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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
298
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:26:00 -
[301] - Quote
Tas Nok wrote: which really brings up the other problem, this one size fits all while wonderful for POSes that have enough guns and arrays to really fill up an overview doesn't do much for the corp with the faction tower with only a few mods online specifically in order to save fuel costs! now with the blocks it won't matter if I have 1 gun online or 20...
Which is not a real big issue. If you assume a non-faction, large tower with no sov bonuses you were paying current about (per 30 days):
174M for PI-sourced fuels 155-167M for isotopes (310M for oxytopes) 2.3M in Heavy Water - if you ran at full tilt 34.6M in Liquid Ozone - if you ran at full tilt
So, Heavy Water was about 0.5% of your fuel cost per month and Liquid Ozone was about 9% of your fuel cost per month. Assuming that you used about half of your PG, you saved a mere 17.3M ISK/30d each month.
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Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
15
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:26:00 -
[302] - Quote
Are these seriously the best fuel calculations you can come up with? I suggest more head punching.
You've changed the fuel market dynamics dramatically, just look at high-sec forge region, last time I looked at heavy water it was 21.17 p/u, I looked a little while ago when I was working out the new costings, and there were 2 sellers in forge, the rest of the market was bare. You've created an extra demand for heavy water and liquid ozone of around 12.7k units for a dread guristas medium tower over a 4 week period. That's the equivalent of an extra 500+ blocks of ice people need if they mine for their own towers. You've also created an excess of robotics, and mechanical parts, so those prices will probably drop.
Overall, personally I think the calculations could have been better. You say you've spoken to large holders of towers, I suspect they were big 0.0 power blocks where fueling is a hassle, for empire dwellers, it makes no real difference if you've got to fuel your tower after 25 days, or 35 days, just a couple of iteron V's worth and it's done.
Yeah it's a whine post, whatya going to do about it
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Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
62
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:27:00 -
[303] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Why not just convert the fuel that is currently in the fuel bay into fuel pellets?
Convert a gas engine car to a diesel engine car as it's travelling down the highway. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
20
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:28:00 -
[304] - Quote
Not to point out the obvious, but why not make 8 blocks per production run (same materials)?
Small tower: 2 blocks / hour Small pirate tower: 2 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity Small commander tower: 1 block / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity
Medium tower: 4 blocks / hour Medium pirate tower: 3 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity Medium commander tower: 2 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity
Large tower: 8 blocks / hour Large pirate tower: 7 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity Large commander tower: 6 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity
Sovereignty reduces fuel consumption by 1 block per hour down to a minimum of 1 block per hour (so no free small commander towers in sov systems). |
Nocturrne Primitive
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:28:00 -
[305] - Quote
Toshiko Kin wrote:Nocturrne Primitive wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote:Nocturrne Primitive wrote:No! No! NOO!
So, not only do I have to flog myself to gather all of the fuel, but I also have to package it into friggin blocks....
How is this supposed to make our lives easier?
Why not just buy the blocks? Buy where? There is no market or even a station near most of our POSs. In 0.0 we must be self sufficient. At the moment, we harvest all of our POS fuels in system or nearby. Having to travel long distances and make or buy blocks is an epic nightmare. Did I miss something? I could have sworn the dev blog said they would be manufactured in POS ammo arrays? "The four racial fuel blocks will be built in batches of four in all stations, plus starbase ammo assembly arrays..." So why are you traveling long distances again?
You are missing the point. How does adding these extra steps make our lives easier? POSs are already one of the most horrible things in eve - everything about them needs to be simplified. How can the idea of making them more complex even be considered? This is just looney... |
Arra Lith
HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:31:00 -
[306] - Quote
This is really stupid. One change and faction towers are useless. What next? Also sovereignity wont give any fuel usage boost any more ???
You cant make tower to burn 0.75 unit. But it should be possible to make tower burn 100 units. Faction tower then gets 25% usage bonus, and it use 75 units. Sovereignity futher increase it by 25%, making tower burn 50 units per hour.
It should be dont this way:
BPO for 100 fuel blocks uses current hourly large pos usage. 1 hour cycle uses: Large standard POS: 100 blocks Medium standard: 50 blocks Small standard: 25 blocks Large faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 75 blocks Medium faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 38 blocks Small faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 19 blocks Large faction and sov claimed: 50 blocks Medium faction and sov claimed: 25 blocks Small faction and sov claimed: 13 blocks
If nothing is changed industry gets really bad hit. Just make reactors anchorable in hi sec and make EVE another sims type game, will be easier to finally quit and find something better... |
Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru RONA Directorate
6
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:32:00 -
[307] - Quote
In reference to changing the fuel system for faction control towers... why not just change the fuel cycle time?
Where standard towers cycle through fuel every one hour, why not have tier 1 faction towers cycle every one hour and fifteen minutes, and have tier 2 faction towers cycle ever one hour and thirty minutes?
Makes sense to me. |
Mzr
Session9 Malum Exuro
1
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:33:00 -
[308] - Quote
Ok, gonna make a summary of what's good and bad with the new system and the things suggested in this thread. Simple = good so I like the new changes, but a few issues need to be adressed.
1. Faction towers don't have any fuel reduction bonuses atm, nor do sov towers. This is bad. Refueling faction towers every 42 days is not gonna help me much vs. regulars at 29. You're just telling me I have to visit a faction POS (roughly) 9 times a year instead of 13 (regular) - not interested, you already added the much needed bonus to vanilla towers.
Solutions: a) If faction/sov tower fuel reduction cannot be reached via the time unit (60min being a hardlock), then please consider the granulation suggested in this thread.
b) Faction BPs to manufacture faction fuel blocks, prolly those can be seeded as well - but you have to take into account tier1 and tier2 faction - prolly this adds more complexity to solution - your call. After production those faction blocks could only be used in their respective POSes types.
2. We already have the fuel (block ingredients), just let us transform it to pellets/blocks (delivery method to the POS) very easily. We're in the business of burning fuel, not cooking it some more - block build times are ridiculous. Same goes for refine - let us refine any unused blocks at 100% efficiency (or skill related).
3. Extremely low anchoring/onlining times can lead to people literally ninja'ing POSes up/down fast. Idk, but it seems this mechanic can be abused. Keep an eye on it.
4. As McCreedy once said `I'm gonna cut your balls with a rusty spoon` :) if you leave all racial blocks blue. It's retareded and creates confusion. How about have them nicely glowing in the racial ECM colors (so POS owners actually learn something about EW :).
5. While we're on the POS subject how about you make a small but extremely usefull change to POS reactions: let us move intake silos / harvesters / reactors / couplings / exhaust silos / etc. up and down as tiles (exemplified here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYtq0K-Ass - sorry, your link integration doesn't work) - so we get the much needed logic in reaction chains. You really don't want to see how everything looks on a large POS that does 2 moon reactions and manufactures boosters. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
215
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:33:00 -
[309] - Quote
How big is that bruise on your head mr greyscale?
either way awsome change.
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Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
133
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:33:00 -
[310] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Not to point out the obvious, but why not make 8 blocks per production run (same materials)?
Small tower: 2 blocks / hour Small pirate tower: 2 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity Small commander tower: 1 block / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity
Medium tower: 4 blocks / hour Medium pirate tower: 3 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity Medium commander tower: 2 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity
Large tower: 8 blocks / hour Large pirate tower: 7 blocks / hour, +25% fuel 1 capacity Large commander tower: 6 blocks / hour, +50% fuel 1 capacity
Sovereignty reduces fuel consumption by 1 block per hour down to a minimum of 1 block per hour (so no free small commander towers in sov systems).
i could live with this. add a extra fuel bay for charters in empire, cos well there bits of paper and should have a document folder not a fuel bay. reduce the build time on the fuel cube batch to 1min from 10min CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru RONA Directorate
6
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:33:00 -
[311] - Quote
double post |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
1
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:33:00 -
[312] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:HOLY **** CCP!!!
Thanks guys!!
As to Faction towers can you make their fuel cycle 1.5 hours or something to still give a fuel bonus? maybe 1 hr 10 mins?
I don't use them, but just thought I'd toss out the idea.
I love that CCP is removing UN-NEEDED COMPLEXITY!!
The game is getting richer, thanks!
Or maybe every "X" cycles consuming blocks it skips "Z" cycles don't consuming blocks?
Or maybe every "X" cycles consuming blocks its "Recycles wastes" creating one additional block?
The less stress on the hardware the better... pick one... |
s1n1ster m1n1ster
Beyond Divinity Inc
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 18:34:00 -
[313] - Quote
Hello,
great changes!!!
now a suggestion! we all know how it sucks for people living in POS's to figure out security etc...!!
sugestions!
corp hanger, different sizes for different m3 in it, so that you can configure how much m3 to give to each members!, they can use it sperately and they can only use it! ->> secure! --->> for mods
same thing about where to store ship, make members have XXX m3 to store their ship, if they want more ships, their problem leave in pos shield!
different sizes of these for different m3 -> corp numbers!
what ya think? |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
143
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:35:00 -
[314] - Quote
Now that's amazing changes, more time to actually pew pew or "bzzzzt" rocks
I'm not directly concerned but expect these changes to please a lot of players. Not all obviously. |
Momoro
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:37:00 -
[315] - Quote
Crexa wrote:Nomad I wrote:To me this system makes pos fueling much more expensive. I have either to anchor an extra POS to produce blocks, because the production slots are so limited or I have them to buy on market. This system is becomming more annoying. The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with you. Perhaps a new fuel producing module for pos? While your at it, take a look at refining arrays.
How about give the control tower a special manufacturing facility like the Rorqual has? It can only turn PI / ice products into these fuel blocks. If not, then some information about what pos module can make these blocks would be useful.
I also support higher discretization of blocks so that you can support pos fuel bonuses. I highly recommend discretization at 100 blocks fuels a normal large tower for an hour (50 for a medium, 25 for a small). I can multiply by 10s in my head pretty easily (2400 blocks is enough fuel for a day).
I am a bit concerned about the heavy water and liquid ozone use going to maximum. For POSes that use 137 liquid ozone instead of 150, this matters little and the changes reduce complexity. This does make a lot more difference for POSes that used 0 liquid ozone and would now use 150 though. This situation particularly occurs when initially onlining a tower.
I am willing to accept some turmoil and imperfection sooner as long as we get iteration to smooth out the bumps. Just acknowledge and communicate them.
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Iniquita
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:38:00 -
[316] - Quote
Internet Knight wrote:In reference to changing the fuel system for faction control towers... why not just change the fuel cycle time?
Where standard towers cycle through fuel every one hour, why not have tier 1 faction towers cycle every one hour and fifteen minutes, and have tier 2 faction towers cycle ever one hour and thirty minutes?
Makes sense to me.
This seems incredibly logical. This same mechanic could be used for sov |
DisBeyotch
Scifried Strategic Military Industries
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:38:00 -
[317] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Tas Nok wrote: which really brings up the other problem, this one size fits all while wonderful for POSes that have enough guns and arrays to really fill up an overview doesn't do much for the corp with the faction tower with only a few mods online specifically in order to save fuel costs! now with the blocks it won't matter if I have 1 gun online or 20...
Which is not a real big issue. If you assume a non-faction, large tower with no sov bonuses you were paying current about (per 30 days): 174M for PI-sourced fuels 155-167M for isotopes (310M for oxytopes) 2.3M in Heavy Water - if you ran at full tilt 34.6M in Liquid Ozone - if you ran at full tilt So, Heavy Water was about 0.5% of your fuel cost per month and Liquid Ozone was about 9% of your fuel cost per month. Assuming that you used about half of your PG, you saved a mere 17.3M ISK/30d each month.
Your logic is flawed. Your numbers are correct given the current POS fueling setup. With the documented changes the market demand for HW is going to go up by a factor of 10, directly causeing the price to go up exponentially as well. |
darius mclever
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 18:39:00 -
[318] - Quote
Momoro wrote:Crexa wrote:Nomad I wrote:To me this system makes pos fueling much more expensive. I have either to anchor an extra POS to produce blocks, because the production slots are so limited or I have them to buy on market. This system is becomming more annoying. The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with you. Perhaps a new fuel producing module for pos? While your at it, take a look at refining arrays. How about give the control tower a special manufacturing facility like the Rorqual has? It can only turn PI / ice products into these fuel blocks. If not, then some information about what pos module can make these blocks would be useful. I also support higher discretization of blocks so that you can support pos fuel bonuses. I highly recommend discretization at 100 blocks fuels a normal large tower for an hour (50 for a medium, 25 for a small). I can multiply by 10s in my head pretty easily (2400 blocks is enough fuel for a day). I am a bit concerned about the heavy water and liquid ozone use going to maximum. For POSes that use 137 liquid ozone instead of 150, this matters little and the changes reduce complexity. This does make a lot more difference for POSes that used 0 liquid ozone and would now use 150 though. This situation particularly occurs when initially onlining a tower. I am willing to accept some turmoil and imperfection sooner as long as we get iteration to smooth out the bumps. Just acknowledge and communicate them.
they already said there will be pos arrays to build those fuel blocks on the POS. |
Grukni
Shimai of New Eden N E X O
13
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:39:00 -
[319] - Quote
I sign for more fuel granularity: 40 cubelets instead of 4
Does CCP want to get rid of fuel reduction advantages of faction POSes and Sov? please, CCP, comment on this. |
Arra Lith
HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:42:00 -
[320] - Quote
Quote:We stuck with small numbers of blocks and no fuel use bonus on faction towers because dealing with small numbers of blocks makes starbases in general easier to use
This is bad approach. Most people use decimal system. So its no difference for humans between 1 or 10 or 100 per hour. If someone want to fuel POS for 10 days it doesnt matter if you make 1 hour burn 100 units or 10 units. It will be even easier if you make it 100 per hour than 4 per hour. And most towers in EVE universe are large standard ones. |
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Crunchmeister
THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD.
84
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:42:00 -
[321] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Currently thinking about: Keep on posting, we are paying attention :)
That single line, as small as it seems to be, is probably the greatest dev post in this thread so far. Perhaps on the entire forum even.
Seriously, the fact you guys are finally really paying attention to the ideas and suggestions of the community rather than ignoring us and going about with your plans unhindered speaks volumes on the fresh new attitude CCP has been demonstrating as of late. Two thumbs way up for that. Keep it up.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
126
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:42:00 -
[322] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Tas Nok wrote: which really brings up the other problem, this one size fits all while wonderful for POSes that have enough guns and arrays to really fill up an overview doesn't do much for the corp with the faction tower with only a few mods online specifically in order to save fuel costs! now with the blocks it won't matter if I have 1 gun online or 20...
Which is not a real big issue. If you assume a non-faction, large tower with no sov bonuses you were paying current about (per 30 days): 174M for PI-sourced fuels 155-167M for isotopes (310M for oxytopes) 2.3M in Heavy Water - if you ran at full tilt 34.6M in Liquid Ozone - if you ran at full tilt So, Heavy Water was about 0.5% of your fuel cost per month and Liquid Ozone was about 9% of your fuel cost per month. Assuming that you used about half of your PG, you saved a mere 17.3M ISK/30d each month.
This uses the costs as they are now, not as they will be in 2 months. If we get a heavy water shortage the cost could go sky high.
What is needed to insure ice mining supplies sufficient heavy water for POS needs, either by boosting heavy water obtained from ice or by reducing the need in fuel cube production.
Edit 1 CCP: If Im a POS user who mines his own ice, mining sufficient ice to get the isotopes should also get me sufficient heavy water and liquid ozone.
Edit 2 If it all comes from ice in sort of set amounts that get used in set amounts, why have them? Maybe HW and LO have outlived their usefulness as game mechanics. Just get rid of them. Jump bridges run on fuel cubes. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Harleigh
Genbuku. Nulli Secunda
2
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:44:00 -
[323] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Currently thinking about:
- Fuel divisibility situation (ie, faction/sov fuel bonuses)
- Block build times
Keep on posting, we are paying attention :)
I like the new CCP :) \o/
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Chesticular Homicide
Boundless Invention
2
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:46:00 -
[324] - Quote
Faction fuel pellet blueprints are a terrible idea.
Where would they come from? They wouldn't be BPO's, no faction blueprints are. So, there would end up being a per pellet blueprint cost associated with the pellet, which could end up negating the fuel savings benefit you get from the tower. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
513
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:48:00 -
[325] - Quote
Iniquita wrote:Internet Knight wrote:In reference to changing the fuel system for faction control towers... why not just change the fuel cycle time?
Where standard towers cycle through fuel every one hour, why not have tier 1 faction towers cycle every one hour and fifteen minutes, and have tier 2 faction towers cycle ever one hour and thirty minutes?
Makes sense to me. This seems incredibly logical. This same mechanic could be used for sov
Arrays cycle the same as the pos. This is/was needed for accurate fuel calculations. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Andre Coeurl
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
2
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Posted - 2011.11.07 18:49:00 -
[326] - Quote
Arra Lith wrote:This is really stupid. One change and faction towers are useless. What next? Also sovereignity wont give any fuel usage boost any more ???
You cant make tower to burn 0.75 unit. But it should be possible to make tower burn 100 units. Faction tower then gets 25% usage bonus, and it use 75 units. Sovereignity futher increase it by 25%, making tower burn 50 units per hour.
It should be dont this way:
BPO for 100 fuel blocks uses current hourly large pos usage. 1 hour cycle uses: Large standard POS: 100 blocks Medium standard: 50 blocks Small standard: 25 blocks Large faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 75 blocks Medium faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 38 blocks Small faction / or standard POS with sovereignity claimed by alliance: 19 blocks Large faction and sov claimed: 50 blocks Medium faction and sov claimed: 25 blocks Small faction and sov claimed: 13 blocks
If nothing is changed industry gets really bad hit. Just make reactors anchorable in hi sec and make EVE another sims type game, will be easier to finally quit and find something better...
CCP Grayscale, I absolutely agree with all those who pointed out that faction tower (and sov) bonus must stay as it is, and that there are ways to make it work.
In general, the idea of making blocks doesn't seem any good to me in general, as it doesn't change the basics of POS fueling, while adding an industry step in the process. The basics are having (buying, mining or producing) a plethora of items in different amounts, and getting them all in one place, and you added the need to have a production step before being able to use the fuels. Some may like this (ppl who just buy the blocks off the market, and in general, those who have more ISK than manpower), while it is highly inconvenient to those who do the fuelling completely or partly by themselves, as they won't be able to haul stuff separately unless they can manufacture the blocks in the tower. Of course, the production cost and time of blocks themselves is also an added disadvantage, the time being a particular PITA for those who are now able to just go to a station, buy the fuels they need, and go back to their tower and fuel it... now they'll have to get all the fuels together in one place, start the production, and wait one day or so do do the actual fueling.
It really looks like you only asked 0.0 alliances (or to ONE alliance) before rolling out this. |
ED209X
South Park Development
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 18:49:00 -
[327] - Quote
quote=Chesticular Homicide]Faction fuel pellet blueprints are a terrible idea.
Where would they come from? They wouldn't be BPO's, no faction blueprints are. So, there would end up being a per pellet blueprint cost associated with the pellet, which could end up negating the fuel savings benefit you get from the tower.[/quote]
They would come from the same place all the other BPOs come from. |
C4 985
Space Fiber Weavers
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 18:49:00 -
[328] - Quote
I might have not understood this correctly but this will occupy the manufacturing slots in a station? If so it s***s. |
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative Revival Of The Talocan Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 18:50:00 -
[329] - Quote
faction towers that hold extra fuel are not worth billions. I bought them because i know i would have them for years and theyre savings eventually added up. Getting rid of their fuel savings is just plain bad news. and if you dont change it i cant see anyone spending isk on faction towers post expansion. |
mkint
292
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 18:51:00 -
[330] - Quote
Momoro wrote: How about give the control tower a special manufacturing facility like the Rorqual has? It can only turn PI / ice products into these fuel blocks. If not, then some information about what pos module can make these blocks would be useful.
Beautiful idea. Even better if it doesn't use manufacturing slots, doesn't require blueprints, and engages itself automatically (even if it has a delay between input and output) and uses the fuel bay as input/output. That would make the change a buff to everybody, not a buff to CCP friends and a nerf to everyone else.
That, and removing HW/LO from the pellets (to not totally f*ck up the market with static supply/consumption ratios with no valves to otherwise release the pressure) should be minimum requirements for this to hit TQ.
Seriously, some parts of this are really really badGäó and those parts seem to not be getting as much player attention as they deserve. |
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