That's the new Amarr racial theme, they've given the armor thing to gallente with the the 8th slot and now a third of Amarr ships are missile, now the new theme is can't fit our own weapons anymore without PG mods and cap rechargers.

This is actually the thing I'm personally most unsatisfied with. Part of my goals through the rebalance was to create more slot variation overall in battleships, and one of the best previous examples of this was the 8/3/8 Geddon. We had some versions of the Apoc with 8 lows, but in the end this layout seemed to fit best with the bonuses we wanted to go with. I'm convinced that the current lineup looks the healthiest of all the options we considered, and I expect the Navy BS to fill some of the gaps that still exist.

Well and I can certainly see a few.

Punisher > Maller > Abaddon - ok

Executioner > Omen > Apocalypse

sorry what?

Omen:
10% Medium Energy Turret cap use
5% to Medium Energy Turret Rate of Fire
Apoc:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret optimal range
+7.5% Large Energy Turret tracking speed

It works what again now ? How is this consistent?

Crucifier/Tormentor > Arbitrator > Armageddon

Again, sorry what?
First of all. Tormentor, realy? Why?

And here we go:
Crucifier:
5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness
5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range
and it has 45 m^3 drone capacity and that is massive for a frig.

Arbitrator:
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield

And now we have GeDomi.
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy

and it is "attack" battleship not a "disruption" battleship

Where are you seeing consistency here?

So GedDomi is a new "disruption" battleship wannabe and probably needs a new hull.
And amarr "attack" ship lineup needs it old Armageddon back, without this energy neuting shenanigans.

As another pilot said, the balance of 'no cap for you' was due to how very overpowered lasers were back in the day. No ammo, extreme damage capabilities, and could fire as long as you had cap.

This mindset fell to the way-side when the nerfed lasers originally years ago. Then they added cap boosters since our penalty was now too high. It's just the way it's thought to be for Amarr. And now with overheating and crystals, we go through ammo too.

I've been left wondering ... Why is it still so important that Amarr can't keep their cap up running full mods?

For those of you still concerned about the cap issues that Amarr will now face with both of its turret based options: we hear you. We are really caught here because a significant number of players find the cap bonus less exciting than a bonus like tracking. That said, its a really important bonus because of what it allows laser ships to do. We've been talking with the CSM, watching this thread, and doing experimenting of our own with the new ships internally to try and figure out how much of a problem it is. So far, we remain convinced that you will enjoy the Apoc more, on average, without the cap bonus.

Lasers aren't advertised as a high-tracking weapon, and nor should they be.

There is an easy fix to this that many have proposed on this thread - Give the 8th low to the Abaddon.

Take 2 turrets out. Make it 6 highs (and 6 turrets) and a damage bonus equal to the %5 laser damage per level when @ Amarr BS level 5 (10% or something?). Then give it an 8th low.

This will give you the slot variation you're looking for that you're unsatisfied with AND help relieve the cap issues for the Abaddon by having it have less turrets to fire.

Why can't you do this? Please explain. It helps cap issues, makes slot variations among the Amarr BSs AND FITS as an Amarr laser/armor brick boat. Many of us are just so confused why Gallente is getting an 8th low when not a SINGLE Amarr BS does.

I wish you'd just adjust lasers to be what you advertised--that is, the weapons themselves have innate bonuses to damage/tracking/etc. that makes them good on their own, and the cap bonus on the ship makes it easier for Amarr pilots to use them.

"Selling" one thing one day (i.e. "Lasers are good on their own with innate bonuses and we like the cap usage bonus") to a completely different stance the next day ("We think you'd like this bonus instead of cap usage, but nevermind about how they'll cost a inordinate amount of cap more...") is wrong. You guys (you and Fozzie) need to get your stuff together and stay on message, or, you know, you can deliver on what was advertised in the first place.

And to people who say logistics its too strong compared to local tank - ofc it is strong, becouse you have dedicated ships repping other ships, not just 1-2 local reppers. Thats the whole idea of logistics, isnt it?

Well its more of a case taht battleships were almost not used at all for PVP outside huge fleet fights. And I think we neede dsome work to change THAT.. more than finding new strange sub roles. Grnated the geddon will find its usage in low scale PVP because its very powerful But a lot of the other battleships cannot hope to get used more.

...Despite the fact that clearly there are people who were happy with the Amarr battleships in their former state, overall there was a significant gap in use between apoc/geddon and most other battleships (the only BS used less was the hyperion)....

Despite answers (finally) from CCP Rise im still not impressed. gallente with 8 slots and amarr with 7 becouse its "healthiest" ? And unless im mistaken CCP Rise said they have already" looked at changes", and not they ' going to look further at changes"

I dont mind changing Armageddon into something different personally - go for it CCP, something different is cool.

Im totally against not changing abadon for better, and I totally hate idea of nerfing it "becouse its too powerfull" and also hate not having 8 lows on any amarr battleship, when gallente has, becouse they cry a lot.

And to people who say logistics its too strong compared to local tank - ofc it is strong, becouse you have dedicated ships repping other ships, not just 1-2 local reppers. Thats the whole idea of logistics, isnt it?

He was comparing BS use, not BS use to other ship classes.

I'd still like it if the option were explored to make ship bonuses either repair amount or raw armor/shield amount (like the Augoror)... reserving resistance bonuses for T2 boats. I think this would be much easier to balance over all.

CCP Rise - can you stop relying so much on the much vaunted "metrics" for ship balancing? By claiming of their accuracy, you are claiming the impossible. Data is only accurate at point of capture, after which regardless of how often it is looked at, it starts becoming more and more inaccurate - especially in a game like EVE.

And please pray tell, how many players here have actually said they like the changes wholehartedly? I have been checking this thread daily, and I have seen very few accept the changes as are, and a few that have gone "I like the changes you've made, however XXX needs to be altered"

Using the voice of the silent majority as an indicator of acceptance is dangerous - I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but I am absolutely and utterly PETRIFIED at what is happening to EVE's most iconic race.


I am utterly utterly hoping that you re-consider the changes you are wishing to implement on the Armageddon. They are completely at odds with the race as a whole, inconsiderate to the background of the ship itsself, and utterly ruining two other ships.

I admit I am no game developer, and that you don't have it easy, especially with the Odyssey deadline looming somewhat close - but even I can see the Armageddon, released now, with its stats as is, would be MASSIVELY overpowering, confusing to the pilots flying them, and generally getting underused in PvE as it would have no physical use in it.

8 low Abaddon? While keeping the resistance bonus? You are insane. Some estimates where this stats would put an Abba with Slaves and Damnation?

Why stuff more ships into that atrocious pigeon hole called "buffer for the WIN!"? Once you slap that bonus on it you know that it will never be undocked without 3+ 1600s and a cyno for the alt triage .. hate the raw armour bonus so much that I think said hate surpases even that of Gallente's towards the rep bonus.

Abaddon has no noticeable cap issues currently and with no changes to that aspect, it won't in the future. With no drones to speak of and that lovely low tracking it will never be a solo boat --> perfect for its intended use = gangs/fleets/jack-hammer.
PS: Besides, it loses tank not cap by the resist reduction so illogical to even consider using it as reason for cap increase .. would apply if it was regularly fielded with active tank but ...

Oh I'll be coming near them pretty soon alright =)

I think you'll be happy though.

Hey again Amarr fans!

After watching the thread, and having a nice talk with you guys this morning, the balance team here in Reykjavik devoted some time to carefully considering this issue of cap use for Amarr battleships. The resulting change is detailed in a post that should be stickied by now. Please go check it out!

Look forward to hearing your feedback