well, if the most effective way of hauling minerals flips from modules to ores, and refining ores becomes up to 20% more efficient in 0.0, you do the math.

The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec.

Want to get people mining and producing in Nullsec, nerf Plexing/Ratting and Moon Mining.

Oh thanks for the primer on rock size and spawn rates. That completely explains why you can't seem to get in a mining ship and mine.

This is not even remotely close to the same reproc rate.

Math is hard after the change if you have max skills you will get the same yield out of a block of veld as you would pre patch. People in null will get slightly more yield out of the same block of veld if they have upgraded their station.

So you want to lose the extra 5% and 10% compression you get from the ore variants? I suspects a great many people would argue with that.


Ore holds currently allow for compressed Ore. I see no reason for that to change.

Because even if we did, there would not be enough lowend minerals to make anything of worth. This is by design; highsec is supposed to supply the lowends; nullsec, the highends. The whole "rock size and spawn rates" was supposed to speak to this, but apparently I needed to break it down even more for the eve-o crowd.

Using the whip and enslaving all of our members to mine a pittance of ore at terrible isk/hr would not even begin to provide the minerals we need.

Death of the casual player. Join a 0.0 alliance, pay tribute, force yourself to login for CTAs, activity minimums. Screw having a real life. We have gone from sandbox to WoW style level regions.

Obviously an across the board 14.4% advantage in refining changes this situation of "no low end minerals" dramatically.

Of course by "dramatically" I mean not at all and I can't figure out why you are so dense that you just tried to offer that as a point.

At some point, you or your members are going to have to get in a ship and mine if you want to build things. You know...."HTFU!" and play the game if you want the shiny toys. Even after this patch goes live you will have to do that.

Furthermore, if you would take your own advice and "read back a few pages" you will plainly see that I pointed out that I have lived in null sec and know how the asteroids work just fine. It might just save you some typing next time. Apparently I also did the impossible while I was out there... since I ran a mining and manufacturing operation. All of my trit and pyerite came right off the market at less than Jita prices thanks to those annoying hauler spawns in neighboring NPC null.

You aren't meant to compete with them.

This whole change is precisely tailored at bringing in the long time request of large null sec alliances (expecially one) to have everything made the best for them "because we fought to hold sov".

Therefore you are meant to either suck up and join them or close shop.

Oh please, how does this change even remotely "screw over" hisec? When the ESS was announced and null players complained about the 5% bounty nerf there was plenty of HTFU coming from hisec players and this is only a 2.8% nerf. So the definition of "screwing over" hisec is doing anything that is not the status quo? The module reprocessing nerf hits everyone the same so we are really crying over 2.8%? The change is simple really, if you mine in hisec you will no longer refine your ore. Nullsec ores will be refined in nullsec and high end minerals will be shipped out. Hisec ores will be sold as ore and compressed for transport and refining in nullsec.

To the guys that made their living salvaging - yes it sucks that you spent time training skills that are no longer needed. But it also sucks that I trained 60 days for large autocannons only to have tracking enhancers nerfed and making that training time a waste for me. Welcome to eve.

My drink is empty.

If I read this all correctly I'm going to get hit with a very large nerf bat.

The timing is such that I should stock up like hell before the patch.

Once it is over I should hope that bounties alone will pay my way for the next 18 months until the economy recovers (yes I am looking at you battleship BPO)

Oh wait. I really don't give a flying squirrel and will just adapt.

Bartender!

Really, CCP? What a f*cked way to start off announcing summer features.


So in short you're nerfing hisec. Woohoo, sure makes me look forward to this summer then. Sure, the refining bit needed work, but you really didn't have to completely destroy mineral compression and reprocessing loot, as well as drop ore yields down the shitter.


No, I'd rather have it the way it currently is than what you're planning, even if some parts make sense. Stop f*cking up the game, you've done enough already.

CCP Ytterbium, if the Minmatar Outpost once fully upgraded is the new "100%" could the numbers not be adjusted to reflect this? Some players may (and probably will) get extremely cranky to invest so much time and isk into getting there refining to perfect skills and implants only to see they refine at 86.8%

We'd have to buff null (again) to compensate Goons for all their lost incomeGǪ

Regarding the Minmatar Outpost providing no advantage over the other racial ones when it's not upgraded, that's a good point, will look into that one.

Furthermore, if you would take your own advice and "read back a few pages" you will plainly see that I pointed out that I have lived in null sec and know how the asteroids work just fine. It might just save you some typing next time. Apparently I also did the impossible while I was out there... since I ran a mining and manufacturing operation. All of my trit and pyerite came right off the market at less than Jita prices thanks to those annoying hauler spawns in neighboring NPC null.

TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?

what i think about the refining array is: either they can't get the refining array to use your skills (bc programming limitation), or like other new things in EVE they make it OP at first so that people will want to use it/make it a thing. I know of quite a few people who will be happy about this change.

anyway. refining, mining, all PVE sources of isk should be the worst in highsec. make it a sample of game mechanics, but nothing more.

if the refining array is your new best option, go with it.

instead of worrying about mega allies, find a way to join one.

TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?

oh dear me in order to compete economically with nullsec i might have to put in a fraction of the effort they do?

heavens to betsy this can't be happening what kind of monster would put in a change that would do that

mommmyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?

what i don't get is ... if you see how much better entity A's margins will be over entity B, why not ... join entity A? the only reasons I can come up with are RP.

A 5% bounty nerf is a 5% bounty nerf. You loose 5% of your income from something like that.

Every industrialist has a magic number that is a margin percentage that is a break-point for them. Above that number you seek to produce and sell that item below that number you stop production as a small shift in things could put you into the red. For most people doing high volume trade hub production that number is around 6-7 percent. Meaning that the ship you are building sells for 6-7% above build costs with market fees cutting into that. Multi-phase production is a little more complicated as there are more steps and each step along the path has to be considered if it is profitable to do your self or better out sourced but the same basic concept remains. Also low isk value things with high volumes and disproportionate production times like ammo don't follow this rule, however these qualifications aside I'll continue with my point.

So if you are only typically making about 7% over material costs and 4 or 5% puts in a danger zone then a 2.8% nerf means you can no longer operate your current business model. That's not a 2.8% nerf it's a 100% nerf to you and your style of game play.

Now I realize in this example I'm ignoring transportation cost from null to high sec but I was keeping it simple just to show you that you can't compare a 5% ratting nerf to a 2.8% refine disadvantage as bounties are 100% profit and Manufacturing is only about 6% so a 2.8% nerf is really halving your income.

Now I understand that people will say well just go to null and become and industrialist there. That kind of thing has been talked about on both sides already in this threadnaught and I'm not going to go off topic here to address that.

Love the changes!!!

2 things caught my eye and made me sigh,
1) Refining Arrays Just doing max regardless of skills. (Why train, just drop and pos and move on with life, It breaks the system you are trying to implement)
2) Compression, the Roq is back to being useless, you had it shining again for 30secs, then said don't worry you can us a POS module.

I love it cause it prevents Modules as the primary means of transporting minerals for mass production. But you went and nerfed ships that need to the heart and soul of operations!

My suggestions

1) Move the Refining Arrays out of the POS and make them Deployable Objects, and have then refine based on the user of the object!

2) MAKE THE Roqual Worth something! It needs to have its nitch that is not being shared with a POS or deployable object.

So, as a lowsec builder, what I'm getting is that I have to either run around picking up ore, or give part of my margin to some ******* who's willing to compress it for me. Also, I need a tower in lowsec to keep up with the joneses. Also, anybody who builds in sov null and jumps the finished product to low can crush me.

I'm not going to threaten to leave the game or anything, but if you're going to **** my livelihood from three directions at once you could at least not be all condescending about how nobody has anything to worry about.

I'm just glad I don't rely on mining or missioning every month.