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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.05 09:09:00 -
[271]
Originally by: DisC Leeroy From this thread about half say cruise and half say torps...
Which is better for level 4's? or is it really just a matter of personal preference?
Imho it is more a matter of your fitting. If you have a great (and expensive) tank with Gist XL booster, 2 Dread Invuls and low-grade crystal implants (That tanks most L4s easily, one additional specific hardener tanks ALL of them short of EA 5/5, might do even that but I throw in a boost amp as sa***uard there as finding out you can't tank it will cost you the mission since you usually cannot warp back in without getting wtfpwned by the stuff that came in while you were gone, and there are mainly BS enemies anyway), you can afford to devote two or even three midslots to target painters, which will make your Javelin torps pwn even the small ships some 40% faster than cruise missiles. If your tank requires 5 or even all 6 of your medslots, you are probably better off with high-skill T1 cruise missiles fired from T2 or faction launchers.
As for T1 torps, they are useful for some missions that have many BSes with low defender rates. Other than that, I found them mostly useless since defenders shoot them down a lot and their damage against smaller targets isn't up to par even with painters. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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jyrgen jonson
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Posted - 2006.10.05 21:13:00 -
[272]
I have now invested in a gist B type amplifier, do i really need to get a gist B type xl booster too? Because they are friggin expensive.
Any good faction boosters who doesnt cost 700m out there?
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.05 21:56:00 -
[273]
Originally by: jyrgen jonson I have now invested in a gist B type amplifier, do i really need to get a gist B type xl booster too? Because they are friggin expensive.
Any good faction boosters who doesnt cost 700m out there?
I am afraid you wasted a lot of money there. The Gist XL Booster is what makes a good tank. The boost amp is just the most overrated and overpriced module around which actually gives less benefit than a T2 invul field even with the first stacking penalty on it
Simple Math: Gist B boost amp = 37.5% additional HP to every shield boost, nothing else. T2 Invul with 2nd stacking penalty: 26.1% less damage taken, meaning effectively 100/0.739-100 = 35.32 additional HP to both the boosted, the passively recharged and the already existing HP. That effect is even more profound when facing rats doing less diverse damage so you can use hardeners. In essence: Hardeners >>> Boost amps.
--------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Matyae
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:23:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Matyae on 05/10/2006 23:24:34
Originally by: Leandro Salazar The boost amp is just the most overrated and overpriced module around which actually gives less benefit than a T2 invul field even with the first stacking penalty on it
Simple Math: Gist B boost amp = 37.5% additional HP to every shield boost, nothing else. T2 Invul with 2nd stacking penalty: 26.1% less damage taken, meaning effectively 100/0.739-100 = 35.32 additional HP to both the boosted, the passively recharged and the already existing HP. That effect is even more profound when facing rats doing less diverse damage so you can use hardeners. In essence: Hardeners >>> Boost amps.
But your math works only if passive resistance amplifiers are used together with the inv field, right ?
Because with rat specific active hardeners (let's say heavy kin/therm mission) :
Setup 1 : SB, SBA, 2x ballistic field II, 2x heat field II => 85.91% kin, 81.21% heat
Setup 2 : SB, Inv field II, 2x ballistic field II, 2x heat field II => 88.32% kin, 84.43% heat
Setup 2 takes 17.10% less damage from kin/therm, meaning 20.6% additional HP. Even with the passive regen I think 37.5% is better.
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Alexander Knott
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:36:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar As for T1 torps, they are useful for some missions that have many BSes with low defender rates. Other than that, I found them mostly useless since defenders shoot them down a lot and their damage against smaller targets isn't up to par even with painters.
This hasn't been my experience. With 1 painter fitted, my torps easily 2-volley all battlecruisers. Cruisers take 3, maybe 4 volleys at the high end, and 1-volley at the low end. I don't bother shooting frigates with my torps, instead if I have time I paint the frigates for my drones, otherwise they're on their own.
With all the talk about using t1 cruise missiles from t2 launchers, I tried cruise missiles out again. Battlecruisers would sometimes take 3 volleys because of defenders taking out just enough cruise missiles to leave them a sliver of life, even with 3 BCS fitted. Cruisers were not noticably faster than the torpedoes when you count in number of volleys. Of course, it was very nice to not have to bother with the painter or have the long wait for the missiles to impact. Still, all in all, I think I'm sticking with t1 torps from arbalest launchers for now.
I should disclaim and say that if I'm uncertain about my tank for a mission, I drop back to cruise launchers to fit the 6 slot + 2 NOS tank, but I haven't done that since the first time I did Silence the Informant. I also fit cruise launchers for drone missions because I haven't memorized which drone types are frigates and which are cruisers yet.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:39:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/10/2006 23:43:00 My example only works when there is none or the first stacking penalty applied. (Which is the case for most tanks I see). Of course when the stacking penalty gets too big (as in your example) the boost amp will win, but for most tanks it is just superfluous. (In the case of 61.75% hardeners they win even with the 2nd stacking penalty though). In your example, the tank is fine without either SBA or additional invul and you would help yourself much more with a painter.
As far as PvE goes, the only mission that I use an amp in is Enemies abound 5/5, all others can be tanked fine with just hardening.
Amps are not totally worthless, far from that, but they are extremely overrated. A nice sa***uard, but by no means an integral part of a good tank. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:52:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Alexander Knott
This hasn't been my experience. With 1 painter fitted, my torps easily 2-volley all battlecruisers. Cruisers take 3, maybe 4 volleys at the high end, and 1-volley at the low end. I don't bother shooting frigates with my torps, instead if I have time I paint the frigates for my drones, otherwise they're on their own.
With all the talk about using t1 cruise missiles from t2 launchers, I tried cruise missiles out again. Battlecruisers would sometimes take 3 volleys because of defenders taking out just enough cruise missiles to leave them a sliver of life, even with 3 BCS fitted. Cruisers were not noticably faster than the torpedoes when you count in number of volleys. Of course, it was very nice to not have to bother with the painter or have the long wait for the missiles to impact. Still, all in all, I think I'm sticking with t1 torps from arbalest launchers for now.
My experience has been that you only kill cruisers in 1 or 2 T1 torp volleys and one painter when they MWD towards you. Otherwise it takes at least 3. And either way the travel time of them is horrible and Battleships with good defender rates shoot them down tons.
Of course my experience has been long ago because I went for T2 torps ASAP. I also have very little experience with cruise missiles (I found them very crappy when I first used them, albeit with low skills), their usefulness when having good skills and only 0 or 1 painter is just forum lore and sound theory for me. In my practical experience, Javelin torps with 2+ painters > all. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Masakaa
Caldari The Penguin Republic Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.06 01:12:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Alexander Knott With all the talk about using t1 cruise missiles from t2 launchers, I tried cruise missiles out again. Battlecruisers would sometimes take 3 volleys because of defenders taking out just enough cruise missiles to leave them a sliver of life, even with 3 BCS fitted. Cruisers were not noticably faster than the torpedoes when you count in number of volleys. Of course, it was very nice to not have to bother with the painter or have the long wait for the missiles to impact. Still, all in all, I think I'm sticking with t1 torps from arbalest launchers for now.
Have you tried t1 cruises with a target painter fitted? I can easily take down battlecruisers with 2 volleys of t1 cruises and a target painter. Who needs torps? t1 cruises with t2 launchers works really well for me
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Seldon Corran
Caldari Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.10.06 11:18:00 -
[279]
Been reading this thread with interest to see if I can speed up my L4 missioning..
Currently using;
6 x Arb Cruise Launchers 2 x Heavy Diminishing NOS -------- 4 x Active Resists based on Mission 1 x DG Shield Amp 1 x Gist B-Type XL Booster -------- 2 x T2 BCS 2 x True Sansha PDU
Usually just use Hammerhead I's for the Frigates whilst I take out the bigger stuff with mission specific Cruise Missiles. The only mission I have to warp out of is the Bonus stage of Angel Extravaganza, any others I can tank perfectly well. Also using 3 Crystal implants for extra kick... so I boost for about 879 Shields for 172 Cap every 4 seconds and the 2 Nossers keep my Capacitor ticking along nicely.
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DEFF DSP
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Posted - 2006.10.06 22:29:00 -
[280]
Frequency Modulation Long Distance Jamming Signature Focusing Target Painting
train those skills, use target painter, use torpedos. for frigs and cruisers there are drones.
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Durban Long
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Posted - 2006.10.07 07:55:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Durban Long on 07/10/2006 07:54:56 Well i have read alot of setips and the thing i notice not many are using shield extenders or warp core stabs. Im currently soloing lvl 4's with fairly low skills here is my setup please feel free to tell me if you think its way wrong
HIGH: 6 Arbalest cruise launchers, 2 Named Heavy NOS MID: 1 Large Shield Booster II, 1 Booster Amp, 1 Large Extender II, 3 Hardners (change to suit mission) LOW: 1 BCU, 1 PDU, 1 Damage Control II, 2 STABS
Bay full of hammerhead drones
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Zaldo
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.10.07 08:26:00 -
[282]
Edited by: Zaldo on 07/10/2006 08:27:05 Here is mine
6X Arbalest Cruise 1X tractor beam 1X Heavy named Nos -------------------------------------
1X gist C-type XL Booster 1X gist B-type Boost amp 4X Active gist B hardners
If i need to tank alot of dmg i switch to a T2 inv field,and put a large cap boost on.Keeps me going for a very long time.. ---------------------------------------------------------------
2X PDU T2 3X BCU T2
When confronted whit alot of scramblers 1 of the BCU is switched whit a warp stab.
Drone bay full of T2 drones according to mission type..
Zaldoc...Miner Zaldoza..Mission Runner Zaldo....hauler |
Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.10.07 08:40:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Seldon Corran Been reading this thread with interest to see if I can speed up my L4 missioning..
Currently using;
6 x Arb Cruise Launchers 2 x Heavy Diminishing NOS -------- 4 x Active Resists based on Mission 1 x DG Shield Amp 1 x Gist B-Type XL Booster -------- 2 x T2 BCS 2 x True Sansha PDU
I use a very similar setup, (except my raven has 5 lowslots ) Those True Sansha PDS are nice for the bit of extra grid.
With regard to the Torps/Cruise thing...it kinda depends on the mission in my experience. For missions with lots of BCs, I find I finish them a bit faster with torps. The difference is about 5-7 mins on a Gurista Extravaganza for instance. If there's mostly cruisers, I definitely go with cruise missiles.
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Ramanujan
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Posted - 2006.10.07 15:02:00 -
[284]
I dont think the argument of whether a second t2 field > than an SBA is truly relevant, since most mission runners equip 3-4 mission specific hardeners. People who dont need target painters run every mission fine with 4 hardners, a SB and a SBA. I would drop the sba for a tp if it meant i finish the mission quicker, and the tank held with 4 hardeners and an SB, so I agree that a hardener > sba.
And to the person talking about cruises and torps taking the same amount of volleys for cruisers, even if that were generally true, you can do 90 cruise missile volleys for ever 30 torp volleys. Who do you think does more damage? Especially with high cruise specific skills, you shouldnt take the same number. I dont, with 3 bcu.
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Wotar
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Posted - 2006.10.07 15:37:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Ramanujan you can do 90 cruise missile volleys for ever 30 torp volleys
Since when do siege fire 3x slower then cruise?
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Ariel Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.07 16:25:00 -
[286]
This is my planned setup:
6x 'Arbalest' Cruise 2x Heavy Diminishing Nos
1x T2 XL Shield Booster 1x Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster 1x Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amp 1x T2 Invulernability Field 2x T2 Rat Spec-Hardners
3x T2 BCU 2x T2 PDU
Was originally going to go for the Gist B-Type XL but the prices went up too far for me to be able to feasibly afford one. The plan is to run everything and use the XL on maunal and have T2 drones go after small targets. Is this setup good enough to run all of the L4 missions solo, or are there some that I should avoid?
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paks3narrion
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Posted - 2006.10.07 18:20:00 -
[287]
the xl c5L shieldbooster is better than a t2 xl, so why not use that one?
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Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.10.07 18:34:00 -
[288]
Originally by: paks3narrion the xl c5L shieldbooster is better than a t2 xl, so why not use that one?
Look again, you get the same boost per sec for less cap from the T2.
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Seldon Corran
Caldari Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.10.07 21:07:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Peter Stuyvesant
Originally by: Seldon Corran Been reading this thread with interest to see if I can speed up my L4 missioning..
Currently using;
6 x Arb Cruise Launchers 2 x Heavy Diminishing NOS -------- 4 x Active Resists based on Mission 1 x DG Shield Amp 1 x Gist B-Type XL Booster -------- 2 x T2 BCS 2 x True Sansha PDU
I use a very similar setup, (except my raven has 5 lowslots ) Those True Sansha PDS are nice for the bit of extra grid.
With regard to the Torps/Cruise thing...it kinda depends on the mission in my experience. For missions with lots of BCs, I find I finish them a bit faster with torps. The difference is about 5-7 mins on a Gurista Extravaganza for instance. If there's mostly cruisers, I definitely go with cruise missiles.
lol oops... yeah I use 3x BCS II :)
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Victoria Alnilam
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Posted - 2006.10.11 03:16:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Trevor McDonald *setup stuff*
This usually gets the job done can take a while to kill some BS but get there in the end. .
First of all, thanks to all of you for sharing your setups. Helped me out on deciding how to fit this rather simplistic ship.
So after half a year about *****ing how brainless and simple flying a missileboat seems to be... I sold out and bought myself a Raven after hearing about how wondrous they are in missions, and after my own experience with a Typhoon with just torps and drones. A blasterthron is pretty fun and destructive in missions, but it can be a hassle to slowboat within less than 20km to each and every ship, especially if I am dealing with annoying NPC caldari missile spammers that tend to shoot and run.
Oh right, yeah, the Raven.
I'm a nooB with just over 4m total points, 600k in missiles so far.
Here's where I am stuck with this otherwise capable ship.
1. The capacitor recharge rate sucks. I'm used to armor tanking, and therefore usually fill the mids with cap rechargers and have at least on cap power relay in a low slot. This doesn't seem to be an option on the Raven. Am I just plain stuck with stupid cap booster 800's until I can acquire a gisti booster or not? Please say otherwise
2. Higher-end NPC battleships take f o r e v e r to take down with 6x cruise launchers. That is, unless I get a bit closer to reduce the defender spam, and to sic my drones on the sucker. I have decent missile skills so far, and can't really see this improving much. I currently have at least level three in every missile support skill, and every missile type. And from what I gather, it's not worth it to use torps in most level 4's, so what am I to do? I mean I could fit an afterburner in there to catch up to those BS's that like to put some distance between us, but as we all know, that could mean a broken tank.
Basically, in less words, I want to have a manageable cap recharge rate that doesn't break my tank or require me to warp out. I don't care for cap booster charges, honestly. I don't want to hear the word 'gisti' at all in response to this as that is not an option currently. I also want to have better dps against hardened targets... obviously without the need for an afterburner.
Current cookie cutter setup I've used with complete, albeit inefficient, success in missions like the Mordus Missilespammers (aka Mordus Aggro R Us), Zazzmafraz and his Right Hand, and Angel Lollapolooza. Please advise, anyone and everyone that would be so generous.
Just please abstain from the word "gisti" or anything else found in deadspace and/or on escrow. As in, no faction, officer, etc mods whatsoever.
Highs: XT-9000 Cruise Launcher x6 Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I x2
Meds: XLarge C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I (I tried Large t2 w/ shield amp... it's not hard on the cap, but it cannot absorb massive dps, sadly) Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (w/ 800's) 4x rat specific hardeners (t1 atm)
Lows: Ballistic Control System I Power Diagnostic System I x4
This will sound crazy, and it is, but has anyone ever tried to fit an armor tanking raven? I know... an armor tanking Caldari anything screams WTF, but... I'm curious.
Again, thanks for the input, and good luck.
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Greenwing
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Posted - 2006.10.11 08:15:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Greenwing on 11/10/2006 08:21:40 An armour tanked Raven is pretty good possible. Especially in PvP it's often used because you will have your midslots free for ECM. I've never used it in missions so can't really tell what's a good setup. Only prob is you can't fit multiple BCU's because they are also low slot.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.11 10:31:00 -
[292]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 11/10/2006 10:31:55
Originally by: Victoria Alnilam stuff
Javelin torps would solve your problem with the defenders, but they are tough on your CPU and also require like two painters to also pwn cruisers. Both these issues are solved only by the stuff I am not supposed to mention, so not an option for you I guess. So yeah, a T1-T2 Raven will always have trouble with even remotely sustainable tanking and doing missions in efficient speed. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Fr3nzi
Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.11 11:44:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Fr3nzi on 11/10/2006 11:46:23 Raven
XT-9000 Cruise Launcher XT-9000 Cruise Launcher XT-9000 Cruise Launcher XT-9000 Cruise Launcher XT-9000 Cruise Launcher XT-9000 Cruise Launcher E500 Prototype Energy Vampire Drone Link Augmentor I
'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement Ditrigonal Thermal Barrier Crystallization I F-S15 Braced Deflection Shield Matrix Non-Inertial Ballistic Screen Augmentation I XLarge C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
Mark I Generator Refitting: Diagnostic System Mark I Generator Refitting: Diagnostic System Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
thought I would give the above setup a try, my main concern is not running a Shield Amp and whether it could keep up with some of the more damage heavy missions. Drone link augmentar is there to fill up a high slot as my rail skills are **** and tractor would be pointless as I take an Osprey in after to scoop the loot.
Any pointers?
(ignore the one of each hardenerI just whacked em in to show 4)
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Duncan Storne
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Posted - 2006.10.11 14:16:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Victoria Alnilam
Highs: XT-9000 Cruise Launcher x6 Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I x2
Meds: XLarge C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I (I tried Large t2 w/ shield amp... it's not hard on the cap, but it cannot absorb massive dps, sadly) Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (w/ 800's) 4x rat specific hardeners (t1 atm)
Lows: Ballistic Control System I Power Diagnostic System I x4
First, how are your engineering skills?
Tech2 equipment would help you. A Tech2 XL Booster gives 1.5 shield/cap vs. the 1.2 you are getting now. PDS II improve your shield HP and recharge as well as your total cap and recharge. Tech2 hardeners would reduce the damage you recieve.
If you are having trouble maintaining your tank, try switching to 3x PDU.
Level 4 in your missile skills would help a bit as would Cruise Missile Specialization.
What level is your Caldari Battleship skill? The extra missile speed can help avoid some of those defenders.
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Aniphaeus
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Posted - 2006.10.11 17:12:00 -
[295]
I just got my first Raven and tried my first L4 today, The Right Hand of Zazzmatazz. I slept through all the L3s with a passive tanked Ferox, but for some reason decided to try an active tank on my Raven and failed miserably. I keep having to warp out before I can drop even one of the cruisers because I can't maintain cap with all those ships on me, even with heavy nos going. Would a passive tank with 4 T2 extenders and a couple of hardeners be any better? Here's my current setup:
6x T1 cruise 2x Knave Hvy Nos
1x XL CL-5 Booster 1x Boost Amp 4x Hardeners
4x T1 PDS 1x T1 BCS
I've got skills to fit T2 extenders, PDS, and BCS, but no money to afford the modules just yet. My shield and cap skills are all at 4, with shield op going for 5 so I can use a T2 booster. My missile range and RoF skills are all at 4, and I'm working on guided missile precision and target navigation prediction.
Any suggestions?
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Jatonix
FENN Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.11 18:08:00 -
[296]
Best set-up ive ever used was the following :
6 x arby cruise 2 x Heavy diminishing nos 1 x gist b xl shield booster 4 x gist hardners ( 2 x em, 1 x kin, 1 x therm change for certain missions ) 1 x pith b shield amp
4 x pdu II 1 x bcu II
could solo all missions - worlds colliede ____________________________________________
CEO and still kick'in your ass since KIA
Like this Sig..? Visit |
Doragee
Minmatar Unknown Society
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Posted - 2006.10.11 18:17:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Aniphaeus working on guided missile precision and target navigation prediction.
That is essential...
And w. low SP: Take sieges w. infernos + L T2 booster, kill Zor, the 2nd bs and the named cruiser, maybe warp out after that... Kill Zor 1st. which is essential as he really hurts!!! --
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Victoria Alnilam
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Posted - 2006.10.12 09:32:00 -
[298]
Duncan Storne and Leandro Salazar, thanks for your replies.
Yeah, it's fairly evident that my skills are not quite up to par for doing missions without having to warp out under heavy, consistent incoming dps. For example, I trained up on missile projection, and my DPS took in a nice boost.
My engineering skills are all either 4 or 3, T2 hardeners on the way as well. I'm currently working on drones 5 for drone interfacing as that is, apparently, what made drones a viable option against inties on my other toons. And as many people know, a scrambling inty could very well mean a dead ship, so I usually make them my first priority as soon a I spawn to them.
I'm just concerned that what someone said about Ravens was right. The ship itself isn't the impervious L4 mission runner it's purported to be without T2 everything. Capacitor efficiency seems to be its biggest weakness under sustained DPS absorption. While Cap 800's may be fine and dandy for pvp ops, it's not exactly a choice option for constant mission whoring, imho. It's rather upsetting because a T1 Typhoon, in my experience, with good hardeners and related skills can absorb more damage and sustain cap drain with much less skill requirements.
I'll just have to be more patient and train everything to 5. So yeah, advice to ppl considering the Raven, don't bother if you intend to mission run L4 unless you can use T2 everything... at the very least T2 hardeners, T2 PDU's, and T2 boosters. Unless you want to depend on Cap Booster 800's like a drug addict and her *******, and don't mind spending an absurdly long time on missions like Mordus Aggromongers, I think you'd do well to heed this advice. |
Yumi Katanawe
Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.12 11:38:00 -
[299]
You should try a cap recharger. The c5 XL booster supported by both a boost amplifier and a cap recharger becomes much more manageable cap-wise. I swapped 1 PDU for a damage control to compensate for the lost hardener and it works wonders.
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Nery Nebu
Caldari Galactic Haulers and Miners
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Posted - 2006.10.14 10:14:00 -
[300]
Where do u all get that named stuff ? haven't found it on the market.
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