1) EVE doesn't have an end-game.

2) If you love WoW so much because of the "end game" (which is simply levelling your gear instead of your character), why don't you go back there?

3) All the games which try to replicate WoW's model fail. Why should EVE try to emulate WoW when it already has a model that has worked for 10 years?

4) EVE doesn't have an end-game, so discussion of "end game content" is meaningless.

Weaselior has a point, GǪ

I stopped at level 4 because there was no advantage to moving up to 5. Now there is an advantage to getting level 5 trained, and -- as Weaselior noted -- it's going to take me more than 200 days to get all of these skills from level 4 to level 5. It's physically impossible to get all of this done before the patch drops this summer.

Weaselior has a point, and I think everryone who claims that this is an enormous buff for null sec should consider the ramifications that he is putting forward.

Well, they do get access to the intensive refining array, with a higher return on it.

you keep forgetting one small thing and that indys are mostly treated as second class in null cpp can't fix null only null can fix null by giving up this stupid anti new players and anti indy lifestyle

I don't really get the rage over the implant, it's only like 300m, if they were asking people for a cosmos implant or something maybe that would be an issue but the 4% is like nothing, not even the cost of a normal set of +5s

the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect

the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect

the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect

It is not the new perfect, the new perfect can only be achieved if you are an alliance holder in null sec with a minmatar fully upgraded station. To be honest I have no problem with this, but at least extend some of the benefit to low sec and npc null.

This applies to indies, not newbros.

And as soon as indies start contributing to the good of the alliance at the same level as a PvP player, we will stop treating them like second class citizens.

But to contribute on that level would require them either providing supplies at MASSIVE discounts (And I don't mean 5% over Jita), or supplying the alliance with a flat tax of isk, minerals or ore.

If you want to come out and give your alliance a 30% discount in order to keep your value anywhere near that of a PvP player, then alliances will welcome you with open arms.

But if you think nullsec is your personal isk printing ground for mining, and that providing supplies to the alliance at only slightly ABOVE Jita is some sort of valuable contribution worthy of other people protecting you and the space you live in, you have your head in the sand.

And guess what? Most indy guys only want to go to null to make more money. Actually helping their alliance by decreasing their profit margins or spending time to PvP is nowhere on their agenda. They might pretend to agree to do so, but 90% of the time, they get out there and do absolutely nothing of significant benefit to the alliance.

TLDR: You can have mining profit, with effort paid for living there by PvPing, or you mine there and pay the alliance to protect you with a significant chunk of your efforts, or you can sit in highsec and pathetically whine about how nullsec alliances don't like miners. Pick one.

asking for what we get with stations that can be taken away from us would be unfair as you'd be getting the same reward without any of the risk

One option: form a corporation, make friends who are industrialists too. Then each of you can focus on different refining skills. Ultimately you'll get that 4 -> 5 training done much faster by having each corp member specialise until the entire corp is capable of perfect refines. Then you can all "backfill" the other refining skills over the entire 200-day period required.

Weaselior is only complaining because he has no friends and is not a team player. Or maybe he just likes complaining.

I'm simply suggesting something along the lines of a 55% station for low sec or npc null. That would make something in low sec which is actually worth fighting for.

no i keep forgetting only anome runners can make money hell if an indy even though well go's i think i should make some isk from my product well thats just plain and simple unheard of

I'm not asking for what you get, I am simply asking for a modicum of benefit over high sec stations. And conducting industry in the back ends of low sec or npc null is not without risk.

An upcoming industrial overlord needs somewhere to start, and we cannot all jump straight into null sec with a fully upgraded minmatar outpost.

I'm simply suggesting something along the lines of a 55% station for low sec or npc null. That would make something in low sec which is actually worth fighting for.

So the idea is to make the economy jump everything in cost by 30% or to make all the indie players quit so nothing get's made at all. great plan.

"Keep calm and carry on"

This is not something to be calm about. You're going to ruin Pro Synergy, a salvaging service corp, and they're already hitting harder times because of the MTU. This is going to be a huge hit to new players and mission runners who rely on their services to become established in eve, and your "compensation" does nothing to help them.

This change is not something I can support at all.

It looks like one thing that is going to have to stop here is this fascination with "perfect" refines. There is no longer the ability to refine perfectly. What remains is a system where you can train game skills to increase yield, and when that hits its cap, use social skills or PvP skills to get access to facilities to further increase your yield. No longer are capsuleers entitled to 100% refine yield in this brave new era.

but they gave you that, a 54% pos

the station would be strictly superior to anything but a fully upgraded amarr or minmatar outpost, something that costs 60b all told (~40b to upgrade from the base outpost) so that would actually be unbalanced

So null pilots are going to take a far bigger hit in training time than those who live in empire space.

"Keep calm and carry on"

This is not something to be calm about. You're going to ruin Pro Synergy, a salvaging service corp, and they're already hitting harder times because of the MTU. This is going to be a huge hit to new players and mission runners who rely on their services to become established in eve, and your "compensation" does nothing to help them.

This change is not something I can support at all.

No troll, but I would think 0.0 duders would be pretty used to this sort of skill regimen with all the varied fleet doctrines that come and go. Boots no Baltecs oh wait now OmegaFleet Nags oh don't forget Talwar/Crow fleets better make time for Maestroms etc etc.

Besides, we're looking at, what, Rank 1 skills? Really? Just pretend you're training T3 subs if that'll make it go down easier.

This may surprise you, but people who only run anoms all day instead of helping their alliance by PvPing are called RENTERS!

You can rent and then mine. You can rent and then run anoms. You can rent and then sing Turkish Opera in local.

You can join an alliance, PvP, then mine. You can join an alliance, PvP, then run anoms. You can join an alliance, PvP, then sing Turkish Opera in local.

Either way, you are paying with your time, in the form of PvP, or in isk, or in minerals.

But living in nullsec has a price, and the price is time spent helping you alliance, one way or another.

You are entitled to NOTHING.

minners are also not the once who do the ungodly mark ups its the people who move stuff in via jf or carrier and wh on the off occasions

No troll, but I would think 0.0 duders would be pretty used to this sort of skill regimen with all the varied fleet doctrines that come and go. Boots no Baltecs oh wait now OmegaFleet Nags oh don't forget Talwar/Crow fleets better make time for Maestroms etc etc.

Besides, we're looking at, what, Rank 1 skills? Really? Just pretend you're training T3 subs if that'll make it go down easier.