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Deimos: The Ugly Duckling

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KilROCK	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:41:00 - [61] Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 01/12/2005 19:24:24 So here it goes. Fittings of HAC. Oh my god , you have so much time on your hands to do these graphics LOL
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:51:00 - [62] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 01/12/2005 19:50:55 Originally by: Dash Ripcock Interesting, and I notice that despite struggling for powergrid, the Deimos still has another high-slot to fill in the majority of those setups. Yep, that's what you said all along Originally by: Dash Ripcock Regarding the Muninn (which crops up rather a lot), don't people fit shield boosters and extenders on those - using up CPU rather than powergrid? I have no idea, could be that devs think that you can shield tank all right with 3 mids so maybe... Originally by: KilROCK Oh my god , you have so much time on your hands to do these graphics LOL Most graphs I post take at most 1 minute to create and host, i just type the ship type and weapons types, sig radius and transversal velocity and it's all magic. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range.
Amos Sommers	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:58:00 - [63] In respone to the original post: Not mentioning the fact that because of the mwd signature radius you get insta-wtf-pwnt-bbq-zapped by anything thats same size or bigger. This goes for Megathron aswel.. LOL U IS PWNED
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.12.01 20:00:00 - [64] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Dash Ripcock Regarding the Muninn (which crops up rather a lot), don't people fit shield boosters and extenders on those - using up CPU rather than powergrid? I have no idea, could be that devs think that you can shield tank all right with 3 mids so maybe... Slight derailment - I was under the impression people fit lots of gank, a slight shield tank and big guns on a Muninn, but then I don't fly one. As for the topic at hand, thank you for backing it up with cold hard numbers! The Firing Range
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.01 20:00:00 - [65] Originally by: Amos Sommers In respone to the original post: Not mentioning the fact that because of the mwd signature radius you get insta-wtf-pwnt-bbq-zapped by anything thats same size or bigger. This goes for Megathron aswel.. Yp, another great attribute of deimos... Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
Meridius	Posted - 2005.12.01 20:26:00 - [66] Originally by: LUKEC I think that zealot with 7HSII and 4x heavy pulsesII comes very close to deimos full of ions and dmg mods. That doesn't exist in RMR. ________________________________________________________
Marko Debreault	Posted - 2005.12.01 20:29:00 - [67] I will not fly the deimos. For the isk it is not versatile enough and it is far too vulnerable.
Ugluuk	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:09:00 - [68] Deimos pwn.. It`s all in the fitting..If you dont go with the obvious fitting you can do miracles.. I dont think it`s a bad ship.. http://bydi.digilo.net/forum/ Edited, Ugluuk rox my boxxor -Dyvim
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Ugluuk Deimos pwn.. It`s all in the fitting..If you dont go with the obvious fitting you can do miracles.. I dont think it`s a bad ship.. That shouldn't happen. The description says it is the ultimate cruiser blaster boat. As a result, it should at least be able to mount its mid-tier blasters without having to compromise its setup or lose out on a slot. Also, considering it 'shares tactical elements with smaller vessels' surely that means that she's fast and agile, ducking under enemy guns to deliver a killer blow? Instead she's one of the slowest Heavy Assaults there is, further crippled by the signature penalty. I can live the penalty, but everything else just makes her take up shelf space. The Firing Range
ThunderGodThor	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:23:00 - [70] Originally by: Ugluuk Deimos pwn.. It`s all in the fitting..If you dont go with the obvious fitting you can do miracles.. I dont think it`s a bad ship.. ???? I guess you dont fly the diemos at all do you. How would you recomend fitting it rails??? YOu cant fit 250's with out a rcu or 3 depending on skills. Use 200's??? they need more pg than ions so those out of the question. Guess that leaves the electrons and dual 150's. Both have the shortest range and damage for hybrids just so it is possible to fit a possible tank. Wish i had what you are smoking.
ThunderGodThor	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:31:00 - [71] Originally by: Dash Ripcock Edited by: Dash Ripcock on 01/12/2005 16:16:23 Here are some numbers concerning the difference in ship fittings (PG/CPU): Zealot/Omen: 360/65 Sacrilege/Maller: 100/40 Deimos/Thorax: 40/30 Ishtar/Vexor: 25/15 Muninn/Rupture: 90/30 Vagabond/Stabber: 155/95 Eagle/Moa: 95/78 Cerberus/Caracal: 105/90 By simply looking at those simple numbers, we can see that the Deimos (Ishtar aside) benefits the least fitting-wise from all of the other HACs. Great, we get an extra 40 powergrid and 30 CPU units to fill a high-slot and a low-slot. No wonder you see countless pilots struggling to fit the mid-range gun (Ions) onto their Tech 2 ship. With regards to the Ishtar, her lack of fitting is made up for with an absolutely enormous drone bay, as well as being an ECM/Tank platform rather than a fist fighter. The Deimos has the same drone bay as the Thorax in this respect. Considering that the Megathron, a Tech 1 ship, can fit a rack of Ion IIs without a hiccup whereby the Deimos a Tech 2 ship can't without power upgrades speaks for itself. This is supposed to be the deadliest cruiser under 5Km - let's make her that way. This has obviously struck a chord with disgruntled Deimos pilots - you have Eyeshadow and Gariuys, both established Deimos veterans agreeing that she needs more powercore, CPU and agility. I said that all in the MK2 work bout the rax and Deimos as soon as i saw it. Posted it in 10 or so posts. Before on the early idea for the rax it was 20 or 15 pg. With RMR the rax will be flown by all us diemos pilots as you can fit it all out with what you use on a diemos now.
Gary Goat	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:40:00 - [72] Edited by: Gary Goat on 01/12/2005 23:41:23 I agree totally. I have to sacrifice my utility hi slot to fit ions (which are MID range guns), a mwd and a tank. Oh and by tank i really mean 1 rep and 1 50% hardner so its not really much of a tank. Somebody mentioned that they cant fit a plate on there zealot after guns? I take it your using the HI end guns? WITH ADVANCED WEAPONS UPGRADES 4 THE DEIMOS CANNOT FIT 5x NEUTRONS! Thats right with all other slots empty it cant fit 5 neutrons. Now i understand you need to sacrifice for that extra damage but a pg mod just to fit the damn guns is a bit excessive.
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:46:00 - [73] It's quite funny when someone talks about the deimos, someone will say 'oh you have the ishtar, you can't have two UBER hac in 1 race'. Most are Zealot pilots whining about their sac, When in reality when RMR hits, they'll have the curse, which does the same damage with 5 heavy drones as a Ishtar but it can suck you freaking dry at 37.5km. So yea. Fix the deimos a bit
Meridius	Posted - 2005.12.02 00:09:00 - [74] Originally by: KilROCK It's quite funny when someone talks about the deimos, someone will say 'oh you have the ishtar, you can't have two UBER hac in 1 race'. Most are Zealot pilots whining about their sac, When in reality when RMR hits, they'll have the curse, which does the same damage with 5 heavy drones as a Ishtar but it can suck you freaking dry at 37.5km. So yea. Fix the deimos a bit Curse isn't a HAC. It has lower resists, less tanking ability, lower hp, is heavier, slower and has a fraction of the Ishtar's drone bay. Like with all Amarr ships, everyone seems to point at the good stuff first while completely ignoring the rest The Ishtar and Deimos in there current condition are the best pair of HAC's hands down. In RMR they will be even better with the drone rehaul. ________________________________________________________
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.12.02 00:14:00 - [75] I never compared their tank, i said: Ability to suck dry better than the ishtar Same damage output with 5 heavy drones
Arti K	Posted - 2005.12.02 00:22:00 - [76] Edited by: Arti K on 02/12/2005 00:22:53 Can we go back to march and april when people were complaining that the deimos was overpowered and cost twice as much as the ishtar, and the ishtar was useless? Those were funny months
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.12.02 01:25:00 - [77] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: KilROCK It's quite funny when someone talks about the deimos, someone will say 'oh you have the ishtar, you can't have two UBER hac in 1 race'. Most are Zealot pilots whining about their sac, When in reality when RMR hits, they'll have the curse, which does the same damage with 5 heavy drones as a Ishtar but it can suck you freaking dry at 37.5km. So yea. Fix the deimos a bit Curse isn't a HAC. It has lower resists, less tanking ability, lower hp, is heavier, slower and has a fraction of the Ishtar's drone bay. Like with all Amarr ships, everyone seems to point at the good stuff first while completely ignoring the rest The Ishtar and Deimos in there current condition are the best pair of HAC's hands down. In RMR they will be even better with the drone rehaul. I'd say the Minmatar are good contenders, and after the RMR patch who knows - maybe the Caldari twosome will prove popular. However, arguing against balancing a ship because æthe others are rubbishÆ doesn't hold water - especially since this statement is far from true with the changes coming in. Wave the flag; get the others seen to as well. I pumped my skillpoints into gunnery and drones, and I want to see them pay off in the Deimos. That's my interest. The Amarr are yours. The Firing Range
Ugluuk	Posted - 2005.12.02 03:43:00 - [78] Edited by: Ugluuk on 02/12/2005 03:44:13 Originally by: ThunderGodThor Originally by: Ugluuk Deimos pwn.. It`s all in the fitting..If you dont go with the obvious fitting you can do miracles.. I dont think it`s a bad ship.. ???? I guess you dont fly the diemos at all do you. How would you recomend fitting it rails??? YOu cant fit 250's with out a rcu or 3 depending on skills. Use 200's??? they need more pg than ions so those out of the question. Guess that leaves the electrons and dual 150's. Both have the shortest range and damage for hybrids just so it is possible to fit a possible tank. Wish i had what you are smoking. I flew Deimos until i tried the Ishtar.. Where did i say 250 rails? Where did i say rails at all? I said something people wont expect when they meet you.. Your lack of imagination is the reason you think this ship sucks.. It would be pretty stupid of me to sit here and tell everyone what setup i run..But when i get a new one i will show my enemies instead.. http://bydi.digilo.net/forum/ Edited, Ugluuk rox my boxxor -Dyvim
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.02 03:48:00 - [79] Originally by: Arti K Edited by: Arti K on 02/12/2005 00:22:53 Can we go back to march and april when people were complaining that the deimos was overpowered and cost twice as much as the ishtar, and the ishtar was useless? Those were funny months qft funny thing is ishtar probably the exact same now as it was then - only the cookie cutter nos was revealed to the sheep... -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.12.02 09:41:00 - [80] Originally by: Ugluuk Edited by: Ugluuk on 02/12/2005 03:44:13 Originally by: ThunderGodThor Originally by: Ugluuk Deimos pwn.. It`s all in the fitting..If you dont go with the obvious fitting you can do miracles.. I dont think it`s a bad ship.. ???? I guess you dont fly the diemos at all do you. How would you recomend fitting it rails??? YOu cant fit 250's with out a rcu or 3 depending on skills. Use 200's??? they need more pg than ions so those out of the question. Guess that leaves the electrons and dual 150's. Both have the shortest range and damage for hybrids just so it is possible to fit a possible tank. Wish i had what you are smoking. I flew Deimos until i tried the Ishtar.. Where did i say 250 rails? Where did i say rails at all? I said something people wont expect when they meet you.. Your lack of imagination is the reason you think this ship sucks.. It would be pretty stupid of me to sit here and tell everyone what setup i run..But when i get a new one i will show my enemies instead.. You can't expect your 'holier than thou' attitude to cut it do you? Saying that your setup works when countless others are having issues with fitting the ship the way she should be fitted does not mean that this ship does not need balancing. Of course there is always room for innovation, but as it stands she is a blaster ship, meant to fit blasters, and the only way she can do that and retain a useable setup that doesn't neglect slots is by using the smallest class of blasters available - on a Tech 2 ship. It's got nothing to do with imagination; it's got everything to do with making a ship fulfil her basic requirements. CCP changed the Moa, and in turn changed the Eagle. Now they've changed the Thorax; surely the Deimos requires a re-address as a result? The numbers are there, it's obvious she doesn't have enough powergrid. You have established Deimos pilots posting in here saying that she needs to be looked at, and that theyÆve switched to something else as a result. Exactly what more do you need? The Firing Range
ThunderGodThor	Posted - 2005.12.02 09:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Ugluuk Edited by: Ugluuk on 02/12/2005 03:44:13 Originally by: ThunderGodThor Originally by: Ugluuk Deimos pwn.. It`s all in the fitting..If you dont go with the obvious fitting you can do miracles.. I dont think it`s a bad ship.. ???? I guess you dont fly the diemos at all do you. How would you recomend fitting it rails??? YOu cant fit 250's with out a rcu or 3 depending on skills. Use 200's??? they need more pg than ions so those out of the question. Guess that leaves the electrons and dual 150's. Both have the shortest range and damage for hybrids just so it is possible to fit a possible tank. Wish i had what you are smoking. I flew Deimos until i tried the Ishtar.. Where did i say 250 rails? Where did i say rails at all? I said something people wont expect when they meet you.. Your lack of imagination is the reason you think this ship sucks.. It would be pretty stupid of me to sit here and tell everyone what setup i run..But when i get a new one i will show my enemies instead.. So what are u saying use lasers or something on it??? Small hybrid??? Fill the lows with pdu or rcu??? YOu do know that its bouses are to med hybrid right? Any thing else is a waste. What is wrong with having the pg and cpu to use ions and say a med nos on the last slot. If you have a setup by all means enlighten this poor noob. Be a little more informative than "If you dont go with the obvious fitting you can do miracles".
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.12.02 09:56:00 - [82] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 02/12/2005 09:59:56 Originally by: Dash Ripcock Of course there is always room for innovation, but as it stands she is a blaster ship, meant to fit blasters, and the only way she can do that and retain a useable setup that doesn't neglect slots is by using the smallest class of blasters available - on a Tech 2 ship. At least, you can use ions and still have a semi-decent setup. Granted, the utility slot can't fit a medium nos without some ducttape, but there's really worse than that out there. I ain't saying that it's all right though. I suppose it's the same as damage controls and the like being useless for a really long time. Or, heavy neutron blasters out of sanity fitting requirements, or 800mm - 425mm autocannons total suckyness, or why the heck is it so damn hard to stick medium t2 artilleries on muninn (the only ship designed to fit them), or god damn why did the sacrilege need that much shields. Nobody understand out of which magic hat CCP pulled the funky numbers... yet the wizard said that it's right Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range.
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.12.02 10:18:00 - [83] The only way to get a semi decent setup with IONs is using loads of faction stuff, and a RCU. I just wanna be able to drop that RCU, keep my IONs and fit a DCU... And I sure as hell wouldn't mind some less mass, more agility, more speed too. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Liam Fremen	Posted - 2005.12.02 10:20:00 - [84] Well, i fly my deimos from a lot of time, both pvp and ratting, unlukly there is a big problem about Electrons blaster. The real difference from deimos and rax is thath diemos not only have more dmg output, but the 10% falloff is what make the REAL difference, remember thath with ions u can hit very often at 10km with HAC lvl4, with hac5 u would hit sometime more far, and this is DAMN good vs frigates, just beacause a tackler who want web you must come inside 10km, if u are fitted with electorn and him stay at 9.5 km u just sux, if u have ions and good gunnery skills he will find a nice surprise! The same is for everything, with ions ur range is less than 5km, with ions u begin hiting ur enemy at 10km, and this give another big advantage, if you are moving to a enemy, and he is able to web you and **** up ur trajectory or anything else and u end at 7km from him, webbed, if u have electrons u can just hope to waste all ur cap in mwd for reaching the foe, if u have ions u can start hitting him and than going near, is sure BETTER. Neutrons would be cool i think, the range would be more and the damage too, well u will lose a bit of tracking, but if u can hit at 15km well, u can waste a bit of it... And btw, i confirm a damn deimos fitting with ions is DAMN tight, without adv weapon upgrade u have trouble fitting a med t2 repper... and the CPU is damn tight too, very often u must fit named stuff for fitting mwd+web+scrambler.... I love t2 fitting on t2 ships, so i prefer having everything tech2, seems just more right, and repleaceable, ok with 200 millions worth modules u can do bettr, but wtf, is the cost of the ship + fitting.... Pls, increase at least grid and cpu.... the agility is bad, it is very damn heavy... with next patch, or we will be able to STRIKE fast on our target with VERY hight damage, or we will be deads.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.12.02 10:28:00 - [85] I get better performance from my Deimos when it's fitted with Flak Cannons (Dual 150mm) and one or two 200mm, than I do with any blaster setup. Over all, blasters need looking at, and generally I keep glancing towards autocannons. Not in terms of cap usage, falloff or anything like that - I glance in terms of the fortsight in fitting requirements, which are generally about half of the fitting requirements of blasters CPU-wise and slightly lower in powergrid (Gallente and Minmatar have very similar powergrid and CPU). CPU is where the shoe's tight for all blaster setups. As an illustration, the RMR change to Thorax makes my cruiser blaster setup Thorax change thus: instead of 10-20 powergrid free I'll have about 200 free, and still no CPU to fit anything. This is with Electron IIs. So. When are these forums going live in game?
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.12.02 11:20:00 - [86] Originally by: Ithildin I get better performance from my Deimos when it's fitted with Flak Cannons (Dual 150mm) and one or two 200mm, than I do with any blaster setup. Over all, blasters need looking at, and generally I keep glancing towards autocannons. Not in terms of cap usage, falloff or anything like that - I glance in terms of the fortsight in fitting requirements, which are generally about half of the fitting requirements of blasters CPU-wise and slightly lower in powergrid (Gallente and Minmatar have very similar powergrid and CPU). CPU is where the shoe's tight for all blaster setups. As an illustration, the RMR change to Thorax makes my cruiser blaster setup Thorax change thus: instead of 10-20 powergrid free I'll have about 200 free, and still no CPU to fit anything. This is with Electron IIs. It's the same old, same old. It was always the case with the Megathron, people complained and CCP made them far easier to fit. Now it's the same issue with the cruisers and Heavy Assaults - let's hope CCP will listen one more time. The Firing Range
Bracius	Posted - 2005.12.02 11:35:00 - [87] let's see... last time i used deimos in pvp was in july... after that, i rather have thorax. :) Cheaper and almost better, because price allows more Leeeeeeeeroy tactic :) I just contributed 0 to this topic :)
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.12.02 11:44:00 - [88] Boost the Zealot too.. it blows in sisi :/ I want another hi turret slot.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.12.02 11:48:00 - [89] For the Deimos, my suggestion is this Lower dmg of electrons and grid/cpu Lower dmg of ions and grid/cpu to level of current electrons Lower dmg grid/cpu of neutrons to that of current ions Give it a slight agility boost. Now you can get good dps while having plates
Gary Goat	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:40:00 - [90] What would that achieve hobgoblin? Everything would be exactly the same as now but you'd have more agility and no option to fit hi end guns cos they simply wouldnt exsist as the neutrons would be equivilent to other races mid range guns. Damage on medium blasters is fine at the moment, its just the insane fitting requirments for them.

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