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branodn lee
Minmatar Capital Ships Inc. Morsus Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:42:00 -
[1]
as the subject says, who thinks ccp went to far on the nerf of missiles.
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:45:00 -
[2]
i.. plz.. missiles need to be looked at again.. or atleast give the cerberus some kind of bonus so it can hit other cruisers for atleast some dps... sence u ****ed my hams up so bad and am now stuck useing heavy missiles
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:45:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/11/2008 02:45:32
I blew through a Level 4 with a Drake a little earlier. Honestly I think heavy missiles are even more effective against BC's and BS's than they used to be. Light drones seem to be doing more damage too although maybe that's my imagination.
The missiles definitely do less damage against small targets though, and the smaller targets seemed to be hitting me pretty hard for their size. But it seems like a fair trade. I don't use BS-sized missiles though except for Bombers and I haven't tested those yet.
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:46:00 -
[4]
I haven't had much difficulty. _____________________
My opinions plus a tablespoon of water may be substituted for your own. |
Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:47:00 -
[5]
I haven't tested it out myself yet (trapped in classes) but I'm starting to wonder if we'll hear the bang from the CNR market crashing even further.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I haven't had much difficulty.
This.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:47:00 -
[7]
I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:52:00 -
[8]
basicly missiles werent great for pvp before.. now they are basicly useless lol
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Veldya I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment basicly missiles werent great for pvp before.. now they are basicly useless lol
You mean you used to have missiles that could hit nanoships? _____________________
My opinions plus a tablespoon of water may be substituted for your own. |
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:56:00 -
[11]
MWD increased the damage of larger missiles against you before in theory. The only reason you didn't take more damage in practice was because your velocity offset the explosion. If you had a MWD activated and if the missile caught you in the middle of a course change, you were going to take a major hit. So that hasn't really changed. It's just that a lower maximum velocity makes these harder hits more likely.
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Depopulo
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:03:00 -
[12]
It sucks..just went ratting in my Torp Raven....
1.The raven speed has been nerfed...the NPC BS's go faster than me now... 2.The explosion velocity on my torp is now about 99 m/sec..the NPC BS travels at about 139 m/sec...
Which means the explosion on a torp is to slow to do full damage(put NPC resistance aside atm) on a huge ass BS.
I have Target Nav Prediction trained to 4..even at 5 it will still be nerfed.
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: branodn lee as the subject says, who thinks ccp went to far on the nerf of missiles.
I do.
Oh, and I fly Amarr.
I suspect that the real reason for the missile nerf is that, story-line-wise, CCP need the Gallente to win.
Because their Q&A department couldn't have screwed them up this bad on purpose, right? Right?
Oh. Right.
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:05:00 -
[14]
Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
Yeah but a real battleship shooting at a real destroyer is shooting at something that is not only closer to its own size than an Eve AF is to a BS, but also something that is moving much closer to its own speed.
Of course a real destroyer may also be packing weaponry capable of doing massive damage to a battleship. Armor-busting guided missiles, for instance. No shields IRL.
But in before "no comparisons with RL ships plx"
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
To kill AF:
Fit: 1 Web 1 Scram 1 Heavy Neut
Activate all on your target and saute gently. Serve to taste.
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
Yeah but a real battleship shooting at a real destroyer is shooting at something that is not only closer to its own size than an Eve AF is to a BS, but also something that is moving much closer to its own speed.
Of course a real destroyer may also be packing weaponry capable of doing massive damage to a battleship. Armor-busting guided missiles, for instance. No shields IRL.
But in before "no comparisons with RL ships plx"
yeah but a RL BS, would one shot a destroyer. :)
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Veldya I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
But you don't need it to. It's doing craptastic damage anyway ;-)
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:11:00 -
[19]
Basically to protect interceptors they destroyed missiles for all other PVP applications(which they werent strong for to start with.).
If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
To kill AF:
Fit: 1 Web 1 Scram 1 Heavy Neut
Activate all on your target and saute gently. Serve to taste.
Ummm, scram, < 10K, web reduced the speed to 400m/s and the neut didn't stop him from burning away. and this was ONE ship. if there were 4 or 5 well that'd be all she wrote. for the raven.
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Lone Hitman
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:13:00 -
[21]
I just went mission running on "Unauthorized Military Presence" (Blood Raiders, level 4) that used to be fairly easy (but you don't get many loyalty points) and now it's taking 3-4 times longer for the same reward! I also have to recharge my shield a HUGE amount compared to what it was like before. I mission run in a Golem with max siege skills, using javelin torpedoes and the difference now is absolutely ridiculous. Don't forget this is meant to be an EASY mission, I dread to think what a hard one's like now. I'm not even going to bother until they fix it.
Fair enough making it a little bit more difficult, but they've gone too far this time.
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:14:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Goyda on 12/11/2008 03:14:27
Originally by: Ghoest Basically to protect interceptors they destroyed missiles for all other PVP applications(which they werent strong for to start with.).
I don't see how, most intys were doing ~6k/s and my missle weren't hitting them so how did they protect them. they're the mini coups they should be vunerable. Ahh well no use complaining, just have to go to mmorpg.com and start looking for something new to play. damn shame too, I've been giving CCP my money for ALOT of years now and the skills I trained for were just jacked. And yes I still have plenty of cheese.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:16:00 -
[23]
I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.
For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:16:00 -
[24]
Upshooting makes missiles even better (engaging targets larger than the missiles intended target class) whereas engaging the intended class of targets or smaller makes missiles... completely pointless.
Thus, the Raven is out and the Drake is in for Lvl 4 pwnage.
Yes, they went too far and did not test nearly enough to understand how craptastic some of the changes were. Ohh well, CCP strikes again.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:17:00 -
[25]
I dont ever use any missiles other then cruise missiles. But I also trained torps to lvl 1 just to see on sisi.
I made the fact pretty clear... cruise when used against battleships and such are more or less unchanged.
Stealth bombers have been rendered worthless still.
I also find out from nearly maxed out torp golem users... they are seeing nearly 50% less damage vs bs. 80% or so less damage vs cruisers and bcs. and utter inability to kill mwd npc frigs.
Which is soooo wrong. ------------------------ Have you fed your slaves recently? -BRB Rens |
Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:18:00 -
[26]
i wonder if they will change it abit.. i loved my cerb : (
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:20:00 -
[27]
Definitely.
Nerf Zulupark. NOW. |
Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mister Xerox Upshooting makes missiles even better (engaging targets larger than the missiles intended target class) whereas engaging the intended class of targets or smaller makes missiles... completely pointless.
Thus, the Raven is out and the Drake is in for Lvl 4 pwnage.
Yes, they went too far and did not test nearly enough to understand how craptastic some of the changes were. Ohh well, CCP strikes again.
Yeah this might just be the final blow for me. In all seriousness. Take something working and break it. All MMORPGs do it. I stopped playing EQ when they did (for EvE oddly enough) I guess it's just eve's time.
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jason Edwards I dont ever use any missiles other then cruise missiles. But I also trained torps to lvl 1 just to see on sisi.
I made the fact pretty clear... cruise when used against battleships and such are more or less unchanged.
Stealth bombers have been rendered worthless still.
I also find out from nearly maxed out torp golem users... they are seeing nearly 50% less damage vs bs. 80% or so less damage vs cruisers and bcs. and utter inability to kill mwd npc frigs.
Which is soooo wrong.
wait umm.. what has happened with stealthbombers.. can thaey hit anything lol
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
Ships were never meant to out-run missiles. I had no problems catching most nano ships with the old system but the speed mitigated the damage down to zero because the old formula didn't account for the speed ships could travel at.
Quote:
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
Well, the definition of decent is debatable. Firing cruise missiles at a Typhoon you lose 55% of damage for just going at AB speed, that is with no implants and not speed mods.
Light missiles which are the frigate size weapon will lose 40%+ of damage against a frigate just from stock level 5 skills + AB on a frigate. It will be in the vicinity of 60% or so for any speed modded ship. This is before resistances.
So your 103 damage kinetic light missile will likely be hitting a frigate for less than 20 damage. You don't want to know what you will be hitting an assault ship for.
Quote:
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
MWD will increase the damage by missiles slightly for smaller faster ships, the real change of speed tanking is to improve speed while keeping signature radius down as much as possible.
The mechanics are an improvement when it comes to PvP vs speed ships, but the adverse effect is that missile damage has been significantly reduced for ships that are not speed tanking. Minmatar battleships get a massive boost in defense against missiles just because of their significantly smaller signature radius.
You just dont need battleships traveling at AB speed to mitigate half your damage before you factor resists. It puts them at a significant disadvantage over turrets, as if they weren't **** enough in fleet battles.
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:29:00 -
[31]
so umm... what are missiles good for now?
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Anonymous Troll
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:30:00 -
[32]
No, CCP did not go too far with missiles.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:30:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sig Sour I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.
For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.
Well yeah, 95% of PvE takes place within TP range. A CNR can easily fit one, and they take a few days at most to skill for.
As for PvP... not so sure. But hey I just trained lasers, so I get to mothball my cerb and use a Zealot.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:30:00 -
[34]
Hitting ships that fit a MWD.
Lights to hit frigs. Heavies to hit cruisers or BC. Cruiser or torps for BS
Not that difficult.
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:30:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment so umm... what are missiles good for now?
When compared to guns, nothing. Unless you catch a HAC nano-ing.
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment so umm... what are missiles good for now?
the same thing ravens and golems and caldari missle boats are good for now, reprocessing and selling the mins to buy AF and other skillbooks. maybe a hulk or something to mine in high sec.
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Pilot Abilene
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:31:00 -
[37]
SO... they brought large missiles back in line with large turrets, what's the problem?
...also what's the deal with all these missile users that don't know how to use drones? lol
Oh and btw, I think its funny as hell that all these people saying they are going to train Amarr now because they seem to think large energy turrets are going to hit small targets any better. Hope you're prepared to train most gunnery skills to 5 and be prepared to still miss a lot of hits vs smaller targets. ^.^
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:31:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment so umm... what are missiles good for now?
When compared to guns, nothing. Unless you catch a HAC nano-ing.
ok and now that nanoing doesnt exist anymore?
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Megan Maynard Hitting ships that fit a MWD.
Lights to hit frigs. Heavies to hit cruisers or BC. Cruiser or torps for BS
Not that difficult.
I admire (actually, not really) your ability to ignore what all the people who actually use missiles are saying and simply claim that they are fine.
Guess what? They aren't. They have drastically reduced DPS.
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:32:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Pilot Abilene SO... they brought large missiles back in line with large turrets, what's the problem?
...also what's the deal with all these missile users that don't know how to use drones? lol
Oh and btw, I think its funny as hell that all these people saying they are going to train Amarr now because they seem to think large energy turrets are going to hit small targets any better. Hope you're prepared to train most gunnery skills to 5 and be prepared to still miss a lot of hits vs smaller targets. ^.^
well for one thing my cerberus doesnt have a drone bay lol
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Suitonia
Gallente interimo
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:33:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Suitonia on 12/11/2008 03:33:39 oh**** I have to fit a web, or a gang mate does just like with turret ships?
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:33:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment so umm... what are missiles good for now?
When compared to guns, nothing. Unless you catch a HAC nano-ing.
ok and now that nanoing doesnt exist anymore?
That's why everyone is rather upset.
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment so umm... what are missiles good for now?
When compared to guns, nothing. Unless you catch a HAC nano-ing.
ok and now that nanoing doesnt exist anymore?
That's why everyone is rather upset.
really?
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:37:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment really?
Well, except for Gallente players. Well, except for sub-BS Gallente players.
Who use drones.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:37:00 -
[45]
Enjoy the nano nerf, Caldari pigs.
Turret tracking got nerfed by 400% in webrange.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Kilhu Emmek
Minmatar Redshift Industrial
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:37:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Kilhu Emmek on 12/11/2008 03:44:40 Edited by: Kilhu Emmek on 12/11/2008 03:43:59 Anyone test stealth bombers yet?
Not sure if I should weep or start getting chuffed that I have good ishkur skills, too.
ME LIKE GO FAST ZOOOOOM.
Edit: so is the vengeance (rockets!) a pwnmobile now? Because I just trained into that thing last week after years of not touching Amarr boats.
Edit edit: I'm so upset over missiles that I forgot how to spell a few words. --
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:39:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Enjoy the nano nerf, Caldari pigs.
Turret tracking got nerfed by 400% in webrange.
Tell that to someone firing t2 blasters. that's a bit of ouch.
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Mr Banzai
Caldari Rogue Squadron
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:45:00 -
[48]
Yes to op.
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Dark 'Shadow
Talocan Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:53:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Mr Banzai Yes to op.
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Helios III
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:55:00 -
[50]
The OP didn't ask any questions, however this seems a good place to say that I think missiles are fine.
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:58:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Vikarion on 12/11/2008 03:57:45
Originally by: Helios III The OP didn't ask any questions, however this seems a good place to say that I think missiles are fine.
Let me guess...you don't use them much, right?
Let's see your certificates.
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:58:00 -
[52]
Who thinks CCP went too far with nanos?
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:04:00 -
[53]
Nano isnt dead, everything is now default nanod (versus missiles) but at much slower relative speeds.
Quote: SO... they brought large missiles back in line with large turrets, what's the problem?
No. Proper sized missiles versus proper sized target is default -damage before resists without AB or MWD. Painter minimum required now, even against same size ship. Unlike Turrets.
CCP needs to require armor tanking gun ships to lose another low slot in order to do proper damage to the same size ship class, just like shield tankers have to do now.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:04:00 -
[54]
You know what? I ****in love this patch. The only thing broken with it is the scramblers, everything else is great. Sure, I'm gonna have to refit some of my ships and trash some polycarbs, but overall I'm pretty happy with the way it turned out (and CCP actually listening to people when it came to missile damage and tracking related to the speed nerf).
Shame my nano apoc won't work anymore, but oh well. I'll find a use for it as a ninja sniper or something
Oh yeah, the missile changes? They're fine. Fit a target painter ---
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Soporo
CCP needs to require armor tanking gun ships to lose another low slot in order to do proper damage to the same size ship class, just like shield tankers have to do now.
We lost 3 midslots if we want to get somewhere near old tracking values. Caldari whiners are better off.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:15:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Soporo
CCP needs to require armor tanking gun ships to lose another low slot in order to do proper damage to the same size ship class, just like shield tankers have to do now.
We lost 3 midslots if we want to get somewhere near old tracking values. Caldari whiners are better off.
Only if you're attempting to engage a smaller ship class with an outsized weapon.
You're fine against same size class at ship default speeds and you know it. Missiles are not, and you know that too.
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Leon vanUber
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:31:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Caldari missiles
Enjoy your nano nerf, Caldari.
It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight. |
Korovyov
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:38:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Soporo Only if you're attempting to engage a smaller ship class with an outsized weapon.
You're fine against same size class at ship default speeds and you know it. Missiles are not, and you know that too.
Blaster Whiners > Missile Whiners
Hell, they were keen on the impending doom months ago while you guys were busy... not noticing?
--=--=-- end of post --=--=--
got booze? |
Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:40:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Korovyov
Originally by: Soporo Only if you're attempting to engage a smaller ship class with an outsized weapon.
You're fine against same size class at ship default speeds and you know it. Missiles are not, and you know that too.
Blaster Whiners > Missile Whiners
Hell, they were keen on the impending doom months ago while you guys were busy... not noticing?
I was too busy pointing out that autocannons and artillery are terrible.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:41:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Korovyov
Originally by: Soporo Only if you're attempting to engage a smaller ship class with an outsized weapon.
You're fine against same size class at ship default speeds and you know it. Missiles are not, and you know that too.
Blaster Whiners > Missile Whiners
Hell, they were keen on the impending doom months ago while you guys were busy... not noticing?
That's actually pretty accurate. Personally I didn't take notice until just before the patch. My fault for not doing QA's job. I quit my QA (another company) job, I don't want to pay for the priviledge of being CCP's QA.
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Elon Ikar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:47:00 -
[61]
I miss my missile damage for my cnr... :( I can live with the speed but these lvl 4's were long enough as it was.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:51:00 -
[62]
I tried shooting a drake in a thorax today, turned on MWD and burnt right at it. Three volleys of precision scourge put me into 75% armor, turning off the MWD didn't so much help.
Not sure what you guys are complaining about, the only things that are actually going to be fitting ABs anyway are frigates and you couldn't kill those before the patch either. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:54:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Terianna Eri I tried shooting a drake in a thorax today, turned on MWD and burnt right at it. Three volleys of precision scourge put me into 75% armor, turning off the MWD didn't so much help.
Well, duh. MWD'ing ships are the one thing missiles are now guaranteed to hurt.
Originally by: Terianna Eri Not sure what you guys are complaining about, the only things that are actually going to be fitting ABs anyway are frigates and you couldn't kill those before the patch either.
A) Yes we could, and B) why not?
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Waah
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:54:00 -
[64]
I only care about the missile/speed nerf in as much as it affects my ability to complete missions. If I have to spend a lot more time completing level 4 missions or I have a huge increase in risk of ship lose then I will probably just go and wait for Jumpgate Evolution.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:55:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Terianna Eri on 12/11/2008 04:55:23
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Terianna Eri I tried shooting a drake in a thorax today, turned on MWD and burnt right at it. Three volleys of precision scourge put me into 75% armor, turning off the MWD didn't so much help.
Well, duh. MWD'ing ships are the one thing missiles are now guaranteed to hurt.
And non-MWDing ships, apparently.
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Terianna Eri Not sure what you guys are complaining about, the only things that are actually going to be fitting ABs anyway are frigates and you couldn't kill those before the patch either.
A) Yes we could
Okay, with speed-boosted light missiles, sure
Quote: and B) why not?
Have you ever tried to burn back to a gate with an AB? __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Dracthera
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:58:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/11/2008 02:45:32
I blew through a Level 4 with a Drake a little earlier. Honestly I think heavy missiles are even more effective against BC's and BS's than they used to be. Light drones seem to be doing more damage too although maybe that's my imagination.
The missiles definitely do less damage against small targets though, and the smaller targets seemed to be hitting me pretty hard for their size. But it seems like a fair trade. I don't use BS-sized missiles though except for Bombers and I haven't tested those yet.
This. Same experience for me today. Ran GE4 in my Drake yesterday as a baseline before the patch. Ran it again today after the patch, and it sure seems like I finished it a lot faster. I'll have to time it tomorrow to see how it comes out. Heavy missiles work awesome against everything.
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Urticante
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:09:00 -
[67]
1 volley of heavy missiles from a drake now remove 10-15% of the shields of a full speed orbiting inty.
That seems pretty fine to me.
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Tallonn Dex
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:15:00 -
[68]
I have to agree with most folks here - CCP, you went overboard with the missile ner***e.
I sincerely hope you'll re-examine and move the ner***e somewhere between where it is now, and where it was before.
Holding out hope. :)
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War Hawk
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:17:00 -
[69]
after training specifically for t2 cruise and t2 torps for a long while, torps are now useless. 15km max range? thats a joke right? i think ccp screwed missiles more than they already did the first time they nerfed it. i just wasted ALL that time and my MONEY paying for this game, diddling with missiles, at the time, just to find out ccp has made them worse off and not fit for anything. fit an mwd, get in range, sure, get warp scrambled, no mwd, no range, cant get close to targets. means missiles are worthless. well torps anyways, is what im getting at. basically wasting our time training and now they arent good for anything but shooting containers out of space after 45 minutes waiting to get within 15km range. i think ccp drank a lil too much when nerfing that and speed. biggest **** up in eve history on ccp's behalf. moronic in a brilliant way, and thats not saying much.
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Countessa
Minmatar LEGI0N
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:37:00 -
[70]
Ok i just logged in and decided to come to the forums to see what people think.......... My Crow has gone from 8km/s too 5km/s. So i assume all my 'nano' ships have equally been knackered. Now the ability to hit my ships has obviously gone through the roof and since missiles are a good weapon (or was) against fast ships its only natural to slow them down ?
When they 1st introduced the full tracking rules many years ago i nearly cried as i couldnt even hit a BS with my 1400's in a Tempie fitted for ranged damage, but they tweeked and tampered some more and made it 'ok'
What im saying is if it realy IS that bad CCP arnt ******s (well for the most part) and will change it to balance out the game again (I hope)
Ive played Eve now for 5 years and seen many changes, each time every1 is going to quit and play Wow. But each time people adapt and find a new ways to Pvp or whatever there play style is. Im not saying CCP is right with these changes but give it a week and then complain and say its s**t !
Berneh > im gonna *snip* myself blind in a sec, im just printing a pic of siobhan then im off to bed SuperJonny > lolz
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Eltanan
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:14:00 -
[71]
It's things like this that make me glad all I do is mine rocks.
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Araxmas
The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:50:00 -
[72]
Have yet to try pvp with the change. Had to re-equip the ammo types of my Crow since change but apart from that everything checks out alright stat wise. No idea how AB/MWD change will effect inty pvp if anyone has had a scuffle yet. Would be good to find out how crows perform now. --------
derek |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:03:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
actually you dont even need t2 frigs t1s will work... run two tacklers, a jammer( optional), and 2 dps frigs all with ABs. I only say two tacklers so if one gets targetted and starts to get low he can warp out and back in while the other keeps him locked down.... simply put a BS can no longer does enough alpha damage to effectively take out a small gang of frigs
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:04:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 12/11/2008 08:04:47 In general i am finding drakes to out perform ravens in most cases. they can tank about the same and the dps is higher on smaller ships( on frigates as much as 6 times)
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Poba
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:14:00 -
[75]
Originally by: War Hawk after training specifically for t2 cruise and t2 torps for a long while, torps are now useless. 15km max range? thats a joke right? i think ccp screwed missiles more than they already did the first time they nerfed it. i just wasted ALL that time and my MONEY paying for this game, diddling with missiles, at the time, just to find out ccp has made them worse off and not fit for anything. fit an mwd, get in range, sure, get warp scrambled, no mwd, no range, cant get close to targets. means missiles are worthless. well torps anyways, is what im getting at. basically wasting our time training and now they arent good for anything but shooting containers out of space after 45 minutes waiting to get within 15km range. i think ccp drank a lil too much when nerfing that and speed. biggest **** up in eve history on ccp's behalf. moronic in a brilliant way, and thats not saying much.
DUUUUUUURRRRRRRR
some ppl are so ignorant
look at the high damage short range BS weapons. torps are perfectly inline with the rest of them now. they didnt even need the 33% ROF bonus they got when they got put inline with the rest of the short range weps.
so boring hearing all the ignorant bears scream " oh noez nano is unfair nerf them but leave alone my long range BS weps that hit frigs 1km away " and think its some undeserved nerf when missle get inlined
if you no like it, adapt or die, and if you die give me your stuffs when you emu quit
~Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents~ |
SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:25:00 -
[76]
I think it's kinda crappy to stealth-nerf caldari under the name "speed nerf", but whatever. __________________________________________________________
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Ragnar Darkstar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:30:00 -
[77]
What a bummer. I used to enjoy coming home from work to play a nice level four in less than an hour. Now it takes all night. What people are saying about missile ships being inline with other races in PVE is true, but that really only shows how bad EVE PVE already was. Theoretically, in a well balanced game no race should have a particular advantage in PVE, and it should be fun and do-able for all races. But with hordes of smaller ships, and turrets sucking at tracking them, it just became a royal pain in the ass for most ships save the missile ships and the drone ships. Now those are being nerfed.
At some point, EVE should take a serious look at the PVE system and redo it from the ground up so that all races can fly and enjoy relatively profitable PVE. Until then, the minimum they could do is undo this missile nerf.
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:35:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar What a bummer. I used to enjoy coming home from work to play a nice level four in less than an hour. Now it takes all night. What people are saying about missile ships being inline with other races in PVE is true, but that really only shows how bad EVE PVE already was. Theoretically, in a well balanced game no race should have a particular advantage in PVE, and it should be fun and do-able for all races. But with hordes of smaller ships, and turrets sucking at tracking them, it just became a royal pain in the ass for most ships save the missile ships and the drone ships. Now those are being nerfed.
At some point, EVE should take a serious look at the PVE system and redo it from the ground up so that all races can fly and enjoy relatively profitable PVE. Until then, the minimum they could do is undo this missile nerf.
I'm coming to the conclusion that "fun" isn't a part of CCP's vaunted "vision".
Apparently we are supposed to find "fun" in mining and giant fleet fights. Yippee. I think I'm gonna barf.
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Oftherocks
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:47:00 -
[79]
Anyone with half a brain who has actually looked at the changes would agree that the missile nerf was way over-done.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:48:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Vikarion To kill AF:
Fit: 1 Web 1 Scram 1 Heavy Neut
Activate all on your target and saute gently. Serve to taste.
Rather unnecessary.
Web ⇒ reduces target speed to 4-500m/s — still too fast to hit. Scram ⇒ pointless because the target uses an AB — use a good old disruptor instead. Neut ⇒ Ok, this works…
Then again, if that's your standard setup, then sure — might as well throw it all in.
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knobber Jobbler
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:51:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Vikarion To kill AF:
Fit: 1 Web 1 Scram 1 Heavy Neut
Activate all on your target and saute gently. Serve to taste.
Rather unnecessary.
Web ⇒ reduces target speed to 4-500m/s ù still too fast to hit. Scram ⇒ pointless because the target uses an AB ù use a good old disruptor instead. Neut ⇒ Ok, this worksà
Then again, if that's your standard setup, then sure ù might as well throw it all in.
And your supposed to put this all on a mission running ship where all its slots are pretty much spoken for? CCP have gone too far with this one. The original torp nerf I saw the logic behind but this one, I don't understand.
I feel like my 14m sp is now wasted.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:54:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Veldya I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
No if you are using an afterburner a single armour repair unit of your shipsize can tank 2 missileusing ships of your ships size or larger.
For a missileship to have any chance of breaking even a weak tank you need to be dual webbed & dual painted.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:08:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Tippia on 12/11/2008 09:08:10
Originally by: knobber Jobbler And your supposed to put this all on a mission running ship where all its slots are pretty much spoken for?
Mission running ships don't fight 1000+m/s AFs. The fact that we're talking about scrams, alone, should tell you that we're not discussing missions here.
For your problems: use drones (and stop overtanking — squeezing a web in there is easy if you feel the need to do so).
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Arcane Mystery
Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:10:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Depopulo It sucks..just went ratting in my Torp Raven....
1.The raven speed has been nerfed...the NPC BS's go faster than me now... 2.The explosion velocity on my torp is now about 99 m/sec..the NPC BS travels at about 139 m/sec...
Which means the explosion on a torp is to slow to do full damage(put NPC resistance aside atm) on a huge ass BS.
I have Target Nav Prediction trained to 4..even at 5 it will still be nerfed.
So, they fly to fast for you to do full damage? Web them maybe? They fly to fast for you to catch up? Tried using an AB? Their sig radius to small? Tried using a Target Painter? Don't want to sacrifice 2-3 mids from your tank to fit web/AB/Painter? Maybe you should try to use cruise missiles instead then?
Try to adapt and work out new ways to do things after a change in game instead of just expecting everything to work as before, that usually helps. Also, before you say I have no clue what I talk about.. I fly raven a lot and it works just fine, even after the patch, with some modifications to my old setup.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:14:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Hyveres on 12/11/2008 09:13:53
Originally by: Arcane Mystery So, they fly to fast for you to do full damage? Web them maybe? They fly to fast for you to catch up? Tried using an AB? Their sig radius to small? Tried using a Target Painter? Don't want to sacrifice 2-3 mids from your tank to fit web/AB/Painter? Maybe you should try to use cruise missiles instead then?
Try to adapt and work out new ways to do things after a change in game instead of just expecting everything to work as before, that usually helps. Also, before you say I have no clue what I talk about.. I fly raven a lot and it works just fine, even after the patch, with some modifications to my old setup.
Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:21:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Hyveres Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
Maybe that's your problem right there: you're trying to do it the same way, when things have changed. What targets are you having problems with? How hard is your tank pushed right now? What is it about your tank that requires the full rack of midslots?
For the record, the standard mission-runner battlecruisers have no tanking the bonus room, and they already have weapons that slices and dices small target…
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:30:00 -
[87]
i think CCP did a good job th with surcumstances, youve got to remeber all CCP have relyed on is a few whiners moaning about nano which has effected the whole player base and for some reason nano is still a go go since no one can hit em :D so its a nano buff ^^
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:30:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hyveres Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
Maybe that's your problem right there: you're trying to do it the same way, when things have changed. What targets are you having problems with? How hard is your tank pushed right now? What is it about your tank that requires the full rack of midslots?
For the record, the standard mission-runner battlecruisers have no tanking the bonus room, and they already have weapons that slices and dices small targetà
Killing 1m bounty angel battleships in a drake is pointless.
Effectivly this patch says go turretboat , missiles are so inefficient that they might as well be considered obsolete. Heavy missiles suck vs cruisers , Light missiles suck vs Frigates , Cruise missiles suck vs battleships.
Using drones for small targets is fine , but having to use heavy drones to have proper damage vs battleships just means its probably better to fly any other race's ships.
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Jolliejoe
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:32:00 -
[89]
Caldari was dead for solo pvp before the nerf... Now it is even more utterly useless... Thanks CCP.
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Huurtney Gurdsen
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:37:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Megan Maynard Hitting ships that fit a MWD.
Lights to hit frigs. Heavies to hit cruisers or BC. Cruiser or torps for BS
Not that difficult.
Maynard, you corp tea-leaf!
Given the FW corp you robbed their stuff back yet ?
Yea, though I wart through the valet of thy shadowy hut I will feed no norman. |
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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:41:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 12/11/2008 09:43:57 Oooo Controversy.
Missions were **** anyway, I only got the same old **** again and again, so **** it. Less QQ moar Pew Pew.
Glad I spent more time training turrets than missiles tbh.
How are rockets by the way? They were a nice little bit of additional DPS, or are those screwed now too?
Edit - Anyone wanna buy a Raven?
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Chris Liath
Gallente Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:42:00 -
[92]
I don't.
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:42:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Hyveres Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
The AE bonus room is SUPPOSED to be tough! Why do you think it isn't included in the mission objectives?
It being easily solo'able really defeated its purpose! You SHOULDN'T be able to solo it unless you have top-equipment and skills! (a Raven is NOT top equipment)
Compared to all other BS, Ravens have been overpowered for mission running for a long time. This has now been corrected! (I've missioned in a Raven for 3 years, and it WAS way too easy....)
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:46:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 12/11/2008 09:13:53
Originally by: Arcane Mystery So, they fly to fast for you to do full damage? Web them maybe? They fly to fast for you to catch up? Tried using an AB? Their sig radius to small? Tried using a Target Painter? Don't want to sacrifice 2-3 mids from your tank to fit web/AB/Painter? Maybe you should try to use cruise missiles instead then?
Try to adapt and work out new ways to do things after a change in game instead of just expecting everything to work as before, that usually helps. Also, before you say I have no clue what I talk about.. I fly raven a lot and it works just fine, even after the patch, with some modifications to my old setup.
Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
Whine less. As an armour tanker its not a place to be already without some extra help. So in short you just got put down with the rest of us. There is a reason why 95% of mission runners fly raven/cnr/golem.
So get a friend or logistics if you cant handle the very heavy DPS room!
Damn whiners.
--------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:48:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Shintai
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 12/11/2008 09:13:53
Originally by: Arcane Mystery So, they fly to fast for you to do full damage? Web them maybe? They fly to fast for you to catch up? Tried using an AB? Their sig radius to small? Tried using a Target Painter? Don't want to sacrifice 2-3 mids from your tank to fit web/AB/Painter? Maybe you should try to use cruise missiles instead then?
Try to adapt and work out new ways to do things after a change in game instead of just expecting everything to work as before, that usually helps. Also, before you say I have no clue what I talk about.. I fly raven a lot and it works just fine, even after the patch, with some modifications to my old setup.
Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
Whine less. As an armour tanker its not a place to be already without some extra help. So in short you just got put down with the rest of us. There is a reason why 95% of mission runners fly raven/cnr/golem.
So get a friend or logistics if you cant handle the very heavy DPS room!
Damn whiners.
Oh I can handle it , heck I am glad I was already moving to a turret boat before this nerf came along and its good to fly ships without any real weaknesses and instant damage :)
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:52:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Hyveres Killing 1m bounty angel battleships in a drake is pointless.
Why? Pointless in what way?
Quote: Using drones for small targets is fine , but having to use heavy drones to have proper damage vs battleships just means its probably better to fly any other race's ships.
Define "proper damage" — again, any of the BCs already do just fine against mission battleships.
Also, is there any reason you didn't want to answer my questions?
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:54:00 -
[97]
Time/isk ratio is too low to make it worthwhile.
That is what makes it pointless.
Any cruise missile setup was always inferior to a comparable turretsetup for the proper damagetype.
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Eran Laude
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:57:00 -
[98]
I tried popping a few Guristas rats in my Nemesis before I crashed . . .
One volley didn't even halve the shield on a dire arrogator Before QR I could pop any NPC frig in a single volley.
Bombers and missile ships need some loving now - the bomber is genuinely useless if it's basically a frig that can only do damage to Battleships . . .
They definitely went too far, or forgot that bombers exist. If I wanted a ship to kill battleships, I would fly a battleship. But I don't - I fly a bomber. A now useless bomber . . .
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:05:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Hyveres Time/isk ratio is too low to make it worthwhile.
Again, using what setup? Define "proper damage".
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:29:00 -
[100]
I think the problem with the missiles is:
CM/Torps are rendeeres useless against anything thats not bigger than a BS. Heavies and Standart seem to be fine I hear? So the smaller missiles are in line with turrets..the LArger are not!
[To the Blaster guys: Yeah you lost webbing but the others lost speed hu? Missiles lost DPS because the formula was changed. You were "!nerfed" passively, the missiles actively]
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My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:33:00 -
[101]
when my faction cruises do 11.2 dmg to a frig and all seven of em cant even break the tank of an average frig.... thats not cool. cant wait to come accross a dire version or an elite fed frig thats gunna be fun.
i just did an average mission spent a whole rack of full launchers killing one frig. took ages - looks like minings the way to go boys
yes i have drones except drones tend to bring down the whole pocket on you - or they get blown up before you take out many frigs cos they got pocket agro. also dont forget that they have now "rebalanced" med drones against frigate sized targets. drones are not the anser to all missle vs frig problems
it seems that CCP wants caldari to have a 3 slot tank because we now have to fit painters and webbers just to kill ****,
these people who say that CCP has only brought missiles into line with guns are full of ****. our ships are designed differently our tanks work differently - to "balance" missiles you have to rethink all sorts of things.
BTW dont even think about fitting a smart bomb if your helping someone out - wrecks can now get you concorded because they belong to the mission owner now
bold move CCP but in the end i think people are going to vote with thier feet - expect quite a high attrition rate. im just ****ed i am paid up till feb next year - talk to me then i might give you my stuff.
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:44:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 12/11/2008 10:44:42
I can't for the life of me understand what all this crying is about. I've done a couple of level 4 missions since the patch, such as The Assault lvl 4 and Pirate Invasion versus sansha, and I hardly noticed a difference. On some occasions the NPC HACs took an extra salvo to kill at worst.
As for killing frigates with cruise, get some drones.
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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:33:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Veldya I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
you are talking out of your ass so stfu. if same size target just set on a AB your dmg is reduced around 30-50% depending on weapon sieze.
___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:34:00 -
[104]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Veldya I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
you are talking out of your ass so stfu. if same size target just set on a AB your dmg is reduced around 30-50% depending on weapon sieze.
And if he's coming at you with an AB, you can kite him with laughable ease in your MWD-fitted missileboat.
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Isabel Angel
Gallente NorthUnited
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:36:00 -
[105]
they went way too far. this is ****. i want my old missiles back.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:38:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Orion GUardian Yeah you lost webbing but the others lost speed hu?
Hu. Webs got nerfed by 400%.
Did you see speeds nerfed by 400%, now?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:39:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Malcanis
And if he's coming at you with an AB, you can kite him with laughable ease in your MWD-fitted missileboat.
No, you need to always fit AB. Rendering someone unable to hit while you're chewing his slow AB ass is, like, cheating.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Klyde
United Systems Navy Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:53:00 -
[108]
I think the problem here is there are too many Raven pilots 6 months to a year old here and expect to do top dmg all the time. I think you will find most ppl complaining do not have the skills and are mostly new. Lets face it, there are too many Navy ravens belonging to pilots in newb corps 6 months old... Myself,(pve wise) fighting a BS, not much diff, cruiser size, a few more missles, frigs a lot more but thats what drone are for, yes you need to train drones too... (PVP wise) well not much to say here. Having been here for a little time i noticed caldari pilots whining about missles does nothing, if you want to use missles you have to adapt to the new systems, thats all there is to it, target painters, drones etc... I will not say i am happy with all the changes but what can ya do? Train more and move along, missles will still be your friends
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:03:00 -
[109]
Originally by: My Sister yes i have drones except drones tend to bring down the whole pocket on you - or they get blown up before you take out many frigs cos they got pocket agro. also dont forget that they have now "rebalanced" med drones against frigate sized targets. drones are not the anser to all missle vs frig problems
Interesting. I fly a ship where 50% (or more, depending on setup) of the damage output comes from drones. I don't have any of the problems you describe…
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:38:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: My Sister yes i have drones except drones tend to bring down the whole pocket on you - or they get blown up before you take out many frigs cos they got pocket agro. also dont forget that they have now "rebalanced" med drones against frigate sized targets. drones are not the anser to all missle vs frig problems
Interesting. I fly a ship where 50% (or more, depending on setup) of the damage output comes from drones. I don't have any of the problems you describeà
That's strange. I've had the same problem. Drones can draw aggro from some groups in missions. And LOL if your caldari relying on drones for PVP.
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Sinder Ohm
Demonic Corp G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:40:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Sinder Ohm on 12/11/2008 18:43:41 nope nerf was needed cos all of our ships are slow as **** now
edit: my vaga was hit very hard but I dont feel the need to whine about it, as said before adapt I know I will (somehow), try using a tp on your target, use light drones for frigs like they were meant to be. |
Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:51:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien That's strange. I've had the same problem. Drones can draw aggro from some groups in missions.
Yes. Drones can draw aggro. No. It isn't a problem.
Quote: And LOL if your caldari relying on drones for PVP.
Being Caldari ≠ flying Caldari. LOL if you're that narrowminded.
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Dee Caffari
Big S Triangle
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:54:00 -
[113]
Don't know about other missiles and in other situations but cruise missiles are now more or less useless in ranged PvP.
Comparing long range turret PvP BS against long range PvP BS with missiles (ie the Raven)
Negative aspects of missiles: - Missile travel time - No equivalent of tracking computers or enhancers (no, Target Painters are not analogous) - Only 1 tier of launcher per missile type
These were the pre-existing down sides and limited the cruise Raven to the niche, but useful, role of anti HAC/Recon BS when fighting at long range.
With the latest patch: - Cannot effectively hit anything other than BS moving full speed in a straight line (n.b. all turrets can do this as long as the angular velocity is not too high)
This has made the cruise raven pretty much useless as far as I can see; there is no way to slow an enemy at the distances long ranged BS often fight and there is no module you can use to increase explosion velocity.
I don't particularly mind them nerfing missiles but if they will not undo the change please release low and mid slot modules that increase explosion velocity: this would not affect many mission runners (as they would not be able to sacrifice tank to fit the modules) but would allow the raven to once again operate alongside other long range BS in PvP engagements.
Oh, in the interests of balance:
Advantages of cruise BS vs turret BS: - Generally higher raw DPS at ranges over around 150km or so (although in practice missile travel time more than negates this)
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:56:00 -
[114]
Damn, I should have anticipated this whine and built a bunch of NightHawks... ------------------------------------------
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:59:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Dee Caffari Negative aspects of missiles: - Only 1 tier of launcher per missile type
Works the other way as well: no need to train a ton of prerequisites to get to the stuff you want (especially T2 stuff).
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Kransthow
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:00:00 -
[116]
*popcorn*
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:07:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Goyda
yeah but a RL BS, would one shot a destroyer. :)
True, but a RL BS wouldn't be bothering to fire at destroyers anyway since they used to be screen keeping away the torpedo boats that could sink a battleship.
Imagine what a mess things would be if CCP introduced the equivalent of torpedo boats.. tiny ships that battleships can't even target that carry enough firepower to potentially sink a capital ship with only a few hits.
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Dee Caffari
Big S Triangle
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:08:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Tippia Works the other way as well: no need to train a ton of prerequisites to get to the stuff you want (especially T2 stuff).
In practice the benefits from this are short lived (any half way competent missile user will want to train the supporting skills) and in the long run it is a hindrance (it is easier to cross train two types of turret than missiles and then another weapons system).
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:12:00 -
[119]
Originally by: My Sister when my faction cruises do 11.2 dmg to a frig and all seven of em cant even break the tank of an average frig.... thats not cool. cant wait to come accross a dire version or an elite fed frig thats gunna be fun.
You do realize that turret BSes generally did ZERO damage to frigates? The fact that cruise missiles did anything to such small ships was unbalanced.
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Chompy
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:13:00 -
[120]
Are you kidding, my Cerb still rocks, some of you people are crazy
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:39:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Klyde Having been here for a little time i noticed caldari pilots whining about missles does nothing, if you want to use missles you have to adapt to the new systems, thats all there is to it, target painters, drones etc... I will not say i am happy with all the changes but what can ya do? Train more and move along, missles will still be your friends
Well, I'm one of < 6 month raven pilots you mention; I partly agree and partly not. I am actually already trained for target painters, and have some fitted; they seem more useful now, but they sucked before the patch so you can't blame a lot of ppl for not bothering.
Meantime, the 'guided missile precision' skill is now a complete waste of time (rather like target painting used to be, maybe) and I'm not too sure about 'target navigation prediction' either. I know turret users have their own problems; but people are told to specialize in Eve, and quite a lot decided to specialize in missiles, drones and shields - so the typical Raven pilot has seen a biggish nerf to both their cruise missiles and their medium drones, as well to their ship speed, which was hardly zippy to begin with.
This isn't a moan, but I'm unimpressed by a lot of the 'u Raven pilots had it easy' comments. To be effective in PvE (read: to make any serious money without mining) you needed 3 Ballistic Control Systems in the lows, just as turret users need their damage mods. Upside was that missile users don't care about tracking disruptors (yay) downside was defender missiles, slowish rates of fire, and most of all the fact that missile damage isn't instant like other kinds. Committing to missiles also meant needing a very solid tank because you take more incoming DPS from every enemy ship, and the long cycle times mean it takes longer to pop and switch to the next target.
No dispute that Raven PvE pilots had an advantage pre-QR, but it wasn't a free ride at all.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:41:00 -
[122]
Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Me and a mate did three level 4's all within the 15 minute bounty timer as well, okay they weren't the hardest available by any stretch, they seemed easier if anything. He was in a raven shield boosting my night hawk (with drones) and I was carrying heavy missiles and a target painter. Easy, fun and enjoyable.
I'm guessing if you want missiles to "work" again, take a friend along and work with them as a team. I believe this method could work in pvp as well, but I don't really do that.
This game has actually got more interesting, so thanks CCP - if you want to boost missiles a bit further of course then so be it, but I believe it's spot on.
-------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better.
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rofflesausage
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:07:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Probably because that's where missiles had their strength.
They were already underused in PvP pre-QR for good reasons, now they are even worse. You only need to look at the Stealth Bomber to see this....
So in one foul swoop you've made them worse at both aspects. And that's coming from a blaster user.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:02:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Me and a mate did three level 4's all within the 15 minute bounty timer as well, okay they weren't the hardest available by any stretch, they seemed easier if anything. He was in a raven shield boosting my night hawk (with drones) and I was carrying heavy missiles and a target painter. Easy, fun and enjoyable.
I'm guessing if you want missiles to "work" again, take a friend along and work with them as a team. I believe this method could work in pvp as well, but I don't really do that.
This game has actually got more interesting, so thanks CCP - if you want to boost missiles a bit further of course then so be it, but I believe it's spot on.
Wait, so shoving more people into a situation makes the game more interesting? I thought we were moving away from that behavior .
CCP: Missiles are broken and we're just waiting for a fix.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:15:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Depopulo It sucks..just went ratting in my Torp Raven....
1.The raven speed has been nerfed...the NPC BS's go faster than me now... 2.The explosion velocity on my torp is now about 99 m/sec..the NPC BS travels at about 139 m/sec...
Which means the explosion on a torp is to slow to do full damage(put NPC resistance aside atm) on a huge ass BS.
I have Target Nav Prediction trained to 4..even at 5 it will still be nerfed.
I just ratted with my torp raven as well to test out the changes. Using 1 TP (Don't even have signature focusing trained at all) and t1 torps I had no issues blowing through BS spawns (might have taken an extra salvo per rat at most) and still hit cruiser spawns just fine. Drones popped frigs fast as they have always done.
I was also using named torp launchers so my torp spec lvl 4 DPS boost was not utilized.
Basically without changing my fit AT ALL, I noticed almost no difference from pre-patch performance. Maybe it's just me though? If anything I can now clear belts very fast instead of insanely fast - considering I could clear belts faster than things respawned anyway - this patch doesn't seem like it will impact my ratting efficiency in the least bit.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:28:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Most likely. I still find them doable, but quite a bit slower (maybe 40%?). I think the complaints are not because it was super-easy before and now it's impossibly hard, but because the Raven in particular had a sweet spot where DPS output was pretty well balanced with tankability - this isn't so important vs. belt rats, but in a solo L4 mission you're looking at some huge spawns. Since missile kills are now taking quite a bit longer, the ship is slower, and you can't just launch 5 medium drones, there's a lot more incoming DPS to tank.
Fitting 2x target painters helps a lot but obviously that comes with a stiff price for tanking. Vs. Battleships it's not so bad as their torpedoes or cruise missiles are less effective than before, but a mass of frigates and cruisers is now much more of a hassle than before.
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Stunna Shade
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:36:00 -
[127]
yes, i cant run my lvl 4 missions in my torp raven being semi-afk !!! I actually have to play ! I HATE THIS PATCH !
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Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:37:00 -
[128]
they only went as far with fixing missiles as they went with fixing speed. Seems like fun to me =)
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Korovyov
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:40:00 -
[129]
TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters. --=--=-- train exhumers to 5 --=--=--
i see what you did here |
Renee Alexis
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:41:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
AND!
^_^ _____________________________________
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Blondieonsum
Servant's of order
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:47:00 -
[131]
Me in a raven, my buddy in a raven, my alt in a logistics. 2 level 5 mission no problems. 130 k lp's between 2 :) my orge 2's are popping small frigs, my cruise are killing everything. Maybe a little slower on cruisers now but meh. I see no real unbalance lol we had it easy before :P Work on your missile skills is all. Stop crying Adapt!
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:52:00 -
[132]
My personal oppinion is that the guy who is responsible for the missile nerf must have been a new dev, a guy recruited from the community that was playing gallente and hated caldaris and their missiles. In this nerf he simply enforced his aversion against missiles, without having the look on the overall situation and without actually caring about the wellbeing of the game.
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Turin
Caldari Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:03:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 12/11/2008 08:04:47 In general i am finding drakes to out perform ravens in most cases. they can tank about the same and the dps is higher on smaller ships( on frigates as much as 6 times)
actually, drakes have higher DPS against battleships now as well, compared to the raven. This is simply wrong.
I believe CCP went to far.
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Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:14:00 -
[134]
I generally agree with the changes to missiles, as it brings them more in-line with other weapon systems. The Raven is no longer king of lv. 4s, but it doesn't take long to cross-train a Domi for mindless mission grinding.
My only criticism would be that they should have added a midslot module to increase explosion velocity / decrease explosion radius. This would fulfill a function similar to a tracking computer, which missile users need but currently have no counterpart for. ---
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:24:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 01:26:58
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba My personal oppinion is that the guy who is responsible for the missile nerf must have been a new dev, a guy recruited from the community that was playing gallente and hated caldaris and their missiles. In this nerf he simply enforced his aversion against missiles, without having the look on the overall situation and without actually caring about the wellbeing of the game.
It is precisely Gallente which aside from their droneboats (and non-blaster fit naturally, ACs/lasers/nos/neut are all much better options) are completely useless post patch.
The worst hit ships are really medium blasters. I found it incredibly trivial to kill med blaster ships on SISI in preety much anything at all, and the only way they had any hope were ECM drones. Huge web nerf + MWD nerf in short range via scrams + huge 400% web nerf completely kills med blaster platforms.
I would make a similar argument about smalls vs same size ships tbh.
All med turrets lost the ability to hit interceptors completely. Medium drones got nerfed vs smaller targets. Ships relying on keeping a target in a very short optimal have been seriously nerfed.
On the other hand, it is not possible anymore to completely mitigate missile DPS via speed.
The reason for the missile nerf, ofc, is because missiles were pwning everything on SISI, while guns were totally absurd crap. Now guns are crap and missiles are crap too (except v same size + targets).
I hate this patch. But pretending that it nerfed missiles specifically is absurd.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:26:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Demonic Sentiment on 13/11/2008 01:26:00 My Idea
my answer to helping balance missiles some w/o another complete redo..
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Aryen Striker
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:45:00 -
[137]
I think the missiles need to be looked at .......
I don't use them and I don't do missions but just had a battle with a Raven and it wasn't a fair fight .....
Raven firing at a Devoter =
He was killed and I still had 81% shields (and I armor tank)
01:09:18 Combat Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to ****** hits you, doing 12.6 damage.
I want a good fight not point and click.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 02:04:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 02:04:59 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 02:04:19
Originally by: Aryen Striker I think the missiles need to be looked at .......
I don't use them and I don't do missions but just had a battle with a Raven and it wasn't a fair fight .....
Raven firing at a Devoter =
He was killed and I still had 81% shields (and I armor tank)
01:09:18 Combat Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to ****** hits you, doing 12.6 damage.
I want a good fight not point and click.
Outcome would be 100% the same if you fought a blaster mega or any non-neuting in webrange BS really. At best they could compete which one would damage more of your shields, and I'm betting its the Raven.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:47:00 -
[139]
Nonsense, other BS have bigger drone bays and more bandwith then caldari overall.
Turret users can fit more types of turrets and go for higher tracking with less dps or for low tracking with high dps. Turrets benefit from the speed nerf, missiles didnt, because they got overnerved.
1: all turrets became better due to the speed nerf. 2: missiles got nerved.
add 1 and 2 and you get a VERY bad situation in balance.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:48:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I haven't had much difficulty.
same.
did a few missions, shot a few corp mates.
seems fine so far. Ive not tested any heavy missiles yet however.
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Karlen Velro
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:20:00 -
[141]
ive got a Vaga alt and a mission running CNR pilot ("show me the iskies!") and what ive realised is that we;ve been back in game for 2 days so CALM THE **** DOWN!!!! . Yes these are large changes and your current set up may suck a giant assickle but try something new, bring a friend along, use target painters, fit heavies on a raven (ok maybe not). all i can say is i hope most of the people here on this thread dont take problems in RL as they do with interenet spaceships, if things dont go ur way adapt and try to move on, or at least try to do that before jumping on the forums to ride CCP for changes that a huge portion of the community have been calling for since the fall of Rome.
THought for the day: If life gives u lemons, make lemonade. If life keeps giving u lemons, find someone whos life has given them vodka and lets have a party.
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Lord EmBra
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:26:00 -
[142]
Why are missile users always the ones who whine?
You got rid of Nanos and now you have found something else to complain about.
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Ohmy Fugod
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:55:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Lord EmBra Why are missile users always the ones who whine?
You got rid of Nanos and now you have found something else to complain about.
Actually, if missile users are mostly mission runners, please explain how come somebody would complain about a ship setup they never ever came across.
A ha! That's right, anti-nano people weren't PvE'rs, but actually crappy PVP'ers. Thing is, nano users are so bitter they just won't admit it, and will use every possible opportunity to gloat at all of these guys' problems, yelling at them the same thing they'll have to do now: Adapt or die. And, wow, check this out, nanof*gs, curiously enough, wanted easy PVP, yet they blame on missile users the fact of wanting easy PVE.
Bottom line: If you look at it thouroughly, you'll see that it's nano users actually the ones they're whining and cringing the most. They just won't do it directly, cause after so much time of hating people who complained (righteously or not), they just can't do it directly, so have to resort to insults and aggression towards anyone else not happy with this patch's results.
Cheers. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Quod Natura non dat, Salmantica non praesta |
Karlen Velro
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:23:00 -
[144]
*facepalm*
we've moved onto whinging about people who were whinging about the original whine, and seemingly starting a compition about who whines loudest.
surely the best thing to do is discuss changes and suggest ways u can work around it, or even suggestions to ccp ways to balance it. i know some people have done that but definatly not in the majority
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Cyan Blackadder
CBI
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:47:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Terianna Eri I tried shooting a drake in a thorax today, turned on MWD and burnt right at it. Three volleys of precision scourge put me into 75% armor, turning off the MWD didn't so much help.
Let me see, Thorax has 1905 shield HP, 47.2% kinetic res with a Damage Control II activated so around 2800 effective HP/21 missiles = 133 damage per missile.
In theory, if you had an afterburner activated, the damage per missile would be around 25 per missile.
There you go.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:22:00 -
[146]
I believe they went overboard, just a little. It's nice that we now hit things, but I would rather not hit certain things than do crap damage across the board. Maybe give us back our damage and give a better use for defender missiles because now not having defenders is even better than before because missiles do so little damage to things it's not even laughable to have them trained, just pathetic.
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Tsual
Minmatar Iikhelahii khulemah'lal
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:48:00 -
[147]
Originally by: My Sister when my faction cruises do 11.2 dmg to a frig and all seven of em cant even break the tank of an average frig.... thats not cool. cant wait to come accross a dire version or an elite fed frig thats gunna be fun.
What damage/missile type against what frigat?
******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
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Elena Morin'staal
Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:57:00 -
[148]
In some of my other ships, I've had a lot of trouble doing damage to frigates with my medium and heavy projectile turrets.
Now, it would appear that the larger missiles have problems damaging small ships.
Is this right? I thought you were meant to use the right weapon for the right class - small weapons against small ships, medium against medium and large against large.
So why would missiles be different?
I've yet to run a mission since patch (fallout 3) so I have no idea, but it looks to me like missile sizes are now brought into line with turret sizes.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:18:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
You mean those medium blasters that have no issue popping frigates in missions?
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:22:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Lord EmBra Why are missile users always the ones who whine?
You got rid of Nanos and now you have found something else to complain about.
May I refer you to a multitude of whines from projectile users and blaster users? And I notice that Amarr pilots are keeping pretty quiet right now, but go back a year and there were more Amarrr whines than there is tea in China. And and the drone guys are starting to powerup the Whine-O-tron as well.#
In conclusion: the world's problems are your fault.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:45:00 -
[151]
TBH we saw the same complaints the first time the missile combat system was changed. (Actually, the same can be said for the turret combat system.)
You are going to have to accept the fact that after a major re balancing you WILL have to change your setups and tactics to achieve an acceptable result. That goes for missile use in PVP or in PVE. If they worked exactly the same, and the re balancing had not effect, then what would be the point?
Drone ARE your friend when you are in a missile battleship. Its a secondary weapons system that is there for a reason, to deal with the small fry. They serve the same function for missile battleships that they serve for turret battleships, that being to deal with the ships that your primary (large) weapon system cannot hit effectively.
Target painters also now give you a much bigger bang for your buck and if your set up doesn't include them, I would suggest trying before you get too carried away.
Mission runners, just start experimenting with tweaking your setups. Start using target painters, start gaining skill with your secondary weapons systems, start fine tuning your defenses based on having to devote a mid-slot or two for offensive purposes. It won't take long until you find a mix that works well for you, although you may have to pay more attention and change your tactics a bit. We are still in the inevitable post-patch "adjustment phase".
Bonus Trivia: Did you know that when level 4 missions came out they were intended to promote teamwork, and were "supposed" to require a small group to finish them? This didn't last long because of:
A: The outcry that there was (at that time) no safe way to distribute the status, or bonus rewards to a group. B: Pimped missile ships negated the need for more people to tag along and take a share of the loot, etc.
Perhaps we will now get back to small teams working level 4's, unless you are in a very expensive ship specifically pimped out to deal with them. I don't find this a bad thing.
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Phenomena X
Galactic PeaceMaking Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:58:00 -
[152]
LMAO!! Another missile thread.
Man I'm loving every single post about it! CRY! CRY! CRY SOME MORE!!
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
As the saying goes; You made your bed, now sleep in it.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:03:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Aryen Striker I think the missiles need to be looked at .......
I don't use them and I don't do missions but just had a battle with a Raven and it wasn't a fair fight .....
Raven firing at a Devoter =
He was killed and I still had 81% shields (and I armor tank)
01:09:18 Combat Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to ****** hits you, doing 12.6 damage.
I want a good fight not point and click.
That one Raven pilot doesn't know how to fit his ship doesn't prove much..... Neut... Painter... Web.... ?
Besides: "The Battleship isn't, nor was it ever intended to be, a solo wtfpwnmobile"... A battleship is a FLEET ship, but requires support ships as it can't defend properly against smaller ships. This is how it should be! If it was otherwise, EVE would be a less varied place as the smaller ships wouldn't be used.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:08:00 -
[154]
Hai guys! Guys! I finally found a real good torp raven PVP fit! It- no. NO! WHY!?
That is to say, I am not a fan of the recent changes.
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Aruken Marr
Gallente Hephaestus Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:13:00 -
[155]
Nice to see that battleship missile sizes are balanced along with all other large weapons. Sorry but this is a balance not a nerf, as soon as you guys can see that the better. Id be happy if my large blasters could hit orbiting frigates for minimal damage i.e tracking speed.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:13:00 -
[156]
I don't.
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Jantix
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:14:00 -
[157]
Missile changes look fine to me.
Amusing how many people are just ignorant.. Maybe they should try running a mission in something other than a Raven/CNR/Golem. Then come back and complain.
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Serinao
Caldari TYR.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:15:00 -
[158]
i wish it was an balance just spent 5 minutes shooting an frigate at 11km with an target painter on it.
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Serinao
Caldari TYR.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:16:00 -
[159]
oh and it was an drake using light, asault missiles.
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Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:21:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Serinao i wish it was an balance just spent 5 minutes shooting an frigate at 11km with an target painter on it.
use drones???
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:54:00 -
[161]
Most the missile changes aren't too terrible, but the way they nerfed Javelin HAMs was just OTT IMO. They basically used to be worse versions of Heavy Missiles (less dps, less alpha, speed penalties, lower explosion velocity, same range) but with 30km range now (instead of the 80 before) and absolutely horrible damage they're barely even worth carrying now
Basically imagine if Scorch didn't have it's +50% range anymore and was just Standard with ever-so-slightly more damage.
To think I'd just trained for a Sacrilege...
- Infectious - |
RInama Sent
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:34:00 -
[162]
Edited by: RInama Sent on 13/11/2008 17:35:49 OK i have quite a few points to make.
First I'm quite upset at most missile users why didn't you speak up during testing its way easier to change things and CCP listens better during testing.
Secondly a few reasons why the changes are to much, though not catastrophic:
Cruise have a damage reduction vs other bs after skills....??? Citadels do less than 250 DPS to a carrier...??? (this is the biggest over nerf i my opinion as capital speeds didn't change) True you can fit a TP but the range is a bit limiting I mean its basically a laser it should have a practically unlimited range in a near vacuum
On the PVE side even a golem with precision bonuses and buffed TP is talking more time, in fact twice as long to kill bc (2 volleys as opposed to 1)
A few comments on what others have said.
Originally by: Kerfira
....A battleship is a FLEET ship....,
Funny you should say this i believe this is where a raven was hit the hardest. In a fleet fight a raven can not realistically shoot BS. They are dead before the fist volley gets halfway their. The ravens job and the only one is could do was shoot cruisers. And saying to fit a TP dosent work because my fit already had 2x TP i will be fitting a third but it wont be close to making up the difference. Also all the other tools for disabling cruisers (neutralizers, webs, drones)don't work at 50+km that fleet fights take place at, at a minimum.
Originally by: Aruken Marr Nice to see that battleship missile sizes are balanced along with all other large weapons. Sorry but this is a balance not a nerf, as soon as you guys can see that the better. Id be happy if my large blasters could hit orbiting frigates for minimal damage i.e tracking speed.
This is a quite common comment and to you good sir(and others with similar thoughts) i replay this indeed would be a balance i would be in full agreement with you if missiles hit instantly. They don't so shooting BS doesn't work if their was any sort of delay for turrets (as their should be realistically) i might even agree. Evin if turrets had a standard projectile speed and took 1-2 seconds this would be balanced.
As a final comment if missiles were overpowered before why was none talking about it? If not then as i understood this missiles were being nerfed proportionally to the speed change so that should retain the same effectiveness. How can this be when i am doing less than 20% of the damage i used to do to other capitals in my phoenix?
Edit spelling 249.99 KM Locking? AF MK II |
John Duster
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:39:00 -
[163]
It's utter crap CCP went way to far with CRUISE Missles and here's why.
#1 Cruise missles no longer even deal full damage to other BS's. CCP specifically stated they wanted weapons to be excellent at thier own class size.
#2 L1 missions are for frigs to solo, L2 are for dessies and cruisers, L3 are for Cruisers and BC's and L4's are BC and BS... only its way harder to solo a l4 in a bs Now you almost better in a BC.
Not only is the cruise missile nerf a a nerf to cruise missiles it also nerfs caldari's ability to do l4.
oh and they are of course completely useless in pvp pushing the pvp - pve fitting gap farther apart. this was a genuine fail patch and I wont be buying an alt after all.
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Terraform
Gallente Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:49:00 -
[164]
*snicker*
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Juzo
Caldari Retribution Enterprises Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:52:00 -
[165]
Hrm it seems to me that all CCP did was make missiles and blasters suck as much as lasers and projectiles.
(it should be noted I have yet to test in game yet and I use missles and blasters on all my chars:( ) JGE
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Mallikan
Gallente Plundering Penguins Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:54:00 -
[166]
Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
--- For great justice. Or something.
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Zackalwe
Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 18:21:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Zackalwe on 13/11/2008 18:23:05 Couple of counter points for you to think about:
Originally by: RInama Sent
Originally by: Kerfira
....A battleship is a FLEET ship....,
Funny you should say this i believe this is where a raven was hit the hardest. In a fleet fight a raven can not realistically shoot BS. They are dead before the fist volley gets halfway their. The ravens job and the only one is could do was shoot cruisers. And saying to fit a TP dosent work because my fit already had 2x TP i will be fitting a third but it wont be close to making up the difference. Also all the other tools for disabling cruisers (neutralizers, webs, drones)don't work at 50+km that fleet fights take place at, at a minimum.
Not all battleships are fleetships. The Domi isnt, the Raven isnt and neither is the Maelstrom realistically. Caldari have two fleet ships the Rokh (One of THE best fleet snipers) and the Scorpion (The only EWAR BS). Missiles were never good in fleet fights, I suggest the Rohk or Scorpion for your fleet work.
However there are plenty of cases of Ravens being utilised extremely well in general PvP. Check the old Burn Eden killboard for examples.
Originally by: RInama Sent
Originally by: Aruken Marr Nice to see that battleship missile sizes are balanced along with all other large weapons. Sorry but this is a balance not a nerf, as soon as you guys can see that the better. Id be happy if my large blasters could hit orbiting frigates for minimal damage i.e tracking speed.
This is a quite common comment and to you good sir(and others with similar thoughts) i replay this indeed would be a balance i would be in full agreement with you if missiles hit instantly. They don't so shooting BS doesn't work if their was any sort of delay for turrets (as their should be realistically) i might even agree. Evin if turrets had a standard projectile speed and took 1-2 seconds this would be balanced.
Travel time for missiles dont make any realistic difference in PvE. So in PvE they truly are balanced with respect to the other races battleships now. No other races BSs can rely on BS sized weapons to kill frigs.
Or are you trying to use a raven in a standoff fleet fight again? I am Gallente and trained up a shedload of drone skills early on. But didnt moan when I learnt that to be effective in a fleet I needed to train large rails. I just went and did it. Its the way it is. Droneships and missileships dont work in fleets, this is NOT a new thing...
Originally by: RInama Sent
As a final comment if missiles were overpowered before why was none talking about it? If not then as i understood this missiles were being nerfed proportionally to the speed change so that should retain the same effectiveness. How can this be when i am doing less than 20% of the damage i used to do to other capitals in my phoenix? Edit spelling
In PvE missiles were in fact overpowered. You must have missed all the threads. Or the fact that all professional mission-runners used CNRs. As for capitals, perhaps you have a point, if the 20 percent figure is accurate. Its possible the capital missile formula needs looking at. I would however like this verified and will be asking around in alliance this evening.
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Turin
Caldari Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 18:23:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Mallikan Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.13 19:26:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Mallikan Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
Its not, the system is more broken now than it ever was. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.13 19:49:00 -
[170]
Depending which character I am using, my prefered ships for killing NPCs are the Apoc, Domi and Nighthawk, with occasional use of the Raven and Drake.
Nighthawk works fine, Apoc works fine. Have not tried the Domi recently, but I'm sure it will be fine.
Cruise/torp Raven should be better vs Battleships, otherwise fine. (a cruise/torp raven without drones should be in trouble against fast frigs....)
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Sidus
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:20:00 -
[171]
Well I am a pretty trained up Caldari missile hound and I just a completed the lvl 4 silence the informant mission in my Golem and I didn't notice any difference...in fact the mercenary cruisers seemed to melt a lot quicker than usual
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ArmyOfMe
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:26:00 -
[172]
they didnt go far enough
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
Elowynne
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:37:00 -
[173]
To be blunt about this patch...... the game wasn't broken don't fix it
The pilots who flew "ludicrous speed" ships trained long and hard to get where they did and spent a lot of money getting there too, and tbh ludicrous speed only gave you survivability at getting away from gatecamps and was useless in pvp versus heavy neuts and a rapier on your side
CCP: go back to the old pvp mechanics but keep the new content and just add web bubbles as an option for dictors and the whole thing would be sorted instead of EVERYONE having to learn the game all over again WTF !!! and costing a lot of isk to all refitting their ships and doing away with now useless rigs.
Theres a lot of your existing customer base about to leave the game, people who have spent years training up missiles skills navigation etc just to have it all thrown back in their faces.
WEB BUBBLES I TELLS YA !
regards,
elo.
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Threv Echandari
Caldari K Directorate
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:40:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Sig Sour I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.
For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.
Of Course since all the PWNAGE is huge in price low in quantity, might I suggest the PWNT and PWND not the full 30% bounus 28 and 27% but not half million to 1.5 million a pop either (not even close)....and much more widely available.
---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
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Huyai Tsukurit
Caldari First Outside Inside Last
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:01:00 -
[175]
hmm after 15minutes of training and a slight change in my setup I am doing the same damage as before the nerf. me thinks not so terrible as the original nerf.
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:03:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod somebody would complain about a ship setup they never ever came across.
Quite. And in my limited PvP experience, missiles kinda sucked already; almost every fight I've been in has involved incoming turret DPS, and I usually lost. I don't have massive SP, but if missiles were such pwnage as people allege, how come they weren't the first choice of many PvPers?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:05:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/11/2008 02:45:32
I blew through a Level 4 with a Drake a little earlier. Honestly I think heavy missiles are even more effective against BC's and BS's than they used to be. Light drones seem to be doing more damage too although maybe that's my imagination.
The missiles definitely do less damage against small targets though, and the smaller targets seemed to be hitting me pretty hard for their size. But it seems like a fair trade. I don't use BS-sized missiles though except for Bombers and I haven't tested those yet.
Even more effective? Would you like to specify which parameter from the recent expansion, made them more effective? Or you can't, because you're talking out of your ass.. that's right..
I thought you're a PvP player anyway, what are you doing in a drake :P
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Donkee Punch
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:07:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Waah I only care about the missile/speed nerf in as much as it affects my ability to complete missions. If I have to spend a lot more time completing level 4 missions or I have a huge increase in risk of ship lose then I will probably just go and wait for Jumpgate Evolution.
I'm already in the Beta.. it looks rather sweet, and Black Prophecy is another one that looks really sexy as well. That's 2 upcoming Space Based MMORPG's... please CCP, address these concerns before we loose a game that has been the best thing for 5 years now.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:07:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Veldya I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
Really? If, maybe.... what?
You mean your speed will not save you vs. the flight speed of the misile but it surely save you from the explosion velocity. What is your point?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:12:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
To kill AF:
Fit: 1 Web 1 Scram 1 Heavy Neut
Activate all on your target and saute gently. Serve to taste.
I would really like your idea applied to a 17-20km zooming AF without an AB or anything but speed mods.. that deal damage not related to cap, read projectile or turrets.. mhm.. it may possibly not need to even rep your damage..
in any case that will be long enough before the big boys arrive to finish you off and your smart ploy...
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:14:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Sig Sour I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.
For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.
Thank you for your idea to fit a TP, however a ship that outruns your misile explosion even if it's as big as a BS will take little damage (if at all any to be mentioned).. your point?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:15:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Anonymous Troll No, CCP did not go too far with missiles.
Your name sums it up.. :P
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:16:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sig Sour I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.
For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.
Well yeah, 95% of PvE takes place within TP range. A CNR can easily fit one, and they take a few days at most to skill for.
As for PvP... not so sure. But hey I just trained lasers, so I get to mothball my cerb and use a Zealot.
I don't understand Malcanis, if misiles did not see any "big" changes, why are you mothballing your Cerberus and training lasers?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:17:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Megan Maynard Hitting ships that fit a MWD.
Lights to hit frigs. Heavies to hit cruisers or BC. Cruiser or torps for BS
Not that difficult.
Problem comes when cruise/torp misiles cannot hit BSs for anything worth mentioning...
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:18:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Pilot Abilene SO... they brought large missiles back in line with large turrets, what's the problem?
...also what's the deal with all these missile users that don't know how to use drones? lol
Oh and btw, I think its funny as hell that all these people saying they are going to train Amarr now because they seem to think large energy turrets are going to hit small targets any better. Hope you're prepared to train most gunnery skills to 5 and be prepared to still miss a lot of hits vs smaller targets. ^.^
The problem is that Large Turrets do damage to Large targets, Cruise/torps are funny against anything moving at 200m/s out of web range..
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:19:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Suitonia Edited by: Suitonia on 12/11/2008 03:33:39 oh**** I have to fit a web, or a gang mate does just like with turret ships?
You don't even know what you're talking about, do you...
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:21:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Enjoy the nano nerf, Caldari pigs.
Turret tracking got nerfed by 400% in webrange.
I haven't noticed that Bro, have you? Out of all the PvP scenarios since patch i haven't had a missed hit on my large turrets against another BS... quite different picture with misiles..
oh and by the way, about your running your mouth, aren't you the badass pirate that pretends to be so Uber around here? get a tracking comp you moron.. see, i couldn't give this advice to a caldari pilot.. because... THERE IS NO EXPLOSION VELOCITY MODULE...
Rigs are auxiliary for all ships and are not modules :P
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:23:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Soporo
CCP needs to require armor tanking gun ships to lose another low slot in order to do proper damage to the same size ship class, just like shield tankers have to do now.
We lost 3 midslots if we want to get somewhere near old tracking values. Caldari whiners are better off.
You lost 3 midslots what? i wish i can lose 3 low slots to get back to where it was.. but it's not possible is it.. not to mention if you're really failing to track BS size ships within web range you are a poor EvE player :P
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:25:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Terianna Eri I tried shooting a drake in a thorax today, turned on MWD and burnt right at it. Three volleys of precision scourge put me into 75% armor, turning off the MWD didn't so much help.
Not sure what you guys are complaining about, the only things that are actually going to be fitting ABs anyway are frigates and you couldn't kill those before the patch either.
Maybe you shouldn't have burned "right at him" now should you.. :PP and yes if you start from 60km what do you expect? not to mention fighting a Drake in a Thorax.. I assure you the result of a Moa trying to kill a Harbinger would be even worse..
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:27:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Dracthera
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/11/2008 02:45:32
I blew through a Level 4 with a Drake a little earlier. Honestly I think heavy missiles are even more effective against BC's and BS's than they used to be. Light drones seem to be doing more damage too although maybe that's my imagination.
The missiles definitely do less damage against small targets though, and the smaller targets seemed to be hitting me pretty hard for their size. But it seems like a fair trade. I don't use BS-sized missiles though except for Bombers and I haven't tested those yet.
This. Same experience for me today. Ran GE4 in my Drake yesterday as a baseline before the patch. Ran it again today after the patch, and it sure seems like I finished it a lot faster. I'll have to time it tomorrow to see how it comes out. Heavy missiles work awesome against everything.
Yep, maybe Raven's should now come with a button, switch to Drake mode.. that'd be cool, i admit :)
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:28:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sig Sour I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.
For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.
Well yeah, 95% of PvE takes place within TP range. A CNR can easily fit one, and they take a few days at most to skill for.
As for PvP... not so sure. But hey I just trained lasers, so I get to mothball my cerb and use a Zealot.
I don't understand Malcanis, if misiles did not see any "big" changes, why are you mothballing your Cerberus and training lasers?
If it turns out that cerb is not good I have alternatives. Cerb is still as good for ratting as it ever was. Haven't tried CNR yet.
Personally I suspect that Cerb will still be good as a ranged DPS ship in PvP, but right this instant I'm in a pulse ealot and haven't had opportunity to test my cerbs in a fight.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:33:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar What a bummer. I used to enjoy coming home from work to play a nice level four in less than an hour. Now it takes all night. What people are saying about missile ships being inline with other races in PVE is true, but that really only shows how bad EVE PVE already was. Theoretically, in a well balanced game no race should have a particular advantage in PVE, and it should be fun and do-able for all races. But with hordes of smaller ships, and turrets sucking at tracking them, it just became a royal pain in the ass for most ships save the missile ships and the drone ships. Now those are being nerfed.
At some point, EVE should take a serious look at the PVE system and redo it from the ground up so that all races can fly and enjoy relatively profitable PVE. Until then, the minimum they could do is undo this missile nerf.
Here's a person that can stay impartial for ones. I agree with this statement. If devs wanted to put things in line so much how come they are doing it behind the scenes, so much so that the general public doesn't even have a clue? sure they have Sisi, but i doubt even 10% if anything closer to that actually knows about and uses it. Not to mention that it is completely a WAY over the line drastic change.
Most people don't care as they have high SP trained in more than 1 race but majority of newer players do not, and should not be treated as pebbles moved from one place to another just b/c someone had one too many donuts at CCP.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:34:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Suitonia Edited by: Suitonia on 12/11/2008 03:33:39 oh**** I have to fit a web, or a gang mate does just like with turret ships?
You don't even know what you're talking about, do you...
u sure do with your
12 POST CO-CO-CO-COMBO!!!!
at first i was like but then i was like
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:35:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sig Sour I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.
For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.
Well yeah, 95% of PvE takes place within TP range. A CNR can easily fit one, and they take a few days at most to skill for.
As for PvP... not so sure. But hey I just trained lasers, so I get to mothball my cerb and use a Zealot.
I don't understand Malcanis, if misiles did not see any "big" changes, why are you mothballing your Cerberus and training lasers?
If it turns out that cerb is not good I have alternatives. Cerb is still as good for ratting as it ever was. Haven't tried CNR yet.
Personally I suspect that Cerb will still be good as a ranged DPS ship in PvP, but right this instant I'm in a pulse ealot and haven't had opportunity to test my cerbs in a fight.
Well from experience i know that once you get in Amarr ship line you won't look back for a while.. ;)
My point was toward people that do not have 3-4 races trained up.. they just need to live with the changes. And insomuch as i don't care that much.. i can understand and i see the newer players on the forum trying to make their case but meeting a wall of aahahah suck it you pig speed nerfing noob boo..
Which new players really should not have to deal with.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:36:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/11/2008 21:36:13
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Suitonia Edited by: Suitonia on 12/11/2008 03:33:39 oh**** I have to fit a web, or a gang mate does just like with turret ships?
You don't even know what you're talking about, do you...
u sure do with your
12 POST CO-CO-CO-COMBO!!!!
at first i was like but then i was like
So you read it? Thank you very much.. i like replying to everyone's post i read.. :)
PS: Edit, mostly everyone's.. :)
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:37:00 -
[196]
ps, my CNR is still awsome and does l4's just fine.
Train your missile skills and fit a painter (you can still fit a good tank and sacrifice ONE mid), you will do fine.
If that doesn't have you zooming through lvl 4s, then the problem isn't the game, its the user.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:41:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/11/2008 21:42:05 Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/11/2008 21:41:51
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia ps, my CNR is still awsome and does l4's just fine.
Train your missile skills and fit a painter (you can still fit a good tank and sacrifice ONE mid), you will do fine.
If that doesn't have you zooming through lvl 4s, then the problem isn't the game, its the user.
So then you really aren't using Caldari in PvP i gather?
PS: i mean misiles :) PPS: thank you for your lesson on how to run missions..
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ArcDragon
Caldari FUSION INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:51:00 -
[198]
I closely followed the changes to missles during their testing and developement. I also saw the data and graphs posted by the developers for the speed changes.
1) I agree with having a more uniform speed spread. 2) My Raven now goes 94 m/s base from it's previous 115 m/s base. 3) I hate myself.
About missles:
1) Too far, they are not doing enough damage to compete with other weapon systems. 2) I'd hate to be the guy sorting this all out.
I do feel like all I have been working for with training up battleship skills, training up missles and learning various fits for a CNR have been devalued by missles no longer doing their previous damage against various ship sizes/speeds.
The original problem was based upon players going ludicrous speed and I believe they did and should have gotten their spankings, but why should missles also get a severe reduction in damage capabilities (yes, I know it came about due to a relationship between speed and missles)?
I do not buy the "fit a Target Painter" arguement. I don't buy it because other systems do not require an additional module to be on par with other weapons system damage. Let me be more clear, a cruise missle launched against a given target will do an amount of damage. A railgun/energy weapon etc. fired at comperable range will always do more. The BASE level of missle damage has been lowered too much. I should not have to fit a target painter just to keep up with the Jones'es old ray gun.
I am dissapointed that I am now less capable than I was. That is very counter productive to the average Eve player.
Please increase or compensate or tweak in a fashion that will yield more damage.
Thank you.
If it has a SAVE button...I'm not interested. |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:03:00 -
[199]
ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.
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Marak Bon
Parallax Continuum Motivated and Determined
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Posted - 2008.11.14 02:33:00 -
[200]
I havnt noticed a difference in missions/pvp, but then again, i have always used TP drones - gets the sig radius on most ships waaaay up. Especially with the associated skills trained up to l5. Yeah you lose 100 dps or so from not having combat drones, but really with a torp chucking raven hitting at 38km or so for around 1000 dps, do you really need combat drones?
I neither like nor dis-like the changes, they add a little more complexity to my fits(considering adding a web now, as some of those bs's keep running or chasing as the case may be haha.)
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.11.14 03:41:00 -
[201]
I think I'm going to go and post this in al;l the missile whine threads, because TBFH it needs to be said:
Well let's look at the nerfs and some buffs of the last year or so, and see how caldari compares to other races:
Tier II BCs introduced, caldari and gallente both get a BC capable of fielding >BS sized tanks. Nice Buff IMO (though they later get nerfed a bit, they still field awesome tanks)
Nos nerf. Affects everyone but mostly the gallente with their nos Domis.
Drone bandwidth. Gallente get a huge nerf that hits 2 of their best ships (Eos and Myrmi) Required? Of course, but the nerf was over the top. The ishkur also took a beating with this one.
Drone shield recharge nerf. Gallente get hit really hard with this one as recalling/relaunching drones is no longer very viable.
First nano nerf. Nanophoons and nanodomis are no more. Gallente and minmatar get nerfed.
I know at some point the calldari recons got boosted, though I don't remember exactly how Razz If someone can point out the change to me that'd be appreciated.
Resistance nerf. Armor lost some EM, shields lost some explosive, everyone gets nerfed.
Torp Buff. All of a sudden the raven becomes a very viable option in pvp. A raven + a tackler is a dangerous combination when the raven can easily hit >1k DPS
Sensor damps reduced massively in effectiveness (by about 50%) HUGE gallente recon nerf.
Second nano nerf. Many matari (as well as some gallente + amarr) ships become far less useful in pvp.
Those who were paying attention earlier may have noticed that drone boats got nerfed pretty hard a while back. But blaster ships are still viable in pvp!
Oh wait...
Web nerf. Blaster boats do not have the optimal to work without a good web. The web reduction results in a required tracking several times greater then before, and much more then blasters have.
The missile nerf. The raven is no longer the powerhouse of mission running.
I'm pretty sure that caldari have had it easy for quite some time now, it amazes me how quickly people complain the instant CCP changes their PVE boats. You'll get used to it, it's not like you're competing against other people in the mission...
And as far as PvP goes, Torp raven is still awesome, all ECM ships are as well, and I will be soon flying a blasteRokh as it'll be one of the few blaster boats with the range to track targets.
Everyone gets nerfed, the ships are far from useless. There will still be more caldari pilots and caldari raven mission runners then any other race, and the price on CNRs is a hundred freaking mil higher then the navythron...
This is the first nerf felt by mission runners in years, which is why we're seeing so much complaining, eventually they will realize that the sky is not, in fact, falling and we will all resume our normal eve lives. |
Ragnar Darkstar
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Posted - 2008.11.14 04:28:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.14 04:48:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Brea Lafail ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.
And I spotted one!
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CHAOS100
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:03:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?
Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon? can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly? --------------
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Terraform
Gallente Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:17:00 -
[205]
Originally by: CHAOS100
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?
Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon? can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly?
Gee, using wrecking shot as a way to try to "justify" how turrets are supposedly "better" is just lol. Fly a turrent-ship and then you'll see that unlike WoW you can't boost your critical/wrecking hit chance to 25% or more, it stays at 1-2% and you rarely get to see it.
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Ragnar Darkstar
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:34:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Terraform
Originally by: CHAOS100
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?
Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon? can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly?
Gee, using wrecking shot as a way to try to "justify" how turrets are supposedly "better" is just lol. Fly a turrent-ship and then you'll see that unlike WoW you can't boost your critical/wrecking hit chance to 25% or more, it stays at 1-2% and you rarely get to see it.
The point is that you have to take into consideration all the various strengths and weaknesses of weapons systems. Missiles generally are not used in PVP, from what I understand. Most people seem to consider turrets to be more effective. As a trade-off, they were always better in PVE. The posters saying that it is fair to nerf missiles in PVE to bring them inline to turrets are ignoring the unaddressed weaknesses of missiles in PVP. The patch appears to have left missiles inferior in both PVP and PVE. So then, why would you fly a missile ship? I don't think the developers intended a whole class of weapons/ships to be that ineffective. I understand what they were trying to accomplish with the re-balance, but I think they went too far and it needs to be re-adjusted. As it stands now, my Maelstrom is more effective doing damage than my Raven in missions, and Artillery has never been considered to be particularly effective at PVE. Missiles need some kind of adjustment for balance. Either make them as effective at PVP as turrets, or make them more effective at PVE as a tradeoff.
Oh, and since you brought up our favorite mmo besides EVE, I should inform you that my Maelstrom is entirely crewed by Night Elf Rogues.
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Stunna Shade
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:41:00 -
[207]
They fixed missiles.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:46:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 14/11/2008 06:47:55
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
The point is that you have to take into consideration all the various strengths and weaknesses of weapons systems. Missiles generally are not used in PVP, from what I understand. Most people seem to consider turrets to be more effective. As a trade-off, they were always better in PVE. The posters saying that it is fair to nerf missiles in PVE to bring them inline to turrets are ignoring the unaddressed weaknesses of missiles in PVP. The patch appears to have left missiles inferior in both PVP and PVE. So then, why would you fly a missile ship? I don't think the developers intended a whole class of weapons/ships to be that ineffective. I understand what they were trying to accomplish with the re-balance, but I think they went too far and it needs to be re-adjusted. As it stands now, my Maelstrom is more effective doing damage than my Raven in missions, and Artillery has never been considered to be particularly effective at PVE. Missiles need some kind of adjustment for balance. Either make them as effective at PVP as turrets, or make them more effective at PVE as a tradeoff.
Oh, and since you brought up our favorite mmo besides EVE, I should inform you that my Maelstrom is entirely crewed by Night Elf Rogues.
What people were saying was and still is that Cladari ships are not that good for solo pvp. And the reason for that was not the missiles but the fact that shield tank requires mid slots, as the warp jammers and webbers and other modules do.
They were not preferred in large gangs due to the flight time of the missiles, but guess what no drone ships are welcomed either in large fleets (unless it's with sentries) due to the flight time the drones need to reach the target.
Don't believe whatever people are saying in the forums, it's not always true. Lately the impression that many people writing constantly in forums rarely log in the game and actually play it, is growing.
As for PVE I still can't understand why it's impossible for the Caldari ship users to alternate their setups, and gain at least a portion of their former glory.
I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Ragnar Darkstar
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:51:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.
A midslot on a Dominix is less of a sacrifice than a midslot on a Raven. 90% of the problems could be solved with a highslot version of the target painter and maybe some minor tweaks to explosion velocity. Drake/Raven/CNR all have an extra highslot.
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Ackwell
Imperial Pharmacy
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:04:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Goyda Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius. Quote:
Are you basically trying to say that only new players fly small ship classes? At last the small ship lovers get some long waited love. My Vengeances missiles has never been this effective <3. And probably you can fly some smaller ships too? It's about choosing the right one to the right occasion. And for your information all BS's have dronebay for small targets, I wonder why you already fly a BS and don't even have drone skills. What I love about EVE is that you can be an experienced player and still fly small ships and all classes are viable in combat. Now it levels it up even more. Born in Caldari State Raised by Khanid Kingdom Living for Amarr Empire Dying for Imperial Pharmacy |
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:44:00 -
[211]
**** off 45% of the player base? US, caldari are the heart of the capitalist world. Our Battleships dominate the space.
Instead of making a missile defense system, CCP made missiles ineffective in all combat situations.
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Kransthow
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:52:00 -
[212]
adapt or die
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:53:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Kransthow adapt or die
Not to be offensive, but there should be a difference between adapting and training a new race to PvP with.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:55:00 -
[214]
hmm so much people saying missiles suck. this makes me start to believe that they use other missiles than me
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:57:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic hmm so much people saying missiles suck. this makes me start to believe that they use other missiles than me
Cruise are still fine for missions if you are careful and use drones as well.
The problem is in PvP. Stealth bombers are even more worthless now, Heavy-class missile suck versus their intended targets, etc.
And blasters/blaster ships took a major hit.
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Kransthow
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:59:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Vikarion Not to be offensive, but there should be a difference between adapting and training amarr.
fyp
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2008.11.14 08:11:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.
A midslot on a Dominix is less of a sacrifice than a midslot on a Raven. 90% of the problems could be solved with a highslot version of the target painter and maybe some minor tweaks to explosion velocity. Drake/Raven/CNR all have an extra highslot.
Well doooooh. I know what a mid slot means for a raven, maybe you should also try and find out what a low slot means for a Domi. Where Ravens use to put their BCS? and Dominix is using for tanking modules?
You can't have everything mate. That was always the case. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Euriti
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.14 08:54:00 -
[218]
They went too far with the speednerf too.
Adapt, as you said yourself.
There's more to the game than the same ship.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:08:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar A midslot on a Dominix is less of a sacrifice than a midslot on a Raven. 90% of the problems could be solved with a highslot version of the target painter and maybe some minor tweaks to explosion velocity. Drake/Raven/CNR all have an extra highslot.
…that extra slot is where your drone mod goes. It helps a lot too.
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Alexander Nergal
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:26:00 -
[220]
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but, use a nighthawk for missions now. k |
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Lana Lanee
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:27:00 -
[221]
adapt or die
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:31:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Opertone **** off 45% of the player base? US, caldari are the heart of the capitalist world. Our Battleships dominate the space.
Instead of making a missile defense system, CCP made missiles ineffective in all combat situations.
I'm Caldari and I think this patch is brilliant.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:32:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.
A midslot on a Dominix is less of a sacrifice than a midslot on a Raven. 90% of the problems could be solved with a highslot version of the target painter and maybe some minor tweaks to explosion velocity. Drake/Raven/CNR all have an extra highslot.
Well doooooh. I know what a mid slot means for a raven, maybe you should also try and find out what a low slot means for a Domi. Where Ravens use to put their BCS? and Dominix is using for tanking modules?
You can't have everything mate. That was always the case.
Domi only has 6 low slots c/d?
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:40:00 -
[224]
Quote: Cruise are still fine for missions if you are careful and use drones as well.
The problem is in PvP. Stealth bombers are even more worthless now, Heavy-class missile suck versus their intended targets, etc.
And blasters/blaster ships took a major hit.
This. Needs tweaking.
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Veliah Truard
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:53:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.
A midslot on a Dominix is less of a sacrifice than a midslot on a Raven. 90% of the problems could be solved with a highslot version of the target painter and maybe some minor tweaks to explosion velocity. Drake/Raven/CNR all have an extra highslot.
Well doooooh. I know what a mid slot means for a raven, maybe you should also try and find out what a low slot means for a Domi. Where Ravens use to put their BCS? and Dominix is using for tanking modules?
You can't have everything mate. That was always the case.
Yeah, I have to agree, as a fellow Domi pilot, that the changes haven't really messed with me that bad, my defualt load out always was 1 wing of T2 lights, 2 wings of T2 mediums, and 2 wings of T2 heavies anyway, and with a little micromanaging, I found drones just as, if not more effective than before, T2 light scouts, which I always felt were underpowered, now seeme to have a lot more purpose, along with alot more oomph, though I admit, I'll miss watching my T2 heavies blast PVE AF's with impunity, but I'll get over it. And seeing as all my damage is drone based (highslots I reserve for tractors and salvagers when PVE), I can't complain. As far as the missiles go, I can't give much personal opinion, but plenty of my corp members seem to have found ways around the missile changes, but what I see in all this, is it's going to put a more deffinate emphasis on the importance of smaller craft in engagements, be they PVP or PVE, whichis alright with me, in the past, so many PVP fights I've experianced were 5-10 BC-BS sized vessels, either totally decimating smaller craft, or slugging it out with the larger for hours on end if both sides were well trained. Whereas now, the value of having a single properly built backline support frigate is going to skyrocket, adding huge dynamics to fleet engagements, and the balance of fleet power no longer residing on the heavier ships alone.
Personal opinion only, of course.
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Diziet Montoya
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:00:00 -
[226]
Normal cruise raven is working fine for me, without even bothering with target painter. You whiners must have not trained any missile support skills whatsoever, either that or you are sitting there for half an hour shooting torps at frigates and wondering why it won't die. Also notice t2 ammo got BUFFED.
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Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:01:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Una D on 14/11/2008 10:06:13 I actually like the new changes. Sure it does demand a TP or web for missions (and yes I find it as annoying as you do) but I have 3 pure caldari chars with missiles only (my way of RP) so I really like the part where I can actually hit a nano ship for a damage that is above 0.
The good thing with change is that it moves the missile missioning up in needed support skills (both tanking and missile) as to be comperable with turret ships. While I can see that many people don't like it (my mission alt is old enough to have most of it at V anyway) it does bring missiles a bit more inline with the turrets and that is probably not a bad thing.
Finally it might help with the perception that you can only have tank in mids when flying caldari. (maximum tank is not always the best use of the slots).
Edit: PS I forgot about SBs. There I agree that it looks like they got shafted. On the other hand it might only mean that manticore will have 1 TP 1 damp instead of 2 damps. Since ZOMG huge sig radius is enough to get at least 50% damage a few of them should still be quite effective even against smaller ships.
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Elena Morin'staal
Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:35:00 -
[228]
Ran a decent level 3 last night after the patch in my Drake, after taking forum advice to fit a painter to the ship. Fit a best named at the loss of 1 of the two Invul's.
Ended up doing better against cruisers and BC's than I did before, so at least for level 3 missions/drake the so called "nerf" doesn't seem to be too bad.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:39:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/11/2008 10:39:44 Missiles in PVP are, in general, far more effective than before.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:43:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/11/2008 10:39:44 Missiles in PVP are, in general, far more effective than before.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:58:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/11/2008 10:39:44 Missiles in PVP are, in general, far more effective than before.
When supported by the correct modules, missiles effect their intended target marginally better than before. Heaven forbid a missile user should now have to sacrifice a tanking slot for more damage eh?
You just don't get these stupid instances of over sized missiles popping smaller ships.
The only 'good' PvP'ers I have seen moaning about these changes are the ones who based alot of their combat tactics around using missile boats as anti-support platforms. Then again they were they same people who used to run the damp-wcs-raven so no sympathy there
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LordSwift
INTERSTELLAR ENTERPRISE StarFleet Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:01:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Kransthow adapt or die
Not to be offensive, but there should be a difference between adapting and training a new race to PvP with.
Oh really. I am caldari and got this pvp kill fine with my friends Linkage
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LordSwift
INTERSTELLAR ENTERPRISE StarFleet Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:03:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic hmm so much people saying missiles suck. this makes me start to believe that they use other missiles than me
Cruise are still fine for missions if you are careful and use drones as well.
The problem is in PvP. Stealth bombers are even more worthless now, Heavy-class missile suck versus their intended targets, etc.
And blasters/blaster ships took a major hit.
Says you
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Gealbhan
Caldari Infernal Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:06:00 -
[234]
HAHA!
The beauty of being omni-trained. For CCP to actually hurt my char they'd have to nerf everything and...(catches himself in mid sentence)... nevermind.
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SCHLAMPEvomDIENST
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:21:00 -
[235]
I am only playing for 6 months, but what they have done with missiles is just crazy. If you want to take missiles out of the game CCP, just remove them and dont nerf them!!!
But we still trust in you CCP, there will be a next patch and everyone get a second chance. If u wont fix it back, give all caldari missile skills away!!
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Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:55:00 -
[236]
ok well i have answered this thread earlyer.. and whined alot.. but now that i have been useing my missiles more i guess the nerf isnt that bad.. but it would be very nice if missiles got a mid slot mod for explosion velocity...
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C4LYP50
The Sky Is The Limit
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:59:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
My point was toward people that do not have 3-4 races trained up.. they just need to live with the changes. And insomuch as i don't care that much.. i can understand and i see the newer players on the forum trying to make their case but meeting a wall of aahahah suck it you pig speed nerfing noob boo..
Which new players really should not have to deal with.
This.
Having perused and commented in a few threads on this topic, I'd just like to say thank you. Most newer players who actually read these forums watched with half interest the nano flame wars, and what could be less interesting to fulltime PVE'ers trying to build a stake to join in PVP than nano, as we never deal with it, and have no experience with it, and hence, no opinion to offer?
Yet here we find ourselves branded "Those Ebil, Nano-Nerfing, Whining Carebears" by those recipients of the speed nerf, which was brought about by their own adverseries (other PVP'ers). How does the blame get transferred like this, and then used to justify another nerf, primarily against us (lvl 4 raven drivers) ?
Yours was the first post I have come across where someone actually thought about others (newer, less skilled)along with this topic. So I felt compelled to show gratitude, and ask some others to maybe take a page from this fellows book.
Sincerely, C4 Brunette By Birth...........Blonde By Nature. ------------------------------------------------ "Your suffering will be legendary, even in Hell." "No tears, please; it's a waste of good suffering." |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:11:00 -
[238]
Originally by: ********vomDIENST I am only playing for 6 months, but what they have done with missiles is just crazy. If you want to take missiles out of the game CCP, just remove them and dont nerf them!!!
But we still trust in you CCP, there will be a next patch and everyone get a second chance. If u wont fix it back, give all caldari missile skills away!!
You clearly don't understand CCP. They're more likely to nerf something else to bring it in line with missiles.
Hopefully they'll realize their gross mistake and fix the problem |
Quincunx
Minmatar Subspace Anomaly
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Posted - 2008.11.15 20:51:00 -
[239]
Please revise the missile changes...
I tried the new missiles in PVE earlier, and I do at most 1/3 of previous damage on armor on cruisers. Changes, ok, but cutting the damage by 2/3 is just rediculous. Ships like the NH becomes pretty much useless...
People say "fit a targetpainter and a webber!". Yeah right, on a NH for example, that's just not an option, because losing 2 midslots for those mods completely removes any possibility of a tank. |
asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds
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Posted - 2008.11.15 21:05:00 -
[240]
The real problem lies in NPC Battleships that MWD towards you while bombarding your shield that you've partly sacrificed in order to "ADAPT" by fitting a target painter and a webber. Webbing drones are worthless as they only have a 10k range and move like battleships, plus if your gonna use lights against cruisers and frigates in missions or ratting you can only use 2 webber drones as the Caldari BS drone bay is fail.
I'm a 2005 player with over 9 million missle skill points and pretty much maxed out shield skills to, so I'm not a 4 month old player trying to fly a raven or CNR proficiantly in regards to skills.
Watching torps do double digit damage to battleships is just total nonsence!!!! |
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.11.15 21:16:00 -
[241]
How do I word this.
I'll express it as a percentage.
If 0% was what Missiles were pre patch, and 100% was what they are now, I think they went about 33% overboard.
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AYRI RAVINIKA
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Posted - 2008.11.15 21:17:00 -
[242]
Originally by: asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds The real problem lies in NPC Battleships that MWD towards you while bombarding your shield that you've partly sacrificed in order to "ADAPT" by fitting a target painter and a webber. Webbing drones are worthless as they only have a 10k range and move like battleships, plus if your gonna use lights against cruisers and frigates in missions or ratting you can only use 2 webber drones as the Caldari BS drone bay is fail.
I'm a 2005 player with over 9 million missle skill points and pretty much maxed out shield skills to, so I'm not a 4 month old player trying to fly a raven or CNR proficiantly in regards to skills.
Watching torps do double digit damage to battleships is just total nonsence!!!!
There is no problem in missiling a npc battleship even without a target painter or web so you have no need to sacrifice tank. The problem is clearly lies between keyboard/mouse and your chair.
More-over if anyone is keeping count for every crybear that says they can't missile anything between frigate or battleship there is far more people taking the time to clarify there is no problem outside of their inability to accept their own failures.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.16 07:53:00 -
[243]
Originally by: AYRI RAVINIKA
Originally by: asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds The real problem lies in NPC Battleships that MWD towards you while bombarding your shield that you've partly sacrificed in order to "ADAPT" by fitting a target painter and a webber. Webbing drones are worthless as they only have a 10k range and move like battleships, plus if your gonna use lights against cruisers and frigates in missions or ratting you can only use 2 webber drones as the Caldari BS drone bay is fail.
I'm a 2005 player with over 9 million missle skill points and pretty much maxed out shield skills to, so I'm not a 4 month old player trying to fly a raven or CNR proficiantly in regards to skills.
Watching torps do double digit damage to battleships is just total nonsence!!!!
There is no problem in missiling a npc battleship even without a target painter or web so you have no need to sacrifice tank. The problem is clearly lies between keyboard/mouse and your chair.
More-over if anyone is keeping count for every crybear that says they can't missile anything between frigate or battleship there is far more people taking the time to clarify there is no problem outside of their inability to accept their own failures.
I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.
The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness. |
Mr Friendly
The Lost and The Damned
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Posted - 2008.11.16 08:17:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.
The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.
As you're obviously too dim to change your setup to bring your damage inline with what's easily achievable, can I have your stuff? You are quitting, right?
Oh wait... you're just mindlessly whining. Never mind then.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.16 08:38:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.
The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.
As you're obviously too dim to change your setup to bring your damage inline with what's easily achievable, can I have your stuff? You are quitting, right?
Oh wait... you're just mindlessly whining. Never mind then.
Try harder with the trolling.
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FlorisIII
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Posted - 2008.11.16 12:17:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.
The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.
I finished 2 lvl 4's in a Cerberus today, w/o target painter or web. Used T2 hvy missiles, precision vs small targets and high damage vs BS. I got the feeling it was as easy/hard as before the patch. The high damage missiles really failed against interceptors, but the precision missiles did the job quickly enough, and w/o missing
I did this just to give it a try, because i usually use two characters for a mission, the Cerb just to destroy the frigs and a Maelstrom or Dominix to destroy the rest (depending on mission).
Really, the stacking option makes it even less of an effort to do missions. I'm tempted to try the following midslot layout:
Gist small sb SBA 2x invul T2 Target painter
Lows 1x pdu 3x Ballistic Control T2
tank should hold if mainly kin/th damage is done and the range is >40km. Otherwise the accompaniing BS will do the tanking
Pvp it's still an niche ship. Hopefully ppl will underestimate the ship. Alone, it's a waste of isk, but in small gangs it can be a great contribution due to its ability to switch damage types and precision missile to hi dmg mssl.
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BongoMongo
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Posted - 2008.11.16 12:26:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Try harder with the trolling.
Try harder with the thinking.
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BhallSpawn
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Posted - 2008.11.16 21:45:00 -
[248]
missles before patch in pvp - sucks
missles after patch in pvp - sucks donkey balls |
Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.16 22:24:00 -
[249]
Cruise = Railguns = Artilary = Beam Laser Toprs = Blaster = Autocannon = Pulse Laser
Balance!
And yes my "Main" is Caldari, is a carebear (missions) and PvP'er (FW) Cruise should not be the "I win" against all ship classes. Drones are your friends.
Eve other pod pilots are friends, beleive it or not Eve is an MMO, its better with friends..who come along in a dessie kill frigs, and salvage... |
Harrent
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.16 22:30:00 -
[250]
Edited by: Harrent on 16/11/2008 22:30:29 I would not use a 20lb sludge hammer to mount a picture.
I would not take a dump truck to move 1 shovel full of dirt.
I would decapitate your cat if it hissed at me...
Therefore...
I will not use a missile 3x as large as the target and expect it to hit perfectly. (thereby reduction in dmg amounts)
I will not use a Drone slower than the target and with less turning ability and expect it to hit the target. (again the same)
If a frigate throws mud at me, i see no purpose in launching an ICBM on his house... (no point in approving of this sort of thing)
Why make something the UBERWTFPWN weapon? That invites people to do that Level 75 crap that they did in wow, ffxi, and so many other MMO's that it makes me sick.
I hate knowing that you will lose, at least if you use tactics in this game you can win even if you are vastly underpowered/underskilled. :-/
Eve is awesome, just got to play with the game mechanics. |
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Atomos Darksun
Infortunatus Eventus Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.16 22:41:00 -
[251]
carebear tears are delicious
I'm so glad I have 4 mil SP in drones...
Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...
Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming |
Macky Alcaz
|
Posted - 2008.11.16 22:54:00 -
[252]
so, before i did 250 stable damage / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 400 on hull...
now i do 138 damage (all the time) / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 200 on hull...
I use 'arbalest' cruise missile launchers and shoot angel rats.
Before i could take down a 1,2mill rat really easy and faction rats with some reloading but now it feels like im engaging faction spawns when im actually firing at the 500k rats..
Thanks for ****ing up my daily source of income out in 0.0 |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.17 20:57:00 -
[253]
Originally by: FlorisIII
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
I have yet to see someone bring up an acceptable reason for the current missile behavior.
The facts remain that missile lost another one of its few advantages. It was already hardly a first choice, not that great in PVP. Now it's pathetic, requiring even more sacrifices to tank just to come close to it's old effectiveness.
I finished 2 lvl 4's in a Cerberus today, w/o target painter or web. Used T2 hvy missiles, precision vs small targets and high damage vs BS. I got the feeling it was as easy/hard as before the patch. The high damage missiles really failed against interceptors, but the precision missiles did the job quickly enough, and w/o missing
I did this just to give it a try, because i usually use two characters for a mission, the Cerb just to destroy the frigs and a Maelstrom or Dominix to destroy the rest (depending on mission).
Really, the stacking option makes it even less of an effort to do missions. I'm tempted to try the following midslot layout:
Gist small sb SBA 2x invul T2 Target painter
Lows 1x pdu 3x Ballistic Control T2
tank should hold if mainly kin/th damage is done and the range is >40km. Otherwise the accompaniing BS will do the tanking
Pvp it's still an niche ship. Hopefully ppl will underestimate the ship. Alone, it's a waste of isk, but in small gangs it can be a great contribution due to its ability to switch damage types and precision missile to hi dmg mssl.
Right, you try that and see just how far it gets. Relying on someone else to screw up isn't really acceptable.
I also fail to see how a Cerberus in an L4, alongside another BS is a relavent discussion.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:00:00 -
[254]
– I say your 3% titanium tax goes too far! – And I say your 3% titanium tax doesn't go too far enough!
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:10:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Brea Lafail ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.
I bet since you understand them very much you never fly misile boats in PvP, do you.. noone does anymore for that matter, if for the lone torp ravens out there b/c the ppl don't have other race BS skills. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:16:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Cambarus I think I'm going to go and post this in al;l the missile whine threads, because TBFH it needs to be said:
Well let's look at the nerfs and some buffs of the last year or so, and see how caldari compares to other races:
Tier II BCs introduced, caldari and gallente both get a BC capable of fielding >BS sized tanks. Nice Buff IMO (though they later get nerfed a bit, they still field awesome tanks)
Nos nerf. Affects everyone but mostly the gallente with their nos Domis.
Drone bandwidth. Gallente get a huge nerf that hits 2 of their best ships (Eos and Myrmi) Required? Of course, but the nerf was over the top. The ishkur also took a beating with this one.
Drone shield recharge nerf. Gallente get hit really hard with this one as recalling/relaunching drones is no longer very viable.
First nano nerf. Nanophoons and nanodomis are no more. Gallente and minmatar get nerfed.
I know at some point the calldari recons got boosted, though I don't remember exactly how Razz If someone can point out the change to me that'd be appreciated.
Resistance nerf. Armor lost some EM, shields lost some explosive, everyone gets nerfed.
Torp Buff. All of a sudden the raven becomes a very viable option in pvp. A raven + a tackler is a dangerous combination when the raven can easily hit >1k DPS
Sensor damps reduced massively in effectiveness (by about 50%) HUGE gallente recon nerf.
Second nano nerf. Many matari (as well as some gallente + amarr) ships become far less useful in pvp.
Those who were paying attention earlier may have noticed that drone boats got nerfed pretty hard a while back. But blaster ships are still viable in pvp!
Oh wait...
Web nerf. Blaster boats do not have the optimal to work without a good web. The web reduction results in a required tracking several times greater then before, and much more then blasters have.
The missile nerf. The raven is no longer the powerhouse of mission running.
I'm pretty sure that caldari have had it easy for quite some time now, it amazes me how quickly people complain the instant CCP changes their PVE boats. You'll get used to it, it's not like you're competing against other people in the mission...
And as far as PvP goes, Torp raven is still awesome, all ECM ships are as well, and I will be soon flying a blasteRokh as it'll be one of the few blaster boats with the range to track targets.
Everyone gets nerfed, the ships are far from useless. There will still be more caldari pilots and caldari raven mission runners then any other race, and the price on CNRs is a hundred freaking mil higher then the navythron...
This is the first nerf felt by mission runners in years, which is why we're seeing so much complaining, eventually they will realize that the sky is not, in fact, falling and we will all resume our normal eve lives.
So in your line of thinking, as long as everyone gets nerfed to unusability, it's all ok? No it is not! nerfing other races does not help the fact this last wave of nerfs is over the top. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:17:00 -
[257]
Originally by: CHAOS100
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?
Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon? can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly?
And i can trade my constant hits for your ROF! |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:20:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 14/11/2008 06:47:55
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
The point is that you have to take into consideration all the various strengths and weaknesses of weapons systems. Missiles generally are not used in PVP, from what I understand. Most people seem to consider turrets to be more effective. As a trade-off, they were always better in PVE. The posters saying that it is fair to nerf missiles in PVE to bring them inline to turrets are ignoring the unaddressed weaknesses of missiles in PVP. The patch appears to have left missiles inferior in both PVP and PVE. So then, why would you fly a missile ship? I don't think the developers intended a whole class of weapons/ships to be that ineffective. I understand what they were trying to accomplish with the re-balance, but I think they went too far and it needs to be re-adjusted. As it stands now, my Maelstrom is more effective doing damage than my Raven in missions, and Artillery has never been considered to be particularly effective at PVE. Missiles need some kind of adjustment for balance. Either make them as effective at PVP as turrets, or make them more effective at PVE as a tradeoff.
Oh, and since you brought up our favorite mmo besides EVE, I should inform you that my Maelstrom is entirely crewed by Night Elf Rogues.
What people were saying was and still is that Cladari ships are not that good for solo pvp. And the reason for that was not the missiles but the fact that shield tank requires mid slots, as the warp jammers and webbers and other modules do.
They were not preferred in large gangs due to the flight time of the missiles, but guess what no drone ships are welcomed either in large fleets (unless it's with sentries) due to the flight time the drones need to reach the target.
Don't believe whatever people are saying in the forums, it's not always true. Lately the impression that many people writing constantly in forums rarely log in the game and actually play it, is growing.
As for PVE I still can't understand why it's impossible for the Caldari ship users to alternate their setups, and gain at least a portion of their former glory.
I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.
Because when you have only 6 mid slots to use for tackle, tank and helping modules (such as TP/CAP, etc.), it's a bit hard to alternate your setups. Unless you go armor tank in which case 5 lows are funny and you better go all damage... |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:38:00 -
[259]
Long Range:
Beam Laz0rs > Rails > Arties > Cruise/HML/SML
Short Range:
Pulse Laz0rs > ACs > Blasters > Torps/HAMs/Rockets
C/D?
--
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:49:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Black Scorpio on 17/11/2008 21:51:40 Edited by: Black Scorpio on 17/11/2008 21:50:50
Originally by: Haradgrim Long Range:
Beam Laz0rs > Rails > Arties > Cruise/HML/SML
Short Range:
Pulse Laz0rs > ACs > Blasters > Torps/HAMs/Rockets
C/D?
I would very much like the Tachyon damage on a Raven with Cruise misiles :)
Edit: Very true... |
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Ahmai Skarilukn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:54:00 -
[261]
As someone who has never flown a raven, I just want to know what the tank is with what one would consider "average" skills to efficiently fly one of these. Then, I would like to know what the loss in tank would be if a midslot was changed to a target painter.
Thank you people who answer constructively.
/me ignores people who flame. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.17 22:23:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Ahmai Skarilukn As someone who has never flown a raven, I just want to know what the tank is with what one would consider "average" skills to efficiently fly one of these. Then, I would like to know what the loss in tank would be if a midslot was changed to a target painter.
Thank you people who answer constructively.
/me ignores people who flame.
If you PvP, lets say that you'll die to any other good BS pilot 1v1 most of the time, rather than win.. especially starting at close range. The loss in tank would be same if you sacrifice 1-2 low slots (depends if you're flying a 8 or 7 low slot armor tank on an average armor tank. |
Frac Tal
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Posted - 2008.11.17 23:54:00 -
[263]
Words fail me |
Blastil
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 00:08:00 -
[264]
Originally by: BhallSpawn missles before patch in pvp - sucks
missles after patch in pvp - sucks donkey balls
I have a handfull of AF loses that would disagree with your concept of missles.
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Djens
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 01:13:00 -
[265]
Yeah and I can kill interceptors in my cerb now, something that would have been plain impossible pre patch. |
DreadedHunter
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 01:48:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Djens Yeah and I can kill interceptors in my cerb now, something that would have been plain impossible pre patch.
TBH wasnt a problem before with a Cerb. Most were stupid enuf to believe you didnt have a near 200k range whereas I find now you can still hit em but vastly reducted damage due to the missile relative speed dynamics :\ |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.18 02:12:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Brea Lafail ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.
I bet since you understand them very much you never fly misile boats in PvP, do you.. noone does anymore for that matter, if for the lone torp ravens out there b/c the ppl don't have other race BS skills.
You are correct, I bring an ECM boat for PVP as they are actually useful.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.18 02:15:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Djens Yeah and I can kill interceptors in my cerb now, something that would have been plain impossible pre patch.
This is because the sig radius penalty of MWDs now helps to counter the speed tank.
I think genuine speed-tanking ships (inties, vaga) got nerfed too much, but that's for another thread.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.18 02:58:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Macky Alcaz so, before i did 250 stable damage / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 400 on hull...
now i do 138 damage (all the time) / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 200 on hull...
I use 'arbalest' cruise missile launchers and shoot angel rats.
Before i could take down a 1,2mill rat really easy and faction rats with some reloading but now it feels like im engaging faction spawns when im actually firing at the 500k rats..
Thanks for ****ing up my daily source of income out in 0.0
Oh, poor you.... having to adapt and all.....
Look up a module called 'Target Painter'. There's also something called 'Drones' to help you with smaller targets.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:05:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Haradgrim Long Range:
Beam Laz0rs > Rails > Arties > Cruise/HML/SML
Short Range:
Pulse Laz0rs > ACs > Blasters > Torps/HAMs/Rockets
C/D?
Not really. Missiles are still pretty good, unless you insist on using them against target sizes they're not built for.
All the weapon types now require you to get into the correct tactical situation to be used optimally. Missiles didn't before. This rewards pilot skill (not skill points) as it is up to the pilot (and fc) to actually create that tactical situation.
Another advantage I see is that since speed has been nerfed and missiles brought into line, fleet composition means a lot more. Range is again a tactical tool, and support is once again a valuable fleet component.
Accept the fact that missiles are no longer one-size-pwns-all.... They never should have been....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:56:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Kerfira
Not really. Missiles are still pretty good, unless you insist on using them against target sizes they're not built for.
All the weapon types now require you to get into the correct tactical situation to be used optimally. Missiles didn't before. This rewards pilot skill (not skill points) as it is up to the pilot (and fc) to actually create that tactical situation.
Another advantage I see is that since speed has been nerfed and missiles brought into line, fleet composition means a lot more. Range is again a tactical tool, and support is once again a valuable fleet component.
Accept the fact that missiles are no longer one-size-pwns-all.... They never should have been....
I'm noticing a bit of revisionist history becoming a common theme discussing missiles; missiles were never a one-size-pwns-all weapon because of their obvious weakness against faster ships which made up the majority of one's opponents. With the nano-nerf and missile changes that weakness has been expanded to not only include those ships traveling at what have been deemed to be speed tank speeds (i.e. AB, non-target painted/sig boosted) but also any ship smaller than yourself.
And while that sounds like it makes sense because other weapon systems have similar limitations, we return to the age old issue of shield tankers being unable to tackle and tank at the same time, to which the usual response of "have someone else tackle for you" is applied. The problem with this is EVE is a numbers game and if by using another type of ship your opponent is able to tackle with their dps ships and have more of them since they haven't sacrificed pilots to be dedicated tacklers (or alternately still have the dedicated tacklers but have free mid-slots for utility such as additional webs, TDs, etc, etc) it can be the difference in a fight. While the issue still existed pre-QR; post-QR the issue has become more obvious due to a greater need for reliance on conventional tanks.
The truth is its even more complicated than this due to the balance of fitting tank vs gank on both shield and armor tankers and the increase in sig radius from passive shield tanking (which has an even greater detrimental effect now) as well as agility issues due to fitting plates and the like and the affect that can have on one's ability to speed tank. But my general feeling is that things are far less "balanced" post QR than they were for a long time before. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:26:00 -
[272]
HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is? ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Talon Calais
Gallente Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:32:00 -
[273]
So many tears.
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Inturist
Soviet Force Soviet Mercenary
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:33:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Inturist on 18/11/2008 07:33:28 Never in my life i was whining about something CCP introduced in new patch , but this time , seriously , CCP went to far, should at least review missiles and just make a q/a topic to discuss this with players .
edit: Some words ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:41:00 -
[275]
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
6 is less than 8. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:43:00 -
[276]
Everyone talks about missiles as if they are the only thing that got nerfed. What about the range nerf on guns now? For a mission runner, hitting anything with a gun is making the missions last way too long.
You didn't get much outside the optimal and falloff as it was, now it's ridiculous. The speed nerf means a lot of the larger NPC ships can stay out of your range and pound you with missiles because you can't fit anything that gets the speed to get close enough to shoot back. |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:44:00 -
[277]
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better |
Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 08:45:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Kerfira on 18/11/2008 08:46:29
Originally by: Haradgrim I'm noticing a bit of revisionist history becoming a common theme discussing missiles; missiles were never a one-size-pwns-all weapon because of their obvious weakness against faster ships which made up the majority of one's opponents.
Right.... Apart from nano'ed ships, heavy missiles and to some extent cruise missiles worked well against all shiptypes. As for nano... Seriously, you're trying to argue that one flawed game mechanic (which has now been reduced) is enough of a reason to keep another equally flawed one
My main is a Caldari pilot. He has ~12m SP in missiles and 300k in guns. Missiles are still a very good weapons system, as long as you think and attack targets they're good against. My guess is that it's the 'think' part that most missile users has so many problems with as before they didn't need to, just target and press f1-f2-f3...
All other weapons systems require you to think! Now missiles do too. If you can't adapt to that, that tells something about you.....
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:52:00 -
[279]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no? |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 09:05:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no?
What kind of noobish setup is that? Even what is the ship? Suppose that's a raven, point(short range with torps?) w/o MWD = fail, CFC when there is no cap consumption of note = fail, and SPR in PVP = even more fail Maybe it's a HAM drake then? No, still total fail on abovementioned reasons; maybe just SPR got better but PVP drakes fit DC II/PDS, not SPR |
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 10:05:00 -
[281]
NOT NEARLY FAR ENOUGH!
I think missiles should have been nerfed all the way back to the stone age. ---- Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*coughcough*aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrr!! |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 10:13:00 -
[282]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no?
What kind of noobish setup is that? Even what is the ship? Suppose that's a raven, point(short range with torps?) w/o MWD = fail, CFC when there is no cap consumption of note = fail, and SPR in PVP = even more fail Maybe it's a HAM drake then? No, still total fail on abovementioned reasons; maybe just SPR got better but PVP drakes fit DC II/PDS, not SPR
Just throwin' it up in the air, I fly amarr, all my setups are mwd/booster/sebo or point.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:29:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx Just throwin' it up in the air, I fly amarr, all my setups are mwd/booster/sebo or point.
Thats the point, you can't do that with caldari and its not enough to compare slot layout, many ships with very favorable slot layouts are ineffective due to a lack of CPU/grid. The balance issues are a lot less superfluous than that. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:31:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Blastil
Originally by: BhallSpawn missles before patch in pvp - sucks
missles after patch in pvp - sucks donkey balls
I have a handfull of AF loses that would disagree with your concept of missles.
Your statement doesn't mean you got killed because missiles are great at PvP, it means that you fought unwisely in an unfavorable for you situation and lost.
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:32:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Brea Lafail ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.
I bet since you understand them very much you never fly misile boats in PvP, do you.. noone does anymore for that matter, if for the lone torp ravens out there b/c the ppl don't have other race BS skills.
You are correct, I bring an ECM boat for PVP as they are actually useful.
Good, so we both agree that missiles are worthless in PvP now, and that only viable role for a Caldari PvP pilot is either in ECM ships or maybe as a remote sniper, or in a blob, where it really doesn't matter all that much..
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:34:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Macky Alcaz so, before i did 250 stable damage / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 400 on hull...
now i do 138 damage (all the time) / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 200 on hull...
I use 'arbalest' cruise missile launchers and shoot angel rats.
Before i could take down a 1,2mill rat really easy and faction rats with some reloading but now it feels like im engaging faction spawns when im actually firing at the 500k rats..
Thanks for ****ing up my daily source of income out in 0.0
Oh, poor you.... having to adapt and all.....
Look up a module called 'Target Painter'. There's also something called 'Drones' to help you with smaller targets.
Last time i checked Target painters, they help with ships signature radius, not explosion speed of missiles. Way to go for copy&paste responses.
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:36:00 -
[287]
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
The geddon has "only" 3 mid slots yes. It also has "only" 8 low slots for tank, uninterrupted by requirement to fit tackling modules there. i'd fight you in your cruise raven with a Target painter and light drones vs my geddon any day, want to schedule a fight?
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:37:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 18/11/2008 07:48:15
Everyone talks about missiles as if they are the only thing that got nerfed. What about the range nerf on guns now? For a mission runner, hitting anything with a gun is making the missions last way too long.
You didn't get much outside the optimal and falloff as it was, now it's ridiculous. The speed nerf means a lot of the larger NPC ships can stay out of your range and pound you with missiles because you can't fit anything that gets the speed to get close enough to shoot back.
CCP seems to be fast tracking this game to the same destination that SWG went.
Missiles are not the only thing that got nerfed but this is the topic of this post. Post your other comments in the appropriate other posts..
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:38:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no?
Wow, i mean with such an awesome tank and amazing PvP potential, the setup you just posted will surely defeat any other well fit BS.. mhm...
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:39:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Marchocias NOT NEARLY FAR ENOUGH!
I think missiles should have been nerfed all the way back to the stone age.
That's because you can not think.
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:40:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Just throwin' it up in the air, I fly amarr, all my setups are mwd/booster/sebo or point.
Maybe you should switch to flying a Raven in the setup you just proposed then and then run your mouth some more.
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Randibuggah
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 17:35:00 -
[292]
Back in the day... (about 4 years ago I think) missiles were something to be feared. There was no sig effect, speet was the only way to really keep out of their way.. Torps did SPLASH damage (rather neat in a Fleet battle but caused harm to friendlys close in.. as well as unintended Concordage when running a mission with friends in Empire).
Missiles were adjusted, whinage abouned, people adapted.. life went on. Missiles were not as UBAR the explosion radius and sig effects plus the time to target made them a second choice for fleet ops unless it was POS bashing, then Torps were the item of choice. Missiles made a darn nice ratting platform though...
Today missiles have been "readjusted" again. Sadly, the new attributes make using them pretty much useless. For a battleship to have to equip Heavy missiles to hit smaller targets is just plain silly. MOST (not all I know.. but the majority) of missile users are sheild tankers. The need to fit webs/TP's seriously affect the tanking ability on a midslot ship.
I do honestly believe that the new missile attributes really have gone too far. Oh I'll adapt, use guns, etc.. but it's sad to see a races "Primary" weapon relagated to a "Well I have a free slot so I might as well put a launcher on... *sigh*" choice.
Historically speaking missile boats were NEVER the highest ranking DPS dealers out there. They just managed to deal good dmg while having a decent tank. This has been taken away....
I really do hope that CCP rethinks this balance or at least give us a definative "It's not going to change.. Live with it" kind of answer so we at least know if they ever intend on revisiting missiles.
well that's my 2 isk worth anyway...
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Rothgar Detris
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 20:41:00 -
[293]
I really feel the need to weight in on this matter..
I have now been on over 7 months, have over 7 Mill SP, Caldari, and almost 1 mill SP in missiles, including lvl 4 in both Hvy and Cruise. I have all the supppports trained to at least lvl 3, lvl 4 in most. I have decent drone skills, including the skills to use t2 light and medium drones.
Using a Drake to do pratically any lvl 3 mission before QR, and taking the time to take out all targets, used to average about 30-45 mins. My tank (With all lvl4 supports and t2 equip) usually would never go below 60%. Now, I frequently find my tank sinking below 40%, and taking 10-12 mins PER BC-BS. In most cases too, sending out Drones for any pocket/spawn except last tends to be thier death warrent, and t2 Drones aren't exactly cheap.
Funny thing is, now it seems that the NPC missiles are actually doing MORE dmg than before. Which makes me wonder if CCP only applied the "nerfs" to players and left NPC's at Pre-QR calculations. I have to agree that cruise missiles are almost completely useless in just about any mission now, unless you know for sure that you are ONLY going to be facing BS's. Any mix, and your ship is at the mercy of THE SMALLEST SHIP(S) AROUND. Does this make ANY SENSE to anybody else?
Listen, I don't mind making it somewhat harder/higher skill-req's, but this patch REALLY goes too far. I mean, are you SUPPOSED to build a seperate ship and layout for EVERY ship class that you may encounter in a mission? Are we supposed to warp back and forth 4-5 times EVERY room/pocket, just to make sure we are actually doing ANY dmg?
I really think CCP needs to either find some medium point between pre QR and QR calculations, or really do some non-PVP testing of the dmg missile are actually doing in non-uber skill/ships and do some re-calculations. Becuase right now , it is broken.. |
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 21:06:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Rothgar Detris I really feel the need to weight in on this matter..
I have now been on over 7 months, have over 7 Mill SP, Caldari, and almost 1 mill SP in missiles, including lvl 4 in both Hvy and Cruise. I have all the supppports trained to at least lvl 3, lvl 4 in most. I have decent drone skills, including the skills to use t2 light and medium drones.
Using a Drake to do pratically any lvl 3 mission before QR, and taking the time to take out all targets, used to average about 30-45 mins. My tank (With all lvl4 supports and t2 equip) usually would never go below 60%. Now, I frequently find my tank sinking below 40%, and taking 10-12 mins PER BC-BS. In most cases too, sending out Drones for any pocket/spawn except last tends to be thier death warrent, and t2 Drones aren't exactly cheap.
Funny thing is, now it seems that the NPC missiles are actually doing MORE dmg than before. Which makes me wonder if CCP only applied the "nerfs" to players and left NPC's at Pre-QR calculations. I have to agree that cruise missiles are almost completely useless in just about any mission now, unless you know for sure that you are ONLY going to be facing BS's. Any mix, and your ship is at the mercy of THE SMALLEST SHIP(S) AROUND. Does this make ANY SENSE to anybody else?
Listen, I don't mind making it somewhat harder/higher skill-req's, but this patch REALLY goes too far. I mean, are you SUPPOSED to build a seperate ship and layout for EVERY ship class that you may encounter in a mission? Are we supposed to warp back and forth 4-5 times EVERY room/pocket, just to make sure we are actually doing ANY dmg?
I really think CCP needs to either find some medium point between pre QR and QR calculations, or really do some non-PVP testing of the dmg missile are actually doing in non-uber skill/ships and do some re-calculations. Becuase right now , it is broken..
Do you all idiots pasting "cry more carebears" ... or the like see who this patch is hurting most? It's hurting the newer players mostly. I won't say anything else. Ofc older playwers don't mind and adjust, this guy above for example however is taking about 2x the time to do what he was doing before. That is too far in my books.
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Rothgar Detris
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 21:31:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Do you all idiots pasting "cry more carebears" ... or the like see who this patch is hurting most? It's hurting the newer players mostly. I won't say anything else. Ofc older playwers don't mind and adjust, this guy above for example however is taking about 2x the time to do what he was doing before. That is too far in my books.
So your skill is ??? Why don't you try actually MAKING A POINT supported by FACTS and EXAMPLES, as oppossed to simplistic, overly generalized, moronic sarcasm, you forum troll.
Or do you need more skill training first? |
Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:58:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 12/11/2008 02:49:32
I haven't tested it out myself yet (trapped in classes) but I'm starting to wonder if we'll hear the bang from the CNR market crashing even further.
EDIT: Not for any real reason other than a mild panic from certain circles of mission runners who don't like what they see.
Naven prices have crashed?? really?
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:00:00 -
[297]
Well golem is now better then cnr.
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Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:07:00 -
[298]
Edited by: Boon McBwen on 18/11/2008 22:08:16
Originally by: Goyda
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
Yeah but a real battleship shooting at a real destroyer is shooting at something that is not only closer to its own size than an Eve AF is to a BS, but also something that is moving much closer to its own speed.
Of course a real destroyer may also be packing weaponry capable of doing massive damage to a battleship. Armor-busting guided missiles, for instance. No shields IRL.
But in before "no comparisons with RL ships plx"
yeah but a RL BS, would one shot a destroyer. :)
uh... no, it wouldn't, i cite the actions of destroyer group Taffy 3 at the battle off Samar during the engagement at Leyte gulf, where one destroyer took several hits from some Japanese behemoths... as proof, i offer this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar
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Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 22:21:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Rothgar Detris
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Do you all idiots pasting "cry more carebears" ... or the like see who this patch is hurting most? It's hurting the newer players mostly. I won't say anything else. Ofc older playwers don't mind and adjust, this guy above for example however is taking about 2x the time to do what he was doing before. That is too far in my books.
So your skill is ??? Why don't you try actually MAKING A POINT supported by FACTS and EXAMPLES, as oppossed to simplistic, overly generalized, moronic sarcasm, you forum troll.
Or do you need more skill training first?
Tisk tisk, biting the hand that pets you.. i was advocating your side of the story, if you haven't noticed. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:28:00 -
[300]
Allready before QR a raven didnt have a chance to break the tank of a real AF.
Since QR you can do missions faster than before QR, group your cruise missiles and there are far less defender missiles. It just means you need decent drone skills, which is also a requirement for EVERY turret BS. Before QR allready a turret bs can keep shooting a frig, it wouldnt hit it, now a raven requires just like turret BS drone skills for missions, big deal.
And besides that i dont use a target painter, i got my missile skills on lvl 4 and not 5 (so that doesnt take long), and missions go fine. |
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Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:46:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Goyda
yeah but a RL BS, would one shot a destroyer. :)
True, but a RL BS wouldn't be bothering to fire at destroyers anyway since they used to be screen keeping away the torpedo boats that could sink a battleship.
Imagine what a mess things would be if CCP introduced the equivalent of torpedo boats.. tiny ships that battleships can't even target that carry enough firepower to potentially sink a capital ship with only a few hits.
Sounds almost like an SB to me (an SB that fires torps... hmm) |
My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:56:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Rothgar Detris I really feel the need to weight in on this matter..
I have now been on over 7 months, have over 7 Mill SP, Caldari, and almost 1 mill SP in missiles, including lvl 4 in both Hvy and Cruise. I have all the supppports trained to at least lvl 3, lvl 4 in most. I have decent drone skills, including the skills to use t2 light and medium drones.
Using a Drake to do pratically any lvl 3 mission before QR, and taking the time to take out all targets, used to average about 30-45 mins. My tank (With all lvl4 supports and t2 equip) usually would never go below 60%. Now, I frequently find my tank sinking below 40%, and taking 10-12 mins PER BC-BS. In most cases too, sending out Drones for any pocket/spawn except last tends to be thier death warrent, and t2 Drones aren't exactly cheap.
Funny thing is, now it seems that the NPC missiles are actually doing MORE dmg than before. Which makes me wonder if CCP only applied the "nerfs" to players and left NPC's at Pre-QR calculations. I have to agree that cruise missiles are almost completely useless in just about any mission now, unless you know for sure that you are ONLY going to be facing BS's. Any mix, and your ship is at the mercy of THE SMALLEST SHIP(S) AROUND. Does this make ANY SENSE to anybody else?
Listen, I don't mind making it somewhat harder/higher skill-req's, but this patch REALLY goes too far. I mean, are you SUPPOSED to build a seperate ship and layout for EVERY ship class that you may encounter in a mission? Are we supposed to warp back and forth 4-5 times EVERY room/pocket, just to make sure we are actually doing ANY dmg?
I really think CCP needs to either find some medium point between pre QR and QR calculations, or really do some non-PVP testing of the dmg missile are actually doing in non-uber skill/ships and do some re-calculations. Becuase right now , it is broken..
whats your tanks setup? because if you are fitting a psssive you know that alll those sheild rigs you "might" have fitted increas your sig radius hugely unless the apropriate rig skills are trained and then its still a whole lot bigger and missile may hurt just that much more.... with the new missile damage formulas taking sig radius and speed into account i wonder how other passive tankers are doing? (just wondering really)
you may not be passive tanking in which case ignore what i have to say. |
Rothgar Detris
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:33:00 -
[303]
Edited by: Rothgar Detris on 18/11/2008 23:33:40 No, I am active tanking w/ 2X Invuln.II's. a Photon II and Heat II. All are between 70-80% when active. 3 Field Purger rigs. All shield skills at 4 or higher.
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:57:00 -
[304]
i am an all basic certificate :P pilot, 3 mill SP in missiles
i use a CNR with the following: 7 T2 siege launchers; 1 SS 100 MN afterburner, 1 CN large shield booster, 1 PWNAGE painter, 3 CN hardeners; 2 CN ballistic control systems, 3 beta power diagnosis systems; 1 hydraulic bay thrusters for missile speed, 1 rocket fuel cache partition for flight time, 1 missile flare for explosion velocity; 5 t2 light drones, 2 TP-900 heavy target painting drones.
i can kill an average guristas BS with 3 volleys of CN torpedoes (faction ammo), it takes me longer to kill a cruiser or a heavy assault cruiser than before. I can no longer instapop interceptors and assault frigates in missions.
when you apply 60% signature bonus to the target things aren't as ugly as without it.
Golem is far superior than the CNR now, it gets a bonus to TP signature and +25% to explosion velocity.
and still i think that missiles were overdone, as non proficient ships have difficulties with achieving the same performance with missile weaponry as caldari can.
the new system is much, much better, but is very raw... not favorable for not 'maxxed out' ships. Devs need to tweak it to more applicability. |
Novista
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Posted - 2008.11.19 00:59:00 -
[305]
Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
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Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.19 02:46:00 -
[306]
i just wanna know how to make make sure my cerb wont suck at pvp (aside from pilot incompetence)... |
M0rning5tar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.19 03:25:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Novista Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
NERF FALCON!!!111111!!
And too the guy above me, fit your cerb with faction lights.
Caldari are just LOL now apart from ECM. |
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.19 05:36:00 -
[308]
All I can say is Payback's a *****.
Rawr.
Adapt or die!!!
We gallenteans have been dealing with f***ed up weapons systems since the game began... our drones are about as ******ed as that kid *points at the corner where a kid is eating lead-based paint-chips from the radiator and washing them down with paste* |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:29:00 -
[309]
There was no need to alter any weapon damage in this patch.
Yes, we had a speed patch in this nerf But all that did was curb the unorthodox nano ships that were using fittings in the wrong way. Personally, our corp never had a problem with nano ships,they all died the same way.
What went seriously wrong was all the nerfs that followed it. Drones, turrets, missiles and such. There was no need for all that and it's totally borked the game for almost everyone. Things were fine as they were so long as unnatural speeds were curbed. Speed tanking always has been a means to cut missile damage but the idea was to mitigate the damage rather than avoid it completely. Nano ships took this a step too far and made it difficult even for tacklers to catch them.
What purpose does nerfing every weapon do except return the nano ship to the game? Now, you can have an almost perfect speed tank v missiles with an AB rather than using a MWD and several nano mods. Cruise missiles don't do much damage to a stationary cruiser now so that HAC that was nano'd before only needs to fit an AB to tank them completely. Even without it, any HAC can tank a Raven all day now if the Raven is fited with Cruise. Let's face it, that's what the ship has a bonus for so who isn't going to fit the weapon that gives them the best bonus?
Also, WTF were CCP thinking with this optimal/falloff nerf? Turrets were fine as they were.
This patch has served only one purpose: To toally **** off most of the playerbase.
I have 3 accounts, 1 each for mission runner, industrialist and PVP. The only one that's any use now is the industrialist an even then with this patch, there's no difference between now and what he always used to do. So much for the industrial buff We still can't find empty MR and Copy slots anywhere in Empire and we still can't put up a research POS without doing 99 years of mission running to get a +8 faction standing to circumvent that problem.
Only one (fairly) good thing came from this patch: The Orca. The rest was just a collection of badly thought out nerfs that has wrecked the game for the majority of players.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:56:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
We still can't find empty MR and Copy slots anywhere in Empire and we still can't put up a research POS without doing 99 years of mission running to get a +8 faction standing to circumvent that problem.
Missionrunning for faction standings? COSMOS and FW plexing are the correct way to go if you're interested in standings. |
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:58:00 -
[311]
Originally by: M0rning5tar
Originally by: Novista Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
NERF FALCON!!!111111!!
And too the guy above me, fit your cerb with faction lights.
Caldari are just LOL now apart from ECM.
Lol, having to use faction weapons just to get barely acceptable usefulness out of a weapon is completely unacceptable. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.19 07:13:00 -
[312]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
We still can't find empty MR and Copy slots anywhere in Empire and we still can't put up a research POS without doing 99 years of mission running to get a +8 faction standing to circumvent that problem.
Missionrunning for faction standings? COSMOS and FW plexing are the correct way to go if you're interested in standings.
FW is okay if your corp wants to do it. There's no leeway for a single player to do FW if they are a member of a player corp without involving the whole corp. Cosmos are fine if you want to pay millions of isk for the tags. Also, that character is an industrialist solo player and not a PVP/mission runner. His skills in gunnery and such are so low, he'd have trouble doing a lvl1 kill mission.
Getting a POS in highsec purely for research is practically impossible for an established corp, there's always one or two who have low standings with the faction. Doing it as a solo player is more possible but then you spend so much time/isk fuelling the POS that you don't have time to make isk.
In general, the industrialist didn't really get much at all in this patch.
Anyway, it's OT for this thread so I'll leave it at that.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.19 07:28:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: M0rning5tar
Originally by: Novista Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
NERF FALCON!!!111111!!
And too the guy above me, fit your cerb with faction lights.
Caldari are just LOL now apart from ECM.
Lol, having to use faction weapons just to get barely acceptable usefulness out of a weapon is completely unacceptable.
*facepalm*
seriously.
FACTION. LIGHTS. <- That's ammo. EVERYONE USED faction ammo since the t2 cruises were crap back then. ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.19 11:17:00 -
[314]
Edited by: Opertone on 19/11/2008 11:17:02 to revive the topic i have to say that there are non caldari missile users, who may not have noticed the changes yet.
eris uses lights, sacrilege uses assault missiles, typhoon uses torpedoes, heretic uses rockets, then vengeance, devoter, huggin and many more have a few missile hardpoints
without maxed out missile performance these ships can loose up to 50% of their DPS, missiles need to be looked into |
Claymaker
Caldari Restless Oblivion
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Posted - 2008.11.19 11:33:00 -
[315]
may sound like whining but I trained missle skills pretty much exclusivly for year and half. I'm caldari and a lot of there ships are missle based. To have them suddenly nerfed this much is a bit of a kick in the balls for time I've spent learning skills. "Adapt or Die" - balls to that after a year+ unless I get to re-allocate skill points on gunnery skills which ain't going to happen. So yes, I'd like the missle nerf looked at again.
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Todd Doughnut
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Posted - 2008.11.19 11:34:00 -
[316]
I dont think CCP went to far with the nerf on missiles.
Heres why:
THEY NERFED EVERYTHING.
People with guns lost substantial DPS from lack of closing speed for example.
Try to occasionally see things from a point of view other than your own myopic one.
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Kia Corallis
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Posted - 2008.11.20 13:36:00 -
[317]
My manticore is now better than a raven at lvl 4 missions?
Still wastes frigs with 1 or 2 cruise, ravens can hardly scratch the paintwork, seems the raven is becoming obsolete, bring on the rokh (still a lot of gunnery training required yet)
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Plan Neun
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 13:52:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Kia Corallis My manticore is now better than a raven at lvl 4 missions?
Still wastes frigs with 1 or 2 cruise, ravens can hardly scratch the paintwork, seems the raven is becoming obsolete, bring on the rokh (still a lot of gunnery training required yet)
The Manticore has better stats when it comes to hitting small target re the Raven. When using a Raven on small ships it is now adviced to use light drones as assistanse when taking em down.
Cheers.
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:24:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Black Scorpio That's because you can not think.
Can I be your friend? ---- Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*coughcough*aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrr!! |
iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:30:00 -
[320]
If missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
You all whined for a nerf to nanos and when nanos got nerfed they had to rebalance everything else, if you dont like it then next time think before you whine.
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:31:00 -
[321]
And ffs in missions use DRONES on frigs just like every other ship has to. I can still run L4s in a CNR just fine.
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Josef Odinssen
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:45:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Todd Doughnut I dont think CCP went to far with the nerf on missiles.
Heres why:
THEY NERFED EVERYTHING.
People with guns lost substantial DPS from lack of closing speed for example.
Try to occasionally see things from a point of view other than your own myopic one.
this.
I have a faction fit CNR for my main. it still works, but its crapper. but its still 10 percent less crap than everything else so meh - 4BN raven is still uber 4BN raven with less ammo costs and more drone work. so im not terribly upset by missile nerf, it saves me some missiles and my drones do more work and my tank is still unbreakable, takes a few minutes longer but then salvaging always takes eons so meh whats the difference. it does however make missiles even more borked for PVP than ever.
My argument against CCP is they are not so much in a Eve arms race as a Eve Arms run backwards.
Imagine if, one day G W Bush rang up the US Air Force and said
"now lads, we know after 70 years of rocketry development youve got some kick ass missiles that can one shot a Mig29. but thats kind of wrong so lets go back to 1942 and a good old fashioned gatling gun"
CCP must be the one company in the world that think guns, not missiles are the future.
Im mean seriously. does ANYONE imagine if we ever have a war in space they will be fitting M60's to space shuttles?
The fact iceland doesnt have any credible military force explains a lot of reasoning why icelandic developers fail so badly at Military tactics and armaments developments.
At least EA games has a quick skim thru Janes Defence weekly.
Perhaps we should have a whip round and send some military technology of the 21st century books to CCP before the next nerf.
I dont really have any axe to grind. my main has over 16M in gunnery and only about 3M in missiles and all relevent missile skills buffed plus T2 drones so I'm not nearly as hard hit as most players and "can adapt and not die" but i do think some of the nerfs should have been buffs to counter technology instead. constant nerfing is contradicting the whole principal of military advancement.
and also, where do i sign up to be a NPC pirate? those boys get better by the day, especially that dude with his 500K DPS supertorp.
by the time the jove come we is gonna be ****ed beyond repair!
I mean, at this rate we will using cannonballs and swords - welcome to Eve - the 1842 Napoleonic Age
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:54:00 -
[323]
The nerfs are not part of the storyline, they're game balance changes so we can play internet spaceships. Tech 3 is coming, buckle up.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:58:00 -
[324]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra If missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
You all whined for a nerf to nanos and when nanos got nerfed they had to rebalance everything else, if you dont like it then next time think before you whine.
As you can with a sniper fit BS, what's your point?
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:59:00 -
[325]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:00:00 -
[326]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra And ffs in missions use DRONES on frigs just like every other ship has to. I can still run L4s in a CNR just fine.
I bet you can still run missions fine in a faction fit CNR. That should not be a requirement for missiles to be usable. Also conicidentally Caldari have the LOWEST drone space, which should have been offset by the fact missiles would take care of smaller craft.
Since misiles are now ****ED.. how about you bring also inline caldari drone bays to 125 drone space/bandwidth as well?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:01:00 -
[327]
Edited by: Black Scorpio on 20/11/2008 15:01:46
Originally by: Furb Killer That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
Really? i highly doubt that bro..
Light missiles had trouble catching interceptors, don't even mention cruises in the same line of thought. If you were in a mwd-ing interceptor orbiting a raven and you were instapopped, you were doing it wrong.
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:02:00 -
[328]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:03:47 I also doubt it, but you said they could, wasnt going to argue with you on that point...
Have you ever used a non-missile BS? I have with good skills, faction fitting. I had it compared to my CNR with low skills, and before i had fitted faction stuff on it. The result, CNR is far better than megathron. Only amarr BS can compete on some missions with CNR. And raven got enough drone bay to use 5 meds and 5 lights, what more do you want? ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:03:00 -
[329]
What, are you going to take out those pesky interceptors with your 5 heavy drones? The raven has enough room for 5 mediums and 5 lights, exactly enough to server their intended purpose.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:03:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail.
Missiles are still able to be shot down with defenders? even easier now with grouping.. your point was?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:04:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Karille What, are you going to take out those pesky interceptors with your 5 heavy drones? The raven has enough room for 5 mediums and 5 lights, exactly enough to server their intended purpose.
It sure does, however i thought you wanted to bring ships in line with other ships, not give futile lessons on how 5 drones fit in a raven. I can surely fit 5, but i'd prefer to fit twice that just as say the mega.. since they're both tier 2 BS. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:05:00 -
[332]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is... |
Randibuggah
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:05:00 -
[333]
And once again, I think many of us... (both whiners and those genuinely concerned) would like to have some offical response from CCP on this Missile issue.
That's not too much to ask is it? |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:06:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:07:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:03:47 I also doubt it, but you said they could, wasnt going to argue with you on that point...
Have you ever used a non-missile BS? I have with good skills, faction fitting. I had it compared to my CNR with low skills, and before i had fitted faction stuff on it. The result, CNR is far better than megathron. Only amarr BS can compete on some missions with CNR. And raven got enough drone bay to use 5 meds and 5 lights, what more do you want?
So now everyone should get a CNR to be as effective as before? Everyone here's trowing out a flat line with that ridiculous.. yeaaahh my CNR works still ok on missions..
And it should.. the fact you now need a CNR to be ok with missions is borked. Not to mention PvP use for other caldari missile boats.. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:07:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
I'd fight your raven in my megathron any day.. how about that.. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:08:00 -
[337]
How about read my post again and tell me where i say you need a CNR to be as effective as before.
At the moment raven is still best non faction BS in general for missions. TRY another BS and find out yourself |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:08:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions.
Weapon grouping does not increase the DPS, it only groups your shots into 1. That still can be hit by defender and actually destroys more of your DPS if hit with a defender. I don't know where you get your facts from. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:09:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
I'd fight your raven in my megathron any day.. how about that..
Sure, the day i have decent missile skills we do that. And then we see who wins while you are trying to reach me while i am pounding your mega with torps. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:09:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Furb Killer How about read my post again and tell me where i say you need a CNR to be as effective as before.
At the moment raven is still best non faction BS in general for missions. TRY another BS and find out yourself
I would disagree with you and quote the Dominix. |
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:10:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
I'd fight your raven in my megathron any day.. how about that..
Sure, the day i have decent missile skills we do that. And then we see who wins while you are trying to reach me while i am pounding your mega with torps.
Go ahead and train them |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:13:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions.
Weapon grouping does not increase the DPS, it only groups your shots into 1. That still can be hit by defender and actually destroys more of your DPS if hit with a defender. I don't know where you get your facts from.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:24:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
If you use a mega for missions, why are you commenting in a thread about missiles? Train for a raven, try it, then come back, 'k?
Caldari were the best at PvE, that's why I them for my mission-running alt. Now they are worse than some other factions for missions. Other factions that are actually useful for PvP beyond e-war.
Atleast I had the forethought to start cross-training my main to amarr a year ago. |
TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:25:00 -
[344]
Edited by: TZeer on 20/11/2008 15:25:55
Quote: If missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
Stop talking crap. No raven have, can or will ever intapop any interceptor going full speed.
As long as the inty was doing full speed the cruise couldnt do much.
What could destroy it was: MWD activated, webbed by rapier or any other tackler, and a load of precissions incomming.
Another thing was forcing it to get closer if it wanted to tackle, then neut it and put precissions at it. But you never killed it in one volley.
Quote:
Originally by: iloni atoriandraIf missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
You all whined for a nerf to nanos and when nanos got nerfed they had to rebalance everything else, if you dont like it then next time think before you whine.
As you can with a sniper fit BS, what's your point?
Quote: That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
1: As long as the inty was keeping it`s speed up, no raven would instapop it. Period. 2: Shooting at inty from far away with raven = useless unless you had it tackled. 3: Shooting inty from far away with sniping turrets BS, might give you a wrecking hit and instapop it. Anyway, you had bigger chance of success with a turret ship shooting a inty then missiles at long range. 4: Going close with inty on a missile was very bad if it made you speed go down, or if you went inside neut range, etc.
The first patch that was on SISI people where talking about "Drake of doom" that could instpop intys. Well i tested it. Guess what, the precission lights had so crap range that the "Drake of doom" couldnt kill my inty. The missiles didnt have long enough flight time to catch up with the inty.
Yes you could use rigs, but then you had to sacrifice other rigs for missiles, wich meant the missiles would do less to almsot zero damage when it first hit.
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:39:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:41:26 Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:41:01
Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
If you use a mega for missions, why are you commenting in a thread about missiles? Train for a raven, try it, then come back, 'k?
Caldari were the best at PvE, that's why I them for my mission-running alt. Now they are worse than some other factions for missions. Other factions that are actually useful for PvP beyond e-war.
Atleast I had the forethought to start cross-training my main to amarr a year ago.
I got also a CNR, and atm my navy mega is just gathering dust because CNR is so much better
About raven insta popping inties, i know it doesnt, but a missile fanboy claimed they could so didnt argue with that. A turret BS also wont kill an interceptor.
Posting here again because in previous post it went wrong, (editted now so is correct, but anyway):
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions.
Weapon grouping does not increase the DPS, it only groups your shots into 1. That still can be hit by defender and actually destroys more of your DPS if hit with a defender. I don't know where you get your facts from.
FFS have you even tried missions...
with a raven now 6 times less defender missiles are fired when grouped, one still removes same portion of dps, so 6 times less dps removed.
Get a clue. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:48:00 -
[346]
Yes, CCP went much too far. If the missile says it will do 500dmg (unresisted), then it should do 500dmg (unresisted) regardless of how fast the missile or target are moving relative to each other.
What CCP need to clarify is how much damage is done by the explosion of the warhead and how much damage is done by the impact of the warhead. These are two entirely different things.
As it stands the explosion damage is being nerfed by the relative velocity and this does not happen IRL. Sure, this is a space game but it should reflect reality in some places and explosions are one thing that I feel should be reflected accurately.
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:55:00 -
[347]
Sure when my guns do the damage they say they do, then your missiles can do the damage they say they do.
I can assure you dreadnaughts will become much more popular with that change... ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:01:00 -
[348]
I think the OP wishes he'd run a spell check on his name before he clicked enter game.
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Josef Odinssen
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:06:00 -
[349]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail.
why is "you just fail" the answer everyone trots out?
In what way do i fail? I already pointed out ive got 16M+ in gunnery on my main character and good T2 drone skills so missile changes have affected me by fractions of percent therefore show me how i fail??????
You contradict yourself to make your own point sadly. You say american navy is DEVELOPING railguns to fit to next gen ships.
the key to this is DEVELOPING. they arent NERFING MISSILES in order to fit NEXT GENERATION RAIL GUNS.
get the point? if the US Navy were CCP they wouldnt bother DEVELOPING next gen railguns they would simply take their missiles back to 1960s variants and fit some WW2 railguns and call it a job well done.
if you dont see the point im making that balance should be progessive FORWARD DEVELOPMENT i.e if missiles are overpowered then they are so by design, so you DEVELOP better countermeasures i.e BUFF DEFENDERS and ECM - classic counter measures to missiles.
if you think that calling for DEVELOPMENT and PROGRESS = fail thank god you dont work in my research and development team or this time next year we would be making phone calls with 2 cups and a length of string CCP nerfbat style.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:10:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Furb Killer Sure when my guns do the damage they say they do, then your missiles can do the damage they say they do.
I can assure you dreadnaughts will become much more popular with that change...
I agree. It should be the same for hybrids and projectiles also. I'm Gallente. Missiles are hardly my thing either but my point still stands.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:11:00 -
[351]
@Josef Odinssen
This is a game, compare it to games. /nonsense |
Randibuggah
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:12:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Josef Odinssen
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail.
why is "you just fail" the answer everyone trots out?
In what way do i fail? I already pointed out ive got 16M+ in gunnery on my main character and good T2 drone skills so missile changes have affected me by fractions of percent therefore show me how i fail??????
You contradict yourself to make your own point sadly. You say american navy is DEVELOPING railguns to fit to next gen ships.
the key to this is DEVELOPING. they arent NERFING MISSILES in order to fit NEXT GENERATION RAIL GUNS.
get the point? if the US Navy were CCP they wouldnt bother DEVELOPING next gen railguns they would simply take their missiles back to 1960s variants and fit some WW2 railguns and call it a job well done.
if you dont see the point im making that balance should be progessive FORWARD DEVELOPMENT i.e if missiles are overpowered then they are so by design, so you DEVELOP better countermeasures i.e BUFF DEFENDERS and ECM - classic counter measures to missiles.
if you think that calling for DEVELOPMENT and PROGRESS = fail thank god you dont work in my research and development team or this time next year we would be making phone calls with 2 cups and a length of string CCP nerfbat style.
Well Said!! Missiles have been effectively "de-nutted" by this patch, us Missile Spammers weren't the DPS kings to begin with, missiles were fine for mission running.. but sufferec in PvP situations.
The amount of nerfing (god how I hate that word) from this patch has made both missiles and Caldari as a whole far less effective (Neither were Ubar for PvP ecept for EWAR).
And NO I don't fail.. I have 10mil in missiles, almost as much in gunnery.. so when I compare the two missiles run a poor second.
We're not asking for the WTFBBQPWNZORSAUCE weapon here, just some kind of reasonable compromise please. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:29:00 -
[353]
So because IRL stuff only becomes better, it also should be in games?
Okay, missiles explosion velocity is now 10 times larger than before. All trackings, velocities and distances are now 100 times larger than before, and we remove two zeros from every distance and velocity in interface, so the end result is that it only shows everything is same and explosion velocity is lower, but actually everything is higher... |
Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:32:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Josef Odinssen
the key to this is DEVELOPING. they arent NERFING MISSILES in order to fit NEXT GENERATION RAIL GUNS.
get the point?
Actually I think it is you that doesn't understand this is a game my friend. IRL there is an arms race. In Eve there is an arms balance.
If we had continuous development in this game as in real life then new stuff would have to come out with every patch. ie. ships would have to have better armor/shields/propulsion/ewar defence to compensate for the increased damage from weapons.
This holds for mods too, with a new armor hardener with better hardening, or new shield resist with better resistance. Soon, these would both be reaching 99.9% hardening/resistance, and then 99.99%, and the 99.9999% etc etc.
It makes far more sense to nerf than to increase. |
Josef Odinssen
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:03:00 -
[355]
No i understand clearly its a game, but what i also understand is that if you cant use missiles as effectively as a class of offensive modules as you can gunnery then there is something horribly broken with missiles.
I am arguing that instead of nerfing missiles already poor DPS output they should have buffed countermeasures so you could fit chaff launchers/flares and brought it into line with other GAMES that use missiles.
Standard Game Long range Combat: missiles Standard Game Short Range Combat: gunnery Standard Countermeasures: Chaff & ECM (radar guided) Flares (heat seeking).
If CCP had introduced missiles the way every combat GAME ive ever played had and had a balanced countermeasure then we wouldnt be in this mess today.
Its lazy programming. instead of creating proper missile/countermeasure classes then they do a bit of DB value tweaks and hope it goes away. all im pointing out in other GAMES they dont just decide missiles are overpowered and make the class useless in PVP, they make sure PVP players have adequate countermeasures with which to fight missiles.
Its not rocket science (well it is but meh) - i played Elite in 1983 and even on a 16K computer they managed to balance missile/gunnery combat and i can't remember a single flight related combat simulator that has this problem in the past 20 years because everyone followed the fairly simple RL rules of missile combat/countermeasure.
I am merely suggesting (Which clearly isnt allowed in Eve) that missile combat dynamics in eve are flawed by design vs other combat flight simulators, and instead of just taking a cheap patch option of tweaking values they should have looked at WHY missiles are not a VIABLE combat tool in PVP in THIS GAME.
But instead of a reasoned "why are missiles broken" argument we are bound to descend into the usual hawt gunners vs missile spammers hate war rather than looking at why missiles don't complement gunnery in a way like oh i dont know every other combat flight simulator since the dawn of time.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:04:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Yes, CCP went much too far. If the missile says it will do 500dmg (unresisted), then it should do 500dmg (unresisted) regardless of how fast the missile or target are moving relative to each other.
The base damage is v a stationary target.
Quote: What CCP need to clarify is how much damage is done by the explosion of the warhead and how much damage is done by the impact of the warhead. These are two entirely different things.
No damage is done by impact, missiles do not actually impact the target in Eve. All missiles are AOE damage only.
Quote: As it stands the explosion damage is being nerfed by the relative velocity and this does not happen IRL. Sure, this is a space game but it should reflect reality in some places and explosions are one thing that I feel should be reflected accurately.
Go back to your basic physics class. Any explosion travels outward from the source at a set speed. Travelling faster than that speed will out-run it. This is the principle of speed tanking. RL: A jet travelling faster than the speed of sound (read: interceptor) can outrun the blast of a nuclear bomb since the shockwave travels at the speed of sound.
The only thing CCP have not taken into consideration is the dissipation of the damage potential over distance. Therefore in Eve, the outer radius of the blast does as much damage as the core so, if your ship is already halfway out of the max blast radius, you only receive 50% of the damage. I'm sure that, with a bit of calculus and providing the physics engine doesn't get overloaded, CCP can program that in as well so it will effectively nerf missiles far more than has been done currently. A BS travelling at 130m/s will easily outrun the major portion of the blast and the dissipated splash damage it does receive will mean a cruise would only do as much total damage to the BS as rockets currently do.
You also need to take into consideration that shields are not a reality. They are essentially an ECM device that causes the missile to explode at a set distance away from the ships hull. This is another area where RL and Eve cannot be compared.
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Katy Karkinoff
Minmatar Psycho Chicks
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:15:00 -
[357]
Ha. AHAHAAHAA.
The missile users are still crying? You idiots DO realize EVERYONE is in the same boat right? Lasers are the only ones not overly effected. Large weapons (cruise, torps, large turrets) all now do next to nothing to smaller classes.
If you haven't read the threads explaining how to ADAPT to the change then it's your own damn fault. Seriously. You cried about nano's and told them to adapt. I did it and now you get your just desserts.
There have been a few threads explaining on how to adapt tactics to still be king of pve. And i would also like to point out for you that a raven does about 85% of a blaster throns theoretical DPS at 300% of the range (we've all seen the blaster threads) so there is no crying that missiles sucked in pvp. RE: FinalFlash's SOLO raven de pwn.
Thank, and have a wonderful day |
supr3m3justic3
Caldari Hakata Group Blade.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:21:00 -
[358]
ME! |
Thudin
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Posted - 2008.11.20 18:49:00 -
[359]
This thread is still going?
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.20 19:10:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Originally by: Furb Killer Sure when my guns do the damage they say they do, then your missiles can do the damage they say they do.
I can assure you dreadnaughts will become much more popular with that change...
I agree. It should be the same for hybrids and projectiles also. I'm Gallente. Missiles are hardly my thing either but my point still stands.
I also agree, get rid of the wrecking, well aimed and more of that stuff :D So this person can see the turrets doing the damage they list?
lol
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Mr Nash
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Posted - 2008.11.20 19:15:00 -
[361]
Missles Now have really no Damage. Med Drone Nerf.
Can't fit 5 large drone's in a any Cal Battleship.
After Burner, Web, Target painter, And Distruptor..
Which slots do these use? Same as Cals Tank.
Cal is Dead..
Nice way to make sure they loose Faction Wars....
Nash
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 19:25:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Mr Nash Med Drone Nerf.
Can't fit 5 large drone's in a any Cal Battleship.
Sounds like you want to replace your nerfed mediums with heavies… lolwut?
Or are you saying you want to engage large targets, but can't carry the heavies for the job? In that case: good news! Mediums are as effective as ever against larger targets.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 19:53:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
Quote: As it stands the explosion damage is being nerfed by the relative velocity and this does not happen IRL. Sure, this is a space game but it should reflect reality in some places and explosions are one thing that I feel should be reflected accurately.
Go back to your basic physics class. Any explosion travels outward from the source at a set speed. Travelling faster than that speed will out-run it. This is the principle of speed tanking. RL: A jet travelling faster than the speed of sound (read: interceptor) can outrun the blast of a nuclear bomb since the shockwave travels at the speed of sound.
Well, not exactly no. If a missile hits a plane the explosion travels through the plane from the point of impact. It doesn't matter what speed the plane is going. If what you were saying were accurate then a plane would be able to fly away from the impact without damage if it is traveling supersonically. This clearly isn't true as any downed interceptor pilot will tell you.
Your point about nothing impacting in Eve seems wrong also. If there was no actual impact there would be no kinetic damage. No contact means no transference of momentum ie. no kinetic energy can be transferred to the impacted item. |
Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.11.20 20:37:00 -
[364]
Edited by: Lady Karma on 20/11/2008 20:39:17
Originally by: Josef Odinssen
If CCP had introduced missiles the way every combat GAME ive ever played had and had a balanced countermeasure then we wouldnt be in this mess today.
You mean like the countermeasures that were already in game to deal with speed ships? CCP still went ahead and overnerfed them, than had to redesign the entire missile hit formula.
Thing is, you don't see pages of vagabond pilots moaning, they have already adapted, maybe you could do the same.
To the wannabe physicists talking about RL aircraft and missiles, can I remind you that there are no shields in RL, and that EVE is a video game.
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Corellian Jedi
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Posted - 2008.11.20 22:28:00 -
[365]
Edited by: Corellian Jedi on 20/11/2008 22:29:20 Edited by: Corellian Jedi on 20/11/2008 22:28:56
Originally by: Lady Karma Edited by: Lady Karma on 20/11/2008 20:39:17
Originally by: Josef Odinssen
If CCP had introduced missiles the way every combat GAME ive ever played had and had a balanced countermeasure then we wouldnt be in this mess today.
can I remind you that there are no shields in RL,
Thats utter lies. my BMW 330D has 76% resists against EM damage as long as the battery doesnt go flat and can aggro a carpark full of Audis for over an hour!
poster is clearly fail for lol noob RL fit.
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Tatianna
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Posted - 2008.11.20 22:35:00 -
[366]
Yes but is your beamer **** faction fitted?
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Corellian Jedi
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Posted - 2008.11.20 22:44:00 -
[367]
Edited by: Corellian Jedi on 20/11/2008 22:45:44 Edited by: Corellian Jedi on 20/11/2008 22:45:30
Originally by: Tatianna Yes but is your beamer **** faction fitted?
Yes, funnily enough. You can solo poland in it but if you try the Bonus Room on the Eastern Front Level 4 things get a bit sticky.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.21 04:02:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Lady Karma To the wannabe physicists talking about RL aircraft and missiles, can I remind you that there are no shields in RL, and that EVE is a video game.
No **** sherlock.
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.21 04:05:00 -
[369]
Why is the word N a z i being censored? It's a legitimate word that can be used in non-derogatory terms. Are you going to censor black and white too?
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Ethen Bejorn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.21 04:14:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Edited by: Slinkus Gallentus on 21/11/2008 04:09:58 Why is the word "N a z i" being censored?
CCP you're getting PC beyond belief and it is utterly sad. You gonna censor SS, SA, STASI, NKVD, KGB? All of them have negative associations in history, but they are not derogatory unless used in a derogatory context.
Absolutely pathetic.
Iceland has a special relationship with Russian & the old communist Germany.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.21 04:24:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Ethen Bejorn
Iceland has a special relationship with Russian & the old communist Germany.
Yeah and we have them with Vikings, Normans and Romans. They gonna ban those too?
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
AnzacPaul
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Posted - 2008.11.21 08:14:00 -
[372]
Edited by: AnzacPaul on 21/11/2008 08:15:38
08:03:12 Combat Your Scourge Precision Heavy Missile hits Ishkur, doing 6.8 damage.
08:03:10 Combat Your Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile hits Ishkur, doing 4.7 damage.
08:03:12 Combat Your Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Ishkur, doing 3.3 damage.
Nope missiles are just fine when an ishkur can tank 3 t2 cruisers firing on it
Oh and it was an webbed ishkur with an AB, i understand resists are high, but cmon, that is just stupid, 30-40 damage i could handle, but 5 and 6? cmon
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.21 08:27:00 -
[373]
Edited by: Karille on 21/11/2008 08:28:04
Originally by: AnzacPaul Edited by: AnzacPaul on 21/11/2008 08:15:38
08:03:12 Combat Your Scourge Precision Heavy Missile hits Ishkur, doing 6.8 damage.
08:03:10 Combat Your Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile hits Ishkur, doing 4.7 damage.
08:03:12 Combat Your Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Ishkur, doing 3.3 damage.
Nope missiles are just fine when an ishkur can tank 3 t2 cruisers firing on it
Oh and it was an webbed ishkur with an AB, i understand resists are high, but cmon, that is just stupid, 30-40 damage i could handle, but 5 and 6? cmon
You're talking about hitting a ship with a missile that's too large in its two highest resists. It has 67.5% thermal and 83.7% kinetic resists base on its armor.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.21 08:42:00 -
[374]
Originally by: AnzacPaul Edited by: AnzacPaul on 21/11/2008 08:15:38
08:03:12 Combat Your Scourge Precision Heavy Missile hits Ishkur, doing 6.8 damage.
08:03:10 Combat Your Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile hits Ishkur, doing 4.7 damage.
08:03:12 Combat Your Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Ishkur, doing 3.3 damage.
Nope missiles are just fine when an ishkur can tank 3 t2 cruisers firing on it
Oh and it was an webbed ishkur with an AB, i understand resists are high, but cmon, that is just stupid, 30-40 damage i could handle, but 5 and 6? cmon
Just FYI.... You're trying to hit a frigate with a weapon intended for cruisers and bigger. This is not INTENDED to work well!
Having a 'big ship' is no longer the counter to 'small ship'. This makes the game BETTER as variety is increased. Small ships have a purpose again.
If you want to hit frigates, mount light missiles on your cruiser. What you're doing in RL terms is try to drill a hole using a hammer, ie. you are using the wrong tool for the job....
Why you think that you should be able to do this is pretty unbelievable... not to mention pretty stupid...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.21 08:51:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Kerfira
Why you think that you should be able to do this is pretty unbelievable... not to mention pretty stupid...
They think they should be able to do it because they used to be able to. It will take some people a while to adjust to their new balanced play style.
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Undertow Latheus
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Posted - 2008.11.21 09:23:00 -
[376]
THREAD IS INVINCIBLE!!!!!! :((((((
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.21 14:36:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Kerfira Why you think that you should be able to do this is pretty unbelievable... not to mention pretty stupid...
Because 3 turret HACs could brutalize a webbed ishkur? Simply need to maneuver so it can't keep a high transverse against all 3 and, bam.
But that doesnt work with missiles.
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Mjolnor
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Posted - 2008.11.21 14:38:00 -
[378]
They didn't go far enough.
They implemented all the penalties that other weapon systems have, but forgot to buff the base damage of missiles to the level of the other systems as well.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.21 14:45:00 -
[379]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/11/2008 14:45:01
Originally by: Mjolnor
They implemented all the penalties that other weapon systems have, but forgot to buff the base damage of missiles to the level of the other systems as well.
Missile DPS is perfectly balanced with turret DPS when ranges are considered. Turrets are themselves balanced on range v DPS largely.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Azunade
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Posted - 2008.11.21 15:56:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Cambarus I think I'm going to go and post this in al;l the missile whine threads, because TBFH it needs to be said:
Well let's look at the nerfs and some buffs of the last year or so, and see how caldari compares to other races:
Tier II BCs introduced, caldari and gallente both get a BC capable of fielding >BS sized tanks. Nice Buff IMO (though they later get nerfed a bit, they still field awesome tanks)
Nos nerf. Affects everyone but mostly the gallente with their nos Domis.
erm what? let me introduce you to the curse and the pilgrim aswell as the bhaalgorn pls.
Originally by: Cambarus Drone bandwidth. Gallente get a huge nerf that hits 2 of their best ships (Eos and Myrmi) Required? Of course, but the nerf was over the top. The ishkur also took a beating with this one.
gallente for sure are hit hard but the other races the same *raven with 50 bandwith just for example*
Originally by: Cambarus Drone shield recharge nerf. Gallente get hit really hard with this one as recalling/relaunching drones is no longer very viable.
just a balance for fighters and normal combat with droneboats. nothing wrong with it.
Originally by: Cambarus First nano nerf. Nanophoons and nanodomis are no more. Gallente and minmatar get nerfed.
might i remember you that burn eden stil successfully used nanoravens for a long long time? nothing more to say..
Originally by: Cambarus I know at some point the calldari recons got boosted, though I don't remember exactly how Razz If someone can point out the change to me that'd be appreciated.
ecm got nerfed long time ago with general ecm useless and only racial good. so boost was necessary on those as not working properly and EVERY TIME like dampening on gallente for example.
Originally by: Cambarus Resistance nerf. Armor lost some EM, shields lost some explosive, everyone gets nerfed.
shieldtank is stil weaker ;).
Originally by: Cambarus Torp Buff. All of a sudden the raven becomes a very viable option in pvp. A raven + a tackler is a dangerous combination when the raven can easily hit >1k DPS
Well if you overlook the rangenerf of course making torps entire useless for anything about 30km range without really awesome skills and good rigs. not to mention speedproblems stil exist. unlikely to hit anything double webbed. making ravens like blasterboats without tackle...wow great.
Originally by: Cambarus Sensor damps reduced massively in effectiveness (by about 50%) HUGE gallente recon nerf.
did i mention those hit EVERY TIME?
Originally by: Cambarus Second nano nerf. Many matari (as well as some gallente + amarr) ships become far less useful in pvp.
More than neccessary. stil crippling missiles the same time reduces the benefit for those who use them *to nothingness*.
Originally by: Cambarus Those who were paying attention...
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Xroxor
Minmatar Blood-Storm CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:32:00 -
[381]
13mil SP's in missiles! I already cancled my main and 2 alt accounts.. Im tired of the damn nerf bats! |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:36:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Xroxor 13mil SP's in missiles! I already cancled my main and 2 alt accounts.. Im tired of the damn nerf bats!
Goodbye i'll miss you. Shame you couldn't keep up. |
Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:51:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Xroxor 13mil SP's in missiles! I already cancled my main and 2 alt accounts.. Im tired of the damn nerf bats!
Can I have your stuff? No seriously, your stuff.
TIA
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Goyda
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:51:00 -
[384]
quote=Cambarus]I think I'm going to go and post this in al;l the missile whine threads, because TBFH it needs to be said:
Well let's look at the nerfs and some buffs of the last year or so, and see how caldari compares to other races:
Tier II BCs introduced, caldari and gallente both get a BC capable of fielding >BS sized tanks. Nice Buff IMO (though they later get nerfed a bit, they still field awesome tanks)
Have to remember on this 'boost' when you're shooting at caldari you start off at 'f1' pounding on their tank, with armor tankers you have to bust through their shields first THEN start hitting their tank. While the shields do go down pretty quick they are still there giving vital seconds of pounding your tank before you even begin to damage theirs. So they have guns and it eats cap....there is a balance. With the not the intended target thing.. I disagree with this, but it's been said to nausea here and I won't belabor it. I disagree with it, but hey it is what it is, will it be the end of me playing, I doubt it, I have my cerb and drake and I can always put heavy missles on my raven. :)
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:51:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Xroxor 13mil SP's in missiles! I already cancled my main and 2 alt accounts.. Im tired of the damn nerf bats!
Goodbye i'll miss you. Shame you couldn't keep up.
Keep up with what? Making missiles something to laugh at? Yep, hard to keep up with that.. good thing most of the rest trained guns early on..
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Faye Valerii
Caldari Exeunt Omnes
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:54:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
This is actually how combat was meant to be since the outset, but things got a bit muddled in the last two years : )
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:58:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Faye Valerii
This is actually how combat was meant to be since the outset, but things got a bit muddled in the last two years : )
This. Rock Paper Scissors.
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.21 19:59:00 -
[388]
I would only argue that they need to balance laz0rs if they're going to keep the missile changes.
A pulse zealot would melt that ishkur as long as it wasn't orbiting w/ an AB. A HM fit cerb has absolutely no chance at killing it. Both are HACS with cruiser size weapons.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.21 22:55:00 -
[389]
Edited by: MenanceWhite on 21/11/2008 23:02:47 Edited by: MenanceWhite on 21/11/2008 22:57:12 Funny thing this topic hits 12+ pages and I've yet to see a proper missiles were overnerfed argument that can't be countered by stop being an idiot.
Also, yes but HM cerb has longer range than a zealot and keeps that damage over all the range. Scales are balanced. Your point is?
I think I'll let my old main post: |
Leyvan
Stand Vyritza
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Posted - 2008.11.21 23:07:00 -
[390]
Edited by: Leyvan on 21/11/2008 23:10:50 Hey. 14m SP in caldari ships and missiles here. I've killed a few AFs and frigs here with my caracal. I was fitted with assault launchers. A type of cruiser sized launcher that fires light missiles. HOLY FREAKING GOD NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? I WAS USING ANTI FRIGATE AMMO AND KILLED FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS. I MUST BE SOME KIND OF A GENIOUS.
/e: this must be some kind of innovation. I've never seen it being mentioned before. Better copyright this tactic. I call it the 'van homosize tactic.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.22 02:05:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps.
Shortly after the patch, someone posted the killmail of a single Rifter taking out a Raven. Was a fail-fit raven, but still a frig vs bs.
Originally by: Leyvan Edited by: Leyvan on 21/11/2008 23:10:50 Hey. 14m SP in caldari ships and missiles here. I've killed a few AFs and frigs here with my caracal. I was fitted with assault launchers. A type of cruiser sized launcher that fires light missiles. HOLY FREAKING GOD NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? I WAS USING ANTI FRIGATE AMMO AND KILLED FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS. I MUST BE SOME KIND OF A GENIOUS.
/e: this must be some kind of innovation. I've never seen it being mentioned before. Better copyright this tactic. I call it the 'van homosize tactic.
OH HAY THAR! MOST PEOPLE HERE AR COMPLAINING ABOUT BS LAUNCHERS, NOT CRUISES. I MUST BE SOME KIND OF GENIOUS FOR SKIMMING THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING. I SHOULD PATENT THE laFAIL SKIMMING TECHNIQUE.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.22 02:08:00 -
[392]
Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 21/11/2008 23:02:47 Edited by: MenanceWhite on 21/11/2008 22:57:12 Funny thing this topic hits 12+ pages and I've yet to see a proper missiles were overnerfed argument that can't be countered by stop being an idiot.
Also, yes but HM cerb has longer range than a zealot and keeps that damage over all the range. Scales are balanced. Your point is?
I think I'll let my old main post:
Lurk moar. Linkage
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.22 03:12:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
Quote: As it stands the explosion damage is being nerfed by the relative velocity and this does not happen IRL. Sure, this is a space game but it should reflect reality in some places and explosions are one thing that I feel should be reflected accurately.
Go back to your basic physics class. Any explosion travels outward from the source at a set speed. Travelling faster than that speed will out-run it. This is the principle of speed tanking. RL: A jet travelling faster than the speed of sound (read: interceptor) can outrun the blast of a nuclear bomb since the shockwave travels at the speed of sound.
Well, not exactly no. If a missile hits a plane the explosion travels through the plane from the point of impact. It doesn't matter what speed the plane is going. If what you were saying were accurate then a plane would be able to fly away from the impact without damage if it is traveling supersonically. This clearly isn't true as any downed interceptor pilot will tell you.
Like I stated - Shields. The point of "impact" is the shield which is an electronic device. Therefore, the kinetic damage does not transfer onto the craft.
Quote: Your point about nothing impacting in Eve seems wrong also. If there was no actual impact there would be no kinetic damage. No contact means no transference of momentum ie. no kinetic energy can be transferred to the impacted item.
Kinetic also implies Shrapnell. If a missile explodes some distance away, shrapnell would cause kinetic damage, even if the explosion itself didn't. Imagine a nail bomb as a warhead, a small explosive charge which does almost no damage but a lot of nails that do incredible damage. There's your kinetic missiles.
However, this does not detract from the point I made about shields. If the missile explodes on the shields, the damage may not hit the craft itself due to the speed of the craft and it's ability to outrun the explosive bloom or speed at which the shrapnell is thrown out.
Also, you have to remember that Eve:=RL unless you know of missiles that can do explosive damage without heat (thermal) and EM (which implies nuclear) without heat and explosive damage as well.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Swarmy McSwarmface
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Posted - 2008.11.22 04:18:00 -
[394]
I'll 88th it or whatever number were up to. I just spent HOW long griding up my missile skills (they are over 8 million sps), just to have this sh!t happen?
I love having the rug yanked from under me. I wasn't unaware they were doing it, but I had hoped/imagined that ccp would see how utterly ridiculous the changes were on the test server and NOT go through with them. I mean, really, an over 80% across the board nerfing of explosion velocity. You'd do better to hang yer ass out yer pod and launch "chocolate torpedoes" at the enemy ship. BS's should not be able to speed tank bs sized missiles. Cruise missiles are worthless now, why use a target painter (with a range of what, 40 50 km tops?) with a missile system that can hit out 200km plus? I just got a cnr before the patch, and now its so much better/easier to fly the drake.
Its not like ravens and missiles were dominating in pvp anyways. I could always sense the inward groan and roll eyes when I or anyone else fleeted up in a drake or raven. And now all the oppose ship has to do is move like 100ms or faster and they mitigate a good deal of damage? Super de duper.
Sigh. I wish I hadn't just reupped for a year in sept...
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robbyx
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Posted - 2008.11.22 06:34:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Swarmy McSwarmface I'll 88th it or whatever number were up to. I just spent HOW long griding up my missile skills (they are over 8 million sps), just to have this sh!t happen?
I love having the rug yanked from under me. I wasn't unaware they were doing it, but I had hoped/imagined that ccp would see how utterly ridiculous the changes were on the test server and NOT go through with them. I mean, really, an over 80% across the board nerfing of explosion velocity. You'd do better to hang yer ass out yer pod and launch "chocolate torpedoes" at the enemy ship. BS's should not be able to speed tank bs sized missiles. Cruise missiles are worthless now, why use a target painter (with a range of what, 40 50 km tops?) with a missile system that can hit out 200km plus? I just got a cnr before the patch, and now its so much better/easier to fly the drake.
Its not like ravens and missiles were dominating in pvp anyways. I could always sense the inward groan and roll eyes when I or anyone else fleeted up in a drake or raven. And now all the oppose ship has to do is move like 100ms or faster and they mitigate a good deal of damage? Super de duper.
Sigh. I wish I hadn't just reupped for a year in sept...
I totally agree...ive pretty much kept my mouth shut about the "missle nerf" until i had a play around with it and tried some new mods etc....one thing ive figured out is that its better to fit standard or heavy launchers than cruise launchers....cruise missles have become so niche now its not realy worth the hassle.
the new "formula" makes no sense at all...and far from balancing anything they have nerfed another race out of PvP....i can only hope CCP management see the light and fire the morons responsible for "Quantum Fail"....at the very least make sure they are never allowed near EVE game mechanics again.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.22 10:36:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Brea Lafail Lurk moar. Linkage
You linked me to a thread where they tested BS sized missiles on rat bs that was both the fastest and with smallest sig radii (drones and angels). The comment was that oh BS missiles sucks vs rats when multiple vet l4 l5 mission runners have previously stated that they're able to run their missions at same if not faster speed than before.
They did'nt even KNOW what "unguided" missiles were untill someone pointed it out much later. (hurr making tests on a weapon I dont even know about)
They were were making bull comparisons between launchers and turrets while from what I read it seems more like they've never used turrets before. That says so much about the credibility of that thread.
Your point is? ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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TooNu
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.22 10:43:00 -
[397]
When 6 Navy cruise missiles do a total of 184.6 damage against a stationary Assault frigate on a gate. About the only thing I can take out now, is a destroyer, and that takes 2 volleys. The first volley needs to be in the air without the target relising I have fired, before the second colley is away. Firing at larger craft does similar damage due to higher resistances which I understand an Assault Frigate also has. Firing at smaller ships as we all know doesn't work. Oh well.
Name: Manticore Hull: Kestrel Class Role: Stealth Bomber
Specifically engineered to fire cruise missiles, stealth bombers represent the next generation in covert ops craft. Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked - a fact which, coupled with their considerable firepower, makes them extremely dangerous in the hands of an accomplished pilot.
In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets.
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level
So many lies in 1 ship description
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.22 10:44:00 -
[398]
Edited by: MenanceWhite on 22/11/2008 10:45:03
Originally by: Brea Lafail Frig vs BS
There's plenty of comedy killmails with not only ravens getting killed by solo frigs. BS only turrets and fail tank has about 1/5000 chance of chaining wreckings to kill a frig. Which won't happen now that QR broke wreckings hits. However prepatch ravens actually had a pretty GOOD chance to kill other frigs with BS sized weapons compared to turret ships. Much butthurt over losing an advantage missile ships were'nt supposed to have?
Originally by: Brea Lafail OH HAY THAR! MOST PEOPLE HERE AR COMPLAINING ABOUT BS LAUNCHERS, NOT CRUISES. I MUST BE SOME KIND OF GENIOUS FOR SKIMMING THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING. I SHOULD PATENT THE laFAIL SKIMMING TECHNIQUE.
They're complaining about BS launchers EFFECTIVITY on ships of SMALLER SIZE. I suggest using weapons of proper size.
What was your post about again?
But SB nerf was bull. I did like to use SBs. ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Valkorsia
Caldari IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.22 10:47:00 -
[399]
Who cares? Just shoot the missiles until ships blow up. It's not hard. 15 pages of *****ing about nothing relevent if you just aim, lock and fire.
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Juan Chance
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Posted - 2008.11.22 12:39:00 -
[400]
Wait for the next nerf maybe someone will figure out all you have to do on a lvl4 in a droneboat is aggro all, set drones and go have supper this continuous nerf in the name of balance/equality goes back and forth until we are playing a game where the only difference is is the avataer and we go here and kill this and lvl up and OMG were becoming SWG the fair and balance of the game is everyone had the choice to choose there direction now its being taken away.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 12:41:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Juan Chance Wait for the next nerf maybe someone will figure out all you have to do on a lvl4 in a droneboat is aggro all, set drones and go have supper
Shhhh! Don't expose my easymode!
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Koda
Infestation. R.U.R.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 12:42:00 -
[402]
Edited by: Koda on 22/11/2008 12:42:06 I just come here to enjoy whiney mission runner tears. And i have not left disappointed
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.22 12:56:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Juan Chance Wait for the next nerf maybe someone will figure out all you have to do on a lvl4 in a droneboat is aggro all, set drones and go have supper this continuous nerf in the name of balance/equality goes back and forth until we are playing a game where the only difference is is the avataer and we go here and kill this and lvl up and OMG were becoming SWG the fair and balance of the game is everyone had the choice to choose there direction now its being taken away.
Started off coherent, but somewhere in the first sentence I think your brain fell out. Drones run missions at about the same speed as missile boats now. You can't discount the travel time between targets. I would support making the differences between classes of drones a bit stronger though. They did it for mediums, but now mediums hit the same as heavies.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.22 12:57:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Leyvan Hey. 14m SP in caldari ships and missiles here. I've killed a few AFs and frigs here with my caracal. I was fitted with assault launchers. A type of cruiser sized launcher that fires light missiles. HOLY FREAKING GOD NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? I WAS USING ANTI FRIGATE AMMO AND KILLED FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS. I MUST BE SOME KIND OF A GENIOUS.
/e: this must be some kind of innovation. I've never seen it being mentioned before. Better copyright this tactic. I call it the 'van homosize tactic.
Actually, you're not a genius... It's just that you have an ability that none of the whiners in this thread have.... The ability to adapt! You also don't have a predisposition for whining when encountering changes, but instead chose to find solutions. Neither do you seem to need to abuse unbalanced game mechanics to come out ahead in fights.
All in all, this is an uncommon set of personality traits for most people posting in here
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:02:00 -
[405]
So its OK for BS guns to not hit small ships, but missiles are underpowered become BS size missiles don't one hit frigs. Have taken time out from warfare because of real life and been doing missions, with a mix of heavy missiles cruiser missiles and med drones and lvl 4 missions are easier.
Am sorry but all these mission runners crying that they overpowered missiles got nerfed to be inline with guns is one of the reasons like the cry babies over nanos and ever other patch that CCP do that change things is the reason they don't talk as much to us as they use to and the reason we now have a Council of Stellar Management, in the old days we did not need a Council of Stellar Management because players did not cry every 2 mins.
THIS IS NOT YOUR GAME ITS CCP, yes they can do what they like and if you don't like it rage quit, the player base is slowly turning into WOW`s (/me shivers). If you don't like playing on a even field join ccs and download a bot and wtf own everyone.
Missiles are fine, adapt or die.
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BATMorpheous
Caldari The Bat Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:16:00 -
[406]
ive basically been running missions since i started in eve(as well as other stuff ov course) and have noticed no difference in the time it takes me to complete missions maybe its just the way i run them? although rat frigs take longer to kill ive noticed cruiser and battlecruiser rats drop in 2-3 vollys now so very quick i dont bother wasting cruise on frigs anyhow never have done i just let loose the hobgob 2's they can kill 8-15 frig rats in a very short space of time.
come on people less whining and more adapting. :)
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Discrodia
Gallente Independent Miners Guild
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:16:00 -
[407]
Who thinks the carebears are missile whoring Caldari? Methinks so. I like whales... I'm donating 300 mil towards an Orca BPO. Did you notice this is my sig? _______________ I mine rocks. Bigass rocks. :D
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Juan Chance
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:30:00 -
[408]
You read me wrong I know CCP can do what they want and I really careless about missles drones and gunboats the point was and is I have seen this balance/equality tactic happen in some really good games that turned to really bad outcomes I use SWG as the best example. Really great game in the beginning but in the name of balance/equality it has spiraled down to nonexhistant. Each race, ship and mod has its advantage/disadvantage each of us has the right to chose but to come along several years later and say oops we want to change this in name of balance/equality is wrong. Wait till it goes into storefronts and the balance/equality turns to new people should have what 5 year vets have then see what happens. aka starwars galaxey (now everyone can be a jedi) fly safe and enjoy it while you can
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:42:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Juan Chance You read me wrong I know CCP can do what they want and I really careless about missles drones and gunboats the point was and is I have seen this balance/equality tactic happen in some really good games that turned to really bad outcomes I use SWG as the best example. Really great game in the beginning but in the name of balance/equality it has spiraled down to nonexhistant. Each race, ship and mod has its advantage/disadvantage each of us has the right to chose but to come along several years later and say oops we want to change this in name of balance/equality is wrong. Wait till it goes into storefronts and the balance/equality turns to new people should have what 5 year vets have then see what happens. aka starwars galaxey (now everyone can be a jedi) fly safe and enjoy it while you can
The thing is you can use a drone boat, but it takes forever plus they is a good chance the rats will switch to the drones, so i don't feel that's not balanced, as for missiles they needed nerfing, ravens will never be fleet pvpv, but they still ok for small camps, but there are over good pvp options as good recons and hacs, as well as the rokh.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:49:00 -
[410]
Originally by: soulkiller3 The thing is you can use a drone boat, but it takes forever plus they is a good chance the rats will switch to the drones
Weeeeeell… until we get some proper NPC AI, I'm going to disagree with this. The chance of rats changing to the drones in next to zero — respawns my target them, but once you draw aggro on your ship, the drones are pretty much 100% safe.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:59:00 -
[411]
on the harder missions there tends to be a lot of resparwns, so you need to be there just in case, as for the weaker ones well there not that profitable so meh. But i do agree on the AI needing to be improved.
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Meeogi
Amarr Lone Star Privateers
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Posted - 2008.11.22 14:12:00 -
[412]
Rockets are total fail now...just fix them a little bit. |
Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.11.22 14:17:00 -
[413]
my missiles work fine, hitting bc for 500 dmg per volley with rage heavy assault missiles
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Novista
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Posted - 2008.11.22 19:05:00 -
[414]
Edited by: Novista on 22/11/2008 19:08:48 this nerf is so nice i love it! its a sign from above saying quit missile skills !
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Kanagawa
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Posted - 2008.11.23 03:00:00 -
[415]
I cant seem to find some info on comparisons between guns and then new rules for missiles. Been doing some reading since the patch and there are some legit reasons for some of the changes to missiles.
Here is what I seek: - Full comparison between say a blaster-mega and torp raven. To do full damage, both need their targets to be at 0 m/s, what are the formulas for damage as the velocity and sig radius changes? Does the damage decrease in a generally even rate between the two as these factors change? The mitigating factor for the two are tracking speed and explosion velocity, correct? So a blaster-mega can use tracking computers, why does the raven not have a similar mid-slot mod? Torps do have a range advantage, but I see this as a problem to be fixed. Decrease range in exchange for a explosion velocity modifying mid-slot mod.
I want a true comparison between a torp BS verse comparable turret BS's. Which situations do the two differ significantly? What is needed for true balance?
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scorp3
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Posted - 2008.11.23 03:32:00 -
[416]
ive been running missions today and have to agree that they went to far with the missile nerf....at least i started cross training amarr recently
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Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.11.23 03:45:00 -
[417]
Edited by: Lady Karma on 23/11/2008 03:51:57
Originally by: Kanagawa
I want a true comparison between a torp BS verse comparable turret BS's. Which situations do the two differ significantly? What is needed for true balance?
Hmm, torp raven hits at 30km compared to the Blaster Mega 5km optimal. Mega's damage decreases with range, given targets are at 0ms, the torp raven hits for full dps throughout range. Blaster megas do not usually have tracking comps fitted, mwd/web/injector/scram is normal midslot (WTB 5 mid slot mega, no make that 6)
You are right, missiles need to be nerfed some more
PS: Target painter
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Kanagawa
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:00:00 -
[418]
Edited by: Kanagawa on 23/11/2008 04:01:39 The insufficient range of tp's has been addressed, not comparable. Still looking for the damage formula's with speed and sig radius as factors.....thats what is needed for a true comparison.
plz, the elections are over, stop using those types of argumentative techniques.......
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BhallSpawn
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:03:00 -
[419]
Edited by: BhallSpawn on 23/11/2008 04:03:23 I think to solve this problem we should just stop training our skills. Cause no matter what CCP changes something to make the time you spent wasted.
Missles sucked before QR Now they suck even more.
Welcome to Eve-Online.
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Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:09:00 -
[420]
Edited by: Lady Karma on 23/11/2008 04:10:40
Originally by: Kanagawa
The insufficient range of Blasters has been addressed, not comparable.
Fixed your post.
Serious response, you are talking about torps. What kind of set up are you using where a torp outranges a target painter?
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:12:00 -
[421]
Quote:
You are right, missiles need to be nerfed some more
PS: Target painter
You're an diot ot troll I'm guessing, you sure as hell don't use missiles much regardless. Yeah, go ahead and jump into a Raven with a single painter and even a web and fight a Blasterboat now and see what happens.
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Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:16:00 -
[422]
Edited by: Lady Karma on 23/11/2008 04:18:01
Originally by: Lurana Lay
Quote:
You are right, missiles need to be nerfed some more
PS: Target painter
You're an diot ot troll I'm guessing, you sure as hell don't use missiles much regardless. Yeah, go ahead and jump into a Raven with a single painter and even a web and fight a Blasterboat now and see what happens.
Oh touched a nerve did we.
If you can't think of how a torp raven can kill a blaster boat with the web nerf, then you are clearly the idiot.
(stick to missions, its apparent that you don't pvp)
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Kanagawa
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:18:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Lady Karma Edited by: Lady Karma on 23/11/2008 04:10:40
Originally by: Kanagawa
The insufficient range of Blasters has been addressed, not comparable.
Fixed your post.
Serious response, you are talking about torps. What kind of set up are you using where a torp outranges a target painter?
you're right, that would of been a cruise missile issue, would like that comparison as well.... cruise verse rails, effects of tracking computers verse target painters...
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Lady Karma
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:21:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Kanagawa
you're right, that would of been a cruise missile issue, would like that comparison as well.... cruise verse rails, effects of tracking computers verse target painters...
Are you talking about missions or pvp. No one would use a blaster mega in PVE. If you mean pvp, again, why would you be fighting outside target painter range even with cruise. If you want to snipe, use rails, arties or lasers.
However, all those turrets have terrible tracking when things get under the range of the guns. Something cruise missiles never had a problem with. "Tracking" on missiles is still far better than any long range turret.
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Kanagawa
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:25:00 -
[425]
Edited by: Kanagawa on 23/11/2008 04:25:35 I guess i have to go back to the formulas and how they are setup. What affects how well a guns tracks? Just trans speed, or sig as well? Whats the ratio? And how does this compare to missiles and their use of explosion radius....
PVP
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:45:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Lady Karma
Originally by: Kanagawa
you're right, that would of been a cruise missile issue, would like that comparison as well.... cruise verse rails, effects of tracking computers verse target painters...
Are you talking about missions or pvp. No one would use a blaster mega in PVE. If you mean pvp, again, why would you be fighting outside target painter range even with cruise. If you want to snipe, use rails, arties or lasers.
However, all those turrets have terrible tracking when things get under the range of the guns. Something cruise missiles never had a problem with. "Tracking" on missiles is still far better than any long range turret.
Not having to worry about tracking was the tradeoff we got for subpar damage, non-instant damage, and all the other problems missiles had.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.23 05:04:00 -
[427]
after ccp taking our nanos from us im really enjoying this thread
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.23 05:19:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Tyremis after ccp taking our nanos from us im really enjoying this thread
C'mon, weren't you dieing to be able to fit something other than speed mods?
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Sanjuro Yojimbo
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.11.23 06:07:00 -
[429]
i agree that the nerf was too harsh, being fairly new to the game, (just over a year) and not having much combat training, missiles were a good way to go to make some dosh without having to pvp, (yes i'am a care bear) not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky, hell i couldnt even crack the tank of a bc i was shooting up, (gotta love corpie testing).
so yes please back some of the nerf off at least, there isnt 1 npc ship out there that shouldnt be killable (solo) on a lvl 4 mission with any faction.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.23 06:12:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Tyremis after ccp taking our nanos from us im really enjoying this thread
C'mon, weren't you dieing to be able to fit something other than speed mods?
im having fun adapting but i do miss my nanos
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.23 10:21:00 -
[431]
ok if missiles are so underpowered why don`t you just switch to guns??
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 10:38:00 -
[432]
Originally by: soulkiller3 ok if missiles are so underpowered why don`t you just switch to guns??
there are no gun hardpoints on caldari ships... we aren't profficient in other races unfortunatelly. We will need to train speed, armor tank, gunnery, drones, spaceship command and other skills to switch. Cost of switching are too high, can't bear in mind that our ships are worthless.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 10:53:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Opertone
Originally by: soulkiller3 ok if missiles are so underpowered why don`t you just switch to guns??
there are no gun hardpoints on caldari ships...
Sarcasm or not, this argument seems to come up a lot so I think it's time for a repost:
For your pleasure:
Non-missile ships Harpy — Hybrids. Ferox — Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion — Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Chimera — More drones than your mom can handle. Vulture — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Blackbird — Turrets + Launchers. Moa — Hybrids + Launchers + 3x Drones. Osprey — Turrets + Launchers + 4x Drones. Cormorant — Hybrids + Launcher. Falcon — Turrets + Launchers. Bantam — Turrets + 1x Drone. Merlin — Hybrids + Launchers. Eagle — Hybrids + Launchers. Badger — Turret. Bardger Mk II — Turret. Raptor — Hybrids + Launchers. Wyvern — More drones than your mom and her dog can handle.
Missile + Drone ships Drake — Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven — Missiles + 5x Drones. Widow — Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Caracal — Missiles (+ turrets) + 2x Drones. Phoenix — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Griffin — Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Heron — Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Basilisk – Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem — Missiles + 5x Drones. Leviathan — Missiles + 5x Drones.
Missile ships with turret slots Buzzard. Kitsune. Condor. Crow. Flycatcher. Manticore.
Missile-only ships Hawk. Rook. Kestrel. Cerberus. Onyx. Crane.
Of the 41 Caldari ships that can fit some kind of weapon, 23 are missile-oriented. Of those 23, 11 can field drones. Of the 12 that remain, 3 are not really combat ships and 6 can fit turrets for things the missiles can't catch. A total of 6 out of 41 ships (14%) have no option but to use missiles. Of those 6, two have better ways of ruining the enemy's day, and one isn't a combat ship. Out of the 41 ships, 20 can carry drones — 14 can field a full drone swarm.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Valandria Koshun
Caldari Atum Nocturnem
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Posted - 2008.11.23 11:06:00 -
[434]
nice overview but cut it down on the ships capable for lvl4 missions, the ist lokks little bit different
on topic: at the first days i really thought that the change was to big, but afterall i got to say its not a real problem, ive changed nothing at my cnr-setup, i just use some different imps and its goes well most of the time, if i got a mission with alot of small ships in use the drake to get them down und the raven for the bigs ships
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 11:24:00 -
[435]
Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 11:26:19
Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky...
Newsflash for you: You're not supposed to hit frigates with battleship sized weapons! Deal with it!
Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...hell i couldnt even crack the tank of a bc i was shooting up, (gotta love corpie testing).
Train target painters!
Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...there isnt 1 npc ship out there that shouldnt be killable (solo) on a lvl 4 mission with any faction.
There isn't, as long as you got proper skills and know how to fit a battleship properly! Hell, even a battlecruiser can do most L4' missions if the pilot knows what he is doing... Flying a battleship is not just a matter of training the battleship skill.....
Oh, you don't like change and challenge? Find another game then....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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xMILFx
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Posted - 2008.11.23 11:43:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Demonic Sentiment basicly missiles werent great for pvp before.. now they are basicly useless lol
I suspect CCP has a room full of people they pay a wage to called a think tank their job is to come up with ideas on how to improve the game. Some call such a think tank agressive progression. Me I call it tinkering just for the sake of it. CCP there is a saying I think you could to hart.
"if its not broken, don't fix it"
In my time in eve I have seen may nerfs and changes to the game that have been very badly thougt out sure the basic concepts and reasons behind them are sound but the application of them has resulted in some long term distruption to the games basic mecanics.
A recent example. A player could repair any ship in the game such as when two players are fighting a 3rd player could repair the shields or armor of one or both players with out any reprocutions. CCP deemed this unfair, So the CCP think tank came up with this answer to the situation. They made changes to how and when a player could rerpair another players ship. A player reapirs one of the two combatants and then automaticaly becomes a valid target of the other compatant. The baisc concept is fine but in application the repairing player could be in a battle ship and use just 1 shield bot to make the repair and then become a valid part of the fight against the other combatant. This could be expolited and in its application bring utter confusion to your basic pvp situation, which is one of the fundemental parts of the eve game.
CCP please if you are going to change the game think hard and long about how it will effect the game in the long term. With this recent nerf to missiels you effectivly made all caldari none solo pvp and then wasted counless years of skilling for PVE players. Weldone
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 11:48:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo i agree that the nerf was too harsh, being fairly new to the game, (just over a year) and not having much combat training, missiles were a good way to go to make some dosh without having to pvp, (yes i'am a care bear) not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky, hell i couldnt even crack the tank of a bc i was shooting up, (gotta love corpie testing).
so yes please back some of the nerf off at least, there isnt 1 npc ship out there that shouldnt be killable (solo) on a lvl 4 mission with any faction.
For the hundredth time: use drones.
CNCMs suck against frigates. So do 425mm rails...
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WA Dragon
Caldari 108 Field Squadron RM RE
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Posted - 2008.11.23 12:10:00 -
[438]
Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:42 Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:03
Originally by: Malcanis For the hundredth time: use drones.
CNCMs suck against frigates. So do 425mm rails...
So what your saying is a CNR would win with drones and 2 rail guns v 6 T1 Merlins.
First of all the CNR would have to fit a warp scram to hold the merlin its attacking with its drones (not enough slots for that) second the merlins would have to be kind enough not to attack the drones because that would make the CNR defencless against the merlins third rail guns miss at close range long range and inbetween ranges rail guns miss, If one of the merlins has a turret disrupter on.... yadda, yadda, yadda.
I am sure I need not go into all the details of how this nerf fouls up the basic pvp and pve aspects of the game for missile users, one thing being forgot here is the leanthy skilling times it took to become good with missiles so they could kill smaller ships all of that just got thrown away at the push of a key.
To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question? |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.23 12:14:00 -
[439]
Originally by: WA Dragon Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:42 Edited by: WA Dragon on 23/11/2008 12:11:03
Originally by: Malcanis For the hundredth time: use drones.
CNCMs suck against frigates. So do 425mm rails...
So what your saying is a CNR would win with drones and 2 rail guns v 6 T1 Merlins.
First of all the CNR would have to fit a warp scram to hold the merlin its attacking with its drones (not enough slots for that) second the merlins would have to be kind enough not to attack the drones because that would make the CNR defencless against the merlins third rail guns miss at close range long range and inbetween ranges rail guns miss, If one of the merlins has a turret disrupter on.... yadda, yadda, yadda.
I am sure I need not go into all the details of how this nerf fouls up the basic pvp and pve aspects of the game for missile users, one thing being forgot here is the leanthy skilling times it took to become good with missiles so they could kill smaller ships all of that just got thrown away at the push of a key.
So what you're saying is that 1 player should beat 6 coordinated players? Or that a rail mega would have more of a chance?
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WA Dragon
Caldari 108 Field Squadron RM RE
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Posted - 2008.11.23 12:27:00 -
[440]
Originally by: KarilleSo what you're saying is that 1 player should beat 6 coordinated players? Or that a rail mega would have more of a chance?[/quote
yes given the fact that the player has spent a long time in the game and should have eart the right to be able to own smaller ships. It should be a fundimental way of life in eve that the older you get the better you become. What your saying is a bunch of 2 day old chars could easy own a 3 year vet. Where is the reward for being such a loyal long term player in this game.
I am thinking of selling my chars and just running trial accounts with 6 mates using only merlins and activly hunting down CNR's and saving my self alot of real cash. I could exploit the buddy situation here as well hay thanks for the thought provoking (can of worms open)
To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question? |
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.23 12:39:00 -
[441]
Level 80s completely owning lower levels is NOT what this game is about. It is the opposite.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 12:41:00 -
[442]
Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 12:45:50
Originally by: Valandria Koshun nice overview but cut it down on the ships capable for lvl4 missions, the ist lokks little bit different
Ok…
Non-missile ships Ferox — Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion — Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Vulture — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Eagle — Hybrids + Launchers.
Missile + Drone ships Drake — Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven — Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem — Missiles + 5x Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus.
Of the 10 Caldari ships that are L4 mission-capable, 5 are missile-oriented. Of those 5, 4 can field drones and 2 of those use cruiser-sized weapons so drones aren't even that necessary. The one missile-only that remain also uses cruiser weapons and can therefore also handle small ships with relative ease already. Out of the 10 ships, 8 can carry drones and all of those can field a full drone swarm.
…and that's without considering some of the (admittedly sillier) setups that would use capships in open-space lowsec L4s or overtanked T1 combat cruiser or T2 support cruisers.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 12:52:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 12:45:50
Originally by: Valandria Koshun nice overview but cut it down on the ships capable for lvl4 missions, the ist lokks little bit different
Okà
Non-missile ships Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion ù Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers.
Missile + Drone ships Drake ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem ù Missiles + 5x Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus.
Of the 10 Caldari ships that are L4 mission-capable, 5 are missile-oriented. Of those 5, 4 can field drones and 2 of those use cruiser-sized weapons so drones aren't even that necessary. The one missile-only that remain also uses cruiser weapons and can therefore also handle small ships with relative ease already. Out of the 10 ships, 8 can carry drones and all of those can field a full drone swarm.
àand that's without considering some of the (admittedly sillier) setups that would use capships in open-space lowsec L4s or overtanked T1 combat cruiser or T2 support cruisers.
And, speaking from personal knowledge, a QR Cerb works great for ratting. Yes, even the little frigates.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.11.23 12:52:00 -
[444]
My alt is running lv4's right now, in a CNR, having no issues whatsoever. No different fittings. No TP. But then again, I'm fighting ships at 100km+ and using cruise missiles, and her drone skills is great.
Gotta admit I will train up the Dominix too, as complement (for missions with alot of t2 ships), but I already had the drone skills. And frankly, I had drone support at 4 and t2 drones before I even bothered with t2 missiles.
Priorities. Some guys just want to lock themselves into a corner, while others want to be versatile. And I just dislike the idea of having to rely, even post-QR, on my missiles to keep me safe from scrambling frigs. Plus, cruise launchers are nice to have on those ships that just spawned 120km from me. Target painter? They died before they reached me anyway!
I'd probably be ****ed if I was using t2 torps with mediocre droneskills right now, but then again, I hate to lock myself into a corner. Plus it's just a week or two to get decent t1 cruise launchers with good drone skills. Your damage will go down but you will gain versability.
Plus, it's pretty silly to think that torps should hit frigsized ships. I'd love it if my Tachyon II's would pop frigates at any range and non-webbed as well. I'd have to chose engagement range, crystals, possible ewar (web etc) and still I end up using drones for small ships in the Paladin anyway.
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Togg Bott
Minmatar 801
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Posted - 2008.11.23 13:45:00 -
[445]
OH and NERF Nanos.....wait
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.23 14:18:00 -
[446]
Am still not seeing a valid reason missiles are not balanced now, just people crying that they one type of missile cant kill everything. That is not how eve works and you can cry and cry on the forums as much as you like, and CCP will not take notice as no one is brining up a reason why its not balanced, you have other options for killing frigs, drones, heveys and hell even but 2 220`s or 2 blasters on your spare 2 high slots on a raven, or even put on a smart bomb.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 14:33:00 -
[447]
Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 14:35:56
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 11:26:19
Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky...
Newsflash for you: You're not supposed to hit frigates with battleship sized weapons! Deal with it!
The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right?
Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:09:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right?
Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
So you would be okay with never being able to hit a moving frigate inside of 40km? Sounds like you need to train for rails.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:10:00 -
[449]
Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 15:12:05
Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right?
Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
Turret ships can hit them when static and so can missile ships. Missile ships can hit them at speed when using MWD and turret ships can't. Turret ships can't hit them at all when at short range and at any speed, while missiles are unaffected.
Who's best?
Stop your crying. Both types have advantages and disadvantages. Your whining that you want the advantages of BOTH types is rather selfish, not to mention game-breakingly foolish...
EDIT: Added point from above post...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:11:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right?
Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
Turret ships can hit them when static and so can missile ships, missile ships can hit them at speed when using MWD and turret ships can't.
Who's best?
Stop your crying. Both types have advantages and disadvantages. Your whining that you want the advantages of BOTH types is rather selfish, not to mention game-breakingly foolish...
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DownTwisTeD
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:14:00 -
[451]
welp, when i seen my ravens torps not hitting anything over 30km then doing no damage over 30 to ai frigs i just started laffing my head off then turned it around and parked it..
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:17:00 -
[452]
Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:20:23 Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:18:50
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right?
Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
So you would be okay with never being able to hit a moving frigate inside of 40km? Sounds like you need to train for rails.
As it is now lobbing cruise missiles at a frig within 250 km is a waste of ammo , so all about the dronebay.
Take a turretbased ship and fire at long or extreme ranges and you might one volley the same frig.
As for some said about the MWD effect, to hit a frigate for meaningfull damage means using cruisersized weapons or frigatesized ones.
Try killing any frigatesetup that includes somekind of regen module with cruise missiles or torpedoes and you will fail.
And you know the fun part , missiles still have their classic drawbacks , flight time , extremly affected by target velocity with no way to compensate, etc .
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:21:00 -
[453]
Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 15:21:05
Originally by: Hyveres Try killing any frigatesetup that includes somekind of regen module with cruise missiles or torpedoes and you will fail.
You SHOULD fail! FYI, torps are intended for battleship sized targets. If you want to shoot frigates, fit the proper weapons!
Mr. Waa-waa-I-want-things-broken-again-so-I-can-play-EVE-on-easy-mode... stop crying. The games weapon types are now reasonably balanced, AS THEY SHOULD BE!
Btw, I fly missile ships
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:22:00 -
[454]
Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:24:20 Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:23:45
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 15:21:05
Originally by: Hyveres Try killing any frigatesetup that includes somekind of regen module with cruise missiles or torpedoes and you will fail.
You SHOULD fail! FYI, torps are intended for battleship sized targets. If you want to shoot frigates, fit the proper weapons!
Mr. Waa-waa-I-want-things-broken-again-so-I-can-play-EVE-on-easy-mode... stop crying. The games weapon types are now reasonably balanced, AS THEY SHOULD BE!
Btw, I fly missile ships
So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
Or are them hitting the frigates ok?
And tbh since you are an obvious PvPer I dont see the point in arguing with you , missiles got a PvP buff and a PvE nerf. While rockets(and only rockets) became useless for anything except killing drones.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:23:00 -
[455]
Originally by: soulkiller3 Am still not seeing a valid reason missiles are not balanced now, just people crying that they one type of missile cant kill everything. That is not how eve works and you can cry and cry on the forums as much as you like, and CCP will not take notice as no one is brining up a reason why its not balanced, you have other options for killing frigs, drones, heveys and hell even but 2 220`s or 2 blasters on your spare 2 high slots on a raven, or even put on a smart bomb.
Actually my Raven carries more than one type of torpedo at all times, and the one type of missile I was using before is a lot less effective against targets moving at 0 speed that are the same class of ship, yes I can take out a midslot item to fit a target painter ( btw you do realise that the optimal range on a target painter is outside the range of my torpedoes), and sacrifice some more shield, so fit a web as well and take some more tank out, which has basically halved the tank on my short range battleship.
And yet my Gallente pilot still fits the same midslots ( web, scram and booster ) which I cant fit on my Caldari ship if I want to keep the same tank as my mega fit on gallente pilot, the same lowslots and gets the same damage...........I mean it really is way too much to ask for them to be able to compete equally after all they are both 2nd tier battle ships. Caldari Character has more skill points invested in That particular ship than my gallente has on his mega
People keep on mentioning drones as well for caldari ships, sure they can fit 5 drones, try fitting 5 heavy drones in a raven.
IF these balance changes had affected my Gallente Character as much as my Caldari Character and I thought they were equalising all race ships I wouldnt be on this forum posting.
Why should I have to retrain my Caldari Character when I will not have to for any of my other Race character, Minnie, Amarr, and Gallente? |
Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:25:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Hyveres So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
If by "nerf" you mean "remove optimal and allow them to hit at any range" then sure.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:26:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hyveres So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
If by "nerf" you mean "remove optimal and allow them to hit at any range" then sure.
And make their damage dependant on target velocity vs sig radius ofc :)
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:26:00 -
[458]
frigs should not have a free pass against BS in the way they do..
a BS is a BS and should not be so vulnerable to frig attacks like they are.
i WONT the ability to cut frigs off from fleet so they cant ambush me as easy as they do now in a BS.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:28:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 15:30:02
Originally by: Odessima People keep on mentioning drones as well for caldari ships, sure they can fit 5 drones, try fitting 5 heavy drones in a raven.
People are mentioning drones for the purpose of hittting things that your cruises/torps can't deal with. Why on earth would you want to use heavies for that purpose?
…oh, and 75m¦/75Mbps combo means you can field the multi-efficient 1+2+2 combo. Try it.
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hyveres So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
If by "nerf" you mean "remove optimal and allow them to hit at any range" then sure.
And make their damage dependant on target velocity vs sig radius ofc :)
You mean the way it already is? Sure!
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:34:00 -
[460]
TBH frigs is just a side argument. Since there are only 1 situation where I will use battleship sized missiles vs frigates.
The main complaint from missileusers is being tanked by battleships , at any range and problems doing meaningfull damage towards cruisers at any range.
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:43:00 -
[461]
Originally by: WA Dragon
So what your saying is a CNR would win with drones and 2 rail guns v 6 T1 Merlins.
Just out of interest (because I have no axe to grind regarding the patch) where did this idea come from that 1 player in a large ship was supposed to be able to beat 6 players in a small ship just because his ship is expensive? Because I'd have thought that the opposite is the way Eve ought to work, being as how it's a multiplayer game an' all.
But gee, I wouldn't know, I've only been playing this game for two and half months. Maybe instead of having exciting battles we can just compare the contents of each other's wallets, like IRL.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.23 16:05:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 23/11/2008 15:30:02
Originally by: Odessima People keep on mentioning drones as well for caldari ships, sure they can fit 5 drones, try fitting 5 heavy drones in a raven.
People are mentioning drones for the purpose of hittting things that your cruises/torps can't deal with. Why on earth would you want to use heavies for that purpose?
àoh, and 75m¦/75Mbps combo means you can field the multi-efficient 1+2+2 combo. Try it.
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hyveres So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
If by "nerf" you mean "remove optimal and allow them to hit at any range" then sure.
And make their damage dependant on target velocity vs sig radius ofc :)
You mean the way it already is? Sure!
Actually the mix of drones I have works fine, but then again I am not currently using a raven to PVE, and 1+2+2 combination isnt very effective in my situation at all but thankyou for pointing out that. Its about as balancing as removing optimals off energy weapons. But seeing as it is quite obvious that all equivelent Battleships dont have the same drone bays and bonus's it is quite pointless including them unless of course you think that they are equal across all races, and of course I accept that Caldari arent the Drone Race. But please allow that Caldari Missile boats are suppossed to have an aspect that they excel in the same way that every other race does. |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 18:58:00 -
[463]
Originally by: Hyveres So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
Or are them hitting the frigates ok?
Got some news for you... BS sized guns don't hit frigates at all when they're in close and keep up transversal....
Again, this is the part that is too complex for you to understand, that each weapon type has advantages and disadvantages.
Originally by: Hyveres And tbh since you are an obvious PvPer I dont see the point in arguing with you , missiles got a PvP buff and a PvE nerf. While rockets(and only rockets) became useless for anything except killing drones.
I PvP and PvE with missiles... In neither have I seen any big deterioration of capabilities because: a. I use the missiles intended for the targets I shoot! b. I fit my ship for the task I'm about to do! c. I've trained other skills than BS sized missiles!
In fact, my PvE efficiency seem to have gone UP a bit since the changes...
Stop crying.... or maybe not... Your tears are entertaining. It is not often one see such a degree of not being able to adapt...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 19:01:00 -
[464]
Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 19:04:25
Originally by: OffBeaT frigs should not have a free pass against BS in the way they do..
a BS is a BS and should not be so vulnerable to frig attacks like they are.
i WONT the ability to cut frigs off from fleet so they cant ambush me as easy as they do now in a BS.
You're wrong! Battleships that goes out without a proper escort SHOULD die (horribly) to a frig gang!
This is CCP guiding principle behind the battleship: "The battleship isn't, nor was it ever intended to be, a solowtfpwnmobile!"
...which makes whatever you think a BS should or should not be completely irrelevant!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 19:04:00 -
[465]
Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 19:03:54
Originally by: Odessima People keep on mentioning drones as well for caldari ships, sure they can fit 5 drones, try fitting 5 heavy drones in a raven.
Why do you want to fit heavy drones in a Raven? You already got torps or cruises to kill battleships (which is what heavy drones are good for).
On a Raven you carry 5 light and 5 medium drones. The lights to kill frigates, and the mediums to kill cruisers. ...much more efficient than heavies....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 19:09:00 -
[466]
Originally by: OffBeaT frigs should not have a free pass against BS in the way they do..
They don't. Battleships have plenty of weapon systems available to them that can mess smaller ships up something fierce.
Quote: a BS is a BS and should not be so vulnerable to frig attacks like they are.
How vulnerable are we talking here? Also, why shouldn't they? "Just because" is an feeble reason. |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.23 19:45:00 -
[467]
Originally by: Kerfira Got some news for you... BS sized guns don't hit frigates at all when they're in close and keep up transversal....
Originally by: Kerfira when they're in close and keep up transversal....
Originally by: Kerfira transversal
Pray tell, what advantage do missiles gain over projectiles to make up for transversal not having any effect?
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 19:54:00 -
[468]
Originally by: Brea Lafail Pray tell, what advantage do missiles gain over projectiles to make up for transversal not having any effect?
Say what?
Why would they get additional advantages to "make up for" the advantage of not being affected by transversal? Or did you confuse transversal with speed in general?
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
J'oorus
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:21:00 -
[469]
/sign As this is my only source of dps .. as a starting Caldari missile pilot I feel like the my feet have been cut from underneath me .. and without any crutch to fall back on ...
This is very bad .. at least give us a few skillups in Gunnery for free .. for the time we spent training a bunch of skills that are now next to useless.
J'oorus
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KhamEee Kazee
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:23:00 -
[470]
(My views, mainly from a PvE perspective) I for one think they went not just too far, but way too far with the nerfing of missiles. Missiles used to be effective, even with low SP for PvE/Missions, and on the very low end of of DPS for PvP, but had the advantage of not having to get close or worry about tracking to deal that low'ish damage. Which IMO was a completely fair tradeoff. Now Cruise missiles utterly suck compared to turrets for missions. Why? There's waay too many small targets on level 4 missions, and even vs. Battleships cruise missiles wont even do decent dmg if they move too fast. Same with heavy missiles vs. other cruisers, they do a whopping 30-35% less dmg now due to the dmg reduction even low speeds cause.
After QR I've completely shelved my CNR due to frustrations over the uselessness of Cruise missiles, and now only run missions in my Turretboats which are now roughly 20% faster than my CNR, where it used to be the CNR that was 20-30% faster.
In my experience the missile nerf seems rushed and not well tested at all.
Example: Cruise missile base explosion velocity = 69 meters pr. second. C-4 has an explosion velocity of around 8000 meters pr. second. So cruise missiles in EvE explode 115 times slower than C-4 (Slower than any explosive on the planet today, and 3 times slower than your average BB gun shoots). Yeah, yeah I know, can't compare like that, but tbh it just shows how rushed the change was, and how NOT thoroughly it was thought through before implementing it.
If missiles needed a nerf so they wouldn't be overpowered after nerfing nanofittings, it should NOT have been done like this. CCP, IMO needs to go back to the drawing board and redo the changes so they at least make some sense. Nerfs are fine as long as they're needed. But making something almost useless is not just a nerf, it's just plain foolishness. |
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:30:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Brea Lafail Pray tell, what advantage do missiles gain over projectiles to make up for transversal not having any effect?
Missile users can choose damage type freely...
Missiles hit MWD'ing ships EXTREMELY hard...
Missiles are generally long ranged...
Missiles are generally high damage (if you know what you're doing)...
Need more???
...whiner... all too willing to only see the disadvantages and ignore the advantages.... ADAPT!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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KhamEee Kazee
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:31:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 15:21:05
Originally by: Hyveres Try killing any frigatesetup that includes somekind of regen module with cruise missiles or torpedoes and you will fail.
You SHOULD fail! FYI, torps are intended for battleship sized targets. If you want to shoot frigates, fit the proper weapons!
Mr. Waa-waa-I-want-things-broken-again-so-I-can-play-EVE-on-easy-mode... stop crying. The games weapon types are now reasonably balanced, AS THEY SHOULD BE!
Btw, I fly missile ships
And torps do ~40% less dmg, even on battleships if the targeted ship barely just starts moving. Another thing - My 425mm rails instapop 90% of all the frigates on level 4's, while my Cruise CNR barely scratches frigs with cruise missiles now. Same with cruisers, 1 volley from a Navy Mega easily pops cruisers instantly, while the CNR needs 3 volleys to take down cruisers now even with Cruise lvl 5 + 5% cruise dmg hardwiring. I just have to ask... Where's that balance you're talking about? |
My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:33:00 -
[473]
Well, to a certain degree i have changed my opinion on the missile changes over the last feww weeks. when i first logged on after the patch i had a few missions in a row that had elite frigs included in the lineup also i had not adapted my fit to take advantage of the new mechanics.
i have noticed that there are raven pilots who say "im fine its working well" and others who are "omg this nerf is horrific". the conclusion i have come to is that CCP have scaled the missiles effectivness directly proportional to the skill training you have in missiles (just like it is for gunners) - the higher skilled missile boat captians are generally feeling ok about the changes where the lower skilled ones are having an emotional time right now. i have noticed a great improvment in my own damage against frigs from changing my fitting a little and getting my precision skills up and other missile support skills up as well. in fact in general i feel that im getting better hits on frigs than i used to before - particuly when i have them webbed.
my advise to other pilots who are having trouble with frigs - fit a web, get a faction one that does about 14k range they are not too expensive really. forget painters, if you are hitting a frig for about 12hp each cruise a painter will only give you only an extra 3hp per hit not worth the slot really. a web however will more than double your damage on a frig as long as its in range. another thing i do is try lock the frigs way before they get to me many many of then employ a mwd when closing range. you get your best hits at this point. most of the time i manage to kill them before they reach orbit.
drones - should be used spareingly imo, and definatly set them to passive - they have a tallent for going after spawn triggers and since you have been obliged to weaken your tank a bit to "adapt" this can be a bad thing. usually if the small frigs are not webbing or scramming me ill leave them till last and then once i have all most if the big stuff killed i'll pop out the drones and let them go for it. Good for emergencies to get rid of a scrammer fast if needed - bad for getting entire pocket agro.
imo the approach vector of target and missile should be taken into account. i can see how a fast target might outrubn the explosion behind them. but taking a missile right down your throat should hurt. i am not an experienced gunner but i understand even a 1400 howie can get a mighty shot on a frig thats coming directly in a straight line. is that true?
it seems sometimes as if CCP are trying to introduce range penalties for missiles just like guns. by making us obliged to use webbers and painters for optimal damage these mods are range limited. but the way i see it curently is im going to get great damage in close if i have a webber and painter on my target - ok damage in the mid range with just my painter and pretty **** poor damage at greater range - (im talking about AB'ing targets because lets face ti AB's are the new black. by oppperating an afterburner at greater than web range allows you to mitigate over 50% of a missile damage). if we are to be range/damage balanced i think its apropriate for missiles to have a chance at getting critical/wrecking hits.
as it is its generally accepted that missiles are the red headded stepson in the pvp world. guns are the much prefered weapon of choice which only points to a glaring imbalance in the pvp arena.
god i ramble on
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:35:00 -
[474]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee (My views, mainly from a PvE perspective)....
You do not have enough SP to run L4's!
Train drones! Train target painters! Problem solved!
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee Missiles used to be effective, even with low SP for PvE/Missions
Missiles should not be easier to use for PvE than other weapon systems. That they WERE was a game design error. It has been corrected. Deal with it!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:40:00 -
[475]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee And torps do ~40% less dmg, even on battleships if the targeted ship barely just starts moving.
Ehhh, no.... My Torp Golem kills BS FASTER than before, even fast angels....
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee Another thing - My 425mm rails instapop 90% of all the frigates on level 4's
Not if they get close... Again read above posts about advantages and disadvantages, you know... transversal and all...
You choose to see the negatives (and expand them) and ignore the positives... You choose scenarios where guns are at their best, and compare with scenarios where missiles are at their worst... Argumenting that way just means you look like a 'tard...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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KhamEee Kazee
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:45:00 -
[476]
Edited by: KhamEee Kazee on 23/11/2008 20:46:28
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee (My views, mainly from a PvE perspective)....
You do not have enough SP to run L4's!
Train drones! Train target painters! Problem solved!
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee Missiles used to be effective, even with low SP for PvE/Missions
Missiles should not be easier to use for PvE than other weapon systems. That they WERE was a game design error. It has been corrected. Deal with it!
SP : 34.8 million (11.2M Spaceship Command, 9M Gunnery, 5.1M missiles etc.)... SP ain't the problem, nor is doing missions fast. The problem is that the nerf is totally out outta whack. Caldari had the upperhand in PvE, and was the last pick for PvP except for EW ofc. Now they have more disadvantages for PvE compared to turretboats, and they suck even more for PvP than ever before...
CNR, Kronos, Nightmare, Nighthawk pilot... Yeah I'm mainly a Carebear, so shoot me, but I have insight in how the different ships performed, and perform compared to each other after QR. All I'm saying is that the missile nerf made Caldari pretty much "useless" for everything except E-War. The "good in PvE - Worse in PvP" used the be the tradeoff. And they had the lowest dps of all the races too, cept maybe for the torp raven. Caldari is now the ubergimp race of EvE, and IMO it's not balanced at all. Worse than ever before tbh. |
KhamEee Kazee
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:51:00 -
[477]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee And torps do ~40% less dmg, even on battleships if the targeted ship barely just starts moving.
Ehhh, no.... My Torp Golem kills BS FASTER than before, even fast angels....
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee Another thing - My 425mm rails instapop 90% of all the frigates on level 4's
Not if they get close... Again read above posts about advantages and disadvantages, you know... transversal and all...
You choose to see the negatives (and expand them) and ignore the positives... You choose scenarios where guns are at their best, and compare with scenarios where missiles are at their worst... Argumenting that way just means you look like a 'tard...
You had the missile nerf + the Golems explo velocity bonus nerfed in half (10 -> 5% pr. level) and you claim to kill BS's faster now than before?... Makes no sense, nor does calling me a tard for stating my oppinions. I fly pretty much any ship worth doing missions in (Except a torp Golem and Paladin)... I know the advantages and disadvantages of turrets vs. missiles perfectly, but 90% of the level 4 missions - Frigs spawn in perfect range to instapop them with turrets before you ever have to even think about using your drones. |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.23 23:18:00 -
[478]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee You had the missile nerf + the Golems explo velocity bonus nerfed in half (10 -> 5% pr. level) and you claim to kill BS's faster now than before?...
Most battleships dies faster than before. Where they might have taken 4-5 salvos before they now take 4, or similarly... I've not even changed fittings. Golem (Marauder level 4) with 1 PWNAGE painter...
The changes in the missile damage calculation seem to benefit killing BS at least with torps. BC's are generally still 1-volley jobs, and cruisers (apart from T2's) are mostly the same, except some which're much faster (1-volley instead of 3...). Admittedly this is with 12m SP in missiles, and decent drone and painter skills.
The only difference I really see is that torps can't handle T2 frigs anymore (they still handle T1 frigs well). I rarely shot them with torps anyway before...
All in all, my guesstimate is that I do missions ~5% faster than before... I don't have any hard figures for this, but that's how it feels. Some of this might be caused by having to actually pay attention now to your drones, where it was easy-mode before.
Even against Angel BS/BC/CR I still do them faster than before, despite the fact that their speed is high.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.23 23:44:00 -
[479]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee You had the missile nerf + the Golems explo velocity bonus nerfed in half (10 -> 5% pr. level) and you claim to kill BS's faster now than before?... Makes no sense
There's been multiple posts saying that velocity vs explo vel now is a minor factor compared to sig comparison in the missile damage formula, which you did'nt even know about that and yet you argument about the missile changes and post as if your "opinions" were hard facts? Makes no sense.
---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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BhallSpawn
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Posted - 2008.11.24 00:51:00 -
[480]
Edited by: BhallSpawn on 24/11/2008 00:51:09 caldari have sucked for pvp for a long time now they suck at pve too
way to go ccp you took the majority race in all of eve and made them not fun.
nice job.
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Wyn Pharoh
Gallente Crystalline INC The Black Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 01:26:00 -
[481]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee Edited by: KhamEee Kazee on 23/11/2008 20:54:22
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee (My views, mainly from a PvE perspective)....
SP : 34.8 million (11.2M Spaceship Command, 9M Gunnery, 5.1M missiles etc.)... SP ain't the problem, nor is doing missions fast. The problem is that the nerf is totally out outta whack. Caldari had the upperhand in PvE, and was the last pick for PvP except for EW ofc... ---
Since I followed an older players advice and trained Drones first, I'm going to say that in a lot of ways it IS a SP problem. You are comparing your Gunnery to the effectiveness of your Missile output, and have nearly twice the amout of SP's in Gunnery? Any idea why the missiles SHOULD under perform here? Gunnery is complicated, prepatch, missiles were not. They could hit anything, 100% effective and apparently where so effective, many missile boat pilots are unaware that they have secondary weapon systems. Yes, using those drones in the drone bay may require some training and learning how to use them may take some time, and a refresh course on Kill Mission Survival Guides, but if not, I know people that will buy your ships.
In many missions, I can pop a few frigs at range with rails, but rarely all of them without drone support. T2 light drones are not that much of an investment in time, and perform better now for their intended role than ever before. Their mobility and now their tracking/dps are edging out my Mediums, and that's for cruisers as well as frigs now.
...except for EW ofc... Keep em coming, always a welcome addition to the gang, and probably not likely to get the nerfbat (again) anytime soon, as your right, best reason to train Caldari. In PvP terms, the combination of speed and missiles 100% effectiveness was absurd. The minimal training required was absurd (in relative terms to non-speedtank/non missile dps fits). The isk invested, well sure, lots of it, but no other fit benefited in any way in proportion to the same amount of isk invested. Now missiles perform with actual drawbacks, like other weapon systems have. People will playtest and Eve will evolve again. Smash the State...and Have A Nice Day!!! |
KhamEee Kazee
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Posted - 2008.11.24 01:56:00 -
[482]
Edited by: KhamEee Kazee on 24/11/2008 02:01:22
Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 23/11/2008 23:54:25
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee You had the missile nerf + the Golems explo velocity bonus nerfed in half (10 -> 5% pr. level) and you claim to kill BS's faster now than before?... Makes no sense
There's been multiple posts saying that velocity vs explo vel now is a minor factor compared to sig comparison in the missile damage formula, which you did'nt even know about that and yet you argument about the missile changes and post as if your "opinions" were hard facts? Makes no sense.
/e: 40% damage drop? would that be because of the new explo. vel? oh please EFTwarrioring with the old missile formula much? So much for credibility.
This was me in my Navy Mega vs. my CEO playing around in a torpfitted Scorp. Sitting still getting hit for 219 vs. moving getting hit for 144, which is why in my first post I stated it was primarily PvE related, but not solely. Roughly a 40%'ish dmg difference from sitting still -> moving. This was from some random tests we did of various types of missiles vs. different targets at different speeds to see how much speed/sig radius had to say right after QR was implemented. FYI : Only thing I use EFT for is to see if setups fit PG/CPU wise and to see if my PvE boats are cap stable. |
Tobin Shalim
Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 04:50:00 -
[483]
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Mallikan Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
quoting for emphasis.
i have noticed the same thing myself, in tests i've done. -----
Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.11.24 04:52:00 -
[484]
Quote: This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
You're doing it wrong? Because that's the only reason which would explain why my torp raven kick's the crap out of a drake's DPS anyday ---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 07:07:00 -
[485]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee
This was me in my Navy Mega vs. my CEO playing around in a torpfitted Scorp. Sitting still getting hit for 219 vs. moving getting hit for 144, which is why in my first post I stated it was primarily PvE related, but not solely. Roughly a 40%'ish dmg difference from sitting still -> moving. This was from some random tests we did of various types of missiles vs. different targets at different speeds to see how much speed/sig radius had to say right after QR was implemented. Tested heavy missiles vs. cruiser sized ships too... Nighthawk vs. Vagabond, and sitting still it gets pounded... 1100+ m/s @ T2 10mn AB (Yeah AB -.-) and it reduces the dmg A LOT. You say speed is a minor factor in the dmg formula... Our tests say otherwise though. Sig radius might be a bigger factor, but speed alone will reduce incoming missile dmg by enormous amounts alone. FYI : Only thing I use EFT for is to see if setups fit PG/CPU wise and to see if my PvE boats are cap stable.
With the afterburner on, outside of about 17km the torp raven has more dps than a blasterthron. Without the afterburner on it does more dps at about 12.6km. Falloff range is a huge *****.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:56:00 -
[486]
i think ccp went too far... my minnie ships cant tank any missle ship now, let alone those kinetic bonuses
no, no sarcasm; too little powergrid, cap or slots to fit an active tank on there, let alone an afterburner next to the necessary MWD. all we have now is the muninn, using range as a "tank" - it requires a perfect claymore before one can start profiting from matari-typical signatures....
there's one niche though: ganking mission runners in their plexes - the only pvp place that doesnt have MWD. - putting the gist back into logistics |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:02:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Mallikan Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
quoting for emphasis.
i have noticed the same thing myself, in tests i've done.
You're doing it wrong.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:59:00 -
[488]
it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:06:00 -
[489]
Originally by: mattbucci it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
Drop the web drones, use the damage drones, don't shoot torps and cruises at frigs and cruisers. Problem solved.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:08:00 -
[490]
ccp u make me wanna cry. I am not the only one i know consitering quiting now. Quite a few of us are all missle based i know a 3 year old player who is quiting due to this patch. Why i ask do you have to so drasticaly alter the game? why? what did we do? speed tanking is an exception to the rules of the game pretty much and an extreme case and i can see the reason. but why for the love of god why do you nerf our missles? it's not like my torps had the greatest range pre-patch(20km) and the damage is not instant it takes ages for it to hit the target. Torps and PVE was our only reason for still using missles! Why oh why would u take that away. haven't u ever heard the phase "if it an't broke don't fix it"?
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Pretzel Spark
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:11:00 -
[491]
TBH.
A bit annoying, but I'll live. Torps/cruises still do respectable amounts of damage against bs's (though a painter is a must now i guess), heavies are still excellent except against frigates, which besides are like thin pinatas to light drones.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:11:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: mattbucci it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
Drop the web drones, use the damage drones, don't shoot torps and cruises at frigs and cruisers. Problem solved.
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:12:00 -
[493]
Originally by: mattbucci
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: mattbucci it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
Drop the web drones, use the damage drones, don't shoot torps and cruises at frigs and cruisers. Problem solved.
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
btw that's with the paint on
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Uncle Smokey
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:16:00 -
[494]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I haven't had much difficulty.
.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. \o/ EVERYBODY SAY HELL YEAH! \o/ |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:24:00 -
[495]
Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:26:00 -
[496]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty liker players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
...pve was pretty much the only reason i didn't cross-train...which is exactly my point...it's quite annoying to rat now
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:26:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:37:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
FINISH HIM! ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:37:00 -
[499]
Originally by: Odessima
Originally by: soulkiller3 Am still not seeing a valid reason missiles are not balanced now, just people crying that they one type of missile cant kill everything. That is not how eve works and you can cry and cry on the forums as much as you like, and CCP will not take notice as no one is brining up a reason why its not balanced, you have other options for killing frigs, drones, heveys and hell even but 2 220`s or 2 blasters on your spare 2 high slots on a raven, or even put on a smart bomb.
Actually my Raven carries more than one type of torpedo at all times, and the one type of missile I was using before is a lot less effective against targets moving at 0 speed that are the same class of ship, yes I can take out a midslot item to fit a target painter ( btw you do realise that the optimal range on a target painter is outside the range of my torpedoes), and sacrifice some more shield, so fit a web as well and take some more tank out, which has basically halved the tank on my short range battleship.
And yet my Gallente pilot still fits the same midslots ( web, scram and booster ) which I cant fit on my Caldari ship if I want to keep the same tank as my mega fit on gallente pilot, the same lowslots and gets the same damage...........I mean it really is way too much to ask for them to be able to compete equally after all they are both 2nd tier battle ships. Caldari Character has more skill points invested in That particular ship than my gallente has on his mega
People keep on mentioning drones as well for caldari ships, sure they can fit 5 drones, try fitting 5 heavy drones in a raven.
IF these balance changes had affected my Gallente Character as much as my Caldari Character and I thought they were equalising all race ships I wouldnt be on this forum posting.
Why should I have to retrain my Caldari Character when I will not have to for any of my other Race character, Minnie, Amarr, and Gallente?
Firt thing torps are usefull agenst ships bigger then BS, not so good agenst BS.
2ed Gallente bs are armor tanks Caldari bs are shield tanks, so yea they diffrant.
3ed i sead use drones on frigs, heavy drones are useless agenst frigs, use med drones which fit, you can have 2 spare ones as well!
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:41:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
first of all HOW DARE U. second yes, yes i do i use missles all day and night. have since day one. I'd think i'd know what i'm talking about
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:46:00 -
[501]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
sure if you are running missions vs guristas that sit there slowly orbiting in ravens at like 200m/s at most you are fine, however if you live in an angel controled 0.0 yhen you know just how annoying it has become to make isk. Now i'm not gonna sit here and say before the patch you could hit a AF or HAC that was speed tanking with a torp, but my torps never had a problem taking care of these battleships going around 700m/s at most. If you want to sit there and argue about how it's just a little nerf and didn't affect missles that much there is no point in having this discussion because u are obviously very very ignorant
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:26:00 -
[502]
This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:36:00 -
[503]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
The majority of carebears have never seen a nanoship ingame.
People like yourself were the ones whining for the nanonerf
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:49:00 -
[504]
People who flew nano ships were whining for them to be nerfed?
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:50:00 -
[505]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra People who flew nano ships were whining for them to be nerfed?
Carebear logic: it's always someone else's fault.
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Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:00:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: iloni atoriandra This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
The majority of carebears have never seen a nanoship ingame.
People like yourself were the ones whining for the nanonerf
Well the star whiner in this thread, Khamal Jolstien, was indeed cheering for the nano nerf. I can find the posts if you really like. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the same holds true for most the unhappy people posting over and over but can't really be bothered to check.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:08:00 -
[507]
Originally by: mattbucci ...haven't u ever heard the phase "if it an't broke don't fix it"?
It was broken! They fixed it! Stop crying! Missiles are just as viable as they always were, as long as you know how to fit your ship and know how to use missiles...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:13:00 -
[508]
Edited by: Kerfira on 24/11/2008 13:14:04
Originally by: iloni atoriandra This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
The people calling for nano's to be adjusted were most likely NOT 'carebears' since they didn't have any reason to do so.
The people calling for a nano adjustment were other PvP'ers who saw nanofits as a threat to the variety of 0.0. If nano's hadn't been nerfed, soon there'd have been nothing in 0.0 BUT nanofits. This would have been bad for the game, which was realised by both the more sensible players as well as CCP.
Of.c. the people who'd been abusing the broken nano game mechanics are still crying, but that's really of no concern.
Nano nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game! Missile nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:24:00 -
[509]
Originally by: Kerfira Nano nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game! Missile nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game!
Sif! We don't need reasoned and balanced thinking on these boards!
Lern2whineflame and don't come back until you know how!
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:33:00 -
[510]
Actually most people whining about nanos were people who didnt know how/couldnt be bothered to fit their ships and use tactics to fight them properly, and people who were ganked in their ratting raven by some nano HACs and whined that their ratting BS wasnt able to kill the evil nanos easily by pressing F1-F6/7.
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.24 15:10:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 24/11/2008 13:14:04
Originally by: iloni atoriandra
The people calling for a nano adjustment were other PvP'ers who saw nanofits as a threat to the variety of 0.0. If nano's hadn't been nerfed, soon there'd have been nothing in 0.0 BUT nanofits.
You been in 0.0?
nothing but nanos?... so people ant making titan after titan, people ant building dread after dread, people ant roaming in spider tanked BS`s, and forming sniper ships to defend they space. People ant hot dropping in carriers.
You made out like nano is king in 0.0 when it is not, not by a long way, nano is easy to counter.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.24 15:54:00 -
[512]
Second this. Nano sure was usefull for 0.0 as in free get out of jail ticket and having mobile gangs, but they were'nt particulary much of a threat vs a well prepared normal gang. Especiall considering the fact that people in 0.0 should be having huggin/sabre/falcons ready by then.
Nano were used by the ones who knew how to use it, or by FOTM people (who still usually sucked). Not that it made that much of an difference. ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2008.11.24 16:06:00 -
[513]
18 pages of whining about missiles and nanos? CCP truly must've done something right for so many one trick ponies to flip out.
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:09:00 -
[514]
Originally by: soulkiller3
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 24/11/2008 13:14:04
Originally by: iloni atoriandra
The people calling for a nano adjustment were other PvP'ers who saw nanofits as a threat to the variety of 0.0. If nano's hadn't been nerfed, soon there'd have been nothing in 0.0 BUT nanofits.
You been in 0.0?
nothing but nanos?... so people ant making titan after titan, people ant building dread after dread, people ant roaming in spider tanked BS`s, and forming sniper ships to defend they space. People ant hot dropping in carriers.
You made out like nano is king in 0.0 when it is not, not by a long way, nano is easy to counter.
Erm you seem to have misquoted me as I never said that, it was the other guy arguing about nanos needing a nerf that said that.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:17:00 -
[515]
Please limit the personal flaming in this thread and confine the discussion to missile whines.
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:33:00 -
[516]
Before patch, my raven sniper was able to hit targets at 249km lock range and the missiles would chase over 330km and still hit cruiser/bc sized....
Now they dont.
Fit target painter= not option, not enough range. use drones = not option, not enough range. fit rigor/flare rigs= not an option, they are needed to get the range. Crap, its no longer a sniper ship.
I think turret snipers should also get nerved, its ridiculous they can hit small stuff over such targets for full impact in a lot of situations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont get it, why people keep talking about frigates nonstop, WELL trained raven pilots do less damage overall now on: BS, BC and cruisers. Torps were always bad and at this moment they totally stink, easier to focus on fury cruise then, although you should only fire on BIG BS then, unlike turret users who can get full damage on ANY BS.
Use drones, stupid argument, caldari has the smallest dronebays. Use the correct size of stuff: hey missile users dont have choise to fit dual 250, 350mm or 425mm rails for example and pick a turret that is better for a certain thing.
Missile change is just overdone, plain and simple. If you look on ALL the situations, then it got nerved too much. If you only insist to look on some things and then claim: see, you can easily adapt. Thats silly.
Another thing is and that is more important: missiles were developed in such a way, that it could be usefull for the content that was in game. However, CCP didnt modify the content to keep in line with the missile changes. So some regions, the cruise/torps users have now BIG problems, because CCP didnt change the npc rats, that are in some area's smaller and faster then others.
Its silly you need to fit target painters to hit BS sized targets. Gun users dont need those either.
Some say: but they have to fit tracking mods to be able to hit. Yes, that is maybe the case, but that also used to give increased chances on well aimed and wrecking hits. Missile users dont have that, their max. damage is capped HARD. They also dont have mods, that increase damage and the ability to hit at the same time.
Overal its now easier to fit turret ships then any missile ship. The missile ships now get forced to fit certain rigs to be able to play at all. Turrets ships can just choise whatever they like and have 10x as more options.
People say: train better. Sorry, but some people have tons of skills and are sometimes also crosstrained, they look on their logs and they see what they got fitted or could fit. They can also compare turrets and missile setups with their own char. And yet a lot of them also say simple: missiles are overnerved. I can train 1 more skill to lvl 5, that helps the signature of a missile, nothing else to be trained anymore, that can help it. Target painting, hey, could train signature focusing to lvl 5, to get my targetpainting the LAST 5 percent better. Would that help? No, because the target painter totally lack the range it requires to assist cruise.
You know why a lot of people tell, they barely notice it? They are using t1 stuff and for t1 stuff not much changed, some people would even not see the changes, because they didnt log their damage and fitting before the patch. But if you are trained better, the nerf is lowering your efficiency WAY more. And people have all right to complain about that, especially when they are also max. trained almost in that direction.
Its weird if you can get better results nowadays with a good trained rail/blaster/drone gallente BS, then with almost max trained missile/caldari/drone BS. I call such stuff: out of balance.
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Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:43:00 -
[517]
Originally by: KhaniKirai
Use drones, stupid argument, caldari has the smallest dronebays. Use the correct size of stuff: hey missile users dont have choise to fit dual 250, 350mm or 425mm rails for example and pick a turret that is better for a certain thing.
Are you implying that turret boat pilots regularly fit multiple turret types (example: 2 250mm, 2 350mm, 2 425mm) and only fire the "proper" guns at any given target? Are you further implying that missile boat pilots can't do the same with different launchers? Are you aware that doing such would marginalize DPS with any weapon system?
For years, I flew a Dominix that relied on drones and turrets. Even with amazing drone skills, the engagement range is limited to about 80-90 km, and mixing up the turrets is an exercise in stupidity. If you weren't so worried about firing from a range where NPCs can't hope to touch you, you might have room to actually fit a tank that will easily hold up to their damage.
Will you share your boosters with the rest of us?
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Raneru
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:52:00 -
[518]
Edited by: Raneru on 24/11/2008 17:52:31
Originally by: KhaniKirai
I think turret snipers should also get nerved, its ridiculous they can hit small stuff over such targets for full impact in a lot of situations.
If you flew anything other than missile ships you would know that large turrets were also nerfed, but we just get on with playing instead of moaning about it.
a 425mm II megaT with tracking mods can barely hit an af now and does like 30dmg a shot, a rokh has trouble hitting anything really
My alt has no trouble running level 4 missions in a raven.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:57:00 -
[519]
1. nobody changed the range of your missiles 2. a cruise missile sniper hits battleships and battle cruisers way harder than a turret sniper. the cruiser and below damage is less, but it's still good. not to mention the fact that zero modules are required to even get to max lock range, you can do it with skills only. 3. torps are well balanced when compared to other short range weapons. considering they don't have to track at all. 4. caldari might have the smallest drone bays, but they're the right size to fit the drones you need. 5. use the correct size: the 3 variations of gun per size class barely change anything
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:09:00 -
[520]
Originally by: soulkiller3 You been in 0.0?
nothing but nanos?... so people ant making titan after titan, people ant building dread after dread, people ant roaming in spider tanked BS`s, and forming sniper ships to defend they space. People ant hot dropping in carriers.
You made out like nano is king in 0.0 when it is not, not by a long way, nano is easy to counter.
You're trying hard to disguise the facts....
How often do you see titans, dreads etc. roam? They're not really relevant to this discussion...
Things were approaching the stage where the only viable composition of a small-medium roaming gang in 0.0 was nano-fit. Why? Because otherwise if they ran into a nano-gang, they'd be toast.
A nano-gang was more or less invincible EXCEPT to a specialised setup. That specialised setup was next to useless against anything BUT a nano-gang. That is not game balance, but imbalance! CCP saw it too and corrected it.
Your I-Win button is gone! And good riddance too!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.24 22:35:00 -
[521]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: soulkiller3 You been in 0.0?
nothing but nanos?... so people ant making titan after titan, people ant building dread after dread, people ant roaming in spider tanked BS`s, and forming sniper ships to defend they space. People ant hot dropping in carriers.
You made out like nano is king in 0.0 when it is not, not by a long way, nano is easy to counter.
You're trying hard to disguise the facts....
How often do you see titans, dreads etc. roam? They're not really relevant to this discussion...
Things were approaching the stage where the only viable composition of a small-medium roaming gang in 0.0 was nano-fit. Why? Because otherwise if they ran into a nano-gang, they'd be toast.
A nano-gang was more or less invincible EXCEPT to a specialised setup. That specialised setup was next to useless against anything BUT a nano-gang. That is not game balance, but imbalance! CCP saw it too and corrected it.
Your I-Win button is gone! And good riddance too!
ok a thew points
1. where did i say i disagree with the nerf? (it don't bother me i adapted to the nerf months ago)
2. Yes i use nanos and i still will because there still useful.
3. nano int all i use, i use a mix depending on whats happening.
4. They are many ways to counter nanos, mainly by sticking together and picking one off at a time with a rapier/azuz.
"That specialised setup was next to useless against anything BUT a nano-gang."
good set up is to get rr bs and some bubbles/rapiers, that mess with nano gangs and caps, tri killed a titan with that set up. It good for shooting pos mods and pos`s. Its good for a wide range of tactics. To say anty nano tactics are only good agenst nanos is wrong.
|
BhallSpawn
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Posted - 2008.11.25 01:18:00 -
[522]
flight time low dmg need a painter on a long range weapon?
ie. stupid patch.
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Brea Lafail
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 01:19:00 -
[523]
Originally by: Raneru If you flew anything other than missile ships you would know that large turrets were also nerfed, but we just get on with playing instead of moaning about it.
I fly turret ships for pvp and was not aware of any changes. Link pls.
P.S. Lol raven sniper. Target warps before missiles get there.
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Gankbear
Amarr Gankbears
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Posted - 2008.11.25 01:23:00 -
[524]
Stop whining.
The end.
-----------------------------
Gankbears Sarcasm hits fail thread for 249 lolcatz causing it to be locked. CCP Mitnal laid the final blow.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.25 01:28:00 -
[525]
Edited by: Odessima on 25/11/2008 01:34:39
Originally by: Karille 1. nobody changed the range of your missiles 2. a cruise missile sniper hits battleships and battle cruisers way harder than a turret sniper. the cruiser and below damage is less, but it's still good. not to mention the fact that zero modules are required to even get to max lock range, you can do it with skills only. 3. torps are well balanced when compared to other short range weapons. considering they don't have to track at all. 4. caldari might have the smallest drone bays, but they're the right size to fit the drones you need. 5. use the correct size: the 3 variations of gun per size class barely change anything
Im off to draw some crayon pictures, so you understand.......
So now a cruise missile raven doesnt need sensor boosters to hit at 250km's, or a cerb, or a few other ships that happen to be missile ships
Just so you get the picture with drones, 9 out of 10 times if I use small drones they die really quick due to sentry gun fire, so I very rarely use them and carry other drones that happen to be more usefull. Im not asking about bigger drone bays. A drone ship is a drone ship is a drone ship which is what makes them good.
A missile ship is a missile ship, we cant tackle and do shield tanking (obviously its armour tanking on armour tanking ships) effectively like other races can, so we need to do our DPS quickly because doh people warp away.
Im also not whining about not hitting frigates, because doh it takes to long to lock them in a battleship that has tank in midslots and doesnt fit SB's, and I actually agree that it doesnt make sense for torpedos to be able to fully hit frigates, cruisers.....but I should be hitting battleships ffs for pretty much full damage.
I have already pointed out for those saying fit a target painter that although they do work, their optimal is outside torp range.
I made the choice to not nano, but I have never *****ed about it continously and to me idiots who come in here saying that all misile users deserve it soley because Nano's got nerfed are just that, childish trolls.
Quote from Patch Notes
"Light, heavy and cruise precision missiles will now do more damage to smaller targets and will have a penalty of -50% range."
"Rocket, assault missile and torpedo javelin missiles will now do -10% less damage but range has been increased by 50%. "
"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "
They count as changes to range I am guessing, please read patch notes. It just shows you dont actually have any idea how ignorant your posting in here seems without actually knowing what changes they made to missiles themselves, without taking into account the actual changes to how they hit their target.
Whats even more laughable is that unless you have BS5 and maxed missile skills good luck hitting a large POS with rage torpedo's.
T2 Missiles are suppossed to be better than faction, the same as t2 Void and null should be better than faction ammo even at spec 1. Otherwise what is the point of training T2 specialisations, is it to increase the ROF of missile launches that fail to damage. |
Brea Lafail
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 01:33:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Odessima Whats even more laughable is that unless you have BS5 and maxed missile skills good luck hitting a large POS with rage torpedo's.
T2 Missiles are suppossed to be better than faction, the same as t2 Void and null should be better than faction ammo even at spec 1. Otherwise what is the point of training T2 specialisations, is it to increase the ROF of missile launches that fail to damage.
I thought you needed max skills to hit a large POS with torps pre-patch (unless you use rigs).
No, faction ammo is much more expensive that t2, therefore it should be better, just like every other faction mod.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 01:53:00 -
[527]
Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Odessima Whats even more laughable is that unless you have BS5 and maxed missile skills good luck hitting a large POS with rage torpedo's.
T2 Missiles are suppossed to be better than faction, the same as t2 Void and null should be better than faction ammo even at spec 1. Otherwise what is the point of training T2 specialisations, is it to increase the ROF of missile launches that fail to damage.
I thought you needed max skills to hit a large POS with torps pre-patch (unless you use rigs).
No, faction ammo is much more expensive that t2, therefore it should be better, just like every other faction mod.
I do use rigs. Why should something that I can use without specialising be better than something than something that you train to specialise in, I would think that would mean that you are better at using them than someone who hasnt trained the specialisation. If faction items didnt grow off the nearest tree, I might tend to agree with you. Its kind of like saying if I have more money than a sniper, i should be able to pwn him with a peashooter. |
Brea Lafail
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 02:01:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Odessima Its kind of like saying if I have more money than a sniper, i should be able to pwn him with a peashooter.
Such is Eve. Whether that's fair or not is for another thread.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 02:14:00 -
[529]
Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Odessima Its kind of like saying if I have more money than a sniper, i should be able to pwn him with a peashooter.
Such is Eve. Whether that's fair or not is for another thread.
I was on a roll |
Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 03:02:00 -
[530]
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: KhaniKirai
Use drones, stupid argument, caldari has the smallest dronebays. Use the correct size of stuff: hey missile users dont have choise to fit dual 250, 350mm or 425mm rails for example and pick a turret that is better for a certain thing.
Are you implying that turret boat pilots regularly fit multiple turret types (example: 2 250mm, 2 350mm, 2 425mm) and only fire the "proper" guns at any given target? Are you further implying that missile boat pilots can't do the same with different launchers? Are you aware that doing such would marginalize DPS with any weapon system?
For years, I flew a Dominix that relied on drones and turrets. Even with amazing drone skills, the engagement range is limited to about 80-90 km, and mixing up the turrets is an exercise in stupidity. If you weren't so worried about firing from a range where NPCs can't hope to touch you, you might have room to actually fit a tank that will easily hold up to their damage.
Will you share your boosters with the rest of us?
What he is saying is Turret users have different sized turrets in each range, Missile launchers only have one T2 variant in each range i.e Battleship sized close range e.g Electron, Ion, Neutron Blaster 2's compared to siege missile launcher 2.
Each of the Blasters have different Tracking bonuses, activation cost other stuff...so you can change your fit for battleships 3 ways(with all the guns the same size) as far as a blaster fit goes. Siege launchers, well you have 1 choice, or you can fit cruiser sized assault weapons, or even frigate sized assault weapons but thats okay if your suggesting that is helpful for us.
Meh if I was into ista-popping frigates I would use smart bombs on a raven, none of the drawbacks of either blasters or torps except range, and then oh gee no targetting time either.
Even though he may have had a bit of trouble expressing himself, unless you regularly fly PVP in a Caldari missile boat you wont actually see the difference. Im leaving PVE out of this due to the fact that I dont think that Missiles ships should be so far ahead as far as missioning goes. But then again I also know a few Domi pilots that fell asleep in a lvl 4 mission and woke up to find it just about finished, I would like to see you try that in a CNR.
All my ships that I use atm on my Caldari Pod Pilot ( I have others and 1 is a gallente which I regularly PVP with in battleships at close range) are usually missiles ships, and are mostly T2 ships except the raven and drake. It sint in my interests to see caldari missile ships pawning all other races, because then I wouldnt particularly like the changes to them. |
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Noriko Rei
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Posted - 2008.11.25 03:47:00 -
[531]
Originally by: Odessima
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: KhaniKirai
Use drones, stupid argument, caldari has the smallest dronebays. Use the correct size of stuff: hey missile users dont have choise to fit dual 250, 350mm or 425mm rails for example and pick a turret that is better for a certain thing.
Are you implying that turret boat pilots regularly fit multiple turret types (example: 2 250mm, 2 350mm, 2 425mm) and only fire the "proper" guns at any given target? Are you further implying that missile boat pilots can't do the same with different launchers? Are you aware that doing such would marginalize DPS with any weapon system?
For years, I flew a Dominix that relied on drones and turrets. Even with amazing drone skills, the engagement range is limited to about 80-90 km, and mixing up the turrets is an exercise in stupidity. If you weren't so worried about firing from a range where NPCs can't hope to touch you, you might have room to actually fit a tank that will easily hold up to their damage.
Will you share your boosters with the rest of us?
What he is saying is Turret users have different sized turrets in each range, Missile launchers only have one T2 variant in each range i.e Battleship sized close range e.g Electron, Ion, Neutron Blaster 2's compared to siege missile launcher 2.
He's saying it in the context of fighting multiple opponents of different sizes at the same time, which means he's implying mixing up weapons in the same fit. That's patently absurd for any weapon system if you want to do consistent DPS against what is, presumably, NPC rats that he's complaining about.
His gripe is that he can't load up a Raven with some cookie-cutter fit that has worked for ages, group his weapons, and go press F1 for a quick, easy victory in any computer-generated scenario. The problem with that whine is that, within a couple weeks, there will be a new cookie-cutter fit that works just as well, provided it hasn't already been developed and distributed.
It's nice to see the devs are finally doing something about the obvious Caldari superiority (read: imbalance) that accounts for the disproportionately high number of Caldari pilots. I can't believe people thought that this game was going to suck their collective d*ck forever, but that seems to be the heart of the shock and outrage at missile changes.
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Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 04:31:00 -
[532]
ECELLENT THREAD!
I HAVE FILLED UP MY HOTTUB WITH YOUR TEARS, keep em coming!
Please, jump into traffic
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.25 04:46:00 -
[533]
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: Odessima
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: KhaniKirai
Use drones, stupid argument, caldari has the smallest dronebays. Use the correct size of stuff: hey missile users dont have choise to fit dual 250, 350mm or 425mm rails for example and pick a turret that is better for a certain thing.
Are you implying that turret boat pilots regularly fit multiple turret types (example: 2 250mm, 2 350mm, 2 425mm) and only fire the "proper" guns at any given target? Are you further implying that missile boat pilots can't do the same with different launchers? Are you aware that doing such would marginalize DPS with any weapon system?
For years, I flew a Dominix that relied on drones and turrets. Even with amazing drone skills, the engagement range is limited to about 80-90 km, and mixing up the turrets is an exercise in stupidity. If you weren't so worried about firing from a range where NPCs can't hope to touch you, you might have room to actually fit a tank that will easily hold up to their damage.
Will you share your boosters with the rest of us?
What he is saying is Turret users have different sized turrets in each range, Missile launchers only have one T2 variant in each range i.e Battleship sized close range e.g Electron, Ion, Neutron Blaster 2's compared to siege missile launcher 2.
He's saying it in the context of fighting multiple opponents of different sizes at the same time, which means he's implying mixing up weapons in the same fit. That's patently absurd for any weapon system if you want to do consistent DPS against what is, presumably, NPC rats that he's complaining about.
His gripe is that he can't load up a Raven with some cookie-cutter fit that has worked for ages, group his weapons, and go press F1 for a quick, easy victory in any computer-generated scenario. The problem with that whine is that, within a couple weeks, there will be a new cookie-cutter fit that works just as well, provided it hasn't already been developed and distributed.
It's nice to see the devs are finally doing something about the obvious Caldari superiority (read: imbalance) that accounts for the disproportionately high number of Caldari pilots. I can't believe people thought that this game was going to suck their collective d*ck forever, but that seems to be the heart of the shock and outrage at missile changes.
Read- if you actually flew Caldari ships for other things than missioning you would know that they werent read-imbalanced before for PVP in fact where quite the oppossite, the reason why there where high numbers of caldari pilots is mainly because of the missioning aspect and because the Drake and CNR where so good for missioning. I doubt you will see me whine about Ammar ships either, and its not because I think they arent any good.
No where in that sentence you quoted did he mention what you are talking about individually using different sized weapons against multiple targets, you did. He was talking about fitting turret ships to suit different circumstances with three available t2 choices in that range. Not neccessarly 2 Electrons, 2 Ions and 3 Neutrons on the same fit to shoot frigates and battleships at the same time and using grouping for "this is my frigate gun, this is my cruiser gun, this is my battleship guns".
Do you think that Missile ships are an automatic win against Amarr ships is that why when someone brings up valid reasons for some adjustment to missiles to bring them back into line(from recent changes), not back to what they were originally and because your not being agreed with you go to being vitriolic. Your sadly mistaken and maybe if you think that is the case you need to look at your skills more.
Be aware Amarr will be the next to be nerfed, allthough I would rather just have things made balanced not neccessarily how they were before. I also wonder how the Absolution fared out of all this.
BTW what boosters are you on |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 07:21:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Odessima
Im off to draw some crayon pictures, so you understand.......
So now a cruise missile raven doesnt need sensor boosters to hit at 250km's, or a cerb, or a few other ships that happen to be missile ships
Just so you get the picture with drones, 9 out of 10 times if I use small drones they die really quick due to sentry gun fire, so I very rarely use them and carry other drones that happen to be more usefull. Im not asking about bigger drone bays. A drone ship is a drone ship is a drone ship which is what makes them good.
A missile ship is a missile ship, we cant tackle and do shield tanking (obviously its armour tanking on armour tanking ships) effectively like other races can, so we need to do our DPS quickly because doh people warp away.
Im also not whining about not hitting frigates, because doh it takes to long to lock them in a battleship that has tank in midslots and doesnt fit SB's, and I actually agree that it doesnt make sense for torpedos to be able to fully hit frigates, cruisers.....but I should be hitting battleships ffs for pretty much full damage.
I have already pointed out for those saying fit a target painter that although they do work, their optimal is outside torp range.
I made the choice to not nano, but I have never *****ed about it continously and to me idiots who come in here saying that all misile users deserve it soley because Nano's got nerfed are just that, childish trolls.
Quote from Patch Notes
"Light, heavy and cruise precision missiles will now do more damage to smaller targets and will have a penalty of -50% range."
"Rocket, assault missile and torpedo javelin missiles will now do -10% less damage but range has been increased by 50%. "
"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "
They count as changes to range I am guessing, please read patch notes. It just shows you dont actually have any idea how ignorant your posting in here seems without actually knowing what changes they made to missiles themselves, without taking into account the actual changes to how they hit their target.
Whats even more laughable is that unless you have BS5 and maxed missile skills good luck hitting a large POS with rage torpedo's.
T2 Missiles are suppossed to be better than faction, the same as t2 Void and null should be better than faction ammo even at spec 1. Otherwise what is the point of training T2 specialisations, is it to increase the ROF of missile launches that fail to damage.
1. i wasn't talking about precision cruise. no mention of tech 2 missiles was made in his post, and the range of tech 1 missiles didn't change at all. he said cruise missile sniper and that's what i was talking about. 2. do you have any idea how many tracking computers AND sensor boosters it takes to make a megathron hit at 249km? as in, it can't be done. stacking penalties limit you to 194+30, that's 224km. the raven doesn't need modules to extend its missile range, so i'm completely correct. 3. at least you get way more range on your rage torps than i get on my void L
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Kematian
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 07:42:00 -
[535]
My 1/2 cent on this, as I was Caldari pre-nerf and have switched to a new indy-pathed Amarr now, is that for any reason if my standard missiles were suddenly doing better DPS than heavies, something was broken. Bad.
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 10:06:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Kematian My 1/2 cent on this, as I was Caldari pre-nerf and have switched to a new indy-pathed Amarr now, is that for any reason if my standard missiles were suddenly doing better DPS than heavies, something was broken. Bad.
Was you shooting frigs by any chance, if so then standerd will hit better.
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:27:00 -
[537]
how about turret users mind their own business, missiles do not bother them, but they are here to show disregard
missiles will work better with a little extra explosion velocity, +25% to all missiles will save the day - it is obvious (Golems have no issues with speed tanked targets) |
Hyveres
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 14:18:00 -
[538]
Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:19:56
Originally by: soulkiller3
Originally by: Kematian My 1/2 cent on this, as I was Caldari pre-nerf and have switched to a new indy-pathed Amarr now, is that for any reason if my standard missiles were suddenly doing better DPS than heavies, something was broken. Bad.
Was you shooting frigs by any chance, if so then standerd will hit better.
Maybe you should field test properly.
For cruisersized targets use Light missiles , For Battleship sized targets use Heavy missiles For Capital ship targets use cruise missiles.
If you want to hit frigates use drones.
Talking moving targets ofc.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 14:22:00 -
[539]
Maybe you should train some skills.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:35:00 -
[540]
Originally by: Opertone how about turret users mind their own business, missiles do not bother them
Humour.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
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Hyveres
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 14:40:00 -
[541]
Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:40:29
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:31:22 Maybe you should train some skills.
Close-range missiles are now a far superior weapon system.
The missile whining is a classic case of people not properly applying the numbers to realistic, sensible game situations.
And long range missiles are a clearly inferior one.
Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Heck at 250 km ranges a Rokh should outdps a cruiseraven against more or less any target that is not a static BS or larger ship.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:50:00 -
[542]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:40:29
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:31:22 Maybe you should train some skills.
Close-range missiles are now a far superior weapon system.
The missile whining is a classic case of people not properly applying the numbers to realistic, sensible game situations.
And long range missiles are a clearly inferior one.
Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Heck at 250 km ranges a Rokh should outdps a cruiseraven against more or less any target that is not a static BS or larger ship.
The Rokh has the dps of a wet noodle and tracks horribly.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:52:00 -
[543]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:55:11
Quote: Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Vagabond with no mods? And what was I saying about absurd, unrealistic situations?
How much HM/Cruise damage were you getting against a MWDing Vaga - or any nanoed ship - before the patch? And how much now?
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:59:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:55:11
Quote: Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Vagabond with no mods? And what was I saying about absurd, unrealistic situations?
How much HM/Cruise damage were you getting against a MWDing Vaga - or any nanoed ship - before the patch? And how much now?
I think the vagabond would do worse WITH mods since people throw sig radius increasing shield extenders on it.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 15:18:00 -
[545]
And 500% self-painters.
Well, it gets about a 50% damage reduction from HMs at ~3 km/s. Which is a million miles away from the previous 1% damage (although yes it had to slow down to actually hit an orbiting target under the old mechanics).
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente Black Legion Command Black Legion.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:39:00 -
[546]
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 25/11/2008 15:40:30
Originally by: BhallSpawn flight time low dmg need a painter on a long range weapon?
ie. stupid patch.
Optimal Range. Tracking.
Adapt.
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 22:14:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:19:56
Originally by: soulkiller3
Originally by: Kematian My 1/2 cent on this, as I was Caldari pre-nerf and have switched to a new indy-pathed Amarr now, is that for any reason if my standard missiles were suddenly doing better DPS than heavies, something was broken. Bad.
Was you shooting frigs by any chance, if so then standerd will hit better.
Maybe you should field test properly.
For cruisersized targets use Light missiles , For Battleship sized targets use Heavy missiles For Capital ship targets use cruise missiles.
If you want to hit frigates use drones.
Talking moving targets ofc.
I have field tested, and cruise missiles work fine on moving BS, and i have pointed out twice already to use drones on frigs
|
Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:31:00 -
[548]
Edited by: Opertone on 26/11/2008 11:31:21 no no no, missile explosion velocities are too slow, everything else in the missile formula is fine
perhaps we could move more towards signature radius reliance rather than velocity component itself. So that the size of the target has more impact than the speed comparison on the resulting DPS.
i'd be happy with +25% adjustment to all missiles in game, so that non proficient ships can start using them and caldari ships do not have to fit tackle and can actually spam missiles from 120 km away. |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 12:22:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Opertone
i'd be happy with +25% adjustment to all missiles in game, so that non proficient ships can start using them and caldari ships do not have to fit tackle and can actually spam missiles from 120 km away.
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ChanibintLiet
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:10:00 -
[550]
I agree, missiles just suck right now and need to be fixed or just changed back.
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Marius Nervosu
Caldari Black Straw
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 14:22:00 -
[551]
Edited by: Marius Nervosu on 26/11/2008 14:22:12 Missiles suck bad now...
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:29:00 -
[552]
What makes them so bad?
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knobber Jobbler
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 14:46:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Marius Nervosu Edited by: Marius Nervosu on 26/11/2008 14:22:12 Missiles suck bad now...
I don't belive they do. They've changed. Its forced people to think about there missile/ship loadout allot more. T2 missiles are now more important and actually have a use now, drones for missile ships are now more important. It just means missile *****s (me included) have to think about builds a little better now and the type of missiles and missile lauchers for a given situation.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:05:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:55:11
Quote: Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Vagabond with no mods? And what was I saying about absurd, unrealistic situations?
How much HM/Cruise damage were you getting against a MWDing Vaga - or any nanoed ship - before the patch? And how much now?
I think the vagabond would do worse WITH mods since people throw sig radius increasing shield extenders on it.
I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
--
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 15:12:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Haradgrim
I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
You need better drone skills. My Ishkur was an even match for a vagabond a few days ago. I'm not saying that the two pilots were of the same skill, but I stripped off his entire shield with my Hobgoblin II drones and yes, he had an mwd, no he wasn't webbed.
Coincidentally a turret battleship pilot would have met the same fate in your situation, so i don't see the imbalance.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:34:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Karille You need better drone skills. My Ishkur was an even match for a vagabond a few days ago. I'm not saying that the two pilots were of the same skill, but I stripped off his entire shield with my Hobgoblin II drones and yes, he had an mwd, no he wasn't webbed.
…then again, the bolded part makes a huge difference now: using an MWD is currently among the kindest thing you can do to your enemy — no amount of TPs he fits and precision skills he trains can come close to that kind of 500% self-paintage.
It's a tricky choice: shut off his MWD and make him harder to hit, or let him keep it on and make it easier for him to run away.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 15:41:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Karille You need better drone skills. My Ishkur was an even match for a vagabond a few days ago. I'm not saying that the two pilots were of the same skill, but I stripped off his entire shield with my Hobgoblin II drones and yes, he had an mwd, no he wasn't webbed.
àthen again, the bolded part makes a huge difference now: using an MWD is currently among the kindest thing you can do to your enemy ù no amount of TPs he fits and precision skills he trains can come close to that kind of 500% self-paintage.
It's a tricky choice: shut off his MWD and make him harder to hit, or let him keep it on and make it easier for him to run away.
I think for that fight it could have been better to let him mwd and just web him instead. It wouldn't cut his speed as much, but he'd still have a huge sig radius. Since part of the missile formula includes the ratio of sig to speed it might be more productive.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:42:00 -
[558]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/11/2008 15:42:35
Originally by: Haradgrim I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
Your torps are still more effective against a Vaga than they were before QR. Also, why on Earth were you using EM torps against a Vaga?
And yeah, webbing him would have been far more effective than MWD-scrambling.
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Creh Ester
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:55:00 -
[559]
Edited by: Creh Ester on 26/11/2008 21:02:41 I think people have lost focus of the thread subject. When I logged on last week I found many of my corp mates deep into rage and bitterness about the missile nerf. I naturally assumed the forum would be full of nerd rage and outcry. But going there to check out wasup, I found only two timid threads. And the only nerd rage there, were the usual losers who, huffing and puffing themselves into their image of a cool PvP'er, vehemently scolded anyone complaining about the state of missiles (they're 'carebears' right?).
Well, I went out and flew missions with several different characters, in both turret ships (Minmatar arty) and missile boats. What I found out was that the game hasn't changed in any fundamental manner. That is: It's still possible to fly missions in missile boats. It's still possible to fly missions in turret ships. The manual workload is still higher in the turret ship in Lv4s. In Lv1, maybe not. And, yes, yes, you can/should use drones, target painters, whatever, that really isn't relevant for the issue. Neither are skills. I consider those arguments just part of the huffing and puffing :roll:.
So, no problem? I don't know. What do you consider a problem? What I did find out was this: L1 missions were faster in a Minmatar gun frig than in a Caldari missile frig, with both a missile char (<9mil miss. <4mil gun) and a turret char (<4mil miss. <9mil gun). And as a general suggestion I think that experiment should be easy for anyone to do, so instead of theorizing here about fitting this mod or other, just go out and do it.
And is that a problem? Well, not really. If it wasn't a problem that it used to be easier and faster with missiles, I can't see why this other state is a problem now either. (And I assume that it, for a new low skill char, is safer as well, with the turret ship. Particularly considering the lacklustre speed, grids and slots of Caldari ships).
Lv4 missions, I'm not sure. Oh, I'm sure that they used to be faster, easier and safer for a missile boat than they are now. And I experimented with turret ships in missions already before this missile nerf, and found them often to be useful. (And incidentally, huffers and puffers, sniping as many frigs as you manage at long range is something you typically do, and try to do, when you take a turret BS to a L4.) But I'm not sure L4s are easier, safer and faster in turret ships than missile boats. Rather I'm sure they are not always so. Some missions still favor missiles.
No the problem areas are others: People have (again) been robbed on their skilling choices. And this time they've been robbed of a year or more. Oh sure, they can still fly missions with their missile skills, but in an EVE where things are relative, there really aren't any reasons to train missiles anymore. So people are still robbed. But it's not the first time that happens, and it's always going to happen as long as ccp balances this game, so is it really a problem?
The other problem is Caldari race, at all. In PvP, Caldari always needed a little fleet of five or so specialists to accomplish what two buddies could do together for other races. When it comes to getting the slots and grids together for PvP, Caldari has for long been a gimped mess. To go with that they are sluggish and have smallish drone bays. The one redeeming factor was always PvE. Now what? Oh, you can still PvE in Caldari missile ships. But the question now is WHY? Personally I'm not a great fan of extensive balancing. Let things be different I say. I particularly dislike the current trend where everything has to be as exactly corresponding items as possible. What's really the point of different races, different weapon technologies, then? If it's all the same. But you forum dwellers seem to like balancing a lot. So, - What's balanced about Caldari now? That is maybe a problem. Not for me though. I'm Gallente and cross trained.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:59:00 -
[560]
Originally by: Creh Ester
But you forum dwellers seem to like balancing a lot. So, - What's balanced about Caldari now? That is maybe a problem. Not for me though.
The damage is balanced and the mechanics are still different. Where's the problem. Nobody got robbed of any SP, I'm still training missiles, and they're still viable.
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:22:00 -
[561]
turret users care more about missile staying as they are than the missiles user want them to improve :P
gallente are the ones completely satisfied with the fate of caldari |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 21:29:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Opertone turret users care more about missile staying as they are than the missiles user want them to improve :P
gallente are the ones completely satisfied with the fate of caldari
I've seen many of your brethren clueless as to why you're having such trouble. Perhaps you should ask them for advice.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.26 23:43:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/11/2008 15:42:35
Originally by: Haradgrim I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
Your torps are still more effective against a Vaga than they were before QR. Also, why on Earth were you using EM torps against a Vaga?
And yeah, webbing him would have been far more effective than MWD-scrambling.
No, a scrammed and webbed and painted vaga pre-QR got melted by torps and t2 med drones, I'm using EM because it was loaded, its not that bad anyhow... and at MWD-webbed speed he can easily get away from me.
Re; my drones skills: they're near perfect.....
The thing is, its not like I haven't had this fight pre-QR, you can sit there all day and tell me its the same but I KNOW its not.... my dps is shameful now. Also, pulse lasers still melt vagas..... --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.27 00:50:00 -
[564]
I have a hard time following the debate, mostly because there are so many inputs concerning numerous topics within.
Oh, and after reading 19 pages, yes I've actaully read all of them, discovering about 1/4 of them were spam in one way or another.
I've been away from EVE for awhile, so I haven't experienced the effects first hand. My question is PvE-related:
Am I still able to kill NPC-BS's with cruisemissiles?
Are cruisemissiles still deadly towards NPC-BC's?
Faction cruisemissiles used to be the best missiles at killing NPC-BS and BC's, range and speed in one, are they still so?
I don't really care about frigates and cruisers, my drones usually eat them for breakfast (they continue to do so, right?).
But I've been able to, almost, one shoot frigates MWD'ing towards me, which seems okay considering I hit the right on the nose which means the frigate has to fly through the explosion, will I still be able to do that?
Oh, and did my Raven just become even slower?
Yes I know, Caldari, shieldtanking, and missiles doesn't really mix with PvP, but that's the way I've chosen, is 1,5 years of training in shields and missiles wasted?
Guess I get to try it myself when I get back from maternity leave.
rgds
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Patent Pending
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:05:00 -
[565]
Edited by: Patent Pending on 27/11/2008 01:10:44 --Am I still able to kill NPC-BS's with cruisemissiles?
Yes, you need a lot more though.
Think on this: 4 cruise missile T2 fury fired at 20m/s rat BS do 1450 dmg.
Same 4 cruises fired at same rat BS who still has almost full shields.. except rat BS accelerated to 120m/s .. damage is 850.
this is with 1 target painter and 1 webber drone set on it too.
40 something % reduction .. and almost all battleships in the game WILL fly over 100ms pretty much.
--Are cruisemissiles still deadly towards NPC-BC's?
Same as above.
--Faction cruisemissiles used to be the best missiles at killing NPC-BS and BC's, range and speed in one, are they still so?
Yes.
However, due to the above mentioned speed damage mitigation, it is more effective to use heavy T2 fury missiles vs BS and BC. Fire refire rate, do apply full damage every time, does not require painter or webber.
Drake > Raven . lulz.
---I don't really care about frigates and cruisers, my drones usually eat them for breakfast (they continue to do so, right?).
No. Medium drones got a tracking nerf vs frigates. Oh, they still do kill them but it takes some time.
---But I've been able to, almost, one shoot frigates MWD'ing towards me, which seems okay considering I hit the right on the nose which means the frigate has to fly through the explosion, will I still be able to do that?
Not like before but similar. You can now hit MWD frigates with missiles as mwd speeds were slowed down (blessed nano-nerf) and missiles catch up with them. Damage however, goes down almost exponentially based on the target's speed.
Thing is.. people about to get hit by a missile just turn off the MWD and drift at high speed and receive practically zero damage. *shrug*
---Oh, and did my Raven just become even slower?
Yes, all ships had a mass and speed change. slower now.
---Yes I know, Caldari, shieldtanking, and missiles doesn't really mix with PvP, but that's the way I've chosen, is 1,5 years of training in shields and missiles wasted?
Pretty much yes. Now to 'properly' use missiles you need to have the target webbed (brilliant BS from CCP.. the 40/80/150km weapon systems only do damage under 10km LOL), target painted and bearing gifts of shrubbery.
Hence, forget shield tanking or good missile fire performance via midslot modules. you cant have both. Not even on an ecm-less scorpion.
----Guess I get to try it myself when I get back from maternity leave.
grats :)
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:10:00 -
[566]
Originally by: Patent Pending
grats :)
Thanks
rgds
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:20:00 -
[567]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 27/11/2008 01:20:59
Originally by: SirMoric
Just read the patch notes. Everything except the exact new missile formula is in there. You're better off looking how they actually changed thing instead of relying on the dumbed down advice you get here. When you understand the changes, you can see how to change your fit to achieve the best results with the new rules.
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SPQRMocton
Minmatar Calmarr Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.27 02:47:00 -
[568]
2 words TARGET PAINTER Fly reckless and take chances..............it's more fun |
Oh Crikey
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Posted - 2008.11.27 04:26:00 -
[569]
Originally by: SPQRMocton 2 words TARGET PAINTER
15 words: Doesn't solve the problem of missiles, as it's too easy to speed tank them now.
12 more words: Webbers are too low range, and the webbing drone is too slow.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.27 04:28:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Patent Pending Edited by: Patent Pending on 27/11/2008 01:10:44 --Am I still able to kill NPC-BS's with cruisemissiles?
Yes, you need a lot more though.
Think on this: 4 cruise missile T2 fury fired at 20m/s rat BS do 1450 dmg.
Same 4 cruises fired at same rat BS who still has almost full shields.. except rat BS accelerated to 120m/s .. damage is 850.
this is with 1 target painter and 1 webber drone set on it too.
40 something % reduction .. and almost all battleships in the game WILL fly over 100ms pretty much.
--Are cruisemissiles still deadly towards NPC-BC's?
Same as above.
--Faction cruisemissiles used to be the best missiles at killing NPC-BS and BC's, range and speed in one, are they still so?
Yes.
However, due to the above mentioned speed damage mitigation, it is more effective to use heavy T2 fury missiles vs BS and BC. Fire refire rate, do apply full damage every time, does not require painter or webber.
Drake > Raven . lulz.
---I don't really care about frigates and cruisers, my drones usually eat them for breakfast (they continue to do so, right?).
No. Medium drones got a tracking nerf vs frigates. Oh, they still do kill them but it takes some time.
---But I've been able to, almost, one shoot frigates MWD'ing towards me, which seems okay considering I hit the right on the nose which means the frigate has to fly through the explosion, will I still be able to do that?
Not like before but similar. You can now hit MWD frigates with missiles as mwd speeds were slowed down (blessed nano-nerf) and missiles catch up with them. Damage however, goes down almost exponentially based on the target's speed.
Thing is.. people about to get hit by a missile just turn off the MWD and drift at high speed and receive practically zero damage. *shrug*
---Oh, and did my Raven just become even slower?
Yes, all ships had a mass and speed change. slower now.
---Yes I know, Caldari, shieldtanking, and missiles doesn't really mix with PvP, but that's the way I've chosen, is 1,5 years of training in shields and missiles wasted?
Pretty much yes. Now to 'properly' use missiles you need to have the target webbed (brilliant BS from CCP.. the 40/80/150km weapon systems only do damage under 10km LOL), target painted and bearing gifts of shrubbery.
Hence, forget shield tanking or good missile fire performance via midslot modules. you cant have both. Not even on an ecm-less scorpion.
----Guess I get to try it myself when I get back from maternity leave.
grats :)
sums it up quite nicely ;-)
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:15:00 -
[571]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
sums it up quite nicely ;-)
Until you realize that he's lying about some things. Cruise missiles do more damage to battleships with an afterburner than heavy missiles. The only exceptions being the Typhoon and the Tempest. Not because they go fast, but because their sig radius is way smaller. This is at max range without any web or painter. He's right about heavies doing more damage to a BC though.
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:23:00 -
[572]
Gallente this way Blasters |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:36:00 -
[573]
I don't think blasters are crap, why would i want to go there?
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:00:00 -
[574]
because we love our missiles and want them to be reasonably good, we've only seen missiles to be an inferior damage platform in PvP.
now we observe some oddities in the missile damage formula, we want to clarify it, we want a well balanced weapon system within our race, which can counter the designed targets.
Strange missile behavior revolves around unclarity with signature size of the target (not shown in overview), effective signature (after paint and MWD), ambiguity of the Damage reduction Factor and disproportions in Signature vs Velocity contribution to the formula.
Basically I can't understand how a cruise missile can not do full damage to a Battleship going at default speed, why do we get 50% damage reduction to a Battleship with only an afterburner fitted, why Rage missiles do less damage than Caldari navy missiles, and how do we get our target painters to 200 km range?
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:22:00 -
[575]
Originally by: Opertone because we love our missiles and want them to be reasonably good, we've only seen missiles to be an inferior damage platform in PvP.
now we observe some oddities in the missile damage formula, we want to clarify it, we want a well balanced weapon system within our race, which can counter the designed targets.
Strange missile behavior revolves around unclarity with signature size of the target (not shown in overview), effective signature (after paint and MWD), ambiguity of the Damage reduction Factor and disproportions in Signature vs Velocity contribution to the formula.
Basically I can't understand how a cruise missile can not do full damage to a Battleship going at default speed, why do we get 50% damage reduction to a Battleship with only an afterburner fitted, why Rage missiles do less damage than Caldari navy missiles, and how do we get our target painters to 200 km range?
I'll agree with you that sig radius would be a nice column on the overview.
Cruise missiles doing less damage to a battleship going default speed is a fallacy for all battleships but the tempest and typhoon. And that's because of their sig radius, not velocity.
You do less damage to a target with an afterburner because they get an equal advantage against turret ships.
Rage missiles do less damage than faction for the same reason the other high damage T2 ammo has a tracking penalty.
You don't get your target painters to 200km. Just like other races don't even get their GUNS to 200km
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:31:00 -
[576]
Edited by: Hyveres on 27/11/2008 12:31:53 Only minmatar lacks snipercapability at extreme ranges.
As for the AB issue for a battleship to gain an avoidance advantage due to transversal will usually mean getting within webrange and orbiting.
For most missileboats webrange is really not where you want to be due to the squishy nature of your ships. Too few lowslots to effectivly armourtank coupled with not enough mid to fit propulsion + utility + shieldtank means missileboats are relativly fragile.
The change is fine if they will take a look at slot composition and allow more caldari ships to run an effective armourtank. But being squishy and forced to engage close range in order for our weapons to be effective is a bad bad tradeoff.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.27 16:16:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
sums it up quite nicely ;-)
Until you realize that he's lying about some things. Cruise missiles do more damage to battleships with an afterburner than heavy missiles. The only exceptions being the Typhoon and the Tempest. Not because they go fast, but because their sig radius is way smaller. This is at max range without any web or painter. He's right about heavies doing more damage to a BC though.
Wish they would for me. His information is accurate to my experience.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.27 16:23:00 -
[578]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
sums it up quite nicely ;-)
Until you realize that he's lying about some things. Cruise missiles do more damage to battleships with an afterburner than heavy missiles. The only exceptions being the Typhoon and the Tempest. Not because they go fast, but because their sig radius is way smaller. This is at max range without any web or painter. He's right about heavies doing more damage to a BC though.
Wish they would for me. His information is accurate to my experience.
Then you need to train better skills.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.27 16:24:00 -
[579]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
sums it up quite nicely ;-)
Until you realize that he's lying about some things. Cruise missiles do more damage to battleships with an afterburner than heavy missiles. The only exceptions being the Typhoon and the Tempest. Not because they go fast, but because their sig radius is way smaller. This is at max range without any web or painter. He's right about heavies doing more damage to a BC though.
Wish they would for me. His information is accurate to my experience.
Then you need to train better skills.
My relevant schools are pretty advanced. No amount of training is going to make these things worth using anymore. They weren't too good to begin with.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.27 17:46:00 -
[580]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 27/11/2008 17:48:06
Skill points are no substitute for knowledge. Like the knowledge that fitting an AB to a battleship is completely stupid in PVP.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.28 08:38:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 27/11/2008 17:48:06
Skill points are no substitute for knowledge. Like the knowledge that fitting an AB to a battleship is completely stupid in PVP.
This is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, knoweldge nor skillpoints are capable of making missiles a viable platform until CCP fixes them.
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Severe Admin
Blind Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.28 09:26:00 -
[582]
theyre working fine u just fail. In their effort to make small ships still have survivability from losing so much speed (speed nerf) this is what happens. Dont be so whiny next time in trying to get a speed nerf think how it could effect you. You reap what you sew.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.28 19:02:00 -
[583]
Originally by: Severe Admin theyre working fine u just fail. In their effort to make small ships still have survivability from losing so much speed (speed nerf) this is what happens. Dont be so whiny next time in trying to get a speed nerf think how it could effect you. You reap what you sew.
I can't sew very well :(.
We asked for a nerf, not this little pile of failure. They screwed up, so now we're asking them to fix it. It's no big deal, they'll figure out what's wrong and correct it. Just need to keep reminding them it's a priority issue .
For the adapt or die parrots, adapting is one thing, complete character respec is another.
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Severe Admin
Blind Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.28 19:16:00 -
[584]
wow look how stupid you are. missiles dont need a "fix" minmitar was destroyed by the nano nerf. They arent getting a fix. Neither will your missiles. time to deal with it.
also cry moar pls.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.29 04:48:00 -
[585]
Originally by: Severe Admin wow look how stupid you are. missiles dont need a "fix" minmitar was destroyed by the nano nerf. They arent getting a fix. Neither will your missiles. time to deal with it.
also cry moar pls.
You sir remind me of a child who has one of his toys taken away and proceeds to try and get your brother in trouble so the same thing happens to him.
Bitter Much!!! Although I actually think there is no need to change the way missiles work now, mainly because I cant wait to see your tears flow and remind you of this when your next nerf comes along. Im quite sure it will make me laugh. |
Severe Admin
Blind Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.29 05:30:00 -
[586]
hahahah you got trolled hard. I dont listen to failed wannabe pirate alliances that cant even make it in 0.0 and have to move back to low sec to fail more. i find your bitterness most gratifying. I have already adapted enjoy your missiles
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.29 07:37:00 -
[587]
Originally by: Severe Admin wow look how stupid you are. missiles dont need a "fix" minmitar was destroyed by the nano nerf. They arent getting a fix. Neither will your missiles. time to deal with it.
also cry moar pls.
Minmatar were in trouble before the nerf (esp. battleships) and are in trouble after. But nerfing missiles also nerfs minmatar, so it's kind of been doubled up.
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Rico Felix
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Posted - 2008.11.29 07:56:00 -
[588]
Edited by: Rico Felix on 29/11/2008 07:58:47 This whining by Caldari ship L4 mission runners is unbelievable...
You cant even hit a BS orbiting you unwebbed with large artillery, without multiple tracking mods that sacrifice tank, and insane gunnery skills. You cant hit frigs period except once every 1000 shots webbed even with large autocannons...You would never hit a frig with large artillery orbiting you, webbed, target painted, or anything. Welcome to being balanced, maybe you shouldnt have crosstrained for caldari battleships cause all factions battleships can do L4 np if you are not ignorant.
You cookie cutter Caldari mission runners fail at the game. If all you can do is lock, fire missile, win. It is ridiculous, you should just quit Eve if the only tactics you can fathom are lock and shoot missiles. Wow..
I run L4 with a Typhoon armor tanked with autocannons, and a Malestrom with 8 artillery, and the Typhoon relies heavily on drones/web for smaller ships, and the Maelstrom completely relies on flying a certain way to get transversal low to hit anything. Welcome to having to grow a brain Caldari mission runners. Try not to think too hard there.
I use cruise on typhoon and thought it was ridiculous that they hit frigs on incoming for 340, now they hit for like 180, they still rock frigs if the frig transversal low. It is called transversal. Missiles work like that too. Fly a certain way so your missile hits frigs in the nose, or use some painters, or omg,a web, you might have to drain drone interfacing, even tech 1 light drones with drone interfacing 4 wreck frigates, oh no, you might have to actually train a bunch of msisile skills to make msisiles work well, OMGZ the sky is falling.
I can't believe how bad at videogames some of you are.
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.29 07:58:00 -
[589]
Yes, mission runners should definitely learn to use drones. But it's not all about them - missile PvP took a huge hit, and it wasn't exactly healthy to begin with.
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Rico Felix
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Posted - 2008.11.29 08:03:00 -
[590]
Missiles actually hit ships MWDing now instead of not doing anything. Small ships using AB (utilizing their tiny sig radius) are better off versus larger missiles, makes sense to me.
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2008.11.29 08:17:00 -
[591]
Originally by: Rico Felix Missiles actually hit ships MWDing now instead of not doing anything. Small ships using AB (utilizing their tiny sig radius) are better off versus larger missiles, makes sense to me.
And versus smaller missiles. Missiles weren't scaled correctly, so now you can get a nano effect versus even small missiles if you fit an AB.
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Gamesguy
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.29 10:51:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Rico Felix Missiles actually hit ships MWDing now instead of not doing anything. Small ships using AB (utilizing their tiny sig radius) are better off versus larger missiles, makes sense to me.
And versus smaller missiles. Missiles weren't scaled correctly, so now you can get a nano effect versus even small missiles if you fit an AB.
Missiles are just screwy. If ccp would just balance missiles like guns, we wouldn't have this problem.
All short range guns have better tracking and fitting requirements. This should apply to missiles as well. Torpedos/HAMs/Rockets would have better explosion velocity/radius compared to their long range variants.
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BhallSpawn
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Posted - 2008.12.01 02:21:00 -
[593]
Yes they went to far missles have sucked for a long long time hardly anyone was using them in pvp before. now you have to have down syndrome to even consider it.
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BhallSpawn
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Posted - 2008.12.01 23:40:00 -
[594]
"Yes, mission runners should definitely learn to use drones. But it's not all about them - missile PvP took a huge hit, and it wasn't exactly healthy to begin with."
Very true.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.12.03 02:26:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Rico Felix
Caldari ships can't fight in web range cause their tanks are weak? If Caldari have a strength isnt it their ridiculous tanks?
I can't believe how bad at videogames some of you are.
Sure, if we remove all supporting, necessary pvp modules we can get ridiculous tanks. If you go and PVP as caldari, you find your tank diminishing real quick.
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Bohoba
Caldari HolyKnights
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Posted - 2008.12.03 02:34:00 -
[596]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 27/11/2008 12:31:53 Only minmatar lacks snipercapability at extreme ranges.
As for the AB issue for a battleship to gain an avoidance advantage due to transversal will usually mean getting within webrange and orbiting.
For most missileboats webrange is really not where you want to be due to the squishy nature of your ships. Too few lowslots to effectivly armourtank coupled with not enough mid to fit propulsion + utility + shieldtank means missileboats are relativly fragile.
The change is fine if they will take a look at slot composition and allow more caldari ships to run an effective armourtank. But being squishy and forced to engage close range in order for our weapons to be effective is a bad bad tradeoff.
I like this guy :) and your sig is mine hehehe
....................... 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.12.03 02:52:00 -
[597]
Originally by: Vikarion Yes, mission runners should definitely learn to use drones. But it's not all about them - missile PvP took a huge hit, and it wasn't exactly healthy to begin with.
This pretty much sums it up --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.03 03:18:00 -
[598]
Edited by: Kessiaan on 03/12/2008 03:23:53 I'm not a big time missile slinger but after having some experience with shooting them (mostly rockets) and having them shot back at me (all types) I do think some tweaks are called.
First and foremost, CCP seems to have balanced HAMs and rockets around the idea that a webbed target without a huge sig should still be able to speedtank them with an AB. I think this is a bad idea as all it has done is make them nearly useless against anyone. Rockets and HAMs should do full damage to same-size targets unless they're not webbed and AB'ing. The increased damage would be balanced by the need to get close, just like it is for everyone else.
And second while I like being able to speedtank missiles I think it's a bit over the top - I would suggest tweaking the formula so sig radius is weighted more and speed less - oversize missiles on small targets should remain the same but the max realistic damage reduction on a same-size target should only be about 50% or so at the most. Right now if I'm not TP'd light missiles bounce off my AFs shields - they do 4 damage a hit, tops. Even with a single painter the increase in DPS isn't that major; I'm basically invulnerable to missile fire as long as I'm not webbed and running my afterburner, which is great for me but I dn't think that's how it should be.
Before the nerf missiles were basically low-but-guaranteed DPS compared to guns, which have to deal with optimals and tracking and all that stuff. And that's how I think they should remain.
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Tasty Bit
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2008.12.03 03:23:00 -
[599]
Where is far, and why did they need to take missiles with them?
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Lt Shard
Shoot To Thrill Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.12.03 04:14:00 -
[600]
who needs missles I have blaster boats! This 20 page whine says stop posting whines!
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Maj Kaji
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Posted - 2008.12.03 04:17:00 -
[601]
Originally by: Lt Shard who needs missles I have blaster boats! This 20 page whine says stop posting whines!
this! except with mining lasers
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McTard
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Posted - 2008.12.03 05:39:00 -
[602]
Originally by: Rico Felix
Caldari ships can't fight in web range cause their tanks are weak? If Caldari have a strength isnt it their ridiculous tanks?
I can't believe how bad at videogames some of you are.
Ok, I'll bite. Rico please tell us how to have a "ridiculous" tank after fitting for short range pvp. Bare bones minimum would be web, scram, mwd(or AB) right? But now a painter is almost mandatory, but let's forget that one for the moment. Excellent, now our BC/CS/BS have a whole 2 or at most 3 slots to tank with. Yep, it's ridiculous alright.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.12.10 18:52:00 -
[603]
Originally by: McTard
Originally by: Rico Felix
Caldari ships can't fight in web range cause their tanks are weak? If Caldari have a strength isnt it their ridiculous tanks?
I can't believe how bad at videogames some of you are.
Ok, I'll bite. Rico please tell us how to have a "ridiculous" tank after fitting for short range pvp. Bare bones minimum would be web, scram, mwd(or AB) right? But now a painter is almost mandatory, but let's forget that one for the moment. Excellent, now our BC/CS/BS have a whole 2 or at most 3 slots to tank with. Yep, it's ridiculous alright.
Don't forget the people who post multiple painter setups and call them a fair compromise for the old missiles.
Seriously CCP, this is ridicilous. Fix missiles. |
Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Haven Front
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Posted - 2008.12.10 19:33:00 -
[604]
Missiles used to do no damage to my Vaga, now they hit me for 40%-60% (depends if i have an AB or MWD fitted). So they suck at killing Frigs, but now do more damage to Cruisers. I vote to go back to the old days of my 6km/s Vaga where missiles were a joke.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.12.10 20:55:00 -
[605]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt Missiles used to do no damage to my Vaga, now they hit me for 40%-60% (depends if i have an AB or MWD fitted). So they suck at killing Frigs, but now do more damage to Cruisers. I vote to go back to the old days of my 6km/s Vaga where missiles were a joke.
Solving one ridiculous issue does not mean they should create more ridiculous issues. Missiles are still in an unacceptable state.
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Tom Sasaki
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Posted - 2008.12.10 21:09:00 -
[606]
Tbh they didnt go far enough.
Cruiseraven outdps any other sniper at long ranges. And they will also deal significant dps at close range to any ship larger than a cruiser.
Torpraven is a bit like a blasterboat in DPS without the problem of tracking. And if you look at the effective DPS done by HAMboats and HMLsetups its out of line when you know that they will always hit , especially when factoring in their ranges.
The only missiletypes that seems to be balanced compared to their turret counterparts atm are light missiles & rockets. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.12.10 21:50:00 -
[607]
Originally by: Tom Sasaki Tbh they didnt go far enough.
Cruiseraven outdps any other sniper at long ranges. And they will also deal significant dps at close range to any ship larger than a cruiser.
Torpraven is a bit like a blasterboat in DPS without the problem of tracking. And if you look at the effective DPS done by HAMboats and HMLsetups its out of line when you know that they will always hit , especially when factoring in their ranges.
The only missiletypes that seems to be balanced compared to their turret counterparts atm are light missiles & rockets.
I bet you fly only misile ships then? Being so overpowered and all..
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:07:00 -
[608]
Originally by: Tom Sasaki Tbh they didnt go far enough.
Cruiseraven outdps any other sniper at long ranges. And they will also deal significant dps at close range to any ship larger than a cruiser.
Torpraven is a bit like a blasterboat in DPS without the problem of tracking. And if you look at the effective DPS done by HAMboats and HMLsetups its out of line when you know that they will always hit , especially when factoring in their ranges.
The only missiletypes that seems to be balanced compared to their turret counterparts atm are light missiles & rockets.
Try flying one of these ships, and come back to me. Missiles have always, always had lower dps (part of why they are considered second rate), especially as speed increased in ANY direction (no need to move at an angle vs a missile ship).
Toss in delayed damage, the fact missile ships shield tank and cant sacrifice midslots; we're up a creek. Some ships could excel in the right hands, and of course FW caldari blobs will be successful, as they're blobs. It was manageable.
Now, they have more drawbacks on top of the old drawbacks, with no redeeming qualities save for now doing minimal damage to fast ships (vs the 0.0 damage), and laughable damage to most ships of the same size or smaller without crippling the tank with multiple painters. Even one is detrimental to survival in comparison to other races.
It's like they took the cane from the crippled beggar.
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:10:00 -
[609]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Tom Sasaki Tbh they didnt go far enough.
Cruiseraven outdps any other sniper at long ranges. And they will also deal significant dps at close range to any ship larger than a cruiser.
Torpraven is a bit like a blasterboat in DPS without the problem of tracking. And if you look at the effective DPS done by HAMboats and HMLsetups its out of line when you know that they will always hit , especially when factoring in their ranges.
The only missiletypes that seems to be balanced compared to their turret counterparts atm are light missiles & rockets.
Try flying one of these ships, and come back to me. Missiles have always, always had lower dps (part of why they are considered second rate), especially as speed increased in ANY direction (no need to move at an angle vs a missile ship).
Toss in delayed damage, the fact missile ships shield tank and cant sacrifice midslots; we're up a creek. Some ships could excel in the right hands, and of course FW caldari blobs will be successful, as they're blobs. It was manageable.
Now, they have more drawbacks on top of the old drawbacks, with no redeeming qualities save for now doing minimal damage to fast ships (vs the 0.0 damage), and laughable damage to most ships of the same size or smaller without crippling the tank with multiple painters. Even one is detrimental to survival in comparison to other races.
It's like they took the cane from the crippled beggar.
Your assumptions about missile shortfalls fascinate me. Have you ever flown a turret ship?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:12:00 -
[610]
I don't think Khamal has ever flown a missile ship either, tbh. Or maybe he's just terrible at it.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:33:00 -
[611]
Originally by: Gypsio III I don't think Khamal has ever flown a missile ship either, tbh. Or maybe he's just terrible at it.
They're all I fly. They just no longer do their jobs :(
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:34:00 -
[612]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Tom Sasaki Tbh they didnt go far enough.
Cruiseraven outdps any other sniper at long ranges. And they will also deal significant dps at close range to any ship larger than a cruiser.
Torpraven is a bit like a blasterboat in DPS without the problem of tracking. And if you look at the effective DPS done by HAMboats and HMLsetups its out of line when you know that they will always hit , especially when factoring in their ranges.
The only missiletypes that seems to be balanced compared to their turret counterparts atm are light missiles & rockets.
Try flying one of these ships, and come back to me. Missiles have always, always had lower dps (part of why they are considered second rate), especially as speed increased in ANY direction (no need to move at an angle vs a missile ship).
Toss in delayed damage, the fact missile ships shield tank and cant sacrifice midslots; we're up a creek. Some ships could excel in the right hands, and of course FW caldari blobs will be successful, as they're blobs. It was manageable.
Now, they have more drawbacks on top of the old drawbacks, with no redeeming qualities save for now doing minimal damage to fast ships (vs the 0.0 damage), and laughable damage to most ships of the same size or smaller without crippling the tank with multiple painters. Even one is detrimental to survival in comparison to other races.
It's like they took the cane from the crippled beggar.
Your assumptions about missile shortfalls fascinate me. Have you ever flown a turret ship?
Sometimes, but I've been on the receiving end of them often enough.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:54:00 -
[613]
Well, I have no idea how you used to fly missile ships, or how you want to fly them. But missile ship damage is not, and never was, bad - neither the paper EFT damage, nor the "damage dealt" sums in game. They do not handle smaller targets "worse" than guns, they handle them differently.
HAMs and torps are unchanged in their ability to deliver full DPS against PVP-fit BCs and BS, respectively. LMs are now capable of damaging all frigates - and since frigates have feeble tanks some degree of damage mitigation is fairly inconsequential. HMs are vastly superior now. Rockets and Cruise have problems - rockets require a web that is difficult to fit on a frigate, and Cruise is an antisupport weapon that simply isn't used much against its theoretical target of other BS.
I am delighted with the performance of missiles since the patch. They are far more useful in combat.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.12.11 11:39:00 -
[614]
Originally by: Gypsio III
HAMs and torps are unchanged in their ability to deliver full DPS against PVP-fit BCs and BS, respectively.
All a BS has to do is move >160m/s to reduce T1/faction torp damage, when it's sig is painted up to 650, and the shooter has perfect skills. 100m/s for Rage. Didn't check BC's yet, but they should no doubt get reduced dmg even sooner.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.12.11 11:41:00 -
[615]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Gypsio III
HAMs and torps are unchanged in their ability to deliver full DPS against PVP-fit BCs and BS, respectively.
All a BS has to do is move >160m/s to reduce T1/faction torp damage, when it's sig is painted up to 650, and the shooter has perfect skills. 100m/s for Rage. Didn't check BC's yet, but they should no doubt get reduced dmg even sooner.
Because every BS fits an AB or has a base speed over 160m/s?
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Flossing
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:01:00 -
[616]
Edited by: Flossing on 11/12/2008 12:02:07 My mission runner uses a cruise using raven, and to be perfectly honest, the only big difference i have noticed is you cant kill fast moving small frigs with them anymore, same way as you cant kill them with large guns, which kind of is how it should be.
Tbh i only really noticed this when doing worlds collide mission level 4, because i used to not use drones on this mission until i was on the last pack, as the other packs agro drones in a few seconds. So only time i noticed the diff was when i wasnt using drones for frigates (which is how you should killing frigs with a Raven anyway).
So whats the major difference to me, very little as a mission runner, extra minute or two and few extra missiles used per mission.
Big WooHaa deal. lol major fuss over nothing as far as im concerned.
Anybody who now cannot do level 4 missions in a raven when they say they could before, just need to learn to play properly.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:10:00 -
[617]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 11/12/2008 12:15:43
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Gypsio III
HAMs and torps are unchanged in their ability to deliver full DPS against PVP-fit BCs and BS, respectively.
All a BS has to do is move >160m/s to reduce T1/faction torp damage, when it's sig is painted up to 650, and the shooter has perfect skills. 100m/s for Rage. Didn't check BC's yet, but they should no doubt get reduced dmg even sooner.
Because every BS fits an AB or has a base speed over 160m/s?
BS with ABs? BS with ABs that are immune to webs?
Please, less of this clueless EFT theorycraft and more realistic situations. AB on a BS is stupid, and the AB speed-tank largely disappears as soon as you get webbed, which you will be.
And before you start screaming that you now need to fit a web and painter on your Raven:
Close-range weapons have always needed a web to keep the target tackled. Raven isn't a solo boat, nor should it be; your gang has one web at least. Torp Raven has always needed a painter to get full damage on all non-Caldari tier 1-2 BS.
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Nalgrim
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:13:00 -
[618]
i think the nerf was good, now you actually have to think what youre shooting at with missiles... earlier you just fitted a missileboat with the largest missiles and kill everything now you basically have to fit atleast a targetpainter and some assault missile launchers to kill smaller ships, its same for turrets, try using some large rails on small ships at range less than 5km and you know what i mean.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:13:00 -
[619]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Gypsio III
HAMs and torps are unchanged in their ability to deliver full DPS against PVP-fit BCs and BS, respectively.
All a BS has to do is move >160m/s to reduce T1/faction torp damage, when it's sig is painted up to 650, and the shooter has perfect skills. 100m/s for Rage. Didn't check BC's yet, but they should no doubt get reduced dmg even sooner.
Because every BS fits an AB or has a base speed over 160m/s?
BS with ABs? BS with ABs that are immune to webs?
Please, less of this clueless EFT theorycraft and more realistic situations. AB on a BS is stupid, and the AB speed-tank largely disappears as soon as you get webbed, which you will be.
Ding. Any BS fitting MWD will actually receive MORE damage due to sig bloom.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:40:00 -
[620]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 11/12/2008 12:41:21
Originally by: Gypsio III
Please, less of this clueless EFT theorycraft and more realistic situations. AB on a BS is stupid, and the AB speed-tank largely disappears as soon as you get webbed, which you will be.
And before you start screaming that you now need to fit a web and painter on your Raven:
Close-range weapons have always needed a web to keep the target tackled. Raven isn't a solo boat, nor should it be; your gang has one web at least. Torp Raven has always needed a painter to get full damage on all non-Caldari tier 1-2 BS.
There's no eft in my calcs ;-) And you don't get most BS's up to 650 sig with just one painter from a Raven.
Say Raven vs Phoon, 1 painter. Phoon will take 9% reduced dmg at it's base speed, with skilled pilot, aka 160m/s. Is that significant? Whether it is, or isn't, it still shows the situation isn't unchanged, asyou said it was.
Or a Harbinger as target. It will take 13% reduction when moving without propulsion mods.
But sure, sure, when any BS or BC is triple painted and webbed from your gang of ships, then torps will do full damage. Hell, you can probably even use Rage's on Battelships.
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.12.11 14:36:00 -
[621]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 11/12/2008 14:37:10
I've been playing with missiles for hours and hours trying to fathom an exact opinion.
I came to a few conclusions.
- Rockets suck epically, but they sucked epically before anyway, so still noone will use them.
- standard launchers look fine to me.
- Heavy launchers got smacked good, but generally there is a balance to what they've done to them, even if it is a tiny OTT in my opinion. Precision missiles should be a tiny bit more effective then they currently are imo.
- Heavy Assault Launchers were overpowered and due for a nerf we were told anyway. Still work ok.
- Cruise missiles I found only did max damage against a non AB or MWDing Battleship at full speed when used with 2 target painters, was odd, but the damage they do normally is still semi reasonable at about 65% of the max.
- Torpedoes, these hit for seriously pathetic damage against battleships that arent webbed. They're a bit of a joke now in my opinion. Your fitting requirements are also very strained fitting even 5 of 6 siege launchers. The torpedo raven setups I've tried are completely made of fail. Blaster rokh was a much more preferable and workable choice.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 15:59:00 -
[622]
Originally by: Qui Shon There's no eft in my calcs ;-) And you don't get most BS's up to 650 sig with just one painter from a Raven.
Say Raven vs Phoon, 1 painter. Phoon will take 9% reduced dmg at it's base speed, with skilled pilot, aka 160m/s. Is that significant? Whether it is, or isn't, it still shows the situation isn't unchanged, asyou said it was.
Or a Harbinger as target. It will take 13% reduction when moving without propulsion mods.
But sure, sure, when any BS or BC is triple painted and webbed from your gang of ships, then torps will do full damage. Hell, you can probably even use Rage's on Battelships.
Oh, this is just stupid. The situation is broadly unchanged in practice - just not in your fantasy world of unwebbed BS travelling at max speeds.
1. Base speed is largely irrelevant. You hardly ever shoot at a target travelling at base speed, especially not with close-range weapons, because you need to have your target webbed to stop it getting away.
2. Typhoon has a tiny (for a BS) sig and is a terrible example to give. Even so, a webbed, painted Typhoon will take about 97% damage when going flat out - which it won't be, it'll be trying to manoeuvre in some fashion.
3. Harbinger isn't a BS.
Quote: Rockets suck epically, but they sucked epically before anyway, so still noone will use them.
- standard launchers look fine to me.
- Heavy launchers got smacked good, but generally there is a balance to what they've done to them, even if it is a tiny OTT in my opinion. Precision missiles should be a tiny bit more effective then they currently are imo.
- Heavy Assault Launchers were overpowered and due for a nerf we were told anyway. Still work ok.
- Cruise missiles I found only did max damage against a non AB or MWDing Battleship at full speed when used with 2 target painters, was odd, but the damage they do normally is still semi reasonable at about 65% of the max.
- Torpedoes, these hit for seriously pathetic damage against battleships that arent webbed. They're a bit of a joke now in my opinion. Your fitting requirements are also very strained fitting even 5 of 6 siege launchers. The torpedo raven setups I've tried are completely made of fail. Blaster rokh was a much more preferable and workable choice.
Yeah rockets have problems, because the frigates that they're mounted on often have trouble fitting a web, and frigates are the only ship class where it's really sensible to fit an AB. Still, their 10 km range is nice, especially compared to the difficulty of getting to blaster/AC optimal.
LMs: easier to mitigate damage, impossible for inties to avoid it now. Since frigates typically don't have much tank, overall this is an improvement.
HMs: vastly superior to before, when it was trivial for a speed-fit cruiser to avoid their damage almost completely.
Cruise. You don't need two painters, Cruise will do ~90% damage against a base-speed (for what that's worth) Typhoon. Cruise's problem is one of role - you don't use it to shoot BS, it's used to hit cruiser-sized support, especially ewar platforms. on one hand, those ships can't now avoid Cruise damage simply by hitting MWD; on the other, their damage taken while not MWD is significantly less than before.
HAMs: Unchanged in practice - a webbed ABing Hurricane takes full damage from Rage.
Torps: Unchanged in practice - your BS needs to webbed and painted as much as before.
Precisions: made almost pointless by gimped range and minimal superiority over CN.
Also bear in mind that any analysis of the value of missiles needs to consider the greater difficulty of turret ships in getting to and staying at optimal, then tracking once they get there. This greatly favours HAMs/torps over blasters/ACs.
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Randibuggah
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Posted - 2008.12.11 17:33:00 -
[623]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien [ It's like they took the cane from the crippled beggar.
/signed for the BEST description of the new Caldari Missile player.. EVAR!!
It woud be even funnier if it wasn't so dammed accurate..
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Donna Maria
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.11 19:24:00 -
[624]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Vikarion To kill AF:
Fit: 1 Web 1 Scram 1 Heavy Neut
Activate all on your target and saute gently. Serve to taste.
Rather unnecessary.
Web ⇒ reduces target speed to 4-500m/s ù still too fast to hit. Scram ⇒ pointless because the target uses an AB ù use a good old disruptor instead. Neut ⇒ Ok, this worksà
Umm, this fails against ships like the Raptor.
If I fit a Scrambler (t2 with max skills gives around 12km) and 2 nos I can run my scrambler on you even if you NOS me. I just time my NOS cycles to offset your Neut. And I can fit a small shield booster and permarun it all.
Im the girl momma warned you about..
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Motaka
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Posted - 2008.12.11 19:36:00 -
[625]
After 5 and half years of playing this game it never gets old reading these forums watching scrubs cry about a game change,i go to bed at night with a smile on my face. _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.12.12 05:16:00 -
[626]
Originally by: Randibuggah
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien [ It's like they took the cane from the crippled beggar.
/signed for the BEST description of the new Caldari Missile player.. EVAR!!
It woud be even funnier if it wasn't so dammed accurate..
Yeah, kinda grim.
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yourdoingitwrong
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Posted - 2008.12.12 06:35:00 -
[627]
nothing is grim missiles are working as intended and you simply dont like it. time to suck it up. if you think there is something wrong with missiles you simply need moar skills. or you fail at eve and life in general. whine moar pls nothing will change
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Lord Untrustable
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Posted - 2008.12.12 06:37:00 -
[628]
Originally by: branodn lee as the subject says, who thinks ccp went to far on the nerf of missiles.
Carebear tears...
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Sylper Illysten
Caldari Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.12.12 07:08:00 -
[629]
Originally by: yourdoingitwrong nothing is grim missiles are working as intended and you simply dont like it. time to suck it up. if you think there is something wrong with missiles you simply need moar skills. or you fail at eve and life in general. whine moar pls nothing will change
So it's logical that cruise missiles are a BS weapon best used on cruiser sized targets?
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yourdoingitwrong
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Posted - 2008.12.13 02:47:00 -
[630]
you have no clue what your talking about. ^^
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.13 03:06:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Nalgrim earlier you just fitted a missileboat with the largest missiles and kill everything
I really do my best not to laugh here
I tried, and failed at that.
Come on everyone, just admit you're jealous that Caldari was the best PvE race... And you have a hatred against cloaking Ravens in 0.0.
Guess what? They're still there. Now you just have to deal with cloaking BS of other races too. And if you catch these, they're not as easy a prey as a Raven.
rgds
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Smelts
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Posted - 2008.12.14 05:25:00 -
[632]
Edited by: Smelts on 14/12/2008 05:29:23 Please explain the logic behind having long range, long delay to hit weapon system relying on a 10km range module (webber) before they can hit for more than half their full damage (at ANY range.. target can be 10m or 150km, speed determines mitigation).
Only rockets and assaults require you to have your ship inside 10kms to hit.. all other missiles work at far longer ranges. lights, heavy, cruise and torpedo all now told to get inside 10km to web a target to do any damage worth mentioning.
Seriously. Please explain this logic. This is the one and only reason CCP failed so spectacularly in this missile nerf. Its sheer idiocy.
Target painters.. Ok, those are alright as a 60'ish km range painter does cover the max range of all but cruise missiles..and shooting farther than 60km does call for a bit of mitigation.
However, we still do not see a balance as to WHY missiles, which have a very high delayed time to hit the target.. have such a dramatic damage mitigation.
We still do not see why missiles, which can be intercepted in flight by defender missiles.. which can be 100% destroyed by medium and large smartbombs (by ANY cruiser+ sized ship) ... receive so many penalties.
Seriously.. missiles now have too many drawbacks, too little reasons to use them in pvp.
(nobody cares about PVE as any imbecile can kill the non-AI equipped 'rats')
Finally, why is it that missiles have an almost binary damage mitigation compared to turrets?
Missiles coming at you? Switch on the AB. As long as you fly more than 200ms (speed reached very quickly even on a BS) the missiles will do laughable damage to your ship.
Missiles coming at you? Switch on the smartbomb when missile is 15km away. Smartbombs will kill ANY missile inside its radius... be it one missile or 1000 missiles fired at it in a volley.
How come turrets do not receive this kind of mitigation?
What button must I press to receive instant 50% damage reduction no matter the speed or the range of my attacker?
What module must I practice my timing on & master it in 10 minutes to stop all incoming turret fire?
and before I haz my cheezburger, when will turrets receive a delay to hit nerf so I can align and warp my ship out before I get hit by the first or second volley?
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Bohoba
Caldari HolyKnights
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Posted - 2008.12.14 06:59:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Smelts Edited by: Smelts on 14/12/2008 05:29:23 and before I haz my cheezburger, when will turrets receive a delay to hit nerf so I can align and warp my ship out before I get hit by the first or second volley?
I like how you put that and now I am hungry for a cheesburge :)
....................... 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
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ZenSun
Total Mayhem. Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.12.14 09:42:00 -
[634]
BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA... another *****y whine thread, train pulse lasers newwwbssss.
nuff said m'kay? woops |
Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.14 09:42:00 -
[635]
Originally by: Smelts Edited by: Smelts on 14/12/2008 05:29:23 Please explain the logic behind having long range, long delay to hit weapon system relying on a 10km range module (webber) before they can hit for more than half their full damage (at ANY range.. target can be 10m or 150km, speed determines mitigation).
Only rockets and assaults require you to have your ship inside 10kms to hit.. all other missiles work at far longer ranges. lights, heavy, cruise and torpedo all now told to get inside 10km to web a target to do any damage worth mentioning.
Seriously. Please explain this logic. This is the one and only reason CCP failed so spectacularly in this missile nerf. Its sheer idiocy.
Target painters.. Ok, those are alright as a 60'ish km range painter does cover the max range of all but cruise missiles..and shooting farther than 60km does call for a bit of mitigation.
However, we still do not see a balance as to WHY missiles, which have a very high delayed time to hit the target.. have such a dramatic damage mitigation.
We still do not see why missiles, which can be intercepted in flight by defender missiles.. which can be 100% destroyed by medium and large smartbombs (by ANY cruiser+ sized ship) ... receive so many penalties.
Seriously.. missiles now have too many drawbacks, too little reasons to use them in pvp.
(nobody cares about PVE as any imbecile can kill the non-AI equipped 'rats')
Finally, why is it that missiles have an almost binary damage mitigation compared to turrets?
Missiles coming at you? Switch on the AB. As long as you fly more than 200ms (speed reached very quickly even on a BS) the missiles will do laughable damage to your ship.
Missiles coming at you? Switch on the smartbomb when missile is 15km away. Smartbombs will kill ANY missile inside its radius... be it one missile or 1000 missiles fired at it in a volley.
How come turrets do not receive this kind of mitigation?
What button must I press to receive instant 50% damage reduction no matter the speed or the range of my attacker?
What module must I practice my timing on & master it in 10 minutes to stop all incoming turret fire?
and before I haz my cheezburger, when will turrets receive a delay to hit nerf so I can align and warp my ship out before I get hit by the first or second volley?
Because turret damage can be mitigated down to ZERO. Not 50%, not 40%, but an entire big fat nothing at all. Just by going in a circle. People rarely fit a smart bomb or defender missile, and I'd go ahead and say they do it far less than they fit a tracking disruptor. Suck a duck and stop complaining.
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SPQRMocton
Minmatar Hand Of Bethke
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Posted - 2008.12.14 11:11:00 -
[636]
I fly Caldari , and since you hate the new rules , haz your stuff can I ?
And no I don't think they went to far (try using some drones)
Fly reckless and take chances..............it's more fun |
Ban Dwagon
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Posted - 2008.12.14 11:23:00 -
[637]
I think CCP went too far on the missile nerf. Cruise missiles won't hit bs for full damage. Stealth bombers suck even more. Missiles are an even worse option for pvp than they were before, and they were terrible for pvp.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.12.14 11:55:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Karille Because turret damage can be mitigated down to ZERO. Not 50%, not 40%, but an entire big fat nothing at all. Just by going in a circle. People rarely fit a smart bomb or defender missile, and I'd go ahead and say they do it far less than they fit a tracking disruptor. Suck a duck and stop complaining.
Transversal works both ways m'kay?
If that's all you can come up with to counter those arguments, just stop trying. "I have to maneuver my ship to to win", jeez.
Throwing transversal around in these arguments like it's an "I win"-button is honestly pathetic. All you have to do is freckin' look around you when you're out flying, and you can see what's King of the Hill in PvP. It ****ing ain't missiles. People seem to be doing just fine with transversal. I don't hear "OMGZ he's ORBITING me" anywhere
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.14 12:30:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Karille Because turret damage can be mitigated down to ZERO. Not 50%, not 40%, but an entire big fat nothing at all. Just by going in a circle. People rarely fit a smart bomb or defender missile, and I'd go ahead and say they do it far less than they fit a tracking disruptor. Suck a duck and stop complaining.
Transversal works both ways m'kay?
If that's all you can come up with to counter those arguments, just stop trying. "I have to maneuver my ship to to win", jeez.
Throwing transversal around in these arguments like it's an "I win"-button is honestly pathetic. All you have to do is freckin' look around you when you're out flying, and you can see what's King of the Hill in PvP. It ****ing ain't missiles. People seem to be doing just fine with transversal. I don't hear "OMGZ he's ORBITING me" anywhere
On the contrary, people complain about tracking all the time.
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AkRoYeR
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.14 12:37:00 -
[640]
3 weeks ago called...they want their threadnought back!
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2008.12.14 12:40:00 -
[641]
Originally by: AkRoYeR 3 weeks ago called...they want their threadnought back!
QFT
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Toshiro Khan
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.14 13:15:00 -
[642]
I wonder if there are days when someone at CCP regrets them changing the Ravens bonuses from it being a railgun platform to a missle platform.
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Vicious Merquise
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Posted - 2008.12.14 13:40:00 -
[643]
BOO on nerfing da missile cause I'am CALDARI and upset at this like all my other CALDARI comrades are ya to far da went ect...Let my brothers go and what not.
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Karl Luckner
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Posted - 2008.12.14 14:04:00 -
[644]
Well, not everything changed with the patch is pure evil. But some things are just stupid. Rockets don't hit their usual targets for enough damage, and the concept for cruise missiles is just stupid. Due to the need of target painting, they have added optimal and falloff to cruise missiles. But the damage is as delayed as before the patch. But I guess cruise missile snipers where that overpowered, the Devs had to do something. I mean nobody even thought about using a turret sniper in fleets.
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SPQRMocton
Minmatar Hand Of Bethke
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Posted - 2008.12.14 23:56:00 -
[645]
Originally by: Karl Luckner Well, not everything changed with the patch is pure evil. But some things are just stupid. Rockets don't hit their usual targets for enough damage, and the concept for cruise missiles is just stupid. Due to the need of target painting, they have added optimal and falloff to cruise missiles. But the damage is as delayed as before the patch. But I guess cruise missile snipers where that overpowered, the Devs had to do something. I mean nobody even thought about using a turret sniper in fleets.
O Karl , your such a meanie pointing out the truth
Fly reckless and take chances..............it's more fun |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Coriault Combat Solutions Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.17 05:32:00 -
[646]
Originally by: Karl Luckner Well, not everything changed with the patch is pure evil. But some things are just stupid. Rockets don't hit their usual targets for enough damage, and the concept for cruise missiles is just stupid. Due to the need of target painting, they have added optimal and falloff to cruise missiles. But the damage is as delayed as before the patch. But I guess cruise missile snipers where that overpowered, the Devs had to do something. I mean nobody even thought about using a turret sniper in fleets.
this
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KalEl Trask
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Posted - 2008.12.17 08:53:00 -
[647]
I agree, This went way to far. I feel like 8 months of training was thrown away with this..... uhhmmm patch!
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Gogstein
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:13:00 -
[648]
For PvE the CNR has no problems still imho. Im still using it + drones to get smaller targets.
For PvP...go gallente, i know i did.
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:14:00 -
[649]
I know it's not right to speak for other people, but I'm sure ISK farmers in their Navy Ravens are super angry.
Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too. |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Coriault Combat Solutions Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.17 20:11:00 -
[650]
Originally by: Gogstein For PvE the CNR has no problems still imho. Im still using it + drones to get smaller targets.
For PvP...go gallente, i know i did.
Yeah :( I could care less about PVE, but I don't want to be forced into another race just to pvp. Adapting is one thing, but completely training up an entirely different set of skills is another. Old missile formula was never overpowered.
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Karille
Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.17 20:31:00 -
[651]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Gogstein For PvE the CNR has no problems still imho. Im still using it + drones to get smaller targets.
For PvP...go gallente, i know i did.
Yeah :( I could care less about PVE, but I don't want to be forced into another race just to pvp. Adapting is one thing, but completely training up an entirely different set of skills is another. Old missile formula was never overpowered.
You have to be kidding. Large missiles did WAY too much damage to small targets.
Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too. |
SiJira
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Posted - 2008.12.17 21:46:00 -
[652]
isnt every change going too far? Trashed sig, Shark was here |
KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.12.17 22:02:00 -
[653]
Edited by: KhaniKirai on 17/12/2008 22:02:54
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Gogstein For PvE the CNR has no problems still imho. Im still using it + drones to get smaller targets.
For PvP...go gallente, i know i did.
Yeah :( I could care less about PVE, but I don't want to be forced into another race just to pvp. Adapting is one thing, but completely training up an entirely different set of skills is another. Old missile formula was never overpowered.
You have to be kidding. Large missiles did WAY too much damage to small targets.
yeah 0.1 damage was really too much and 20 a 30 damage vs orbiting inty was also too much with precision cruise and flare/rigor rigs fitted
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Daxel Magmalloy
Caldari Praetorian BlackGuard
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Posted - 2008.12.17 22:35:00 -
[654]
Edited by: Daxel Magmalloy on 17/12/2008 22:35:19 Missiles needed to be nerfed for FW. Even I know that. Adapt or die. Simple.
Was training up missiles and BS skills and got myself into a Raven the day after the expansion, so don't know how fast missions were beforehand, but missions are now considerably faster than in the Drake and that's good enough for me.
Don't see what the fuss is about tbh. Training up new skills and learning to fly new ships is fun. :)
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Bohoba
Caldari HolyKnights
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Posted - 2008.12.17 22:53:00 -
[655]
Edited by: Bohoba on 17/12/2008 22:54:31
Originally by: Daxel Magmalloy Edited by: Daxel Magmalloy on 17/12/2008 22:35:19 Missiles needed to be nerfed for FW. Even I know that. Adapt or die. Simple.
Was training up missiles and BS skills and got myself into a Raven the day after the expansion, so don't know how fast missions were beforehand, but missions are now considerably faster than in the Drake and that's good enough for me.
Don't see what the fuss is about tbh. Training up new skills and learning to fly new ships is fun. :)
not about mission runners m8, its about pvp if you go to the dev board there is a guy with graphs that show how much dps the turrets put out and the torp raven is the lowest Oh please give my torps a wreaking of 2200 like the rails done to a moving crow just saw it again done yesterday
Oh well winers won this one so am retired from pvp.
....................... 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.12.18 16:56:00 -
[656]
Yeah, most people posting silly things like: train more skills, dont realize, that some people that say the nerf went too far, ALREADY got the skills maximum :D
Problem with the whole missile calculation is more: with low skills, its worse then before. with decent skills, its bit worse then before. with medium skills, you barely notice any difference. with GOOD skills, you suddenly realize, you got really nerved a LOT. Thats how the calculations are working in game. The bonus on some missile skills should be increased a little bit, to make it balanced again, because damage is now way too hardcapped by speed of target and nothing to do about it really. The improvement percent on the skill, that increases missile explosion velocity for example is too small. It was good before the change, but its now not doing its job well.
The MWD change doesnt help missile users at all: the signature penalty of the target, is cancelled out by the target speed bonus. However, the signature change on mwd does help turrets more then before the patch. You will hit better then before. Drones also hit them better :/
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J Ripper
Caldari Silent Retaliation
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Posted - 2008.12.18 17:46:00 -
[657]
I'm back on my 5 day account reactivation...
Just want to say i'm gutted at this nerf! (and ghost training - thats another subject)
at least I didnt have to pay for the 5 days lol
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