This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you.

Hmm... do I understand that marauders ">> as in better >>" than pirate battleships but harder to skill into?

well, there are rarely any marauder in incursion fleet tho because faction / pirate bs-es are just alot better and new changes will not make marauders more wanted in incursions either.

They aren't useful for PVP with the altered change proposal.

Now you have an expensive BS hull that either has normal weapons ranges, t2 resists, and a generous amount of utility highs or you have a sitting duck (unremote reppable, unmoving) but long ranged ship. Now, they *might* be usable as the first but then you've forced players to forego the bastion mechanic altogether in order to use them effectively for pvp. And as the second they are really, really unimpressive- no mobility, no remote reps, and the lack of a significant bonus to local reps means these things are just going to die even with the ranges they can engage in while bastioned. There is realistically only so much positioning you can gain even with a mjd because you will be still for an entire minute where your enemies will most likely not be.

This makes the price point vs ship utility rather skewed to the point that you probably don't want to use them at all for pvp. The resist profile from t2 resists is only so useful when your engagement range is so limited, that you may as well use a t1 hull that can outrange them and effectively trade ship for ship against them. And being a near exclusively local rep tanker with range but no mobility just means you'll be eaten alive while in bastion.

With the first round changes they were indeed insane for pve, but also had high potential for small and medium gang pvp- obviously large scale pvp and local reps don't really go together. Now the only place they'll be all that useful for pvp will be in alliance tournament-like environments.

yeah. this is why i'm trying to get more people to say "this is bad", because i don't believe anyone could possibly think this bonus is any good.

but there's not much talk of it, which makes it seem like a minor issue.

i'd like everyone who doesn't like it to say so, to make it very clear how bad this bonus is

again the entire problem is the XLASB x2.

Can we just make ASB a 1 per ship fitting rule already. Oversized ASBx2 on any ship makes it broken, and AAR aren't even comparable in effectiveness due to the 1 per ship rules.

1) 5% cap bonus / lvl should just be baked into the hull give a dps bonus instead. This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you.

2.) Might have originally be to counter the 1 sec crystal ammo changes that lasers can do. But no they should have 4 real bonuses like the other three marauders not 3 and " you will like a side of cap bonus with your armor repper?".

This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but

1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?

2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?

And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now?

The 1 sec crystal ammo change is offset by the fact that lasers can only deal EM/Therm damage.

161 pages of "rubixcube" effect.

Soon Gäó we'll get another version closer to the real "plan" and the second part of this threadnaught will continue.

Keep the good stuff going, if it's cheap its good.

There are many ships that are screwed over by a bonus that should be rolled into the hull/mod or a bonus that can only be used in active tanking and not both active and passive for example. As we know this is in no way balance. But if I have to get over such bonuses, everyone else should also.


So tell me why hybrid weapons have a 5 sec ammo change when they only do Kin/Therm.

Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:

• Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.


• We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.


• Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.

I will change the OP to match the changes.

that's probably the best place to continue the marauder rebalance from.

it's clear that with the current proposal CCP have no idea what they want marauders to do.

There are many ships that are screwed over by a bonus that should be rolled into the hull/mod or a bonus that can only be used in active tanking and not both active and passive for example. As we know this is in no way balance. But if I have to get over such bonuses, everyone else should also.

Very short range

It's clear that all the players want to make marauders into their own personal solopwn boat. CCP needs to make these ships do into something more well defined and stop trying to make everyone happy with a ton of bonuses that are just a mishmash of legacy and new ideas shoved together. I would even say refund the skill points put into marauders with the update so people will stop whining about "I invested skill points and they're wasted."

Redefine the ship, don't try to please everyone, allow people to invest skillpoints training for it if the ship meets their needs. It really sounds like the easiest way when a ship needs to get redefined.

I still dream of mounting T3 subsystems on one of these things.

With the amount of people calling for a scripted bastion module I doubt your alone

It's clear that all the players want to make marauders into their own personal solopwn boat. CCP needs to make these ships do into something more well defined and stop trying to make everyone happy with a ton of bonuses that are just a mishmash of legacy and new ideas shoved together. I would even say refund the skill points put into marauders with the update so people will stop whining about "I invested skill points and they're wasted."

Redefine the ship, don't try to please everyone, allow people to invest skillpoints training for it if the ship meets their needs. It really sounds like the easiest way when a ship needs to get redefined.

the problem with the bastion module is that make you immobile and eazy to blap
so i don't understand why they want make their immobile , he was not really fast in fact without bastion XD

i just want to say , why they don't make it like a new line of black ops ships , the description are saying , sneak&attack beyond the ennemy line ...

Making marauders better can't cure L4 runners or the missions and it's clear that straightforward buffs won't make marauders worse for L4s (it might force L4 runners to rethink, refit and adapt, which seems to be a major issue) but it can expand their use to other areas, and possibly even encourage L4 runners to something else for a change.

As it's been said numerous times, any T1 ship can run L4s efficiently- they should not be used as a yardstick for high performance ships. I'm personally eyeing marauders in PVE context as the default option for C3/4s and L5s, as well as plexing. The rationale behind is this- if you can solo content more efficiently than T3s with the same price tag, it's worth the risk, and if you can solo content where a carrier is viable, it's certainly less risky to use a battleship.

Than why are pirate BSs with straight out PVP bonuses better mission runners for two out of four of the pirate ships.

Mauraders main advantage is ammo saving and a monster cargohold.

Boring.

Hmm... do I understand that marauders ">> as in better >>" than pirate battleships but harder to skill into?

well, there are rarely any marauder in incursion fleet tho because faction / pirate bs-es are just alot better and new changes will not make marauders more wanted in incursions either.

nice words aligned up one after another... tons of jibrish.

take kronos and vindi - put them next to eachother, compare bonuses/slots/numbers
if you make out that vindi is t1.5 compared to it then uhmm... good luck.

I dont care about your achievements and whatnot... and I asked because I hoped that you will at least be arsed enough to open attribute windows for different pirate bs and marauders - maybe you'd understand the point yourself. Nothing more.

this situation is not like "i have an opinion and I think that this is better" it's just facts.

but on the matter of proposed changes - your opinions are welcome and appreciated ofcourse.

yeah. this is why i'm trying to get more people to say "this is bad", because i don't believe anyone could possibly think this bonus is any good.

but there's not much talk of it, which makes it seem like a minor issue.

i'd like everyone who doesn't like it to say so, to make it very clear how bad this bonus is

Second it. Wrote that myself few times. But surprisingly Paladin seems to hold its own (only in PvE) even with two useless bonuses (cap and web). Still it should be changed to something more useful (hell, even -10% bonus on turrets cap use would work better though I hate that bonus altogether ).

I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Massive Post Alert: Will try to format better (want table format codes!)

I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried.

The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists.

My point was that most people will not drop an extra billion worth of faction/deadspace/officer modules onto the hull to reach those silly numbers for armor. Especially if you have to lock yourself in place for 60 seconds

The spreadsheet I put together to generate these numbers are showing some pretty interesting things. Even with the second version, you can get better overall survivability out of only a 3 slot SHIELD tank even on the ARMOR hulls. My point was that most people will not drop an extra billion worth of faction/deadspace/officer modules onto the hull to reach those silly numbers for armor. Especially if you have to lock yourself in place for 60 seconds.

Being able to tank godly amounts of damage for minutes at a time can be fun. However for practical use, your cap boosters will eventually run out and the marauder class simply doesn't have enough DPS to be a huge threat while taking said damage.

What I'm trying to show by including real numbers of practical fits is that the exchange of T2 resists out of bastion doesn't necessarily gain you much in the way of tanking potential over the TQ version. The gain in effective health is tiny now that the base shield/armor/hull has been reduced overall. The T2 resists are partially cancelled out by that reduction. For example, the Vargur has significant gains in EHP against EM and Thermal but nothing for KN or EX. That only improves them against lasers and some specific ammunition types.

Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried.

The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists.