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Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3254	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:04:00 - [91] - Quote Toku Jiang wrote: As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Actually if you use lethal force in most countries, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Jenn aSide STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries 1104	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:07:00 - [92] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Toku Jiang wrote: As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Actually if you use lethal force in most countries, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him. Which is why I'm glad I live in Texas (where the legal assumption is that someone entering your home means to do you harm, which then allows for legal use of force, up to and including Deadly Force). None of that pansy "duty to retreat" crap. Texas is a lot like EVE, hell it might be why I like EVE
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 583	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:11:00 - [93] - Quote NRDS works just fine. The Alliance standings entry limit should be at around 100,000 but that has nothing to do with NRDS. It would be nice to see formal NAP flagging too. If Goons and FA are part of a Coalition, they should have a flag system that identifies one another as CFC. Provi Bloc, same thing. Thus freeing up blue standings options. The strange thing I found about NBSI was, they all have reds. With NRDS you need to set Blue to eliminate station costs but with NBSI, it's all fair game. The last NBSI alliance I was in even went so far as to set the uber enemies -5 orange because they had so many reds, they needed a new way to define the people I would have shot at anyway?
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3254	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:16:00 - [94] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: Toku Jiang wrote: As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Actually if you use lethal force in most countries, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him. Which is why I'm glad I live in Texas (where the legal assumption is that someone entering your home means to do you harm, which then allows for legal use of force, up to and including Deadly Force). None of that pansy "duty to retreat" crap. Texas is a lot like EVE, hell it might be why I like EVE Well, I did specify "civilized". To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6240	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:16:00 - [95] - Quote Ocih wrote: NRDS works just fine. yes, because every NRDS alliance is effectively NBSI because they set every NBSI group in existence red ~a proud belligerent undesirable~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~
Lord Zim 2247	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:18:00 - [96] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: What the hell happened to treaties anyways? I was so looking forward to breaking as many treaties as my alliance could sign :) . They got flushed down the toilet, along with most of what was "planned" for dominion, which is why it turned out to be the suck a bag of dicks expansion. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
Merouk Baas 393	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:18:00 - [97] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Actually NRDS (or some variation on it) could work but it would require some basic game mechanic changes/additions. You're asking for an automated secure transaction to rent space (and become blue), and you're offering tax revenue incentives to the SOV holder to open their gates. Diplo's have a lot of work on their plate, but giving up control over who is blue, that's not something they'll want to let go of. If any spy can pay a fee and become blue, with no API check and no interview, that's worse than NRDS. And offering taxes to sov holders, that's the same as offering tax breaks for carebears to go into lowsec. They don't need your piddly taxes, and they don't need more people in their area, they're perfectly fine the way they are. I'd be willing to bet they'll all set the tax to 100% just to drive the point home that they don't need you there. Everyone who uses NBSI is fine with it, and they don't need more people crowding their areas.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 3618	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:19:00 - [98] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: NRDS doesn't scale and NBSI is an excuse for some people to not move into nullsec. They could easily move into NPC nullsec if they wanted, and start practicing NRDS all they want, or they can move to CVA space and play with likeminded people. They'll quickly end up basically treating NRDS as NBSI just because it makes life so much easier. But noooooooo. I did not find NPC nullsec so much NRDS tbh. It's way more NBSI than sov nullsec ever hopes to be. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 6844	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:20:00 - [99] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Is there a difference between "Not Blue Shoot It" and "Not Red Do Shoot"? Mostly in how you react to players who are neither blue nor red. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button."
Lord Zim 2247	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:20:00 - [100] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Toku Jiang wrote: As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Actually if you use lethal force in most civilized nations, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 6844	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:20:00 - [101] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Lord Zim wrote: NRDS doesn't scale and NBSI is an excuse for some people to not move into nullsec. They could easily move into NPC nullsec if they wanted, and start practicing NRDS all they want, or they can move to CVA space and play with likeminded people. They'll quickly end up basically treating NRDS as NBSI just because it makes life so much easier. But noooooooo. I did not find NPC nullsec so much NRDS tbh. It's way more NBSI than sov nullsec ever hopes to be. They're both NBSi; NPC 0.0 just has more of the "NB" part. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button."
Lord Zim 2247	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:23:00 - [102] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I did not find NPC nullsec so much NRDS tbh. It's way more NBSI than sov nullsec ever hopes to be. Doesn't stop them from trying to practice NRDS. As I said, they'll quickly endup basically treating their NRDS as NBSI simply because it makes life so much easier. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 583	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:27:00 - [103] - Quote Andski wrote: Ocih wrote: NRDS works just fine. yes, because every NRDS alliance is effectively NBSI because they set every NBSI group in existence red That is by choice of the reds though. You don't seem to or don't want to understand that NRDS at least in the case of CVA is defined by piracy as well. Not only is CVA NRDS, they are anti pirate. I left several fleets in my Provi years because they shot at your Yong POS guys. It was done as an unprovoked act of piracy and was in conflict with CVA doctrine. If you refuse to roleplay your own code of conduct, you are worse than the people who don't bother to even have a self imposed code of conduct.
Merouk Baas 393	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:31:00 - [104] - Quote Their point is that if it's the choice of the enemy, then it's not a policy that they have control over. With NBSI, you decide who's blue and whom you shoot, the reds (or neutrals) have no say. With NRDS you just keep adding people to the red list, keep adding and keep adding until everyone is red, no neutrals left.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 3618	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:32:00 - [105] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I did not find NPC nullsec so much NRDS tbh. It's way more NBSI than sov nullsec ever hopes to be. Doesn't stop them from trying to practice NRDS. As I said, they'll quickly endup basically treating their NRDS as NBSI simply because it makes life so much easier. Hmm I really really wanted to be not shot in there when I entered their ratting systems, yet those ebil guys kept shooting at me. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3254	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:32:00 - [106] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: Toku Jiang wrote: As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Actually if you use lethal force in most civilized nations, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law Thank you. I believe the pertinent part is: "Stand your ground" governs U.S. federal case law in which right of self-defense is asserted against a charge of criminal homicide. The Supreme Court of the United States ruled in Beard v. U.S. (158 U.S. 550 (1895)) that a man who was "on his premises" when he came under attack and "...did not provoke the assault, and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm...was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground."[2][3] Emphasis mine. So if that kid grabs your stuff and runs, and you plug him, that would be a charge of criminal homicide. Now if he whips out a gun or knife, or otherwise presents himself in a way where you would have reason to fear for your life and/or believe he was going to do you bodily harm, then that is a whole different kettle of fish. You might also keep in mind that if, while he is running away, he slips on grease you have carelessly left on the floor of the garage he can sue you with a high probablity of success. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Proletariat Tingtango GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 225	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:33:00 - [107] - Quote NRDS sounds like a really cool gimmick to abuse to set-up some kind of honeypot where a lot of things get blown up.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3254	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:42:00 - [108] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: Actually NRDS (or some variation on it) could work but it would require some basic game mechanic changes/additions. You're asking for an automated secure transaction to rent space (and become blue), and you're offering tax revenue incentives to the SOV holder to open their gates. Diplo's have a lot of work on their plate, but giving up control over who is blue, that's not something they'll want to let go of. If any spy can pay a fee and become blue, with no API check and no interview, that's worse than NRDS. And offering taxes to sov holders, that's the same as offering tax breaks for carebears to go into lowsec. They don't need your piddly taxes, and they don't need more people in their area, they're perfectly fine the way they are. I'd be willing to bet they'll all set the tax to 100% just to drive the point home that they don't need you there. Everyone who uses NBSI is fine with it, and they don't need more people crowding their areas. I think you misunderstand, and it's probably my fault for not specifying. In no case would a standing be changed to Blue if you accept the "contract" or fee (it would remain the same as before), however if you failed to pay your status would be changed to Red, Orange, whatever the Sov holder specifies. This means that if you were Red already, you would still be Red even after paying your fee (not that you would bother to pay it). Most of the time this would mean that if you are neutral you would remain neutral, but in a NRDS area this means you are still "safe" from the Sov holders aggression (unless you do something that makes them want to manually change their status). To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 583	Posted - 2013.01.04 17:42:00 - [109] - Quote Proletariat Tingtango wrote: NRDS sounds like a really cool gimmick to abuse to set-up some kind of honeypot where a lot of things get blown up. Your tin foil hat is showing. Granted, yes it is open to abuse. Most things in EVE are. Every Anti pirate, NRDS alliance and corp I have encountered had a genuine desire to allow neutrals freedom of movement. If for no other reason than that was the type of member they attracted by claiming it as a goal. Corruption will happen. It happens in CVA, it happens in GSF, it happens in CCP. Policy or doctrine don't get dictated by the corrupt. That's a losing battle.
Skex Relbore Space Exploitation Inc Get Off My Lawn 212	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:12:00 - [110] - Quote Katran Luftschreck wrote: Nullbears always whine how they want more players to come there, but at the end of the day all they really want is more serfs to make their e-peens feel bigger and more baby seals to club. So trying to get them to make any kind of positive change to nullsec is never going to happen. They are incapable of thinking in that way. They only understand negative change, hence it's all just a "nerf hisec" mantra for them. You know the only time I've ever seen this sentiment expressed is by whiny losers who couldn't actually hack it in null . Why on earth (or space) would we want more people in null? More people means more risk, more potential awoxers, more spies, more competition for rats and resources, it means more disruptions to our isk making activities. Unless we're deployed I'm not comfortable in any system where the population won't fit my local window without scrolling. The whole point of taking and holding SOV the reward for sitting in all those blobs people like to whine about, grinding all those structures and suffering through Boat stories is we get a bit of space that is our own (as long as we can defend it) to exploit to improve our game experience by letting us accumulate assets that we can then use to turn around and kick someone's teeth in away from our space. We don't want more people out here and we most certainly aren't interested in the sort of anti-social mouth breathers who can't manage the minimal social graces required to join a corporation. You and the OP are trying to address a problem that doesn't exist. NBSI isn't the default state because the mean ole null dictators forced it on everyone. It's the default state because it's the best policy. In EVE combat, hell in combat period, the advantage generally goes to the aggressor. NRDS gives the advantage to the outsider in that the local resident is forced to wait until the outsider takes an aggressive action before being able to react. In most cases in this game that's pretty much the end of the fight as the outsider is unlikely to take the initial aggressive action unless they are reasonably assured of success. NBSI levels the playing field in that both parties have equal opportunity to take aggressive action first. The outsider can't just get into optimal scan your ship and then decide whether or not to fight you based on how certain they are of victory. NBSI makes it much easier to know friend from foe, if they aren't a friend they are automatically a foe. Personally I think there are two types of people who avoid null sec, the anti-social unlikable and those who are misinformed (or perhaps victimized by a poor alliance in the past) about what life in SOV null is all about.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Air The Unthinkables 2456	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:21:00 - [111] - Quote Proletariat Tingtango wrote: NRDS sounds like a really cool gimmick to abuse to set-up some kind of honeypot where a lot of things get blown up. next thing you'll be suggesting is that cva has alts
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 2362	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:25:00 - [112] - Quote So the case was made for NRDS. People rushed in making the case for NBSI. NRDS is a failure, say those who shoot anything that is not blue. So, how's that empty and boring nullsec working out for ya?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3187	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:28:00 - [113] - Quote Skex Relbore wrote: Katran Luftschreck wrote: Nullbears always whine how they want more players to come there, but at the end of the day all they really want is more serfs to make their e-peens feel bigger and more baby seals to club. So trying to get them to make any kind of positive change to nullsec is never going to happen. They are incapable of thinking in that way. They only understand negative change, hence it's all just a "nerf hisec" mantra for them. You know the only time I've ever seen this sentiment expressed is by whiny losers who couldn't actually hack it in null . Why on earth (or space) would we want more people in null? More people means more risk, more potential awoxers, more spies, more competition for rats and resources, it means more disruptions to our isk making activities. So, it would be fair to say you want them to get off your lawn? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Skex Relbore Space Exploitation Inc Get Off My Lawn 213	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:35:00 - [114] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Skex Relbore wrote: Katran Luftschreck wrote: Nullbears always whine how they want more players to come there, but at the end of the day all they really want is more serfs to make their e-peens feel bigger and more baby seals to club. So trying to get them to make any kind of positive change to nullsec is never going to happen. They are incapable of thinking in that way. They only understand negative change, hence it's all just a "nerf hisec" mantra for them. You know the only time I've ever seen this sentiment expressed is by whiny losers who couldn't actually hack it in null . Why on earth (or space) would we want more people in null? More people means more risk, more potential awoxers, more spies, more competition for rats and resources, it means more disruptions to our isk making activities. So, it would be fair to say you want them to get off your lawn? You darn tooting right sista ;-)
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 583	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:37:00 - [115] - Quote Skex Relbore wrote: Long rant about other people Rocks and glass houses. The only alliance to come out of the NC collapse with their SOV was Lawn.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Air The Unthinkables 2458	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:48:00 - [116] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: So the case was made for NRDS. People rushed in making the case for NBSI. case for NBSI was made and proven with a quick glimpse at a sov map I merely reminded people of that hth
Cameron Cahill Dissonance Corp Unclaimed. 188	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:50:00 - [117] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: So the case was made for NRDS. People rushed in making the case for NBSI. NRDS is a failure, say those who shoot anything that is not blue. So, how's that empty and boring nullsec working out for ya? Fine as everyone that actually lives in null knows its not empty.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6249	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:50:00 - [118] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: So the case was made for NRDS. People rushed in making the case for NBSI. NRDS is a failure, say those who shoot anything that is not blue. So, how's that empty and boring nullsec working out for ya? "Man nullsec would be so much better if you fought for space so everyone else could use it" ~a proud belligerent undesirable~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. ~~~~i am god~~~~
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3187	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:52:00 - [119] - Quote Andski wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: So the case was made for NRDS. People rushed in making the case for NBSI. NRDS is a failure, say those who shoot anything that is not blue. So, how's that empty and boring nullsec working out for ya? "Man nullsec would be so much better if you fought for space so everyone else could use it" All our ~~blues~~ maybe Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Felicity Love STARKRAFT 137	Posted - 2013.01.04 21:52:00 - [120] - Quote Since the game is basicallly a game of conflict, both political and economic, expecting one form of "government" or another to be the accepted "norm" is pure crackhead dreaming. Null is as Null does. Like it or don't, and the folks living there have to live with it, too. ...rinse, repeat... rinse, repeat...

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