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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6676
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:18:00 -
[121] - Quote
Orion Guardian wrote:Weaselior wrote:Orion Guardian wrote:[think about how easy it is to buy minerals in Highsec and how unlikely it is to have the same amount or ore bought....] and now this will change, obviously think a little more I did, and yes it will change, but seeing the high Mineral consumption in Highsec I am not sure it will change much. Unless I am missing the point: Nullsec is not the biggest user of Minerals in itself (most of it is build in Highsec after all). So the Minerals are needed there as well. So if the stuff is left as ore to be exported to nullsec it is missing as potential quick sold stock in high. It gets alot more complex and the missing part of converting minerals back into a compressed state (The compressed ore -> Mineral side is quite easy, the backward-reaction that used to be Module compression is negated.) The economic system will adapt, but like a chemical reaction: If the backward path is completely blocked there are consequences far greater than just "tweaking the system" i'm going to put up buy orders for compressed ore and pubbies will fill them, because the ore is worth 14.4% more to me than them
the way they get the MOST money is to compress it, or sell it to someone who will compress it
you're fixated on compressing minerals instead of buying pre-compressed ore Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Reizak StormFury
Engineering Evolutions Limited Gatekeepers Universe
18
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:22:00 -
[122] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Orion Guardian wrote:Weaselior wrote:Orion Guardian wrote:[think about how easy it is to buy minerals in Highsec and how unlikely it is to have the same amount or ore bought....] and now this will change, obviously think a little more I did, and yes it will change, but seeing the high Mineral consumption in Highsec I am not sure it will change much. Unless I am missing the point: Nullsec is not the biggest user of Minerals in itself (most of it is build in Highsec after all). So the Minerals are needed there as well. So if the stuff is left as ore to be exported to nullsec it is missing as potential quick sold stock in high. It gets alot more complex and the missing part of converting minerals back into a compressed state (The compressed ore -> Mineral side is quite easy, the backward-reaction that used to be Module compression is negated.) The economic system will adapt, but like a chemical reaction: If the backward path is completely blocked there are consequences far greater than just "tweaking the system" i'm going to put up buy orders for compressed ore and pubbies will fill them, because the ore is worth 14.4% more to me than them the way they get the MOST money is to compress it, or sell it to someone who will compress it you're fixated on compressing minerals instead of buying pre-compressed ore
Exactly this, which is a move in the right direction IMHO.
The whole "you don't need skills if you have a POS" thing vexes me no end though. |
Dracnys
59
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:22:00 -
[123] - Quote
Looks interesting. Let's see how this changes industry. I think many solo highsec miners won't be able to get acceptable refinery rates now. There may be a new market for unrefined ore and a profit for people with the rights skills. Overall I predict that mineral prices will go up by a bit.
While you're at it: Could you do a simple fix to POS manufacturing arrays? It's driving me nuts getting just the right ratio of minerals into their super small cargo bays. I would really like to use them but as things stand manufacturing in NPC stations is just the only way to go. So how about just doubling (at least) their cargo capacity? If that means they become better than hangars just increase their fitting requirements/split them into a small version and a large one with different cargo capacities and fittings reqs.
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Warcalibre
Manu Fortius space weaponry and trade
109
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:22:00 -
[124] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Quote:Any item not part of the two categories mentioned earlier (like ships and modules) will only be affected by the Scrapmetal Processing skil so please disconnect the scrapmetal skill from the other dependencies. New players should not have to waste SP on ore reprocessing skills to be able rise efficiency of module reprocessing.
Please this. |
JackEuchre
Order Collective The Obsidian Front
17
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:23:00 -
[125] - Quote
Was it CCP's oversite or intent to make the Rorq completley useless? Compression with a Rorq requires Heavy Water and lots of time. Compression at the new POS module does not require Heavy water and is instant. Chances are the compression pos module well be MUCH cheaper than a rorq. Why on earth would anyone use a Rorq? |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
343
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:23:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:I might have missed it, but do starbase refining arrays now take skills into consideration? Not for now, but they have been changed in such a way they give you 52 / 54% yield reprocess as if you had perfect skills, so that is a huge incentive to use them if you don't have all skills / implants trained. Ice will also be affected by it (no more 100% reprocess for ice in Starbase Reprocessing Arrays). This may change later on though. With the cost to operate and risk involved in using starbase refining arrays 52/54% seems a little low, I would think the optimal refining should need to be performed at player controlled structures and not NPC stations. This. Very much this. (I'm pretty certain this was talked about at the CSM9 industry panel that should be going up on Declarations of war (.com) soon) There was a discussion on whereas player Outposts or Starbase Reprocessing Arrays should come out on top of the reprocessing race - so far we prefer Outpost to have the better rates since it's significantly more expensive to fully upgrade a Minmatar outpost to the last improvement. But in all cases, Starbase Reprocessing Arrays are better than NPC stations. As mentioned before, we have authored the Starbase Reprocessing Array as if you had perfect skills; so in reality they give you a 75.3% and 78.1% reprocesing rate.
This makes implants only good for high sec. Why aren't they being taken into account here?
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Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
265
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:23:00 -
[127] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.
Transmogrify?
I jest, I jest. |
Centurax
Eve Engineering Authority Eve Engineering
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:24:00 -
[128] - Quote
Some very useful changes, looking forward to them.
However,
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Not for now, but they have been changed in such a way they give you 52 / 54% yield reprocess as if you had perfect skills, so that is a huge incentive to use them if you don't have all skills / implants trained. Ice will also be affected by it (no more 100% reprocess for ice in Starbase Reprocessing Arrays).
This may change later on though.
I hope I am just misinterpreting this but, if you are not planning to add player skills to the reprocessing on Starbases then pleae reconsider that a bit more closely. It would be good to keep these arrays competitive with stations especially in high sec space where players spend time to generate standings to deploy moon and this could then, giving competitive reprocessing would be a good bonus to the time taken to do this. However using skills to boost Reprocessing on the Starbases would being all areas of space, and make us want to use the Reprocessing arrays, instead of compression it all and hauling it to a station where we can get a good refine which frankly would be a stupid approach since you are putting a lot of work into this.
If they even had a lower reprocessing yield to make them less competitive at the start would be a compromise, but having had to live with the unforgivable Refining arrays all this time, to take the improvement so far only to stop short of a usable solution is a little annoying. |
Wylt Echerie
Conqueror Worm Limited
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:24:00 -
[129] - Quote
I don't really do much mining/industry type stuff but most of this sounds pretty reasonable. The whole ore compression via module manufacturing always seemed awkward and a bit unwieldy. Being able to accomplish the same thing just via straight ore compression seems to make alot more sense. Being able to max out your efficiency with less then maxed skills seemed strange.
Juliette Asanari wrote:Aside from other effects mentioned in this thread, the price of a lot of meta 1->3 items is going to plumet, since their value is mostly derived from their reprocessed materials. Any hike in mineral prices is very unlikely to compensate for a 45-50% loss in minerals, since the size of that mineral hike is very dependend on the amount of minerals injected into the mineral market via module repro vs. the amount injected via mining.
However tthis is the one thing that jumped out at me as being an issue. While it doesn't affect my current isk-generating activities, in the past collecting loot drops and selling them comprised a decent portion of my income. I don't know the exact amounts but I can remember that a significant portion of that income came from modules that were only valuable due to the mineral content. In my eyes the proposed drop in value of these items seems too high and impacts lower-income newer players especially. |
Galia Goodbody
Astral Sanctuary - 7th Division
1
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:24:00 -
[130] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Any highsec miner whines that CCP is nerfing you, I'm siccing Miniluv on you.
Now, that makes the discussion fair and balanced. |
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Paul Otichoda
Mine Your 0wn Business Brothers of Tangra
210
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:24:00 -
[131] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Unable to refine ore for profit?
Sell it, so someone else refines it.
Where's it written that Miners have to be the ones who refine ore? Especially newbie miners?
one problem with that, generally I found that most ore buy orders were set about 10% below the regular market price for the ore while the minerals were generally much closer to the market value. There is nothing to stop a new syndicate forming that only buys ore at massively reduced price and then forcing the market price for the minerals up
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Tarikla
Projet Aurora
35
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:27:00 -
[132] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:You've made a mistake, here: Quote:As such, to keep ratio fairly identical, we are going to boost all minerals and ice products gained by reprocessing ores and ices approximately by 38.1% (1/0.724). This will apply to all the unrefined alchemy material as well. Because alchemy uses scrapmetal which is getting nerfed, you need to boost it by its own percentage (instead of the ore percentage) to get it back to where it is now.
Upping this. CCP, you either need to consider alchemy an ore (heck, give it his own refining skill !) or boost MORE alchemy reaction for unrefined products.
Otherwise you are NERFING alchemy reaction straight away. Oh, and yes, you are upping alchemy in 0.0 sov too. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6676
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:27:00 -
[133] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Unable to refine ore for profit?
Sell it, so someone else refines it.
Where's it written that Miners have to be the ones who refine ore? Especially newbie miners? one problem with that, generally I found that most ore buy orders were set about 10% below the regular market price for the ore while the minerals were generally much closer to the market value. There is nothing to stop a new syndicate forming that only buys ore at massively reduced price and then forcing the market price for the minerals up currently, only idiots sell ore because it's so trivial to get 100% refines in highsec, so the ore buy orders have an idiot tax in
it'll narrow Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
287
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:28:00 -
[134] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Unable to refine ore for profit?
Sell it, so someone else refines it.
Where's it written that Miners have to be the ones who refine ore? Especially newbie miners? one problem with that, generally I found that most ore buy orders were set about 10% below the regular market price for the ore while the minerals were generally much closer to the market value. There is nothing to stop a new syndicate forming that only buys ore at massively reduced price and then forcing the market price for the minerals up
I would gladly take part in this syndicate, just to punish all the supporters of this change. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3227
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:29:00 -
[135] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:Weaselior wrote:You've made a mistake, here: Quote:As such, to keep ratio fairly identical, we are going to boost all minerals and ice products gained by reprocessing ores and ices approximately by 38.1% (1/0.724). This will apply to all the unrefined alchemy material as well. Because alchemy uses scrapmetal which is getting nerfed, you need to boost it by its own percentage (instead of the ore percentage) to get it back to where it is now. Upping this. CCP, you either need to consider alchemy an ore (heck, give it his own refining skill !) or boost MORE alchemy reaction for unrefined products. Otherwise you are NERFING alchemy reaction straight away. Oh, and yes, you are upping alchemy in 0.0 sov too.
Indeed, point noted, we'll have a look into that one. |
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Paul Otichoda
Mine Your 0wn Business Brothers of Tangra
210
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:29:00 -
[136] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Unable to refine ore for profit?
Sell it, so someone else refines it.
Where's it written that Miners have to be the ones who refine ore? Especially newbie miners? one problem with that, generally I found that most ore buy orders were set about 10% below the regular market price for the ore while the minerals were generally much closer to the market value. There is nothing to stop a new syndicate forming that only buys ore at massively reduced price and then forcing the market price for the minerals up currently, only idiots sell ore because it's so trivial to get 100% refines in highsec, so the ore buy orders have an idiot tax in it'll narrow
you sure?
I seem to remember all the trouble we had with the high sec POCOs
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Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
589
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:31:00 -
[137] - Quote
JackEuchre wrote:Was it CCP's oversite or intent to make the Rorq completley useless? Compression with a Rorq requires Heavy Water and lots of time. Compression at the new POS module does not require Heavy water and is instant. Chances are the compression pos module well be MUCH cheaper than a rorq. Why on earth would anyone use a Rorq? The rorqual is now instant as well. No idea about fuel use but keep in mind poses use fuel as well and they do it even when you're not compressing stuff ;)
Coreli Corporation: Small gang PVP & Drug Production, Apply now! |
Valterra Craven
157
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:33:00 -
[138] - Quote
I've been reading through this thread and what I'm not seeing a lot of people comment on is loot reprocs.
I'm sure CCP has access to the amount of minerals that are currently being added to the market through this sort of mining, but I without knowing how much are coming from this method, its going to be pretty hard to fathom just how badly this is going to affect the market. If people were to stop refining all modules for mins that are dropped as loot, this could have a huge affect on the mineral market and having prices going up a good bit.
As another poster said, this is also going to drastically decrease the price for some meta modules (ex: smartbombs that are otherwise valueless). I think people are worried about the wrong thing here (ie minerals from ore) as what CCP has shown is that despite these changes that profession is going to basically stay the same.
I'm just not sure what the point of introducing something like the MTU was if they were going to make looting not profitable, or not worth the time... |
Rola Lennt
WelTraum Corp
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:33:00 -
[139] - Quote
yey industry revamp yey lowsec cap building nerf
why do i play this game .. |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:33:00 -
[140] - Quote
I see no mention of NPC station refining efficiency, wouldn't this be a good time to change the bizarre association of Refining Effiiciency to Stations/Corporations
i.e. Yuzier III - Nefantar Miner Association Mining Outpost gets 32% vs Sooma X - CONCORD Academy - 50%
For some bizarre reason stations associated with NPC mining corporations or heavy industry have terrible yields, despite Reprocessing being quite important to their business. Meanwhile military installations seem to be gifted the best reprocessing yields.
This is utterly bizarre and should be fixed while you're doing this. |
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JackEuchre
Order Collective The Obsidian Front
18
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:34:00 -
[141] - Quote
Joshua Foiritain wrote:JackEuchre wrote:Was it CCP's oversite or intent to make the Rorq completley useless? Compression with a Rorq requires Heavy Water and lots of time. Compression at the new POS module does not require Heavy water and is instant. Chances are the compression pos module well be MUCH cheaper than a rorq. Why on earth would anyone use a Rorq? The rorqual is now instant as well. No idea about fuel use but keep in mind poses use fuel as well and they do it even when you're not compressing stuff ;) Anyhow; CCP Ytterbium, can we pretty please get gas compression as well?
yes, but who uses a Rorq to compres (you have to seige) outside a POS? So you still need a POS....might as well have the module that takes 10 seconds to online.
EDIT: where did it say Rorq was instant? I missed that. |
Qalix
Long Jump.
177
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:35:00 -
[142] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:I would like their to be some static structures similar to POCO's that are owned by players in space near planets or something that can offer exceptional reprocessing efficiency but taxed by the owner.
Obviously, Hi sec would offer a small benefit. Low sec a really good benefit and null sect the best benefit.
Would drive conflict as people would like to have their own refineries in busy systems where volume of ore refined would be high. Gee, Mom and Dad, thanks for buying me this new Toyota for Christmas. Now, where's my Ferrari? |
Orion Guardian
201
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:37:00 -
[143] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Orion Guardian wrote:Weaselior wrote:Orion Guardian wrote:[think about how easy it is to buy minerals in Highsec and how unlikely it is to have the same amount or ore bought....] and now this will change, obviously think a little more I did, and yes it will change, but seeing the high Mineral consumption in Highsec I am not sure it will change much. Unless I am missing the point: Nullsec is not the biggest user of Minerals in itself (most of it is build in Highsec after all). So the Minerals are needed there as well. So if the stuff is left as ore to be exported to nullsec it is missing as potential quick sold stock in high. It gets alot more complex and the missing part of converting minerals back into a compressed state (The compressed ore -> Mineral side is quite easy, the backward-reaction that used to be Module compression is negated.) The economic system will adapt, but like a chemical reaction: If the backward path is completely blocked there are consequences far greater than just "tweaking the system" i'm going to put up buy orders for compressed ore and pubbies will fill them, because the ore is worth 14.4% more to me than them the way they get the MOST money is to compress it, or sell it to someone who will compress it you're fixated on compressing minerals instead of buying pre-compressed ore
I can see were you are coming from, but maybe I was not being that clear. I am looking at the whole process like I would see a chemical reaction. Nowadays ore is either refined directly or bought be refiners and the resulting minerals are then bought be droves of manufacturers. The Manufactures have to compete between themselves to get enough minerals to build their stuff. A simple a -> b -> c+d+e+f+g+h.... reaction where each product c till whatever has a chance to be "build" depending on how successful the manufaturer "reaction"
[Where a is the ore, b are minerals, c+d+e is nullsec manufactured and f+g+h etc is highsec]
#The way I see it in the future, one part of the manufacturers will be a side reaction, they buy the ore instead and have to compete with those who refined themselves or buy to refine to sell to the manufacturers. They are STILL competing with the manufacturing needs of the Highsec but at the same time they have to compete with the refinery side as well. And to make matters worse they cannot even use BOTH they have to buy the ore (or compressed or) and have no real way to use the minerals, so you get
a -> b + c+d+e b -> f+g+h....
[And as b is used up by the "follow up" reaction the corresponding 'reaction speed" is increased so alot more b is created than c+d+e because it is used fast]
So depending on the surrounding it either shafts f till whatever because they cannot get enough of b, or it shafts c+d+e because they have to compete with every manufacturer they competed with before (remotely because driving the incentive to reprocess the ore) AND with the reprocessers as well.
Yes the potential 13% more reprocessing yield in nullsec can offset that, but the opportunity cost and the logistical cost of compressing and moving the minerals can negate that. You will have to run a POS, pay fuel, pay compression fuel, use time etc to compress the ore and then use fuel, time etc to move it to nullsec (some of those costs already exist with compressed minerals, but the added competition is new) so this 13% more can melt easily.
So, that was my train of thought, maybe I am wrong and the comparism is unadequate but it makes sense in my mind. |
Qalix
Long Jump.
177
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:37:00 -
[144] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.
Why not just "Processing"? |
Opner Dresden
Lugus Foundry The Serenity Initiative
0
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:37:00 -
[145] - Quote
I don't get how CCP can take industry, especially low/null industry, and just give it a clean across the board nerf. Not mining, mining gets a minor nerf... but industry... just got a swift kick in the balls and more hoops to jump through. So for any sizable project, not only do we get massive spreadsheets to do the actual build, sourcing materials gets one as well, since finding the right minerals in the ore compositions is going to be a pain. Or we can do it ourselves, and run another POS (yes, just what I wanted to do, and in HS no less) and haul the heaviest stuff in eve all around in pitiful amounts.
And if you're goal was to make rorqual compression more useful, you failed, miserably. |
Valterra Craven
158
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:38:00 -
[146] - Quote
Illectroculus Defined wrote:I see no mention of NPC station refining efficiency, wouldn't this be a good time to change the bizarre association of Refining Effiiciency to Stations/Corporations
i.e. Yuzier III - Nefantar Miner Association Mining Outpost gets 32% vs Sooma X - CONCORD Academy - 50%
For some bizarre reason stations associated with NPC mining corporations or heavy industry have terrible yields, despite Reprocessing being quite important to their business. Meanwhile military installations seem to be gifted the best reprocessing yields.
This is utterly bizarre and should be fixed while you're doing this.
I agree, Poksu is another example of this. Genolution gets better refines in a system than Poksu... WTF? |
Helavus
Vivicide The Kadeshi
6
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:38:00 -
[147] - Quote
Congrats CCP you just f***ed the titan builders, i would hazard a guess that 70% of titans are built with compression. Now it requires 3 x more work.
Its a good way to reduce the numbers of titans being built, it also means that if anyone wants one they will likely have to pay upwards of 150 bill.
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Kym Sorenson
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:38:00 -
[148] - Quote
What a terrible change for legitimate salvager/reprocessor folks- a new max yield of 55%is a huge hit to those folks, and they spend a long time training scrapmetal processing in the first place. Why can't CCP tweak a POS module to let it reprocess loot at a player's maximum skill? I see the desire to nerf module compression, but there is a huge amount of collateral damage done with these changes to folks who don't compress minerals but do loot and salvage wrecks. |
Centurax
Eve Engineering Authority Eve Engineering
47
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Posted - 2014.03.20 16:40:00 -
[149] - Quote
JackEuchre wrote:Joshua Foiritain wrote:JackEuchre wrote:Was it CCP's oversite or intent to make the Rorq completley useless? Compression with a Rorq requires Heavy Water and lots of time. Compression at the new POS module does not require Heavy water and is instant. Chances are the compression pos module well be MUCH cheaper than a rorq. Why on earth would anyone use a Rorq? The rorqual is now instant as well. No idea about fuel use but keep in mind poses use fuel as well and they do it even when you're not compressing stuff ;) Anyhow; CCP Ytterbium, can we pretty please get gas compression as well? yes, but who uses a Rorq to compres (you have to seige) outside a POS? So you still need a POS....might as well have the module that takes 10 seconds to online. EDIT: where did it say Rorq was instant? I missed that.
Rorq sits inside the POS shield to Compress, but it will be 2bil isk cheaper to do so after the expansion with an array. Good for WH space, unless you really want the mining boosts from the rorq as well. |
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
590
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 16:40:00 -
[150] - Quote
Helavus wrote:Congrats CCP you just f***ed the titan builders, i would hazard a guess that 70% of titans are built with compression. Now it requires 3 x more work.
Its a good way to reduce the numbers of titans being built, it also means that if anyone wants one they will likely have to pay upwards of 150 bill.
Thats actually a good thing. Less titans = better eve
Coreli Corporation: Small gang PVP & Drug Production, Apply now! |
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