP shafts us in so many different ways in EVE, take advantage of the few Game Mechanics (exploits) that you can, while you still can. Once it's announced as an exploit, then it should be a Ban-able offense. Until then, like the rest of EVE it's a bloody free-for-all. If CCP knows that something is wrong and doesn't bother to fix it, it's their own fault.
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:32:00 - [1804] Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. Fallacy - namely unsupported assertion - in the assumption that there were "huge piles" of rare minerals to be uncovered. First, you are assuming that the abuse was massive and widespread, which has yet to be supported by anything but one post on a third-party forum by someone with every reason to exaggerate. Second, you assume that the exploiters were dumb enough to stockpile massive quantities of said materials, which would make them easier to catch and create the possibility of flooding the market and driving the prices down - something no one would think makes sense. Fallacy - false dichotomy - in saying that either CCP did a moon material analysis that would have uncovered piles of duped materials, or didn't do one at all. Remember, CCP knows exactly how many moons are out there that have the rare materials, and also knows the prices commanded by those materials. Those two bits of information, combined with a check on how many of those high-end moons have PoS's, would give them enough information to determine that they should find a way to raise the supply of, or bring down the demand on, high-end moon materials. Trying to track every bit of those high-end moon materials would have uncovered the extra, but would also have been an inefficient use of manpower under any circumstance. Remember, please, that materials don't have to be used immediately, so just looking at moon outputs and created T2 components wouldn't work - the numbers would be assumed to not match exactly. If the number of exploiters was small, or moderate and intelligent, then only a bit-for-bit accounting would uncover anything. Finally, fallacy - question-begging - in assuming that the only possible outcomes support your position, and using fallacies to get there. Logic is only useful if you follow the rules.
GetergdeKaasboer	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:37:00 - [1805] Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. Unfortunately I have to agree. I would think to introduce alchemy they HAD to do some due diligence on market impact. Missing trillions of isks in high ends is either one heck of a whoopsie or another example of it's not a problem until a PLAYER breaks the issue to the community. I will not cite a bpo problem a while back. Economic impact would be... 1) very very very cheap t2 ships/mods if they used invention to maximize production, effectivly robbing BPO owners and other inventors of market share, forget that excess could be sold for isks at inflated prices (or do ppl forget FREE is cheaper than say $32k for ferrogel) 2) time code conversion of ill gotten gains into real money, which thinking about it makes macrominers look like amatuers 3) supply of 1) above to key groups would impact the political geography of eve 4) un-deserved isks in that quantity lead to purchases of toys, bpos etc at effectivly "price is not a consideration" values,,, they printed their own isks, resulting in inflation of market values of key coveted items 5) finally, NOT being found out earlier (given the detailed work alchemy should have entailed from CCP devs), can indicate ccp fully intended for this cheat to deflate the true value of items in the game to expand the use of T2 in general
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:37:00 - [1806] Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 01:42:22 Seems like a lot of people in this thread are into invention..... Invention of molehill's into mountains, that is! This is what seems to be a minor market hiccup... Nothing bigger than that... T2 items will fluctuate for a while, and then settle to a new level. Wow.... Big deal! It also seems that a lot of people are into blaming the victim (CCP) for the crime... You are about as ridiculous as the people who blame scantily clad girls when they've been assaulted I'm a pretty average player, and nothing about this really affected my game: 1. Ships I shot blew up 2. Ships that shot me blew me up 3. Items I invented/produced sold at a profit/loss as I deserved 4. Items bought cost me ISK 5. Missions/ratting earned me ISK 6. I had fun CCP will punish the guilty as they deserve, but none of the people in this thread has had their gameplay affected to any even remotely significant degree, no matter what claims they invent! I guess some people just like to blame others.... even over something as unimportant as an internet spaceship game... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:39:00 - [1807] Edited by: oilio on 13/12/2008 01:40:13 Originally by: Annaphera Logic is only useful if you follow the rules. OK... and IF it is true that this exploit has been going on for FOUR YEARS... and IF it is true that a number of tickets were raised asking for clarificaition over the last FOUR YEARS.. (maybe none of that is true)... but IF it is true, what does that say about CCP? Without beating-about-the-bush too much, I would say that IF the above criteria are true, it is further proof that CCP are utterly slack and concerned only with the issue of taking money off people every month. Pardon me if I seem cynical, but I like to think that I simply reflect the near criminal cynicism of the company that are concerned primarily with the transfer of money from player accounts to CCP's corporate accounts. Roll-on 22nd December. That's when my final subscription expires.
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:40:00 - [1808] Originally by: Adelphie Edited by: Adelphie on 13/12/2008 01:30:55 To all those people saying that nobody got hurt from this I call bull**. Up until a few weeks ago I was 2nd in command of the Vanguard Alliance who lived in Venal. We were fighting one of the alliances who have admitted their part in this exploit as they tried to oust us from our station system. Skill wise I would say it was a fairly even fight, however due to the presence of multiple supercaps permanently camping we struggled to force them out, and morale got pretty low. On face value I had props to an alliance whose shortcomings in pvp skill were overcome by their ability to throw isk at a problem. Now we find out where (some of) this isk has come from and it is not due to the players skill whatsoever. We ended up getting soundly beaten, countless ships destroyed for trying to defend our space. The defeat left some ill feeling in the alliance which led to several corps pulling out, myself included. So it is not so much that cheaters prospered that **es me off, it's that honest, hardworking players have lost not only isk, but alliances and friendships by trying to play the game in the way that it was meant to be played. No need to hide the name! Name and Shame EVOKE/G used this exploit 3 years long so they can gather a massiv Capital fleet for their Alliance size, including Motherships and multiple Titans. They also bought countless T2 BP to get incredible rich, duo to not haveing to worry about the moonmaterial at all. Terminate all their assets! DOWN WITH CHEATER ! DOWN WITH EVOKE!
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:41:00 - [1809] Originally by: Kerfira Seems like a lot of people in this thread are into invention..... Invention of molehill's into mountains, that is! This is what seems to be a minor market hiccup... Nothing bigger than that... T2 items will fluctuate for a while, and then settle to a new level. Wow.... Big deal! Uh, yeah, you might want to check the price history graphs a week or two from now when things stabilize somewhat.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:46:00 - [1810] Originally by: Gamer4liff Uh, yeah, you might want to check the price history graphs a week or two from now when things stabilize somewhat. Ehhh, even if T2 goes up 2x or 3x time its STILL not a big deal... In fact T2 is too cheap as it is. If T2 prices goes up (significantly), maybe T1 names items will go up too. This'll bring variety back in the game. Variety is good. Get a sense of perspective... And don't take an internet spaceship game so seriously... Have fun instead! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:49:00 - [1811] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar I heard a rumour that we are going to rollback to 4 years ago. Confirmation? Confirming this. I heard that from reliable source. Alas those sources demanded anonymity (NDA stuff) so I can't tell you who it is. When is the rollback? And what happens to people who haven't been subscribed that long? :( Tomorrow DT, you better give me your stuff now for safekeeping. Won't you be rollbacked too???
Kickin it	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:56:00 - [1812] All I can say is "wow"! A tremendous amount of very questionable behavior by CCP, BOB, and others. As a newer player, all I can say - follow the money, or in some cases ISK = RL money. With all the implied cheating and possible GM assistance, who's watching the watchers? Bottom line will always be economics, could a GM be bribed with real money? (probably) Would CCP coverup and hide anything that makes them seem like they arent in control of all their employees or the combat system. What do you think? Ultimately it comes down to people doing whatever it takes to protect their interests, be it BOB, or CCP. After reading the many articles on both sides - there's no doubt in my mind that an employee of CCP has been or is currently involved with BOB. Who wouldn't take money to cheat in a game? Many ways to rationalize it's not hurting anyone. It only takes ONE GM to skew the balance, and screw the game up. BTW, I want those weapons that Concord uses on my ship! (What are the stats on a 1 shot kill for a BS?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:56:00 - [1813] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Gamer4liff Uh, yeah, you might want to check the price history graphs a week or two from now when things stabilize somewhat. Ehhh, even if T2 goes up 2x or 3x time its STILL not a big deal... In fact T2 is too cheap as it is. If T2 prices goes up (significantly), maybe T1 names items will go up too. This'll bring variety back in the game. Variety is good. Get a sense of perspective... And don't take an internet spaceship game so seriously... Have fun instead! You don't mind paying 3x for T2 goods? I'd be happy to sell you some of my Damnations for 410m :P. This isn't one of those "whoops a few guys found out how to make isk yesterday, and we banned them" this is "For four years, the entire fundamental basis of the T2 economy has been built on misconceptions and on the back of an exploit, which has not only tainted the markets but ruined the 0.0 political landscape in ways we cannot fathom.". This isn't something that we can just walk away from, dust our hands off and say "Gee I'm glad they fixed that". The effects from this exploit are irreversible.
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:03:00 - [1814] Originally by: oilio Edited by: oilio on 13/12/2008 01:40:13 Originally by: Annaphera Logic is only useful if you follow the rules. OK... and IF it is true that this exploit has been going on for FOUR YEARS... and IF it is true that a number of tickets were raised asking for clarificaition over the last FOUR YEARS.. (maybe none of that is true)... but IF it is true, what does that say about CCP? Without beating-about-the-bush too much, I would say that IF the above criteria are true, it is further proof that CCP are utterly slack and concerned only with the issue of taking money off people every month. Pardon me if I seem cynical, but I like to think that I simply reflect the near criminal cynicism of the company that are concerned primarily with the transfer of money from player accounts to CCP's corporate accounts. Roll-on 22nd December. That's when my final subscription expires. First off, you say "IF it is true," then proceed to berate CCP as if it were 100% true. Second, game developer or not, they are a business...why wouldn't they be out to maximize profit? That's one of the kisses of death for an MMO (or any game, to some extent) - when the money men have too much more influence than the creative folks. The trick is to recognize that the business end is a legit and overriding concern, without letting it strangle the creative end completely. Ultima Online has fallen victim to that IMO, as did SWG...but I don't think Eve is even close. We, the gamers, would prefer if money were no object, but we must be realistic and remember that CCP is still a business, and the game won't be around long if they fail to look after the profit end of things. Third - I wish people would stop acting as if every little bug, exploit, and no-longer-desired feature that is corrected was some sort of personal slight by CCP against them.
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:20:00 - [1815] The forums are so much more interesting when people are ruthlessly spin doctoring each others points of view. We do know that a bug was fixed, or at least shut down today. We know that poses and other resources were offlinedÆ and confiscated. We know players where banned. Market Mania soon to follow. Much of the distress is caused in this forum is by a post on the SHC forums by someone who supposedly engaged in the bugged tower fiasco for 4 years. Some unidentified guy says he got banned for exploiting Ferrogel, the exact same day Wrangler confirms it. I really have a hard time believing all of what he says. Have a look at prices before invention came into Eve. Those moons where not worth to harvesting. So few t2 items built when compared to the time when invention became possible that the demand for those moon production was not there. Invention changed the demand for these things drastically. So you only can really count from this point of time. Before invention those whole moon products were more or less un-sellable and worthless. I tried moon mining before invention and you literally had to know someone who needed the stuff in order to do anything with it. There just was no market for moon materials. The only real proof that this exploit was in full gear was Dec, 2007 when prices of Ferrogel went lower than the cost to produce it. As I donÆt believe half of what he says, this Tardbomb is an FÆn genius. At the top of this afternoon's bubble, some big sales came down the pipe, and record of those sales mysteriously vanished soon after. Most of the players in this afternoon's market mania don't even own POSs, much less participated in the use of exploits. There were no rollbacks, everyone got to keep their profits. The ones holding Ferrogel when the history got "adjusted" were left holding the bag and got screwed. They are now in a downward bidding war with each other. A post on the forums by a clever market analyst ? As well as a cleverly placed post, meant to mock the mob mentality and utterly absurd accusations coming out of this thread ? 1) Considering it takes minimal skills to set up a POS, people who profited from this exploit used alts. Those throwaway characters 100% funded by GTCs were banned. The Eve population will be satisfied with symbolic Alt banning. 2) CCP will prevent the markets collapsing. The "invisible hand" will fix the market. It might take a while, but its in its nature to stabilize. 3) Big alliances are for the most part clean. Why put so much effort in taking R64 moons? As for the use of this exploit, so far it has been Evoke and MM admitting it. You can go on the witch hunt for BoB and Goons if you like, but there are guys raising their hands. . 4) We should wait till CCP can look at the situation and provide a response. My money is on the alchemy changes causing this. .
Myra2007 Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:25:00 - [1816] I wonder with this pretty big marketing department that ccp has - why does it always have so bad pr? Obviously bugs/mistakes etc. do happen but i have the feeling your way of handling things like this alienates a lot of people. -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
Myra2007 Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:27:00 - [1817] Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/12/2008 02:30:34 Originally by: Gnulpie So, hmm, yes ... almost everyone had some benefit, only few were at a loss. Does that justify the exploiting? No. But it shows that the exploit wasn't really as nasty as people might think. hmmm yeah why don't they make a feature out of it? Edit: And the answer to your question would be that the game as a whole suffered from this. I think everybody who understands the principles eve is built on would understand why this is the case. -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
Tai Paktu Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:32:00 - [1818] In after paage 60. And to anyone saying this post lacks content, it has more content than half of the utter crap in here.
Kalib Stark Silicon Avalanche	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:36:00 - [1819] Originally by: Annaphera Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. Fallacy - namely unsupported assertion - in the assumption that there were "huge piles" of rare minerals to be uncovered. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. You are right it IS unsupported, as I have only CCP's claims in support, and the value of such is admittedly suspect. Quote: Fallacy - false dichotomy - in saying that either CCP did a moon material analysis that would have uncovered piles of duped materials, or didn't do one at all. There is no false dichotomy as i put forward 3 options: 1) CCP did no study and failed by negligence; 2) they did one and failed due to not uncovering the problem: or 3) they did a study and found it, then lied. Quote: Finally, fallacy - question-begging - in assuming that the only possible outcomes support your position, and using fallacies to get there. This is not question begging, as my conclusion does not hing on a previous unsubstantiated concession. you can pick yes or no at any point in my argument and an it will not improve CCP's position in this matter. ╚KS╝
Kittamaru Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:48:00 - [1820] CCP... please tell me you have a way to fix this... and I mean fix it. Get rid of ALL those that knowingly cheated and remove ALL of THEIR and their DIRECT allies assets. You can easily figure out that even if alts did this, banning them does nothing - they'd transfer the assets to people on other accounts...

Kittamaru Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:49:00 - [1821] Originally by: Annaphera Originally by: Kalib Stark Alchemy took time to develop, hence: A: Alchemy was introduced as a response to a known exploit to balance market. --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent B: Alchemy was introduced without foreknowledge of the exploit: Do you believe that CCP introduced Alchemy without doing an in depth moon min market analysis? If yes --> CCP is negligent. If no --> Do you believe that such an analysis failed to uncover huge piles of rare mins from nothing? If yes --> CCP is inept. If no --> CCP has known from before the claimed date --> CCP timetable claims are Fraudulent. It's called logic. Fallacy - namely unsupported assertion - in the assumption that there were "huge piles" of rare minerals to be uncovered. First, you are assuming that the abuse was massive and widespread, which has yet to be supported by anything but one post on a third-party forum by someone with every reason to exaggerate. Second, you assume that the exploiters were dumb enough to stockpile massive quantities of said materials, which would make them easier to catch and create the possibility of flooding the market and driving the prices down - something no one would think makes sense. Fallacy - false dichotomy - in saying that either CCP did a moon material analysis that would have uncovered piles of duped materials, or didn't do one at all. Remember, CCP knows exactly how many moons are out there that have the rare materials, and also knows the prices commanded by those materials. Those two bits of information, combined with a check on how many of those high-end moons have PoS's, would give them enough information to determine that they should find a way to raise the supply of, or bring down the demand on, high-end moon materials. Trying to track every bit of those high-end moon materials would have uncovered the extra, but would also have been an inefficient use of manpower under any circumstance. Remember, please, that materials don't have to be used immediately, so just looking at moon outputs and created T2 components wouldn't work - the numbers would be assumed to not match exactly. If the number of exploiters was small, or moderate and intelligent, then only a bit-for-bit accounting would uncover anything. Finally, fallacy - question-begging - in assuming that the only possible outcomes support your position, and using fallacies to get there. Logic is only useful if you follow the rules. CCP knows how many of each time of moon exists, correct? Then they ALSO know what the maximum amount of each material that is capable of being made. When they saw a small group making even a portion of that total, it should be a red flag...
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.13 02:54:00 - [1822] Quote: As for the use of this exploit, so far it has been Evoke and MM admitting it. Your post was well thought out, but one minor correction. MM was not involved in this in any way. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:09:00 - [1823] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: As for the use of this exploit, so far it has been Evoke and MM admitting it. Your post was well thought out, but one minor correction. MM was not involved in this in any way. Fair always. I can see situations where an enemy might offer a post in this or other threads meant to harm another group. I saw the post by an MM member and took it at face value
Moya81	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:23:00 - [1824] Edited by: Moya81 on 13/12/2008 03:25:28 Originally by: Myra2007 I wonder with this pretty big marketing department that ccp has - why does it always have so bad pr? Obviously bugs/mistakes etc. do happen but i have the feeling your way of handling things like this alienates a lot of people. Gonna reply the same way I replied in another thread. Yes you are correct but you are also forgetting an important detail that has already been pointed out. GM's are not bug hunters, you have to think of them as nothing more than a call-center for customer support that filters the daily "That guy shot me after I took his can" petitions. The actual Bug hunter AKA QA departement functions separately and relyies on proper bug reports instead of the emo filled posts made in petitions. Any player that contacts CCP trough a petition announcing a potentional bug is usually invited by the GM's to file a bug report. Even if the GM forgets to direct you to fill a bug report he's done nothing wrong simply because you're effectively talking to the wrong person. It would be like asking the cleaning lady of the united nations to increase sactions against iran... The GM's are there for situations that for example require you to get your ship back that you lost in a mission due to lag or solve an immediate issue with some items missing etc etc but are not actually involved in the development of the software and hardware. In conclusion, if this bug had been reported properly then it would have been corrected sooner. I see no reason for CCP to conspire or hide such a bug and then reveal it years later making them look like fools. Cummon what company would seriously want to be in the situation CCP currently is in, making them look incompetent. My 2 cents from an entrepreneur point of view.
IHateMyJob	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:31:00 - [1825] Ok... I just have to say this... for everyone saying "<insert alliance here> has been doing this for years!!!"... if you knew they were doing it, why didn't you say something about it? If you did, can you prove it by posting old petitions? I'm not saying that any alliance is innocent or guilty. I just don't think anyone here is thinking things through... you can all point to someone you don't like and say "THEY DID IT!". I've read all but a couple pages of this and have to say that yes, I think it most likely has been going on for years. I think that the alliances should pay for it by losing isk from the sale of those items, anything purchased with that isk and I think anyone proven to be a part of it should be perma-banned. I have to thank CCP for their swift action and hope that more accounts & corporations are banned & disbanded.
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:36:00 - [1826] A post on the forums, ran by players of EvE, by an unadetified person is the only indication of the length of this exploit. They had lot's of ferrogel in their hanger just doesnt cut it as proof. Why don't you wait to see what CCP has to say? Do you all think CCP can provide an answer right away? This came to light in the middle of the damn night in iceland. You know that place where CCP works and lives. This will take an investigation.CCP doesnt have a button they can push to spit out a lists of pertinant info like you all want. Sit back, relax and I bet when the facts come out it is nowhere near the scope that this mob mentality has made it out to be.
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:50:00 - [1827] Yawnnn .. pg 61 ... can we make 100 pages of mostly drivel. WTS T2 Tinfoil Hats (no Ferrogel used in their production) T2 Flame Suits.
mythpilot	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:57:00 - [1828] Originally by: Rufus MacMaranth Yawnnn .. pg 61 ... can we make 100 pages of mostly drivel. WTS T2 Tinfoil Hats (no Ferrogel used in their production) T2 Flame Suits. WTB those things and sell them higher later in game
Pat McCrotch	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:58:00 - [1829] Here's an idea..... Instead of calling it an exploit, and waiting for the fallout just fix the bug but buff moon mining average yields to the levels we were seeing the market levels at. For example, there are 10 available moons in game that yeilded 195 units of...let's say BUGGERIDE... that was dropped on market per week with this "bug". 3 were "using" the "bug" yielding 30 units each and 7 were legit yielding 15 each. Now fix the "bug", but increase the average yield of all 10 moons to equally mine that same amount, 19.5 units per week each. Then if you are worried about infaltion just introduce the T3 Modular doodads at 1.25 to 1.5 times higher build rates than what you would have without knowledge of this "bug" Walah....problem solved. No one gets banned, we still get t2 kits dirt cheap compared to 2 years ago, T3 will still be inline price wise and we "KILL HAPPILY EVER AFTER" END!
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.13 04:03:00 - [1830] Edited by: OffBeaT on 13/12/2008 04:03:57 Originally by: Emyrxr Originally by: Roymundo Originally by: Delos Korelian Originally by: OffBeaT umm...welcom to the new age of gamming.. maga cheating! what can you say now we have alliances who will never be messed with do to this exploit! i say ccp should close all alliances and restart them fresh. if this won't be done and we know it won't well then the alliances that are not involed in this should have there space resorses beffed up so they can catch up. I would say reset ALL of 0.0. Simply wipe it all out, all stations that were built, all infrastructure, everything, and dump everyone in Empire. thats a pretty good idea. get rid of all the powerblocs that only got this powerfull through corruption and cheating. be interesting to see the new landscape after the wipe though. pure chaos. imagine! all of 0.0 acting as a fw area till it gets settled. ok i am sorry but don't you think that is unfair for all the people who have worked hard and put isk into that infrastructure in 0.0? i mean that is all the sweat and blood of work of alliances.. Also who knows how much isk... so what would that gain us other then very angry people wanting their isk/effort back? think about all players who went up against all these mabe cheating allinces and lost all they had in a war they never had a fair eve chance of ever winnng.. how many eve alliances have they crushed or dreams of players ever making a go of there own corps/allianes.. lets just think about that..

OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.13 04:16:00 - [1831] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Gamer4liff Uh, yeah, you might want to check the price history graphs a week or two from now when things stabilize somewhat. Ehhh, even if T2 goes up 2x or 3x time its STILL not a big deal... In fact T2 is too cheap as it is. If T2 prices goes up (significantly), maybe T1 names items will go up too. This'll bring variety back in the game. Variety is good. Get a sense of perspective... And don't take an internet spaceship game so seriously... Have fun instead! you gota be joking right! think about the newer players or mid range players who grind the game out day in and day out who wont to beable to afford somthing nice for there ships without buying isk to have to do it..
Tribune Maximus Caldari Kor-Azor Tarde Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.13 04:21:00 - [1832] my personal opinion of all this mess: i play eve since 2003. this game, the idea, and the possibiltys to live an complete different life - in an good way, as well, as in an way everyone of us would never even spend an thought on doin those things in real life - also as an tribute to those great games like elite and wingcommander, all together it was an great time. til an point was reached in this game, which i can¦t really point on a special date or incident. the last view days i talked with a lot of peeps, related to evoke and all the time this group of players went, from G to D2 to Evoke, figured out that the idea of EVE got with its development, creeping and just bit by bit **d. the reason for this wont be shared by a lot of the players, but i try to demonstrate it as good as possible. with the t20 incident for a lot of peeps who tried to play eve in a good way, out of their views, their straight and fair way has changed. on the one hand because the behaviour of some guys in the leading lvl of the bob alliance. on the other hand because of the rumors that a lot of employees from ccp are affiliated with this alliance. an further point was the out of the view from players who are not in this alliance and had no special connection to ccp, the far not reasonable reaction of the company to go on with that situation/incident. that the most pilots in these alliances were not involved and had no clue of what goin on, was goin complete down in that witch hunt. like the real life the weakest parts are the first victims - sad but acceptable if you compare it to the metagaming lvl EVE has sadly reached. even fallen idealists or just persons who just want to seed rumors, frustration and hate found a new ideal to go on with their crusade. a few years have past and now we are on an point, which all shows us that this lvl of metagaming** has nothin to do with the idea and the beginning opportunieties for which this game, the idea got created. im not writin this to come to defend the exploiters, nor the one or the others. when you play eve, you must be smarter and more intelligent as the average online player of different games we all know, means all of this expoloters, from which alliance ever or even singel player, knew about that what they did. i flew with evoke, or the parts who over the time builded always the core of these group of people, over three years. i had never something to do with POS¦s or realted stuff, i got out of evoke about 3 to 4 weeks ago, because they believed i would play this game in an way which is not related to the way evoke is playin it, so i got fired. the point i want to demonstrate is, it dosent matter if you take evoke, rumors are saying bob is involved as well, as a part of goons and ra, everyone who got involved in this, means was using this exploit to stay in the race of being one of the big ones or known ones, knew about what he did and cheated not just the idea of eve, they not just cheated also the fair-minded player, they as well screwed themselfe tragically! if an game reaches an lvl, in which is normal to use an spynetwork, in which is it normal to use special connections or weak parts in the publishers structure, in which is normal to use known, well known it seems, ways to exploit and get an unnormal advantage, something went sadly and terrible wrong. this brings me to the responsibility of ccp, i can remember the speach of ccp¦s employees during the fanfest 06. the guy spoke about the way of good and evil, about the cultural backround, about the point what makes someone "good" or "evil"?! now we get to our current situation, i guess it would be good to transfer this approach, which was spoken on there, now. even this great idea needs limits. the position "eve is a sandbox, its your opportunity to create it!" could bring this idea, this social experiment to an tragic crash and a lot might leave with the feeling "if we would had made things differnt earlier!"
Ironstorm	Posted - 2008.12.13 04:37:00 - [1833] Edited by: Ironstorm on 13/12/2008 04:36:58 in the meanwhile fallen idealists are hacking forums, gettin personal informations and calling people at home, on their work or where ever. and want to get informations to fill their forums. are you guys sure you want support this lvl ? what about the next incident, if your phone rings?! what comes next? a few sad and from life forgotten get into the plane and knock on the door from someone, just because rumors seeded by an hurt and lost. wake up! you get used as well and if you play eve, you are smart enough to know that
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.13 04:39:00 - [1834] Edited by: XxHey BabyxX on 13/12/2008 04:44:01 @ Tribune Maximus Rofl so just say, hey nothing happens move on, be thankfull to Evoke that they made your stuff cheaper and lets forget about it. Dude ofc you're defending Evoke because you where in one of those G/Evoke Corps, until last month, which was proven to used that exploit. You benefit from their wealth and probably know about what was going on. See, you had unlimited Ressources for 3 years, yet you still failed to do anything significant other than run with G from BOB in EC-, or with D2 run from MC, or with Evoke Run from BOB and later TRI. You're a bunch of cheaters and run away cowards with Many Supercapitals/capitals and blueprints, which you don't deserve. Really a shame that you are Germans. Other than that, we ofc want to know who else was using that exploit.
Kei Gravatid	Posted - 2008.12.13 04:47:00 - [1835] Originally by: Mr Facilitator Invention changed the demand for these things drastically. So you only can really count from this point of time. Before invention those whole moon products were more or less un-sellable and worthless. I tried moon mining before invention and you literally had to know someone who needed the stuff in order to do anything with it. There just was no market for moon materials. The only real proof that this exploit was in full gear was Dec, 2007 when prices of Ferrogel went lower than the cost to produce it. [/quote If this is accurate then what about a statement from CCP which would at least put this into perspective? It has always seemed to me that if you tried to play the economic aspect of this game you were always fighting uphill, so I don't think there is a lot a confidence by many players that CCP actually pays much attention to the effects of new lines of production. I do not have a POS so I can't comment on your information except to say it is strange that CCP introduce something that is economically useless. This is either sloppiness or ... Additionally you talk about "proof" based only on available market data. I mean, when was the last time they introduced something for a ship that was useless? And I am sorry but point 3); as I understand it nul sec is considered a club, so a few people take the fall, it saves others .... I have no proof of this but it is a consideration?
alexreborn Sekura-Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.13 05:13:00 - [1836] As of seeing this forum post many T2 items have spiked in price in jita. I would attribute this to people forecasting higher production costs, and so everyone buying everything, is creating artificial inflation. However what if all of this actually made a huge difference in the cost of T2 production? What effect will that have on the EVE population in which T2 has become a must for any and all ships? Not only that EVE has gotten to the point where they are going to introduce tech 3.. But if the price of tech 2 shoots up, wont T2 be what everyone will be trying to get their hands on still? And make T3 just a media advertisement to get people back into the game, and effectively useless? So where do the roads take us from here? At this point - judging by the change of some prices in the last day, it might be worth switching back to Tech 1 named items.
Arno Villanova Amarr The Mongols	Posted - 2008.12.13 05:20:00 - [1837] I will say it again. Its a game... Get over yourselves... Move on and have fun.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.13 05:22:00 - [1838] Originally by: Arno Villanova I will say it again. Its a game... Get over yourselves... Move on and have fun. ROFL if you believe this starts and end with G / EvOke. Even worse if CCP claims the same.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.13 05:53:00 - [1839] Originally by: alexreborn As of seeing this forum post many T2 items have spiked in price in jita. I would attribute this to people forecasting higher production costs, and so everyone buying everything, is creating artificial inflation. That's sort of the beauty of EVE's economy, it's impossible to tell where the market speculation begins and the effects of the exploit ends. It's like a real economy in that sense, everybody rushing to make money.
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:07:00 - [1840] The only market that really matters is Forge, its the main volume market. Lets look at the price and volume of Ferrogel in Jita. I know a bit about the moon material markets including ferrogel, fermionic condensates. Only the couple of last weeks there were very low prices for e and big sales going on. Shows that something strange was going on. You can look at the market history and see that only in the recent weeks the price dropped heavily and below production costs. Second time in the last 12 months. Was this an attempt to dump a soon to be exploit? Or just a case of Dum & Dummer getting greedy ? Either way, it's being "fixed" now be good traders and benefit from it. Isn't it funny that a big majority in this thread have one way or the other had or benefited from the"exploited" isk at any one time. Also the complaining have known/been associated with someone who was doing it. Me included ! Lets be frank. Plenty of butt hurt folks today in EvE. The ISK making Ferrogel machine went poof. It's fixed ! Now benefit from it. Once again ! If you don't know who I am .... lets keep it that way !

Umara	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:20:00 - [1841] Kei Gravitid "I mean, when was the last time they introduced something for a ship that was useless?" Please clarify.
Arno Villanova Amarr The Mongols	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:21:00 - [1842] Originally by: Baske Originally by: Arno Villanova I will say it again. Its a game... Get over yourselves... Move on and have fun. ROFL if you believe this starts and end with G / EvOke. Even worse if CCP claims the same. LOL claims what, that Eve is a game. Its just amusing that people will get themselves all worked up over a game. Then again, most of them are the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:23:00 - [1843] Originally by: Mr Facilitator Isn't it funny that a big majority in this thread have one way or the other had or benefited from the"exploited" isk at any one time. Considering your position about it you probably have benefited from it. Don't try to put the rest of us in your club though. For most of us this exploit was nocive, as was explained time and again in this thread. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:30:00 - [1844] Edited by: XxHey BabyxX on 13/12/2008 06:31:18 Originally by: Arno Villanova Originally by: Baske Originally by: Arno Villanova I will say it again. Its a game... Get over yourselves... Move on and have fun. ROFL if you believe this starts and end with G / EvOke. Even worse if CCP claims the same. LOL claims what, that Eve is a game. Its just amusing that people will get themselves all worked up over a game. Then again, most of them are the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. so everyone is a nerd in this thread, huh? funny because you just made 3 posts here aswell, always claiming that eve is just a game and we should leave them alone. What's next? a post where you claim you don't care about this issue, while still posting in this thread?
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:45:00 - [1845] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Mr Facilitator Isn't it funny that a big majority in this thread have one way or the other had or benefited from the"exploited" isk at any one time. Considering your position about it you probably have benefited from it. Don't try to put the rest of us in your club though. For most of us this exploit was nocive, as was explained time and again in this thread. It's more a matter of CCP not bothering with it when 99% of the Eve population is satisfied with symbolic alt bannings. It's a game. Get over it. The legions of ice mining macroalts and real money traders are probably laghing their ass off right now.
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:56:00 - [1846] Originally by: Mr Facilitator Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Mr Facilitator Isn't it funny that a big majority in this thread have one way or the other had or benefited from the"exploited" isk at any one time. Considering your position about it you probably have benefited from it. Don't try to put the rest of us in your club though. For most of us this exploit was nocive, as was explained time and again in this thread. It's more a matter of CCP not bothering with it when 99% of the Eve population is satisfied with symbolic alt bannings. It's a game. Get over it. The legions of ice mining macroalts and real money traders are probably laghing their ass off right now. funny how everyone is saying it's just a game, while poasting in a thread about a certain issue that made several path's in this game, less profitable/enjoyable. get over it, there are people with a opinion on things that are different from yours
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:01:00 - [1847] Originally by: alexreborn As of seeing this forum post many T2 items have spiked in price in jita. I would attribute this to people forecasting higher production costs, and so everyone buying everything, is creating artificial inflation. However what if all of this actually made a huge difference in the cost of T2 production? What effect will that have on the EVE population in which T2 has become a must for any and all ships? Not only that EVE has gotten to the point where they are going to introduce tech 3.. But if the price of tech 2 shoots up, wont T2 be what everyone will be trying to get their hands on still? And make T3 just a media advertisement to get people back into the game, and effectively useless? So where do the roads take us from here? At this point - judging by the change of some prices in the last day, it might be worth switching back to Tech 1 named items. I like that idea. T2 just became to cheap and common.
Xaja Diuqil The Kebab Shop	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:05:00 - [1848] EVE may very well 'just' be a game but there is a hell of a lot more to it than that. With RL ISK traders out there the value of the amounts we're talking about here which runs into hundreds of billions overall has a RL valuation. If you consider that a PLEX runs at around 300 mil and that's say $20 worth perhaps the value of the scam will become apparent, not only to the players, but also to CCP. I am sure that there is a major investigation going on but the whole complaint and discussion about why this wasn't sorted out earlier is simple - overworked and/or incompetent staff along with a few clever individuals (who turned out to be not-so-clever eventually). Yes, there will be market implications and yes some of us will get richer quicker than others, but in a few months the whole market will look like it was designed to look four years ago, and we will all adapt to it. I just hope that CCP really looks into this and goes as deep as it possibly can to eradicate as many accounts as possible and freeze the assests involved with those accounts. But it's pointless flaming them until they have carried out their investigations, whether they should have watched it for a few weeks to fully comprehend how deep it all went is another matter (after all, if it was going on for years, another couple of weeks wouldn't have made much difference). They have said they will let us know after the weekend so give them a chance and stop filling this thread ****ed "We want answers NOW" posts. Just be patient and wait for the outcome! The Kebab Shop - The best Kebabs in New Eden!**
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:08:00 - [1849] Originally by: Afale II Originally by: Mr Facilitator Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Mr Facilitator Isn't it funny that a big majority in this thread have one way or the other had or benefited from the"exploited" isk at any one time. Considering your position about it you probably have benefited from it. Don't try to put the rest of us in your club though. For most of us this exploit was nocive, as was explained time and again in this thread. It's more a matter of CCP not bothering with it when 99% of the Eve population is satisfied with symbolic alt bannings. It's a game. Get over it. The legions of ice mining macroalts and real money traders are probably laghing their ass off right now. funny how everyone is saying it's just a game, while poasting in a thread about a certain issue that made several path's in this game, less profitable/enjoyable. get over it, there are people with a opinion on things that are different from yours The forums are so much more interesting when people are ruthlessly spin doctoring each others points of view. We do know that a bug was fixed, or at least shut down today. We know that POSs and other resources were offlinedÆ and confiscated. We know players where banned. Give CCP a rest. Much of the distress is caused in this forum is by a post on the SHC forums by someone who supposedly engaged in the bugged tower fiasco for 4 years. Some unidentified guy says he got banned for exploiting Ferrogel, then the exact same day Wrangler confirms it. Sigh - another one of those silly threadnoughts where the tinfoil hats form insta-mobs.Rumor is taken as fact. Wild assumptions are made and reasoning abilities get self-nerfed. Typical aspects of your standard mob.A self-confessing cheater claims that something went on for 4 years. His words are taken at face value - while nothing CCP says gets any credibility.
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:11:00 - [1850] Originally by: Tribune Maximus poast So you say that the ones that found out that it was infact Ev0ke who was involved in this, are worse for the game than the people that acctually did the biggest Ingame Exploit up to this date. Sorry but I don't buy that good Sir.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:20:00 - [1851] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 07:20:29 Originally by: Mr Facilitator Sigh - another one of those silly threadnoughts where the tinfoil hats form insta-mobs.Rumor is taken as fact. Wild assumptions are made and reasoning abilities get self-nerfed. Typical aspects of your standard mob.A self-confessing cheater claims that something went on for 4 years. His words are taken at face value - while nothing CCP says gets any credibility. As of now it is not a matter of believing in a self-confessed cheater or CCP. Until this point there is no incompatibility between each one's versions, mainly because CCP is playing mute. In the absence of further information the one version that makes sense and has no evidence of being false tends to be taken as truth. That is what will always happen. And the main motive is no other than CCP negligence in providing suficient information. Personally I do believe the guy. I have no reason not to believe as nobody presented even a single evidence of his being lying. CCP has a long history of obfuscation, and now as more than once before, they are paying the price for it. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Afale II Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:24:00 - [1852] Originally by: Mr Facilitator The forums are so much more interesting when people are ruthlessly spin doctoring each others points of view. We do know that a bug was fixed, or at least shut down today. We know that POSs and other resources were offlinedÆ and confiscated. We know players where banned. Give CCP a rest. Much of the distress is caused in this forum is by a post on the SHC forums by someone who supposedly engaged in the bugged tower fiasco for 4 years. Some unidentified guy says he got banned for exploiting Ferrogel, then the exact same day Wrangler confirms it. Sigh - another one of those silly threadnoughts where the tinfoil hats form insta-mobs.Rumor is taken as fact. Wild assumptions are made and reasoning abilities get self-nerfed. Typical aspects of your standard mob.A self-confessing cheater claims that something went on for 4 years. His words are taken at face value - while nothing CCP says gets any credibility. Not exactly. http://www.eve-online.de/forum/showthread.php?t=18087 2 Days ago I opend that thread in the German forums, after I heard about this Exploit. there was a guy named "Verfasser" which is infact the "anotherguy" on SHC aka Malti/Maltroc from ev0ke. Now he was banned, but we manage to chat a little bit with him. He told us almost everything but his name /alliance, though he was so stupid to register a 2nd account on the forum with the same ip, the mods found out and banning him, so we get his name and corp/alliance. He was showing us Screen shots from the moon exploit and brag about it. Though he also said that he reported it, but I really don't belive that. That said I'm pretty sure that this was going on for some years now, because after all this exploit can only be discoverd if you make experiment with a pos in a noobish way, and to be honest Ev0ke aren't that noobish.
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:29:00 - [1853] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 07:20:29 Originally by: Mr Facilitator Sigh - another one of those silly threadnoughts where the tinfoil hats form insta-mobs.Rumor is taken as fact. Wild assumptions are made and reasoning abilities get self-nerfed. Typical aspects of your standard mob.A self-confessing cheater claims that something went on for 4 years. His words are taken at face value - while nothing CCP says gets any credibility. As of now it is not a matter of believing in a self-confessed cheater or CCP. Until this point there is no incompatibility between each one's versions, mainly because CCP is playing mute. In the absence of further information the one version that makes sense and has no evidence of being false tends to be taken as truth. That is what will always happen. And the main motive is no other than CCP negligence in providing suficient information. Personally I do believe the guy. I have no reason not to believe as nobody presented even a single evidence of his being lying. CCP has a long history of obfuscation, and now as more than once before, they are paying the price for it. The source is somebody who claims not to care about EVE - but keeps playing for years. Why do so few see the obvious contradictions here? CCP is accused of having known about it for years - but not bothered to fix it. What could have their motivation been? None of this is in CCPs best interest. Self-interest is usually the best indicator of what's really going on.The fact alone that CCP did not act sooner makes it more reasonable to assume it either wasn't widely used during last few years - and that CCP simply didn't know about it until recently.Even the economic effects are wildly speculated without bringing reason into the mix.
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:44:00 - [1854] Mr Facilitator, Your rather balant attempts at damage control are mostly based on the same lack of reason and wild speculation, that you implicated in others. Simple Facts: A. CCP made an official News Announcement. B. An exploit concerning Starbases and Advanced Moon material Production was disclosed as fixed. C. The economical effects of the abuse of the exploit have been stated by ccp as "considerable and far reaching" D. With the removal of the exploit CCP states, that "the production of the materials has been cut substantially" E. CCP states clearly that the removel of the exploit, "will also be felt on the market." F. We have concrete numbers about the corporations and account banned as immediate reaction. G. We know that the investigation is still ongoing. H. This announcement is now two day old and no further information has been disclosed.
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:46:00 - [1855] comes from an alt last 15 posts are propaganda crap against NC ,i guess your main is at BOB/BOB pet .STFU and GTFO now . Originally by: XxHey BabyxX funny because you just made 3 posts here aswell, always claiming that eve is just a game and we should leave them alone.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:53:00 - [1856] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 07:55:28 Originally by: Mr Facilitator The source is somebody who claims not to care about EVE - but keeps playing for years. Why do so few see the obvious contradictions here? CCP is accused of having known about it for years - but not bothered to fix it. What could have their motivation been? None of this is in CCPs best interest. Self-interest is usually the best indicator of what's really going on.The fact alone that CCP did not act sooner makes it more reasonable to assume it either wasn't widely used during last few years - and that CCP simply didn't know about it until recently.Even the economic effects are wildly speculated without bringing reason into the mix. The source never said he didn't care about eve. I sincerelly doubt CCP as whole knew about this problem, but if the source is not lying a GM could have upheld the information for his own motives, which may be many. From helping his buddies at an alliance, to earning real life money. But even if he is lying about it and CCP didn't recieve any petition, that is still a huge problem. See, CCP insists in allowing their employees to play the game, which genates conflicts of interests, arging that they need to know the game. It is a stupid idea if you ask my opinion, but lets put that aside for now. So they do play the game to understand its flaws and dynamics, to see if it is fun, to see what is happening, right? Now the economic effects have been reported by CCP ITSELF as far reaching and considerable, which implies this has been going for time enough to produce significant economical impact. Then why the hell NONE of CCP's Devs, GMs, or DBAs noticed this problem in all this time while playing the game exactly for this?! See the absurdity. Either they are ALL highly incompetent, or at least some of them knew about it and decided to do nothing about it. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 07:55:00 - [1857] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Mr Facilitator, Your rather balant attempts at damage control are mostly based on the same lack of reason and wild speculation, that you implicated in others. Simple Facts: A. CCP made an official News Announcement. B. An exploit concerning Starbases and Advanced Moon material Production was disclosed as fixed. C. The economical effects of the abuse of the exploit have been stated by ccp as "considerable and far reaching" D. With the removal of the exploit CCP states, that "the production of the materials has been cut substantially" E. CCP states clearly that the removel of the exploit, "will also be felt on the market." F. We have concrete numbers about the corporations and account banned as immediate reaction. G. We know that the investigation is still ongoing. H. This announcement is now two day old and no further information has been disclosed. Well gosh darn ! It think you just made my point. Just goes to show ya' Like my dear old pappy always said " Son you wait and the worm will turn"
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:06:00 - [1858] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 07:55:28 Originally by: Mr Facilitator The source is somebody who claims not to care about EVE - but keeps playing for years. Why do so few see the obvious contradictions here? CCP is accused of having known about it for years - but not bothered to fix it. What could have their motivation been? None of this is in CCPs best interest. Self-interest is usually the best indicator of what's really going on.The fact alone that CCP did not act sooner makes it more reasonable to assume it either wasn't widely used during last few years - and that CCP simply didn't know about it until recently.Even the economic effects are wildly speculated without bringing reason into the mix. The source never said he didn't care about eve. I sincerelly doubt CCP as whole knew about this problem, but if the source is not lying a GM could have upheld the information for his own motives, which may be many. From helping his buddies at an alliance, to earning real life money. But even if he is lying about it and CCP didn't recieve any petition, that is still a huge problem. See, CCP insists in allowing their employees to play the game, which genates conflicts of interests, arging that they need to know the game. It is a stupid idea if you ask my opinion, but lets put that aside for now. So they do play the game to understand its flaws and dynamics, to see if it is fun, to see what is happening, right? Now the economic effects have been reported by CCP ITSELF as far reaching and considerable, which implies this has been going for time enough to produce significant economical impact. Then why the hell NONE of CCP's Devs, GMs, or DBAs noticed this problem in all this time while playing the game exactly for this?! See the absurdity. Either they are ALL highly incompetent, or at least some of them knew about it and decided to do nothing about it. Point made. I also have been playing this game for years now. Did not know about the exploit till today. I guess you can throw me into the mix as well. Considered one of the culprits as a friend for many months. Only in recent months did we have a falling out. My interest peak about his situation after I found his suposed renting of 0.0 space. Well guess what ? He was part of this fiasco. I can assure you his involvement was on for only months.
nekolove Eve University	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:21:00 - [1859] Edited by: nekolove on 13/12/2008 08:21:47 Alchemy Dev Blog: Under invention, T2 BPOs still have significant value, but players who don't have the good fortune or good business acumen to own an original blueprint can still compete in the market, and this competition has increased availability and driven prices down. However, there's rarely such a thing as a perfect supply chain, and in opening the floodgates at the manufacturing stage, we increased demand for raw materials, which also have limitations on maximum supply in a way which closely mirrors the original situation with T2 BPOs. With player numbers rising and increasing numbers of players reaching the skill levels needed to use more advanced T2 gear, the pressure on certain key raw materials has steadily increased. LOL How much fun is to take things out of context.
Enaria Ferenic Amarr SPORADIC MOVEMENT FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:29:00 - [1860] Threadnought FTW! Personally I think CCP needs to do a Live Dev Blog style update on this whole issue, a forum post or a Dev Blog will not do, and TBH the sooner the better.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:30:00 - [1861] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 08:32:11 Originally by: Mr Facilitator Point made. I also have been playing this game for years now. Did not know about the exploit till today. I guess you can throw me into the mix as well. Considered one of the culprits as a friend for many months. Only in recent months did we have a falling out. My interest peak about his situation after I found his suposed renting of 0.0 space. Well guess what ? He was part of this fiasco. I can assure you his involvement was on for only months. And I can believe you. It is reasonably to assume that not everybody that did it became awareof it at the same time. It is not like this was a great conspirancy. It is more like a disease. I can clearly imagine people in awe discovering about it and deciding to keep their mouths shut,and the phenom spreading as more people get interested in moon materials. It is a matter of statistics. People need to perform an unlikely task and notice the results. The chances are not in favor of this, but as the number of people interested increase the chance of at least a few of them discovering the exploit increases dramatically. I have a good excuse to not have noticed, I never tried to assemble a moon mining POS. Maybe that was your case too. Maybe you did assemble a moon mining POS, but did it in a way the exploit didn't appear as ceratinly most people did. But it was the CCP's employees' duty to experiment. It is unexcusable that THEY didn't notice it for so much time. That is the whole reason why they are allowed to play in questionable circumstances. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus R.U.R.	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:35:00 - [1862] Are you the sort who looks at the history of a character's posts? Look no further, I am looking back at you.
Astro Glyde	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:42:00 - [1863]
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:52:00 - [1864] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 08:32:11 Originally by: Mr Facilitator Point made. I also have been playing this game for years now. Did not know about the exploit till today. I guess you can throw me into the mix as well. Considered one of the culprits as a friend for many months. Only in recent months did we have a falling out. My interest peak about his situation after I found his suposed renting of 0.0 space. Well guess what ? He was part of this fiasco. I can assure you his involvement was on for only months. And I can believe you. It is reasonably to assume that not everybody that did it became awareof it at the same time. It is not like this was a great conspirancy. It is more like a disease. I can clearly imagine people in awe discovering about it and deciding to keep their mouths shut,and the phenom spreading as more people get interested in moon materials. It is a matter of statistics. People need to perform an unlikely task and notice the results. The chances are not in favor of this, but as the number of people interested increase the chance of at least a few of them discovering the exploit increases dramatically. I have a good excuse to not have noticed, I never tried to assemble a moon mining POS. Maybe that was your case too. Maybe you did assemble a moon mining POS, but did it in a way the exploit didn't appear as ceratinly most people did. But it was the CCP's employees' duty to experiment. It is unexcusable that THEY didn't notice it for so much time. That is the whole reason why they are allowed to play in questionable circumstances. Or it can just as easily indicate that this has not been going on for a long period of time. See how easy it is to take vague and convoluted logic and make whatever point you wish out of it. ===== * Now I know how George Washington felt when Napoleon bombed him at Pearl Harbor. - Beast Boy
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 08:52:00 - [1865] Have a look at prices before invention came into Eve. Those moons where not worth to harvesting. So few t2 items built when compared to the time when invention became possible that the demand for those moon production was not there. Invention changed the demand for these things drastically. So you only can really count from this point of time. Before invention those whole moon products were more or less un-sellable and worthless. I tried moon mining before invention and you literally had to know someone who needed the stuff in order to do anything with it. there just was no market for moon materials. The only real proof that this exploit was in full gear was Dec, 2007 when prices of Ferrogel went lower than the cost to produce it. A post on the forums, ran by Eve players, by banned players who are the only your indication of the length of this exploit. My money is on the alchemy changes causing this.
Mr Facilitator	Posted - 2008.12.13 09:06:00 - [1866] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 13/12/2008 08:56:43 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 08:32:11 Originally by: Mr Facilitator Point made. I also have been playing this game for years now. Did not know about the exploit till today. I guess you can throw me into the mix as well. Considered one of the culprits as a friend for many months. Only in recent months did we have a falling out. My interest peak about his situation after I found his suposed renting of 0.0 space. Well guess what ? He was part of this fiasco. I can assure you his involvement was on for only months. And I can believe you. It is reasonably to assume that not everybody that did it became awareof it at the same time. It is not like this was a great conspirancy. It is more like a disease. I can clearly imagine people in awe discovering about it and deciding to keep their mouths shut,and the phenom spreading as more people get interested in moon materials. It is a matter of statistics. People need to perform an unlikely task and notice the results. The chances are not in favor of this, but as the number of people interested increase the chance of at least a few of them discovering the exploit increases dramatically. I have a good excuse to not have noticed, I never tried to assemble a moon mining POS. Maybe that was your case too. Maybe you did assemble a moon mining POS, but did it in a way the exploit didn't appear as ceratinly most people did. But it was the CCP's employees' duty to experiment. It is unexcusable that THEY didn't notice it for so much time. That is the whole reason why they are allowed to play in questionable circumstances. Or it can just as easily indicate that this has not been going on for a long period of time. See how easy it is to take vague and convoluted logic and make whatever point you wish out of it. Then again, this whole thread proves that point in soooo many ways. Personally, I'd much rather this whole thing be thoroughly investigated before any more announcements are made concerning the time line, who was involved, how much if any harm was done to the overall in game economy. You know what I'm talking about right? Those little things called facts. My point only pertained to my ex-friends participation. Your point is valid vs. the mob mentality I have seen here in this thread. It's just plain stupid to see both Evoke and MM in the same German thread named as culprits and asume it to be true.
Astro Glyde	Posted - 2008.12.13 09:42:00 - [1867] Originally by: Mr Facilitator It's just plain stupid to see both Evoke and MM in the same German thread named as culprits and asume it to be true. What, Ev0ke's own confession/apology not enough for you? And MM confessed in that German thread you quote. Nice try, ALT.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 09:43:00 - [1868] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 13/12/2008 09:42:58 Originally by: Ranger 1 Or it can just as easily indicate that this has not been going on for a long period of time. See how easy it is to take vague and convoluted logic and make whatever point you wish out of it. Then again, this whole thread proves that point in soooo many ways. No it can't, as of CCP statement. It is impossible for the effects to be "considerable and far reaching" if this is not going on for a long time. Quote: Personally, I'd much rather this whole thing be thoroughly investigated before any more announcements are made concerning the time line, who was involved, how much if any harm was done to the overall in game economy. You know what I'm talking about right? Those little things called facts. We have facts. We just don't have 100% of the picture, which we will never have because it is impossible. What we are asking for is transparency from CCP and a satisfatory solution for the problem, preferably one that guarantees that at least the gross of the fruits of these exploits will be expurgated from this game. I am not here to point fingers at MM, Ev0ke or anyone else. I don't have a clue if your alliance has anything to do with it. What I want is for CCP to disclose EVERYTHING about this case. Complete transparency, and commitment to undo the harm done at the best of their capabilities. Nothing less seems acceptable to me in this case. Banning characters and punitive measures are secundary things to me. I am more interested in fixing things than punishing people. The most important thing here are the money and the assets. As long as this is not taken care of, the situation won't be solved. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 10:36:00 - [1869] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Kerfira My post You don't mind paying 3x for T2 goods? I'd be happy to sell you some of my Damnations for 410m :P. As everyone else would also pay 3x the price, it wouldn't matter in the slightest. It would just mean that the variety of what people flew would be wider, that killing T2 ships or T2 equipped ships would be something that really hurt, and that flying them would be something to be proud of. A game like this NEEDS something to strive for, which means that having things too cheap (like T2 have been) is actually hurting the game as a whole, as it takes away challenge and variety. Originally by: Gamer4liff This isn't one of those "whoops a few guys found out how to make isk yesterday, and we banned them" this is "For four years, the entire fundamental basis of the T2 economy has been built on misconceptions and on the back of an exploit, which has not only tainted the markets but ruined the 0.0 political landscape in ways we cannot fathom.". This isn't something that we can just walk away from, dust our hands off and say "Gee I'm glad they fixed that". The effects from this exploit are irreversible. Get real. The effects from this will be gone in a few weeks as prices stabilise. The large majority of EVE (except for a few whiners) will simply adapt to the new reality. They'll cry a little more when losing a T2 ship, and they'll laugh a little more when killing one.... This is a GAME, not something important..... As long as everyone is playing on the same playing field it doesn't matter that the playing field now is a little rougher. In fact it is beneficial for the game. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 10:40:00 - [1870] Originally by: OffBeaT Originally by: Kerfira My post you gota be joking right! think about the newer players or mid range players who grind the game out day in and day out who wont to beable to afford somthing nice for there ships without buying isk to have to do it.. Correction.... They'll still be able to buy lots of nice stuff, but the available range of goods just got stretched out a bit with regard to affordability. Game mechanics wise, it will be a GOOD thing for T2 to get more expensive, as it'll: 1. Make people cry a little more as they lose it 2. Make people gloat a little more when they kill it 3. Give more people something higher to strive for 4. Make flying T2 something of a bragging item In other words, it'll insert a little more emotion into people's gameplay, which is all that really matters. Look further than your own nose, please..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.13 10:53:00 - [1871] Originally by: Gamer4liff You don't mind paying 3x for T2 goods? Care to share your calculations with us? A quick calculation on my side shows that with alchemy ferogel will be around 40-45k. That is roughly twice as expensive as a few weeks ago. I suspect fermionic condensates around 70k and hypersynaptic fibers at 8k. With these numbers a rapier costs around 20-25 mil more to build with invention. That is 45% more. Not 400%. I can understand that some people want market panic so that they can sell their stuff much overpriced, but they hysteria about insane expensive t2 mods and the end of the world is just absurd. Ships will become 50% more expensive at worst, modules will be affected that a bit less. And that is if ONLY alchemy is used and no dys supply at all comming in on the market. With the still ongoing supply from 0.0 prices will rise even less.
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.13 10:59:00 - [1872] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Banning characters and punitive measures are secundary things to me. I am more interested in fixing things than punishing people. The most important thing here are the money and the assets. As long as this is not taken care of, the situation won't be solved. Most important thing is trust in CCP for a good game to be played, assets are nothing. I see the propoganda here. This is easy to see. Propoganda will not save EvE. The propoganda will only stop the people to save EvE. This is selfish desire in the propoganda. This is not only speaking of POS and reactions. Now it seems like the game is a casino. The casino always takes the money from your hand, they take the "assets" always. In the end you always lose. There is no hope to win, only a fools hope. Because we always lose, EvE is not an adventure, it is a tragedy. If CCP decides to let this be true, then EvE is dead. Better to let some of these people die quick now and save EvE, make fights real so you can win and not so you always lose. Show us all that cheaters do not own EvE. If not, EvE is dead anyway. There is no choice. The choices were made before. There is only what needs to be done now. This is not a time where pity and mercy is helping, they must save the game from the death from inside. This is not about "fair" or "justice" to the scammers and their friends, this is about living to the next day for all the rest of EvE. CCP must be cruel. They must be cut this out and this will hurt. If not, better to say "thanks for the fish" now and find other things to do. This is time wasted here.
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:10:00 - [1873] Originally by: Gnulpie ...I can understand that some people want market panic so that they can sell their stuff much overpriced, but they hysteria about insane expensive t2 mods and the end of the world is just absurd... Prices are irrelevant. The anger is the game is played for everyone to lose and maybe 500 people to win out of 250k people. That is the anger. But you know that. If you lose always in every fight that is important, even if you are the best, how is this a game people can play?
Wodanonline Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:11:00 - [1874] Originally by: Innocent II Originally by: Etho Demerzel Banning characters and punitive measures are secundary things to me. I am more interested in fixing things than punishing people. The most important thing here are the money and the assets. As long as this is not taken care of, the situation won't be solved. Most important thing is trust in CCP for a good game to be played, assets are nothing. I see the propoganda here. This is easy to see. Propoganda will not save EvE. The propoganda will only stop the people to save EvE. This is selfish desire in the propoganda. This is not only speaking of POS and reactions. Now it seems like the game is a casino. The casino always takes the money from your hand, they take the "assets" always. In the end you always lose. There is no hope to win, only a fools hope. Because we always lose, EvE is not an adventure, it is a tragedy. If CCP decides to let this be true, then EvE is dead. Better to let some of these people die quick now and save EvE, make fights real so you can win and not so you always lose. Show us all that cheaters do not own EvE. If not, EvE is dead anyway. There is no choice. The choices were made before. There is only what needs to be done now. This is not a time where pity and mercy is helping, they must save the game from the death from inside. This is not about "fair" or "justice" to the scammers and their friends, this is about living to the next day for all the rest of EvE. CCP must be cruel. They must be cut this out and this will hurt. If not, better to say "thanks for the fish" now and find other things to do. This is time wasted here. you are delusional and full of crap assets is 50 % of your gameplay. and trust ccp for a good game play sure for a honest game play well lets just say something near the scale of this happened before. the big question is what will they do about it what can they still do about it how far does this go back and how far back can they see. alot of ppl want these ppl removed and stripped to the fullest THAT is not propaganda that is justice.
Lijhal	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:12:00 - [1875] ban them all!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:13:00 - [1876] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Ranger 1 Or it can just as easily indicate that this has not been going on for a long period of time. See how easy it is to take vague and convoluted logic and make whatever point you wish out of it. Then again, this whole thread proves that point in soooo many ways. No it can't, as of CCP statement. It is impossible for the effects to be "considerable and far reaching" if this is not going on for a long time. You want an hypothetical example of a "considerable and far reaching" effect that you can get in a limited spawn of time and without so many people involved? If a single POS exploiting can generate over 8 billions in a month 25 such POS (very easy to manage by 5 players) in two months would have generate 400 billions. Now our "friends", unused to such wealth, spend some of it but don't know what to do with the rest (or simply want to try to secure it against discovery) and using some alt, deposit it in EBank. CCP investigate and seize the assets of this guys and all the alts. EBank suddenly lose 350 billions from the liquid assets, losing almost all the reserve to pay for withdrawals. So they need to sell assets and recall loans. And that will damage investitors and people that have asked for the loans, with an added risk of a bank run and stunting of the EBank for months to come. "considerable and far reaching" consequences without the need of a long exploiting period. There are several scenarios where some month of this exploit can have "considerable and far reaching" consequences without the need of it being in effect for years.
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:16:00 - [1877] Originally by: Wodanonline you are delusional and full of crap assets is 50 % of your gameplay. and trust ccp for a good game play sure for a honest game play well lets just say something near the scale of this happened before. the big question is what will they do about it what can they still do about it how far does this go back and how far back can they see. alot of ppl want these ppl removed and stripped to the fullest THAT is not propaganda that is justice. Assets are the tools to play. If they are all fake, what are they? You can get assets, but the cheaters will always have more, and you will die and lose everything.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:20:00 - [1878] Originally by: Innocent II Assets are the tools to play. If they are all fake, what are they? They're all bits in a database in London..... Jeez.... Don't take an internet space game so seriously. Get a life instead.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:23:00 - [1879] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Innocent II Assets are the tools to play. If they are all fake, what are they? They're all bits in a database in London..... Jeez.... Don't take an internet space game so seriously. Get a life instead.... I will get a life, I think I want to be elf mage.
Mazza Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:29:00 - [1880] Originally by: Innocent II Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Innocent II Assets are the tools to play. If they are all fake, what are they? They're all bits in a database in London..... Jeez.... Don't take an internet space game so seriously. Get a life instead.... I will get a life, I think I want to be elf mage. jog on then. dont let any of us stop u Yarrrrrrr

Jalif Scorpion's Sting Blades of Serenity	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:29:00 - [1881] Edited by: Jalif on 13/12/2008 11:31:56 Edited by: Jalif on 13/12/2008 11:30:48 IF this would have made t2ships/equipment really cheap. And the the prices will go up atleast the 2x. Then I have to say the following to you: - Flying t1 ships is fine... I do it all the time... its maybe time to specialize in 1 race instead training FOTM. - T2 isn't standard, that is t1... what would be else the point of flying t1 (or even having it in the game)? - Newbies or people who are casual players & wanted to enjoy pvp were forced to give out more money & time to get the money togheter before they could begin with pvp. Without making the t2 standard people would have fun with t1 ships. - If this didn't happen, piracy would be more respected & BALANCED! (my proffesion) - CCP has now a lot of disrespect from a lot of players (including myself) - Flying FOTM was the way to go. You just needed the t2 ships & you were able to fly effective. Now its maybe time to specialize in 1 race & those who have maxed skills in 1 race get a boost just because of this. - Maybe less Blobbing? Everybody flies t2 ships (where you don't get insurance from) & the way to reduce the risk of loosing it was flying in large gangs. If everybody was flying t1 ships with t1 equipment... You would see more "fun" & taking chances which could have brought more EPIC fights. There would be no reason to blob if you fly t1 ships with t1 equipment. (you could disagree on this one, but I do think this way) Buff to solo-pvp? These are/were the effects on pvp (my opinion) if it is true that t2 equipment got way to cheap because of this. Working hard to have "little" fun in pvp = wrong Working hard to have a shiny ship = good This is the worst event happening within eve, but it might be the best chance for the game & gameplay itself. -
Kirana Si Tri-Mining Corp	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:37:00 - [1882] So any news apart from Ev0ke being busted ? Who are the others ?
Alton Jin Gallente Astromechanica Maxima Astromechanica Federatis	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:47:00 - [1883] Just destroy all the T2 BPO ingame, the world will be better.
High Ritz	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:49:00 - [1884] I think we have lost perspective. I enjoy Eve. It is a fun game. I have a life outside of Eve complete with a real job, real friends and real money. So many of you are expressing such deep emotional distress over this situation. Maybe it is time for you to quit. Take a break at least. Set some skill that will take a while to complete, then cancel your game. Go outside. Try mountain biking. Take up golf. Tell your wife you love her. Spend some time with your children. Go visit your parents. Discover what is really important.
Rsorh Nalozigur	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:49:00 - [1885] I guess there is no new response from CCP, if yes then can anyone please point me towards that.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:51:00 - [1886] Originally by: Alton Jin Just destroy all the T2 BPO ingame, the world will be better. Oh yeah, sure. And the guy who saved up all his money and paid 30 bil to buy a t2 bpo last week deserves that his gameplay gets destroyed too, right? Besides that, what have t2 bpo's to do with exploiting moon reactions? It is really unbelievable what sh*t people talk if there is just enough uproar made.
whoyoulookingat Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:53:00 - [1887] GREED has created this.. Plain and simple. As for Price hikes - more greed!! CCP have always had the ability to manipulate the market by seeding so if prices become to stupid, don't be surprised to see them flood the market to bring things back in line. Ban those involved & move on.. Give it a few months & this will all be forgotten as some new Drama thread appears _____________________________________ Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
parrawa	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:58:00 - [1888] All have to say to this is BoB and his pets.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:01:00 - [1889] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Alton Jin Just destroy all the T2 BPO ingame, the world will be better. ... Besides that, what have t2 bpo's to do with exploiting moon reactions? Nothing, but when did small things like that ever prevent people from venting against their pet pretend grievance of the day Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Voivode Sha'mael Vengeance Imperium V.I.R.A.L.	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:02:00 - [1890] two alliances involved being Bo and B to make a BoB? - "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them -Book Of Revelation"

MMXMMX Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:02:00 - [1891] Originally by: Arno Villanova I will say it again. Its a game... Get over yourselves... Move on and have fun. Later yes . On this moment No .
Voivode Sha'mael Vengeance Imperium V.I.R.A.L.	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:04:00 - [1892] Originally by: Astro Glyde that is funny as **** tbh. - "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them -Book Of Revelation"
Zlut Gothica	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:08:00 - [1893] Let me tell you a little story... Back in the days, when POS's got added to the EvE Universum, alot of people started setting them up, evn thoo there was no real manual, how to do it correctly from the very beginning. Alot of people missed to set forcefield passwords f.e. wondering, why ships got stolen out of there POS. The POS-bowling-thingy went on for quiet some time and the passive targeting "bug" was also used to quiet some extend etc, etc... So now there was some people setting their POS up to do some reactions, and first it seemed fine (for the first day atleast). But the reactor kept on producing, even after the chains got unlinked and no ressources were put into the silos to maintain the reaction. Hmmm... it sounded very tempting to produce material this way, as nobody seemed to be interested in fixing the clearly broken mechanic, allthough it was reported and not just by a single person as I know. So what to do with the knowledge? Well... letting too many people know about it was'nt very clever, so it was kept very secret. Producing huge amounts of materials was also not an option, as back then there was no invention and you can onlyy produce a limited number of ships and modules from BPO's. The knowing parties also had their hands on real materials, coming from correctly set-up reactors and the possible amount of materials coming from nowhere, would've resulted in dropping prices for Tech 2. So it was decided, to only produce very little material using the broken mechanic for personal profit. This went on until the introduction of invention. Invention... what a gift for those who knew about the broken reactor-mechanic Suddenly more people needed materials, more then you possibly could've used with the BPO's that were limited. More reactors were setup to produce materials from nowhere at this point. Well... nobody cared at this point, that it eventually will get detected sometime, but it did not made any difference to those, who had the knowledge available. After 3+ years playing EvE, you've thought allready about quitting several times, so who cares? All I can say to those, who like to see the people burned who used this "exploit" is: "Get over it!" CCP knew about it for all those years, that's for sure. So ask yourself who's really to blame here. I saw alliances folding, because game-mechanics were used in every possible way and CCP did nothing to prevent it, allthough it was reported again and again and again, who was using which "exploit" etc, pp.. CCP isn't interested really. All they do is some damage-control now and then, if the **** hit's the fan. Why did they suddenly discovered the "exploit" we're talkin' about? Alchemy! We may should've see it coming, but we did'nt care. Those who did got early warning to reset their POS's. Over and out. Fly safe.
Tanx0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:15:00 - [1894] Edited by: Tanx0r on 13/12/2008 12:15:44 Stuff like this only adds to eve's omgwtfbbq fun value imo. I wonder where ferrogel prices will be going now. Probably through the roof. CCP causing total helldeath on scammers, exploiters etc. is always a good laugh. Wish they did the same to ISK sellers. Wait a minute... could the current banned exploiters BE the isk sellers? Would make perfect sense wouldn't it? I mean changing the many many ISK into dollars/euros? Where else would they come up with that much ISK to sell... Linkage to nberleet alliance info and sovereignty maps0rs!!!
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:15:00 - [1895] Some are trying to play down the situation, likely because their own hands are dirty with past deeds and they fear future prosecutions, Others are trying to foster the panic and speculation, probably because they are invested into the market and the usual few refuse to understand anything since they fail to see the importance of a working economy for EVE. Well then there are the others who wait and talk to try to get a grasp of this, since none of us knows enough facts yet to rationally assess the effects of this incident. In my stomach there is a rather uneasy feeling about the fact that CCP described the graveness of the exploit in no weak terms and still has not disclosed further information on even a basic level, two days after the announcement. Just to repeat a few numbers that I looked up in this context: The monthly trade volume in EVE, based on the 3/07 economic report is about 60 Trillion isk, the amount of total currency is 90 trillion. 10% of Pilots each owned more than 10 billion isk in currency alon. A single POS output of Ferrogel priced at 20k isk/unit based on the market before the crisis had a value of 5 billion isk per month. Which sum would merit the expression of "considerable and far reaching" effects ?
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:20:00 - [1896] Originally by: Zlut Gothica Why did they suddenly discovered the "exploit" we're talkin' about? Alchemy! We may should've see it coming, but we did'nt care. Those who did got early warning to reset their POS's. There is just one flaw in this ... sever backups. If CCP is serious about squashing the exploiters then they need to go through their backups and look there also. Besides the market transactions will be mined for 'interesting' transactions as well I hope.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:24:00 - [1897] Originally by: Tanx0r I wonder where ferrogel prices will be going now. Probably through the roof. Ferrogel spiked briefly at ~37000, and is now at ~28000. Incidentally, this is about the same level it was at ~6 months ago. So all in all, a small market hiccup. Nothing more.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kilhu Emmek Minmatar Redshift Industrial	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:26:00 - [1898] This is impossible to "fix." The economic system has been completely hosed, any claims that "oh, the market will be messy for a while but we're confident players will adjust and fix it" are either naivety, incompetence, obfuscation, or a lovely casserole of all three. There is no fixing a "bug" of this magnitude that has been allowed to go on for this long. Eve at this point is a broken game. It will not be possible to track the effects of this exploit and fix them any more than it would be possible to dump poison in a river, wait four years, and then go try to retrieve all the molecules of poison in the ocean and rain. It has tainted the whole game. This just underscores the contrast between CCP and an experienced, professional MMO publisher. Say what you will about Blizzard, EA, et al, this kind of crap does not go on in their games for four years. Just sell the damn game to someone who will run it correctly and do a complete server wipe, let's all start playing with a level playing field. For once. I'm thoroughly disgusted. --
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:29:00 - [1899] Originally by: Kilhu Emmek Rant.... Don't let small things like 'facts' get in the way of your ranting Hint: Look up market prices.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:39:00 - [1900] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/12/2008 12:41:00 Originally by: Kilhu Emmek This just underscores the contrast between CCP and an experienced, professional MMO publisher. Say what you will about Blizzard, EA, et al, this kind of crap does not go on in their games for four years. The timescale and volume this exploit use had, were not confirmed by any believable source yet. Most MMO games simply lack EVEs complexity and server size, yet if this has gone one for more than a few days, one really had to wonder why there was no automated auditing system in place. Checking the difference of the volume of an item in game between two points in time and flagging any values exceeding a plausibility criteria should not be that difficult technically, right ?

Hyperforce99 Gallente Infinite Covenant United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:42:00 - [1901] Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 13/12/2008 12:43:28 when I read the words STARBASE REACTOR MALFUNCTION I thought they were talkin about stations and some form of exploit to make them explode does explain why high end t2 materials were dropping in price so heavily... to make it worse I ended up selling my wares during this time... this must have cost me several hundred million isk... and I was just thinking the market had crashed or something. --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/
Farouq Rizer	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:44:00 - [1902] Damage has been done that can never be reversed. How many systems have been taken by alliances that were able to spew massive captial fleets with this exploit while those who didnt know, fought unwinnable battles? I feel sory for all those alliances that had to fight a army that had an unlimited supply, justice will never be brought to them.
Hroya Gallente StrikerCorp	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:44:00 - [1903] Originally by: Kilhu Emmek Say what you will about Blizzard, EA, et al, this kind of crap does not go on in their games for four years Correct, as soon as EA realised they screwed up their game with "content" that messed it all up, instead of fixing it they just pulled the plug and left 30k+ people behind who dont matter to them one single bit.
Solar Blade	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:04:00 - [1904] Originally by: Hroya Originally by: Kilhu Emmek Say what you will about Blizzard, EA, et al, this kind of crap does not go on in their games for four years Correct, as soon as EA realised they screwed up their game with "content" that messed it all up, instead of fixing it they just pulled the plug and left 30k+ people behind who dont matter to them one single bit. Not just EA, I think some of us might remember Splinter Cell Double Agent as being the buggiest professional PC game to be released on recent times... it took me half a year of waiting before Nvidia finally brought out a patchup that would make my card (8800 GTX) work with that game... and even after that and 2 patches the game was still buggy as hell and hardly playable. 1 map in particuliar would crash every 5 minutes or so, anoying like hell I tell you. So I praise CCP for handeling this and putting such extreme panelties on the offenders.
Zerode	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:07:00 - [1905] This use of exploit is a big issue. Game mechanics have been designed on the ammount of raw materials available and when that amount is part from using exploits that make some corps / allianses bilions (trilions?) is insane. Don't CCP check the isk flow where isk/((char/SP)/onlinetime) is higher than average at all? Then when expoit is fixed the game mechanics is off becuase the ammount of raw materials available is lower. So this is not a "easy" fix as some game mechanics will be off efterwards. Like the amount of raw materials needed to produce a item. The use of exploits should be investigated as far as possible and let the bans fly, as I see it it's better to ban to many than to few.
Wasdasjetzt	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:29:00 - [1906] Edited by: Wasdasjetzt on 13/12/2008 13:30:25 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Tanx0r I wonder where ferrogel prices will be going now. Probably through the roof. Ferrogel spiked briefly at ~37000, and is now at ~28000. Incidentally, this is about the same level it was at ~6 months ago. So all in all, a small market hiccup. Nothing more.... There are about 200 Dys moons in eve +/- 20 We have at least 70 accounts banned, some of them were running up to 10 posses, lets say every account had 5 posses with 2 reactions each produicing high ends like ferrogel. So there were another virtually 700 dys (reactionwise) moons. Now they are gone and cant replaced with new moons cause there are no free dys moons :) So do math yourself what will happen Iam not able to forsee what happens within a month cause of speculations and horted mats. but in 2-3 month price will have trippeld. Last days ppl who had no clue of the explot hence of ccp information politics saw ferrogel raising and sold waht they had or shipped there products faster then normal to jita. The bottleneck will come.
Cown Caldari Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:31:00 - [1907] #1905th \o/ -------------------------------------------------- Welcome to my personal opinion, if you don't like it, i don't give a s***. :-)
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:40:00 - [1908] Originally by: Wasdasjetzt ... The bottleneck will come. Oh yeah .. the sky will fall ... eve will explode ... Do the math yourself. I did it and assumed all high end reactions were replaced by alchemy. The numbers I got from that didn't worry me to much. Looks all okay to me. 30-40% higher prices for invented ships at worst, but that's all. If you are clever, you are already planning ahead now
7Genius Gallente Damage Distribution Incorporated Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:40:00 - [1909] What did you know CCP? and when did you know it?
PuRuSkA	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:41:00 - [1910] Originally by: Wasdasjetzt Edited by: Wasdasjetzt on 13/12/2008 13:30:25 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Tanx0r I wonder where ferrogel prices will be going now. Probably through the roof. Ferrogel spiked briefly at ~37000, and is now at ~28000. Incidentally, this is about the same level it was at ~6 months ago. So all in all, a small market hiccup. Nothing more.... There are about 200 Dys moons in eve +/- 20 We have at least 70 accounts banned, some of them were running up to 10 posses, lets say every account had 5 posses with 2 reactions each produicing high ends like ferrogel. So there were another virtually 700 dys (reactionwise) moons. Now they are gone and cant replaced with new moons cause there are no free dys moons :) So do math yourself what will happen Iam not able to forsee what happens within a month cause of speculations and horted mats. but in 2-3 month price will have trippeld. Last days ppl who had no clue of the explot hence of ccp information politics saw ferrogel raising and sold waht they had or shipped there products faster then normal to jita. The bottleneck will come. i can just tell you price won't triple cause alchemy limit is lower than triple the price ferrogel was some people evaluate it at around 35k/u of ferrogel i did not did the eact math but i know even with curent price spike it is not profitable to do ferrogel with alchemy

Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:49:00 - [1911] Originally by: Wasdasjetzt ...So there were another virtually 700 dys (reactionwise) moons. Now they are gone and cant replaced with new moons cause there are no free dys moons :) There may be no free moons, but there is something called 'Alchemy'... Based on the mechanics of that, we'll in the absolute WORST case see an increase of ~35% in average T2 ship prices (less for modules). The worst case assumes NO stuff AT ALL is mined from ANY of the dysp moons.... Originally by: Wasdasjetzt So do math yourself what will happen. I did... If I did math your way, I'd get fired from my job.... So again, all in all, this is a minor market hiccup, but of.c. some people like to cry that the sky is falling.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.13 13:57:00 - [1912] Originally by: Zlut Gothica Let me tell you a little story... Back in the days, when POS's got added to the EvE Universum, alot of people started setting them up, evn thoo there was no real manual, how to do it correctly from the very beginning. Alot of people missed to set forcefield passwords f.e. wondering, why ships got stolen out of there POS. The POS-bowling-thingy went on for quiet some time and the passive targeting "bug" was also used to quiet some extend etc, etc... So now there was some people setting their POS up to do some reactions, and first it seemed fine (for the first day atleast). But the reactor kept on producing, even after the chains got unlinked and no ressources were put into the silos to maintain the reaction. Hmmm... it sounded very tempting to produce material this way, as nobody seemed to be interested in fixing the clearly broken mechanic, allthough it was reported and not just by a single person as I know. So what to do with the knowledge? Well... letting too many people know about it was'nt very clever, so it was kept very secret. Producing huge amounts of materials was also not an option, as back then there was no invention and you can onlyy produce a limited number of ships and modules from BPO's. The knowing parties also had their hands on real materials, coming from correctly set-up reactors and the possible amount of materials coming from nowhere, would've resulted in dropping prices for Tech 2. So it was decided, to only produce very little material using the broken mechanic for personal profit. This went on until the introduction of invention. Invention... what a gift for those who knew about the broken reactor-mechanic Suddenly more people needed materials, more then you possibly could've used with the BPO's that were limited. More reactors were setup to produce materials from nowhere at this point. Well... nobody cared at this point, that it eventually will get detected sometime, but it did not made any difference to those, who had the knowledge available. After 3+ years playing EvE, you've thought allready about quitting several times, so who cares? All I can say to those, who like to see the people burned who used this "exploit" is: "Get over it!" CCP knew about it for all those years, that's for sure. So ask yourself who's really to blame here. I saw alliances folding, because game-mechanics were used in every possible way and CCP did nothing to prevent it, allthough it was reported again and again and again, who was using which "exploit" etc, pp.. CCP isn't interested really. All they do is some damage-control now and then, if the **** hit's the fan. Why did they suddenly discovered the "exploit" we're talkin' about? Alchemy! We may should've see it coming, but we did'nt care. Those who did got early warning to reset their POS's. Over and out. Fly safe. The way you keep justifiing what the exploiters did, is sad. And you certanly did nothing to prevent it. Petitions does not really go directly yo CCP. Bug repports do, forum do. So yeah, ample of way to make it known. I am just glad a lot of you got kicked out. And about the carelesness? When you get free stuff, you do sotp careing, and it also ruins the game for others eventually.
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.13 14:02:00 - [1913] Edited by: Lrrp on 13/12/2008 14:02:43 So this was a known exploit? Then how about CCP banning all those Titan pilots who DD'd thru a POS shield because they got a hold of the pw? I dare say DD'ing thru a shield caused as much damage as this most recent exploit but no one got their accts. banned because of it. But what the heck, why would you think a entity like CCP would be consistent with it's exploit policy when their own staff perhaps uses the exploit when they play the game. And woot...#1911 post, just like a famous pistol line.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 14:15:00 - [1914] Edited by: chrisss0r on 13/12/2008 14:18:28 Originally by: Wasdasjetzt Last days ppl who had no clue of the explot hence of ccp information politics saw ferrogel raising and sold waht they had or shipped there products faster then normal to jita. The bottleneck will come. Not to forget the Players who used the exploit but changed their poses in time. Actual Ferrogel Prices are kept low by a desperate amount of people who trys to laundry as much iskies as possible for their alts before the banhammer hits them and freezes their assets. In rens Alone which is a minor trade hub 242k Ferrogel were added to the market yesterday
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 14:24:00 - [1915] Originally by: Lrrp So this was a known exploit? Then how about CCP banning all those Titan pilots who DD'd thru a POS shield because they got a hold of the pw? I dare say DD'ing thru a shield caused as much damage as this most recent exploit but no one got their accts. banned because of it. But what the heck, why would you think a entity like CCP would be consistent with it's exploit policy when their own staff perhaps uses the exploit when they play the game. And woot...#1911 post, just like a famous pistol line. Given your alliance ticker, I too would try to deflect attention to other previous exploits.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mint Royale Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.12.13 14:37:00 - [1916] Originally by: Lrrp Edited by: Lrrp on 13/12/2008 14:02:43 So this was a known exploit? Then how about CCP banning all those Titan pilots who DD'd thru a POS shield because they got a hold of the pw? I dare say DD'ing thru a shield caused as much damage as this most recent exploit but no one got their accts. banned because of it. But what the heck, why would you think a entity like CCP would be consistent with it's exploit policy when their own staff perhaps uses the exploit when they play the game. And woot...#1911 post, just like a famous pistol line. How ironic that your analogy of Titan-Bowling causing as much damage as exploiting 3000 Billions is abaut as jammed as said Browning 1911 .45 systems :)
Zlut Gothica	Posted - 2008.12.13 14:49:00 - [1917] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Zlut Gothica Let me tell you a little story... Back in the days, when POS's got added to the EvE Universum, alot of people started setting them up, evn thoo there was no real manual, how to do it correctly from the very beginning. Alot of people missed to set forcefield passwords f.e. wondering, why ships got stolen out of there POS. The POS-bowling-thingy went on for quiet some time and the passive targeting "bug" was also used to quiet some extend etc, etc... So now there was some people setting their POS up to do some reactions, and first it seemed fine (for the first day atleast). But the reactor kept on producing, even after the chains got unlinked and no ressources were put into the silos to maintain the reaction. Hmmm... it sounded very tempting to produce material this way, as nobody seemed to be interested in fixing the clearly broken mechanic, allthough it was reported and not just by a single person as I know. So what to do with the knowledge? Well... letting too many people know about it was'nt very clever, so it was kept very secret. Producing huge amounts of materials was also not an option, as back then there was no invention and you can onlyy produce a limited number of ships and modules from BPO's. The knowing parties also had their hands on real materials, coming from correctly set-up reactors and the possible amount of materials coming from nowhere, would've resulted in dropping prices for Tech 2. So it was decided, to only produce very little material using the broken mechanic for personal profit. This went on until the introduction of invention. Invention... what a gift for those who knew about the broken reactor-mechanic Suddenly more people needed materials, more then you possibly could've used with the BPO's that were limited. More reactors were setup to produce materials from nowhere at this point. Well... nobody cared at this point, that it eventually will get detected sometime, but it did not made any difference to those, who had the knowledge available. After 3+ years playing EvE, you've thought allready about quitting several times, so who cares? All I can say to those, who like to see the people burned who used this "exploit" is: "Get over it!" CCP knew about it for all those years, that's for sure. So ask yourself who's really to blame here. I saw alliances folding, because game-mechanics were used in every possible way and CCP did nothing to prevent it, allthough it was reported again and again and again, who was using which "exploit" etc, pp.. CCP isn't interested really. All they do is some damage-control now and then, if the **** hit's the fan. Why did they suddenly discovered the "exploit" we're talkin' about? Alchemy! We may should've see it coming, but we did'nt care. Those who did got early warning to reset their POS's. Over and out. Fly safe. The way you keep justifiing what the exploiters did, is sad. And you certanly did nothing to prevent it. Petitions does not really go directly yo CCP. Bug repports do, forum do. So yeah, ample of way to make it known. I am just glad a lot of you got kicked out. And about the carelesness? When you get free stuff, you do sotp careing, and it also ruins the game for others eventually. I do not justify, nor do I blame someone for using the "exploit". I was only telling a little story Those who cared about it, that they'll eventually get spotted are still playing, those who did'nt care about it do not play anymore. It's easy as that. P.S.: If CCP do a little research, then there'll be eventually more people get banned. But this isn't going to happen, as the community allready have a few "scapegoats" to burn and throw stones at. That's enough for CCP to cover behind
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:16:00 - [1918] You cheated we need to get over it = wrong. You cheated you should get banned you knew the risk you get over it = rigt. Pick one CCP. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Zlut Gothica	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:24:00 - [1919] Originally by: Valan You cheated we need to get over it = wrong. You cheated you should get banned you knew the risk you get over it = rigt. Pick one CCP. You don't get the point of it. It does not make any difference to those, who got banned. The only thing that get's pointed out again by this little drama is, that CCP could'nt care less about it. As I said, those who bailed out before the investigation started won't get banned, those who didn't bail out simply had no interest in playing anymore. Who's the looser? You.
Carserea	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:28:00 - [1920] To paraphrase Winston Churchill: Never in the field of MMO conflict has so much been whined by so many about so few.

Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:33:00 - [1921] Originally by: Valan You cheated we need to get over it = wrong. You cheated you should get banned you knew the risk you get over it = rigt. Pick one CCP. So essentially you're saying that CCP should spend many months worth of man-hours, and ban everyone who profited from this? Including: a. The people who sold stuff to the exploiters? b. The people who bought stuff from the exploiters? c. The people who sold GTC's to the exploiters? d. The people who got cheap T2 ships and equipment because of this? e. etc. etc. The people directly involved in this are already banned. If CCP can find any proof against the indirectly involved people, they'll get banned too. Anyone else will walk free, even if they're guilty. This is actually how a fair system should work, but is of.c. not acceptable to the bloodthirsty lynch-mob... So basically, CCP chose your 2nd option, which infers me to believe you want the 1st. Did your mains get banned lately (like a few days ago)??? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:42:00 - [1922] Originally by: Kerfira The people directly involved in this are already banned. AHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:43:00 - [1923] Originally by: Kerfira The people directly involved in this are already banned. Where do you get that impression from ? We only know that some (70 Accounts) are banned yet. How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ?
padraig animal Minmatar Vanguard Frontiers Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:49:00 - [1924] Guess they did a check on the isk ect tho 4 years is a lot of time to move isk that you make true a exploit
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:50:00 - [1925] Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 15:51:28 Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
GFLSandman Minmatar It Burns When I PVP Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:53:00 - [1926] well it is about time a solution was found for the market being so screwed up. hell i remember way back when... when you couldn't touch a unit of megacyte for less than 20k. maybe we now will start to make isk in the game again.... now if something can be done about Johnny macro miner and the isk sellers we would be spot on.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:56:00 - [1927] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 15:51:28 Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for.
Hecate Shaw Caldari United Freemerchants Society	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:03:00 - [1928] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 13/12/2008 12:41:00 Originally by: Kilhu Emmek This just underscores the contrast between CCP and an experienced, professional MMO publisher. Say what you will about Blizzard, EA, et al, this kind of crap does not go on in their games for four years. The timescale and volume this exploit use had, were not confirmed by any believable source yet. Most MMO games simply lack EVEs complexity and server size, yet if this has gone one for more than a few days, one really had to wonder why there was no automated auditing system in place. What would you have them automate? Tracking every bit of raw material produced and constantly looking for items produced with materials that shouldn't exist would slaughter server performance; anything less wouldn't work because there is no requirement that materials "mined" be used immediately. They would expect input and output numbers to be off, almost all the time. Originally by: Talsha Talamar Checking the difference of the volume of an item in game between two points in time and flagging any values exceeding a plausibility criteria should not be that difficult technically, right ? The market hits a low, people start stockpiling 50% of the materials they mine, and your detector goes nuts. Same thing happens when the market evens out and everyone starts leaking that stored material onto the market. Same happens when some alliance starts stockpiling to prepare for a major push. Now add in alchemy. If you make your "plausibility criteria" less sensitive, you won't be detecting anything anyway; there is no way to know how long such a cycle would last, either, so there is no way to judge how much time to put between your reference points. Most likely, you'd have to set it to a matter of months at least. Not worth the lag, IMO. Stercus accidit
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:03:00 - [1929] Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:04:53 Originally by: GuntiNDDS Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for. And you have no proof against it either, which makes my statement have just as much chance as yours to be true... I base my statement on what the responsible authority (CCP) says. If they'd wanted to cover something up, they'd have simply closed this loophole without mentioning it. They didn't! Of.c. the tinfoil brigade (you included) will never believe that CCP is not doing their best (which is in their financial interest). Reasonable people however will... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:10:00 - [1930] Edited by: chrisss0r on 13/12/2008 16:13:41 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:04:53 Originally by: GuntiNDDS Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for. And you have no proof against it either, which makes my statement have just as much chance as yours to be true... I base my statement on what the responsible authority (CCP) says. If they'd wanted to cover something up, they'd have simply closed this loophole without mentioning it. They didn't! Of.c. the tinfoil brigade (you included) will never believe that CCP is not doing their best (which is in their financial interest). Reasonable people however will... Sorry but i don't find any ccp statement that says they banned everyone involved, they themself say they will look deeper into it. And don't you see quite a difference in you saying "all of them are banned!!!!!!" and others saying "there MIGHT be more?" And yes i believe they will try to find every cheater but question is what happens to the alliance assets. What if ccp finds out like 40% of the assets a major alliance has a directly created by a corp in that alliance and produced out of thin air. Will they terminate the assets or will they leave it alone to not **** up all the uninvolved players. Also you have to consider that many parties owning moones might only have them due to this exploit, so they can now profit even more from it

Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:16:00 - [1931] Originally by: chrisss0r Sorry but i don't find any ccp statement that says they banned everyone involved, they themself say they will look deeper into it. It takes a very focused tinfoil brain to believe that in spite of it being in their financial interest, CCP would NOT ban all involved, thus the inference that they did in fact do so. Originally by: chrisss0r And don't you see quite a difference in you saying "all of them are banned!!!!!!" and others saying "there MIGHT be more?" I didn't use exclamation marks.... And no, there's no substantial difference. My remark is based the belief that a commercial company will do what is in its financial interest, the other that there is a huge conspiracy going on about an internet spaceship game.... In essence, the main difference is that I don't wear a tinfoil hat... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:18:00 - [1932] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:04:53 Originally by: GuntiNDDS Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... i did not said there were, i said there might be, while you said all directly involved were banned. Something you have no proof for. And you have no proof against it either, which makes my statement have just as much chance as yours to be true... I base my statement on what the responsible authority (CCP) says. If they'd wanted to cover something up, they'd have simply closed this loophole without mentioning it. They didn't! Of.c. the tinfoil brigade (you included) will never believe that CCP is not doing their best (which is in their financial interest). Reasonable people however will... you incline that ccp said their investigations and banning of accounts were complete. they did not. actually they gave hint that more accounts may be banned.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:20:00 - [1933] Edited by: chrisss0r on 13/12/2008 16:23:09 Edited by: chrisss0r on 13/12/2008 16:20:32 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 16:17:23 It takes a very focused tinfoil brain to believe that in spite of it being in their financial interest, CCP would NOT ban all involved, thus the inference that they did in fact do so. Yay and it take a stupid idiot like you to believe they already know everyone who was directly involved. Maybe every ALT that was directly involved but for ****ing sure not everyone involved. Suuuure those Corps operating freely in 0.0, not part of an alliance and making trillions of isk were not connected to any alliance. HAHA It's like saying the police for sure arrest everyone who commits a crime cause it is in their best interest.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 16:20:00 - [1934] Originally by: Venkul Mul You want an hypothetical example of a "considerable and far reaching" effect that you can get in a limited spawn of time and without so many people involved? If a single POS exploiting can generate over 8 billions in a month 25 such POS (very easy to manage by 5 players) in two months would have generate 400 billions. Now our "friends", unused to such wealth, spend some of it but don't know what to do with the rest (or simply want to try to secure it against discovery) and using some alt, deposit it in EBank. CCP investigate and seize the assets of this guys and all the alts. EBank suddenly lose 350 billions from the liquid assets, losing almost all the reserve to pay for withdrawals. So they need to sell assets and recall loans. And that will damage investitors and people that have asked for the loans, with an added risk of a bank run and stunting of the EBank for months to come. "considerable and far reaching" consequences without the need of a long exploiting period. There are several scenarios where some month of this exploit can have "considerable and far reaching" consequences without the need of it being in effect for years. Edit. Looking a post by Bunyip (I hope the spelling is right) another and this almost certainly real effect felt by a lot of players can have been the high prices of GTC brought with isk. As soon as the exploiter started doing this they almost certainly started paying the accounts they have with GTC and opening even more accounts the same way. So the recent rise in GTC prices can be partially a consequence of this exploit. Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. To produce any significant impact you need at least amounts in the order of tens of trillions ISK, which are not easy to dump in the market in a small amount of time. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Carter VanSandt Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:07:00 - [1935] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. .... Ah.... yeah... you are rich. _______________________________________________ I SURVIVED FERROGATE 2008!
Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:38:00 - [1936] Edited by: Knawt Ongrid on 13/12/2008 17:39:35 Originally by: Carter VanSandt Originally by: Etho Demerzel Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. .... Ah.... yeah... you are rich. Yeah, pfft, 50 mil. Who doesn't have that? Oh, "bil"
IHateMyJob	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:42:00 - [1937] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/12/2008 15:51:28 Originally by: GuntiNDDS How do you know there werent alot more people -directly- involved into it ? How do you know there were? You one of them? Throwing up tinfoil conspiracy theories doesn't make them true... CCP stated that they took down accounts, destroyed POS's and wiped assets of corporations set up ONLY to do this... I'm sure there are most likely others that are doing it without being covert.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.13 17:48:00 - [1938] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Gamer4liff You don't mind paying 3x for T2 goods? Care to share your calculations with us? A quick calculation on my side shows that with alchemy ferogel will be around 40-45k. That is roughly twice as expensive as a few weeks ago. I suspect fermionic condensates around 70k and hypersynaptic fibers at 8k. With these numbers a rapier costs around 20-25 mil more to build with invention. That is 45% more. Not 400%. I can understand that some people want market panic so that they can sell their stuff much overpriced, but they hysteria about insane expensive t2 mods and the end of the world is just absurd. Ships will become 50% more expensive at worst, modules will be affected that a bit less. And that is if ONLY alchemy is used and no dys supply at all comming in on the market. With the still ongoing supply from 0.0 prices will rise even less. Don't 'sperg out dude, I was replying to his post where he said he wouldn't mind paying 3x for T2 goods. I know damn well things will probably only go up 1.5x-2x. Quote: Get real. The effects from this will be gone in a few weeks as prices stabilise. The large majority of EVE (except for a few whiners) will simply adapt to the new reality. They'll cry a little more when losing a T2 ship, and they'll laugh a little more when killing one.... This is a GAME, not something important..... As long as everyone is playing on the same playing field it doesn't matter that the playing field now is a little rougher. In fact it is beneficial for the game. Oh look the traditional adapt or die argument, how quaint. Well guess what this isn't a matter of adaptation, this is a matter of how much the game has been tainted by the actions of those players. To shrug off years of ill-gotten capital fleets and 0.0 victories to say everything will be peachy is ridiculous, the face of 0.0 politics has been irreversibly tainted. Maybe you're okay with people having a virtually limitless supply of wealth to prop up their alliances that would have failed, but I'm not.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.13 18:49:00 - [1939] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Sorry, but you are delllusional. 400 billion ISK is nothing for Eve economy. Eve Bank to bankrupt is nothing for eve economy as well. I have about 50 Bil myself and I am not by any standards even rich. And I am a single person. lol. To produce any significant impact you need at least amounts in the order of tens of trillions ISK, which are not easy to dump in the market in a small amount of time. And your definition of "considerable and far reaching" is based on what meter? Only when it is the equivalent of a word war or a global recession?
Garok Nor Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.12.13 18:59:00 - [1940] Originally by: Irongut Originally by: Gambuk Why the pearl Harbor reference? I dont think an exploit in a game even comes close to being able to use that. Regardless of how serious it is.. Because Cubba Gooding Jr should have had a bigger part. Btw the world did exist for a few billion years before the USA. Could it be they had another historical event in mind? No surely not, only American history is important. Probably because with exception of the year, that is an exact quote from a US Presidential radio address, regarding the attack on Pearl Harbour. If CCP had just said on Dec 7th we found some bad stuff, perhaps I would agree with you. But compare "Dec 7th 1941, a day which will live in infamy" with "Dec 7th 2008, a day which will live in infamy". The Pearl Harbour reference is obvious to anybody not trolling or being obtuse (either intentionally or not). FWIW, I'm not American ------------------------------------------------- Items posted by me are in no way a reflection of the policies and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance. {though they maybe really ought to be}

Amarkon	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:07:00 - [1941] It's hard to feel sorry for the wealthy in Eve, especially if that wealth is gained by cheating. Must be a bummer to put in years of effort, time and such just to now find yourself smacked in the head with the ban bat. ROFL If you don't like that comment, good. I don't need your long mental post reply, just buh bye.
Kirgan Caldari Pyrognome	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:32:00 - [1942] CCP says accounts banned ,POS's destroyed , etc... They have lied about several exploits and cheating until it was eventually brought out by players. Hard to believe they have done anything except partially admit it. As a result it's going to be real hard to look at any Alliance in the game and not consider them a joke or low rent cheaters. At the very least CCP needs to make public the names and Alliances involved so that the ones that got where they are from actual effort don't suffer the same stigma. Though if they actually took action we would see some dissolved Alliances and member corps. That would also have to include their pet Alliances, we all know who they are. Quote: Two Reasons Why It's So Hard To Solve A Redneck Murder. 1. The DNA all matches. 2. There are no dental records.
Dr Chicago	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:35:00 - [1943] This scam kind of makes the selling and buying of ISK on the web seem fairly petty, unless the current exploit was used to sell ISK on the web for cash, not condoning the behavior just pointing that out... But isn't finding exploits and exploiting them for profit the motivator of Capitalism in its raw form, seems kind of hypocritical to lash out at a community for using the sandbox tools that were available, capitalism rewards ingenuity and risky behavior. A slap on the wrist and a fine would be SOP. D C
Gromilia	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:39:00 - [1944] I have been reading this post 65 pages and a question i would like to ask CCP is can flipping an exploit or is it apart of the game mechanics ? If CCP had known for the last 4 years of this exploit why didnt they do something about it then. And this is not the first time that CCP had made this sort of a mistake.What about Ghost Training it had taken them 5 years to findout it was a bug but ccp let that bug go for 5 years. CCP before you release a new major patch please go over it with a fine tooth comb and look for all possible bugs and exploits. So that the eve community would not suffer from been banned because someone in CCP did not do their job. I am not trying to bag CCP but someone has to let them know that these things should not happen.
Mandilater	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:49:00 - [1945] Wow CCP = Fisher Pryce my first software development
POS Trader	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:51:00 - [1946] Edited by: POS Trader on 13/12/2008 19:53:41 Originally by: Gamer4liff Maybe you're okay with people having a virtually limitless supply of wealth to prop up their alliances that would have failed, but I'm not. People ***ing about this, *** in RL more than about EVE as so far is less messed up than the magic world of RL banking. Edit: Didn't know that b-word was a censored word in eve universe!
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:02:00 - [1947] Edited by: OffBeaT on 13/12/2008 20:05:45 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: OffBeaT Originally by: Kerfira My post you gota be joking right! think about the newer players or mid range players who grind the game out day in and day out who wont to beable to afford somthing nice for there ships without buying isk to have to do it.. Correction.... They'll still be able to buy lots of nice stuff, but the available range of goods just got stretched out a bit with regard to affordability. Game mechanics wise, it will be a GOOD thing for T2 to get more expensive, as it'll: 1. Make people cry a little more as they lose it 2. Make people gloat a little more when they kill it 3. Give more people something higher to strive for 4. Make flying T2 something of a bragging item In other words, it'll insert a little more emotion into people's gameplay, which is all that really matters. Look further than your own nose, please..... what eve planet are you on.. huh! first off the high cost of t2 would make combat less attractive to to mid range players it shoure would to me.. 2nd: as i do not know what large corp your main is a member of but not all corps can compet with high isk corps so they like me cant attract new members into their corps becouse they cant afford the cost of mods to aid them. 3rd: t1 mods unless they are the real high cost ones dont get the job done in combat unless its blob war. 4th: i dont brag when i lose a 250mil t2 bs and i dont know anyone who dose. 5th: my nose is out of my ass as a am i down to earth eve gammer and think about the noobs/mid range players who dog this game out day in and out. we dont all have 10 accounts or corps with 100 members so think on that will yea. they have the right to get somthing out of eve aswell i would think.
Makhan	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:08:00 - [1948] Originally by: Gromilia I have been reading this post 65 pages and a question i would like to ask CCP is can flipping an exploit or is it apart of the game mechanics ? If CCP had known for the last 4 years of this exploit why didnt they do something about it then. And this is not the first time that CCP had made this sort of a mistake.What about Ghost Training it had taken them 5 years to findout it was a bug but ccp let that bug go for 5 years. CCP before you release a new major patch please go over it with a fine tooth comb and look for all possible bugs and exploits. So that the eve community would not suffer from been banned because someone in CCP did not do their job. I am not trying to bag CCP but someone has to let them know that these things should not happen. I think you're confused, nobody with any intelligence gives a flying f' about either of those things, this actually matters.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:08:00 - [1949] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 13/12/2008 20:09:14 CCP - Exactly how many years the exploit has been in game? In other words, not the amount of time the exploit has been abused, but the number of years this exploit has been available for abuse. This will give us a rough estimate, a very rough one, as to the damage. Easily done, since CCP will know if they ever fixed the POS code in previous years related to the exploit. If last week was the first time they have actually fixed it - then the contention that this exploit was in game since the inception of POS (about 4 years) is a correct one. Was the ISK used in RMT? Because, if this exploit has been present for even 2-3 years, then the amount of ISK skimmed from the game is indeed in many, many trillions of ISK (that' thousands of billions). And not all of it could simply go into infrastructure support and in game wars. This will further allow us to glean the extend of "organized crime like activity" that was going in big alliances. I do not believe for a second the Ev0ke's leadership excuses that "we did not know" and it "was just a few of us." When you run an alliance, hell when you run a corporation of any kind, whether you are a carebear or a PVPer, you will see ISK coming in in large quantities, you will know that something is up. Nor would I believe any other leadership or alliances that say we only had a few "bad" guys. If they have benefited, then they are guilty. Confiscate ALL alliance property, and ALL corporate property. Trace ALL assets moved in and out of the corporate and alliance possession for the last couple of years, and confiscate that. And, CCP , do not ban them, let them remain in game, put a hold on their ability to sell the characters, and just give us their names. Seriously, take away all their ill gotten gains, all BPOs, minerals, ISK, everything, post the names publicly, and leave them in their space - things will happen soon enough. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Jonathan Smythe	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:21:00 - [1950] Edited by: Jonathan Smythe on 13/12/2008 20:23:19 I really love this! Enraged and indignated voices calling for blood and full disclosure. Let the heads roll! Demands for better control of economic factors to detect fraud. Why didn't the economists see this happen all along? What¦s going to happen to the T2 market? What will the Council do? It¦s really fantastic to see the current IRL crisis mirrored in EVE. This is why this game is so totally different. Real economy, real scams, real scandals and real indignation, real politics, even real moral issues. You got to love it when it gets this good.

Val Torek	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:26:00 - [1951] One question: How far back does CCP actually keep logs? This would give us our time frame. Thus the number of violations can be determined. I guess if it is only one year, then some will get away with it PS: On a personal note. Just glad it isn't happening any more
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:38:00 - [1952] I will eat my hat if our German friends at Ev0ke were the only ones involved. With something like this, it has to be most of the large 0.0 entities. What saddens me is that now even the honest guys who were going against all odds are suspect. Not one power bloc in 0.0 can now be trusted with their achievements, since it is all tainted by this exploit. How can we say that BoB, or Goonswarm, or AAA, or RA, or just take any other 0.0 entity, was able to do what they did without thinking of 0.0/Free ISK/POS Exploit. I am not saying they all did, and the alliance names above are just first few that entered my head when I think 0.0, but, with the extent of what is going on, I am very suspicious that the wealth and power those entities have accumulated are not necessarily due their actual prowess, but with their abilities to cheat the system and control free ISK faucets of the moon mining abuse.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:54:00 - [1953] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 13/12/2008 20:55:30 Originally by: Jonathan Smythe I really love this! Enraged and indignated voices calling for blood and full disclosure. Let the heads roll! Demands for better control of economic factors to detect fraud. Why didn't the economists see this happen all along? What¦s going to happen to the T2 market? What will the Council do? It¦s really fantastic to see the current IRL crisis mirrored in EVE. This is why this game is so totally different. Real economy, real scams, real scandals and real indignation, real politics, even real moral issues. You got to love it when it gets this good. I love it too, but when I think about the amount of ISK I have personally lost due to this exploit my blood starts to boil. I have been very closely involved in trading the T2 related items for the last few years. I have also dabbled in moon mining, and some other stuff. But, some things were simply just too strange for a number of years, and I thought that some "other" market forces were behind it. Now I know better, now I know why I have made 150 Million ISK instead of 400 Million ISK. Now I know why some of my T2 stuff was simply unsalable, now I know why I could not make heads or tails of the "reactions" market in Jita while running my own moon mining operation, and what I attributed to regular market manipulation turned out to be a massive undercutting process fueled by cheaters. A lot of inconsistencies are now making more sense than before. This thing has affected almost everyone in EVE. This exploit made EVE into a single player game for those who cheated, since they had the "God Mode" on, and we were the NPC AI. This exploit has taken away the ability to compete for many of us. So, yea, I want them skinned and then I want salt poured all over them. Too bad it is not possible. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
POS Trader	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:17:00 - [1954] Originally by: Jinx Barker Now I know better, now I know why I have made 150 Million ISK instead of 400 Million ISK. Now I know why some of my T2 stuff was simply unsalable, That is not the reason. If you made stuff like Ferrogel and Fermionic Condesates, then you are nuts as silo full of the intermediates would be in billions worth. Also, if you are talking about 150m instead of 400m, well, then you haven't been affected by the scam at all as T2 production through invention is not affected. I would argue that the cheaper fake ferrogel made T2 more disposable making more ISK for all T2 producers/inventors. So, that leaves the dysprosium and similar moon holders. These would be out of luck. BUT most of these moons are held by the large alliances so in effect. So, what's the dillio? Alchemy is also something that would be hurt by this exploit. But seriously, the only people that were hurt by this exploit are the rare mineral moon holders. The benefactors would be all of eve community with reduced T2 prices. Now, alchemy is the only hope for T2 items, or there will not be any T2 items, no matter what the price.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:29:00 - [1955] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 13/12/2008 21:31:39 Originally by: POS Trader Originally by: Jinx Barker Now I know better, now I know why I have made 150 Million ISK instead of 400 Million ISK. Now I know why some of my T2 stuff was simply unsalable, That is not the reason. If you made stuff like Ferrogel and Fermionic Condesates, then you are nuts as silo full of the intermediates would be in billions worth. Also, if you are talking about 150m instead of 400m, well, then you haven't been affected by the scam at all as T2 production through invention is not affected. I would argue that the cheaper fake ferrogel made T2 more disposable making more ISK for all T2 producers/inventors. So, that leaves the dysprosium and similar moon holders. These would be out of luck. BUT most of these moons are held by the large alliances so in effect. So, what's the dillio? Alchemy is also something that would be hurt by this exploit. But seriously, the only people that were hurt by this exploit are the rare mineral moon holders. The benefactors would be all of eve community with reduced T2 prices. Now, alchemy is the only hope for T2 items, or there will not be any T2 items, no matter what the price. When I said "now I know why I have made 150 Million ISK instead of 400 Million" I was referring in general terms to the ratios of my profit when engaged in trading. I was doing allot of reselling, and middle trading. So, it did affect me and many others. EVE community benefited from low T2 prices? I can agree with you on that, to an extent. EVe community came to view T2 items as T1, when T2 was always supposed to be "special." There was a glut of it, and now.... well... But, low T2 prices hurt me. Or rather, undervaluation of T2 stuff hurt me. The stuff wasn't just "low" it was a "throwaway low." I do agree with this: "alchemy is the only hope for T2 items, or there will not be any T2 items, no matter what the price" - since I am fairly certain that this thing has been in game for a long time, this will mean that the markets were over-saturated with T2 of all sorts, with the closing of this, certainly widely-used, exploit we are in for a very rough time when it comes to most T2 items. So, yea it did hurt me a lot, since I actually had an entire chain of production, that started from Moon Minerals, and ended in my factories making T2 stuff. And, it did hurt me when I wanted to play on other T2 reselling. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Lucjan	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:36:00 - [1956] So did CCP make a cool event like a giant indestructible fleet of Jove ships comes out and destroys the Starbases? Or just poofed out of existance.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:40:00 - [1957] Originally by: Lucjan So did CCP make a cool event like a giant indestructible fleet of Jove ships comes out and destroys the Starbases? Or just poofed out of existance. GM/CCP probably used Polaris frigates and just insta-popped them. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:51:00 - [1958] Originally by: Venkul Mul And your definition of "considerable and far reaching" is based on what meter? Only when it is the equivalent of a word war or a global recession? Around this. "Far reaching" in specific means something that has profound impact in several levels of the economy. That is not something easy to do. If CCP gives you 400 Bil ISK and tell you to try and mess with the market, rest assured the impact of your actions, no matter how much you try, won't be anywhere near what happened here. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:55:00 - [1959] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Venkul Mul And your definition of "considerable and far reaching" is based on what meter? Only when it is the equivalent of a word war or a global recession? Around this. "Far reaching" in specific means something that has profound impact in several levels of the economy. That is not something easy to do. If CCP gives you 400 Bil ISK and tell you to try and mess with the market, rest assured the impact of your actions, no matter how much you try, won't be anywhere near what happened here. What if they gave me 3 Trillion? Over 4 years, you'd probably never see the impact... but all at once I'm sure it would be drastic. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.13 22:03:00 - [1960] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Venkul Mul And your definition of "considerable and far reaching" is based on what meter? Only when it is the equivalent of a word war or a global recession? Around this. "Far reaching" in specific means something that has profound impact in several levels of the economy. That is not something easy to do. If CCP gives you 400 Bil ISK and tell you to try and mess with the market, rest assured the impact of your actions, no matter how much you try, won't be anywhere near what happened here. What if they gave me 3 Trillion? Over 4 years, you'd probably never see the impact... but all at once I'm sure it would be drastic. That is exactly what I mean. For it to be defined as "far reaching" it must account for at least several trillions. Possibly tens of trillions. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.13 22:54:00 - [1961] Originally by: POS Trader ...But seriously, the only people that were hurt by this exploit are the rare mineral moon holders. The benefactors would be all of eve community with reduced T2 prices... Also hurt 1. People slaughtered by cap ship fleets paid for by cheaters. Good players die to cheaters with titans and MS and free HACs and free BS. 2. People probably buy up T2 BPO and get even more isk. Probably use free isk to manipulate prices. Pump and dump. Buy all zydrine, crash the price, easy to do with free isk, then buy it all back and double the price. Many more tricks when you ave free isk, and you destroys economy with fake results. 3. Average people must buy the same minerals like Trit, so they compete with cheaters for the same things, and the cheaters can buy at any price, while others can't. They can buy it all and build titans and everyone else is more expensive. The whole economy is a lie. People were hurted from the newb frig to cap ships, and miners to ship builders. All were hurted. I want them to die, and their friends too. Kill them all from the game.
Kilhu Emmek Minmatar Redshift Industrial	Posted - 2008.12.13 23:13:00 - [1962] Edited by: Kilhu Emmek on 13/12/2008 23:13:47 Originally by: Innocent II The whole economy is a lie. So is the cake. But my papal friend is absolutely right. Might be time for a little "visualized math" here. If I gave you a million bucks and told you to spend a thousand bucks a day, you'd run out in a little under three years. If I gave you a billion dollars and told you to do the same thing--spend a thousand a day--you wouldn't run out for close to three THOUSAND years. I don't even want to think about a trillion. How much did your last ship cost you? Set of implants? Faction gear? GTC? Does anyone really think this exploit hasn't had a direct and lasting effect on the game economy? This is just totally game wrecking ****. There is nothing they can do to balance the economy or take away the advantage this has given those who benefited from it at any time in the past four years. And at this point, the sudden shortfall in the items these exploiters used is going to hose the economy even more. This makes macro-miners look like the "send me 1 isk" scammers in Jita in by comparison. GG. (edit: RAGETYPO) --
Lara Dantreb New Horizons	Posted - 2008.12.13 23:15:00 - [1963] Originally by: Jinx Barker Now I know why some of my T2 stuff was simply unsalable, now I know why I could not make heads or tails of the "reactions" market in Jita while running my own moon mining operation, and what I attributed to regular market manipulation turned out to be a massive undercutting process fueled by cheaters. Jinx, My corp was involved in reacting materials bought from Jita [we had only : 1 platinum, 1 cadmium and 1 chromium moon) from POS day #90 to the moment when dysprosium prices passed 30.000 isks per unit We ran up to 35 Large Caldari POS in one system, 4 to 6 were producting ferrogel while 3 were producing fermionic condensates, the other making all the other composites with all these materials we were making T2 components, around 2 to 3 millions components per month. They were hard to sell, so month after month our stock growed, the small part sold generating enough income to keep the business running. we were waiting for the day when the demand for these components would explode, this occured 2 times : when invention came, and when T2 BS were implemented. Each time we made hundreds of billions selling components (before invention reactor were selling 28k to 32k, after they reached 132.000 isks. We produced reactors for years at a cost of 12.500 isks pu (dysprosium was 5000 isks pu). Same for all the other T2 comps. I estimate my corp made more than 1.000 billions iks with that pos chain, because we waited for better days instead of pushing the prices down that's why I can't agree with you : you not made 400 but 150 because of cheaters, but due to your own management. Just before invention we had 40 millions T2 components stockpilled. Even today, one year after our POS chain been dismantled, we still have some of these older stacks of comps that are used for our T2 ship production. the cheaters did not kill the market during 4 years, but sometimes before invention, and again for the 8 last months (see ferrogel price history)
Rupicolous Higher Ground	Posted - 2008.12.13 23:15:00 - [1964] . I'm not the least bit surprised after reading the post. . After the first month of playing I quickly realized we play in a virtual reality that is controlled by many factors outside of the game itself. . Exploits and GTC funding are just (2) obvious realities that control this world of unfair atvantages. . As for time invested into the game ......... virtually worthless. . .
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.14 00:20:00 - [1965] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/12/2008 00:20:43 Originally by: Lara Dantreb Jinx, My corp was involved in reacting materials bought from Jita [we had only : 1 platinum, 1 cadmium and 1 chromium moon) from POS day #90 to the moment when dysprosium prices passed 30.000 isks per unit We ran up to 35 Large Caldari POS in one system, 4 to 6 were producting ferrogel while 3 were producing fermionic condensates, the other making all the other composites with all these materials we were making T2 components, around 2 to 3 millions components per month. They were hard to sell, so month after month our stock growed, the small part sold generating enough income to keep the business running. we were waiting for the day when the demand for these components would explode, this occured 2 times : when invention came, and when T2 BS were implemented. Each time we made hundreds of billions selling components (before invention reactor were selling 28k to 32k, after they reached 132.000 isks. We produced reactors for years at a cost of 12.500 isks pu (dysprosium was 5000 isks pu). Same for all the other T2 comps. I estimate my corp made more than 1.000 billions iks with that pos chain, because we waited for better days instead of pushing the prices down that's why I can't agree with you : you not made 400 but 150 because of cheaters, but due to your own management. Just before invention we had 40 millions T2 components stockpilled. Even today, one year after our POS chain been dismantled, we still have some of these older stacks of comps that are used for our T2 ship production. the cheaters did not kill the market during 4 years, but sometimes before invention, and again for the 8 last months (see ferrogel price history) I find highly unlikely that you profited 1 trillion ISK with only 3 mid end moons, bute lets give you the benefit of the doubt. Even if what you are saying is true, the 3 moons were completely irrelevant in the process. I go further, if you bought huge quantities of dysprosium and prometium to react later, having the foresight that they would explode, and the capital to back up this foresight, you could have done the same with ferrogel and fermionics to the same results with far less work. So in truth you gained absolutely nothing by reacting and babysitting 35 POSes. You earned your money basically buying low and selling high, which is pure trading. The part above is just to show you that you are no smarter that poor Jinx that had his business trashed. Now to the fun part. If the cheaters didn't have access to unlimited resources, you wouldn't have been able to do it. It is obvious they oversupplied the market, which should be impossible given the damand and rarity of those materials, and slacked off at some critical points, failing to anticipate the increase in demand, thus enabling you to profit. So you were one of the few trully benefitted by the process. Considering you were unaware of their activities (at least I trust you were), you were very lucky, because an otherwise disastrous decision turned into a huge profit, thanks to the magic fluctuations of supply. Now don't try to compare yourself with poor T2 producers with a few hundred million ISKs in capital. T2 ships and modules' prices have been steadly declining without any huge fluctuations that would enable him to do anything remotely similar to what you did. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Chen Mubai	Posted - 2008.12.14 00:36:00 - [1966] Edited by: Chen Mubai on 14/12/2008 00:36:56 Originally by: Rupicolous . Exploits and GTC funding are just (2) obvious realities that control this world of unfair atvantages. . As for time invested into the game ......... virtually worthless. Time invested in a game is always worthless, dummy. It's a game. It's worth only the fun you had playing it. lol Unless you expected to get the time back, or be able to trade it in future, etc. But the other point is valid - there are unfair advantages: Exploits - obviously GTCs - using real life money to affect in game stuff always sucks Buy and selling of toons - again, real life money to gain an edge T1 Loot - makes the T1 market unaccessible to noob traders / manufacturers etc. Anyway, i call shame on CCP, but i'm willing to wait for the facts to come out before I get my pitchfork.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.14 00:47:00 - [1967] Originally by: Kilhu Emmek ...Does anyone really think this exploit hasn't had a direct and lasting effect on the game economy? Yes, it had a direct effect. No it won't have a lasting effect! If it HAD a lasting effect, then T2 prices WOULDN'T rise as we know they will. Originally by: Kilhu Emmek This is just totally game wrecking ***. There is nothing they can do to balance the economy or take away the advantage this has given those who benefited from it at any time in the past four years. Nope, this is in no way game wrecking (except of.c. for the people banned). CCP doesn't need to do anything to 'balance the economy', because the EVE economy will balance itself. In a few months, T2 item prices will have found a new equilibrium, and while some people will still emorage about the higher prices, EVE will pretty much go on as before. Remember that EVE also functioned quite well when T2 prices were MUCH higher than this will ever bring them (before invention...). All in all, this'll be a minor market hiccup. Nothing more.... EVE whiners... Making mountains from molehills since the beginning....* Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.14 00:48:00 - [1968] Originally by: Lara Dantreb ..Stuff.. Ok, I do not know about over 1 Trillion ISK from just a few moons mate. Unless we are talking over extent of 4 years... then I can fathom that, maybe... But, I am always, mostly, a 1-Man operation, and was simply doing all those things as to make sure that I cut out the middle man, as much as possible for my T2 production. I entered the moon mining only in the last year or so, and only for about six months, and found it to be unfeasible for the amount of time I was willing to invest. Of course, I can go into it, and argue that my style of management was good enough to make me enough ISK not to ever worry about GTC for the rest of my EVE life, and bring numbers into it, but I prefer to keep those things private. I never carry inventory, it is against my moral code, and it is alien for me to have anything from "years ago" unless we are talking Officer Items I am hoarding or unique collector items I bought over the years. I do always push down the market to their breaking point and I made enough ISK off that. But, all that personal business stuff aside - I am talking percentages here, and ratios of profit, were damaged by the exploit. And it was not just damaged for me, it was damaged for everyone. It would also mean that the space those cheating entities hold is not being held due to their military and economic might, but because they have unlimited amount of ISK to throw at the problem. If you can accept loses of 10-20 Moms, and just go out there and build/buy 20 more, who cares what your enemy might have, by sheer volume of the "free" resources you will hold the space through enemy attrition. Fact remains that this exploit, if it stayed in this game for 4 years, and lets say was exploited en masse for the last 2-3 years, would mean that the everything you and I know about the real market is false. That means that all the projections of T2 growth, and its current wide spread use is false, and was based on a false trends, perpetuated by the now impossible supply numbers. This will mean disaster for number of T2 items. This will mean that people will really have to pay - and I hope to god not - the 2006 prices for things. Even with invention, the sheer volume of supply have been simply cut off, and does not exist. Hence I pulled all my T2 off the markets at this time, and I have new batches coming in around the 1st of January, and those will stay in till I see a real need, so I can capitalize on the future reseller-inflated prices. How many of you guys remember Jita or Yulai, in pre-invention days? How many remember that one could not place a fairly priced T2 items on the market because they would be snapped up and marked up to 300-400% by resellers? So, you had to sell at 300% -400% markup just to keep the resellers out. Anyway, I am really worried that we are heading there, but not due to T2 BPO manufacturing ability scarcity, as we have invention now, but due to the Moon Mineral bottleneck that appears to be looming on the horizon. Oh, and it really does not matter to me if I am wrong or right, I will make money either way, what matters to me that I make my ISK by working for it, and those ****ers did not. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.14 00:51:00 - [1969] Originally by: Chen Mubai Time invested in a game is always worthless, dummy. It's a game. It's worth only the fun you had playing it. lol Unless you expected to get the time back, or be able to trade it in future, etc. But the other point is valid - there are unfair advantages: Exploits - obviously GTCs - using real life money to affect in game stuff always sucks Buy and selling of toons - again, real life money to gain an edge T1 Loot - makes the T1 market unaccessible to noob traders / manufacturers etc. Anyway, i call shame on CCP, but i'm willing to wait for the facts to come out before I get my pitchfork. T1 loot actually help newbies because they can profit more doing missions, which is considerably less boring than mining and less skill intensive. If there was no T1 loot it is an horrible market. You can observ this on the itens that are not in loot tables in the hubs, they are equally horrible to sell. You have a point about GTCs and character selling, though. I would certainly prefer that converting real time money into ISK would be impossible. I never sold a single GTC and I never would. But do you know anyone who would pay hundreds of thousand dollars to have trillions of ISKs? I sincerelly doubt it. But even if you did there is no demand for this. So although GTCs are indeed a bad thing, they are a very limited ISK resource. This last exploit, or T20's bpo spawing when T2 were extremelly expensive products, were for all purposes money printing machines. And god knows what other exploits we are not even aware of have come into being in this neglected game... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Verulam Gallente Vado Fututio Vestri	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:24:00 - [1970] Edited by: Verulam on 14/12/2008 02:26:02 Whilst reading a good portion of previous material I can not help but wonder upon the timing for revealing this exploit. The news of it reverberating throughout the web reporting uproar within the eve community. All this comes out at a rather convenient time with Christmas approaching. I'm sure CCP will appreciate any publicity it doesn't have to pay for at a time when people have a little extra prezzie income. Whilst adorning my tinfoil hat it all seems not so coincedental - On the heels of QR and at a time when CCP just last month brokered a deal with ATARI to release EVE back on hardcopy. I wouldn't want to suggest that CCP fabricated all this as a publicity ploy... but the release and acknowledgement for the exploit certainly comes at a fortuitous time. Anyway.... food for thought

Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:35:00 - [1971] Count me in with the school of people LMAOing... While I'd really like to post my economic analysis, I doubt it would do any good, so let me simply say, People: IT. IS. A. GAME. You pay money to play the game to have fun. Did you have fun before? If so, your money bought what it was advertised to. Also, Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! (Cause she is surely at work here.)
Zakysam Gallente Relentless Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:36:00 - [1972] hahahahahahahahaha á ===== Join 'The Scope' for a unforgetten experience!
Apaco lypse	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:47:00 - [1973] hey CCP any updates?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:58:00 - [1974] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/12/2008 02:58:27 Originally by: Toawa People: IT. IS. A. GAME. You pay money to play the game to have fun. Did you have fun before? If so, your money bought what it was advertised to. Man, you are original. You just repeated what only about a dozen other posters said before you. Nobody plays a game "just to have fun". People play a game to have fun while pursuing objectives. Whitout objectives there is no mult game. Without competition there is no multiplayer game, otherwise you could only play single player games while chating to people in MSN. When people realize that they payed for a game , in this case for years, just to have all their efforts in this game undermined by ridiculous exploits it is their right to feel scammed by the company that took their money and failed to deliver an even playfield. If you don't feel like so you are either, one of the cheaters, an emplyee of said company or a total idiot. If the correct answer is the last one, I would like to sell you the Golden Gate Bridge and the Eiffel Tower. Contact me ingame for details. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.14 03:40:00 - [1975] Cry tears. Dry tears. Toss tissue. Move on. Better yet scrap your poses and shoot something. Its a great way to release all that pent up frustration. People will always cheat if they can, its the way of life. All you can do is move on.
Mordakai Drakken	Posted - 2008.12.14 04:00:00 - [1976] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn People will always cheat if they can, its the way of life. All you can do is move on. No, not all people will cheat just because they can. Some of us play for fun, and cheating removes that fun. Don't assume everyone is like you. No, something of this magnitude can not simply be about in-game acievement. Where's the achievement? When you're done playing for the day, would you feel good about gaining lots of ISK from a broken game mechanic? When you win a fight because everyone had top gear you aquired from cheating, do you feel victory? Maybe, for some, who don't care for making it there, only that they arrived. I agree that this is a game, but where it gets VERY touchy is when you consider how much RL money is pumped into the game. How many players do you know that spend RL money to buy GTC to infuse enough cash into their corp just to keep up with the enemy? And, even then they LOSE! How many of these scenarios were against players, corps, alliances who DID NOT SPEND ONE CENT? In fact, they CHEATED to get ahead. I imagine these people feel very cheated. And they should. If RL money wasn't involved in the game (excepting the normal subscription fee) this would be far less important IMHO. And yes, this is a video game... but one with a community, a whole player community, which sets it apart from you run of the mill single player game (where cheating is often your choice to make)
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.14 04:29:00 - [1977] I can see quite a number of people who come here and simply try to slant this thing and play it as if this was "not a big deal" at all. And I see some of them are from deep 0.0... now, guys, if I did not have such faith in the good of humanity, I would start thinking that people who refer to such a MASSIVE exploit, that has effectively vaporized almost any competition for resources, and potentially made a lot of real money for the players through ISK sales, as "not a big deal." "nothing to worry about," "it is just a game," etc, as people who really have something to worry about, and who are working hard against the tide of common outrage, and possibly benefited in some ways from it, and are now just a little too anxious that the extensive CCP investigation might reveal some of their own dirty secrets. If you are not outraged by this cheating and exploiting then you either a complete noob, who was not affected, somehow tied together with those at Ev0ke and other cheaters, knew about the exploit, or benefited from it in some way. If I was part of the above mentioned group, I would certainly love to come here and try to dissuade people from the righteous outrage, and would try really hard to downplay what has happened in hopes of avoiding a lengthy investigation that is clearly being demanded by the EVE community at large. Who knows what other skeletons CCP might uncover if they really start digging. Good luck to the "not serious" and "lol" crowds.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.14 04:53:00 - [1978] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Cry tears. Dry tears. Toss tissue. Move on. Better yet scrap your poses and shoot something. Its a great way to release all that pent up frustration. People will always cheat if they can, its the way of life. All you can do is move on. A thief thinks everyone steals !
Belliana	Posted - 2008.12.14 04:56:00 - [1979] Originally by: Delos Korelian ...outraged...cheating...exploiting...righteous outrage... lol Dude, guess what? Ferrogel isn't real. Neither are the moons. POS's aren't real either. Neither are those ships you fly around it. You also don't own any of these imaginary items in the game. We all pay a monthly fee to log in and observe and manipulate an imaginary universe. You really need to get a handle on the difference between imaginary and reality and realize that NOTHING in an imaginary world is worth the absolute misery you're putting yourself through, and the utter hatred and anger you're filling yourself with. People like you are so full of lol. Srsly. Go volunteer in a homeless shelter or sign up to de-worm orphans in Somalia and get a little perspective on life.
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.14 05:05:00 - [1980] I have flown the vast reaches of space when there was no autopilot to guide me. I have mined Bistot in a 0.2 system when there were no pirates to harass me. I have rode the mighty moon worm... (Ok, maybe not that.) Those responsible have been punished, and will be punished. I am not outraged because there is nothing worth getting outraged over. Certainly nothing here. (Furthermore, I have a limited outrage budget, and I spend it wisely. I was not outraged when the AIG execs took their half million dollar vacation on the public's dime, because doing so would detract from the amount of outrage that I need to be outraged at the fact that the politicians are giving those dimes away. I was not distracted by that, I will not be distracted by this.) EVE is not worth giving yourself a stroke. If you're really mad, take a month's vacation. Or two. I've done it. Several times. (That's why my beta-old main still only has 52m sp).

Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.14 05:07:00 - [1981] Edited by: Delos Korelian on 14/12/2008 05:09:07 Originally by: Belliana Originally by: Delos Korelian ...outraged...cheating...exploiting...righteous outrage... lol Dude, guess what? Ferrogel isn't real. Neither are the moons. POS's aren't real either. Neither are those ships you fly around it. You also don't own any of these imaginary items in the game. We all pay a monthly fee to log in and observe and manipulate an imaginary universe. You really need to get a handle on the difference between imaginary and reality and realize that NOTHING in an imaginary world is worth the absolute misery you're putting yourself through, and the utter hatred and anger you're filling yourself with. People like you are so full of lol. Srsly. Go volunteer in a homeless shelter or sign up to de-worm orphans in Somalia and get a little perspective on life. You know what is real? Time spent, time spent competing in a game which is all about competition. The pixels are fake, but the time moving pixels around is not. Oh, and I certainly have a good grip on reality and on imaginary. Oh, and I am not miserable, I am actually quite happy. What I am upset about is my time wasted by the the cheaters and exploiters. I hope the underlining gave you a hint at what the real and imaginary is (the real part is underlined).
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.14 05:12:00 - [1982] Originally by: Belliana Ferrogel isn't real. Actually, you're wrong about that.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.14 05:18:00 - [1983] Edited by: Baske on 14/12/2008 05:18:08 Originally by: Belliana Originally by: Delos Korelian ...outraged...cheating...exploiting...righteous outrage... lol Dude, guess what? Ferrogel isn't real. Neither are the moons. POS's aren't real either. Neither are those ships you fly around it. You also don't own any of these imaginary items in the game. We all pay a monthly fee to log in and observe and manipulate an imaginary universe. You really need to get a handle on the difference between imaginary and reality and realize that NOTHING in an imaginary world is worth the absolute misery you're putting yourself through, and the utter hatred and anger you're filling yourself with. People like you are so full of lol. Srsly. Go volunteer in a homeless shelter or sign up to de-worm orphans in Somalia and get a little perspective on life. Yes, far worse things exists in the world than people cheating in EVE. But, this doesn't make cheating less cheating, and less unfair. When people say outrageous, I think they talk about outrageous in the game of EVE. This is EVE forums, so if you want to talk other stuff, go to appropriate places, and discuss them, because other issues needs alot of attention as you point out. Personally I like getting into many interesting subjects like what you mention, but once again, I have to stress, this is EVE forums, not some random forums where EVE is the discussion of the week.
Susan Fiona Snow Blind Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.14 05:22:00 - [1984] Edited by: Susan Fiona on 14/12/2008 05:25:03 Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. /me watches the CSM meeting minutes page rabidly (here, in case ya missed it ). CSM/CCP, when should we expect the minutes to be released so we can see the discussion? edit: post 1982 useless factoid: In 1982, the largest cash robbery in history occurs in New York when $9,800,000 is stolen from an armored car (the joys of parallels)
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.14 05:39:00 - [1985] Originally by: Baske When people say outrageous, I think they talk about outrageous in the game of EVE. Actually, that does bring up something I was wondering... You can't have something this big and have it go unnoticed IC.. Which makes me wonder how they'd spin it IC. I'd say, "massive smuggling ring busted in Caldari space", embezzlement from the megacorps, several CEOs step down, etc., etc. Except by saying that, I may have just nixed it. (CCP, feel free to use it; I hereby place it into public domain.)
Belliana	Posted - 2008.12.14 06:01:00 - [1986] Originally by: Delos Korelian I am actually quite happy. What I am upset about Wow, you just wasted a lot of time writing that. Your time must not be very valuable. I'd love to hear how cheaters caused you to waste your time. Are you saying that if you'd known about the exploit you wouldn't have bothered to play and used your time doing something else? I hope not since there's no such thing as a game with no exploits or cheaters. Thanks for even more lols tho.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.14 06:10:00 - [1987] Originally by: Belliana Originally by: Delos Korelian I am actually quite happy. What I am upset about Wow, you just wasted a lot of time writing that. Your time must not be very valuable. I'd love to hear how cheaters caused you to waste your time. Are you saying that if you'd known about the exploit you wouldn't have bothered to play and used your time doing something else? I hope not since there's no such thing as a game with no exploits or cheaters. Thanks for even more lols tho. Some games have less exploits, some games are like EVE ! Do you have exploting friends, since you are busy defending them instead of solving the RL world situation, as you suggest the rest of us should do? You are weird, and your actions are contradicting your own words.
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.14 06:11:00 - [1988] Originally by: Belliana Originally by: Delos Korelian I am actually quite happy. What I am upset about Wow, you just wasted a lot of time writing that. Your time must not be very valuable. I'd love to hear how cheaters caused you to waste your time. Are you saying that if you'd known about the exploit you wouldn't have bothered to play and used your time doing something else? I hope not since there's no such thing as a game with no exploits or cheaters. Thanks for even more lols tho. Right, because there are no options other than "wouldn't bother to play and usi[ng] [my] time doing something else." I don't know, I would have reported it, and I would have come to the forums and told people about it, thus forcing CCP to act. My guess you are of the mentality "if I am not caught, then it is OK" or you believe into "victimless crimes," right? As I said, you working too hard to diffuse the situation. What happened is an outrage in this game, what happened was detrimental to the game, and as such to the players. You can go "lol" all you want, smart cookie.
Tara Rensa	Posted - 2008.12.14 06:54:00 - [1989] Edited by: Tara Rensa on 14/12/2008 07:05:45 Edited by: Tara Rensa on 14/12/2008 07:00:33 Ten pages since my last post, and nobody seems to have touched on the real business issue here: fraud. Lots of very interesting, well thought out posts, and lots of mindless drivel, and some still giving a pass to people who commited fraud. So let's think about this for a second: a number of players exploit a flaw in the software that allows them to generate fake in-game money (ISK), with which they buy game time (which costs most of us real hard-earned money). So, they're using fake money to pay for subscriptions that cost all of us $14.95 US$ per month. CCP tells us that 70 (seventy) accounts were cancelled, and some posts allege that this exploit was being abused as much as four (4) years ago. So, do the math: $14.95 (US$) x 48 months x 70 accounts = $50,000 (conservatively). CCP was defrauded out of at least $50,000 (US$) conservatively. Dunno about Iceland or Germany or Serbia, but fraud to the amount of $50,000 is a felony here in the US. So I ask my previous question to those giving the criminals a pass: if I find and exploit a security flaw in a bank's online system, I can keep all the cash I steal from that bank? I get a free pass? And for those of you who suggest that having a mechanism to pay for game time with ISK is provided by CCP, you need to also remember that in every business contract (which we all agreed to in the EULA), there is a basic "good faith" understanding that prevents people of good character from abusing the agreement.
Leet Magician Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.14 07:13:00 - [1990] in the t20 incident there were player names, corporation names, alliance name flying around... I just hope ccp will have the dignity to do the same in this situation... I demand: NAME AND SHAME CCP!!!

Bellator Militaris Caldari Endeavor Enterprises INC Imperial Defense Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.14 07:17:00 - [1991] I for one, congratulate CCP for taking swiff action. These cheaters hurt the honest players of EVE. Thank You, CCP.
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.14 07:26:00 - [1992] Edited by: Toawa on 14/12/2008 07:28:37 Originally by: Tara Rensa So let's think about this for a second: a number of players exploit a flaw in the software that allows them to generate fake in-game money (ISK), with which they buy game time (which costs most of us real hard-earned money). No; this is incorrect. You can't buy game time from CCP using ISK. You buy game time from other people, who have paid dollars or euros for it, to CCP. CCP has not lost any money directly because of this. (I say directly, since it's impossible to quantify the indirect costs of cancelled accounts which may have stemmed from this.) In fact, it's possible that CCP actually gained, since more ISK would mean a larger market for GTCs, which would mean more people buying them (paying real $$ to CCP) to sell on the GTC market. I don't have the kind of data needed to tell one way or the other. In fact, from a market perspective, I think a lot of people need to brush up on their Bastiat. If the people behind this had figured out a way to do this in real life (output without input), they'd be rightly touted as heros. (At least they should be.) (For those of choleric temper, no, I am not excusing their actions.)
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.14 07:36:00 - [1993] Originally by: Toawa Originally by: Belliana Ferrogel isn't real. Actually, you're wrong about that. Well gee, no wonder it's so expensive!
Raul Watanabe Gallente NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.12.14 08:11:00 - [1994] Pff, this is nothing, i have special exploits for making huge amounts of isk without effort too as well Hey now that the EVE universe has been shaped by large alliances that probably gained most of their power from said income whats going to happen? How about everybody loses everything just to make sure no one is cheating
Tara Rensa	Posted - 2008.12.14 08:30:00 - [1995] Originally by: Toawa No; this is incorrect. You can't buy game time from CCP using ISK. I never said a word about buying from CCP, so that's an irrelevent point. If examined at a macro level, what you suggest doesn't change the fact that fraud is being committed; it merely shifts the victim of the fraud from one (CCP) to another (player). The fraud still exists, because fraudulent means are being used to gain value (gametime) from non-existent resources (in-game falsely generated ISK). In essence, you're suggesting cause for class action, rather than a simple felony rap, and how do you think that would go over? Legal fraud minutia, or defrauding actual people in the real world? And as you suggested, you don't have any of the data to back up anything you're suggesting; I'm merely commenting on what has been stated here as factual evidence.
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.14 08:38:00 - [1996] Originally by: Tara Rensa I never said a word about buying from CCP, so that's an irrelevent point. If examined at a macro level, what you suggest doesn't change the fact that fraud is being committed; it merely shifts the victim of the fraud from one (CCP) to another (player). The fraud still exists, because fraudulent means are being used to gain value (gametime) from non-existent resources (in-game falsely generated ISK). In essence, you're suggesting cause for class action, rather than a simple felony rap, and how do you think that would go over? Legal fraud minutia, or defrauding actual people in the real world? You are the one that started talking about RL crimes. This does not rise to that level; the GTC sellers knew that they were purchasing ISK, an in-game currency, which does not hold legal standing, with real currency, which does. They recieved their ISK, as per arrangement; thus they cannot claim failure to deliver (essentially, theft). Furthermore, the existance of extra non-currency goods is a deflationary pressure, so they cannot claim that the currency that they purchased was devalued, because it wasn't. The only people that can claim a loss of value are the moon holders and T2 refiners; neither of which are legally recognized in RL jurisprudence.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.14 09:46:00 - [1997] Originally by: Tara Rensa I never said a word about buying from CCP, so that's an irrelevent point. If examined at a macro level, what you suggest doesn't change the fact that fraud is being committed; it merely shifts the victim of the fraud from one (CCP) to another (player). The fraud still exists, because fraudulent means are being used to gain value (gametime) from non-existent resources (in-game falsely generated ISK). In essence, you're suggesting cause for class action, rather than a simple felony rap, and how do you think that would go over? Legal fraud minutia, or defrauding actual people in the real world? Ok, talking about legal action is just ***ing stupid. Who exactly is the victim here? CCP lost nothing. While the exploiting players were able to pay for their subscription, every single timecard they bought with that cheated ISK resulted in $15 going to CCP. In the end, CCP gets $15/month X the number of accounts, no matter if they're paid for with cash, legitimate ISK, cheated ISK, whatever. The players who bought the timecards and sold them for cheated ISK lost nothing. CCP has done nothing (and if they have any sense, will continue to do nothing) to remove the cheated assets from any innocent players who happen to have traded for them unknowingly. If I buy a GTC and sell it, it doesn't matter how the person I'm selling it to got their ISK, I still have the same amount of money to spend however I like. The most you could argue is that I've been cheated out of a fair and honest game, but it's just stupid to think you can sue over that. If failure to stop cheating was lawsuit-worthy, every single game developer* would be sued into bankruptcy. It would even extend to the real world... I think I'll sue every professional sports league when there's a cheating scandal, since I was deprived of the honest game I was expecting. -----------
Venomae Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.14 09:47:00 - [1998] Originally by: Susan Fiona Edited by: Susan Fiona on 14/12/2008 05:25:03 Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. /me watches the CSM meeting minutes page rabidly (here, in case ya missed it ). CSM/CCP, when should we expect the minutes to be released so we can see the discussion? edit: post 1982 useless factoid: In 1982, the largest cash robbery in history occurs in New York when $9,800,000 is stolen from an armored car (the joys of parallels) That Nasdaq dude stole 50 billion dollars from stupid investors! Crazy mofo!
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.14 09:48:00 - [1999] Edited by: OffBeaT on 14/12/2008 09:55:46 Originally by: Tara Rensa Edited by: Tara Rensa on 14/12/2008 07:06:04 Ten pages since my last post, and nobody seems to have touched on the real business issue here: fraud. Lots of very interesting, well thought out posts, and lots of mindless drivel, and some still giving a pass to people who commited fraud. So let's think about this for a second: a number of players exploit a flaw in the software that allows them to generate fake in-game money (ISK), with which they buy game time (which costs most of us real hard-earned money). So, they're using fake money to pay for subscriptions that cost all of us $14.95 US$ per month. CCP tells us that 70 (seventy) accounts were cancelled, and some posts allege that this exploit was being abused as much as four (4) years ago. So, do the math: $14.95 (US$) x 48 months x 70 accounts = $50,000 (conservatively). CCP was defrauded out of at least $50,000 (US$) conservatively. Dunno about Iceland or Germany or Serbia, but fraud to the amount of $50,000 is a felony here in the US. So I ask my previous question to those giving the criminals a pass: if I find and exploit a security flaw in a bank's online system, I can keep all the cash I steal from that bank? I get a free pass? And for those of you who suggest that having a mechanism to pay for game time with ISK is provided by CCP, you need to also remember that in every business contract (which we all agreed to in the EULA), there is a basic "good faith" understanding that prevents people of good character from abusing the agreement. you are a smart thinker but some think that the reason the exploit wasnt fixed in the first place is becouse mabe a few members of the gm or dev team where involved with the game and members of these alliances or highend members of them. so if this could be the case and i am not saying it is... what then, we as paying gammers are the ones who got frauded did we not! please dont close my account i did not make this clame! ps.. oh and yes i agree with her somwhat. if what they did with the isk went to selling it on ebay then yea it could be fraud in a kind of way..
Liboruno	Posted - 2008.12.14 10:02:00 - [2000] This is your explanation...

OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.14 10:07:00 - [2001] Edited by: OffBeaT on 14/12/2008 10:08:08 Originally by: Liboruno This is your explanation... no i am just thinking out loud from what i have read.. i realy think no real harm has been done to the game becouse i belive most of the major alliances where in on it. so it evens all out in a kind of way..
Kautsu Chen	Posted - 2008.12.14 11:02:00 - [2002] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Cry tears. Dry tears. Toss tissue. Move on. People will always cheat if they can, its the way of life. All you can do is move on. Hello, I have long wondered, why T2 invention of Minmatar hulls isn't worth of it. Now I know why. Some people have used wide scale slavery on their moon mining facilities to produce vast amounts of cheap T2 equipment and ships. I feel enraged. I have also for a long while wondered, why production of several items isn't worth to do. Why all miners and industrialists not selling few specific items, whose value apparently was not manipulated, have suffered with terrible profit. I am a prospector. I do not like killing neither fellow pod pilots nor pirates. All people like me have suffered a lot - because the income from production, invention and mining has been really lousy. And that did not made any sense before this fiasco became apparent. (( Out of Character: As you see, I do not hide behind some anynymous forum nick. Oh. I take the game seriously, when I do not use forum nicks to manipulate things infavor of my real characters? I do take the game too seriously, because I do not want to cheat? I am calling all those forum alters to join into this discussion with their main characters, not behind some mask - because creation of a forum alt proves they do take the game too seriously. This is MMO_RPG_ - roleplaying game - and as a roleplayer, those who think the game is winning should look at mirror and understand that they see person who takes the game too seriously. Roleplayers does not want to win other players - they want to win in-character, archiving goals they set for their character. And I would bet most of carebears, the dwellers of highsec who usually are silent on forum, does not cheat much. And why carebears are so silent? Because there is lots of people who does not like carebear, and shoot down any thread with carebear with "Can I have your stuff" -posts. I am really happy CCP has finally noticed that their income does not come from nullsec dwellers, but casual gamers, who does not burden servers with massive blobs, but who play in highsec as mission runners, industrialists, industrialists, and traders. It took way too long for them. )) (( Seriously, all those people saying this is just a game, are probably cheating any way they can - and they are taking the game too seriously. And they claim that honest roleplayers who does not want to use cheats, take the game too seriously. No wonder I do not like most games with multiplayer on internet - because too many think cheating is norm and those who does want challenge are idiots who does not use opportunity to cheat. I prefer well-designed games which does not require cheating. Unfortunately they are hard to find. )) (( And those who say that Ghost Training was not know issue. Read the post of CCP GM telling that Ghost Training was removed. It quite blatantly tell that CCP knew of that bug, but didn't want to fix it. Why? because it did nto affect their purse. It was plugged at once when CCP needed more money after GTC price doubled and they apparently lost lots of income. Oh, that's just coincidence. Come one. I used Ghost trainign, yes, but I would've at any moment exchanged it into skill queues. And I still wonder why no implementation of skill queues does not exist. )) Yours, Kautsu Chen Gradient Electus Matari
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.14 11:19:00 - [2003] Originally by: Liboruno This is your explanation... <Comic strip> Ahhh, good old Wulffmorgenthaler Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.12.14 11:20:00 - [2004] Well, I meant every word that I said, though I'd be lying if I said I didn't expect what kind of reaction most people would have... I'd have been surprised as hell if anyone had actually changed their mind because of what I said. I'm just amazed at the level of projection I see in many of the angry posts; specifically those along the lines of, "I'm mad as hell, and anyone else who isn't is obviously a cheater." Did it ever occur to any of you that we might have genuine and valid reasons for not metaphorically chewing the furniture?
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.14 11:26:00 - [2005] Originally by: Jinx Barker This will mean disaster for number of T2 items. This will mean that people will really have to pay - and I hope to god not - the 2006 prices for things. If you had bothered to do the math, you wouldn't have made a ridiculous statement like this..... In the absolute WORST case scenario, T2 ships will go up in price by ~35% (modules less). Note that this scenario involves ALL ferrogel to come from Alchemy, with NONE still being produced from moons. A much more likely scenario is a ~10-15% increase in price when they stabilise. You should also notice that EVE functioned quite well in 2006, evenb with T2 item prices high. It simply meant that more people used T1 named stuff. The lower T2 prices has actually worked against variety in the universe of EVE since everyone fits T2. It would actually be much better for variety if T2 prices were doubled or so from todays level. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.14 11:39:00 - [2006] Originally by: Delos Korelian ...And I see some of them are from deep 0.0... now, guys, if I did not have such faith in the good of humanity, I would start thinking that people who refer to such a MASSIVE exploit, that has effectively vaporized almost any competition for resources, and potentially made a lot of real money for the players through ISK sales, as "not a big deal." "nothing to worry about," "it is just a game," etc, as people who really have something to worry about, and who are working hard against the tide of common outrage, and possibly benefited in some ways from it, and are now just a little too anxious that the extensive CCP investigation might reveal some of their own dirty secrets. You do know that the only people who lost out to this in-game was: a. People controlling the moons used for Ferrogel production (mostly controlled on an alliance level anyway) b. People trying to make money from Alchemy (which was added a very short time ago) Everyone else has gained from it by low T2 prices. There's also a bunch of people claiming spurious and unspecified 'meta-losses' due to 'unfair competition', which is more or less total *****s... Originally by:** Delos Korelian If you are not outraged by this cheating and exploiting then you either a complete noob, who was not affected, somehow tied together with those at Ev0ke and other cheaters, knew about the exploit, or benefited from it in some way. ...or they're simply not a member of group a) and b) outlined above, and haven't felt any ill effects from this (quite the contrary in fact...). It could also be that we're just that little bit more mature and don't get upset about what happens in an internet spaceship game..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.12.14 11:43:00 - [2007] Originally by: Kerfira In the absolute WORST case scenario, T2 ships will go up in price by ~35% (modules less). Note that this scenario involves ALL ferrogel to come from Alchemy, with NONE still being produced from moons. A much more likely scenario is a ~10-15% increase in prices when they stabilise. I haven't looked that closely at alchemy, and it will obviously limit the price increase of the rarer reactions. However, you calculations doesn't seem to factor in a potential rise in price for the alchemy ingredients, nor the time required to perform alchemy.
MMXMMX Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.14 11:54:00 - [2008] Quote: Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Anyone that know when that is exactly ?
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.14 12:39:00 - [2009] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Kerfira In the absolute WORST case scenario, T2 ships will go up in price by ~35% (modules less). Note that this scenario involves ALL ferrogel to come from Alchemy, with NONE still being produced from moons. A much more likely scenario is a ~10-15% increase in prices when they stabilise. I haven't looked that closely at alchemy, and it will obviously limit the price increase of the rarer reactions. However, you calculations doesn't seem to factor in a potential rise in price for the alchemy ingredients, nor the time required to perform alchemy. True, but I honestly don't think that is going to outweigh the fact that I didn't include the presence of Prom/Dysp moons in the EVE universe either The above was made to refute a ridiculous argument that prices might return to pre-invention days, which is clearly not the case. As a matter of fact, I welcome higher T2 prices. Not because I produce them or their components, but because it'll mean: a. More T1 named items will be used (ie. more variety) b. More tears when people lose T2 ships/stuff c. More satisfaction in killing T2 ships d. More pride in flying T2 e. More profit for pirates (I'm not one btw.) In short, higher T2 prices will insert more variety and emotions into EVE, both of which are to the benefit of the game. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
EpicFailTroll	Posted - 2008.12.14 12:45:00 - [2010] Please CCP! unban the banned and unfix the exploit fix so we can have low T2 prices. Obviously it didn't adversely affect anyone, much the contrary, as it benefited all.

Heroldyn	Posted - 2008.12.14 12:58:00 - [2011] Originally by: MMXMMX Quote: Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Anyone that know when that is exactly ? as far as i know they'll discuss it today, 16h GMT.
Tzacos Tzunkars	Posted - 2008.12.14 13:12:00 - [2012] Anyway whatever might be said, people cheating in game like EVE are also RL cheaters. Even if it's a game with only virual stuff and actions, one thing aren't totally virtual: people relationship. And that kind of people are spoiling such relation. For me a cheater is just a looser.
Mint Royale Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.12.14 13:53:00 - [2013] Originally by: Belliana lol Dude, guess what? Ferrogel isn't real. Neither are the moons. POS's aren't real either. Neither are those ships you fly around it. You also don't own any of these imaginary items in the game. We all pay a monthly fee to log in and observe and manipulate an imaginary universe. You really need to get a handle on the difference between imaginary and reality and realize that NOTHING in an imaginary world is worth the absolute misery you're putting yourself through, and the utter hatred and anger you're filling yourself with. People like you are so full of lol. Srsly. Go volunteer in a homeless shelter or sign up to de-worm orphans in Somalia and get a little perspective on life. You know what? The money you pay the monthly fee with isn't real either! If you don't believe me then how come banks just lost 2 Trillion $ ? How come Iceland is for sale these days? If your still thinking imaginary constructs are useless then you might as well simply send me all your money - Jesus!
xHazzarDx	Posted - 2008.12.14 14:06:00 - [2014] Originally by: Tzacos Tzunkars Anyway whatever might be said, people cheating in game like EVE are also RL cheaters. For me a cheater is just a looser. Oh your god, i wish never ever wrote things like iddqd, or -noclip. cause now im just an RL cheating looser it seems..
Tarruman Thur	Posted - 2008.12.14 14:38:00 - [2015] Loser is spelt L-O-S-E-R. Oh noes! I am less tight in real life for cheating in CounterStrike. On topic, are there going to be any new regions added? This economy has gotten use to a certain pace of material consumption, and doesn't want to slow down.
Jhonen Senraedi Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.14 14:51:00 - [2016] Of course..one of the side effects of this... CCP in their infinite wisdom have compounded the issue by allowing feerogel market to explode as recently witnessed.. This wouldn't be a bad thing if no one had forewarning of the situation but...according to one of the perpetrator's of the exploit..he passed on info to his friends to buy into a soon to be inflated..price wise..commodity..so now we have insider trading generating a lot of iskies for various people who may well have known about the whole thing in the first place..or had association with people that did..and maybe benefitted from it in other ways prior to the exploit being exposed! Maybe CCP should have artificially kept the supply up..and gradually reduced the circulation numbers of the product so as not to allow for such profiteering by people who may have such association with the guilty parties?
Xebodia	Posted - 2008.12.14 15:02:00 - [2017] OK so in todays real world economy I understand everyone would be talking cash in Eve too but for one it never said this was going on for four years that was an early post by a player and two it did say this affected 7 corps and 3 alliances. In terms of determining who it was it will be interesting to see if there is any subsequent power shifts in the political maps not just the economy of Eve. Someone somewhere just lost 70 players a bunch of stations and a buttload of disposable income. Initially I have to think there is going to be a hole in someones armor somewhere someplace and they just might face an invasion if it's figured out. They were able to gain advantage from the exploit, but they have now lost advantage by removal of those forces involved in it's exploitation, defence, and utilization. So yes if it turns out to be a four year exploit it's peeving but in real politic that's a bygone era for these corps and alliances who may have vunlerabilites on a number of levels depending on the amount they used the exploit to position themselves. I'm still not convinced it's been going on for 4 years, it's like someone else said this is a formidable mmo in it's complexity, it may just be it got 'switched on' at some point during an upgrade or expansion. It also may just be that these 7 corps and 3 alliances are in no way affiliated and were in fact competitors in one groupoing or another. If I had to guess I'd bet maybe two alliances had one corp using the exploit while one had 5 corps or some such groupings. If it were 2-2-3 there would be little chance of it being noted and reported as it would tend to mimick the free market. I'd guess someone somewhere figured it out in a single corp and started to tell others resulting in a preponderance of of the 7 affected corps being in one grouping. In otherwords I bet someone somewhere spilled the beans, everyone involved got greedy and overproduced resulting in an obvious flag for ccp. As far as detecting this thing through automated stats ccp may have a famous economist but he does not work for the American Secret Service for example. It's their job to do countfeit detection and apprehension so perhaps they should hire a former American secret agent, or catch 007 on an off day? I think the exploit was basically just that a ticket to print money much akin to counterfitting. It's sort of like when the Iranians flooded the world market with counterfit American $100 bills back in the 90s, it's a wake up call. Another anology would be to the European Central Bank or the American Fed, the exact methodology of how they measure the money supply is left deliberately vague. That's partly because it goes beyond the realm of mathematics in complexity, likewise the Eve economy is probably moved/moving beyond simple numerical indicators. They ought best to listen as best they can to the 300,000 or so observers they have (like not waiting 5 days to respond to this one lol).
Una Grashach	Posted - 2008.12.14 15:35:00 - [2018] So will CCP be bailing out the failing economy? 100 Billion iskies spread around should do it. Of course, just like RL, it will be the big corps that get the freebies and small guys like me that get the shaft.
Bytad	Posted - 2008.12.14 16:10:00 - [2019] I love EVE, We are talking about bail outs in a computer game.
Alferl Mission Mining Corp	Posted - 2008.12.14 16:11:00 - [2020] Out of my own view on such hard exploit that are some Individuals or Corp's or Alliances used and worked with, they should get what they deserved. If i just calc around a bit, what would be in monthly income of isk's for my own corp, if i had know¦ledge of that "bug" that is now an "exploit" then i feel a bit backstabbed from this individuals. Making 72.000 Units of Ferogel with a minimal efford on each POS is hard stuff to see over it away. And doing it for about 4 years is a way harder to go just over it. Means about 72k * 12 = 864k Ferogel per year. I dont want to calc back what would be possible to archive out of this in isk's with some POS's. But for sure it is not that less and sure fact of that soem had not archive what they had archived without that isk power behind the public. Banning them from game is the right way out of my view (i would also accept it for mayself and for my corp - if i had used it!). And the Corp's that where involved in that "exploit", by have one of that individual in it own members, they should be empty the hole assets and the wallets. It is a thing of trustment into CCP that they handle it in a right manner. I have get in last few weeks some informations that some individuals have about 50 accounts to play alone ... i allways ask myself .. 50 accounts to get paid is much money or many isks for gtc's .. how can they do that? They need to be very rich or cheat very badly. Anyway .. i like the game and i play it ahead, atm im a bit pi**ed about the fact, that some where able to use it over years and so far i also think that ccp have not the logs from 4 years to get out, who used that exploit for such long time and who not. CCP you are responsible for information about it to your loyal player community, that pay to play month by month the hard way. And as a paying player i want to get the corps that used the exploit named out in the news. Hold the comunity ingame also informed, about what you are doing atm and who is a participant of that moon mining "exploit". ---------------------------------------------- Alien Life Form Enjoy Real Life - and YOU?!?

Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.12.14 16:25:00 - [2021] Edited by: Stalina on 14/12/2008 16:25:40 Originally by: Tzacos Tzunkars Anyway whatever might be said, people cheating in game like EVE are also RL cheaters. For me a cheater is just a looser. Yes, also the most successfull trader in EVE must be the most successfull trader in RL and the richest guy on earth. Following your logic, you must be a r.e.t.a.r.d in RL, because you are one on in EVE.
Zenologic Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.12.14 17:01:00 - [2022] Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 14/12/2008 16:25:40 Originally by: Tzacos Tzunkars Anyway whatever might be said, people cheating in game like EVE are also RL cheaters. For me a cheater is just a looser. Yes, also the most successfull trader in EVE must be the most successfull trader in RL and the richest guy on earth. Following your logic, you must be a r.e.t.a.r.d in RL, because you are one on in EVE. I agree that people who cheat in games are cheaters in RL. a cheater is a cheater and usually a loser too. following your logic, stalina, you might have described yourself, since you totally mis-construed the OP's post. spread some peace and love, Zeno
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.14 17:36:00 - [2023] Originally by: Tarruman Thur Loser is spelt L-O-S-E-R. Oh noes! I am less tight in real life for cheating in CounterStrike. On topic, are there going to be any new regions added? This economy has gotten use to a certain pace of material consumption, and doesn't want to slow down. Plenty of spelling contests out there to join for people like you. EVE forums isn't one of them.
Roy Boaz	Posted - 2008.12.14 17:38:00 - [2024] CCP reminds me so much of the USA'S Republican Party. Replace Haliburton with BoB, Scooter Libby with T20, etc. Scandal after scandal. Coverup after coverup. Eve is to start with, an unfair game. The first commers got a huge avantage by securing the few profitable moons, systems, t2 bpo, etc. Now, we have to compete against massive cheating, on top of macro miners. Again. I understand that what make Eve interesting (realistic economics) makes it also prone to the same BS we see in real life. One of the great appeal of MMORPG, is that everyone start with a fair and equal chance of success, like in the American Dream. Eve look more like the real stuff, the American Greed. Time to blow up the remaining ships and move on to something else.
Talon Frey ARK-CORP SATRAPY	Posted - 2008.12.14 17:58:00 - [2025] After going through all 68 pages of this thread, CCP you have failed to respond even once. Do you not think that such a large response to this issue requires some sort of response? Would it be so hard for CCP to keep their paying customers up to date? CCP your a business and like any other business you have a responsibility to your customers. Keep that in mind while your ignoring us. Talon
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.14 18:22:00 - [2026] Originally by: Talon Frey After going through all 68 pages of this thread, CCP you have failed to respond even once. Do you not think that such a large response to this issue requires some sort of response? Would it be so hard for CCP to keep their paying customers up to date? CCP your a business and like any other business you have a responsibility to your customers. Keep that in mind while your ignoring us. They're having a meeting with the CSM right now. Can you wait about it?
Wodanonline Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.14 18:28:00 - [2027] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Talon Frey After going through all 68 pages of this thread, CCP you have failed to respond even once. Do you not think that such a large response to this issue requires some sort of response? Would it be so hard for CCP to keep their paying customers up to date? CCP your a business and like any other business you have a responsibility to your customers. Keep that in mind while your ignoring us. They're having a meeting with the CSM right now. Can you wait about it? they will just make another fanfest movie where oveur orders the one responsible for this fail bug to be thrown off the roof. ps they only said they will have a meeting this weekend they never said they will post an update after that. but like all of you i cant wait till i hopefully get to read some facts about this
Frobos	Posted - 2008.12.14 18:53:00 - [2028] I just wanted to post in hopes of getting this beast to 69 pages! While I'm here, I'd like to offer a solution for all by quoting one of my favorite movies, The Big Lebowski........ "You see what happens Larry? You see what happens when you *k a stranger in the s ?!?" --posting as the little voices in my head dictate
Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.12.14 18:55:00 - [2029] Edited by: Stalina on 14/12/2008 18:56:11 Originally by: Zenologic Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 14/12/2008 16:25:40 Originally by: Tzacos Tzunkars Anyway whatever might be said, people cheating in game like EVE are also RL cheaters. For me a cheater is just a looser. Yes, also the most successfull trader in EVE must be the most successfull trader in RL and the richest guy on earth. Following your logic, you must be a r.e.t.a.r.d in RL, because you are one on in EVE. I agree that people who cheat in games are cheaters in RL.a cheater is a cheater and usually a loser too. following your logic, stalina, you might have described yourself, since you totally mis-construed the OP's post. Op says that ingame cheaters are cheaters in RL, yet he doesn't post proof, so his statement is invalid. Buy this logic, ingame pirates would be rl criminals and so on. Stop trolling now please.
Sunbird Huy Wolf Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:08:00 - [2030] Originally by: Shiyama What we know so far: from CCP - exploit found, fixed people banned, more to come. From the interweb - 4 years of evil, [insert enemy alliance name] has been using this cheat they are teh hax0rz!!!, the sky is falling and really we don't know much yet. answer - wait. If you are smart then take advantage of the fluctuation in the markets or just go on anyway. CCP do have a fairly poor history of customer service, but lets at least give them more than 24hours to fix the problem and then do all the research into finding how deep it runs. Ummm...huh?!!?...sorry, didn't they have a year or a couple of years to check? And hammerfall, it can't be that some BIG blocks weren't involved in this...

Calvin Firenze Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:13:00 - [2031] Originally by: Frobos I just wanted to post in hopes of getting this beast to 69 pages! While I'm here, I'd like to offer a solution for all by quoting one of my favorite movies, The Big Lebowski........ "You see what happens Larry? You see what happens when you *k a stranger in the s ?!?" --posting as the little voices in my head dictate
Zenologic Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:13:00 - [2032] Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 14/12/2008 18:56:11 Originally by: Zenologic Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 14/12/2008 16:25:40 Originally by: Tzacos Tzunkars Anyway whatever might be said, people cheating in game like EVE are also RL cheaters. For me a cheater is just a looser. Yes, also the most successfull trader in EVE must be the most successfull trader in RL and the richest guy on earth. Following your logic, you must be a r.e.t.a.r.d in RL, because you are one on in EVE. I agree that people who cheat in games are cheaters in RL.a cheater is a cheater and usually a loser too. following your logic, stalina, you might have described yourself, since you totally mis-construed the OP's post. Op says that ingame cheaters are cheaters in RL, yet he doesn't post proof, so his statement is invalid. Buy this logic, ingame pirates would be rl criminals and so on. Stop trolling now please. obviously this is beyond your comprehension. may the power of the universe grant you great intellect this holiday season. hugs and kisses
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:25:00 - [2033] Edited by: Haradgrim on 14/12/2008 19:25:42 Originally by: Calvin Firenze Originally by: Frobos I just wanted to post in hopes of getting this beast to 69 pages! While I'm here, I'd like to offer a solution for all by quoting one of my favorite movies, The Big Lebowski........ "You see what happens Larry? You see what happens when you *k a stranger in the s ?!?" --posting as the little voices in my head dictate The dude abides... -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:27:00 - [2034] Edited by: Stalina on 14/12/2008 19:31:49 Originally by: Zenologic obviously this is beyond your comprehension. may the power of the universe grant you great intellect this holiday season. hugs and kisses Obviously your replys are beyond any content and you are hiding behind an alt. If you are bitter about not getting a piece of the isk-cake send me an eve-mail, I care about your feelings.
Bilabong Joe	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:30:00 - [2035] To be honest the people this game attracts is going to spawn this type of mass exploit. You just have to sit in jita for 5 mins and see that EVERY SINGLE PERSON spamming local is trying to con people out of isk. False contracts Fake Contracts Contracts playing number games i.e. wrong ammounts, wrong value against object. You think any one of them wouldnt take advantage of a exploit if they found one??? Unless CCP is willing to crack down Properly on the players that are out to earn an easy living instead of how the game dynamics are setup then you are fueling for this type of thing to happen. This event has had a massive effect on the economy jita prices are going through the roof. Just this weekend : A hulk price has gone up 12 mill Falcons 5 mill Most HAC's 8-15mill increase. my views are CCP police the game properly and stick close to the game dynamics you are trying to give us or you will leave yourself open to this attitude from the gamers..........
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:31:00 - [2036] Originally by: Bilabong Joe To be honest the people this game attracts is going to spawn this type of mass exploit. You just have to sit in jita for 5 mins and see that EVERY SINGLE PERSON spamming local is trying to con people out of isk. False contracts Fake Contracts Contracts playing number games i.e. wrong ammounts, wrong value against object. You think any one of them wouldnt take advantage of a exploit if they found one??? Unless CCP is willing to crack down Properly on the players that are out to earn an easy living instead of how the game dynamics are setup then you are fueling for this type of thing to happen. This event has had a massive effect on the economy jita prices are going through the roof. Just this weekend : A hulk price has gone up 12 mill Falcons 5 mill Most HAC's 8-15mill increase. my views are CCP police the game properly and stick close to the game dynamics you are trying to give us or you will leave yourself open to this attitude from the gamers.......... There's a pretty big difference between scamming and exploiting, for one thing, scamming is not against the rules.
Logicycle	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:34:00 - [2037] Edited by: Logicycle on 14/12/2008 19:34:24 blah
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:36:00 - [2038] Originally by: Roy Boaz CCP reminds me so much of the USA'S Republican Party. Replace Haliburton with BoB, Scooter Libby with T20, etc. Scandal after scandal. Coverup after coverup. ... Time to blow up the remaining ships and move on to something else. You just HAVE to be an NC alt..... First you start going off about BoB, T20 and CCP, and then you talk about moving on.... FYI, all available information seems to indicate this to be mostly an NC (or ex-NC) affair, with Morsus Mihi and particularly Evoke right in the thick of it! Nothing like trying to deflect attention, ehh? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:36:00 - [2039] Originally by: Logicycle Edited by: Logicycle on 14/12/2008 19:34:24 blah My thoughts exactly, with the whole situation. Now when are we going to see the minutes of the CSM meeting?
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:37:00 - [2040] Just nuke 0.0 already CCP, and bring all the power blocs back into Empire. Lets have a new Gold Rush of 2009, where 0.0 was scorched by Jove. Meantime, make sure all the corporations and alliances who are implicated in this exploit are destroyed and disbanded, and all assets are taken away.

Bilabong Joe	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:41:00 - [2041] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Bilabong Joe To be honest the people this game attracts is going to spawn this type of mass exploit. You just have to sit in jita for 5 mins and see that EVERY SINGLE PERSON spamming local is trying to con people out of isk. False contracts Fake Contracts Contracts playing number games i.e. wrong ammounts, wrong value against object. You think any one of them wouldnt take advantage of a exploit if they found one??? Unless CCP is willing to crack down Properly on the players that are out to earn an easy living instead of how the game dynamics are setup then you are fueling for this type of thing to happen. This event has had a massive effect on the economy jita prices are going through the roof. Just this weekend : A hulk price has gone up 12 mill Falcons 5 mill Most HAC's 8-15mill increase. my views are CCP police the game properly and stick close to the game dynamics you are trying to give us or you will leave yourself open to this attitude from the gamers.......... There's a pretty big difference between scamming and exploiting, for one thing, scamming is not against the rules. my point is the mind set of the people doing it. These are the people looking for a short cut to make big isk, given an exploit they would snatch it up. If they where made aware that NO scam/exploit/short cut to been rich is acceptable people would know not to test there luck with the big exploits. As it is it the attitude is what ever gets you free isk is fair game to all.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:43:00 - [2042] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/12/2008 19:46:17 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Roy Boaz CCP reminds me so much of the USA'S Republican Party. Replace Haliburton with BoB, Scooter Libby with T20, etc. Scandal after scandal. Coverup after coverup. ... Time to blow up the remaining ships and move on to something else. You just HAVE to be an NC alt..... First you start going off about BoB, T20 and CCP, and then you talk about moving on.... FYI, all available information seems to indicate this to be mostly an NC (or ex-NC) affair, with Morsus Mihi and particularly Evoke right in the thick of it! Nothing like trying to deflect attention, ehh? Maybe he is. But on the other hand, we KNOW you are a BoB alt. I remember your posts in the T20 incident. It is far more likely that the exploit is not contained to the NC. It is statistically improbable. Chances are people of all alliances are involved, even though I am sure most alliances are considerably smarter than Ev0ke and used alt corps. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jose Jimenez Caldari Nayashimi Natuki	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:47:00 - [2043] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Roy Boaz CCP reminds me so much of the USA'S Republican Party. Replace Haliburton with BoB, Scooter Libby with T20, etc. Scandal after scandal. Coverup after coverup. ... Time to blow up the remaining ships and move on to something else. You just HAVE to be an NC alt..... First you start going off about BoB, T20 and CCP, and then you talk about moving on.... FYI, all available information seems to indicate this to be mostly an NC (or ex-NC) affair, with Morsus Mihi and particularly Evoke right in the thick of it! Nothing like trying to deflect attention, ehh? Prepare to get banned for lying and insinuating without any facts, and i do not mean ev0ke. since you probably got beaten ingame by mm i guess you think it is ok to spread lies on forums, yeah? have fun
Bilabong Joe	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:49:00 - [2044] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/12/2008 19:43:41 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Roy Boaz CCP reminds me so much of the USA'S Republican Party. Replace Haliburton with BoB, Scooter Libby with T20, etc. Scandal after scandal. Coverup after coverup. ... Time to blow up the remaining ships and move on to something else. You just HAVE to be an NC alt..... First you start going off about BoB, T20 and CCP, and then you talk about moving on.... FYI, all available information seems to indicate this to be mostly an NC (or ex-NC) affair, with Morsus Mihi and particularly Evoke right in the thick of it! Nothing like trying to deflect attention, ehh? Maybe he is. But on the other hand, we KNOW you are a BoB alt. I remember your posts in the T20 incident. It is far more likely that the exploit is most likely not contained to the NC. It is statistically improbable. Chances are people of all alliances are involved, even though I am sure most alliances are considerably smarter than Ev0ke and used alt corps. Hold on hold on the original post CLEARLY says its was multiple corps spread over a few allainces. lets not point the finger at any coalition or alliance... The individual corps are to blame for there own actions the CEO's of those corps should take full blame and not bring shame to what allaince/coalition they choose to be in.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.14 19:54:00 - [2045] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 14/12/2008 19:54:51 We all know only SINGLE FACT at this time: Ev0ke WAS involved. Then there were UNSUBSTANTIATED accusations against KIA and MM, which are yet to pan out - unless someone has evidence they can point me to, Ev0ke, at the moment stands alone, but not for long. The exploit is too massive, I am sure that other 0.0 power blocs were involved in it as well, it will just take time, and willingness from CCP to pursue the matter. Which, it is possible, they will choose not to. Cheers. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:08:00 - [2046] Originally by: Bilabong Joe Hold on hold on the original post CLEARLY says its was multiple corps spread over a few allainces. lets not point the finger at any coalition or alliance... The individual corps are to blame for there own actions the CEO's of those corps should take full blame and not bring shame to what allaince/coalition they choose to be in. No the post clearly says that 3 of the 7 corps were DIRECTLY associated with 2 alliances. And as these corps were closed you can check ingame to see which ones. The remining 4 corps weren't directly associated with any alliance. These 4 were obviouslly alt corps from smarter alliances, like BoB, RA, AAA, Goons, who knows... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gargamell Smurf	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:15:00 - [2047] perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH!
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:17:00 - [2048] Edited by: Kerfira on 14/12/2008 20:22:16 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Maybe he is. But on the other hand, we KNOW you are a BoB alt. I remember your posts in the T20 incident. Huh??? As far as I recall all I posted about that was that I understood why CCP decided not to punish T20 twice... I remember you leading the pitchfork crowd, and not understanding how work rule infractions are customarily dealt with in Europe. You basically said that CCP could treat their employees as they pleased, and not follow their own internal procedures, where I pointed out that this may be how things are done in the US, but is generally not the case in Europe. I didn't like the T20 case either (as I think I said at that time), but as I recall that wasn't the issue at all.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:19:00 - [2049] Just been on CSM chat, No news there 2 years only
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:20:00 - [2050] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 14/12/2008 20:19:51 Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! Why do people keep saying this: http://www.eve-online.com/features/Exodus/

Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:23:00 - [2051] Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! POS came into being approximately 4 years ago, in Exodus, with moon mining and all the goodies. So, where were you, and when did you buy your account exactly?
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:24:00 - [2052] all i know is after 300k reads, 2k replies, ie one of the most read threads in eve, all that is going to happen is people are going to sling **** at each other untill ccp step up and give us the results, and they need to name corps, thats the only way people will stop accusing others
Bilabong Joe	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:29:00 - [2053] Originally by: Xtreem all i know is after 300k reads, 2k replies, ie one of the most read threads in eve, all that is going to happen is people are going to sling **** at each other untill ccp step up and give us the results, and they need to name corps, thats the only way people will stop accusing others WELL SAID CCP GIVE US ANSWERS AND GIVE US RESULTS You have only given us fuel for rummours and hear say so far.................
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:29:00 - [2054] Originally by: Kerfira Huh??? As far as I recall all I posted about that was that I understood why CCP decided not to punish T20 twice... I remember you leading the pitchfork crowd, and not understanding how work rule infractions are customarily dealt with in Europe. You basically said that CCP could treat their employees as they pleased, and not follow their own internal procedures, where I pointed out that this may be how things are done in the US, but is generally not the case in Europe. I didn't like the T20 case either (as I think I said at that time), but as I recall that wasn't the issue at all.... Yes because firing an employee who screwed with the firm is completely unreasonable and against EU laws... I remember you arguing about laws, then, when I proved you wrong, you changed yoru argument to worker unions, and when I proved you wrong again you changed you argument again to lack of professionals in the field, which I had to debunk yet again... But that is an old story and not the case here. The case here is that you are a BoB alt. You attempted to quelch the fires when the scandal was on them, at that time. Now you attempt to burn only a few alliances that happen to be hostile to them, when it is more than likely that they are also part of this. It is pretty obvious to me. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Ragya	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:43:00 - [2055] No news from CCP? Update was expected this week end? US time?
Bilabong Joe	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:46:00 - [2056] Originally by: Ragya No news from CCP? Update was expected this week end? US time? Nothing to do with eve runs on US time so nope doubt that mentioned. they said there having a meeting this weekend not that they would give us an update.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:47:00 - [2057] Originally by: Bilabong Joe Originally by: Ragya No news from CCP? Update was expected this week end? US time? Nothing to do with eve runs on US time so nope doubt that mentioned. they said there having a meeting this weekend not that they would give us an update. Expect the CSM meeting minutes late Monday.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.14 21:03:00 - [2058] Originally by: CSM Bunyip Hello all, Meeting is about to begin. For anybody interested, the chat channel 'CSM Chat' is available if you'd like to speak to a delegate. I, and the rest of the CSM team, look forward to getting some answers for you. This is all I've heard so far.
Arthur Miller Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.12.14 21:44:00 - [2059] I got nothing to say really i am just posting in an epic thread
Vibora BR Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun	Posted - 2008.12.14 21:55:00 - [2060] I love seeing cheaters getting caught.

MMXMMX Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.14 22:05:00 - [2061] Quote: Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. STIL NO NEWS FROM CCP ?
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.14 22:33:00 - [2062] From the CSM Chat channel: The CSM meeting finished. They are typing up a full transcript to be posted tomorrow (the delay is to allow CCP to add explanations where they see fit) and according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such), CCP is expected to publish a report in about a week detailing just how deep the rabbit hole goes. According to Bunyip's alt there was less than a single EVE-wide day's market transactions in artificial ferrogel produced which is to say less than 3 trillion ISK which is good in that it represents a small portion of the economy but it's still potentially enough to have financed one hell of a war in 0.0 replete with titans and outposts. CCP is tracking through every ISK sent to find all those responsible. If a major alliance can be proven to have colluded with the exploiters they will have their assets seized accordingly, though none were specifically discussed. Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months. Only ferrogel was mentioned as having been produced though it is possible that other reactions were exploited. CCP believes alchemy will replace the artificial ferrogel in the market and we won't have a shortage.
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.14 22:35:00 - [2063] CCP! Stay away from my Mega Pulse II's and my T2 ships!!! :(((( -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.14 22:41:00 - [2064] Hmmm i was wondering from quite some time how could some afford so so much and others had to do it the hard way, interesting to see that a large group of people could elude and ripoff CCP for such a long time, and at the same time, well i don't want to believe that CCP staff is so naive as to let things stay with just a couple bans and starbases getting nuked. _____________________________________
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.14 23:03:00 - [2065] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 14/12/2008 23:07:46 Originally by: CSM Short Update ...Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months.... I call bull dung on that one. Not to CSM, but to CCP trying to tell us that this thing has been "widely" abused for 2 months. What does "widely" mean, anything? Does it mean instead of repeated abuse for over the years by some, thus leaked out, and others just jumped on the bandwagon? I am not going to say the words Cover Up, not yet.... not until CCP actually comes out with the report. But, from the carefully orchestrated wording, I would say I need to sharpen my pocking stick. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.14 23:08:00 - [2066] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 14/12/2008 23:08:05 Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: CSM Short Update ...Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months.... I call bull dung on that one. Not to CSM, but to CCP trying to tell us that this thing has been "widely" abused for 2 months. What does "widely" mean anything? Does it mean instead of repeated abuse for over the years by some, thus leaked out, and others just jumped on the bandwagon? Yeah, I agree, If anything it seems like a confirmation that it's been in the game since 4 years ago but wasn't largely exploited till two months ago. Although I have to wonder about the definition of "widely" here.
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.14 23:08:00 - [2067] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: CSM Short Update ...Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months.... I call bull dung on that one. Not to CSM, but to CCP trying to tell us that this thing has been "widely" abused for 2 months. What does "widely" mean anything? Does it mean instead of repeated abuse for over the years by some, thus leaked out, and others just jumped on the bandwagon? Meens that this is big enough for being covered and actually save what little face CCP has left, these guys robbed CCP big time and got away with it. _____________________________________
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.14 23:43:00 - [2068] Originally by: Kwint Sommer From the CSM Chat channel: The CSM meeting finished. They are typing up a full transcript to be posted tomorrow (the delay is to allow CCP to add explanations where they see fit) and according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such), CCP is expected to publish a report in about a week detailing just how deep the rabbit hole goes. According to Bunyip's alt there was less than a single EVE-wide day's market transactions in artificial ferrogel produced which is to say less than 3 trillion ISK which is good in that it represents a small portion of the economy but it's still potentially enough to have financed one hell of a war in 0.0 replete with titans and outposts. CCP is tracking through every ISK sent to find all those responsible. If a major alliance can be proven to have colluded with the exploiters they will have their assets seized accordingly, though none were specifically discussed. Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months. Only ferrogel was mentioned as having been produced though it is possible that other reactions were exploited. CCP believes alchemy will replace the artificial ferrogel in the market and we won't have a shortage. Thank you for the update. Just one comment. The volume of raw materials traded in the market is just PART of the problem. The manufactured T2 products that they most certainly dumped at the market and what was done outside the market may potentially be many times worth the previous value. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:09:00 - [2069] Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 14/12/2008 20:19:51 Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! Why do people keep saying this: http://www.eve-online.com/features/Exodus/ Because of this ?http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936
Power Hungry	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:16:00 - [2070] I think we are looking at it the wrong way. The exploit has been benefiting the people that have utilized it, and that is quite correct. However, the calculations that some people are making is wrong. The number of reactions would still be the same.IMHO The way to calculate it is to calculate what would be the total saving they made by not paying for the manufacturing of the reaction and not how much was manufactured. Most likely the poses would still be there and making the reaction regardless of the exploit. Obviously this is wrong if! it's not profitable to do the reaction unless you utilized the exploit I have read most of the comments, they all seem to be blending in to one, maybe someone has already pointed that out.

Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:19:00 - [2071] Edited by: Dionisius on 15/12/2008 00:22:51 Originally by: elric gallach Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 14/12/2008 20:19:51 Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! Why do people keep saying this: http://www.eve-online.com/features/Exodus/ Because of this ?http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 And this http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/215105/page/1 Funny thing, if you look into the pic hyperlink you'd notice that the guy already has new accounts. Looks like CCP is going to have to go trought alot of trouble just to sort transactions and tracked the materials down, let alone the people involved, wich i bet is alot. /shrugs Originally by: Power Hungry I think we are looking at it the wrong way. The exploit has been benefiting the people that have utilized it, and that is quite correct. However, the calculations that some people are making is wrong. The number of reactions would still be the same.IMHO The way to calculate it is to calculate what would be the total saving they made by not paying for the manufacturing of the reaction and not how much was manufactured. Most likely the poses would still be there and making the reaction regardless of the exploit. Obviously this is wrong if! it's not profitable to do the reaction unless you utilized the exploit I have read most of the comments, they all seem to be blending in to one, maybe someone has already pointed that out. No it is you who are seeing this picture the wrong way, these people actually robbed a company trough their own game.Not considering other players and first of all not considering the people that work to keep this game running. _____________________________________
Stevee Starfighter	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:25:00 - [2072] Maybe i found out what happend 4 years ago and maybe some more often: (please understand the reason of the following petition has nothing to do with the exploit, just take it as an example please gentlemen) Petition wrote on 2008.12.04 in german in "BelSstigungen" what means Harassment(Yes, you can click on german petitions and that¦s what i did in this case, dunno how it was 4 years ago) Answer of CCP on 2008.12.04: Hi, We are sorry, but no German speaking GM's are on shift right now. If you'd rather speak to a German speaking GM, we can transfer your petition so as soon as one is on shift then he/she can help you. Best regards, GM Nythanos The EVE Online Customer Support Team Petition closed at 2008.12.12: This petition was closed by system, timed out while waiting for customer reply hmmmmmmmmmmm....
CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:35:00 - [2073] People cheated, people got caught, I hope CCP will get as many as they can and confiscate as much assets ill gained as possible, and delete all characters that cheated. If this means destabilzing/wiping certain alliances/corporations, then so be it. For the rest, after thinking about this, ( my previous post wasnt very well thought out I agree :p ), while it may have hurt "clean" alliances, if the cheaters get caught now, and proper action is taken, I think we all can or should be able to live with it. It is just like in the real world, some people like to cheat ( criminals ) others try to make an honest living. Wether it is small or large scale doesnt matter, and history is history, these exploits are just part of the eve online history. The only thing that can not happen is that CCP will close an eye for some corporations or alliances. Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC SI era, SWG Pre CU-NGE, Ryzom, EVE Online Retired @ WoW, LOTRO, WAR, Planetside, Diablo I-II, Entropia, UO, Lineage, Guildwa
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:56:00 - [2074] Originally by: elric gallach Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 14/12/2008 20:19:51 Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! Why do people keep saying this: http://www.eve-online.com/features/Exodus/ Because of this ?http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 What's your point? The point is that POSes have indeed been in the game for 4 years. Are you trying to disprove that? Because it's pretty well documented in the features section.
Lusulpher Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:17:00 - [2075] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: elric gallach Originally by: Gamer4liff Edited by: Gamer4liff on 14/12/2008 20:19:51 Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! Why do people keep saying this: http://www.eve-online.com/features/Exodus/ Because of this ?http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 What's your point? The point is that POSes have indeed been in the game for 4 years. Are you trying to disprove that? Because it's pretty well documented in the features section. When was the EXPLOIT discovered? POS were invented years ago to moon mine, but they might have stumbled onto it 2 years/3months ago... Rumours don't count btw. When was the exploit pointed out explicitly? Live and Let Die...All of it...null
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:22:00 - [2076] Originally by: Lusulpher When was the EXPLOIT discovered? POS were invented years ago to moon mine, but they might have stumbled onto it 2 years/3months ago... Rumours don't count btw. When was the exploit pointed out explicitly? Yes but that wasn't my point, that idiot said that moon mining wasn't around 4 years ago when it was. God only knows when the exploit was actually found out, hopefully we'll get some illumination on the subject later. I'm willing to bet it was used before its popularity exploded 2 months ago.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:34:00 - [2077] Looking for an update on the CSM meeting...
Rosalina Sarinna Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:36:00 - [2078] Originally by: Solomon XI Looking for an update on the CSM meeting... Me too, I'm rather interested in hearing what went on in the meeting, or some kind of summary if that isn't available.
Klariso Troben Minmatar Vaportrail Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:37:00 - [2079] Originally by: Haradgrim Edited by: Haradgrim on 14/12/2008 19:25:42 Originally by: Calvin Firenze Originally by: Frobos I just wanted to post in hopes of getting this beast to 69 pages! While I'm here, I'd like to offer a solution for all by quoting one of my favorite movies, The Big Lebowski........ "You see what happens Larry? You see what happens when you *k a stranger in the s ?!?" --posting as the little voices in my head dictate The dude abides... That carpet really tied this thread together.
Rascal Peterson	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:38:00 - [2080] I think the one thing we can count on for certain is that CCP will maintain its policy of being tight lipped and we will not here anything more from them on the matter, except for them to edit posts with questionable content.

Talidorn The Scope	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:43:00 - [2081] Edited by: Talidorn on 15/12/2008 01:43:34 2079 - The year that I will actually have all my skills trained to lvl 5... if ccp keeps adding new skills and content. Anyway - CCP is doing their CCP thing. No amount of whinage is going to help. I waited for this long to reply because I didn't really feel like sharing my original thoughts. <- I knew once I took a deep breath and relaxed my feelings would change. Does it suck? Sure... 70 of XXXXXXXX accounts can FUBAR the whole of the economy. But hey... you get to be on with how many thousand players at the same time? I've had 50 things that made me want to quit EvE... the longest I've stayed away was 6 months. Oh the pain of withdrawls! I'll still be here when the next major exploit, nerf, CCP removal of features, etc. happens. If you wont... Can I have your stuff? Talidorn
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.15 03:50:00 - [2082] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 15/12/2008 03:50:25 For those demanding a CSM update, had you read the last page you would have noticed this: Originally by: Kwint Sommer From the CSM Chat channel: The CSM meeting finished. They are typing up a full transcript to be posted tomorrow (the delay is to allow CCP to add explanations where they see fit) and according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such), CCP is expected to publish a report in about a week detailing just how deep the rabbit hole goes. According to Bunyip's alt there was less than a single EVE-wide day's market transactions in artificial ferrogel produced which is to say less than 3 trillion ISK which is good in that it represents a small portion of the economy but it's still potentially enough to have financed one hell of a war in 0.0 replete with titans and outposts. CCP is tracking through every ISK sent to find all those responsible. If a major alliance can be proven to have colluded with the exploiters they will have their assets seized accordingly, though none were specifically discussed. Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months. Only ferrogel was mentioned as having been produced though it is possible that other reactions were exploited. CCP believes alchemy will replace the artificial ferrogel in the market and we won't have a shortage.
Phillipx	Posted - 2008.12.15 04:28:00 - [2083] Ok, I've quietly watched and read what is going on and here is my take on it Some guy said he noticed it 4 years and petitioned it. It was never fixed. periodically throughout the past few years have gone unheeded. Now all of a sudden, it goes public and all hell breaks loose. The original outing of the guy on the "other forum" stated that it was somewhere int he neighborhood of 2500 to 3000 BILLION isk worth of cheating. so 400m isk for a 60 day gtc at $14.95 US is $9343.00 and change. Now I pay every month for my game since I cant seem to make enough isk to buy a gtc every month, so the cash comes out of the bank. But this guy didn't have to do that, he just set up his reactions and came home to pay dirt every day. and I used the low end number, someone check my math, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. sorry guys, i think ccp owes all of us something in addition to everything else. this isn't a dev giving out some bpo's, this is economy subversion on a grand scale. I for one am very upset about all of this, Why don't we all just buy some isk, this was even worse than that, at least the isk buyers and sellers were actually using the mechanics to sell thier isk. but nooooo ccp say dont buy isk but lets this a55hole get away with free isk for 4 years. sorry im not buying it, they are trying to appease the populace flame on and i dont care about the typos...
Roeth Whitestar Gallente Gemstone Industries	Posted - 2008.12.15 04:40:00 - [2084] I heard that the cheaters will be going to the US Congress tomorrow to request a bail out. I support this message and CCP for banning cheaters.
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 04:42:00 - [2085] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 15/12/2008 03:50:25 For those demanding a CSM update, had you read the last page you would have noticed this: Originally by: Kwint Sommer From the CSM Chat channel: The CSM meeting finished. They are typing up a full transcript to be posted tomorrow (the delay is to allow CCP to add explanations where they see fit) and according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such), CCP is expected to publish a report in about a week detailing just how deep the rabbit hole goes. According to Bunyip's alt there was less than a single EVE-wide day's market transactions in artificial ferrogel produced which is to say less than 3 trillion ISK which is good in that it represents a small portion of the economy but it's still potentially enough to have financed one hell of a war in 0.0 replete with titans and outposts. CCP is tracking through every ISK sent to find all those responsible. If a major alliance can be proven to have colluded with the exploiters they will have their assets seized accordingly, though none were specifically discussed. Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months. Only ferrogel was mentioned as having been produced though it is possible that other reactions were exploited. CCP believes alchemy will replace the artificial ferrogel in the market and we won't have a shortage. This sounds like a coverup in the making to me. Why cant CCP just be honest?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.15 04:48:00 - [2086] Originally by: John'eh Originally by: Kwint Sommer Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 15/12/2008 03:50:25 For those demanding a CSM update, had you read the last page you would have noticed this: Originally by: Kwint Sommer From the CSM Chat channel: The CSM meeting finished. They are typing up a full transcript to be posted tomorrow (the delay is to allow CCP to add explanations where they see fit) and according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such), CCP is expected to publish a report in about a week detailing just how deep the rabbit hole goes. According to Bunyip's alt there was less than a single EVE-wide day's market transactions in artificial ferrogel produced which is to say less than 3 trillion ISK which is good in that it represents a small portion of the economy but it's still potentially enough to have financed one hell of a war in 0.0 replete with titans and outposts. CCP is tracking through every ISK sent to find all those responsible. If a major alliance can be proven to have colluded with the exploiters they will have their assets seized accordingly, though none were specifically discussed. Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months. Only ferrogel was mentioned as having been produced though it is possible that other reactions were exploited. CCP believes alchemy will replace the artificial ferrogel in the market and we won't have a shortage. This sounds like a coverup in the making to me. Why cant CCP just be honest? Not to white knight CCP, god knows there's enough of that in this thread already, but what part of that says coverup to you? I mean sure it's vauge but the meat of the details will come later.
Anne Archer	Posted - 2008.12.15 05:34:00 - [2087] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: John'eh Originally by: Kwint Sommer Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 15/12/2008 03:50:25 For those demanding a CSM update, had you read the last page you would have noticed this: Originally by: Kwint Sommer From the CSM Chat channel: Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months. Only ferrogel was mentioned as having been produced though it is possible that other reactions were exploited. This sounds like a coverup in the making to me. Why cant CCP just be honest? Not to white knight CCP, god knows there's enough of that in this thread already, but what part of that says coverup to you? I mean sure it's vauge but the meat of the details will come later. I think this is what he may be referencing. I find it a little hard to believe that this exploit that has been around and used for 4 years and only suddenly became "widely abused in the last two months." At this point I have some serious doubts even, that CCP would have released the information if it hadn't been made public on a third party forum first, which I thnk forced a response. That's not looking good from a trust standpoint between the players and CCP for me. I have had several toons around for almost two years now and not until the last several months have I really started to feel that CCP does not give a crap about the player's feedback at all. (Especially with this Quantum Rise patch) With all of the negative feedback and multiple +50 page forum threads of players complaining about certain things in QR and no positive response from CCP it really starts to make we wonder where EVE is headed. and no you can't have my stuff if I decide to leave. I'll burn it all in effigy first! We'll just have to play the wait and see game once more for now.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.15 05:40:00 - [2088] Originally by: Anne Archer I have had several toons around for almost two years now and not until the last several months have I really started to feel that CCP does not give a crap about the player's feedback at all. (Especially with this Quantum Rise patch) With all of the negative feedback and multiple +50 page forum threads of players complaining about certain things in QR and no positive response from CCP it really starts to make we wonder where EVE is headed. Put yourself in their shoes, for months they hear nothing but "Stop making features, cure lag", and here we have an expansion whose centerpiece is massive lag reductions, and what do people say? "not enough content, lame expansion". You can't please all the people all the time, but CCP at least makes the effort.
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2008.12.15 06:28:00 - [2089] Originally by: Delos Korelian Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! POS came into being approximately 4 years ago, in Exodus, with moon mining and all the goodies. So, where were you, and when did you buy your account exactly?
Braad Losan	Posted - 2008.12.15 07:05:00 - [2090] Originally by: Solomon XI Looking for an update on the CSM meeting... Me three. This has exploit has gotten a lot of attention. I wonder how many people will try eve because of the attention this has gotten. I wonder if it will change the map on who controls what and what the long term effects really will be.

Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 07:11:00 - [2091] Originally by: John'eh Originally by: Kwint Sommer Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 15/12/2008 03:50:25 For those demanding a CSM update, had you read the last page you would have noticed this: Originally by: Kwint Sommer From the CSM Chat channel: The CSM meeting finished. They are typing up a full transcript to be posted tomorrow (the delay is to allow CCP to add explanations where they see fit) and according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such), CCP is expected to publish a report in about a week detailing just how deep the rabbit hole goes. According to Bunyip's alt there was less than a single EVE-wide day's market transactions in artificial ferrogel produced which is to say less than 3 trillion ISK which is good in that it represents a small portion of the economy but it's still potentially enough to have financed one hell of a war in 0.0 replete with titans and outposts. CCP is tracking through every ISK sent to find all those responsible. If a major alliance can be proven to have colluded with the exploiters they will have their assets seized accordingly, though none were specifically discussed. Supposedly, the exploit was only widely abused in the last two months. Only ferrogel was mentioned as having been produced though it is possible that other reactions were exploited. CCP believes alchemy will replace the artificial ferrogel in the market and we won't have a shortage. This sounds like a coverup in the making to me. Why cant CCP just be honest? Whine more you little ****heads. Why do you think CCP never says anything to you? Probably because as soon as they do you say they're lying. You're going to believe the word of a banned player with absolutely no concrete evidence over the maker of the game with everything to lose if they're caught in a lie? If he came up with one single shred of proof, one single screen shot that could date the age of the exploit to what he said it was then I'd believe it. Too bad he hasn't. How about you go subscribe to some good newsletters and get back to building your tinfoil bunker.
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 07:15:00 - [2092] What I am saying is that CPP is lying to us, and would not have even admitted this much without third parties stepping in. They want to protect themselves, and the devs want to protect each other, and will do so at the expense of anything we have because they dont have anybody inside CPP watching them or otherwise holding them accountable. The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team; Official Software Test Engineers and Software Development Engineers in Test for Eve dont exist. This is why we have never seen anybody with that title at the cons, etc and it has always been about the devs. This fact makes me feel better because if they really did exist, they would all be worthless incompetents who have no actual software testing background or skill, and I say that as a professional Game Developer, Programmers, and Game QA Guy who has done Software Testing and Development (And Development For Test) for over a decade. The fact is they are lazy, don't do any real testing, and expect us to use Sis to to find the bugs for them, because the software methodology they use to develop Eve (Agile/Scrum/Etc) is NOT friendly to Testing/Quality Assurance/Making sure Devs are not cheating. Except of course for the ones they add themselves, the "features" the devs add without telling others so that there alliances and friends will have an advantage and then clsim are bugs when outside sources rub there noses in it and they don't have the power to delete it. The fact is, things like this never would have happened if a quality assurance team existed and had the power they should have to be the checks and balances and keep the deveopers accountable; I know this from over a decade of working in the industry, and my own experience says that many of the things we are being told now is a flat out lie, but unfortunately most of the people told to repeat them - marketing people, public relations, etc - dont know they are being lied to so they really do believe what they are repeating. I DEMAND that a QA/Test role that IS NOT OUTSOURCED TO IGNORANT BUTTON PUSHERS WHO CAN NOT AUDIT CODE be immediately created at CCP, and is staffed by somebody with testing chops that will not bend over for dev, will file bugs and drive issue, hold dev accountable, and police cheats like this from even being entered into the code base. They must have the hjob description and authority to not be scared into letting the devs do stuff like this, and all devs should be immediately have there code audited by this newly created team , and fired if something is found by this team that can be considered intentional. In Short: I want software developers to be hired to Software Quality Assurance positions with the sole role, goal and intention of finding, hunting, auditing, and if needed terminating (and podding) of any dev who cheats by either adding code like this, or attempting to do so.
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.15 07:40:00 - [2093] Originally by: John'eh The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team; Official Software Test Engineers and Software Development Engineers in Test for Eve dont exist. This is why we have never seen anybody with that title at the cons, etc and it has always been about the devs. Oh my god! You're right! There is no CCP! It's all a lie! CCP is a conspiracy! I'm sure Bush is behind it. Or Obama. Or both! We've all dreamt Eve. What kind of weird people are we that dream something like CCP and Eve? Hmm? --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 07:42:00 - [2094] Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: John'eh The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team; Official Software Test Engineers and Software Development Engineers in Test for Eve dont exist. This is why we have never seen anybody with that title at the cons, etc and it has always been about the devs. Oh my god! You're right! There is no CCP! It's all a lie! CCP is a conspiracy! I'm sure Bush is behind it. Or Obama. Or both! We've all dreamt Eve. What kind of weird people are we that dream something like CCP and Eve? Hmm? I'm calling it now. The guys in the fanfest presentation were paid actors.
Gargamell Smurf	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:02:00 - [2095] Originally by: Delos Korelian Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! POS came into being approximately 4 years ago, in Exodus, with moon mining and all the goodies. So, where were you, and when did you buy your account exactly? ooooooooh, forgive me. I guess that POS have been here for EXACTLY 4 years now. I am sooooooo sorry. I have been here for 4 years and about 6 months. When I started EVE, there were no POS. Excuse me for not noticing that POS had finally just reached their 4th birthday. Gosh, how stupid of me.
Thanatomania Darksaber Technologies Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:03:00 - [2096] Any Dev response forthcoming? any response at all? or should I fart into a bag and hold it for next issue release?
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:48:00 - [2097] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: John'eh The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team; Official Software Test Engineers and Software Development Engineers in Test for Eve dont exist. This is why we have never seen anybody with that title at the cons, etc and it has always been about the devs. Oh my god! You're right! There is no CCP! It's all a lie! CCP is a conspiracy! I'm sure Bush is behind it. Or Obama. Or both! We've all dreamt Eve. What kind of weird people are we that dream something like CCP and Eve? Hmm? I'm calling it now. The guys in the fanfest presentation were paid actors. Do you have trouble reading? Because you clearly misunderstood the quote you included..!?
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:51:00 - [2098] Originally by: John'eh What I am saying is that CPP is lying to us, and would not have even admitted this much without third parties stepping in. They want to protect themselves, and the devs want to protect each other, and will do so at the expense of anything we have because they dont have anybody inside CPP watching them or otherwise holding them accountable. The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team; Official Software Test Engineers and Software Development Engineers in Test for Eve dont exist. This is why we have never seen anybody with that title at the cons, etc and it has always been about the devs. This fact makes me feel better because if they really did exist, they would all be worthless incompetents who have no actual software testing background or skill, and I say that as a professional Game Developer, Programmers, and Game QA Guy who has done Software Testing and Development (And Development For Test) for over a decade. The fact is they are lazy, don't do any real testing, and expect us to use Sis to to find the bugs for them, because the software methodology they use to develop Eve (Agile/Scrum/Etc) is NOT friendly to Testing/Quality Assurance/Making sure Devs are not cheating. Except of course for the ones they add themselves, the "features" the devs add without telling others so that there alliances and friends will have an advantage and then clsim are bugs when outside sources rub there noses in it and they don't have the power to delete it. The fact is, things like this never would have happened if a quality assurance team existed and had the power they should have to be the checks and balances and keep the deveopers accountable; I know this from over a decade of working in the industry, and my own experience says that many of the things we are being told now is a flat out lie, but unfortunately most of the people told to repeat them - marketing people, public relations, etc - dont know they are being lied to so they really do believe what they are repeating. I DEMAND that a QA/Test role that IS NOT OUTSOURCED TO IGNORANT BUTTON PUSHERS WHO CAN NOT AUDIT CODE be immediately created at CCP, and is staffed by somebody with testing chops that will not bend over for dev, will file bugs and drive issue, hold dev accountable, and police cheats like this from even being entered into the code base. They must have the hjob description and authority to not be scared into letting the devs do stuff like this, and all devs should be immediately have there code audited by this newly created team , and fired if something is found by this team that can be considered intentional. In Short: I want software developers to be hired to Software Quality Assurance positions with the sole role, goal and intention of finding, hunting, auditing, and if needed terminating (and podding) of any dev who cheats by either adding code like this, or attempting to do so. Hi derek There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Clone 62a	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:54:00 - [2099] Whine more you little ****heads. Why do you think CCP never says anything to you? Probably because as soon as they do you say they're lying. You're going to believe the word of a banned player with absolutely no concrete evidence over the maker of the game with everything to lose if they're caught in a lie? If he came up with one single shred of proof, one single screen shot that could date the age of the exploit to what he said it was then I'd believe it. Too bad he hasn't. How about you go subscribe to some good newsletters and get back to building your tinfoil bunker. Yes, very constructive, thanks. Now get back under your bridge and the old plan of ambushing the 3 goats you love so much.
Happatai	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:59:00 - [2100] Originally by: Thanatomania Any Dev response forthcoming? any response at all? or should I fart into a bag and hold it for next issue release? This is where I see things as well, I wish CCP would at least have the courtesy to give us the illusion of things being fixed/looked into with a dev canned-response... "Working as intended."

Plague Black 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.15 09:25:00 - [2101] Originally by: John'eh ...because the software methodology they use to develop Eve (Agile/Scrum/Etc) is NOT friendly to Testing/Quality Assurance/Making sure Devs are not cheating... OMFG! CCP uses Scrum?!? AHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHA!!! No wonder they are all **ed up and in a mess. AHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! That explains everything! I forgive you CCP folks, I feel your pain. Product owners, chicken and pigs, scrum masters, daily standups... I'm just puzzled that your bussiness guys accepted methodology that is good when you build doggy houses to build bridges and skysc**rs. Be aware, next step is total breakdown in software quality without the ability to acctualy blame it on anyone since no one has any responsibility in scrum. Maybe I should request from my CSM representative to acctualy push for CCP moving away from scrum.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 09:29:00 - [2102] Originally by: Plague Black Originally by: John'eh ...because the software methodology they use to develop Eve (Agile/Scrum/Etc) is NOT friendly to Testing/Quality Assurance/Making sure Devs are not cheating... OMFG! CCP uses Scrum?!? AHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHA!!! No wonder they are all **ed up and in a mess. AHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! That explains everything! I forgive you CCP folks, I feel your pain. Product owners, chicken and pigs, scrum masters, daily standups... I'm just puzzled that your bussiness guys accepted methodology that is good when you build doggy houses to build bridges and skysc**rs. Be aware, next step is total breakdown in software quality without the ability to acctualy blame it on anyone since no one has any responsibility in scrum. Maybe I should request from my CSM representative to acctualy push for CCP moving away from scrum. The funny part is that by all accounts this exploit was created before they started SCRUM.
Kuade	Posted - 2008.12.15 09:32:00 - [2103] Edited by: Kuade on 15/12/2008 09:32:36 I just want to say that ... So i played the game for 2 years and some months approximately, the thing i know is that EVE economics system is like the real one in so many aspects that this exploit (as it so big) will effect the economy so bad that many people(95% at least if not 100%) will be effected. In short CRISIS. So ladies and gentlemen be prepared. There is some ways CCP to get involved and decrease the scale of this but i doubt it will be done - because one thing leads to onother and this economy system is not presented in none other game. P.S: Rumours just make this awful cause there are people that will take advantage of this.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.15 09:53:00 - [2104] Originally by: John'eh What I am saying is that CPP is lying to us, But you say "saying" doesn't make that true. Care to provide any evidence? No - I'm not talking about rumors, assumptions and conjectures - I do mean some sort of credible evidence. Originally by: John'eh and would not have even admitted this much without third parties stepping in. Can't know either way. But as long as they fixed the problem I wouldn't actually care if they announced in in bold letters on front page or not. I'm sure they quietly fix a lot of bugs. Shrug. Why would they create storms that make people emoragequit when they don't have to? Originally by: John'eh They want to protect themselves, Oh those crazy people and their evil ways. Wait ... - you want them to not protect themselves? You in their shoes would prefer to hurt yourselve? Come on - get real. Originally by: John'eh The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team; Please note the whole fanfest video dedicated to the QA team (ccpgames youtube channel). Then also look up definition of "fact" and how it differs from "assumptions", Originally by: John'eh [...] if they really did exist, they would all be worthless incompetents who have no actual software testing background or skill, Yeah - because EVE is such a simple piece of software. Few variables and interactions. Very linear and static. No new features in years. [more angry bla bla] Sorry - couldn't be bothered to read and comment the rest. Always the same gut-driven angry tinfoil hat conspiracy and baseless accusation stuff. I'm truly sorry this gets you so overexcited. Calm down. Put down the torch and pitchfork please. The only thing I'd like to see from CCP is a bit more proactive information policy. Not within the first fgew hours of a threadnought. Nobody can provide valid anwers in the middle of local night while a zillion forum warriors go ballistic and forum mods are already overworked. The real life facts are these: EVE is a beast of software and fast moving complex data. It will never be bug-free. No matter how much QA people and devs you throw at the problem. Some bugs will be worse than others. Too bad. Let's deal with it and move on. This particular bug is not even close to being the big problem the tinfoil crowd here makes it out to be. T2 prices will rise - pff - so what? The same effect could be the result of feature changes in a patch - or simply more players on TQ. If it's a consistent problem CCP will deal with it by tuning stuff like alchemy. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Cash collections	Posted - 2008.12.15 10:16:00 - [2105] Edited by: Cash collections on 15/12/2008 10:20:47 Guys its a game, who the ** cares seriously. Maybe prices will change but thats the same for everyone. Adapt or die. Oh and btw, I for one am of the opinion that this was done by every major entity in eve thats been around a few years, and while the people particularly taking the ** need to go as an example i dont believe that its good for the game to hit these alliances with the ban stick.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.15 10:42:00 - [2106] Originally by: Kwint Sommer according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such) Eh? I have no idea what you are talking about. I know of no alts belonging to Bunyip?
Raul Watanabe Gallente NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:13:00 - [2107] I strongly believe we need more fear mongering and finger pointing, i nominate the player 'Leigh Edser' as an exploiter and sometime conjurer of cheap tricks
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:21:00 - [2108] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Kwint Sommer according to someone claiming to be Bunyip's alt (LVV acknowledge him as such) Eh? I have no idea what you are talking about. I know of no alts belonging to Bunyip? It appears we've been hoodwinked! Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Maria Martillo Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:38:00 - [2109] The Lack of real information is disturbing.....
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:45:00 - [2110] Originally by: Maria Martillo The Lack of real information is disturbing..... Please be patient while CCP releases the minutes of the meeting. They will be released today, so don't despair.

spyor	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:46:00 - [2111] ok bored to death with this one, unsticky thread, lock it... case closed! Move on to the next one.
Precurseur Gallente Friendly Insurgency Coalition of the ExtraOrdinary	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:56:00 - [2112] Time for my yearly break from EVE, time for a snooze whilst the chaos ensues :) I'm going out for a walk, I may be some time...
Mat rix Final Destination.	Posted - 2008.12.15 12:11:00 - [2113] Im still waiting, and expecting a detailed response from ccp. and why no word from the csm yet, have they been gagged?
Ilda Mrika	Posted - 2008.12.15 12:17:00 - [2114] Edited by: Ilda Mrika on 15/12/2008 12:20:38 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Maria Martillo The Lack of real information is disturbing..... Please be patient while CCP releases the minutes of the meeting. They will be released today, so don't despair. Yeah, should come soon Ö... so don't dispair. I'm guessing no later than 2009, lol. Edit: After all, it has only been 8 days since the petition was noticed by someone honest at CCP. And only 5 years since it was first noticed by someone dishonest at CCP. We can wait can't we? We are used to it by now.
Doonoo Boonoo	Posted - 2008.12.15 12:31:00 - [2115] Originally by: Ilda Mrika Edit: After all, it has only been 8 days since the petition was noticed by someone honest at CCP. And only 5 years since it was first noticed by someone dishonest at CCP. We can wait can't we? We are used to it by now. 5 years? T2 didn't even exist 5 years ago. Do you have any more paranoid lies based on your own lack of knowledge of the game or is this as far as your Ignorance will stretch?
Jhonas Riddick	Posted - 2008.12.15 12:33:00 - [2116] As someone who has been here roughly five minutes compared to the long-term players I doubt this has had any effect on my playing experience whatsoever. My interest in this has nothing to do with the actually exploit and it's effects but how CCP handle this kind of situation when it occurs. If this has been going on for four years I will be mildly surprised that it hasn't been noticed before now, regardless of petitions. That in itself says something.
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.12.15 12:54:00 - [2117] 71 pages, eh? Nice. Only 125 more till it catches up with the other epic going on atm.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 13:00:00 - [2118] Originally by: Tasty Bit 71 pages, eh? Nice. Only 125 more till it catches up with the other epic going on atm. But the other thread is way more pointless. Imagine arguing that you're entitled to something for nothing. Using that logic the moon mining exploit was the right way to go. Therefore everyone who complained in that thread and this one at the same time is hereby declared a hypocrite. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Ilda Mrika	Posted - 2008.12.15 13:03:00 - [2119] Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo Originally by: Ilda Mrika Edit: After all, it has only been 8 days since the petition was noticed by someone honest at CCP. And only 5 years since it was first noticed by someone dishonest at CCP. We can wait can't we? We are used to it by now. 5 years? T2 didn't even exist 5 years ago. Do you have any more paranoid lies based on your own lack of knowledge of the game or is this as far as your Ignorance will stretch? Acording to what's been mentioned several times by the banned ones, they reported the event on the day starbases were deployed. Get it now?
Killer Gandry Caldari Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2008.12.15 13:14:00 - [2120] Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 13:14:42 Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 13:14:07 Originally by: Ilda Mrika Acording to what's been mentioned several times by the banned ones, they reported the event on the day starbases were deployed. Get it now? Reporting a bug or exploit doesn't mean you just have to use it till it get's fixed. Even though the fix took ages there was no reason in fair gameplay that dictated them to abuse the exploit into their own advantage over the years. And even though CCP slacked horribly in this matter, it doesn't make the actions of those who used the exploit any better. Get it now?

Gone'Postal Minmatar Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.12.15 13:14:00 - [2121] Originally by: Maria Martillo The Lack of real information is disturbing..... CCP are never fast.
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.15 13:50:00 - [2122] Originally by: Killer Gandry Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 13:14:42 Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 13:14:07 Originally by: Ilda Mrika Acording to what's been mentioned several times by the banned ones, they reported the event on the day starbases were deployed. Get it now? Reporting a bug or exploit doesn't mean you just have to use it till it get's fixed. Even though the fix took ages there was no reason in fair gameplay that dictated them to abuse the exploit into their own advantage over the years. And even though CCP slacked horribly in this matter, it doesn't make the actions of those who used the exploit any better. Get it now? Because we are all naive and lacking in reading comprehension skills just as the likes of you. Get it now? _____________________________________
Jhonas Riddick	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:06:00 - [2123] Edited by: Jhonas Rid*** on 15/12/2008 14:06:51* Sorry, but "just as the likes of you".. ??? /Standsup I'm Jhonas and I am obviously lacking in reading comprehenshun skills. /Sitsdown
Zukira Al'Kalish	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:18:00 - [2124] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Kerfira Huh??? As far as I recall all I posted about that was that I understood why CCP decided not to punish T20 twice... I remember you leading the pitchfork crowd, and not understanding how work rule infractions are customarily dealt with in Europe. other irrelevant stuff Yes... other irrelevant stuff Then quit the rest of your senseless talking, and start waving these around. * hands pitch fork and torch to Etho *
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:26:00 - [2125] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: John'eh What I am saying is that CPP is lying to us, But you say "saying" doesn't make that true. Care to provide any evidence? No - I'm not talking about rumors, assumptions and conjectures - I do mean some sort of credible evidence. Originally by: John'eh and would not have even admitted this much without third parties stepping in. Can't know either way. But as long as they fixed the problem I wouldn't actually care if they announced in in bold letters on front page or not. I'm sure they quietly fix a lot of bugs. Shrug. Why would they create storms that make people emoragequit when they don't have to? Originally by: John'eh They want to protect themselves, Oh those crazy people and their evil ways. Wait ... - you want them to not protect themselves? You in their shoes would prefer to hurt yourselve? Come on - get real. Originally by: John'eh The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team; Please note the whole fanfest video dedicated to the QA team (ccpgames youtube channel). Then also look up definition of "fact" and how it differs from "assumptions", Originally by: John'eh [...] if they really did exist, they would all be worthless incompetents who have no actual software testing background or skill, For somebody who claims to know so much and be so wise you are are ignorant. What most people here dont know (becouse they dont code games and dont get paid to code for a living) is that there are basicly a few types of testers. 1. Manual Tester (QA Engineer). They play the game, look for issues by pushing buttons. They are not technical people, but they should be able to think out logic tables. Often, they are given what to look at by the devs, and are not able to look at things not on that list. 2, SDETS (Dev in the QA Realm) They audit the actual code of the project, and will often write tools to break it or otherwise create things called "Test Cases", basically "What If" Scenarios that look for issues like POS giving out free stuff. They are technical people, and will often be as good or better then the devs themselves in writing and understanding code. They help the most by coding up things that make sure that once a bug is found or thought of, the code they write (the 'test automation') detects regressions so when things get fixed they STAY FIXED. The QA team we say are all Manual Testers. Not very good ones either, and most with a localization and editorial focus based on what I have seen. Eve needs more SDETS, becouse they will activly police and hold the devs accountable.
Space Wraith	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:32:00 - [2126] Unless the corporations used third party sellers, the problem is pretty much fixed. Not much else that can be done....In real life this would be like the california gold rush, and the price of gold dropping, now that the rush is broken prices will stabalize. Does bring up the question of where else in space there are more endless supplies, CCP needs to look at the code and then do a system wide scan to find more exploits. Not much else can be done
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:38:00 - [2127] has anybody googled. Today I become freed from my chains in EVE ???
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:42:00 - [2128] Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 15/12/2008 14:42:17 Originally by: Karille Originally by: Tasty Bit 71 pages, eh? Nice. Only 125 more till it catches up with the other epic going on atm. But the other thread is way more pointless. Imagine arguing that you're entitled to something for nothing. Using that logic the moon mining exploit was the right way to go. Therefore everyone who complained in that thread and this one at the same time is hereby declared a hypocrite. You fail @ Assertion Logic 101. Imagine a state guarantee a right and then one day suddenly removing it from the constitution, while claiming that it never existed and declaring everyone who made use of it before a criminal. I will not mention what people agreeing to or supporting such a decision should be called.
Ilda Mrika	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:43:00 - [2129] Originally by: Killer Gandry Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 13:14:42 Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 13:14:07 Originally by: Ilda Mrika Acording to what's been mentioned several times by the banned ones, they reported the event on the day starbases were deployed. Get it now? Reporting a bug or exploit doesn't mean you just have to use it till it get's fixed. Even though the fix took ages there was no reason in fair gameplay that dictated them to abuse the exploit into their own advantage over the years. And even though CCP slacked horribly in this matter, it doesn't make the actions of those who used the exploit any better. Get it now? The discussion was about how long CCP knows about the bug, not if the players should or not exploit it. Get it?
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:47:00 - [2130] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 15/12/2008 14:42:17 Originally by: Karille Originally by: Tasty Bit 71 pages, eh? Nice. Only 125 more till it catches up with the other epic going on atm. But the other thread is way more pointless. Imagine arguing that you're entitled to something for nothing. Using that logic the moon mining exploit was the right way to go. Therefore everyone who complained in that thread and this one at the same time is hereby declared a hypocrite. You fail @ Assertion Logic 101. Imagine a state guarantee a right and then one day suddenly removing it from the constitution, while claiming that it never existed and declaring everyone who made use of it before a criminal. I will not mention what people agreeing to or supporting such a decision should be called. Nope, i'm right. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.

Killer Gandry Caldari Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:05:00 - [2131] Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 15:06:28 Originally by: Ilda Mrika The discussion was about how long CCP knows about the bug, not if the players should or not exploit it. Get it? Simply put then so the impaired get the point. CCP slacked bigtime in this matter, this however doesn't excuse the actions of those using the exploit in any way. You can not in any way defend the fact some people don't know how to fair play by the fact that some CCP employees should get special education. Let's not pretend that it was CCP's fault the exploiters abused a broken game mechanic to their own advantage. CCP bummed up bigtime I agree. And in no way the bug has been in place for a short time. But trying to get the attention away from the exploiters by nailing CCP to a crusifix won't make them less responcible for the abuse.
Tia a'Kanat	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:09:00 - [2132] Originally by: Talsha Talamar Imagine a state guarantee a right and then one day suddenly removing it from the constitution, while claiming that it never existed and declaring everyone who made use of it before a criminal. I will not mention what people agreeing to or supporting such a decision should be called. Republicans?
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:13:00 - [2133] Edited by: Callib Gor''Karrithe on 15/12/2008 15:14:13 Originally by: John'eh angry post snipped What most people here don't know (because they don't code games and don't get paid to code for a living) is that there are basically a few ranges/types of testers. 1. Manual Tester (QA Engineer). They play the game, look for issues by pushing buttons. They are not technical people, but they should be able to think out logic tables. Often, they are given what to look at by the devs, and are not able to look at things not on that list. 2, SDETS (Dev in the QA Realm) They audit the actual code of the project, and will often write tools to break it or otherwise create things called "Test Cases", basically "What If" Scenarios that look for issues like POS giving out free stuff. They are technical people, and will often be as good or better then the devs themselves in writing and understanding code. They help the most by coding up things that make sure that once a bug is found or thought of, the code they write (the 'test automation') detects regressions so when things get fixed they STAY FIXED. The QA team we say are all Manual Testers. Not very good ones either, and most with a localization and editorial focus based on what I have seen. Eve needs more SDETS, because they will actively police and hold the devs accountable. "Microsoft Testing," John'eh... they use Microsoft Testing methods. Instead of a Beta Test phase, they've decided to just start pumping that code right out to us, so WE find the bugs. It's a lot cheaper to run a business when your testers PAY YOU to test. As for the obvious requirement of more SDETS, do you really think this would have helped them in this situation? You don't need an SDETS to uncover a bug like that... if anyone playing the game can easily uncover it, there's no need to streaming through the code, or running batch tests against the environment. This is just a flat out case of UBF (User Brain Failure)... or I guess, more direct to this situation: TBF (Tester Brain Failure). Some of the first things one would figure would be tested when you toss a feature like this (building things in a new way) into a game should be: 1) Can I build something AT ALL? 2) Can I build something without using ALL of the components? 3) Can I build something from NOTHING? 4) Can I build something with only the blueprints? 5) Can I build something with only the materials? I don't see any reason to call up the support of someone with knowledge of how the code works... use case 3 would fail (Well, the answer would be yes, but when the expected answer is "no" then "yes" counts as a failure). I can see what you mean but for cases like this, all you need is testers who don't have rocks for brains. Then again I'm also too hard on teters in general. Where I work, we work with health care information (Ontario's Ministry of Health)... so errors like that are just flat-out unacceptable. We don't run the risk fo people playing a game for free where I work... we just run the risk of doctors making millions [of real dollars] off of exploiting errors in the system. That said, finding an eliminating bugs (especially in areas dealing with money) is a top priority... screwing off on problems as appears to have been done would cause people a huge pile of troubles. Disclaimer: I'm writing this at work after a frustrating encounter first thing in the morning. I'm not trying to be confrontational or say something like, "You're an idiot, John'eh." I just see things a little differently and have offered my viewpoint. A lot of people seem to be chucking some awefully pointy sticks at eachother in this thread, so I just want to make sure I'm not giving the wrong impression.
Ilda Mrika	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:18:00 - [2134] Originally by: Killer Gandry Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 15:06:28 Originally by: Ilda Mrika The discussion was about how long CCP knows about the bug, not if the players should or not exploit it. Get it? Simply put then so the impaired get the point. CCP slacked bigtime in this matter, this however doesn't excuse the actions of those using the exploit in any way. You can not in any way defend the fact some people don't know how to fair play by the fact that some CCP employees should get special education. Let's not pretend that it was CCP's fault the exploiters abused a broken game mechanic to their own advantage. CCP bummed up bigtime I agree. And in no way the bug has been in place for a short time. But trying to get the attention away from the exploiters by nailing CCP to a crusifix won't make them less responcible for the abuse. I agree 100%. If it was me, I would post on the forums until someone did something about it. But the main thing is, what did CCP had to gain by ignoring these bug petitions? Nothing at all. But someone had to gain from keeping this bug hidden from the rest of the company. Who was it? GM, developer, who? And what happend to this person...? Of course I would like to know the names of all corps and alliances that have benifit with this exploit. I think we all do.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:22:00 - [2135] Originally by: Ilda Mrika I agree 100%. If it was me, I would post on the forums until someone did something about it. But the main thing is, what did CCP had to gain by ignoring these bug petitions? Nothing at all. But someone had to gain from keeping this bug hidden from the rest of the company. Who was it? GM, developer, who? And what happend to this person...? Of course I would like to know the names of all corps and alliances that have benifit with this exploit. I think we all do. It has to have been Federation Navy Testing Facilities right? Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:40:00 - [2136] Edited by: Kerfira on 15/12/2008 15:40:47 Originally by: Talsha Talamar You fail @ Assertion Logic 101. Imagine a state guarantee a right and then one day suddenly removing it from the constitution, while claiming that it never existed and declaring everyone who made use of it before a criminal. I will not mention what people agreeing to or supporting such a decision should be called. And you fail on so many levels its not even funny, but tragic.... First of all, nobody ever guaranteed that ghost training would be forever. Second, the rules of how to change the 'constitution' was followed to the letter (CCP can change it at any time, and YOU signed onto it). Third, there's something of a difference between a constitution and an internet space game. Fourth, EVE is not a democracy (which given the average intelligence of EVE forum posters is fortunate as hell). Fifth, crying that someone took away your free lunch months ago is pathetic. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
An'nah Hasheshnapoor	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:59:00 - [2137] OK, I'm lost. CCP detects exploit ... what was it? I couldn't bear to flip through 70+ pages of rant to find it. Ferro-whatsit? Several stations pulling complex reactions off a moon with a rare T2 material? I don't know enough about reactions to figure this out, so be gentle. Demand QA? I guess that means you DEMAND that CCP increase its already sizable monthly fee to support / finance this new department. I can only assume (making an ass out of you and me) that he devs debug as much of the mountain of code as they can. I do agree that the logic and/or implementation behind some features may not have been fully explored. The curse of spaghetti code. If/when CCP discovers an exploit of the game, they act and fix it. Maybe not as fast as we would like it, but they do address it. Rather than whine/bellyache or complain like my 7 year old niece, you can either state your case logically, shut up and deal with it, or hit the cancel subscription button.
Tia a'Kanat Caldari Paramilitary Skanks	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:02:00 - [2138] Originally by: An'nah Hasheshnapoor CCP detects exploit ... what was it? I couldn't bear to flip through 70+ pages of rant to find it. Rather than whine/bellyache or complain like my 7 year old niece, you can either state your case logically, shut up and deal with it, or hit the cancel subscription button. So you didn't read through the thread, but just assumed that everyone is crying like your niece? Welcome, you'll fit right in on EVE forums.
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:14:00 - [2139] Edited by: Dionisius on 15/12/2008 16:17:16 Edited by: Dionisius on 15/12/2008 16:16:13 Originally by: Killer Gandry Edited by: Killer Gandry on 15/12/2008 15:06:28 Originally by: Ilda Mrika The discussion was about how long CCP knows about the bug, not if the players should or not exploit it. Get it? Simply put then so the impaired get the point. CCP slacked bigtime in this matter, this however doesn't excuse the actions of those using the exploit in any way. Dude you must be looking at a mirror when you write this stuff... Originally by: Killer Gandry You can not in any way defend the fact some people don't know how to fair play by the fact that some CCP employees should get special education. Let's not pretend that it was CCP's fault the exploiters abused a broken game mechanic to their own advantage. Errrmm, so they left a "bug" running for 4 years, had it petitioned by a player, had the same petition closed and then... errrm. Originally by: Killer Gandry CCP bummed up bigtime I agree. And in no way the bug has been in place for a short time. But trying to get the attention away from the exploiters by nailing CCP to a crusifix won't make them less responcible for the abuse. So first CCP slacked big time, but its not their fault, they just bummed big time, yet it is still not their fault, ultimately you agree but still lets not nail CCP to a crucifix, because its not CCP's responsability letting some bug going on indefinately.... Perhaps a bit of thinkin before writing is in order youngman. Clearly CCP knows about the bug for a very long time but someone decided to ignore it, until it boiled down to "today", ur either a noobcake, or very naive if you think or believe that this hasn't been abused for as long as it could possibly had, wich is, about 2 to 4 years?! _____________________________________
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:21:00 - [2140] Originally by: Dionisius Anger... Perhaps a bit of thinkin before writing is in order youngman. Clearly CCP knows about the bug for a very long time but someone decided to ignore it, until it boiled down to "today", ur either a noobcake, or very naive if you think or believe that this hasn't been abused for as long as it could possibly had, wich is, about 2 to 4 years?! Ur proof. Let me see it. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.

Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:34:00 - [2141] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Dionisius Anger... Perhaps a bit of thinkin before writing is in order youngman. Clearly CCP knows about the bug for a very long time but someone decided to ignore it, until it boiled down to "today", ur either a noobcake, or very naive if you think or believe that this hasn't been abused for as long as it could possibly had, wich is, about 2 to 4 years?! Ur proof. Let me see it. Here, http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/215105 You seem to be very interested in something, first of all i'm so angry so angry that i'm eating cashew like there is no tomorrow, and then, what just exactly are you trying to prove with your ramblings around here? You seem to spit out more words than i can eat cashew and yet i haven't found ... substance , in any of your posting, unlike the cashew ... that well is very very nice. /time for some juice. _____________________________________
shelinsin Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:35:00 - [2142] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Dionisius Anger... Perhaps a bit of thinkin before writing is in order youngman. Clearly CCP knows about the bug for a very long time but someone decided to ignore it, until it boiled down to "today", ur either a noobcake, or very naive if you think or believe that this hasn't been abused for as long as it could possibly had, wich is, about 2 to 4 years?! Ur proof. Let me see it. People have admitted it on other forums if all you read is this drama forum then your totally lost. Go to Kugu@@#@#@ and read and weep.
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:38:00 - [2143] Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe Edited by: Callib Gor''Karrithe on 15/12/2008 15:14:13 Originally by: John'eh my post snipped "Microsoft Testing," John'eh... they use Microsoft Testing methods. Instead of a Beta Test phase, they've decided to just start pumping that code right out to us, so WE find the bugs. It's a lot cheaper to run a business when your testers PAY YOU to test. As for the obvious requirement of more SDETS, do you really think this would have helped them in this situation? You don't need an SDETS to uncover a bug like that... if anyone playing the game can easily uncover it, there's no need to streaming through the code, or running batch tests against the environment. This is just a flat out case of UBF (User Brain Failure)... or I guess, more direct to this situation: TBF (Tester Brain Failure). Some of the first things one would figure would be tested when you toss a feature like this (building things in a new way) into a game should be: 1) Can I build something AT ALL? 2) Can I build something without using ALL of the components? 3) Can I build something from NOTHING? 4) Can I build something with only the blueprints? 5) Can I build something with only the materials? I don't see any reason to call up the support of someone with knowledge of how the code works... use case 3 would fail (Well, the answer would be yes, but when the expected answer is "no" then "yes" counts as a failure). I can see what you mean but for cases like this, all you need is testers who don't have rocks for brains. Then again I'm also too hard on teters in general. Where I work, we work with health care information (Ontario's Ministry of Health)... so errors like that are just flat-out unacceptable. We don't run the risk fo people playing a game for free where I work... we just run the risk of doctors making millions [of real dollars] off of exploiting errors in the system. That said, finding an eliminating bugs (especially in areas dealing with money) is a top priority... screwing off on problems as appears to have been done would cause people a huge pile of troubles. What I'm saying is that somebody either did not have the job to do this testing, or did not do the job they where paid to do. I understand your position (I used to work with embedded medical electronics..) and I am happy that another person here understands the reason Testers exist; I just don't think they actually exist at CPP, as I have not seen ANYTHING from CPP that would make me think that there is any sort of check or balance at CPP to make sure the devs did not knowingly add exploits themselves to use until they are publicly found, declared bugs, etc. I'm still waiting for the public statement from the CEO; Anybody who is CEO should know what is going on at his company, and be well informed. As it stands, all I see is ignorance and managerial incompetence. A CEO that knows what he is doing would trust his people, but also have checks in place to verify.. I do not see such checks. All I see are marketing hype, contests to create distractions from current events, and gross incompetantce by most of the people who should have put policies and the rest in place to protect the players who pay for all of this and failed to do so.
KAELA MENSHA	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:39:00 - [2144] when was sisi last mirrored If they back up the database onto sisi they can see who was cheating just by flying around and screen shotting
Tia a'Kanat Caldari Paramilitary Skanks	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:47:00 - [2145] Edited by: Tia a''Kanat on 15/12/2008 16:47:55 Originally by: Dionisius Here, http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/215105 That is not proof, that is a forum post. Originally by: shelinsin People have admitted it on other forums if all you read is this drama forum then your totally lost. That is not proof, that is forum posts. Originally by: shelinsin Go to Kugu@@#@#@ and read and weep. It's my understanding that Mr. "Kugu" is the one doing most of the weeping, because he got banned years ago and yet continues to post stuff he gets from his sekrit haxxors inside CCP building's air vent, or something. Look: There is a fire engine inside my pants full of clowns eating watermelons. It's on a forum, therefore it must be true. Want proof? It's posted right above this line, isn't it?
Aramith	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:48:00 - [2146] Originally by: KAELA MENSHA when was sisi last mirrored If they back up the database onto sisi they can see who was cheating just by flying around and screen shotting no they cant. before the database makes it to sisi, they remove all POS and science and industry jobs from the database. This is because back a few years ago someone decided to use the sisi server to get all the info on POS set up on TQ so that they could easily steam roll those POS without much effort. This allowed them to get ahold of systems by going after the weaker towers before the defenders knew what was going on. Since then the ability to gain intel by logging into the test server was removed.
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:54:00 - [2147] Originally by: Tia a'Kanat Edited by: Tia a''Kanat on 15/12/2008 16:47:55 Originally by: Dionisius Here, http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/215105 That is not proof, that is a forum post. Originally by: shelinsin People have admitted it on other forums if all you read is this drama forum then your totally lost. That is not proof, that is forum posts. Originally by: shelinsin Go to Kugu@@#@#@ and read and weep. It's my understanding that Mr. "Kugu" is the one doing most of the weeping, because he got banned years ago and yet continues to post stuff he gets from his sekrit haxxors inside CCP building's air vent, or something. Look: There is a fire engine inside my pants full of clowns eating watermelons. It's on a forum, therefore it must be true. Want proof? It's posted right above this line, isn't it? Then are you understating that CCP has inventend all this exploit thingie, and banned 70 accounts out of amusement? Or maybe this is the Matrix and none of this is real, in fact we all live in a square world were at the end of the ocean reside monsters and seademons ready to snatch us down into the depths of sailors hell.... /welp! somebody call for SUPERMAN!!!! _____________________________________
KAELA MENSHA	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:04:00 - [2148] Originally by: Aramith Originally by: KAELA MENSHA when was sisi last mirrored If they back up the database onto sisi they can see who was cheating just by flying around and screen shotting no they cant. before the database makes it to sisi, they remove all POS and science and industry jobs from the database. This is because back a few years ago someone decided to use the sisi server to get all the info on POS set up on TQ so that they could easily steam roll those POS without much effort. This allowed them to get ahold of systems by going after the weaker towers before the defenders knew what was going on. Since then the ability to gain intel by logging into the test server was removed. so you think THEY aka CCP couldn't mirror to sisi without removing all those jobs pos's etc
Mr Manufacture	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:12:00 - [2149] Originally by: Aramith Originally by: KAELA MENSHA when was sisi last mirrored If they back up the database onto sisi they can see who was cheating just by flying around and screen shotting no they cant. before the database makes it to sisi, they remove all POS and science and industry jobs from the database. This is because back a few years ago someone decided to use the sisi server to get all the info on POS set up on TQ so that they could easily steam roll those POS without much effort. This allowed them to get ahold of systems by going after the weaker towers before the defenders knew what was going on. Since then the ability to gain intel by logging into the test server was removed. yeah, because its so hard flying around in a cov ops / shuttle / noob ship clicking on the scanner button
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:24:00 - [2150] Originally by: John'eh I have not seen ANYTHING from CPP that would make me think that there is any sort of check or balance at CPP to make sure the devs did not knowingly add exploits themselves to use until they are publicly found, declared bugs, etc. ... All I see are marketing hype, contests to create distractions from current events, and gross incompetantce by most of the people who should have put policies and the rest in place to protect the players who pay for all of this and failed to do so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92mmY_2ub_k (remember to read the description) Tools/developer "exploits" get left in games all the time. They're games after all, not plasma fusion reactors. If the game has a glitch in it, the result isn't over a dozen deaths and a leveled city block (and/or millions of lost RL dollars) - it's a ban-happy staff eager to exert some authority and a few ****ed off gamers. Anyway, whether the bug was reported or not, anyone with half a brain and more than a few mmos worth of online experience knows that exploiting said bug will eventually get your arse tossed in a sling and shot to the bloody moon. When and how the exploit was detected (and whether or not it was the result of poor testing) is ultimately inconsequential - the only thing that matters is whether or not someone manipulated an oversight in the interactive machanics of this game to gain an unfair advantage over others. No mmo company will take anything else into consideration. Not Blizzard. Not Mythic. Not CCP. No one. Sorry to state the obvious here, but no matter how much blustering and tense dialogue there is on these forums, said bluster and dialogue will have no impact on how things evolve from this point. Complaining about how situations like this are handled by companies like CCP is like resisting the Borg; futile at best.

Claire Voyant	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:26:00 - [2151] Originally by: KAELA MENSHA If they back up the database onto sisi they can see who was cheating just by flying around and screen shotting Can we put this one to bed, that you can tell if someone is cheating just by looking at their POS. The argument seems to be that if you have a lot of silos you must be cheating or if you have a lot of silos and some of them are offline you must be cheating. Well, if you are making complex reactions you need a lot of silos. One for each input and at least one for the output. And if you can't empty silos every day, you'll want to chain output silos together to hold the overflow. And if you sometimes take a day or two off every now and then, you might put those excess silos offline so they don't use up fuel, but not unanchor them because that is a huge pain in the rear. Or maybe when I needed the extra silos I would take some EWAR batteries offline to give me the extra CPU I needed for the silos. I ran ten POSs doing reactions for almost a year before I got tired of hauling to and from silos (this was before freighters could service POSs) and decided I could make more money trading with much less work. But I was still able to make money, so I don't think cheating was as widespread as some people think.
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:29:00 - [2152] Originally by: Rooster Fish Sorry to state the obvious here, but no matter how much blustering and tense dialogue there is on these forums, said blustnorant;er and dialogue will have no impact on how things evolve from this point. Complaining about how situations like this are handled by companies like CCP is like resisting the Borg; futile at best. You sure are ignorant; As a company they get worried when we the customers get **ed. If enough ofus get **ed, get organized, etc, they WILL listen.. after all, thats why CSM's exist.
Johncrab Minmatar XBeyond	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:34:00 - [2153] Originally by: CCP Wrangler ...Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. Still no word from CCP. I don't even get disappointed anymore... just plain p issed.
Aramith	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:42:00 - [2154] Edited by: Aramith on 15/12/2008 17:43:08 Originally by: Mr Manufacture ... yeah, because its so hard flying around in a cov ops / shuttle / noob ship clicking on the scanner button i never said it was hard to figure out what was at a POS, just some groups used the test server to gather intel in such a manner as to know exactly what was at which moon without the defending alliance even knowing what was at the tower. It also gave them a chance to get a resonably good idea what type of ammo was load in any pos weapon that might have been there without risking ships on TQ. This caused people to complain and so CCP closed that source of intel. Originally by: KAELA MENSHA so you think THEY aka CCP couldn't mirror to sisi without removing all those jobs pos's etc i never said they could not put a unmodified database backup on the test server, but i highly doubt they would put it on the test server (without making it so that no one but the devs/QA/BH/ISD could log in to it). They may consider using one of their internal test servers for that though since no one but the Devs/QA/BH/ISD can access those servers.
Rata Nrnima	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:46:00 - [2155] Originally by: Jonathan Smythe [snip]This exploit has taken away the ability to compete for many of us.[snip] CCP opted to guarantee our failure, and is charging us to do so. Every CCP Representative on these forums says if you don't like it "then quit" thinks we won't. Hmmm. They only get away with what we allow. The total contempt they hold for us all is evident in lack of response on a thread they established. I'll probably still play, but it won't be with multiple accounts - I'm paring down to one account. I'm going to try another game while I mull this over. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!
davcin Caldari davcin Corp	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:47:00 - [2156] No update yet? What are they doing? Brainwashing the CSM guys?
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:55:00 - [2157] Originally by: Rata Nrnima Originally by: Jonathan Smythe [snip]This exploit has taken away the ability to compete for many of us.[snip] CCP opted to guarantee our failure, and is charging us to do so. Every CCP Representative on these forums says if you don't like it "then quit" thinks we won't. Hmmm. They only get away with what we allow. The total contempt they hold for us all is evident in lack of response on a thread they established. I'll probably still play, but it won't be with multiple accounts - I'm paring down to one account. I'm going to try another game while I mull this over. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! Crap, the emorage quit has begun. Don't fart around. Just quit the game. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:56:00 - [2158] Edited by: Rooster Fish on 15/12/2008 17:57:08 Originally by: John'eh You sure are ignorant; As a company they get worried when we the customers get **ed. If enough ofus get **ed, get organized, etc, they WILL listen.. after all, thats why CSM's exist. I sure am ignorant, huh? I'm sorry - coming from someone who believes CCP or any other mmo company will respond sweepingly to a segment of a game's player base that rants about people being banned for exploiting or about removing a feature from the game, that statement laughable. You either have no previous mmo experience or you have somehow fallen into a rare category of gamer who believes that thier opinion trumps all set precidents.
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:04:00 - [2159] Originally by: Rooster Fish Edited by: Rooster Fish on 15/12/2008 17:57:08 Originally by: John'eh You sure are ignorant; As a company they get worried when we the customers get **ed. If enough ofus get **ed, get organized, etc, they WILL listen.. after all, thats why CSM's exist. I sure am ignorant, huh? I'm sorry - coming from someone who believes CCP or any other mmo company will respond sweepingly to a segment of a game's player base that rants about people being banned for exploiting or about removing a feature from the game, that statement laughable. You either have no previous mmo experience or you have somehow fallen into a rare category of gamer who believes that thier opinion trumps all set precidents. Or, I'm a member of the third group that has a buisness background on top of being a game dev for other games and knows about things like subscrption trends, balace sheets, and ROI.
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:16:00 - [2160] Originally by: John'eh Or, I'm a member of the third group that has a buisness background on top of being a game dev for other games and knows about things like subscrption trends, balace sheets, and ROI. So what does your extensive business experience tell you here? What is it whispering sweetly into your ear? Is it telling you that ranting on a forum about the inadequancies of CCP's response to this exploit and the process by which they have gone about dealing with it will somehow drive droves of subscribers away? Is it confirming to you that, with voices unified, disgruntled posters will somehow sink the EVE venture? I can't tell you how many times I've seen mmo companies screw up phenominally only to see those same people who went postal on them and threaten/promise to hurt them by cancelling thier account either never leave to begin with or return (shortly after their emo rage subsides) to their beloved gameworld when they realize how silly it was to throw away the game they enjoy, the time they've put into it, and the community they are now integrated into on one level or another over an event that will be forgotten within a month. That's not what my CSC, my BA or my US securities licenses taught me - I figured it out all by my lonesome from playing games just like this since 1995.

Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:26:00 - [2161] sesh .. I've read ALL of the posts (my brain hurts) but I see here two camps. Camp A) has a kind of mindset that is secretly "Why didn't I spot this and print my own ISK". Its verbalized in text that kind of reads "I demand blood and will rush the CCP Irovy tower with Torches and Pitch Forks". These people then proceed to cry about how much cleverer they are than anyone else in the Universe with their 20/20 hindsight and not much real World experience working with incredibly complex and large datasets. Camp B) is more of the "Reality check" crowd; its software, bugs happen. Sure some are corkers, but its just a G A M E. These people then proceed to offer their wisdom about how this can occur and even go into detail about their real life experiences and understanding. Camp A people, understandable you are upset, it was a bug that allowed the few to pretty much have a free lunch. Reality check here is that you probably also benefited from the decreased costs and pricing of gear through the trickle down effect. One hole has been 'plugged' and abusers are no more. Camp B people, I respect your input more than any other. Its because of people like you that I play this game. Please keep posting your words of wisdom as some of us actually 'learn' from them. CCP, smacked wrist, now run along and carry on trying to do better than you did the day before :) All camps, remember its just a game. You should be coming here for some 'light' relief mixed in with lots of political drama. The intensity is driving you insane. Chill, relax, go see how awful and shallow other MMOs are compared. To make a mistake is Human. To make a REALLY BIG mistake, takes a computer
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:28:00 - [2162] Originally by: Rooster Fish That's not what my CSC, my BA or my US securities licenses taught me - I figured it out all by my lonesome from playing games just like this since 1995. Ok Mr. Bailout, here is what I'm thinking: 1. As a company they have to keep customers happy enough to stay subscribed, or they have no income. 2. If cusomers get mad enough, they look for alternatives, other games. 3. When peope look for an alternative they dont find anything, so they have to stay and take the crud that happens every year or so (almost like a planned event..) to get the internet spaceship fix they need. 4. That will change soon, and then the free market will decide, if they dont get there act together. 5. If CCP doesnt fix its problems other companies will be happy to fill this space and make there own games like eve; CCP needs to either adapt or die.
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:42:00 - [2163] Originally by: John'eh Originally by: Rooster Fish That's not what my CSC, my BA or my US securities licenses taught me - I figured it out all by my lonesome from playing games just like this since 1995. Ok Mr. Bailout, here is what I'm thinking: 1. As a company they have to keep customers happy enough to stay subscribed, or they have no income. 2. If cusomers get mad enough, they look for alternatives, other games. 3. When peope look for an alternative they dont find anything, so they have to stay and take the crud that happens every year or so (almost like a planned event..) to get the internet spaceship fix they need. 4. That will change soon, and then the free market will decide, if they dont get there act together. 5. If CCP doesnt fix its problems other companies will be happy to fill this space and make there own games like eve; CCP needs to either adapt or die. 1. People who enjoy EVE will stay subscribed. People who are invested enough in the game to complain about what they believe are CCP's mistakes will stay subscribed. Everyone else will bugger off, but they would anyway because this game's training/social/combat/crafting infrastructure doesn't appeal to them. 2. The mmo alternatives are slim. Most recent releases have had poor showings despite the hype surrounding them and the availability of oldschool free-will games (particularly space games) like EVE aren't exactly common. 3, 4 and 5. Responses can be found throughout my replies to 1. and 2. Look, I respect your opinion and all, but this argument has been played out so often it should be a featured section of most modern philosophy courses. And I don't support bailouts. I support "tiered cash injections". Get with the lingo, comrade.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:44:00 - [2164] I hope the CSM raised the following possibilities to CCP: (1) a GM/BH could have covered up any petitions/bug reports on this exploit: (a) for personal in-game gain (b) to help "friends" benefit from it (2) a GM could have been keeping an eye open for petitions about this exploit, to get advance warning of any auditing: (a) to cover his/her own tracks (b) to help "friends" cover their own tracks
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:53:00 - [2165] Originally by: Rooster Fish Originally by: John'eh Originally by: Rooster Fish That's not what my CSC, my BA or my US securities licenses taught me - I figured it out all by my lonesome from playing games just like this since 1995. Ok Mr. Bailout, here is what I'm thinking: 1. As a company they have to keep customers happy enough to stay subscribed, or they have no income. 2. If cusomers get mad enough, they look for alternatives, other games. 3. When peope look for an alternative they dont find anything, so they have to stay and take the crud that happens every year or so (almost like a planned event..) to get the internet spaceship fix they need. 4. That will change soon, and then the free market will decide, if they dont get there act together. 5. If CCP doesnt fix its problems other companies will be happy to fill this space and make there own games like eve; CCP needs to either adapt or die. 1. People who enjoy EVE will stay subscribed. People who are invested enough in the game to complain about what they believe are CCP's mistakes will stay subscribed. Everyone else will bugger off, but they would anyway because this game's training/social/combat/crafting infrastructure doesn't appeal to them. 2. The mmo alternatives are slim. Most recent releases have had poor showings despite the hype surrounding them and the availability of oldschool free-will games (particularly space games) like EVE aren't exactly common. 3, 4 and 5. Responses can be found throughout my replies to 1. and 2. Look, I respect your opinion and all, but this argument has been played out so often it should be a featured section of most modern philosophy courses. And I don't support bailouts. I support "tiered cash injections". Get with the lingo, comrade. Until Open Source Steps in just to motivate CCP. Still waiting for that update...
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:01:00 - [2166] Hmm yes open source games, that'll work, about as well as mainstream adoption of open source operating systems. Anyway this nerd debate is boring, I sure hope the notes come out soon.
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:12:00 - [2167] Originally by: Rooster Fish ...Sorry to state the obvious here, but no matter how much blustering and tense dialogue there is on these forums, said bluster and dialogue will have no impact on how things evolve from this point. Complaining about how situations like this are handled by companies like CCP is like resisting the Borg; futile at best... power overwhelming show me the money Thats what these guys got. Invincible by money. This is biggest thing in computer games that breaks them. I play RTS and FPS before and this happen and guess what! The game die, or you have the game 2.0, which is new from the start. Even loyal players say they are at the end. Not fun to play to die, and never win. And now the people who cheated owns all the money in the game, or have so much they can buy all of the ships and guns to wtfbbq. Just because EvE lives in the past trouble is not sure they will live to the next day of trouble. I think not in a job in Iceland is serious business. For my RL money that I pay is not in the hands of CCP any more. They can think about that. I hear what you say, but I do not care tbh. Kill them all out of the game. Games are about fun, its not fun to only die, and the L33T guys who cheat are hahaha.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:36:00 - [2168] Originally by: Gamer4liff Hmm yes open source games, that'll work, about as well as mainstream adoption of open source operating systems. Anyway this nerd debate is boring, I sure hope the notes come out soon. Considering how much of the market Linux gained during the last 5 years, I wouldn't use this example for improbability... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:48:00 - [2169] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 15/12/2008 19:48:48 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Gamer4liff Hmm yes open source games, that'll work, about as well as mainstream adoption of open source operating systems. Anyway this nerd debate is boring, I sure hope the notes come out soon. Considering how much of the market Linux gained during the last 5 years, I wouldn't use this example for improbability... ehhh it's not that impressive Even still, I do use Linux for programming, just not pro-gaming, if you'll pardon the pun.
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:50:00 - [2170] Originally by: John'eh constructive, intelligent conversation You have a really good point there. I never put much thought into devs having put these exploits in place to affect personal gain from the system. We don't have any opportunities or possibilities for that in our system here, because part of the process of any system updates here is a physical code review; the developer and a bunch of devs unattached to the project sit down and go through the code line by line. The procedure is so drilled into my mind that sometimes I have trouble realizing not all shops work the same way. Most notably CCP must not. I never thought I'd actually see the day when I thought we did a good job of stopping stupidity here... but that day has COME!!! That said in itself, you're pretty well right. I do differ from your assertion, however, that there's no testing. They obviously test the game enough to make sure it doesn't crash... or at least not often. I'm personally still shocked that they wouldn't use simple logic testing to make sure all aspects of this building system worked. In other games, it might not be so essential (it's still needed testing, but might not have the potential to completely skew an entire game), but once you've created a game where the in-game markets depend nearly entirely on player-built items, any code surrounding the construction of market items should be completely sound. Obviously, their testing doesn't go that far... just a quick "big bang" integration test. "Hey look guys! Obviously the new construction system works perfectly! The game loaded!" :: hand to forhead :: I really hope that there is some sort of statement from a CEO or something at least equivalent, but I don't think we're going to see it. As has been pretty much standard for CCP, they try to hush up how big the problems are. Remember the boot.ini shenanigan? Yes, there was some sort of a response, but given the scale of the problem caused, I really don't think anyone can say the response was even close to adequate for the problems caused. To this point, the only response has been the initial announcement, then a CCP post a few pages in essentially announcing that CCP had censored a large portion of the mssages. Really, what kind of response can they give to validate the fact that they let something like this slip through testing? It's not like forgetting to include a couple of textures in a release of the client, or having a function that doesn't work (like the partially finished work allowing people to put POS labs online and available to the public). I think anymore, to me, this has nothing to do with the actual end effects of this exploit... the thing that bugs me the most is that, yet again, CCP prooves that they have so much difficulty properly executing the KEY phase of programming: testing. You and I might differ on to what degree of absence testing exhibits at the CCP shop, but we can definitely agree that whatever varying amount there is doesn't measure up to how much is needed. Sorry for the long-winded post... but like all programmers, I'm an organism which converts caffeine into software... and I'm all loaded up on the base material to secrete software from my fingertips.

Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:52:00 - [2171] Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe Sorry for the long-winded post... but like all programmers, I'm an organism which converts caffeine into software... and I'm all loaded up on the base material to secrete software from my fingertips. Make sure you test to see if you can still output software without the caffeine. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:58:00 - [2172] Edited by: Callib Gor''Karrithe on 15/12/2008 19:58:52 Done and done. I did that last week, and I'm proud to report that there are no bugs in my internal operating system. If I don't put Caffeine in my silo, I can't produce any Software. This must mean I wasn't made by CCP.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:11:00 - [2173] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Maria Martillo The Lack of real information is disturbing..... Please be patient while CCP releases the minutes of the meeting. They will be released today, so don't despair. Today is about to end, better get moving CCP, or you make CSM look bad (Tho I trust that LaVista got told that you would release the minutes of the meeting today.)
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:11:00 - [2174] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 20:12:08 Originally by: Gamer4liff ehhh it's not that impressive Even still, I do use Linux for programming, just not pro-gaming, if you'll pardon the pun. If doubling your market share in 2 years is not impressive I don't know what is... And I suggest you look at the derivative of that curve for further insight. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:15:00 - [2175] Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe Originally by: John'eh constructive, intelligent conversation constructive, intelligent response That I belive is the real problem here; The fact that these sort of things are not a part of dev's policy. I highly doubt they even have unit tests, or daily BVTs y running on check-in triggered intergration builds, but even if they do the lack of oversight over he devs is what create this sort of issue. Testers dont just exist to test code; They exist to police devs and keep them honest. It only stands to reason that the more skilled the testers are, the better they can do that job. I personaly do not trust "testers" who can not read or write code as a result, nor do I trust companies who do not hire skilled coder-testers.
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:34:00 - [2176] Let me relay a tale where another company had a similar issue.... Back in my college days I worked in a pinball Arcade. One of the hottest new games (Tempest? Was long time ago...) had a gimmick where you could continue playing on the same level you lost the last game by putting in more money. People would cash $20 bills and stack the quarters on the machine to reserve it. It just raked in the money. Working till 2AM me and my buddies started noticing wierd things with the machine. For a game that gave one play for a quarter, we would occasionally find large numbers of free replays on it. Like 70+ free games. BTW: this game did not give out free replays. After months of sleuthing this is what we discovered: If you played a game and made it past level 21 (not too hard to do), then ended your game with a score of 11 or 77, then let the credits roll by once the game would give you 99 FREE GAMES. 11 caused the Quarter Counter to rack up 99 games while 77 caused no Quarter Counter movement. Now, our Manager got mad cuz she thought we were using the free tokens to play the game ourselves. Then they thought we were stealing cuz the quarters didn't match the counter. The reality of the situation did not come out till a year later. Seems some programmer designed the codes so that he and his buddies could play for free. The company was forced to replace all the chips in the machines with ones without the bug. Of course, they only did this if you complained or threatened to sue them. Years later, I saw someone playing on the 'Invisible Levels' that were above 99. Since I rarely made it there I asked how he did it. He told me of a futher cheat by ending in 39 which allowed you to start on level 99. We traded cheats. Now, this Starbase Exploit is similar. You had to run 2 successful cycles then shut off the silos. That's buried pretty deep for someone to find if they are bug hunting. CCP, if this was just a bug then I understand how it was not found. But look at the code closely, please.... you just might find something that shouldn't be there.
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:39:00 - [2177] OOhhhh... I just realized that I'm gonna **** off all the old Tempest players! Sorry, guys, I didn't mean to steal quarters out of your pockets by playing for free using this exploit! Well, at least Eve is parralleling Life at this point.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:41:00 - [2178] Originally by: Princess Jodi Let me relay a tale where another company had a similar issue.... Back in my college days I worked in a pinball Arcade. One of the hottest new games (Tempest? Was long time ago...) had a gimmick where you could continue playing on the same level you lost the last game by putting in more money. People would cash $20 bills and stack the quarters on the machine to reserve it. It just raked in the money. Working till 2AM me and my buddies started noticing wierd things with the machine. For a game that gave one play for a quarter, we would occasionally find large numbers of free replays on it. Like 70+ free games. BTW: this game did not give out free replays. After months of sleuthing this is what we discovered: If you played a game and made it past level 21 (not too hard to do), then ended your game with a score of 11 or 77, then let the credits roll by once the game would give you 99 FREE GAMES. 11 caused the Quarter Counter to rack up 99 games while 77 caused no Quarter Counter movement. Now, our Manager got mad cuz she thought we were using the free tokens to play the game ourselves. Then they thought we were stealing cuz the quarters didn't match the counter. The reality of the situation did not come out till a year later. Seems some programmer designed the codes so that he and his buddies could play for free. The company was forced to replace all the chips in the machines with ones without the bug. Of course, they only did this if you complained or threatened to sue them. Years later, I saw someone playing on the 'Invisible Levels' that were above 99. Since I rarely made it there I asked how he did it. He told me of a futher cheat by ending in 39 which allowed you to start on level 99. We traded cheats. Now, this Starbase Exploit is similar. You had to run 2 successful cycles then shut off the silos. That's buried pretty deep for someone to find if they are bug hunting. CCP, if this was just a bug then I understand how it was not found. But look at the code closely, please.... you just might find something that shouldn't be there. That is an awesome story. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:51:00 - [2179] Originally by: Princess Jodi (snip) Now, this Starbase Exploit is similar. You had to run 2 successful cycles then shut off the silos. That's buried pretty deep for someone to find if they are bug hunting. CCP, if this was just a bug then I understand how it was not found. But look at the code closely, please.... you just might find something that shouldn't be there. First I want to say that was a very good story, and thank you for adding to my pop culture. :) Now, about the exploit, I think you are wrong about the procedure. I can't be sure as I only know what I've read, but as far as I understood all you needed to do was to start the proccess and sever the input links. The two cycles were just what it took for them to cancel, not a necessary condition. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:56:00 - [2180] I could be wrong about the exact procedure. Obviously I've never done it. It sounded like you had to turn off the input silos to keep the reaction running but not using materials.

Earthworm Exotic Dancers Club Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:56:00 - [2181] Originally by: Princess Jodi Let me relay a tale where another company had a similar issue.... Back in my college days I worked in a pinball Arcade. One of the hottest new games (Tempest? Was long time ago...) had a gimmick where you could continue playing on the same level you lost the last game by putting in more money. People would cash $20 bills and stack the quarters on the machine to reserve it. It just raked in the money. Working till 2AM me and my buddies started noticing wierd things with the machine. For a game that gave one play for a quarter, we would occasionally find large numbers of free replays on it. Like 70+ free games. BTW: this game did not give out free replays. After months of sleuthing this is what we discovered: If you played a game and made it past level 21 (not too hard to do), then ended your game with a score of 11 or 77, then let the credits roll by once the game would give you 99 FREE GAMES. 11 caused the Quarter Counter to rack up 99 games while 77 caused no Quarter Counter movement. Now, our Manager got mad cuz she thought we were using the free tokens to play the game ourselves. Then they thought we were stealing cuz the quarters didn't match the counter. The reality of the situation did not come out till a year later. Seems some programmer designed the codes so that he and his buddies could play for free. The company was forced to replace all the chips in the machines with ones without the bug. Of course, they only did this if you complained or threatened to sue them. Years later, I saw someone playing on the 'Invisible Levels' that were above 99. Since I rarely made it there I asked how he did it. He told me of a futher cheat by ending in 39 which allowed you to start on level 99. We traded cheats. Now, this Starbase Exploit is similar. You had to run 2 successful cycles then shut off the silos. That's buried pretty deep for someone to find if they are bug hunting. CCP, if this was just a bug then I understand how it was not found. But look at the code closely, please.... you just might find something that shouldn't be there. Agreed, this was a very cool story to read while sitting here at work :) I'm hoping for full transparency here btw regarding the CSM meeting, just more to see how deep this goes versus rabid-emo-market-whine.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:13:00 - [2182] From what the CSM have been saying it seems CCP wont be naming alliances or characters There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:23:00 - [2183] Originally by: RedSplat From what the CSM have been saying it seems CCP wont be naming alliances or characters Why not? CCP was very prompt to name T20 and BoB Alliance, why not apply the same rules here and post the list of player names and attached corps/alliances? One question ... how much money has CCP lost in this? _____________________________________
WUMMELE	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:27:00 - [2184] Infamy,Infamy they have all got it infamy.Yes it is annoying that people may have played for free,and just like a Russian gangster millionaire used their illegal money to pay for whatever trinket that takes their fancy(English Premiership football clubs spring to mind)whilst not putting in any hard work.But at the end of the day it is just a game, being the CEO of an EVE alliance will not win points at an interview to be a member of the board of a bluechip company.It is now 9;30 GMT and no sign of any information even a lazy git like me would put in a few hours overtime to get this out,but no the latest big news is that we are holding a grand holiday spectacular(most probably the winner has already been picked last July).I despair at the apparent lack of interest and commitment( I'm not staying on to do overtime Lars I,ve done my eight hours).Well it is now time for my cocoa and mashed bannana.Fly safe fellow drones and keep paying your subscriptions Iceland needs the money,they owe my local coucil 20million.
Technovar Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:27:00 - [2185] Originally by: John'eh In Short: I want software developers to be hired to Software Quality Assurance positions with the sole role, goal and intention of finding, hunting, auditing, and if needed terminating (and podding) of any dev who cheats by either adding code like this, or attempting to do so. Buh-whah? How exactly do you intend to structure this pay and position-wise? Developers willing to work primarily in QA are rare, and those willing to work in QA for QA-level wages are nonexistent, or at the least a time-limited set. Note the difference in pay scale and intangibles between (to use the Microsoft acronyms, though the rest of the world is pretty similar) an SDE and an SDE/T . When the good test-focused developer realizes that they can quickly move to a more respected position at a sizable pay increase, what do you think happens?
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:41:00 - [2186] Minutes of the CSM meeting are published -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:01:00 - [2187] I'm happy with that they're looking back and banning those directly responsible. Its not an exact science but the intention is there. All the exploiter supporting alts in here will be sweating :) /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:06:00 - [2188] Originally by: Technovar Originally by: John'eh In Short: I want software developers to be hired to Software Quality Assurance positions with the sole role, goal and intention of finding, hunting, auditing, and if needed terminating (and podding) of any dev who cheats by either adding code like this, or attempting to do so. Buh-whah? How exactly do you intend to structure this pay and position-wise? Developers willing to work primarily in QA are rare, and those willing to work in QA for QA-level wages are nonexistent, or at the least a time-limited set. Note the difference in pay scale and intangibles between (to use the Microsoft acronyms, though the rest of the world is pretty similar) an SDE and an SDE/T . When the good test-focused developer realizes that they can quickly move to a more respected position at a sizable pay increase, what do you think happens? Woah there, son... what kind of drugs have you been smoking? Have you ever even worked in the IT Industry? This is actually the way things are done. Most notably up here in the icy arctic of Canada. These positions are known as "System Testers." Where the first requirement is an innate understanding of the code you're testing. Tell you what, try working in the IT field for a few years in a REAL shop, in stead of some smoke-and-mirrors shop like you've been working in. Some developers prefer to find the holes in other peoples' code rather than write their own code. Seeing as how testing is this surprisingly integral part of the development process, you actually do get paid as much as if you were an actual developer. My shop in point, where developers of ALL KINDS (including testers) are qualified by one of six "Systems Officer" titles, ranging from one through six inclusively. This is actually the way shops run. Here's a quick breakdown of the percentage of time (and importance) placed on each portion of the Systems Development Lifecycle (SDLC): 10% - Analysis and Requirements Gathering (this role is often played by a programmer hired under the title of an "Analyst" and is notably a position involving NO CODE, but instead talking between the client and the Development Team... it notably pays a salary equivalent to that of developers) 30% - Design -> this is the point in the process where some, but not much, code is used... for the most part, you're dealing with what's known as "pseudocode" which is the human-readable equivalent of every coding language... it's generic and describes program LOGIC (the stuff CCP doesn't like to test) 10% - Coding <- gosh... look at that... the job of a programmer revolves VERY LITTLE around writing actual code 40% - Testing <- nearly half of the SDLC of any PROPERLY WRITTEN PROGRAM is centered around this "testing" stuff that CCP still needs to learn about 10% - Systems Upkeep, updating, etc. (although, in the case of a system like EVE, "Updating" the system should result in a new iteration of the SDLC So on whatever messed up planet you live in, they need to discover how programmers work... or more aptly: a programmer is what you are not. Please don't try to masquerade as someone you're not. It will be pointed out. More to the point, testing is actually the backbone of a properly designed application. Whatever messed up shop you're in that pays testers less than developers needs to get their head on straight and start paying their employees what they're worth. It's either that, or take one look at the IT industry and then leave. There are enough ***ty players of the game like CCP and Microslop... we actually don't* have room for more.
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:10:00 - [2189] Originally by: Valan Its not an exact science but the intention is there. QFT. Originally by: "Minutes" EyjoG noted that the reason it wasnÆt detected sooner was that the exploit wasnÆt started on a grand scale until this year, so the effect on the economy came gradually. From a Quality AssuranceÆs perspective, they test for potential exploits regularly that are perceived as risks both on Tranquility and before they release new features or functionality, but in a universe as complex as EVE, itÆs not possible to test for all potential exploits and in this particular situation they didnÆt discover the issue earlier. Quality Assurance has been working for the last few days to reproduce and assist in solving the exploit. Be as cynical about it as you want, and claim that if "I was testing the code I would have found it", but this explanation is actually quite believable. I mean, Mythic left a dev tool in DAoC that let you fly invis at 10x run speed to anywhere in the game on a live server that was discovered by one guy. This bug, although item and economy-related, is not nearly as locally disruptive or blatantly obvious.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:11:00 - [2190] Again CCP talks a lot and says almost nothing. The only useful informations in that whole meeting are: - The exploit was possible at least from Feb 2007; - The advanced materials were used initially for productionand exchange and were gradually introduced in the market since the start of this year. - CCP plans to do nothing about those who received goods from the cheaters, neither the alliances benefitted from it... So we potentially have alliances out there who could and probably did give T2 ships for free to their members who will enjoy the fruits of their exploits to the fullest from now on at the cost of a few banned accounts. I wouldn't be surprised if even the players who owned those accounts have new accounts now, bought and donated by their buddies. Conclusion: in the end exploiting is the better strategy as there are no real consequences. Keep it in mind next time you find a game breaking bug. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:24:00 - [2191] I'm telling ya... CCP is missing a money making opportunity here... Put all those old backups onto another Server where people can pay to fly around in the Good Old Days. Reset it every week back to where it was. Call it Time Traveler or Eve Historian or Rumininating Before the Memory Fades or sumptin'. Make it a new game and send in the PsychoHistorians.
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:27:00 - [2192] Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe Originally by: Technovar Originally by: John'eh In Short: I want software developers to be hired to Software Quality Assurance positions with the sole role, goal and intention of finding, hunting, auditing, and if needed terminating (and podding) of any dev who cheats by either adding code like this, or attempting to do so. Buh-whah? How exactly do you intend to structure this pay and position-wise? Developers willing to work primarily in QA are rare, and those willing to work in QA for QA-level wages are nonexistent, or at the least a time-limited set. Note the difference in pay scale and intangibles between (to use the Microsoft acronyms, though the rest of the world is pretty similar) an SDE and an SDE/T . When the good test-focused developer realizes that they can quickly move to a more respected position at a sizable pay increase, what do you think happens? Woah there, son... what kind of drugs have you been smoking? Have you ever even worked in the IT Industry? This is actually the way things are done. Most notably up here in the icy arctic of Canada. These positions are known as "System Testers." Where the first requirement is an innate understanding of the code you're testing. Tell you what, try working in the IT field for a few years in a REAL shop, in stead of some smoke-and-mirrors shop like you've been working in. Some developers prefer to find the holes in other peoples' code rather than write their own code. Seeing as how testing is this surprisingly integral part of the development process, you actually do get paid as much as if you were an actual developer. My shop in point, where developers of ALL KINDS (including testers) are qualified by one of six "Systems Officer" titles, ranging from one through six inclusively. This is actually the way shops run. Here's a quick breakdown of the percentage of time (and importance) placed on each portion of the Systems Development Lifecycle (SDLC): 10% - Analysis and Requirements Gathering (this role is often played by a programmer hired under the title of an "Analyst" and is notably a position involving NO CODE, but instead talking between the client and the Development Team... it notably pays a salary equivalent to that of developers) 30% - Design -> this is the point in the process where some, but not much, code is used... for the most part, you're dealing with what's known as "pseudocode" which is the human-readable equivalent of every coding language... it's generic and describes program LOGIC (the stuff CCP doesn't like to test) 10% - Coding <- gosh... look at that... the job of a programmer revolves VERY LITTLE around writing actual code 40% - Testing <- nearly half of the SDLC of any PROPERLY WRITTEN PROGRAM is centered around this "testing" stuff that CCP still needs to learn about 10% - Systems Upkeep, updating, etc. (although, in the case of a system like EVE, "Updating" the system should result in a new iteration of the SDLC So on whatever messed up planet you live in, they need to discover how programmers work... or more aptly: a programmer is what you are not. Please don't try to masquerade as someone you're not. It will be pointed out. More to the point, testing is actually the backbone of a properly designed application. Whatever messed up shop you're in that pays testers less than developers needs to get their head on straight and start paying their employees what they're worth. It's either that, or take one look at the IT industry and then leave. There are enough ***ty players of the game like CCP and Microslop... we actually don't* have room for more. Well said. So it looks like based on the minutes that CCP does not care, yet again. Damn it, its this kind of thing that may be just what somebody needs to get them off their arse and go build their own internet spaceship. I'm surpsrised CCP is willing to risk that.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:32:00 - [2193] Originally by: John'eh So it looks like based on the minutes that CCP does not care, yet again. Damn it, its this kind of thing that may be just what somebody needs to get them off their arse and go build their own internet spaceship. I'm surpsrised CCP is willing to risk that. I entrust this task to you, good sir. Please begin post haste and best these dunces with your programming might. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:42:00 - [2194] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Again CCP talks a lot and says almost nothing. - CCP plans to do nothing about those who received goods from the cheaters, neither the alliances benefitted from it... exploiting is the better strategy as there are no real consequences. Keep it in mind next time you find a game breaking bug. How would you justify handing out a ban to someone for buying t2 items produced via exploit even though there is no way to verify whether they knowingly or unknowingly bought these goods? Is there any reasonable way to go about sorting any of the bull** from the truth without taking down hundreds of innocent players and eating up months of work hours or can we just move on? Oh no wait, it's better to whine that no one cares even though perhaps less than 20% of the people posting here were probably negatively affected by this in any way, shape or form. What line from Office Space do those Minutes remind me of? "THIS IS NOT A MUNDANE DETAIL, MICHAEL!"** repackaged as a calm, indifferent summary statement. And incidentally, I'm not disagreeing with anyone who is blaming CCP for the oversight - I'm just making it clear that there are a lot of us who aren't the least bit surprised by this or the lack of realistic reprisal solutions. To those who really were negatively affected by this, your choice is simple - suck it up and move on in the new economy, or wind down operations here and sharpen your axe for some fantasy mmo or a 1P diversion until something better comes along.
Smartislarti HEART OF GOLD	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:53:00 - [2195] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Again CCP talks a lot and says almost nothing. The only useful informations in that whole meeting are: - The exploit was possible at least from Feb 2007; - The advanced materials were used initially for productionand exchange and were gradually introduced in the market since the start of this year. - CCP plans to do nothing about those who received goods from the cheaters, neither the alliances benefitted from it... So we potentially have alliances out there who could and probably did give T2 ships for free to their members who will enjoy the fruits of their exploits to the fullest from now on at the cost of a few banned accounts. I wouldn't be surprised if even the players who owned those accounts have new accounts now, bought and donated by their buddies. Conclusion: in the end exploiting is the better strategy as there are no real consequences. Keep it in mind next time you find a game breaking bug. Once again it shows how similar in game exploits and rl cheating works. Todays news came up with the headline regarding Siemens Corporation that got imposed some 800 Bil Dollar fine for having payed bribes to it's customers employees. Taking in account that they got 50 times the amount of $ in incoming orders out of such deals there is just 2 arguments remaining: 1. Cheating pays out. 2. Cheating pays out. "Since we have to speak well of the dead, let's knock them while they're alive." -- John Sloan
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:55:00 - [2196] Originally by: Rooster Fish How would you justify handing out a ban to someone for buying t2 items produced via exploit even though there is no way to verify whether they knowingly or unknowingly bought these goods? Is there any reasonable way to go about sorting any of the bull** from the truth without taking down hundreds of innocent players and eating up months of work hours or can we just move on? Oh no wait, it's better to whine that no one cares even though perhaps less than 20% of the people posting here were probably negatively affected by this in any way, shape or form. What line from Office Space do those Minutes remind me of? "THIS IS NOT A MUNDANE DETAIL, MICHAEL!"** repackaged as a calm, indifferent summary statement. And incidentally, I'm not disagreeing with anyone who is blaming CCP for the oversight - I'm just making it clear that there are a lot of us who aren't the least bit surprised by this or the lack of realistic reprisal solutions. To those who really were negatively affected by this, your choice is simple - suck it up and move on in the new economy, or wind down operations here and sharpen your axe for some fantasy mmo or a 1P diversion until something better comes along. I don't justify banning of anybody. I do not even think it would be crucial to ban the direct cheaters to be honest. Banning is of little consequence here. I justify the elimination of all the fruits of the exploit within the possibilities, meaning: - All the ISK gained no matter where it ended - All the assets gained no matter where they ended - Fine the correspondent ISK from those who gained assets financed by the exploit if those assets no longer exist (where destroyed) - Disband the alliances that directly benefitted from the exploits, but leave the players alone, save for the measures above. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Doonoo Boonoo	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:00:00 - [2197] Originally by: John'eh So it looks like based on the minutes that CCP does not care, yet again. Damn it, its this kind of thing that may be just what somebody needs to get them off their arse and go build their own internet spaceship. I'm surpsrised CCP is willing to risk that. No. It looks like CCP have banned those responsible and, after CCP have looked through older data, there could be more bans issued. Investigations are still ongoing and they will update us in the future.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:03:00 - [2198] Originally by: Etho Demerzel I don't justify banning of anybody. I do not even think it would be crucial to ban the direct cheaters to be honest. Banning is of little consequence here. I justify the elimination of all the fruits of the exploit within the possibilities, meaning: - All the ISK gained no matter where it ended - All the assets gained no matter where they ended - Fine the correspondent ISK from those who gained assets financed by the exploit if those assets no longer exist (where destroyed) - Disband the alliances that directly benefitted from the exploits, but leave the players alone, save for the measures above. What you are proposing is both impossible and bat**** insane crazy. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:06:00 - [2199] Originally by: Karille What you are proposing is both impossible and bat**** insane crazy. No, it is not. It is very feasible and relativelly simple. Not 100% safeproof, given, there will always be assets and ISK buried deep enough to reamin undetected by the mining algorithms, but the percentage will be very low. The alternative is to do nothing and leave MOST of those assets untouched distorting the game even further, forever... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:16:00 - [2200] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 15/12/2008 23:16:46 1) EyjoG was able to confirm exploits starting in March 2008, with the bulk of it becoming operational in May/June 2008. Ok.... "bulk" what do you mean by "bulk" - you mean instead of one or two select alliances this has become a common knowledge? What is "bulk"? 2) Diagoras confirmed the exploit as being possible (code wise) from at least February 2007... Diagoras explained that February 2007 was the earliest date they had that they are able to check the code for the exploit that hadnft been changed in a way that would affect this, part of the investigation will be to confirm how long it has been possible to use this exploit. Possible? Well, Ok, Possible = available, for at least a year. Knowing EVE players, it was exploited for at least this time, maybe by a "select few" people. I think that the "weirdness" with the market was happening for at least 2 years. And I doubt that February 2007 is the firm date.... oh, and it contradicts #1. 3) EyjoG noted that the reason it wasnft detected sooner was that the exploit wasnft started on a grand scale until this year, so the effect on the economy came gradually... Same as in #1, what is this "grand scale" means? Instead of 1, or 2, or 3 Alliances, we got 5 or 6? 4) EyjoG re-iterated that to CCP it looks like the bug was available for a lot longer than it was used on a grand scale by players... Right, same "grand scale" again... excellent! This tells us everything! 5) EyjoG: The impact on the economy is significant; overall they are expecting this generated a few trillion isk. As a comparison, the daily trade on average in EVE through the market for all items is 3 trillion isk. So itfs significant, but not catastrophic. Uhum, I understand, now, 3 Trillion ISK, thats actually this: 3,000,000,000,000 (hat's 12 Zeroes at the end), or *three thousand billions.... ( a rough estimate of recent* activity only) let that number sink in for a second - where did it go? I mean it should be easy to track 10 Billion, CCP does it all the time with he ISK sellers/buyers. So where the hell did three thousand billions went? Whose titans it went to build? Which T2 BPOs did it go to buy? What Wars did it go win? What cars and condo payments did it go to finance? Anyway, just some thoughts. As usual we do not have answers, not real ones any way. This cancer has spread thruought many alliances in 0.0 I am sure of it. Not with the numbers we are talking about here, and there is no way anyone can tell me that Alliance leaders can plead ignorance, when you have hundreds of billions of unexplained ISK in-fluxing your coffers, and you do not ask questions, well that is a conspiracy to me. And I am not referring to CCP/Dev conspiracy, I am talking about conspiracy in 'legal' terms: "an agreement... to break the law at some time in the future, and, in some cases, with at least one overt act in furtherance of that agreement." The people and alliances in question have all participated in conspiracy, if not with one another, than entities within the alliance and corporations have exploited the ISK faucet and have covered up its existence, even if independently from each one's major affiliation. I would give CCP a month to dig more stuff up, but so far, everything they gave is pretty unpromising. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:23:00 - [2201] Originally by: Jinx Barker (snip) Uhum, I understand, now, 3 Trillion ISK, thats actually this: 3,000,000,000,000 (hat's 12 Zeroes at the end), or *three thousand billions.... ( a rough estimate of recent* activity only) let that number sink in for a second - where did it go? I mean it should be easy to track 10 Billion, CCP does it all the time with he ISK sellers/buyers. Lets not forget that 3 trillions is just the money involved in direct market transactions in the last months. That does not account for smaller market transactions in a large period of time before, does not account for T2 manufactured products sold, does not acount for T2 itens freely given to people or given in direct exchange for other goods. More likely than not 3 trillion, big a figure as it may be, is just the tip of the iceberg. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:32:00 - [2202] Originally by: Etho Demerzel ..stuff.. Oh, I am sure that 3 Trillion ISK is just a small part of what really happened. With what has been happening, and with the way things been going, this is much, much bigger problem that involves allot more people, alliances, and I am sure a good chunk of real life cash. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Dismus Gallente Universal Star	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:44:00 - [2203] Edited by: Dismus on 15/12/2008 23:45:35 CCP not caring?? No WAY!! Originally by: Draeca Domi isn't ugly, it actually looks quite symphatic. I mean, a crossbreed of a whale and a potato.. Now how cute is that?
Ho HsienKo CBC Interstellar	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:45:00 - [2204] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=878235 you all should have listened to me THREE MONTHS AGO and you would all be rich instead of poor. Don't say I never did anything for you
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.15 23:54:00 - [2205] Originally by: John'eh Quote: OUCH!! Well said. So it looks like based on the minutes that CCP does not care, yet again. Damn it, its this kind of thing that may be just what somebody needs to get them off their arse and go build their own internet spaceship. I'm surpsrised CCP is willing to risk that. It doesn't really shock me... when you think about it, the kind of organisational requirements to bring a company up to the expected bar of IT standards, I guess it's understandable that they'd try to avoid such work. It's pathetic and no excuse... but I mean... I am kind of lazy, so I can understand the lack of drive to fix the mechanisms of terrible problems. I'm not too shocked that CCP is willing to risk that. They actually let things slide for so long that it already happened. I've taken the courtesy of sending you an EVE-mail to identify said product, just for entertainment sake. Knowing the forum rules, I'm not going to advertise said product here, lest the forum mods censor it. So I mean... having already let it slip for that far, what do they still have to lose? Sure, the product I'm talking about isn't an exact clone, and might lack the whole "One world, one server" approach... but a lot of details are still foggy.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.16 00:36:00 - [2206] Originally by: Ho HsienKo http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=878235 you all should have listened to me THREE MONTHS AGO and you would all be rich instead of poor. Don't say I never did anything for you Reaching a true conclusion based in the wrong arguments is something that can happen and do happen to people quite often. Even a broken watch is right twice per day. If not for the exploit your guesses would be wrong, as Bob didn't come even close to deliver what they promised and had their asses kicked from the North. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.16 00:51:00 - [2207] Originally by: Jinx Barker Uhum, I understand, now, 3 Trillion ISK, thats actually this: 3,000,000,000,000 (hat's 12 Zeroes at the end), or *three thousand billions.... ( a rough estimate of recent* activity only) let that number sink in for a second - where did it go? I mean it should be easy to track 10 Billion, CCP does it all the time with he ISK sellers/buyers. Yes, dwell on the number of zeroes long enough and it will totally escape your recollection that the next sentence was putting the number into perspective: 3 Trillion ISK is the daily monetary velocity of the EVE economy. So since March, an extra amount has been injected into the EVE economy equivalent to one day's trade. It's easy to point at 3 Trillion and say, "OMG! That's a huge amount of ISK!" It's another thing entirely to put it into perspective. There is about 7 Billion ISK per day, per market region being injected into the economy by miners in the form of Tritanium. I expect a larger number being injected in raw ISK being generated by mission runners. I do not expect that the EVE economy will die. EVE was fine in February. As for the "grand scale", I expect that the exploit has been going for longer than a year. In that time, it's probably been done on the quiet by people who know the dangers of flooding a market with exploited goods. Keep it quiet, your exploit brings you a steady trickle of free ISK. Suddenly some group got greedy, they wanted all the money, right now! So they go and set up dozens of stations, producing mountains of the materials that people are after, and flooding the market. At this point, the number of people involved must have (by necessity) grown well outside the number of people who are prepared to exploit the game mechanics for free ISK. One or a dozen tipoffs, a GM or two that were aware something was seriously wrong with the T2 economy, and snap, the whole gig is busted. The EVE economy will recover in a matter of months. I expect prices of T2 will be significantly higher (in the order of 10%-20%) than February prices, since I believe that the bug was being exploited for a year or so - just not to the scale it has been since March. There's no need for hue and cry. There is a need to investigate all bug reports for the last three years to see if the POS reaction exploit was known about before 2007. There is a need to see if this is another T20 problem - were CCP staff involved in this exploit? The CSM can help out by asking the right questions. I trust them to ask, and I trust CCP to find the answers. Now, let's get back to enjoying the game, shall we?
Ho HsienKo CBC Interstellar	Posted - 2008.12.16 00:56:00 - [2208] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Bob didn't come even close to deliver what they promised and had their asses kicked from the North. These arn't the droids you are looking for..... move along! ROFLMAO And guess what, you can now make the rarest moon minerals by dumping 8 times the ammount of slightly not "The Best" and "most rare" minerals and only "Six times the time" it would othewise take!!! hmmm..... that should take the edge off... Don't ya think?
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2008.12.16 01:16:00 - [2209] I think everyone who posted that they will quit Eve over this should do so as soon as possible. It'll be a better galaxy. Bye now. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.16 01:28:00 - [2210] Originally by: Ho HsienKo These arn't the droids you are looking for..... move along! ROFLMAO And guess what, you can now make the rarest moon minerals by dumping 8 times the ammount of slightly not "The Best" and "most rare" minerals and only "Six times the time" it would othewise take!!! hmmm..... that should take the edge off... Don't ya think? The fact that there is an alternative method to make dysprosium and prometium, ineficient as it may be, can't be accounted for their shortage. At most the method will be useless and thus irrelevant. So none of your previsions had anything to do with reality. Unless you were aware of the exploit and profited from it knownly you just had the lucky of betting in the right horse for the wrong motives. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Ho HsienKo CBC Interstellar	Posted - 2008.12.16 01:50:00 - [2211] Originally by: Etho Demerzel you just had the luck of betting in the right horse for the wrong motives. Ok, now I know for sure your tinfoil hat is NOWHERE near as good as mine, or you are a total SHEEP and/or Muppet. Lets just leave it at that shall we? Mmmmmmmmm.... K?
John'eh	Posted - 2008.12.16 01:51:00 - [2212] Originally by: Karille Originally by: John'eh So it looks like based on the minutes that CCP does not care, yet again. Damn it, its this kind of thing that may be just what somebody needs to get them off their arse and go build their own internet spaceship. I'm surpsrised CCP is willing to risk that. I entrust this task to you, good sir. Please begin post haste and best these dunces with your programming might. Not what I was alluding to, but something to think about perhaps. After all, how hard could it truly be for one man to duplicate the effort of an international team of 300 developers, graphic artists, and middle managers without the same finical resources or years of past development already put into the product? CCP knows this, so unless a company like, oh, I dont know, Microsoft? Ubisoft? Maybe Blizzard? gets involved they wont worry.. but just you wait, once they do.. they will be docked at the station like scared care bears.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.16 01:54:00 - [2213] Originally by: Ho HsienKo Originally by: Etho Demerzel you just had the luck of betting in the right horse for the wrong motives. Ok, now I know for sure your tinfoil hat is NOWHERE near as good as mine, or you are a total SHEEP and/or Muppet. Lets just leave it at that shall we? Mmmmmmmmm.... K? If you were remotely understandable I would reply to this. Unfortunatly that does not seem to be the case ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.16 03:29:00 - [2214] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 16/12/2008 03:30:07 Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri I think everyone who posted that they will quit Eve over this should do so as soon as possible. It'll be a better galaxy. Bye now. I actually read the entire thread - yes, I know, crazy, but I was at work, and well, what better time than that. Anyway, I think I saw 2 (two) people who threatened to quit because of this exploit, out of, what 2,000 who posted? So, yes, I agree with you, if they want to quit, they should. Most people demand justice, or rather accountability of sorts from CCP regarding this issue. And some tried to deflect it as "not a big deal." And, yes, bye now. (I know I fell for a troll, but I promise not to feed him again, he was very cute.) ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.12.16 03:31:00 - [2215] I wish I could be bothered reading this thread. But I'm busy doing anything else. Still, it's bound to contain some good stuff. Only 121 more pages to catch up to the other epic.
Antonius Hari BoB Enterprises Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2008.12.16 04:21:00 - [2216] Edited by: Antonius Hari on 16/12/2008 04:21:01 I saw someone post above 3000 billion in the scheme of 1 day of total eve market is not much. But if you do a calculation of the Real value lost, cause i would hazard to guess much of this goes into GTC. If all of it was spent on GTC and this is speculating a value of 3000 billion only. That equates to a revenue of 19000 US dollars jsut vanished. Now if i was the owner of CCP, i would be concerned about a 19000 US dollar of ill gotten funds. As it stands CCP has it in their interest to follow this up well, because basically the exploiters have stolen a total of what could be 20k US dollars plus worth from CCP. I would also hazard to say, if it is proven some has disappeared into GTC then you would say they have rights to follow legal action outside the game. I have always had an issue with GTC for ISK, and it only adds to the desire for those that would, exploit where they can for isk. At the end of the day to many things attract illgotten welath and the ties to advance using ISK and real dollars within the structure of the game , makes ppl more prown to attempt to cheat this game. At the end of the day, i love the game and wont be leaving over any of this rubbish, but CCP left themselves open with RMT trading for Ingame value, and this moon exploit is just an advanced version of those macro miners, but far greater value. Ingame issues related to this exploit are obvoiusly very far reaching, and we are most likely already to far influenced by its affects to see any real change in the near future, as wars will have to happen to destroy the illgotten capital assests, and would take some major campaigns to wittle those assests down. I wonder how much of our corps fights were againsnt a well supported foe with this funding, i look forward to our future now as we push forward knowing, possibly some of our foes have been bought onto a level playing field once again.
PROTOCOL	Posted - 2008.12.16 06:40:00 - [2217] Edited by: PROTOCOL on 16/12/2008 06:40:56 Originally by: Antonius Hari Edited by: Antonius Hari on 16/12/2008 04:21:01 I saw someone post above 3000 billion in the scheme of 1 day of total eve market is not much. But if you do a calculation of the Real value lost, cause i would hazard to guess much of this goes into GTC. If all of it was spent on GTC and this is speculating a value of 3000 billion only. That equates to a revenue of 19000 US dollars jsut vanished. Now if i was the owner of CCP, i would be concerned about a 19000 US dollar of ill gotten funds. As it stands CCP has it in their interest to follow this up well, because basically the exploiters have stolen a total of what could be 20k US dollars plus worth from CCP. I would also hazard to say, if it is proven some has disappeared into GTC then you would say they have rights to follow legal action outside the game. I have always had an issue with GTC for ISK, and it only adds to the desire for those that would, exploit where they can for isk. At the end of the day to many things attract illgotten welath and the ties to advance using ISK and real dollars within the structure of the game , makes ppl more prown to attempt to cheat this game. At the end of the day, i love the game and wont be leaving over any of this rubbish, but CCP left themselves open with RMT trading for Ingame value, and this moon exploit is just an advanced version of those macro miners, but far greater value. Ingame issues related to this exploit are obvoiusly very far reaching, and we are most likely already to far influenced by its affects to see any real change in the near future, as wars will have to happen to destroy the illgotten capital assests, and would take some major campaigns to wittle those assests down. I wonder how much of our corps fights were againsnt a well supported foe with this funding, i look forward to our future now as we push forward knowing, possibly some of our foes have been bought onto a level playing field once again. You do realize that GTC's come from ccp right, if exploiter A buys a GTC from player B, CCP still gets the money as the GTC is bought from some reseller who bought from ccp. Buy a bullet and rent a gun, you are a complete failtard.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.16 07:18:00 - [2218] Originally by: PROTOCOL You do realize that GTC's come from ccp right, if exploiter A buys a GTC from player B, CCP still gets the money as the GTC is bought from some reseller who bought from ccp. Buy a bullet and rent a gun, you are a complete failtard. I think the one who needs that gun is you, my friend. He used GTCs to evaluate the 3 billion ISK into real world exchange. Nobody in his right mind would try to sell 3 bil ISK in GTCs. It is far more likely that at least some of the exploiters sold directly the ISK for money on ebay and other places... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Antonius Hari BoB Enterprises Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2008.12.16 07:22:00 - [2219] Edited by: Antonius Hari on 16/12/2008 07:24:06 I understand exactly CCP get the money from GTC. THough thats a possible 19000 dollars illgotten.. And CCP have as a company of integrity to monitor their incomings. If i stole 1 product from you, sold it, then bought another of your products, how would you feel about that. THat is all i am wanting people to think about. EDIT: the poster above as cottened onto what i was saying, and yes, GTC was an example of many methods of our wonderful game being exploited by this POS bug..
Ricardus Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.16 08:28:00 - [2220] Edited by: Ricardus on 16/12/2008 08:30:38 Someone was adamant that "There was no Tech 2 in 2004" (or so, i'm quoting from memory)... saddly it's wrong. In 2003/2004 was when CCP started their fall on credibility when the Art Dev T0rtifrans (or T0rfitrans or T0rtelini, i don't care... T0rtisomething) decided to spawn THE FIRST T5 ITEM, an Mining Laser that was shortly replaced by something waaaaaay less game unbalancing... THE ONLY MINER II BPO!!! (What could go wrong in replacing ONE item that could mine 350 ore per cicle while others could only 100ish, with ONE item that could create UNLIMITED items that could mine 200 ore per cicle and that could be sold for 16milions EACH and that the prime mining ship was the 8 turret Appocalypse BS??) Back then CCP also started their "sweep under the rug" policy by ignoring the complaints of the customers, while the "Licence to Print Money" was being put to 24/7 non-stop mass production. Many ppl felt that the company was "too green" to be able to properly regulate and keep in-game balance (this was their 1st MMO afteral... and while other MMOs had devs that fought to keep their games fairly balanced, in here they worked the OPPOSITE way) and also felt that they didn't gave a damn about customer complaints. I'm one of those that quit EVE due that episode (in 2004 to be more exact) and managed to stay away from it for until late of 2008 (returning only because the Age of Conan fiasco had some guildees heading to EVE and i followed). I missed the T20 scandal but from what i've read it was very similar... Devs with lack of balance foresight handling monopolies to specific ppl and totaly disregarding the customer complaints. Now this "Pos-Gate" and again i saw the same old tactics of "rug-it! rug-it"... aaaah it's good to be back!!! I feel like i never left! Oh well... guess i'll never return to the old Stain Aliance systems were i spent so much time and still have loot collecting 4 years of dust... PS: I don't give a damn about typos, grammar, sentencing and all that, mostly because English is not my native language and i can write (as poorly) in other 3 languages... besides, i doubth many "spelling police" would write as well in my native language (Portuguese). Edit: Too many silly emotes :p

Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.16 08:55:00 - [2221] Originally by: Ricardus In 2003/2004 was when CCP started their fall on credibility when the Art Dev T0rtifrans (or T0rfitrans or T0rtelini, i don't care... T0rtisomething) decided to spawn THE FIRST T5 ITEM, an Mining Laser that was shortly replaced by something waaaaaay less game unbalancing... THE ONLY MINER II BPO!!! You seem to forget that people get lucky and discover extremely nice things in real life too. Not everyone gets an equal chance. I like that the game sometimes reflects this, whether it was intentional or not. I'm not all broken up about this or any other incident in the past. In fact i think they're all highly amusing. On top of that, the handling of this incident is pretty damn good. People always say "OMG COVERUP", but here you are getting information and talking about it. They're not banning people for badmouthing CCP, nor are they attempting to hide any of the contrary information that people are posting. They're making a reasonable effort to give you the information that you deserve and keeping their mouths shut about names and alliances, as they should. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
KAELA MENSHA	Posted - 2008.12.16 10:26:00 - [2222] I actually understand now why so many people, where pushing for GTC's to be bought ingame. Proberly the worst thing ccp did might look through old posts, see who wanted them
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.16 11:02:00 - [2223] Originally by: Glengrant But you say "saying" doesn't make that true. Care to provide any evidence? No - I'm not talking about rumors, assumptions and conjectures - I do mean some sort of credible evidence. Only transparency would provide the reverse. So far CCP haven't provided any evidence themselves (Although to be fair, it would be difficult to know how this could be achieved) - we only have the word of a company that has a vested interest in the perception of the outcome and has been caught in lies previously. It cuts both ways.
Mussaschi	Posted - 2008.12.16 14:10:00 - [2224] Edited by: Mussaschi on 16/12/2008 14:10:40 Ok, let's destile the latest info from the CCP meeting: 1) The exploit has been active for "at least" 4 month. Nobody stated that it could not be longer, but only that they havn't been able to check, since they need to load old database dumps (which is extremly time consuming) 2) At least the ferogel market was 30% filled with exploid material. The average for this market in jita was 2M pieces per day. That means jita alone the exploiters made 600k*20k =12000M per day with ferogel. So 100 days brought up 1 Trillion in ferogel in jita alone. 3) CCP sees no chance to put the djinni back into the bottle They had been rather adamant in not wanting to seize people indirectly gaining from this. So if the toons have been handily alts, the profit stays with them. Hm. So what. While I can understand the financial background, of not wanting to waste a lot of expensive human resources on such a virtual issue, the leason we learn is that you can cheat, but that you should not be stuppid with it. Still hoping the exploid is not as widespreded, as I feel to be true.
Aprineil Buenaventura Gallente Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.12.16 16:13:00 - [2225] Thank you CCP. You still have at least one more pilot who thinks your doing a great job. ---- If you can catch me... You deserve a metal.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.16 16:49:00 - [2226] Originally by: Karille You seem to forget that people get lucky and discover extremely nice things in real life too. Not everyone gets an equal chance. I like that the game sometimes reflects this, whether it was intentional or not. I'm not all broken up about this or any other incident in the past. In fact i think they're all highly amusing. On top of that, the handling of this incident is pretty damn good. People always say "OMG COVERUP", but here you are getting information and talking about it. They're not banning people for badmouthing CCP, nor are they attempting to hide any of the contrary information that people are posting. They're making a reasonable effort to give you the information that you deserve and keeping their mouths shut about names and alliances, as they should. People discover things in real life too, but that requires a lot of research and investment. In eve it only requires a friendly Dev to spawn it for you... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gunship Amarr Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:03:00 - [2227] EvE was newer fair and newer will be...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.16 18:02:00 - [2228] Originally by: Gunship EvE was newer fair and newer will be... I think you mean "never". Life isn't fair too you, know, but then again, it is not purposely unfair, it is just how things are, and people, laws and a lot of other things do try to make it fairer. The fact something is not fair is no excuse to not try to make it fairer. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:46:00 - [2229] Originally by: Gunship EvE was newer fair and newer will be... What does fairness have to do with exploits?
Bilabong Joe	Posted - 2008.12.16 20:28:00 - [2230] Originally by: Gunship EvE was newer fair and newer will be... That has to be the dumiest coment ive ever seen, if it wasnt meant to be fair why they doing something to resolve this?? why have game dynamics at all.. Geez why do some people even come to the forums at all???????????????? CCP GIVE US SOME UPDATE'S PLEASE!!!! this is why we pay you......

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.16 20:47:00 - [2231] Originally by: MMXMMX Quote: Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. STIL NO NEWS FROM CCP ? link? Fetchez la vache !
Ock Ore	Posted - 2008.12.16 22:15:00 - [2232] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Rooster Fish How would you justify handing out a ban to someone for buying t2 items produced via exploit even though there is no way to verify whether they knowingly or unknowingly bought these goods? Is there any reasonable way to go about sorting any of the bull** from the truth without taking down hundreds of innocent players and eating up months of work hours or can we just move on? Oh no wait, it's better to whine that no one cares even though perhaps less than 20% of the people posting here were probably negatively affected by this in any way, shape or form. What line from Office Space do those Minutes remind me of? "THIS IS NOT A MUNDANE DETAIL, MICHAEL!"** repackaged as a calm, indifferent summary statement. And incidentally, I'm not disagreeing with anyone who is blaming CCP for the oversight - I'm just making it clear that there are a lot of us who aren't the least bit surprised by this or the lack of realistic reprisal solutions. To those who really were negatively affected by this, your choice is simple - suck it up and move on in the new economy, or wind down operations here and sharpen your axe for some fantasy mmo or a 1P diversion until something better comes along. I don't justify banning of anybody. I do not even think it would be crucial to ban the direct cheaters to be honest. Banning is of little consequence here. I justify the elimination of all the fruits of the exploit within the possibilities, meaning: - All the ISK gained no matter where it ended - All the assets gained no matter where they ended - Fine the correspondent ISK from those who gained assets financed by the exploit if those assets no longer exist (where destroyed) - Disband the alliances that directly benefitted from the exploits, but leave the players alone, save for the measures above. Go Die in a fire. You want to take away all of my isk I have made by being an honest t2 producer? I purchased ferrogel on a regular basis, made ships out of it, and sold it to other people. So now you want all of those assets and money that I have spent to just dissapear? You really have no idea how the market works and how interconnected every single producer/consumer in this game is.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.16 22:30:00 - [2233] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 22:32:44 Originally by: Ock Ore Go Die in a fire. You want to take away all of my isk I have made by being an honest t2 producer? I purchased ferrogel on a regular basis, made ships out of it, and sold it to other people. So now you want all of those assets and money that I have spent to just dissapear? You really have no idea how the market works and how interconnected every single producer/consumer in this game is. What about you try to read what people wrote and UNDERSTAND it before you start burning said people? If you sold T2 itens or ships for this guys, the itens you sold to them should disappear, the money they paied you should be left alone. If you bought ferrogel from them the ferrogel you bought should be left alone and the money you payed to them should disappear. This is the same procedure that is currently used regarding ISK sellers. As nothing is simple neither in this life, nor in Eve, there are a few exceptions here. If you sold, lets say, 50 jump freighters to these guys for 20 Billion each (500% of markup more less), you are obviouslly laundering their money and are at least a collaborator or, most likely, one of them. In this case your money should be sequestered as well. In a similar way, if you bought 100K ferrogel at 1 ISK a unit from them, the same applies. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Cpt Lollercakes Warriors of COAD	Posted - 2008.12.16 23:16:00 - [2234] Realistically there is no way to fix this, and CCP has probably done as much as they are prepared to do before Wranglers OP, but don't that let that stop another 75 pages.
Devil Puppet	Posted - 2008.12.16 23:50:00 - [2235] Originally by: Cpt Lollercakes Realistically there is no way to fix this, and CCP has probably done as much as they are prepared to do before Wranglers OP, but don't that let that stop another 75 pages. I'd have to agree with this statement, I'm glad that someone out there is thinking in realisticially. Everyone is in such a hurry to get all there intel ASAP, Slow it down folks, no need to rush.... Let it be for now and stop wasting your voice on events that you cannot possibly change. They will give the Official Post after this weekends CSM meeting most likely.
MartinLaw	Posted - 2008.12.17 01:25:00 - [2236] Originally by: Aprineil Buenaventura Thank you CCP. You still have at least one more pilot who thinks your doing a great job. A lot more than one. People who are happy tend not to post as much.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.17 01:27:00 - [2237] Originally by: Gunship EvE was newer fair and newer will be... It's supposed to be within a set of guidelines though of legal mechanics. Unless of course, you know something we don't... (See? Sometimes some players just don't help themselves build negative reputations.)
Kautsu Chen	Posted - 2008.12.17 01:44:00 - [2238] Originally by: Talidorn Edited by: Talidorn on 15/12/2008 01:43:34 2079 - The year that I will actually have all my skills trained to lvl 5... if ccp keeps adding new skills and content. Anyway - CCP is doing their CCP thing. No amount of whinage is going to help. I waited for this long to reply because I didn't really feel like sharing my original thoughts. <- I knew once I took a deep breath and relaxed my feelings would change. Does it suck? Sure... 70 of XXXXXXXX accounts can FUBAR the whole of the economy. But hey... you get to be on with how many thousand players at the same time? I've had 50 things that made me want to quit EvE... the longest I've stayed away was 6 months. Oh the pain of withdrawls! I'll still be here when the next major exploit, nerf, CCP removal of features, etc. happens. If you wont... Can I have your stuff? Talidorn Ah.. I have wondered how long it wuold take one of your kind to mess with this thread. Your kind are very constructive. You always say "Do now whine, but give all of your stuff to me". Your kind are the best friends of pirates and griefers. How many billions you have gained from this exploit? The Scope? You do not have guts to join corp with real podcombatants? Piracy is quite safe when nobody can wardec you and only a short window of time of vulnerability after each attack... Yours Kautsu Chen
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.17 02:11:00 - [2239] Originally by: Cpt Lollercakes Realistically there is no way to fix this, and CCP has probably done as much as they are prepared to do before Wranglers OP, but don't that let that stop another 75 pages. There is, it just requires competence and a fair amount of effort. Unfortunatelly CCP has proven to be lacking of the first trait, and unwilling to afford the second. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Mr morris Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 02:26:00 - [2240] Dear CCP- How many other times have you banned players for a simple exploit without warning? Why did you suddenly wake up and ban 70+ accts. for one common exploit. After identifying the exploit it seems like you reacted in an unreasonably harsh manner. A warning shot over the bow of the offenders ships would have worked just as well. Going public with a statement that CCP is now aware of the issue & has now officially deemed it an exploit with any future offenders facing a ban as inevitable consequence would have been a more reasonable action. Slap people's hand for being smart/lucky, don't cut their heads off. Mr Morris is sold in game on boyout offer.

Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.12.17 02:32:00 - [2241] Originally by: Mr morris Dear CCP- How many other times have you banned players for a simple exploit without warning? Why did you suddenly wake up and ban 70+ accts. for one common exploit. After identifying the exploit it seems like you reacted in an unreasonably harsh manner. When you realise that those 70 accounts were just the tip of the iceberg, then you will see that CCP, far from acting harshly, have been incredibly lenient.
Ho HsienKo CBC Interstellar	Posted - 2008.12.17 03:31:00 - [2242] Originally by: Mr morris LET THEM EAT CAKE!! The Cake is a LIE!! As far as I am concered this is a good start to the mass account bannings that the community deserve over this fiasco. AND intenal affairs best be getting out its microscope to see if there is any kind of link or possibility of one to any staffers. Lets see what "Revelations" the weekend brings shall we.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.17 04:00:00 - [2243] Hello, i've just read through all the 75 pages and lost 0,0325% of my braincells. I want em back, now.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.17 04:07:00 - [2244] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Hello, i've just read through all the 75 pages and lost 0,0325% of my braincells. I want em back, now. Sorry, but you can't lose a fraction of a brain cell, the single one you had before is still there, you just have to look for it harder. Now move along. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
RabbidFerret Prophets Of a Damned Universe Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2008.12.17 04:09:00 - [2245] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Sorry, but you can't lose a fraction of a brain cell, the single one you had before is still there, you just have to look for it harder. Now move along. ha haha ha, that was witty! Did anyone see what the witty man did there? so witty. RabbidFerret Pod-U
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.17 04:19:00 - [2246] Originally by: RabbidFerret ha haha ha, that was witty! Did anyone see what the witty man did there? so witty. See, Yakia TovilToba? You are not that bad yet, there is still a long way to go. So don't worry. There are several threads like this ahead before you get this bad. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
mythpilot	Posted - 2008.12.17 05:12:00 - [2247] hmmm, interesting letter i found while shearch the series of tubes. Here not accusing, think what you want to think...
sliver 0xD exiles. The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.12.17 08:08:00 - [2248] Edited by: sliver 0xD on 17/12/2008 08:09:02 Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Originally by: Gunship EvE was newer fair and newer will be... What does fairness have to do with exploits? Some bugs make you lose a stuff, other bugs make you rich. ccp punishes the one who becomes rich, but the one that becomes poor they leave to die. iam against the mass ban. these were the game mechanics, without ccp telling us otherwhise there legal to use. that ccp made a f*ckup doesnt mean they can ban a load of players and take a load of isk back. --- Somebody needs a hug!
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2008.12.17 08:51:00 - [2249] Originally by: sliver 0xD ccp punishes the one who becomes rich, but the one that becomes poor they leave to die. Huh? Quote: these were the game mechanics, without ccp telling us otherwhise there legal to use. Don't take this personally, but if you really believe that, I think this game should have a minimum-IQ requirement. I would be willing to argue whether or not something like POS bowling should be an exploit or not, but in cases like this where things spawn without explanation out of thin nothing, there can be no question that it is not an intended game mechanic. If anyone really thought it was supposed to work this way, I suggest immediate guardianship for that person.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:09:00 - [2250] Originally by: sliver 0xD Edited by: sliver 0xD on 17/12/2008 08:09:02 Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Originally by: Gunship EvE was newer fair and newer will be... What does fairness have to do with exploits? Some bugs make you lose a stuff, other bugs make you rich. ccp punishes the one who becomes rich, but the one that becomes poor they leave to die. iam against the mass ban. these were the game mechanics, without ccp telling us otherwhise there legal to use. that ccp made a f*ckup doesnt mean they can ban a load of players and take a load of isk back. There is no way anyone with a brain functional enough to online a starbase would not have known the exploit was wrong. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.

Technovar Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:42:00 - [2251] Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe Have you ever even worked in the IT Industry? This is actually the way things are done. Most notably up here in the icy arctic of Canada. These positions are known as "System Testers." Where the first requirement is an innate understanding of the code you're testing. Hmm. Yes. White box testers, who are paid something from 50-75% what a good dev makes. It's not a good situation, but sadly, it's the case. Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe Tell you what, try working in the IT field for a few years in a REAL shop, in stead of some smoke-and-mirrors shop like you've been working in. Some developers prefer to find the holes in other peoples' code rather than write their own code. Seeing as how testing is this surprisingly integral part of the development process, you actually do get paid as much as if you were an actual developer. My shop in point, where developers of ALL KINDS (including testers) are qualified by one of six "Systems Officer" titles, ranging from one through six inclusively. This is actually the way shops run. Sorry to impugn your e-peen, dude. I've only been in this business 15 years. Note, I don't look down on testers or devs that choose to work in test. Perhaps in Canada the pay scales and intangibles are similar, but there's also likely a reason why most of the good Canadian devs I know are here in the States. I like many things about Canada, not least of which being that it's not the US politically, but there are certainly more opportunities here. Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe Here's a quick breakdown of the percentage of time (and importance) placed on each portion of the Systems Development Lifecycle (SDLC): 10% - Analysis and Requirements Gathering (this role is often played by a programmer hired under the title of an "Analyst" and is notably a position involving NO CODE, but instead talking between the client and the Development Team... it notably pays a salary equivalent to that of developers) "Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to! I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?" Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe So on whatever messed up planet you live in, they need to discover how programmers work... or more aptly: a programmer is what you are not. Please don't try to masquerade as someone you're not. It will be pointed out. Ahh. Financial IT or in-house business code? Fine, Mel. You're a "real programmer". Code that has to be delivered on schedule to consumers that act like the crowds here in the forums? There's a different story there. Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe More to the point, testing is actually the backbone of a properly designed application. Whatever messed up shop you're in that pays testers less than developers needs to get their head on straight and start paying their employees what they're worth. It's either that, or take one look at the IT industry and then leave. There are enough ***ty players of the game like CCP and Microslop... we actually don't* have room for more. Hint: I agree strongly with you, but no matter how much King Canute orders back the tide, it still comes in, and guess what happens when your gold-plated "pays everyone what they're worth" shop mentions how much that'll cost?
Technovar Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:55:00 - [2252] Originally by: Technovar Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe So on whatever messed up planet you live in, they need to discover how programmers work... or more aptly: a programmer is what you are not. Please don't try to masquerade as someone you're not. It will be pointed out. Ahh. Financial IT or in-house business code? Fine, Mel. You're a "real programmer". Code that has to be delivered on schedule to consumers that act like the crowds here in the forums? There's a different story there. Ahh, upon reading further down the thread, I was close. Government bureaucracy coding, and for health care no less. It's much easier when you have public funds to play with and the big stick of "people will DIE" to wield. It's not so great when you have to stand in front of the CFO or the board to justify the cost of that testing department that isn't adding the new flashy features that sales and marketing demand. Seriously, it's a whole different world outside of government where deadlines and costs actually matter.
Technovar Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:04:00 - [2253] Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe It doesn't really shock me... when you think about it, the kind of organisational requirements to bring a company up to the expected bar of IT standards, I guess it's understandable that they'd try to avoid such work. It's pathetic and no excuse... but I mean... I am kind of lazy, so I can understand the lack of drive to fix the mechanisms of terrible problems. I'm not too shocked that CCP is willing to risk that. They actually let things slide for so long that it already happened. I've taken the courtesy of sending you an EVE-mail to identify said product, just for entertainment sake. Knowing the forum rules, I'm not going to advertise said product here, lest the forum mods censor it. So I mean... having already let it slip for that far, what do they still have to lose? Sure, the product I'm talking about isn't an exact clone, and might lack the whole "One world, one server" approach... but a lot of details are still foggy. Interesting. I'm curious about the timeline and price point that this supposed new product will meet, if they're working to government/medical/banking CYA standards rather than the usual standards in computer game coding. I know of a few games that are written by programmers that write code for the military/government. One of them is in the neighborhood of $250 per seat (with a dongle to lock it down), and unsurprisingly it's not exactly the most popular product out there. It's beautiful and accurate, though. I bought it.
Zeul Caldari PLYT Center of Research and Development	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:38:00 - [2254] LOL...CCP you are noobs
AncientLord	Posted - 2008.12.17 14:13:00 - [2255] Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51 For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time. Post from 2005 Linkage
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.17 14:37:00 - [2256] Edited by: Karille on 17/12/2008 14:52:13 Originally by: AncientLord Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51 For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time. Post from 2005 Linkage I'm going to punt you back to 2005. (ingame) Did you even read the post you linked to? A post in a thread about ship reimbursement that states someone "suffered" from an exploit and was "frustrated" when the solution provided doesn't work is hardly evidence of a free reaction exploit. Taken in context of the tread and the events in game around that time in game, the post you linked is most likely about shooting through starbase forcefields. And if they do have video proof let them pull that crap out. I'll be convinced and join the rabble then. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
AncientLord	Posted - 2008.12.17 14:38:00 - [2257] Originally by: Karille Originally by: AncientLord Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51 For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time. Post from 2005 Linkage I'm going to punt you back to 2005. (ingame) Did you even read the post you linked to? A post in a thread about ship reimbursement that states someone "suffered" from an exploit and was "frustrated" when the solution provided doesn't work is hardly evidence of a free reaction exploit. Taken in context of the tread and the events in game around that time in game, the post you linked is most likely about shooting through starbase forcefields. I wont even comment on your....
Millenia Fallenwing	Posted - 2008.12.17 17:25:00 - [2258] Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 17/12/2008 17:28:25 Just out of interest, Does the recent sales of T2 BPOs from: Manticore, Huginn, Hulk and others. Other mod prints are also being sold in other threads who have direct links to the same place. Aswell as 60-80 Million Skillpointed Supercapital spec chars by Band of Brothers have anything to do with BoB with a high negative wallet due to recent EVOL directors being banned?
Millenia Fallenwing	Posted - 2008.12.17 17:34:00 - [2259] Selling Dirty BPOs for clean Isk. BoB Directly http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=943877 A BoB Broker http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=946885
Justice Starcatcher H A V O C	Posted - 2008.12.17 18:16:00 - [2260] Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 17/12/2008 14:52:13 Originally by: AncientLord Edited by: AncientLord on 17/12/2008 14:14:51 For those who didnt belived that this exploit was here for so long time. Post from 2005 Linkage I'm going to punt you back to 2005. (ingame) Did you even read the post you linked to? I'm with Karille on this one. That link is just troll bait . And, stinky troll bait too. What the...

Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.17 22:35:00 - [2261] Originally by: Millenia Fallenwing Edited by: Millenia Fallenwing on 17/12/2008 17:28:25 Just out of interest, Does the recent sales of T2 BPOs from: Manticore, Huginn, Hulk and others. Other mod prints are also being sold in other threads who have direct links to the same place. Aswell as 60-80 Million Skillpointed Supercapital spec chars by Band of Brothers have anything to do with BoB with a high negative wallet due to recent EVOL directors being banned? Not that I did not notice recent sell by members of BoB of their T2 BPOs, but there is no way to know the personal reasons behind it. However, I am curious, where did you dig up that EVOL directors being banned or BoB negative wallets. As of till now, Ev0ke are the only ones implicated.... Care to provide the source of your statement, or is it pure conjecture? ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
GunnerC Bessemer Inc Silent Requiem	Posted - 2008.12.18 08:42:00 - [2262] Edited by: GunnerC on 18/12/2008 08:42:53 A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies: I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all. The aspects of this that have particularly got to me are: 1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless. 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come. 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me. 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool! Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.18 10:20:00 - [2263] Edited by: Glengrant on 18/12/2008 10:21:35 Originally by: GunnerC A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies: I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all. That's your choice and I'm sorry you don't enjoy EVE anymore. See you in a year when you are back. :-) But ... Originally by: GunnerC 1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless. Pff - that part makes no sense. Every time a big patch changes some features or new features get introduced (just think invention as an obvious big example) the market moves by as much and more as this exploit has done. A few people made a lot of money by cheating. A part of that money just vanished again by closing those accounts. But to the rest of the economy it's just a bit of supply changes in some T2 input materials. It doesn't change any meaning for the rest of the market at all. Prices fluctuate all the time. Sometimes due to patches, sometimes due to wars and disruptions in logistics. Originally by: GunnerC 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come. Nope. The total amount of money didn't actually change by this - it will just distribute a bit differently again. The effects on the economy as a while will actually be small and not matter at all soon. T2 products might appreciate in price for quite a while - but that's part of the market and not such a big deal. They won't be nearly as high as pre-invention. If current information is correct and the exploit was only used widely in most recent months then prices will just roughly go back to where they were before big scale abuse happened. Originally by: GunnerC 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me. Then don't bother to ever again play any MMOG. With your expectations you will be disapointed. Realistic expectations lead to less frustration. :-) Originally by: GunnerC 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool! You said it yourself - wasn't a factor this time. Was a factor just that one time and I'm sure CCP has better monitoring now. OTOH devs being involved in the game does have advantages for us players: 1) They understand the game better 2) It makes a big diff whether the game is just a way to make money or something you personally love and have a stake in. See what SOE did with a game like SWG (http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). That's what you get when beancounters make all the decisions and there is no personal connection. I'd rather have a dev scandal every 5 years then a company who doesn't love its game and just sees it as a product to milk for money, use it up and then sell the sequel or something else. Originally by: GunnerC Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it. Perhaps - but not for the reasons you have given here. ;-) Have fun --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.18 10:30:00 - [2264] Originally by: Zeul LOL...CCP you are noobs Go - make a MMOG, keep it successfully running and expanding for over 5 years while some of your players will complain whatever you do or don't do and then come back and tell me you had no issues. Fat chance. As you probably haven't ever done anything like this it's fair to say the noob is you (and the rest of us too of course). Oh the difficulties of sitting at home and imagining everything you would have done so much better while not actually having to risk or prove anything. Silly troll. :-) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Azuraito Caldari Villains	Posted - 2008.12.18 12:03:00 - [2265] Originally by: GunnerC Edited by: GunnerC on 18/12/2008 08:42:53 A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies: I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all. The aspects of this that have particularly got to me are: 1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless. 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come. 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me. 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool! Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it. I will be remaining We dont want cry baby's like you anyhow, you could always try Angels Online LaVista Vista for president! .
CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.18 13:21:00 - [2266] Originally by: Phillipx Ok, I've quietly watched and read what is going on and here is my take on it Some guy said he noticed it 4 years and petitioned it. It was never fixed. periodically throughout the past few years have gone unheeded. Now all of a sudden, it goes public and all hell breaks loose. The original outing of the guy on the "other forum" stated that it was somewhere int he neighborhood of 2500 to 3000 BILLION isk worth of cheating. so 400m isk for a 60 day gtc at $14.95 US is $9343.00 and change. Now I pay every month for my game since I cant seem to make enough isk to buy a gtc every month, so the cash comes out of the bank. But this guy didn't have to do that, he just set up his reactions and came home to pay dirt every day. and I used the low end number, someone check my math, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. sorry guys, i think ccp owes all of us something in addition to everything else. this isn't a dev giving out some bpo's, this is economy subversion on a grand scale. I for one am very upset about all of this, Why don't we all just buy some isk, this was even worse than that, at least the isk buyers and sellers were actually using the mechanics to sell thier isk. but nooooo ccp say dont buy isk but lets this a55hole get away with free isk for 4 years. sorry im not buying it, they are trying to appease the populace flame on and i dont care about the typos... Actually, the guy that posted this post that got everything out in the open was banned 1st. So what actually happened was that this guy may have known for this bug for 4 years ( he could ofc also been stretching the truth, and it may have been only 3 years or whatever ), he send some bug report ( probably not in the correct way, but still he did ), then after abusing this for maybe 2 years, he gets banned. So from my perspective, CCP started banning people 1ST and only AFTER this, it gots out to the public. Honestly, this is the way it should go. It only took way too long ofc. Greetz Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC
Zorash Xanten	Posted - 2008.12.18 18:26:00 - [2267] Originally by: GunnerC Edited by: GunnerC on 18/12/2008 08:42:53 A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies: I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all. The aspects of this that have particularly got to me are: 1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless. 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come. 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me. 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool! Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it. Can I haz ur stuffz?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.18 22:05:00 - [2268] Originally by: Glengrant Go - make a MMOG, keep it successfully running and expanding for over 5 years while some of your players will complain whatever you do or don't do and then come back and tell me you had no issues. Fat chance. As you probably haven't ever done anything like this it's fair to say the noob is you (and the rest of us too of course). Oh the difficulties of sitting at home and imagining everything you would have done so much better while not actually having to risk or prove anything. Silly troll. :-) Because to criticize the incompetence of someone in a field you have to be good in that field right? I hope you never find an incompetent medic in your life, because by your logic you just have to accept you are worse than him and let him do his job as he sees fit... Oh, and please check the thread bellow, and post your opinions. Whatever they may be, support it or not, it is a matter worth discussion, in my opinion. Lack of transparency ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.19 01:34:00 - [2269] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Because to criticize the incompetence of someone in a field you have to be good in that field right? Nope - you don't have to be good at it. This forum clearly shows that everybody can have an opinion without putting much thought into it by just making things up and demand whatever comes to mind first. Originally by: Etho Demerzel I hope you never find an incompetent medic in your life, because by your logic you just have to accept you are worse than him and let him do his job as he sees fit... Nope. But IMHO you didn't get the example right. Taken your medic this is more like patients showing up and accusing the medic that he allowed the patient to get a cold and then not fix it in 5 minutes. CCP is accused of being incompetent because a very big and complex game doesn't work perfectly all the time and not being able to go through a mountain of data and provide detailed answers within hours. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Oh, and please check the thread bellow, and post your opinions. Already done. Another thread the world doesn't need. sigh Originally by: Etho Demerzel Whatever they may be, support it or not, it is a matter worth discussion, in my opinion. Not everything is worth discussing without end. Unrealistic expectation leading to frustration. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 02:54:00 - [2270] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 02:55:25 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Nope. But IMHO you didn't get the example right. Taken your medic this is more like patients showing up and accusing the medic that he allowed the patient to get a cold and then not fix it in 5 minutes. CCP is accused of being incompetent because a very big and complex game doesn't work perfectly all the time and not being able to go through a mountain of data and provide detailed answers within hours. CCP is accused of being incompetent because in these last 5 years it has: - lied to its customers multiple times; - been negligent regarding its employees manipulations in game; - banned innocent people because this people exposed its lies; - been negligent towards its own petition system allowing things like this to happen; - been negligent towards its own game failign to realize an exploit of these propotions; If a medic behaved like this he wouldn't only lose his license but go to the jail as well. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Already done. Another thread the world doesn't need. sigh Yeah, because any opinion that differs from your own is uneeded in your world right? Originally by: Etho Demerzel Not everything is worth discussing without end. Unrealistic expectation leading to frustration. I reckon that 3 days is "without end" for impatient people like you. Fortunately you don't HAVE to discuss about anything you don't want, do you? And by the sighs in your post and the bitterness, you seem to be the frustrated one. Maybe you should let go of all these things that stress you to much and leave the discussion for those who enjoy it, like me. I am quite happy abot it, I can assure you. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

XxHey BabyxX Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.19 10:18:00 - [2271] Look at the pathetic attempt of Damage Control by (former) Ev0ke/G Members. It's even worse on the German Eve online Forum.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.19 10:57:00 - [2272] Edited by: Glengrant on 19/12/2008 11:01:05 Originally by: Etho Demerzel CCP is accused of being incompetent because in these last 5 years it has: - lied to its customers multiple times; I've been around since the beginning and don't remember a single one. A bit of marketing spin here and there - sure - no saints in the real world. People claiming they lied ain't making it true. Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent regarding its employees manipulations in game; I guess they were a bit naive in the beginning in that they trusted their colleagues not to be as stupid as t20 behaved. I'm sure they have better checks now. Plus the whole affaoir will have been a warning to potential cheats. One case - get over it already. Originally by: Etho Demerzel - banned innocent people because these people exposed its lies; Again - I don't know of a single case where that happened. A banned user spinning his own version is to me not automatically more credible than CCP. Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent towards its own petition system allowing things like this to happen; I'm sure some stuff fell through the cracks here. Would be surprised if otherwise actually. I guess in your mind there are a few petitions per day, well written and easily handled. In my mind I see a deluge of silly stuff and people whining about every little thing they misunderstood or didn't like. The GMs handling that will try to get through their daily load as fast as possible - partly because players otherwise whine about how their petitions weren't resolved right away. And of course you hire or rent out that work - or would you expect devs and menagement to handle petitions? So there will be miscommunications. Again - your benchmark seems to be perfection while mine is the real world. Some low level of ** up is unavoidable (and you can't know which little thing later turns out to be a big deal). Your requirements only mean that every company is incompetent - but then the label is meaningless. Originally by:** Etho Demerzel - been negligent towards its own game failing to realize an exploit of these proportions; Depends on what really happened - which neither of us really knows at this time. Difference is that I don't believe every self-proclaimed recently banned whistle-blower and I don't assume that everything that CCP does is a coverup. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Yeah, because any opinion that differs from your own is uneeded in your world right? How did you you know? ;-) No - I have no problem with people having different opinions. I enjoy the occasional debate - obviously. :-) But it is my opinion that these threads get blown out of all proportion. This whole material creation thing for example - according to some people here it's soemthing that somehow damaged the market permanently - while actually it will have very little effect. Players who just start now will not know what we're talking about - market is working fine. Invention had had a vastly bigger effect on the economy. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Fortunately you don't HAVE to discuss about anything you don't want, do you? Right. But I have to go through all the drivel to find the occasional worthwhile stuff on the forum. Plus the whole pitchfork and torch mob thing here does annoy me. Enough to try to stand in the way. Originally by: Etho Demerzel And by the sighs in your post and the bitterness, you seem to be the frustrated one. Yup - my unrealistic expectation of people here behaving more reasonable lead to me getting frustrated. Agreed. :-) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Mothercare Elite D.I.S Organisation	Posted - 2008.12.19 14:40:00 - [2273] Originally by: Etho Demerzel CCP is accused of being incompetent because in these last 5 years it has: - lied to its customers multiple times; - been negligent regarding its employees manipulations in game; - banned innocent people because these people exposed its lies; - been negligent towards its own petition system allowing things like this to happen; - been negligent towards its own game failing to realize an exploit of these proportions; With almost a quarter of a million player as player base, I would be surprised to see if not at least some few moron did actually believe this to be true as well. However the vast majority of player donÆt buy this conspiracy crap. So if your are not a moron, I then wonder: For who do you work? Why do you try to hurt CCP business and our game? What is your hidden agenda with posting this type of crap? Did you post this because you a are moron? As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap that been repeated over and over again till all the morons start believe it was true or your are not. Then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. And what is that? Did they not reimbursed your lost ship? Did they not act to the minute as it pleased your whims? Did your mother not breast feed you when you was a kid? WHAT is wrong with you?
Demonos Silentium Caldari Nictus Astartes Harmonious Ascent	Posted - 2008.12.19 14:54:00 - [2274] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. damn long weekend.
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.19 15:10:00 - [2275] Originally by: Demonos Silentium Originally by: CCP Wrangler Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. damn long weekend. Damn bad at forums. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Demonos Silentium Caldari Nictus Astartes Harmonious Ascent	Posted - 2008.12.19 15:33:00 - [2276] yeah. both topics. this and that had no real conclusions. only lots of talk. which is sad
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:14:00 - [2277] Originally by: Glengrant I've been around since the beginning and don't remember a single one. A bit of marketing spin here and there - sure - no saints in the real world. People claiming they lied ain't making it true. Go to the ghost trainign thread and you will see the most recent one. Several others came before. In the T20 incident, in the ISD reporter incident and so on. I know you are a fanboy and won't accept any argument against your idols, but any attempt of defending them from this is silly, really. Originally by: Etho Demerzel I guess they were a bit naive in the beginning in that they trusted their colleagues not to be as stupid as t20 behaved. I'm sure they have better checks now. Plus the whole affaoir will have been a warning to potential cheats. One case - get over it already. T20 was the one who was caught. Wherever there are people caught it is likley there are smarter people doing the same that are not. But even so, this was the result of their policy, which generates conflicts fo interest, and was negligent in policing those conflicts. It still is as IA is just a figure head department. Quote: Again - I don't know of a single case where that happened. A banned user spinning his own version is to me not automatically more credible than CCP. This version was confirmed by CCP. Kieron himself had multiple posts about the subject trying to damage control. They didn't manage to point a single motive for the ban. The real motive was that he showed their dirty. And he was not the only one. There was an ISD reporter who suffered the same fate. This while they let SirMolle post real life information about people in this forum without consequences. Nice isn't it? Quote: I'm sure some stuff fell through the cracks here. Would be surprised if otherwise actually. I guess in your mind there are a few petitions per day, well written and easily handled. In my mind I see a deluge of silly stuff and people whining about every little thing they misunderstood or didn't like. The GMs handling that will try to get through their daily load as fast as possible - partly because players otherwise whine about how their petitions weren't resolved right away. And of course you hire or rent out that work - or would you expect devs and menagement to handle petitions? So there will be miscommunications. Again - your benchmark seems to be perfection while mine is the real world. Some low level of ** up is unavoidable (and you can't know which little thing later turns out to be a big deal). Your requirements only mean that every company is incompetent - but then the label is meaningless. I work in development, in a big company. We subcontract, we give support, and I can assure you that even though we are far from being perfect we would never simply igbnore a complaint and bury it. There are a lot of mechanisms to avoid this from happening because it is the negligent action most likely to result in a sue. Overload of the GMs means undercontracting which is not a justification or an excuse, it is the negligence itself... Quote:** Depends on what really happened - which neither of us really knows at this time. Difference is that I don't believe every self-proclaimed recently banned whistle-blower and I don't assume that everything that CCP does is a coverup No, you believe that everything CCP says is the absolute and inconditional truth. And we know part of what happened and the part we know is already enough to conclude that they slacked off. Badly. The Economist afirmed that they didn't detected it before because it was not in the market, and they would have to be looking for it to find it. Meaning they only used to check the amrket and nothing else. I don't know about you, but I would make periodic scans for duping checking exactly this, from time to time if I was in charge. It is the single most common exploit in any online game. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:21:00 - [2278] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 17:21:30 Quote: No - I have no problem with people having different opinions. I enjoy the occasional debate - obviously. :-) But it is my opinion that these threads get blown out of all proportion. This whole material creation thing for example - according to some people here it's soemthing that somehow damaged the market permanently - while actually it will have very little effect. Players who just start now will not know what we're talking about - market is working fine. Invention had had a vastly bigger effect on the economy. If it is growing without proportion, it is in part because some people feel so offended by it, I don't have a clue why, that they feel compelled to attack those that are rightfully demanding transparency about a service they pay for and complainign about the quality of this service to the company that sells it. Which is very within their rights. And if the said company decides to ignore them, it is also within their rights to quit, to make bad PR about them, and even sue them. CCPs lucky is that it is based on Iceland, if it was in US it would be flooded by lawsuits by now... Quote: Right. But I have to go through all the drivel to find the occasional worthwhile stuff on the forum. Plus the whole pitchfork and torch mob thing here does annoy me. Enough to try to stand in the way. So if you are opting to discuss, don't complain about it. Quote: Yup - my unrealistic expectation of people here behaving more reasonable lead to me getting frustrated. Agreed. :-) As is my unrealistic expectation of people behaviours, which you prove incorrect. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:27:00 - [2279] Originally by: Mothercare With almost a quarter of a million player as player base, I would be surprised to see if not at least some few moron did actually believe this to be true as well. However the vast majority of player don’t buy this conspiracy crap. So if your are not a moron, I then wonder: For who do you work? Why do you try to hurt CCP business and our game? What is your hidden agenda with posting this type of crap? Did you post this because you a are moron? As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap that been repeated over and over again till all the morons start believe it was true or your are not. Then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. And what is that? Did they not reimbursed your lost ship? Did they not act to the minute as it pleased your whims? Did your mother not breast feed you when you was a kid? WHAT is wrong with you? Maybe what you should ask yourself is what is wrong with you. To make an useless post, attacking another poster instead of challenging his ideas in any reasonable way. But I know how to make ad hominem arguments too, which are about the only answer your post deserves. Wanna see? You are either: - An outraged CCP employee; - One of the cheaters trying to cover his ass; - A CCP fanboy trying to keep his illusions; In either case, I fear I have to tell you you are very bad at what you are trying to do... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:31:00 - [2280] And after reading the minutes again, I still find it off that EyjoG was the CCP employee to respond to most of the CSM questions, even the non-economic ones...

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:36:00 - [2281] Originally by: Squirrrel And after reading the minutes again, I still find it off that EyjoG was the CCP employee to respond to most of the CSM questions, even the non-economic ones... It is weird indeed. What are you suspecting? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:47:00 - [2282] Originally by: Etho Demerzel This while they let SirMolle post real life information about people in this forum without consequences. Nice isn't it? Not that you are really interested in facts that upset your little deluded conspiracy, but Sir Molle did indeed suffer consequences for breaking the forum rules, exactly in line with the stated forum policies. You aren't upset that he recieved special treatment, but rather that he didn't. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 18:00:00 - [2283] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 18:05:35 Originally by: Avon Not that you are really interested in facts that upset your little deluded conspiracy, but Sir Molle did indeed suffer consequences for breaking the forum rules, exactly in line with the stated forum policies. You aren't upset that he recieved special treatment, but rather that he didn't. He posted again in that same thread later, so I highly doubt it. Edit: Oh and I just found soomething interesting in the EULA: "7. MISCELLANEOUS An immediate permanent ban of an account will result if a player: (snip) b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site." SirMolle is still playing, isn't he? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.19 18:34:00 - [2284] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 18:05:35 Originally by: Avon Not that you are really interested in facts that upset your little deluded conspiracy, but Sir Molle did indeed suffer consequences for breaking the forum rules, exactly in line with the stated forum policies. You aren't upset that he recieved special treatment, but rather that he didn't. He posted again in that same thread later, so I highly doubt it. Edit: Oh and I just found soomething interesting in the EULA: "7. MISCELLANEOUS An immediate permanent ban of an account will result if a player: (snip) b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site." SirMolle is still playing, isn't he? Would you like to see how that read at the time? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.12.19 18:59:00 - [2285] Originally by: Etho Demerzel He posted again in that same thread later, so I highly doubt it. Edit: Oh and I just found soomething interesting in the EULA: "7. MISCELLANEOUS An immediate permanent ban of an account will result if a player: (snip) b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site." SirMolle is still playing, isn't he? Please give thread link to the thread where this happened. thx
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.19 19:07:00 - [2286] Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Please give thread link to the thread where this happened. thx A good conspiracy is proved by the absense of facts. THEY COVERED IT UP, MAN! Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Kei Gravatid	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:25:00 - [2287] Originally by: Zeul LOL...CCP you are noobs That is being charitable. An exploit like this in Empire would never have gone on this long. It's their uneven approach to these issues that annoys me.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:35:00 - [2288] News item has been updated Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:36:00 - [2289] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Please give thread link to the thread where this happened. thx A good conspiracy is proved by the absense of facts. THEY COVERED IT UP, MAN! Sir Molle posted real life information about K. This information being: name, address, his company phone number, and other personal stuff. Not only that but he asked people to call his company and complain about him as well... Just to makes things more fun. Are you denying this? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Sonva Lat	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:40:00 - [2290] you kids should get a room or take your politic *****fight to caod or something so the rest of us can talk about the issue at hand

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:43:00 - [2291] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 21:45:31 Originally by: Avon News item has been updated The only new information is that the bug is indeed possible since 2004. It seems that the disgruntled banned guy was not lying after all. Everything he posted has been confirmed except for the petition which may yet appear... Waiting for the CCP fanboys' answers. Those same guys who tried to discret his statements. Originally by: Sonva Lat you kids should get a room or take your politic *****fight to caod or something so the rest of us can talk about the issue at hand We are discussing about CCP transparency and policies. It is very much on topic here, thank you. Who are you, btw? Avon's alt? If so tell him I am waiting for his answer, please. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:46:00 - [2292] Guys, come on: BoB Evil, No they are Not, yes they ARE. No Its Goons, No it was not Goons it was AAA.Whatever. It does not matter at this moment in this thread. What matters is that we keep encouraging CCP and CSM to provide more information as it becomes available, and as much information as possible. Hell, I would go as far as to tell CCP to give amnesty to the small fry who were involved in it, if they could provide information on the big guys, on the leaders of the operation. So long as it is not a hearsay, and can be backed up with the logs, and by subsequent investigation. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Captain Thunk Captain Morgan Society	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:49:00 - [2293] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Avon News item has been updated The only new information is that the bug is indeed possible since 2004. It seems that the disgruntled banned guy was not lying after all. Everything he posted has been confirmed except for the petition which may yet appear... Waiting for the CCP fanboys' answers. Those same guys who tried to discret his statements. Nevertheless it does indeed seem to be a very small minority of people who knew about it and were running many accounts each for free of the ill gotten gains. The disgruntled banned guy has exagerated the scale and has tried to implicate major alliances when infact there is no link (as yet) that ties any of them to it. I'm sure it'll take time to complete the investigation, but CCP do seem to be intent on being very thorough. The update of course will do nothing to appease those that simply want a massive conspiracy and will accept nothing less. Captain Thunk
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:50:00 - [2294] Originally by: Jinx Barker What matters is that we keep encouraging CCP and CSM to provide more information as it becomes available, and as much information as possible. No, what matters is that CCP makes sure the bug is fixed, those who expoited it are correctly punished, and that the damage that it may have caused is minimised. Giving out information is not important, simply because people will pick and choose what they believe, and twist or ignore that which does not fit in to their own view on the matter. Feeding the mob is a bad idea. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:53:00 - [2295] The last update (19th Dec) was quite good. Good info there. Thanks about that.
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:56:00 - [2296] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Jinx Barker What matters is that we keep encouraging CCP and CSM to provide more information as it becomes available, and as much information as possible. No, what matters is that CCP makes sure the bug is fixed, those who expoited it are correctly punished, and that the damage that it may have caused is minimised. Giving out information is not important, simply because people will pick and choose what they believe, and twist or ignore that which does not fit in to their own view on the matter. Feeding the mob is a bad idea. Secrecy breeds speculation. Most of the mob are reasonable, in my humble opinion. Those who want to make something of nothing always do so anyway. Secrets or no secrets. Does not mean that everything should be kept secret. Truth is a better option, even if unpleasant. If no proper information is given then even more people will believe all sorts of rumors and it might be damaging to EVE in the long run. ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:00:00 - [2297] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 19/12/2008 21:59:52 For those who did not see it, and thank you to the guy above Gnulpie, we have an update from CCP for the 19th. Originally by: CCP Exploit Update for the 19th of December Update: (12/19/2008) Here is an update on the investigation into the Starbase reactor exploit that we are currently conducting: 1. CCP has confirmed that this bug has been exploitable since February 2007. Changes to the Starbases code from launch until February 2007 are minimal and very unlikely to have caused the bug. So at this point we are working on the assumption that this bug has been exploitable since the release of player owned structures on November 24th, 2004. We will therefore focus solely on looking at Starbases data in order to determine who has been using this exploit, and for how long. 2. CCP has been able to restore older databases that show us that the bug has been exploited since at least January this year, but at a lower scale than in the last few months. The players involved then were the same ones that we found and banned recently. We are now working on restoring data from 2006 which will take us several days. It is uncertain if we will be able to have answers on that before holiday vacations. 3. CCP has been able to access data from our old petition system. We have been unable to confirm that a petition was filed in 2004, 2005 or 2006 pointing out this bug with Starbases. We urge anyone with information on who and when a petition on this issue was filed to contact us directly through the petition system under the Exploit Category. Alternatively, an email sent to [email protected] with details on the matter would be much appreciated. 4. The full investigation will take several weeks. CCP will be in direct contact with the CSM to discuss this issue and we will provide information to the community as it becomes available. 5. We have done a thorough investigation on our staff members and CSM members and found no links to this exploit. 6. Our actions so far have included the eradication of 178 starbases that were exploiting this issue. Some had multiple reactors running in the bugged state. We have also banned all those we have found directly involved and all accounts we have found to be connected to those players. The investigation is still under way and will take a while to conclude. We will continue to work hard to understand the overall impact of this exploit and how widespread it was. We ask for your patience until more information becomes available.... ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:01:00 - [2298] Originally by: Jinx Barker Secrecy breeds speculation. Most of the mob are reasonable, in my humble opinion. Those who want to make something of nothing always do so anyway. Secrets or no secrets. Does not mean that everything should be kept secret. Truth is a better option, even if unpleasant. If no proper information is given then even more people will believe all sorts of rumors and it might be damaging to EVE in the long run. I'm sure people get banned for stuff every day. You never hear about them. Where is the speculation? The CCP response to all of this should have been: "There was a bug which has now been corrected, and those who exploited it were banned. We continue to investigate and anyone else who is discovered to have exploited it will also be banned.", and then said nothing more. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:05:00 - [2299] Originally by: Jinx Barker Guys, come on: BoB Evil, No they are Not, yes they ARE. No Its Goons, No it was not Goons it was AAA.Whatever. It does not matter at this moment in this thread. What matters is that we keep encouraging CCP and CSM to provide more information as it becomes available, and as much information as possible. Hell, I would go as far as to tell CCP to give amnesty to the small fry who were involved in it, if they could provide information on the big guys, on the leaders of the operation. So long as it is not a hearsay, and can be backed up with the logs, and by subsequent investigation. It matters as it shows how CCP policies work and what is wrong about them. This occasion was a clear example of petty revenge against K., priviledged treatment of Sir Molle and total lack of transparency until the truth was mauled into their faces and they couldn't deny it anymore. If anything this occasion proved that the only way to make sure the big fishes go down is to uncover things ourselves and make sure they are suficiently detailed and disseminated in the Internet so no cover story is possible. Oh and prepare ourselves to be banned as consequence of this. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:06:00 - [2300] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Avon News item has been updated It seems that the disgruntled banned guy was not lying after all. Everything he posted has been confirmed except for the petition which may yet appear... Etho, it seems that you are complaining about something. Of course such a bug shouldn't have happened but so what? Thing is, it happened. And? Should we now shot ourselves and die? Life goes on man! No one is without flaws and the real question is how to deal with the flaws. What are you now complaining about? That CCP investigated after CCP got aware of the bug? Or do you complain that CCP keeps confirming that there was a bug and that it was exploited? What should they do instead? Shutting down Eve, telling the players to go home and just close CCP? The first update (the csm minutes) didn't look that promising and I posted some good deal of criticism also, but now I think that things are on the right track. They are telling us what they are doing, what they have done and what the results are so far and what they do not know yet. Again, if you are not happy, tell us what they should do instead and what could do better. And no, full external auditing is complete nonsense and that forensic expert stuff is also just idiotic. What are the REALSITIC options they have? I think they are doing the best they can right now. But if you know better, I am all ears.

Redd Sectoray Grand Neurotic Usurping Retaliation Force	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:10:00 - [2301] To CCP: Thanks for the update. Seems the investigation is coming along nicely, thanks for keeping us posted. On a sidenote, I suggest selling tin foil hats with an EVE logo in the store. Judging by some of the posts in this thread: you'll make a fortune! And though he's not the only one, hats off for Glengrant for taking the time and effort to be a voice of reason in the madhouse that is this forum thread. I'm glad to see there's still people around that know the difference between apples and oranges, facts and speculation and the real world and a soap opera.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Strength in Numbers.	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:13:00 - [2302] In light of the new update, i'd like to thank CCP for continuing the investigation and updating the players. Thank you CCP == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:23:00 - [2303] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/12/2008 22:24:56 Originally by: Gnulpie Etho, it seems that you are complaining about something. Of course such a bug shouldn't have happened but so what? Thing is, it happened. And? Should we now shot ourselves and die? Life goes on man! No one is without flaws and the real question is how to deal with the flaws. What are you now complaining about? That CCP investigated after CCP got aware of the bug? Or do you complain that CCP keeps confirming that there was a bug and that it was exploited? What should they do instead? Shutting down Eve, telling the players to go home and just close CCP? Which matter is that the bug that has been neglected by 4 years must be fixed as well as its consequences. Given the history of inaction by ccp, the only way to know for sure is if we have enough information to judge if the fixes are addressing what is importantant, meaning: the money, which by now must be in the hands of brand new accounts controlled by the same guys who were banned or alliances that used those corps as alt corps. As it is the punishement was irrelevant, and if you can't realize it you need to think more about it, really. Quote: The first update (the csm minutes) didn't look that promising and I posted some good deal of criticism also, but now I think that things are on the right track. They are telling us what they are doing, what they have done and what the results are so far and what they do not know yet. What exactly is the new information you extract from this post? Don't botter, I will tell you: In the CSM meeting they had already confirmed that the bug existed since Feb 2007, in this post they just onfirmed that there were no modifications that could likely produce this bug between 2004 and 2007. So the only thing good about this post or new at all is that now we know for sure the guy who posted in SHC did not lie. After almost a week they still havenothing new, that alone shows the interest... Quote: Again, if you are not happy, tell us what they should do instead and what could do better. And no, full external auditing is complete nonsense and that forensic expert stuff is also just idiotic. What are the REALSITIC options they have? I think they are doing the best they can right now. But if you know better, I am all ears. Ok, here goes: 1) disclose the name of the banned chars 2) disclose the data about the ammounts of advanced materials sold, ISK, etc they have and the method they used to find it. 3) disclose any account that received huge amounts of assets or ISK from these accounts without giving a similar amount of resources in exchange 4) go back to 3 until all cheating accounts are linked 5) destroy those assets I couldn't care less about bans. But the assets must be destroyed, and the only way of knowing they really were is by disclosing this data above. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
breiti Caldari The Rising Stars Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:27:00 - [2304] well done, thanks and go on CCP; i think everything has been said now. only the "final numbers" of accounts/player/corps that will be banned would be interesting. (well, for me ) cheers
Rata Nrnima	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:35:00 - [2305] Originally by: Princess Jodi CCP, if this was just a bug then I understand how it was not found. But look at the code closely, please.... you just might find something that shouldn't be there. Started playing eve May this year. I played for months, then they put a major patch in. Some things changed and I put in a petition. Discovered I was playing a game no one else had access to. Being a Noob, I didn't belong to a corp or alliance, didn't know the game I was playing was different from the one everyone else was playing. To make an incredibly long story short, CCP GMC was provided screen shots,databases, etc., and to this day they insist the game we were playing did not and does not exist. They removed "non-existent" items from my hangar; got all the details from me; had eye-witness account from one of their "players" befriending me in-game and actually playing that game with me. I didn't know the rats didn't talk to everyone, etc., announce when enemies entered the system, etc. I know now, so I played for 5 months this game. It was a game code hidden in EVE that I stumbled upon and won! and they took it from me. They know one of theirs is cheating for someone. I won a game I wasn't suppose to. They took it from me. They deny to this day that game exists. CCP will never oust the culprits because the culprit is CCP. That game was entirely too extensive for it not to have been programmed. Told me I was finding a series of plexes, and explorations that never appeared in my tabs. In other words, they lied and when the lie didn't work they denied, then closed their eyes and blamed it on my noobiness. I have pages and pages of communications between my self and CCP petition personnel. They insist, "if the people who wrote the program say that game does not exist, it doesn't. They would know". If they didn't investigate that - they won't investigate this. People who have viewed my documentation agree - THIS WAS FOR SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME ! ! ! It is not an exploit, not a bug. It is programed cheating.
Brigitte Helm Minmatar Flying Fox Industries	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:40:00 - [2306] Edited by: Brigitte Helm on 19/12/2008 22:39:51 Originally by: breiti well done, thanks and go on CCP; i think everything has been said now. only the "final numbers" of accounts/player/corps that will be banned would be interesting. (well, for me ) cheers I agree with the above and other true players that understand no game is ever bug free. CCP could have banned and said nothing, in which case whiners moan. They could have release the names of all, in which case whines moan. They have done what needs to be done. Reported. Banned. Investigated. Updated. Continue to Investigate. We can't ask for more. Professional response. Hug a Carebear, Kill a pirate, squish a Rat, and tickle a dev. Make Eve fun....
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.19 22:47:00 - [2307] Very well handled imo. When the issue was raised, from that moment on, there would always be a negative side. And CCP have actually found one of the best (if not the best) ways to handle the situation. So congrats on a successful achievement. Tbh, i actually believe this exploit was for the best. Its given me a huge confidence boost in CCP. Granted, it relied on a 'concerned player', but then again....Its MMO for both the players and GM/Devs alike :) *Tips hat
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:01:00 - [2308] Originally by: Jinx Barker Guys, come on: BoB Evil, No they are Not, yes they ARE. No Its Goons, No it was not Goons it was AAA.Whatever. It does not matter at this moment in this thread. ---------------------------------------------------------- Well yes It does, to take the blame/stigma of the innocent, ---------------------------------------------------------- What matters is that we keep encouraging CCP and CSM to provide more information as it becomes available, and as much information as possible. ---------------------------------------------------------- yes that much is true, and maybe find a bigger role for the CSM ---------------------------------------------------------- Hell, I would go as far as to tell CCP to give amnesty to the small fry who were involved in it, if they could provide information on the big guys, on the leaders of the operation. So long as it is not a hearsay, and can be backed up with the logs, and by subsequent investigation. ---------------------------------------------------------- might be better to take a different stance with all involved IE remove corp/alliances, strip all assets, and remove skill points. Let them start again in npc corps. just an idea
wizechatmgr	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:03:00 - [2309] I must say, a little more transparency would be nice. That said, this is a company, they host/update/maintain this game to make a profit. Code exploits happen all the time in projects, but lets face it guys, the "usual" routine is to fix the issue, release press about it, and go on with life. When is this "fix" or was this "fix" deployed? Keep in mind guys, not everyone who exploited this likely meant to. Some may have accidentally done so, etc. As far as conspiracy theories go, I too agree the tinfoil hats should be sold in the store.
CHoKeD Minmatar Cloak and Daggers Ocularis Inferno	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:08:00 - [2310] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Avon Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Please give thread link to the thread where this happened. thx A good conspiracy is proved by the absense of facts. THEY COVERED IT UP, MAN! Sir Molle posted real life information about K. This information being: name, address, his company phone number, and other personal stuff. Not only that but he asked people to call his company and complain about him as well... Just to makes things more fun. Are you denying this? Wasnt K already banned meaning he was not a subscriber? ----------------------- I fly for my tribe. I die with my tribe.

Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:11:00 - [2311] Originally by: Avon I'm sure people get banned for stuff every day. You never hear about them. Where is the speculation? At a guess, I'd say in all the macro miner threads where people are denying CCP even cares about banning macros. Perhaps posting names or numbers of macros banned would help? Quote: The CCP response to all of this should have been: "There was a bug which has now been corrected, and those who exploited it were banned. We continue to investigate and anyone else who is discovered to have exploited it will also be banned.", and then said nothing more. That would only bring in more speculation and distrust. Hiding information is only fueling speculation. Merely hiding itself even leads to distrust. Who is going to trust someone who openly hides something but doesn't explain why? When they declared they won't name the banned characters, they gave a reason. Whether you like it or not, it explains why they don't tell everything. Some are satisfied with that. Others will never be. Originally by: wizechatmgr Keep in mind guys, not everyone who exploited this likely meant to. Some may have accidentally done so, etc. As far as I know this is rather impossible - stuff doesn't just "appear" out of nothing. Surely this would look wrong to anyone?
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:13:00 - [2312] Originally by: Etho Demerzel After almost a week they still havenothing new, that alone shows the interest... Of course if they couldn't confirm some of the rumours and refute them it is 'nothing new', right? For example are they done going through all the petitions (which wasn't easy since they were at some time outsources as far as i understood) back to 2004 and found nothing there. But "nothing new". They investigated and checked all their staff and the csm people. But "nothing new". They released the exact number of poses involved so far(178) but "nothing new". It is good to be watchful and to be critical. But it is not reasonable to overdue it and ignore facts. Quote: Quote: I think they are doing the best they can right now. But if you know better, I am all ears. Ok, here goes: 1) disclose the name of the banned chars 2) disclose the data about the ammounts of advanced materials sold, ISK, etc they have and the method they used to find it. 3) disclose any account that received huge amounts of assets or ISK from these accounts without giving a similar amount of resources in exchange 4) go back to 3 until all cheating accounts are linked 5) destroy those assets And if you do not trust CCP - which is your good right - then why would you trust those names made public? To number 2: they found 178 pos with one or two reactors. So that is equivalent to roughly 2.5 mil ferrogel per day - of course also fermionic condensates were made and probably hypersynaptics also plus intermediate products. Yes, once the investigation is over, I would like to see the numbers of fraud materials and isk also. But at the moment the investigation is still going on. Makes no sense to do step number B before step number A. Yes I agree with step 2 quite, it is reasonable. Quote: I couldn't care less about bans. But the assets must be destroyed, and the only way of knowing they really were is by disclosing this data above. Again, if you do not trust CCP that they destroyed the assets then why would you trust them to release all the involved names and just not only a few of them? Makes not to much sense to me. About the individual names I do not really care that much, but I would like to learn the names of the involved corps and alliances. Because I do not believe that the involved alliances did not benefit from all these illegal isk.
Bird Free University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:14:00 - [2313] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Ok, here goes: 1) disclose the name of the banned chars 2) disclose the data about the ammounts of advanced materials sold, ISK, etc they have and the method they used to find it. 3) disclose any account that received huge amounts of assets or ISK from these accounts without giving a similar amount of resources in exchange 4) go back to 3 until all cheating accounts are linked 5) destroy those assets I couldn't care less about bans. But the assets must be destroyed, and the only way of knowing they really were is by disclosing this data above. 1) Why? What would you gain from that? Aren't they banned and therefore not playing the game? Would you like to spit on their faces? 2) You have the data. 178 POS, some running multiple reactions were using to exploit. Do the math. 3) From the news: "We have also banned all those we have found directly involved and all accounts we have found to be connected to those players." Isk donation is a connection ja? And trade and contracts and ejected cans... 4) It will probably lead to your character in one of those links 5) delete
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:57:00 - [2314] Originally by: Gnulpie And if you do not trust CCP - which is your good right - then why would you trust those names made public? For me, it's a case of giving some transparency to the subscribers. We can check those characters, we will know if they are banned or not, and we will also know if the list looks credible and a trace of the profits has been carried out, or if the list is purely a load of alts in alt corps. x accounts is just a number, and pretty meaningless. It provides no evidence of a proper and thorough investigation.
gordon861 Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:16:00 - [2315] Originally by: CHoKeD Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Avon Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Please give thread link to the thread where this happened. thx A good conspiracy is proved by the absense of facts. THEY COVERED IT UP, MAN! Sir Molle posted real life information about K. This information being: name, address, his company phone number, and other personal stuff. Not only that but he asked people to call his company and complain about him as well... Just to makes things more fun. Are you denying this? Wasnt K already banned meaning he was not a subscriber? By that logic CCP should now post the name and address of every banned player, no one is asking for that. We want the character names so we can confirm these people actually existed and have been removed. Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
Mei Ree	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:21:00 - [2316] Originally by: Jinx Barker Secrecy breeds speculation. Most of the mob are reasonable, in my humble opinion. The problem is that the few people who will take vigilante action do more harm than can be compensated by satisfying the curiosity of the reasonable people. Once you've lived in civilised society long enough, you'll realise that sometimes secrecy is necessary so that the lynch mobs don't go hanging and quartering innocent people.
Caffeine Junkie I.M.M	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:31:00 - [2317] Unfortunatley I fear that having my post on page 78 of this thread will mean it is overlooked, however I have a point I would like to make. While I agree that this issue is a problem and should be resolved, banning players who have been using this is simply unfair. This issue has never been reported as being an exploit and existed within the game mechanics. While I will accept it was obvious that it was not meant to function in this manner, EvE is a tough game and any chance to gain an advantage will be jumped on by any player who finds it (yes ANY player). My point is simple, NO ONE should have been banned over this, they have simply used a game mechanic to their advantage. CCP's QA department missed this bug, and retribution for this oversight should not be taken out on players. I would like to take this moment to point out that I am usually a firm supporter of CCP in all their actions, that I have had no part in any corporation, character, alliance or starbase that has used, benefitted from or had knowledge of this exploit. There are many places in this game where battles are fought and won, EFT isn't one of them.
Mirjam Starborn Amarr Roids'Are'Us	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:33:00 - [2318] Edited by: Mirjam Starborn on 20/12/2008 00:33:59 Originally by: Etho Demerzel You are either: - An outraged CCP employee; - One of the cheaters trying to cover his ass; - A CCP fanboy trying to keep his illusions;
Mothercare Elite D.I.S Organisation	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:45:00 - [2319] Originally by: Etho Demerzel You are either: - An outraged CCP employee; - One of the cheaters trying to cover his ass; - A CCP fanboy trying to keep his illusions; The very simplified version: As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap OR your are not and then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. If so, then what is that?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:55:00 - [2320] Originally by: Bird Free 1) Why? What would you gain from that? Aren't they banned and therefore not playing the game? Would you like to spit on their faces? 2) You have the data. 178 POS, some running multiple reactions were using to exploit. Do the math. 3) From the news: "We have also banned all those we have found directly involved and all accounts we have found to be connected to those players." Isk donation is a connection ja? And trade and contracts and ejected cans... 4) It will probably lead to your character in one of those links 5) delete 1) I gain the ability to check and see for myself if those people were really banned, if they are alts of people I know and if those chars were banned as well, as they should. I also gain at the final of the process enough information to see if it went as deep as it should, and if it got the big fishes as well as a bunch of alts. 2) Those 178 POSes are irrelevant nextto the amount of ISK these guys made, even in the timid figures from CCP which refer only about their direct market activity selling ferrogel in the last year. 3) If they say they did it should be true right? How about showing us who they banned so we can see for ourselves if it is reallythe truth? I find highly unlikely they went anywhere as deep as they should, but isn't it convenient for them that we can't check to see if I am right or wrong? To see if they really did something or not? What kind of transparency is this? 4) I have no fear whatsover of this happening. You on the other hand seems to be afraid of something... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:02:00 - [2321] Originally by: Mothercare As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap OR your are not and then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. If so, then what is that? I have a very clear and unhidden agenda, which can be easily inferred from my posts. I want transparency instead of obfuscation in a competitive game I happen to spend a good part of my time playing. And you do know I am not exactly worried about how you see me, don't you? If you want to refute this "crap", by all means, try and do it. If you can't, on the other hand, I suggest stay quiet. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
SPQRMocton Minmatar Hand Of Bethke	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:03:00 - [2322] Originally by: Caffeine Junkie Unfortunatley I fear that having my post on page 78 of this thread will mean it is overlooked, however I have a point I would like to make. While I agree that this issue is a problem and should be resolved, banning players who have been using this is simply unfair. This issue has never been reported as being an exploit and existed within the game mechanics. While I will accept it was obvious that it was not meant to function in this manner, EvE is a tough game and any chance to gain an advantage will be jumped on by any player who finds it (yes ANY player). My point is simple, NO ONE should have been banned over this, they have simply used a game mechanic to their advantage. CCP's QA department missed this bug, and retribution for this oversight should not be taken out on players. I would like to take this moment to point out that I am usually a firm supporter of CCP in all their actions, that I have had no part in any corporation, character, alliance or starbase that has used, benefitted from or had knowledge of this exploit. Whats wrong with you ? have you ever run a reaction pos? Well I have and if the pos is spitting out reactions for free then you KNOW it's functioning wrong, get that KNOW ? THEY KNEW THAT'S NOT HOW STARBASES WORKED ! = exploit So just because ccp didn't know about it doesn't mean it wasn't an exploit , so your statement of it being a game mechanic is completely phail ! Fly reckless and take chances..............it's more fun
Yoinx Caldari Black Elite	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:04:00 - [2323] So, these accounts are banhammered now. I suppose any/all the T2 BPO's they may have held are also gone now.... Shame. - I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. -
Mothercare Elite D.I.S Organisation	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:20:00 - [2324] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Mothercare As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap OR your are not and then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. If so, then what is that? I have a very clear and unhidden agenda, which can be easily inferred from my posts. I want transparency instead of obfuscation in a competitive game I happen to spend a good part of my time playing. And you do know I am not exactly worried about how you see me, don't you? If you want to refute this "crap", by all means, try and do it. If you can't, on the other hand, I suggest stay quiet. I take you answer on to the first question as: "No I am not a moron". Good, then we know you have a hidden agenda. (The fact you tries to prented you dont have one doesnt mean you do not have one, right. It is clear you tries to hide something here.) So what is this hidden agenda of your?
OSGOD	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:34:00 - [2325] the impact to ferrogel sales is an immediate doubling in price per unit from 20k to 40k a unit ,this is very sad as CCP are now punishing honest players 4 the acts of a few( 70 accounts is nothinf to the amount off people that actively play)thank you CCP 4 ****ing my xmas as i was going to give 3 m8`s KRONOS 4 xmas that is not going to happen till at least feb march now no thanks to bastards
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:37:00 - [2326] Originally by: Mothercare Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Mothercare As I see it, your are either a moron and do actually believe in this crap OR your are not and then you likely have a hidden agenda with your bull talk. If so, then what is that? I have a very clear and unhidden agenda, which can be easily inferred from my posts. I want transparency instead of obfuscation in a competitive game I happen to spend a good part of my time playing. And you do know I am not exactly worried about how you see me, don't you? If you want to refute this "crap", by all means, try and do it. If you can't, on the other hand, I suggest stay quiet. I take you answer on to the first question as: "No I am not a moron". Good, then we know you have a hidden agenda. (The fact you tries to prented you dont have one doesnt mean you do not have one, right. It is clear you tries to hide something here.) So what is this hidden agenda of your? Arguing that a person who calls for transparency and names of the banned to be revealed has a hidden agenda as opposed to many who want the names kept out of the public domain is an odd notion. I can only assume that Etho's "hidden" agenda is that he is concerned CCP will be covering something up for whatever reason. Saying that, it's far from a hidden reason for many players; more a case of genuine concern. (Please note I am not saying the majority of players - although it may be the case.)
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:47:00 - [2327] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Go to the ghost trainign thread and you will see the most recent one. I noticed that whining thread. Don't see where CCP lied there. It's obvious ghost training was not meant as a feature - just a side effect of how the code works. Then they tolerated it as long as it was an occasional thing. Then it got out of hand with many people doing it and they put a stop to it at last. Personally I don't care either way. Originally by: Etho Demerzel In the T20 incident, A single employee cheated. Thaqt stupid idiot. Originally by: Etho Demerzel in the ISD reporter incident and so on. Don't know about a USD reporter incident. Originally by: Etho Demerzel I know you are a fanboy and won't accept any argument against your idols, I have no idols. Never had - never will. If your definition of fanboi is somebody who is not into conspiracy theory and doesn't fall for forum mob mentality then I plead guilty. ;-) Originally by: Etho Demerzel but any attempt of defending them from this is silly, really. Funny - because I think the same about the need of some people here to assume the worst of CCP all the time. Originally by: Etho Demerzel T20 was the one who was caught. Wherever there are people caught it is likley there are smarter people doing the same that are not. So - assumption of guilt - let's not be bothered with any evidence. Originally by: Etho Demerzel But even so, this was the result of their policy, which generates conflicts fo interest, True. But the policy makes sense - and I want them involved in the game. Also the whole t20 affair made it much less likely that it would happen again. Originally by: Etho Demerzel and was negligent in policing those conflicts. Already granted that they were likely naive about this in the beginning. Must have been a shock that a valued colleague would do something so stupid and harmful to the company. Originally by: Etho Demerzel It still is as IA is just a figure head department. Any evidence - or again just assumption of guilt? Originally by: Etho Demerzel This version was confirmed by CCP. Can you please point me to that message? Originally by: Etho Demerzel They didn't manage to point a single motive for the ban. Err - they never discuss such reasons publicly. Originally by: Etho Demerzel The real motive was that he showed their dirty. Possible - but - you know - any prove? Or do you just assume so? Originally by: Etho Demerzel And he was not the only one. There was an ISD reporter who suffered the same fate. Because he said so? The common thing is that everybody else has 100% credibility while CCP has none? Originally by: Etho Demerzel I work in development, in a big company. We subcontract, we give support, and I can assure you that even though we are far from being perfect we would never simply igbnore a complaint and bury it. There are a lot of mechanisms to avoid this from happening because it is the negligent action most likely to result in a sue. Your customers pay only a few bucks per month but expect every wish fullfilled and insult you when expectations aren't met on their schedule? Also please decide whether your company is "far from being perfect" or "never ignore a complaint"? Originally by: Etho Demerzel No, you believe that everything CCP says is the absolute and inconditional truth. Nope. Originally by: Etho Demerzel I don't know about you, but I would make periodic scans for duping checking exactly this, from time to time if I was in charge. It is the single most common exploit in any online game.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:57:00 - [2328] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Squirrrel And after reading the minutes again, I still find it off that EyjoG was the CCP employee to respond to most of the CSM questions, even the non-economic ones... It is weird indeed. What are you suspecting? I don't really know what to make of it tbh. I can understand his input on the effects it has to the economy, not anything else though. He's the Chief Economist AFAIK, and has no dealings with anything else.
Mass Attack	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:01:00 - [2329] RESET EVE!
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:03:00 - [2330] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Etho Demerzel Go to the ghost trainign thread and you will see the most recent one. I noticed that whining thread. Don't see where CCP lied there. You obviously didn't follow events nor read the thread properly then. Their official statements for the reasoning for the fixing of this "bug" was laughable and changed as time went on and ultimately became about money. I could have stomached that reasoning if they had just said it from the outset instead of tryng to spin it.

Naim Mee	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:17:00 - [2331] So todays update pretty much confirms the original claim that the bug was possible from 2004?
HairClubForMen	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:30:00 - [2332] Originally by: Solostrom Originally by: Solostrom Putting 1 or 2 accounts for each alliance into Ban doesn't remove what has been a obscene exploit for 4 years! Is this why BoB, GS, AAA, have been able to field Titans forever.... I DEMAND that the ISK penalty be applied to any alliance who used it! Demand Perma ban on any account who used it... not just the alts... every account associated! You **ing *holes! Please tell us how you really feel.
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:34:00 - [2333] Originally by: Naim Mee So todays update pretty much confirms the original claim that the bug was possible from 2004? Yes and since the old petition system was such a POS [you see what I did there?] they aren't going to be able to give us accurate, believable data about how bad it was being exploited. The only good news is that if the exploit was not being used much in 2007 and only recently exploded into a serious problem then it is reasonable to believe that it was not a very big deal in 2004. I want to know why the petition was originally closed. Closing an exploit notification is just fail... I really hope that in 4 years the system has changed to the point where that does not happen. Happenings like this make you take a step back and say "Well what's the ****ing point?"
Poena Loveless Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:36:00 - [2334] Originally by: OSGOD the impact to ferrogel sales is an immediate doubling in price per unit from 20k to 40k a unit ,this is very sad as CCP are now punishing honest players 4 the acts of a few( 70 accounts is nothinf to the amount off people that actively play)thank you CCP 4 ****ing my xmas as i was going to give 3 m8`s KRONOS 4 xmas that is not going to happen till at least feb march now no thanks to bastards you are seeing this situation wrong. high end (r64, and even r32s to some extent) moons are rare. Rare things in eve are massively, exponentially expensive. This exploit actually artificially DROPPED prices of the t2 materials and with it fixed, after the economic frenzy of speculation is over, prices will level out at a much higher level that 3 weeks ago, etc.. That new, higher level will be the natural price level. To be your econ teacher for a moment, the supply has shifted to the left, and that will drive up prices.
Karath Piki	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:39:00 - [2335] You know, a lot of people here sound like certain corporate manager types who literally preach to managers "All of your employees are stealing from you. Your job is to fire them as soon as they reveal themselves." (real quote from a training session) You know what that is called? Dysfunction. It causes stress on everyone, increased medical costs (since overstressed bodies have reduced immune systems), higher rates of depression, increased turnover, and reduced productivity across the board (except for loss prevention managers). It also normalizes illegal and unethical behaviors and brings those who are trustworthy under greater scrutiny because they are so squeaky clean. When the assumption is made that there must be many more people involved, that is normalizing aberrant behavior within the population involved. It signals to those who may be on the fence about such behaviors that more people than they thought were doing it, and makes it that much more likely that they too will indulge. Every time one of these "scandals" hits and people call for complete transparency (and NO company would do that) I am reminded of just how distrusting society as a whole has gotten, and how close we remain to mob mentality rather than the civilized folks we pretend to be. So many pretend to just be following rules or procedures, but in fact we are participating in a witch hunt, looking for troublemakers and undesirables to blame for our own lack of success. Seriously, has ANY gaming company released the identities of banned characters or accounts for a situation like this? I read this thread (by which I mean sample, it's 78 pages after all) and think of all sorts of good reasons why not to release this kind of detail. And the biggest reason is to not feed the type of mob justice syndrome on display. Do you feel betrayed that out of a couple hundred THOUSAND subscribers, 70 accounts were found to be exploiting in this way? Or do you feel betrayed that only 70 accounts have so far been found to exhibit what some seem to think should be a widespread pattern of purposeful cheating? Do you feel let down that by and large people are decent rather than conspiring together in shadowy networks with invisible tendrils of hacks and exploits throughout the game?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:40:00 - [2336] Originally by: Glengrant I noticed that whining thread. Don't see where CCP lied there. A single employee cheated. That stupid idiot. Don't know about a USD reporter incident. You don't know about many things it seems. Even them you come here to speak loudly about how I am so wrong. I suggest that you inform yourself better about the topics you want to discuss... Quote: I have no idols. Never had - never will. If your definition of fanboi is somebody who is not into conspiracy theory and doesn't fall for forum mob mentality then I plead guilty. ;-) You irrationally argue defending CCP at all costs, and ignoring evidence against them. Even those blatantly obvious actions like the Ghost Training fiasco. If that is not being an irrational fanboy I don't know what is... Quote: So - assumption of guilt - let's not be bothered with any evidence. We can't have evidence, did you forget? CCP don't want us to look at it... Quote: True. But the policy makes sense - and I want them involved in the game. Also the whole t20 affair made it much less likely that it would happen again. They are so involved in this game that it took them 4 years and someone else pointing the problem to them for them to find out this bug, while they are doing their powerplays. And if anything T20 episode made it more likely to happen it again, because it showed that no matter what a CCP employee do it won't be fired. There are no consequences... Quote: Already granted that they were likely naive about this in the beginning. Must have been a shock that a valued colleague would do something so stupid and harmful to the company. To them maybe, because a lot of people had pointed to them this was happening for years, but they didn't bother even to look at it... Quote: Any evidence - or again just assumption of guilt? Any evidence of a single action they took? Did they publish any find in anything whatsoever? Did they correct any internal irregularity? Quote: Err - they never discuss such reasons publicly. No? I would swear they gave a clear motive for the last bans? I must be imagining things... Quote: Possible - but - you know - any prove? Or do you just assume so? Again, in the absence of information it is my prerrogative to imagine the worst. If CCP is innocent it just have to provide such information. Quote: Because he said so? The common thing is that everybody else has 100% credibility while CCP has none? Until this day everyone that posted dirties about CCP has been proved right sooner or later, CCP on the other hand has been proved lying more than once. This guy in specific worked for the community for free during years. So yes, he has a lot more credibility than CCP. Quote: Your customers pay only a few bucks per month but expect every wish fullfilled and insult you when expectations aren't met on their schedule? Also please decide whether your company is "far from being perfect" or "never ignore a complaint"? I am under the impression that CCP receives millions of dollars per month in signatures. But to a billionary like you that must seem like a few bucks... Quote: Nope. Oh yes, you do... Quote: The EVE DB handles insane amounts of data every single day. The amount of data is far from insane, and it is done in the real world with far more data. The fact that you are not capable of performing this job does not mean it is impossible or even difficult, sorry to break your paradigms. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:53:00 - [2337] Originally by: Karath Piki You know, a lot of people here sound like certain corporate manager types who literally preach to managers "All of your employees are stealing from you. Your job is to fire them as soon as they reveal themselves." (real quote from a training session) You know what that is called? Dysfunction. It causes stress on everyone, increased medical costs (since overstressed bodies have reduced immune systems), higher rates of depression, increased turnover, and reduced productivity across the board (except for loss prevention managers). It also normalizes illegal and unethical behaviors and brings those who are trustworthy under greater scrutiny because they are so squeaky clean. When the assumption is made that there must be many more people involved, that is normalizing aberrant behavior within the population involved. It signals to those who may be on the fence about such behaviors that more people than they thought were doing it, and makes it that much more likely that they too will indulge. Every time one of these "scandals" hits and people call for complete transparency (and NO company would do that) I am reminded of just how distrusting society as a whole has gotten, and how close we remain to mob mentality rather than the civilized folks we pretend to be. So many pretend to just be following rules or procedures, but in fact we are participating in a witch hunt, looking for troublemakers and undesirables to blame for our own lack of success. Seriously, has ANY gaming company released the identities of banned characters or accounts for a situation like this? I read this thread (by which I mean sample, it's 78 pages after all) and think of all sorts of good reasons why not to release this kind of detail. And the biggest reason is to not feed the type of mob justice syndrome on display. Do you feel betrayed that out of a couple hundred THOUSAND subscribers, 70 accounts were found to be exploiting in this way? Or do you feel betrayed that only 70 accounts have so far been found to exhibit what some seem to think should be a widespread pattern of purposeful cheating? Do you feel let down that by and large people are decent rather than conspiring together in shadowy networks with invisible tendrils of hacks and exploits throughout the game? Man, you are so right. Why expect the worse of people that are left unchecked? If you trust them they will do good. I suggest we start be forbidding banks from counting the money handled by their employees. Lets just trust them. Talking about banks we could let them do their business without external interference. We just have to trust them because they are pros and know their business, right? Oh wait... Maybe we should stop checking athletes from dopping. It is bad for them, all this pressure. And please, don't try to belittle this event. 70 accounts are indeed a small number compared to the total number of players, but they didn't find a way of logging off without dyigng in the middle of battle, or something equally silly, they made trillions of ISK of profit, which is game breaking on its own. The number of people exploiting is not as relevant as the nature and extension of the exploit itself. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Manta Avoid	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:16:00 - [2338] This is nice. Fat kids are harder to kidnap
Benilopax Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:20:00 - [2339] I joined EVE on the 24th of November 2004, my entire eve life was based on a lie! or I caused the exploit! or I am the exploit! Muhahahahhahha.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:38:00 - [2340] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Man, you are so right. Why expect the worse of people that are left unchecked? If you trust them they will do good. I suggest we start be forbidding banks from counting the money handled by their employees. Lets just trust them. I wasn't aware CCP was a bank, and for you information, banks do trust their employees, otherwise they wouldn't hire them. Keeping tracking of the money by "counting" it, which is mostly done digitally, is because if they didn't..they wouldn't be a bank..simple as that. It's not a question of trust, it's a question of doing what you're supposed to do, to run your business. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Talking about banks we could let them do their business without external interference. We just have to trust them because they are pros and know their business, right? Oh wait... Banks work primarily by dealing with external investors(you), projects, markets and so forth..if they didn't, they wouldn't profit very much, if at all. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Maybe we should stop checking athletes from dopping. It is bad for them, all this pressure. If you want to make this comparison you should've really considered it thoroughly first. Here is why: 1. There is a large organisation, sponsors and what have you that fund, run and manages athletic events, and also makes sure everyone plays by the same rules, dope testing people and so on. 2. Then theres athletes that all compete against each other in the 'arena' set by the organisation and sponsors, given a bunch a rules they must follow and sign contracts etc. I'm going to let you figure out for yourself which one of those 2 is CCP, and which one is the player..Etho, you're peeing on your own two shoes. Originally by: Etho Demerzel And please, don't try to belittle this event. 70 accounts are indeed a small number compared to the total number of players, but they didn't find a way of logging off without dyigng in the middle of battle, or something equally silly, they made trillions of ISK of profit, which is game breaking on its own. The number of people exploiting is not as relevant as the nature and extension of the exploit itself. Nobody is saying this isn't a big deal and that it isn't bad. Of course it is...That's why 70(!) accounts have been banned. I won't profess to be a mathmatical genius here, as this is pretty basic, but 1 account costs $15 a month, times 70 that's $1050 a month. Times 12 that's $12.600 a year, that CCP won't be getting now because of this. Maybe that doesn't sound like much to you, but to a company that has an economic plan to adhere to, this is bad.

QTab Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:43:00 - [2341] my dear etho I hope this letter finds you in better physical health than it does your mental health. I do not frequent the forums admitedly but I cought up a bit on this particular thread as it peaked my intrest and I found myself horrified by your particular attempts to derail the discussion about an investigation into an exploit, to something wich can only be called conspiracy theory insanity spun out of gross misinterpritation of announcements, circular logic, misquotes to history and impressive levels of paranoia. (I was particularly impressed with how you managed to read "yes it's most probably been possible since 2004" as "yes we've known about it the whole time and haven't cared till now") The agreement CCP makes with it's subscribers legally prohibits them from revealing what accounts/characters/players are found in violation of the EULA it is a standard in all such agreements from all online gaming companies and alot of other companies as well for example development companys, security companys, healthcare companys, insurance companys, financial companys all do the same thing for one single reason, the expectation of privacy. I doubt very much that you'd appreciate it if I asked CCP to give me your registration details so I could phone you up in the middle of the night to impress you with the vocabulary of profanitys I might like to call you. that presumably is the only reason you ask for said information because you cannot use it in any way to confirm any bans of accounts because the characters on banned accounts are deleted from the database, and even if they weren't you would need access to the DB that no player/customer should ever have. I trust CCP's IA not because I'm a fanboy but because an indipendant IA person went over their procedures and said he was impressed by the mechanisms they had installed(this person being a member of the 1st CSM and as such a representative of the players and not the companys) and that you think the only options are complete trust or complete distrust is appaling, what you are missing is trust in established procedures, bank tellers have their counting double checked, atheletes are drug tested, companys have IA departments. CCP has gone a step further than merely having an IA department, they've installed a council of democraticly chosen customer representatives who not only fullfill the role of being the players voice to CCP but also have been allowed to go over their IA procedures and the current CSM was brought in on this particular scandal right from the start. I wish you good health Yrs. QTab
QTab Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:46:00 - [2342] ow ... two etho slapping posts in a row .... I do apologise
Eisheth Vuu	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:50:00 - [2343] pics or STFU!
Mass Attack	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:55:00 - [2344] If you're not going to reset TQ, make a new 'shard', let it run for a month and the server with the larger community survives.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 03:59:00 - [2345] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 01:03:48 Originally by: Bird Free 1) Why? What would you gain from that? Aren't they banned and therefore not playing the game? Would you like to spit on their faces? 2) You have the data. 178 POS, some running multiple reactions were using to exploit. Do the math. 3) From the news: "We have also banned all those we have found directly involved and all accounts we have found to be connected to those players." Isk donation is a connection ja? And trade and contracts and ejected cans... 4) It will probably lead to your character in one of those links 5) delete 1) I gain the ability to check and see for myself if those people were really banned, if they are alts of people I know and if those chars were banned as well, as they should. I also gain at the final of the process enough information to see if it went as deep as it should, and if it got the big fishes as well as a bunch of alts. 2) Those 178 POSes are irrelevant next to the amount of ISK these guys made, even in the timid figures from CCP which refer only to their direct market activity selling ferrogel in the last year. 3) If they say they did it should be true right? How about showing us who they banned so we can see for ourselves if it is really the truth? I find highly unlikely they went anywhere as deep as they should, but isn't it convenient for them that we can't check to see if I am right or wrong? To see if they really did something or not? What kind of transparency is this? 4) I have no fear whatsover of this happening. You on the other hand seems to be afraid of something... 1. Who CCP bans is none of your business, nor should it ever be. If they decide to release the character names of the people who have been banned, it's going to be on their terms, not yours. For a company to entrust their analytical and investigative data to you under the assumption that you are any sort of competent to understand or properly handle this data, is nothing short of completely absurd. You know nothing about how their system works, what data they have, how the data is extracted, how the data is processed, formatted, what tools (if any) are used to extract this, methods of datamining utilized, investigative procedures, meetings, IA audits of staffmembers, workload management, people involved and so forth. Nor is it any of your business. 2. So do the math yourself, here let me get you started..make an average from the information you have on how many reactors were at each POS, then figure out how much 1 reactor produced, multiply by the reactor average, then multiply by the amount of POS'es, then multiply that with a reasonable average of how much ferrogel was sold in a day (hint, use the market tool), then add as much time as you want, and finally decide on an average price ferrogel was sold at and simply multiply that by the number you have on how much was sold. There you go. 3. So you're proposing you're a much more thorough investigator than CCP? May we please see some sort of proof? Previous work and such you know. Give us a little transparency to work with here so we can see for ourselves. Low blow you say? You're right it was, but you go by the assumption that CCP is lying even though you have no data to prove that, and therefor I proclaim you to be full of it until proven otherwise. 4. No fear? That's good..I know if I were you, I'd be concerned about my "CCP is lying, so therefor CCP must give me data that they produced, handled and edited, because then it's believable" approach. Oh well..
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:03:00 - [2346] Originally by: Cadela Fria I wasn't aware CCP was a bank, and for you information, banks do trust their employees, otherwise they wouldn't hire them. Keeping tracking of the money by "counting" it, which is mostly done digitally, is because if they didn't..they wouldn't be a bank..simple as that. It's not a question of trust, it's a question of doing what you're supposed to do, to run your business. The fact it is not a bank is irrelevant. It is a company and has employees. The question is, should it believe on them unconditionally or do what it should to assure they are not cheating, or stealing from them, or just sleeping at the job instead of working? Should it trust in their employees to the point of not watching them? Karath Piki thinks it should, do you? Is he your alt, is that why you are so angry? Quote: Banks work primarily by dealing with external investors(you), projects, markets and so forth..if they didn't, they wouldn't profit very much, if at all. And when left unchecked, what happens is what we saw this year. Investors trusted them, governments trusted them, a lot f people who gave them money trusted them, and they messed up, badly. Reminds you of something? Quote: If you want to make this comparison you should've really considered it thoroughly first. Here is why: This will be fun. Quote: 1. There is a large organisation, sponsors and what have you that fund, run and manages athletic events, and also makes sure everyone plays by the same rules, dope testing people and so on. 2. Then theres athletes that all compete against each other in the 'arena' set by the organisation and sponsors, given a bunch a rules they must follow and sign contracts etc. I'm going to let you figure out for yourself which one of those 2 is CCP, and which one is the player..Etho, you're peeing on your own two shoes. Oh CCP will be the sponsor at the very moment they start to make Eve free for us to play, you can rest assured. But even if it did I don't see the link between CCP negligence in checking its employees, which it should do and any of your points. On the other hand, I see a clear link between a commite that monitors its athletes and a company monitoring its employees for irregularities. All analogies are inacurate in at least some aspect, but some are useful and have some merit, yours just fails to deliver, I am sorry. Oh and it is very ironic when a person who calls his character "cadela fria" talks about peeing in shoes... Quote: Nobody is saying this isn't a big deal and that it isn't bad. Of course it is...That's why 70(!) accounts have been banned. I won't profess to be a mathmatical genius here, as this is pretty basic, but 1 account costs $15 a month, times 70 that's $1050 a month. Times 12 that's $12.600 a year, that CCP won't be getting now because of this. Maybe that doesn't sound like much to you, but to a company that has an economic plan to adhere to, this is bad. The poster whom I answered said indeed that it wasn't a big deal. To him 70 accounts in a universe of hundred thousands is not relevant. It seems that what they did, the amount of money they accumulated, is completely irrelevant as long as they are just "a few". And 12.5K dolars a month is ridiculous to CCP. It collects around thousand times this amount per month in subscriptions. The negative impact in their image if it did nothing on the otehr hand, after a player revealed what had happened would cost them much more. And you know what is funny. By being negligent they actually profitted, because the amount of money they woud have spent to do the things right is bigger than the amount of money required to put a patch on it and say everything is right now. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Mass Attack	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:04:00 - [2347] 3. So you're proposing you're a much more thorough investigator than CCP? May we please see some sort of proof? Previous work and such you know. Give us a little transparency to work with here so we can see for ourselves. Low blow you say? You're right it was, but you go by the assumption that CCP is lying even though you have no data to prove that, and therefor I proclaim you to be full of it until proven otherwise. Um. Is it really necessary for anyone at this point to prove they are better at investigating than CCP? I think we can all agree that anyone not in a vegetative state would at least be on par with CCP at investigating.. say just about anything.
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:07:00 - [2348] Really need to know the alliances involved. There are already some named. Name them and shread them to pieces. cough kiaeddz cough
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:09:00 - [2349] Originally by: Gargamell Smurf perhaps someone has already addressed this, but i am just a bit confused by all the people here babbling about this "exploit" going on for 4 years. WTF!?!? 4 years ago, THERE WERE NO POS and THERE WAS NO MOON MINING! NONE OF THAT EXISTED 4 YEARS AGO! DUH! uhhhh starbases came out in Nov 2004 ...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:09:00 - [2350] Originally by: QTab my dear etho I hope this letter finds you in better physical health than it does your mental health. I do not frequent the forums admitedly but I cought up a bit on this particular thread as it peaked my intrest and I found myself horrified by your particular attempts to derail the discussion about an investigation into an exploit, to something wich can only be called conspiracy theory insanity spun out of gross misinterpritation of announcements, circular logic, misquotes to history and impressive levels of paranoia. (I was particularly impressed with how you managed to read "yes it's most probably been possible since 2004" as "yes we've known about it the whole time and haven't cared till now") The agreement CCP makes with it's subscribers legally prohibits them from revealing what accounts/characters/players are found in violation of the EULA it is a standard in all such agreements from all online gaming companies and alot of other companies as well for example development companys, security companys, healthcare companys, insurance companys, financial companys all do the same thing for one single reason, the expectation of privacy. I doubt very much that you'd appreciate it if I asked CCP to give me your registration details so I could phone you up in the middle of the night to impress you with the vocabulary of profanitys I might like to call you. that presumably is the only reason you ask for said information because you cannot use it in any way to confirm any bans of accounts because the characters on banned accounts are deleted from the database, and even if they weren't you would need access to the DB that no player/customer should ever have. I trust CCP's IA not because I'm a fanboy but because an indipendant IA person went over their procedures and said he was impressed by the mechanisms they had installed(this person being a member of the 1st CSM and as such a representative of the players and not the companys) and that you think the only options are complete trust or complete distrust is appaling, what you are missing is trust in established procedures, bank tellers have their counting double checked, atheletes are drug tested, companys have IA departments. CCP has gone a step further than merely having an IA department, they've installed a council of democraticly chosen customer representatives who not only fullfill the role of being the players voice to CCP but also have been allowed to go over their IA procedures and the current CSM was brought in on this particular scandal right from the start. I wish you good health Yrs. QTab Thank you for your good wishes, my kind sir. Unfortunatelly I can't thank you for your lies. But I can enlighten you! Which I see as my obligation after such a kind post. It is the minimum I can do, really. The EULA has nothing to do with Characters, which are CCPs property and have cannot be considered in any legal or even sensible way as "user information". Furthermore to prove your point you use the disclosure of my RL name, my phone number etc, which are the most blatant example of "user information". See the problem? This has a name, it is called fallacy. I suggest you google for it, I am quite sure your life will change after this. Have a good night and enjoy Eve, my good sir. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Xonox Galatorg Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:10:00 - [2351] Originally by: QTab ow ... two etho slapping posts in a row .... I do apologise I was about to also then i refreshed the page. Can someone(Etho) seriously think that way? You sure he's not a troll? If he's for real he does indeed have some serious misconceptions and sounds like a 16 year old that thinks he knows everything. -Xonox Pulsar Combat Supplies, Director of Production and POS
chicagogam	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:11:00 - [2352] i'm feeling unusually forgiving of ccp for some reason :) 1) i guess something just has to slip through the cracks once and time can zip on by for quite a while and it might never be noticed again unless there are repeat warnings. 2) they don't give ALL the juicy details true...but then i'm kinda impressed that they do give any details at all which might be considered unflattering..maybe it's from being from the US :) 3) some kind of cosmic audit system would be nice if just to point out sums that don't add up and unofficial white holes of goodies...some kind of backoffice computing i guess :) but then i found out that our own irs can't tell when someone's social security number doesn't match their name....you'd think that would be a pretty easy test for computers too... well as we might be sending our 4th(?) governor to jail, i can only hope and assume iceland has cleaner practices :) they seem pretty concerned about it...or maybe their spin doctors are even better than ours ;p i think if there's a sudden change in the economy it might be jarring for some...let's have a multi billion isk bailout!
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:21:00 - [2353] Originally by: Cadela Fria 1. Who CCP bans is none of your business, nor should it ever be. If they decide to release the character names of the people who have been banned, it's going to be on their terms, not yours. For a company to entrust their analytical and investigative data to you under the assumption that you are any sort of competent to understand or properly handle this data, is nothing short of completely absurd. You know nothing about how their system works, what data they have, how the data is extracted, how the data is processed, formatted, what tools (if any) are used to extract this, methods of datamining utilized, investigative procedures, meetings, IA audits of staffmembers, workload management, people involved and so forth. Nor is it any of your business. So you say. I disagree. See I happen to pay for them to play this nice game. I consider very much my business to be able to know if the problem that appear on it are fixed. This one in specific requires a lot of fixing and complex ones. It is in my best interest to know if they did it at least in a reasonably effective way. Quote: 2. So do the math yourself, here let me get you started..make an average from the information you have on how many reactors were at each POS, then figure out how much 1 reactor produced, multiply by the reactor average, then multiply by the amount of POS'es, then multiply that with a reasonable average of how much ferrogel was sold in a day (hint, use the market tool), then add as much time as you want, and finally decide on an average price ferrogel was sold at and simply multiply that by the number you have on how much was sold. There you go. And what exactly I should get from this? Do you know for how much time each of the 178 have been working to get the correct figure of how much was earned from duped materials? And even if you did, do you know what happened to the money? Where did it do? And the materials? And the T2 produced for free? Can you trace it and assure me it was destroyed by knowing that there was 178 POSes? If you do please enlighten us. Quote: 3. So you're proposing you're a much more thorough investigator than CCP? May we please see some sort of proof? Previous work and such you know. Give us a little transparency to work with here so we can see for ourselves. Low blow you say? You're right it was, but you go by the assumption that CCP is lying even though you have no data to prove that, and therefor I proclaim you to be full of it until proven otherwise. No, I am nothing special. But on the other hand I am all the rest of the Eve community (or at least those who care and will put themselves to the task) are more throughout investigators than a company whose interests lie in not finding too much. Really it is not rocket science. Not even remotely like it. Quote: 4. No fear? That's good..I know if I were you, I'd be concerned about my "CCP is lying, so therefor CCP must give me data that they produced, handled and edited, because then it's believable" approach. Oh well.. As I say, I am not worried in the least. You on the other hand... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:23:00 - [2354] Originally by: Xonox Galatorg Originally by: QTab ow ... two etho slapping posts in a row .... I do apologise I was about to also then i refreshed the page. Can someone(Etho) seriously think that way? You sure he's not a troll? If he's for real he does indeed have some serious misconceptions and sounds like a 16 year old that thinks he knows everything. I don't know everything. I don't even have the names of the banned chars. See? Snd no I am not a troll. My posts happen to have content, yours on the other hand have... err... Troll accusations? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Aargh	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:31:00 - [2355] Either you believe that CCP are acting in good faith, or you do not. That's it. Asking for "proof" of action in a digital world they have total discretionary power over is the most insane thing ever. Let alone all these elaborate theories. You know why T20 went to such lengths to conceal his impact on EVE? Because he knew that if the rest of CCP caught him at it (people who are in every other alliance in game) they'd tear him a fresh *******. What suprises me about the whole T20 deal is that he's still at the company. I'd be curious as to how many people sit at the same table with him in the canteen though. If CCP want to cheat, here's a newsflash - THEY COULD AND WE'D NEVER FIND OUT. You either subscribe to the fact the system is basically fair or you stop subscribing. Quit with your whole "OMG, SOMEONE BLOWED UP TEH WORLD TRADE CENTRE WITH CONTROLLED EXPLOSIFS!!!" rationale.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:31:00 - [2356] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 04:33:02 Originally by: Etho Demerzel The fact it is not a bank is irrelevant. It is a company and has employees. The question is, should it believe on them unconditionally or do what it should to assure they are not cheating, or stealing from them, or just sleeping at the job instead of working? Should it trust in their employees to the point of not watching them? Karath Piki thinks it should, do you? Is he your alt, is that why you are so angry? I'm not angry at all, I'm simply proposing a counterpoint to your arguments, and no, sorry, I'm not sure who Karath Piki is, but they are not related to me. You used the bank very specifically as an example on counting money, and quite simply you were wrong. Yes, a bank should trust it's employees, otherwise theres no point in hiring them in the first place - I know I personally wouldn't want to work at a company that constantly treats me like criminal by looking over my shoulder all the time even though I haven't done anything wrong. Originally by: Etho Demerzel And when left unchecked, what happens is what we saw this year. Investors trusted them, governments trusted them, a lot f people who gave them money trusted them, and they messed up, badly. Reminds you of something? That's how all markets work. That's how all business works - That's how trade works..trust. If you don't trust people, you don't take any chances. If you don't take any chances, you don't earn any money. There is no other way..If you somehow think that by letting you into the loop it'd all be better, you're sorely mistaken. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Oh CCP will be the sponsor at the very moment they start to make Eve free for us to play, you can rest assured. But even if it did I don't see the link between CCP negligence in checking its employees, which it should do and any of your points. On the other hand, I see a clear link between a commite that monitors its athletes and a company monitoring its employees for irregularities. I see a link where the players are the athletes and the company is the one monitoring the players for irregularities. Try as you might, CCP is the organizer, we're the athletes. Originally by: Etho Demerzel All analogies are inacurate in at least some aspect, but some are useful and have some merit, yours just fails to deliver, I am sorry. Oh and it is very ironic when a person who calls his character "cadela fria" talks about peeing in shoes... You provided the analogy, I just made you aware of what you said. My example was just fine As for my name..is it that time already? "You don't agree with me so I'll insult you" My name has just as much to do with peeing as yours does. You're just the one currently peeing on your own two shoes Originally by: Etho Demerzel The poster whom I answered said indeed that it wasn't a big deal. To him 70 accounts in a universe of hundred thousands is not relevant. It seems that what they did, the amount of money they accumulated, is completely irrelevant as long as they are just "a few". And 12.5K dolars a month is ridiculous to CCP. It collects around thousand times this amount per month in subscriptions. The negative impact in their image if it did nothing on the otehr hand, after a player revealed what had happened would cost them much more. And you know what is funny. By being negligent they actually profitted, because the amount of money they woud have spent to do the things right is bigger than the amount of money required to put a patch on it and say everything is right now. Well, I will make no assumption about your abilities to make an economic plan for a company..but, this just isn't entirely right. edit - formatting :P
Aargh	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:33:00 - [2357] Addendum - the worst thing about this is that yet again, a number of Alliance Directors who weren't even in the relevant corp when this allegedly started are receiving rabid hatemail.
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:44:00 - [2358] You know....all the people crying foul and DEMANDING this or that from CCP. The real fricking funny part is....if these people demanded as much from their countries governments, we ALL might be in a hell of a lot better shape. But I guess its a whole lot easier to whine and cry and point fingers on the internets than it is to do in real life. Where you have REAL consequences. But hey, who am I to inturrupt kids temper-tantrums.....carry on kiddies!
Titus R	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:46:00 - [2359] This is directed to all the MORONS who are putting up such a darn fuss about this. Apparently, you may have been involved in this process if you're making such a problem regarding the issue. If you knowingly profited from this exploit, then yes, you deserve your account to be banned. yes, i'm a carebear, yes i don't care what you say. Doing things the Right way isn't a wrong thing to do. Enough Said. P.S. Stop... Complaining... You... Children
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:48:00 - [2360] Originally by: Etho Demerzel So you say. I disagree. See I happen to pay for them to play this nice game. I consider very much my business to be able to know if the problem that appear on it are fixed. This one in specific requires a lot of fixing and complex ones. It is in my best interest to know if they did it at least in a reasonably effective way. You pay to play yes..unfortunately as you may not know, that's just about as far as that goes. It is actually quite a lot of information that you, me and everyone else gets from CCP, freely, that they aren't obligated to give us in the first place. If telling you that it's being investigated, fixed and taken care of, isn't goot enough for you..no amount of logs will make a difference, because it's the same people producing those logs that told you it's being fixed. Originally by: Etho Demerzel And what exactly I should get from this? Do you know for how much time each of the 178 have been working to get the correct figure of how much was earned from duped materials? And even if you did, do you know what happened to the money? Where did it do? And the materials? And the T2 produced for free? Can you trace it and assure me it was destroyed by knowing that there was 178 POSes? If you do please enlighten us. No, I don't know how long they've been in operation..nobody does yet. That's why they're still working on it - It may be something you aren't aware of, I won't assume either way, but..retrieving data of this magnitude, from over such a long period if theres no easy pre-built system to do so..is a VERY VERY slowly and painful task. Obviously I'm saying that based on assumptions..it doesn't seem very logical to me that they would have tools to encompass something so specific as this, unless they were counting on it happening, which they obviously weren't. Originally by: Etho Demerzel No, I am nothing special. But on the other hand I am all the rest of the Eve community (or at least those who care and will put themselves to the task) are more throughout investigators than a company whose interests lie in not finding too much. Really it is not rocket science. Not even remotely like it. So you're saying that IA has no interest in finding anything, even though it's primary function is to find something, anything..to piece the truth together. All I'm proposing is, that just because you wouldn't have an interest in finding too much if you were in their shoes, that doesn't mean that's how they look at it. Originally by: Etho Demerzel As I say, I am not worried in the least. You on the other hand... Me? Why would I be worried? I have no part in any of this other than reading this thread and participating in the discussion. The argument I put up was an example of your reasoning that left much to be desired.

Xonox Galatorg Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:50:00 - [2361] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Xonox Galatorg Originally by: QTab ow ... two etho slapping posts in a row .... I do apologise I was about to also then i refreshed the page. Can someone(Etho) seriously think that way? You sure he's not a troll? If he's for real he does indeed have some serious misconceptions and sounds like a 16 year old that thinks he knows everything. I don't know everything. I don't even have the names of the banned chars. See? Snd no I am not a troll. My posts happen to have content, yours on the other hand have... err... Troll accusations? I didn't say you know everything, I said you seem to think you do. And no, I'm not going to go through a come back with all sorts of rebuttals to everything you said to everything I disagree on, doing so is just not worth my time, although I must admit I'm about ready to. Your replies are worded as to get the person arguing back with you. I find it hard to believe that a person could seriously mean the things that you say. I can see where you are coming from but your reasoning is flawed and is that of a person who thinks they know everything. You do seem to be fairly intelligent and knowledgable, but how you think things work and how things actually work are two different things. -Xonox Pulsar Combat Supplies, Director of Production and POS
Drakko Bhai	Posted - 2008.12.20 04:52:00 - [2362] Wow, only going back to 2007? And CCP expects us to believe that when the culprits brag about it going on for longer? What a joke the PR department at CCP is.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:11:00 - [2363] Originally by: Cadela Fria You used the bank very specifically as an example on counting money, and quite simply you were wrong. Yes, a bank should trust it's employees, otherwise theres no point in hiring them in the first place - I know I personally wouldn't want to work at a company that constantly treats me like criminal by looking over my shoulder all the time even though I haven't done anything wrong. Quote: And exactly how I was wrong? I say a bank, as any company, shouldn't trust its emplyoees unconditionally? Do you contend this? I used the bank as an example on non inconditional trust to show how absurd Karath Piki idea od inconditional trust was. Care to show me where exactly the fact that a bank is a bank and CCP is not a bank makes inconditional trust acceptable in the last one while it is unacceptable in the former? Please show me how wrong I am. I am waiting. But please, do not repeat again that a bank shoudl trust its employees or it would have contracted them. This is not a dichotomy. Trust is not a boolean variable. There are degrees of trust. Quote: That's how all markets work. That's how all business works - That's how trade works..trust. If you don't trust people, you don't take any chances. If you don't take any chances, you don't earn any money. There is no other way..If you somehow think that by letting you into the loop it'd all be better, you're sorely mistaken. And that is why banks are now being regulated and audited all around the world. By letting someone into the loop, the government, which is a representative of the people that invest among others, all will be better. Quote: I see a link where the players are the athletes and the company is the one monitoring the players for irregularities. Try as you might, CCP is the organizer, we're the athletes. Quote: You provided the analogy, I just made you aware of what you said. My example was just fine Your example failed in providing any useful information to the discussion, or anything even remotely associated with it. Quote: As for my name..is it that time already? "You don't agree with me so I'll insult you" My name has just as much to do with peeing as yours does. You're just the one currently peeing on your own two shoes Hey I didn't mean it as a insult in any way. I just happen to speak Portuguese and found your expression very amusing given the name you chose for your char. If you feel offended by your chose name you shouldn't have chosen it in the first place. And lets not forget the one using scatologic expression here is you... Quote: Well, I will make no assumption about your abilities to make an economic plan for a company..but, this just isn't entirely right. Isn't it? Why? In which way 12.5K dollars can be considered a sizeable amount to CCP finances? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
GhostWolf007 Gallente The Knights of Gemini	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:19:00 - [2364] It doesn't surprise me at all. That's probably one of a dozen exploits yet to be discovered. Those who really suck playing online gaming must always feel a way to cheat to get ahead of everyone else. Play the game the way it was intended damn it! and stop with the damn hacks, cheats and exploits! You corn fed swines!.......Nuff said! II The Knights of Gemini Forums II "Give me back my Jet Can...or the Bunny gets it!
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:22:00 - [2365] Originally by: Cadela Fria You pay to play yes..unfortunately as you may not know, that's just about as far as that goes. It is actually quite a lot of information that you, me and everyone else gets from CCP, freely, that they aren't obligated to give us in the first place. If telling you that it's being investigated, fixed and taken care of, isn't good enough for you..no amount of logs will make a difference, because it's the same people producing those logs that told you it's being fixed. Maybe you are an expert in international law? If not you are assuming a lot. See, CCP has a lot of marketing over their game. In these nice advertisements, they promise a lot of things. In the blogs they posted after T20 they promised transparency. They made a lot of statements, that can and are considered propaganda. Many people stayed in the game because of such announcements. When a company publicly advertise something it has the legal obligation to deliver it. The failure to comply is even a fellony in many countries and can get people arrested for scam. Quote: No, I don't know how long they've been in operation..nobody does yet. That's why they're still working on it - It may be something you aren't aware of, I won't assume either way, but..retrieving data of this magnitude, from over such a long period if theres no easy pre-built system to do so..is a VERY VERY slowly and painful task. Obviously I'm saying that based on assumptions..it doesn't seem very logical to me that they would have tools to encompass something so specific as this, unless they were counting on it happening, which they obviously weren't. You were the one that said I already have the information I needed and that I do not needed anything else. I just pointed that I don't. Don't try to spin it off... Quote: So you're saying that IA has no interest in finding anything, even though it's primary function is to find something, anything..to piece the truth together. All I'm proposing is, that just because you wouldn't have an interest in finding too much if you were in their shoes, that doesn't mean that's how they look at it. The world is pragmatic, and money making companies are the most pragmatic of them all. It is against the interetss of the company to go deeper on things that may bring them bad publicity if they can manage to do with superficialities and propaganda. An investigative body that is payed by the company they should investigate is just silly... Quote: Me? Why would I be worried? I have no part in any of this other than reading this thread and participating in the discussion. The argument I put up was an example of your reasoning that left much to be desired. The argument you put is an example of most arguments you have put until now. But I still have hope you will improve. Lets see. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:24:00 - [2366] If I were CCP I'd say screw it, this is an internal matter and not even tell you what they have so far. CCP has been very forthcoming with what they are doing and what they know. I'm still reading a load of Coast to Coast - George Norrey worthy conspiracy theory crud coming from people here, proof that it doesn't matter what CCP does to show they are being up front. Some people here want to beat them up no matter what is done. I think the idea that CCP needs to let players run rampant through their data bases is ludicris. That would be absolutely the worst thing they could do. The information there is sensitive. Bottom line is this, if you don't trust this is now, or going to be handled correctly from here on, it's time to stop your whiny posts here and leave. Everyone else will be better off when you do. You all are starting to sound like shrewish fish wives.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:31:00 - [2367] Originally by: Xonox Galatorg I didn't say you know everything, I said you seem to think you do. And no, I'm not going to go through a come back with all sorts of rebuttals to everything you said to everything I disagree on, doing so is just not worth my time, although I must admit I'm about ready to. You don't find it worth do rebuttals about my arguments. On the other hand you find it very worth it to do observations about me, right? This does have a name, it is called trolling. You are in a discussion forum. In a thread that has a topic, which is not about me I can assure you. If everything you have to contribute to this topic are observations about a poster, you shouldn't bother to post at all. Quote: Your replies are worded as to get the person arguing back with you. I find it hard to believe that a person could seriously mean the things that you say. I can see where you are coming from but your reasoning is flawed and is that of a person who thinks they know everything. You do seem to be fairly intelligent and knowledgable, but how you think things work and how things actually work are two different things. It is easy to be just vague and say things like "your reasoning is flawed" without pointing any specifics whose validity and truth can be discussed. It is also pointless... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:34:00 - [2368] Originally by: Barbara Nichole If I were CCP I'd say screw it, this is an internal matter and not even tell you what they have so far. CCP has been very forthcoming with what they are doing and what they know. I'm still reading a load of Coast to Coast - George Norrey worthy conspiracy theory crud coming from people here, proof that it doesn't matter what CCP does to show they are being up front. Some people here want to beat them up no matter what is done. I think the idea that CCP needs to let players run rampant through their data bases is ludicris. That would be absolutely the worst thing they could do. The information there is sensitive. Bottom line is this, if you don't trust this is now, or going to be handled correctly from here on, it's time to stop your whiny posts here and leave. Everyone else will be better off when you do. You all are starting to sound like shrewish fish wives. If CCP had done just that that would be much more honest on their part. But unfortunately it would produce bad results for them. But on the bright side (at least for them) they are smarter than this. And no, I won't leave. But, if you my posts so much disgust you, you may. You don't really need to read them, you know. There are even plugins for browsers to filter this kind of thing. Stay well. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Sanika DeCroix	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:42:00 - [2369] It's a game people :) Even if they provided the names, data, or what have you, I'm sure you can find better things to do with your life :)
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:44:00 - [2370] Originally by: Sanika DeCroix It's a game people :) Even if they provided the names, data, or what have you, I'm sure you can find better things to do with your life :) So we are wasting our time right? And what exactly are you doing by posting here to tell us this? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Corpse Female	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:08:00 - [2371] People want names ???? ROFL, wanna be internet spaceship gangsters, pretending to prepare to deliver their own brand of justice. All they need are the names, something that won't/can't/shouldn't happen, so we will never get to see the true extent of their almighty oog powers. Reasoning won't work with that mindset. Can't work, won't work, don't try. They can/will only reply with lame queries and questions and insults. Not happy with ccps bannings and POS removals? What do you wont? Jailtime? Its just an internet space game. Banned charachters -- they played their high risk way and lost - big time. CCP's job is done imho, an anyone that can reason will no doubt agree --- ie noone is going to be doing that exploit again. Fixed.
Niko Takahashi	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:10:00 - [2372] Originally by: Aargh Either you believe that CCP are acting in good faith, or you do not. That's it. Asking for "proof" of action in a digital world they have total discretionary power over is the most insane thing ever. Let alone all these elaborate theories. You know why T20 went to such lengths to conceal his impact on EVE? Because he knew that if the rest of CCP caught him at it (people who are in every other alliance in game) they'd tear him a fresh *****. What suprises me about the whole T20 deal is that he's still at the company. I'd be curious as to how many people sit at the same table with him in the canteen though. If CCP want to cheat, here's a newsflash - THEY COULD AND WE'D NEVER FIND OUT. You either subscribe to the fact the system is basically fair or you stop subscribing. Quit with your whole "OMG, SOMEONE BLOWED UP TEH WORLD TRADE CENTRE WITH CONTROLLED EXPLOSIFS!!!" rationale. This Its a question of trust and if if you like the game enough to go through this. From what my persona experience is iam sceptical will it stop me from playing hmmm no. They made a dam good game :D. But compared to other companies they are actually now doing quite a lot to restore my faith. So its like this you either go on or not in case you are **ed enough to leave .. CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF :D Fly safe folks
KilljoyChaos	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:13:00 - [2373] This went from CCP telling us that they are trying to work the problem out to people fighting with each other over issues that they dont even know about. You cant say any thing bad about CCP unless your part of them and know they are doing a "bad job". Chill out and wait for more info from them. Obviously they arent goin to tell us anymore than what they know. You expect them to just magically have the anwsers to problems that they prolly didnt expect to have. Wow you emo weirdos really do need to either get a life outside of EVE or find a different game that doesnt have any problems... wait I dont think there is a game like that, dang. And we post stuff like this telling people they are wasting their time because you are wasting your time and ours when we try to read thru this stuff and all we get blah blah blah we hate each other between people that, for one thing should be glad they did get some response from CCP and the fact that in the end of all this emo crap you will still live. So wtf is your problem? Calm down it is just a game, its not real. Come back to Earth for like two seconds and you'll realize that.
Mass Attack	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:20:00 - [2374] Oh yeah, and on the new Eve server, no CCP employees are allowed to play.
Minny Sky	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:28:00 - [2375] All I can say at this point is wow.
Jon Rocks Amarr Rothana Heavy Industries The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:42:00 - [2376] WOW is right. I clicked to last page and tried reading a few pages back and my eyes started bleeding at all the rubbish.. This thread as gone to the toilet. JR
Aglibol	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:47:00 - [2377] I'm so about to get flamed, so before I start working this post, I'm going to outline what we obviously know: 1) People are greedy. 2) People will get every advantage they can, usually. 3) CCP has had some issues in the past with honest GM's Yes people were getting an unfair advantage, and that sucks, but they are paying for it now. To think that CCP as a whole is always trying to scam and let people cheat is a bit paranoid, me thinks. I'm sure after the last fiasco there were policies put in place to correct abusing behavior on employees behalf. Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself if this is something that you can tolerate in a game, and if it isn't cancel your subscription. Other than that, do you honestly think that your ,complaining really matters to CCP? It doesn't as long as you're shelling that 15 dollars a month. Now say they dropped a thousand member in a month, they'd stand up and say, "oh crap". Ultimately, all I'm saying is complaining is a huge waste of your time, nothing is going to change.
Oberst McClain	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:56:00 - [2378] Hello, it is sad, that there is a exploit, but ccp has step in at the moment they know about the exploit and that is good. And i think it where mention befor, it is EvE not a fusion reaktor, and here even Fusionreaktor software have bugs.... The only thing we can hope is CCP take aktions, to prevent it happend again. To wine in forms about it make no sense.
oodin Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:12:00 - [2379] 80 pages i cant go trough all those so can someone give me names? I WANT NAMES DAMMMIT
raven415 Caldari Special Projects Corp	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:19:00 - [2380] I see no need to post the names to make the exploiters more famous. the amounts might be cool to know but as to who, why reward them with fame.

Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:20:00 - [2381] I dont mean to sound ignorant. But could someone explain to me what exactly has been going on? -Kaiden Kaiden Exeider - CSM Candidate
POS Trader	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:26:00 - [2382] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider I dont mean to sound ignorant. But could someone explain to me what exactly has been going on? -Kaiden LOL LOL LOL LOL Oh wait, LOL LOL LOL Are you serious??
oodin Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:28:00 - [2383] Originally by: raven415 I see no need to post the names to make the exploiters more famous. the amounts might be cool to know but as to who, why reward them with fame. fame? its a online game and theire banned ffs,so who cares about them..but i still want names
Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:29:00 - [2384] all Ive been reading is, there is a starbase exploit. but i haven't been able to find how it was done and what is being exploited. so could someone explain it to me please. Kaiden Exeider - CSM Candidate
oodin Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:29:00 - [2385] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider I dont mean to sound ignorant. But could someone explain to me what exactly has been going on? -Kaiden someone solved the energy crisis by making machines run forever without using any energy and now the oil barons are mad
Kimi Nogura Caldari Tech 2 Holdings Limited Tech Holdings Limited	Posted - 2008.12.20 07:41:00 - [2386] Data Mining this volume of information for this extended a period takes a lot of time. People really do need to learn some patience here. Over 70 bans in the first week is probably just the beginning of the drama to come folks. Now CCP has to rinse and repeat all the way back to 2004. Then they have to do account linking searches for all accounts that are email linked or physical address or credit card information linked. Then they have to do IP Login links to match for related accounts from the same offenders and multiple RL ppl using shared accounts to login. Its not a easy process and is very time consuming. Then they will probably scan action logs of the banned to see who did what that was suspicious after the exploit was announced to find some "after the fact" accomplices that might have transfered assets or assisted in doing it. Are they gonna be able to nail everyone who participated ? I seriously doubt it. Are they trying hard ? I would like to believe so Are they not gonna name and shame no matter how much ppl ask ? Yep In the end all that really matters is will they achieve the restoration of a level playing field and removal of as many of the exploiters as they can.
Tvaishk Suzuki Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.12.20 08:24:00 - [2387] Originally by: Kimi Nogura Data Mining this volume of information for this extended a period takes a lot of time. People really do need to learn some patience here. Over 70 bans in the first week is probably just the beginning of the drama to come folks. Now CCP has to rinse and repeat all the way back to 2004. Then they have to do account linking searches for all accounts that are email linked or physical address or credit card information linked. Then they have to do IP Login links to match for related accounts from the same offenders and multiple RL ppl using shared accounts to login. Its not a easy process and is very time consuming. Then they will probably scan action logs of the banned to see who did what that was suspicious after the exploit was announced to find some "after the fact" accomplices that might have transfered assets or assisted in doing it. Are they gonna be able to nail everyone who participated ? I seriously doubt it. Are they trying hard ? I would like to believe so Are they not gonna name and shame no matter how much ppl ask ? Yep In the end all that really matters is will they achieve the restoration of a level playing field and removal of as many of the exploiters as they can. One of the best posts in the hole dam thread. Wish I could of been able to say that myself, at it just seems some much that many of your are witch hunting for the soul reason that you like to stare into the fire at the end. post above Signed o/ --- Lieutenant, Mixed Metaphor Appliance Man
Innocent II	Posted - 2008.12.20 08:26:00 - [2388] I read the link. This is enough for me to stop posting and give the keyboard back to my friend, this is not enough for me to pay more RL money, maybe this will change if CCP can show they are hard workers at killing cheats and fixing EvE. I will not be seeing the forums for this so CCP will have to show this in a clear way to the whole world for me to see it.
Warrio Southern Cross Incorporated	Posted - 2008.12.20 08:41:00 - [2389] 2387th!! \o/ Way to go CCP! Cheats getting banned is always a creator of lulz. sXe
Hagan Sirius Gallente Monkey Universe Corporation Monkey Religion	Posted - 2008.12.20 09:06:00 - [2390] Originally by: Innocent II Edited by: Innocent II on 20/12/2008 08:28:27 I read the link. This is enough for me to stop posting and give the keyboard back to my friend, this is not enough for me to pay more RL money, maybe this will change if CCP can show they are hard workers at killing cheats and fixing EvE. I will not be seeing the forums for this so CCP will have to show this in a clear way to the whole world for me to see it. Question is how You can be satisfied, what CCP must to do, to give to people feelings "its all OK now". I see here alot of paranoic posts "They are evil, They are lieing". But how CCP can proof themself? Maybe some names and after that some angry mob with torches and forks can make peoples satisfied, also maybe some GM blood at the end can make those people happy and satisfied - but only for few seconds. I dont want to know how bad some peoples must be frustrated in RL, when they are so frustrated here. Sorry for my english.

TweakBoy	Posted - 2008.12.20 09:09:00 - [2391] Well this makes perfect sense to me. Everytime I petition something I get the same answer... "No errors in server side log" Maybe I need to consider more carefully
Jedziah The Bastards	Posted - 2008.12.20 09:17:00 - [2392] Originally by: Kaiden Exeider all Ive been reading is, there is a starbase exploit. but i haven't been able to find how it was done and what is being exploited. so could someone explain it to me please. From what I have read around a multitude of forums, the POS bug essentially incorporated an issue where the owner/s of the POS were able to shut down an input silo after a short period of time running. The standard response for the system would be for the entire chain to stop, however the rest of the reaction chain would continue to run, hence creating an abundance of reacted materials such as Ferrogel without any input reactants. I am shocked that those involved were able to keep this under wraps for so long. In many ways, some Kudos has to go to them for the period of time they kept it running, but CCP also have to be commended for swiftly serving the correct line of action once the exploit was made aware to their GM's. It looks like supply for the current Eve market is going to fall pretty rapidly once the large amounts of complex materials find their way off the market, hopefully the backlash in T2 price increase will not be too sharp. -Jed
Zey Nadar Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 10:02:00 - [2393] Edited by: Zey Nadar on 20/12/2008 10:03:53 It is not allowed to discuss the exploit as to explain how it works.. Unless you want a ban or something. About the update: I am happy that CCP is giving out information about what its doing and how the research about the exploit is going, as transparency creates trust.
El Kaposo Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.12.20 10:43:00 - [2394] i just hope the concerned offenders didn't see it coming and invested those ill gotten fortunes ingame. it did damage the game economy and the effects probably will last a while, but i would really dislike them having made this a business with rl consequences. several trillion isk which is spoken about, thats easily a 6 figure dollar amount. that this conversion is still taken place, even though not allowed is evident with all the farming. well, you can ban them, and take their virtual toys. but what if they have already crossed into real life assets? i don't think the arm of justice can be as far reaching and maybe, just maybe, some of them are quietly laughing into themselves, looking at a fat bank account. i for one will be curious to see what the investigation brings about, although i am not sure if the community will get all the information they might want to have, such as if this issue has gone into isk conversion as well.
Liza la'fabre Gallente Keep It Simple Stupid	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:06:00 - [2395] Pfffft what's the fuss. Can i have there stuff ?
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:10:00 - [2396] Sorting this thing out is in CCPs own best interest. I'm confident that they will dig through as far as humanly possible. When they are through, and tell us "Hey folks, we're through and banned everyone involved.", I, for my part, am satisfied. We won't get the names, or even corp / alliance names, but I respect CCP privacy guidelines. Some of the players will (and can't possibly) ever be satisfied with any response of CCP. Pitty for them, their overall negative attitude will surely not improve their game or life experience.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:14:00 - [2397] Originally by: Etho Demerzel So you say. I disagree. See I happen to pay for them to play this nice game. Exactly. You are a customer. That's it. Nothing more. You can't walk in to your hypothetical bank and demand a list of employees who are slack, or a list of customers who have had their accounts closed. If you don't like the service your bank provides, or you don't trust them, then you get to close your account and move to a different one. Same here. You have a serious ego problem. You are not as important as you think you are. You are entitled to the information that CCP decides to give you, and nothing more. The things you ask for will not do anything to change the in-game situation, it will make no improvements, and as we have already seen it will never be enough for you. Like all customers your power is your ability to vote with your wallet. You don't get to run the company, or demand they run their business how you want. Get over yourself. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:16:00 - [2398] Originally by: QTab I hope this letter finds you in better physical health than it does your mental health. The agreement CCP makes with it's subscribers legally prohibits them from revealing what accounts/characters/players are found in violation of the EULA it is a standard in all such agreements from all online gaming companies and alot of other companies as well for example development companys, security companys, healthcare companys, insurance companys, financial companys all do the same thing for one single reason, the expectation of privacy. I doubt very much that you'd appreciate it if I asked CCP to give me your registration details so I could phone you up in the middle of the night to impress you with the vocabulary of profanitys I might like to call you. that presumably is the only reason you ask for said information because you cannot use it in any way to confirm any bans of accounts because the characters on banned accounts are deleted from the database, and even if they weren't you would need access to the DB that no player/customer should ever have. lol. That is not what some players want or want to do with the information, nor the reason we want it. If you could link the part in EULA where it says that Character names (i.e. QTab - not your REAL NAME or personal details) is not the property of CCP like everything else in the game then please do. If you have signed or agreed to such a EULA where you have any kind of control over what they do with their in-game content in relation to your non-RL information I'd be very interested in seeing it.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:23:00 - [2399] Originally by: Avon Exactly. You are a customer. That's it. Nothing more. You can't walk in to your hypothetical bank and demand a list of employees who are slack, or a list of customers who have had their accounts closed. If you don't like the service your bank provides, or you don't trust them, then you get to close your account and move to a different one. Same here. You have a serious ego problem. You are not as important as you think you are. You are entitled to the information that CCP decides to give you, and nothing more. The things you ask for will not do anything to change the in-game situation, it will make no improvements, and as we have already seen it will never be enough for you. Like all customers your power is your ability to vote with your wallet. You don't get to run the company, or demand they run their business how you want. Get over yourself. I don't think anyone is under any illusion that what we say has much sway. Certainly not on an individual basis. Once again, we realise that CCP can do as they so wish, it's their game - they reveal what they want to, make any changes they want to. We do indeed ultimately vote with our wallets - yet as subscribers are still entitled to voice opinions - one of which is that the names should be revealed. If CCP don't like that opinion, or it's subscribers voicing them, then fine. Moderate the posts and/or start banning players for speaking out. It shouldn't really concern you or I so much what Etho says, the same with you not being concerned so much for my opinions. Ultimately, it is for CCP to work out if public opinion one way or another is likely to affect their bottom line and act as they see fit.
Jonnten Nichs	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:23:00 - [2400] Originally by: QTab ow ... two etho slapping posts in a row .... I do apologise Please don't. He probably needs about 10 more and that will only satisfy the rest of the mob and do nothing to him.

DeadTwin	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:27:00 - [2401] all i want to know is if these large number of characters and P.o.s's were just wiped off the face of the multiverse, or actually like... concorded, lol seige concord, and a concord for every player before ban. and if so... pictures?
Jonnten Nichs	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:32:00 - [2402] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov You know....all the people crying foul and DEMANDING this or that from CCP. The real fricking funny part is....if these people demanded as much from their countries governments, we ALL might be in a hell of a lot better shape. But I guess its a whole lot easier to whine and cry and point fingers on the internets than it is to do in real life. Where you have REAL consequences. Fantastic point. Unfortunately, the key diff is that it's a much smaller audience (CCP vs legislative bodies) and has basiclly one area of contact (forums vs emails to each legislator) and thus more likely to be heard. Still, all of us would be better off if we made the effort I bet.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:51:00 - [2403] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov You know....all the people crying foul and DEMANDING this or that from CCP. The real fricking funny part is....if these people demanded as much from their countries governments, we ALL might be in a hell of a lot better shape. But I guess its a whole lot easier to whine and cry and point fingers on the internets than it is to do in real life. Where you have REAL consequences. But hey, who am I to inturrupt kids temper-tantrums.....carry on kiddies! Originally by: Arlenna Molatov You know....all the people crying foul and DEMANDING this or that... But hey, who am I to inturrupt kids temper-tantrums.....carry on kiddies! That's EXACTLY the response I get from my local representatives and government! Just goes to show that the two things really are the same, which proves your post to contain a terrible irony doesn't it?
God GirlFriend	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:57:00 - [2404] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Etho Demerzel So you say. I disagree. See I happen to pay for them to play this nice game. Exactly. You are a customer. That's it. Nothing more. You can't walk in to your hypothetical bank and demand a list of employees who are slack, or a list of customers who have had their accounts closed. If you don't like the service your bank provides, or you don't trust them, then you get to close your account and move to a different one. Same here. You have a serious ego problem. You are not as important as you think you are. You are entitled to the information that CCP decides to give you, and nothing more. The things you ask for will not do anything to change the in-game situation, it will make no improvements, and as we have already seen it will never be enough for you. Like all customers your power is your ability to vote with your wallet. You don't get to run the company, or demand they run their business how you want. Get over yourself. maybe where you live, but some places liek hier you have the legal right to request any information about any person found guilty of any legal infraction and there is obligation to deliver you this information.
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:04:00 - [2405] so many pages personally i couldnt give a **** about whoever got banned and what they were doing, its nothing to do with me if someone else gets rich nor would i care if a gm was involved i don't trust ccp that much anyways.
Captain Ortega	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:09:00 - [2406] Here's what I think, and I'll probably get things like "you're just another BoB alt!" or whatnot: If you were all as angry at CCP as you perceive yourselves to be, then stop giving them your money and quit playing. It's that simple. I play this game because I have fun playing it. I can be a carebear, a pirate, a trader...just about anything. What others do when it doesn't affect me has no meaning to me whatsoever. People got banned? Who cares? All I care about is my accounts didn't get banned and I can continue to keep playing. The problem I see here is everyone expects CCP to be God and flawless. Newsflash: they make mistakes like you and me. After all, they're only human. I believe in good faith that CCP is doing everything they can to resolve this issue, and truthfully, I could care less if they gave me a list of names or alliances that were involved. As long as I have something to shoot at, then I'm happy. So all you people looking to get in on the latest "dramabomb," don't come in here with your anger and saying RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE, I hate CCP! GRRR! Really, if you're THAT angry, quit playing EVE and go play WoW or something because you're obviously not mature enough to handle the fact that even the smartest people can make mistakes. So, get over yourselves and your egoes, and either play or don't. I choose to keep playing. It's my decision. Ultimately, you decide...So which is it? A. Keep playing B. Reactivate some old accounts C. Quit playing
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:16:00 - [2407] Only thing that I'm **ed off is that I didn't found this one "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"**
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:23:00 - [2408] ..I just wanted my name in an epic thread.
Exaga Gallente Nimbus Corporation Orange Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:34:00 - [2409] Respect to CCP for giving us the heads-up on their preliminary findings during, what must be, the biggest investigation in ANY computer games history. Glad to hear none of the CCP staff or CSM members were involved. Looking forward to more disclosure. Especially looking forward to CCP putting a sorry end to a multitude of bulls**t rumours and predictions made in this mammoth thread! CCP may have made mistakes in the past but they're only human, just like everybody else. They're doing it right now so let them get on with it and await the outcome.
Captain Ortega	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:36:00 - [2410] Originally by: Exaga Respect to CCP for giving us the heads-up on their preliminary findings during, what must be, the biggest investigation in ANY computer games history. Glad to hear none of the CCP staff or CSM members were involved. Looking forward to more disclosure. Especially looking forward to CCP putting a sorry end to a multitude of bulls**t rumours and predictions made in this mammoth thread! CCP may have made mistakes in the past but they're only human, just like everybody else. They're doing it right now so let them get on with it and await the outcome. Thank you. Glad to some people aren't looking for people to hang.

Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:48:00 - [2411] everyone that had a finger in this is getting the ban? sure hope so. for a single server game their actions could have done far worse than what it did. Please, jump into traffic
Xarosa	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:54:00 - [2412] Originally by: Gonada everyone that had a finger in this is getting the ban? sure hope so. for a single server game their actions could have done far worse than what it did. ...and all acc's linked to those chars who were involved are banned too. If it was my decision, I'd ban them so hard their even their ancestors wouldn't be able to register an account! -)(-
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:59:00 - [2413] Thank you very much for the recenent update. I am looking forward to further reports. Cheers Tal
SlushMeister	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:59:00 - [2414] omg bbq pwn could this mean we're on the brink of an EVE-wide economic RECESSION?!?!?! starts saving up his bread and canning all his food The next few years might be tough!
Venomae Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:13:00 - [2415] You whiners are just jealous that you couldn't figure out this exploit and couldn't make isk from nothing. Poor guys.
Saebeth Khan	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:20:00 - [2416] Originally by: Captain Ortega Here's what I think, and I'll probably get things like "you're just another BoB alt!" or whatnot: If you were all as angry at CCP as you perceive yourselves to be, then stop giving them your money and quit playing. It's that simple. I play this game because I have fun playing it. I can be a carebear, a pirate, a trader...just about anything. What others do when it doesn't affect me has no meaning to me whatsoever. People got banned? Who cares? All I care about is my accounts didn't get banned and I can continue to keep playing. The problem I see here is everyone expects CCP to be God and flawless. Newsflash: they make mistakes like you and me. After all, they're only human. I believe in good faith that CCP is doing everything they can to resolve this issue, and truthfully, I could care less if they gave me a list of names or alliances that were involved. As long as I have something to shoot at, then I'm happy. So all you people looking to get in on the latest "dramabomb," don't come in here with your anger and saying RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE, I hate CCP! GRRR! Really, if you're THAT angry, quit playing EVE and go play WoW or something because you're obviously not mature enough to handle the fact that even the smartest people can make mistakes. So, get over yourselves and your egoes, and either play or don't. I choose to keep playing. It's my decision. Ultimately, you decide...So which is it? A. Keep playing B. Reactivate some old accounts C. Quit playing Beautifully put Ortega, I was going to post myself, then read yours and thought "the man has encapsulated my entire feelings on the situation". Rational and reasonable, if only there were more like you. 07 S.K.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:25:00 - [2417] Originally by: Etho Demerzel And exactly how was I wrong? I say a bank, as any company, shouldn't trust its emplyoees unconditionally? Do you contend this? I used the bank as an example on non unconditional trust to show how absurd Karath Piki's idea of unconditional trust was. Care to show me where exactly the fact that a bank is a bank and CCP is not a bank makes inconditional trust acceptable in the last one while it is unacceptable in the former? Please show me how wrong I am. I am waiting. But please, do not repeat again that a bank should trust its employees or it wouldn't have contracted them. This is not a dichotomy. Trust is not a boolean variable. There are degrees of trust. I already showed you how - It's very simple, and I'm going to repeat that a bank should trust it's employees or it wouldn't have hired them, because thats how it works. If they have ANY doubts..hiring someone just won't happen. I'm not going to debate pointless semantics with you regarding various vague definitions of trust, because the scenario is very specific in saying that you don't trust the employees and therefor they need to be investigated and the data presented to you and if applied to a bank, no one would want to work there, myself included - I have done nothing wrong and thus I don't want to be questioned and investigated, poked, prodded and harassed just cause you as a customer are paranoid. Originally by: Etho Demerzel And that is why banks are now being regulated and audited all around the world. By letting someone into the loop, the government, which is a representative of the people that invest among others, all will be better. That 'someone' is almost always hired by the company itself in many cases, hired to help making sure that everything adds up. The government you say? reprensentative of the people? That's funny I was under the impression that most people didn't trust their government and in many cases get screwed by it cause it abuses it's power..If that's the case, which it is, it seems like a very bad example. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Your example failed in providing any useful information to the discussion, or anything even remotely associated with it. This is a pointless thing to be throwing back and forth, and won't ever be concluded on whos right and whos wrong..so I'll just say "whatever", and leave it at that. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Hey I didn't mean it as a insult in any way. I just happen to speak Portuguese and found your expression very amusing given the name you chose for your char. If you feel offended by your chosen name you shouldn't have chosen it in the first place. And lets not forget the one using scatologic expressions here is you... My name means "cold female dog" or "cold bleep", and has just as much to do with peeing as your name does, like I said before. Maybe you didn't know, but humans pee too..there is no reason why you had to make a remark about my name, that's frankly rather pathetic since it has no importance of relevance to you, me or this discussion. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Isn't it? Why? In which way 12.5K dollars/month can be considered a sizeable amount to CCP finances? Ask the company you work for ..if they aren't as big as CCP, scale the amount down to fit.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:29:00 - [2418] Originally by: God GirlFriend maybe where you live, but some places liek hier you have the legal right to request any information about any person found guilty of any legal infraction and there is obligation to deliver you this information. Sorry, which legal infraction are we talking about here? I thought it was some people cheating at a game? Now they are criminals? Jeez, what sort of jail time do you think they should do? Would you be happier if CCP published a list of every character, their associated alts, and any forum or in-game warnings and bans that they might have had? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
OFFT OFFT FORM LIFE	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:34:00 - [2419] I have played for years, traded for years in EVE. I can read this news and marvel at one thing:- EVE is complex enough and real enough to so many, that they think the impact of this is akin to real life. Shows only one thing ...EVE rocks ...it means something to people. I will feel no real impact , but the fact people care enough on this matter is testement to EVE being a game worth playing !
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:42:00 - [2420] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 13:45:35 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Maybe you are an expert in international law? If not you are assuming a lot. See, CCP has a lot of marketing over their game. In these nice advertisements, they promise a lot of things. In the blogs they posted after T20 they promised transparency. They made a lot of statements, that can and are considered propaganda. Many people stayed in the game because of such announcements. When a company publicly advertise something it has the legal obligation to deliver it. The failure to comply is even a fellony in many countries and can get people arrested for scam. This isn't a question about international law and I find it amusing that you think it is, very amusing. This is a question about what CCP is obligated to do in regards to you as a customer regarding the service they provide you. Which is very little - You aren't as important as you think you are. As for transparency, that's largely a matter of "eye of the beholder". I played EVE since 2004 and I know I've never experienced this much transparency and find it daunting that we get all this information. No other company in the same business area as CCP, would do this I guarentee you. I have yet to experience CCP not deliver what they promise...not even in this case. There simply isn't anything they promised you that they haven't delivered. If you say "more transparency" I'm going to laugh, because "more transparency" is no absolute and is also extremely vague. As far as they are concerned, they already provided you with what they promised..if you don't agree, tough beans, nothing you can do about it. Please though, by all means..be another one of those whackjobs that tries to hold CCP accountable by legal means like lawsuits and stuff, go ahead, I dare you, cause you won't own up if you go that route. Originally by: Etho Demerzel You were the one that said I already have the information I needed and that I do not needed anything else. I just pointed that I don't. Don't try to spin it off... You could make an educated guess based on a couple of times. Like, what would it be if it ran so and so many years, now what if it only ran 1 year, or 6 months..that way you have all kinds of bases covered. The real answer though won't be known until CCP finishes datamining and processing the data..for that you're just going to have to wait, cause it wont happen any faster just because you throw a little tantrum. Originally by: Etho Demerzel The world is pragmatic, and money making companies are the most pragmatic of them all. It is against the interetss of the company to go deeper on things that may bring them bad publicity if they can manage to do with superficialities and propaganda. An investigative body that is payed by the company they should investigate is just silly... I really wish I didn't have to do this..I really don't want to..but I can only assume at this point you have absolutely no idea about how IA works in most companies, in the real world. This just isn't "Etho Demerzel" world, as much as you want it to be. I don't know how else to say this. I'm sorry.. Originally by: Etho Demerzel The argument you put is an example of most arguments you have put until now. But I still have hope you will improve. Lets see. Heh, a little provocative..nice move, very nice. However I have little interest in taking the proverbial bait, cause as far as I'm concerned, I've just proven I was right by the way you reacted and that you haven't thought about your own reasoning, which still leaves much to be desired.

Atharax	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:46:00 - [2421] Thanks CCP for the update on this matter, clear and honest presentation where things and the investigation stand. Also good to get a confirmation on how long it been around open and clear reporting on matters is something we all benefit from. (All happy that the market didn't go completely nuts either, the trading system can take strain better than I have it credit for.)
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 13:46:00 - [2422] Edited by: Mikal Drey on 20/12/2008 13:46:50 Originally by: Avon Would you be happier if CCP published a list of every character, their associated alts I would. im not talking full disclosure but to a certain degree i would like to see the list of names and their alts. I hope CCP traced their alts/mains Originally by: wiki The enforceability of an EULA depends on several factors, one of them being the court in which the case is heard. Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C. ùsee, for instance, Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology (939 F.2d 91), Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd. (at harvard.edu) and Rich, Mass Market Software and the Shrinkwrap License (23 Colo. Law 1321.17). Other courts have determined that the shrinkwrap license agreement is valid and enforceable: see ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg (at findlaw.com), Microsoft v. Harmony Computers (846 F. Supp. 208, 212, E.D.N.Y. 1994), Novell v. Network Trade Center (at harvard.edu), and Arizona Cartridge Remanufacturers Association Inc. v. Lexmark International Inc. may have some bearing as well. No Court has ruled on the validity of EULAs generally; decisions are limited to particular provisions and terms. but yes, its just a game.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:01:00 - [2423] Originally by: Mikal Drey I would. im not talking full disclosure but to a certain degree i would like to see the list of names and their alts. I hope CCP traced their alts/mains First I'd like to say that I think the people who did abuse this POS exploit, did a bad thing. It was really low of them and I think they're pathetic. However to put your argument into perspective about disclosing names - pure hypothetically if I were one of the exploiters, I wouldn't want my character name given out to the public. There is every possibility that with just my nickname in EVE, you could track down who I was in real life if you really really wanted to and knew what you were doing - I don't want that to be possible. That's the most simple reasoning I can present..I hope I don't have to provide more reasons. Originally by: Mikal Drey The enforceability of an EULA depends on several factors, one of them being the court in which the case is heard. Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C. —see, for instance, Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology (939 F.2d 91), Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd. (at harvard.edu) and Rich, Mass Market Software and the Shrinkwrap License (23 Colo. Law 1321.17). Other courts have determined that the shrinkwrap license agreement is valid and enforceable: see ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg (at findlaw.com), Microsoft v. Harmony Computers (846 F. Supp. 208, 212, E.D.N.Y. 1994), Novell v. Network Trade Center (at harvard.edu), and Arizona Cartridge Remanufacturers Association Inc. v. Lexmark International Inc. may have some bearing as well. No Court has ruled on the validity of EULAs generally; decisions are limited to particular provisions and terms. but yes, its just a game. Read it a little more carefully
goofydoo	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:24:00 - [2424] I can see not naming names, but naming corps and alliances is different. For this to go on for 4 years(maybe)is very uncool. My real thoughts are: 1. How much did this affect the 0.0 current layout? 2. How many of the corps/alliances used this to horde T2 bpo's when they were readily available for sale? (people selling them) 3. How does CCP really restore any confidence from the player base that try to get ahead only to realize that they don't have a fair chance? And to respond to an earlier post i read, There is no need for rage. Just be shocked and move on. In anything you will find people who will cheat at any chance they get. This unfortunately is a fact of life. For me it kind of takes some of the fun out of EVE for a little while. Then i log onto my pirate account and kill some people and feel better :)
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:26:00 - [2425] Dear Etho (et al), let's put an end to the counter-quoting. If your world only allows for either a) CCP is guilty until proven otherwise b) fanboi then yes - I belong in the fanboi camp. If I believed half of your assumptions I wouldn't be here to argue anything - my subscription would be cancelled. I do not think that CCP is perfect. I believe they are a regular bunch of people and mostly normal company (above average game designers with a great vision though). There are things where I think they could have handled it better - but hindsight is always 20/20 and I make allowances for the occasional mess - which happens everywhere. The removal of ghost training was about money? Big surprise - not. What else could it have been about? First they tolerated it because it didn't affect the bottom line much, then it did and they put an end to it. Doesn't change the fact that the other threadnought is a bunch of whiners that moan because they no longer get a service for free - instead of being satisfied that they got it for free so long. Shrug. And yes - I don't hold a game company to the same standards I would hold - for example - a bank or medical equipment supplier or an airline. Also I know for a fact that players are human too - some are stupid, others seek attention or have some revenge agenda - so there is room for lies and spins everywhere. When I make assumptions about CCP I base them on - what I consider - reasonable assumptions about their own self-interest. Based on that I rule out that CCP would "knowingly" ignore such a bug, or allow cheating by employees on purpose. Because none of that is in their own best interest. Simple enough. At least half the "evidence" often fielded vs CCP is just people claiming stuff and getting free credibility by a forum mob. Some such "evidence" has been repeated so often that it is just accepted now - without anything to really back it up IMHO. I have read all those threads over the years you allude to - I just didn't believe it all. My standards of evidence are higher than yours. And yes - I put a bit of trust in what CCP says - otherwise I wouldn't be their customer any longer. Why are you still paying them? As for why CCP does not publish char names - you only have to read some of the posts here to understand why. Some char names can be connected to real names via fanfest contacts etc... They might not be entirely safe. And regardless of how small the chance is that somebody could be beaten up about this in RL - no company would take that risk. It does make sense for CCP to have a strict privacy policy. Similar for corp names and alliances. Why unleash a lynch mob on a corp or whole alliance where for all we know 1 cheater could give the whole corp a bad name and 1 corp could brand a whole alliance of hundreds or even thousands of members. Again - it does make sense to not release this information for perfectly good and valid reasons. Yes - I too would like to know the names - but I understand the reasons why I don't get them. And not getting those names does not hinder my gameplay at all. Actually the whole affair does not hinder my gameplay at all. So T2 products get a bit more expensive - shrug. That's a fraction of the effect that patches like invention had on the game. Easily adapted to. I want the cheaters banned for fairness reasons - not because they actually damaged the economy a lot. The economy was affected somewhat - but not damaged at all. Ore still gets mined, ships build and sold and destroyed. It's small change compared to the changes we had over 5+ years. You are of course free to draw your own conclusions. I just wonder why you give money to a company that you consider incompetent liars and cheats. Take your money elsewhere. According to your logic it must be easy to find games made by better run companies. At this point we simply have to agree to disagree. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Darklord Scott	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:43:00 - [2426] Well Put!
Salivan Harddin Gallente The Dark Resistance	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:43:00 - [2427] I think the hysteria has gone too far. You can't expect CCP to be the almighty god, they are just people with a regular job trying to provide a service to you people. They could have just kept this under wraps and you wouldn't have known about it, but instead chose to be honest and came clean with it. With such a complex game as EVE, which is being patched almost weekly, you can't expect all the exploits to be found in time, and with hundreds of thousands of petitions going on its hard for them to keep track. Has it occurred to you that they might have thought the exploits were not related and dealt with them locally? I can't believe the same guy processes all petitions so the pattern emerged only at such a late stage. As for accusations against the resident economist, let me remind you we are dealing with complex economical systems much similar to those in real life. Only a week ago a major fraud (50 billion US dollars' worth) was exposed in Wall Street, one that has gone on for more than a decade? In the same fraud money was "generated" out of air, and yet no one suspected? And some people did report it early on, yet they were ignored/ investigators found nothing. So before you scream for blood like some dirty Transylvanian peasants, breathe deep and count to ten and then think about the magnitude and complexity of the overall system. As for CCP, yeah, the messed up, yes, they didn't do their job properly, but they are at least trying to fix it. You on the other hand, have a much easier time sitting back in your chairs and fling poo at them for actually doing their job. EVE is a game, not your bank, not you workplace and they don't owe you disclosure of PRIVATE customers' details, those exploiters have rights too, not just you. I am glad CCP has shown responsibility and acted swiftly upon finding out the state of things. One last thing, you all make this as a sort of conspiracy, blowing stuff out of proportion without having any info to rely on, this smells to me as nothing but one huge trolling or a deliberate attempt to saw panic and distrust. -------------------------------------------------- This individual is not acting in behalf of his corporation. Anything he says is his own opinion and doesn't represent his corporation's
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:52:00 - [2428] Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that theres people blaming CCP and saying this is all CCP's fault, and CCP have lost our faith in them, and CCP must do things to regain our trust ...Yet it's the players who found an exploit, abused it and kept it secret so they could gain an unfair advantage - Shouldn't it be us who have to do something so that CCP regains their trust and faith in us?..I'm just saying.
Crassus Silverwolf Caldari Liberty Forces	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:53:00 - [2429] Thankyou CCP for a clear and concise update on the situation. It is good to see that the data mining goes on and those that are guilty of using this exploit pay the price. I look forward to further updates direct from CCP in the New Year and I am also very pleased to see you working with the CSM to provide a transparent reporting and investigative enquiry. Have a great Christmas and much Beer drinking for the New Year celebrations.
Khoin Xaver	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:55:00 - [2430] What an interesting Thread. Keeping in mind we are talking about a game environment, a couple of thoughts from an old paper gamer: 1.Like real life there are few rules that encompass all individuals, and that all individuals would agree to. 2.With CCP as the over arch-ing mentor/facilitator of the EvE environment they are not unlike the social conscience of our cultures/governments within the real world. They attempt to keep order (in their own, sometimes wildly different methods) 3.This POS situation is not unlike what happens in the real world. Like what?, When do people make something from nothing and then inject it into the economy? .. Governments do it all the time by printing more money, and not just the mainstream leaders. We have just seen EXACTLY this type of behavior in the real world with the exposure of a huge æPonzi SchemeÆ in the US impacting many high profile companies worldwide. A false creation of æwealthÆ injected into the economy. This all adds a flavor to the EvE world that makes the environment all the more engaging. Sure it is an æExploitÆ. But in the sense of the word, so is a pyramid scheme masquerading as a hedge fund. It is both amazing and interesting to see real world issues mimicÆd in a virtual world like EvE. I congratulate CCP for the way it is handling the situation, these æCriminalsÆ should be dealt with by the establishment. As patrons of the world we should be enjoying the diversity of this situation. Treat it as a part of the game. It would make a great story arc. (Hint Hint CCP) I look forward to the next ingenious situation. OldPaperDM: ô Ok..so, there are usually no dragons in this part of the empire, but what are YOU going to do about the one chewing your leg?ö ConcernedWarrior: ôum Kill itàö OldPaperDM: ôGood Answerö

Tyzzara Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:55:00 - [2431] Edited by: Tyzzara on 20/12/2008 15:02:49 Wow. If half of you really think the way you claim to in your posts here just quit the game and leave all of us alone. You have managed to turn this thread into another damn whine ass collective of every little girl in EVE. Some here are actually trying to have civilized, reasonable and well thought out conversations regarding the issues at hand. If this is how you approach all of your problems with EVE(by ****ing and whining incessantly like children but providing no reasonable arguments or evidence of your perceived problems) then you deserve to be ignored by CCP and anyone that matters. Your simply not worth wasting the time and energy on. The rest of us want to hear actual debates about this stuff and how it is being handled. So think before hitting the post button please. For those of you who believe you ought to be given the names of players involved it may be time to leave the adolescent mind set behind and realize how that is not a reasonable demand on multiple levels. I am curious but it is not a realistic demand. CCP is handling this issue with every bit of professionalism, public exposure and detail it deserves in my opinion. The public statement thus far has served its purpose and as they have said it will take a few weeks for them to conclude a full investigation and really analyze the entire situation. Thank you CCP for continuing to update us in the face of all this nonsense so many players want to focus on. There are a lot of us that appreciate it. More posts written like Glengrant's, Salivan Harddin's*(among others) most recent and less like a bunch of WOW punks please.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:00:00 - [2432] Originally by: Crassus Silverwolf Thankyou CCP for a clear and concise update on the situation. It is good to see that the data mining goes on and those that are guilty of using this exploit pay the price. I look forward to further updates direct from CCP in the New Year and I am also very pleased to see you working with the CSM to provide a transparent reporting and investigative enquiry. Have a great Christmas and much Beer drinking for the New Year celebrations. You sir..brought a tear to my eye, thank you! HUGS! oh oh ohgives him a beer too! ^_^ Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:00:00 - [2433] About the edc 19th update. Wow, this the kind of openess that is needed with exploits of the is nature. Props to CCP. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Louis deGuerre Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:02:00 - [2434] <quote CCP> CCP has confirmed that this bug has been exploitable since February 2007. Changes to the Starbases code from launch until February 2007 are minimal and very unlikely to have caused the bug. So at this point we are working on the assumption that this bug has been exploitable since the release of player owned structures on November 24th, 2004. </quote> I'm confused. Shouldn't that be exploitable since February 2004 then ? But then why November 2004 ?
LOPHATTE	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:06:00 - [2435] Wow... Eve's has got their own "international bankers" cartel....go figure.
Killer Gandry Caldari Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:06:00 - [2436] Thank you for the update.
Asoka Cyrus	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:13:00 - [2437] Originally by: Louis deGuerre <quote CCP> CCP has confirmed that this bug has been exploitable since February 2007. Changes to the Starbases code from launch until February 2007 are minimal and very unlikely to have caused the bug. So at this point we are working on the assumption that this bug has been exploitable since the release of player owned structures on November 24th, 2004. </quote> I'm confused. Shouldn't that be exploitable since February 2004 then ? But then why November 2004 ? No, it takes just a tiny bit of brain power to conclude from this that CCP can only CONFIRM the exploit since 2007 (because this is as far back as their records go) but given that the starbase feature wasn't touched all that much it can be ASSUMED that it has been exploited since 2004.
Napoleon Bismarck	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:20:00 - [2438] I want to know if it is dicovered that the Goons or BOB were using this exploit will they be banned and taken apart in the same way? Does this not raise the question of why some 0.0 alliances are so rich and powerful? Are CCP investigating every alliance and corp in 0.0 to ensure that they have not gotten to the position they are through cheating? CCP tells us that a good few people knew about this and that is the reason this all came out. That many people cannot keep a secret. I find it unlikely that of the thousands of players in the major alliances of EVE, not one of them knew how to use this exploit.
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:22:00 - [2439] Originally by: Louis deGuerre <quote CCP> CCP has confirmed that this bug has been exploitable since February 2007. Changes to the Starbases code from launch until February 2007 are minimal and very unlikely to have caused the bug. So at this point we are working on the assumption that this bug has been exploitable since the release of player owned structures on November 24th, 2004. </quote> I'm confused. Shouldn't that be exploitable since February 2004 then ? But then why November 2004 ? this means that they are aware that the bug was being exploited in feb 2007 and that whatever conditions they have set to consider the bug as an exploit exists at minimum from this date. what they have considered is that since the starbase system hasnt changed since conception and that no code changes were done that had any impact. therefore they can project that it was indeed possible before that and at starbase launch the bug existed but they cannot confirm at this stage that anyone was exploiting it. you have to consider that people had many many issues with pos's from the start and may have simply set their pos up and accepted that it was broken. they still fueled their pos as usual and cleaned out the silos in the regular cycle expected by design. the exploit only really occurs when someone is deliberatly using the bug to gain an advantage. The posses that CCP state they have ganked were setup specifically to abuse the bug, ergo exploiting it. the fine line when someone decided to mass exploit the bug is what CCP are looking at. I would assume that when CCP have more factual evidence the dates will change. When they eventually find the pettition from 2004 they can then clarify that the bug existed then work forward to find evidence that someone was exploiting it.
Andre Coeurl Gallente TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:26:00 - [2440] I fully endorse what others, like Glen of course , have pointed out saying that CCP is a company made by humans and that the work they do is fairly good for human standards. I would go further by saying that if all the companies around would work as hard and efficiently and with the costant aim of improving as CCP does, our whole world would be a better place as far as economy goes, and I think in other respects too Having said this, I also think that there might be a problem with how the petition system in general is conceived, because I have been feeling for personal experiences that the different petition groups don't seem to relate too much to each other or at least they don't relate enough with devs to say one... it looks a bit too "sealed" into itself at times. It would seem very useful for game experience improvement if the petition managers would signal to devs or other CCP departments when they meet a petition which contains elements regarding general gamplay, without expecting players to escalate their requests or exposing the problem on forums etc. I happened to suffer a scam and when I signaled the fact, without asking for a reimbursement of course but just pointing out how the current game interface helped scammers, I was just told "sorry but you have to go to the forums and signal that there", which doesn't seem very efficient to me. So I can understand that maybe on other issues somebody did signal a bug elading to an exploit as a bug and not as an exploit, shame, but it may have been better if the petition team would have thought about the consequences of said bug before archiving the petition. All that I'm saying is just to suggest a (small) improvement, I still enjoy the game very much and will go on playing adapting to it as usual, and I'll probably do it for a long time as long as CCP goes on improving it and taking players feedback into proper consideration as I feel they usually do. --- --- ---

Rhaven Praetorian BlackGuard Frater Adhuc Excessum	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:31:00 - [2441] Originally by: Louis deGuerre <quote CCP> CCP has confirmed that this bug has been exploitable since February 2007. Changes to the Starbases code from launch until February 2007 are minimal and very unlikely to have caused the bug. So at this point we are working on the assumption that this bug has been exploitable since the release of player owned structures on November 24th, 2004. </quote> I'm confused. Shouldn't that be exploitable since February 2004 then ? But then why November 2004 ? POS's were not intro duced till late 2004 they were not in game beofre then.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:57:00 - [2442] Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 20/12/2008 15:57:43 ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Wodanonline Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.20 15:58:00 - [2443] Thanks for the update. good to hear ccp is putting efford into finding the ppl directly responsible and banning everything connected to them. i hope the older data will bring more ppl to the chopping block and this game can work towards a future of fair play again.
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:03:00 - [2444] Originally by: Cadela Fria Read it a little more carefully i did :) the EULA is a contract between company and user. SOME courts have decided that its legally binding and would therefore have implications SOME courts believe that the EULA isnt binding whatsoever. I do agree with you about the RL complications of character naming and CCP standing by their policies but That still doesnt stop me from wanting them named and shamed as well as providing me with the ability to BM everyone of them so that i can see for myself that they never log back on. my trust in CCP is at an alltime low and providing as much disclosure as physically possible will gain my confidence.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:04:00 - [2445] Originally by: Glengrant The removal of ghost training was about money? Big surprise - not. What else could it have been about? First they tolerated it because it didn't affect the bottom line much, then it did and they put an end to it. Doesn't change the fact that the other threadnought is a bunch of whiners that moan because they no longer get a service for free - instead of being satisfied that they got it for free so long. Shrug. Oh for the love of god, I wish people would comment on things they have actually read properly instead of jumping to conclusions from a few posts. That is NOT what the other thread is about. Sure some posts reflect just the change itself, however the majority of complaints (read: Whines, for the unintelligible) are actually about the given reasons for the change, and how they began as a lie about it being all about DB loads from unsubbed training and also that it is considered a bug etc. It's not just complaining for complaining sake at all. But hey, if you want to negate much of your argument by appearing ignorant (and I mean no offencem I'm just trying to be factual) then be my guest.
Grace Arris Caldari In Service of The Sword	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:09:00 - [2446] Call me crazy... but I would like to see an in game story covering this situation. Not to be mistaken with reality of course but I am suggesting a little bit of a fiction into how this came to be... A sudden nebula activity sweeps the sector of space damaging or destroying a number of stations... A strange and alien in design crafts have been sighted in the sectors where the communication with star bases have been recently lost... Anyway... Lighten up, its not the end of the world :) But do watch the watcher :) All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:10:00 - [2447] Originally by: Mikal Drey Originally by: Cadela Fria Read it a little more carefully i did :) the EULA is a contract between company and user. SOME courts have decided that its legally binding and would therefore have implications SOME courts believe that the EULA isnt binding whatsoever. I do agree with you about the RL complications of character naming and CCP standing by their policies but That still doesnt stop me from wanting them named and shamed as well as providing me with the ability to BM everyone of them so that i can see for myself that they never log back on. my trust in CCP is at an alltime low and providing as much disclosure as physically possible will gain my confidence. Sure I know what you're saying, but is this really the right time to demand disclosure and that CCP prove to us that we can trust them...Isn't it really the other way around? I mean..aren't 'we' the ones who broke the trust with CCP. Aren't we the ones who should now prove that we can be trusted again? You know? I know you and I aren't the ones guilty specifically, but the same went for CCP during the T20 incident
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:18:00 - [2448] Originally by: Tyzzara Wow. If half of you really think the way you claim to in your posts here just quit the game and leave all of us alone. You have managed to turn this thread into another damn whine ass collective of every little girl in EVE. Some here are actually trying to have civilized, reasonable and well thought out conversations regarding the issues at hand. That is laughable. Any oppositing to the argument is deemed to be childish whines and you want us to leave you alone?! How hard is it to just ignore the posts you don't see merit in? Why are your opinions worth more than anyone elses on this forum? I can see merit in both sides of the argument - some people have class even if I don't agree with them, others do not. <Shrug>
Grace Arris Caldari In Service of The Sword	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:21:00 - [2449] Edited by: Grace Arris on 20/12/2008 16:23:45 Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Mikal Drey Originally by: Cadela Fria Read it a little more carefully i did :) the EULA is a contract between company and user. SOME courts have decided that its legally binding and would therefore have implications SOME courts believe that the EULA isnt binding whatsoever. I do agree with you about the RL complications of character naming and CCP standing by their policies but That still doesnt stop me from wanting them named and shamed as well as providing me with the ability to BM everyone of them so that i can see for myself that they never log back on. my trust in CCP is at an alltime low and providing as much disclosure as physically possible will gain my confidence. Sure I know what you're saying, but is this really the right time to demand disclosure and that CCP prove to us that we can trust them...Isn't it really the other way around? I mean..aren't 'we' the ones who broke the trust with CCP. Aren't we the ones who should now prove that we can be trusted again? You know? I know you and I aren't the ones guilty specifically, but the same went for CCP during the T20 incident In the end when you really look at it all in complete simplicity... Eve is a product, CCP is a manufacturer, Players are customers. From that point onwards everything else is your own perception and point of view, but as stated above it does not get any simpler. Do you expect a car to be recalled if someone speeds in it and dies? Is it manufacturer's fault that the car goes to 200km when a legal speed limit is say 100? If you buy a watch and break it... do you have to proof to the company who made it that you can be trusted? Different products, different laws, different rules, different people, different use... different... different... Eve is a product, CCP is a manufacturer/provider, we are the customers. Of course it would be very helpful if we were a nice bunch of customers :) not a band or raving lunatics :) All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Freezehunter Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:29:00 - [2450] \o/ first page in epic thread... Oh wait... >.> ------------------------------------------------

Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:33:00 - [2451] Originally by: Grace Arris Edited by: Grace Arris on 20/12/2008 16:23:45 Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Mikal Drey Originally by: Cadela Fria Read it a little more carefully i did :) the EULA is a contract between company and user. SOME courts have decided that its legally binding and would therefore have implications SOME courts believe that the EULA isnt binding whatsoever. I do agree with you about the RL complications of character naming and CCP standing by their policies but That still doesnt stop me from wanting them named and shamed as well as providing me with the ability to BM everyone of them so that i can see for myself that they never log back on. my trust in CCP is at an alltime low and providing as much disclosure as physically possible will gain my confidence. Sure I know what you're saying, but is this really the right time to demand disclosure and that CCP prove to us that we can trust them...Isn't it really the other way around? I mean..aren't 'we' the ones who broke the trust with CCP. Aren't we the ones who should now prove that we can be trusted again? You know? I know you and I aren't the ones guilty specifically, but the same went for CCP during the T20 incident In the end when you really look at it all in complete simplicity... Eve is a product, CCP is a manufacturer, Players are customers. From that point onwards everything else is your own perception and point of view, but as stated above it does not get any simpler. Do you expect a car to be recalled if someone speeds in it and dies? Is it manufacturer's fault that the car goes to 200km when a legal speed limit is say 100? If you buy a watch and break it... do you have to proof to the company who made it that you can be trusted? Different products, different laws, different rules, different people, different use... different... different... Eve is a product, CCP is a manufacturer/provider, we are the customers. Of course it would be very helpful if we were a nice bunch of customers :) not a band or raving lunatics :) Which is why comparing CCP to all manners of companies is folly..it can't be done if we break it down like this to the simple facts, it just doesn't transfer. What I proposed works with CCP and EVE, not with a car manufacturer and whatever else you mentioned EVE is not a car, you can't compare, EVE is not a watch, you can't compare.. Going by what you say, EVE is a product, CCP is the manufacturer, we're the customers, then sure..but that's about it. If you start attaching any rules or specific procedures to it, you go beyond the simple principles, at which point I will sum up all the exact same reasons as to why with any other company, names, research data, IA investigations etc, will never be released to the public. Finally, yes..if we weren't raving lunatics ..that'd help a lot.
Rufo Kathcar	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:34:00 - [2452] I just don't understand how something this major could have been in the game for years without anybody at CCP hearing about it or noticing it. It feels like the integrity of the game has taken a real punch.
Feyd'Rautha Harkonen	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:43:00 - [2453] The problem; as it has been in the past issues of this type is transparency. CCP is telling us "There were a whole bunch of horrible exploiters and we dealt with them." But nobody is naming names. Who were these people? Who lost wars or ISK because of them? Any justice system makes the names of Criminals and their crimes known so that the populace has a sense of where and how justice is being done;and more importantly to whom. Simply saying "there's x number of exploiters and we got rid of them." isn't enough. Secret banning and of nameless accounts just smacks of something dishonest, sorry, that's just how it looks. That may not, hell, it probably isn't the case here; but silence fuels speculation. The over seventy accounts could be anybody; hell they might even not exist. How would we know? We know because you post a list of 'bad guys', we know some of these people, and we know why they aren't around any more. You can't just say something was done, you need to PROVE it to the player base if you want them to have faith in you again. Unless you do that people are always going to be suspicious.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:59:00 - [2454] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 17:00:27 Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen The problem; as it has been in the past issues of this type is transparency. CCP is telling us "There were a whole bunch of horrible exploiters and we dealt with them." But nobody is naming names. They shouldn't either..nobody does this sort of thing. It's called privacy and confidentiality agreements. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen Who were these people? Doesn't matter who, they're gone..If you don't believe that (and I'm not saying you don't), then nothing will change that belief, since all information will come from CCP, and if they lied to you to begin with, what makes you think they won't lie to you in the data they give you? I mean seriously. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen Who lost wars or ISK because of them? Doesn't matter..I'd venture a guess that most of the people who are now crippled, don't really feel like making things worse by taking public flak. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen Any justice system makes the names of Criminals and their crimes known so that the populace has a sense of where and how justice is being done;and more importantly to whom. We aren't dealing with criminals here..they exploited a bug in a video game, they didn't kill 10 people in real life. Which means they broke the rules of the game set forth by the company, but are still protected by the agreement of confidentiality and privacy. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen Simply saying "there's x number of exploiters and we got rid of them." isn't enough. Secret banning and of nameless accounts just smacks of something dishonest, sorry, that's just how it looks. To you maybe, but then if thats how you think, then like I said earlier..you will never be at peace, because all information you'll ever get, will come from the people whos word you don't trust. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen That may not, hell, it probably isn't the case here; but silence fuels speculation. The over seventy accounts could be anybody; hell they might even not exist. How would we know? We know because they said so..if you don't believe what they say, then you're out of luck no matter what. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen We know because you post a list of 'bad guys', we know some of these people, and we know why they aren't around any more. You can't just say something was done, you need to PROVE it to the player base if you want them to have faith in you again. Unless you do that people are always going to be suspicious. They don't have to prove anything - this isn't a case of us having faith in them. We (the players) were the ones who exploited CCP's game, not CCP..They don't owe us anything in this matter. That they decide to disclose as much as they have is admirable, but in no way is it something that they are obligated to.
Louis deGuerre Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.12.20 17:06:00 - [2455] Thanks you for that explanation, Mikal Drey.
Mass Attack	Posted - 2008.12.20 17:27:00 - [2456] I'm going to go ahead and break this down for the little brains trolling along in the forum. There are two types of severe stupidity cropping up in this thread. The first type is the poster going 'what's the big deal?'. If that is your honest reaction then you're not capable of understanding what happened and it is more than likely a complete waste of time even bothering to try to explain it to you again. The Big Deal: Part I: This exploit allowed the entire balance of power to be shifted in such a way that the entire geography has been altered. From the direct implication in 0.0 to the trickle up effect it has on low sec space to quite possibly even explaining the seemingly endless resources of the suicide gankers. All along we just thought it was the insurance allowing them to do what they do. That much ISK generated via exploit has effected in some way every corporation and every player in Eve. Part II: The way this thing has hashed out so far both redeems and condemns CCP at the same time. They appear to be forthcoming especially considering they are releasing information that does not make them look good. On the same token they are NOT releasing the information that everyone wants SPECIFICALLY the names of the CHARACTERS with links to their ALTS and Corporations and Alliances. To those of you saying 'They can't release that! That is private information! OMGZ! I retort: Really? Really. Nobody asked for their name, address, social security number, and license plate information. We asked for their IN GAME CHARACTERS. If that is private information then my people and places search feature is severely broken in that I can get character names on it at WILL. The reason WE want character names and alt names and alliance/corp names is for one simple reason; The involvement of CCP personnel in fraudulent in-game activity is not without precedent. CCP has fiercely defended the rights of its developers and other employees to play this game and for some people that sits wrong. Personally, I think there is a distinct difference to be made between the employees/developers of CCP simply playing the game vs them being directly involved in vast alliances that shape the gameplay of every customer. Simply put, releasing the character information of those involved even if by association is the only thing that will go towards clearing the opinion of a lot of players that CCP personnel had nothing to do with this exploit. In my opinion a failure to do so by CCP can only signal one thing, that some of their people were involved, knew it was going on and didn't care because playing the game came before their duty to customers. The 2nd type of worthless input into this thread are the people going 'omgz whats going on?'
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 17:51:00 - [2457] Originally by: Mass Attack I'm going to go ahead and break this down for the little brains trolling along in the forum. [...] [...] On the same token they are NOT releasing the information that everyone wants SPECIFICALLY the names of the CHARACTERS with links to their ALTS and Corporations and Alliances. To those of you saying 'They can't release that! That is private information! OMGZ! I retort: Really? Really. Nobody asked for their name, address, social security number, and license plate information. We asked for their IN GAME CHARACTERS. If that is private information then my people and places search feature is severely broken in that I can get character names on it at WILL. Since you're so clever and call the rest of us little brains who are trolling, please, tell me the character names of the ones who exploited the POS bug with your "People and Places" search...go on...I'm waiting... What's that? You can't because you don't know who they are??? That's odd, I'm sure you said that the character names of the exploiters weren't private information. Look, I'm sorry I was that mean about it, but you were being pretty rude The simple fact is, that if you knew the character names, you have all you need inorder to track down who these people are in real life and that's what CCP and a lot of us don't want to happen..that's why it has to remain confidential. Originally by: Mass Attack The reason WE want character names and alt names and alliance/corp names is for one simple reason; The involvement of CCP personnel in fraudulent in-game activity is not without precedent. CCP has fiercely defended the rights of its developers and other employees to play this game and for some people that sits wrong. You can't simply blame CCP for something that, as a first symptom, is a scandal committed by us (the players) - just because of 1 incident a long time ago. We're the guilty ones here, not CCP.. Originally by: Mass Attack Personally, I think there is a distinct difference to be made between the employees/developers of CCP simply playing the game vs them being directly involved in vast alliances that shape the gameplay of every customer. Simply put, releasing the character information of those involved even if by association is the only thing that will go towards clearing the opinion of a lot of players that CCP personnel had nothing to do with this exploit. In my opinion a failure to do so by CCP can only signal one thing, that some of their people were involved, knew it was going on and didn't care because playing the game came before their duty to customers. I know I'm with lots, lots and lots of players who don't believe CCP personnel had anything to do with this exploit. We're open to the idea that it might turn out that there was CCP involved in it, but firstly we're ashamed that fellow players in game which prides itself on it's level of intellect, had to stoop to the level of cheating, and then try to blame the creators of the game afterwards..it's just not right..it's sad.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 17:52:00 - [2458] Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen The problem; as it has been in the past issues of this type is transparency. CCP is telling us "There were a whole bunch of horrible exploiters and we dealt with them." But nobody is naming names. They shouldn't either..nobody does this sort of thing. It's called privacy and confidentiality agreements. Which is listed where and by whom? Which part of any agreement would CCP be breaching if they decided to publish "Squirrrel" as one of the banned characters?
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:04:00 - [2459] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 18:04:30 Originally by: Squirrrel Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen The problem; as it has been in the past issues of this type is transparency. CCP is telling us "There were a whole bunch of horrible exploiters and we dealt with them." But nobody is naming names. They shouldn't either..nobody does this sort of thing. It's called privacy and confidentiality agreements. Which is listed where and by whom? Which part of any agreement would CCP be breaching if they decided to publish "Squirrrel" as one of the banned characters? Do I really have to go fetch the EULA and TOS ...If they pointed the finger at you, Squirrrel, as being one of the people who exploited this issue, I guarentee you that your real life information would be out and about on various forums like SHC and so forth within a week..as if no one knows who you are in real life, and ontop of that they know you were one of the naughty people in this whole thing..well...and you know theres going to be atleast a good bunch of idiots whos going to take this into real life in one form or another. I mean maybe you in particular have something specific about you that makes it so that your real life information won't be released, or that no one will bother, I don't know..but someone else won't be so lucky. In short, if the names were released, I will not have any part of this community any longer nor the company, it would simply be careless, unprofessional and wrong.
Merick Dronome Quantum Empire	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:05:00 - [2460] All I can say is, thank God i just like playing the game. Your Signature exceeds the max filesize limit of 24,000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo

Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:05:00 - [2461] Originally by: Cadela Fria ...please, tell me the character names of the ones who exploited the POS bug with your "People and Places" search...go on...I'm waiting... What's that? You can't because you don't know who they are??? That's odd, I'm sure you said that the character names of the exploiters weren't private information. There's a huge difference between the bannings themselves and the character names being private information. You can find my character name, history and in-game location from the tools within the game. You cannot find any of my personal details. CCP still own all in-game content, none of it is personal information and if they chose to they could announce it. We both know of course, they choose not to, as is their right. Originally by: Cadela Fria The simple fact is, that if you knew the character names, you have all you need inorder to track down who these people are in real life and that's what CCP and a lot of us don't want to happen..that's why it has to remain confidential. You do indeed have a slight point there in my opinion, I saw your previous case for the involvement of Fanfest being a possible avenue for linking people to character names. That said, if all you need is a character name to track someone down, we would probably be seeing a lot of that with much of the hatred in the game itself, by those using legal mechanics yet considered lamers by others. The hostility when someone gets ganked or scammed is massive at times, with some seemingly unable to let it go. Fact is, although I could see an argument that CCP would not want to be liable for any silly acts of revenge - if they could prove that they did not release personal information they would be cleared of any wrong doing. Passing out any private information to people in game is done at your own risk, and if you then decide to cheat too - you're a fool. Chances are someone is going to know you got banned, and it could be your own corp/alliance that seeks revenge for slighting their name.
Aramis Rosicrux Gallente Blazing Research	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:14:00 - [2462] Thank you for the update of December 19th. I appreciate you keeping us posted, and in the current economic turmoil of the world, it might be easy for CCP to just walk away and start something new. I do not think that any complex game could ever be totally error-free, and I do not blame CCP for this exploite. Further, as the first reports of this were not directed properly, the GM's are not at fault for deliberately burying the issue. It is far more likely that they were given petition parameters to which they should focus and discard the rest. In a perfect world, and with proper staffing, all reports could be investigated, but who wants to pay more for that, eh? As a group, Eve players are finicky, sneaky and dare I say it, cheap. We want you to provide more but balk at paying more for the improved service. I urge you to choose to increase the price and improve the quality, than to leave pricing alone and pay 'lip service' to quality control issues. Eve Online is a truely elite universe and I would pay more to save it from demise... May you continue to profit from operating Eve Online, and please find a way to REWARD the good players! Humility is the hallmark of honorable character. Aramis Rosicrux
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:16:00 - [2463] Edited by: Avon on 20/12/2008 18:17:19 Mass Attack, it isn't that people don't get the exploit and its effects .. it is just that we don't see how dragging it around the forums is supposed to fix anything in game. Either you can take CCP on faith, and hope that they have learnt the lessons from previous problems, or you can't. If you can, great. If you can't, why are you paying them? You obviously will only accept any disclosures which suit the view of events you already have, rather than the facts that CCP may give. If you can't trust them, why ask them for information? I'm not happy about this whole thing, but I just don't see how public disclosure is supposed to fix the game. I'm happy for CCP to clean this mess up. The mob won't stop until anyone even remotely linked to this exploit is banned .. which is probably anyone who has ever bought anything T2. Just let CCP do their job. If you can't trust them, don't pay them. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:21:00 - [2464] Oh, and while we are on the subject, I invite anyone in this thread asking for names to be named to list all their characters and alts, and any forum/game warnings or bans they have ever received. Lead by example, show us the great thing that public disclosure is. If we don't like what we read, we can just shrug it off as you covering up, right? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
ChanseTremors	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:23:00 - [2465] Get 'em, CCP - crush those cheaters! Seek out cheaters wherever they are and whomever they are, expose them for what they really are - scumbags. We commend you for your thoroughness in getting to the bottom of this and for your efforts to make things retroactively right. We look forward to your next update. Chansetremors Herald of Tremor Recorded (TREM)
Feyd'Rautha Harkonen	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:24:00 - [2466] Quote: They shouldn't either..nobody does this sort of thing. It's called privacy and confidentiality agreements. You don't know much about either tbh. Where's your 'expectation to privacy' when someone posts your name on a Kill-board? There isn't one because your game-name is public information; it's not 'confidential' neither are any of your actions. That's REAL world law. You also lose any expectation to any sort of privacy when you engage in a criminal or civil misdeed. The moment you are charged or filed against that information can be descovered under freedom of information. In short nothing these people have done has any expectation to privacy because of it's public impact. Quote: We aren't dealing with criminals here..they exploited a bug in a video game, they didn't kill 10 people in real life. I hate to break this to you; but the courts have found what you do in a video game or to virtual property can get you prosecuted in a court of law. There's a half-dozen cases out there where people have been successfully sued in a court of law for exploits. The most applicable case I can think of off hand involved one guy hacking the server to steal the in-game items of another player. Now; it's not clear they've committed any criminal misdeeds; however they HAVE arguably committed a series of torts; the big one being fraud. I pay real world money for this game every month. In return for my money I am entitled to play an MMORPG where I engage in PVP against other players, whether in combat or economics, where all players are bound by the same system of rules. That's what makes it a game of skill. I am paying for a level playing field in a science fiction game. You wouldn't play chess with a guy who could had an endless supply of pieces to replace the ones you took now would you? The question is what is to be done about it? Take a look at any court of law in the real world; they're all open to the public. For a justice system to have legitimacy; the populace needs to be actively involved in the process. You may not care, but looking at the rants on this board plenty of people do. WE need to see the accused, see the evidence against them, and see the date of their ban. That way we know who did what, and that they were punished and didn't just cancel their accounts to play some other game. Quote: To you maybe, but then if that's how you think, then like I said earlier..you will never be at peace, because all information you'll ever get, will come from the people whos word you don't trust. Sure, I don't trust them right now; but that's because of a lack of knowledge of who the exploiters are. I never said I'll never trust them. I'll start believing them when they start substantiating their claims with evidence that players can independently verify. Name the 70+ characters, name their corp and alliance affiliations. If they do that THEN I will believe that they are honestly dealing with the problem. As long as they remain secretive about what they are doing and how they are doing it the will always lack the appearance of legitimacy regardless of their actions. Sorry; but that's how it is.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:27:00 - [2467] Lead by example Feyd'Rautha, name all your character/alts and any warnings they may have been given by CCP, either in-game or on the forums. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:30:00 - [2468] Originally by: Squirrrel There's a huge difference between the bannings themselves and the character names being private information. You can find my character name, history and in-game location from the tools within the game. You cannot find any of my personal details. CCP still own all in-game content, none of it is personal information and if they chose to they could announce it. We both know of course, they choose not to, as is their right. And that's the thing..I can indeed find your character information etc via those tools. But if I don't know it's you I'm looking for..well You're right though that you can't use the tool ingame to find personal information, but you could possibly use it to track down their corp history, and thus potentially people who know who that person is in real life. Originally by: Squirrrel You do indeed have a slight point there in my opinion, I saw your previous case for the involvement of Fanfest being a possible avenue for linking people to character names. That said, if all you need is a character name to track someone down, we would probably be seeing a lot of that with much of the hatred in the game itself, by those using legal mechanics yet considered lamers by others. The hostility when someone gets ganked or scammed is massive at times, with some seemingly unable to let it go. Fact is, although I could see an argument that CCP would not want to be liable for any silly acts of revenge - if they could prove that they did not release personal information they would be cleared of any wrong doing. Passing out any private information to people in game is done at your own risk, and if you then decide to cheat too - you're a fool. Chances are someone is going to know you got banned, and it could be your own corp/alliance that seeks revenge for slighting their name. Theres a difference though..a ganking affects one person, maybe a couple. This incident affects everyone..that's a lot of people, and we're talking about a multi-trillion isk operation. That's a really big issue. Obviously quite an amount of people are more than upset about it - Do you really want to put yourself in the line of fire. I wouldn't..and I certainly don't want company to more or less hand me to a real life lynch mob for something I did in a video game. Finally, it's not a question about you foolishly passing out your real life information, then decide to cheat. Sure it's foolish, but the real thing is, that it's a matter of CCP releasing the information so that connecting these characters to the real people behind them is even possible.Doing so would be extremely irresponsible and unprofessional.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:33:00 - [2469] Originally by: Avon Either you can take CCP on faith, and hope that they have learnt the lessons from previous problems, or you can't. If you can, great. If you can't, why are you paying them? You obviously will only accept any disclosures which suit the view of events you already have, rather than the facts that CCP may give. Well, there I think you are mistaken Avon, though your other posts are quite fine. There is a third option: to bug CCP enough until they change their course. That was seen in the t20 incident. First they tried to hush it up but the players made a big uproar and pushed CCP to investigate more etc. etc. In the end CCP installed the IA department, safety procedures and what not. Who knows if that all would have happened without the playerbase voicing out their concern that loudly? This bug exploit is on a completely different level though. No inside cheating happened. No cover-up attempt happened.It was a bug, undiscovered for a long time, exploited by some people in the past and especially during the last months (with noticable impact on the market since several weeks but not longer). CCP is proceeding with the investigation, they are on a good way as far as I can see. To those people who yell and scream at CCP: why are you still here? If you mistrust CCP that much, then why are you giving them their money/time? Get some experience from real life, then come back and be surprised that CCP is doing more than most other companies/organisations would do in such a case. People shouldn't stop asking questions in general, but they should learn to know when it is enough.
nekolove Eve University	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:33:00 - [2470] So many people minimizing the exploit deal and against disclosure of related characters (which is the very minimum that CCP could do) tells me one clear thing: that there are a whole big lot of accounts and alts still due for banning, and CCP is failing to do so. And that is being positive. If I were to be negative then I would think that, as in the past, there are insiders involved and CCP has something dirty to hide. And we all know the chance of conspiracy theories turning out true in Eve. It is this kind of mentality that CCP has to fight against! as once such beliefs/rumours are spread over the mmorpg community, you could as well consider Eve a dead game.

Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:35:00 - [2471] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Avon Either you can take CCP on faith, and hope that they have learnt the lessons from previous problems, or you can't. If you can, great. If you can't, why are you paying them? You obviously will only accept any disclosures which suit the view of events you already have, rather than the facts that CCP may give. Well, there I think you are mistaken Avon, though your other posts are quite fine. There is a third option: to bug CCP enough until they change their course. That was seen in the t20 incident. First they tried to hush it up but the players made a big uproar and pushed CCP to investigate more etc. etc. In the end CCP installed the IA department, safety procedures and what not. Who knows if that all would have happened without the playerbase voicing out their concern that loudly? I thought I covered that in the learning lessons from the past bit. Ah well, my bad for not being more clear. I don't think it applies here though - I'm not sure there is anything more CCP can put in place, no matter how much forum crying their is - we just have to trust that what they have works. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:37:00 - [2472] Originally by: nekolove So many people minimizing the exploit deal and against disclosure of related characters (which is the very minimum that CCP could do) tells me one clear thing: that there are a whole big lot of accounts and alts still due for banning, and CCP is failing to do so. And that is being positive. That's a pretty good strawman. I think everyone wants the exploiters banned, no matter which side of the public disclosure fence they sit on. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Major Deviant	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:39:00 - [2473] I personally do not care to find out who are the players involved. They got/will be banned, good riddance. What however I do want to know, is which corporations/aliances/powerblocks are involved. The argument against this, is that it will indirectly implicate all the members of the involved party and especially those at the top. Well, it should. If they did not get banned I am willing to take CCP's word that they are innocent. To carry the stain though of being part of an organization that had an unfair advantage is quite just, is it not? It will be up to them to clear their names and prove their worth and that is very small price to pay.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:42:00 - [2474] Edited by: Squirrrel on 20/12/2008 18:43:29 Originally by: Cadela Fria Do I really have to go fetch the EULA and TOS Well the EULA doesn't apply anyway. EULA B. By CCP for Breach or Misconduct i. Suspension of Account Without limiting CCP's rights or remedies, CCP may immediately, and without notice, discontinue or suspend access to the System through your Account, and any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the discontinued or suspended Account, in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA (including the Rules of Conduct) by you or any user under your Account; or (ii) unauthorized access to the System or use of the Game by you or any user under your Account. ii. Termination of EULA CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you. CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section. D. Closed Accounts If for any reason the EULA is terminated with regard to any or all of your Accounts, those Accounts will be closed, upon which all rights granted to you under the EULA shall terminate with regard to the closed Accounts, and you must discontinue your use of the Software, and you may not access the System or play the Game under any closed Account, and all the attributes of the Accounts, including characters, items and currency in the Accounts, will be lost. PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY A. Communications Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms. CCP representatives may monitor communications made by or received from you. You should not provide private information to any other player in the Game. CCP shall not be responsible for the consequences of any such disclosure by you. B. Personal Information CCP does not guarantee that personal information transmitted to the System, including without limitation information in your Account, will not be disclosed to third parties. While CCP's aim is to keep your personal information confidential and CCP employs security measures to protect the System, third parties may unlawfully intercept transmissions or private communications, or access data within the System. Additionally, CCP may (and you hereby expressly authorize CCP to) disclose information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials, as CCP, in its sole discretion, deems necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible crimes or to respond to judicial, regulatory, agency or similar inquiries. So, which part here or in the TOS states that CCP cannot disclose character names?
Feyd'Rautha Harkonen	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:42:00 - [2475] Edited by: Feyd''Rautha Harkonen on 20/12/2008 18:44:02 Originally by: Avon Lead by example Feyd'Rautha, name all your character/alts and any warnings they may have been given by CCP, either in-game or on the forums. How about you take your own advice? You BoBites have more to prove to the community at large then I do when it comes to exploits. Didn't think so. Either we're all in or we're not; that's how a fair and equitable system works. What are you afraid of anyway? If any thing you in BoB have tons to game from a system like this. When the Goons accuse you of cheating you could go grab the names of all their exploiters and say 'back at ya!' I don't see anything but gain for you as an alliance under a system like this.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:45:00 - [2476] Originally by: Major Deviant If they did not get banned I am willing to take CCP's word that they are innocent. lol, it doesn't work like that .. trust me, I know. One developer fiddled the game to give himself a handful of T2 blueprints, and even stated clearly that no-one else was involved. Look how that effected the reputation of BoB. Personally I can live with it because I know I have done nothing wrong, and I am far too long in the tooth to care too much what other people think. Equally, however, I wouldn't wish that situation on anyone else. Anyone who ever bought anything T2 is just as likely to have been indirecty involved with this exploit. Have you ever bought a T2 item? If so I put it to you that you are part of this issue, and should be banned immediately, non? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:46:00 - [2477] Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen Edited by: Feyd''Rautha Harkonen on 20/12/2008 18:44:02 Originally by: Avon Lead by example Feyd'Rautha, name all your character/alts and any warnings they may have been given by CCP, either in-game or on the forums. How about you take your own advice? You BoBites have more to prove to the community at large then I do when it comes to exploits. Didn't think so. Either we're all in or we're not; that's how a fair and equitable system works. What are you afraid of anyway? If any thing you in BoB have tons to game from a system like this. When the Goons accuse you of cheating you could go grab the names of all their exploiters and say 'back at ya!' I don't see anything but gain for you as an alliance under a system like this. I didn't see your list. I guess that means you are in fact against public disclosure? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:52:00 - [2478] Originally by: Cadela Fria I already showed you how - It's very simple, and I'm going to repeat that a bank should trust it's employees or it wouldn't have hired them, because thats how it works. If they have ANY doubts..hiring someone just won't happen. That is called ad nauseam fallacy. In the absence of any possible argumen you keep repeating the same thing again and again. Originally by: Cadela Fria I'm not going to debate pointless semantics with you regarding various vague definitions of trust, because the scenario is very specific in saying that you don't trust the employees and therefor they need to be investigated and the data presented to you and if applied to a bank, no one would want to work there, myself included - I have done nothing wrong and thus I don't want to be questioned and investigated, poked, prodded and harassed just cause you as a customer are paranoid. And this is called dodging the question. There is absolutely no semantical discussion in my questions. I just said that trust is not boolean. It is not as if you must have absolute trust or don't. Do you give your bank account information and password to your friends and leave them with your bank card? Do you sign blank checks to pay your employees and let them fill those checks? There are degrees of trust. And you fail to understand this. Quote: The government you say? reprensentative of the people? That's funny I was under the impression that most people didn't trust their government and in many cases get screwed by it cause it abuses it's power..If that's the case, which it is, it seems like a very bad example. Well, for less than people trust the government they do trust it more than they trust private companies. Unless they are stupid that is. And the government can be audit too. Everybody has the right to, and the press do it all the time. All information regarding it is public knowledge. Quote: My name means "cold female dog" or "cold bleep", and has just as much to do with peeing as your name does, like I said before. Maybe you didn't know, but humans pee too..there is no reason why you had to make a remark about my name, that's frankly rather pathetic since it has no importance of relevance to you, me or this discussion. Man, if you pee in your shoes, like a dog, you should look for a doctor... Quote: Ask the company you work for ..if they aren't as big as CCP, scale the amount down to fit. I have my own company, and I wouldn't really be even slightly annoyed to lose 0.1% of my monthly income, thank you. I also do jobs for several large companies, and I can assure you that 0.1% of their income is irrelevant compared to their public image. They spend for 5-8% only in advertisements... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:55:00 - [2479] Originally by: Etho Demerzel I have my own company, and I wouldn't really be even slightly annoyed to lose 0.1% of my monthly income, thank you. I also do jobs for several large companies, and I can assure you that 0.1% of their income is irrelevant compared to their public image. They spend for 5-8% only in advertisements... I'd keep that in mind while you are doing your best to make them look bad if I were you. Just sayin' Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:57:00 - [2480] Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen You don't know much about either tbh. Where's your 'expectation to privacy' when someone posts your name on a Kill-board? There isn't one because your game-name is public information; it's not 'confidential' neither are any of your actions. That's REAL world law. You also lose any expectation to any sort of privacy when you engage in a criminal or civil misdeed. The moment you are charged or filed against that information can be descovered under freedom of information. In short nothing these people have done has any expectation to privacy because of it's public impact. I know all I need to know thank you. Rules are rules and they say that theres privacy and confidentiality regardless of what you do. Also, what is this "Freedom of Information" ? CCP has very clear privacy rules and if you don't like them, don't pay the company. In short, everything these people have done has every expectation to privacy, because it's a game with a ToS and a EULA. Now that we're at it, please read Avon's post..lead by example. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen I hate to break this to you; but the courts have found what you do in a video game or to virtual property can get you prosecuted in a court of law. There's a half-dozen cases out there where people have been successfully sued in a court of law for exploits. The most applicable case I can think of off hand involved one guy hacking the server to steal the in-game items of another player. Oh please "hate to break it to you"..No, look I'm sorry, I really don't want to be rude, but come on, sheesh. "The courts"..I'm sorry, which "courts" are we talking about here? My courts? They've decided no such thing..Your courts? Whos your court? What do I care, I'm not under rule or regulation by your "courts", whatever that may imply. As for the people who have sued and such..yeah, wasn't that like in Second Life or something? And what like, WoW or something? I don't know exactly which cases it were, but so what. As for the guy hacking. hacking is a real life crime..end of discussion. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen [...] I pay real world money for this game every month. In return for my money I am entitled to play an MMORPG where [...] [...] You wouldn't play chess with a guy who could had an endless supply of pieces to replace the ones you took now would you? Your money doesn't entitle you to anything really beyond that of access to the server, that's it..Heck even that can be revoked in the blink of an eye. If you don't like it, stop paying. As for the chess example, it's not really a very good example..so I can't really answer it. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen stuff about court of law, open courts, populace needs this and that yadda yadda...(sorry running out of letters) 1. This isn't a court of law in the real world. No point in making this analogy over and over.. 2. Oh, and not all courts are open. 3. No the "populace" does not need to be actively involved, I don't know why you think this. In fact it would be a really reall really bad idea if the entire populace of a country was involved in every single court case. 4. WE need no such thing as you claim, if you trust is that lacking, stop playing, seriously..you'll never get what you want, cause it doesnt exist. Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen Sure, I don't trust them right now; but that's because of a lack of knowledge of who the exploiters are. [...] Sorry; but that's how it is. From me to you, as a fellow player, pretending there was no rules preventing the information being released..I wouldn't want you to have that information. You're far too creepy and I wouldn't want whatever you're plotting to do with that information to befall anyone. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Feyd'Rautha Harkonen	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:02:00 - [2481] Quote: I didn't see your list. I guess that means you are in fact against public disclosure? No; you're just waging a very inept argument. Under the system proposed; if and when I'm guilty of exploiting CCP can name all my characters on the very public board. How is that hypocritical? I have committed no wrong doing. If I have then I will be exposed by the very system I am calling for. So, logically, why would I do such a thing if I had anything I wanted to hide? By chance; If I did engage your strawman you'd accuse me of lying about not being guilty of any exploits. Of course, if you agreed to the exploit-board; there would be NO question. We'd immediately know who was guilty of what. But this isn't about us; it's about the 70+ characters who ARE known exploiters and who SHOULD be exposed. If you hate exploits why would you be against publically punishing those who use them?
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:04:00 - [2482] Originally by: Cadela Fria You're right though that you can't use the tool ingame to find personal information, but you could possibly use it to track down their corp history, and thus potentially people who know who that person is in real life. Thats the risk you take when you both a) go against the EULA: PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY A. Communications Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms. CCP representatives may monitor communications made by or received from you. You should not provide private information to any other player in the Game. CCP shall not be responsible for the consequences of any such disclosure by you. and b) Cheat in an MMO. Originally by: Cadela Fria Theres a difference though..a ganking affects one person, maybe a couple. This incident affects everyone..that's a lot of people, and we're talking about a multi-trillion isk operation. That's a really big issue. Obviously quite an amount of people are more than upset about it - Do you really want to put yourself in the line of fire. I wouldn't..and I certainly don't want company to more or less hand me to a real life lynch mob for something I did in a video game. And yet you still run the risk of doing this everytime you gank, smack or scam someone, or a couple of someones, or a corp or an alliance... You have no idea who is behind that avatar, whether it's someone like you or I who will take it for what it is, or some deranged individual who will hunt you down IRL. Maybe to protect ourselves against both cases, we should be forced to have mental health profiles conducted to ensure we are of sound mind to subscribe the game? You think CCP would be blamed if you ganked me and I paid you a RL visit, if I used hacking methods to get your details? You think CCP would be blamed if I went to your corp or alliance and obtained the details you had passed out yourself? You think CCP would be blamed for my RL actions because of what you did to me in a video game? Of course not. And you take the risk with every action you take, since you are entering the unknown, against a faceless person who may well be unhinged.
Zybane	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:05:00 - [2483] The largest problem I see with this is the HUGE impact it has had on the game. Not to mention it has supposedly been going on for FOUR years. We are talking trillions of ISK. We are talking corporations and alliances playing the game for free (game time cards anyone), free ships and free ways to wage war for four years. While us normal players working our butts off for isk to play this game, there were tons of people running around with virtual unlimited funds doing as they pleased. The entire Eve landscape could be affected by this exploit.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:14:00 - [2484] Originally by: Cadela Fria This isn't a question about international law and I find it amusing that you think it is, very amusing. This is a question about what CCP is obligated to do in regards to you as a customer regarding the service they provide you. Which is very little - You aren't as important as you think you are. As for transparency, that's largely a matter of "eye of the beholder". I played EVE since 2004 and I know I've never experienced this much transparency and find it daunting that we get all this information. No other company in the same business area as CCP, would do this I guarentee you. I have yet to experience CCP not deliver what they promise...not even in this case. There simply isn't anything they promised you that they haven't delivered. If you say "more transparency" I'm going to laugh, because "more transparency" is no absolute and is also extremely vague. As far as they are concerned, they already provided you with what they promised..if you don't agree, tough beans, nothing you can do about it. Please though, by all means..be another one of those whackjobs that tries to hold CCP accountable by legal means like lawsuits and stuff, go ahead, I dare you, cause you won't own up if you go that route. If you are satisfied with the services good for you. I am not, and I am sure many have similar positions. And CCP has indeed failed to deliver several aspects they promised in their advertisements, one of them being transparency as spoken in the blogs. and you just have to read the manual for a LOT more. Unlike trust, transparency is boolean. You either have it or you don't. And I don't discard the possibility of suing. I play this game for a little more than 2 years. Payed them about USD$ 1500,00 counting 4 accounts. Considering that I can likely find in the player base of hundred thousands around 1000 people interested in moving a class action, we could as well inflict a damage of 3-4 million dollars which would be consirably bigger than the 12.5K lost in revenue by the 70 accounts banned, don't you think. You can try to ridicule it as much as you can. I assure you CCP is not laughing at the possibility. Bad advertisement, is bad advertisement. It doesn't matter if it is regarding softdrinks, soaps, medical care, or a game. It is still an illegal practice. Quote: You could make an educated guess based on a couple of times. Like, what would it be if it ran so and so many years, now what if it only ran 1 year, or 6 months..that way you have all kinds of bases covered. The real answer though won't be known until CCP finishes datamining and processing the data..for that you're just going to have to wait, cause it wont happen any faster just because you throw a little tantrum. So I don't have all the information I need right? So your implication that I had all the data I needed in the number of POSes taken down was completely ridicule, right? Good that we came to an agreement on this. Quote: I really wish I didn't have to do this..I really don't want to..but I can only assume at this point you have absolutely no idea about how IA works in most companies, in the real world. This just isn't "Etho Demerzel" world, as much as you want it to be. I don't know how else to say this. I'm sorry.. You assume to much. As usual. The only one who lives in his own Pollyanna's world, where companies are nice and honest on their own volition, even at the cost of their profits and/or images sometimes, and emplyees never do anything wrong as long as you trust in them , is you, my friend. I live in the cold real world. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:17:00 - [2485] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 19:17:45 Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 19:17:22 Originally by: Etho Demerzel That is called ad nauseam fallacy. In the absence of any possible argumen you keep repeating the same thing again and again. No that's called denial on your part..It is as simple as I said. If you refuse to accept it, theres nothing I can do to change that. Originally by: Etho Demerzel And this is called dodging the question. There is absolutely no semantical discussion in my questions. I just said that trust is not boolean. It is not as if you must have absolute trust or don't. Do you give your bank account information and password to your friends and leave them with your bank card? Do you sign blank checks to pay your employees and let them fill those checks? There are degrees of trust. And you fail to understand this. Whether or not theres "degrees of trust" and what they are, is semantical to the specific scenario. Therefor your whole argument falls apart. No, I don't give my bank information and password and bank card to my friends, because I don't have a reason to do so..do I trust them with it? Yes I do. Maybe you don't know what real friendship is, but maybe one day you'll experience it. No I don't sign blank checks, nobody does..it's an unrealistic example and thus a waste of time. Heres a symbolic cookie for you though, chew on it a bit: I will bet you $100 right here and now, honestly and truthfully, that the CEO of CCP does not fill out the paychecks for CCP employees. His employees that are hired to do so, does..does he look them over the shoulder all the time? No he doesn't. Why? Because he trusts them to do their job. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Well, for less than people trust the government they do trust it more than they trust private companies. Unless they are stupid that is. And the government can be audit too. Everybody has the right to, and the press do it all the time. All information regarding it is public knowledge. The press have lied plenty of times before..so has the government, and private companies, and customers have too..who do we turn to??? What about the people doing the auditting? Who audits them? What about the people that audit the ones that audit the government? Who audits you? Who audits the ones auditting you? You're grasping for straws and have no idea what you're dealing with. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Man, if you pee in your shoes, like a dog, you should look for a doctor... I have a female dog named Sorte, it doesn't pee in shoes, never has..was that your spin that just went out the window? Yes, yes it was. You're still peeing ON your own shoes. Originally by: Etho Demerzel I have my own company, and I wouldn't really be even slightly annoyed to lose 0.1% of my monthly income, thank you. I also do jobs for several large companies, and I can assure you that 0.1% of their income is irrelevant compared to their public image. They spend for 5-8% only in advertisements... I rest my case..you're your own proof of having absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:21:00 - [2486] Originally by: Cadela Fria Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that theres people blaming CCP and saying this is all CCP's fault, and CCP have lost our faith in them, and CCP must do things to regain our trust ...Yet it's the players who found an exploit, abused it and kept it secret so they could gain an unfair advantage - Shouldn't it be us who have to do something so that CCP regains their trust and faith in us?..I'm just saying. If you are one of the cheaters, sure. But if they gave you the chance they were much nicer to you than they were with those 70 banned guys. As you decided to put yourself in the same sack of those who cheated, with the help of CCP negligence, I should say, I need to ask you. Did you benefit from those cheats? Are you a friend of those guys? Did they transfer ISK to your accounts? You seem to be feeling guilty. Maybe confessing here will help you to atone. Your dear and caring priest, Etho ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:23:00 - [2487] Originally by: Avon I'd keep that in mind while you are doing your best to make them look bad if I were you. Just sayin' Is this a threat? And if it is, are you from CCP? I always knew about BoB associations... Anyways, do you have an explanation already for Sir Molle being unbanned and playing? I am still waiting for your answer. Come one, the public wants to know. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Max Essen Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:29:00 - [2488] Edited by: Max Essen on 20/12/2008 19:30:19 Not sure if this has been addressed or not but, when the 170+ starbases were removed from the game, only folk with knowledge of the the exploit would be in a position to quickly re-establish POSs there to begin legit production ... As I do not recall seeing a list of where these nefarious POSs were located, might this be an indicator to be watched? In any case, I am confidant CCP will unravel what it needs to and I plan to go back to playing EvE as this really no longer concerns me greatly.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:31:00 - [2489] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Avon I'd keep that in mind while you are doing your best to make them look bad if I were you. Just sayin' Is this a threat? And if it is, are you from CCP? I always knew about BoB associations... Anyways, do you have an explanation already for Sir Molle being unbanned and playing? I am still waiting for your answer. Come one, the public wants to know. Oh, I wouldn't dare threaten you. You might get your e-lawyers to sue me. Good luck with your class action against CCP. I'm sure the judge will be outraged to discover that adverts are designed to attract people. Oh, and boolean transparency? wut? I think that is the funniest thing I have ever read. Think about what you are saying. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:31:00 - [2490] Originally by: Etho Demerzel [...] Unlike trust, transparency is boolean. You either have it or you don't. You know ..If you're serious about that...I mean..scratches neck considering what you said earlier about trust..I just don't know what...wow.. You're wrong okay..but at this point since you can't see it yourself how silly your reasoning is, I can't touch you. You win by default. Originally by: Etho Demerzel And I don't discard the possibility of suing. I play this game for a little more than 2 years. Payed them about USD$ 1500,00 counting 4 accounts. Considering that I can likely find in the player base of hundred thousands around 1000 people interested in moving a class action, we could as well inflict a damage of 3-4 million dollars which would be consirably bigger than the 12.5K lost in revenue by the 70 accounts banned, don't you think. You can try to ridicule it as much as you can. I assure you CCP is not laughing at the possibility. Bad advertisement, is bad advertisement. It doesn't matter if it is regarding softdrinks, soaps, medical care, or a game. It is still an illegal practice. Short answer: No you can't, no you won't, and heres the catch - I'm calling your bluff. If by 2009 you succesfully sue CCP (yeah that's right, anything goes), ill give you a free 2ghz laptop. Originally by: Etho Demerzel You assume to much. As usual. The only one who lives in his own Pollyanna's world, where companies are nice and honest on their own volition, even at the cost of their profits and/or images sometimes, and emplyees never do anything wrong as long as you trust in them , is you, my friend. I live in the cold real world. There is no ultimatum for every single working person in the world..there is no "black and white". Your world is black, with you being the only good thing in it. Everything has to go by you, otherwise it's fraudulent. If you had ANY real world experience with IA in a large company, you wouldn't be saying all this.

Korth Nadan	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:34:00 - [2491] The fascinating tidbit of information we do get is that a few people have been using this exploit for a long time and that its probably a bug thats more than four years old. I have always felt that POS are the buggiest piece of Eve, and it seems that was correct. That a few people have been exploiting this for at least 20 months without detection is remarkable, it also makes it clear that it is intentional exploiting of a bug. If this had been one of Eve¦s many "features" lots of people would have used it and it would have been an official secret. Apparently these people knew it was wrong and kept their mouths shut. It would surprise me if CCP truly had found these peoples real mains, if you spend this much time leeching off funds from an exploit I would say its likely that they would mask their EULA breaches behind some fall characters so they could keep playing when this was found out. Paranoia usually pays off.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:35:00 - [2492] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Cadela Fria Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that theres people blaming CCP and saying this is all CCP's fault, and CCP have lost our faith in them, and CCP must do things to regain our trust ...Yet it's the players who found an exploit, abused it and kept it secret so they could gain an unfair advantage - Shouldn't it be us who have to do something so that CCP regains their trust and faith in us?..I'm just saying. If you are one of the cheaters, sure. But if they gave you the chance they were much nicer to you than they were with those 70 banned guys. As you decided to put yourself in the same sack of those who cheated, with the help of CCP negligence, I should say, I need to ask you. Did you benefit from those cheats? Are you a friend of those guys? Did they transfer ISK to your accounts? You seem to be feeling guilty. Maybe confessing here will help you to atone. Your dear and caring priest, Etho No I'm not a cheater, but I'm still laughing at you..
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:43:00 - [2493] Quote: No that's called denial on your part..It is as simple as I said. If you refuse to accept it, theres nothing I can do to change that. Keep repeating it. At some point I am sure it will become true, or not... Quote: Whether or not theres "degrees of trust" and what they are, is semantical to the specific scenario. Therefor your whole argument falls apart. I see you fail to understand the meaning of the word "semantical". Please let us know what do you mean by it. Maybe your statement can be made remotely understandable. Quote: No, I don't give my bank information and password and bank card to my friends, because I don't have a reason to do so..do I trust them with it? Yes I do. Maybe you don't know what real friendship is, but maybe one day you'll experience it. Then you do give them or not? Don't dodge it with lame excuses. But let me answer this to you. No you don't, because your trust in them extends only so far. You can never trust anyone completely. Quote: No I don't sign blank checks, nobody does..it's an unrealistic example and thus a waste of time. Nobody does because nobody trusts anybody completely. Quote: Heres a symbolic cookie for you though, chew on it a bit: I will bet you $100 right here and now, honestly and truthfully, that the CEO of CCP does not fill out the paychecks for CCP employees. His employees that are hired to do so, does..does he look them over the shoulder all the time? No he doesn't. Why? Because he trusts them to do their job. Most certainly he does not. And I am quite sure the people who sign those checks have all the checks they sign checked periodically and the money they pay accounted for. And if they do something wrong with it they would not only be fired but also legally prosecuted. Now if only CCP could extend the policies they have regarding their own money to their game as well... Quote: The press have lied plenty of times before..so has the government, and private companies, and customers have too..who do we turn to??? What about the people doing the auditting? Who audits them? What about the people that audit the ones that audit the government? Who audits you? Who audits the ones auditting you? Ultimatelly to ourselves. We have the right and the duty to check if thoise we helped to ellect are doing a good job. And to speak up if they don't. nd even if the press may lie, it is still better to have a lot of different people with a lot of different interests looking at something than a few people with a single interest. Quote: You're grasping for straws and have no idea what you're dealing with. Your limited mind is unable to grasp the concept of relativity. For you everything must be absolute. For you: - Trust is absolute. It exists oir it does not. There is no such a thing as limited trust; - if you can't be 100% sure that the government, a company or any other institution is corruption free by auditing, it is pointless to do so. For you there is absolutely no difference between 99% sure that the corruption in the government is minimum, and completely clueless about what the hell the government is doing. Quote: I have a female dog named Sorte, it doesn't pee in shoes, never has.. I am intrigued by this information. Now a question, do you pee on shoes then? Is that where you taken this unusual and fascinating expression from? Maybe this can help you: Pee assistance Quote: I rest my case..you're your own proof of having absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Yes, because I disagree with you, and proved you are talking crap. That should be forgidden by law! ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:45:00 - [2494] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 19:53:17 Originally by: Avon dodgy stuff Any news about that question regarding Sir Molle? Still waiting... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:53:00 - [2495] Originally by: Cadela Fria You know ..If you're serious about that...I mean..scratches neck considering what you said earlier about trust..I just don't know what...wow.. You're wrong okay..but at this point since you can't see it yourself how silly your reasoning is, I can't touch you. You win by default. You know what is the difference between we two? Silly as it may be for you I still have at least some reasoning. You do not. Quote: Short answer: No you can't, no you won't, and heres the catch - I'm calling your bluff. If by 2009 you succesfully sue CCP (yeah that's right, anything goes), ill give you a free 2ghz laptop. Law suits usually take more than this to conclude, and I don't think a 2 GHz laptop would be worth anything even in 2009. Maybe you could raise the bet a bit. But don't bother, I doubt you would pay it anyways. You would most likely just disappear. But then again that wouldn't be so bad of a prize. Quote: There is no ultimatum for every single working person in the world..there is no "black and white". Your world is black, with you being the only good thing in it. Everything has to go by you, otherwise it's fraudulent. If you had ANY real world experience with IA in a large company, you wouldn't be saying all this. Sorry, but you are the boolean one. The one who defends absolute trust. I rechon the grays in the world. That is why I don't take things for granted, I check them, as anyone in a position of responsability. You on the other hand does not seem to be smart enough to have reached any position above of grunt, most likely. What does explain a lot indeed. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:00:00 - [2496] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 20/12/2008 18:48:47 Originally by: Feyd'Rautha Harkonen Edited by: Feyd''Rautha Harkonen on 20/12/2008 18:44:02 Originally by: Avon Lead by example Feyd'Rautha, name all your character/alts and any warnings they may have been given by CCP, either in-game or on the forums. How about you take your own advice? You BoBites have more to prove to the community at large then I do when it comes to exploits. Didn't think so. Either we're all in or we're not; that's how a fair and equitable system works. What are you afraid of anyway? If any thing you in BoB have tons to game from a system like this. When the Goons accuse you of cheating you could go grab the names of all their exploiters and say 'back at ya!' I don't see anything but gain for you as an alliance under a system like this. I didn't see your list. I guess that means you are in fact against public disclosure? Quote: Didn't think so. Either we're all in or we're not; that's how a fair and equitable system works. That was exactly my point, but it seems that as you have decided that you don't want to get involved it is rather hypocritical for you to call for others to be named. How is that the same? We are talking about banned accounts, in addition to the fact that those banned accounts named are those who exploited the system and cheated others. I think you've lost the plot with this post!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:05:00 - [2497] Originally by: Squirrrel How is that the same? We are talking about banned accounts, in addition to the fact that those banned accounts named are those who exploited the system and cheated others. I think you've lost the plot with this post! So it's okay to cheat a little bit, or break some rules, and that can stay secret .. but if you get banned it should be made public? Is that what you are saying? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:09:00 - [2498] Originally by: Avon So it's okay to cheat a little bit, or break some rules, and that can stay secret .. but if you get banned it should be made public? Is that what you are saying? I dunno. Can you ask Sir Molle, please? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Th0rG0d	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:14:00 - [2499] I am confused I am a new player to Eve, and a new player to any MMO game for that matter. So please help me to understand it. If something is written into code, been used from the beginning, how can it be considered an exploit? Prove that the people who have been using these POS's from the beginning didn't just think that was how it was supposed to be? Do you have documents detailing that they knew what was happening wasn't right? Do you have other corrospondance to that effect? Maybe instead of banning accounts, you should be firing your programers, and your testers? Or maybe your whole QA department I would like to see posted proof, that this "exploit" wasn't intentional for the benefit of others from the start. You take action now because someone cryed foul, but is it a "foul" if it is written into the rules (read:code)?
Little Fistter	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:15:00 - [2500] Uh, moderators??? Can we break this into two threads? One is "BLAME GAME" other is "SEEKING SOLUTIONS". Those of us who are clamoring for names and want to know which characters, corporations and alliances may have gained advantage: GET OVER IT! Even if we found out tomottow, it will not un-do your losses. Sure, the cheaters won, but isn't that like real life? Sometimes the undeserving are vistorious. Move On. CCP can not give you your ship back. or your lost implants. Now... We need to make this a better game so this does not happen again! Agreed??? So please, let's be civil, let's speak to the point that matters: How do we make a better Eve? Suggestion: Please color jump gates the same color as the system security rating of the destination system in the overview. *LITTLE FISTTER* Broken Sigs?

Elisriel	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:20:00 - [2501] Originally by: T*G0d I am confused I am a new player to Eve, and a new player to any MMO game for that matter. So please help me to understand it. If something is written into code, been used from the beginning, how can it be considered an exploit? Prove that the people who have been using these POS's from the beginning didn't just think that was how it was supposed to be? Do you have documents detailing that they knew what was happening wasn't right? Do you have other corrospondance to that effect? Maybe instead of banning accounts, you should be firing your programers, and your testers? Or maybe your whole QA department I would like to see posted proof, that this "exploit" wasn't intentional for the benefit of others from the start. You take action now because someone cryed foul, but is it a "foul" if it is written into the rules (read:code)? There is no code on earth that has been written that has been flawless and fool proof. Every game since the days of DOS has had bugs or exploits. Exploits aren't cheats like up-down-up-down-left-right-left-right-abab-start. Exploits are when a player finds a faulty string of code, knows for a fact it's not how things are supposed to play out, but instead of reporting it they ride it for all it's worth. Some exploits are hard to catch. Especially considering the billions of line of code required for a game the size of EVE. All that has to happen is a single variable be off, and you can have a game-breaking exploit. Remember, programmers are only human. I'd hate to see you judged by your own harsh standards in every area of -your- life.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:23:00 - [2502] Originally by: Etho Demerzel I see you fail to understand the meaning of the word "semantical". Please let us know what do you mean by it. Maybe your statement can be made remotely understandable. Semantics: concerns what words mean and how these meanings combine in sentences to form sentence meanings. That you want to explain the full color of degrees of trust, is irrelevant to the specific scenario, thus what you're debating is semantics. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Then you do give them or not? Don't dodge it with lame excuses. But let me answer this to you. No you don't, because your trust in them extends only so far. You can never trust anyone completely. I didn't dodge, learn to read, and then read it again: NO, - I - DO - NOT - GIVE - MY - BANK - INFORMATION - TO - MY - FRIENDS. I - HAVE - NO - REASON - TO - DO - SO. But let's pretend I did have a reason to do so, whatever it might be, then yes, I would do so..Because I do fully trust my friends. I'm sorry you've never had real friends though. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Most certainly he does not. And I am quite sure the people who sign those checks have all the checks they sign checked periodically and the money they pay accounted for. And if they do something wrong with it they would not only be fired but also legally prosecuted. No the checks aren't checked periodically, however all of finance is checked anually..and yes, if they do something wrong, they'll get fired. The point is though, the CEO trusts the employees to do their job and if he had doubts, he'd fire them, I guarentee you. Which is the point, which deflates your entire approach as worthless. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Now if only CCP could extend the policies they have regarding their own money to their game as well... I'd wager a confident guess that they have..their policies do extend to that game. It's just handled internally and not by you. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Rest of the stuff... Yes, because I disagree with you, and proved you are talking crap. That should be forbidden by law! You know what forget it, I'm stopping here, you're not worth my time..you're right, I am talking crap..
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:31:00 - [2503] Edited by: Avon on 20/12/2008 20:31:50 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Then you do give them or not? Don't dodge it with lame excuses. But let me answer this to you. No you don't, because your trust in them extends only so far. You can never trust anyone completely. My wife and I have a joint bank account, and shared credit cards. I have given my mates my cashpoint card and pin number before, and probably would again. I trust them. If they did rip me off my main concern wouldn't be the loss of my money, but the loss of a friend. If I didn't trust my friends they wouldn't be my friends, they would be acquaintances. I feel sorry for you that you have found no-one in life you can trust. It must be lonely being you. Actually, maybe that explains your posts somewhat. I'm sorry. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:32:00 - [2504] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 20:32:31 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Law suits usually take more than this to conclude, and I don't think a 2 GHz laptop would be worth anything even in 2009. Maybe you could raise the bet a bit. But don't bother, I doubt you would pay it anyways. You would most likely just disappear. But then again that wouldn't be so bad of a prize. Before I let you go entirely sir, no..I won't disappear, I stand by what I say and I swear truthfully here and now I'll pay up if you succed in the bet. I'll even give the laptop to Chribba if I have to. Take it or leave it..it's your credibility on the line, not mine.
Th0rG0d	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:34:00 - [2505] Thank you for your reply, this is my last word on this. It is good that we aren't judged like this in real life the way CCP is doing. Imagine if you took advantage of a "legal loophole" and you were just killed once it was found out. Maybe CCP should just fix the code, and take some assets and isk from the parties involved. Or, maybe release the names and alliances involved, and let the fellow gamers decide. Then if they choose to leave, they do so on their own. Banning accounts completely seems harsh to me, especially for something that has been around for 4 years. And I am sure that ^^you^^ couldn't give me the answer, but I'll ask again. PROVE, beyond a reasonable doubt, that all the banned offenders KNEW they were taking advantage of an "exploit". If it has been exploitable from the beginning, you would have nothing to compare it to. So, who is judging harshly? I am not being harsh, I am just saying, before you "fire" your profit, maybe you should take an internal look at some people who have the skills/duty to recognize such "exploits".
Killer Gandry Caldari Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:35:00 - [2506] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Nobody does because nobody trusts anybody completely. Uhm... please mown your own lawn, I actually have people, even in this game which I trust completely. Sp please refer from making statements which aren't backed up by 100% proof or just call them figments of your imagination, drunk man tales or just your personal point of vieuw. Thank you
Nena	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:36:00 - [2507] Why do people use banks in there arguments?? Have people been play EvE too long or are they living under a stone. Personally I wouldn't trust any bank at the minute.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:40:00 - [2508] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Squirrrel How is that the same? We are talking about banned accounts, in addition to the fact that those banned accounts named are those who exploited the system and cheated others. I think you've lost the plot with this post! So it's okay to cheat a little bit, or break some rules, and that can stay secret .. but if you get banned it should be made public? Is that what you are saying? I thought you were asking a character that is currently posting - therefore not perma-banned - to reveal all their alts and ingame information, in relation to those that exploited and got banned. Did I miss a post?
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:45:00 - [2509] CCP should post the names of the banned char so everyone knows who has been naughty.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:48:00 - [2510] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 20:51:30 Originally by: Cadela Fria Semantics: concerns what words mean and how these meanings combine in sentences to form sentence meanings. That you want to explain the full color of degrees of trust, is irrelevant to the specific scenario, thus what you're debating is semantics. Wrong. "Lets not talk about Semantics" can be used to say that there are no meaningful distinction between two ways of saying the same thing. Like in when you are saying "the medication killed the patient" and I am saying "no, it contributed to her death". In this case you could actually say, lets not talk about semantics, because we would be basically saying the same, just in different ways. Now in THIS case, you are saying "Trust is an absolute thing you either have it or not. For you to contract an employee you need to trust him completely." and I m saying "Trust is relative. A company that does not police their employees, even if it had trust enough in them to contract them, is being negligent.". We are arguing completely antagonistic points. There is no way to stretch those two viewpoints in a way that makes possible to pledge that the difference between them is so small that it is purely semantic. This may help you further to understand how wrong you are about the use of this word: Semantics Quote: I didn't dodge, learn to read, and then read it again: NO, - I - DO - NOT - GIVE - MY - BANK - INFORMATION - TO - MY - FRIENDS. I - HAVE - NO - REASON - TO - DO - SO. But let's pretend I did have a reason to do so, whatever it might be, then yes, I would do so..Because I do fully trust my friends. I'm sorry you've never had real friends though. Well, you have no reason not to either. The moment you really DO it, please let me know. Until them I will consider this last statement as hypocritical. Quote: No the checks aren't checked periodically, however all of finance is checked anually..and yes, if they do something wrong, they'll get fired. The point is though, the CEO trusts the employees to do their job and if he had doubts, he'd fire them, I guarentee you. Which is the point, which deflates your entire approach as worthless. Yes the checks are checked periodically. And any CEO that is crazy enough to audit the finance department only annually is a short lived one. And here we are back to that thing of absolute trust, aren't we? Would the CEO trust the low level employees with the strategic decisions of the company? Or maybe with the pay checks? No? Then he does not trust them completely. So by your logic he should fire all of them, until he can freely diclose every single secret of the company to all people that work there. Good luck to him! Quote: I'd wager a confident guess that they have..their policies do extend to that game. It's just handled internally and not by you. And you base this cofident guess in? did they disclose any information to you? Oh wait they didn't disclose anything! You are just wild guessing. Quote: you're right, I am talking crap. Finally we agree about something. I am glad we could come to a consensus. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:50:00 - [2511] Originally by: Etho Demerzel and I m saying "Trust is relative. I thought you said it was boolean? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:50:00 - [2512] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 20/12/2008 20:52:57 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Quote: you're right, I am talking crap. Finally we agree about something. I am glad we could come to a consensus. Indeed, same here..now, if you'd be so kind as to agree to the previous wager concerned the lawsuit and laptop as prize if you succeed, then we can move on. I mean..you're a credible man aren't you?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:53:00 - [2513] Originally by: Avon I thought you said it was boolean? I said that transparency is boolean. There is no way to be "half transparent". Trust on the other hand is not. I suggest you read the posts you comment about. Oh and do you have my answer yet? Why is Sir Molle still playing when he disclosed user information and broke the EULA? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:54:00 - [2514] Edited by: Avon on 20/12/2008 20:55:46 Originally by: Etho Demerzel I said that transparency is boolean. There is no way to be "half transparent". Of course there is. (Sorry for the previous post, I just wanted you to do the transparency gag again). Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:58:00 - [2515] Originally by: Cadela Fria Indeed, same here..now, if you'd be so kind as to agree to the previous wager concerned the lawsuit and laptop as prize if you succeed, then we can move on. I mean..you're a credible man aren't you? Hey you are still posting. Didn't you just say you would stop? Oh well, I guess some people can't be taken seriously... Anyways, as I said, it is too low a bet and the time restraints you put are unreal. If and when I decide to do it, I will let you know, so you can make a better proposal. Use the time to think about a good face saving answer. You seem to need it. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:02:00 - [2516] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Etho Demerzel I said that transparency is boolean. There is no way to be "half transparent". Of course there is. (Sorry for the previous post, I just wanted you to do the transparency gag again). If you think so... I can't really refute your logic as none is presented, you see? Anyways, how about answering my question? And while we wait for said answer I will take the liberty of asking one more of you. Is it true that one of the banned corps was a BoB alt corp? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:03:00 - [2517] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Use the time to think about a good face saving answer. You seem to need it. Oh the irony. It wasn't them threatening CCP with a class action law suit, was it? Do you know how stupid that looks? Every day someone does the whole e-lawyer thing, and it just makes them look either really stupid or really immature .. and in some cases, both. So far we have established that you are a very important business man, with their own company, who knows all about advertising, and the law. And we know that because you said it on an internet forum. The same internet forum where you keep telling us not to trust people. Golden. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:13:00 - [2518] Originally by: Avon Oh the irony. It wasn't them threatening CCP with a class action law suit, was it? Do you know how stupid that looks? Every day someone does the whole e-lawyer thing, and it just makes them look either really stupid or really immature .. and in some cases, both. So far we have established that you are a very important business man, with their own company, who knows all about advertising, and the law. And we know that because you said it on an internet forum. The same internet forum where you keep telling us not to trust people. Golden. Man, you should take your pills. There is a clear distinction between, listing your options and threatening. I was talkign to a player about it in a forum, it is not as if I sent a letter to ccp CEO making a threat. There are several options open for me and anyone bothered enough with how things are handled here before quitting and/or suing. For the time being I am quite happy with those I am exerting. You on the other hand did not answer my questions yet. Your silence speaks lots about you and your alliance. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:29:00 - [2519] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Your silence speaks lots about you and your alliance. No, it says nothing. That is kinda the defining feature of silence. What you are hearing are those little paranoid voices in your head. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
entropies agent	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:35:00 - [2520] I see you guys sniping about corps. and auditing and trust etc. And having a Quote fest. You are laboring in absolutes with your arguments...there are many...many corps. in this RL world..and they are run by PEOPLE..people being as they are they run their corp. as they see fit. Some CEO's run what is called a "tight" ship..even some to the point of being anally retentive about it..they run with the motto "trust no-one". In a financial institution this is probably the best type of CEO,CFO or COO to have..people being as they are get tempted by money and will do crazy things...that "anal retentiveness" will catch the culprit sooner and weed them out before too much damage is done..rememeber they are a financial institution (OTHER PEOPLES MONEY). I work for a Vegas casino when it comes to the money either on the floor..at the tables..or in the cages/back count rooms..EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE is under CONSTANT observation..you pick your nose..they know about it. This is good, and those that took those jobs know what they are in for and agreed to it. I however work in a restaurant..it is a sometimes hectic and rushed affair in a restaurant..the supervisors can't watch you every single minute..there is a certain amout of trust implyed in my job. The room chef and exec chef have dealt with me..know I know what the hell I'm doing and let me do what I do best..make great grub for the peaps. The chef trusts me enough to come to him if there is some problem that needs his attention. This is a more relaxed corp. setting. However! we too have quarterly evaluations..they touch base with us telling us how we doing as individuals and as a group and we have a 6 mnth survey they goes the other way..we tell them how they are doing as a boss. So to point: you are both right and both wrong CCP in the past was way to trusting of some of its employees..they tried to run a relaxed atmosphere (tends to work best with all the programmers I've ever known) but unfortunately that relaxed management overlooked some of the employee/customer dynamics that ran the game (the BPO hand out scandel for one) they addressed that (some say poorly)to whatever degree they felt as a corp. they should. To the current problem: some are screaming for blood.."hang them, name them, ban them" etc. others are saying "if it was going for 4 yrs. how much of a exploit was it?" others just want " da specifics man..i want facts and I want them now!" KK..to ban someone or name them they need facts..you need info that you can look at and see just what the bad guys did...this takes time..think of how many transactions you did in the market in the last yr. and then multiply that by all the player base. Thats how much crap the GM's have to sift through..IT TAKES TIME! About the was it a exploit crowd..umm yeh..the bad guys set out to use something that wasn't intended to work that way to get a unfair advantage over you and me..thats the very definition of what a exploit is. So you think "but is banning called for? just take back the stuff!" A. the stuff may not be there anymore to "take" B.they knew going in that what they was doing was wrong..CCP's ultimate threat for breaking TOS is ban...they broke TOS so CCP banned. I even saw one poster say "but maybe the player didn't know it was a exploit" either you was one of them or you are what is kindly called "slow" if your ship has 6 high slots and you can fit 8..you are exploiting..and if you tell your buddies how to do the same thing you are a exploiter and conspiritor to encourage others to exploit, thats why the corps. where banned..they where "exploit corps" thats my 2 cents worth......wait with all the mats prices going up now im going to need double that at least! so my 4 cents worth :)

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:49:00 - [2521] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 21:49:39 Originally by: entropies agent excellent post. Thank you for bringing this discussion back to its trails. I agree with most of what you wrote, if not all. And I also happen to disagree with bannings. I am more worried about having the results of the exploit, the resources gained throught it, undone, enough information to know it was really dealt with, and enough information to better understand what was the impact it had over 0.0 sovereignties and other game aspects. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Hroya Gallente StrikerCorp	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:55:00 - [2522] Thank you for the update CCP and good luck with the ongoing investigation eventhough it's allmost joy joy holliday season. I trust the outcome of the investigation will be as fair as possible according to the EULA set by your company.
Dashboard Hard Rock Cafe	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:00:00 - [2523] What a tedious playground hair-pulling contest this thread has become.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:05:00 - [2524] Originally by: Dashboard What a tedious playground hair-pulling contest this thread has become. The weird part is that it seems interesting enough for you to have read it, and even posted in it. So at the very least one shoudl infer that you do appreciate hair-pulling contests... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Zybane	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:14:00 - [2525] After CCP's investigation is over, they need to FULLY disclose their findings. When it started, who was involved, what the impact to the game was/is. They can't just say "oops, we found a problem and we fixed it" and be done with it.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:29:00 - [2526] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Etho Demerzel This while they let SirMolle post real life information about people in this forum without consequences. Nice isn't it? Not that you are really interested in facts that upset your little deluded conspiracy, but Sir Molle did indeed suffer consequences for breaking the forum rules, exactly in line with the stated forum policies. You aren't upset that he recieved special treatment, but rather that he didn't. I don't see why you always seem to ignore the question Etho puts to you about this. We are interested in facts, please give us the facts.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:37:00 - [2527] Originally by: Cadela Fria Do I really have to go fetch the EULA and TOS I'm still wondering where it mentions all this in the EULA or TOS...
Yumikora	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:38:00 - [2528] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 20:08:09 Nobody does because nobody trusts anybody completely. Excuse me? I trust several persons completely. Your statement is false, and borderline insulting. Would it be too much to ask you to keep such sweeping and incorrect generalizations to yourself, or at the very least clearly state them as being your personal opinion? It would probably make your other arguments appear more credible. (Also, a tip in all friendliness - take it or ignore it, as you wish, naturally: You might want to consider toning down the arrogance a notch or two. The effect would most likely be quite positive for what you're trying to achieve.) Thank you, and good luck with your future posts. The thread is interesting. It would be nice if it could continue in a constructive manner.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:46:00 - [2529] Originally by: Little Fistter Edited by: Little Fistter on 20/12/2008 20:19:08 Uh, moderators??? Can we break this into two threads? One is "BLAME GAME" other is "SEEKING SOLUTIONS". Those of us who are clamoring for names and who want to know which characters, corporations and alliances may have gained advantage: GET OVER IT! Even if we found out tomorrow, it will not un-do your loss! Sure, the cheaters won, but isn't that like real life? Sometimes the undeserving are victorious. Move On. CCP can not give you your ship back, or your lost implants, or Quafe shipment, or boatload of Dolls. Now... We need to make this a better game so this does not happen again! Agreed??? So please, let's be civil, let's speak to the point that matters: How do we make a better Eve? Thank you. Seeking solutions... How do we make a better Eve? What do you have in mind?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:04:00 - [2530] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 23:05:06 Originally by: Yumikora Originally by: Etho Demerzel Nobody does because nobody trusts anybody completely. Excuse me? I trust several persons completely. Your statement is false, and borderline insulting. Would it be too much to ask you to keep such sweeping and incorrect generalizations to yourself, or at the very least clearly state them as being your personal opinion? It would probably make your other arguments appear more credible. You may believe in whatever you wish. If the dellusion that complete interpersonal trust exists helps you to cope with life, please suit yourself. But the hard truth is that it does not, no matter how much the idea may offend you. Quote: (Also, a tip in all friendliness - take it or ignore it, as you wish, naturally: You might want to consider toning down the arrogance a notch or two. The effect would most likely be quite positive for what you're trying to achieve.) Arrogance is in the eyes of the observer. Personally I find it extremelly arrogant on your part to try and give me directions about how I should or should not write. Quote: Thank you, and good luck with your future posts. The thread is interesting. It would be nice if it could continue in a constructive manner. So do I, so do I. I assure you that I prefer to discuss things relevant about this topic, not phylosophical concepts like absolute trust, or subjective perceptions of arrogance. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:15:00 - [2531] I won't go as far as to say the notion of not trusting anyone is insulting, however I must say I don't agree with it. I know people I trust, and would trust with anything. Saying that, corporations and those who can gain from me in some manner - I tend to distrust as much as reasonably possible whilst still getting a service, however the trust can diminish from a reasonable level depending on circumstance. It's easier to trust individuals than bodies, since you can be dealing with multiple people you have never met even after the inital trust has been established.
suza M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:17:00 - [2532] I have to admit that I did not get through all 85 pages, but life if tooo short. However, I did like the requests for names of those caught. Would I like to know, hell yes, I too am a nosy git. Does it matter if I don't, well, no, so if it's CCP's policy not to release them, so be it. There will always be an exploit to find and people willing to take advantage of them. Remember there are likely to be more people trying to exploit the loopholes than CCP has to plug them. For those of us who was there at the pos release in 2004 will remember how crap and buggy they were. That there has been a bug like this is not much of a surprice, that they did not spot it with all the other hundreads of pos bugs is little surprice. The fact that petitions went missing is not a surprise either. In my time I remember 3 occations (two around the launch of RMR) when the petition system collapsed and was reset wiping out all recorded petitions. Lastly, should you trust CCP like a friend, hell no. You don't know them and you are nothing more than a user name and password to them. That does not mean you should distrust the, just leave them neutral as a business relationship should be. Would I give my bank details to a friend, of course not, they are my friends, not my wife - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for Killing!
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:20:00 - [2533] Originally by: suza I have to admit that I did not get through all 85 pages, but life if tooo short. However, I did like the requests for names of those caught. Would I like to know, hell yes, I too am a nosy git. Does it matter if I don't, well, no, so if it's CCP's policy not to release them, so be it. There will always be an exploit to find and people willing to take advantage of them. Remember there are likely to be more people trying to exploit the loopholes than CCP has to plug them. For those of us who was there at the pos release in 2004 will remember how crap and buggy they were. That there has been a bug like this is not much of a surprice, that they did not spot it with all the other hundreads of pos bugs is little surprice. The fact that petitions went missing is not a surprise either. In my time I remember 3 occations (two around the launch of RMR) when the petition system collapsed and was reset wiping out all recorded petitions. Lastly, should you trust CCP like a friend, hell no. You don't know them and you are nothing more than a user name and password to them. That does not mean you should distrust the, just leave them neutral as a business relationship should be. Would I give my bank details to a friend, of course not, they are my friends, not my wife Nice post.
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:37:00 - [2534] Taken from another forum NubKnacker wrote: One POS produces 9600 ferrogel per day. 178 POS = 178 x 9600 = 1,708,800 At a conservative sell price of 18k/unit the total isk made from all those POS' in just a single day is 30,758,400,000. Assuming there were only 178 of them ever, 30b+ entered the system per day when those POS' were up. Some people sure got rich off the exploit. WHO do you trust ? in this game many kudo's to CCP for there last update, the fact their being more open does them credit Question ? If this has been exploited on a massive scale. A is it feasible to ban so many accounts I.E. gameplay and monetary loss B will this effect the implementation of tech III I.E. if the supply of parts so far has been due to this exploit. Is tech II feasible at this point
Ssnakezor	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:04:00 - [2535] From what I've managed to analyze, some people played for free, others payed a monthly subscription. Others wasted good time in order to make ISK for GTC's while others played nicely with the POS. Some people payed, others didn't. This bug surely explains what Halada once stated in his mining guide. Quote : The demand for them only raised, which means at one point the price for a Hulk actually touched the 500mil ISK figure. However, these days they cost closer to 100 million, making them far more affordable. I guess that the economic crysis finally hit EVE.
Dashboard Hard Rock Cafe	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:26:00 - [2536] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Dashboard What a tedious playground hair-pulling contest this thread has become. The weird part is that it seems interesting enough for you to have read it, and even posted in it. So at the very least one shoudl infer that you do appreciate hair-pulling contests... Of course. The POS exploit is of wide interest. The tiresome tit-for-tat garbage, however, is not. I knew things were bad when, on skimming through, folks like you were ****ing about fighting over terminology. Paging mods to this thread.
Bird Free University of Caille	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:51:00 - [2537] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 01:03:48 Originally by: Bird Free 1) Why? What would you gain from that? Aren't they banned and therefore not playing the game? Would you like to spit on their faces? 2) You have the data. 178 POS, some running multiple reactions were using to exploit. Do the math. 3) From the news: "We have also banned all those we have found directly involved and all accounts we have found to be connected to those players." Isk donation is a connection ja? And trade and contracts and ejected cans... 4) It will probably lead to your character in one of those links 5) delete 1) I gain the ability to check and see for myself if those people were really banned, if they are alts of people I know and if those chars were banned as well, as they should. I also gain at the final of the process enough information to see if it went as deep as it should, and if it got the big fishes as well as a bunch of alts. 2) Those 178 POSes are irrelevant next to the amount of ISK these guys made, even in the timid figures from CCP which refer only to their direct market activity selling ferrogel in the last year. 3) If they say they did it should be true right? How about showing us who they banned so we can see for ourselves if it is really the truth? I find highly unlikely they went anywhere as deep as they should, but isn't it convenient for them that we can't check to see if I am right or wrong? To see if they really did something or not? What kind of transparency is this? 4) I have no fear whatsover of this happening. You on the other hand seems to be afraid of something... 1) So you see peoples' account status? Furthermore, if they are alts of people you know, aren't you connected to them - therefore deserving a ban? 2) I'm not referring to the peanuts value of the POSes themselves - but the reactions those POSes produced. 3) You can't see whether characters are banned or not - or do you have some magic CCP access that the rest of us don't? 4) How do you infer that I am afraid?
LeninLemming Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:52:00 - [2538] wouldn't have been a complete year of EvE in '08 without some form of scandal. Classic inept CCP.
Darwin's Market	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:58:00 - [2539] Hopefully less cheaters playing eve free with isk4gtc will mean a small price plunge due lost demand, same with character prices.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:03:00 - [2540] Edited by: Squirrrel on 21/12/2008 01:05:45 Originally by: Bird Free 1) So you see peoples' account status? Nope. Originally by: Bird Free Furthermore, if they are alts of people you know, aren't you connected to them - therefore deserving a ban? Knowing someone does not in itself mean you deserve a ban. If implicated, then sure. Knowing and knowing of should be included in this, and if you know someone is banned or their alt is banned it should follow that as CCP have stated, all their known accounts are banned. Originally by: Bird Free 3) You can't see whether characters are banned or not - or do you have some magic CCP access that the rest of us don't? Yes, the magic of sight. If a character that is banned shows up in game, then you know there is a problem right?

Chrome DPS	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:10:00 - [2541] Originally by: LeninLemming wouldn't have been a complete year of EvE in '08 without some form of scandal. Classic inept CCP. Lenin you are an overcritical yutz.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:14:00 - [2542] Originally by: Bird Free 1) So you see peoples' account status? Furthermore, if they are alts of people you know, aren't you connected to them - therefore deserving a ban? 2) I'm not referring to the peanuts value of the POSes themselves - but the reactions those POSes produced. 3) You can't see whether characters are banned or not - or do you have some magic CCP access that the rest of us don't? 4) How do you infer that I am afraid? 1) I don't understand what you say by people's account status. Those accounts should be banned, so I will be able to see exactly what? And though I was never part of BoB, nor was I involved with them in any way I can account for, I know Shrike is an alt of SirMolle, for example. I have a reasonable list of people's alts extracted from slips people did in this forum, for example, as I am sure many people do as well. So your argument relating knowledge to proximity is moot. 2) The amount of ferrogel those POS produced depends on the time they were up and running. Even if I had this data all I would have would be the total amount of ferrogel produced. There is no way of telling from only this data what happened with the said ferrogel, the ISK and the produced T2 itens. The total amount of resources produced is an important information, but it is insuficient. 3) Well, it is not very hard to check it, you know... If the char names disclosed, in the eventuality they were announced as banned but not banned, someone would spot them in local sooner or later. Furthermore all you need is to include them in your adressbook to see if they are online... 4) People wanting to curtain information are usually afraid of the information they are trying to curtain. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Rylet VanDorn QUANTUM TRIUMVIRATE	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:39:00 - [2543] hi all i have herd from some reliable people that the exploit came in when t2 came in and one player producing all kinds of t2 reactions had sold 30 trillion isk in 2 years. He then quit the game and sold isk for 3 months to make a bunch of cash. I believe that the economy has been fake in these reactions and the price in game on all t2 items has artificaly been kept low.Although due to the giant isk sink invention is at this moment a lot of people have given up on t2 prod so there may be less price fluctuations than ya think but i can say one thing for sure >>> Jump Freighters>>>>> to cost at least 6 bill each and could balance at 7.5 bill considering the amount of t2 mins required to produce.
Vargrh Gallente Quasar Fleet	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:39:00 - [2544] Edited by: Vargrh on 21/12/2008 01:43:21 Edited by: Vargrh on 21/12/2008 01:41:43 It will turn out to be the same dozen or so accounts of the same people involved in every other Epic Exploit, with the full knowledge of at least one if not more employees of CCP. If you review the history of Eve you will see there is always a exploit or bug left to run for a long period of time so a few pet corps/alliances can exploit it long enough to push eve in a certain direction. It has a negligible impact on the game for the majority of players, yet once it becomes public domain, ccp use it as a straw man 'enemy' they can appear to be banning or targetting/investigating thus creating the false impression they are tough on those actively exploiting/selling isk made from exploiting.
SpitfireVI	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:22:00 - [2545] Excuse me? I trust several persons completely. Your statement is false, and borderline insulting Would it be too much to ask you to keep such sweeping and incorrect generalizations to yourself, or at the very least clearly state them as being your personal opinion? It would probably make your other arguments appear more credible. (Also, a tip in all friendliness - take it or ignore it, as you wish, naturally: You might want to consider toning down the arrogance a notch or two. The effect would most likely be quite positive for what you're trying to achieve.) Thank you, and good luck with your future posts. The thread is interesting. It would be nice if it could continue in a constructive manner. You need to keep your personal feelings to yourself because after comparing your and his, you really look like the more arrogant, immature, ignorant type of person who can not simply stand aside and allow others to have their own opinions. Honestly, who cries over that? Well i know one person... thats you. But in all friendliness, take it or leave it naturally: You have defenitly proven your self to be a female. Only a woman would argue like that.
Killer Gandry Caldari Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:04:00 - [2546] Well, I have several people I trust entirely. And guess what. I am not a woman, nor an emo queen or homosexual. I feel sorry for the people who are fully pointed towards not being able to trust anyone completely. They miss a lot in life. But people can smack around as much as they want about that subject. We do live in democracies in the major parts of the world, or atleast in the make believe it's a democracy. And guess what. EVE is not democratic nor will it ever be. Yes we have CSM but they have no vote just a voice. In the end CCP owns all of it, your characters, your gear, your ISK. But instead of giving them time to research through all the data and figure out themselves first what exactly happened is too much to be asked by a lot of people. Well, learn to live with it. I see nowhere in any agreement that CCP is forced by any law to jump to your screams for justice or light your torches in your witchhunt. Most people who complain here about the lack of transparancy should maybe look at their lack of patience to let them scout the data and find information. The fact the exploit was certainly ingame since 2007 and POSSIBLY 2004 doesn't mean it. A: Has been used for a longer period of time because it wasn't ound by anyone yet. B: Only proof I have sofar it has been exploited since 2004 is by the screaming of people who couldn't put down a shred of proof. C: I have nowhere seen any evidence from any playerthat a CCP employee was or is into it. So all I see is a lot of people crying wolf, a load starting to lite the fires for a witchhunt and some who just don't know anything better to do then to fuel the rage of people but contributing nothing towards a solution other then a big yap. I have met the Devs and EVE is their baby. And in no way I will believe they will knowingly and willingly harm their baby. Not because some bushwhackers come with all sort of crap but not a single shred of proof.
Feyd'Rautha Harkonen	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:23:00 - [2547] Quote: I see nowhere in any agreement that CCP is forced by any law to jump to your screams for justice or light your torches in your witchhunt. It's called a bill of sale, and ongoing fees for use of a product. The product is supposed to be fit for a particular purpose, in this case, a game, defined by rules that give anyone a semi-even chance of succeeding. There is clear evidence that that covenant has been breached not only once but multiple times; changes need to be made to ensure that it stops happening again, and to restore our confidence that CCP is delivering a product that is worth my fifteen bucks a month. Naming names shows me that these people were real AND dealt with accordingly. Asking for the names of violators is not a 'witch hunt' a witch hunt is what we have because we don't know them. We wind up pointing fingers at random Alliances (some of whom don't help themselves by backing absolute secrecy..) because WE DON'T KNOW. You can go down to any court in the land, read the records and see WHO is charged with WHAT. There are very, very few circumstances where a municipality hides the identity of the parties in a criminal or civil proceeding in any way; that gives the process legitimacy. Hell, you can go down to the courthouse and watch the trial! If EVE is supposed to be some great online-democracy with an realistic economy and player representatives why does it also not have a justice system to ensure the game is played fairly, and that efforts are made to ferret out exploiters, macros and ISK farmers who ruin the quality of our game? Why are you going to such lengths to try argue for shielding cheaters from public scrutiny? Do you people even hear yourselves or what you're arguing for?
Kva Plexcha	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:10:00 - [2548] Hmm I applied a filter to this 85 page thread - took all the Etho posts out and its only 12 pages long! And actually informative ...! Anyways since you wanted my 2 cents worth (wait this is the net I can force my opinion on you) CCP seems to be making a reasonable effort to determine the extent of the damage. I would prefer names myself, but am appreciative of the data mining they are attempting to do. I think thorough investigations take time and I can wait for the info. I just wish my Ishkur didnt cost me 7 million isk more than it did 2 weeks ago. Ready .. Set .. FLAME!
Win ISK Hedion University	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:39:00 - [2549] CCP. You actually handled this issue well so far. No sneaky tinfoil hat coverups or anything like that. Top job! Hopefully all future errors can be handled with the expertise and grace that this issue was. Seriously. It's refreshing to read the full truth.
Captain Dorja	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:42:00 - [2550] Edited by: Captain Dorja on 21/12/2008 04:43:20 I'm worried that what they do to fix things won't bring the price on t2 ships down, and that things like HACs, HICs, and Recon Ships will go up in price to a level where they aren't worth using, and that it won't come down in price. That would p1ss me off since I've been training for a few months now to finally get a Falcon and the price on one jumps 20 million isk... just like Eve. You finally can do/get something awesome and the price goes up. I love this game, but it likes to r8pe players in the B hole hard sometimes.

Gina Torres	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:10:00 - [2551] Originally by: Captain Dorja Edited by: Captain Dorja on 21/12/2008 04:43:20 I'm worried that what they do to fix things won't bring the price on t2 ships down, and that things like HACs, HICs, and Recon Ships will go up in price to a level where they aren't worth using, and that it won't come down in price. That would p1ss me off since I've been training for a few months now to finally get a Falcon and the price on one jumps 20 million isk... just like Eve. You finally can do/get something awesome and the price goes up. I love this game, but it likes to r8pe players in the B hole hard sometimes. There is a lot more to the price of t2 items than just ferrogel. Research overhead, and the price of the best decryptors is one of the biggest price gouges involved in building t2 ships cruiser and larger.
Karath Piki	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:11:00 - [2552] I call for an independent monitor to be appointed by the UN Security Council to investigate all MMO-exploit related complaints. This individual should be an expert in computer forensics, ideally with a national security agency, and have subpoena powers in all international jurisdictions. As well, discovered exploiters should be brought up on charges in The Hauge for crimes against (digital) humanity. The player base deserves no less.
Wynteryth Fett	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:14:00 - [2553] I've read the first half dozen pages of this thread and I find it truly amazing the reaction of some of you endusers. I have news for you. Unless you are a shareholder, CCP doesn't own you a damn thing for an explanation. Microsoft doesn't tell you when they find a glaring error. They just politely release the fix and are on their merry way. As for the guy whose was all prideful about having used the exploit and such, he's an idiot. Basically admitting that he's a s****bag. If any of you believe that they turned in a Bug Report on something that was a BENEFIT, I have some ocean front property in Montana I'd like to sell you. Also, if he's willing to cheat and lie and steal in a game like this for any length of time, you can't take much of what he says as truth. Now, as for the claim that CCP has been sitting on this for 4 years. I don't believe that. Its much more likely that the PTB truly didn't know about it. It wouldn't have been hard for a CSM/CCP member who had already done favors for a particular corp/alliance, to sweep these aside and not lotg them or anything. Or, take it a step further and just delete them from the system as if they never existed.
D'Insane Shatner Gallente Shatner's Toupee	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:27:00 - [2554] (Note: Yes the news of this exploit was enough to bring the Toupee out of hibernation- smaller corps and alliances may have a chance again) Well, it's nice to see CCP being upfront as to what is happening with the investigation. And I fully support what has been disclosed so far. It would be interesting to try and define what effect the addition of 30 billion isk worth of assets a day had on the economy. Needless to say- it devalued Tech II items. But what a lot of people have missed is that by definition, devaluing Tech II also devalued Tech I. And THAT was a problem. Given the "loose" statistic of an additional 30 billion isk (in non currency assets) injected into the game every day, that translates into an additional 30 billion of market for industry to tap into which was diverted by under-priced reaction products. So the net result of the removal of the "free assets" will result in a portion of that 30 billion per day being redirected at the Tech I market. How much of that 30 billion goes to Tech I industry depends on demand curve elasticity as it relates to a number of markets- which will have inverse relationships to one another. Given that CCP controls the money supply in this game, this particular exploit created an imbalance in the overall economy. CCP's economic person could have dealt with it by lowering the money supply to drive up prices (Speculation). But one thing is for sure: the introduction of "free" assets to the game had a direct effect on the economy which can be measured. And in general, it had a deflationary effect on all goods across all markets. I'd love to see CCP's economist comment on this directly.
Karath Piki	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:28:00 - [2555] Edited by: Karath Piki on 21/12/2008 05:29:01 And my apologies if someone else beat me to the above bit of (small) witticism. One can only read so many heartfelt cries of unfairness about a goddamned game when we have $50 billion Ponzi schemes to cry about in real life. I have never worked for a company that is so open with its client base as CCP is. N-E-V-E-R. Not in retail. Not in the automotive industry. Not in financial circles. And that is aimed at Etho, who brought banks up earlier. AIG acting as its own re-insurer? Yeah, the kind of oversight you talk about happens all the time. Actually, oversight happens like this, in just about every industry. Management gets about a week to a month's notice to get their affairs in order. They clean up the place, shred the documents they shouldn't really have, take the rest home to make sure everything is OK. The inspectors/auditors come in, find the one or two things wrong that were left for them to find (that way they don't have to dig too deep to get something for their reports). They take a dinner with upper management. Perhaps they hit a game or a movie. It's all expensed, and usually picked up by the company being audited. They file their report showing one or two items wrong. The company fixes those things, the auditors re-check and sign off on the corrected problems. The auditors have justified their existences, the company can go back to doing whatever they were doing before. That's what oversight looks like from where I sit. Mostly, it's just a game, whether it's the health department, ISO auditors, or people from the home office making sure your client correspondence doesn't contain anything unapproved. Of course it doesn't, the unapproved stuff is sitting in the filing cabinet next to the one they are looking at, that they aren't allowed to open.
Wynteryth Fett	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:32:00 - [2556] Originally by: God GirlFriend maybe where you live, but some places liek hier you have the legal right to request any information about any person found guilty of any legal infraction and there is obligation to deliver you this information. Don't know where YOU live, but last I looked, the only thing broken was the EULA. And as such, CCP has terminated the accounts of the people who violated that EULA. Could CCP press charges against these people? Maybe. But, until that time, the people banned have not been found to have broken a LAW. And, as such, there is NO OBLIGATION on the part of CCP to deliver to you ANYTHING. And, I am fairly certain that if you tried to get anything through legal channels, you'd be laughed out of court.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 06:51:00 - [2557] Originally by: Wynteryth Fett I've read the first half dozen pages of this thread and I find it truly amazing the reaction of some of you endusers. I have news for you. Unless you are a shareholder, CCP doesn't own you a damn thing for an explanation. Microsoft doesn't tell you when they find a glaring error. They just politely release the fix and are on their merry way. True, CCP has no legal obligation to discluse any information. That is if it does not advertise that it will, like in pledging transparency. If the advertising is made it has the obligation to honor such advertisement though. CCP owes its users a lot of things considering they take our money. They owe us the service we are buying as advertised by them, and nothing less. But the legal obligation point is moot. CCP is a company. A company sole purpose is to make money. The only thing that moves such entities are the perspective of increasing profit, and the fear of decreasing profit. As long as the public relation impact is bad enough to be classified as the second motive, CCP will be forced to do things to prevent it. So it is not a matter of what it is legally obligated to do in the slighly. Negative PR has a cost and it can be very cnvincing in making companies to move. As customers it is our prerrogative to complain and generate such bad PR whenever we are dissatisfied. If enough people are dissatisfied it is usually suficient to make the correction of the issue. Even if it is just a minority of users that are annoyed with the fact, if the reason is strong enough to make into the related press it is usually suficient to produce the necessary pressure. In short the TL/DR version is, we as customers have our ways to demand things of private companies. That is an important lesson to learn in today's World, where each time more the companies treat customers as cash cows and not as people. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Win ISK Hedion University	Posted - 2008.12.21 06:59:00 - [2558] Originally by: Karath Piki I call for an independent monitor to be appointed by the UN Security Council to investigate all MMO-exploit related complaints. This individual should be an expert in computer forensics, ideally with a national security agency, and have subpoena powers in all international jurisdictions. As well, discovered exploiters should be brought up on charges in The Hauge for crimes against (digital) humanity. The player base deserves no less. 11/10. A+++++++++++++ would read again.
Sebastian GZ	Posted - 2008.12.21 08:23:00 - [2559] For the love of Jesus, some of you need to get a life. CCP is running a game they caught a few cheaters and banned them. End of story. Some of you act as if you lost 50 billion dollars (PONZI style). CCP doesn't owe you anything. They reported the problem for two reasons I guess. First to make it clear that exploits won't be tolerated and two that the disappearance of 178 starbases might raise some questions. And stop complaining about the CCP economist, the guy does a good job, many of you act like he is supposed to monitor every lousy transaction. I dont know (or care) what the GDP of Eve is but im willing to bet that 30 billion a day isn't that significant. Give it a rest already
Taua Roqa Minmatar Branching Out	Posted - 2008.12.21 08:44:00 - [2560] nice update, cheers ccp :)

Baerr	Posted - 2008.12.21 08:48:00 - [2561] The EULA is for the protection of the company's profits. From a legal standpoint, the cheaters can be said to have had a negative impact. If the company thought it necessary, and they could prove responsibility (the players agreed to the EULA) and damages (if there are any viable damages?) they certainly could argue the case. But are there any damages? You might argue that the simplicity of cheating in CounterStrike has enhanced the game's popularity or, on the other hand, that cheating was inevitable as a result of the game's popularity and exploitability. Barring a mass exodus of current players, the impact for Eve's case would have to be determined by the number of users that were going to subscribe. That can't feasibly be measured. However, I think CCP has missed the lesson they should pick up from this (or at least they seem to be ignoring it). As long as an exploit exists, some people will use it. Like the gentleman above said, "I have some ocean front property in Montana I'd like to sell you." The punishment of banning the players is like a lock on a door, it only keeps honest people honest. When is CCP going to shoulder some of the responsibility for the holes in their own code. Granted it is complicated, but the entire industry suffers from a "sell first, fix later" modus operandi. This is not reality folks, the game has rules. Without them, rewards don't always come with effort. The exploits and the cheaters together are at fault, and CCP should take that to heart instead of just trying to blow sunshine up our a88s. Just what steps are they intending to take to prevent this from happening again?
Supreme ShadowMaster	Posted - 2008.12.21 09:00:00 - [2562] Originally by: Wynteryth Fett if he's willing to cheat and lie and steal in a game like this for any length of time, you can't take much of what he says as truth. WOW IF I take what you just said to be truthful, then CCP is no better than the person who cheated and lied. I mean, CCP said a certin dev did not give bob any blue prints, then they admited he did do so and they knew about it for 6 months. Then claimed they had no way to go back 6 months to calculate what those people made from having those blue prints. So, IF they couldn't go back 6 months to repair the damage done by that dev. HOW IN GOD's NAME ARE THEY ABLE TO GO BACK 4 YEARS TO SEE AND CORRECT SAID DAMAGES??? when they couldn't go back 6 months??? SO, IS CCP Cheating and Lying to US? should we do as you said "can't take much of what he says as truth"???? I just find it confusing, to me it feels like they decide on how far they can go back and figure the damages based upon who did what rather than how long ago it happened.
KilljoyChaos	Posted - 2008.12.21 10:20:00 - [2563] They can do what they want it's their game btw. GAME being a key word. If they want to just drop the subject they can and there would be nothing anyone could do about it besides B** p* and moan or quit. Which will really get you far in life. They don't owe us anything and as soon as some of you realize that, the sooner you'll get over this starbase thing and get on with your lifes. Just sit back and see what they have to say and stop demanding that they do this and that. Yea we pay to play but that doesnt mean we get to know everything that goes on. If I were them based on what I've seen in this thread I'd drop it and make it an internal matter because most people can't handle it.
Yumikora	Posted - 2008.12.21 10:31:00 - [2564] sigh Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 23:05:06 Originally by: Yumikora Originally by: Etho Demerzel Nobody does because nobody trusts anybody completely. Excuse me? I trust several persons completely. Your statement is false, and borderline insulting. Would it be too much to ask you to keep such sweeping and incorrect generalizations to yourself, or at the very least clearly state them as being your personal opinion? It would probably make your other arguments appear more credible. You may believe in whatever you wish. If the dellusion that complete interpersonal trust exists helps you to cope with life, please suit yourself. But the hard truth is that it does not, no matter how much the idea may offend you. "Delusion", "hard truth"? There is no such thing as a "hard truth" that complete interpersonal trust does not exist. Stop the false statements, or back them up, if you really believe them to be true. I did: I do trust some persons absolutely. This is a fact. You didn't: You stated that such trust does not exist, period. And you did it again, above. That's not a statement of fact, but rather your personal opinion. There's a big difference. As you are well aware. You have now repeated the same mistake. That is not a good way to strengthen your argument. When pointed out with an obvious error you are supposed to not repeat it. And stop with the personal attacks, will you? I don't call you a moron, an idiot, a megalomaniac, a troll, a rambler or anything like that. I pointed out that you made one false statement (and backed it up with fact) and also mentioned that your style can sometimes be perceived as arrogant (and tried to explain that this might be detriment to your goals, and that it thus might be a good idea to change it a bit.) In short, if you decide to: - Stop making false statement (at least after having them pointed out to you) - Stop the personal attacks (ad-hominems have never really helped) - And maybe, just maybe, consider changing your tone somewhat (turns fewer people off) you might find that more people will respond to your posts in the way you want them to. I am assuming that this is what you want. The above is advice (note: not instructions) to help you maximize the effect of your posts. Why would you want to attack that? If you don't want to follow the advice, then just ignore them and move on. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Quote: Thank you, and good luck with your future posts. The thread is interesting. It would be nice if it could continue in a constructive manner. So do I, so do I. I assure you that I prefer to discuss things relevant about this topic, not phylosophical concepts like absolute trust, or subjective perceptions of arrogance. I agree completely. Shall we end this sub-thread and get back on topic?
Deimi	Posted - 2008.12.21 11:38:00 - [2565] Originally by: Yumikora sigh Originally by: Etho Demerzel .... I agree completely. Shall we end this sub-thread and get back on topic? Not a chance, Etho Demerzel have hijacked the thread and made it his own personal playground. Up to 10 posts of him on a single side. Guess we have to take this discussion in another forum so that one could get the voice heard over this unceasing assault by Denerzel. Is it a new forum rule. That for everyone posting something you don't agree on. You should accuse them of being a troll? ;)
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:06:00 - [2566] Originally by: Supreme ShadowMaster Originally by: Wynteryth Fett if he's willing to cheat and lie and steal in a game like this for any length of time, you can't take much of what he says as truth. WOW IF I take what you just said to be truthful, then CCP is no better than the person who cheated and lied. I mean, CCP said a certin dev did not give bob any blue prints, then they admited he did do so and they knew about it for 6 months. Then claimed they had no way to go back 6 months to calculate what those people made from having those blue prints. So, IF they couldn't go back 6 months to repair the damage done by that dev. HOW IN GOD's NAME ARE THEY ABLE TO GO BACK 4 YEARS TO SEE AND CORRECT SAID DAMAGES??? when they couldn't go back 6 months??? SO, IS CCP Cheating and Lying to US? should we do as you said "can't take much of what he says as truth"???? I just find it confusing, to me it feels like they decide on how far they can go back and figure the damages based upon who did what rather than how long ago it happened. Bl**dy good point that!!!! But they seem to be more thorough this time, god bless em QUESTION, has anybody noticed who's been banned ???? other than evoke
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus R.U.R.	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:12:00 - [2567] This may just be a game to many, but it's a game which people have paid for.
Pooka Caldari United Space Aillance USA	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:18:00 - [2568] anybody got a link to who was using th4e exploit and who got banned? woinder if i can make up the cost of invention now sell some T2 stuff instead of just building for myself. PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT BRING THE BRIGHT STAR BACK!!! COUNTRY FIRST
LordMaji	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:14:00 - [2569] Well as CCPs latest release states this bug could have been going on since the introduction of POSs. Most of this crap I couldn't care less about. The people like me asking to know WHO and What alliances want to know out of sheer curiosity. Since I have a life and didn't feel like reading all 80+ pages of this thread I do know know this for certain... Of the ones I did read I see a lot of people pointing fingers at BoB. I also have no love loss for BoB. They are a heaving juggernaught that needs to be spanked. BUT... in this case, shouldn't we also be pointing fingers at Goon? They are, after all, the self proclaimed destroyers of player experiences in MMORPGs. Who else would do something like this that could shift assets on this scale? I for one would like to know who was using the exploit. Just for the hell of it.
mach18	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:30:00 - [2570] Can we have the perpertrators lined up in Jita on Xmas morning so we can snowball them to death? Should be an interesting test for the 'need for speed' initiatives.

Aarn Sakn	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:31:00 - [2571] Very important decision what CCP took. Big impact on EvE Economy. But cheaters must be punished, it's logical.
Baerr	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:59:00 - [2572] Originally by: Aarn Sakn Very important decision what CCP took. Big impact on EvE Economy. But cheaters must be punished, it's logical. I agree. "Very important decision", but they can't actually punish the cheaters to any larger extent. When I read the intro to this "update", I feel like I'm reading the Epic history of Eve. How many times are they going to put their story writers to work on a bedtime story for the rest of the us? I hear the bells ringing in the back of my mind when they write 3 paragraphs of material telling a story that directly contradicts the minutes of their meeting released previously. When they get down to business, they tell us that they have been unable to confirm the one thing in the "exploits category" that might squarely make them partly to blame . They fail to explain why their employees seemed to be aware of the previous warning of the exploit before. To me it seems that this screams that CCP doesn't intend to spend a single dime more than they have to in order to make this go away. And they already have the storytellers on the payroll.
Arthas Wallace	Posted - 2008.12.21 17:45:00 - [2573] Those fools at CCP nerfed invention??? I fail a lot now... maybe they want to minimize the damage of THEIR fault... It's the third time now... i hate to spend a lot of training time then they nerf it... I think they should test things in the TEST server instead of making the mistakes and fixing it, like with missiles and nano...
Zanpt Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.21 18:33:00 - [2574] Originally by: Squirrrel Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Etho Demerzel Go to the ghost trainign thread and you will see the most recent one. I noticed that whining thread. Don't see where CCP lied there. You obviously didn't follow events nor read the thread properly then. Their official statements for the reasoning for the fixing of this "bug" was laughable and changed as time went on and ultimately became about money. I could have stomached that reasoning if they had just said it from the outset instead of tryng to spin it. This. At 197 pages / 5,891 posts, the unsubbed training nerf threadnaught has more than enough clear explanation by various posters to leave no excuse for failing to understand that there was no bug and that there were lies and spin. Anyone who offers uninformed opinions in other threads would be well advised to scan the actual threadnaught and try to acquire a clue or two. Threadnaught Original thread, locked almost immediately
Blood Daemon Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.12.21 18:45:00 - [2575] Originally by: Jukhta Mein This may just be a game to many, but it's a game which people have paid for. You don't pay for this game, not now, not ever!!! You only pay for the service CCP provide. This is their game we populate and play it!.. If CCP one day decided to pull the plug on us all, we can't do **.. no doubt some messed up goof will say "I payed 4 dis geam, u cnt tek it away from meh!!!" CCP have found some cheaters, they have dealt with the cheaters; Let me explain. I know this would've happend to someone, but say when your in work and money is going missing from the tills over time.. The management might not see straight away, but eventually they catch on.. they can't do nothing.. So they wait and then they finally catch the petty theif and all is well, wahoo they found a cheater!!.. Basically this is what has happend at CCP in EVE, apart from this isn't a CCP employee who has done this (no doubt this is what the majority wanted to happen), it's the damn customer who has been coming into your work for the past 4 years that has been stealing the MONEY!!! What I'm trying to say and some of you might of not understood by now. THIS IS NOT CCP'S FAULT. SOMEONE WHO IS PLAYING THEIR GAME HAS CHEATED THEIR WAY THROUGH THE GAME MAKING BILLIONS, IT JUST SO HAPPENS IT TOOK CCP SO LONG TO FIND OUT THAT THERE WAS A PROBLEM. Give the guys a break people, of all the time i've been with this game.. I've seen a few things happen.. And when something does, you always get the same blood hungry mongrels * & moaning at CCP... If you guys want to * and moan about the people who made this game, WHY THE ARE YOU PLAYING IT... If I was in control at CCP I would ban every **er who slated the company who is abiding by the EULA/TERMS. Some people just live for this don't they
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 18:56:00 - [2576] Originally by: Yumikora "Delusion", "hard truth"? There is no such thing as a "hard truth" that complete interpersonal trust does not exist. Stop the false statements, or back them up, if you really believe them to be true. I did: I do trust some persons absolutely. This is a fact. If you believe you do it is your problem, but no, you don't. Quote: And stop with the personal attacks, will you? I don't call you a moron, an idiot, a megalomaniac, a troll, a rambler or anything like that. I pointed out that you made one false statement (and backed it up with fact) and also mentioned that your style can sometimes be perceived as arrogant (and tried to explain that this might be detriment to your goals, and that it thus might be a good idea to change it a bit.) You are the one having a fit because of a phylosophical argument. You are the one who is being emotional over something that should be discussed rationally. And you are the one who decided to insult me by saying you were not going to insult me and then doing it aas shown above. So, my friend, the arrogant megalomaniac who can't stand people having a different opinion than you is you. Quote: In short, if you decide to: - Stop making false statement (at least after having them pointed out to you) - Stop the personal attacks (ad-hominems have never really helped) - And maybe, just maybe, consider changing your tone somewhat (turns fewer people off) you might find that more people will respond to your posts in the way you want them to. I am assuming that this is what you want. - I didn't and I won't make any statement I consider to be false - the one making personal attacks is you, I suggest you take your own advice - And plesase, stop telling people what they should do or say, your arrogance in thinking you know better is amazing Quote: The above is advice (note: not instructions) to help you maximize the effect of your posts. Why would you want to attack that? If you don't want to follow the advice, then just ignore them and move on. The above advice is a personal attack, is extremelly aggressive and arrogant, and you could keep it to yourself. Quote: I agree completely. Shall we end this sub-thread and get back on topic? As soon as you stop to post emotional, irrelevant and aggressive answers. I will provide what is asked of me. If you post arguments about the subject you will receive counter-arguments. If you post flames like this you will receive flames back. The choice is yours. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:06:00 - [2577] Imagine CCP lists names of chars involved. Any number of such chars could be linked to real persons via meetings at fanfest, vent/ts convos and corp forum threads. The risk isn't high but there is a possibility that an angry eve player might then beat up one such cheater. It's understandable that a company won't take that risk - regardless of how small. Especially as they can't win this anyway. Any info they give - there will be some hardcore tinfoilers here who argue that that is just coverup for much worse problems. No BoB/Goon/whatever-power-alliance-you-dustrust names on the list? Coverup again. They destroy 70 accounts? CCP only deleted some alts goes the myth - there must be way more. They destroy 700 - OMG - it must be thousands no doubt. It takes only a very few hardcore tinfoil hat wearers (priding themselves to be on a holy crusade for customer rights - heroes in their own eyes) to keep this going. So - again - CCP can't win by posting names and takes a risk by doing so. So they won't. It's the rational thing to do. Anybody who is convinced that CCP lies about claims to delete accounts and investigating this - cancel your subscription and never give them your credit card details again. I'm satisfied with the services provided for my monthly fee (the equivalent of 2 movies per month - for better than 4 hours of typical movie entertainment), I'm willing to trust their claims. I wouldn't be here otherwise. Also I don't want CCP do spend resources on this beyond banning the primary perps. Such resources would not be spend on fixing bugs or providing features at this time. Anybody who thinks they should not hesitate to waste money on this - remember - we pay for it all. If you want QA and IA on a level otherwise associated with medical equipment suppliers and such - be prepared to pay similar prices. Want to pay $80 per month for best possible QA? I prefer a reasonable compromise appropriate for a game. WB to reality. :-) merry xmas everybody (yes - even the tinfoil brigade ;-) ) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:18:00 - [2578] Originally by: Blood Daemon You don't pay for this game, not now, not ever!!! You only pay for the service CCP provide. This is their game we populate and play it!.. If CCP one day decided to pull the plug on us all, we can't do **.. no doubt some messed up goof will say "I payed 4 dis geam, u cnt tek it away from meh!!!" The service CCP provides is this game. It is not permanent, given, but while our subscriptions last they can't pull the plug without consequences. They can pull the plug at the very momentall subscriptions end, but that would be as smart as Coke stop selling soft-drinks. This is how they make money, my friend, they pull the plug they shoot their own head... Quote: CCP have found some cheaters, they have dealt with the cheaters; They have dealt with some obvious cheaters. We won't know if they went as deep as necessary until they prove it. Quote: I know this would've happend to someone, but say when your in work and money is going missing from the tills over time.. The management might not see straight away, but eventually they catch on.. they can't do nothing.. So they wait and then they finally catch the petty theif and all is well, wahoo they found a cheater!!.. I guarantee you they wont wait 4 years to get the thief. And if the thief stole a significant amount of money they will take other measures against him beside firing. In the real world, in your example, that would be legal measures. In eve it should be the elimination of the resources acquired through this cheating. Which for the rest of the player base is much more relevant that the ban of the cheater in itself. Quote: Basically this is what has happend at CCP in EVE, apart from this isn't a CCP employee who has done this (no doubt this is what the majority wanted to happen), it's the damn customer who has been coming into your work for the past 4 years that has been stealing the MONEY!!! We don't know if CCP employees are involved on this one. By their reticence in releasing character data we can as well suspect there is. Quote: THIS IS NOT CCP'S FAULT. SOMEONE WHO IS PLAYING THEIR GAME HAS CHEATED THEIR WAY THROUGH THE GAME MAKING BILLIONS, IT JUST SO HAPPENS IT TOOK CCP SO LONG TO FIND OUT THAT THERE WAS A PROBLEM. It is CCP's fault neglecting it is game in a way it made possible for the cheaters to do it for 4 years, gathering trillions of ISK in cash and assets, undetected. Quote: Give the guys a break people, of all the time i've been with this game.. I've seen a few things happen.. And when something does, you always get the same blood hungry mongrels * & moaning at CCP... If you guys want to * and moan about the people who made this game, WHY THE ARE YOU PLAYING IT... If I was in control at CCP I would ban every er who slated the company who is abiding by the EULA/TERMS. Eve has had more scandals and graver ones than any MMORPG in the market. The fact that we complain is justifiable by this and by CCP policies that allow such messes to happen in the first place. I play the game because I like the game itself. But I play it in a competitive way. I have issues when the way it is managed makes game breaking cheats like this possible, turning my competitive efforts pointless. Quote:** Some people just live for this don't they Like you, who is not wasting time posting to complain about something you pay for, but who is taking your time to post to complain about the people wh complain about it. Between the two of us, who do you think has more time to waste in useless tasks? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:34:00 - [2579] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 21/12/2008 19:35:53 Originally by: Glengrant Imagine CCP lists names of chars involved. Any number of such chars could be linked to real persons via meetings at fanfest, vent/ts convos and corp forum threads. The risk isn't high but there is a possibility that an angry eve player might then beat up one such cheater. It's understandable that a company won't take that risk - regardless of how small. CCP already disclosed part of those chars. By banning the characters in a corporation from a big alliance like Ev0ke this makes OBVIOUS to everybody who the people banned were. If what you said could bring any reponsibility to CCP, it wouldn't ban them at all. We want to know the other 7 corps. Because we already know everybody that was banned from ev0ke, mind you. Even so I don't see anybody even talking about the Ev0ke banned characters in this forum, much less going to Germany after them, to beat them. lol. That is extremelly naive, and a lame excuse at best. Quote: Especially as they can't win this anyway. Any info they give - there will be some hardcore tinfoilers here who argue that that is just coverup for much worse problems. No BoB/Goon/whatever-power-alliance-you-dustrust names on the list? Coverup again. The more information they give, and the more coherent and encompassing this information is, the harder it is to refute it. And the smallest will be the number of people that will support anyone who still has issues about them. Quote: They destroy 70 accounts? CCP only deleted some alts goes the myth - there must be way more. They destroy 700 - OMG - it must be thousands no doubt. If the only thing released are numbers(as now) that may as well happen. If the ISK transfers total amounts produced, and all the relevant information used to trace those accounts is released, on the other hand, it will be much easier to prove everything is done as it should. Quote: It takes only a very few hardcore tinfoil hat wearers (priding themselves to be on a holy crusade for customer rights - heroes in their own eyes) to keep this going. So - again - CCP can't win by posting names and takes a risk by doing so. So they won't. It's the rational thing to do. In the absence of fuel no tinfoilry can last for much time. CCP is given plenty of fuel by obfusscatig things. In these conditions, yes, it will last for a looong time. And that is a very good thing. Quote: Anybody who is convinced that CCP lies about claims to delete accounts and investigating this - cancel your subscription and never give them your credit card details again. No thank you. I am quite comfortable with my other options. But i would suggest that if you are so revolted by this "tinfoilry", that you delete the link of this forum from yoru browser and go play the game. After all you became tinfoil hat user yourself. Quote: I'm satisfied with the services provided for my monthly fee (the equivalent of 2 movies per month - for better than 4 hours of typical movie entertainment), I'm willing to trust their claims. I wouldn't be here otherwise. Good for you. And as you don't have anything to complain about them, you decided to complain about people who don't share your views. After all if it is an absurd that such people even exist, can you imagine they have the nerve to express their opinions as wel? Quote: Anybody who thinks they should not hesitate to waste money on this - remember - we pay for it all. If you want QA and IA on a level otherwise associated with medical equipment suppliers and such - be prepared to pay similar prices. Want to pay $80 per month for best possible QA? I prefer a reasonable compromise appropriate for a game. I prefer that a game breaking issue is properly solved, than walking into stations, thank you. Quote: WB to reality. :-) I hate to be the one to tell you, but you are still sleeping. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Dewayne Hicks	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:49:00 - [2580] Originally by: Arthas Wallace Those fools at CCP nerfed invention??? I fail a lot now... maybe they want to minimize the damage of THEIR fault... It's the third time now... i hate to spend a lot of training time then they nerf it... I think they should test things in the TEST server instead of making the mistakes and fixing it, like with missiles and nano... There is a difference between nerfing and killing something. Imo I believed they killed missiles outright.....

Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.21 19:58:00 - [2581] Edited by: Glengrant on 21/12/2008 20:00:17 Dear Etho, I do ignore the forums for weeks - sometimes months at a time. Need to recharge to process all the c*p one has to wade through here. You claim this affair is game-breaking. How so? Let's just assume for a minute that EVE would prove beyond your level of doubt that their current findings are correct. Then widespread abuse has only been going on for some weeks or so. Meaning that prices have only been really affected for that same period. Meaning that prices will just go back to the level of 2-3 months ago (everything else being equal). Big deal. A bit higher than now - but still way* lower than pre-invention. If patches like invention with their massively market affecting changes don't danage the game - how could this affair be different. The fact is that prices are determined by a number of variables. Alchemy for example will also affect them. And the exact prices of T2 are not very relevant to the overall game as there is no one correct price. That's why even if your worst assumptions are true and CCP covers up widespread abuse over a much longer time it wouldn't really matter much to the market economy. Either post-invention prices are roughly where CCP wanted them by design - the they will just tune some other variables to make than happen (alchemy values, moon frequency/output, whatever). Or they are fine with higher T2 prices - also OK as then more pvp would be done with T1 again and T2 would simply be rarer. Nothing inherently wrong with that either. So - yes - the cheats affected the market - but at the same time there was 0 damage to the market. We don't want cheats profiting from this - so we want them and their assets gone (that's where we agree - right?) - but beyond that there is not a problem. OK - an alliance or 2 might have gained a better position than they otherwise would - but that will quickly change now anyway if extra money was the only reason they got ahead. Your silly class action suit OTOH would be damaging the game (any success would raise costs and therefore prices - or reduce services). Though I'm not too worried as I don't believe for a second that this is going to happen or go anywhere. Why I bother complaining about (IMHO unreasonable) complainers? Fair question. Not entirely rational on my part I admit. Sometimes I just fail to shut up. ;-) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 20:21:00 - [2582] Originally by: Glengrant [ Dear Etho, I do ignore the forums for weeks - sometimes months at a time. Need to recharge to process all the cp one has to wade through here. You could take one of such breaks now, you won't be missed Quote:** You claim this affair is game-breaking. How so? Let's just assume for a minute that EVE would prove beyond your level of doubt that their current findings are correct. Then widespread abuse has only been going on for some weeks or so. Meaning that prices have only been really affected for that same period. Meaning that prices will just go back to the level of 2-3 months ago (everything else being equal). Big deal. A bit higher than now - but still way lower than pre-invention. If patches like invention with their massively market affecting changes don't danage the game - how could this affair be different. The fact is that prices are determined by a number of variables. Alchemy for example will also affect them. And the exact prices of T2 are not very relevant to the overall game as there is no one correct price. You are talking nonsense. Assuming that the information disclosed by CCP is correct, the exploit hit the market as direct selling of advanced material for 6 months now (since June/July). Before that it was in use but the results were not deployed in the market as advanced materials. The amount of ISK absorbed from the economy , just in the last 6 months was 3 trillion ISK, what generates recession. This can be felt if you are trying to sell products. Eve market has been turning into a deflationary market. Now the fun part. Before those 6 months, it has been pointed by CCP that the materials were used for internal production. I find highly unlikely that those 178 towers popped all of a sudden 6 months ago. So we can safely assume that a reasonable part of them were in operation before, and the numbers increased steadily until they reached the 178 mark at which point they were noticed and dealt with. So we have an extended period of time where an outrageous amount of T2 materials were produced and used directly to produce T2, which was dumped in the market, trashing the T2 market. This massive quantity of T2 itens, couldn't be possibily absorbed, so if it is not destroyed, it will keep hindering the market. Furthermore, if the ISK gathered by these guys managed to passed ahead and was not completely destroyed, it will stay there, financing the same alliances, and organizations that profitted from the exploit. And lets not even talk about the people who received information in advance from the cheaters, that they would be banned and bought ferrogel cheap 3 DAYS BEFORE the event, profitting several hundred billions in the proccess... Quote: That's why even if your worst assumptions are true and CCP covers up widespread abuse over a much longer time it wouldn't really matter much to the market economy. Either post-invention prices are roughly where CCP wanted them by design - the they will just tune some other variables to make than happen (alchemy values, moon frequency/output, whatever). Or they are fine with higher T2 prices - also OK as then more pvp would be done with T1 again and T2 would simply be rarer. Nothing inherently wrong with that either. T2 prices are only a small part of the problem, as I explained above. Remaining resources, be it ISK or materials can be used to further distort the game. So no "people" won't start using T1. Non cheaters would mostly start using T1, cheater's and associates would happily continue using T2... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 20:27:00 - [2583] Originally by: Glengrant So - yes - the cheats affected the market - but at the same time there was 0 damage to the market. We don't want cheats profiting from this - so we want them and their assets gone (that's where we agree - right?) - but beyond that there is not a problem. People really shouldn't talk about which they have no clue. The assumption "0 damage to the market" is so stupid it is unreal. Reality check 3 trillion ISK were drained from the market and destroyed. Many T2 producers bankrupted because of unfair competition. The damage was extensive. And even CCP in its timid figures define it as profound and far reaching. Quote: OK - an alliance or 2 might have gained a better position than they otherwise would - but that will quickly change now anyway if extra money was the only reason they got ahead. No it won't. There is a thing called positive feedback. When you are on the top it is easier to stay on the top. By wining you gather resources, people and sovereighty. Any alliance that benefitted from this will most likely continue benefitting from the consequences. Quote: Why I bother complaining about (IMHO unreasonable) complainers? Fair question. Not entirely rational on my part I admit. Sometimes I just fail to shut up. ;-) At least we agree in something. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente Infinite Order	Posted - 2008.12.21 21:39:00 - [2584] Edited by: Slinkus Gallentus on 21/12/2008 21:39:53 I've never read so much crap in my life. At least not since Dan Browne... cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Yumikora	Posted - 2008.12.21 21:41:00 - [2585] You are a fun, and predictable, person, Etho. Originally by: Etho Demerzel I will provide what is asked of me. Quite, although maybe not really as you imagined it. You just proved my points about your posting style, which is actually more than I asked for. Now I don't need to go on with that part, which serves the thread. Thank you. Originally by: Etho Demerzel If you post flames like this you will receive flames back. The choice is yours. Incorrect, again. The choice was yours and you've made it. It's really rather hilarious. I actually support your on-topic cause in this thread, and you apparently persist in failing to see this? Flame away, all you want. I don't care about that. I'm just trying to help you optimize your message, you see. Well, apparently you don't see it. Yet. Let's try once more. See, you'll need a great deal of luck getting your points heard by CCP, as long as you continue in your current style. I am still hopeful that you may yet realize that you need to change it, since (as I said) I do agree with you on the main issues vis-a-vis CCP, and I do care about those. Again, so you simply cannot miss it: - I don't care about you flaming me. - I do care about your style detracting from your message. - I want your message to get through to CCP, and others. So, try to ease up on the defensive, lighten up, take some criticism, and use it. Tune and get your message through. I'm certain you can do it if you just take a deep breath and think before you post, rather than endulge yourself in pointless forum-PvP. So, once more: Get back to the topic?
Pure Manergy Gallente The Sobani	Posted - 2008.12.21 21:45:00 - [2586] Etho Demerzel, whilst the multiple posts in a row on your opinions of peoples posts/opinions/topics are... long, nobody really cares what you have to say. You apparently have a minority complex and the need for constant attention (kind of like a kid with Downs Syndrome). In short: Stuff it. ---------------------------------------------- This is the way the world ends; This is the way the world ends; This is the way the world ends; Not with a bang, but a whimper. ~T.S. Eliot.
Jalsorpa Caldari Infestation.	Posted - 2008.12.21 22:10:00 - [2587] LULZ!!! Well done etho m8 lol I'm enjoying the flame fest Keep up the good work!!!! (Btw i agree with everything etho said just cos it annoys so many ppl lol) http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0704/tajidan_sig_arnold%283%29.jpg[/img]pa_sig.jpg
Jonnten Nichs	Posted - 2008.12.21 22:47:00 - [2588] Originally by: Kva Plexcha Hmm I applied a filter to this 85 page thread - took all the Etho posts out and its only 12 pages long! <scrambles to look for how to do this>
Jonnten Nichs	Posted - 2008.12.21 22:54:00 - [2589] Edited by: Jonnten Nichs on 21/12/2008 22:55:53 Edited by: Jonnten Nichs on 21/12/2008 22:55:13 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Glengrant [ Dear Etho, I do ignore the forums for weeks - sometimes months at a time. Need to recharge to process all the c**p one has to wade through here. You could take one of such breaks now, you won't be missed Please, for the sake of the rest us, take up your own offer.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:08:00 - [2590] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 21/12/2008 23:11:52 Originally by: Yumikora You are a fun, and predictable, person, Etho. So are you. It was very predictable that you would still make a post talking about me, you know... Quote: Quite, although maybe not really as you imagined it. You just proved my points about your posting style, which is actually more than I asked for. Now I don't need to go on with that part, which serves the thread. Thank you. You could not have posted it at all if you don't want to go on with that part. Still you did, which means you are either stupid, which I highly doubt, or you do want to go on with this. Quote: Incorrect, again. The choice was yours and you've made it. As you did now. Quote: It's really rather hilarious. I actually support your on-topic cause in this thread, and you apparently persist in failing to see this? If you do you are doing yourself a disservice by insisting in discussing offtopic issues, although I am really flattered by your fixation in me. Quote: Flame away, all you want. I don't care about that. I'm just trying to help you optimize your message, you see. Well, apparently you don't see it. Yet. Let's try once more. Oh you do care, so much you care that you can't let it go... Quote: See, you'll need a great deal of luck getting your points heard by CCP, as long as you continue in your current style. I am still hopeful that you may yet realize that you need to change it, since (as I said) I do agree with you on the main issues vis-a-vis CCP, and I do care about those. And you know that because... Oh right, you are CCP! Or maybe on the top of arrogance you know what I should say, right? Quote: Again, so you simply cannot miss it: - I don't care about you flaming me. Yes you do. Actually you want it. Quote: - I do care about your style detracting from your message. - I want your message to get through to CCP, and others. No you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't insist on discussing about me instead of the topic. Quote: So, try to ease up on the defensive, lighten up, take some criticism, and use it. Tune and get your message through. I'm certain you can do it if you just take a deep breath and think before you post, rather than endulge yourself in pointless forum-PvP. So, once more: Get back to the topic? As I told you, either way does not bother me. I will keep discussing about the topic and answering posts like yours all the same. If you want me to stay on topic just stay on topic yourself... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:10:00 - [2591] Originally by: Jonnten Nichs Please, for the sake of the rest us, take up your own offer. Sorry, it seems you are out of luck. It won't happen... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Yumikora	Posted - 2008.12.22 00:01:00 - [2592] Edited by: Yumikora on 22/12/2008 00:01:27 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 21/12/2008 23:11:52 stuff Right. I had another long reply here, ready to submit it. But then I realized that this won't end, will it? We'll just continue hacking away at each other until hell freezes over or the thread is locked, whichever comes first. Neither of us will convince the other of being right or wrong. So, instead, I'll take you up on your last paragraph Originally by: Etho Demerzel As I told you, either way does not bother me. I will keep discussing about the topic and answering posts like yours all the same. If you want me to stay on topic just stay on topic yourself... and unilaterally stop posting to this sub-thread, right now, on one condition: That you manage to produce enough restraint as to not respond to this (hopefully, final) post of mine. So, if you agree, don't respond, and let the thread return to its original topic.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.12.22 00:21:00 - [2593] Edited by: Glengrant on 22/12/2008 00:24:42 Originally by: Etho Demerzel You could take one of such breaks now, you won't be missed Wish granted. ;-) <poof> --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.22 01:42:00 - [2594] Originally by: Elisriel There is no code on earth that has been written that has been flawless and fool proof. Every game since the days of DOS has had bugs or exploits. Exploits aren't cheats like up-down-up-down-left-right-left-right-abab-start. Exploits are when a player finds a faulty string of code, knows for a fact it's not how things are supposed to play out, but instead of reporting it they ride it for all it's worth. Some exploits are hard to catch. Especially considering the billions of line of code required for a game the size of EVE. All that has to happen is a single variable be off, and you can have a game-breaking exploit. Remember, programmers are only human. I'd hate to see you judged by your own harsh standards in every area of -your- life. I'm in 100% agreement here *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.22 02:11:00 - [2595] Originally by: Blood Daemon If I was in control at CCP I would ban every ****er who slated the company who is abiding by the EULA/TERMS. Doesn't the fact that they don't do this tell you something?
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.22 02:11:00 - [2596] Originally by: T*G0d Thank you for your reply, this is my last word on this. It is good that we aren't judged like this in real life the way CCP is doing. Imagine if you took advantage of a "legal loophole" and you were just killed once it was found out. Maybe CCP should just fix the code, and take some assets and isk from the parties involved. Or, maybe release the names and alliances involved, and let the fellow gamers decide. Then if they choose to leave, they do so on their own. Banning accounts completely seems harsh to me, especially for something that has been around for 4 years. And I am sure that ^^you^^ couldn't give me the answer, but I'll ask again. PROVE, beyond a reasonable doubt, that all the banned offenders KNEW they were taking advantage of an "exploit". If it has been exploitable from the beginning, you would have nothing to compare it to. So, who is judging harshly? I am not being harsh, I am just saying, before you "fire" your profit, maybe you should take an internal look at some people who have the skills/duty to recognize such "exploits". This does worry me a bit. Picture yourself as your corporation POS manager. You've been setting up POS towers all day for your corporation. (YES ALL DAY POS online-ing structures takes forever) You then log off, to goto work/school/life. Than come back during lunch in a rush and notice your POS is doing something odd again, wow thats news... so back to work/school/life you don't log in for a few days (wow people don't log in for a few days? blasphemy) Later you come back and dont' bother with the POS, maybe a week goes back. Then you hear news of a POS exploit, but don't think much about it. As you're not an exploiter/cheater but then you find yourself permanently banned, and considered s**of the game. The whole point of the example here is I'm sure people did exploit this intentionally but as well the exploit was originally found out by sheer accident. I wouldn't be surprised if some players that never intended to cheat/exploit where banned as well. That right there bothers me. What If I as a player accidently came across an exploit but don't realize it. Later I find myself banned... Permanently. ********* Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.22 02:35:00 - [2597] Originally by: Glengrant Anybody who is convinced that CCP lies about claims to delete accounts and investigating this - cancel your subscription and never give them your credit card details again. If you were in CCP's position right now, what would you do and how would you inform the player base (including saying nothing) in the event that: (I would be interested to hear anyone and everyones reponses to this to be honest.) 1) You discovered at least one petition slipped through the net regarding the POS exploit, and was closed by one of your GM's. 2) As above, however you discovered multiple petitions had slipped through and been closed without further action. 3) You found traces of indirect employee involvement. (Past and current employees) 4) As above, however direct employee involvement. (Past and current employees) 5) You didn't have the tools to realistically trace an audit trail of the profits. 6) You didn't have the tools to realistically trace accurately how long this exploit has been possible. 7) You do have the tools, and find that it was used at the point of POS introduction or shortly thereafter. 8) The amount of ISK involved in the exploit is obscene, and far in excess of the 3 trillion. 9) You uncovered another major exploit during the investigation. 10) You discovered that the majority of your player base was exploiting. 11) You don't really have any further answers beyond what has been stated in the two official responses. 12) It was previously petitioned on the test server.
Almighty Zeus07	Posted - 2008.12.22 02:47:00 - [2598] merry Christmas ccp. well at least they uncovered the major exploit so it can stop. Hope the goons been doing it would be funny if the thing that crumbled them was their own greed.
horis hurbunker	Posted - 2008.12.22 04:58:00 - [2599] I don't know if this has been brought up, but as far as "accidentally exploiting the bug" it would be one thing if a single player is doing it. If there seems to be a high number of people in a few corps it's unlikely that anyone else was meaning to do it; also, exploits are hard to find and harder to make use of because of all the testing being done to stop them. This probably required several steps to be taken in order to get it to happen and is not an everyday occurrence. CCP would not ban a person if they weren't using the exploits to gain massive amounts of money which this one could do. We still do not know how much was made for free and how much of the market this percent of tainted goods is. Eve is a large community and the effects of this should not be that horrible. Supply will eventually meet demands, doubly so now that we know there is a huge market for tech goods and everyone is trying to get in on the profits.
ninjaholic Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.12.22 05:12:00 - [2600] Avarice weakens the walls from within SUPPORT EVE-O's OWN IN-GAME FIGHT RECORD TOOL !!

Pure Manergy Gallente The Sobani	Posted - 2008.12.22 08:02:00 - [2601] Whilst your point is semi-valid, the point is: you take up valuable space with your pointless opinions. In regard to the actual topic: It's your problem, not us unbanned ones, and it's unlikely that CCP will revoke the ban. Therefore, stop whining and make a new account or get on with life. Flame away! ---------------------------------------------- This is the way the world ends; This is the way the world ends; This is the way the world ends; Not with a bang, but a whimper. ~T.S. Eliot.
RAGINGMANIAC	Posted - 2008.12.22 08:06:00 - [2602] Saying the starbases were exploited doesnt mean much to me. I would like to understand more about the specifics of how starbases were exploited. I have seen atleast one other bug exploited in this game. The thing about bugs is, one mans bug is another mans function. Also a note about banning, I am usually quick to say ban them!! but on the other hand there is a paradox, when one is allowed to cheat the other almost need to follow suit to stay competitive. Ie the Tour De France, Major League baseball, NFL and apparently every other game. MOre on the specifics of the exploit please.
Lusulpher Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.22 11:01:00 - [2603] Originally by: Zanpt Originally by: Squirrrel Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Etho Demerzel Go to the ghost trainign thread and you will see the most recent one. I noticed that whining thread. Don't see where CCP lied there. You obviously didn't follow events nor read the thread properly then. Their official statements for the reasoning for the fixing of this "bug" was laughable and changed as time went on and ultimately became about money. I could have stomached that reasoning if they had just said it from the outset instead of tryng to spin it. This. At 197 pages / 5,891 posts, the unsubbed training nerf threadnaught has more than enough clear explanation by various posters to leave no excuse for failing to understand that there was no bug and that there were lies and spin. Anyone who offers uninformed opinions in other threads would be well advised to scan the actual threadnaught and try to acquire a clue or two. Threadnaught Original thread, locked almost immediately Of course that Ghosttraining Nerf was for the money, the RL economy is on a downturn and logic would say to tighten the leaks. Besides that certain responsible players took it upon themselves to make that freebie from CCP into a Macro Boost...Have you hunted macro-Ravens in nullsec or harassed Hulks/Itty Vs in hisec? Do you support macros? Are they not cheating? That threadnought was rendered moot by this same argument, what hurts cheaters is good for the company, what is good for the company is good for HONEST players. CCP is cracking down on exploits/bugs and here we are trying to cook up conspiracies that in the end don't even matter as long as we can repair the damage and hope more exploits are found early. Go play the game, report the bugs and stop typing nonsense. Only way to make sure lazy/rude GMs get replaced quite frankly. I'm still curious to see names revealed as that might actually show weaknesses in social organizations that are not nimble enough or diversified to adapt to what will no doubt be shocking for them also. "Vultures feast on corpses no matter the stench." Live and Let Die...All of it...null
Liu	Posted - 2008.12.22 11:10:00 - [2604] Originally by: Lusulpher Of course that Ghosttraining Nerf was for the money, the RL economy is on a downturn and logic would say to tighten the leaks. Besides that certain responsible players took it upon themselves to make that freebie from CCP into a Macro Boost...Have you hunted macro-Ravens in nullsec or harassed Hulks/Itty Vs in hisec? Do you support macros? Are they not cheating? would you be so kind as to point out the conexion between ghost training (training while the account is suspended) and macroing? Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
Skrull Kinta	Posted - 2008.12.22 11:19:00 - [2605] Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. Update by Customer Support: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. I just want to say thank you for posting this. You could have just not said anything. The right thing and the easy thing to do are rarely the same. Took the words out of my mouth.
Just AL	Posted - 2008.12.22 11:56:00 - [2606] If the implication of this is what I think it is and you are hiring programmers that are influencing the game for their own or their friends' benefit you can bet they have mainpulated the game in order to farm isk, equipment and the likes for sale. Otherwise I'm trying to understand why the players have been banned for exploting a bug.
Doc Imp	Posted - 2008.12.22 14:03:00 - [2607] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Inbound threadnaught detected Millitary experts are calling this a cynosurual field!
Johncrab Minmatar XBeyond	Posted - 2008.12.22 14:36:00 - [2608] Originally by: GM Grimmi Update: (12/19/2008) Here is an update on the investigation into the Starbase reactor exploit that we are currently conducting: 1. CCP has confirmed that this bug has been exploitable since February 2007. Changes to the Starbases code from launch until February 2007 are minimal and very unlikely to have caused the bug. So at this point we are working on the assumption that this bug has been exploitable since the release of player owned structures on November 24th, 2004. We will therefore focus solely on looking at Starbases data in order to determine who has been using this exploit, and for how long. 2. CCP has been able to restore older databases that show us that the bug has been exploited since at least January this year, but at a lower scale than in the last few months. The players involved then were the same ones that we found and banned recently. We are now working on restoring data from 2006 which will take us several days. It is uncertain if we will be able to have answers on that before holiday vacations. 3. CCP has been able to access data from our old petition system. We have been unable to confirm that a petition was filed in 2004, 2005 or 2006 pointing out this bug with Starbases. We urge anyone with information on who and when a petition on this issue was filed to contact us directly through the petition system under the Exploit Category. Alternatively, an email sent to [email protected] with details on the matter would be much appreciated. 4. The full investigation will take several weeks. CCP will be in direct contact with the CSM to discuss this issue and we will provide information to the community as it becomes available. 5. We have done a thorough investigation on our staff members and CSM members and found no links to this exploit. 6. Our actions so far have included the eradication of 178 starbases that were exploiting this issue. Some had multiple reactors running in the bugged state. We have also banned all those we have found directly involved and all accounts we have found to be connected to those players. The investigation is still under way and will take a while to conclude. We will continue to work hard to understand the overall impact of this exploit and how widespread it was. We ask for your patience until more information becomes available. Seems we are moving in the right direction. The next step is for people that assumed they reported this a long time ago to come fwd and show some proof. That's the most important issue we have to face, now that naming and shaming seems to be out of the question.
Denidil	Posted - 2008.12.22 15:24:00 - [2609] Originally by: Just AL If the implication of this is what I think it is and you are hiring programmers that are influencing the game for their own or their friends' benefit you can bet they have mainpulated the game in order to farm isk, equipment and the likes for sale. Otherwise I'm trying to understand why the players have been banned for exploting a bug. they're banned because they violated the EULA it doesn't take programmer avarice to introduce bugs. I hold a Bachelor of Sciences in Computer Science and I can tell you with 100% certainty that this bug could easily be the result of a simple typo or just an unexpected side effect of bonus stacking or any number of other things. It states, pretty clearly, in the EULA that if you take advantage of a bug to cheat the system you can and will be banned. End of Story. Stop trying to concoct conspiracy theories and stop expecting programmers to be fragging Uebermenschen!
Mavric Viscosity	Posted - 2008.12.22 15:50:00 - [2610] Quote: The service CCP provides is this game. It is not permanent, given, but while our subscriptions last they can't pull the plug without consequences. They can pull the plug at the very momentall subscriptions end, but that would be as smart as Coke stop selling soft-drinks. This is how they make money, my friend, they pull the plug they shoot their own head... You should probably read the EULA. It is almost standard wording on any online service that they can shut down without notice and not be responsible. They are also not required to refund any outstanging ballance for unplayed time.

Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2008.12.22 16:13:00 - [2611] Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 22/12/2008 16:15:22 Originally by: Pure Manergy Etho Demerzel, whilst the multiple posts in a row on your opinions of peoples posts/opinions/topics are... long, nobody really cares what you have to say. You apparently have a minority complex and the need for constant attention (kind of like a kid with Downs Syndrome). In short: Stuff it. Yup - I just skip his posts now. I've read enough to be comfortable with the conclusion that if Etho typed it, it's not worth my time to read. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2008.12.22 16:22:00 - [2612] CCP, thanks for the work you guys are doing to uncover this issue, and Merry Xmas to you all. Not being a cheater myself, I (like a couple others) would really like to know the mechanics behind this exploit and how it was carried out. ------------------------------------------- 1) Dell XPS M1710 (3Gig, nVidia GeForce Go 7900 GS, Vista Business SP1, display res 1920x1200, DX 10) 2) AMD/64 (3200+) on Asus AN8SLI32 w/3Gig, nVidia Ge
Delta Hammer	Posted - 2008.12.22 16:59:00 - [2613] Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: Elisriel There is no code on earth that has been written that has been flawless and fool proof. Every game since the days of DOS has had bugs or exploits. Exploits aren't cheats like up-down-up-down-left-right-left-right-abab-start. It's up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-b-a-select-start. I still have the motions programmed into my fingers from the good old 8 bit NES days. And on topic, while personally I would like to see more openness on the details of the exploit, I am glad to see that CCP is consistent with its privacy policy. The player base will never agree with every decision CCP makes, but we can appreciate their consistency. Besides, if we really want to know who was banned, just ask yourself who we haven't seen around in a few days.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.22 19:44:00 - [2614] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Yup - I just skip his posts now. I've read enough to be comfortable with the conclusion that if Etho typed it, it's not worth my time to read. Still it seems to be worth enough of your time for you to comment about it. Sorry if in any way I have annoyed, outraged or freightened you. Then again, no, actually I am not sorry. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.22 19:46:00 - [2615] Originally by: Mavric You should probably read the EULA. It is almost standard wording on any online service that they can shut down without notice and not be responsible. They are also not required to refund any outstanging ballance for unplayed time. Oh yes they are. By the law of many countries were they sell their service, including most states of US. Any term in an EULA that go against the law is void. If you sell something you are legally obligued to deliver, it is a principle based in common sense that is present in the laws of many countries in this world... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Armadaus Baldwin International House of PWNCakes B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2008.12.22 20:12:00 - [2616] C/P'd from CAOD. Sorry Navigator, couldn't resist this one... is gold! Quote: CCP Navigator Minmatar C C P Posted - 2008.12.22 17:01:00 - [5] Really no need for a thread. If you have submitted a petitioon then it will be dealt with Smile
The Cursed2 Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.22 20:25:00 - [2617] as much as alot of people want to deny it, there's no way to punish those guilty and not those who accidently did it. just like in reality (something alot of you seem to not know exists) sometimes the innocent are punished for crimes they didn't commit. the fact you're able to post right now means chances are, you didn't get banned for the exploit, so stop your moaning and get over it. i had a friend do the math and given how long the exploit could have gone on for, you're looking at your own personal titan fleet worth of isk made from just 1 pos running the reactions, you start talking corp/alliance sized pos farms doing it and you can quickly see the problem here. those involved should be punished, god knows how many times they've won fleet battles because they could afford the best of the best EVERY TIME."2bil for a faction fit t2 bs? sure why not, lets field 10. they all get blown up? oh well got 10 more on their way down from jita." anyone who was able to say that because of this exploit by all means ban them, and truthfully anyone they can prove received goods from this dirty isk. i would rather like to see who they've caught, we all know bob didnt get caught, goons or bob, no name or super power, i'd just like to see WHO it was :P
Nakimoto Caldari Unnatural Growth Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.22 21:34:00 - [2618] this thread is now splitting hairs on who accidently found this exploit. Quit trying to produce a loop hole that all cheaters involved can swiftly jump through. Same crap happend with isk buyers.....oh I just purchased this toon and all of the sudden I have a neg wallet as the guilty quickly create accounts and swap toons. True there is a possibility that a very slim percentage accidently stumbled acrossed it. The facts are 198 POS's found using exploit and hummmm all involved only spanning 3 alliances and multiple corps in each alliance with multiple Pos's using exploit in each corp is pretty overwhelming evidence it was no accident. IMHO if you got caught man up and take responsibility. Start a new toon or check out the new WOW expansion.
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.22 22:17:00 - [2619] Originally by: Nakimoto this thread is now splitting hairs on who accidently found this exploit. Quit trying to produce a loop hole that all cheaters involved can swiftly jump through. Same crap happend with isk buyers.....oh I just purchased this toon and all of the sudden I have a neg wallet as the guilty quickly create accounts and swap toons. True there is a possibility that a very slim percentage accidently stumbled acrossed it. The facts are 198 POS's found using exploit and hummmm all involved only spanning 3 alliances and multiple corps in each alliance with multiple Pos's using exploit in each corp is pretty overwhelming evidence it was no accident. IMHO if you got caught man up and take responsibility. Start a new toon or check out the new WOW expansion. AND there you have it, Who where they ?. Because nobody seems missing in alliance rankings!!!. Were they all alt accounts?, to keep their main accoumts clean. Is that isk stashed ready for when this has blown over.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.22 22:52:00 - [2620] Originally by: Mavric Quote: The service CCP provides is this game. It is not permanent, given, but while our subscriptions last they can't pull the plug without consequences. They can pull the plug at the very momentall subscriptions end, but that would be as smart as Coke stop selling soft-drinks. This is how they make money, my friend, they pull the plug they shoot their own head... You should probably read the EULA. It is almost standard wording on any online service that they can shut down without notice and not be responsible. They are also not required to refund any outstanging ballance for unplayed time. I'm not sure that's strictly true looking at the wording per-section: Quote: EULA: 6. TERMINATION; SUSPENSION OF ACCOUNT A. By CCP for Termination of the Game CCP does not guarantee that it will continue to offer access to the System or support the Game. CCP may, in its sole discretion, cease to provide any or all of the services offered in connection with EVE (including access to the System and any or all features or components of the Game), terminate the EULA, close all Accounts and cancel all of the rights granted to you under the EULA. CCP may communicate such termination to you upon 30 days notice in any of the following manners: (i) when you log into your Account; (ii) in a notice on CCP's website; (iii) via electronic mail; or (iv) in another manner that CCP deems suitable to inform you of the termination. If CCP terminates the EULA pursuant to this section, you will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees. You're correct about the subscription fees on this basis. Quote: 16. GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUMThe EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland, (HTra=sd=mur Reykjavfkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland. MISCELLANEOUS If any part of the EULA is held invalid or unenforceable, that portion shall be construed in a manner consistent with applicable law to reflect, as nearly as possible, the original intentions of the parties expressed in the EULA, and the remaining portions shall remain in full force and effect. You shall comply with all applicable laws regarding your access to and use of the System, use of the Software, your access to your Account and your playing of the Game. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not download, use or otherwise export or re-export any part of the information accessible through the System or the Software except in full compliance with all applicable laws and regulations. The only question would be, what is the law of Iceland in regards to compensation for the total shutdown of the game. Unless they mass-ban the player base with time remaining on accounts, law still might override the EULA.

vader000	Posted - 2008.12.22 23:12:00 - [2621] Here's a simple solution: As soon as we find out the rest of the corps involved, all other players gang up and destroy these corps. Maybe the non-cheaters would have a disadvantage, maybe not, but the challenge would make it fun. In most games there is a hard boss to beat that has a huge advantage over you - it's the challenge that makes the game fun. At least to me, that sounds more reasonable than arguing forever on this forum.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.22 23:35:00 - [2622] Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 22/12/2008 23:35:49 Originally by: elric gallach AND there you have it, Who where they ?. Because nobody seems missing in alliance rankings!!! One was ev0ke, we know two of their corps were involved. Seeing as no other alliance has been outed so far(either on here or on Kug's site or any other unnofficial forums) I'm assuming at this poin they are some random empire dwellers who nobody has ever heard of and who were RMT'ing their ferrogel profits rather than using it to build a horde of dreads and titans, and so nobody has even noticed that they've disappeared. -----------
Craterius	Posted - 2008.12.23 00:48:00 - [2623] For what it is worth: A member of BoB whom I know personally and who in RL I have a lot of reason to trust, reports to me that the exploit was well known for a long time within BoB, but NOT USED (by anyone he knew) because of how easy it was to detect. This person knows in RL that, if he had informed me he and everyone in BoB was using the exploit, I would not be posting this. And he would be right. So, we really need to wait for the evidence to come out before jumping to conclusions.
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.23 01:09:00 - [2624] Originally by: Craterius For what it is worth: A member of BoB whom I know personally and who in RL I have a lot of reason to trust, reports to me that the exploit was well known for a long time within BoB, but NOT USED (by anyone he knew) because of how easy it was to detect. This person knows in RL that, if he had informed me he and everyone in BoB was using the exploit, I would not be posting this. And he would be right. So, we really need to wait for the evidence to come out before jumping to conclusions. Did any of them ever bug report it?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.23 02:09:00 - [2625] Originally by: Craterius For what it is worth: A member of BoB whom I know personally and who in RL I have a lot of reason to trust, reports to me that the exploit was well known for a long time within BoB, but NOT USED (by anyone he knew) because of how easy it was to detect. This person knows in RL that, if he had informed me he and everyone in BoB was using the exploit, I would not be posting this. And he would be right. So, we really need to wait for the evidence to come out before jumping to conclusions. Sorry, but it is very hard to believe it. If they indeed know and did not use the bug they wouldn't waste the opportunity to unleash CCP's wath over their cheating competitors by reporting it until the reports were listened. And we all know BoB tend to be listened by CCP and its complaints addressed, even when the rest of us are not... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
GySgt Kossori THE FINAL STAND Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.23 06:31:00 - [2626] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 23/12/2008 04:47:10 Originally by: Craterius For what it is worth: A member of BoB whom I know personally and who in RL I have a lot of reason to trust, reports to me that the exploit was well known for a long time within BoB, but NOT USED (by anyone he knew) because of how easy it was to detect. This person knows in RL that, if he had informed me he and everyone in BoB was using the exploit, I would not be posting this. And he would be right. So, we really need to wait for the evidence to come out before jumping to conclusions. Sorry, but it is very hard to believe it. If they indeed know and did not use the bug they wouldn't waste the opportunity to unleash CCP's wrath over their cheating competitors by reporting it until the reports were listened. And we all know BoB tend to be listened by CCP and its complaints addressed, even when the rest of us are not... Sorry, but I have to disagree, Etho. The only reason everyone jumps down BoB's throats is for the same reason everyone jumps down Wal-Mart's throats: They're the big, prominent target. Do you, or anyone for that matter, have any evidence that BoB, Goons, RA, etc had anything to do with it? Seems to me like everyone jumps on the "I hate big alliances" bandwagon and immediately points fingers at them. And, to be quite honest, I don't want the big alliances getting banned...Then that way I still have people to shoot at who will shoot back and will be a challenge. Not some random noob who just got his first Myrmidon and loses it because he doesn't know how to fit it properly.... Anyways, back to the subject at hand. No one in this thread can give any solid evidence that the said alliances had anything to do with it. And don't give me the whole "Well, the T20 incident involved BoB" because that's not evidence.
CottageCheese Discharge	Posted - 2008.12.23 07:00:00 - [2627] Originally by: GySgt Kossori Edited by: GySgt Kossori on 23/12/2008 06:40:27 Sorry, but I have to disagree, Etho. The only reason everyone jumps down BoB's throats is for the same reason everyone jumps down Wal-Mart's throats: They're the big, prominent target. Do you, or anyone for that matter, have any evidence that BoB, Goons, RA, etc had anything to do with it? Seems to me like everyone jumps on the "I hate big alliances" bandwagon and immediately points fingers at them. And, to be quite honest, I don't want the big alliances getting banned...Then that way I still have people to shoot at who will shoot back and will be a challenge. Not some random noob who just got his first Myrmidon and loses it because he doesn't know how to fit it properly.... Anyways, back to the subject at hand. No one in this thread can give any solid evidence that the said alliances had anything to do with it. And don't give me the whole "Well, the T20 incident involved BoB" because that's not evidence regarding to THIS issue. Yeah, okay right. We should all believe someone who's on an alt claiming he knows someone in bob IRL. I know someone in bob IRL too, and they confirmed that lots of people did it. See how this works? It's called BS, and we all know where it comes from. You really think all of Bob is going to be able to control itself when it is that large? Don't make me laugh. That's like other alliances saying "no scamming". Yeaahh, lets get right on enforcing that. The question is how many people set up an easy way to deny it publicly, while CCP gives bob a break as always. You didn't think that "feature" about letting CCP know when there is a large fleet engagement on the same note, was to "make things run smoother" do you? Hell no. It was because BOB lost multiple titans in an evening recently, and this way when someone reports a large fleet engagement in bob territory the dev's just tell them and whoops, bob is safe! Sure, how many people can offer proof of this? what's a ccp dev going to say, "yes we do!"? Those who are smart about the market have already seen the short and long term impact from some of the bans already. Meanwhile, people aren't stupid and the most quiet are trying to fly under the radar. Saying that nobody can produce evidence because we aren't CCP is a pile of BS. What are we, CCP? Oh, wait, nope.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.23 08:10:00 - [2628] Originally by: GySgt Kossori [ Sorry, but I have to disagree, Etho. The only reason everyone jumps down BoB's throats is for the same reason everyone jumps down Wal-Mart's throats: They're the big, prominent target. Do you, or anyone for that matter, have any evidence that BoB, Goons, RA, etc had anything to do with it? Seems to me like everyone jumps on the "I hate big alliances" bandwagon and immediately points fingers at them. And, to be quite honest, I don't want the big alliances getting banned...Then that way I still have people to shoot at who will shoot back and will be a challenge. Not some random noob who just got his first Myrmidon and loses it because he doesn't know how to fit it properly.... Anyways, back to the subject at hand. No one in this thread can give any solid evidence that the said alliances had anything to do with it. And don't give me the whole "Well, the T20 incident involved BoB" because that's not evidence regarding to THIS issue. You seem to be under the false impression that I accused anyone of doing anything in this post. In the message you quoted I just said that I doubt thet it would be possible for people in an alliance, a big alliance, to know about this and do nothing. Either they would use the exploit to their benefit or report it. Nobody in his right mind would just stay quiet and forget about it. It does not seem plausible to me. Now, regarding BoB, big alliances and such. I don't support or pledge for Alliance disbanding or characters' banishments a all, but I also don't care if CCP judges it necessary. This is totally irrelevant in my opinion. But if they are guilty, and I find it highly likely that at least some of the biggest alliances are, if not all, I would like this known, because their achievements would be tainted by this and shaming them would be a good start as a punishement, and a better one by far than a few people banned. One last remarks, BoB, in specific has already been tainted by comproved cheating once, and by several suspicious episodes, more than any other big Alliance. So although you don't consider the T20 incident relevant, I disagree. It, among many other things, shows a pattern of an alliance whose leaders have no reserves about playing dirty. I wouldn't put it beyond them to use this exploit. In the abasence of transparency, chances are we will never know who of us is right, but rest assured that would be in the interest of the innocents that such transparency existed. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Craterius	Posted - 2008.12.23 08:52:00 - [2629] Cottage Cheese: "Craterius" is my main character, not an alt. You can check my history & see I have not & could not be a member of BoB. Basically, almost a newb. We have some reason to believe the exploit was not used extensively until perhaps recently. If a lot of players had extensively produced moon minerals for free, one would think the overabundance would have driven the price down to the point you could not make the mega isk with producing it. At some point, anything which is almost free to produce will become almost free. Perhaps someone else could explain what mechanic would keep the price high?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.23 09:11:00 - [2630] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 23/12/2008 09:14:04 Originally by: Craterius Cottage Cheese: "Craterius" is my main character, not an alt. You can check my history & see I have not & could not be a member of BoB. Basically, almost a newb. We have some reason to believe the exploit was not used extensively until perhaps recently. If a lot of players had extensively produced moon minerals for free, one would think the overabundance would have driven the price down to the point you could not make the mega isk with producing it. At some point, anything which is almost free to produce will become almost free. Perhaps someone else could explain what mechanic would keep the price high? We have reason to belive that the materials were directly deployed in huge quantities to the market only in the last 6 months. Before this the material could have been deployed in smaller quantities, and it is what likely happened. As production costs were insignificant for the exploiters, they could also have been buying results of T2 reactions in great quantities pushing those up and making real producers's costs increase and their offer to decrease, which can artificially push prices of end products up as long as they are smart and don't flood the market too hard with them. We also have reason to believe that before these 6 months such materials were used directly to produce T2 ships and modules, as stated by CCP. These ships and modules were produced at almost no cost. Now it is completely reasonable and even likely to assume that part of those ships and modules were sold at market place for huge profits. and part of those were used to directly finance nullsec warfare. Furthermore by building those ships, at almost no cost, insuring and exploding them they could make considerable profits without even having to deal with other players. Last but not least, the T2 products built at no cost could be also used in direct exchange for other items like capital ship components, minerals and Faction/Deadspace gear. So it is safe to assume that the dupped T2 advanced materials actually sold in the market, those 3 trillion ISK reported, are only part of the total amount, and possibily not even the most significant one. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

hakima	Posted - 2008.12.23 09:29:00 - [2631] Edited by: hakima on 23/12/2008 09:30:17 Quote: Either they would use the exploit to their benefit or report it.Nobody in his right mind would just stay quiet and forget about it. It does not seem plausible to me. Why? Even with real crimes people will do nothing, they don't profit and they don't call police, they just go on with their lives. Quote: You seem to be under the false impression that I accused anyone of doing anything in this post. In the message you quoted I just said that I doubt thet it would be possible for people in an alliance, a big alliance, to know about this and do nothing. Quote: One last remarks, BoB, in specific has already been tainted by comproved cheating once, and by several suspicious episodes, more than any other big Alliance. So although you don't consider the T20 incident relevant, I disagree. It, among many other things, shows a pattern of an alliance whose leaders have no reserves about playing dirty. I wouldn't put it beyond them to use this exploit. And then the logic that I read guiding your words: "I'm not acussing anyone of using a exploit but I state that there 2 options of acting about this exploit : 1-using 2-reporting and nobody has presented evidence of using option 2." Just my opinion... Edit:spelling
Rick Rumrunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 09:48:00 - [2632] Lets let CCP do there job and get this sorted, i am sure they will put the information out to us when they have more info to put out, investigations take time. There is a of data to dig through to find the extent of the exploit. The market will sort itself, hopefully the alchemy will get a little love in a upcoming patch as it needs to be a bit better. People need to relax some and stop ranting and over complicating things, you cant hang on every word and over analyze it, stop claiming all large alliances are cheaters, Eve is a game sometimes there are bugs, and just like life sometimes sh*t happens, CCP is looking into it, they will inform us, as we pay there car payments, house payments and buy there beer. As for all you people screaming about how bad BOB is, you all fall under the following: 1) Have been or being spanked by BOB 2) On BOB's list of people to spank 3) Want to be part of BOB but can't get in. (They have standards, and you don't meet them) A quick list of things BOB has that you don't, which is why you envy them. 1) Good people 2) Teamwork 3) Good coms 4) Good FC's 5) Good ship setups 6) High standards Peace, Love and Burning Corpse's Rick the Rumrunner
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.23 09:55:00 - [2633] Originally by: hakima Why? Even with real crimes people will do nothing, they don't profit and they don't call police, they just go on with their lives. Because this isn't the real world, the "criminal" won't go after you, he will be banned... Furthermore if you are aware of it but decide not to use the exploit while others do you are placing yourself into a disadvantageous position. Basically there is absolutely nothing to lose in reporting it. And a lot to lose if you do nothing. So, except for the reason of extreme stupidity, I don't see anyone aware of it deciding just to ignoring it. Originally by: hakima And then the logic that I read guiding your words: "I'm not acussing anyone of using a exploit but I state that there 2 options of acting about this exploit : 1-using 2-reporting and nobody has presented evidence of using option 2." Just my opinion... Nobody that assumed to be aware of it. But then again nobody who is not banned has confessed to be aware of it. As of now we just have a guy saying a friend of him who is i BoB told him that he and several peple there knew about it and did nothing. I say that this is highly unlikely and that this guy's friend, if he indeed has a friend in BoB, id trying to talk big to impress him and knew nothing about this stuff. Even because if he knew it and did not report it he would be probably involved in it, and playing bragging about this knowledge, would be of unmatched stupidity ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.12.23 10:01:00 - [2634] Edited by: Squirrrel on 23/12/2008 10:03:18 Originally by: hakima Quote: Either they would use the exploit to their benefit or report it.Nobody in his right mind would just stay quiet and forget about it. It does not seem plausible to me. Why? Even with real crimes people will do nothing, they don't profit and they don't call police, they just go on with their lives. If anyone found an enemy to be using this exploit, the probability is that someone would have made a big deal out of it. If they just went on with their lives... well maybe it's because they knew an ally was using it perhaps. In which case, they should be considered as guilty as those exploiting it.
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.23 10:03:00 - [2635] Originally by: Craterius For what it is worth: A member of BoB whom I know personally and who in RL I have a lot of reason to trust, reports to me that the exploit was well known for a long time within BoB, but NOT USED (by anyone he knew) because of how easy it was to detect. This person knows in RL that, if he had informed me he and everyone in BoB was using the exploit, I would not be posting this. And he would be right. So, we really need to wait for the evidence to come out before jumping to conclusions. http://eve-search.com/thread/945053/page/1#7 ????
Baerr	Posted - 2008.12.23 10:59:00 - [2636] Originally by: Craterius For what it is worth: A member of BoB whom I know personally and who in RL I have a lot of reason to trust, reports to me that the exploit was well known for a long time within BoB, but NOT USED (by anyone he knew) because of how easy it was to detect. This person knows in RL that, if he had informed me he and everyone in BoB was using the exploit, I would not be posting this. And he would be right. So, we really need to wait for the evidence to come out before jumping to conclusions. Okay...maybe he is telling the truth. So, who wants to leave an exploit in the game when no one they know will be harmed because they weren't using it? I know of two. 1. People who are thinking about using it or are using it. Additionally, why leave an exploit for competitors to use? 2. CCP Why would they bother spending more money fixing something that isn't making an impact? In the meeting minutes, they are all aware that there was probably notice of the issue. What is their goal in this forum and the updates? It is to de-emphasize their role in the problem blaming it on a few cheaters. That way they can keep paying customers. And as BoB and others are very large, they ban a few, save the day and leave the ambiguities to us. If they didn't want to spend the money making the code right the first time, why would they spend any more than they can get away with fixing it. It is much cheaper to do PR. The people that care can come to a forum, vent their frustrations, and CCP isn't liable to do a single thing about it in the future. And don't give that crap about the code is too big or too complex. If you hire the people to build it in the first place, hire the people to fix it. The problem is CCP and the cheaters, but CCP really doesn't care as long as the bottom line doesn't drop. What kind of evidence am I supposed to believe? We have to trust that CCP is going to spend a lot of money chasing this down for some moral principle?
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.23 11:36:00 - [2637] http://eve-search.com/thread/945053/page/1#7 Posted on another forum. claiming 20+ bob pos'es in delve
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.23 13:45:00 - [2638] My question is only this atm, why do i have to pay for the game while these guys clearly didn't? _____________________________________
Ssnakezor	Posted - 2008.12.23 14:36:00 - [2639] justice for all, take from the rich give to the poor
Vicious Merquise	Posted - 2008.12.23 19:06:00 - [2640] Edited by: Vicious Merquise on 23/12/2008 19:08:31 Gratz everyone is winning on the forums but me...ignorance is bliss & CCP did a good job of keeping the whiners united. LMFAO about 88 pages worth

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.23 19:56:00 - [2641] Originally by: Vicious Merquise (snip) for me...ignorance is bliss (snip) I believe this. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.24 00:07:00 - [2642] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Vicious Merquise (snip) for me...ignorance is bliss (snip) I believe this. You certainly practice it. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Information Broker	Posted - 2008.12.24 00:36:00 - [2643] Edited by: Information Broker on 24/12/2008 00:44:27 First off - I have read through a load of pages now, and am thinking this is very, very amusing. Second - How do yall know it there weren't any Dev's INVOLVED/BANNED in this whole scandal? Third - Wtf is banning good for? Delete/Disband the Alliance Delete/Disband the Corps Delete any assets (Cash, PoS's, etc.....) in Alliance, Corps, banned Characters and any other characters on any other accounts. Ban Characters & Alts, as well as Alts/Main(s) on other Accounts. Insert a temporary/permanent boost* to production of advanced moon materials as too quell the sure-to-come if not-already-here inflation of these materials, at least temporarily to something is done to fix this problem. Make the Sov Space they own, if any, not Sov anymore (Un-Controlled 0.0). Delete any Outposts they owned, OR make them NPC-owned/buyable from market for base price * 1.25 + (Tier Costs * 2) Yall are screwing yourselves over with this deletion of the price histories as well, in my opinion, it makes yall look more guilty and that it was more of a dev-exploit with some alliance folks involved. I have no doubt though that the SCH Post is false, due to it would have been a much higher income than a mere 2500-3000 billion isk, I would estimate no less than 10,000 billion isk (Yes, that is OVER a quadrillion - but you are talking about 4 years, ferrogel/T2/Etc.. Which sell for quite a pretty penny - this estimate is in part of that post (sorry forgot your name!) from the person posting an estimated 420tril/pos and if that is PER POS, what do you think they could buy with 420 trillion? - maybe a few hundred-thousand-million-billion more POS's?) Edit: Regarding the Bannings - Banning only alts who actually did this instead of mains is stupid & letting this gone on for FOUR YEARS?... Even if it WASNT some Dev's helping Alts do this and keep it quiet for FOUR YEARS, You ****ed Up Big Time.
Information Broker	Posted - 2008.12.24 01:38:00 - [2644] Or, I've just been thinking and.. What if this was MEANT to happen by CCP and for this to be a lead-in with the most-likely-to-happen mineral inflation with our next expansion (march 10th) and these wormholes/new systems supposed to have the moons which will bridge the lack of minerals which would BOOM exploration, bring in more minerals, and partially if not fully stabilize the hole? ^ Or maybe that part of the expansion is due to the realization of this exploit and CCP didn't want to just right-away open up new systems, T3, etc.. to fix this and had to take their time, and ban them around the time they were ready to open up these systems/wormholes? And that fit in perfectly with T3 Ships..
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.24 03:31:00 - [2645] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Vicious Merquise (snip) for me...ignorance is bliss (snip) I believe this. You certainly practice it. What can I say, I don't have any Dev friend to give me information But maybe you can help me. Just answer my questions. Those youa re conveniently ignoring because you don't like the answers, remember? Why Sir Molle wasn't banned even after his blatant violation of the EULA in this very forum? Is BoB involved in this exploit? Can you please save us from the ignorance, oh great bobbit? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Sylfamas Caldari RRom Industries	Posted - 2008.12.24 07:01:00 - [2646] Edited by: Sylfamas on 24/12/2008 07:01:34 Originally by: Information Broker Or, I've just been thinking and.. What if this was MEANT to happen by CCP and for this to be a lead-in with the most-likely-to-happen mineral inflation with our next expansion (march 10th) and these wormholes/new systems supposed to have the moons which will bridge the lack of minerals which would BOOM exploration, bring in more minerals, and partially if not fully stabilize the hole? ^ Or maybe that part of the expansion is due to the realization of this exploit and CCP didn't want to just right-away open up new systems, T3, etc.. to fix this and had to take their time, and ban them around the time they were ready to open up these systems/wormholes? And that fit in perfectly with T3 Ships.. You watched ZeitGeist too many times (awsome movie btw). I don't think CCP as a RL corporation condoned this as this has an impact on their subscriptions. People canceling accounts means losing money. But we DO KNOW from past problems that some CCP devs have characters or close ties with other people in EVE, some in smaller alliances, some in bigger alliances, so we can assume that someone must've known about this, but they couldn't have been so transparent on this right ? I mean i don't know who would've wanted to play anymore in a game where some are advantaged by those who created the game in the first place. Everything is a big fuss anyway because until this day i haven't seen an increase in T2 modules prices (an increase as in a real value increase not just some speculators trying their luck for the profit). So it's love it and play it or leave it :) -----------------Signature------------------------- I only have one rule: Everyone fights, no one quits.
Thommy	Posted - 2008.12.24 08:14:00 - [2647] Another sad chapter for eve-online, the extend of this one is even more unbelievable then the previous exploits. Makes me wonder how many legit people where again duped for their long, hard work to get their assets only to get it killed by ill, illegaly gained assets owned by malpracticing players. This is a real bad job record once more for CCP and Eve-online and it is once again not something that makes the game stand out possitively. I do not know how others thing about it but negative publicity is not good, it may make a few people get interested who enjoy things like that but it will no doubt be another deciding factor for alot of people to consider to start looking for other games because they have no way to know if all things they lost where legit or by illegit gained stuff. It is sad when a great game is going down in reputation because of many things that shadow over the good things that are still in the game. Guide \| Patch day
Niegel	Posted - 2008.12.24 09:02:00 - [2648] Banning of all alts is a very hard punishment. Do it the eve-way: take away a part of all alts&main-skillpoints
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:51:00 - [2649] It's CCP. What did you expect?
Todd Doughnut	Posted - 2008.12.24 20:25:00 - [2650] According to the latest information from CCP, there is a good chance this bug has existed for years, and was bug reported. However CCP took no action regarding the bug report(s) and the "exploit" was allowed to continue. Now pardon me for being obtuse here, but by doing nothing about this issue FOR YEARS and ignoring the bug reports, a player might be forgiven for taking this as tacit approval, or at the very least a laissez faire attitude on the part of CCP, right? This game is extremely complex, and generates a lot of situations which are grossly unfair, and yet not exploits. Obviously this is a broken mechanic and falls into a different category of "unfair", but the situation for players who have reported the bug, received no response, and were subsequently banned would seem to be unfair also. As I see it, this exploit is an in-game "crime". Crimes should be punished, no doubt, but should laws be applied retroactively? so as to criminalise players for previous deeds which were at worst questionable, but not actually classified as crimes at the time? Surely a more just and equitable solution would be something on a par with government aquisition of criminal assets. A massively negative wallet balance for example. However CCP plans to proceed, I hope they understand their own responsibility in the matter and temper their justice accordingly.

Nik W	Posted - 2008.12.24 21:40:00 - [2651] Originally by: Todd Doughnut According to the latest information from CCP, there is a good chance this bug has existed for years, and was bug reported. However CCP took no action regarding the bug report(s) and the "exploit" was allowed to continue. Now pardon me for being obtuse here, but by doing nothing about this issue FOR YEARS and ignoring the bug reports, a player might be forgiven for taking this as tacit approval, or at the very least a laissez faire attitude on the part of CCP, right? This game is extremely complex, and generates a lot of situations which are grossly unfair, and yet not exploits. Obviously this is a broken mechanic and falls into a different category of "unfair", but the situation for players who have reported the bug, received no response, and were subsequently banned would seem to be unfair also. As I see it, this exploit is an in-game "crime". Crimes should be punished, no doubt, but should laws be applied retroactively? so as to criminalise players for previous deeds which were at worst questionable, but not actually classified as crimes at the time? Surely a more just and equitable solution would be something on a par with government aquisition of criminal assets. A massively negative wallet balance for example. However CCP plans to proceed, I hope they understand their own responsibility in the matter and temper their justice accordingly. How was what they did not classified as a crime? It's pretty clear in the EULA that broken game mechanics - "exploits" - are not to be used. This was more than an ingame "crime" as it allowed perpetual wealth with little work. It has and will continue to have an impact on the economy for some time. CCP should have fixed it, absolutely. But just because it works doesn't mean you aren't blatantly cheating. The fact they petitioned it shows they knew it shouldn't do that, but it did. Sadly it may have shaped the Eve world as we know it. It's much easier to secure a 0.0 system with a trillion or 2 ISK. How can CCP fix it? I doubt they can....but being transparent on this will be important.
AutumnWalker	Posted - 2008.12.25 03:29:00 - [2652] Originally by: Squirrrel Originally by: Mavric Quote: The service CCP provides is this game. It is not permanent, given, but while our subscriptions last they can't pull the plug without consequences. They can pull the plug at the very momentall subscriptions end, but that would be as smart as Coke stop selling soft-drinks. This is how they make money, my friend, they pull the plug they shoot their own head... You should probably read the EULA. It is almost standard wording on any online service that they can shut down without notice and not be responsible. They are also not required to refund any outstanging ballance for unplayed time. I'm not sure that's strictly true looking at the wording per-section: Quote: EULA: 6. TERMINATION; SUSPENSION OF ACCOUNT A. By CCP for Termination of the Game CCP does not guarantee that it will continue to offer access to the System or support the Game. CCP may, in its sole discretion, cease to provide any or all of the services offered in connection with EVE (including access to the System and any or all features or components of the Game), terminate the EULA, close all Accounts and cancel all of the rights granted to you under the EULA. CCP may communicate such termination to you upon 30 days notice in any of the following manners: (i) when you log into your Account; (ii) in a notice on CCP's website; (iii) via electronic mail; or (iv) in another manner that CCP deems suitable to inform you of the termination. If CCP terminates the EULA pursuant to this section, you will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees. You're correct about the subscription fees on this basis. Quote: 16. GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUMThe EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland, (HTra=sd=mur Reykjavfkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland. MISCELLANEOUS If any part of the EULA is held invalid or unenforceable, that portion shall be construed in a manner consistent with applicable law to reflect, as nearly as possible, the original intentions of the parties expressed in the EULA, and the remaining portions shall remain in full force and effect. You shall comply with all applicable laws regarding your access to and use of the System, use of the Software, your access to your Account and your playing of the Game. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not download, use or otherwise export or re-export any part of the information accessible through the System or the Software except in full compliance with all applicable laws and regulations. The only question would be, what is the law of Iceland in regards to compensation for the total shutdown of the game. Unless they mass-ban the player base with time remaining on accounts, law still might override the EULA. ... and regardless of CCP's EULA, credit card companies can be extremely liberal when dealing with consumer chargebacks. The first thing that I would do if I was amoung the banned is to initiate as many chargebacks as I could - depriving CCP of at least some income.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.12.25 04:11:00 - [2653] Originally by: Todd Doughnut According to the latest information from CCP, there is a good chance this bug has existed for years, and was bug reported. However CCP took no action regarding the bug report(s) and the "exploit" was allowed to continue. Are you talking about the same bug report posted earlier, where it was sent using German, closed (rather than confirmed as not an exploit) and told to refile. If ever I find an exploit, I'll report it using Japanese, just to ensure I'll be able to exploit it without fear of the banstick?
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.25 06:00:00 - [2654] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 25/12/2008 06:01:31 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Todd Doughnut According to the latest information from CCP, there is a good chance this bug has existed for years, and was bug reported. However CCP took no action regarding the bug report(s) and the "exploit" was allowed to continue. Are you talking about the same bug report posted earlier, where it was sent using German, closed (rather than confirmed as not an exploit) and told to refile. If ever I find an exploit, I'll report it using Japanese, just to ensure I'll be able to exploit it without fear of the banstick? I don't know about Japanese support, but CCP has even a German language forum. It would stand to reason that they would have people in the GM staff that are able to understand German. Either way the guys were banned regardless of the petition, so I would advise against this plan ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
ChalSto LOCKDOWN. HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.12.25 14:04:00 - [2655] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 25/12/2008 06:01:31 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Todd Doughnut According to the latest information from CCP, there is a good chance this bug has existed for years, and was bug reported. However CCP took no action regarding the bug report(s) and the "exploit" was allowed to continue. Are you talking about the same bug report posted earlier, where it was sent using German, closed (rather than confirmed as not an exploit) and told to refile. If ever I find an exploit, I'll report it using Japanese, just to ensure I'll be able to exploit it without fear of the banstick? I don't know about Japanese support, but CCP has even a German language forum. It would stand to reason that they would have people in the GM staff that are able to understand German. Either way the guys were banned regardless of the petition, so I would advise against this plan Back in 2004 there was no german CCP support. Back to today: Now they have. But the quality of the german GMs are more than questionable Originally by: Agmar ----------------------------------------------- "The North is so ghey that even the NPCs fly ravens."
vladtube	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:00:00 - [2656] It is my belief that a small corp that use to sell me a few billion a week in reactions was using this exploit. Why do I say this ? Since the day before this fiasco hit the person who I was buying direct from has not logged on . Why do I know this? I was trying to hit him up for another load of simple reactions. Which is strange as they use to be logged on every single day. At times we had friendly conversations . As my needs for simple reactions grew I became concerned if I could keep getting larger and larger product amounts. His answer, which at the time I took to just be arrogance, was that as many as I needed he could get. The whole time haggling over price so as to compensate for movement in the market. From these conversations I gathered some information that is very interesting.One would be his corp was a front for a corp that is in one of the big alliances not named. Being that many corps in alliances have front corps to shield them from the limelight of everyone knowing what they sell and how much isk they are making, I did not think it was odd. But today I think it is clearly odd and suspect. Is their proof nothing other than my supplier basically up and disppeared the very day this all broke?..NO. The corp and supplier who is the ceo are at this time not banned. First answer to a question that may be asked. Why did I not name his name or the alliance etc. Without proper proof I feel it would be in bad taste to smear anyone of wrong doing. I have dropped a dime to CCP though. Better to let them sort it out. Fighting about who did what and not knowing is pointless. I am bringing this about becouse I am sure I am not alone having a supplier up and disappear. By the way I am in need of 2 to 3 billion a week or there abouts in simple reactions...if I can get a new supplier..dire need of prometium ..Good luck on standing in line in jita.... Originally by: GySgt Kossori Sorry, but I have to disagree, Etho. The only reason everyone jumps down BoB's throats is for the same reason everyone jumps down Wal-Mart's throats: They're the big, prominent target. Do you, or anyone for that matter, have any evidence that BoB, Goons, RA, etc had anything to do with it? Seems to me like everyone jumps on the "I hate big alliances" bandwagon and immediately points fingers at them. And, to be quite honest, I don't want the big alliances getting banned...Then that way I still have people to shoot at who will shoot back and will be a challenge. Not some random noob who just got his first Myrmidon and loses it because he doesn't know how to fit it properly.... Anyways, back to the subject at hand. No one in this thread can give any solid evidence that the said alliances had anything to do with it. And don't give me the whole "Well, the T20 incident involved BoB" because that's not evidence regarding to THIS issue.
Entreri Finwe The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:00:00 - [2657] This thread needs a "/ignore .tinfoil" command... Originally by:* jarack I de-synced in my bathroom once, now i have no where to wash my hands
Valkerias	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:41:00 - [2658] Edited by: Valkerias on 25/12/2008 20:44:46 Players strike CCP perfectly wrecking for 89 pages damage. Emol's commentary was just too funny. His multiple postings did indeed look like he was arguing with HIMSELF, quoting random people in the process. The formula was something like this... "Some general blanket statement or insult." <response> (Quote response) "No I did NOT Say/mean that.." <new post> (Quote someone else) "Yes I did! (Insult intelligence/ sanity/ age or name of poster)"
Alois Hammer Minmatar Dinochrome Brigade Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:35:00 - [2659] well it took me a few days to catch up but it was well worth it!!!! etho , kudos on the well written mountains of info!!! you should be my financial adviser , mine apparently speaks turkish for all i can understand of market and...stuff be as it may be , its getting interesting in the geo-financial-political situation within EVE. this little "hiccup" is gona cause a huuge effect thru-out the game mechanics. industrialists might actually eek out a living again.......
DemonriderII	Posted - 2008.12.26 09:55:00 - [2660] Just when i was about to check eve again after a break again another goddamn goof up seems to be a sickness in this game Who the **** puts these exploits in anyway you wont tell me they missing this. Game seems to dig its own grave ooh and only 70 accounts were using this yeah right.

Abulurd Boniface Gallente Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:02:00 - [2661] Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 26/12/2008 15:04:40 Originally by: Nik W How was what they did not classified as a crime? It's pretty clear in the EULA that broken game mechanics - "exploits" - are not to be used. CCP should have fixed it, absolutely. But just because it works doesn't mean you aren't blatantly cheating. The fact they petitioned it shows they knew it shouldn't do that, but it did.. I do not accept that this is an exploit. If CCP were indeed aware of how this functionality works and did nothing then it acquires the status of 'feature'. Obviously it has a very disruptive character, but CCP decided to ignore the issue. A major lapse of common sense. The EULA statement that broken game mechanics are not to be used brings a warm smile to my face. It's the user now who has to be an expert on what constitutes broken game mechanics? I don't think so. It is the designer's product and their sole responsibility. The user has many things going on in their life: the kids are yelling, the wife is kvetching, the boss is nagging and 500 emails need urgent responses. The tax man wants part of your liver, the car dealer needs the last payment, mother-in-law is visiting for 2 weeks and the dog just emptied its entire gastro-intestinal tract on the new carpet. And oh yeah, about that online game thing you were playing? Please acquire expert knowledge of game mechanics so that when you find something that doesn't work as we intended [but we're not telling you how it is supposed to work in the first place], you can refrain from using it and report it to us so we can ignore it for 4 years. No, my dear friends. CCP can scarcely be bothered to explain how the very basics of its game works and offers a laughable help system that does not address most of the questions the user has about how the environment works. Now an obscure feature in the game apparently malfunctions and the user who, after reporting it only to find their petition ignored, finds the functionality to keep working the way they found it to be working for YEARS ON END, can only conclude that this is in fact how the functionality was intended to work. Thus, working within the limits of what the game allows, after having reported it and found their petition answered with deafening silence, it is the paying customer who bears the brunt of the belated wrath of the constructor for using functionality the constructor introduced and did not bother to adjust after having been notified of an apparent anomaly. Tell me, in terms a lay men can understand, how it is the paying customer who has to suffer the consequence of the incompetence of the constructor's manufacturing process. If this was, as it appears to be, a bug it is CCP's responsibility to fix it. They should restore the POS installations to their owners and reinstate the accounts deleted for using the system. If they knew about the problem and did not choose to address it, holding the customer responsible for manufacturing faults is a feat of astounding callousness. Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease.
Justice Starcatcher H A V O C	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:58:00 - [2662] Originally by: Todd Doughnut According to the latest information from CCP, there is a good chance this bug has existed for years, and was bug reported. What have you been reading, or smoking? There is no indication that CCP received a bug report on this. The "supposed" bug report is just a fantasy created by the guilty to try to garner some sympathy. What the...
MMXMMX Caldari Resistance is Futile	Posted - 2008.12.26 22:39:00 - [2663] Edited by: MMXMMX on 26/12/2008 22:41:06
Quantum Pyre	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:11:00 - [2664] I think expulsion from Eve is a bit harsh. How many people are glad they never heard about it and tried themselves.
Bruce Leroi	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:26:00 - [2665] Ha...well....those people will surely get their chance to be banned, eventually. And good riddance. If your worry is that only luck and ignorance kept you from being guilty also, then you're not the type of player the rest of us want to have to deal with, anyway. That will get no sympathy, here. Just quit Eve now so the honest people can have a better time playing.
Dakotix Gallente Intaki Liberation Front	Posted - 2008.12.27 02:52:00 - [2666] While I agree that those who exploited this error in the game should be held accountable, it seems they are also being made scapegoats. After all, its not as if they hacked into the game and changed it to suit their needs. This was an error on CCP's part that has gone on for YEARS. And what's even worse there were petitions, or so rumor has spread, that they were informed by those who were taking advantage of the exploit that it existed and they did nothing. Now they are treating it like it were some sort of international incident or conspiracy. They characterize it as a day that will live on in infamoumy lol... I mean really CCP, you screwed up in your coding. Get over yourselves and fix it and move on. I think banning was a bit harsh. But that's just my honest little opinion.
Macita DePuerco	Posted - 2008.12.27 03:23:00 - [2667] Originally by: Euriti How is this affecting the economy? How much of the ferrogel supply was comming from this exploit? From further reading from one of the individuals involved that got banned he said that over the course of 4 years he estimates that it was in excess of 4 trillion isk, said that he maintained 4 accounts and never paid a single subscription fee for any of those accounts nor did any of the members of his corp and that there were 3 other BIG BLOCK alliances involved with this. These figures if proven even half true is staggering, means the manipulation of market supply had a direct, not indirect, but a staggeringly direct affect in the Eve market. Growth potential by these Alliance's involved would also prove that staging of past and current logistics by these alliance would not have been possible to the extent known today. It should also be noted that "far reaching into the economy" Is an understatement as these statements precludes the affects these resources had in purchasing IPO's, investment in Capital Ship building and deployment, unmatched defensive/offensive resource, T2 market price monopoly and manipulation, totaly unfair advantage in previous BPO raffles, if this is true, if the OP who was only one person out of may be hundreds that was involved in this scam/exploit if only half of his statement is true. This would be the equivalent of a Massive RL Corporation deciding to printing their own currency, to the extent that RL monies that may or may not have been gotten from the sale of Isk for Real cash, or the Isk Farmer from Billionaire Road as every Isk that was used by the exploiters over the course of 4 years would have reached half of the player base in one form or another. The op has not divulged who the other alliances where, only that it involved the 3 big blocks in Eve, sadly this could represent 1.(YOU FILL IN THE BLANK) 2.(YOU FILL IN THE BLANK) 3.(YOU FILL IN THE BLANK)
elric gallach	Posted - 2008.12.27 11:27:00 - [2668] Originally by: Macita DePuerco Originally by: Euriti How is this affecting the economy? How much of the ferrogel supply was comming from this exploit? From further reading from one of the individuals involved that got banned he said that over the course of 4 years he estimates that it was in excess of 4 trillion isk, said that he maintained 4 accounts and never paid a single subscription fee for any of those accounts nor did any of the members of his corp and that there were 3 other BIG BLOCK alliances involved with this. These figures if proven even half true is staggering, means the manipulation of market supply had a direct, not indirect, but a staggeringly direct affect in the Eve market. Growth potential by these Alliance's involved would also prove that staging of past and current logistics by these alliance would not have been possible to the extent known today. It should also be noted that "far reaching into the economy" Is an understatement as these statements precludes the affects these resources had in purchasing IPO's, investment in Capital Ship building and deployment, unmatched defensive/offensive resource, T2 market price monopoly and manipulation, totaly unfair advantage in previous BPO raffles, if this is true, if the OP who was only one person out of may be hundreds that was involved in this scam/exploit if only half of his statement is true. This would be the equivalent of a Massive RL Corporation deciding to printing their own currency, to the extent that RL monies that may or may not have been gotten from the sale of Isk for Real cash, or the Isk Farmer from Billionaire Road as every Isk that was used by the exploiters over the course of 4 years would have reached half of the player base in one form or another. The op has not divulged who the other alliances where, only that it involved the 3 big blocks in Eve, sadly this could represent 1.(YOU FILL IN THE BLANK) 2.(YOU FILL IN THE BLANK) 3.(YOU FILL IN THE BLANK) ------------------------------------------------------------ Did they have a massive impact on the eve universe.? Oh yes Do they deserve to be banned. ? Oh yes very much so Should CCP ban them then?. MAYBE Is CCP able to afford the loss of so many accounts lets face it were in a world recession. every dollar yen pound helps eve to survive. There would be less people to play against. -------------------------------------------------------- FAR BETTER TO TAKE THEM BACK TO CHARACTER DESIGN SCREEN -------------------------------------------------------- and let them deside if they want to carry on playing from there as newbs again. no ships no isk no alliance etc. And yes the corps alliances should be named just my thoughts on this
Victoria Terpsichore	Posted - 2008.12.27 16:33:00 - [2669] Originally by: elric gallach Did they have a massive impact on the eve universe.? Oh yes Do they deserve to be banned. ? Oh yes very much so Should CCP ban them then?. MAYBE Is CCP able to afford the loss of so many accounts lets face it were in a world recession. every dollar yen pound helps eve to survive. There would be less people to play against. -------------------------------------------------------- FAR BETTER TO TAKE THEM BACK TO CHARACTER DESIGN SCREEN -------------------------------------------------------- and let them deside if they want to carry on playing from there as newbs again. no ships no isk no alliance etc. And yes the corps alliances should be named just my thoughts on this these folks were most likely using isk to buy timecards.. so i don't think " affording to lose the account subscriptions" is a big deal at all.
riverini	Posted - 2008.12.28 01:12:00 - [2670] Originally by: Victoria Terpsichore Originally by: elric gallach Did they have a massive impact on the eve universe.? Oh yes Do they deserve to be banned. ? Oh yes very much so Should CCP ban them then?. MAYBE Is CCP able to afford the loss of so many accounts lets face it were in a world recession. every dollar yen pound helps eve to survive. There would be less people to play against. -------------------------------------------------------- FAR BETTER TO TAKE THEM BACK TO CHARACTER DESIGN SCREEN -------------------------------------------------------- and let them deside if they want to carry on playing from there as newbs again. no ships no isk no alliance etc. And yes the corps alliances should be named just my thoughts on this these folks were most likely using isk to buy timecards.. so i don't think " affording to lose the account subscriptions" is a big deal at all. I have to agree with victoria here, even so, how much real $$$ could have been doing selling GTC and online ebay ISK?, we are not talking of just mine farmers anymore am sure that that "revenue loss" is one that CCP sure is gonna feel Mad about.

hudders Caldari Demio's Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:11:00 - [2671] just a game guys, chill If you dont like it dont play. [img]http://www.battleclinic.com/kill_sigs/signature_display
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.29 03:44:00 - [2672] One certianly has to laugh at this whole situation. I am glad it was (semi) uncovered that this was going on. Kudos to whoever dropped this dime in the 3rd party forum. I'll throw a vote into the pile for transparency of the involved players and their corps. I agree that this is CCPs ultimate fault.. but at the same time these players knew this was not how the system worked. If you are at this level.. you know! So they are equally as guilty as CCP. CCP absolutely knows what is going on here. They are programmers.. nothing can happen unless the code is there to make it happen. Please do not insult my intelligence with this being an exploit you missed for a year or 4 years.. a month..whatever.. In 20 years of online gaming, and even being the marketing arm for a small UT mod..rest assured.. the programmers know every bug and exploit! Most exploits in a 3D game are map and object based... This doesn't exist.. but for example sake..say a ceptor is able to penetrate a pos shield by using a high end mwd and rams the shield to gain entry. This bug/exploit (if you can call it that) is one that involves postive(i.e. mining yield) and negative (i.e. fuel consumption) numric quantities.. it HAS to be programmed in. As far as those who took advantage of the system.. I hope all your corps and accounts crumble to dust! It just makes it all the better for those who remain. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Garnet Alf	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:35:00 - [2673] Originally by: hudders just a game guys, chill If you dont like it dont play. Thanks for your well thought out and insightful comment.
Garnet Alf	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:42:00 - [2674] Originally by: URUS FORGE This bug/exploit (if you can call it that) is one that involves postive(i.e. mining yield) and negative (i.e. fuel consumption) numric quantities.. it HAS to be programmed in. I agree with this comment. It is well known in programming circles that you run sample information through some code to check that it is working ok. This "exploit" could stem from a simple programming test that was left in either because no one at CCP thought it would be found, or someone at CCP has used to further the aims of their own corp within the game. Are there any corps that CCP has been involved in? Pretty sure I have read that they have indeed been involved within the game as players. They do after all claim to be gamers themselves. Are there any alliances who seem to be escaping these bans? Word on the grapevine is that no one involved in a BoB corp has been banned. I don't know if that is true or not, but something smells distinctly piscean to me.
Garnet Alf	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:56:00 - [2675] Originally by: Justice Starcatcher What have you been reading, or smoking? There is no indication that CCP received a bug report on this. Correction: There is no admittance by CCP that they received a bug report. That's very different from them not having received a bugf report. Quote: The "supposed" bug report is just a fantasy created by the guilty to try to garner some sympathy. The guilty who said it before any bans came in you mean?
Garnet Alf	Posted - 2008.12.29 12:00:00 - [2676] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic It's CCP. What did you expect? Wow. I am startled by your ability to assess the situation.
Nik W	Posted - 2008.12.29 16:16:00 - [2677] Originally by: Abulurd Boniface Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 26/12/2008 15:04:40 I do not accept that this is an exploit. If CCP were indeed aware of how this functionality works and did nothing then it acquires the status of 'feature'. Obviously it has a very disruptive character, but CCP decided to ignore the issue. A major lapse of common sense. The EULA statement that broken game mechanics are not to be used brings a warm smile to my face. It's the user now who has to be an expert on what constitutes broken game mechanics? I don't think so. It is the designer's product and their sole responsibility. The user has many things going on in their life: the kids are yelling, the wife is kvetching, the boss is nagging and 500 emails need urgent responses. The tax man wants part of your liver, the car dealer needs the last payment, mother-in-law is visiting for 2 weeks and the dog just emptied its entire gastro-intestinal tract on the new carpet. And oh yeah, about that online game thing you were playing? Please acquire expert knowledge of game mechanics so that when you find something that doesn't work as we intended [but we're not telling you how it is supposed to work in the first place], you can refrain from using it and report it to us so we can ignore it for 4 years. No, my dear friends. CCP can scarcely be bothered to explain how the very basics of its game works and offers a laughable help system that does not address most of the questions the user has about how the environment works. Now an obscure feature in the game apparently malfunctions and the user who, after reporting it only to find their petition ignored, finds the functionality to keep working the way they found it to be working for YEARS ON END, can only conclude that this is in fact how the functionality was intended to work. Thus, working within the limits of what the game allows, after having reported it and found their petition answered with deafening silence, it is the paying customer who bears the brunt of the belated wrath of the constructor for using functionality the constructor introduced and did not bother to adjust after having been notified of an apparent anomaly. Tell me, in terms a lay men can understand, how it is the paying customer who has to suffer the consequence of the incompetence of the constructor's manufacturing process. If this was, as it appears to be, a bug it is CCP's responsibility to fix it. They should restore the POS installations to their owners and reinstate the accounts deleted for using the system. If they knew about the problem and did not choose to address it, holding the customer responsible for manufacturing faults is a feat of astounding callousness. Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO Are you for real? Do you think that you need to be an expert in game mechanics to know that your silos shouldn't fill up when your POS isn't being refueled? I have a perpetual motion machine for sale, would you like to buy it? I'm not a mechanic, but I know my car stops working if I don't refuel it. If I find a way to place a buy order without ISK leaving my wallet, should I be responsible if I use it? It doesn't take a genius to see this is an exploit. The people involved admitted they knew the day would come. Just because you don't accept this as an exploit doesn't make it that way. If those involved thought it was supposed to work the way it did they should be banned based on sheer stupidity.
Krep	Posted - 2008.12.29 17:43:00 - [2678] I've always objected to companies banning players for taking advantage of something the company in question broke in the first place. This is a game, not an online test of morality. If you find an exploit, fix it. Banning players doesn't reduce the damage and only introduces a small "now you know what happens to players to use exploits" element. Just be quiet and fix your bugs/exploits and don't pretend this requires a glorified CSI:Eve Online investigation to cover up the fact that you let a major exploit exist for years. Do your job.
Krep	Posted - 2008.12.29 18:14:00 - [2679] Originally by: Bruce Leroi Ha...well....those people will surely get their chance to be banned, eventually. And good riddance. If your worry is that only luck and ignorance kept you from being guilty also, then you're not the type of player the rest of us want to have to deal with, anyway. That will get no sympathy, here. Just quit Eve now so the honest people can have a better time playing. Oh please. EVE was made to be harsh and cold. If CCP can't be arsed to unit test their code properly they shouldn't moan now, and neither should you. If you want fairness and excessive morality go have a browse on www.oprah.com. And spare me the honesty speech. The guy or girl you're responding to is honest, you're just politically correct.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.30 00:44:00 - [2680] Is it right that CCP left this (without a doubt in my mind) known issue (to them) alone (for any amount of time) for people (of CCPs choosing) to exploit? no! Did everyone at CCP know about it? I will give the benefit of the doubt here. Could be a few people with the intent on personal gain via real world dollars..GTCs etc.. I see recently one illegal isk seller now offers GTCs.. hmm? Is it right that others found this exploit (they all knew it was an exploit) and used it to their advantage? no.. So whoever at CCP should be roasted at the stake along with all of their allies who used it.. it's that simple. CCP has the ability to track this down instantly! We all know this from illegal isk sellers/buyers being caught, banned or heavily penalized with negative isk. So CCP certianly knows the full extent of this.. do not fool yourself with their corporate mumbo jumbo. That is my rational take.. If you want to go full blown conspiracy theory... one could say that CCP is actually behind their own illegal isk selling and have used it to manipulate us into paying more for the so-called legal way of GTC for isk trading. And this whole thing is a way to make isk worth less, so that people ultimately will have to buy more GTCs to stay afloat. I have no proof of any of that..and I am not one to draw way out conclusions.. but the dots certianly exist. Will CCP punish ALL of those involved? doubtful Will they reveal those involved? doubtful Will I stop playing EvE.. doubtful.. it's the best MMORPG out, and it still has yet to reach its full potential. If CCP takes full action on all those involved.. I will be satisfied.. again.. this is doubtful. So it sucks! but i'll live with it. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell

Susung Alt Anti-defamation League	Posted - 2008.12.30 04:48:00 - [2681] Personally I think the punishment should be painfull and public, it helps to dissuade future exploiters. I do applaud CCP for bringing it right out into the open and dealing with the fallout and I trust them to do what is best for the game, in the long run that is what is best for me. My biggest concern is the market. OF COURSE the exploitation has increased more recently invention has driven the demand for moon mins higher and higher. I have always wondered why prices seemed to not raise much from pre-invention levels, well here's the answer. There needs to be an analysis of the effects and a PUBLIC airing of the resolution. Finally something worthwhile for the CSM to ponder me thinks. PS I am kinda fond of the idea of a moon mining COV OPS ship
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.30 05:48:00 - [2682] one more note.. it seems prices have already risen in hi-sec areas near jita. Some have as much as doubled. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Bruce Destro	Posted - 2008.12.30 10:11:00 - [2683] i have a few things to say. first i believe that the isk on the 70 or however many accounts AND the isk in the corp wallets should be distributed to all affected players depending on how long their accounts have been active during the exploit and to the total numbers of non trial accounts that were active for a certain peroid or longer during the exploit. im sure the isk will total in the billions. distributing this fairly to these members maybe difficult. but i see it as the only way to make it up to use who have had an unfair advantage gaining economic stability.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.30 17:39:00 - [2684] Originally by: Bruce Destro i have a few things to say. first i believe that the isk on the 70 or however many accounts AND the isk in the corp wallets should be distributed to all affected players depending on how long their accounts have been active during the exploit and to the total numbers of non trial accounts that were active for a certain peroid or longer during the exploit. im sure the isk will total in the billions. distributing this fairly to these members maybe difficult. but i see it as the only way to make it up to use who have had an unfair advantage gaining economic stability. Actually that would balance it out. You offset the 0 cost product with 0 cost isk to those effected. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Steph Wing Gallente Wingnuts Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.31 10:56:00 - [2685] Posting in a threadnaught.
Blonde Shopper	Posted - 2009.01.01 01:47:00 - [2686] Edited by: Blonde Shopper on 01/01/2009 01:47:32 New page for the new year? Perhaps in more ways than 1... Or... Maybe not, same old, same old...
JagdWulfe	Posted - 2009.01.01 10:53:00 - [2687] Originally by: Krep I've always objected to companies banning players for taking advantage of something the company in question broke in the first place. This is a game, not an online test of morality. If you find an exploit, fix it. Banning players doesn't reduce the damage and only introduces a small "now you know what happens to players to use exploits" element. Just be quiet and fix your bugs/exploits and don't pretend this requires a glorified CSI:Eve Online investigation to cover up the fact that you let a major exploit exist for years. Do your job. I have to respectfully disagree. Finding an exploit you should as a player report this. It is no different than the idiots that play BF2 and hide in bushes and such so they are unkillable. I have no pity on the people that got caught and they should be shamed publiclly.
mythpilot	Posted - 2009.01.01 20:06:00 - [2688] i agree with the guy above me (Happy New Year keep the threadnought STRONG)
Quantum Pyre	Posted - 2009.01.02 20:38:00 - [2689] Edited by: Quantum Pyre on 02/01/2009 20:45:25 Edited by: Quantum Pyre on 02/01/2009 20:39:59 I don't exactly understand what they were making, minerals? Then high end goods? I've noticed mineral prices have been low. I've been training for tech 2 manufacture, that's a lot of training. Seems to be a profit in tech 2 items. Will the market price for the high tech items, needed for manufacturing, that I have been observing, go up and make that all moot? I haven't got a clue how they did this. ie click this button, then that...? I don't know, if I found that happening, whether I would worry, I'd probably keep doing it. But I don't steal or rip of other players. I don't attack weaker opponents, I'm not a pirate. I hope no good, innocent ppl got caught up. Ppl who spend hundreds of hours and isk helping and building their corp, unaware... I think we need more information! "Destroying starbases", but they said they're still investigating. Shouldn't that be done after an investigation? Sorry, I worry sometimes, I'm enjoying this game, I'm investing a great deal too much time playing it. In a year or five it could just disappear, **** happens. BUT I DON'T WANT THE THREAT OF AN ARBITRARY CCP CLOSING MY ACCOUNT! My initial thought is a trial, we need more information! Not like a real world trial. A fact finding. Then a survey... vote? And while I'm on the subject of a negative attitude: The text "select one item", using 'autolink', should be green, not red; When I select a destination, again, I want it to say "destination confirmed", NOT "You can not select the same destination twice", plz. I don't like my computer giving me 'attitude'.
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2009.01.03 09:01:00 - [2690] so when will ccp compensate all of eve for this ??? it had impact on all of us.

Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.03 12:07:00 - [2691] Originally by: Anglo so when will ccp compensate all of eve for this ??? it had impact on all of us. "Compensate" how? Should CCP dupe a few billion ISK for every character in the game? I hear printing vast sums of money is a great solution to all economic problems, c/d? The damage is done, the only thing CCP can do is fix the code which allowed the exploit (which it seems they have done) and make sure it doesn't happen again. -----------
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:48:00 - [2692] My understanding is that the POS basically ran for free without fuel costs. Odds are unless you had access to these POS's you don't have to worry. The reality is these are mostly alt chars in alt corps.. these are alts from some of the largest corps in game... used alts so CCP can create plausible deniability about this 100% intended flaw. The impact is staggering.. some prices have risen as much as 50% It would be easy to CCP to offset this problem. Calculate the illegal material in game as a percentage of the whole. Distribute equally among all active players this same % of isk. It would take time.. but it would ultimately balance out. CCP should 1) fire their economist 2) fire the coder 3) ban everyone directly involved. CCP will 1) ban alts but not the mains 2) find a new way for the major corps to exploit the game so they can fund these massive wars to continue rather than allow these major corps to lose their foothold in low/no sec.. In essence we are talking about a USA big 3 auto bail out being kept under the rug.. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Xarosa Minmatar Red.	Posted - 2009.01.04 08:37:00 - [2693] Originally by: URUS FORGE My understanding is that... <SNIP!> Enough of this bulls**t! Do you happen to know the meaning of libel, slander, vilification, disambiguation and defamation? You sure say a lot but your words mean nothing without evidence. I suggest you keep your opinion(s) to yourself because that's all they are! Are you one of those involved in the moongate scandal and annoyed that you got caught, so you're starting a contemptuous smear campaign against ccp? Sure sounds like it to me. Petulant fool. -)(-
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:05:00 - [2694] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: URUS FORGE My understanding is that... <SNIP!> Enough of this bullst! Do you happen to know the meaning of libel, slander, vilification, disambiguation and defamation? You sure say a lot but your words mean nothing without evidence. I suggest you keep your opinion(s) to yourself because that's all they are! Are you one of those involved in the moongate scandal and annoyed that you got caught, so you're starting a contemptuous smear campaign against ccp? Sure sounds like it to me. Petulant fool. Ya I am in on it .. you got me... thats why I want all the people involved banned. That is why I want CCP to be completely transparent. You have exposed my mastermind plot. Please sue me! really.. I want to see the judge laughing as he slams the gavel down. CCP won't ban all the players involved in this .. because of $... you think they are gonna spend $ of a lawyer based on what I have written? laughable! They are more than welcome too.. I have 3 lawyer friends from college willing to be entertained. Lets put the known pieces together 1-4 years of free fuel to MM and run several stations. 70 banned people (easily these are all over 1 year chars, and definatly alts to be able to pull this off. You don't just come in EvE as a noob and know how to set up a station and figure all this out your 1st year, let alone be allowed to have a station in low/nosec without any of the big 3 knowing about it or approving it) CCP claims stations destroyed.. but offers no locations as to hide possible knowlededge of which of these major corps are involved? The question begs.. why is CCP protecting these players and corps? What does CCP gain or lose by not being 100% transparent? Every player of EvE not involved in this should be outraged. Your isk value has just declined, and it is going to be even more difficult to climb the ladder ..unless? you trade more GTCs? hmmmm?? and who would benefit from that? lets see.. not you... not me.. I wonder?.. it certianly is a mystery.. I can tell you with 99.9% certianty that either a) you have to hack the client side b) actually have programmed in this so-called "exploit" from CCPs side.. Odds of someone hacking a client like EvEs without CCP knowing for 1-4 years of patches and updates < 0 We now know for 100% fact the much hailed economist of EvE is a hack at best since he can't even see the obvious balance of fuel costs vs materials produced. Or he simply ignored them .. either way his credability is shot. We know for a fact that illegal isk sellers are now offering GTCs at discounted prices. I find it very hard to believe that CCP somehow is in the dark and can't sew up all the illegal isk and now GTCs.. EvE is straight spread sheet stuff.. Everything from mining, salvaging to manufacturing is easily tracked. Ok now follow closely I don't want to lose you here..because these are the absolutes we are left with. a) CCP or individuals within CCP knew about it all the way from the start and have made gain from it b) CCPs coders and economists are complete novice hacks who can't even see the most basic flaws of the game Now which one of these seems more plausible? If you need help.. ask these guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcR-DQpuorE Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
Xarosa Minmatar Red.	Posted - 2009.01.04 21:59:00 - [2695] Originally by: URUS FORGE Please sue me! really.. I want to see the judge laughing as he slams the gavel down. CCP won't ban all the players involved in this .. because of $... you think they are gonna spend $ of a lawyer based on what I have written? laughable! They are more than welcome too.. I have 3 lawyer friends from college willing to be entertained. I'm talking about EvE issues not legal issues. Take, for example, the forum rules. Quote: EVE Forum Rules The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community. In order to maintain order and a sense of community, all users should read and follow these conditions. By participating in the forum, users are affirming their willingness to comply with these terms. This memorandum has been created to provide you with information about what you can expect here, what is expected of you, and to answer some questions you may have in your use of the EVE Online forums. I believe you are well and truely in violation of Rule 5: Quote: 5. Ranting is prohibited A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents. You have clearly NOT adhered to the Eve forum rules because you are ranting and raving (venting anger, inciting rebellion, etc.) about the same issue(s) in EVERY post you make! I sincerely hope CCP read this! -)(-
Rancideous	Posted - 2009.01.05 03:22:00 - [2696] When do you think CCP is going to provide information about this topic? It's going on three to four weeks now. I hope they aren't trying to sweep it under the rug...
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.05 06:02:00 - [2697] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: URUS FORGE Please sue me! really.. I want to see the judge laughing as he slams the gavel down. CCP won't ban all the players involved in this .. because of $... you think they are gonna spend $ of a lawyer based on what I have written? laughable! They are more than welcome too.. I have 3 lawyer friends from college willing to be entertained. I'm talking about EvE issues not legal issues. Take, for example, the forum rules. Quote: EVE Forum Rules The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community. In order to maintain order and a sense of community, all users should read and follow these conditions. By participating in the forum, users are affirming their willingness to comply with these terms. This memorandum has been created to provide you with information about what you can expect here, what is expected of you, and to answer some questions you may have in your use of the EVE Online forums. I believe you are well and truely in violation of Rule 5: Quote: 5. Ranting is prohibited A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents. You have clearly NOT adhered to the Eve forum rules because you are ranting and raving (venting anger, inciting rebellion, etc.) about the same issue(s) in EVERY post you make! I sincerely hope CCP read this! Well 1st off I have called no one a "fool" as you have done.. I prefer to explain in rigid detail what I see.. and what is clearly plausible and more than likely fact. 2nd .. they will see it. I reported your post ;) I have mearly laid out the facts which were given and connected the dots.. being someone who worked closely with programmers in the old days of UT mods.. You could say I have some insider experience. Lastly.. I have every right to be angry. How I express that anger is a different matter! I am a paying CUSTOMER of a PRODUCT .. and I can and will expect a certian level of QUALITY of product & service as well as performance of said product. Lets say you are correct, they knew nothing.. then CCP is basically a buncha people who have no idea about what is really going on in their game. They have put up a huge front, and the exposure of this so-called "exploit" has proven that point with out a shadow of a doubt.. there is no way this can be argued if you are correct. Now from my perspective.. I am giving CCP (or someone at CCP) credit for having the brains to pull this kinda wool over the our eyes for 1-4 years. What I lay out is actually a smart albeit devious way to get more cash flow. I think dear sir, you forget that CCP is here to make money.. and this whole fiasco will make them more. Isk has been devalued throughout the entire game .. you can clearly see it with the prices that have risen. Now this means more work for some.. and more purchase of GTCs for others. If you would like to dispute an actual point I have made with some valid evidence of even plain logic. I am more than open minded to listen to rational debate. In fact.. I would love to be proven wrong. I think the only people I have thrown stones at, are the people I am paying for this game. And that is a right every customer has when they are not satisfied. Cheers! Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2009.01.05 08:03:00 - [2698] Xarosa, please don't feed the Troll. It just keeps him from his real job of goose-stepping around the french frier at McDonalds.
Forum Chav	Posted - 2009.01.05 11:21:00 - [2699] Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher Xarosa, please don't feed the Troll. It just keeps him from his real job of goose-stepping around the french frier at McDonalds. ouch. lmao
Esha Latang	Posted - 2009.01.05 11:53:00 - [2700] Imho if the exploit was there then they shouldn't have been punished for using it. If you discover one day that your ISK doubles by undocking, targeting a sentry gun, then redocking, what are you gonna do? Go run to CCP and tell them its happening? No, you're gonna keep doing it. The level of technology used to make Eve just means someone isn't doing their job correctly if things are allowed to continue. Finding players had done this for four years would have been major egg on CCP's face, and instead of just tucking their tail between their legs and fixing it, and simply preventing the exploiters from continuing, they decide (unjustly I feel) to punish those responsible. Eve is not a simple game. You can play it with varying levels of understanding, ranging from the very little. A total green noob can do anything he wants, target other players, etc, but he learns when he pulls that trigger that Concord is not very sympathetic. But what if said noob mines an asteroid and gets double the yield? Would he even know he was getting more than he was supposed to? So then he carries on doing this for four years and then gets an instant ban. Ridiculous. However, if these exploits were used by developers who knew about them, then they should face a ban and dismissal from CCP. Imho I don't think developers (or anyone who works for CCP) should be permitted to have a standard player account. That would put an end to the real exploiters, and those with the clear advantage on the game.

Nik W	Posted - 2009.01.05 15:55:00 - [2701] Originally by: Esha Latang Imho if the exploit was there then they shouldn't have been punished for using it. If you discover one day that your ISK doubles by undocking, targeting a sentry gun, then redocking, what are you gonna do? Go run to CCP and tell them its happening? No, you're gonna keep doing it. The level of technology used to make Eve just means someone isn't doing their job correctly if things are allowed to continue. Finding players had done this for four years would have been major egg on CCP's face, and instead of just tucking their tail between their legs and fixing it, and simply preventing the exploiters from continuing, they decide (unjustly I feel) to punish those responsible. Eve is not a simple game. You can play it with varying levels of understanding, ranging from the very little. A total green noob can do anything he wants, target other players, etc, but he learns when he pulls that trigger that Concord is not very sympathetic. But what if said noob mines an asteroid and gets double the yield? Would he even know he was getting more than he was supposed to? So then he carries on doing this for four years and then gets an instant ban. Ridiculous. However, if these exploits were used by developers who knew about them, then they should face a ban and dismissal from CCP. Imho I don't think developers (or anyone who works for CCP) should be permitted to have a standard player account. That would put an end to the real exploiters, and those with the clear advantage on the game. There's a fairly large difference between a noob miner getting double yield and this exploit. If you are able to set up a POS in 0.0 and keep it there for any sort of reasonable time, you are decidedly not a noob. These guys knew what they were doing. They knew it was cheating. CCP should track down all their alts, ban their credit card numbers, and make it as hard as possible for them to return. If they work for CCP they should be fired. No sympathy for blatant cheaters.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.05 18:02:00 - [2702] ah! the famous Troll defense! When you absolutely no basis for why you dislike someone's idea or opinion.. call them a troll.. Played like a true master. It's right up there with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up5dt_PK_7c Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Dr Westler	Posted - 2009.01.05 20:04:00 - [2703] Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher Xarosa, please don't feed the Troll. It just keeps him from his real job of goose-stepping around the french frier at McDonalds. Er... lol n00b? I don't really know what else to say, since your post is pathetic at best and more akin to a troll than to what you refer. Irony at its best.
Xarosa Minmatar Red.	Posted - 2009.01.05 21:53:00 - [2704] Originally by: Esha Latang Finding players had done this for four years would have been major egg on CCP's face, and instead of just tucking their tail between their legs and fixing it, and simply preventing the exploiters from continuing, they decide (unjustly I feel) to punish those responsible. Eve is not a simple game. You can play it with varying levels of understanding, ranging from the very little. A total green noob can do anything he wants, target other players, etc, but he learns when he pulls that trigger that Concord is not very sympathetic. But what if said noob mines an asteroid and gets double the yield? Would he even know he was getting more than he was supposed to? So then he carries on doing this for four years and then gets an instant ban. Ridiculous. I disagree. CCP do state that those found making use of exploits within EvE will be punished (see here) and appeal to all players who discover such exploits to contact them (see here). With this in mind, to further benefit the entire game universe, these exploits should be reported instead of taken advantage of. It's the players fault for making use of an exploit in EvE, not CCP's fault for overlooking a problem with their game code. We all know what will happen if we get caught cheating, so why do it in the first place? Stands to reason and should be common sense. -)(-
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.06 00:21:00 - [2705] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: Esha Latang Finding players had done this for four years would have been major egg on CCP's face, and instead of just tucking their tail between their legs and fixing it, and simply preventing the exploiters from continuing, they decide (unjustly I feel) to punish those responsible. Eve is not a simple game. You can play it with varying levels of understanding, ranging from the very little. A total green noob can do anything he wants, target other players, etc, but he learns when he pulls that trigger that Concord is not very sympathetic. But what if said noob mines an asteroid and gets double the yield? Would he even know he was getting more than he was supposed to? So then he carries on doing this for four years and then gets an instant ban. Ridiculous. I disagree. CCP do state that those found making use of exploits within EvE will be punished (see here) and appeal to all players who discover such exploits to contact them (see here). With this in mind, to further benefit the entire game universe, these exploits should be reported instead of taken advantage of. It's the players fault for making use of an exploit in EvE, not CCP's fault for overlooking a problem with their game code. We all know what will happen if we get caught cheating, so why do it in the first place? Stands to reason and should be common sense. The fact that CCP makes an attempt to seek out cheaters does not preclude CCP from being involved in "exploits" that would benefit them. The measure is not what has been done, but what is done by CCP this time and the next. Their EULA much like most games.. gives them pretty broad and flexible options, where we the customer are left with only a few options. But ok..lets give it the benefit of the doubt for a second..lets just say that these 70 people are not alts of any of the big 3..they put up multiple stations and somehow kept a stationary object out of the the big 3 corps cross hairs.. they had no probs with marauding pirates in all that time..the coders honestly missed this "bug" through the 30 odd patches a year x 1-4 years.. Let us say that all that is the truth. We are still left with one hard fact. Anyone who can balance a checkbook would have been able to see the huge discrepancy of fuel consumed vs produced materials. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Plundaar Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.06 02:22:00 - [2706] http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2608&tid=1 Read the update. 1: they're looking at starbase data to determine who has been exploiting and for how long. I can only hope that this includes direct trades to primary characters who use said materials. 2: Holiday vacations? Why do we need to know you're going to stop to take a vacation? Did they return to the case or not? 3: Old petitions are accessable? They can't find it, please petition? Well if the account is banned how would they do that? 4: We haven't seen any new updates on this even if we were promised them since 12/19/2008 Hopefully we'll get one after a month of investigation has completed. 5: Nobody knew about it? I thought that some dev's were in some of the corps out there... Are you sure that no csm and dev were in those corps? 6: Updates prior to conclusion would be a must here.
Mint Royale Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.06 05:22:00 - [2707] Originally by: Plundaar 5: Nobody knew about it? I thought that some dev's were in some of the corps out there... Are you sure that no csm and dev were in those corps? Everybody knows that all the Devs are playing in BoB - and as BoB didn't exploit the Ferrogel-POS-thingy CCP didn't find out until now :P
Rob Helle	Posted - 2009.01.06 08:17:00 - [2708] Urus, Good conspiracy theory but a bit flawed. If CCP wanted to make more money the could A) increase subscriptions or B) Program a method of introducing ISK into the game that users couldn't see or make the method legal (they set the rules). Both of these would be much easier than creating an exploit that users could see and have concerns about. This at best is poor programming and failure of quality control at worst an individual programmer trying to make money and I'm sure CCP will act accordingly if it is. Esha, I agree that CCP employees should not have normal access to tranquility especially the developers, it is open to abuse. On the other side of the coin just because you are an employee of a company should you be banned from using that product, I'm an employee of a car company and it would be a pain if I wasn't allowed to purchase the product. I'm not sure what the solution is for this.
Xarosa Minmatar Red.	Posted - 2009.01.06 09:22:00 - [2709] Originally by: Mint Royale Everybody knows that all the Devs are playing in BoB - and as BoB didn't exploit the Ferrogel-POS-thingy CCP didn't find out until now :P I don't think for 1 second if a player discovered an exploit and shared their findings with an EvE GM/Dev that exploit would be exploitable for very long. Especially with something as lucrative as moongate. Yes, a lot of peoople are looking for heads to roll but they have already rolled and some may still roll during the course of current investigations. Let's leave it CCP to be the judge on this. -)(-
Tarke Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.06 13:51:00 - [2710] So what was the issue? They were getting more stuff then they should had?

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:34:00 - [2711] Originally by: Rob Helle Urus, Good conspiracy theory but a bit flawed. If CCP wanted to make more money the could A) increase subscriptions or B) Program a method of introducing ISK into the game that users couldn't see or make the method legal (they set the rules). Both of these would be much easier than creating an exploit that users could see and have concerns about. This at best is poor programming and failure of quality control at worst an individual programmer trying to make money and I'm sure CCP will act accordingly if it is. Esha, I agree that CCP employees should not have normal access to tranquility especially the developers, it is open to abuse. On the other side of the coin just because you are an employee of a company should you be banned from using that product, I'm an employee of a car company and it would be a pain if I wasn't allowed to purchase the product. I'm not sure what the solution is for this. umm it wasn't seen for 1-4 years .. I am betting on closer to 4. And increasing the subscription rate will not gain any new players quickly.. So they keep it cheap. Intro a way to "legally" trade GTCs.. then expose this "exploit" as a way to raise prices throughout the game. If isk goes up.. more people will consider buying GTCs to trade. It is the same principle of devaluing a currency.. Which is where I think our economist comes in ;) Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:35:00 - [2712] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: Mint Royale Everybody knows that all the Devs are playing in BoB - and as BoB didn't exploit the Ferrogel-POS-thingy CCP didn't find out until now :P I don't think for 1 second if a player discovered an exploit and shared their findings with an EvE GM/Dev that exploit would be exploitable for very long. Especially with something as lucrative as moongate. Yes, a lot of peoople are looking for heads to roll but they have already rolled and some may still roll during the course of current investigations. Let's leave it CCP to be the judge on this. Some of us feel its a fox in the hen house .. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Mikron Alexarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.01.07 04:13:00 - [2713] <oldplayercomment> It's always fun reading the rants about exploits. "We want more game time!" "Rollback the DB!" "Compensate us for something we had nothing to do with!" This in turn leads to the people jumping into the thread defending the actions of CCP. "[Don't knock them until you've done it!]" Now, after the tears have been shed and the voices have gone hoarse, the non-trolls waltz in to mess with the freshly ****d egos and tired minds of the ranters pointing out problems either in their logic or their presentation of their logic in what can only be described as the most condescending tone ever concocted on the internet. "[You spelled this wrong]" "you're wrong! [insert fail reason here]" "No, you're wrong! [insert more fail here]" There are of course other characters that make an appearance: the actual trolls new characters putting in their .02 isk other random people All of this results in a threadnought with walls and walls of intricately designed text wrote by people that have nothing better to do than browse (and non-troll/troll) internet spaceships forums. (I'm one of the lurkers) </oldplayercomment> CCP, I know this was a screw up with starbases. It was probably never noticed because the tests don't always work the same in debug mode as release mode. I'm a software engineer by trade with an emphasis on financial applications. I fully understand that this scenario is something that could've easily slipped through the cracks of tests simply because there is no reason to think it would occur. (Though there could be other reasons) I'm going to be the guy that says, "Have faith, CCP will deliver (eventually)." I could go on and point out problems with the delivery and logical arguments provided by those infuriated by this oversight, but I'm not an 'untroll' (or a real troll for that matter) CCP, I have full confidence that everything will be sorted in due time. I've been a loyal subscriber for a number of years now, and I have yet to be genuinely disappointed with decisions made by the GMs/Devs in matters concerning exploits. Keep on rocking with this awesome game and don't listen to the people that would have your heads for this. There are those of us that truly understand your mistakes, are ok with them, and the way you try to make it up to users. I have never seen a game company more concerned with the well being of its user base. Those companies that would bow to the demands of the few (or many) knowing full well that it would destroy the game for others are not looking out for the interests of the users. Thank you for making this game that challenges me every time I log in. -Mikron http://wiki.eve-id.net/ ____________________________________________________________________]
Miney Prospector Caldari Noob Mercs	Posted - 2009.01.07 05:46:00 - [2714] This needs to be dealt with.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.07 17:59:00 - [2715] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 07/01/2009 17:59:45 Mikron, I repectfully disagree. If they missed it, the economic numbers should have caught it. There are just way to many pieces to the puzzle here for this to be missed for this long. I would offer this situation as one more reason why anyone directly involved with CCP should not be allowed to play the game in any fashion. The moto in game is "Trust no one!" right? CCP has some core members who play in corps.. it is rightly so that we should not trust them, and further more it is correct to think that they would be biased towards those corps. Can I prove anything.. no! but neither can you. Is their sufficient info for me to think something sticks? without question! and you should easily be able to see it as well.
Captain Dorja	Posted - 2009.01.07 19:40:00 - [2716] Edited by: Captain Dorja on 07/01/2009 19:40:33 Urus, the moto of the game might be trust no one, but try to keep in mind that CCP is running a business. That means they aren't going to let the devs exploit them game more than once because it will ** off subscribers. Suscribers are something that CCP is trying very hard to keep subscribing and to increase the number of new subscribers. That means they aren't going to allow real world corperate scandels of the devs in the game. It's bad for real world busines where there is real money to be made and lost, not just isk. Stop contemplating the game side issues and contemplte the real world issue: money. They want more of it. Letting devs screw up the game makes **ed of players, which makes players quit which makes decreased revenue.
Zaporozh Gallente Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.07 21:22:00 - [2717] Edited by: Zaporozh on 07/01/2009 21:22:16 From what I read thus far from other sources like Massively News the corporations in question have pretty much shut down. What big time corps have recently folded? That might be a good question to answer. {Glauxian Data Centre}
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.08 13:48:00 - [2718] Outside of the people being banned, what supprises me is that CCP has allowed the corps that were involved to stay active. Im just now getting up to speed with this whole matter and from what im reading, the corps that were involved are still viable and running. You all know that these corps that were involved fully knew and supported what was going on,...ofcourse i cant proove that but it would only stand to reason that the CEOs of said corps knew and were fully aware of what was going on, thusly indirectly these people should be held accountable and responsable for there actions. Guilt by assocation?,...no,...becasue they knew what was going on and they didnt do anyting about it. Now the question arrises,...what were they doing with all the money >isk< that was made from this exploit? ISK sellers? Possability! I bet if we were to really look at the people involved, we would find a couple snot nosed 14 year olds, jsut finding out what self gratification is all about, with a hefty paypal account at there disposal. WTF! >R< Fly safe and keep one hand on your wallet >>>and you all thought we have it bad here in the states with OBAMA!<<< as you all figured i voted for the other guy.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.08 14:34:00 - [2719] Originally by: Captain Dorja Edited by: Captain Dorja on 07/01/2009 19:40:33 Urus, the moto of the game might be trust no one, but try to keep in mind that CCP is running a business. That means they aren't going to let the devs exploit them game more than once because it will ** off subscribers. Suscribers are something that CCP is trying very hard to keep subscribing and to increase the number of new subscribers. That means they aren't going to allow real world corperate scandels of the devs in the game. It's bad for real world busines where there is real money to be made and lost, not just isk. Stop contemplating the game side issues and contemplte the real world issue: money. They want more of it. Letting devs screw up the game makes ed of players, which makes players quit which makes decreased revenue. Cap thanks for the reply, I am a business person irl.. we are all virtual business people in EvE. I do agree that CCP does not want their customers to leave in mass. And I believe they will do what they must to make sure of that. However all business, real or EvE.. is a risk reward based. Now if you follow my train of thought to its ends and aftermath, lets see who is getting the rewards here. Moon-gate has risen prices through out EvE.. I think we can all agree on this. I think we can all agree that much like real life.. In EvE there are more people with less, than there are people with more. w number of people are oblivious to this problem x number of people are going to leave EvE anyway. y number of people are going to stay no matter what a pecent of w and y will simply buy more GTCs to trade for isk. Those who hear about this in passing may think "gee CCP is really tough on cheaters" I better not buy illegal isk. What it boils down to is more GTC sales for CCP. Now if you are a business person.. would you care if a few left as long as the masses were guaranteed to buy more? are we really supposed to sit here and believe simply because they tell us it is so? While they have vested interests in corps? As long as any member of CCP is in a corp.. I will always question their responsability to their customer. Might as well let OJ sit on his own Jury. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
Jossaphene	Posted - 2009.01.08 17:01:00 - [2720] Originally by: Garnet Alf Originally by: URUS FORGE This bug/exploit (if you can call it that) is one that involves postive(i.e. mining yield) and negative (i.e. fuel consumption) numric quantities.. it HAS to be programmed in. I agree with this comment. It is well known in programming circles that you run sample information through some code to check that it is working ok. This "exploit" could stem from a simple programming test that was left in either because no one at CCP thought it would be found, or someone at CCP has used to further the aims of their own corp within the game. Are there any corps that CCP has been involved in? Pretty sure I have read that they have indeed been involved within the game as players. They do after all claim to be gamers themselves. Are there any alliances who seem to be escaping these bans? Word on the grapevine is that no one involved in a BoB corp has been banned. I don't know if that is true or not, but something smells distinctly piscean to me. Well for years there have been rumors/reports about CCP being involved with BoB. Like when BoB was about to lose thier Titan early last year and all of a sudden the node was shut down in effect saving thier boat. I believe the alliances have grown to large and controlling and need to be trimmed a bit to allow smaller corps a chance to get a foot into 0.0. Only way now is to join one of the Big 3 alliances and that is just rediculous. I say any alliances remotely associated with this exploit should be dismantled. Amazing an alliance can afford to lose 3 titans in a span of a week and not flinch at the loss. CCP needs to take this oppertunity to fix the problems that were most likely induced by their own people to help out thier corps/alliances. Game is hard enough as is without playing against the very people that can ban and take isk etc from others.

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.08 21:10:00 - [2721] o/ Jossaphene, What it all boils down to is that CCP is not telling us with absolutes what is going on. They are not solidly confirming or making any denials of any of the details. They have to know what is suspected about them. They have to know this perspective is only going to grow until they make statements that are solid and firm. They need to stop this political dance around the topic response. Just hit it hard once, expose everything with 100% transparency. And no matter what side of the fence you are on.. you can't read CCPs statements and feel they have told us enough. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Plundaar Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.08 22:28:00 - [2722] Originally by: URUS FORGE o/ Jossaphene, What it all boils down to is that CCP is not telling us with absolutes what is going on. They are not solidly confirming or making any denials of any of the details. They have to know what is suspected about them. They have to know this perspective is only going to grow until they make statements that are solid and firm. They need to stop this political dance around the topic response. Just hit it hard once, expose everything with 100% transparency. And no matter what side of the fence you are on.. you can't read CCPs statements and feel they have told us enough. I'm expecting that when they have finished pulling every scrap of data to get rid of all the accounts related to this incident. It might never happen the way they're tapdancing while avoiding saying much. This leads me to not trusting CCP right now. They still have time to change my mind. My subscription hasn't ended yet, but my renewal is not in the range of the current shared information either. As for the person who spoke of cars. A car is an item, this is a service. That changes a lot of perspective.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.09 13:24:00 - [2723] It seems to me that CCP and BoB are tightly associated, that is for sure. and to contridict one that said something about BoB not having players that ahve been baned,...they have. I have been in game now for about a year, and from almost day one all i here is about how big BoB is and there attachment to CCP. Heres the question that i would like to pose to all here,...now. The statment has been made that CCP are to the point "a bunch of gamers themselves" If this is true,...what corps do they exist in,....and what role do they play? Could it be that all this time "CCP = BoB?" ormore to the point,..."Bob = CCP?" and this is why all the hush-hush over this insodent and the involvement with Bob? The players that ahve been banned,...myself i would like to see a list of those players and the corps that they existed in and there allignces that were affected. In addition i would like to see a list of all the players that were involved in the scam, there corp and if they were booted out of game or not. CCP,...I trust that you all are doing all that you can to rectify this, resontly i have had a good experience with one of the GMs, and i would only like to say that i really dont want to bite the hand that has fed me in this case,...BUT,...you all really need to do something here, RESTORE THE TRUST THAT PEOPLE HAVE,..>or more to the point,...HAD< in the politics of this game. IF CCP was involved in this whole insodent,...admit it be done with it and go on. You all will find that people will forgive more readly than if you try to cover it up and someone find out otherwise,... S**T,....Look at Bill Clinton,....Hummer king of the U.S.A.,...he got caught with his pants down,...LITERALLY! He lied about it,...they tryed to lie tocongress about it,..but still the american people let him stay in office tofinish out his term. <---<<<go figure The point here is that He is still being busted on over that fact. <---<<<GET THE HINT! Clatu Verada Nicto Fly save and keep your britches up >R<
Vladina Krematoria	Posted - 2009.01.09 19:31:00 - [2724] So does this mean the Era of T2 blobs/hac gangs etc. is over..will fleets Eve wide become more balanced..are insta elite fleets going to pass away? LoL prolly not..
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:46:00 - [2725] Originally by: Vladina Krematoria So does this mean the Era of T2 blobs/hac gangs etc. is over..will fleets Eve wide become more balanced..are insta elite fleets going to pass away? LoL prolly not.. No it means they just cost more.. and more people will buy legal GTCs.. Players cheat.. CCP wins
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.09 22:35:00 - [2726] Can we please have the thread title changed to: "Starbase exploit (not really) addressed" ? Or "Starbase exploit pretty much forgotten about." ... "Starbase exploit shows how bad (yet again) our PR skills are" ? I dunno, but really the thread title seems like it's a fraud to me. Please, let us hear again from Dr. OhMyGod or whatever his name is. That guy really seems to have his finger on the pulse of the economy - please shove him to the forefront to answer all the CSM questions again. That was hilarious. Hung. Out. To. Dry. Nice.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.10 05:39:00 - [2727] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:41:01 Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:39:48 Maybe this is an annual CCP event like snowballs eliminate the spaces between gameset and watch http://www.gameset watch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.10 22:46:00 - [2728] Edited by: Saphirro on 10/01/2009 22:46:41 Edited by: Saphirro on 10/01/2009 22:45:59 Originally by: URUS FORGE Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:41:01 Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:39:48 Maybe this is an annual CCP event like snowballs eliminate the spaces between gameset and watch http://www.gameset watch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php http://www.gamese****ch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php Edit: Lol nice filter.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:41:00 - [2729] Originally by: Saphirro Edited by: Saphirro on 10/01/2009 22:46:41 Edited by: Saphirro on 10/01/2009 22:45:59 Originally by: URUS FORGE Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:41:01 Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:39:48 Maybe this is an annual CCP event like snowballs eliminate the spaces between gameset and watch http://www.gameset watch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php http://www.gamese**ch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php Edit: Lol nice filter. Ya maybe CCP missed the right piece of code which would have allowed that link for 1-4 years.. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
Ardalla Noos	Posted - 2009.01.11 16:25:00 - [2730] Crazy, just crazy! Does that mean there was a flood of T2 items out there? I wonder how much they will go up in price now? Wow!

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:29:00 - [2731] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 11/01/2009 18:29:07 T2 drone prices have risen 100% in and around The Forge, Lonetrek. Other items have jumped in price as well. Considering CCP says this has gone on for 1-4 years.. and most people agree it has to be 3-4 years. The impact is real and staggering. For folks playing the game for a year or so, this can be overcome. For someone who is brand new to EvE, it is going to be a much more difficult challenge. I find it rather interesting that they announced new patch coming. Certianly changes the topic
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.11 22:20:00 - [2732] Originally by: URUS FORGE I find it rather interesting that they announced new patch coming. Certianly changes the topic To be fair, that doesn't seem like a deliberate diversionary tactic - since the new expansion was announced at FanFest to be coming in March. The fact that it fits the bill for whipping up interest in the Game, along with the Atari deal and hitting 45k concurent connections is all just timely for them. Fact remains though: 19th December was the last statement announced about the exploit, and the last the playerbase has heard from both CCP and indeed the CSM. That is poor.
Rancideous	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:12:00 - [2733] CCP says: Starbase exploit? What? Ohh ya, you mean the one that has effected the entire game and everyone in it Starbase exploit? Ya, we might let players know what was going on with that months down the road when we get around to it..
Scholard	Posted - 2009.01.12 12:46:00 - [2734] Edited by: Scholard on 12/01/2009 12:54:46 I have been struggling for years trying to make a good living in EVE, but every valuable moon has been locked down by the big alliances who seem to wield unlimited wealth and power and benefits for their members. Hard to compete against them so you must either join them, or work for a meager living doing your own thing, or struggle in a smaller alliance in less desireable space mining next-to-worthless moons or ratting. That said, with Transparency comes confidence. I have few ****es about CCP, they made a great and very complex game. However, the facts of this issue need to be laid out for all to see to restore confidence in the system. The Players, Corps, Alliances, and Alts who directly benefited from this exploit should be exposed and how much ISK they made directly or indirectly off this should be laid out. Let's see a forensic accounting of the money trail and how it benefited certain alliances. The fruit of these exploits needs to be removed from the game. Additionally, given the 4 years to "discover" this, all CCP employees who play in the game should be "outed". There should be a public registry of who those characters are, and what corps they reside in, and their wallets should have public read only access. This would stop all the rumors regarding GM's being in collusion with, or benefiting specific alliances or corps. Let them play, but again, with transparency comes confidence and self-policing. CCP, you do yoursleves no service sweeping this under the rug without full disclosure. We players of EVE want nothing more than utmost confidence in knowing that CCP will do the right thing, but you are your own worst enemy in this regard. Sht happens through mishap, incompetance, understaffing, unintended consequences, "undocumented features", and/or lack of oversight. We don't blame you for it as we understand the challenges of coding and building a real-life business around a game and users who are fickle and complex, but it is how you react to these issues when they are discovered that defines you. It is time for full disclosure so we can lay this to rest and all go back to our business.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.12 13:25:00 - [2735] CCP is not going to do that,...that is give a complete and full disclosure of all this, if they do, it will completely supprise me and the rest of the EVE community for sure. I for one believe that the people that were blatent in the useage of the exploit have been caught, furthermore they have been removed from the game, as for there alts or second accounts, that is yet to be seen but,..from what i am seeing, these people have been delt with and removed from the game. CCP i believe will not act further in this respect nor will they give any explanatin or fact to the insodent. Be grateful tht we ahve been given the info that we ahve been given at this point. I for one hope that CCP DOSE give a full disclosure,....but the info that is being asked for by the players,....Its not gonna happen. >R< Fly Safe
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:42:00 - [2736] Originally by: PJRid** CCP is not going to do that,...that is give a complete and full disclosure of all this, if they do, it will completely supprise me and the rest of the EVE community for sure. I for one believe that the people that were blatent in the useage of the exploit have been caught, furthermore they have been removed from the game, as for there alts or second accounts, that is yet to be seen but,..from what i am seeing, these people have been delt with and removed from the game. CCP i believe will not act further in this respect nor will they give any explanatin or fact to the insodent. Be grateful tht we ahve been given the info that we ahve been given at this point. I for one hope that CCP DOSE give a full disclosure,....but the info that is being asked for by the players,....Its not gonna happen. >R< Fly Safe PJR, I sincerely wish to know where your confidence in CCPs handling of this situation is based? I want to know, because I desire to have that confidence. All they have said so far is that they would investigate it. That is it.. they have posted no conclusion to their investigation. We have heard about 'some' accounts no longer being heard from.. and we have 1 person who actually came forward and admitted involvement. This whole situation stinks to high heaven of last years CCP involvement with bpo's and major corps. These guys can play "what cup is the ball under?" all day long with us. Hear me out for a second.. Player gets caught Players char is banned Player has options to use alt (may or may not depending on if they banned account) or buy another character legally, just use a different credit card. My confidence in the system and the clearly apparent loop holes have yet to be satisfied. All I am asking for are the DETAILS.. I am fairly sure if you handed me $150.00-$300 of your hard earned money. You would want to know the details of how, when and why? EvE is a product, we are the customers. If this was in anyway linked to CCP as a way to drive up costs.. and sell more GTCs. Wouldn't you want to know? If this was directly linked to any of the corps CCP has players in.. wouldn't you want to know? Don't you think that CCPs emps should be banned from playing? isn't it like having the fox in the hen house? Lastly for those who think that lowsec is to locked up.. I venture to guess that If enough people get sick of it, they will fall. It just takes enough people tired of the same crap to gather together. A 1000 marauding ships through lowsec would lay waste to allot of property. Do it enough times, and their isk flow will dwindle. I do not want ccp to remove any of the big corps.. I think it is up to the players to do that. I just think players who have that goal should not have any more of an unfair advantage than exists already. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.12 19:16:00 - [2737] Well my friend,..i totally agree with you. Either you mis-read me or you mis understood me as to whati was intending to say. Ive got several issues here so follow along Ill addres sthe issue of CCP first. I DO NOT believe that CCP will give up any info more than what we have already been given for what ever reason. I dont think that CCP has the resources at hand or at there disposal to figure out jsut what happened in this whole mess. For CCP to go back into the records and logs to see who did what and what was made by whom and where it was made,....Get my drift! There is a ** load of logistics there that i don not believe that CCP has at there disposal to figure out just what has happened. The best that we all are going to have to be satisfied with is that "the persons involved have been taken care of : here are there names adn there assocated corps" Believe me,...im not speaking up for CCP,...Iv run online games on BBS systems here in the states before,...ive been hacked, and sometimes its hard to see who did what and where it come from. As to CCPs logs,...never seen them,..Im sure that they have extensive logs,..but the question is do they have the man power to go thru the logs? and do they really give a **!? I for one would only hope that they do care enuf to go thru the logs and try to figure this out,...I for one am not going to hold my breath. Second issue: GTCs I like them but! GTCs do not really get CCPs money,.... someone in game goes mining or missions or what ever to get the isk,...and buys the GTCs for more game time,..... End of story,.... I have bought GTCs before and yes at that point the money goes back to CCP bu tim not talking about people like me in this instance im talking about the ones that use isk for the GTCs,.... I for one use my PayPal to go to the EVE site and i just renew,...I get 90 days for the price of a 60 day GTC,...lots cheeper! OH and HAY CCP!,...YES,...I actually pay for my game time! Got to go,..later all Fly safe! >R<
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.12 22:25:00 - [2738] Originally by: PJRid**** Second issue: GTCs I like them but! GTCs do not really get CCPs money,.... someone in game goes mining or missions or what ever to get the isk,...and buys the GTCs for more game time,..... End of story,.... I have bought GTCs before and yes at that point the money goes back to CCP bu tim not talking about people like me in this instance im talking about the ones that use isk for the GTCs,.... Er... eh? I don't quite get what you mean, it's not like someone magics GTC's out of thin air. Someone has to have bought the GTC in the first instance of which a portion has to go to CCP, for them to sell-on for ISK. If you think that's not the case, then by all means start printing up your own... you won't get very far though.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.13 05:56:00 - [2739] I suggest you take a peak at the time code bazarr here on the forums. billions of isk is being traded for etcs/gtcs daily... which is all bought with real money. I have bought and sold plenty, all legally within the games rules. One only needs to look at gas prices at $4.00 a gallon does to ones wallet to realize that $2 a gallon gas is a godsend. This is a exactly what has happend in EvE.. every item has skyrocketed making isk (and real world dollars) worth less. fyi.. this issues is no longer front page news.. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:44:00 - [2740] I agree,...but what i am saying is that, its a bitmore "thrifty" if one would jsut go pay for the game time from teh web site. I got 6 months for like 75.00 usd,...or there abouts this past week...not bad huh but then again i got deep pockets and i can afford it. a 60 day GTC is what,....abotu 35.00? or there abouts?,....resontly i bought a fellow corp mate 90 day, thru the web site,...for about the same amount,...plus or minus a couple bucks! go figure huh,.... the 6 month that i get, if i were to pay for it PR month would be over $100.00 USD,...becausei pay for it by the 6 months,...75.00 USD,... This is what im talking about,... I dont have a problem with people mining there way into the game, piracy or what ever but it juse kind of takes from the game a bit, people trying to get the isk to get the GTC,...kind of forces the hand to pirate for the isk, this is what im talking about.

PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:51:00 - [2741] Originally by: URUS FORGE I suggest you take a peak at the time code bazarr here on the forums. billions of isk is being traded for etcs/gtcs daily... which is all bought with real money. I have bought and sold plenty, all legally within the games rules. One only needs to look at gas prices at $4.00 a gallon does to ones wallet to realize that $2 a gallon gas is a godsend. This is a exactly what has happend in EvE.. every item has skyrocketed making isk (and real world dollars) worth less. fyi.. this issues is no longer front page news.. =-=-=-=-=-=- Im in total agreement with you,..and i myself have bought GTCs for one of my corp mates in a time of need. worthless,...point of view there,... I ACTUALLY like playing EVE,...dont like getting shot at though <self proclamed carebear<<< I use to play Elete on the C=64 and the Amiga systems,..when i found Eve i about did backflips,...>50 years old and overweight< Thtats a youtube moment,.. OK gusy,...later Fly safe >R<
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.13 15:56:00 - [2742] PJR, not trying to sacrifice ya here or anything.. no aggression intended. I really like EvE allot as well do my corps employees. We are carebear with a twist.. we like a little faction war now n then. I guess I am just really disappointed in CCP and the people involved in this fiasco.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:37:00 - [2743] Same here,....carebear all the way and i admit it. BUT i do have a couple good ships that is if i need them. I started getting into EWAR this past month.its different going around with out shields or armor,..haha sorry got off topic: Admitadly though if i had the opertunity to do what these people did,..i probaby would do it too but,....i would not have been stupid about it,...stay small and not be noticed. I think where these people went wrong is that they got sloppy and to ocomfortable in therre illegal ventures, and that was there downfall, letting far too many people know what they were doing. Quesion is how did the whole fact as to what they were doing get out to CCP? I missed that part.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:54:00 - [2744] Not I.. It is my corps policy to have no involvment in such goings on. I am not all seeing.. I don't have say a crack economist team who can see all the logs and yet miss an exploit for 4 years Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:26:00 - [2745] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. Update by Customer Support: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. I see like all such things you've dropped the ball on this. It's been some time now and no further updates. Surely over a month of additional investigation has revealed more. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:21:00 - [2746] Mec.. they are just waiting for this post to die so they can lock it.. wait a little longer.. then delete it.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:43:00 - [2747] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 15/01/2009 11:44:02 Originally by: URUS FORGE I sincerely wish to know where your confidence in CCPs handling of this situation is based? I want to know, because I desire to have that confidence. While I am not PJR, I'd like to give my 2 cents, if that's okay. The confidence is from knowing that it happened at all...no other company would even tell you. At best they'd vaguely go "There were some issues with <insert whatever here>. It'll be dealt with, thank you goodnight", or simply not saying anything at all, except mention in the next patch that something was fixed. CCP is not bound to having to tell you anything, but they go above and beyond doing so anyway. Maybe not the amount of details that you personally want, but hey..they didn't say you could have it. Quote: All they have said so far is that they would investigate it. That is it.. they have posted no conclusion to their investigation. We have heard about 'some' accounts no longer being heard from.. and we have 1 person who actually came forward and admitted involvement. Sure, there is no conclusion yet and we're still waiting for it, but if you can't wait for them to be ready to release that conclusion, whatever it might be, and you're sitting at the edge of your seat bouncing up and down in frustration then I recommend playing EVE-Online instead of EVE-Forum. Believe it or not, theres plenty of people to meet and fun to be had. If that's not good enough, maybe..a new hobby? My point is that if there is to be any sort of good and well documented conclusion, it's going to take the time it takes.. This whole situation stinks to high heaven of last years CCP involvement with bpo's and major corps. These guys can play "what cup is the ball under?" all day long with us. Quote: My confidence in the system and the clearly apparent loop holes have yet to be satisfied. All systems have loop holes, and I'll wager that you're paying for systems a lot more expensive than EVE-Online which also has loop holes. Even after this, EVE will still have flaws and loop holes..it's a question about when the next one is discovered. We live in an imperfect world trying our best to make it better in whatever each of us do, and if that's not good enough for you, well..build a spaceship and settle on another planet, I don't know...something.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:45:00 - [2748] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 15/01/2009 11:46:08 Quote: All I am asking for are the DETAILS.. I am fairly sure if you handed me $150.00-$300 of your hard earned money. You would want to know the details of how, when and why? What details? Specify what you want Names? You can't possibly think anyone believes you or anyone else not directly dealing with this issue with customer information, in this sort of situation, as being competent enough to be given that kind of information..I know I don't. Pure hypothetically if I was one of the exploiters, I wouldn't want my name to be public. I'm happy as a cucumber being unharmed by some psychotic disgruntled gamer - Maybe you aren't one of them, but theres a few of them around trust me. How? Already answered..POS exploit When? Already answered, but they are still looking for earlier signs. Quote: EvE is a product, we are the customers. If this was in anyway linked to CCP as a way to drive up costs.. and sell more GTCs. Wouldn't you want to know? If you don't believe their word when they tell you it isn't, no amount of proof they provide to back that up will make you happy. Essentially you want CCP to be evil..thats your hope, and I know you'll say otherwise. Quote: If this was directly linked to any of the corps CCP has players in.. wouldn't you want to know? I'm sorry but guilty by association is a stupid concept. Guilty by crime isn't. Quote: Don't you think that CCPs emps should be banned from playing? isn't it like having the fox in the hen house? No & No
Balendin	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:05:00 - [2749] CCP, I had players in my corp reporting to you, 2 years ago about this exploit. We even invited you to look at the pos, which you did do. We thought it was an exploit, and promptly sent memos to all our pos managers making saure it was never used. You said nothing, and did nothing about it after the investigation. TWO YEARS CCP, when will we have the proof from YOU, CCP, that you are investigating and removing said exploiters from back then. TRILLIONS of isk has flowed from the northen pos's that have funded thier war efforts, kept them in control of space they had no rightful way of defending convetionally, and allowed certain players to ride rough shode over small alliances because thier "greed power" from exploited POS's gave them the firepower, SuperCapitals, and Capitals to do so. REMOVE these FLEAS from eve, shame them out and give us these dispicable player names.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:57:00 - [2750] Originally by: Balendin CCP, I had players in my corp reporting to you, 2 years ago about this exploit. We even invited you to look at the pos, which you did do. We thought it was an exploit, and promptly sent memos to all our pos managers making saure it was never used. You said nothing, and did nothing about it after the investigation. TWO YEARS CCP, when will we have the proof from YOU, CCP, that you are investigating and removing said exploiters from back then. TRILLIONS of isk has flowed from the northen pos's that have funded thier war efforts, kept them in control of space they had no rightful way of defending convetionally, and allowed certain players to ride rough shode over small alliances because thier "greed power" from exploited POS's gave them the firepower, SuperCapitals, and Capitals to do so. REMOVE these FLEAS from eve, shame them out and give us these dispicable player names. According to CCP, they haven't recieved any petition or mail about this being of the character you describe..so if they are indeed lying about that, whats your proof? I'm looking forward to reading your documentation of your claim, including that CCP did this on purpose. I mean this in the best way possible, not in a sarcastic fashion.

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:16:00 - [2751] Cadela, thank you for your post. CCP did not report this, this was reported on a 3rd party site. CCP only took action after it became a big topic by players. CCP talks about their economists and how they have all this security and insight into the game. Yet your answer implies they can't see everything.. even over a 4 yr period of time. So which is it? a) CCP is all knowing and can create a fair and balanced game, can track the economy of eve.. and police the game in a good & just manner. b) CCP can't see anything that is going on in the game. They are clueless or c) CCP knew about this all along and used it as a way to eventually drive up prices and increase sales of GTCs. This exploit is at the very fundamental levels of EvEs economy. It takes X fuel to make X moon material. If there is an inbalance in these two. Then it should be a glaring red number on a spread sheet. If this was a model or map exploit.. sure I would agree. Hard to fix, easy to miss.. But this is raw numbers. What I expect is the truth.. and no softball statements about them checking into the problem. I want a firm statement saying CCP will ban EVERY complete account and credit card involved in this. I think it is high time for CCP to remove themselves and their employees as players of the game. They need to remove all suspect of them and their direct involvement surrounding these so-called 'exploits' There seems to be a major problem announced annually.. and CCP always seems to be at the center of suspect.. and were actually caught red handed once. If CCP wants my confidence.. then they need to stop being my competitor in game. They need to make something that actually see's the +s and -s of the economy rather than b****hitting me about it.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:43:00 - [2752] Originally by: URUS FORGE Cadela, thank you for your post. CCP did not report this, this was reported on a 3rd party site. CCP only took action after it became a big topic by players. No problem, now onto your reply: Not sure what site that was..SHC? I mean I didn't know about it till it was something plastered on the Eve-O site by CCP. So are you saying CCP should be better and more paranoid forum surfers than me? I mean..why is it they should know better than me in figuring these things out? If no one reports the incident..how would they know? Originally by: URUS FORGE CCP talks about their economists and how they have all this security and insight into the game. Yet your answer implies they can't see everything.. even over a 4 yr period of time. So which is it? a) CCP is all knowing and can create a fair and balanced game, can track the economy of eve.. and police the game in a good & just manner. b) CCP can't see anything that is going on in the game. They are clueless or c) CCP knew about this all along and used it as a way to eventually drive up prices and increase sales of GTCs. There is no black and white scenario that falls into your 3 categories, and I would think it very disturbing in any place in the world for that to be true, and I think you know that too. Being able to see something, and looking for something are 2 different concepts. Just because you have access to a certain type of information doesn't mean you're looking at well formatted graphs of every single transaction, reaction, production, trade, invention, research, mining, hauling etc etc etc, going on at any given time. Your assumption is that the information is easily accessible, well layed out, and everything supplied with big red flashing alarms that go off as soon as something faulty happens. Be honest..how likely do you think that is? I don't know how things work for CCP, but to immediately assume that they're a bunch of evil greedy dudes that'll do all they can to get the last penny out of you, is just silly. "What if" is a pointless thing to say. "What if there was a coca cola in the fridge", won't magically make one appear. Originally by: URUS FORGE This exploit is at the very fundamental levels of EvEs economy. It takes X fuel to make X moon material. If there is an inbalance in these two. Then it should be a glaring red number on a spread sheet. Proof of concept of what I said earlier... Originally by: URUS FORGE If this was a model or map exploit.. sure I would agree. Hard to fix, easy to miss.. But this is raw numbers. How would you know? No seriously..I mean, how would you know if it's hard to fix and easy to miss? Seems rather bold to say if you don't know how the system works internally. Originally by: URUS FORGE What I expect is the truth.. and no softball statements about them checking into the problem. So, if thats what they're doing (looking into the problem that is)..and don't have an answer for you yet..what exactly do you want them to say? Originally by: URUS FORGE I want a firm statement saying CCP will ban EVERY complete account and credit card involved in this. Didn't they already say that? Yes they did...tons of people were banned.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 17:06:00 - [2753] Originally by: URUS FORGE I think it is high time for CCP to remove themselves and their employees as players of the game. They need to remove all suspect of them and their direct involvement surrounding these so-called 'exploits' I don't understand your reasoning behind this... Players exploit a flaw in the system making them able to cheat their way to lots of money. Players keep it, as much as possible, secret and continue to exploit the issue instead of reporting it. Players then try to blame CCP for not seeing the problem, yet that still leaves Players being the exploiters. So therefor CCP has to be the ones deliberately making these exploits happen, and such should stop playing the game...Allow me to apologize deeply in advance for having a very hard time making any sort of sense out of that. Originally by: URUS FORGE There seems to be a major problem announced annually.. and CCP always seems to be at the center of suspect.. and were actually caught red handed once. That's bending the truth a great deal. If you and the few other conspiracy-theorists want to continue to harp on the T20 incident, then I can't touch you...Your mind is made up about how the world, and CCP, works. I've talked to plenty of people like yourself good Sir, and the same pattern emerges every single time and it's a very simple concept going like this: Unless the answer states specifically in your favor that what you believe to be a conspiracy, truly is a conspiracy, then someone is covering something up and hiding away the REAL Truth. You WANT CCP to be guilty because they are the governing power of this game and they have ultimate power over all of us in this game - Anyone with that sort of power, will without fail abuse that power. You doom yourself to neverending agony, and I'm sorry clever people like you end up in that loop, but there is little I can do about it. What do I believe then? I don't know..It's perfectly okay to not know..I'm open to the idea that someone in CCP was committing foul play, but I am also open to the idea that the truth is they didn't. However currently I just don't know, and if I don't believe what CCP are telling me when they come around to that...Then I'll never be at peace, and such may just as well quit playing altogether. Luckily though for me..that isn't the case. Originally by: URUS FORGE If CCP wants my confidence.. then they need to stop being my competitor in game. They need to make something that actually see's the +s and -s of the economy rather than b****hitting me about it. If CCP wants my confidence, then they need to continue playing the game otherwise they have no grasp about whats going on in their own game and then I have better things to do then give money to a neglected game. So..now we've arrived at a crossroad. Is my confidence better to have than yours? Is your confidence better to have than mine? As for more readily available market & production data, sure..I can agree that they need to work on that, but then I also know that something like that is easier said than done.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:16:00 - [2754] Cal.. these guys are programmers. The live and breath code, math and physics. AS a former UT2 mod designer.. I do not accept that they can not see these issues. It is impossible! CCP claims they have a grasp on the economy.. either they do .. or they do not. This is hard numbers.. no soft ..kinda maybe sorta.. i dunno.. if's, and's or but's..kinda thing. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:34:00 - [2755] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 15/01/2009 18:35:57 Originally by: URUS FORGE Cal.. these guys are programmers. The live and breath code, math and physics. AS a former UT2 mod designer.. I do not accept that they can not see these issues. It is impossible! I'm a programmer too, have been for quite a few years now...None of the commercial products I've worked on making, have anything to do with economics. Being a programmer has nothing to do with knowing economy. That I know basic economy has nothing to do with my education or experience in programming, so unfortunately I'm inclined to say that your argument is quite faulty, and it is most certainly NOT impossible. The oldest commercial product that I worked on is 7 years old, and it still has bugs. Originally by: URUS FORGE CCP claims they have a grasp on the economy.. either they do .. or they do not. Please quote where CCP said "We have a grasp on the economy", at best they (the economists) have it well analyzed and study it very often. It certainly doesn't mean they know every little thing that goes on it, and most certainly not when it comes to faulty/broken code as they (the economists) have nothing to do with that...If they do, I'll be impressed..I know of no person who is an economist AND a coder AND functions as both on a commercial product in the scale that EVE is. Originally by: URUS FORGE This is hard numbers.. no soft ..kinda maybe sorta.. i dunno.. if's, and's or but's..kinda thing. EVE is built on hard numbers, but that doesn't mean you know what to look for..or if theres anything to look for in the first place. For that matter it most definitely doesn't mean those numbers are in any sort of managable form.
Wardo21	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:39:00 - [2756] On the topic of "they should have known", there was a post a few back that stated "X fuel makes Z resources, when it wasn't balanced there should have been a red number on a spreadsheet." Ok, total fuel usage for all running POS for some time period is likely to be tracked. Total output from reactions is likely to be tracked as well. The problem comes when using this particular comparison, that there are any number of POS that aren't being used for reactions. A better metric (if it's collected) would be the input materials ==> output materials should not exceed the normal ratios for that reaction. That brings in tracking the specific reaction, since some input materials are used in multiple output materials. Without access to the audit system, or the code itself, we have no way of knowing just what was tracked. If you assume that there isn't a bug in the system that provides for "free" reactions, you might code the system to only record the end result, and not the inputs. It makes for a smaller dataset in the audit trail. Storing "reaction Z completed on this date at POS D" is much smaller than "N input1 and M input2 produced Q output1 on this date in reaction Z at POS D", because the inputs and outputs should always be the same for every reaction Z. That's called avoiding redundant data, and is considered good practice in database management. Knowing how much input stuff existed at the start of the timeframe in inventory, how much was collected, how many runs were done that should have used that stuff, and how many units are lost to container destruction/etc., should get you to balance with the number of units in inventory at the end. Provided of course you're tracking all these transactions somewhere to do the accounting. Rinse and repeat for every single reaction/production/destruction/refining/whatever process that's in game. Now you're no longer looking at a simple task, and the offhanded "you should have known" converts to "you should have found the one off-color grain of sand on the beach". (Needle in a haystack pales in comparison.)
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:51:00 - [2757] Cal.. lets keep it simple. CCP says they have an economist team. How can an economist be effective if he can't see the numbers? What is the point of saying you have an economist.. if they can't see them? So logic would dictate that a) CCP is full of crap and this whole economist business is BS and they can't see anything b) They can track the economy.. and give the economist numbers to work with. The exploit involves the very foundation of the EvE economy.. it is as fundamental as trit! PS.. it was me who posted X fuel produces Y material ..
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:10:00 - [2758] Originally by: URUS FORGE Cal.. lets keep it simple. Changing the wording won't invalidate what I already said. Originally by: URUS FORGE CCP says they have an economist team. How can an economist be effective if he can't see the numbers? You're bending the facts again..They can see the numbers, but not necessarily the ones relevant to this exploit, which would be perfectly natural, as the actual input is irrelevant to the output. I suggest reading the post just below my last post where a gentleman very accurately described why wouldn't have those numbers to begin with. Originally by: URUS FORGE What is the point of saying you have an economist.. if they can't see them? "Them" is a very vague term and again the premise is to know you're looking for faulty production, the numbers related to that production, the related data to that and to have those numbers in a managable form which again is very unnatural and very very unlikely. You can not just say "the numbers"..what numbers? Do you realize how many numbers there are to begin with? You are still deluded into the thinking that all this comes in a managable form, or in any form at all, as most of it is irrelevant to analyzing the actual market. Originally by: URUS FORGE So logic would dictate that a) CCP is full of crap and this whole economist business is BS and they can't see anything b) They can track the economy.. and give the economist numbers to work with. Logic dictates no such thing..you can't just put it up like that, it's just not that simple. Originally by: URUS FORGE The exploit involves the very foundation of the EvE economy.. it is as fundamental as trit! PS.. it was me who posted X fuel produces Y material .. 1st The exploit is based POS reactions, not market transactions - 2 different things. One is has to do with the market, another one has to do with production, I'll let you figure out which one is which. If you can't..heres a big hint: Does the market produce ferrogel? No, POS'es do. 2nd Even IF the exploit was based in the market and you were comparing the materials available on the market for these reactions, you'd still have to be looking for this sort of thing in the first place, which you can't unless you know theres a problem, which you don't. 3rd You are STILL going by the assumption that the data available encompasses the things you describe, in the way you describe, in the form you describe, which is about as likely as you telling me what serialnumber my 3rd harddrive has.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:55:00 - [2759] Ok simple again..If I follow what you are saying the question begs to be asked. How valid is CCPs economic opinion, when it is only based on part of the economic picture? Any economy is based on raw material availability, manufacturing productivity, sales inventory, profit margins, etc.. If I follow your logic, again I am left with the simple fact that CCP doesn't really know anything about the eve economy ..and that decisions to add say an ORCA..have no economic foundation. After all as you would have it.. they can't see the whole picture. Or if you believe as I do..CCP is smart. They have all of this data available. I am giving CCP credit here if you think about it. I believe they have the data, I believe they have an economist who reads the data. I also believe that CCP is a buisiness and would use that economic data to CCPs own personal gains. It is a very smart business move.. however unethical. CCP needs to exit as gamers for any confidence to grow. The moto of EvE is "Trust no one!" well CCP plays the game.. I don't trust them.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 21:12:00 - [2760] Originally by: URUS FORGE Ok simple again..If I follow what you are saying the question begs to be asked. How valid is CCPs economic opinion, when it is only based on part of the economic picture? Any economy is based on raw material availability, manufacturing productivity, sales inventory, profit margins, etc.. I'm not an economist, I don't know what they need to make an economic analysis and/or evaluation, you'd have to ask them about that. However you still need to know to look in the first place to detect something like that, and you are still assuming they have that specific data about that particular reaction, by those particular people and that particular POS, in the particular places..and you are also still assuming something that unnaturally specific is presented in managable form where faulty coding shows up as big red flashing numbers with an alarm going off. I've pointed this out 4 or 5 times now and you ignore it..if you want to ask your questions, first deal with explaining in detail how CCP's system work and how their data is processed. Originally by: URUS FORGE If I follow your logic, again I am left with the simple fact that CCP doesn't really know anything about the eve economy ..and that decisions to add say an ORCA..have no economic foundation. After all as you would have it.. they can't see the whole picture. It most certainly does not leave you with anything of the sort..you're pulling that reasoning out of thin air without explaining why and how. Read that post about redundant data..carefully. Originally by: URUS FORGE Or if you believe as I do..CCP is smart. They have all of this data available. I am giving CCP credit here if you think about it. I believe they have the data, I believe they have an economist who reads the data. I believe CCP is smart, and I do believe they have all the data available and I have said nothing to the contrary, and yes they have an economist who reads the data. Of course..but that doesn't prove anything other than what the statement in itself says. Originally by: URUS FORGE I also believe that CCP is a buisiness and would use that economic data to CCPs own personal gains. It is a very smart business move.. however unethical. There is nothing smart about that, at all..I don't know where you have your reasoning from, but that there is plain stupid. Also: Originally by: GM Grimmi 5. We have done a thorough investigation on our staff members and CSM members and found no links to this exploit. So there you go... Originally by: URUS FORGE CCP needs to exit as gamers for any confidence to grow. The moto of EvE is "Trust no one!" well CCP plays the game.. I don't trust them. CCP needs to continue to play EVE as regular gamers alongside everyone else for any confidence to grow, otherwise the game will stagnate and fall into neglect. As far as the "trust no one"..no one said you have to trust a CCP employee if you come across one of their player personas ingame, I wouldn't either..they're probably just as likely to try and gank me as the next person is, and thats how it should be.

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:08:00 - [2761] You are correct, you don't have any economic insight..If you did, you would know and understand exactly what I am saying. I do know about the economy.. real and eve.. I work for a manufacturer who produces goods sold around the world. I am a manufacturer in EvE as well as in real life.. I produce ships, modules and buy and sell on the market. I know what it takes to make items and sell them. Eve has a base of raw materials. A base of components required to make larger components. And then larger player usable items made sometimes from raw material and other times from those components made from raw material. You are asking me to trust the fox in the hen house. And that is something no logical person can do. These numbers are cut and dry. If you input x to output y and there is giant gap between something smells. This is a virtual enron we are talking about. This is 4 years, I do not believe CCP is so dumb as to miss this for that long. As someone who deals in numbers and dollars in the hundreds of millions. I just don't buy it. CCP is a business, if you don't think they would do something to help increase their sales figures. You are just being naive. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:44:00 - [2762] Originally by: URUS FORGE You are correct, you don't have any economic insight..If you did, you would know and understand exactly what I am saying. I do know about the economy.. real and eve.. I work for a manufacturer who produces goods sold around the world. I am a manufacturer in EvE as well as in real life.. I produce ships, modules and buy and sell on the market. I know what it takes to make items and sell them. Eve has a base of raw materials. A base of components required to make larger components. And then larger player usable items made sometimes from raw material and other times from those components made from raw material. You are asking me to trust the fox in the hen house. And that is something no logical person can do. These numbers are cut and dry. If you input x to output y and there is giant gap between something smells. This is a virtual enron we are talking about. This is 4 years, I do not believe CCP is so dumb as to miss this for that long. As someone who deals in numbers and dollars in the hundreds of millions. I just don't buy it. CCP is a business, if you don't think they would do something to help increase their sales figures. You are just being naive. So this is it is it...your last argument. This is the best you can do...Say I dont understand economics. This is your basis for all you're saying in all your posts..that I don't understand economics. Look good Sir, I said I'm not an economist.. I'm a programmer, nor do I know how CCP's economist does his work, what data is available to him and how it is available to him nor do I know what he/they use to analyse the market, nor do you. Do I understand economics? Yes I do, you don't need to be an economist to be able to. You fail again, again, again, again, again and yet again to be realistic, account for all the variables, the differences between reaction, production, transactions, trades and the system they are all in, and how that data is processed. You just don't have a foot to stand on, and the best you can come up with..is saying I don't understand economics, coming from what you started with .. I would normally be surprised, but you're just another one of those people who want things to be bad..for CCP to be the villain. There is no fox in the hen house..and it certainly has nothing to do with logic. I mean where are you getting these analogies?? If the hen house is EVE or even the EVE Market, then the fox built the bloody thing to begin with..wha...you..this...look this is needlessly absurd. "These numbers" the hell do you mean "these numbers"..WHAT numbers??, you're pulling these "numbers" out of thin air. "If you input x to output y" - I ask for the 6th of 7th time that you please explain how CCP processes data in EVE..You can't just slap a vague silly example onto it without knowing how it works to begin with. You are assuming again that you can see that sort of thing to begin with in an easy way. Originally by: URUS FORGE This is 4 years, I do not believe CCP is so dumb as to miss this for that long. You really can't read can you, or you just don't get it...EVE is FULL of errors, loopholes and faulty code just like ANY system is. There is currently plenty more loopholes in EVE, it's just a matter of time before the next one is discovered. If you're going to harp on the idea that I don't understand economics, then I say it's a good thing this exploit was a coding problem, and since I'm a programmer I will further add that it's *YOU* who has no idea what you're dealing with. I really didn't want to say that, but if this is a battle of "whos more professionally qualified to talk about the POS exploit", I have you beat by far. Last but not least..of course CCP does things to increase it's sales figures, every company in the world does. If you think that equates to something like the POS exploit, you're being stupid, cause the POS exploit did nothing of the sort.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:56:00 - [2763] I was simply agreeing with you on your lack of understanding the basics of economics. CCP has an economists: Yes Definition of economist: Someone who studies the underlying economic factors and trends. In a real world the outcome that information could be used to slow it down, speed it up..etc..etc. EvEs most basic economic materials: Isk, Minerals, Ice, Blueprints and of course the players themselves who build, mine and sell. This so-called "exploit" involved moon goo.. I think we can agree on that. You claim you understand a POS.. so you may know what a years worth of moon mining can produce if you had it fueled 365 days and someone was there maintaining it all the time. These are the basic economic numbers I am talking about The Fuel is the input The MMs are the output Now it is the economists responsability to know how much raw material exists in the game as to predict an outcome of fast, slow, neutral economy.. and provide possible advice on how to structure certian items as to keep the wheels turning so to speak. Without these basic numbers.. well any thing you come up with as an economist is basically a crock! So now imagine for a moment this 'exploit' in practice.. billions of materials produced by "several" pos's and sold or used for whatever. We are talking massive quantities flowing for free. No suddenly it drys up.. and just like a real world economy. It responds by raising the prices of every item that was produced by the specific materials in question. Jita was wiped out in a day of all existing inventory and then the prices skyrocketed. If you were someone who traded GTCs.. the isk you get for 1 GTC can't buy as much. Which means you might buy a 2nd .. Now who would you say sees the most benefit from prices being driven up and more GTC sales? hmm gee is it you? nooo me? nooo CCP? ding ding ding ding I understand that there are coding problems with any game.. Here is the game I worked on in 2004. http://www.moddb.com/mods/heavy-gear-forever CCP touts these things around pretty strong.. the "crack" economist.. there amazing dev team.. Well this aint so amazing. So I have to believe now That CCPs coders and economist missed this for 4 years.. I am also lead to believe that no one reported this in 4 years... when about a half dozen people in this thread have claimed to have reported it repeatedly. Sorry I don't buy it.. it's like driving a car for 4 years and not noticing that it had a flat tire all that time. I just can not believe there is no involvement from CCP on this one. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.16 08:58:00 - [2764] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 16/01/2009 09:03:42 Originally by: URUS FORGE Sorry I don't buy it.. it's like driving a car for 4 years and not noticing that it had a flat tire all that time. I just can not believe there is no involvement from CCP on this one. Then no amount of information, argument or reasoning can convince you otherwise..you don't care about the variables the proves you wrong, you don't care about data format, you don't care how coding works, you don't care about all the things that have to happen for this sort of thing to even have a slight chance of detection, you don't care about how things work in reality..you only care about how things work according to your head, and such I'm done with this conversation. Goodday Sir
Rutger Centemus Joint Empire Squad	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:01:00 - [2765] Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: URUS FORGE Cadela, thank you for your post. CCP did not report this, this was reported on a 3rd party site. CCP only took action after it became a big topic by players. No problem, now onto your reply: Not sure what site that was..SHC? I mean I didn't know about it till it was something plastered on the Eve-O site by CCP. So are you saying CCP should be better and more paranoid forum surfers than me? I mean..why is it they should know better than me in figuring these things out? If no one reports the incident..how would they know? Not sure what you mean by "CCP only took action after it became a big topic by players". From information currently available, The Kugu-thread came after the thread on SHC, which is predated by a thread on the German Eve-O - site. These threads are all after the banning of (some of the) accounts involved in the exploit.
Cadela Fria Amarr x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:11:00 - [2766] Originally by: Rutger Centemus Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: URUS FORGE Cadela, thank you for your post. CCP did not report this, this was reported on a 3rd party site. CCP only took action after it became a big topic by players. No problem, now onto your reply: Not sure what site that was..SHC? I mean I didn't know about it till it was something plastered on the Eve-O site by CCP. So are you saying CCP should be better and more paranoid forum surfers than me? I mean..why is it they should know better than me in figuring these things out? If no one reports the incident..how would they know? Not sure what you mean by "CCP only took action after it became a big topic by players". From information currently available, The Kugu-thread came after the thread on SHC, which is predated by a thread on the German Eve-O - site. These threads are all after the banning of (some of the) accounts involved in the exploit. Ah, sorry my mistake then..I don't honestly know how the information came about. Like I said earlier, I first learned about it when it was plastered on the EVE-O site by CCP. Mr. Urus Forge is the one you have to ask for clarification on whatever it was he said. The point was that they can't just know out of thin air without it being reported somehow.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:30:00 - [2767] Just a quick question for yo all,.... have any of you seen any prices with in the market that have fallen or risen majorly scence the exploit has been found and CCP did there thing? Im just wondering,...I realy havent seen much of a rise/drop in prices in mods/fittings/ships. Im not sure if the availablility has changed any but then i really havent taken notice to that but then i am close to the oursoulart area and i ususally go there if i need anything that i cant find local. Scence the bust sofar i have put together two ships and except for the normal rise/fall of th emarket,..i really havent seen much of a flux in the market. >>>Just staying active in the discussion<<< >R< Peace to you all,..-10 degrees this morning at 4 am in morgantown west virginia!,... later
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:12:00 - [2768] yep nothing smells here.. now that what 8 posts where deleted? Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Lone Gunman	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:37:00 - [2769] Originally by: PJRid**** Just a quick question for yo all,.... have any of you seen any prices with in the market that have fallen or risen majorly scence the exploit has been found and CCP did there thing? Im just wondering,...I realy havent seen much of a rise/drop in prices in mods/fittings/ships. Im not sure if the availablility has changed any but then i really havent taken notice to that but then i am close to the oursoulart area and i ususally go there if i need anything that i cant find local. Scence the bust sofar i have put together two ships and except for the normal rise/fall of th emarket,..i really havent seen much of a flux in the market. >>>Just staying active in the discussion<<< >R< Peace to you all,..-10 degrees this morning at 4 am in morgantown west virginia!,... later Are you kidding, Dysprosium the base component for Ferrogel the most exploited Advanced material was already on the rise when the ban hammer hit and has now doubled since November. The Advanced materials Fermonic Condensates , Ferrogel and Hypersynaptic Fibers which require Dysprosium have now doubled since the exploit was announced. It now cost 63% more to build Tech 2 Cruisers than it did this time last month. The ship producers are not making as much profit as they were before that is why you as not seeing much of a rise in prices although they have gone up an average of about 15 to 20 percent. Alchemy has been a complete and utter failure as predicted. I am in Los Angeles California and today it will get up to 80 Deg F, 27 C. I think I will go to the beach.
Billy Blanco	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:50:00 - [2770] Edited by: Billy Blanco on 16/01/2009 18:50:49 Dunno about you but I'm waiting for the POS exploit drama bomb about to hit **********'s forum. Edit - Wtf! that forum's name is filtered?

Lone Gunman	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:06:00 - [2771] HA! Using the "K" word on these forums will get you banned for life. Besides they has been talking about it for weeks.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:42:00 - [2772] and Lone Gunman.. as someone who is obviously well informed on what it takes to manufacture.. Would you agree that people will buy/trade more GTCs now that prices are up?
Lone Gunman	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:17:00 - [2773] Edited by: Lone Gunman on 16/01/2009 22:17:50 Yes, as ISK prices for GTCÆs rise there will be more people willing to convert disposable income for GTCÆs and trade for ISK. But because of the economy there will be a lot less people making GTCÆs available for trade than there are people who are able to come up with the 700m ISK for a 60 day time card and therefore feel they can play for ôfreeö. So as things stand now I can only see prices getting higher. Especially if the player base continues to grow and the economy continues to languish as they appears to be doing.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:43:00 - [2774] Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 17/01/2009 01:43:12 Well, a second alliance has been exposed: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=975191 -----------
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 06:13:00 - [2775] Hmm drugs too eh? not surprised.. I am betting this goes deeper than even this. Lone.. I think GTC sales will increase.. and my theory is that was the intended outcome. Create the expliot..flood the market.. then crush it, creating a huge need for what was once plentiful. In either event .. it seems those who play within the rules.. get the short end of the stick.
Mecinea Lua	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:41:00 - [2776] Originally by: PJRid**** Just a quick question for yo all,.... have any of you seen any prices with in the market that have fallen or risen majorly scence the exploit has been found and CCP did there thing? Im just wondering,...I realy havent seen much of a rise/drop in prices in mods/fittings/ships. Im not sure if the availablility has changed any but then i really havent taken notice to that but then i am close to the oursoulart area and i ususally go there if i need anything that i cant find local. Scence the bust sofar i have put together two ships and except for the normal rise/fall of th emarket,..i really havent seen much of a flux in the market. >>>Just staying active in the discussion<<< >R< Peace to you all,..-10 degrees this morning at 4 am in morgantown west virginia!,... later It has not really yet been long enough probably to have the market work itself out.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:44:00 - [2777] Originally by: Lone Gunman Originally by: PJRid**** Just a quick question for yo all,.... have any of you seen any prices with in the market that have fallen or risen majorly scence the exploit has been found and CCP did there thing? Im just wondering,...I realy havent seen much of a rise/drop in prices in mods/fittings/ships. Im not sure if the availablility has changed any but then i really havent taken notice to that but then i am close to the oursoulart area and i ususally go there if i need anything that i cant find local. Scence the bust sofar i have put together two ships and except for the normal rise/fall of th emarket,..i really havent seen much of a flux in the market. >>>Just staying active in the discussion<<< >R< Peace to you all,..-10 degrees this morning at 4 am in morgantown west virginia!,... later Are you kidding, Dysprosium the base component for Ferrogel the most exploited Advanced material was already on the rise when the ban hammer hit and has now doubled since November. The Advanced materials Fermonic Condensates , Ferrogel and Hypersynaptic Fibers which require Dysprosium have now doubled since the exploit was announced. It now cost 63% more to build Tech 2 Cruisers than it did this time last month. The ship producers are not making as much profit as they were before that is why you as not seeing much of a rise in prices although they have gone up an average of about 15 to 20 percent. Alchemy has been a complete and utter failure as predicted. I am in Los Angeles California and today it will get up to 80 Deg F, 27 C. I think I will go to the beach. I figured up the cost to build a Purifier at present costs using a 9 run invented BPC. Let's just say its not pretty. At present cost just material cost is just below 3 times the cost that you can find them on the market. Now some had the old materials stockpiled, those who had bought it from the market and not been banned or had it removed. Once those materials run out, the cost of any t2 ship will rise again towards what they once were. How much they'll rise will depend on how many BPOs were lost in the bannings. It may affect some models more heavilty than others. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 14:11:00 - [2778] Check this admitted participant..who explaines the exploit further down. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 Trying to find it, but I found another person who is band..basically saying he saw POSs owned by some of the largest corps/alliances.. pretty much doing the same thing. I will post it when I find it again..
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:44:00 - [2779] People claiming one major corp having the exact starbase setup required to achieve this exploit. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053
Rutger Centemus Joint Empire Squad	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:57:00 - [2780] Originally by: URUS FORGE People claiming one major corp having the exact starbase setup required to achieve this exploit. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 Some people can be thick, but you, dear sir, take the cake... Also: l2link?

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 21:24:00 - [2781] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 17/01/2009 21:26:34 So it is now thick to post a link with possibly relevant information? If you knew me better, you would know.. that I don't want what I am finding to be true. I would rather find that other corps big & small play within the rules with minor exceptions. When one looks at low/nosec.. the common concensus is that not much goes on there without the monster corps and alliances knowing about it. I would say that thick.. * Is believing that CCP misses anything for 4 years. * That an economist would miss an exploit involving the fundamental pieces which make up the EvE economy. * That the largest corps/alliances were completely unaware of this considering the odd nature of this POS set up. So either CCP, Their economists, and the major corp alliances are either incompetents for missing this or They are super genius for being able to keep it quiet this long. Barring any new information.. I'd say masterful piece of work! No matter what side of the fence you fall on.. a poster on any EvE forum has as much if not more credability than CCPs statements.
Mikhalio KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:20:00 - [2782] Just posting to say the Pos exploit, for an economist was impossible to predict in much the same way subprime bubbled along totally undetected in federal data reports.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.18 02:31:00 - [2783] ok you say that.. but please go into detail. Because per CCP in the interview about this exploit.. they on one hand claim to be able to see imbalances.. but saaaay that with the billions traded it was hard to see at 1st. CCP says this is "like" a dupe exploit.. Now I can buy that "at 1st" they might miss this .. but this is 4 years.. and multi trillions. Cause to me an economists of any worth would be looking at these specific interchanges regularly to make assesments as to how certian economic sectors might be to hot or to cold. So the only way you could be correct is if the economist never looked at the balance of moon mining consumption and production in the last 3 years. The imbalance being the obvious lack of fuel used vs material produced.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:08:00 - [2784] It seems to me that the expolit did nthing but keep the proces down for people. With the people that were using the exploit however it tended to flood the market with goods and kept the prices on an over all down. Im not old enuf >in game< to realy get into manufacturing, at present im jsut able to hold my head above water as it is financially. If ican get out to run some missions with out getting shot at bo other players sometimes is a miracle,...but thats eve isnt it! I spose that manufacturing is a different story all together. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 7:06 AM Sunday morning and 33 degrees in morgantown WVA. I live in an old mining company house out back of town,...renovated and kind of nice,...had frozen water pipes yesterday,...but alls good now Fly safe >R<
Darth Shenron	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:10:00 - [2785] Originally by: Lone Gunman Originally by: PJRid**** Just a quick question for yo all,.... have any of you seen any prices with in the market that have fallen or risen majorly scence the exploit has been found and CCP did there thing? Im just wondering,...I realy havent seen much of a rise/drop in prices in mods/fittings/ships. Im not sure if the availablility has changed any but then i really havent taken notice to that but then i am close to the oursoulart area and i ususally go there if i need anything that i cant find local Scence the bust sofar i have put together two ships and except for the normal rise/fall of th emarket,..i really havent seen much of a flux in the market. >>>Just staying active in the discussion<<< >R< Peace to you all,..-10 degrees this morning at 4 am in morgantown west virginia!,... later Are you kidding, Dysprosium the base component for Ferrogel the most exploited Advanced material was already on the rise when the ban hammer hit and has now doubled since November. The Advanced materials Fermonic Condensates , Ferrogel and Hypersynaptic Fibers which require Dysprosium have now doubled since the exploit was announced. It now cost 63% more to build Tech 2 Cruisers than it did this time last month. The ship producers are not making as much profit as they were before that is why you as not seeing much of a rise in prices although they have gone up an average of about 15 to 20 percent. Alchemy has been a complete and utter failure as predicted. ------------------------------------------------------------ Not supprising really, should have based it on normal minerals. thus raising there prices,( That would please the miners). A mix of 3 minerals to make product A 3 other minerals to make product B, A +B = Tech II componant ( keep the pew pew brigade happy). job done I'm in england. Wheres my umbrella
Droog 1	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:41:00 - [2786] Edited by: Droog 1 on 18/01/2009 12:41:29 Originally by: URUS FORGE No matter what side of the fence you fall on.. a poster on any EvE forum has as much if not more credability than CCPs statements. No they don't. YOU choose to believe someone who was banned for exploiting and not CCP. That's your problem not CCPs. To me you are the only poster with low credibility. It's your choice to think that this has been going on for 4 years and it's your choice to believe something you read on the internet as gospel. It's your choice to believe that this is a CCP conspiracy to sell more GTCs. You can believe whatever you want but don't expect others to subscribe to your brand of paranoia, lies, and half baked assumptions. You can speculate all you want and come up with all sorts of scenarios in your mind until CCP give us more details and then we can all point a finger at you and laugh and tell you that you were wrong. Unfortunately, because you have already proved that you hold cheaters and exploiters in higher reverance than CCP you will not be satisfied with anything CCP says and will continue to pay CCP to play their game while believing the company to be corrupt.
Rutger Centemus Joint Empire Squad	Posted - 2009.01.18 13:58:00 - [2787] Edited by: Rutger Centemus on 18/01/2009 13:59:13 Originally by: URUS FORGE So it is now thick to post a link with possibly relevant information? If you knew me better, you would know.. that I don't want what I am finding to be true. URUS, I think Droog1 much more aptly worded most of my opinions and concerns. FWIW: that thread was one of the more obvious flamebaits on the matter. A member of Goonswarm and some other people (hostile to BoB or alts) posting they saw 'something' with POS' in BOB's territory. You / your character might have been around for some years. You might be a 38-year old handling 'hundreds of millions in real life'. If you can't see a post such as that for what it is, I'm happy that you're certainly no employee of mine. Extrapolating the expected value over the (possible) 4 year - period that it was around? Check some old info on prices, quantities and production-bottlenecks from before invention. As an older character into production you would probably know that the major bottleneck for t2 prior to invention wasn't the moonmaterials, but the amount of BPO's in production. The "the economist didn't see it !!11eleven" - remark? Yeah, if you know what to look for, it's easy to find things out. Sometimes, information-overload can be much more complicating or even damaging as having not enough info. I'm not 100% sure what the Doc's tasks with CCP are, but if a system isn't set-up for tracking each and every single change in a DB, especially one as broad and deep as Eve, it will be very hard to find out what's going on. Especially for someone that's for whatever reason already running late on several of his 'quarterly' reports. Again - if that even were his, or anyone elses task - not sure on that. By the by, a small tip when linking to other URL's (other posts / threads / sites etc.): click the 'link' button (5th from the link) first, and copy the link into there, after which you can name the link. Just copy-pasting the URL directly into a post won't give a working link. Have fun, knock yourself out. Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.18 15:37:00 - [2788] Originally by: Mikhalio Just posting to say the Pos exploit, for an economist was impossible to predict in much the same way subprime bubbled along totally undetected in federal data reports. Since there were many respectable people warning for exactly this credit-crises based on fantasy prices for houses and that they warned about exactly that scenario which we now experience - do you mean that the pos exploit should have been discovered by ccp on their own and much earlier? If not for the whistleblower I wonder how long the exploit would have been gone undetected. Anyway ... any news from the investigation?
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.18 19:25:00 - [2789] I have not chosen to believe anyone.. I have chosen to try and find out what has happend. I would say that I have pointed out what is 'most likely' based on the information at hand. It could be a x major corp pointing fingers at y corp and y corp denying it.. I can only go by all the pieces of the puzzle. Putting one in.. taking one out.. and seeing what is most likely. All of the major corps have had their hands caught in the cookie jar at some point. So again.. I am left with 'who do I believe?' I do not believe CCP anymore than I believe a poster on a forum.. maybe that didn't come across in the wording as well as it should have. My meaning simply was that CCPs cred is absolutely at question here. And if you look at the pieces I have found.. and you believe CCP to be intelligent people.. then it is very hard to think they missed this for 4 years. I think we both know it would take at least 3 years to have the skills to hold a POS in low/nosec. The pieces of what I have posted.. could just as easily be the truth as what ccp has told us.. which is far to little in my opinion. I will hold my ground on a few points.. as long as CCP is playing this game vs. its own customers I will not trust them! It is an unfair advantage to have a member of CCP in anyones corp. I will not budge from that belief. I will also hold my ground on the economists missing this problem. MM is a fundamental part of builing T2 in EvE. We are talking about something as basic as trit here. I will give missing it for a short time.. but much beyond 2yrs of missing this? I will go back to the 2 options.. a)involved in exploit or b)not qualified for the job This guy should have had spreadsheet after spreadsheet of fuel consumption vs production. I will give that there is much conspiracy here and little fact.. but CCP has forced players to find their own answers. So we have to choose what to believe!
Kel'Tor	Posted - 2009.01.19 20:05:00 - [2790] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. ...unfair? I have read a post of a banned dude stating his alliance made 3000 billions in 4years, calculated that is 2bills/day. Considering I make 200mills at most per day....10 times my income in 4years is not unfair ... I feel now like I lived in a swamp while others were affording titans and were building outposts.... In my point of view there is a limit where fairness ends and obliteration begins... While I do not regret the advantage the exploiters had until now over everyone else, I do wonder what you will be finding out in about 4years from now? Maybe I speak only for myself, but fairness is 90% of the gameplay...why should we pay and play when others cheat, don't pay and play. Not that life is fair in any way but let the eve dream be!

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.20 05:23:00 - [2791] Pretty sure that anyone who didn't benefit from this exploit feels that way. CCP and CSM is about to post new info soon. I am hoping that my confidence can be restored to a degree. Unfortunately EvE is a closed loop economy. They would have to remove billions and billions to reverse the effect. Odds are anything T2 you own has a piece of that evil in it. There are ways they could balance it out.. but odds are they will only post what they can and hope it dies.
Azure Dreams	Posted - 2009.01.20 13:20:00 - [2792] Originally by: Kel'Tor Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. ...unfair? I have read a post of a banned dude stating his alliance made 3000 billions in 4years, calculated that is 2bills/day. Considering I make 200mills at most per day....10 times my income in 4years is not unfair...! As has been suggested in that post I suspect that this person who said 4 years was playing the market game, stockpiling the resources and then watching others go on a buying frenzy. From what I see there were only signs of this exploit being used since the latest expansion. That's not to say it hasn't been going on 4 years but as with most things people like to believe the worst case scenario...
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.20 14:41:00 - [2793] Even if it is half the worst case scenario.. it is still a worst case situation.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.20 18:18:00 - [2794] Assuming that the people that were banned were playing second accounts or if they were stupid about it,.."ALTS" on the same account, Im jsut wondering jsut how many people that were banned are back in game? >R< Fly safe and dont screw arround on your main account =-=-=-=-=- Morgantown West virgina weather today: C-C-C-Cold and snowie,....frozen water pipes over the weekend but i got them all taken care of. 4 degrees this morning at 5 am.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.22 11:21:00 - [2795] Originally by: PJRid**** Assuming that the people that were banned were playing second accounts or if they were stupid about it,.."ALTS" on the same account, Im jsut wondering jsut how many people that were banned are back in game? >R< Fly safe and dont screw arround on your main account =-=-=-=-=- Morgantown West virgina weather today: C-C-C-Cold and snowie,....frozen water pipes over the weekend but i got them all taken care of. 4 degrees this morning at 5 am. From some reports they banned accounts that they could link to the offending account as well, such as same credit card and also possibly same ISPN or computer if their system logs that. According to the recent footnotes by OZ this issue came up again at the CSM meeting. From what I gathered there is another blog coming about it that exposes far more information than we've had to date, including numbers going back the entire time of the exploit. Currently the CSMs are not allowed to reveal the numbers or details.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.23 01:06:00 - [2796] Would it really be that hard for CCP to have released a short piece of information or even post in the thread that more info was coming soon? Leaving it to the CSM to feed it back is pretty poor. Seriously, their PR is appalling.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.23 12:31:00 - [2797] Not really, ever see how the biger governments do things, they stay quiet till they know whats going on for an absolute fact. THEN they give there report,.. Sometimes the silence is better than false reports. With the false reports or "Inacurate reports" spawns even more discontent. Right now all we have is here-say and discord to the same. I actually do have some degree of confidence in CCP to get to the bottom of all this, jsut keep it real and keep the faith,...It will all come out in the wash.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:15:00 - [2798] They don't have PR.. they have marketing! Distinctly different. Silence simply gives time for everyone to pick a side. Do ya think they were in on it? or do you think they are morons for missing it? or are you someone who blindly trusts CCP without question and sees absolutely nothing wrong with how it is being handled? Are you going be the person who tells people to "leave" if they don't like it? Only a few options.. In either event, let is hope CCPs information is a bit more defined and has less loopholes than the 1st go round.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.23 21:00:00 - [2799] Originally by: PJRid**** Not really, ever see how the biger governments do things, they stay quiet till they know whats going on for an absolute fact. THEN they give there report,.. Sometimes the silence is better than false reports. With the false reports or "Inacurate reports" spawns even more discontent. Right now all we have is here-say and discord to the same. I actually do have some degree of confidence in CCP to get to the bottom of all this, jsut keep it real and keep the faith,...It will all come out in the wash. Governments may not actually refute or confirm points in question, however they rarely sit silent. What they tend to do is issue some form of public statement, even if it pretty much says nothing, with an indication as to further information being released upon investigation. Then you usually get the "So and so of so and so position will making a further press release at such and such time." A government that simply sits in silence would be commiting political suicide and opening itself to allegations of something to hide. If we had a shadow CCP that could publicly question CCP regarding their statements and findings, that would be nice. By the way, what does keep it real actual mean in this context? How? ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
Krefken Howiere Mass Production	Posted - 2009.01.26 11:26:00 - [2800] Edited by: Krefken Howiere on 26/01/2009 11:26:23 Originally by: URUS FORGE People claiming one major corp having the exact starbase setup required to achieve this exploit. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053 Quick, look, look at how stupid you are!

davcin Caldari davcin Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:04:00 - [2801] So, no update about this?
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:12:00 - [2802] last announcement was that there would be an an indepth response by end of this month, start of next. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:37:00 - [2803] Urus, For the point and to your comment "do i believe that CCP was involved" not CCP as a whole,...BUT, being that CCP are gamers at heart,...hmmm kind of leaves me to wonder if they might have inside info on things that we as regular players woldnto have,...like starbase expolits for example. Do i believe that CCP as a whole was involved,...no and i can say that infaticly, only for the fact thtat they jurked the people out that were involved far too fast finding out that somethign was going on,...or it could be that someone found out about it and it would have been a VERY big black mark on CCP if it were to come out that CCP was involved in the first place. Do i believe that someone inside CCP knew about it,.....Yes,..I do and i believe that they let it go as long as it didnt get into the general public and cause a rukkus. SO then,..what to do about it. Well its out of our hands actually,...its up to CCP to TELL US whats going on,... I could be spitting in the wind here but there have been some here in this bog that have said that CCP is being very quiet about the whole thing,...and im leaning on the side of these people in the beliefe that something odd is afoot. See this is my thought here,...If CCP is involved and it gets out that they were involved as it was reported in the same mannor as the whole BoB insodent some years back,...it very well coule realy hurt CCPs reputation as not having a fair and balanced game that they sponsor,... Could it be that CCP is jsut sitting tight till this whole thing is blown over and time passes and everyone forgets that it even happened,....could be! You all are going to make yoru own decission on that fact,..if and or when CCP releases there report of findings,...just remember one thing though,.. ANY report that they release wether it is one that discribes everything to its fullest and to the complexity that is deserving of such a delema,...will be scrutinized and ridiculed by everyone and all involved in EVE. Every word ,....every phrase,....every sentnece will be gone over with a fine toothed comb and analized for its meaning and content. So then with all this said,...Why should CCP release a report on there findings,...ifits just going to be damaging to there game and reputation to there company. CCP already has some connection with the people involved, that is a fact that is undeniable in its entirity. I have read several blurbs that CCP and BoB are runners of the same faith and i made the comment earlier in this blog as to if CCP are a bunch of gamers then what corps do they run in? How many of the players that are involved in CCP are involved in Bob? Answer all this and then and only then could we realy see jsut what is truthfully goin gon here. The words and opinions spoken here are only my own,....CCP,...Your silence is deafining on this matter. Give us something.
Thorin Al	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:44:00 - [2804] sigh I could only read maybe 10 pages, and it depresses me. A) No interaction from CCP. I've seen this elsewhere, and it still floors me to this day that companys back away from the customers. Cover some facts regardless of how embarasing they are. B) People feel that mass bannings, calling out of the villans, and 'action' will somehow solve the problem. Especially long running exploits, this is not the case. The bulk of the rewards will have long been siphoned off to 'rainy day accounts', friends, brokers, etc. The people who did it do not care if they are banned, they had fun, and played with better finaces than most everyone else. They cheated for personal (and often finiacial) gain, and they have suceeded. Guess what? There's no win. The villans got the rewards, the bystanders picked up the left overs (cheaper whatever), the damage is done, and the checks have been cashed. There's nothing to do but damage control, and it's all PR. Yet, as normal, it's a low profile.
Ron Bacardi SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:21:00 - [2805] Originally by: PJRid** ...its up to CCP to TELL US whats going on,... They said they will when the data has been looked at. If that's not good enough for you, tough. Originally by: PJRid CCP already has some connection with the people involved, that is a fact that is undeniable in its entirity. Proof? Originally by: PJRid I have read several blurbs that CCP and BoB are runners of the same faith and i made the comment earlier in this blog as to if CCP are a bunch of gamers then what corps do they run in? How many of the players that are involved in CCP are involved in Bob? They wont answer that for obvious reasons. But you can bet there are probably some in Goon as well. Originally by: PJRid Answer all this and then and only then could we realy see jsut what is truthfully goin gon here. The words and opinions spoken here are only my own,....CCP,...Your silence is deafining on this matter. Give us something. They could answer all this truthfully and conspiracy-theory ** posters like you still wouldnt believe it.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:42:00 - [2806] All we know is that we do not know.. I would simply point to the 1000lb gorilla in the room.. If CCP can not see the balance of fuel cost to moon mats produced.. something which is as basic as basic can be.. well come to your own conclusions..
Rata Nrnima	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:48:00 - [2807] In little over a few weeks (March 10th) this will be forgotten in the excitement of the modular vessels, the worm hole,and all the overlooked programming issues in rush to get the patch out to divert attention. Whatever excitement that would have been there for me has been dampened by foreknowledge that BOB or whomever will already have the advantage,the modules, the what-evers. They will have the wormholes, the tech 3 minerals, access to the bpo's, etc. And all of it will be FREE. There are a mere handful of customers that frequent these forums and even less bother to comment. Those that do are either CCP stooges reiterating adnausium the company line, or customers genuinely upset getting spammed by CCP stooges. Easily recognizable by rhetoric and strict adherance to company defense. Then there are those whose sole purpose is to divert the conversation to the assinine. CCP does not have to care. Most of it's client base is totally unaware of the scandal and the rest don't care. Ironic that the isk vendors / a few exploiters are banneded / denigrated and CCP gets another pass.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:32:00 - [2808] Originally by: Rata Nrnima In little over a few weeks (March 10th) this will be forgotten in the excitement of the modular vessels, the worm hole,and all the overlooked programming issues in rush to get the patch out to divert attention. Whatever excitement that would have been there for me has been dampened by foreknowledge that BOB or whomever will already have the advantage,the modules, the what-evers. They will have the wormholes, the tech 3 minerals, access to the bpo's, etc. And all of it will be FREE. There are a mere handful of customers that frequent these forums and even less bother to comment. Those that do are either CCP stooges reiterating adnausium the company line, or customers genuinely upset getting spammed by CCP stooges. Easily recognizable by rhetoric and strict adherance to company defense. Then there are those whose sole purpose is to divert the conversation to the assinine. CCP does not have to care. Most of it's client base is totally unaware of the scandal and the rest don't care. Ironic that the isk vendors / a few exploiters are banneded / denigrated and CCP gets another pass. Rata there is only one way to change it.. and it's gonna take a **** ton of us to do it.
glassmanipulator Lucian Alliance Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:07:00 - [2809] Originally by: Rata Nrnima In little over a few weeks (March 10th) this will be forgotten in the excitement of the modular vessels, the worm hole,and all the overlooked programming issues in rush to get the patch out to divert attention. Whatever excitement that would have been there for me has been dampened by foreknowledge that BOB or whomever will already have the advantage,the modules, the what-evers. They will have the wormholes, the tech 3 minerals, access to the bpo's, etc. And all of it will be FREE. There are a mere handful of customers that frequent these forums and even less bother to comment. Those that do are either CCP stooges reiterating adnausium the company line, or customers genuinely upset getting spammed by CCP stooges. Easily recognizable by rhetoric and strict adherance to company defense. Then there are those whose sole purpose is to divert the conversation to the assinine. CCP does not have to care. Most of it's client base is totally unaware of the scandal and the rest don't care. Ironic that the isk vendors / a few exploiters are banneded / denigrated and CCP gets another pass. lol ^ this is hardcore.. but yea , makes me want to quit playing.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:59:00 - [2810] Originally by: Rata Nrnima In little over a few weeks (March 10th) this will be forgotten in the excitement of the modular vessels, the worm hole,and all the overlooked programming issues in rush to get the patch out to divert attention. Whatever excitement that would have been there for me has been dampened by foreknowledge that BOB or whomever will already have the advantage,the modules, the what-evers. They will have the wormholes, the tech 3 minerals, access to the bpo's, etc. And all of it will be FREE. There are a mere handful of customers that frequent these forums and even less bother to comment. Those that do are either CCP stooges reiterating adnausium the company line, or customers genuinely upset getting spammed by CCP stooges. Easily recognizable by rhetoric and strict adherance to company defense. Then there are those whose sole purpose is to divert the conversation to the assinine. CCP does not have to care. Most of it's client base is totally unaware of the scandal and the rest don't care. Ironic that the isk vendors / a few exploiters are banneded / denigrated and CCP gets another pass. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- Very Well spoken,...I totally agree =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- By the way,...Im attracted to bald women <---GRIN---<<< Fly safe and hide your razor and shaving cream! >R<

Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:44:00 - [2811] Originally by: Ron Bacardi They could answer all this truthfully and conspiracy-theory **** posters like you still wouldnt believe it. Doesn't a silence this long from CCP trouble you in the slightest? That's not to say that it's a sign of definite guilt in the form of negligence, nor being an accessory in some shape or form - but you find it acceptable to go so long without so much of a word to their paying customers after the 19th Dec? Are all conspiracy theories actually non-truths anyway? It always makes me laugh, that those that believe nearly all of the theories churned out in RL are classified as nutjobs (and if you believe most of them, you probably are a bit of a nutjob) and then there are those that simply believe none of them. They are supposedly the sane ones and living in the real world. Ignorance and blissful ignorance don't seem to come into it. They are just as bad in my opinion. ____________________________________ Google - 'Rata Nrnima bunyip issler'
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:23:00 - [2812] folks of a similar mind who are simply questioning what we are told and/or asking why the delay.. or are simply PO'd at this situation. I would like to discuss this issue in game.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:11:00 - [2813] Originally by: Rata Nrnima In little over a few weeks (March 10th) this will be forgotten in the excitement of the modular vessels, the worm hole,and all the overlooked programming issues in rush to get the patch out to divert attention. Whatever excitement that would have been there for me has been dampened by foreknowledge that BOB or whomever will already have the advantage,the modules, the what-evers. They will have the wormholes, the tech 3 minerals, access to the bpo's, etc. And all of it will be FREE. There are a mere handful of customers that frequent these forums and even less bother to comment. Those that do are either CCP stooges reiterating adnausium the company line, or customers genuinely upset getting spammed by CCP stooges. Easily recognizable by rhetoric and strict adherance to company defense. Then there are those whose sole purpose is to divert the conversation to the assinine. CCP does not have to care. Most of it's client base is totally unaware of the scandal and the rest don't care. Ironic that the isk vendors / a few exploiters are banneded / denigrated and CCP gets another pass. It's exactly how they always have operated. About 3-5 days before the expansion is to launch on say a friday night they'll release their report. Then quickly bury it with a number of other expansion related blogs. They'll then not comment at all on the exploit or its report as they'll not have "time" to do so being consumed by the new stuff. It is how they have handled every scandal since the dawn of the game. Frankly there is no way an exploit could have existed for so long without some sort of complacency on the part of one or more employees at CCP. No way it existed for 4 years without someone else duplicating the set up by mistake and reporting it, it is just unreasonable to assume that no one else stumbled upon it. Given that it then becomes that since a report was filed who covered it up and why.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:01:00 - [2814] common sense would suggest you are correct. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
mythpilot	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:18:00 - [2815] Rofl 94 pages
Ron Bacardi SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:19:00 - [2816] Originally by: Saphirro Originally by: Ron Bacardi They could answer all this truthfully and conspiracy-theory **** posters like you still wouldnt believe it. Doesn't a silence this long from CCP trouble you in the slightest? That's not to say that it's a sign of definite guilt in the form of negligence, nor being an accessory in some shape or form - but you find it acceptable to go so long without so much of a word to their paying customers after the 19th Dec? Are all conspiracy theories actually non-truths anyway? It always makes me laugh, that those that believe nearly all of the theories churned out in RL are classified as nutjobs (and if you believe most of them, you probably are a bit of a nutjob) and then there are those that simply believe none of them. They are supposedly the sane ones and living in the real world. Ignorance and blissful ignorance don't seem to come into it. They are just as bad in my opinion. I'm still having fun playing this game regardless of the "scandals". It hasn't bothered me in the slightest. As for no word since Dec 19, they're not going to have their entire staff working on this issue. I'd be surprised if more than 2 people are mining the data from the last 4 years. That's a big job and they have an expansion coming up. And they have produced results as accounts have been banned, POS's destroyed and ISK confiscated. They're never going to find all of it. It seems like the only point at which people will be satisfied is when their own personal vendettas are banned.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.29 03:54:00 - [2817] See I guess I find it odd that people paying $150+ a year wouldn't be ticked off that this sort of thing slipped through. It really is as simple as a customers right to expect a certian level of service. Now if you don't happen to care..thats fine. However, I fail to see the point of posting simply to gripe about customers with legit concerns. We pay for the game just like you.. our concerns shouldnt bother you anymore than CCPs failures bother you. I am well aware that there are vast 1000s who don't care about this.. they just want to play. What you are missing is that by us demanding to know the truth, we may very well be motivating CCP to make sure this never happens again. Which would benefit us all.. including the people who simply.. don't care. I could explain to you in simple detail why I think what I do.. but since you don't care... I won't tire you with any of that burdensome mind clutter. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Rata Nrnima	Posted - 2009.01.29 07:16:00 - [2818] Edited by: Rata Nrnima on 29/01/2009 07:25:37 Originally by: Ron Bacardi [snip]It seems like the only point at which people will be satisfied is when their own personal vendettas are banned. Reality check: CCP is going to do what they want regardless of what any of us does or does not say, irregardless of our feelings or opinions to the contrary. We get to whine as long as we pay the fee to do so. If we mattered they'd be all over this trying to make us happy. Not enough of us care. We do not impact the financial bottom line. We continue to pay in spite of it all.
Saphirro	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:56:00 - [2819] Originally by: URUS FORGE Now if you don't happen to care..thats fine. However, I fail to see the point of posting simply to gripe about customers with legit concerns. We pay for the game just like you.. our concerns shouldnt bother you anymore than CCPs failures bother you. I am well aware that there are vast 1000s who don't care about this.. they just want to play. It's largely because it's seen to be both Big and Clever to respond with: Cry moar n00b, QQ Adapt or Die You lot still complaining about this? Just pay and shut the hell up. What these muppets don't realise, is most likely, one day - not necessarily about EvE - they will be in the same position as a paying customer - and they won't it one little bit. Some others will never care, as they live in ignorance - since it's better to live in this world as moron who thinks no-one is trying to stiff you, than actually thinking things through and realising you are actually being stiffed. Oh well. Every dog...
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.30 01:47:00 - [2820] As I said.. if anyone of like mind would like to discuss this in game. Feel free to contact me. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell

Jinx Barker Caldari GFB Scientific	Posted - 2009.01.31 15:05:00 - [2821] It has been well over a month... any updates? ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.31 15:40:00 - [2822] the last update was about 2 weeks ago from CSM.. saying there would be an extremely detailed report which would explain every thing except the names of the pilots. Which basically is saying that they have proved the theory of relativeity.. but we can't show you the evidence.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.31 21:50:00 - [2823] Ok I have continued to look around to find a reason why I should trust CCP on their handling of this issue.. In their last statement CCP said they couldn't see it until it was too late. I recently found something that was rather interesting and thought I would share it, and let folks make up their own mind. As we all know EvE has an economist Dr.EyjoG http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Dr.EyjoG The good Dr himself has professed that minerals and all building mats are the very Foundation of EvE. I would like folks to look at the many indepth graphs posted by the good Dr here from 2007 http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=498 Clearly you can see the good Doc has access to massive ammounts of data involving the very foundations of the eve economy. Please pay particular attention to the smaller graphs noting TOTAL MINERALS in the game.... broken down by mineral types. Now this 'exploit' if you can call it that.. was pumping out free mats every cycles x 6 stations .. per the Doc..In 2007 there was an avg of 1.6 trillion in minerals traded daily. Now moon mats are not exactly as plentiful as trit.. pye.. ane possibly even as rare or rarer than zyd. Now the Doc can track trillions of minerals.. but not moon mats? So to all those people who have simply tossed stones at me, rather than engaging in intelligent friendly discourse.. I must say.. check mate! I am now 99.999% confident that CCP can see every input/output of the game. If they can pull data like that on minerals.. I know they have it all right at their fingertips.
Rata Nrnima	Posted - 2009.02.01 15:49:00 - [2824] Originally by: URUS FORGE Ok I have continued to look around to find a reason why I should trust CCP [snip]...economist Dr.EyjoG[snip]... professed that minerals and all building mats are the very Foundation of EvE. [snip] the good Doc has access to massive ammounts of data involving the very foundations of the eve economy. Please pay particular attention to the smaller graphs noting TOTAL MINERALS in the game.... broken down by mineral types. Now this 'exploit' if you can call it that.. was pumping out free mats every cycles x 6 stations .. per the Doc..In 2007 there was an avg of 1.6 trillion in minerals traded daily. Now moon mats are not exactly as plentiful as trit.. pye.. ane possibly even as rare or rarer than zyd. Now the Doc can track trillions of minerals.. but not moon mats? [snip]CCP can see every input/output of the game. [snip] CCP admits to the existing disgrace only because they were irrefutably caught by out-of-game sources that "might" effect new customers joining eve play and inform existing client base that do not frequent these forums but haunt other forums. Those of us that are upset by this uncaring unwillingness to accept responsibility for CCP employee actions coupled with tepid attempt at justification for abdicating our expectation of a fair game to all are in the "acceptable losses" column. We don't impact the financial bottom line. You've proven CCP economist Dr.EyjoG, undeniably knew of manipulated market for nefarious reasons; continuing silence on CCPs part is habitual entrenched arrogant disdain for it's paying customer base. Bet the good Dr. regrettably informs his 'unfortunate' omission of moon materials tracking in the upcoming report.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.02.01 18:08:00 - [2825] Rata, it does not matter.. we now know they have the ability to see it. And since moon mats are as vital as trit to the economy.. only a fool would think they could not see this problem.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.02.02 13:37:00 - [2826] URUS,.. YOu my friend are on right, CCP DOSE have the ability to go back and see EVERYTHING that happens in there game. Not to change the subject here but,...to prove my point here a bit, A while back in was out missioning and due to a glitch in the mission i ended up loosing a mega. I went back to one of the game masters and explaned to him what had happened and by his own admittion what had happened should not have happened, and that it was a glitch in the mission. He further went on and explaned that with out proof of the insodent he could not reimburse me the ship. This insodent went on back and forth between me and this GM for about two weeks untill i thld him that i had hooked up with one of my corp mates in the mission and that there was a witness to the insodent that i was filing on. It was at that point that this GM finally went back and looked at the logs and reimbursed me the ship. NOW to get back to the problem at hand. It seems to me that this kind of attitude is very flagerent in the workings of not only the GMs but the developers and the people that run and manage the game. If this is true, "LAZYNESS" then the questin arises "Will we ever get the questions answered as to what actually happened" or will we just be shrugged off as we have been scence all this transpired. And to give a thank yo to the GM that i was working thru,.."Thank you for taking the time to look at the records and the reimbursement ofmy Mega". CCP,...take note,...this GM did a good job here and did what was right, Your turn,...give us what you have found so far. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I was told in the beginning not to trust anyone in EVE,...Im seeing that this thought extends well into life as it is. Clatu Verada Nicto Fly safe and watch your back,....you dont know whos looking to chew on it. >R<
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:15:00 - [2827] So CCP, its been almost 2 weeks since the last CSM meetings. We have information that they were presented with the final results of these findings and were told it would be made in short order. Why the delay? It was ready to show them, lets get it out and let folks see what's there.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.02.04 14:41:00 - [2828] The delay is pathetic really..
Rata Nrnima	Posted - 2009.02.04 23:44:00 - [2829] Edited by: Rata Nrnima on 05/02/2009 01:17:37 Originally by: El'Niaga So CCP, its been almost 2 weeks since the last CSM meetings. We have information that they were presented with the final results of these findings and were told it would be made in short order. Why the delay? It was ready to show them, lets get it out and let folks see what's there. We have to wait until we are closer to the new patch release so paying customers do not have time to obtain answers to inevitable questions. CCP will be entirely too busy to respond because of the impossible problems with releasing a patch way to early. BUT! It will divert attention. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Our options: 1. Continue to pay and play. Ignor it all. 2. Take the advice of so many of the above and take our collective money and go play WOW/(Insert name of game). 3. Continue to pay whine until the next cheat is disclosed. CCP cares less which any of us choose.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:17:00 - [2830] In light of recent news...more light may be shed on this exploit.

El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.02.08 06:47:00 - [2831] I doubt it, they don't really want to tell us. As previously mentioned, no way an exploit on this scale lasted for years without some sort of complacency on one or more CCP employees parts.
Blue Harrier Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:20:00 - [2832] I canÆt understand why all the æconspiracy theoristsÆ havenÆt made note of the æmaster strokeÆ possibly pulled by CCP. At the start of this thread much æfinger pointingÆ was directed at BOB and many accusations founded or unfounded were made at their possible use of this exploit. So if CCP in their data mining found the accusations were true (personally I donÆt care either way), what better way to remove the embarrassment than disbanding BOB, giving the Goons the credit then launching the next expansion. They now have a very big æcarpetÆ to sweep the rubbish under and all the pointing fingers get their æpound of fleshÆ (the demise of BOB) and everyone else comes out smelling of roses.
Rata Nrnima	Posted - 2009.02.09 07:27:00 - [2833] Originally by: Blue Harrier I canÆt understand why all the æconspiracy theoristsÆ havenÆt made note of the æmaster strokeÆ possibly pulled by CCP. At the start of this thread much æfinger pointingÆ was directed at BOB and many accusations founded or unfounded were made at their possible use of this exploit. So if CCP in their data mining found the accusations were true (personally I donÆt care either way), what better way to remove the embarrassment than disbanding BOB, giving the Goons the credit then launching the next expansion. They now have a very big æcarpetÆ to sweep the rubbish under and all the pointing fingers get their æpound of fleshÆ (the demise of BOB) and everyone else comes out smelling of roses. Not all believe BOB is really gone. Your observations are dead on - Glaringly so. It drives home: Back to business as usual. The perfect coup.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.02.09 13:22:00 - [2834] As i said before,..those that were removed from game, more than likely now are back in the game under either another account or an alt. i cant see CCP removing so many players "just like that". Just like the liberals of this country,......>Back Room Deals< Now THERES a Comspiricy theory for ya <----<<< Just my thoughts,.... >R<
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.02.10 05:15:00 - [2835] Personally I don't really care if people in 0.0 were getting reactions for "free". There is no end game in Eve, just the good people I fly with that makes the game fun. What is concerning is the Dr's lack of quarterly reports, which I read when I found them and enjoyed them too. However if you know that the maximum amount of x = 2 per year, yet 4.5 times as much had hit the market in the first twelve months then surely you'd realise something was wrong. Multiply that by four years and even at my imaginary figures it's impossible NOT to detect. Of course, I'm assuming that CCP knows EXACTLY what moons, in what system has what moon materials at any given moment, and the fact that they don't change means it's pretty static. It's a case of how much can you get of x per moon per week/month/year. Not a difficult sum by any means. Might be a little harder in finding out where the minerals and items came from when produced so the sheer number of T2 ships might have been a second indicator as well. Whatever the answers the dev's play the game. CCP has introduced the Internal Review guys, but CCP seem to be employing a lot more marketing speelers who are obviously more visual than the IR people. The only thing left to be said is that it's their sandbox. This is the only sci-fi mmo on the market and when a gambler is asked why they go to the crooked game the reply is "It's the only game in town". -------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.02.10 15:37:00 - [2836] Hay Guys,...i was just up on Battleclinic.com,...go look at there intro page. There is a blurb about BoBs disbandment. Thought you all might be interested,.. thats todays daate 10Feburary 2009 And for some of you,...this might answer some of your questions but raise more unanswered ones in the same breath. >R<
Shai'Hailud	Posted - 2009.02.22 03:17:00 - [2837] Could we get an update about current investigations please, would be a shame to let this thread die a silent death.
Cuchulain Spartan	Posted - 2009.02.24 15:55:00 - [2838] Edited by: Cuchulain Spartan on 24/02/2009 15:56:53 Originally by: URUS FORGE I think it is high time for CCP to remove themselves and their employees as players of the game. They need to remove all suspect of them and their direct involvement surrounding these so-called 'exploits' Anyone here ever enter a competition to win a car or the local lotto? Read the fine print and most of the time it says that employees and direct family member/friends of employees arent permitted to enter, why? CONFLICT OF INTEREST, thats why ! I for one agree that no CCP employer should ever be allowed to play on a private account. Yes it would be hard to police but finding an employee who does should be an instant fire offence. I dont trust CCP, why, because one or two bad eggs in the past have spoiled the whole pot for me (Vincent "t20" P, a core EVE developer anyone?)And yes I still play the game and pay because I like the game; I just dont like what goes on behind some of the closed doors. Based on the t20 incident and this 4 year POS moon min exploit I cant trust CCP to do the right thing. After all t20 was never fired and the moon min exploit went "unnoticed" for so long. Both only came to light after players made them public, not CCP URUS FORGE, I want to thank you for keeping this alive and agree with you 100% on all of your posts that I have read. Keep up the fine work. Cuc


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