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Sticky:Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 39 post(s)
Savira Terrant Valhollr 23	Posted - 2013.02.21 15:48:00 - [901] - Quote Malcanis wrote: You get the use of the ship before the change. Another one of those? Really? Even someone wanting to be on CSM? I do not care how much time I spent in a ship. The only thing that counts is how much time you spent/will spend on training for it before and after the patch. Period. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8.
Chi'Nane T'Kal Interminatus Aeterna Anima 44	Posted - 2013.02.21 16:52:00 - [902] - Quote Savira Terrant wrote: Malcanis wrote: You get the use of the ship before the change. Another one of those? Really? Even someone wanting to be on CSM? I do not care how much time I spent in a ship. The only thing that counts is how much time you spent/will spend on training for it before and after the patch. Period. Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer? Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell.
Savira Terrant Valhollr 23	Posted - 2013.02.21 17:57:00 - [903] - Quote Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer? Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell. Given that this is a computer game we are talking about here and that the value we paid for is not the licence for the ship, but being able to log in to use CCP's service and making decisions based on the rules of this service, we should get the chance to revise our decisions based on the new rules of their service. That is all there is to it and nothing more. Also I find it unhelpful to try and find a real-life comparison for computer game content. The fun with computer games is that there is a set of rules that do not comply exactly with the real world. I still do not see a reason, why a player should spend more time training on something that another player can accomplish in less time. So if CCP would like to change the time to reach a skill, they should change it for all of us. And I would also say so, if CCP were to prolong the training time of ships instead. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8.
Chi'Nane T'Kal Interminatus Aeterna Anima 44	Posted - 2013.02.21 20:29:00 - [904] - Quote Savira Terrant wrote: Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer? Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell. Given that this is a computer game we are talking about here [...] Indeed. So you're saying that while we have to accept that in RL costly investments can be worthless (via your interpretation, my 2 years of using my computer have no value, so the 800$ difference between buying it 2 years ago and someone buying it now are worthless) or prerequisites can be changed (yes, i would REALLY have liked to drive 125ccm motorbikes when i was 16, something teens may do today), it is completely unacceptable in something much less important than RL like a computer game? You seriously need to work on your priorities, mate.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 620	Posted - 2013.02.21 20:32:00 - [905] - Quote Savira Terrant wrote: Given that this is a computer game we are talking about here and that the value we paid for is not the licence for the ship, but being able to log in to use CCP's service and making decisions based on the rules of this service, we should get the chance to revise our decisions based on the new rules of their service. That is all there is to it and nothing more. This has been contrary to CCP's position for quite a while now. From their standpoint you make the choice to gain a capability and even if that capability is changed to no longer be applicable in some situations, so long as it remains and can be used you retain it. It's no different here that it is in the countless changes that have happened before.
Kaylee Rei Ascendant Brokerage Bureau Anonymous 2	Posted - 2013.02.21 20:41:00 - [906] - Quote Would it be possible to give an exact date or countdowns to the date of the change? I have one toon remaining that needs to juggle a remap early for it to be prepared. It would be nice to have a 45 day warning or somesuch, to get last minute training in. - KR
Savira Terrant Valhollr 23	Posted - 2013.02.21 20:59:00 - [907] - Quote u Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: Indeed. So you're saying that while we have to accept that in RL costly investments can be worthless (via your interpretation, my 2 years of using my computer have no value, so the 800$ difference between buying it 2 years ago and someone buying it now are worthless) or prerequisites can be changed (yes, i would REALLY have liked to drive 125ccm motorbikes when i was 16, something teens may do today), it is completely unacceptable in something much less important than RL like a computer game? You seriously need to work on your priorities, mate. Yes. That's my point. In real life we are forced to accept those things already and nothing can be done about it. A computer game should focus on the fun and fairness of it's most basic concepts in my view and thus give us a chance to revise our decisions based on outdated rules. I think that my priorities are sorted, thanks. Tyberius Franklin wrote: This has been contrary to CCP's position for quite a while now. From their standpoint you make the choice to gain a capability and even if that capability is changed to no longer be applicable in some situations, so long as it remains and can be used you retain it. It's no different here that it is in the countless changes that have happened before. Thank you for your input. What you say is indeed true. It seems I tend to think it is a difference as to what capability in this case means. While e.g. I can still fly a carrier, does not mean I was ever able to use a battleship (missing supportskills). While this is somewhat beside my point it still has to be considered to understand the following. I was referring to the difference of actual training time it took to reach a given usablility of e.g. a carrier before and after the changes. Before, we needed Battleship V additionally to the jump skills (you were free not to skill them of course, but every capital pilot in their right mind would skill them anyway) and after the change Battleship V will not be needed. As I mentioned above earlier, the joy to be able to use something already, has nothing to do with the training time invested into flying something, since between starting the game and be able to flying a carrier was always the same span of time. But CCP changes this span of time for future players without giving old players the chance to reevaluate their investment of additional time (Battleship 3 to 5 no longer needed). Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8.
Chi'Nane T'Kal Interminatus Aeterna Anima 44	Posted - 2013.02.21 21:02:00 - [908] - Quote Repetition does not make your position any better. You can stop beating the lasagna now.
Savira Terrant Valhollr 23	Posted - 2013.02.21 21:07:00 - [909] - Quote Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: Repetition does not make your position any better. You can stop beating the lasagna now. I like lasagna. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8.
Sergeant Acht Scultz School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 606	Posted - 2013.02.21 21:20:00 - [910] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Sentient Blade wrote: Chokes.. All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level). Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?). Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Savira Terrant Valhollr 23	Posted - 2013.02.21 21:24:00 - [911] - Quote Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Sentient Blade wrote: Chokes.. All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level). Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?). Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news No. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 620	Posted - 2013.02.21 21:57:00 - [912] - Quote Savira Terrant wrote: Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Sentient Blade wrote: Chokes.. All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level). Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?). Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news No. To elaborate: The command ship skill and racial BC V is what you need to fly command ships. The full prerequisites listed are what will be needed after the change to inject the skill which allows you to fly the ship. But, you have to train nothing because you already have the command ship skill injected. You will have nothing given to you by way of leadership skills because it isn't needed as you already have the command ship skill.
Tlat Ij Hedion University Amarr Empire 23	Posted - 2013.02.22 01:06:00 - [913] - Quote Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Sentient Blade wrote: Chokes.. All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown? Looks like it. Because the skill "command ships" is generic, not racial. But as other stuff has been removed, the total training time is about the same. So if I have all racial frigates+cruisers at 5 destroyers+BC's 5 all T2 at 4 including command ships at 4 I'll get all the command links at 4??? (actual command ship level). Little weird this specific case for me, can't really understand what I'm going to keep or what I will have to train on top (links?). Edit: I know I'm lazy but it's not flash news For the tenth time, the command ships skill does NOT need the link skills, it needs the basic leadership skills.
DeODokktor Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium 14	Posted - 2013.02.22 03:27:00 - [914] - Quote Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: Savira Terrant wrote: Malcanis wrote: You get the use of the ship before the change. Another one of those? Really? Even someone wanting to be on CSM? I do not care how much time I spent in a ship. The only thing that counts is how much time you spent/will spend on training for it before and after the patch. Period. Seriously now. Have you tried telling the same crap to the guy selling you your computer? Not sure where you're living in, but have you noticed the transition from national to EU wide driving licenses? Pretty much summer ship skill revamp in a nutshell. Uh... While I understand you confronting the emorage types over something that really will benefit them (train now and get a bonus SP boost on patch day/conversion day). I dont like your analogy. If the "guy selling me a computer" says. "You can turn it on by pressing the on button" then I dont want to find out two weeks later that it changes itself and requires me to buy a dongle to enable it to power on. And the "National" to "EU" driving licenses are still new, and with a few exceptions, they offer no restrictions or alterations to the national driving test. So that analogy would be more like CCP saying "We are giving your ship a new skin and framework!" and someone getting all upset about it. To the person complaining. Cruiser 3, BC at whatever level it is, You get racial BC at whatever BC level is at. What is the issue?
Thalkargro Ndron Valyrian Stark 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 08:26:00 - [915] - Quote So, as one of the "new players", I've got a couple of things to ask. Before I ask, just let me say, I realize a lot of you are YEARS invested in this game and your elitist mentality toward the game is somewhat warranted. However, unless you want the game to fade, you need 'noobs' like me. So, please respond/flame/get ********, but understand that I'm only looking for insight into how these changes affect me as a new player. 1. I made what most would consider a "boring" choice, and chose to remap Int/Mem for the first months of my 'life'. This change is going to make me use one of my free remaps sooner in order to get these skills to appropriate levels before the mystical release date, which is "many months" away. Will CCP provide a release date with sufficient time to begin this training, or do I need to have it underway long before the release date is announced to fully capitalize on the skills? (If I remap to Perc/Will, I need 47.5 days to get to Destroyer V/BC V) 2. These changes affect ships skills and not support skills, so other than ensuring I'm not locked in to a single race, what's the greatest benefit to getting Destroyer to 5 and Battlecruiser to 5 before the expansion? I will not be able to fit them properly for months after the patch. 3. Tiericide is a great concept, and I hope it works. It seems as though there are unmatched strengths and weaknesses throughout the hulls, even within a single race. This is not an effort for this expansion, correct? It was mentioned several times, but no details anywhere about ship modifications/rebalancing except for industrials (at least that I understood in my limited knowledge of the game). Since this is the first expansion I will go through, does my current inventory of ships get modified to the new standard upon release, or do I have obsolete equipment once the software drops (e.g. legacy Tristan in inventory new Tristan on the market)? Thanks
Chi'Nane T'Kal Interminatus Aeterna Anima 44	Posted - 2013.02.22 09:11:00 - [916] - Quote Thalkargro Ndron wrote: 1. I made what most would consider a "boring" choice, and chose to remap Int/Mem for the first months of my 'life'. This change is going to make me use one of my free remaps sooner in order to get these skills to appropriate levels before the mystical release date, which is "many months" away. Will CCP provide a release date with sufficient time to begin this training, or do I need to have it underway long before the release date is announced to fully capitalize on the skills? (If I remap to Perc/Will, I need 47.5 days to get to Destroyer V/BC V) I asked the same and was told there is no definite answer yet. People are speculating it may be as early as start of may and as late as mid june. Unless someone from CCP grows the balls to say 'summer patch will definitely be AFTER date x' we're pretty much screwed regarding remap decisions. Quote: 2. These changes affect ships skills and not support skills, so other than ensuring I'm not locked in to a single race, what's the greatest benefit to getting Destroyer to 5 and Battlecruiser to 5 before the expansion? I will not be able to fit them properly for months after the patch. There's no meta benefit. If you skill the hulls, you will be able to fly the hulls with full bonuses. As long as you have the very basics covered from your Int/Mem phase (cap skills and t2 tanking mods mostly), sitting in a fully bonused BC a few weeks prematurely is not a terrible decision though. If your goal is flying battleships exclusively you may wish to consider skipping the remap though or skilling BC III with your current mapping (the 4 multiplier would still make that a worthwhile investment, despite the cringe of skilling unbonused :)). Quote:* 3. Tiericide is a great concept, and I hope it works. It seems as though there are unmatched strengths and weaknesses throughout the hulls, even within a single race. This is not an effort for this expansion, correct? It was mentioned several times, but no details anywhere about ship modifications/rebalancing except for industrials (at least that I understood in my limited knowledge of the game). Since this is the first expansion I will go through, does my current inventory of ships get modified to the new standard upon release, or do I have obsolete equipment once the software drops (e.g. legacy Tristan in inventory new Tristan on the market)? Tiericide is pretty much complete for T1 frigs, destroyers, cruisers and battlecruisers (with the exception of the former Tier3 BC I think). There is no vintaging of ships, the modification of Tristans in the frigate tiericide simply changed all existing models to the new ship. Same with destroyers, where i suddenly found a deactivated armor rep on my Coercer, because the low slot containing it was removed (thankfully btw, that thing could really use the 2nd mid).
Greystorm Darkblade Valar.Morgulis 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 11:43:00 - [917] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Summer is Coming Valar Morghulis
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 155	Posted - 2013.02.23 01:42:00 - [918] - Quote You can always... Gasp Train without remapping. In the grand scheme of things BC 5 isn't going to be 'that' much slower if you aren't remapped, and changing your remap early is probably going to cost you more. So yea, train it now without remap, be safe? Given they first started talking about this skill change OVER A YEAR AGO! It's your own fault at this point. Information has been out there for a long time, and if you are 'new' then it's still your fault for remapping and not researching a little, considering how full the forums have been on discussions, and how many people would have told you if you had asked.
Thalkargro Ndron Valyrian Stark 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 07:13:00 - [919] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can always... Gasp Train without remapping. In the grand scheme of things BC 5 isn't going to be 'that' much slower if you aren't remapped, and changing your remap early is probably going to cost you more. So yea, train it now without remap, be safe? 22 days different without remapping. That's significant to someone who's been playing for 30 days. That only seems insignificant when you can already fly decent ships. While I could train them unmapped, I could also change them in time, assuming CCP would be willing to give a 45+ release date announcement. Nevyn Auscent wrote: Given they first started talking about this skill change OVER A YEAR AGO! It's your own fault at this point. Information has been out there for a long time, and if you are 'new' then it's still your fault for remapping and not researching a little, considering how full the forums have been on discussions, and how many people would have told you if you had asked. Since when do new players know about forums and all of the detritus of a game before they ever play it? When I started playing I was, like most new players, just testing out the game to see if it's worth my time. I'd say that phase is ongoing and my three month purchase of game time is just an extended trial. CCP wants both of our business, your arrogant, elitist attitude and my learning and new excitement about the game. Honestly, remap or not, people and comments like yours are the only detractors from the game.
Chi'Nane T'Kal Interminatus Aeterna Anima 46	Posted - 2013.02.23 10:53:00 - [920] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Given they first started talking about this skill change OVER A YEAR AGO! Without a definite date that information is and has been rather useless. Sometimes it's even harmful, as you can see from the poor guy who remapped all his Alts to react (a bit panicky IMO) and is now a bit annoyed as he could easily have waited until his regular remaps were back. When i remapped my main, i was not aware of the change - like Thalkargo wrote, when you're new you're reading TONS of things about eve (at least I did anyway), mostly guides and forum discussions about things that are unclear to you, though. Probably not Dev blogs and even if, certainly not OLDER dev blogs that don't pertain to a problem you're researching. At the time i became aware of the change via a new devblog it was still clear that it was a long-term announcement and details would follow. At that time i had planned a remap to per/wil at some point anyway, so it wasn't a big deal for me, but then i had to take a 4 month break due to RL intervening. When I returned i found my tank+DPS combo rather useless due to the AI change and reacted by burning a remap on my DPS alt for spider skills, so i can run missions decently again in about 2-3 months. Now my main's regular remap will be around in about 5 weeks (i'm at int/mem right now), which SHOULD be enough to cover for BC V (in early may) as long as CCP doesn't rush things (which is basically all i want to get confirmed by CCP, that they won't rush their summer update), so it doesn't really make sense not to round out my few remaining int skills for this mapping phase, burn a remap and map to a attribute set that i will most likely use for at least a year anyway. Alt situation is similar, remap coming up a few days later, but BC IV already skilled, so pretty similar end date.

Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 16:41:00 - [921] - Quote This has probably been answered previously but, if I have a Nyx sitter, sitting in a Nyx who has, say, jump fuel conservation 1... what happens on patch day? Guessing I can log him in but once he ejects from the ship, he can't get back in until he trains fuel4/cal3 etc. ?
Tilio Janau Concordiat Spaceship Samurai 1	Posted - 2013.02.23 17:02:00 - [922] - Quote The changes looks good to me my only question is like the player above how are the skills gonna be sorted for players that can currently fly a ship/sit in a ship that no longer meet the requirements after the update. will it be a case of if you can fly it today you can still fly it tomorrow i.e getting some skills for free or will it be a case of having to retrain the new skills first?
Chi'Nane T'Kal Interminatus Aeterna Anima 46	Posted - 2013.02.23 17:10:00 - [923] - Quote Tilio Janau wrote: The changes looks good to me my only question is like the player above how are the skills gonna be sorted for players that can currently fly a ship/sit in a ship that no longer meet the requirements after the update. will it be a case of if you can fly it today you can still fly it tomorrow i.e getting some skills for free or will it be a case of having to retrain the new skills first? The question has been answered...extensively...multiple times. And you should really look up the meaning of 'i.e.', i.e. you have no clue what it means.
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 17:27:00 - [924] - Quote Sorry for not spending my day reading through all 900 posts. Maybe making the DevBlog a bit clearer on these issues would have saved some questions.
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 1182	Posted - 2013.02.23 19:42:00 - [925] - Quote Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy wrote: Sorry for not spending my day reading through all 900 posts. Maybe making the DevBlog a bit clearer on these issues would have saved some questions. How about reading just the dev posts then? You know you can click the blue bar on a dev post to be taken to the next one, right? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract.
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 20:37:00 - [926] - Quote Steve Ronuken wrote: How about reading just the dev posts then? You know you can click the blue bar on a dev post to be taken to the next one, right? I did not, ty. However... I might be dense but I still don't get how this works. It has been stated multiple times that if you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after the patch. CCP will ADD new prerequisites to the carriers and supercarriers, namely: (" - Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite - Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)". So a character with jump drive operation 1 and the jump fuel conservation skill uninjected can currently fly, say, an archon. How is it possible for him to fly it after? The only sp they are giving away are for the destroyer and BC skills. To be honest, i don't rly care as both my cap toons have cal5 and fuel 4/5... just curious about the mechanics of it all.
Bill-Nye the Cyno-Guy Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 20:45:00 - [927] - Quote CCP RubberBAND wrote: Marsaac wrote: Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me. You will still be able to fly it. The top skill in the tree is the only one that actually determines your ability to fly a ship. The Fenrir before and after will require: Primary: Advanced Spaceship Command Level I Secondary: Minmatar Freighter Level I So you can fly it even though you do not have Advanced Spaceship Command at Level V. Ok lol, nvmd. Missed this on my first read-through :P
Max Brutix Amarrian Special Forces Angel Causalities Demolition Crew 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 22:52:00 - [928] - Quote Skill changes are potentially good, however I am questioning what is the real reason for the reduction of the training time for most ships? If the reason is to help new players getting into ships quicker, that is good. If the reason is helping lowering inflation and eventually deflate ship prices, that is good. If the reason is to increase the sales of PLEX, that is bad. I am a bit suspicious on this last item because new players will not have the isk for a battleship. What is the point of accelerating access to larger and unaffordable ships? I have to question if mr. -- person in charge -- is thinking clearly or if there is an agenda not favourable to eve players behind this. Any personal attack will be responded in kind.
Max Brutix Amarrian Special Forces Angel Causalities Demolition Crew 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:03:00 - [929] - Quote I have a question... After the change it is stated that if I could fly a ship I will still be able to fly it... Now this is the scenario post change: the ship I am flying requires additional skills. I can still fly it and all is good. I get podded. What happens now? Will the new clone be able to fly the same ship or will it require to train the missing skills? It might seem a stupid question but unless I get a response I am not totally comfortable.
Savira Terrant Valhollr 23	Posted - 2013.02.24 08:02:00 - [930] - Quote Max Brutix wrote: I have a question... After the change it is stated that if I could fly a ship I will still be able to fly it... Now this is the scenario post change: the ship I am flying requires additional skills. I can still fly it and all is good. I get podded. What happens now? Will the new clone be able to fly the same ship or will it require to train the missing skills? It might seem a stupid question but unless I get a response I am not totally comfortable. This was answeared by a Dev in this thread already, please go to the first post and click on the blue arrows to reach the next Dev answears. If you still have questions after reading all of them carefully, please come back here. Do not vote Malcanis for CSM 8.



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