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| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
36
   |
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:19:00 -
[211] - Quote
Arte wrote:Grace Murray wrote:Wow, thanks for yet another w-space nerf in the winter patch. Now, not only is PI going to cost us a lot more, but instead of fueling our tower mostly on PI goods from in our system, and only needing to haul in ice goo for fuel, we either need to buy it ALL, or haul everything out, find a nearby factory, buy ice goo, and haul it all back in again.
CCP, PLEASE stop only considering the "big alliance in nullsec" case when you design these things. That's not your entire player base, and homogenizing your game takes out a lot of what makes it cool in the first place. THIS.I applaud the changes on the whole, if you LISTEN to some of the suggestions given in this thread then this could be a very very good patch for pretty much all concerned, however; Please do not just push the concerns of wormhole dwellers aside saying "well, someone has to get hurt in every patch". Currently those that live in W-Space only need to haul ice products in, now we have to develop the logistics to either get the blocks from K-Space and haul that in (greater volume then before) or manufacture the blocks after hauling the same ice products in... self-sustainability has taken a hit.  Listen to and react to the feedback... already in ~10 pages there is a concensus building on how to overcome some of the issues you highlighted.
Or have an ammo assembly array, and build it yourself? Just 4 hours a day for a large tower. And that's using one run. Buy a few blueprints, and use multiple lines. |
Marsha Mallow
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:20:00 -
[212] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Currently thinking about:
- Fuel divisibility situation (ie, faction/sov fuel bonuses)
- Block build times
Keep on posting, we are paying attention :)
If you can add Dierdra Vaal's suggestion of colour coding the blocks to racial type... that covers most of the concerns.
This is a sentiment I think many people will agree with though, and bears repeating:
CynoNet Two wrote:I hate to say it, but i think CCP are trying too hard to please us...
As a lifelong starbase masochist I'm all for starbase improvements. Hell there's a reason I mentioned fuel pellets in the CSM proposal. However this whole devblog smacks of pushing out a fix as quickly as possible to impress us, rather than spending a little more time to get it right. Shortcuts like half and half fueling, cutting fuel bonuses and the inevitable market chaos caused by the changes in a short period between patches.
Greyscale, rest assured that we are impressed that you're actively working on fixing these issues. Please take the time to do it properly rather than rushing things out for the holidays. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd rather wait an extra few weeks for the automatic handover than spend December re-fueling towers constantly.
BPO seeding in the main patch, fuel change over in the new year. |
Halloween Harry
X1983
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:22:00 -
[213] - Quote
Metis Laxon wrote:
You listen as well, with this system you only need to haul in fuel pellets that you bought off the market. If you don't want to manufacture them at your own POS, which you can. Using the same damn materials you are used to.
You havn't the production capacity in station to make all the fuel. On large POS need a production slot for 5days every 29days. |
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:22:00 -
[214] - Quote
beautiful - much needed, and about damn time.
that said - this is a good start, please don't stop iterating on these changes :) |
Svennig
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:23:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP:
Fuel pellets are a good idea, although I agree with the statements here that faction towers are nerfed and build times need to be slashed unless you want no slots anywhere.
I'd also like you to take some time to think about another ship class: a tanker. 1m m3 fuel bay that can only contain ice products (and the new pos bricks), jump drive, same stats as a JF. This will simplify the import and export of ice products, and so simplify POS and capital logistics for large corporations. |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
64
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:24:00 -
[216] - Quote
Halloween Harry wrote:Metis Laxon wrote:
You listen as well, with this system you only need to haul in fuel pellets that you bought off the market. If you don't want to manufacture them at your own POS, which you can. Using the same damn materials you are used to.
You havn't the production capacity in station to make all the fuel. On large POS need a production slot for 5days every 29days.
So basically: every 10 towers need 2 lines in one station for a Month (roughly speaking)
so how many towers are out there and how many production lines do we have?
i see interesting times...
DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361
Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:25:00 -
[217] - Quote
Halloween Harry wrote:Metis Laxon wrote:
You listen as well, with this system you only need to haul in fuel pellets that you bought off the market. If you don't want to manufacture them at your own POS, which you can. Using the same damn materials you are used to.
You havn't the production capacity in station to make all the fuel. On large POS need a production slot for 5days every 29days.
Or the equivalent, with multiple runs. One ammo assembly array, 1 day a month. (if the 0.75 multiplier for it doesn't kick in. if it does, that's 18 hours) |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
70
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:25:00 -
[218] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
1 robotics makes 4 fuel blocks, so large towers use 1/hour (4 blocks), mediums use 0.5 (2 blocks) and smalls use 0.25 (1 block).
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Sort Dragon
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:25:00 -
[219] - Quote
Would ccp be willing to give 1 bpo to each person as a redeemable item then have extra bpos on the market as this is going to be the forced fuel type for the future and not everyone will have the means to maybe get a bpo?
|
Eutectic
Aperture Harmonics
K162
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:26:00 -
[220] - Quote
Wow changes like this make me wonder if CCP actually have any clue as to how EVE actually works. It's simply mind boggling they can think that it's a simple thing to eliminate PG/CPU consumption rates from POS fuel cycle by maximizing the Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone rates to 150 units an hour each for a large tower. In many cases for towers this is an increase of 100% to 1500% in that particular fuel consumption rate.
I'm guessing overall this change in fuel cycle will on average mean a 400% increase in Liquid Ozone and Heavy Water consumption across Eve. Prices are already spiking in Jita and availability is tightening. Reminds me of PI all over again, but at least this time around endless NPC goods aren't available for hoarding. Get ready for a large spike in the total cost of running POS's. |
Dalton Vanadis
Miranda United
F0RCEFUL ENTRY
425
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:26:00 -
[221] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Dalton Vanadis wrote:I would like to say that one idea that is probably easy to implement and will make all of your players who manage towers very very very happy with you is to just plop a full load of these pellets into the fuel bay on patch day, just erase their old fuel, put in 29 days of fuel blocks and call it a day. - Anchor Tower - Put in a bit of fuel - Convert to blocks for free - Tear down tower - Sell fuel
Damn, always forget it's EVE, and players will always find a way to pull moar ISK.
Something to consider might be that the injection of ISK/materials into the market might then offset some of the inevitable post-expansion market inflation of the materials keeping the overall system slightly more stable than the all out land-grab of materials that will happen otherwise.
Plus leading up the expansion, if everyone was going to try and anchor towers to get the free fuel, tower prices will spike, likely making it an overall loss of ISK to just buy a tower off the market. Furthermore, increasing supply on the market through that means would be akin to seeding it directly on the market from the get go, which would decrease the transition period.
But yeah, hadn't considered how people would scam the system, so probably wouldn't work overall... Too bad, would have made life easier for everyone just keeping their actual towers running. |
Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:28:00 -
[222] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Dalton Vanadis wrote:I would like to say that one idea that is probably easy to implement and will make all of your players who manage towers very very very happy with you is to just plop a full load of these pellets into the fuel bay on patch day, just erase their old fuel, put in 29 days of fuel blocks and call it a day. - Anchor Tower - Put in a bit of fuel - Convert to blocks for free - Tear down tower - Sell fuel Gee, a one-time bonus as opposed to yet another conversion nightmare? Yeah, I think we'll all survive that.
|
Metis Laxon
Zero Point Group
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:28:00 -
[223] - Quote
Halloween Harry wrote:Metis Laxon wrote:
You listen as well, with this system you only need to haul in fuel pellets that you bought off the market. If you don't want to manufacture them at your own POS, which you can. Using the same damn materials you are used to.
You havn't the production capacity in station to make all the fuel. On large POS need a production slot for 5days every 29days.
If that is a concern to you run an array and produce it at your own POS. Don't forget that there are thousands of hisec POS users that will jump on this as a way to make consolidated ISK from their planets. People are not just limited to station production. |
Lynn Deniera
The Foreign Legion
Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:28:00 -
[224] - Quote
Someone may have pointed this out, but for your math problem with the bonus being applied to faction towers/and sov space, all you need to do is make the blocks smaller so that it fits.
Also will players now be able to drop ozone into jump bridges that are belonged to a mutually blue alliance? (Instead of sitting on the jb waiting for someone from that alliance to come along to fuel it)
|
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:28:00 -
[225] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:To everyone suggesting faction towers have a longer fuel cycle time: Remember the one hour cycle is built into all pos processes, moon mining reactors and so on. Adding a new cycle timer for one of those processes (fuel use) would be a pain. Also remember that starbase charter consumption is not effected, so it would still be one per hour., resulting in different starbase fuels being consumed on different schedules.
Im leaning to increase the fuel block count by x50 and drop their volume to 1 cu m.
Just consume the starbase charters at the same time you do the fuel cycle, those barely cost anything compared to the actual fuel anyway. Stretching that really makes no difference whatsoever...
But nevertheless, I'd rather rave a smaller fuel block and be able to reduce consumption then. I don't give a crap if I haul 100 or 1000 or 10000 blocks as long as the volume is the same. Who cares about the stack size? And if someone cares, WHY!?
CCP Greyscale wrote:Currently thinking about:
- Fuel divisibility situation (ie, faction/sov fuel bonuses)
- Block build times
Keep on posting, we are paying attention :)
Very good! Promising even :D
Apollo Gabriel wrote:As to Faction towers can you make them get an hour free per day? Something akin to every 23 hours they burn fuel they get an hour free? It would be a rather simple fix and keeps the cycle time at 1 hour.
That would most likely be much more work to be implemented, as you need to somehow keep track of the online-hours. Just cutting down the block size and having them require a bit less is a much simpler approach, only requiring tweaking some DB values compared to actually programming the new counter and exploit-proofing it... |
mkint
290
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:29:00 -
[226] - Quote
Largo Coronet wrote:Labrena wrote:You practically have to have a POS just to build anything these days in any quantity. Yeah, you'd think CCP wanted us to be more reliant on one another instead of having it spoon fed to us by NPC corps. Oh wai...
POSes and corp roles are proof that players are NOT meant to work together. |
Maria Blick
skeltari Corp
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:32:00 -
[227] - Quote
As a solution to the half-and-half problem during changeover, why not simply empty every fuel bay, and give everyone 14 days of free fuel blocks? Think of it as making up the years of major PITA. |
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics
K162
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:32:00 -
[228] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Currently thinking about:
- Fuel divisibility situation (ie, faction/sov fuel bonuses)
- Block build times
Keep on posting, we are paying attention :)
Get a clue about the HW/LO changes you just made.
Watch your backs CCP |
Morphius Reales
Astral Forging
Velocitas Eradico
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:33:00 -
[229] - Quote
Overall a good change.
However, I also agree that making a better bonus for faction towers should be done.
I don't see why multiplying your current values by 10 would make anything more complicated math wise (10/hr for small, 20/hr for med, 40/hr for large), and would give the latitude to make bonuses to fuel for faction towers. |
Nocturrne Primitive
Cloak and Daggers
Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:33:00 -
[230] - Quote
No! No! NOO!
So, not only do I have to flog myself to gather all of the fuel, but I also have to package it into friggin blocks....
How is this supposed to make our lives easier?
|
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:34:00 -
[231] - Quote
Sort Dragon wrote:Would ccp be willing to give 1 bpo to each person as a redeemable item then have extra bpos on the market as this is going to be the forced fuel type for the future and not everyone will have the means to maybe get a bpo?
HAHHAHAHAA
If you're lucky, the BPOs won't be 75M+ each.
|
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
99
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:35:00 -
[232] - Quote
okay, now i have re-read the blog and all the comments ^^
so, pretty good changes here.
JB password gone will be pretty nice.
(un)anchoring delays extremaly reduced will make me think about changing pos, and maybe even go back to w-space (deathstar takes so much hours to put on... and way more out)
i like the robotics change also, small tower were almost useless these days given how expensive are robotics...
1) for the blocks, i consider as lots of said that it would be very easy to add a "0" to the creation and consumption, so that the faction and sov bonus is done.
it's not a zero that will make things more complex for us...
2) the time to produce that seems to high. on high sec it will be good for people wanting to manufacture this to sell, but for null or w-space it will be a pain.
even with the change on anchoring, if you have to online a ammunition array for one day every week it may be an issue, as you need obviously to have something else offline during this time.
3) the icons, change them. each faction have it's color, why are you not using this here for the blocks ? i don't get it. |
Zakarumit CZ
Black Core Federation
Intrepid Crossing
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:36:00 -
[233] - Quote
Seriously, keep the faction tower fuel bonus |
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon
Intrepid Crossing
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:36:00 -
[234] - Quote
Nocturrne Primitive wrote:No! No! NOO!
So, not only do I have to flog myself to gather all of the fuel, but I also have to package it into friggin blocks....
How is this supposed to make our lives easier?
Why not just buy the blocks? |
Inyor Dreams
Venom.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:36:00 -
[235] - Quote
Pavee Lackeen wrote:So basically you are just adding another step in the fueling process while removing some bonuses?
Doesn't seem like anything was gaining and the drudgery increases.
^^^ this
it has simplified tower fuelling, but put extra steps in as you still need all the components AND have to build the blocks!!!
|
mkint
291
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:36:00 -
[236] - Quote
Eutectic wrote:Wow changes like this make me wonder if CCP actually have any clue as to how EVE actually works. It's simply mind boggling they can think that it's a simple thing to eliminate PG/CPU consumption rates from POS fuel cycle by maximizing the Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone rates to 150 units an hour each for a large tower. In many cases for towers this is an increase of 100% to 1500% in that particular fuel consumption rate.
I'm guessing overall this change in fuel cycle will on average mean a 400% increase in Liquid Ozone and Heavy Water consumption across Eve. Prices are already spiking in Jita and availability is tightening. Reminds me of PI all over again, but at least this time around endless NPC goods aren't available for hoarding. Get ready for a large spike in the total cost of running POS's.
Actually, this is an extremely good point. Ice products are about to be broken the same way T3 mats are. I wonder which of the ice products will be the new MNRs and everything else that will be garbage. Would be freakin' hilarious if this totally negated the "ice interdiction" project, but not worth it at the cost of destroying the whole ice market. |
UGINSECOND
Iridium Inc.
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:38:00 -
[237] - Quote
Why we lost a claim-dependence ?
Why we need lose a production slots for fuel producing ?
Why we MUST use a ozone ? |
Arte
Aura.
Talocan United
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:38:00 -
[238] - Quote
Metis Laxon wrote:Arte wrote:Some stuff I said
You listen as well, with this system you only need to haul in fuel pellets that you bought off the market. If you don't want to manufacture them at your own POS, which you can. Using the same damn materials you are used to.
You learn to read.
Currently wormhole dwellers only have to haul in ice products. This only requires a certain volume. That volume has just increased making logistics harder.
Or
Wormhole dwellers can manufacture the pellets themselvs, making logistics slightly harder.
As I said, it's easier in a lot of respects and I applaud the changes, with a few tweeks they just made POS management a whole lot easier, but it also put in another layer of logistics into the POS management. If you're not involved in producing your own fuel this is a win/win change - you can't lose.
Most wormhole dwellers however are in the business of producing their fuel already through PI and so the extra layer of logistics comes into effect.
I wasn't crying about it. Just raising it as a point. YOU don't have to be a prick about it. |
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:38:00 -
[239] - Quote
I also want to know when faction towers will make a return.
I Support the Goons! |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
296
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 17:38:00 -
[240] - Quote
Maaxeru wrote:Celebris Nexterra wrote:Soooo when someone is being POS-bashed, (assuming they have an infinite amount of batteries) they can continually anchor and online ECM/Neut/SD batteries???? Someone mentioned doing the same with guns earlier, but because you have to come outside the shield to put ammo in them, it didn't matter. But those batteries don't need ammo, and many would argue a tower should only have ECM batteries on it, as they are rather OP.
I really see a problem with these new anchoring/onlining times. Someone mentioned having a queue set up. I think this is more appropriate, as a POS SHOULD be challenging to set up in that it takes a long time. But you shouldn't have to sit there and stare at each mod waiting for it to anchor/online.
POS bashes are already long and boring enough, please don't make it worse. ^^ This. - AND - Letting all blues use all your JBs . . . . nice. Letting all blues use all your JBs and not giving them some way to fuel the JB . . . . not nice. Don't let them take fuel out or see how much is in there, but create either a setting that actually allows them to voluntarily fuel the bridge, OR, put on a setting that makes them (or anyone, even if in your Aliance) pay for their jump in liquid ozone. You could either make it POS specific, or a option that queues off some global Alliance setting the executor can set. In that way, you could say "Everyone get here! Reds inbound! The bridges are "free Pass" to you!" - or - "Nothing's going on today except some hardcore carebearing. Pay for your own damned fuel!" EDIT: While you're at it, please also create a log of who used the JB inluding at least char name and shiptype. This way if someone is abusing the network, we can see it and whap them in the head. - Thanks!
One work around - allow the POS owner to set a fee for the use of the JB that scales in the same way that JB fuel usage scales. That would make them a bit more revenue neutral. |
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