I think a fair compromise is to have T2 Resists, and then have Bastion give a further 20% unstacked bonus.

This simply replicates what many T2 ships have already: A 4% per level resistance bonus. However, this 20% would apply to shields, armor and hull at once.

T2 stays in place for incursions, but the EHP and more omni buff stays in place for Level 4 missions. And without introducing any ridiculous tank EFT-stats. Well, no more ridiculous than we see on current ships, anyway. I do like the idea of this ship being the only one that can get >60% resists in hull though (my proposal would max out hull resists at 68%.)

EDIT: And put back my damned 37.5% Rep boost!

Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried.

The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists.

The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners.

I think a fair compromise is to have T2 Resists, and then have Bastion give a further 20% unstacked bonus.

This simply replicates what many T2 ships have already: A 4% per level resistance bonus. However, this 20% would apply to shields, armor and hull at once.

T2 stays in place for incursions, but the EHP and more omni buff stays in place for Level 4 missions. And without introducing any ridiculous tank EFT-stats. Well, no more ridiculous than we see on current ships, anyway. I do like the idea of this ship being the only one that can get >60% resists in hull though (my proposal would max out hull resists at 68%.)

EDIT: And put back my damned 37.5% Rep boost!

The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners.

The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners.

Do you find the T2 resists somehow bad for non-fleet whiners?

The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair).

The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair). I find going for T2 resists expands the viability of marauders a lot.

The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair). I find going for T2 resists expands the viability of marauders a lot.

Ships aren't rebalanced to be OP in niche situations.

I initially supported the version one re-balancing ideas, then I was disgusted by the version two revamp. After taking a step back I still think the overall change is positive and I may have been too quick to judge.

I'd like to start within the current paradigm of marauders. Currently the exists as a lvl 4 high sec missioning platform that mostly tailors to users who like to run a single account (some exceptions of course). They are also very solid misisoning ships and perhaps even people who have alts are drawn to them over faction battleships. They have a very limited function outside of this paradigm. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but they are not often used in PVP, they are not a current / past doctrine ship for any fleet op / alliance, they generally are not used within wormholes, and they are not typically used for exploration. There is a major exception for null/low sec players who may use them to run anoms/and possibly signatures. In short, they excel at solo/small gang "elite" PVE.

Enter the "mini-dread" of the future....

The revamped ships gain in damage projection and local tank. I'm still not sure how I would classify the changes to mobility. They should be able to move around grid relatively effectively, though in missions I have reservations about trips 30-50 k ( I know you can use a triangle pattern but how easy/effective that solution is is for me untested). They gain T2 resists. They TRANSFORM! (I like this feature even if it's a vanity).

The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).

I think overall the changes do exactly what CCP was aiming for. Buff the marauder class, while expanding it's potential into other areas of the game (mainly pvp/small gang ops). I think what they have proposed is quite effectively accomplishing this goal. I personally made the mistake of OMG LOSING +30% RESISTS SO THEY MUST SUCK NOW.... After a second look these still look good to me.

Exactly how I feel. Well said.

I feel like the kronos should keep its web bonuses ( maybe nerf a little....maybe ) and it should get the rep bonus back in place of the range. With these changes and the bastion module, my math was showing a paladin able to hit to like 130-135km with scorch...... 700ish dps at 135km?
More Powergrid/Cpu
Keep drone bays ( battleships without them are destroyed )
Replace the range bonus for the old rep bonus
Change the bastion module in some way to make it more useful then getting blapped by the first dreadnought or arty fleet that sees you, and in the current state it will dominate any small gang without logi.
Do not nerf speed, my nidhoggur is faster then half of those marauders.
Keep the sensor strength low ( smartbomb for ecm drones ) and the trade off is high dps, high tank for ability to be jammed when not in bastion ( there you just get lolblapped by the first arty fleet/dread )
The web bonus on the vargur and golem need to go..... those ships are just not designed for close range combat
Web bonus on paladin should be changed to be similar to that of the bhaalgorn ( keeping it in check with the race )

The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).

THESE STILL SUCK.

T2 resists = terrific. MJD = awesome.
Other than that, everything else is still a mixed bag of snakes.

But I am really not sure that T2 ressist means that I will get ressists of heavy assault ships :-) (who know what they mean by saying T2 resists). Can someone confirm me this?

If only EVE had enough bruteforce ships for fleet work...

The falloff bonus is more useful in more situations, especially PvE, than the web bonus and less over-powered.

Beyond that you don't provide a very good argument for most of your proposals beyond "this is what I want". Don't nerf speed? These are tanky battleships, there are already plenty of battleships out there slower than your Nidhoggur. Also not everyone fights Dreadnaughts and pretty much anything is susceptible to blapping/alpha no matter what. Balancing against this is not productive.

These are also not supposed to be top-tier DPS ships.

Overall it looks like what you're asking for is Battleship sized HACs with more drone-bay. How is that even remotely balanced?



Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed.

For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here.

It seems good changes and the bastion could be some help!!
but as i see at golem at least 7 mids means 5 left for tanking since the other 2 will be target paint and webber meaning 1 active booster !!! and whey removing the shield boosting bonus ?

why taking the drone bay you could only hit the bandwith!!

Oh well most ppl seems that they have told you so !!

Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed.

For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here.

I
I think overall the changes do exactly what CCP was aiming for. Buff the marauder class, while expanding it's potential into other areas of the game (mainly pvp/small gang ops). I think what they have proposed is quite effectively accomplishing this goal. I personally made the mistake of OMG LOSING +30% RESISTS SO THEY MUST SUCK NOW.... After a second look these still look good to me.

Considering tanking is NOT the hard part on a LEvel 4...


If you guys want some buff that pleases GOOD l4 runners (not the noobish ones that think the more tank the better) And also please PVPers, add an extra damage bonus or an extra weapon.

And a single Shield Booster , 2 hardeners and 1 DC 2 is more than enough to tank ANY level 4, even if you are not doign them perfectly.

Why in hell people liek so much of OVERTANKING?

if I will get at least this :

Armor
Therm: 35%
Kin: 62.5%
Exp: 80%
EM: 50%

it will be pretty OK and I can live without bonus repair amount because it will be even few percent better in my setup than original state. (aproximaltely 10 - 13% based on set up)

But I am really not sure that T2 ressist means that I will get ressists of heavy assault ships :-) (who know what they mean by saying T2 resists). Can someone confirm me this?

The another thing is bonus to webifier (its really nice) but I have only 4 medium slots so it will be really hard to fit it on Paladin.
1 MJD, at least 1 ENG CAP (something) ..... 2 slots left and so many options :-).

I would rather prefer different bonus or at least get the "great bonus" to range of webifier too and not only velocity bonus.

I can easily fit it on Golem and have a afterburner / MJD / webifier / cap stable and better tank than paladin :-) / same amount of damage increasing modules...

But to be honest I think that main reason for this is that ACTIVE SHIELD TANK is much much much better than ACTIVE ARMOR TANK...

I really think that they should start with balancing here.

Thanks for the read. I would surmise that for missions you are correct, but what about PvP? Note that Caldari ships suck for EM resistance (typically 0-20), but with two T2 EM amplifiers it's easy to get this into the high 60's and low 70's without much effort. I imagine the same would be true for kinetic and thermal on the Vargur and Paladin. Let's also not forget that there are no shield strength implants, so it's quite easy to turn the Paladin into a flying brick with a set of Slave implants.

What I wouldn't mind seeing for Marauders is a set of short and long-range skills (instead of the fixed stasis web):

GÇó Paladin: Tracking, Damage
GÇó Golem: Target Painter, Missile Velocity
GÇó Kronos: Tracking, Optimal
GÇó Vargur: Stasis Web, Falloff

I still think that if Bastion is going to reduce your speed to zero it should also compensate for the immobility by increasing tracking speed and explosion radius, increasing rate of fire by 50% and doubling the load time.