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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:12:00 -
[451] - Quote
Kiere Padecain wrote:You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.
Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed.
So that means people can launch a PoS in highsec using standing boosters, and by that get refinery without any skilltime spent at all.
Guess we'll see that rise of hundreds of refinery corps, only there to hold a highsec PoS to refine in.
Skills should affect the PoS refinery just like anywhere else, making PoS refineries still useful, even though STILL requiring the training time to do so. Exactly ^^
CCP need to make POS modules require skills.
Also why not buff some of the low sec and null sec NPC station so they give a base refine of around 55%. Then low would finally have some relevance. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6705
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:13:00 -
[452] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: You don't take more risks. that's the entire problem with your believes.
then surely you can compete just as easily with us by coming out to 0.0 Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Krom Thomson
Dark Neutron Star Metatron Inc. Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:13:00 -
[453] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:baltec1 wrote:Rukoro Okagima wrote:Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise Buff to miners. well, kinda... Mining can be done afk meaning that it can potentially be botted (sorry, no method of bot detection short of full system analysis is full-proof). Because it can be botted, making it more profitable can produce more bots doing it. If you want to see a real buff to mining as a profession, they need to change how mining is done in the same way that hacking was changed to be more interactive. I'm not saying add a click fest... I want to see something done for mining that rewards being at the keyboard with more ore and fun. This would also make botting more difficult (or at the very least more complex - interactive can be tough) which means more value added to the real miners. that i agree with 100% but miners have been asking for a more interesting way to mine |
TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
482
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:15:00 -
[454] - Quote
Sany Saccante wrote:Any chance to add mineral compression?
It could solve problem with moving minerals to null.
I get a feeling part of this change is to encourage local industry in null sec blocs. What is happening right now is that there are insanely huge power blocks that have 90% of their production in high sec or are relying on imported minerals to build stuff locally. Entire Titan fleets being built with minerals that were mined in a 1.0 system while the rock fields in the systems the Titans are being built are untouched. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. As such, mineral compression as a mechanic is probably being left out very much on purpose. Just like loot reprocessing is being nerfed to **** for the same reason. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
MicDeath Titan
Titans Guild Solitude Coalition
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:15:00 -
[455] - Quote
Since my thread was locked, and directed here, here it is.
As a Rorqual Pilot I have to say this dev blog pissed me the right fk off! Seriously? WTF CCP?!? A pos module that not only can be used ANYWHERE(that means highsec bucko!), but it also has 20 bloody fking MILLION cargo space, AND is instant? guys.... Guys... GUYS!!! You are giving the power of EIGHTY RORQUALS into a SINGLE POS MODULE, and at a cost probably FAR FAR cheaper than a Rorqual to boot.
Seriously... either nerf this mod down to reality or give the Rorqual a buff to make them more worthwhile to use than the pos module, because as it stands, this pos module just nuked the Rorqual out of a job.
ok, got that out of my system. Here is what I think about the rest of the blog though. [img]http://upload.linkswarm.com/i/sunny77/boner0Yw.gif[/img] ^Probably NSFW |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10467
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:15:00 -
[456] - Quote
Krom Thomson wrote: you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks
Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety.
Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10468
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:16:00 -
[457] - Quote
MicDeath Titan wrote:Since my thread was locked, and directed here, here it is.
As a Rorqual Pilot I have to say this dev blog pissed me the right fk off! Seriously? WTF CCP?!? A pos module that not only can be used ANYWHERE(that means highsec bucko!), but it also has 20 bloody fking MILLION cargo space, AND is instant? guys.... Guys... GUYS!!! You are giving the power of EIGHTY RORQUALS into a SINGLE POS MODULE, and at a cost probably FAR FAR cheaper than a Rorqual to boot.
Seriously... either nerf this mod down to reality or give the Rorqual a buff to make them more worthwhile to use than the pos module, because as it stands, this pos module just nuked the Rorqual out of a job.
ok, got that out of my system. Here is what I think about the rest of the blog though. [img]http://upload.linkswarm.com/i/sunny77/boner0Yw.gif[/img] ^Probably NSFW
The rorqual is getting rebalanced at a later date. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions Vanguard.
90
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:16:00 -
[458] - Quote
Krom Thomson wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:baltec1 wrote:Rukoro Okagima wrote:Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise Buff to miners. well, kinda... Mining can be done afk meaning that it can potentially be botted (sorry, no method of bot detection short of full system analysis is full-proof). Because it can be botted, making it more profitable can produce more bots doing it. If you want to see a real buff to mining as a profession, they need to change how mining is done in the same way that hacking was changed to be more interactive. I'm not saying add a click fest... I want to see something done for mining that rewards being at the keyboard with more ore and fun. This would also make botting more difficult (or at the very least more complex - interactive can be tough) which means more value added to the real miners. that i agree with 100% but miners have been asking for a more interesting way to mine
I am one of those miners. CCP, please make mining something I can't do while blackout drunk, and I might actually put my perfect mining/refining skills to proper use.
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Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking Brave Collective
76
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:19:00 -
[459] - Quote
Querns wrote:Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:Querns wrote:Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:Emilia Istis wrote:as you know there is a little veldspar in null Have you ever even been in a null belt? Also because of people saying **** like this null ores were jammed full of low-ends, so cram it. The reason asteroids are so large in nullsec belts is because no one mines them. If for some ungodly reason you were daft enough to actually mine a regular asteroid belt over a mining anomaly (or perhaps as a function of bootstrapping an industrial index,) you would quickly exhaust the inflated asteroid, and it would return to regenerating at the normal rate. So what are we talking about here? In the situation that null miners were not feeling that they were too good or too chicken **** to mine a belt, it would be the same as high? God forbid. Well, aside from the exact asteroid types, yeah. Nearly all the ore mining that goes on in nullsec is done in upgraded systems and in mining anomalies spawned as a function of those upgrades. So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.
"Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:21:00 -
[460] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Sany Saccante wrote:Any chance to add mineral compression?
It could solve problem with moving minerals to null. I get a feeling part of this change is to encourage local industry in null sec blocs. What is happening right now is that there are insanely huge power blocks that have 90% of their production in high sec or are relying on imported minerals to build stuff locally. Entire Titan fleets being built with minerals that were mined in a 1.0 system while the rock fields in the systems the Titans are being built are untouched. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. As such, mineral compression as a mechanic is probably being left out very much on purpose. Just like loot reprocessing is being nerfed to **** for the same reason.
This is indeed the problem. So why can't the null sec power blocks HTFU and provide security for a mining operation in their systems? Or is it easier just to elect one of your ranks to the CSM and have that person fly to Iceland to cry all over the conference room table until you get what you want? |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10468
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:21:00 -
[461] - Quote
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote: So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.
Why would we?
High sec offers the exact same but with all the benefits of high sec safety. Why would we take the extra risk for no reward? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:23:00 -
[462] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Krom Thomson wrote: you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks
Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety. Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals.
More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it. |
Krom Thomson
Dark Neutron Star Metatron Inc. Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:23:00 -
[463] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:TigerXtrm wrote:Sany Saccante wrote:Any chance to add mineral compression?
It could solve problem with moving minerals to null. I get a feeling part of this change is to encourage local industry in null sec blocs. What is happening right now is that there are insanely huge power blocks that have 90% of their production in high sec or are relying on imported minerals to build stuff locally. Entire Titan fleets being built with minerals that were mined in a 1.0 system while the rock fields in the systems the Titans are being built are untouched. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. As such, mineral compression as a mechanic is probably being left out very much on purpose. Just like loot reprocessing is being nerfed to **** for the same reason. This is indeed the problem. So why can't the null sec power blocks HTFU and provide security for a mining operation in their systems? Or is it easier just to elect one of your ranks to the CSM and have that person fly to Iceland to cry all over the conference room table until you get what you want?
CCP has always been a goonz bi tch they have always bent over backwards for them |
Melek D'Ivri
Propst Mining Services
37
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:24:00 -
[464] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:I've been reading through this thread and what I'm not seeing a lot of people comment on is loot reprocs.
I'm sure CCP has access to the amount of minerals that are currently being added to the market through this sort of mining, but I without knowing how much are coming from this method, its going to be pretty hard to fathom just how badly this is going to affect the market. If people were to stop refining all modules for mins that are dropped as loot, this could have a huge affect on the mineral market and having prices going up a good bit.
As another poster said, this is also going to drastically decrease the price for some meta modules (ex: smartbombs that are otherwise valueless). I think people are worried about the wrong thing here (ie minerals from ore) as what CCP has shown is that despite these changes that profession is going to basically stay the same.
I'm just not sure what the point of introducing something like the MTU was if they were going to make looting not profitable, or not worth the time...
Also, with people compressing ore now as a viable profession, I wonder how much minerals that will take off the market since the ore won't be refined and thus also drive the price up. I expect to see all mineral prices rise by 10-20% if not 30% depending on how all this shakes out.
For heavy module reprocessors like myself I can give you a pretty fair estimate that at LEAST 40% of a large batch of mission loot (specifically) is turned into minerals. Sometimes this is higher, and 45%-50% is probably more accuracte, but I can guarantee 40% of the value being from minerals. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10468
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:24:00 -
[465] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:baltec1 wrote:Krom Thomson wrote: you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks
Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety. Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals. More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it.
We gain nothing over mining the same stuff in high sec. Why would we not mine it in high sec? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
PsychoBitch
Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo
444
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:25:00 -
[466] - Quote
YOU PEOPLE ARE OUT OF YOUR ****ING MINDS. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:25:00 -
[467] - Quote
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:Kadl wrote:Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant
Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition. A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium. An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity. You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no)
The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%.
Lets go through the steps:
1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores. 2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals. 3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals. 4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals. * The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't. |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
62
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:26:00 -
[468] - Quote
Kiere Padecain wrote:You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.
Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed. Exactly this.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10468
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:26:00 -
[469] - Quote
Krom Thomson wrote:
CCP has always been a goonz bi tch they have always bent over backwards for them
Yep, that's why the nerfed tech moons which we mostly controlled. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
204
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:27:00 -
[470] - Quote
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.
That is not the case. Lowends continue to be difficult to source in 0.0. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10468
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:27:00 -
[471] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Kiere Padecain wrote:You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.
Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed. Exactly this.
POS cost a lot more isk to run and can be blown up. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking Brave Collective
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:28:00 -
[472] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jeremy Soikutsu wrote: So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.
Why would we? High sec offers the exact same but with all the benefits of high sec safety. Why would we take the extra risk for no reward? I never said you should. I only care about people pushing this "no veld in null" bullshit.
As an aside there's not no benefit, decreased logistics load would be the benefit under a proper set up. If you think that's not worth it that's fine, but it's not nothing. "Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:29:00 -
[473] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:We gain nothing over mining the same stuff in high sec. Why would we not mine it in high sec?
Obviously you have a problem with math and I am not going to educate you.
Someone please get ballic1 a third grade math primer. |
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:30:00 -
[474] - Quote
Nice overhaul, now let the rorqual compress minerals and carry those in ihts ore bay too to make it shine as a specialized ship |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
330
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:31:00 -
[475] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:So why can't the null sec power blocks HTFU and provide security for a mining operation in their systems? Or is it easier just to elect one of your ranks to the CSM and have that person fly to Iceland to cry all over the conference room table until you get what you want? Yeah I think we get that you are super-jelly of nullsec. That's cool. (Not really.) I spend my time hanging out in hi-sec as well, so I can kinda see where you are coming from. (Again, not really.) But you gotta remember that industrialist in null have ALOT more risks than empire-dwellers. Let's just ignore the fact that being an industrialist in null is currently rather pointless (other than supercap production obviously). It's stupid, but they are still there. And even with all their scout info channels and other nullsec silliness they still have a huge risk - the fact that at anytime somebody can come along and take their POSes, their stations, and their space. All their stuff? Locked away. Never to be seen again. So yeah, they do deserve a few benefits for that risk.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10468
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:31:00 -
[476] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:baltec1 wrote:We gain nothing over mining the same stuff in high sec. Why would we not mine it in high sec? Obviously you have a problem with math and I am not going to educate you. Someone please get ballic1 a third grade math primer.
near endless Veld, perfect refining and concord.
What has null got to beat that? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
204
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:32:00 -
[477] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:baltec1 wrote:Krom Thomson wrote: you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks
Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety. Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals. More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it. The problem is that what you see as "system after system of belts in null sec" is actually a pittance of ore compared to what the fires of industry require. We work on different scales; the miner sees boundless fields of plenty, while the supercap producer sees a bare pipe rising out of the ground in a desert ghost town, dripping a little bit of trit onto the ground once every few minutes. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Krom Thomson
Dark Neutron Star Metatron Inc. Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:32:00 -
[478] - Quote
Kadl wrote:Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:Kadl wrote:Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant
Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition. A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium. An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity. You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no) The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%. Lets go through the steps: 1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores. 2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals. 3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals. 4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals. * The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't.
+ implants |
Destitute Tehol Beddict
ROC Incorporated The ROC
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:32:00 -
[479] - Quote
Kadl wrote:Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:Kadl wrote:Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant
Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition. A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium. An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity. You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no) The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%. Lets go through the steps: 1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores. 2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals. 3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals. 4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals. * The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't.
Ahh I misunderstood your reply.
To be frankly honest the ORE change do not interest me nor do I care about it..
My concern was with the module changes.. (or really lack there of) |
Tildor Sarzaf
Pro Synergy
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 21:33:00 -
[480] - Quote
I for one would like to see some data regarding the necessary changes to these module reprocessing nerfs to incur such a dramatic change. Otherwise, this is just a gut punch into fellow full-time salvagers like myself who not only do this for ISK, but for fun. |
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