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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Ramman K'arojic
Deep Black Industries
2
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:13:00 -
[481] - Quote
George K'ntara wrote:Dear CCP Greyscale,
So you can't make a faction POS use only 75% of a fuel block.
How about having the faction towers use the block for 133% longer instead.
For example[b] a normal tower consumes one block every hour [60 Minutes]. A low grade faction tower consumes one block every 80 minutes. A high grade faction tower consumes one block every 100 minutes.
Is there a reason that wouldn't work? .
This was going to my suggestion.. Bolded the important bits.
The cheaper running costs are why I lashed out for a faction tower. They used to pay for themselfs in about 2 years. Now they never will :(
Ramman |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:15:00 -
[482] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote: Leave POS fuel alone
No don't.
As for you retards complaining about the 'increased cost of liquid ozone and heavy water'. Suck it up and pass the cost onto your end users like everyone else will be doing.
Or you could just mine the ozone yourself, it's free right? |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
778
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:15:00 -
[483] - Quote
nice change!
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Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
28
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:15:00 -
[484] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Remove faction POS from the game completely. Remove SOV from the game completely. as there both effected I'm not sure if you're aware, but they removed the POS requirements for sov in a little patch a few years ago. im not sure if youre aware but having sov gives a 25% fuel reduction to towers anchored in that space. |
Brutus B
Carl Sagan's Planetary Development Foundation Blue Moon Alliance
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:15:00 -
[485] - Quote
GÇ£The one downside of this big-blocks approach is that it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block).GÇ¥ ~CCP
REALLY? REALLY?? People are already complaining about the fuel increases for smallGÇÖs, and a fuelbay increase for factions is going to make up the difference in factions.
The fuel blocks are fine, I like the idea, creating a new niche for specialized industrialist/traders to fill is alright by me.
The failure to see that you ACTUALLY CAN use 2/3 of a block per hour of a block on some things is bad. After all, do all posGÇÖs have to cycle one block per 60minutes? CouldnGÇÖt some burn the block in 70 minutes, or 90 minute spans, or 120 minutes spans instead of just 60? Why not?
When you create a unit like this, to get the same effects of fractions-efficiencies you have to consider playing with the GÇ£cycle time.GÇ¥ Full-disclosure: I donGÇÖt personally operate posGÇÖs, and definitely donGÇÖt spend my eve time fueling them, so I could care less if the costs of operating them goes up or down. IGÇÖve been in corps that use them, but have always trade to keep as much distance between me and pos management as possible!--Just thought IGÇÖd give CCP an affectionate-good-olGÇÖfashion kick-in-the-head for ruling out the possibility of dealing with fuel-costs fraction-efficiencies through making different kinds of posGÇÖs cycle fuel at different burn rates.
O7
(Pretty sure IGÇÖm not the only one that has this idea, but near impossible to read all previous posts when they get to be so many pages long! Plus one support to all previous postings sharing the same or similar idea!)
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Frothgar
V0LTA VOLTA Corp
4
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:17:00 -
[486] - Quote
One of the nice things about PI is it allows you to bring less fuel into a wormhole and fuel many of the components directly off of your PI sites.
I love the ability to keep doing this by manufacturing my own fuel in space using ammunition assembly arrays, any chance we can utilize this feature in other assembly arrays? EG component arrays, small ship, etc?
Edit: perhaps you can preserve the faction tower/sov bonuses by increasing the interval between consumption cycles rather than the amount consumed? |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
100
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:19:00 -
[487] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: One work around - allow the POS owner to set a fee for the use of the JB that scales in the same way that JB fuel usage scales. That would make them a bit more revenue neutral.
may be an idea to avoid some people crushing the ozone stocks for nothing. but i dunno if it would really be used, given the situation ; if you need a friendly fleet to use the, you don't really want them to pay something.
however if some alliances allow neutrals to use the JB... that would be a different matter.
Atropos Kahn wrote: Would like to see something mentioned on unanchoring pos's that have run out of fuel or have been abandoned.... Especially in w-space.. lots of subjects about this, and i would really like an option to take abandonned pos. would be good for exploration gameplay : you could earn money simply by travelling, and finding something, then you ask for reinforcements with the logistics needed, and you earn a few hundred millions of isk. i sometimes probe only by curiosity, to see where i will go, and a reason to do it is missing. the ability to get stuff would be really nice on these situations. |
Pfaeron
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:19:00 -
[488] - Quote
Quote:The way we're strongly advising players to approach this handover is to fill your fuel bays with "half and half" - enough of the old fuel to last you to the changeover downtime and then some (I'd suggest 2-3 days extra just in case something horrible happens), and enough of the new fuel blocks to run the tower until you can fill it with 100% blocks. The server should then come back up after the update, see the new fuel and start consuming that like nothing had happened.
What is this half-and-half stuff? How are we supposed to plan for that? You realize how many towers some of us have to maintain? 25+ towers? Why are you putting in features that cause me more work and not more fun?
I am ok with the feature.. except that you are creating more work with a sloppy roll out.
What you could be doing is changing the system @ the patch time.. in context with what was already there. Making it relatively seamless to the players.
Release the BPO's early so we can get some stockpile.
But the towers should burn only fuel until you are ready to switch over.. and burn only blocks after the switchover. What's this middle-ground stuff about?
When the switchover happens.. during downtime.. calculate information you already know...
For each tower 1) without considering heavy-water/liquid-ozone use.. what is the minimum fuel in the remaining categories in terms of time (hours) is in the tower 2) calculate how many blocks are required for that time (hours * tower-size [Large=4, Medium=2, Small=1) 3) Remove all pos fuel from the tower 4) Add in blocks calculated in step 2 repeat
and the task above is probably just some sql code (that should be tested every which way from sunday before running it)
done.
And in the mean time, while waiting on the switchover.. I can of course imagine that it might be delayed... (naah, that never happens right?) if someone built too many fuel pellets or otherwise is worried about running out of fuel due to such a delay.. they still have the option of refining the fuel pellets they already pre-made (or bought off market) to get more fuel. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
127
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:20:00 -
[489] - Quote
Dex Ironmind wrote:Weaselior wrote:Dex Ironmind wrote:The only people this is really "easier" for are those who simply buy their fuel directly off the market! Am I mistaken?
For everyone else, this actually adds a step to the refuel process, as well as some potential initial logistics (buying BP's and/or installing an ammo array if you don't have one). It doesn't sound like this requires any skills. fueling a tower is shift-dragging your fuel stack onto the tower instead of laborously computing the precise number of eight different fuel types to get a tower max-fueled then moving those fuel types one at a time if you have ever fueled a tower anywhere but in w-space this is a stupendous improvement Fair answer ... thanks. Hadn't thought of it that way. I can get behind that. Still would like to know about the details of the building process. Dex was here.
My guess on the build process, based on my experience building POS arrays (which use many of the same materials) and building stuff at a POS:
Put the components in the hangar, along with the BPO. Click on the BPO, select manufacturing, do normal job install.
Also Im sure the materials to make the fuel blocks will be listed on the BPO as "extra materials needed" which cannot be reduced via research.
As for convenience, I got this spreadsheet in which I enter what fuel is in the POS, what is in storage, and how many days I want to fuel to. It tells me what to buy and the total volume of the purchase. I adjust the days until the volume matches that of my hauler, and I got a shopping list.
Its a bit of a pain. After this change the shopping list will always be the same. No need to do the inventory, no need for the spreadsheet. Just buy what we cannot make via PI, drop it in the ammo array, run the job. Having to do the manufacturing is an extra step, but it will be faster then doing the inventory.
CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
127
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:20:00 -
[490] - Quote
"we were ganked" double post. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
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Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
69
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:23:00 -
[491] - Quote
I'm not sure if this has been answered, but two questions;
1) where will the BPO's be availiable from? (the Blog mentions Thukker Mix and just Thukker Mix, surely not for all 4 racial types?) 2) Am I right in assuming that the ME is not researchable to improve the BPO's, or are the quoted numbers the 'perfect' build cost? http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:24:00 -
[492] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:2) Am I right in assuming that the ME is not researchable to improve the BPO's, or are the quoted numbers the 'perfect' build cost?
ME already only matters for minerals. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
6
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:27:00 -
[493] - Quote
"We didn't do this ages ago because I couldn't see a good way to handle the handover until someone pointed out the (obvious) half-and-half solution, at which point I punched myself in the head for not seeing that earlier"
Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
302
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:29:00 -
[494] - Quote
Pfaeron wrote:Quote:The way we're strongly advising players to approach this handover is to fill your fuel bays with "half and half" - enough of the old fuel to last you to the changeover downtime and then some (I'd suggest 2-3 days extra just in case something horrible happens), and enough of the new fuel blocks to run the tower until you can fill it with 100% blocks. The server should then come back up after the update, see the new fuel and start consuming that like nothing had happened. What is this half-and-half stuff? How are we supposed to plan for that? You realize how many towers some of us have to maintain? 25+ towers?
The simple answer to the "half-and-half".
In the week leading up to the change-over, you put 7 days worth of fuel pellets into the fuel bay and just fill the rest of the fuel bay like normal. Then, within seven days after the change-over, you go out with another 21 days worth of fuel pellets, swap out the old style fuel and fill it with the new fuel pellets.
Not very complex concept - except that you'll have to haul fuel twice that month instead of just once. After which, you gain the advantages of the new fuel pellet system.
(Or you could go with 10-days of new pellets and the rest as old-style fuel, if you want a slightly larger margin of error after the change-over date.) |
Dr Mercy
EC Riders Mech Alliance
22
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:30:00 -
[495] - Quote
Probably already mentioned, but there is an easy solution to the faction tower and sov bonus fuel reduction:
Pellet BPC produces 4x as many pellets as currently planned (Input cost remains the same. Pellet size 4x smaller) Non-faction tower fuel usage get 4x bigger to 4/8/16 pellets per hour (small/med/large)
Now you can take into account 25% and 50% reductions.
(If I have a figure wrong here, feel free to adjust the multiplier.)
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Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:31:00 -
[496] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Remove faction POS from the game completely. Remove SOV from the game completely. as there both effected I'm not sure if you're aware, but they removed the POS requirements for sov in a little patch a few years ago. im not sure if youre aware but having sov gives a 25% fuel reduction to towers anchored in that space.
No, I am aware of that but I'm not sure why he thinks that is somehow a reason to 'remove sov'. I don't think there's really any good reason why sov should grant fuel reductions in the first place. |
Pfaeron
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:32:00 -
[497] - Quote
You are presuming that the patch happens on time and on schedule.
my proposal works regardless of when they switchover happens.. if its delayed.. no problem. if you happen to be in Cancun during the week they want to do the switchover and fueled your towers for 27 days to compensate for that.. still .. no problem.
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Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
134
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:34:00 -
[498] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Sigras wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Remove faction POS from the game completely. Remove SOV from the game completely. as there both effected I'm not sure if you're aware, but they removed the POS requirements for sov in a little patch a few years ago. im not sure if youre aware but having sov gives a 25% fuel reduction to towers anchored in that space. No, I am aware of that but I'm not sure why he thinks that is somehow a reason to 'remove sov'. I don't think there's really any good reason why sov should grant fuel reductions in the first place.
same reason as you seam to think this is a reason to remove faction pos's and the small advantage they give CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:35:00 -
[499] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:"We didn't do this ages ago because I couldn't see a good way to handle the handover until someone pointed out the (obvious) half-and-half solution, at which point I punched myself in the head for not seeing that earlier"
Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers.
How is it even remotely superior? You're whining about losing sov and faction tower bonuses when the reality is those things do not matter.
This reduces logistical workload (important if you have a lot of pos) and adds a new product that people can manufacture for profit or if you are someone who likes to run things end to end, you can turn your PI products into blocks for more profit (not a bad thing). |
Rafe Vatta
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
1
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:36:00 -
[500] - Quote
Cool!
Be nice to keep the reduced fuel costs available, but cool regardless. |
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Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:37:00 -
[501] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:same reason as you seam to think this is a reason to remove faction pos's and the small advantage they give
Well, that's the thing - I am perfectly happy with all the changes proposed to faction towers as I [like every other businessman with even a slight bit of sense] will just pass on the fuel costs to my consumers and will revel in the larger fuel bays (which mean less work for me personally.) |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
134
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:39:00 -
[502] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:AkJon Ferguson wrote:"We didn't do this ages ago because I couldn't see a good way to handle the handover until someone pointed out the (obvious) half-and-half solution, at which point I punched myself in the head for not seeing that earlier"
Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers. How is it even remotely superior? You're whining about losing sov and faction tower bonuses when the reality is those things do not matter. This reduces logistical workload (important if you have a lot of pos) and adds a new product that people can manufacture for profit or if you are someone who likes to run things end to end, you can turn your PI products into blocks for more profit (not a bad thing).
as far as i can tell, you haul as much to the pos. so thats the same as now, you just have to manufature the blocks(if you have stocks of pos fuels) and it costs more to run pos's in sov systems, regardless if they are faction or not, also the same towers in sov system require more fuel and more hauling. and thats an improvment? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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Davzarek
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:39:00 -
[503] - Quote
Entity said it all:
Quote: NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
The benefit of faction towers is two-fold: - Longer run time before refuel - Lower cost per period
You're basically removing the cost benefit.
Better solution: Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.
Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.
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Pfaeron
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:41:00 -
[504] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote: How is it even remotely superior? You're whining about losing sov and faction tower bonuses when the reality is those things do not matter.
This reduces logistical workload (important if you have a lot of pos) and adds a new product that people can manufacture for profit or if you are someone who likes to run things end to end, you can turn your PI products into blocks for more profit (not a bad thing).
Actually the sov and faction tower fuel use is a huge deal. Unfortunately faction tower blueprints (or any other tower module) have not been dropping in exploration sites and such since CCP changed tower/module bpc's to use PI material. Oversight? Screwup? Conspiracy? Dunno.. but they haven't been dropping since
Thus.. the price of such towers has soared through the roof since each time one is destroyed, the overall supply is diminished permanently.
If the prices had not soured like they did.. people in 0.0 space at the least, should be upgrading all towers to faction towers because as income allows.. since at the price they used to be.. 1B for large towers... they would pay for themselves from less fuel use in less than a year.
The prices they are at now.. not worth it.
So.. lets review... faction towers are very worthwhile both from their extra fitting/shield/resistances or whatever but also because of their reduced fuel use and shorter anchor time. Except CCP screwed up the game and they no longer drop anymore.
Savvy?
And now... under the new plan.. even if CCP were to fix the faction tower blueprint drops so they were in the game again, the market demand would be less since they no longer are as appeaing for their 25% fuel bonus. O well.
So that interaction between 0.0 purchasers and explorers loot.... gone.. Is the game better for it? I personally don't think so. |
CommanderData211
KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
1
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:41:00 -
[505] - Quote
I tried to go through all 25 pages so pardon me if this was mentioned before, but something that would help any POS user out is the ability to access onlined structures out to 5 kM instead of 2.5.
Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top. Wait this is CCP. Pretty pretty please with a large bottle of booze on top! |
Serenity 159080
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:42:00 -
[506] - Quote
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote: Go fist yourself greyscale
CCP lost touch with the fan base, that is their fault.
But our fault is driving them away.
Can you blame CCP for not communicating with the players if this is what they encounter day after day? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
90
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:44:00 -
[507] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:"Could you please punch yourself in the head again until it dawns on you that the current POS Fuel mechanic is vastly superior to the one you're proposing to implement? I'm sure if your arm begins to tire or your hand gets sore that you could recruit some volunteers.
What are you smoking? Current refueling process:
- Go to fuel stash.
- For each tower you have to refuel, look up fuel needs on POS manager.
- Shift-drag each of the 8 fuels into your cargo, copy number from POS manager into the text box.
- If your cargo is full, remember how much you got and how much you still need.
- Go to tower and drop fuel.
- Repeat for next tower. Make sure you havent mixed up your towers.
New refuelling process:
- Go to fuel stash.
- Fill cargo with fuel.
- Warp to tower, fill bay with fuel.
- If cargo empty, go grab more fuel.
- Stop when all towers have full bays.
Now, which one is simpler, less boring, less prone to mistakes? |
baker43
Aperture Harmonics K162
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:44:00 -
[508] - Quote
Agree!
Entity said it all:
Quote: NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
The benefit of faction towers is two-fold: - Longer run time before refuel - Lower cost per period
You're basically removing the cost benefit.
Better solution: Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.
Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.
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Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
100
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:44:00 -
[509] - Quote
CommanderData211 wrote:I tried to go through all 25 pages so pardon me if this was mentioned before, but something that would help any POS user out is the ability to access onlined structures out to 5 kM instead of 2.5.
Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top. Wait this is CCP. Pretty pretty please with a large bottle of booze on top! oh god yeah, forgot about this |
Thomas Merrilin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.07 22:44:00 -
[510] - Quote
What I can't understand is why we haven't gone for a simpler scaling of POS use by the time taken to consume blocks:
Small Tower = 60 minutes / block Medium Tower = 30 minutes / block Large Tower = 15 minutes / block
Faction Tier 1 = 18 minutes / block (this is 80 blocks per day) Faction Tier 2 = 24 minutes / block (this is 60 blocker per day)
So basically this is no change a all from the proposals but retains the Faction bonus.
In the words of a meer cat... "simple" |
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