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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12821
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:24:00 -
[241] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. Cost is only one factor, lock time, damage output, training time etc are others.
To say that cost is the reason people use destroyers for ganking is dishonest, other factors are in play. Other ships are also used, the Brutix is quite popular, so is the Tornado.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
IDGAD
Get in the van I have candy.
9
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Posted - 2013.08.31 14:24:00 -
[242] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost.
Anyone ganking in a cruiser is pretty stupid. Yes you can do it, but the only possible reason you would do it is if you refer to my previous post. It's only viable if you KNOW you can only gank with the extra DPS a cruiser gets over a dessie and are FORCED to use a cruiser because you don't have enough players to use dessies, but have more players than enough then would be required for tornados. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:25:00 -
[243] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost. Are you being serious lol? When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. You think that was accidental?
If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12821
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:27:00 -
[244] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.
This is forum gold.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3420
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:28:00 -
[245] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost. Are you being serious lol? When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. You think that was accidental? If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.
yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it?
smaller ships will always be more cost effective; ccp have stated several times that for a linear increase in performance you pay an exponential cost in price. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:29:00 -
[246] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. They still are. The problem is that people have come to believe that 5bn Gëá pi+¦ataGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jim Era
7491
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:29:00 -
[247] - Quote
I think its about time I put the WatGäó in here |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
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Posted - 2013.08.31 14:29:00 -
[248] - Quote
I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would?
If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. If cost to gank increases ganks decrease lol. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:30:00 -
[249] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.
This is forum gold. Lol you know what I mean. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:31:00 -
[250] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Thats balance based on cost. It isn't.
Oh god. |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12821
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:31:00 -
[251] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE. Maller GÇö Built cost: ~8M GåÆ Survivability: annoyingly high GåÆ Gankability: none, it's a trap! Crow GÇö Build cost: ~11M GåÆ Survivability: very low GåÆ Gankability: #&%Gé¼# sit still you bastard! Iteron V GÇö Build cost: ~2M GåÆ Survivability: mediocre GåÆ Gankability: high. R-¦: Not highGǪ
I'd like to see the build cost of a Procurer vs the build cost of a Mackinaw, the first is cheap as chips and damn hard to kill if fitted right, the second can be turned to scrap in highsec by <5 Catalysts regardless of tank
Build cost != Survivability as illustrated by both Tippia's examples and my own.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:33:00 -
[252] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. They still are. The problem is that people have come to believe that 5bn Gëá pi+¦ataGǪ No Tippia, you know as well as I do that when freighters were released the only feasible way of profitably ganking one was an expensive battleship fleet. Now you can do it with the second smallest least expensive low skill ship in the game. |
Dave Stark
3420
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:34:00 -
[253] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If cost to gank increases ganks decrease lol.
actually; the cost is irrelevant.
know what'd lower the amount of ganks? less people undocking with a cargo hold full of shiny stuff. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:34:00 -
[254] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor.
Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:35:00 -
[255] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it?
I know it's hard to wrap one's head around, but some developers balance based on two or even THREE factors. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:37:00 -
[256] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it).
[citation needed]
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. |
Dave Stark
3421
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:37:00 -
[257] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it? I know it's hard to wrap one's head around, but some developers balance based on two or even THREE factors.
and cost isn't one of them. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:42:00 -
[258] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor. Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it). In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking?
Would my second scenario increase ganking?
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:44:00 -
[259] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? Oh god. |
Dave Stark
3421
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:45:00 -
[260] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?
yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
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Posted - 2013.08.31 14:45:00 -
[261] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor. Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it). In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking? Would my second scenario increase ganking? Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?
Cost does not factor in to ship balance, which was the original point made. Twisting it's meaning does not make you correct. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:47:00 -
[262] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?
I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:48:00 -
[263] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking? Would my second scenario increase ganking? In either of your scenarios, the balance wouldn't change because the value of both the ships (on both sides) and the cargo would vary along with the build changes. So you'd still be talking about a 2x ISK ship being blown up by 0.5x ISK worth of ships, and we'd be talking about vastly different cargo compositions.
Quote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? I'm still saying that cost is not a factor in balance because balance is how ships fare against each other. What you're talking about is still a change in ROI, not balance.
S Byerley wrote:I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. No, it does not follow because just because cost isn't a balancing factor doesn't mean that all ships and items are meant to have the same availability and utility. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dave Stark
3425
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:49:00 -
[264] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.
cost not being a balancing factor doesn't mean everything should cost the game, however you're obviously trolling due the fact that it's all you have left after every terrible point of yours has been refuted, so i'm not sure why i'm pointing it out. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:49:00 -
[265] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.
Could you elaborate on why the game should be streamlined in such a way? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12828
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:49:00 -
[266] - Quote
The math is simple
If the potential value of your cargo > the value of the ships required to take your cargo from you, then you have a chance of exploding and losing your cargo.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Din Chao
355
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:52:00 -
[267] - Quote
ITT: Ganking is purely for the purpose of short-term, instant profit. There is no meta-game here. Move along. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:53:00 -
[268] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :) |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:55:00 -
[269] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor. Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it). In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking? Would my second scenario increase ganking? Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? Cost does not factor in to ship balance, which was the original point made. Twisting it's meaning does not make you correct. This thread is about ganking. What's being twisted here :) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12832
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:55:00 -
[270] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :) Profitability of a gank != balance.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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