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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Disband.
987
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:19:00 -
[841] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:admiral root wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".
i think you should reconsider your messaging there... I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward". Which risk?
The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:22:00 -
[842] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".
i think you should reconsider your messaging there... I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward". i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:24:00 -
[843] - Quote
admiral root wrote:The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec. the inherent risk of living in (sov) nullsec need not be greater than the inherent risk of living in highsec, considering alpha nados and the New Order. and yet you demand greater rewards.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
68
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:25:00 -
[844] - Quote
Coras Aldeland wrote: I agree that it was too easy to achieve 100% refining efficiency but I question if the numbers have moved too far. I don't see where 100% efficiency is even attainable. ... If a Minmatar outpost is the best at 60% efficiency then with max skills and 4% implant should give you 100% refining efficiency. Everything should be calculated down from there. In other words, the 72.4% available in a 50% station should be 90% and slide faster down to the 52% with no skills.
One problem with having 100% be attainable, though, was that it limited the ability of the developers to adjust things or introduce refining improvements into the game.
Look at it this way. They could, if they wanted to, introduce T3 mining barges (or strip miners, mining upgrades, mining crystals, new skills, etc.) right now and give them lower cycle times or larger m3 collection rates. They have the ability to improve resource collection this way.
Until this change, there was no way to improve on refining. You couldn't go beyond the 100% ceiling. More to the point, training the ore-specific refining skills to level 5 was a silly waste of time, as you could easily reach 100% (even in null) without doing so.
By leaving some room between the "best available refining" and 100%, they have the ability to adjust things as they see how the market reacts to these changes. They can adjust the refining rates in low sec and NPC null, introduce new POS modules, play around with how different skills affect things, create new refining implants, and all kinds of other things.
Besides, all refining has some inherent waste involved. So there is a bit or realism (and congruence with other things in the game) by not allowing anyone to reach the 100% refining rate.
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Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2320
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Posted - 2014.03.21 14:28:00 -
[845] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote: i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.
This has nothing to do with mining and everything to do with manufacturing. If you're a highsec miner that wants to sell to nullsec, you will now compress the ore directly and it will get shipped to those nice shiny refineries. Thus your product is not disadvantaged at all. The buff to nullsec refining means that there's a reward, not entirely for the risk, but also for the unavoidable costs of doing manufacturing in nullsec. This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing.
The more I think about these changes the more awesome I think they are in every way. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Disband.
987
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:30:00 -
[846] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much.
It didn't seem that way from your previous post.
Daniel Plain wrote:the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec.
And it still doesn't look that way given this post. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:32:00 -
[847] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".
i think you should reconsider your messaging there...
Oh Daniel, you don't believe their lies about how null sec belts work either? These guys act like no one can fly out there and see system after system of rocks that have sat for YEARS. They act like the respawn rate of the rocks has anything to do with the fact that they can't be bothered to mine themselves or compel their members to mine for them.
I figure once this new change fails to generate any significant amount of mining in null sec (outside of attempts to manipulate markets of course) that the Goons will just ask CCP to bypass all the other game mechanics that they can't be bothered to use and just put Supercaps directly in their hangars. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:32:00 -
[848] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Daniel Plain wrote: i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.
This has nothing to do with mining and everything to do with manufacturing. If you're a highsec miner that wants to sell to nullsec, you will now compress the ore directly and it will get shipped to those nice shiny refineries. Thus your product is not disadvantaged at all. The buff to nullsec refining means that there's a reward, not entirely for the risk, but also for the unavoidable costs of doing manufacturing in nullsec. This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing. The more I think about these changes the more awesome I think they are in every way. go back a few pages and you will see me writing my opinion on the changes, or lack thereof. the post you mention refers to an answer to mynna's post which explicitly dealt with mining.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
222
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Posted - 2014.03.21 14:34:00 -
[849] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".
i think you should reconsider your messaging there... Oh Daniel, you don't believe their lies about how null sec belts work either? These guys act like no one can fly out there and see system after system of rocks that have sat for YEARS. They act like the respawn rate of the rocks has anything to do with the fact that they can't be bothered to mine themselves or compel their members to mine for them. I figure once this new change fails to generate any significant amount of mining in null sec (outside of attempts to manipulate markets of course) that the Goons will just ask CCP to bypass all the other game mechanics that they can't be bothered to use and just put Supercaps directly in their hangars. You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent.
Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
367
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:35:00 -
[850] - Quote
Just another example of why the CSM needs to be abolished. |
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GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:38:00 -
[851] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Daniel Plain wrote: i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.
This has nothing to do with mining and everything to do with manufacturing. If you're a highsec miner that wants to sell to nullsec, you will now compress the ore directly and it will get shipped to those nice shiny refineries. Thus your product is not disadvantaged at all. The buff to nullsec refining means that there's a reward, not entirely for the risk, but also for the unavoidable costs of doing manufacturing in nullsec. This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing. The more I think about these changes the more awesome I think they are in every way.
This is a brilliant analysis, all of high sec selling compressed ore to null sec for refining. What could go wrong? |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:39:00 -
[852] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".
i think you should reconsider your messaging there... Oh Daniel, you don't believe their lies about how null sec belts work either? These guys act like no one can fly out there and see system after system of rocks that have sat for YEARS. They act like the respawn rate of the rocks has anything to do with the fact that they can't be bothered to mine themselves or compel their members to mine for them. I figure once this new change fails to generate any significant amount of mining in null sec (outside of attempts to manipulate markets of course) that the Goons will just ask CCP to bypass all the other game mechanics that they can't be bothered to use and just put Supercaps directly in their hangars. please don't put words in my mouth.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
367
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:42:00 -
[853] - Quote
Querns wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".
i think you should reconsider your messaging there... Oh Daniel, you don't believe their lies about how null sec belts work either? These guys act like no one can fly out there and see system after system of rocks that have sat for YEARS. They act like the respawn rate of the rocks has anything to do with the fact that they can't be bothered to mine themselves or compel their members to mine for them. I figure once this new change fails to generate any significant amount of mining in null sec (outside of attempts to manipulate markets of course) that the Goons will just ask CCP to bypass all the other game mechanics that they can't be bothered to use and just put Supercaps directly in their hangars. You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent. Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss.
You certainly whine an awful lot about it though. |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:43:00 -
[854] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Lemmih AI wrote:Joanna RB wrote:Does this now mean that an unimproved Minmatar outpost now is totally USELESS compared to the other races unimproved outposts, since its only advantage, the refinery, is now given to all 4 outposts at the same level? I was wondering when someone would point point out this huge nerf. Currently, every unimproved outpost has some huge advantage over every other. The current state of things is that a fully upgraded non-Matari outpost still cannot touch an unupgraded Matari outpost; after this nerf, the Minmatar outpost starts at a huge disadvantage and grows only slightly better than other outposts with regard to refining. The Minmatar outpost should at least start with a better refining rate than others, even if only 5%. ... Also, I've seen no mention of the fact that by changing Rorqual compression to not be a manufacturing process, you're reducing it's ore capacity, as before we could opt not to deliver jobs. Excellent points here, as well. This is a case of null bears whining even harder than even a high sec carebear.
First you complained that nullsecers will now have to train their advanced ore processing skills to V to squeeze the last benefit from all the high end ores which are available there.
And now you want the minmatar unupgraded outpost to give even more benefit than a high sec station. Even with one upgrade it is already outperforming a POS refinery, two upgrades and it is above and beyond anything that any other player can achieve.
HTFU has never been more appropriate. |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:45:00 -
[855] - Quote
Batelle wrote: This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing. How so?
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:47:00 -
[856] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:Batelle wrote: This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing. How so? well, if the most effective way of hauling minerals flips from modules to ores, and refining ores becomes up to 20% more efficient in 0.0, you do the math.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:48:00 -
[857] - Quote
Querns wrote:[quote=GreasyCarl Semah]You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent.
Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss.
Oh dear, a member of the Turdswarm "economic cabal" can't refute what I have to say so we get a cutesy post.
Obviously they set the bar quite low for that particular brain trust.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
222
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Posted - 2014.03.21 14:51:00 -
[858] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Querns wrote:[quote=GreasyCarl Semah]You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent.
Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss. Oh dear, a member of the Turdswarm "economic cabal" can't refute what I have to say so we get a cutesy post. Obviously they set the bar quite low for that particular brain trust. Read back half a dozen pages or so; I've laid out why your posts are terrible and wrong. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
222
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:52:00 -
[859] - Quote
Hint: newbies are not slave labor. No one is obligated to mine, ever. The fact that you covet our tiny asteroid belts due to the crippling poverty that a highsec miner faces on account of daily depletion of highsec belts does not somehow obligate us to use ours. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:53:00 -
[860] - Quote
Kuni Oichi wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:mynnna wrote: - it's got everything to do with mining simply not being a worthwhile task. \ Admitting that you and your friends are too lazy or self important to actually mine the asteroids in your space isn't much of an attack on my premise. Neither is admitting that in an alliance with 20,000 or more members you can't arrange or force your new members to take up the task of mining for the almighty alliance. That sounds like a problem with logistics and leadership, not with game design. A leadership that forces new players to mine is far more problematic than one that doesn't.
And that is your problem exclusively. |
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
368
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:54:00 -
[861] - Quote
Querns wrote:Hint: newbies are not slave labor. No one is obligated to mine, ever. The fact that you covet our tiny asteroid belts due to the crippling poverty that a highsec miner faces on account of daily depletion of highsec belts does not somehow obligate us to use ours.
Yet it entitles your CSM members to lobby for changes to mechanics that don't even impact "you", all because you refuse to mine belts in your own space. Sounds about par for the course for Goon Logic. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:56:00 -
[862] - Quote
Querns wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Querns wrote:[quote=GreasyCarl Semah]You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent.
Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss. Oh dear, a member of the Turdswarm "economic cabal" can't refute what I have to say so we get a cutesy post. Obviously they set the bar quite low for that particular brain trust. Read back half a dozen pages or so; I've laid out why your posts are terrible and wrong.
Oh thanks for the primer on rock size and spawn rates. That completely explains why you can't seem to get in a mining ship and mine. |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:56:00 -
[863] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Marcia en Welle wrote:Batelle wrote: This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing. How so? well, if the most effective way of hauling minerals flips from modules to ores, and refining ores becomes up to 20% more efficient in 0.0, you do the math. I don't see how this will explicitly affect t1 manufacturing over any other form of manufacturing.
Null sec will be encouraged to localise their production across the board. |
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:00:00 -
[864] - Quote
My biggest beef with this is that the Minmatar Outpost needs 2 upgrades before getting better than POS refining. Maybe the Tier 1 upgrade could be 54% |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:03:00 -
[865] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Marcia en Welle wrote:Batelle wrote: This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing. How so? well, if the most effective way of hauling minerals flips from modules to ores, and refining ores becomes up to 20% more efficient in 0.0, you do the math. I don't see how this will explicitly affect t1 manufacturing over any other form of manufacturing. T1 products (especially ships) are the largest mineral sink. most other items require other components like PI products, salvage etc.Quote:Null sec will be encouraged to localise their production across the board. well, assuming constant demand, if one part of space starts producing more, there has to be another part that will have to cut back. that's why you have so much hate on here from hisec industrialists.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
368
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:03:00 -
[866] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Marcia en Welle wrote:Batelle wrote: This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing. How so? well, if the most effective way of hauling minerals flips from modules to ores, and refining ores becomes up to 20% more efficient in 0.0, you do the math. I don't see how this will explicitly affect t1 manufacturing over any other form of manufacturing. Null sec will be encouraged to localise their production across the board.
It won't happen because it is not as profitable. It is a side profit at best. The money will continue to remain in doing plexes and hunting rats, and that is where the people will go. The REAL money comes from selling Moongoo back in Jita, passively earned by simply bloobing timers and blue up 3/4 of space.
Production will remain in Hi Sec because outside of Capital/SuperCapital production it isn't an effective isk/hr for "line members" in Null alliances. Sure there might be some guys from logistics who bake some ships but its hardly comparable at all. This isn't because of mechanics though, this is because of players CHOOSING to min/max their time investment in game.
Go fly through CFC space, you can go from north to south and see less than a fraction of a % of their ~50K members. They don't use the space they have, and then whine to CCP on forums and in CSM meetings about the people who actually use the space.
Want to get people mining and producing in Nullsec, nerf Plexing/Ratting and Moon Mining.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1890
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:05:00 -
[867] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Hint: newbies are not slave labor. No one is obligated to mine, ever. The fact that you covet our tiny asteroid belts due to the crippling poverty that a highsec miner faces on account of daily depletion of highsec belts does not somehow obligate us to use ours. Yet it entitles your CSM members to lobby for changes to mechanics that don't even impact "you", all because you refuse to mine belts in your own space. Sounds about par for the course for Goon Logic. could not have said it better. the hidden assumption is that no newbiew would ever want to mine ever. this fits goon ideology but not reality.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
154
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:11:00 -
[868] - Quote
The reprocessing update, must be immediately followed by iteration on reprocessing yield of Station Equipment across new eden.
Please CCP do not delay that to long Eve rule no.1: The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2681
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:17:00 -
[869] - Quote
Ive not read all 44 pages, so this may be a repeat. There is now a mini-profession of buying up surplus loot and reprocessing it. In high sec many items (rat loot: low meta modules) are in gross oversupply, and their prices have dropped to below the mineral value. With the change to reprocessing these will drop even farther. Another note: At one time in the past CCP nerfed the reprocessing value of these same items, cutting their mineral content in half. For all practical purposes, they are cutting it in half again. I recommend reversing the mineral content nerf of these modules. Doing so will mean that after the summer change these modules will retain their current value. Making this change will not make "gun mining" easier, it will just leave it as it is now. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6724
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:26:00 -
[870] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:admiral root wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".
i think you should reconsider your messaging there... I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward". i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours. it is arguably more safe in the sense that if you ignore reality you can argue anything
it is not arguably more safe in the sense that there are legitimate arguments it is more safe Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
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