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Wrathful Penguins Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension 41	Posted - 2014.05.19 11:49:00 - [451] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Wrathful Penguins wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: bcs don't need MJDs. fixed Well considering I've also been saying that... <3
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 698	Posted - 2014.05.19 11:50:00 - [452] - Quote Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting. and bad enemies
Michael Harari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 1208	Posted - 2014.05.19 11:51:00 - [453] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting. and bad enemies All pvp is based on either being better than, or more numerous than your enemies.
Gregor Parud 505	Posted - 2014.05.19 11:57:00 - [454] - Quote Wrathful Penguins wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Wrathful Penguins wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Wrathful Penguins wrote: You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill. If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs. It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense. I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing. The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem. No, your whine is how your kiting backbone is "in danger" because you might miss some poor sod in a BC, using all kinds of hyperbole and dumb logic. Your "nonono, I'm in this for the good of the game" is very obvious. Of course I'm posting because the game I play is changing for the worse. The game some f1 brawl monkey might be changing for the better if every fight is scrams on both ships and calling in his blob because then he won't die to the likes of me because I don't fly with a blob. For him everything being blob vs blob might be an improvement, he might be part of the biggest blob, for me it's certainly not because I don't care for that. I'm not sure why you think identifying that I am trying to preserve my style of gameplay when it is under a very serious attack in any way discredits the issues with this module. I don't deny that I use warp disruptors, nor that I'd like to keep them relevant. My point is just that this change makes them far less relevant and I don't think that is a good direction. Jezus ******* Christ, how much hyperbole can one possible cram in one's posts. ONE ship type (that's currently not at all used too much because it's too slow, and has been nerfed while other ship types got buffed) gets MJD and suddenly all doom and gloom. Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less. Do you REALLY think that suddenly the skies will be full of MJD BCs, LOLing all over the place? They're STILL slow to warp, they're STILL too slow to catch anything. MJD is a defensive buff and a "come and fight me" module. p.s. just because you found the orbit and keep at range buttons doesn't mean you're somehow more intelligent than others, your posting isn't helping either.
Wrathful Penguins Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension 41	Posted - 2014.05.19 11:57:00 - [455] - Quote Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting. and bad enemies All pvp is based on ~~either being better than~~, or more numerous than your enemies. Fozzie'd that for you. Enjoy your new emergent gameplay.
Johann Rascali Crunchy Crunchy The Obsidian Front 96	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:00:00 - [456] - Quote I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. Welcome to our universe where cooldown timers are a mystery, the PLEX menu is just an advertisement, shrapnel bombs deal explosive force, concussion bombs are somehow kinetically penetrative, and who left all these prototype Inferno modules all over the place?
Wrathful Penguins Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension 41	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:01:00 - [457] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, because a) I don't fly gangs, I predominantly solo and b) scramming things in my kiting solo is somewhat problematic I honestly don't think you're understanding the issue here. You're identifying it when you post things like "have to bring scrams" but then you're not somehow putting the word scram with the word kiting and working out why people like myself think this isn't a good development.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 55	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:02:00 - [458] - Quote Wrathful Penguins wrote: afkalt wrote: Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho. Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs. Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one. I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range. So let's say for the sakes of argument it is reasonable - what is the effective difference between that, and a MMJD for the solo pilot? It's still a fitting trade, it's not a guaranteed escape. For small gang work - dedicate someone quick to carry a scram. Remember You don't NEED to fight in scram range all the time, so long as you can get there for the spool up time. The animation is a massive tell.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 698	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:05:00 - [459] - Quote afkalt wrote: Wrathful Penguins wrote: afkalt wrote: Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho. Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs. Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one. I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range. So let's say for the sakes of argument it is reasonable - what is the effective difference between that, and a MMJD for the solo pilot? It's still a fitting trade, it's not a guaranteed escape. For small gang work - dedicate someone quick to carry a scram. Remember You don't NEED to fight in scram range all the time, so long as you can get there for the spool up time. The animation is a massive tell. yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently
Speedkermit Damo Demonic Retribution 282	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:06:00 - [460] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive! This module will begin restricted to Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Deep Space Transports. We will consider expanding it to some other classes in the future but that is a discussion for after we've seen how they work out on these initial groups. The MMJD uses the same Micro Jump Drive Operation skill as the LMJD and has the same range (100km), spool up (12s base reduced by the skill) and cooldown (3 minutes) as the Large version. It has the following requirements: Powergrid: 165 CPU: 51 Capacitor: 197 We expect that these modules will be a very exciting option for battlecruisers (especially attack battlecruisers) in both fleets and small gangs. Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities. These modules will be on SISI for your testing pleasure soon. Let us know what you think! Why don't you just make every ship interdiction nullifed already? Don't Panic.
Michael Harari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 1209	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:06:00 - [461] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die?
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1372	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:07:00 - [462] - Quote Johann Rascali wrote: I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3. That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 811	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:12:00 - [463] - Quote i do agree with the people saying bc's don't need this mod .... i think they are generally in a good place the reduced usage is a good thing Fozzie... more diversity is what we like ...that being said part of the problem in the combat bc area is that a lot of the ships are too samey... ABC's inhibit there potential somewhat and force them into being brawlers only.. make ABC's T2 - they are specialist ships and should be treated as such.. then 1/2 of the CBC's could be moved to attack bc's - this would open up options for more variety and mobility.. New Attack bc's drake - drop resist,less tank for missile velocity, buff mobility .. kind of like the navy version really.. Hurricane - more mobility, less tank Harbinger - more mobility, less tank Brutix - more mobility, less tank, maybe switch rep bonus for falloff bonus. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please.
Gregor Parud 505	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:18:00 - [464] - Quote Wrathful Penguins wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, because a) I don't fly gangs, I predominantly solo and b) scramming things in my kiting solo is somewhat problematic I honestly don't think you're understanding the issue here. You're identifying it when you post things like "have to bring scrams" but then you're not somehow putting the word scram with the word kiting and working out why people like myself think this isn't a good development. I understand it just fine, you're using one strategy which makes you feel superior (which isn't that difficult given the average quality of players, don't kid yourself) and now you're scared shitless about how you might not be able to kill a BC you ran in to, because he might actually get away from you (gasp). And this is of course not allowed, your superior strategy (...) should always hold the advantage and nothing is allowed to get away from it and anything that tries to anyway is dumb and F1 pushing. To frantically try and prevent this change from happening you start to make hilarious hyperbole strawman posts (which don't make you look that intelligent, just saying) because you feel threatened by this disturbing change. Did I miss anything?
Kane Fenris NWP 150	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:19:00 - [465] - Quote Attackbcs already killed most uses of combat bcs now they get a buff again? bs got an edge over attack bcs when they got mjds and now lost tbis edge? wtf is wrong with you at ccp you bring a op ship in the game that steps o toes of two other ship classes. then you struggle to fix it and when its nearly fi ed you break it again fully as aware of what your doing? cant belive it
Wrathful Penguins Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension 41	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:22:00 - [466] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Wrathful Penguins wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, because a) I don't fly gangs, I predominantly solo and b) scramming things in my kiting solo is somewhat problematic I honestly don't think you're understanding the issue here. You're identifying it when you post things like "have to bring scrams" but then you're not somehow putting the word scram with the word kiting and working out why people like myself think this isn't a good development. I understand it just fine, you're using one strategy which makes you feel superior (which isn't that difficult given the average quality of players, don't kid yourself) and now you're scared shitless about how you might not be able to kill a BC you ran in to, because he might actually get away from you (gasp). And this is of course not allowed, your superior strategy (...) should always hold the advantage and nothing is allowed to get away from it and anything that tries to anyway is dumb and F1 pushing. To frantically try and prevent this change from happening you start to make hilarious hyperbole strawman posts (which don't make you look that intelligent, just saying) because you feel threatened by this disturbing change. Did I miss anything? The point? Fortunately for you the point is no longer going to be important.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 698	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:24:00 - [467] - Quote Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 55	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:24:00 - [468] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Johann Rascali wrote: I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3. That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3. I posted that a caracal before that can do it no problems and would almost certainly survive long enough for the slower ships to get into range. 35k EHP, 2117 m/s Sure, it won't kill it alone, but it's there for tackle.
Michael Harari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 1209	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:26:00 - [469] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp. In what way does an arty firetail or beam executioner have a brawling mode?
Gregor Parud 505	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:26:00 - [470] - Quote Wrathful Penguins wrote: Fortunately for you the point is no longer going to be important. it's fine, just not for the few drakes you might run in to. THE HORROR! See, you're talking about how superior you and your strategy are but what you're actually saying is "I'm really good at running away, look at how awesome I am at running away!" and then when ONE ship type (that's hardly used in the current meta, which won't change because of this module) gets an option to run away from your "run away" strategy you start yapping about how unfair it is. You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Wrathful Penguins Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension 41	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:30:00 - [471] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp. Certainly there are some rock paper scissors engagements in which the kiter knows ahead of time that he'll win but that is the same with any ship type. The brawler on station at zero will only aggress on the kiter if he's already in scram range, otherwise he'll redock etc. But that doesn't making kiting inherently riskless, the classic example used to be pointing a bs with heavy neuts in bcs and cruisers with 24-28k point range. If you were bored and ambitious you'd absolutely try it but whether or not you could achieve it comes entirely down to the skill of the pilots involved. Last night I tried isolating smaller ships when they had a webbing loki on the field, had he been more on the ball or I been less attentive I'd have died. Kiting gives you a wider engagement profile as a solo pilot, a small part of which is a rock paper scissors win, and a much larger part of which is dependent the skills of the pilots involved. This is a narrowing of that engagement profile and in order to restore it I would have to change my playstyle to include a gang of people and brawling, something I am not exactly eager to do and something which I believe will increase the degree to which whether or not I win or lose is entirely independent of pilot skill.
Michael Harari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 1209	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:30:00 - [472] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU. Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner!
Gregor Parud 505	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:30:00 - [473] - Quote As a sidenote; the more I see people whine about this horrendous change the more I feel Fozzie was actually right; it IS the solution for BCs. the whining is glorious.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 698	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:31:00 - [474] - Quote Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Michael Harari wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp. In what way does an arty firetail or beam executioner have a brawling mode? huh, I thought you were talking about tackle atrons. the beam executioners were comedy versions of comedy atrons, which are not conventional kiting ships, because they're slow as ****. it's in a completely different spot on the frigate honour rock/paper/scissors thing. and regarding scram kiting firetails, I kind of classify that as brawling.
Gregor Parud 505	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:33:00 - [475] - Quote Michael Harari wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU. Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place.
Michael Harari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 1209	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:34:00 - [476] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Michael Harari wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU. Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place. As I already said, my current kiting ship has a plate and no nanos. And apart from some travel fit interceptors, its the only fit ship I have for 50 jumps.
Gregor Parud 506	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:38:00 - [477] - Quote Michael Harari wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Michael Harari wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU. Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place. As I already said, my current kiting ship has a plate and no nanos. I see you're starting to nit pick, generally not a good sign. My statement stands, fights are won or lost before the fight even happens. That's why you fly and fit as you do. Now whining about how someone else's fitting choice might cramp your style is hilarious.
TheMercenaryKing StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing 205	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:39:00 - [478] - Quote Anyone out there aside from me dislike how powerful attack battlecruisers are? I am not saying they are OP, but a minor damage nerf would be nice IMO.
Michael Harari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 1209	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:40:00 - [479] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Michael Harari wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Michael Harari wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU. Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place. As I already said, my current kiting ship has a plate and no nanos. I see you're starting to nit pick, generally not a good sign. My statement stands, fights are won or lost before the fight even happens. That's why you fly and fit as you do. Now whining about how someone else's fitting choice might cramp your style is hilarious. Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 699	Posted - 2014.05.19 12:40:00 - [480] - Quote TheMercenaryKing wrote: Anyone out there aside from me dislike how powerful attack battlecruisers are? I am not saying they are OP, but a minor damage nerf would be nice IMO. they are OP. everyone who isn't awful wants them removed.

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