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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10058
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive!
This module will begin restricted to Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Deep Space Transports. We will consider expanding it to some other classes in the future but that is a discussion for after we've seen how they work out on these initial groups.
The MMJD uses the same Micro Jump Drive Operation skill as the LMJD and has the same range (100km), spool up (12s base reduced by the skill) and cooldown (3 minutes) as the Large version.
It has the following requirements: Powergrid: 165 CPU: 51 Capacitor: 197
We expect that these modules will be a very exciting option for battlecruisers (especially attack battlecruisers) in both fleets and small gangs.
Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
These modules will be on SISI for your testing pleasure soon. Let us know what you think! Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Chinicata Shihari
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
26
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds good. Now my cruiser can ninja stuff |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2349
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
These would work well on T3s and HACs also. -á --á |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3494
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Chinicata Shihari wrote:Sounds good. Now my cruiser can ninja stuff Quoting so that your shame is eternal.
(It says right there in the second sentence what can use them, and for now, it ain't cruisers) Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
William Darkk
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
16
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:These would work well on T3s and HACs also. That would completely defeat the point. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1153
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Battlecruisers, BC's
reading, folks. It does help.
any of you picturing quick jumps to get those darn snipers 100km off the gate?
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
400
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Excellent! This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
312
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
HAHAHA DAMN BUD |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1178
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
So now PL vultures cant be bubbled. Seems legit.
And you cant tackle sniping nagas with out a scram. |
Cyrillian Voth
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
1
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Is this connected with this story?
https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/boundless-creation-reveals-technological-breakthrough/ |
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BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
784
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
BCs are still awful
Pls fix . |
Gorski Car
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
278
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
I am just going to be quiet. #GORSKI4CSM https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4265138#post4265138
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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1178
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Battlecruisers, BC's
reading, folks. It does help.
any of you picturing quick jumps to get those darn snipers 100km off the gate?
m
And what if they are 120km away instead, and have their own mjd?
|
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
427
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 16:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'd rather you don't introduce this module at all |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
337
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100. Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight. |
dexter xio
TURN LEFT
51
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Posted - 2014.05.17 17:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
This better be a joke. Dexter xio - That cool guy |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1179
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
dexter xio wrote:This better be a joke.
What, you dont think that sniping nagas deserve immunity to long points? |
Vivianne Athonille
Athonille Logistics and Provisions
11
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Posted - 2014.05.17 17:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Will Command Ships also include the Industrial Command Ship (Orca) ?
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Red Crown
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
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Posted - 2014.05.17 17:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Combat BCs are still in a very bad place and due to their cruiser ranges won't derive much benefit from MMJDs.
I can definitely see how this will be a Very Cool Thing in a lot of situations, especially with Attack BCs, but not as much in medium to large fleet fights. |
Shrrrg
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
I dont think that is a good idea at all.
All it does will give people more reasons to fly the Tier 3 BCs and the normal bcs are still bad. |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1503
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
should be fun EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Kasutra
Tailor Company Company Company
274
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hmm, and here I thought MJDs were designed as a BS niche, as a fix for their, uh, rather horrible mobility.
Fozzie, does this mean you think BCs are in a similar situation as battleships were when the LMJD was introduced, or did you think they could just use another tool in the box? |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
19
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
I liked the MJD, however my problem with it as most of eve currently is lack of tactical choice, leading to cookie cutter builds for every ship. It would be nice to see some variables with the MJD as an example;
Increase the cooldown and spool-up for increased range, decrease for shorter ranges. This could be set similar to obit range.
Give it some scripts that alter its use. A script to give a massive speed boost for a short burst for example, Or another script that blooms the Mass of the ship making it better at bumping larger ships. |
Chitsa Jason
Narwhals Ate My Duck. Narwhals Ate My Duck
1246
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
The issue with BCs has allways been bomber fleets. MJD thing alleviates that issue a bit but I do think it is a step in wrong direction as it promotes less kill mails. Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me |
Saul Hyperion
Palmetto Galactic
74
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
This is awful. A whole new level of cowardice in small gang is about to happen.
I want change that result in more ships blowing up, not less. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1512
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
This will be a nice addition for battle cruisers.
Are we ever going to see meta, T2 and faction version of the MJD? +1 |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5191
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Is there a way you can remove attack battle cruisers from using these things for right now? They already do just fine with kiting and sniping. Even capable of anti-frigate work. Letting them fit one of these will make them incredibly over powered in small gang situations. The Paradox |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1905
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
Better this than that bungee jumping structure. At least MMJD comes with fitting sacrifice. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1180
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
"Oh man I just fleet warped my entire rail naga fleet into the enemy bubbles. I guess we are all dead, sorry for derping the fleet.
j/k, everyone just align and run your mjd on landing, we will lose like 5 or 10 guys that they manage to scram in 10s"
Im not entirely sure that ******* up was in need of such a large buff. |
Asa Shahni
BIack Sun Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
22
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Make it available for T3 and Force Recon Ships please.
AB-MJD pulse legion FTW.
Also I think FRs need a little something apart from being a cloaky underpower EWAR ship. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6282
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:26:00 -
[31] - Quote
I for one welcome out new T3 Batlecruiser overlords. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Akashi Suenobu
Raven's Flight Havoc.
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:Hmm, and here I thought MJDs were designed as a BS niche, as a fix for their, uh, rather horrible mobility. Fozzie, does this mean you think BCs are in a similar situation as battleships were when the LMJD was introduced, or did you think they could just use another tool in the box?
IIRC when they put out the first MJDs they also suggested that smaller versions were in development. |
Ripard Teg
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
895
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ugh.
The only way to catch medium or large BC fleets these days is to bubble them in. Now you're effectively giving these fleets bubble immunity. For instance, we're currently seeing large PL Vulture fleets in Provi. Those fleets can kick ass and take names, but we've been able to counter them with bubbles and massed Ruptures. We lose a huge number of Ruptures, but it's a viable counter.
Now we're still going to lose a huge number of Ruptures if we fight them, but 80% or more of the Vultures will get away. And if we bring a bunch of scrambling tacklers, the Vultures will just refuse to engage. If we can't tackle the fleet, we're not going to engage it. So we're just not going to fight them. And I doubt we're going to be alone in that. The default position when facing a large BC fleet will become "Guys, we don't have enough scrams and they're just going to get away. Everyone dock up and we'll wait for them to leave." or "They're BCs, we'll just out-run them."
So by doing this you're reducing the number of fights and reducing the number of BCs you're going to see on KMs and loss-mails as a result. I'm pretty sure that isn't your goal.
I don't mind these so much on attack BCs. They do kind of go with the role of a coward sitting 150 off a gate in his untanked super-tracking Tornado. But they're going to be OP on combat BCs.
Overall though, I would prefer that you look for another way to rebalance BCs and in the meantime you either give DSTs a role bonus to large MJDs or you limit medium MJDs to DSTs only for now. Jester's Trek: wherein I ramble about EVE Online, gaming, and from time to time... life. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
64
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bad idea.
Bad enough single point is gone when taking on any BS, now its mandatory to have short point for nearly every type of engagement.
See a 1000 dps Command ship. Tackle it, and watch it melt you as you have to get close.
Is there any point left in this game?
Can we change webbing bonus on minmatar ships to something else now, its becoming the opposite of useless, now useful to a whole new class of ship that will just MJD away faster. |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Blinks! Blinks for everybody! Erry'body in da club gettin' blinks.
We are all Mages now. |
Akashi Suenobu
Raven's Flight Havoc.
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:35:00 -
[36] - Quote
I have a question. I know if you're scrammed you can't MJD, but what about multiple long points? |
Kaeda Maxwell
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
298
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:36:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sometimes CCP you make me wonder if you just really hate people that kite.
Every time you force more scrams you severely limit the mobility envelope of ships, something that doesn't hurt brawling setups in the least but it really hurts kiting setups. In recent history you made long range neuts more common, you made speed difference between existing ships smaller with a lot of the tiercide re-balancing, you added multiple drone speed bonuses, you kicked tracking enhancers is the nuts and now you're adding a get out of jail free card for non BS hulls. Small gang kiting setups have already gone from being viable in the 20-28km range to now only being viable 28 and up range and this will just make it harder for those of us that skirmish again.
I'd request you at least think really hard on this once more, I can see why you might want this for command ships to encourage their usage on grid. But attack battle cruisers really don't need this, they're already fairly dodgy to tackle (especially if there's more then one or two) with long points, forcing scrams is really not required imho. |
HostileCyno OnGrid
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:So now PL vultures cant be bubbled. Seems legit.
And you cant tackle sniping nagas with out a scram.
Cry me a river. |
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues Aprilon Dynasty
66
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
Rab See wrote:Bad idea.
Bad enough single point is gone when taking on any BS, now its mandatory to have short point for nearly every type of engagement.
See a 1000 dps Command ship. Tackle it, and watch it melt you as you have to get close.
Is there any point left in this game?
Can we change webbing bonus on minmatar ships to something else now, its becoming the opposite of useless, now useful to a whole new class of ship that will just MJD away faster.
Or you know, any of the ships with a range extension to points, arazu anyone :P |
Cardano Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:47:00 -
[40] - Quote
Excellent choice of ship. The T1 indus could also have the possibility to fit it...
Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Deep Space transport ships really needed this mobility option. |
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Bosquit
Tempest Legion
58
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
This is super worrying as a change:
1. Disruptors are becoming more and more useless, as almost always you will need to go with scrams.
2. Bubbles are even more useless for holding down a fleet
3. The original purpose of the MJD was to allow BS to move around the field easier cause of how horrible their agility and speed is. Battlecruisers don't really have that huge of a problem with that.
What should be done is allow this to be used in the same manor but don't make it immune to bubbles. It would allow the mod to be a niche mod that would still find use but not overshadow the MJD, but still have a way to tackle large sniper fleets, without just having them warp off or MJD out. Possibly a longer spool time would be better as well, to limit the use in lowsec.
I don't know, this just feels really dumb as a mod, it's like giving the risk averse more and more ways to run away, which seems bad for pvp. "Insert Philosophical Statement Here" |
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
91
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:51:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cypherous wrote:Rab See wrote:Bad idea.
Bad enough single point is gone when taking on any BS, now its mandatory to have short point for nearly every type of engagement.
See a 1000 dps Command ship. Tackle it, and watch it melt you as you have to get close.
Is there any point left in this game?
Can we change webbing bonus on minmatar ships to something else now, its becoming the opposite of useless, now useful to a whole new class of ship that will just MJD away faster. Or you know, any of the ships with a range extension to points, arazu anyone :P
That's still pretty short, basically this is a huge nerf to small skilled gangs engaging blobs, they can't get close as they would be insta gibbed, and can't tackle from where they can fight...
I don't see much in the way of positives introducing that module... |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2509
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
This is terrible don't do this, you're making it increasingly easy to avoid combat in a game where picking a fight can already be an extreme challenge. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1857
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Red Crown wrote:Combat BCs are still in a very bad place and due to their cruiser ranges won't derive much benefit from MMJDs.
I can definitely see how this will be a Very Cool Thing in a lot of situations, especially with Attack BCs, but not as much in medium to large fleet fights.
it would be cool if the range of the jump was able to be "toggled" that way you can jump anywhere from 10km to 100km...
that would help combat ships as they could close range and unleash the blasters real fast.
also make the range and spool up time and cool down time reflected on how far you go.
so if its 100km 3 min cool down and long spool up
but its its 10km like a 30 second cool down and almost instant spool up. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
457
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:The issue with BCs has allways been bomber fleets. MJD thing alleviates that issue a bit but I do think it is a step in wrong direction as it promotes less kill mail for medium gangs. so basically **** this change.
Bombs explode after 10 seconds. with a skill at level 5, the spool up time is 9 seconds. You would need everyone in the fleet to notice the bombs and jump, without orders, the instant they are launched for this to have any effect on bombing runs. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1857
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:The issue with BCs has allways been bomber fleets. MJD thing alleviates that issue a bit but I do think it is a step in wrong direction as it promotes less kill mail for medium gangs. so basically **** this change.
what if they reduced the resistance bombs have to 90% or something that way you would reach a finite amount of bombs before they start to kill themselves. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1154
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Battlecruisers, BC's
reading, folks. It does help.
any of you picturing quick jumps to get those darn snipers 100km off the gate?
m And what if they are 120km away instead, and have their own mjd?
spoolup time, scramble
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Aurora Fatalis
Stillwater Corporation
81
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
100km seems a little too strong for a battlecruiser, considering their superior agility over battleships and the limited engagement range for combat BCs.
With a 50 km range, for example, a Prophecy doesn't jump out of its drone control range, making it more a combat mobility tool than an escape mechanism. You could close in on a kiting Ishtar, for example... :D If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you? |
Aldap
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Is there a way you can remove attack battle cruisers from using these things for right now? They already do just fine with kiting and sniping. Even capable of anti-frigate work. Letting them fit one of these will make them incredibly over powered in small gang situations. This An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
409
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
cause what attack battlecruisers needed was even more possibilities to not get tackled, aside from their stupid ******* speed |
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Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
310
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:55:00 -
[51] - Quote
This very good news. "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1857
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Aldap wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Is there a way you can remove attack battle cruisers from using these things for right now? They already do just fine with kiting and sniping. Even capable of anti-frigate work. Letting them fit one of these will make them incredibly over powered in small gang situations. This
yeah i second that... just make it for "combat" BC's and make the range 50km.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
611
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 17:59:00 -
[53] - Quote
Any ships planned to get bonuses for using them like marauders? |
Bosquit
Tempest Legion
61
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:08:00 -
[54] - Quote
BS MJD= Interesting tactical content creation
BC MJD=Risk Averse content creation. Poorly thought out mod that is solving problems that don't really exist. "Insert Philosophical Statement Here" |
Sintiar Loffwagea
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
this idea really good for new tactics warfare .
and BC got overshadow by T3C and BS because BC didn't have much choice and Commandship is expensive . so BC need more tech2. |
Endo Saissore
Gateway Cowboys
62
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:30:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'm hesitant to argue this because id love to fit a mmjd Mrym, but I have to agree that its not a good fit for tech 1 bcs. I suggest limiting it to command ships. There's more risk fielding a command ship on grid, so it makes sense that it gets a bonus to maneuverability. And it'll encourage me to finally try soloing in an Eos :) |
Rita Zechs
Large Rodent Hunters
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
You remind when there when that game was BC online because BC did everything cruisers did only better? It's coming back. Right now you fly cruisers over BC for increased escapability, with the BC now having the upper hand no reason whatsoever to fly a cruiser anymore...
Oh, and kiting is dead too...
Welcome to "evenly matched fleets fighting at close range", because every other fight will end up with people not engaging or leaving.... |
ViRtUoZone
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
20
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
All you have to do to balance this is make it so that it is unable to be used when disrupted instead of exclusively scrambled. |
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
1220
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:32:00 -
[59] - Quote
I don't think this will have much of an effect on sniping tier 3 BCs, which is pretty much the only flavor of tier-3 BC we see ever since they got nerfed into oblivion - at least the only good use for them. They're kind of annoying to fit, and it only offers a greater escape mechanism to those who are incapable of aligning. They're also categorically worse than Tengus which can sniper from further, apply more damage, be functionally unprobeable, and actually warp out of bubbles with no 8 second spool up delay should they be caught.
It may open the door back up for the roaming variety of tier-3, which would be nice (if not a huge stretch) since the current roaming ships are fairly stale. THE DREAM would be jumping intoa bubble camp, MMJD'ing, and then brawling outrageous. The reality is 'ohgod guys mjd and run!" though, which is kind of annoying since catching people with their pants down is already a pain in the butt. But hey, opening the door for more variety is pretty OK. It's kind of OP for the Vulture though, man who would have thought that the Vulture would not only be a viable PvP ship but arguably the most overpowered. What a time to be alive.
The ****** part, as some dude correctly pointed out, is that scrams are going to be even more crucial should these MMJDs catch on. And this really f'ing sucks, especially in the current meta when frigates/AFs are literally everywhere and now they'll have even more reason to fit scrams. The annoying factor is compounded even further since the current meta also favors ships with long effective ranges. Scrams are such fun-killing modules man. ~ |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
103
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
MMJD should be affected by long points and bubbles.
Reasons for this are already posted. |
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Arronicus
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
971
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Battlecruisers, BC's
reading, folks. It does help.
any of you picturing quick jumps to get those darn snipers 100km off the gate?
m And what if they are 120km away instead, and have their own mjd?
Then they better start spooling their MJD as soon as we start spooling ours, because it's not going to take more than 8 seconds to get into scram range and tackle one with a talos overheating the mwd and scram. |
darius mclever
71
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:36:00 -
[62] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:This is terrible don't do this, you're making it increasingly easy to avoid combat in a game where picking a fight can already be an extreme challenge.
I can see it on the DST, but not for the BC or CS. |
Calsys
Monks of War
105
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:37:00 -
[63] - Quote
hi ccp
i think its really "nice" improvement of this game
finally i can quit
cancel subscription on my 7 characters f**k you. |
twit brent
Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
This would only be a good idea if long points disabled them.
Needing tackle to get within scram range of battle cruisers is all kinds of stupid. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
402
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:39:00 -
[65] - Quote
darius mclever wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:This is terrible don't do this, you're making it increasingly easy to avoid combat in a game where picking a fight can already be an extreme challenge. I can see it on the DST, but not for the BC or CS.
I agree, it is a good module to use on the Transport Ship, if the spool timer was lower. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Suitonia
Path of Radiance HYDRA RELOADED
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:39:00 -
[66] - Quote
I pretty much agree with Elise. I don't think this will change much for the Attack Battlecruisers. I think it is also questionable giving the ability to Command Ships as they are also really strong right now.
I think this would be great on the Combat Battlecruisers though, HML Drakes, Arty Hurricanes, FEROXES, etc. are outclassed by Sniper T3s/CS/Attack BCs, and it would give them a new niche, and also allowing some close range Combat BCs the option to escape like Brutix / Harbinger could be fun.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2686
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
Calsys wrote:hi ccp
i think its really "nice" improvement of this game
finally i can quit
cancel subscription on my 7 characters f**k you.
Bye.
o/ Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
377
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:41:00 -
[68] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:MMJD should be affected by long points and bubbles.
Reasons for this are already posted. WORD
Make it so longpoints disrupt MMJD (except on deep space transports, they need some kind of edge since they are so useless.
Please don't break game CCP.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
|
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
Eagerly awaiting my alliance's horrid loss of Vultures too slow at trying to mjd when they are getting bombed. Or some other nonsense that involves idiots forgetting the sig bloom. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2686
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:43:00 -
[70] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Chitsa Jason wrote:The issue with BCs has allways been bomber fleets. MJD thing alleviates that issue a bit but I do think it is a step in wrong direction as it promotes less kill mail for medium gangs. so basically **** this change. what if they reduced the resistance bombs have to 90% or something that way you would reach a finite amount of bombs before they start to kill themselves.
You already do. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1358
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:44:00 -
[71] - Quote
With all due respect.. you insane fozzie? BC overshadowd by Battleships? Battleships only shadow asteroids as PVP capabilities. THey are already weak andyou are giving BC the only advantage taht battleships REALLY had? (because NO a bit mor EHP does nto pay off the smaller speed, worse align, WAY WAY worse tracking and damage application).
Battleships need help not less reasons to be used. I think has been a few months since I saw any non pirate battleship in PVP that was not a Domi or Geddon.
I know BC have almost vanished as well. But that is because their warp speed does nto allow them to support cruisers.
The commands ships are not even sued to give link bonuses for a single reason, they cannot keep up with cruisers whiel the t3 can. THe smaller fleet bonus is NOTHING compared to that.
Want BC size hulls more relevant? Increase their warp speed ( specially command ships.. these NEEED to be 3 au/s) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1358
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
twit brent wrote:This would only be a good idea if long points disabled them.
Needing tackle to get within scram range of battle cruisers is all kinds of stupid.
No longpoitns disablign them would negate compeltely the module. They were created because Battleships were USELES and had no advantage. Now they are giving that advantage to another category, making Battleships irrelevant again unless they are domi or geddon "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Orla- King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
29
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:47:00 -
[73] - Quote
Calsys wrote:hi ccp
i think its really "nice" improvement of this game
finally i can quit
cancel subscription on my 7 characters f**k you. can i have your isk to spend on these glorious modules? |
Calsys
Monks of War
105
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:49:00 -
[74] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote: Bye.
o/
\o/
Orla- King-Griffin wrote:Calsys wrote:hi ccp
i think its really "nice" improvement of this game
finally i can quit
cancel subscription on my 7 characters f**k you. can i have your isk to spend on these glorious modules? nope |
Aspalis
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1236
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:51:00 -
[75] - Quote
Calsys wrote:Domanique Altares wrote: Bye.
o/
\o/ Orla- King-Griffin wrote:Calsys wrote:hi ccp
i think its really "nice" improvement of this game
finally i can quit
cancel subscription on my 7 characters f**k you. can i have your isk to spend on these glorious modules? nope
Would you join me on comms to cry about leaving some more? Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry." |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1188
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:52:00 -
[76] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Battlecruisers, BC's
reading, folks. It does help.
any of you picturing quick jumps to get those darn snipers 100km off the gate?
m And what if they are 120km away instead, and have their own mjd? Then they better start spooling their MJD as soon as we start spooling ours, because it's not going to take more than 8 seconds to get into scram range and tackle one with a talos overheating the mwd and scram.
So you run mjd mwd longpoint scram sebo talos?
It has only 4 mids |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
402
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:53:00 -
[77] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:MMJD should be affected by long points and bubbles.
Reasons for this are already posted. WORD Make it so longpoints and bubbles disrupt MMJD (except on deep space transports, they need some kind of edge since they are so useless. Please don't break game CCP.
No. The whole point of the module is to get you outside of the bubble. It is not that hard to get a scram on something. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
20
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:53:00 -
[78] - Quote
if we could go back to warping at 10km from gates instead of 0km that would be great. |
ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors Get Off My Lawn
119
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:55:00 -
[79] - Quote
Looks amazing, do it, do it. Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now. Fly together, die together. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
570
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:55:00 -
[80] - Quote
I do NOT support at all this change.
The warp speed change (16s deceleration on grid, +the lock time. Any plated BS can warp off in 11s, meaning it's impossible to fight someone that is not AFK) and the removing of the tiers already nerfed a lot the battleship class.
The MJD is the only thing that allows them to still be usable, outside of big blobs. You can snipe with it, you can go ball deeps with it, you can force the opponent to get in scramble range to stop you.
Battlecruisers are much better than BS to fight into scramble range due to their medium guns.
This is a bad, bad idea. I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. -áI AM A LOWSEC GANKER, HIGHSEC SCUM, NULLSEC BASTARD, WORMHOLE INVADER. Welcome to, welcome to, welcome to my scramble. GÖŃ |
|
X4m
Revenge of the Liquidators The Marmite Collective
33
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:58:00 -
[81] - Quote
when small mjd? Stupid change |
Saul Elsyn
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
133
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 18:59:00 -
[82] - Quote
I think people that are complaining the most here are forgetting just how situationally based MJDs are. They're good for getting out of bubbles and escaping bombing runs, but that's about it... And they require a level of skill and situational awareness to use. Considering it's the smallest ships that are the ones most likely to die in a bombing run, good for CCP... in fact CCP, give em to cruiser hulls in general.
What's the Small Micro-Jump Drive going to be mounted on? Destroyers? Cruisers? HACs? HICs? Interdictors? Makes you wonder. |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:01:00 -
[83] - Quote
Gave it some thought, don't like the idea at all.
This will especially hurt the solo/kiting sort of guys who already have a hard time finding suitable fights ... |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1360
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:03:00 -
[84] - Quote
Saul Elsyn wrote:I think people that are complaining the most here are forgetting just how situationally based MJDs are. They're good for getting out of bubbles and escaping bombing runs, but that's about it... And they require a level of skill and situational awareness to use. Considering it's the smallest ships that are the ones most likely to die in a bombing run, good for CCP... in fact CCP, give em to cruiser hulls in general.
What's the Small Micro-Jump Drive going to be mounted on? Destroyers? Cruisers? HACs? HICs? Interdictors? Makes you wonder.
Waht? Require skill? Panick pressign a button then warpign to a station is NOT skill.
It will make solo and double team pvp even harder than it is now. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:03:00 -
[85] - Quote
Useless,unwanted and unbalanced module . |
Calsys
Monks of War
105
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:03:00 -
[86] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote:Gave it some thought, don't like the idea at all.
This will especially hurt the solo/kiting sort of guys who already have a hard time finding suitable fights ... its hard to find this fights now its impossible to find it later
great job!
DIE SOLO PVP! DIE!
facepalm.jpg |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1361
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:06:00 -
[87] - Quote
BTW, unrelated. .but MEDIUM MICRO or LARGE MICRO both are oximorons.. Find less dumb names than large small thing please. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:13:00 -
[88] - Quote
Fozzie ....
Do you play still at EVE ?
I am not sure.
CCP have try to balanced the ship since 2 years right now and with the three last patch and the new announcement your break completely the game.
Drone : Make modification on drone it's good idea, but when you authorise to use the damage mode on fighter and fighter bomber you are completely becoming to break the balance. That will be drone land.
Carrier was logistic ship not attack ship. Motherboard must be only anti capital ship.
Micro jump drive : You have introduce the micro jump drive, because you have make some modification on the probing, the probing have completely remove the snipe fleet. But in the same time you completely kill the disrupt and the bubble. The original problem is only the time we make to probe a fleet ...
Inty : Nullifier, again the main problem with inty was too weak. it's not difficult to understand why. If you give some bonus on ship without buffer, it's absolutely not efficient. Reduce the sig or add some bonus and resistance is only efficient when you have a minimum of buffer. The inty need only to have more buffer without penality on the speed to be more efficient. With the bonus on the nullifier you have began to broke the balancing. And again dictor and hid was less useful.
Eve become to be boring because not a lot of ship are slow (hull higher than BC). With the new hull of freighter that will be terrible.
Do you seriously play to EVE or do you seriously understand what is balancing.
|
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures Rim Worlds Protectorate
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
MJD on BS was a good idea, and I still support it.
This, is not for reasons already stated. If you must go through with it, can you buff the EHP of my ares? if I'm going to have to fly into scram range of everything, I'd at least like to pretend I can survive there.
|
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:25:00 -
[90] - Quote
Cancel subscribe. This is imbalance, you kill kite ships and ships with WarpDis. Nevermind. Non interdiction Tier3 BC fleet. CCP, change your drugdiller. Bye.
/me: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU~
GIF with my reaction. http://s.pikabu.ru/post_img/2013/02/05/8/1360067178_138842763.gif |
|
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
474
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:25:00 -
[91] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:BTW, unrelated. .but MEDIUM MICRO or LARGE MICRO both are oximorons.. Find less dumb names than large small thing please.
Micro refers to the jump. Medium/large refers to the size of the drive.
This is not an oxymoron.
You are a moron. No sig. |
Dr Jihad Alhariri
Fail Force 5 Corrosive.
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:26:00 -
[92] - Quote
I strongly oppose this mod as it currently stands.
As other posters have mentioned, Medium MJDs will only make good fights and ganks harder to find. We want gameplay options that expand PvP, not shrink it.
Eve already has a gratuitous amount of gameplay options that promote risk aversion and reduce PvP. We don't need more. |
Bosquit
Tempest Legion
66
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:26:00 -
[93] - Quote
Saul Elsyn wrote:I think people that are complaining the most here are forgetting just how situationally based MJDs are. They're good for getting out of bubbles and escaping bombing runs, but that's about it... And they require a level of skill and situational awareness to use. Considering it's the smallest ships that are the ones most likely to die in a bombing run, good for CCP... in fact CCP, give em to cruiser hulls in general.
What's the Small Micro-Jump Drive going to be mounted on? Destroyers? Cruisers? HACs? HICs? Interdictors? Makes you wonder.
Ok the thing about MJD's is they really aren't all that situational. Any Sniping platform will be easily able to use them, and lets be honest, most battlecruisers can be made into sniping ships, especially the Naga, etc. The attack Battlecruisers for the most part will not need an MWD, because burning with large long range guns is dumb. The MMJD allows them to reposition without warping ( at this point what is the point of probing down snipers, if they are aligned they warp, if they get caught and bubbled they MMJD). Other battlecruisers will have options to dual prop, which will reduce tank, but they are sniping ships so I mean tank is whatever most of the time.
Where you will see this being even more annoying is bricked tanked battlecruisers, just like the BS they will sit and tank and brawl, and if they want to leave, they just can, unless you have a swarm of frigates with scrams (which is generally suicide with medium guns.
The problem is that battlecruisers are fairly agile, and with MWD's battlecruisers are difficult to hold down. So what does this mod allow for gameplay, really just a lot of running away. The counters to it are too little to allow some sort of adequate counter to it, cause allowing one mod to stop it, is pretty bad for gameplay and variety. "Insert Philosophical Statement Here" |
DekTo2
Aquilia Cohors Praetoria Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:29:00 -
[94] - Quote
Terrible idea. |
ElextriX
Snuff Box
45
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:31:00 -
[95] - Quote
Welp what a horrible change. Small gang/Solo gets nerfed again. Battleships also getting indirectly nerfed. How about some development in tackle CCP?
This strategy of increasing survivability with so many ships is killing small gang pvp. As a solo/duo pvper it's very hard to find targets any more because most people can avoid combat in one of a billion ways.....and this is another step. I'm not even going to bother explaining the obvious problems with kiting after this change either. |
penifSMASH
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
418
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:38:00 -
[96] - Quote
Properly fit Attack Battlecruisers and Command Ships are really tight on PG and CPU, and MMJDs hog them up. You can't fit one without seriously gimping your fit in some other way. Everyone ITT is crying too much. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1859
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:39:00 -
[97] - Quote
Elise Randolph wrote:which is kind of annoying since catching people with their pants down is already a pain in the butt.
that made me giggle. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
355
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:40:00 -
[98] - Quote
T3 should have it First and RECON Ships and after that ok for BC but for BC make it very difficult to fit without sacrifing a lot of damage output RENAME WH systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome.
GalMIl>>ALL |
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
86
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:41:00 -
[99] - Quote
I'm just going to say that Attack battle-cruisers are already very hard to pin down. This will really only make it worse... It may be a good idea to look in to making it so ABCs can't use this MMJD.
Also the range and recharge time should be smaller, to that there is a distinct difference between battleship and battlecruiser combat. Something like 60km and 2min recharge would make things much more interesting. |
Bosquit
Tempest Legion
66
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:47:00 -
[100] - Quote
penifSMASH wrote:Properly fit Attack Battlecruisers and Command Ships are really tight on PG and CPU, and MMJDs hog them up. You can't fit one without seriously gimping your fit in some other way. Everyone ITT is crying too much.
It's a 15pg increase to a meta 10mn mwd, and 1 cpu. That is not a massive increase in fitting to cause a problem for people especially with genolutions and pg implants. At most you would lose a small amount of tank on some things, maybe a rig, or you meta a tank mod, it is not a serious "gimping" as you put it. "Insert Philosophical Statement Here" |
|
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
168
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:56:00 -
[101] - Quote
I've used large MJD a lot, and I can't wait to try these!
Though I think 50-75km jump range and 6-9 second spool-up would be more fun and balanced for everyone since battlecruisers already operate with more speed and shorter range. It would also keep it around the same jump-range:lock-range and align-time:spool-up-time ratio as battleships. |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 19:57:00 -
[102] - Quote
I think this is a terrible idea. It is really imbalanced. The last thing the super mobile Attack BCs need is more mobility.
However seeing how I doubt you will back out of this plan, can we reduce the range? Once of the nice things is that most BS could MJD and still be within lock range and still fire after they exited the MJD 100km away. Most combat BCs and such don't have the luxury of 100+KM lock and damage range. 65-75km should good. Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Joe Baarim
Baarim Industries
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 20:07:00 -
[103] - Quote
I like the idea of a MMJD for BCs, but only if it was shorter jump range. Around 50KM would be a good spot. And perhaps a shorter spool time.
100km is too beneficial to ABCs. Continue to force them to make tactical bookmarks or have scouts burning out to warp to if you want them hopping around sniping. 100km is also too long of range for combat BCs that would more than likely be hopping far outside of their ranges. Unless the plan is to only have it as an escape tool... which I do not agree with. |
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
346
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 20:14:00 -
[104] - Quote
another terrible idea. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1810
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 20:16:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cool, I like it. |
cBuHoIIac
SoT The Gorgon Empire
11
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 20:17:00 -
[106] - Quote
-ö-¦-¦-+-+-ď, -¦-+-Ĺ-é-î . -Ć-ď -ŕ-+-é-î -+-¦-Ç-¦-¦-é-¦ -¦ -ü-¦-+-Ä -+-¦-Ç-â -é-+? |
Airbender Princess
True Power Team
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 20:24:00 -
[107] - Quote
cBuHoIIac wrote:-ö-¦-¦-+-+-ď, -¦-+-Ĺ-é-î . -Ć-ď -ŕ-+-é-î -+-¦-Ç-¦-¦-é-¦ -¦ -ü-¦-+-Ä -+-¦-Ç-â -é-+? -¦ -+-¦-ŕ-â-Ĺ? -+ -é-¦-¦ -+-¦-¦-¦-+-ü-î! |
penifSMASH
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
418
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 20:28:00 -
[108] - Quote
Bosquit wrote:penifSMASH wrote:Properly fit Attack Battlecruisers and Command Ships are really tight on PG and CPU, and MMJDs hog them up. You can't fit one without seriously gimping your fit in some other way. Everyone ITT is crying too much. It's a 15pg increase to a meta 10mn mwd, and 1 cpu. That is not a massive increase in fitting to cause a problem for people especially with genolutions and pg implants. At most you would lose a small amount of tank on some things, maybe a rig, or you meta a tank mod, it is not a serious "gimping" as you put it.
It is a serious gimp if you dual prop mjd/mwd your command ships. Or in the case of tier 3 BCs they'll have to choose between an MWD or MJD, each of which has its advantages and disadvantages. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1333
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 20:29:00 -
[109] - Quote
thread temporarily locked for cleaning. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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maCH'EttE
Mafia Redux
112
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 21:51:00 -
[110] - Quote
this is absoultyly dumbest bull crap i have seen in eve. kill pvp even more. now you gonna have poeople jump like grasshoppers. YOU KILLIN EVE AND YOU DONT EVEN KNOW IT. |
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
353
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 21:54:00 -
[111] - Quote
so basically this is a buff to attack battlecruisers. STILL no point in flying normal bc's or commandships.
make attack bc's even harder to catch.
this could only work if they make scrams 70k or attack bc's cannot use these mods. otherwise. do not put this module in game.
absolution? 3 mids? so you gotta have a micro on the abso because its slow. then you gotta have a MJD. then your stuck with a point or an injector. no no no. |
Zakatka Night
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
214
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:01:00 -
[112] - Quote
-ü-â-+-¦-Ç -+-+-¦-â-+-+ -+-¦-¦-Ĺ -¦-+-¦-ü-ü -¦-¦-¦-ę-î -ä-¦-Ç-+ -+-¦ -+-¦-¦-¦ -+ -é-¦-¦-+-Ĺ-ë-+-¦ -+-+-ü--ä-Ç-+-¦-+ -¦-+-+-î-ę-¦ -+-¦ -ü-é-Ç-¦-ę-+-ď!
-¦ -¦ -+-¦-+ -+-+-ŕ-+ -+-¦-+-+ -ç-é-+ -+-+-+-¦-+-+-é-ü-Ĺ - -+-Ç-+-ü-é-+ -ü-¦-Ç-¦-¦-¦-+ -¦-â-¦-â-é -ä-+-é-+-é-î -ç-¦-ë-¦ -+ -ě-é-+ -¦ -+-â-ç-ę-¦-+-â!, -¦ -é-+ -+-Ç-+-¦-ď-¦-+-+ -¦-+-+-+-é-î -+-¦ 30-70 -¦-+ -+-¦ -¦-+-¦-+-¦-é-î -+-¦ -+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-Ç-+-é-î, -¦ -é-¦-¦ -+-+-+ -¦ -â-+-+-Ç -+-¦-é-+ -ü-¦-Ç-¦-+-¦-+-î -+-+-+ -¦-+-ü-¦-+-¦-¦-+-î-Ĺ |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5203
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:01:00 -
[113] - Quote
I really think the feedback in this thread sums up the feeling on an ABC having a MJD. I strongly recommend we wait on allowing the ABC to fit them. Give us 6 weeks with the medium MJD and then let's reexamine the idea of a MJD on ABC. Let's see what meta comes from the BC brawlers first. The Paradox |
Calsys
Monks of War
107
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:04:00 -
[114] - Quote
no brain no tactics
just stupid tank&dps
come ooooon
facepalm.jpg |
Tatter Fox
Easy FW Money
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:08:00 -
[115] - Quote
so instead of doing a proper balance patch you introduce another gimmicky module that most likely will break the balance even more.
standard BC's are not bad because they cant jump around like a battleship, they are bad because they are slow and cumbersome and barely do anything that a Cruiser cant do.
Breaking the balance and making Tornados and Sniping Nagas even more ridiculous with these modules will NOT fix the overall problem BC's have. But hey bread and games I guess right? Give the plebs something to play around with, might make them forget the other crap. |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
285
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:10:00 -
[116] - Quote
Can I have your stuff?
I support these changes. Yes, it will make tying down ships harder. So what? I welcome our new hit and run overlords. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
227
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:11:00 -
[117] - Quote
Chinicata Shihari wrote:Sounds good. Now my cruiser can ninja stuff You just proved the belief that everyone had that people jump in to give feedback before even reading the OP. |
Sladislov
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
40
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:15:00 -
[118] - Quote
Next up: "Dont want to fight module"
When your ship is in trouble activate this module and poof you will be 200km away from the fight, cloaked.
**** idea bring back old RLML 1908-420 -á-á-á-á-á-á Sladislov Director of Silly semantics -á-á-á-á-á-áBroksi Kurth -á-á xXxBlack LegionxXx |
Beatrice Ushiromiya
Worst Player Ever.
10
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:15:00 -
[119] - Quote
Either warp disruptors disable this module, and we are getting a way to enrich BC fleet tactics. Or it works the way large MJD works, and we are getting a cool getaway module for those who enjoy safe pvp. |
Zakatka Night
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
214
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:19:00 -
[120] - Quote
scrambl and 0 problem! |
|
Calsys
Monks of War
110
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:21:00 -
[121] - Quote
Zakatka Night wrote:scrambl and 0 problem! =tank vs dps no brain no tactics |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1367
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:22:00 -
[122] - Quote
Zakatka Night wrote:scrambl and 0 problem!
you dont get the simple pricnciple that this have removed the SINGLE reason to use a battleship?
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1066
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:29:00 -
[123] - Quote
Fozzie I really hope you take a good long time to think of the true implications this module will have. Holding nimble T3 BCs is already difficult enough with a long point, and will now be next to impossible. If you really wish to make T3 BCs relevant again, please consider giving them a 3.3 au/sec warp speed, or making their base speed faster. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1367
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:31:00 -
[124] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:Fozzie I really hope you take a good long time to think of the true implications this module will have. Holding nimble T3 BCs is already difficult enough with a long point, and will now be next to impossible. If you really wish to make T3 BCs relevant again, please consider giving them a 3.3 au/sec warp speed, or making their base speed faster.
Dont write T3 battlecruiser. First T3 measn TECH 3. Secodsn there is no more TIER 3 either. THey are attack bc. Makes confusiing to read and make peopel think you have no clue . "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1367
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:33:00 -
[125] - Quote
I just want the balance team to answer me HONESTLY and not with hypotheticaltheories that are completely disfunctional from the game reality. Why would anyone use A battleship instead of a BC oustside larger fleets when these changes are implemented?
And please for the love of eve.. do nto even THINK on giving these to cruisers as well! SPECIALLY tech 3 "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Anthar Thebess
413
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:35:00 -
[126] - Quote
I wonder when do we get to the point that there will be MJD for a shuttles.
Will all battles will look like hit & run?
Thats not nice |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2689
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:36:00 -
[127] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I really think the feedback in this thread sums up the feeling on an ABC having a MJD. I strongly recommend we wait on allowing the ABC to fit them. Give us 6 weeks with the medium MJD and then let's reexamine the idea of a MJD on ABC. Let's see what meta comes from the BC brawlers first.
You know better than that. This will be just like RLMLs. They'll **** it up and then have to come back and give a half-assed fix in six months or so. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
64
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:38:00 -
[128] - Quote
Once more.
Its amazing how pointless this make so many ships. Kiting is over, its just sad snipe or brawl. What recons will do I dont know.
Can you tell me what sense a long point makes on a ship? Why the hell fit it when half the ships you tackle just jump away.
Its just one of the worst things I have seen in F&I. |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
288
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:40:00 -
[129] - Quote
So, if I want to tackle an enemy command ship now I have to scram it and try brawling it down in my faster, more agile ship. Good idea m8. Clearly you guys are good at game design. To paraphrase Fozzie from fanfest regarding attempting to nano "do you even ram bro?".
This is an incredibly bad idea because of how worthless it makes longpoints and therefore any non committal form of PvP. Vs a nano gang you can now chase them forever in more heavily tanked brawling bcs without making any attempt to solve the issue of speed or range control because you aren't ever in any danger.
This idea is literally Stalin and unless significant changes are made to the MJD to stop the align/MJD/warpout combo it will be a colossal nerf to skill based pvp. |
General Nusense
Not Posting With My Main
180
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:43:00 -
[130] - Quote
worst
idea
ever
next to the freighter/jf changes. |
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
342
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:45:00 -
[131] - Quote
Also, is MJD still an experimental module? If it is, why does it have it's own skill book? If it's not, why doesn't it have a BPO? Also, the skill needs more balacing. It's a friggen rank 5 skill which from L4-L5 reduces activaation time by 0.6 seconds? Cmon!
P.S. Look what I found on TQ while writing this post:
Mobile Large Jump Disruptor I |
Firebolt145
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
80
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:55:00 -
[132] - Quote
Please don't implement this. |
Rattman
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
25
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:56:00 -
[133] - Quote
Should be fittable to logistics as well, logistics should be able to keep up with the battleships that they are supposed to be repping |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
288
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 22:58:00 -
[134] - Quote
Awesome new fit idea for fighting nano gangs. Basically you take a nado and fit it with dcu/odis in the lows, scram/mwd/mjd/2x LSE in the mids and you just hit approach and try and scram one of them. Now you're really quite quick, faster than any bcs they could have and most cruisers so you pose a significant threat to them with that scram because your gang is following right behind you waiting to pile on after that scram.
And then if they do everything perfectly, warp out when they're about to be scrammed, keep a long point on you the entire time, primary you etc and make zero mistakes then you write "gf" in local, switch your align and spool up.
Clearly this is the change pvp has been waiting for. I guess it coincides with the mordus scram range bonuses because longpoints are now only good for killing things that can just mwd away out of their range.
I shouldn't really need to spell this out because anyone who knows jack about PvP ought to learn this on day one but the way longpoints work is that they allow you to hold down a slower ship than yourself at range which creates a dynamic in which weaker groups can fight stronger groups through range control. This is the whole point of the module, you get to stop them warping out without brawling in exchange for not impacting their mobility, if you change that you might as well remove the disruptor from the game and all buttons except ram and f1 from the hud.
TLDR Currently if bigger than them, scram and brawl, if smaller than them but more agile/more pilot skill longpoint and nano Proposed change is if bigger than them, scram and brawl, if smaller than them but more agile/more pilot skill unsub
|
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1861
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:00:00 -
[135] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I really think the feedback in this thread sums up the feeling on an ABC having a MJD. I strongly recommend we wait on allowing the ABC to fit them. Give us 6 weeks with the medium MJD and then let's reexamine the idea of a MJD on ABC. Let's see what meta comes from the BC brawlers first.
Pretty much this. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1861
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:01:00 -
[136] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:What if a long point slowed down the spool time for the mjd giving you Time to get close enough to activate the scram?
Think of the warp inhibitors in sins of a solar empire There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1815
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:02:00 -
[137] - Quote
Yes the battlecruisers that are currently literally everywhere in pvp will become OP when they fit a second prop module with high fitting requirements that gimp their tank, dps, or both.
Honestly, it breathes new life into a class that hasn't seen significant action in a while. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1167
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:02:00 -
[138] - Quote
Well, it sounds very promising and fun to do! I especially like the fact that logistics aren't getting this, it would be a bit OP.
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
TAckermassacker
New Republic The Initiative.
51
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:17:00 -
[139] - Quote
BTW noone is gonna be suprised if combat recons will get them also. |
Varesk
Carried Hate
550
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:20:00 -
[140] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive!
This module will begin restricted to Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Deep Space Transports. We will consider expanding it to some other classes in the future but that is a discussion for after we've seen how they work out on these initial groups.
The MMJD uses the same Micro Jump Drive Operation skill as the LMJD and has the same range (100km), spool up (12s base reduced by the skill) and cooldown (3 minutes) as the Large version.
It has the following requirements: Powergrid: 165 CPU: 51 Capacitor: 197
We expect that these modules will be a very exciting option for battlecruisers (especially attack battlecruisers) in both fleets and small gangs.
Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
These modules will be on SISI for your testing pleasure soon. Let us know what you think!
Will you be buffing the PG on Blockade runners and Deep Space Transports? If I just want to fit a MJD and a cloak on my ship, I will have to add PG upgrades in the lows, which wont happen due to Cargo Capacity > All.
|
|
TehCloud
Mastercard. Swipe Here
230
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:21:00 -
[141] - Quote
Giving T3 BCs access to a MJD is horrible.
Giving Nados and Nagas, more mobility is going to end horribly. I think they are a good addition for DSTs though. My Condor costs less than that module! |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:22:00 -
[142] - Quote
Triple posting in the topic because of how absolutely awful this idea is.
Cruisers and frigs can already escape from longpoints using their speed, the whole point of longpoints is to hold down things that you can't brawl because they're bigger than you but which can't escape from them because you're faster and more agile than them. That is literally the module's role in this game.
You cannot give big slow ships a way of negating warp disruptors, starting with the biggest and working your way down, and if you think it's a good idea you have no clue what the purpose of warp disruptors in eve pvp is. If you absolutely must put it in the game it needs to be disabled by warp disruptors. It can then still be used as a mobility tool without ruining pvp. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:29:00 -
[143] - Quote
attack BC already get decent amount of agility then combat BC, |
i Beast
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
89
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:37:00 -
[144] - Quote
no brain no tactics |
Jin So
Sev3rance
14
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:40:00 -
[145] - Quote
This is a very bad idea! |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1816
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:50:00 -
[146] - Quote
ITT: kiters that think they should be the only ones that can disengage from a fight. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:50:00 -
[147] - Quote
Wouldn't a capital size version of this make more sense? |
Arla Sarain
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:50:00 -
[148] - Quote
Additionally to everything being said -
Whats up with ship specific modules? This corners them into particular set-ups, which diminishes the whole purpose of freedom of fitting. |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
293
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:54:00 -
[149] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:ITT: kiters that think they should be the only ones that can disengage from a fight. Because brawlers don't have enough advantages? Being able to disengage comes at a pretty huge price in terms of tank and damage which we gladly pay because it lets us be ambitious and aggressive with target selection instead of just blobbing things. If you must commit to kill something, which is what this suggestion is proposing, then you will only fight when you know 100% ahead of time that you will win because of numbers/logi. That is not a good thing for the game. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
215
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 23:56:00 -
[150] - Quote
well looks like we have Fozzie's surprise meta change for the AT. Someway to get those slow BC's and command ships used. *gets bucket of popcorn* |
|
Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1067
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:01:00 -
[151] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Liam Inkuras wrote:Fozzie I really hope you take a good long time to think of the true implications this module will have. Holding nimble T3 BCs is already difficult enough with a long point, and will now be next to impossible. If you really wish to make T3 BCs relevant again, please consider giving them a 3.3 au/sec warp speed, or making their base speed faster. Dont write T3 battlecruiser. First T3 measn TECH 3. Secodsn there is no more TIER 3 either. THey are attack bc. Makes confusiing to read and make peopel think you have no clue . Sorry, force of habit
Anyways, if CCP really wants to make BCs relevant in today's meta, they need to go back and give them a serious balance pass. When I spoke to Fozzie at fanfest, he said that not enough time has passed to see how BCs are performing, and that the 'metrics' show they are getting used plenty. In practice, however, in PVP I rarely see BCs used seriously, with exceptions being Oracles, Nados, and blob Nagas. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1816
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:02:00 -
[152] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:ITT: kiters that think they should be the only ones that can disengage from a fight. Because brawlers don't have enough advantages? Being able to disengage comes at a pretty huge price in terms of tank and damage So does fitting an extra prop mod in the form of an MJD.
X ATM092 wrote: it lets us be ambitious and aggressive with target selection instead of just blobbing things. And now brawlers have that same luxury.
X ATM092 wrote: If you must commit to kill something, which is what this suggestion is proposing. At least you can choose not to commit. The brawler doesn't have that luxury. Hell, even with the MJD, the scram brawler still commits to a fight in scram range.
X ATM092 wrote: then you will only fight when you know 100% ahead of time that you will win
Because there are no solo brawling ships anywhere in eve.
Basically it comes down to this. Kiters can choose not to commit. Then some targets may get away. Risk v. Reward. Brawlers can choose to gimp their tank/dps for the chance of maybe getting away from a kiter. Risk v Reward.
|
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
295
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:10:00 -
[153] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Liam Inkuras wrote:Fozzie I really hope you take a good long time to think of the true implications this module will have. Holding nimble T3 BCs is already difficult enough with a long point, and will now be next to impossible. If you really wish to make T3 BCs relevant again, please consider giving them a 3.3 au/sec warp speed, or making their base speed faster. Dont write T3 battlecruiser. First T3 measn TECH 3. Secodsn there is no more TIER 3 either. THey are attack bc. Makes confusiing to read and make peopel think you have no clue . Sorry, force of habit Anyways, if CCP really wants to make BCs relevant in today's meta, they need to go back and give them a serious balance pass. When I spoke to Fozzie at fanfest, he said that not enough time has passed to see how BCs are performing, and that the 'metrics' show they are getting used plenty. In practice, however, in PVP I rarely see BCs used seriously, with exceptions being Oracles, Nados, and blob Nagas. He also said that expecting damage from a hurricane at 20km was as absurd as expecting damage from a hurricane at 100km and that trying to kite with minmatar, the race built around speed and agility whose lore is dedicated to harassing the superior but slower amarr empire, was doing it wrong. This is not a man who has a clue. |
Eli Porter
Nanashi no Geemu
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:17:00 -
[154] - Quote
So what's supposed to catch and kill MJD Naga fleets? |
Calsys
Monks of War
112
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:22:00 -
[155] - Quote
Eli Porter wrote:So what's supposed to catch and kill MJD Naga fleets? interceptors with scrams which kill this fleet now lol |
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
351
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:31:00 -
[156] - Quote
actual man-hours were spent implementing this ****** idea. think about that. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1443
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:36:00 -
[157] - Quote
Why for DST's? If they are long-pointed, they are able to escape. if they are scrammed, they are boned anyway, so adding an MMJD is....tres pointless.
I also have some reservations about medium MJD's in toto. Shoot that which lieth before you and tackle that which runneth away - Ancient Minmatar proverb @_@ http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
297
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:39:00 -
[158] - Quote
Money Makin Mitch wrote:actual man-hours were spent implementing this ****** idea. think about that. Yeah but you just know if they weren't thinking of great ideas like making long points worthless they'd be adding 40 second reload timers to weapon systems that already work and are the only way of dealing with inties. |
Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1069
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:42:00 -
[159] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:He also said that expecting damage from a hurricane at 20km was as absurd as expecting damage from a hurricane at 100km and that trying to kite with minmatar, the race built around speed and agility whose lore is dedicated to harassing the superior but slower amarr empire, was doing it wrong. This is not a man who has a clue. Haha yeah I prompted that answer by referring to a laser-Cane out-DPSing an AC-Cane at 24km, with which he responded "well so would a mega beam laser Cane." Chessur and I simply hung our heads in disappointment. I believe Fozzie has a very jaded view on today's meta. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
297
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:45:00 -
[160] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:X ATM092 wrote:He also said that expecting damage from a hurricane at 20km was as absurd as expecting damage from a hurricane at 100km and that trying to kite with minmatar, the race built around speed and agility whose lore is dedicated to harassing the superior but slower amarr empire, was doing it wrong. This is not a man who has a clue. Haha yeah I prompted that answer by referring to a laser-Cane out-DPSing an AC-Cane at 24km, with which he responded "well so would a mega beam laser Cane." Chessur and I simply hung our heads in disappointment. I believe Fozzie has a very jaded view on today's meta. do you even brawl bro? eve is a social game, if you can't bring more guys than they have then you don't deserve to win, god
It's actually very reassuring to see that 95% of the responses in this topic are explaining in no uncertain terms why this is an awful idea. Although the implication of that is that Fozzie is now actually less aware of what the **** is going on than the average eve player which is a pretty scary concept for the future of this game. |
|
Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1069
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 00:49:00 -
[161] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:Liam Inkuras wrote:X ATM092 wrote:He also said that expecting damage from a hurricane at 20km was as absurd as expecting damage from a hurricane at 100km and that trying to kite with minmatar, the race built around speed and agility whose lore is dedicated to harassing the superior but slower amarr empire, was doing it wrong. This is not a man who has a clue. Haha yeah I prompted that answer by referring to a laser-Cane out-DPSing an AC-Cane at 24km, with which he responded "well so would a mega beam laser Cane." Chessur and I simply hung our heads in disappointment. I believe Fozzie has a very jaded view on today's meta. do you even brawl bro? eve is a social game, if you can't bring more guys than they have then you don't deserve to win, god It's actually very reassuring to see that 95% of the responses in this topic are explaining in no uncertain terms why this is an awful idea. Although the implication of that is that Fozzie is now actually less aware of what the **** is going on than the average eve player which is a pretty scary concept for the future of this game. I guess we'll be seeing Scorch nerfed soon for being "too flexible" when compared to Barrage I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1443
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:06:00 -
[162] - Quote
This is amazingly bad. AMAZINGLY BAD.
Everyone will fit these to their BC's in lowsec DED complexes, wormholes, lowsec gate camps, you name it.
If you are in, say, a wormhole, you fit am mMJD and the moment you see something on scan, you just light it and voila, you are 100km away from where you were. LOLOL. Fail.
Camping a gate and the gate guns are a bit pesky? Why, just fit an mMJD and sit 60km off the gate. 12s later, and voila, you have shed gate gun aggro and can warp back to 60km. Hello pathetic gate camps, again. Fail.
Or sit at zero on a gate, with a buddy in a linked Vigilant. With enough luck, you can just bail from the gate because the Vigilant can keep the scrammers at >9km forever, and you can just escape whenever you like. No point trying to long point anything anymore. Fail.
Ratting in low or null? Why, just fit an MJD. When you're sick of being at zero in a belt or anomaly, just align somewhere (can take all of 4s!) MJD and laugh at the ceptors trying to catch you. LOLOL. Fail.
The only counter to this is obviously the Mordus ships, which are OP as it is (except the barghest, which is a bucket of pus on par with the Nestor) or linked faction scrams out to 25km, and if you really want to bring back link abuseas a definite, necessary thing to even get a kill EVER, then fine.
This is such a bad idea, I honestly don't think you realise how stupid it is. This game is already so full of cowards and borderline broken ships/combos and frustrations. Making it impossible to get a kill, ever, will just pile frustration upon frustration and result in ever more boring, risk-averse PVping.
Sure, you'll have Cyna nano or Ishtar alpha kite gangs who'll kill anyone foolish enough to sit on field, but with these modules, no one has to sit on field. So thanks for countering them with coward drives.
I wonder if Fozzie has the courage to go back on this idea at all, given 95% of the feedback is completely negative? Man up, Fozzie. Shoot that which lieth before you and tackle that which runneth away - Ancient Minmatar proverb @_@ http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
300
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:15:00 -
[163] - Quote
[Myrmidon, mjd]
Medium Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Explosive Hardener II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Battlecruiser Micro Jump Drive
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Ogre II x3 Hammerhead II x2
First fit I came up with using this amazing new idea. Without any links or implants it can heat at 1.6k/s and, if it lands a scram and web (13km heated web) then it gets to brawl. It has 713 unheated dps and the ridiculous tank of a dual rep myrm. You can't solo brawl this ****, you can't scram it, the only option currently is to longpoint it and bring in a gang. Good work CCP Fozzie.
Fun fact, with armour links, drugs and heat that myrmidon can tank 1400 dps in addition to being able to apply perfect dps with its scram web, being very quick for a bc and being able to escape from infinite long points. |
The Cue
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
27
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:17:00 -
[164] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:This is terrible don't do this, you're making it increasingly easy to avoid combat in a game where picking a fight can already be an extreme challenge. I hate admitting that Grath is right, but Grath is right. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
613
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:18:00 -
[165] - Quote
Eli Porter wrote:So what's supposed to catch and kill MJD Naga fleets? MJD BC fleets? |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
300
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:23:00 -
[166] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: I wonder if Fozzie has the courage to go back on this idea at all, given 95% of the feedback is completely negative? Man up, Fozzie.
I would be very surprised if he does go back on it, he's never listened to reason before. It's not an issue of courage, rather Fozzie seems to genuinely believe he's good at this game and knows what he's doing. Until that delusion ends we're stuck in this hell. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1195
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:24:00 -
[167] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Eli Porter wrote:So what's supposed to catch and kill MJD Naga fleets? MJD BC fleets?
How does that catch the nagas? You mjd, they all warp. You need 100km lock range to be able to point stuff upon mjding, and you need a scram if you want to stop them from warping or using their own mjd.
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1195
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:25:00 -
[168] - Quote
The Cue wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:This is terrible don't do this, you're making it increasingly easy to avoid combat in a game where picking a fight can already be an extreme challenge. I hate admitting that Grath is right, but Grath is right.
I think the last balance change I agreed with grath on before this was the small nerf that domis took.
And we agree on this. |
Ersahi Kir
Fault Line Industries
390
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:32:00 -
[169] - Quote
I would have liked to see logistics get this module so a MJD fleet doctrine could be tried.
Oh well. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
613
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:38:00 -
[170] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Rowells wrote:Eli Porter wrote:So what's supposed to catch and kill MJD Naga fleets? MJD BC fleets? How does that catch the nagas? You mjd, they all warp. You need 100km lock range to be able to point stuff upon mjding, and you need a scram if you want to stop them from warping or using their own mjd. So you The bc mjd is basically either to make it harder to tackle snipers, because people shouldnt lose their ships just because they couldnt bother paying attention, or as a tool to straight up end a fight, and we all know that if there is one thing that people want less of in eve, its fights. send out tackle, if they warp off then thats no different than now, however if you do get a successful tackle you can now be there for the kill quickly. Either way these modules give you more options when it comes to maneuverability in gangs/fleets. Especially if you are smaller group than your opponent.
It's no longer a gaurunteed "they have disruptors/bubbles, there is no way for me to try and engage this group" It is now "They most likely have disruptors/bubbles lets warp in see what we can do and bug out"
If the FC has more escape options he may be more willing to engage in riskier endeavors. It's no longer a point/bubble = dead kind of world anymore.
People are more likely to take risks if they have ways to offset them. |
|
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
300
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:41:00 -
[171] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Rowells wrote:Eli Porter wrote:So what's supposed to catch and kill MJD Naga fleets? MJD BC fleets? How does that catch the nagas? You mjd, they all warp. You need 100km lock range to be able to point stuff upon mjding, and you need a scram if you want to stop them from warping or using their own mjd. So you The bc mjd is basically either to make it harder to tackle snipers, because people shouldnt lose their ships just because they couldnt bother paying attention, or as a tool to straight up end a fight, and we all know that if there is one thing that people want less of in eve, its fights. send out tackle, if they warp off then thats no different than now, however if you do get a successful tackle you can now be there for the kill quickly. Either way these modules give you more options when it comes to maneuverability in gangs/fleets. Especially if you are smaller group than your opponent. It's no longer a gaurunteed "they have disruptors/bubbles, there is no way for me to try and engage this group" It is now "They most likely have disruptors/bubbles lets warp in see what we can do and bug out" If the FC has more escape options he may be more willing to engage in riskier endeavors. It's no longer a point/bubble = dead kind of world anymore. People are more likely to take risks if they have ways to offset them. "People take more risks if the risks aren't risky anymore"
Might as well remove all forms of warp disruption from the game so people are more willing to take fights where they might lose their ships.
Honestly the day Riot poach Rise and Fozzie can't come soon enough, we've paid our dues here in EVE, why can't some other gaming community suffer them for a while. |
Lothras Andastar
Associated North American Lovers of Dolphins
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:45:00 -
[172] - Quote
Medium MJD should only shoot you 75km. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1195
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:46:00 -
[173] - Quote
Rowells wrote: send out tackle, if they warp off then thats no different than now, however if you do get a successful tackle you can now be there for the kill quickly.
Except the first thing they are going to do once longpointed is activate their own mjds.
|
LAMIA BR0N
Evanescence being
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:47:00 -
[174] - Quote
Terribly.
Battle into a "skipping rope"until you get bored or someone you sleep and not get caught scrambler.
If you think about fleets - how many days will now go such "skipping rope" big fleets in 0.0 with TD 80-90% is just terrible to imagine. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1819
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:31:00 -
[175] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: If you are in, say, a wormhole, you fit am mMJD and the moment you see something on scan, you just light it and voila, you are 100km away from where you were. LOLOL. Fail.
As opposed to just hitting a 150k+ bounce. Ok.
Trinkets friend wrote: Camping a gate and the gate guns are a bit pesky? Why, just fit an mMJD and sit 60km off the gate. 12s later, and voila, you have shed gate gun aggro and can warp back to 60km. Hello pathetic gate camps, again. Fail.
Yup, 12 seconds to mjd away or 8 seconds to warp to a 150k+ bounce off the gate. Hmmmmmm......
Trinkets friend wrote: Or sit at zero on a gate, with a buddy in a linked Vigilant.
And then a linked arazu/lachesis/keres comes in and scrams you from 30k+ while damping your ass. I can throw links around too.
Trinkets friend wrote: Ratting in low or null? Why, just fit an MJD. When you're sick of being at zero in a belt or anomaly, just align somewhere (can take all of 4s!) MJD and laugh at the ceptors trying to catch you. LOLOL. Fail.
As opposed to what happens now when a neut hits local? Honestly, most ratting ishtars can warp off faster then 12 seconds anyway.
Trinkets friend wrote: The only counter to this is obviously the Mordus ships
And the Arazu, Lachesis, Keres, and proteus. Oh we're forgetting about them? Well, that's convenient. |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
26
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:48:00 -
[176] - Quote
so much whine, I've run out of cheese.
This is a good idea, I still stand by what I said in my first post (page 1).
The only problem really when it boils down to it is the question "well, why use a battleship?" Other ship classes can out-tank, out dps, out maneuver battleships to the point of them being obsolete. With the added pressure from ISBoxing 1 man bomber squads, I fear for the future of the Battleship in combat.
The MJD was a niche the BS had over its counter-parts. Now however, I'm struggling to envision a reason to use a T1 BS at all.
BS are fat (mass), slow (align and warp speed, lock speed) that when fit for tank and spank output dps in the 600 range and an ehp in the 100-150k range. They are the most prone to bombing runs, the hardest to move from point a to point b and they hit like a wet paper bag.
Quote:A battleship is a large armored warship with a main battery consisting of heavy caliber guns. During the late 19th and early 20th centuries the battleship was the most powerful type of warship, and a fleet of battleships was vital for any nation which desired to maintain command of the sea.
It seems to me like the battleship should be able to use capital guns and just not siege. Tracking would make them terrible for anything small but as the mainly get used in large fleet combat based around structure bashing and capital kills I don't see a reason why they shouldn't have the option to fit large and X-Large weapons. |
Kelsi Monroe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:51:00 -
[177] - Quote
Another step away of non consensual pvp. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
614
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:57:00 -
[178] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:"People take more risks if the risks aren't risky anymore"
Might as well remove all forms of warp disruption from the game so people are more willing to take fights where they might lose their ships.
Honestly the day Riot poach Rise and Fozzie can't come soon enough, we've paid our dues here in EVE, why can't some other gaming community suffer them for a while. "people take risks if theres something they can do about those risks"
I'm not going to jump into a well if i have no way to get out. However if I bring something to help me get out, then away I go.
The risk before was, get tackled by the two easiest forms of tackle = dead. with options like this (granted not all ships need them) then there is a better chance for me. It is often because of this, that fleets will not even engage. Simply because you know it will be nothing but a a**pounding, which is no fun. |
Nano Sito
Out Of Pure Selfishness
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 03:38:00 -
[179] - Quote
Another genius idea by CCP Flossie. |
Esur A'saw Ti
Wont To Buy
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 04:18:00 -
[180] - Quote
Hey ccp, you know it's a good idea when most people that are mad about it are risk averse pirates !!!!! epik idea 10/10 will buy 10 more eve online accounts because of this |
|
Vlade Randal
Kenshin. Northern Coalition.
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 04:34:00 -
[181] - Quote
MMJD = Bad Idea |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
690
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 04:58:00 -
[182] - Quote
I'm still waiting for a proper attack BC nerf. we're talking 'T3 cruiser' levels of broken here. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 05:00:00 -
[183] - Quote
It makes you wonder with how hard CCP are making it to actually kill anything, particularly in small gangs whether this it is a deliberate business strategy as we all know the bears provide most of the subs.
Its become way too hard for solo and small gang roamers to get kills, and we all know how this module will largely be used.... as a means of escape or for positioning....such as through an acceleration gate and 100km off the beacon where it takes considerable time to be caught.
This progression towards PVP being consensual is worrying, and personally makes me wonder whether the effort is worth it anymore. It has become too time consuming and frustrating for too little reward to keep bothering with. |
Shade Millith
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
121
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 05:04:00 -
[184] - Quote
I do not like the idea of this.
Forcing smaller ships into web/scram/medium neut range just to be able to hold a target in place is going to make BC's stupidly powerful. |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
216
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 05:08:00 -
[185] - Quote
Omg the tears...ty for this fozzie, seriously man ty
I for one cant wait to slap one on my Abso and go roaming...if anything it allow more solo pvp activities to not diaf as often. Idk know what all these haters are talkin bout. Oderint Dum Metuant |
cBuHoIIac
SoT The Gorgon Empire
11
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 05:45:00 -
[186] - Quote
no brain no tactics |
Ralagina
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 06:00:00 -
[187] - Quote
CCP Stop killing pvp!
Enough make modules and not think how the will work
Im disappointed. |
Maennas Vaer
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
11
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 06:03:00 -
[188] - Quote
Think it's time to add some faction and deadspace MJD's please Fozzie.
NEEDS MOAR SHINEY! |
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
355
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 06:06:00 -
[189] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:Trinkets friend wrote: I wonder if Fozzie has the courage to go back on this idea at all, given 95% of the feedback is completely negative? Man up, Fozzie.
I would be very surprised if he does go back on it, he's never listened to reason before. It's not an issue of courage, rather Fozzie seems to genuinely believe he's good at this game and knows what he's doing. That's what makes him so dangerous to this game. quoted for the truth
Fozzie is a loose cannon |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5215
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 06:40:00 -
[190] - Quote
Money Makin Mitch wrote:X ATM092 wrote:Trinkets friend wrote: I wonder if Fozzie has the courage to go back on this idea at all, given 95% of the feedback is completely negative? Man up, Fozzie.
I would be very surprised if he does go back on it, he's never listened to reason before. It's not an issue of courage, rather Fozzie seems to genuinely believe he's good at this game and knows what he's doing. That's what makes him so dangerous to this game. quoted for the truth Fozzie is a loose cannon You guys are exaggerating. The vast majority of the changes Fozzie has done have been in the direction of drastically improving the game. Sure I am not for a medium MJD on ABCs but in no way am I going to declare all the changes Fozzie has made are bad.
I wish I was better at spreadsheets, graphs and numbers to illustrate why allowing a MJD on ABCs is bad. They are very fast. Do an amazing job of blapping small support while blazing towards an align point. Tackling one that has a MJD fit means your transversal will be even lower to get within scram range. The only thing that is fast enough to catch them, is that small support that will be ultra easy to blap.
Maybe some can show the hard numbers and pretty graphs to support that and Fozzie will take notice. The Paradox |
|
Terion Ceravie
Flames of Heaven
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 06:40:00 -
[191] - Quote
This sir, is not a welcomed addition to EVE. You are destroying the usefulness of the long point. The only reason why a long point is ever needed is to allow to hold something down where you dictate range and speed as your defense.
The heavier target still has options like ECM drones or the likes. What, you decided to go around solo in a fully armor tanked big slow baddie and decided not to bring anything to defend you against paper thin, fast and agile ships? Though.....
Seriously though, this is the death of nano cruiser gangs that use speed and agility, pvp skills and tactics to engage a on paper superior force. I guess leaving anything to skill is unwise?
Very disappointing, please stop this horrible change to our current meta.
Love that Myrm Mr. ATM. That's what I will be flying if this crazy change goes through. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1169
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 07:13:00 -
[192] - Quote
If really there was any balance needed around the MDJ -which is far from sure-, I'd suggest that if the target is long pointed while activating the MJD, it is then unable to warp for 30 seconds after the module cycle ends.
You keep the MJD useful, but you keep long points relevant.
But honestly I don't see why the MMJD is a bad thing. It comes with high fitting-requirements and the cost of a medslot. I don't know what you guys are thinking but if you just believe that ABC fleets will be the same WITH the ability to MJD, you're dead wrong. Because they'll have to make both a fitting AND a slot compromise... Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
Gregor Parud
495
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:16:00 -
[193] - Quote
I'm not so sure about this Fozzie, I can understand what logic you're following and to a certain extend I agree with it (death to kiting, if you want to kill people you'll have to commit to a fight) but giving MJD to ABC will result in the exact opposite. CBC I can understand but I'm kinda worried they'll become OP again as I'm really liking how NOT having BC overpower everything created a much more diverse universe. |
lappeen Rannasta
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:21:00 -
[194] - Quote
worst idea since sliced bread |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9918
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:24:00 -
[195] - Quote
Holy **** this game is starting to feel gimmicky as ****. Please don't release this module. The entire benefit of the LMJD is that it gave battleships a unique mobility advantage that no other class had, which made up for the fact that they're absolutely terrible in every other mobility aspect.
It seems like you're just releasing stuff because you think it'll be fun to play with, not because it'll actually be balanced and beneficial to the game. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
334
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:27:00 -
[196] - Quote
This is a horrible idea.
I can't understand why you feel that BCs and ABC's need this change. The reason why BC's are **** as a ship class, is because they are so slow, and do comparable DPS to cruisers at range. they are horribly slow in Warp (warp speed changes were a horrible idea to begin with). This quick fix MJD is a horrible idea, as it makes long pointing completely useless to another entire class of ships.
Do some balance work and number tweaking, fix BCs the right way, and don't give ABC's snipers more escape options. Using this gimmicky mod is not the fix that EvE or the PvP player base deserves. I know that there are better ideas out there. Please explore them. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9918
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:28:00 -
[197] - Quote
You might as well just start phasing bubbles out of the game if you're going to give every ship MJDs which it looks like you're going to do at this rate. The logical extension of you making the terrible decision to allow battlecruisers use of this module is the terrible decision of allowing cruisers, HACs, T3s, logi, and smaller ships as well. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:30:00 -
[198] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Holy **** this game is starting to feel gimmicky as ****. Please don't release this module. The entire benefit of the LMJD is that it gave battleships a unique mobility advantage that no other class had, which made up for the fact that they're absolutely terrible in every other mobility aspect.
It seems like you're just releasing stuff because you think it'll be fun to play with, not because it'll actually be balanced and beneficial to the game.
THIS!
Just because somethign is nice somewhere does nto mean it should be everywhere! Just because a lot of soft fur is nice on my dog does not mean it will be nice on my girlfriend as well!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
87
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:35:00 -
[199] - Quote
Vivianne Athonille wrote:Will Command Ships also include the Industrial Command Ship (Orca) ?
This is actually a really good idea. Tho maybe just give it a LMJD, so that you have to decide on 100mn mwd or the MJD . |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:36:00 -
[200] - Quote
Bland Inquisitor wrote:
It seems to me like the battleship should be able to use capital guns and just not siege. Tracking would make them terrible for anything small but as the mainly get used in large fleet combat based around structure bashing and capital kills I don't see a reason why they shouldn't have the option to fit large and X-Large weapons.
No they dont. The definition of battleship you are usign is exaclty the definitionof a Dreadnought.
Battleships just need to be made WORTHthe reduced mobility and accuracy they have!!
Non drone battleships (because the droen ones already can fight pretty well smaller ships) need to be able to deal damage better on smaller ships OR they must have their raw dps number way higher!!
As of now there is no reason to bring a battleship even when shoting a POCO!!! Even there is better to bring a talos!!
Battleships are the most overshadowed class of ships in this game.
Inthe past in this game when we heard a fleet was comming we alwyas gotinformed how many batleship they had, because that was the main measurement of their power. Now if we listen someone is bringing lots of battleships we laugh histerically .
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:14:00 -
[201] - Quote
Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:19:00 -
[202] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point.
AGAIn. WAKE UP. Its not that they will be uncatchable! THe problem is that They will make even harder to hunt solo and now there will be NO REASON TO USE A BATTLESHIP!! How hard is to understand that?
Sicne when you hunt solo with a scram a disruptor a web AND a combat probe laucnher? Heh?
Ihate when people that never even tried to hunt a ship speak such nonsenses. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
105
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:20:00 -
[203] - Quote
Bosquit wrote:penifSMASH wrote:Properly fit Attack Battlecruisers and Command Ships are really tight on PG and CPU, and MMJDs hog them up. You can't fit one without seriously gimping your fit in some other way. Everyone ITT is crying too much. It's a 15pg increase to a meta 10mn mwd, and 1 cpu. That is not a massive increase in fitting to cause a problem for people especially with genolutions and pg implants. At most you would lose a small amount of tank on some things, maybe a rig, or you meta a tank mod, it is not a serious "gimping" as you put it.
Without implants a full gank Tornado with 1400's has 40cpu and 50PG to spare, use 2 MACR instead of one and we can fit it easily. 1200's and tank is fittable. This is really disturbing. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9920
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:21:00 -
[204] - Quote
Here's a thought. Keep LMJD the same, make MMJD shut off with warp disruption as well as warp scramble, including warp disruption fields. MMJD will still be a very powerful module but it at least it won't be stupid. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Samuel Nathas
The Disciples of Hasselhoff
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:21:00 -
[205] - Quote
IMHO that is why Mordus ships are being introduced, with their bonuses to scram and warp disruptor range. Also, you have Arazu, Lachesis, and Proteus. Remember them? All the ships mentioned above are ships that have bonuses on scram range.
So why don't you use them?
Also, another point... All the ships mentioned have faster warp speed than BC's - do you all see that as a weakness or strength? They can intercept the BC's. And one last point - fleets can warp together using the speed of the slowest ship, or they could free burn or free jump or whatever they need to do (especially tacklers) to go and catch the target and intercept it. Fleet diversity - tackle wise.
|
lappeen Rannasta
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:26:00 -
[206] - Quote
Samuel Nathas wrote:IMHO that is why Mordus ships are being introduced, with their bonuses to scram and warp disruptor range. Also, you have Arazu, Lachesis, and Proteus. Remember them? All the ships mentioned above are ships that have bonuses on scram range.
So why don't you use them?
Also, another point... All the ships mentioned have faster warp speed than BC's - do you all see that as a weakness or strength? They can intercept the BC's. And one last point - fleets can warp together using the speed of the slowest ship, or they could free burn or free jump or whatever they need to do (especially tacklers) to go and catch the target and intercept it. Fleet diversity - tackle wise.
the fabled solo arazu appears |
Colman Dietmar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:28:00 -
[207] - Quote
This is incredibly awesome! I wish the cooldown was a little shorter though, so that we could use it more than once per average fight. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9921
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:29:00 -
[208] - Quote
Colman Dietmar wrote:This is incredibly awesome! I wish the cooldown was a little shorter though, so that we could use it more than once per average fight. What the **** is wrong with you "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Jasmine Assasin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
165
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:32:00 -
[209] - Quote
I think the MMJD is an awesome idea, since anything bigger than a cruiser has taken a huge hit to mobility recently this should help level the field again.
Can't wait to try these out. |
Ralagina
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:32:00 -
[210] - Quote
Looks like i can trash my Phobos. Thank a lot Mr. Idobalancebyleftheel
Script? Long disruptor? Bubble? Never hear about that, i dont want think, i want press F2 and MJD at 100km if something wrong
RIP fun mixed format PvP |
|
Sullen Bear
Arctic Spirit
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:42:00 -
[211] - Quote
CCP please stop to destroy game mechanics. New modules must not be introduced just because they are "looks fun". IMHO we don't need MMJD. Instead of this I think it will be good decision to remove some stupid mobile structures like Mobile Micro Jump Units and Mobile Scan Inhibitors. This magic devices are destroy the game mechanic too. |
Kaeda Maxwell
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
301
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:43:00 -
[212] - Quote
Samuel Nathas wrote:IMHO that is why Mordus ships are being introduced, with their bonuses to scram and warp disruptor range. Also, you have Arazu, Lachesis, and Proteus. Remember them? All the ships mentioned above are ships that have bonuses on scram range.
So why don't you use them?
Also, another point... All the ships mentioned have faster warp speed than BC's - do you all see that as a weakness or strength? They can intercept the BC's. And one last point - fleets can warp together using the speed of the slowest ship, or they could free burn or free jump or whatever they need to do (especially tacklers) to go and catch the target and intercept it. Fleet diversity - tackle wise.
Because Arazu's, Lachesis & Proteus are all non-viable for kiting comps, the first two literally align slower then several battleships do (even when you fit nano's) the latter is slightly less terrible in that department but all three ships in addition to not being very nimble have horrible speed. And thus are not viable in a kiting comp as they can't keep up with the rest of the fleet.
The new Mordus ship are different, but you'd have to fit a domination scram to get workable range and even then you'll be forcing them into a range envelope kiting ships don't really want to be in.
The Keres would probably be the best choice actually in such a scenario, but killing those when you have several ABC's on field is trivial if you know what you are doing. |
Davader
Space Cleaners The Gorgon Empire
54
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:45:00 -
[213] - Quote
This idea is not the worst one, but it's very close to be it.
It would be only workable if MJD begins to be affected by mobile bubbles, interdictors and heavy interdictors. Having just an immunity to warp disruptors would be just fine.
What's next? Small MJD?? You're mad. |
dijy ru
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:45:00 -
[214] - Quote
The regime of total escape from the battle can make this game more attractive pvp? MJD invented coward |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
690
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:47:00 -
[215] - Quote
now I'll just fit a tank to my lache-
not that I like recon bonuses anyway, tackle range is grossly overpowered when it's on usable ships. |
lastriko1
V O O D O O KUTANG KLAN.
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:50:00 -
[216] - Quote
nooooo!!! -1 |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
615
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:59:00 -
[217] - Quote
This is a very, very, VERY bad idea. Just give DSTs the ability to use Large MJD and that's it. |
Firebolt145
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
83
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:07:00 -
[218] - Quote
Taking bets on whether this module makes it live despite the feedback in this thread. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9925
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:09:00 -
[219] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote:Taking bets on whether this module makes it live despite the feedback in this thread. I'd bet a billion isk that it would but nobody would be stupid enough to bet against. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:21:00 -
[220] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. AGAIn. WAKE UP. Its not that they will be uncatchable! THe problem is that They will make even harder to hunt solo and now there will be NO REASON TO USE A BATTLESHIP!! How hard is to understand that? Sicne when you hunt solo with a scram a disruptor a web AND a combat probe laucnher? Heh? Ihate when people that never even tried to hunt a ship speak such nonsenses.
Its hardly a deal breaker for BS. There are far bigger issues there.
And solo? Really? When has it ever been a good excuse in EVE to say "I can't solo xxx?"
Honestly, the amount of tears that someone might not be obligated to roll over and pop for people is ludicrous. The real irony being the solution here is either/both of: Bring friends/adapt. You know, the ones rolled out every time someone gets ganked.
For the life of me I cannot grasp the sense of entitlement that people have as if it's their right to kill people with impunity and the notion they might escape is nothing short of heresy. |
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
140
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:36:00 -
[221] - Quote
WTH? how came up with this stupid idea? never stop surprising me how little you guys know about your own game, but i must say you are doing this more and more lately. this basically make distruptors uselles and scrambler will become mandatory on any fleet fitings; and if, on bs case you could burn after them with a fast inty, that's not the case with a bc... really wtf.....
What will be the role of dictors after that? bubling cruiser and frigate fleets? really? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
227
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:40:00 -
[222] - Quote
People complaining about this change are doing so simply because they don't like change. This will throw the current meta up into the air and when it lands the game will be a lot more fun and interesting as a result. Looking forward to seeing what is possible |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:43:00 -
[223] - Quote
Holy ****! |
Aiphona
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:45:00 -
[224] - Quote
gascanu wrote:WTH? how came up with this stupid idea? never stop surprising me how little you guys know about your own game, but i must say you are doing this more and more lately. this basically make distruptors uselles and scrambler will become mandatory on any fleet fitings; and if, on bs case you could burn after them with a fast inty, that's not the case with a bc... really wtf.....
What will be the role of dictors after that? bubling cruiser and frigate fleets? really?
I agree,
MJD's are really ruining the game for lots of people. Especially solo kiting hunters. You are making warp disruptors USELESS!!! All you are gonna see is Sniping ABC's that are gonna sit at range with almost no risk of being tackled. The best way to catch these was with a overheated long point on a fast frigate.
Also this will make Interdictors in 0.0 more useless then they already are.
DONT DO THIS TERRIBLE IDEA CCP!!! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
227
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:53:00 -
[225] - Quote
Aiphona wrote:Also this will make Interdictors in 0.0 more useless then they already are. Lazy gate campers now have to work for their kills rather than simply setting up an interdictor. Fozzie, these carebear pvp'r tears are wonderful, excellent job on these changes. :) |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
227
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:55:00 -
[226] - Quote
Aurora Fatalis wrote:100km seems a little too strong for a battlecruiser, considering their superior agility over battleships and the limited engagement range for combat BCs.
With a 50 km range, for example, a Prophecy doesn't jump out of its drone control range, making it more a combat mobility tool than an escape mechanism. You could close in on a kiting Ishtar, for example... :D Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the range was reduced. The one problem is this overlaps with BS's somewhat. 50km isn't enough though, 75km would be probably about right. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
227
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:59:00 -
[227] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:MMJD should be affected by long points and bubbles.
Reasons for this are already posted. WORD Make it so longpoints and bubbles disrupt MMJD (except on deep space transports, they need some kind of edge since they are so useless). Please stop with these stupid knee jerk suggestions. You would break much more stuff than the imaginary problem you are trying to fix by doing something as stupid as this. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:04:00 -
[228] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. AGAIn. WAKE UP. Its not that they will be uncatchable! THe problem is that They will make even harder to hunt solo and now there will be NO REASON TO USE A BATTLESHIP!! How hard is to understand that? Sicne when you hunt solo with a scram a disruptor a web AND a combat probe laucnher? Heh? Ihate when people that never even tried to hunt a ship speak such nonsenses. Its hardly a deal breaker for BS. There are far bigger issues there. And solo? Really? When has it ever been a good excuse in EVE to say "I can't solo xxx?" Honestly, the amount of tears that someone might not be obligated to roll over and pop for people is ludicrous. The real irony being the solution here is either/both of: Bring friends/adapt. You know, the ones rolled out every time someone gets ganked. For the life of me I cannot grasp the sense of entitlement that people have as if it's their right to kill people with impunity and the notion they might escape is nothing short of heresy.
You are amazing.. you attacked your own argument without even noticing. Jsut try to re read yourself until you notice the level of dumbness on what you posted. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:06:00 -
[229] - Quote
Aiphona wrote:gascanu wrote:WTH? how came up with this stupid idea? never stop surprising me how little you guys know about your own game, but i must say you are doing this more and more lately. this basically make distruptors uselles and scrambler will become mandatory on any fleet fitings; and if, on bs case you could burn after them with a fast inty, that's not the case with a bc... really wtf.....
What will be the role of dictors after that? bubling cruiser and frigate fleets? really? I agree, MJD's are really ruining the game for lots of people. Especially solo kiting hunters. You are making warp disruptors USELESS!!! All you are gonna see is Sniping ABC's that are gonna sit at range with almost no risk of being tackled. The best way to catch these was with a overheated long point on a fast frigate or inty. Also this will make Interdictors in 0.0 more useless then they already are. DONT DO THIS TERRIBLE IDEA CCP!!!
They were nto a problem on battleships because battleships were EXTREMELY weak targets on this situation before. And they are usually very easy to tank by orbiting even when webbed at 1km (so kitting a battleship is not needed).
What pisses me is , why would I bring a battleships now (except the domi and geddon) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
230
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:12:00 -
[230] - Quote
[Proposal]
Skill - Micro Jump Drive Calibration (5% per level to micro jump drive jump range)
MMJD - 60km base range
MJD - 100km base range
MJD - 125km total range
MMJD - 75km total range
I think this is essential to keep BS's competitive, it would give them a strong edge over BCs, and 125km would fall nicely into BS sniping range. |
|
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:14:00 -
[231] - Quote
The one ship class that would benefit massively from this module is Logistics Cruisers (T2).
Being able to keep up with an MJDing battleship fleet would be fantastic for logi boats, assuming they had the fitting to be able to use one of these modules as well as an AB.
I personally hate the idea of putting these on command ships and battlecruisers - those ships really aren't hurting for manueverability when fitted right.
|
Ralagina
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:15:00 -
[232] - Quote
Medalyn Isis Its very important notices from pilot with board like that.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1583870
MJD - no need! |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
692
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:17:00 -
[233] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:[Proposal]
Skill - Micro Jump Drive Calibration (5% per level to micro jump drive jump range)
MMJD - 60km base range (75km total range)
MJD - 100km base range (125km total range)
I think this is essential to keep BS's competitive, it would give them a strong edge over BCs, and 125km would fall nicely into BS sniping range. You could just do this without the need for a skill to be honest.
that's two proposals |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
444
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:18:00 -
[234] - Quote
These are going to be pretty tough to fit you know!
Especially trying to dual prop it with an MWD.
It think these will be just fine to be honest. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
692
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:18:00 -
[235] - Quote
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:The one ship class that would benefit massively from this module is Logistics Cruisers (T2).
Being able to keep up with an MJDing battleship fleet would be fantastic for logi boats, assuming they had the fitting to be able to use one of these modules as well as an AB.
I personally hate the idea of putting these on command ships and battlecruisers - those ships really aren't hurting for manueverability when fitted right.
logistics cruisers are actually immensely overpowered, fyi |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:23:00 -
[236] - Quote
It's not so medium then is it? You just crammed it in a battlecruiser. |
Shade Millith
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
123
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:23:00 -
[237] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Omg the tears...ty for this fozzie, seriously man ty
I for one cant wait to slap one on my Abso and go roaming...if anything it allow more solo pvp activities to not diaf as often. Idk know what all these haters are talkin bout.
It's a bit harder to solo roam when any ship you find might simply be able to leave when you engage. This actually makes it more difficult for solo roaming.
So the choice becomes either fit a point and lose your targets to a jump out, or fit a scram and get web/scrammed in return and killed by bait.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2139
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:23:00 -
[238] - Quote
MJD's are fine on BS's because they are slow as balls otherwise.. I dont' really see a good reason to allow them on BC's other than allowing a wave of hyper annoying aBC gangs.. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Gregor Parud
495
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:25:00 -
[239] - Quote
CCP: "We're going to nerf mobility on BC because atm they're way too powerful and make the pvp landscape rather limited and boring"
players: "YOU CAN'T DO THIS, IT WILL COMPLETELY MESS UP MY CANE BACKBONE... err THE GAME! DOOM, HORROR, CTHULHU. YOU'll BREAK THIS GAME SO MUCH IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY BECAUSE I CAN'T COMPREHEND THE RESULTS OF THIS CHANGE AND COMING UP WITH ADAPTATIONS SOUNDS LIKE EFFORT!"
:changes happen, some time passes and ppl adapt:
players: "hey, this is actually nice. Now we can fly funky cruisers and frigs because they're not made redundant anymore by Canes and Drakes. Pretty cool tbh"
CCP: "We're going to give BC a specific niche by giving it MJD because we feel that kiting (just like the old nano age and WCS) means that people can fight without having to commit to it, that's just not right. This way BC aren't able to keep up with fast roaming gangs but on the up side they can force you to commit to a fight if you want to kill them"
players: "YOU CAN'T DO THIS, THIS COMPLETELY MESSES UP MY BUBBLE/KITE err... THE GAME! DOOM, HORROR, CTHULHU AGAIN WTF"
people who have a clue: "well, it's a bit weird but sure, I can see where you're going with that but please, CBC only. Not ABC"
History repeats itself, again and again.
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
230
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:30:00 -
[240] - Quote
I would be hesitant to fit one on an ABC anyway. It uses up too much PG, CPU and fitting. Pre aligning will still be the preferred choice for a competent ABC pilot in my opinion. I'd rather use a regular MWD. It would be quite nice for jumping and maintaing a lock on approaching interceptors though. I can see a niche for it but I don't think it will be as dominant as some people think. |
|
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
358
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:30:00 -
[241] - Quote
My Damnation will reap a bloody HAMvest with this. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
624
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:30:00 -
[242] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Rowells wrote: send out tackle, if they warp off then thats no different than now, however if you do get a successful tackle you can now be there for the kill quickly.
Except the first thing they are going to do once longpointed is activate their own mjds. then don't use a long point |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:33:00 -
[243] - Quote
ABC Easy as 1 2 3 Or simple as M M J D
|
Theon Severasse
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
68
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:39:00 -
[244] - Quote
Bad idea, while it will be tough to fit on a majority of BCs, ABCs will find it extremely easy to fit one, while sacrificing very little. Sniping fits that previously had an MWD on will be able to switch to these without really having to change anything about their fits. Unless the current problems with MJDs are fixed (Align, MJD, Warp) these should not even be close to being on the drawing board.
Battlecruisers (excluding ABCs) are in dire need of a buff, but this is not it. They currently cost about 3x that of a cruiser, and yet typically do not do more DPS, and have less maneuverability to boot. Lack of adequate powergrid/CPU compounds this problem. These are the problems that should be being dealt with, not adding in modules that make significant elements of the game irrelevant (Bubbles, Hic Points, Long Points, even Mobile MJDs). |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2139
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:42:00 -
[245] - Quote
I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Gregor Parud
496
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:47:00 -
[246] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk.
:)
|
Shade Millith
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
123
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:49:00 -
[247] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:CCP: "We're going to give BC a specific niche by giving it MJD because we feel that kiting (just like the old nano age and WCS) means that people can fight without having to commit to it, that's just not right given that these BC tend to be fairly slow compared to other ships. This way BC aren't able to keep up with fast roaming gangs but on the up side they can force you to commit to a fight if you want to kill them"
players: "YOU CAN'T DO THIS, THIS COMPLETELY MESSES UP MY BUBBLE/KITE err... THE GAME! DOOM, HORROR, CTHULHU AGAIN WTF"
Maybe people should be concerned when the ability to kite is being removed?
My favorite solo PVP ships are brawling BCs, and this change could benefit me greatly. I've already worked out a nice fit for a HAMDrake with a MWD and MMJD. Basically either you fly within range of my web/scram/730DPS/63kEHP and have a scram fitted, or I'm just simply going to leave when I wish to.
And yet I still don't think it's a good idea.
|
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
105
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:52:00 -
[248] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:MMJD should be affected by long points and bubbles.
Reasons for this are already posted. WORD Make it so longpoints and bubbles disrupt MMJD (except on deep space transports, they need some kind of edge since they are so useless). Please stop with these stupid knee jerk suggestions. You would break much more stuff than the imaginary problem you are trying to fix by doing something as stupid as this.
Break what? The module is not even implemented yet, there is nothing to break.
MEDIUM MJD should not be implemented in the first place. |
Tek Handle
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
52
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:54:00 -
[249] - Quote
If you introduce that module, you'll also have to give us a bubble variant which is able to hold them. Perhaps, a 5 minute cycle time but be able to fit a 2nd normal bubble to a Dictor, still. Seriously this module will totally imbalance Tier3 BCs. Another option would be to not allow Tier3 BCs to fit an MJD! You won't see Battleships in medium to large scale engagements anymore, because.. Tier3 BCs have likely the same damage and get an even easier GTFO option (added to their already great mobility), in fact they're decent right now so why give them such a huge advantage? MJD on a Command Ships or DSPT, good thing! |
Gregor Parud
496
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:55:00 -
[250] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:CCP: "We're going to give BC a specific niche by giving it MJD because we feel that kiting (just like the old nano age and WCS) means that people can fight without having to commit to it, that's just not right given that these BC tend to be fairly slow compared to other ships. This way BC aren't able to keep up with fast roaming gangs but on the up side they can force you to commit to a fight if you want to kill them"
players: "YOU CAN'T DO THIS, THIS COMPLETELY MESSES UP MY BUBBLE/KITE err... THE GAME! DOOM, HORROR, CTHULHU AGAIN WTF" Maybe people should be concerned when the ability to kite is being removed? My favorite solo PVP ships are brawling BCs, and this change could benefit me greatly. I've already worked out a nice fit for a HAMDrake with a MWD and MMJD. Basically either you fly within range of my web/scram/730DPS/63kEHP and have a scram fitted, or I'm just simply going to leave when I wish to. And yet I still don't think it's a good idea.
I'm not saying it's a buff the BC need but at the same time I can see the logic behind it. There's kity fast moving frigs and cruisers that can aggress and de-aggress at will, this makes slower ships pretty much useless and brings us back to square one. With this change BC will have their own form of kiting where faster cruisers have choice; avoid it or commit to the fight, and they HAVE that choice because a BC simply can't force themselves onto a frig or cruiser (assuming non-idiots). So it's a defensive measure where BC can go "sure I'm slower, but I'm still viable in my own right. You want to kill me? Come and get it".
It's a crude solution (where arguably none is needed) and possibly a precedent resulting in more and more MJD ships but from a strategy/gameplay POV it makes good sense. |
|
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
592
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:00:00 -
[251] - Quote
MJD'ing railferoxes without regular propmod EVERYWHERE. That's what MJDs imply. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
|
Theon Severasse
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
68
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:04:00 -
[252] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk.
Really?
They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more.
I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs.
You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
693
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:08:00 -
[253] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk. Really? They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs. You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight.
you're making this up, aren't you. and unpopular doesn't mean bad. |
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:23:00 -
[254] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:
They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more.
I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs.
You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight.
I recommend that you fit some battlecruisers and then do some PVP in EVE Online. This will allow you get some experience and avoid making clueless posts like this.
Tons of people use battlecruisers - solo and in gangs. Solo and small gang groups of cyclones/myrmidons are a scary thing, and perform very well with ancillary boosters/reppers.
I also hear that one or more people are fans of the Drake. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2140
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:25:00 -
[255] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk. Really? They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs. You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight.
BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Gregor Parud
497
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:28:00 -
[256] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk. Really? They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs. You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight.
"I Choose to only fight idiots and base my statements on those scenarios, also I exaggerate quite a bit".
|
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
129
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:38:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities. The problem of BC is the OP status of bomber wings. BS can survive waves and cruisers can either run or are so cheap that it doesn't matter if they die. As long as the bomber squads are so effective a 3 min MJD with a 9.6 sec spool up time will not help the situation. Follow me on twitter: @ForlornW Follow my blog: http://crossingzebras.com/author/forlorn-wongraven |
Claud Tiberius
37
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:53:00 -
[258] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Battlecruisers, BC's
reading, folks. It does help.
any of you picturing quick jumps to get those darn snipers 100km off the gate?
m You just blew my mind. Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
444
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:00:00 -
[259] - Quote
Wow. Just wow!
This is the best thread that has ever existed.
The nonsensical tears are so so sweet.
I want this to go on and on.
I'm gonna make some more popcorn, light the bbq and take my laptop outside with a beer to watch this thread as it is so ******* entertaining.
[On Topic Bit]
These modules are a good idea.
**Spugg Galdon lathers himself in flame retardant semen |
Gerdan BloodELF
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:00:00 -
[260] - Quote
Not a huge fan of this module to be honest. Kind of helps kill off even further something that I love which is range control ships such as vagabonds. Please reconsider these changes. |
|
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:03:00 -
[261] - Quote
Hey, DEVs, what do you think about interdiction of warp for Tier3? 10sec and we at 80km from bubble, one the optimal. We can refain our Interdictors and HD? Big difference between MJD on BS and BC, Tier3 have comparative mobility with Cruisers. That for mania with new modules, especially with MJD? MJD have no counter-measures, don't speak to me about scram and that I will burst out laughing
/Vanga mode on: again there will be one roams from Naga`s/Tornado, only now not audible... |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:03:00 -
[262] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:CCP: "We're going to nerf mobility on BC because atm they're way too powerful and make the pvp landscape rather limited and boring"
players: "YOU CAN'T DO THIS, IT WILL COMPLETELY MESS UP MY CANE BACKBONE... err THE GAME! DOOM, HORROR, CTHULHU. YOU'll BREAK THIS GAME SO MUCH IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY BECAUSE I CAN'T COMPREHEND THE RESULTS OF THIS CHANGE AND COMING UP WITH ADAPTATIONS SOUNDS LIKE EFFORT!"
:changes happen, some time passes and ppl adapt:
players: "hey, this is actually nice. Now we can fly funky cruisers and frigs because they're not made redundant anymore by Canes and Drakes. Pretty cool tbh"
CCP: "We're going to give BC a specific niche by giving it MJD because we feel that kiting (just like the old nano age and WCS) means that people can fight without having to commit to it, that's just not right given that these BC tend to be fairly slow compared to other ships. This way BC aren't able to keep up with fast roaming gangs but on the up side they can force you to commit to a fight if you want to kill them"
players: "YOU CAN'T DO THIS, THIS COMPLETELY MESSES UP MY BUBBLE/KITE err... THE GAME! DOOM, HORROR, CTHULHU AGAIN WTF"
people who have a clue: "well, it's a bit weird but sure, I can see where you're going with that but please, CBC only. Not ABC"
History repeats itself, again and again.
The fact aht we addapted doe snto mean that now is better than before.
And The constant nerfign of ANY tactic that is not gallente in the face blaster brwaling is gettign tiresome.
If in the face brwaling is supposed to be the ONLY way to play.. why would anyone have any other race trained?
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
444
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:05:00 -
[263] - Quote
Rainbow Eyes wrote:Hey, DEVs, what do you think about interdiction of warp for Tier3? 10sec and we at 80km from bubble, one the optimal. We can refain our Interdictors and HD? Big difference between MJD on BS and BC, Tier3 have comparative mobility with Cruisers. That for mania with new modules, especially with MJD? MJD have no counter-measures, don't speak to me about scram and that I will burst out laughing /Vanga mode on: again there will be one roams from Naga`s/Tornado, only now not audible...
Have I had too many beers? This makes no sense! |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:05:00 -
[264] - Quote
Gerdan BloodELF wrote:Not a huge fan of this module to be honest. Kind of helps kill off even further something that I love which is range control ships such as vagabonds. Please reconsider these changes.
it helps kill any combat where the players need to use the brains. It was OK on battleships because battleships were nearly useless and needed tha help. But BC are not used for a SIGNLE reason. TOO SLOW WARP. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
445
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:07:00 -
[265] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The fact aht we addapted doe snto mean that now is better than before.
And The constant nerfign of ANY tactic that is not gallente in the face blaster brwaling is gettign tiresome.
If in the face brwaling is supposed to be the ONLY way to play.. why would anyone have any other race trained?
Auto cannons, Blasters and HAM's (even drones are good vs hard tackled ships) are really good within scram/web range. I can think of many ships that use these and most aren't Gallente |
Lucas Genos
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:09:00 -
[266] - Quote
To all the crybabies: Go to EFT and make a copy of your favorite CBC fit. Now replace one of your midslots with a T2 medium MWD (mMJD uses one more CPU). Now downgrade your guns and/or tank to make it actually fit. Now compare your old fit with your new fit. Now notice it has less utility, tank and/o gank. Now realize it won't be OP. Now stop crying.
To CCP: ABCs don't actually need to make a lot of sacrifices besides an utility med and some ACR rigs. To stop ABCs from potentially break, and to keep the same ratios, I strongly recommend you reduce jump range and spool-up time by 25-50%. This would give it around the same align:spool-up and lockrange:jumprange as battleships, be less OP for ABCs and equally or more useful for CBCs. |
Gregor Parud
499
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:12:00 -
[267] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:The fact aht we addapted doe snto mean that now is better than before.
And The constant nerfign of ANY tactic that is not gallente in the face blaster brwaling is gettign tiresome.
If in the face brwaling is supposed to be the ONLY way to play.. why would anyone have any other race trained?
Yes, it is better because there's more diversity. If you can't see that you were part of the problem
Nice strawman, it's not the only way to play but it will be the way to play if you want to attack a BC, assuming he fitted MJD.
|
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
445
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:12:00 -
[268] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:To all the crybabies: Go to EFT and make a copy of your favorite CBC fit. Now replace one of your midslots with a T2 medium MWD (mMJD uses one more CPU). Now downgrade your guns and/or tank to make it actually fit. Now compare your old fit with your new fit. Now notice it has less utility, tank and/o gank. Now realize it won't be OP. Now stop crying.
To CCP: ABCs don't actually need to make a lot of sacrifices besides an utility med and some ACR rigs. To stop ABCs from potentially break, and to keep the same ratios, I strongly recommend you reduce jump range and spool-up time by 25-50%. This would give it around the same align:spool-up and lockrange:jumprange as battleships, be less OP for ABCs and equally or more useful for CBCs.
The above is one of the few posts that makes sense in this thread.
It's basically what I've been doing this afternoon. Trying to shoehorn this module in is difficult without making some kind of sacrifice. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:12:00 -
[269] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
The fact aht we addapted doe snto mean that now is better than before.
And The constant nerfign of ANY tactic that is not gallente in the face blaster brwaling is gettign tiresome.
If in the face brwaling is supposed to be the ONLY way to play.. why would anyone have any other race trained?
Auto cannons, Blasters and HAM's (even drones are good vs hard tackled ships) are really good within scram/web range. I can think of many ships that use these and most aren't Gallente
You seriously typed that?
Isn't obvious that when I said gallente I was talking about blasters?
And no These other weapons are NEARLY IRRELEVANT comapred to blasters at scram range.
Scram range is not the only way to play this damm game!! Why in hell we have so many wepaosn that fire further than 9 km? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1369
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:15:00 -
[270] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The fact aht we addapted doe snto mean that now is better than before.
And The constant nerfign of ANY tactic that is not gallente in the face blaster brwaling is gettign tiresome.
If in the face brwaling is supposed to be the ONLY way to play.. why would anyone have any other race trained?
Yes, it is better because there's more diversity. If you can't see that you were part of the problem Nice strawman, it's not the only way to play but it will be the way to play if you want to attack a BC, assuming he fitted MJD.
Great nonsense you spewed. Ibasically did nto flew BC. And no we do nto have more diversity now. The diversity of things we kill in high sec (and we are among the ones that kill the most ) droped DRAMATICALLy in the last 1 year.
There is no reason to use anything larger than a Cruiser in small scale warfare now. Peopel in fact use mostly T3 with warp speed increase because warp speed is one of the most relevant things in game now! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
105
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:17:00 -
[271] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:To all the crybabies: Go to EFT and make a copy of your favorite CBC fit. Now replace one of your midslots with a T2 medium MWD (mMJD uses one more CPU). Now downgrade your guns and/or tank to make it actually fit. Now compare your old fit with your new fit. Now notice it has less utility, tank and/o gank. Now realize it won't be OP. Now stop crying.
To CCP: ABCs don't actually need to make a lot of sacrifices besides an utility med and some ACR rigs. To stop ABCs from potentially break, and to keep the same ratios, I strongly recommend you reduce jump range and spool-up time by 25-50%. This would give it around the same align:spool-up and lockrange:jumprange as battleships, be less OP for ABCs and equally or more useful for CBCs.
CBC's are not the issue, ABC's are. |
Lucas Genos
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:23:00 -
[272] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:To all the crybabies: Go to EFT and make a copy of your favorite CBC fit. Now replace one of your midslots with a T2 medium MWD (mMJD uses one more CPU). Now downgrade your guns and/or tank to make it actually fit. Now compare your old fit with your new fit. Now notice it has less utility, tank and/o gank. Now realize it won't be OP. Now stop crying.
To CCP: ABCs don't actually need to make a lot of sacrifices besides an utility med and some ACR rigs. To stop ABCs from potentially break, and to keep the same ratios, I strongly recommend you reduce jump range and spool-up time by 25-50%. This would give it around the same align:spool-up and lockrange:jumprange as battleships, be less OP for ABCs and equally or more useful for CBCs. CBC's are not the issue, ABC's are.
A lot of people are crying over CBCs, for some reason. I wrote the second paragraph because ABCs could break from this. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
445
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:27:00 -
[273] - Quote
I think the sacrifices requied to fit one of these modules pretty much balances out the advantages.
a MJD fitted CBC/ABC has the GTFO ability but almost always must sacrifice a web to fit it (along with tank/gank/projection).
Sniping ABC's will usually have on grid tactical warpin's that they can warp to to bounce around the grid. The only change here is that they can now do it (once every three minutes) if some one puts a long range point on them or bubbled.
All this really does is make frigates very relevant as they will be required to get that hard tackle.
This is good for the game. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1197
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:30:00 -
[274] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:To all the crybabies: Go to EFT and make a copy of your favorite CBC fit. Now replace one of your midslots with a T2 medium MWD (mMJD uses one more CPU). Now downgrade your guns and/or tank to make it actually fit. Now compare your old fit with your new fit. Now notice it has less utility, tank and/o gank. Now realize it won't be OP. Now stop crying.
To CCP: ABCs don't actually need to make a lot of sacrifices besides an utility med and some ACR rigs. To stop ABCs from potentially break, and to keep the same ratios, I strongly recommend you reduce jump range and spool-up time by 25-50%. This would give it around the same align:spool-up and lockrange:jumprange as battleships, be less OP for ABCs and equally or more useful for CBCs. CBC's are not the issue, ABC's are. A lot of people are crying over CBCs, for some reason. I wrote the second paragraph because ABCs could break from this.
Its because immunity to longpoints, bubbles, and hictor points on a bc is absolutely ridiculous |
Gregor Parud
499
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:46:00 -
[275] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The fact aht we addapted doe snto mean that now is better than before.
And The constant nerfign of ANY tactic that is not gallente in the face blaster brwaling is gettign tiresome.
If in the face brwaling is supposed to be the ONLY way to play.. why would anyone have any other race trained?
Yes, it is better because there's more diversity. If you can't see that you were part of the problem Nice strawman, it's not the only way to play but it will be the way to play if you want to attack a BC, assuming he fitted MJD. Great nonsense you spewed. Ibasically did nto flew BC. And no we do nto have more diversity now. The diversity of things we kill in high sec (and we are among the ones that kill the most ) droped DRAMATICALLy in the last 1 year. There is no reason to use anything larger than a Cruiser in small scale warfare now. Peopel in fact use mostly T3 with warp speed increase because warp speed is one of the most relevant things in game now!
So you see less drakes and canes (just 2 ships) and you se a lot more cruisers now , and somehow you explain that as being less diverse.
|
Lucas Genos
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:48:00 -
[276] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:To all the crybabies: Go to EFT and make a copy of your favorite CBC fit. Now replace one of your midslots with a T2 medium MWD (mMJD uses one more CPU). Now downgrade your guns and/or tank to make it actually fit. Now compare your old fit with your new fit. Now notice it has less utility, tank and/o gank. Now realize it won't be OP. Now stop crying.
To CCP: ABCs don't actually need to make a lot of sacrifices besides an utility med and some ACR rigs. To stop ABCs from potentially break, and to keep the same ratios, I strongly recommend you reduce jump range and spool-up time by 25-50%. This would give it around the same align:spool-up and lockrange:jumprange as battleships, be less OP for ABCs and equally or more useful for CBCs. CBC's are not the issue, ABC's are. A lot of people are crying over CBCs, for some reason. I wrote the second paragraph because ABCs could break from this. Its because immunity to longpoints, bubbles, and hictor points on a bc is absolutely ridiculous
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them. |
Gregor Parud
499
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:48:00 -
[277] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:To all the crybabies: Go to EFT and make a copy of your favorite CBC fit. Now replace one of your midslots with a T2 medium MWD (mMJD uses one more CPU). Now downgrade your guns and/or tank to make it actually fit. Now compare your old fit with your new fit. Now notice it has less utility, tank and/o gank. Now realize it won't be OP. Now stop crying.
To CCP: ABCs don't actually need to make a lot of sacrifices besides an utility med and some ACR rigs. To stop ABCs from potentially break, and to keep the same ratios, I strongly recommend you reduce jump range and spool-up time by 25-50%. This would give it around the same align:spool-up and lockrange:jumprange as battleships, be less OP for ABCs and equally or more useful for CBCs. CBC's are not the issue, ABC's are. A lot of people are crying over CBCs, for some reason. I wrote the second paragraph because ABCs could break from this.
CBC will be ok with this, as stated earlier it's a bit of a funky buff but I'm fine with it. ABC is different, that'll just create more problems than it tries to solve mostly because they don't need any help in the first place AND because they're capable of long range sniping.
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1197
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:54:00 -
[278] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them.
Its still ridiculous. A ship can change align in way way less time it takes you to burn around to that spot.
Its basically a button that says "press here to exit fight" against any longpoint ship |
MMak
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:54:00 -
[279] - Quote
Bad idea |
Gregor Parud
499
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 13:56:00 -
[280] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them.
Its still ridiculous. A ship can change align in way way less time it takes you to burn around to that spot. Its basically a button that says "press here to exit fight" against any longpoint ship
And a long point cruiser or frig can, against a BC, click the "keep at range >24km" button to "press here to exit a fight".
|
|
Lucas Genos
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:01:00 -
[281] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them.
Its still ridiculous. A ship can change align in way way less time it takes you to burn around to that spot. Its basically a button that says "press here to exit fight" against any longpoint ship
Yes. Now brawlers can make sacrifices for GTFO ability, too. I still think it should be reduced to 50km range and 6 second spool-up, giving skilled kiters with OH T2 longpoint the ability to keep point after the jump. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1198
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:04:00 -
[282] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them.
Its still ridiculous. A ship can change align in way way less time it takes you to burn around to that spot. Its basically a button that says "press here to exit fight" against any longpoint ship And a long point cruiser or frig can, against a BC, click the "keep at range >24km" button to "press here to exit a fight".
That is the entire point.
A brawler can defeat a kiter through good piloting. You can play the game well, slingshot the enemy, and kill them.
There is no counterplay to mjd besides ramming the enemy using it.
|
Lucas Genos
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:09:00 -
[283] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them.
Its still ridiculous. A ship can change align in way way less time it takes you to burn around to that spot. Its basically a button that says "press here to exit fight" against any longpoint ship And a long point cruiser or frig can, against a BC, click the "keep at range >24km" button to "press here to exit a fight". That is the entire point. A brawler can defeat a kiter through good piloting. You can play the game well, slingshot the enemy, and kill them. There is no counterplay to mjd besides ramming the enemy using it.
Which is why I said 25-50% reduction in jump range and spool-up would be better and more fun for everyone. |
Gregor Parud
499
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:11:00 -
[284] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them.
Its still ridiculous. A ship can change align in way way less time it takes you to burn around to that spot. Its basically a button that says "press here to exit fight" against any longpoint ship And a long point cruiser or frig can, against a BC, click the "keep at range >24km" button to "press here to exit a fight". That is the entire point. A brawler can defeat a kiter through good piloting. You can play the game well, slingshot the enemy, and kill them. There is no counterplay to mjd besides ramming the enemy using it.
There is, it's called scram. Nano/kiting is no different from folks who years ago used WCS in their pvp ships. Your kiting ship works just fine but it might not against the few BC you run in to, surely this is the end of the world. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1198
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:13:00 -
[285] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:Which is why I said 25-50% reduction in jump range and spool-up would be better and more fun for everyone.
That helps only for the hypothetical 1v1. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1198
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:16:00 -
[286] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I suggested the jump range should be reduced by 25-50%. Have a DIC burn 50km from the fleet in the direction they're aligned and bubble up where they'll land. A good kiter can also burn in the direction they're facing when they active the MJD and keep tackle when they land (pro-tip: can't warp while the MJD is cycling). You could also throw one day old Slashers at them.
Its still ridiculous. A ship can change align in way way less time it takes you to burn around to that spot. Its basically a button that says "press here to exit fight" against any longpoint ship And a long point cruiser or frig can, against a BC, click the "keep at range >24km" button to "press here to exit a fight". That is the entire point. A brawler can defeat a kiter through good piloting. You can play the game well, slingshot the enemy, and kill them. There is no counterplay to mjd besides ramming the enemy using it. There is, it's called scram. Nano/kiting is no different from folks who years ago used WCS in their pvp ships. Your kiting ship works just fine but it might not against the few BC you run in to, surely this is the end of the world.
Ok. So lets I am in a myrmidon. You are in a stabber. I chase you trying to scram you. I tank your entire dps on a single rep, while cap stable
Now lets say Im an idiot and I burn out every single active module on my ship and dont micro any of my drones and you kill all of them. Do I not deserve to die? Do you not deserve the kill? |
Lucas Genos
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:16:00 -
[287] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:Which is why I said 25-50% reduction in jump range and spool-up would be better and more fun for everyone. That helps only for the hypothetical 1v1.
If you're flying in fleets, there's no reason not to have newbros in Slashers with scram or at least a few DICs that can burn in front of their fleet and bubble. God forbid kiters have to commit something, too. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1198
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:19:00 -
[288] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:Which is why I said 25-50% reduction in jump range and spool-up would be better and more fun for everyone. That helps only for the hypothetical 1v1. If you're flying in fleets, there's no reason not to have newbros in Slashers with scram or at least a few DICs that can burn in front of their fleet and bubble. God forbid kiters have to commit something, too.
Lets say it takes 10s for a fleet to completely reverse its align. How far can your dics burn in 10s?
Also few vs many is a common situation. |
Gregor Parud
499
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:22:00 -
[289] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Ok. So lets I am in a myrmidon. You are in a stabber. I chase you trying to scram you. I tank your entire dps on a single rep, while cap stable
Now lets say Im an idiot and I burn out every single active module on my ship and dont micro any of my drones and you kill all of them. Do I not deserve to die? Do you not deserve the kill?
Here's how it is right now;
Because I opted to fit for kiting I thus opted to have an advantage against most ships and strategies, I can pick and choose the majority of my engagements (until I run into a faster ship). I can choose to attack you and I can choose to disengage whenever I want to and you certainly won't catch me. YOU don't get to choose anything; you're too slow to catch me (because I'm not stupid enough to fall for a myrm trying to slingshot me). In short I have ALL the advantages and if I'm in any danger of losing my advantages I'll just GTFO.
I'll either win or I'll draw You either lose or you'll draw
With MJD I still have all the advantages against the most ships and strategies, just not against MJD fit BC. Holy ****, there's something that has a counter to my uber kiting. THIS WILL NOT STAND!
|
Lucas Genos
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:24:00 -
[290] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Lucas Genos wrote:Which is why I said 25-50% reduction in jump range and spool-up would be better and more fun for everyone. That helps only for the hypothetical 1v1. If you're flying in fleets, there's no reason not to have newbros in Slashers with scram or at least a few DICs that can burn in front of their fleet and bubble. God forbid kiters have to commit something, too. Lets say it takes 10s for a fleet to completely reverse its align. How far can your dics burn in 10s? Also few vs many is a common situation.
Have several DICs spread around the fleet? Primary something without MJD like logi? Position a Lachesis so you keep point after the jump? |
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1199
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:25:00 -
[291] - Quote
Lucas Genos wrote:[ Have several DICs spread around the fleet? Primary something without MJD like logi? Position a Lachesis so you keep point after the jump?
Geometry |
Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1070
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:26:00 -
[292] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:All this really does is make frigates very relevant as they will be required to get that hard tackle.
This is good for the game.
Yay because what this game definitely needs is more frigate blobs
I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
8301
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:33:00 -
[293] - Quote
im happy that these mods have been added for only bcs and dsts, never EVER add these to t3s or cruisers, WAY overpowered. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:37:00 -
[294] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk. Really? They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs. You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight. You must be living in an alternate version of eve where everything we know is flipped on it's head. |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
216
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:45:00 -
[295] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point.
This so much...
Its not that hard to combat an MJD. You dont even need an inty, a cruiser with a long point and a MWD can reach a MJD BC that has just used it with enough situational awareness and dedication. Everybody is freaking out and I dont think most have stopped and considered how easily BC's will still be able to be caught and destroyed. Its just another tool in the toolbelt of the brawler to use in case things go **** up and like any good tool it is situational. Stop crying cause now the slow BC has an option to GTFO just like a kitey ship does.
Fozzie I think you're doing great, dont listen to all the nay-sayers
Oderint Dum Metuant |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1199
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:46:00 -
[296] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. This so much... Its not that hard to combat an MJD. You dont even need an inty, a cruiser with a long point and a MWD can reach a MJD BC that has just used it with enough situational awareness and dedication. Everybody is freaking out and I dont think most have stopped and considered how easily BC's will still be able to be caught and destroyed. Its just another tool in the toolbelt of the brawler to use in case things go **** up and like any good tool it is situational. Stop crying cause now the slow BC has an option to GTFO just like a kitey ship does. Fozzie I think you're doing great, dont listen to all the nay-sayers
You cant reach a ship that has used its mjd. It is already aligned and can warp instantly. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
233
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:50:00 -
[297] - Quote
I'm loving all these tears. Everytime I see a post exclaiming that MMJD need to be scrammable by a bubble or the world as we know it will end, I rejoice in the tears of lazy nullseccers and gate campers who are no longer going to be able to play their favourite game of fish in a barrel.
That being said, I do think the range of these mods need to be altered to make BS's stand out above BC's. Despite BS's having come a long way, more reasons to use BS's are always needed.
MMJD - 75km MJD - 125km
125km would put a BS in perfect sniping range . |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
694
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 14:58:00 -
[298] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:I'm loving all these tears. Everytime I see a post exclaiming that MMJD need to be scrammable by a bubble or the world as we know it will end, I rejoice in the tears of lazy nullseccers and gate campers who are no longer going to be able to play their favourite game of fish in a barrel.
That being said, I do think the range of these mods need to be altered to make BS's stand out above BC's. Despite BS's having come a long way, more reasons to use BS's are always needed.
MMJD - 75km MJD - 125km
125km would put a BS in perfect sniping range .
because campers never abuse tornados, right? |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1199
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:00:00 -
[299] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I'm loving all these tears. Everytime I see a post exclaiming that MMJD need to be scrammable by a bubble or the world as we know it will end, I rejoice in the tears of lazy nullseccers and gate campers who are no longer going to be able to play their favourite game of fish in a barrel.
That being said, I do think the range of these mods need to be altered to make BS's stand out above BC's. Despite BS's having come a long way, more reasons to use BS's are always needed.
MMJD - 75km MJD - 125km
125km would put a BS in perfect sniping range . because campers never abuse tornados, right?
All the good camps have remote sebo lach vigilant anyway |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:14:00 -
[300] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I'm loving all these tears. Everytime I see a post exclaiming that MMJD need to be scrammable by a bubble or the world as we know it will end, I rejoice in the tears of lazy nullseccers and gate campers who are no longer going to be able to play their favourite game of fish in a barrel.
That being said, I do think the range of these mods need to be altered to make BS's stand out above BC's. Despite BS's having come a long way, more reasons to use BS's are always needed.
MMJD - 75km MJD - 125km
125km would put a BS in perfect sniping range . because campers never abuse tornados, right? Camper's wont get much use out of a MMJD, but they will be adversely affected by it, although by a smaller degree than they are probably imagining right now. |
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1199
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:16:00 -
[301] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: Camper's wont get much use out of a MMJD, but they will be adversely affected by it, although by a smaller degree than they are probably imagining right now.
There are systems camped by sebo artynados. MMJD makes them much harder to tackle (and you can already only tackle them when they arent paying attention) |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
217
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:23:00 -
[302] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Aralieus wrote:afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. This so much... Its not that hard to combat an MJD. You dont even need an inty, a cruiser with a long point and a MWD can reach a MJD BC that has just used it with enough situational awareness and dedication. Everybody is freaking out and I dont think most have stopped and considered how easily BC's will still be able to be caught and destroyed. Its just another tool in the toolbelt of the brawler to use in case things go **** up and like any good tool it is situational. Stop crying cause now the slow BC has an option to GTFO just like a kitey ship does. Fozzie I think you're doing great, dont listen to all the nay-sayers You cant reach a ship that has used its mjd. It is already aligned and can warp instantly. You either get in its scram range or it is warping out. A remote seboed interceptor waiting at the mjd landing point cannot point the ship using mjd unless the ship using mjd screws up completely.
Than bump him....I mean wtf, its like people are trying to say anything to make this mod look like the end of the world. Bump him hard and burn towards his potential landing spot with a OH MWD and OH your long point. If your not alone then its that much easier. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:25:00 -
[303] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: Camper's wont get much use out of a MMJD, but they will be adversely affected by it, although by a smaller degree than they are probably imagining right now.
There are systems camped by sebo artynados. MMJD makes them much harder to tackle (and you can already only tackle them when they arent paying attention) Still don't think they will use MMJD's. They want fish in a barrel. Using a MMJD is too much hard work for them. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1199
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:26:00 -
[304] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Aralieus wrote:afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. This so much... Its not that hard to combat an MJD. You dont even need an inty, a cruiser with a long point and a MWD can reach a MJD BC that has just used it with enough situational awareness and dedication. Everybody is freaking out and I dont think most have stopped and considered how easily BC's will still be able to be caught and destroyed. Its just another tool in the toolbelt of the brawler to use in case things go **** up and like any good tool it is situational. Stop crying cause now the slow BC has an option to GTFO just like a kitey ship does. Fozzie I think you're doing great, dont listen to all the nay-sayers You cant reach a ship that has used its mjd. It is already aligned and can warp instantly. You either get in its scram range or it is warping out. A remote seboed interceptor waiting at the mjd landing point cannot point the ship using mjd unless the ship using mjd screws up completely. Than bump him....I mean wtf, its like people are trying to say anything to make this mod look like the end of the world. Bump him hard and burn towards his potential landing spot with a OH MWD and OH your long point. If your not alone then its that much easier.
Im not sure you understand what "he can warp instantly" means.
|
Firebolt145
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
86
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:29:00 -
[305] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Aralieus wrote:afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. This so much... Its not that hard to combat an MJD. You dont even need an inty, a cruiser with a long point and a MWD can reach a MJD BC that has just used it with enough situational awareness and dedication. Everybody is freaking out and I dont think most have stopped and considered how easily BC's will still be able to be caught and destroyed. Its just another tool in the toolbelt of the brawler to use in case things go **** up and like any good tool it is situational. Stop crying cause now the slow BC has an option to GTFO just like a kitey ship does. Fozzie I think you're doing great, dont listen to all the nay-sayers You cant reach a ship that has used its mjd. It is already aligned and can warp instantly. You either get in its scram range or it is warping out. A remote seboed interceptor waiting at the mjd landing point cannot point the ship using mjd unless the ship using mjd screws up completely. Than bump him....I mean wtf, its like people are trying to say anything to make this mod look like the end of the world. Bump him hard and burn towards his potential landing spot with a OH MWD and OH your long point. If your not alone then its that much easier. Wait, your solution to the problem of 'I can't stop him escaping, which is because he can't scram me' is to BUMP him? |
Nicollette Amatin
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:40:00 -
[306] - Quote
As someone who uses BCs and CSs often, I like this module.
One of the reasons why this module is not overpowered is the three minute cool down timer which I don't recall anyone mentioning, except that they wished the cool down time frame was shorter. My plans to counter the MJD on ABCs is to abuse these 180s by feinting and then focus on catching the ships while the pilots are waiting for the timer to run out so that they can MJD again. During that three minute window, bubbles and warp disruptors will work just fine on them. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1199
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:46:00 -
[307] - Quote
Nicollette Amatin wrote:As someone who uses BCs and CSs often, I like this module. One of the reasons why this module is not overpowered is the three minute cool down timer which I don't recall anyone mentioning, except that they wished the cool down time frame was shorter. My plans to counter the MJD on ABCs is to abuse these 180s by feinting and then focus on catching the ships while the pilots are waiting for the timer to run out so that they can MJD again. During that three minute window, bubbles and warp disruptors will work just fine on them.
What makes you think they will engage when the module is on cd? |
Firebolt145
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
86
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:47:00 -
[308] - Quote
Nicollette Amatin wrote:As someone who uses BCs and CSs often, I like this module. One of the reasons why this module is not overpowered is the three minute cool down timer which I don't recall anyone mentioning, except that they wished the cool down time frame was shorter. My plans to counter the MJD on ABCs is to abuse these 180s by feinting and then focus on catching the ships while the pilots are waiting for the timer to run out so that they can MJD again. During that three minute window, bubbles and warp disruptors will work just fine on them. Except they can just warp off and wait the three minute window out. |
Theon Severasse
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
69
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:55:00 -
[309] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Theon Severasse wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk. Really? They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs. You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight. Show me a Thorax that can solo a decent brutix.. myrmidon.. drake.. heck even a ferox..
Brutix and Myrm I agree with, both are too tanky to do so. Cyclone is also pushing it, depending on how it's fit.
A dual rep thorax will be able to tank the others, while wearing down whatever tank they have.
For example, a drake can put out 534 DPS, assuming max skills, and T2 HAMs firing navy scourge. However, not all of that DPS will apply, leaving you with about 350ish DPS. Then once you account for resists you are looking at about 120 DPS. That's tankable with a single rep on a thorax (~150 DPS rep with a T2 MAR).
The biggest problem isn't killing the BC. It's killing the BC before his friends turn up, or if you are fighting on a gate, him deagro-ing.
So I guess maybe I should have rephrased what I said.
I haven't seen many BCs that did not then turn out to be bait for a fleet. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
694
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:59:00 -
[310] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Theon Severasse wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:I don't understand why people think BC's need a buff stats wise?
They are in a weird middle spot like dessies.. but they are still excellent bang for buck when you consider the dps/tank they bring to the field for that amount of isk. Really? They don't do more DPS than cruisers, and don't really tank much more. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen someone flying a BC while soloing (not counting ABCs), and I can't remember the last time that I saw a fleet of BCs. You can solo most BCs in a thorax without it being a particularly challenging fight. Show me a Thorax that can solo a decent brutix.. myrmidon.. drake.. heck even a ferox.. Brutix and Myrm I agree with, both are too tanky to do so. Cyclone is also pushing it, depending on how it's fit. A dual rep thorax will be able to tank the others, while wearing down whatever tank they have. For example, a drake can put out 534 DPS, assuming max skills, and T2 HAMs firing navy scourge. However, not all of that DPS will apply, leaving you with about 350ish DPS. Then once you account for resists you are looking at about 120 DPS. That's tankable with a single rep on a thorax (~150 DPS rep with a T2 MAR). The biggest problem isn't killing the BC. It's killing the BC before his friends turn up, or if you are fighting on a gate, him deagro-ing. So I guess maybe I should have rephrased what I said. I haven't seen many BCs that did not then turn out to be bait for a fleet.
maybe you should use better fits |
|
QT McWhiskers
Hard Knocks Inc.
412
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:12:00 -
[311] - Quote
Here is something many of you are forgetting. MJD blooms your sig radius, but does not increase your speed for the spool up timer. And because it is considered a prop mod, it cant be used at the same time as an AB or MWD. So for 9-12 seconds, dependent on skills, you are bloomed to 1.5 times your size and stuck at your ships base speed, less so if you change direction before hitting your MJD.
I personally dont see this as OP. Just giving a boost to many ships people previously considered too slow to use because they could not escape if caught in bubbles.
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1200
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:26:00 -
[312] - Quote
QT McWhiskers wrote:Here is something many of you are forgetting. MJD blooms your sig radius, but does not increase your speed for the spool up timer. And because it is considered a prop mod, it cant be used at the same time as an AB or MWD. So for 9-12 seconds, dependent on skills, you are bloomed to 1.5 times your size and stuck at your ships base speed, less so if you change direction before hitting your MJD.
I personally dont see this as OP. Just giving a boost to many ships people previously considered too slow to use because they could not escape if caught in bubbles.
you can use mjd at the same time as other prop mods |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10177
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:38:00 -
[313] - Quote
Ok, I'm now caught up with this thread. Thanks for the feedback so far.
I'll be taking the good points brought up in this thread and discussing them with the CSM and the other designers here at the office.
One thing I wanted to make clear is that Micro Jump Drives were never intended to be a battleship only module. When CCP Soniclover introduced them he intended to see how they went and then add more in the future.
I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool. The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable. It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level. The argument focused on small gang and solo is more persuasive in this case, although the idea that this module will somehow kill all kiting gameplay is fairly silly. There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release.
In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.
Like I said, we'll be taking all this feedback into account. Thanks to all the good posters who can manage to discuss their opinions in a reasonable and coherent manner. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5225
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:44:00 -
[314] - Quote
Thanks for reading the feedback in all these threads, especially on a weekend. The Paradox |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1200
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:44:00 -
[315] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ok, I'm now caught up with this thread. Thanks for the feedback so far.
I'll be taking the good points brought up in this thread and discussing them with the CSM and the other designers here at the office.
One thing I wanted to make clear is that Micro Jump Drives were never intended to be a battleship only module. When CCP Soniclover introduced them he intended to see how they went and then add more in the future.
I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool. The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable. It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level. .
The thing is, these arent limited to cheap disposable fleets either. You can mount them on fleets of CS.
Also, its ok that inexpensive fleets get wiped - that why the junior FC is flying around in vexors instead of ishtars to begin with. They are cheap and disposable. |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
218
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:44:00 -
[316] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Aralieus wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Aralieus wrote:afkalt wrote:Did on grid probing get nerfed when I wasn't looking?
And an inty pilot paying attention in the spool up time can be over half way to their landing point. This so much... Its not that hard to combat an MJD. You dont even need an inty, a cruiser with a long point and a MWD can reach a MJD BC that has just used it with enough situational awareness and dedication. Everybody is freaking out and I dont think most have stopped and considered how easily BC's will still be able to be caught and destroyed. Its just another tool in the toolbelt of the brawler to use in case things go **** up and like any good tool it is situational. Stop crying cause now the slow BC has an option to GTFO just like a kitey ship does. Fozzie I think you're doing great, dont listen to all the nay-sayers You cant reach a ship that has used its mjd. It is already aligned and can warp instantly. You either get in its scram range or it is warping out. A remote seboed interceptor waiting at the mjd landing point cannot point the ship using mjd unless the ship using mjd screws up completely. Than bump him....I mean wtf, its like people are trying to say anything to make this mod look like the end of the world. Bump him hard and burn towards his potential landing spot with a OH MWD and OH your long point. If your not alone then its that much easier. Im not sure you understand what "he can warp instantly" means. Or if you are suggesting bumping him before his mjd cycles, im not sure you understand what 100km is.
Michael with a combat record like yours I know you are not this daft to creating favourable tactics on the fly. You're playing coy for the sake of argument but I know you know better.
Oderint Dum Metuant |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
694
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:45:00 -
[317] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.
logistics nerf when? and yeah, just leave them off ABCs (please consider nerfing ABCs) and it'll be fine. |
NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
48
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:49:00 -
[318] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
No actually its because you've nerfed them into uselessness and yeah its Great that cruisers are usefull now but the fact you had to make another class of ships allmost completely useless to do it is really dumb
I really wish it was not like that but its the sad truth of it since even attack battlecruisers no longer have any part to play with too many frigate size ships around to be used in any smart way and the normal BCs are just painfully pointless when Cruisers can out match them.
just add this module to Cruiser size allready so we can actually get some use out of it. Thoe of course you'd be right in 'that would be too powerfull for such a small ship' and you'd be right about it. A module WILL NOT SAVE Battlecruisers when they offer allmost no benefits over cruisers.
tl;dr : redo battlecruiser balance they suck, a module wont change it.
Yes we probably will see Command ship fleets using these thoe atleast there is that! |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
809
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:55:00 -
[319] - Quote
mm... im not enamored by the idea of ABC's being able too jump 100km and snipe things that was just about too catch them up and kill them.. ...it makes countering them a little too hard.. also have you thought about reducing the range a little ... say 75km ... smaller sized mods should be less powerful surely? i kind of fear for logi's and e-war range ships that like hovering around 60km off the main fight .. just getting jumped on by a heavy tackle brutix that would just rip that ship too shreds in no time... Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
18
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:58:00 -
[320] - Quote
A module might help a bit. Right now almost all T1 CBC and CS are hampered by terribly low effective ranges. It doesn't help that heavy missiles now suck. The MMJD forces enemies to go into scram range against the CBCs where the CBCs can at least do some fighting instead of dying from 80KM.
On the other hand ABCs are doing fine. I'd be more worried about ABCs continuing to overshadow CBCs exceprt that ABCs have really tight fitting already. It will require a lot of compromises to fit a MMJD to an ABC. |
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5225
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:59:00 -
[321] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i kind of fear for logi's and e-war range ships that like hovering around 60km off the main fight .. just getting jumped on by a heavy tackle brutix that would just rip that ship too shreds in no time... I'm ok with this. The Paradox |
Gorski Car
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
278
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:06:00 -
[322] - Quote
Good fozzie dont listen to the tears of people doing "elite pvp" that cant even function without links and expect every fight to be a fight where they do cowardly kiting never actually commiting and expecting to get kills. #GORSKI4CSM https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4265138#post4265138
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
143
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:21:00 -
[323] - Quote
so basically fit a scrambler on your roaming ship or don't bother.... "choices, choices" ... |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
337
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:27:00 -
[324] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ok, I'm now caught up with this thread. Thanks for the feedback so far.
I'll be taking the good points brought up in this thread and discussing them with the CSM and the other designers here at the office.
One thing I wanted to make clear is that Micro Jump Drives were never intended to be a battleship only module. When CCP Soniclover introduced them he intended to see how they went and then add more in the future.
I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool. The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable. It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level. The argument focused on small gang and solo is more persuasive in this case, although the idea that this module will somehow kill all kiting gameplay is fairly silly. There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release.
In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.
Like I said, we'll be taking all this feedback into account. Thanks to all the good posters who can manage to discuss their opinions in a reasonable and coherent manner.
Fozzie,
If this would go through then hypothetically you are looking at:
All BS, Maruaders, BLOPS All ABC All BC, CS, Navy BS
so 48 unique ships in total that long points will not have the ability to work on.
Kiting ships, and kiting setups depend on the use of a long point to help engage superior numbered gangs, and help catch targets. Finding fights in eve is already difficult. Making 48 ships now have a get out of jail free card, and entire comps of ships become immune to nano is not good for the game, and is detrimental to groups of players wanting to solo / small gang. Solo / Small gang creates content, and helps drive large battles. Making more and more ships immune to this type of play style will make less content because of the now increased difficulty of holding ships down, and forcing fights.
A game with more content, more fights, is more interesting and brings a more diverse playing experience. These proposed changes limits choices, and provides no coutner play. It means that one must always fly with a long scram ship (Keres), or have a scram themselves and get in to brawl. The worst option of course, is to fit a long point and have ships simply leave during combat, or just do not engage 40+ unique ships you come across. |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:30:00 -
[325] - Quote
I kinda expected it to spread from battleships to other classes, but it seems as if you're making Micro Jump Drives the all-in one fix for mobility problems. Or am I wrong? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
236
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:33:00 -
[326] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release. I think that would be a shame, but understandable that you would want to take an incremental approach. I've mentioned this twice before in the thread, so apologies for sounding like a broken record, but I think a 75km MMJD range would be sufficient and in fact probably better in some cases for BCs and ABCs.
It would have a dual purpose of firstly providing a nerfing effect making a MMJDing ABC easier to catch by a skilled interceptor pilot, and in some way a buffing effect by not putting the BC way outside of it's gun and lock range.
Also it would provide some separation between BCs and BS's. I'd love to see BS's given a 125km range for even further separation.
Is this something which you might look at? |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1514
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:37:00 -
[327] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release.
I don't think placing arbitrary restrictions on ships is the answer. Especially a class of ships that has become less popular since the warp mechanic change.
What we need is new technology or changes to the MMJD to counter many of the problems some people have with the game. For example, you could make disrupters stop MMJD or you could add scrambling interdiction bubbles/scripts, which would also counter the ridiculous proliferation of interceptors.
To be honest, the MMJD isn't really needed. A module that increases the warp speed of a BC would be much better. +1 |
Pubbie Spy
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:43:00 -
[328] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool. The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable. It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level. The argument focused on small gang and solo is more persuasive in this case, although the idea that this module will somehow kill all kiting gameplay is fairly silly. There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release.
Please give Attack BCs the MJD, it might finally might sniping viable again. |
Bishop Xsi
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
74
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:51:00 -
[329] - Quote
I mostly agree with what NinjaStyle said here. The main reason to use CBC's right now is that they're cheaper than battleships. But if money is an issue, then you're better off going with a cruiser comp anyway. If money isn't an issue, there aren't many roles that CBC's fill where another ship type isn't a superior choice.
MMJD's are a step in the right direction, but I'm guessing the fitting compromises that come with the module are going to relegate it to novelty doctrines (probably composed of Feroxes). If you want to control range within the engagement envelope of medium guns, you need a standard prop mod. In most cases, fitting a MMDJ means dual-propping your fat, slow CBC, with all that entails. The lack of mobility and large-ish signature radius already substantially offsets the damage and tank advantages of CBC's against both battleships and cruisers. Fitting a MMJD is just going to force you to either severely gimp your mobility between micro jumps, or give up one of the two things (tank and damage) that differentiate CBC's from cruisers.
In short, CBC's are in kind of a bad place right now. As a mid-point between cruisers and battleships, they don't have much of a role. I doubt the MMJD is going to fix that. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
354
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:07:00 -
[330] - Quote
if your dead set on going through with this. give the absolution another mid and some extra fittings. srsly. i want a scram but i also want a cap injector. |
|
Gorski Car
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
285
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:09:00 -
[331] - Quote
I am actually going to make a serious post for once since everyone seems to be crying about mjds not being counterable by piloting and killing solo/small gang pvp.
How about you put the ship speed at 0 after landing with a micro jump. This would prevent the align + mjd + warp insta gtfo and make mjds counterable by good piloting. Press look at, see mjd eftect then burn towards their align so you can catch them after jumping. #GORSKI4CSM https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4265138#post4265138
|
Firebolt145
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
86
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:21:00 -
[332] - Quote
Gorski Car wrote:I am actually going to make a serious post for once since everyone seems to be crying about mjds not being counterable by piloting and killing solo/small gang pvp.
How about you put the ship speed at 0 after landing with a micro jump. This would prevent the align + mjd + warp insta gtfo and make mjds counterable by good piloting. Press look at, see mjd eftect then burn towards their align so you can catch them after jumping. Never knew you had a 'serious post' in you. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
354
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:24:00 -
[333] - Quote
Gorski Car wrote:I am actually going to make a serious post for once since everyone seems to be crying about mjds not being counterable by piloting and killing solo/small gang pvp.
How about you put the ship speed at 0 after landing with a micro jump. This would prevent the align + mjd + warp insta gtfo and make mjds counterable by good piloting. Press look at, see mjd eftect then burn towards their align so you can catch them after jumping. since this is the future, would be nice that the second a mjd activates a orange blip appears right where they will land for obvious reasons.
still do not support this on ABC's. |
PaulsAvatar
IXCO
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:27:00 -
[334] - Quote
I think I like this new module.
+1 |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
414
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:48:00 -
[335] - Quote
Gorski Car wrote:I am actually going to make a serious post for once since everyone seems to be crying about mjds not being counterable by piloting and killing solo/small gang pvp.
How about you put the ship speed at 0 after landing with a micro jump. This would prevent the align + mjd + warp insta gtfo and make mjds counterable by good piloting. Press look at, see mjd eftect then burn towards their align so you can catch them after jumping.
still a get out of jail free card for attack 'align like a frigate' battlecruisers |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9953
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:02:00 -
[336] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:One thing I wanted to make clear is that Micro Jump Drives were never intended to be a battleship only module. When CCP Soniclover introduced them he intended to see how they went and then add more in the future. Keyword being "see how they went". We can see that they've been mildly effective in increasing the popularity of battleships, and they're especially nice when paired with marauders. As soon as you start giving this ability to other ships (we were really worried about this with the mobileMJD but you nerfed it to the point of this not being a problem) you diminish one of the few advantages that battleships had which made them more attractive and viable for PVP.
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool. The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable. Then maybe you should look at properly rebalancing the mobility attributes of these ships. For one you also increased the signature radius of ABCs to make them more vulnerable to bombs, something which wasn't really necessary because they were quite vulnerable to begin with. Giving these ships MJDs does little to alleviate the bomb threat, but it gives them far too much mobility to be balanced.
ABCs don't have issues with picking fights and being able to disengage at will. CBCs have a much more difficult time of this but I still don't believe an MJD is the answer. You're trying to do open heart surgery with a pickaxe while the scalpel is sitting right next to you..
CCP Fozzie wrote:It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level. What are you talking about? No they aren't. Even at MJDO 5 the window to activate this module is extremely small - more than likely what would happen is that if anyone tried to MJD they'd activate it too late (one second is not enough time for a reaction especially when coupled with the fact that your server runs in one second ticks), guaranteeing that they'll die to bombs because of the increased signature radius.
In other words, trying to MJD away from bombs is as dumb as trying to MWD away from them.
CCP Fozzie wrote:In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales. We understand that, but we feel that this skews the balance far, far too heavily in favor of "we were severely outmatched but it didn't matter since we can always disengage with minimal losses." "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Damen Apol
Dayman Industries
30
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:03:00 -
[337] - Quote
Absolutely terrible idea, completely opposed to this module. |
Samuel Nathas
The Disciples of Hasselhoff
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:12:00 -
[338] - Quote
Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.
Now you have a chance to pick several targets, and scram them so they can't jump. :) Also, the rest of your fleet can tactically warp (dictors) to other gates and put up bubbles as the timer cooldown for those MMJD is 3 minutes. You can set up a trap basically. Don't you think? Also, all these people spooling up the MJD can't deactivate it (as far as I know), and those caught are most likely to be destroyed. Not to mention that fitting MMJD takes up one valuable mid slot.
So what is the problem? Adapt or die. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:31:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The argument focused on small gang and solo is more persuasive in this case, although the idea that this module will somehow kill all kiting gameplay is fairly silly. There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release..
The thing is every expansion seems to bring a new way of avoiding combat and risk. Bugger all development goes into increasing danger and risk to the game especially in small gang/solo situations. I would give you the ceptor changes but even that has been largely offset by so many people using them as a near invulnerable, very cheap, taxi service to travel from one place to another. By increasing survivability in so many ships you've made it so there is hardly any realistic targets for small gang pvpers, particularly in 0.0.
I agree that BC's needed a buff, but this isn't the right one, personally I think a large part of the problem is that cruisers are too fast, I don't think it makes much sense that cruisers are faster than destroyers for example. You could even have provided the BC's with a new unique role of their own, maybe a new tackle related one.
And just because the original plan for MJD's wasn't for them to be unique to battleships doesn't mean that feedback and results shouldn't affect how you develop (or not develop!) them further. There is a lot of people who believe that the reasons MJD's have been on the whole successful is because they're unique to battleships, and that they allow them to compensate for vulnerabilities.
Just please stop calling giving players more opportunites to escape/avoid combat, while rarely increasing risk 'development'. |
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
87
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:35:00 -
[340] - Quote
Having the MMJD work exactly the same as the LMJD is a little boring and doesn't help most BCs in any PVP situation other than escape. My suggestion (I'm going to say it again) is to make the jump range around 60km, the spool up around 10sec, and the cool down 2 mins. That's about ~30% off each stat, this should make it competitive for PVP, PVE, and escape tactics. |
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1204
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:46:00 -
[341] - Quote
Samuel Nathas wrote:Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.
When is the last time you ran a fleet without a scout, and where do you run these fleets? |
Kyria Stenory
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:52:00 -
[342] - Quote
Could be nice... but it looks like you've forgotten about implications.
Btw, we already have mobile MJD for all ship, why do we need a module that'll only help people avoiding being tackled ? |
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:58:00 -
[343] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ok, I'm now caught up with this thread. Thanks for the feedback so far.
I'll be taking the good points brought up in this thread and discussing them with the CSM and the other designers here at the office.
One thing I wanted to make clear is that Micro Jump Drives were never intended to be a battleship only module. When CCP Soniclover introduced them he intended to see how they went and then add more in the future.
I'm seeing two major arguments revolving around the use of MJDs as a disengagement tool. The fleet level argument I am honestly not swayed by at this time. Providing inexpensive fleet options that don't automatically get wiped when they find themselves in a bad situation is something we consider very valuable. It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level. The argument focused on small gang and solo is more persuasive in this case, although the idea that this module will somehow kill all kiting gameplay is fairly silly. There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release.
In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.
Like I said, we'll be taking all this feedback into account. Thanks to all the good posters who can manage to discuss their opinions in a reasonable and coherent manner.
The solo argument is a non-argument as well tbh. Kiters are all about having options, they can pick and choose what to attack, when to do so and when to GTFO. MJD gives a BC a similar option but only against kiters, beyond that they're still slow, easy to engage or stay away from. Besides, lets be honest; most people in this thread don't give a fck about soloing, they just try to play the solo card because MJD might mess up their bubble/crow blob backbone and they're desperately trying to come up with :reasons:.
It's a funky idea and sits well with the concept of CBC as it is right now; it can't really engage anything but if something wants to attack it'll have to commit to that fight.
Just do NOT put it on ABC, you'll create a monster if you do. |
Samuel Nathas
The Disciples of Hasselhoff
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 20:01:00 -
[344] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Samuel Nathas wrote:Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.
When is the last time you ran a fleet without a scout, and where do you run these fleets?
scouts don't have MJD's :) and that is the point :) |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 20:53:00 -
[345] - Quote
I'm not sure if this is good or bad. More could be done to encourage good fights and prevent running away though, that's for sure.
It does seem that recent changes have focused just on the one side (running away) but not on the other (more options for locking down targets, better mechanics to encourage fights/PvP), which is probably more important. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1205
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:02:00 -
[346] - Quote
Samuel Nathas wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Samuel Nathas wrote:Fleet of X people with MMJD BC's jumps over, and realizes its a gate camp. Their FC screams "Everyone run MMJD!" and they do exactly that.
When is the last time you ran a fleet without a scout, and where do you run these fleets? scouts don't have MJD's :) and that is the point :)
I dont understand. The interceptor jumps into the gatecamp, and his fleet mjds in the previous system in a panic? |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
306
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:03:00 -
[347] - Quote
Bcs are in a really ****** place right now because of their inability to apply damage to anything small and their terrible base speed. The current meta is defined by the agility of cruisers and the application bonuses of a few niche ships, most noticeably the ishtar. The propagation of sig reduction bonuses and the general increase of speed of every ship since tiericide has left cbcs slow and ineffective. With slow warp speeds, slow movement speeds and no application to speak of the cbc is left with dps and tank it can't use, the idiot younger brother of the battleship doctrine, less effective and more bombable.
To make them relevant again you need to go back and say "Okay, what proportion of the max speed of the omen did the harbinger used to have? What proportion of the max agility of the omen did it used to have? How did it apply relative to the omen (omen's optimal range creates better tracking in real terms)?" and realise the degree to which they've been completely overshadowed by tiericide. Currently the game is "are you fast? if not do you have a crazy application bonus? if not are you insanely tanky?". If the answer to all 3 is no then it's not used and with cbcs it's no and mmjds won't change that. |
Vivianne Athonille
Athonille Logistics and Provisions
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:26:00 -
[348] - Quote
I and a few others who Liked my post on Page 1 are still curious if you intend to allow "all" Command Ships to fit this MJD. And by "all" we mean the Industrial Command Ship -- Orca.
I believe you have been looking for ways to encourage players to put the Orca on-grid. Having this available as an escape tool may be a step in that direction. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
241
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:39:00 -
[349] - Quote
Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
574
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:04:00 -
[350] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: In general, having a wide variety of possible outcomes for any fight beyond the extreme "We kill them all with minimal losses" and "We lose everyone with minimal kills" is very healthy for EVE's combat environment at all scales.
logistics nerf when? This. Stacking penalties on remote repairs please. I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. -áI AM A LOWSEC GANKER, HIGHSEC SCUM, NULLSEC BASTARD, WORMHOLE INVADER. Welcome to, welcome to, welcome to my scramble. GÖŃ |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9967
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:19:00 -
[351] - Quote
No. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Yelika Khan
Babylon Knights The Unthinkables
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:34:00 -
[352] - Quote
This is bad and you should feel bad about it. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1160
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:36:00 -
[353] - Quote
Vivianne Athonille wrote:I and a few others who Liked my post on Page 1 are still curious if you intend to allow "all" Command Ships to fit this MJD. And by "all" we mean the Industrial Command Ship -- Orca.
I believe you have been looking for ways to encourage players to put the Orca on-grid. Having this available as an escape tool may be a step in that direction.
I asked and got a negative on that one. Sorry, but at least you do have an answer. (And yes, I like flying an Orca now and again as well.)
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1160
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:37:00 -
[354] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:No.
Your logic and brevity stun me.
Sadly the argument contains nothing I feel obligated to kick up the ladder.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
ZecsMarquis
Destroyer's Inc.
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:38:00 -
[355] - Quote
I've gotten 16 pages in and wanted to get my thoughts out before continuing. I have a couple added suggestions, some not quite as great as others.
If there is not a serious balance issue that I am aware of can we introduce that a focused T2 Hictor point stop a spool up as well as scrambler? I feel like this is an idea worth considering as the focused script only tackling supers is very niche and Hictor's as a whole are used for this purpose probably more than the actual bubbling. Though I know for wormholing it is more common. The focused disruption script for the T2 module is what I mean if that sounds confusing.
Second idea: Introduce a Jump Disrupt Probe for the Interdiction Sphere Launcher (oldschool name dunno if its still called this) that stops all MJD spool ups or at least if it isnt already spooling it cannot be activated, similar to the warp if you initiate warp before a bubble goes down it basically negates it. I mention this idea as it gives more credibility to some earlier posts about the Dictor being more obsolete. Introduce an expanded launcher variant but it takes more fitting and even with crazy implants/rigs you can only fit one as opposed to the standard two launcher cloaky fit. Or give the role penalty of only one may be fitted as some other classes have for other modules.
Also final idea: maybe give the MJD similar mechanics of an acceleration gate. Once the spooling has started only a scrambler can deactivate as is now but if Hictor points it with its script the spooling continues but also prevents it from being activated like a scrambler if it is not already spooling. Just in case none of these were proposed in the thread or in internal discussions already I thought I'd take a whack at it.
Thoughts? |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
452
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:41:00 -
[356] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd.
+1
It is doubly true since fast tackle - inties, frigates - don't mix well with gate guns. Because of that, there is effectively no counter to this module that works in lowsec. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9967
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:48:00 -
[357] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Sadly the argument contains nothing I feel obligated to kick up the ladder. That's fine, because I was replying to the people asking for RR stacking penalties. I've edited the post to make that clear. If you want my comprehensive reply regarding MMJD it's on the previous page. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1338
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:55:00 -
[358] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts.
The Rules: 26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9968
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 23:04:00 -
[359] - Quote
I seriously disagree that we shouldn't post killboard links here. In balance discussions they can be quite helpful. I think CCP should revisit their rules in this case. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
778
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 23:07:00 -
[360] - Quote
The MMJd will have the side effect, of bringing more BC into the field. Sure they will have the possibility to escape, but they do not need to escape if they are not there at all! So more battlecruisers to Fight, more battlecruisers to be used in more space.
Sure fewer easy kills of new players who stray into dangerous space, but more use of them and more GF.
What's not to like? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1160
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 23:14:00 -
[361] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Sadly the argument contains nothing I feel obligated to kick up the ladder. That's fine, because I was replying to the people asking for RR stacking penalties. I've edited the post to make that clear. If you want my comprehensive reply regarding MMJD it's on the previous page.
Please accept my apology. I take issue with one word posts but your earlier one was anything but that. That post was to the point and well done (regardless of whether I agree or not, I appreciate constructive arguments for and against a concept)
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2910
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 23:38:00 -
[362] - Quote
I strongly feel that MJDs (both the existing ones and the new ones) should be recoded so that they are stopped by any targeted warp interdiction effect.
Warp scrams, warp disruptors and infinite points should all shut them down. I'm less concerned about bubbles.
This module will either be unused, or it is going to reduce fights in both lowsec and highsec. One way it's a harmless waste of development time, the other way it's actively bad for the game. Set the universe on fire - then sell the survivors ash. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9968
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 00:26:00 -
[363] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Sadly the argument contains nothing I feel obligated to kick up the ladder. That's fine, because I was replying to the people asking for RR stacking penalties. I've edited the post to make that clear. If you want my comprehensive reply regarding MMJD it's on the previous page. Please accept my apology. I take issue with one word posts but your earlier one was anything but that. That post was to the point and well done (regardless of whether I agree or not, I appreciate constructive arguments for and against a concept) m You don't really need to apologize, it's not a big deal. But thank you anyways. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1446
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 00:39:00 -
[364] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There are definitely situations where Attack Battlecruisers in particular could become a problem with this module, and we will definitely be considering the option of leaving ABCs off the list for the initial release.
This. If they are going to be released, they should be a tool for getting combat BC's in to and out of the poo. Allowing Nado nano-MJD sniper gangs of extreme douchery is not a step toward a game where you avoid, and I quote, "everyone dies for minimal kills".
Shoot that which lieth before you and tackle that which runneth away - Ancient Minmatar proverb @_@ http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
143
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 00:47:00 -
[365] - Quote
I'm actually all for this module. As a lowsec dweller I firmly believe this will add a world of fun and hopefully we'll get to see more BC's roaming around with this.
I had an interesting fight with a prophecy about 2 weeks ago. As a FW guy, it's normally frigs 23/7 (soon to be changing? ) and seeing that BC means something interesting to kill. Myself and another guy tackled it in long range kitey frigs. It would have been a super slow, long helpless death but the Proph pilot made EvE fun again. He deployed a Mobile MJD unit, aligned to sun, turned at the last second and activated the spool up timer.
The fun and excitement trying to manage where's going and getting ready to try and catch him when he activated was fun. As we don't encounter the mobile units very often in a fight, it was a bit of confusion and chaos trying to decide whether or not to shoot the deployable which again added a lit more of the old EvE style of choices and varied game-play. After the guy successfully micro-jumped and then warped off to his safe, I applauded him in local for the creative escape.
So yes, this module will make getting away easier, but it also changes the dynamics of the game so that it doesn't always have to be EvE Online - Kiters edition. Should be fun and make brawling BC's a little more relevant. |
Franky Saken
Mafia Redux
44
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 01:03:00 -
[366] - Quote
Why are you not tweaking the distances and spool times and such?
This way it's only a run-away button which mostly hurts in solo and small gang kiting outfits where it just becomes: bring a lach.
If you do this to frigates at well (eventually) you could basically kill an entire subclass of flying.
I'd rather see something class-based where the numbers are based on optimal ranges of kiting variants of the classes and then tuning the spool up time so its something like (time to notice effect) * (average speed of ship + 2) so you have a second to notice and 1 or 2 seconds to respond to it.
If you do, say, 10 km for frigates, 20-30 km for cruisers, 50-75 km for bcs, and 100-150 km for bss then suddenly this module doesn't turn into a "get out anyways and if you want me to not do that enjoy being hard tackled and dead" but into an offensively usable module (as well as defensively) which is very skill and observation based (how fast can you see the effect spool up, how fast can you pick a direction to go in to avoid getting hard tackled).
Everything about this can be tuned of course but I just think it'd be way cooler. web/scram frigs can suddenly get that second option to get on top of a condor with their mjd if he isnt paying attention and just doing orbit-17-afk. Suddenly solo pilots that like to fly a stabber or a vaga or such (lol who even flies turret ships now in cruisers-online, game of projection) can be jumped on top of by a thorax.
If you put a 100km on bcs as well none of the cruisers is even going to be able to burn to them and repoint before they align. Please take ship classes and effective ranges into account so this doesnt just turn into a get-out-of-jail-free-card for armor bcs. |
Vivianne Athonille
Athonille Logistics and Provisions
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 01:26:00 -
[367] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Vivianne Athonille wrote:I and a few others who Liked my post on Page 1 are still curious if you intend to allow "all" Command Ships to fit this MJD. And by "all" we mean the Industrial Command Ship -- Orca.
I believe you have been looking for ways to encourage players to put the Orca on-grid. Having this available as an escape tool may be a step in that direction. I asked and got a negative on that one. Sorry, but at least you do have an answer. (And yes, I like flying an Orca now and again as well.) m Not exactly surprised. The Orca is such an odd fit when compared to other Command Ships, which is why I began advocating for a new breed to use in supporting Expedition (Prospect) operations. The "limited" availability of the MMJD just reinforces my current plans to use a different Command Ship in the near term.
|
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
242
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 01:35:00 -
[368] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd. +1 It is doubly true since fast tackle - inties, frigates - don't mix well with gate guns. Because of that, there is effectively no counter to this module that works in lowsec.
absolutely - lowsec just got boosted with the changes to gate guns and now its taking a kick to the nuts. Going to suck seeing all those ships get away cause you cant get tackle applied fast enough.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
217
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 01:50:00 -
[369] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd. +1 It is doubly true since fast tackle - inties, frigates - don't mix well with gate guns. Because of that, there is effectively no counter to this module that works in lowsec. absolutely - lowsec just got boosted with the changes to gate guns and now its taking a major step backwards with small grps and solos really taking a hard shot to the nuts. Try a Proteus or Recon, or just logi on a Keres. Works just fine. |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
143
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 01:55:00 -
[370] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd. +1 It is doubly true since fast tackle - inties, frigates - don't mix well with gate guns. Because of that, there is effectively no counter to this module that works in lowsec. absolutely - lowsec just got boosted with the changes to gate guns and now its taking a major step backwards with small grps and solos really taking a hard shot to the nuts.
Why because you can no longer perma-tackle with your insert long point, snaked, and/or boosted insert annoying frig here against a brawler? Shame on you. No one is stopping you from committing to a fight like a brawler has to. Now the brawler has the same ability to disengage from the kiter when he knows he can't catch him. |
|
Bosquit
Tempest Legion
74
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 02:00:00 -
[371] - Quote
There needs to be more thought on this. Just copying the Battleship one and slapping it on Battlecruisers isn't going to work. Without implementing more counters to the mod, it will create problems and force a meta of scramblers on people. In lowsec I agree that is could be a rather large problem, with gate guns and all.
Allowing Scrams, Disruptors, Infini points to stop this mod is probably a pretty decent balance point. It allows the mod to be used for positioning and allows for a lot of a fleet to use it as an escape module. The counter to it is essentially fleet skill of spreading points properly.
"Insert Philosophical Statement Here" |
GreenSeed
1016
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 02:00:00 -
[372] - Quote
this is a bad idea.
SP inflation is a huge problem in this game, currently most established alliances can fly CS doctrines... will people still insist on telling new players "get out of highec and go make a mark on null" when Absolutions and Astartes will completely annihilate any t1 doctrine? adding stuff like this new MJDs will make the problem even worse... i would NOT want to face off against a 50 man astarte or vulture fleet with this on. they can already decimate most t1 BS fleets, now they get even MORE mobility? this is bad...
i don't mind giving it to ABCs, i think its great. but on Command ships its just impossible to balance. a command ship that's boosting on grid would love to be able to hop around, and that would help a great deal on bringing the links on grid. but a combat fitted CS is way too powerful already. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Mordus Angels
899
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 02:10:00 -
[373] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:The MMJd will have the side effect, of bringing more BC into the field. Sure they will have the possibility to escape, but they do not need to escape if they are not there at all! So more battlecruisers to Fight, more battlecruisers to be used in more space.
Sure fewer easy kills of new players who stray into dangerous space, but more use of them and more GF.
What's not to like?
Weather you can bounce a point doesn't matter, a faster feet will STILL run you down at 2.5au/s
So meh, interesting, but nothing to get worked about. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 02:48:00 -
[374] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:
Why because you can no longer perma-tackle with your insert long point, snaked, and/or boosted insert annoying frig here against a brawler? Shame on you. No one is stopping you from committing to a fight like a brawler has to. Now the brawler has the same ability to disengage from the kiter when he knows he can't catch him.
EDIT: p.s. Bring a scram and all of your problems are solved. It's not like every ship in game minus a BS is faster than a BC or CS....
-----------------------------WHOOOOSH--------------->>>>>>
O < (your head)
To stop a MJD ship, you have to get in range and get a scram on it before the spool up time. Frigates are the ships to do this with; they have the speed to get in range in time. Frigates are almost instapoped by gate guns, and as the first ship on the target, are also guarunteed to be shot at by gate guns. So tackle frig goes ZOOM > Scram > Dead > Target escapes.
IOW, the intended counter to this module is nonfunctional in lowsec.
This is about tackling on a gate, not the module's use in a fight, so your post completely misses the point. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Challenged
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP Brave Collective
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 03:13:00 -
[375] - Quote
Seems like the people not happy with this are the ones flying in inty gangs with only long points, or fast cruisers at medium range.
Bring back the BRAWL. Heavy ships warping to zero on each other, blasting each other into oblivion! Booyeah! |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
631
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 03:17:00 -
[376] - Quote
Challenged wrote:Bring back the BRAWL. Heavy ships warping to zero on each other, blasting each other into oblivion! Booyeah! BALLS DEEP MOFOS |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2521
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 03:31:00 -
[377] - Quote
Challenged wrote:Seems like the people not happy with this are the ones flying in inty gangs with only long points, or fast cruisers at medium range.
Bring back the BRAWL. Heavy ships warping to zero on each other, blasting each other into oblivion! Booyeah!
That happens now but it shouldn't be the only way to fight either, which is what we're slowly being forced into.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
306
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 03:32:00 -
[378] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd. +1 It is doubly true since fast tackle - inties, frigates - don't mix well with gate guns. Because of that, there is effectively no counter to this module that works in lowsec. absolutely - lowsec just got boosted with the changes to gate guns and now its taking a major step backwards with small grps and solos really taking a hard shot to the nuts. Try a Proteus or Recon, or just logi on a Keres. Works just fine. Your solution to this is that solo pilots bring more logis and eafs? I think you may have failed to understand the nature of the problem. |
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 03:42:00 -
[379] - Quote
I'm amazed that CCP is wasting development ressources on this mods ,without even trying to fix the t1 BC lines and their navy counterpart .Turn off the water before messing with the pipes .... On the mod itself 100 Km is too much ,and i feel the commands ships would be Op with . |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 04:04:00 -
[380] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Challenged wrote:Bring back the BRAWL. Heavy ships warping to zero on each other, blasting each other into oblivion! Booyeah! BALLS DEEP MOFOS
QFT
Also, I just had an idea.
Rather than a MJD jumping you Xkm straight forward..........it drops you on your current target as long as it's within it's range.
Viola. Kitey McKiterson can't complain that he can't keep targets pinned down with his long point and the brawlers get a nice new toy.
It's a win-win.
|
|
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3593
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 04:39:00 -
[381] - Quote
This module is going to be awesome! The only thing better is the 18 pages of tears that it generated... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
778
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 04:46:00 -
[382] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:
Why because you can no longer perma-tackle with your insert long point, snaked, and/or boosted insert annoying frig here against a brawler? Shame on you. No one is stopping you from committing to a fight like a brawler has to. Now the brawler has the same ability to disengage from the kiter when he knows he can't catch him.
EDIT: p.s. Bring a scram and all of your problems are solved. It's not like every ship in game minus a BS is faster than a BC or CS....
-----------------------------WHOOOOSH--------------->>>>>> O < (your head) To stop a MJD ship, you have to get in range and get a scram on it before the spool up time. Frigates are the ships to do this with; they have the speed to get in range in time. Frigates are almost instapoped by gate guns, and as the first ship on the target, are also guarunteed to be shot at by gate guns. So tackle frig goes ZOOM > Scram > Dead > Target escapes. IOW, the intended counter to this module is nonfunctional in lowsec. This is about tackling on a gate, not the module's use in a fight, so your post completely misses the point.
No. Chase it with an interceptor, It warps straight away follow it! You will come out of warp before he does. You do not have to sit there scratching your head at the gate feeling hard done by. Work a little for the kills. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
778
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 04:55:00 -
[383] - Quote
Onictus wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:The MMJd will have the side effect, of bringing more BC into the field. Sure they will have the possibility to escape, but they do not need to escape if they are not there at all! So more battlecruisers to Fight, more battlecruisers to be used in more space.
Sure fewer easy kills of new players who stray into dangerous space, but more use of them and more GF.
What's not to like? Weather you can bounce a point doesn't matter, a faster feet will STILL run you down at 2.5au/s So meh, interesting, but nothing to get worked about.
Absolutely right, when we MJD away and straigt into warp, a little effort and skill will get you on the landing BC even before he lands. if he has a good safe, pre set up that he warps to, then well done BC pilot you deserve to slip their clutches. Gates were not designed to provide easy kills that reward anyone waiting with an instalock .what counter does a BC currently have? Let good pilots use this to good effect, and good campers to learn to counter it. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
342
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 05:29:00 -
[384] - Quote
So many bad posts in this page. So many people with no PvP experience mouthing off to players that are vastly more knowledgeable and experienced. Since you cannot post killboards, can we instead simply post kills of the more belligerent and misguided?
Challenged: 104 Kills / 58 Deaths
Arthur Aihaken: 65 Kills / 171 Deaths
epicurus ataraxia: 12 Kills / 17 Deaths
Does experience, and in game knowledge have any weight placed on the comments here? Because from what I am seeing- most if not all of the PRO MMJD are people have rather poor PvP skill / knowledge / experience. While the OVERWHELMING majority of people against MMJD have quite a bit more skill / knowledge / experience.
Can anyone help clarify this for me? |
badboymark
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 05:34:00 -
[385] - Quote
Chessur wrote:So many bad posts in this page. So many people with no PvP experience mouthing off to players that are vastly more knowledgeable and experienced. Since you cannot post killboards, can we instead simply post kills of the more belligerent and misguided?
Challenged: 104 Kills / 58 Deaths
Arthur Aihaken: 65 Kills / 171 Deaths
epicurus ataraxia: 12 Kills / 17 Deaths
Does experience, and in game knowledge have any weight placed on the comments here? Because from what I am seeing- most if not all of the PRO MMJD are people have rather poor PvP skill / knowledge / experience. While the OVERWHELMING majority of people against MMJD have quite a bit more skill / knowledge / experience.
Can anyone help clarify this for me?
This is good I like this. So ccp well you listen to the people that actually play the game or the fans yelling from the sideline's.
|
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 05:37:00 -
[386] - Quote
Chessur wrote:So many bad posts in this page. So many people with no PvP experience mouthing off to players that are vastly more knowledgeable and experienced. Since you cannot post killboards, can we instead simply post kills of the more belligerent and misguided?
Challenged: 104 Kills / 58 Deaths
Arthur Aihaken: 65 Kills / 171 Deaths
epicurus ataraxia: 12 Kills / 17 Deaths
Does experience, and in game knowledge have any weight placed on the comments here? Because from what I am seeing- most if not all of the PRO MMJD are people have rather poor PvP skill / knowledge / experience. While the OVERWHELMING majority of people against MMJD have quite a bit more skill / knowledge / experience.
Can anyone help clarify this for me?
As we all know, EVE is a single character-per-account and single account-per-player world. This means that anything posted by a character with no discernable pvp history is, in fact, stupid.
Also, this is a form of ad hominem. The facts of the discussion are what matters, the source is irrelevent. Everyone could be anonymous and the content would not change. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
AskariRising
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 05:44:00 -
[387] - Quote
im waiting for small MJD's for my interceptors lol |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 05:48:00 -
[388] - Quote
Back on topic.
I want to reinforce the feedback about it's range. Normal BC combat range (not counting ABCs) is 50km and under. This module does nothing to encourage BC combat. It is an escape device, and cannot be anything else due to the limitations of the platform on which it is mounted. At the range this module operates at, on-grid tactical bookmarks already serve the same in-combat purpose. Which once again leaves it primarily as an escape tool.
Maybe (I'm being charitable and trying to find a combat role where this module makes sense) this is meant to give BCs mobility on a large fleet field, against larger ships that are more spread out. If so, it's poorly implemented and unfocused. It's not worth unbalancing the rest of gameplay for this single niche purpose.
The MMJD as implemented will not fulfill the intended purpose of encouraging CBC's on the battlefield. It will make avoiding PVP easier; it will not significantly change the composition of gangs (jump range / weapon range mismatch prevents sniper tactics).
Suggestions to correct these flaws: Make it vulnerable to HIC scripted points. Reduce the jump range to 75km. Make it vulnerable to bumping, just like standard warp alignment. Adjust Lowsec Gate Guns to allow 10-15 seconds on target for an Interceptor that agresses, allowing the Interceptor to serve as a counter to this module. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
342
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 05:55:00 -
[389] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Back on topic.
I want to reinforce the feedback about it's range. Normal BC combat range (not counting ABCs) is 50km and under. This module does nothing to encourage BC combat. It is an escape device, and cannot be anything else due to the limitations of the platform on which it is mounted. At the range this module operates at, on-grid tactical bookmarks already serve the same in-combat purpose. Which once again leaves it primarily as an escape tool.
Maybe (I'm being charitable and trying to find a combat role where this module makes sense) this is meant to give BCs mobility on a large fleet field, against larger ships that are more spread out. If so, it's poorly implemented and unfocused. It's not worth unbalancing the rest of gameplay for this single niche purpose.
The MMJD as implemented will not fulfill the intended purpose of encouraging CBC's on the battlefield. It will make avoiding PVP easier; it will not significantly change the composition of gangs (jump range / weapon range mismatch prevents sniper tactics).
Suggestions to correct these flaws: Make it vulnerable to HIC scripted points. Reduce the jump range to 75km. Make it vulnerable to bumping, just like standard warp alignment. Adjust Lowsec Gate Guns to allow 10-15 seconds on target for an Interceptor that agresses, allowing the Interceptor to serve as a counter to this module.
Just make long points stop the MJD. Dont give 48 ships a get out of jail free card, when inside bubbles, or long pointed. That is ridiculous |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
342
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 05:59:00 -
[390] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Chessur wrote:So many bad posts in this page. So many people with no PvP experience mouthing off to players that are vastly more knowledgeable and experienced. Since you cannot post killboards, can we instead simply post kills of the more belligerent and misguided?
Challenged: 104 Kills / 58 Deaths
Arthur Aihaken: 65 Kills / 171 Deaths
epicurus ataraxia: 12 Kills / 17 Deaths
Does experience, and in game knowledge have any weight placed on the comments here? Because from what I am seeing- most if not all of the PRO MMJD are people have rather poor PvP skill / knowledge / experience. While the OVERWHELMING majority of people against MMJD have quite a bit more skill / knowledge / experience.
Can anyone help clarify this for me? As we all know, EVE is a single character-per-account and single account-per-player world. This means that anything posted by a character with no discernable pvp history is, in fact, stupid. Also, this is a form of ad hominem. The facts of the discussion are what matters, the source is irrelevent. Everyone could be anonymous and the content would not change.
Ok what facts are being argued here? What concrete numbers do you have about a module that isn't even released yet? Where are these truths?
This entire discussion is opinions about a hypothetical mod which is not in the game yet.
The source of the opinion is irrelevant? Ok. Next time you are in the hospital, and have someone looking at MRI images of your brain, who are you more likely to believe.
The custodian who says: Nope, doesn't look like cancer to me. I don't think so because I saw another image like this on a computer, and that was not cancer.
Or
The doctor who says: Yah, this may be cancer. Based off my many years of experience, and education in medical school- I can logically say that this group of cells looks cancerous.
According to you- both the custodian and the doctor should have equal value, and weight on their opinion of the brain MRI |
|
badboymark
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:01:00 -
[391] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:badboymark wrote:Chessur wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Back on topic.
I want to reinforce the feedback about it's range. Normal BC combat range (not counting ABCs) is 50km and under. This module does nothing to encourage BC combat. It is an escape device, and cannot be anything else due to the limitations of the platform on which it is mounted. At the range this module operates at, on-grid tactical bookmarks already serve the same in-combat purpose. Which once again leaves it primarily as an escape tool.
Maybe (I'm being charitable and trying to find a combat role where this module makes sense) this is meant to give BCs mobility on a large fleet field, against larger ships that are more spread out. If so, it's poorly implemented and unfocused. It's not worth unbalancing the rest of gameplay for this single niche purpose.
The MMJD as implemented will not fulfill the intended purpose of encouraging CBC's on the battlefield. It will make avoiding PVP easier; it will not significantly change the composition of gangs (jump range / weapon range mismatch prevents sniper tactics).
Suggestions to correct these flaws: Make it vulnerable to HIC scripted points. Reduce the jump range to 75km. Make it vulnerable to bumping, just like standard warp alignment. Adjust Lowsec Gate Guns to allow 10-15 seconds on target for an Interceptor that agresses, allowing the Interceptor to serve as a counter to this module. Just make long points stop the MJD. Dont give 48 ships a get out of jail free card, when inside bubbles, or long pointed. That is ridiculous What about if faction disruptors stopped them ? That would be a simple warp strength thing. Which is a good idea as well (2+ long points deactivates it). +1
I'm not sure that would work because wouldn't that meann you can turn off MWD ? it would have to be a special trait or something right ? |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
342
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:03:00 -
[392] - Quote
badboymark wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:badboymark wrote:Chessur wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Back on topic.
I want to reinforce the feedback about it's range. Normal BC combat range (not counting ABCs) is 50km and under. This module does nothing to encourage BC combat. It is an escape device, and cannot be anything else due to the limitations of the platform on which it is mounted. At the range this module operates at, on-grid tactical bookmarks already serve the same in-combat purpose. Which once again leaves it primarily as an escape tool.
Maybe (I'm being charitable and trying to find a combat role where this module makes sense) this is meant to give BCs mobility on a large fleet field, against larger ships that are more spread out. If so, it's poorly implemented and unfocused. It's not worth unbalancing the rest of gameplay for this single niche purpose.
The MMJD as implemented will not fulfill the intended purpose of encouraging CBC's on the battlefield. It will make avoiding PVP easier; it will not significantly change the composition of gangs (jump range / weapon range mismatch prevents sniper tactics).
Suggestions to correct these flaws: Make it vulnerable to HIC scripted points. Reduce the jump range to 75km. Make it vulnerable to bumping, just like standard warp alignment. Adjust Lowsec Gate Guns to allow 10-15 seconds on target for an Interceptor that agresses, allowing the Interceptor to serve as a counter to this module. Just make long points stop the MJD. Dont give 48 ships a get out of jail free card, when inside bubbles, or long pointed. That is ridiculous What about if faction disruptors stopped them ? That would be a simple warp strength thing. Which is a good idea as well (2+ long points deactivates it). +1 I'm not sure that would work because wouldn't that meann you can turn off MWD ? it would have to be a special trait or something right ?
No. Warp strength does not determine MWD on / off. That is a warp scram only type of modifier on the module.
+2 Long points, already exist in game. They are officer long points. They do not turn off MWD |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:04:00 -
[393] - Quote
badboymark wrote:Ines Tegator wrote: That would be a simple warp strength thing. Which is a good idea as well (2+ long points deactivates it). +1
I'm not sure that would work because wouldn't that meann you can turn off MWD ? it would have to be a special trait or something right ? Yeah, it would suck if it worked on MWD too. Definately a MJD only thing. At the least the general is already in game for warp stabs.
note: if implemented, don't allow stabs to work on the MJD module. so many problems... - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
badboymark
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:06:00 -
[394] - Quote
Well they turn off MJDs ?? Also officer point are only for BS or larger due to PG need's........ so maybe we can get something for Sub BS class ship's ? |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
307
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:08:00 -
[395] - Quote
So much effort to try and rework the implementation of a bad idea so it does minimum damage to the game. I agree that making it not work when longpointed or having a warp strength threshold of 2 or making you go 0m/s when you land would all help but the fundamental issue is that this is a module which is directly at odds with the functionality of the long point in eve pvp. |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
307
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:10:00 -
[396] - Quote
badboymark wrote: Well they turn off MJDs ?? Also officer point are only for BS or larger due to PG need's........ so maybe we can get something for Sub BS class ship's ?
Officer points do not turn off MJDs. Scrams have two points of warp strength when counting for the effect of warp core stabilisers but two points of warp strength, such as two warp disruptors, are not a scram. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
355
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:11:00 -
[397] - Quote
with this module release we now need a scram web module all in one so i can have mwd mjd tackle module and injector. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:30:00 -
[398] - Quote
or you could fly a myrm which has great dps, more than enough tank to endure someone trying to kite it and enough mids for mwd, injector, mjd, scram and web |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9974
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 06:48:00 -
[399] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Chessur wrote:So many bad posts in this page. So many people with no PvP experience mouthing off to players that are vastly more knowledgeable and experienced. Since you cannot post killboards, can we instead simply post kills of the more belligerent and misguided?
Challenged: 104 Kills / 58 Deaths
Arthur Aihaken: 65 Kills / 171 Deaths
epicurus ataraxia: 12 Kills / 17 Deaths
Does experience, and in game knowledge have any weight placed on the comments here? Because from what I am seeing- most if not all of the PRO MMJD are people have rather poor PvP skill / knowledge / experience. While the OVERWHELMING majority of people against MMJD have quite a bit more skill / knowledge / experience.
Can anyone help clarify this for me? As we all know, EVE is a single character-per-account and single account-per-player world. This means that anything posted by a character with no discernable pvp history is, in fact, stupid. Also, this is a form of ad hominem. The facts of the discussion are what matters, the source is irrelevent. Everyone could be anonymous and the content would not change. Yes, I'm sure people with lots of PVP experience are posting on characters that have very little. The vast majority of people who post with alts do so because they're afraid of retribution for their postings. People who PVP aren't afraid of that - most would probably welcome the attempt.
However much someone does or doesn't PVP is relevant to how likely it is that their argument is based in experience rather than conjecture. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
116
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:01:00 -
[400] - Quote
Interesting idea for DSTs, I'd expand this to the Orca for sure.
However, the BC thing is more complicated. MJD is meant to enhance mobility on slow and cumbersome ships.
1) ABCs don't need a mobility buff 2) CBCs don't have the lock range to use MMJDs as combat tactic
Which means that on CBCs, MMJD @ 100 would be a purely evasive tactic, but it wouldn't help them in actual combat at all. Make the MMJD range 50km, leave ABCs out of it, and it becomes an interesting tactical tool for CBCs.
|
|
Kali Omega
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
145
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:05:00 -
[401] - Quote
No..plain and simple |
Meandering Milieu
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:09:00 -
[402] - Quote
I'm up to page 18, but there is a bit of confusion on my part due to this thread and another.
This thread: Too easy to avoid fights, easy get out of jail free card, ect ect ect.
DST Thread: Worthless bonus, won't really help you escape anything, and single dictor will still stop you.
Either these are either overpowered get out of fight modules or they aren't, and I'm not sure which.
Suggestion, since CCP seems to want to nerf power projection, balance the isotope market, and give people these mods: Require a small amount of multispectrum topes to use them. Nothing huge, just a handful will do per jump. |
Meandering Milieu
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:10:00 -
[403] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Interesting idea for DSTs, I'd expand this to the Orca for sure.
However, the BC thing is more complicated. MJD is meant to enhance mobility on slow and cumbersome ships.
1) ABCs don't need a mobility buff 2) CBCs don't have the lock range to use MMJDs as combat tactic
Which means that on CBCs, MMJD @ 100 would be a purely evasive tactic, but it wouldn't help them in actual combat at all. Make the MMJD range 50km, leave ABCs out of it, and it becomes an interesting tactical tool for CBCs.
What they really needed to do was capital MJDs. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
254
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:14:00 -
[404] - Quote
William Darkk wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:These would work well on T3s and HACs also. That would completely defeat the point.
T3's could be given them during rebalance to make some use out of the less popular subsystems. Versatility over specialisation and all that. LP store weapon cost rebalance |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
254
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:16:00 -
[405] - Quote
Meandering Milieu wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:Interesting idea for DSTs, I'd expand this to the Orca for sure.
However, the BC thing is more complicated. MJD is meant to enhance mobility on slow and cumbersome ships.
1) ABCs don't need a mobility buff 2) CBCs don't have the lock range to use MMJDs as combat tactic
Which means that on CBCs, MMJD @ 100 would be a purely evasive tactic, but it wouldn't help them in actual combat at all. Make the MMJD range 50km, leave ABCs out of it, and it becomes an interesting tactical tool for CBCs.
What they really needed to do was capital MJDs.
You already have something that delivers you, from multiple systems away, right to within 5km of whoevers day you're ruining. What more do you want? LP store weapon cost rebalance |
Priestess Lin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:19:00 -
[406] - Quote
ABCs should not get them. |
Meandering Milieu
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:27:00 -
[407] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Meandering Milieu wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:Interesting idea for DSTs, I'd expand this to the Orca for sure.
However, the BC thing is more complicated. MJD is meant to enhance mobility on slow and cumbersome ships.
1) ABCs don't need a mobility buff 2) CBCs don't have the lock range to use MMJDs as combat tactic
Which means that on CBCs, MMJD @ 100 would be a purely evasive tactic, but it wouldn't help them in actual combat at all. Make the MMJD range 50km, leave ABCs out of it, and it becomes an interesting tactical tool for CBCs.
What they really needed to do was capital MJDs. You already have something that delivers you, from multiple systems away, right to within 5km of whoevers day you're ruining. What more do you want?
The ability to jump from one cyno to another in the same system. The ability to bridge to a cyno in the same system would be amazing too.
Not even a cap pilot, I'm just messing around. The ability for a cap ship to instantly jump 100km would be nice though, since MJDs were apparently introduced to make ships more mobile. The battleship class clearly deserves it, and caps are even less maneuverable on field. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9975
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:46:00 -
[408] - Quote
Caps don't need MJDs. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 07:55:00 -
[409] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:bcs don't need MJDs. fixed
|
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
116
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 08:00:00 -
[410] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:bcs don't need MJDs. fixed
Combat BCs most certainly need something, more desperately than any other ship class atm. However, MMJD might not be it, and especially not 100km one.
|
|
YariScur
POD Based Lifeforms The Gorgon Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 08:03:00 -
[411] - Quote
This module will make situation with mid-size pvp even worse than it is now. Could you please analyze pros&cons for longer period.
Mid-size MJD imho means "no brain, no tactics"
Thank you. |
Mike Whiite
Space Mutts The Harlequin's
353
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 08:07:00 -
[412] - Quote
Joining the people that want to leave the ABC out of it.
BS already struggle for a place in small gang warfare, this module would out class them ABC already do more damage than most ABS. |
Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
82
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 08:49:00 -
[413] - Quote
I only know small gang pvp so I don't have enough know-how about how it will effect mid or large fleets. But as a "small ganger" I've lot of experience.
In short: I don't like the idea. Can't see add anything positive to the game.
A inty needs ~20s to move 100k to land a scram. That will give any sniping BC too much time to move another 100k to another direction making small engagements less fun.
Maby just give it to the t2 versions and not the t1s? |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2141
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 08:52:00 -
[414] - Quote
I still don't get what is up with the whole BC's are underpowered idea..
Stat wise they are pretty good.. But they are in an awkward middleground speed/powerwise.. Isn't that ok? I mean.. what are you going to do with them other than make them overpowered again to make them relevant? =/ BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Mody Warrior
Krasnodar sweet
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 08:58:00 -
[415] - Quote
CCP STOP THIS
bcs don't need MJDs |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
107
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 09:20:00 -
[416] - Quote
Walextheone wrote:A inty needs ~20s to move 100k to land a scram. That will give any sniping BC too much time to move another 100k to another direction making small engagements less fun.
Maby just give it to the t2 versions and not the t1s?
Don't forget that ships exit the jump at 100% speed sop they can instantly warp to their aligned direction. If you cannot catch it with a scram on the first go, it's already gone. |
rsantos
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 09:39:00 -
[417] - Quote
Please!
Remove the disruptor immunity from all MJD modules. Game already had a module to counter that.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 09:41:00 -
[418] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:To stop a MJD ship, you have to get in range and get a scram on it before the spool up time.
What's wrong with using a fast cruiser?
They'll be targeting BC's so lock time wont be an issue. BCs are also slow, so are limited in their ability to close gaps. Cruisers can suck up gate guns just fine and can be fit hella fast.
Serious question, I really don't see many things getting away from the quicker cruisers in the spool time. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1230
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 09:46:00 -
[419] - Quote
I don't think this is a good idea. |
Aiphona
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 09:51:00 -
[420] - Quote
Might as well just eliminate the long point entirely and just dictate that every fight now has to happen in scram range or your opponent will simply teleport away.
so NO to MMJD !!!
Or make all MJD's possible to tackle with long point. It was ******** to begin with, why can a ship that is pointed warp???? |
|
Osant
Monks of War
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 09:59:00 -
[421] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie, what about counter-measures? AFAIK when MJD (large version) was just introduced CCP had an idea to deal with it using Mobile MJD Disruptors. But currently we have only one thing - Warp Scrambler and this is not enough ofc.
So my proposal as counter-measures (just a list of different variations):
- New mobile structure - Mobile MJD Disruptor (one size, T1/T2/Faction, radius as Large Mobile Warp Disruptor, affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump, also can't be anchored in activation range of Mobile Microjump structure)
- New probe for Interdiction Sphere Launcher - *%name%* Disrupt Probe (radius/volume as Warp Disrupt Probe, affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump)
- New script for Heavy Interdictors - Focused *%name%* Disruption (and again affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump)
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2141
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:00:00 -
[422] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:To stop a MJD ship, you have to get in range and get a scram on it before the spool up time. What's wrong with using a fast cruiser? They'll be targeting BC's so lock time wont be an issue. BCs are also slow, so are limited in their ability to close gaps. Cruisers can suck up gate guns just fine and can be fit hella fast. Serious question, I really don't see many things getting away from the quicker cruisers in the spool time.
Cruisers can suck up gate guns and be fast? Are you talking about blobbing BC's with logi? Because if so yea sure that will work. Otherwise not so much. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3283
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:09:00 -
[423] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I mean.. what are you going to do with them other than make them overpowered again to make them relevant? =/ The Typhoon is an example of what a BC should be imo. Oh god. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:19:00 -
[424] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:afkalt wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:To stop a MJD ship, you have to get in range and get a scram on it before the spool up time. What's wrong with using a fast cruiser? They'll be targeting BC's so lock time wont be an issue. BCs are also slow, so are limited in their ability to close gaps. Cruisers can suck up gate guns just fine and can be fit hella fast. Serious question, I really don't see many things getting away from the quicker cruisers in the spool time. Cruisers can suck up gate guns and be fast? Are you talking about blobbing BC's with logi? Because if so yea sure that will work. Otherwise not so much.
I meant they can suck it up enough until slower things arrive. For example a caracal can be fit to 35k EHP, 2117m/s with a 9k (no heat) scram. Let's say an 8s spool time - that's a 24-25k range (16km travel plus 9km module range) for the caracal to collar the BC. Doesn't seem massively unreasonable given how ponderous BCs are and the average distance things decloak off gate.
35k EHP should last plenty long enough until other ships get in on it and the caracal can disengage and reengage. Particularly as the mod has a 3 minute cooldown so that's 3 minutes of long points being just fine so long as the MJD is interrupted by the initial scram. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:28:00 -
[425] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:afkalt wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:To stop a MJD ship, you have to get in range and get a scram on it before the spool up time. What's wrong with using a fast cruiser? They'll be targeting BC's so lock time wont be an issue. BCs are also slow, so are limited in their ability to close gaps. Cruisers can suck up gate guns just fine and can be fit hella fast. Serious question, I really don't see many things getting away from the quicker cruisers in the spool time. Cruisers can suck up gate guns and be fast? Are you talking about blobbing BC's with logi? Because if so yea sure that will work. Otherwise not so much. I meant they can suck it up enough until slower things arrive. For example a caracal can be fit to 35k EHP, 2117m/s with a 9k (no heat) scram. Let's say an 8s spool time - that's a 24-25k range (16km travel plus 9km module range) for the caracal to collar the BC. Doesn't seem massively unreasonable given how ponderous BCs are and the average distance things decloak off gate. 35k EHP should last plenty long enough until other ships get in on it and the caracal can disengage and reengage. Particularly as the mod has a 3 minute cooldown so that's 3 minutes of long points being just fine so long as the MJD is interrupted by the initial scram. You appear to be saying here that to stop the bc from leaving you need to ram it in a smaller, faster, weaker ship than the bc in question. That's not a great solution to the issue with the module unless you have falcons/logis with you. The people suggesting this is poor game design aren't looking for more ways to get kills vs single ships with mass falcon and logi, rather the opposite. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1324
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:33:00 -
[426] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100. Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight.
This is a really good point plus it leaves battleships in a stronger position from a positioning sense, which is offset by their slower movement speeds
if it is moved down to the smaller Medium ships, like regular cruisers etc .. a further reduction would also make sense for the same reasons (50% of BS values doesn't seem to unreasonable)
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:34:00 -
[427] - Quote
CBCs are fine, stop being bad |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:35:00 -
[428] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:afkalt wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:afkalt wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:To stop a MJD ship, you have to get in range and get a scram on it before the spool up time. What's wrong with using a fast cruiser? They'll be targeting BC's so lock time wont be an issue. BCs are also slow, so are limited in their ability to close gaps. Cruisers can suck up gate guns just fine and can be fit hella fast. Serious question, I really don't see many things getting away from the quicker cruisers in the spool time. Cruisers can suck up gate guns and be fast? Are you talking about blobbing BC's with logi? Because if so yea sure that will work. Otherwise not so much. I meant they can suck it up enough until slower things arrive. For example a caracal can be fit to 35k EHP, 2117m/s with a 9k (no heat) scram. Let's say an 8s spool time - that's a 24-25k range (16km travel plus 9km module range) for the caracal to collar the BC. Doesn't seem massively unreasonable given how ponderous BCs are and the average distance things decloak off gate. 35k EHP should last plenty long enough until other ships get in on it and the caracal can disengage and reengage. Particularly as the mod has a 3 minute cooldown so that's 3 minutes of long points being just fine so long as the MJD is interrupted by the initial scram. You appear to be saying here that to stop the bc from leaving you need to ram it in a smaller, faster, weaker ship than the bc in question. That's not a great solution to the issue with the module unless you have falcons/logis with you. The people suggesting this is poor game design aren't looking for more ways to get kills vs single ships with mass falcon and logi, rather the opposite.
Not bump it, scram it.
I mean for goodness sakes "smaller, faster, weaker ship", so... pretty much all initial tackle then?
People are positing that it's impossible to catch as fast ships will insta pop to gate guns - I submit that a cruiser like the one I posted will tackle them just fine until the cavalry arrives as they are durable enough and fast enough to have a large margin of error.
I simply don't see how that's magically an issue tomorrow if it's not already an issue for you today. It's not even like it's a stretch or off the wall fit to adapt a nano cruiser to that role. |
LakeEnd
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
67
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:42:00 -
[429] - Quote
If you cant be talked out of releasing such module, could you at least shorten the range for the medium size varient? Maybe 50-75km MJD for medium vs 100km that large curretnly has. Would make all kinds of sense in my opinion. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:46:00 -
[430] - Quote
afkalt wrote: I simply don't see how that's magically an issue tomorrow if it's not already an issue for you today. It's not even like it's a stretch or off the wall fit to adapt a nano cruiser to that role.
I don't know how you think this works at the moment but basically right now you can fight ships in cruisers without having so many logi that you can **** up the piloting of the cruiser completely, get scrammed, scram them and be fine because "lol blobbing + falcons + logis". A great many people actually use piloting skill to fight bigger ships, rather than logis. Your suggestion of "that's okay, just scram the bc in your cruiser, your logis will keep you up" isn't actually helpful because it basically amounts to "to kill a bc you now have to blob it" whereas previously you didn't have to. You think you're describing the solution but you're actually agreeing about the problem. If the solution is "yeah, longpoints don't work, you gotta scram a big ship in your small ship and blob it" then we agree entirely about the situation and just don't think that's a good direction for the game to move in.
TLDR: "it's fine, the blob will save you" doesn't address the legitimate concerns of the smallgang/solo community here |
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1514
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:48:00 -
[431] - Quote
Make disrupters stop the MMJD. Problem solved!
The mobile jump drives and the mobile cyno inhibitor are examples of good ideas that were poorly implemented, so i'm kind of with the people who think CCP will make a mistake with them implementation of the MMJD. However, i like the idea of BCs being able to use a MJD but i feel it should only jump the ship 50km and disrupters should stop it. +1 |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 10:56:00 -
[432] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:afkalt wrote: I simply don't see how that's magically an issue tomorrow if it's not already an issue for you today. It's not even like it's a stretch or off the wall fit to adapt a nano cruiser to that role.
I don't know how you think this works at the moment but basically right now you can fight ships in cruisers without having so many logi that you can **** up the piloting of the cruiser completely, get scrammed, scram them and be fine because "lol blobbing + falcons + logis". A great many people actually use piloting skill to fight bigger ships, rather than logis. Your suggestion of "that's okay, just scram the bc in your cruiser, your logis will keep you up" isn't actually helpful because it basically amounts to "to kill a bc you now have to blob it" whereas previously you didn't have to. You think you're describing the solution but you're actually agreeing about the problem. If the solution is "yeah, longpoints don't work, you gotta scram a big ship in your small ship and blob it" then we agree entirely about the situation and just don't think that's a good direction for the game to move in. TLDR: "it's fine, the blob will save you" doesn't address the legitimate concerns of the smallgang/solo community here
No, seriously. You're going to have to explain it better than that. Bearing in mind the argument I'm disagreeing with is that "it is unreasonable to need a scram as anything which can do it will die instantly to gate guns".
However I submit the situation is thus:
Today: Tackle BC - tank gate guns/warp off after heavier tackle arrives
Tomorrow Tackle BC - tank gate guns/warp off after heavier tackle arrives
Difference being tomorrow you need can't use a long point so you need a quicker ship to get a hold of it...aaaand that's about it. Changes the dynamic a little sure, but like I said, it's not like it's a completely gimped fit with nanos out the ears and naff all EHP. It's a decent enough fit which will be able to grab them.
Question: If a long point magically worked, how does the situation change? Apart from you can use a heavier tackle than a cruiser. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:04:00 -
[433] - Quote
You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
120
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:07:00 -
[434] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp.
You are confusing ship stats with piloting skill
More speed and projection is an automatic win in EVE with current mechanics with no skill involved.
|
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:10:00 -
[435] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.
Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:16:00 -
[436] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.
and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:18:00 -
[437] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile.
And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the point I was contending. Which, once again, was that gate tackle is now impossible because of the inability to use a long point.
That it changes open game dynamics is a different question. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:19:00 -
[438] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense. I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing.
The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:21:00 -
[439] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:22:00 -
[440] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP.
I hope you're not talking about a stab |
|
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:27:00 -
[441] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP. I hope you're not talking about a stab Suggest that a brawler fit a module that reduces his lock range and takes the place of a damage lowslot in order to escape a longpoint and that's a totally unreasonable tradeoff to ask them to make. Fozzie suggests that kiters have to get into scram range in order to secure kills and somehow that's legit.
Fitting is a game of tradeoffs, each module comes at a the cost of the others you didn't fit. However not all tradeoffs are good, some are bad and make the module totally worthless, the warp disruptor having (advantage, can point things without getting scrammed, disadvantage, can never get a kill, ever) is not a sensible tradeoff for the module. It's already got a tradeoff, they can still mwd. |
Kosetzu
S1lver Flame
111
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:27:00 -
[442] - Quote
Shorter range seems better imo, also no MMJD for Attack BCs I'd say.
Any chance of a nifty cooldown or activation reduction for the DST to make it shine a bit? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:31:00 -
[443] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:afkalt wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP. I hope you're not talking about a stab Suggest that a brawler fit a module that reduces his lock range and takes the place of a damage lowslot in order to escape a longpoint and that's a totally unreasonable tradeoff to ask them to make. Fozzie suggests that kiters have to get into scram range in order to secure kills and somehow that's legit. Fitting is a game of tradeoffs, each module comes at a the cost of the others you didn't fit. However not all tradeoffs are good, some are bad and make the module totally worthless, the warp disruptor having (advantage, can point things without getting scrammed, disadvantage, can never get a kill, ever) is not a sensible tradeoff for the module. It's already got a tradeoff, they can still mwd.
Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.
Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:32:00 -
[444] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. and what of the small gang/solo brawlers that get blobbed to **** by kitescum If you want a module that allows your brawling ship to escape a warp disruptor that actually already exists in the game, people typically don't fit them because they want to be able to be able to max out their dps/tank numbers in EFT without expecting any tradeoff or thinking about whether or not they can actually apply it in real PvP.
so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing |
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:33:00 -
[445] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense. I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing. The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem.
No, your whine is how your kiting backbone is "in danger" because you might miss some poor sod in a BC, using all kinds of hyperbole and dumb logic. Your "nonono, I'm in this for the good of the game" is very obvious.
|
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:37:00 -
[446] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense. I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing. The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem. No, your whine is how your kiting backbone is "in danger" because you might miss some poor sod in a BC, using all kinds of hyperbole and dumb logic. Your "nonono, I'm in this for the good of the game" is very obvious. Of course I'm posting because the game I play is changing for the worse. The game some f1 brawl monkey might be changing for the better if every fight is scrams on both ships and calling in his blob because then he won't die to the likes of me because I don't fly with a blob. For him everything being blob vs blob might be an improvement, he might be part of the biggest blob, for me it's certainly not because I don't care for that.
I'm not sure why you think identifying that I am trying to preserve my style of gameplay when it is under a very serious attack in any way discredits the issues with this module. I don't deny that I use warp disruptors, nor that I'd like to keep them relevant. My point is just that this change makes them far less relevant and I don't think that is a good direction. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1208
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:38:00 -
[447] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing
My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:43:00 -
[448] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.
Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.
I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1208
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:43:00 -
[449] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:afkalt wrote:
Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.
Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.
I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range.
A brawler can brawl with multiple stabs, there are pvp videos involving dual stabbed vexors and such. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9979
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:47:00 -
[450] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:bcs don't need MJDs. fixed Well considering I've also been saying that... "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
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Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:49:00 -
[451] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:bcs don't need MJDs. fixed Well considering I've also been saying that... <3 |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:50:00 -
[452] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing
My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting.
and bad enemies |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1208
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:51:00 -
[453] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing
My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting. and bad enemies
All pvp is based on either being better than, or more numerous than your enemies. |
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:57:00 -
[454] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:You're not getting this. Right now 2 guys with cruisers and a lot of pilot skill can fight a half dozen larger ships as long as they are good at mitigating damage. I'm not saying the cruisers longpoint and call in help, I'm saying they longpoint and then kill them because where the larger ships opted for more tank and more dps the cruisers picked less dps, less tank, more speed and more projection. They picked fits which had significant tradeoffs but were rewarding if they had piloting skill and as such were able to win in spots where they shouldn't due to exploiting that piloting skill.
If warp disruptors don't lock down ships then you are forced to scram and brawl to get a kill and if you are forced to brawl then you are forced to just have more dudes in bigger ships. Right now you are not, fewer dudes can beat more dudes with piloting skill. It's not an issue of "well you can still lock them down while your blob gets there". We don't all have blobs.
It not only destroys the warp disruptor as a module but also any kind of agility/piloting skill based pvp because you can't guarantee a kill without being in their scram range. It's a huge, huge attack on a very popular style of pvp. People who try and win through manually piloting will not be able to attack half the things they currently can if they have to lock horns with a f1 brawl monkey in a brick scram ship to get a kill. It destroys their engagement profile. Give all cruisers a massive speed boost and overall buff and no one cares, nerf BC speed and give them a option to be able to deal with kiters and suddenly everyone goes crazy. Like you, with your hyperbole hilarious nonsense. I absolutely agree that bcs are in a terrible place compared to cruisers right now, cruisers are ridiculously quicker than they were and generally have projection/application bonuses which the bcs lack. I just don't see how giving bcs the ability to escape from infinite longpoints if you refuse to brawl them is a solution to their problems. It's a much bigger issue of ship stats and bonuses and a gimmick that makes them unkillable except through brawling solves absolutely nothing. The power creep infecting eve has made cruisers incredibly dumb and if they were toned down or bcs moved up in line with them that'd be awesome. I don't think cruisers are in a good place right now, their dps is only slightly lower than bcs, they have better bonuses and they have way better base stats. But MMJDs are not the answer to any part of that problem. No, your whine is how your kiting backbone is "in danger" because you might miss some poor sod in a BC, using all kinds of hyperbole and dumb logic. Your "nonono, I'm in this for the good of the game" is very obvious. Of course I'm posting because the game I play is changing for the worse. The game some f1 brawl monkey might be changing for the better if every fight is scrams on both ships and calling in his blob because then he won't die to the likes of me because I don't fly with a blob. For him everything being blob vs blob might be an improvement, he might be part of the biggest blob, for me it's certainly not because I don't care for that. I'm not sure why you think identifying that I am trying to preserve my style of gameplay when it is under a very serious attack in any way discredits the issues with this module. I don't deny that I use warp disruptors, nor that I'd like to keep them relevant. My point is just that this change makes them far less relevant and I don't think that is a good direction.
Jezus ******* Christ, how much hyperbole can one possible cram in one's posts. ONE ship type (that's currently not at all used too much because it's too slow, and has been nerfed while other ship types got buffed) gets MJD and suddenly all doom and gloom. Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less.
Do you REALLY think that suddenly the skies will be full of MJD BCs, LOLing all over the place? They're STILL slow to warp, they're STILL too slow to catch anything. MJD is a defensive buff and a "come and fight me" module.
p.s. just because you found the orbit and keep at range buttons doesn't mean you're somehow more intelligent than others, your posting isn't helping either. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 11:57:00 -
[455] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
so kind of like when kiting ships fill up on speed mods so they can engage without ever actually committing
My current kiting ship is a plated deimos. Yesterday I fought a gang of arazu, loki, scimitar, 2 sabres, stabber, stiletto, nidhoggur, thanatos. I drew the stabber out from rep range and killed it. You dont need speed mods to skirmish, just good piloting. and bad enemies All pvp is based on either being better than, or more numerous than your enemies. Fozzie'd that for you. Enjoy your new emergent gameplay. |
Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy The Obsidian Front
96
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:00:00 -
[456] - Quote
I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. Welcome to our universe where cooldown timers are a mystery, the PLEX menu is just an advertisement, shrapnel bombs deal explosive force, concussion bombs are somehow kinetically penetrative, and who left all these prototype Inferno modules all over the place? |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:01:00 -
[457] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, because a) I don't fly gangs, I predominantly solo and b) scramming things in my kiting solo is somewhat problematic
I honestly don't think you're understanding the issue here. You're identifying it when you post things like "have to bring scrams" but then you're not somehow putting the word scram with the word kiting and working out why people like myself think this isn't a good development. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:02:00 -
[458] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:afkalt wrote:
Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.
Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.
I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range.
So let's say for the sakes of argument it is reasonable - what is the effective difference between that, and a MMJD for the solo pilot? It's still a fitting trade, it's not a guaranteed escape.
For small gang work - dedicate someone quick to carry a scram. Remember You don't NEED to fight in scram range all the time, so long as you can get there for the spool up time. The animation is a massive tell. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:05:00 -
[459] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:afkalt wrote:
Holy crap I wasn't serious. A STAB? Ho ho ho.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that there is no trade for a MMJD - they need to be fitted SOMEWHERE, they have steepish fitting requirements. There are trade offs.
Ho ho, stab. Still chuckling on that one.
I still contend that asking a brawler to fit a warp core stab to survive being kited is 10x more reasonable than asking a kiter to fit a scram to get a kill. A brawler can still brawl with a single stab, a kiter cannot kite in scram range. So let's say for the sakes of argument it is reasonable - what is the effective difference between that, and a MMJD for the solo pilot? It's still a fitting trade, it's not a guaranteed escape. For small gang work - dedicate someone quick to carry a scram. Remember You don't NEED to fight in scram range all the time, so long as you can get there for the spool up time. The animation is a massive tell.
yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
282
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:06:00 -
[460] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive!
This module will begin restricted to Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Deep Space Transports. We will consider expanding it to some other classes in the future but that is a discussion for after we've seen how they work out on these initial groups.
The MMJD uses the same Micro Jump Drive Operation skill as the LMJD and has the same range (100km), spool up (12s base reduced by the skill) and cooldown (3 minutes) as the Large version.
It has the following requirements: Powergrid: 165 CPU: 51 Capacitor: 197
We expect that these modules will be a very exciting option for battlecruisers (especially attack battlecruisers) in both fleets and small gangs.
Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
These modules will be on SISI for your testing pleasure soon. Let us know what you think!
Why don't you just make every ship interdiction nullifed already? Don't Panic.
|
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:06:00 -
[461] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:
yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently
You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1372
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:07:00 -
[462] - Quote
Johann Rascali wrote:I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it.
issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3.
That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
811
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:12:00 -
[463] - Quote
i do agree with the people saying bc's don't need this mod .... i think they are generally in a good place the reduced usage is a good thing Fozzie... more diversity is what we like ...that being said part of the problem in the combat bc area is that a lot of the ships are too samey... ABC's inhibit there potential somewhat and force them into being brawlers only..
make ABC's T2 - they are specialist ships and should be treated as such..
then 1/2 of the CBC's could be moved to attack bc's - this would open up options for more variety and mobility..
New Attack bc's drake - drop resist,less tank for missile velocity, buff mobility .. kind of like the navy version really.. Hurricane - more mobility, less tank Harbinger - more mobility, less tank Brutix - more mobility, less tank, maybe switch rep bonus for falloff bonus. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:18:00 -
[464] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, because a) I don't fly gangs, I predominantly solo and b) scramming things in my kiting solo is somewhat problematic I honestly don't think you're understanding the issue here. You're identifying it when you post things like "have to bring scrams" but then you're not somehow putting the word scram with the word kiting and working out why people like myself think this isn't a good development.
I understand it just fine, you're using one strategy which makes you feel superior (which isn't that difficult given the average quality of players, don't kid yourself) and now you're scared shitless about how you might not be able to kill a BC you ran in to, because he might actually get away from you (gasp). And this is of course not allowed, your superior strategy (...) should always hold the advantage and nothing is allowed to get away from it and anything that tries to anyway is dumb and F1 pushing.
To frantically try and prevent this change from happening you start to make hilarious hyperbole strawman posts (which don't make you look that intelligent, just saying) because you feel threatened by this disturbing change.
Did I miss anything? |
Kane Fenris
NWP
150
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:19:00 -
[465] - Quote
Attackbcs already killed most uses of combat bcs now they get a buff again? bs got an edge over attack bcs when they got mjds and now lost tbis edge? wtf is wrong with you at ccp you bring a op ship in the game that steps o toes of two other ship classes. then you struggle to fix it and when its nearly fi ed you break it again fully as aware of what your doing?
cant belive it |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:22:00 -
[466] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: Again, you're just whining that you might actually have to bring scrams with your kiting gangs, nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, because a) I don't fly gangs, I predominantly solo and b) scramming things in my kiting solo is somewhat problematic I honestly don't think you're understanding the issue here. You're identifying it when you post things like "have to bring scrams" but then you're not somehow putting the word scram with the word kiting and working out why people like myself think this isn't a good development. I understand it just fine, you're using one strategy which makes you feel superior (which isn't that difficult given the average quality of players, don't kid yourself) and now you're scared shitless about how you might not be able to kill a BC you ran in to, because he might actually get away from you (gasp). And this is of course not allowed, your superior strategy (...) should always hold the advantage and nothing is allowed to get away from it and anything that tries to anyway is dumb and F1 pushing. To frantically try and prevent this change from happening you start to make hilarious hyperbole strawman posts (which don't make you look that intelligent, just saying) because you feel threatened by this disturbing change. Did I miss anything? The point?
Fortunately for you the point is no longer going to be important. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:24:00 -
[467] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently
You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die?
I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:24:00 -
[468] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3. That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3.
I posted that a caracal before that can do it no problems and would almost certainly survive long enough for the slower ships to get into range.
35k EHP, 2117 m/s
Sure, it won't kill it alone, but it's there for tackle. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:26:00 -
[469] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently
You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp.
In what way does an arty firetail or beam executioner have a brawling mode? |
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:26:00 -
[470] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:Fortunately for you the point is no longer going to be important.
it's fine, just not for the few drakes you might run in to. THE HORROR!
See, you're talking about how superior you and your strategy are but what you're actually saying is "I'm really good at running away, look at how awesome I am at running away!" and then when ONE ship type (that's hardly used in the current meta, which won't change because of this module) gets an option to run away from your "run away" strategy you start yapping about how unfair it is.
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU. |
|
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:30:00 -
[471] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently
You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp. Certainly there are some rock paper scissors engagements in which the kiter knows ahead of time that he'll win but that is the same with any ship type. The brawler on station at zero will only aggress on the kiter if he's already in scram range, otherwise he'll redock etc. But that doesn't making kiting inherently riskless, the classic example used to be pointing a bs with heavy neuts in bcs and cruisers with 24-28k point range. If you were bored and ambitious you'd absolutely try it but whether or not you could achieve it comes entirely down to the skill of the pilots involved. Last night I tried isolating smaller ships when they had a webbing loki on the field, had he been more on the ball or I been less attentive I'd have died.
Kiting gives you a wider engagement profile as a solo pilot, a small part of which is a rock paper scissors win, and a much larger part of which is dependent the skills of the pilots involved. This is a narrowing of that engagement profile and in order to restore it I would have to change my playstyle to include a gang of people and brawling, something I am not exactly eager to do and something which I believe will increase the degree to which whether or not I win or lose is entirely independent of pilot skill. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:30:00 -
[472] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! |
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:30:00 -
[473] - Quote
As a sidenote; the more I see people whine about this horrendous change the more I feel Fozzie was actually right; it IS the solution for BCs. the whining is glorious. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:31:00 -
[474] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Michael Harari wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:
yeah but then that person would actually be at risk of dying, which isn't fair apparently
You personally lose kiting ships all the time, why do you think kiting ships dont die? I think my 'kiting' ships have all died in brawler mode recently. to your question, because typically they're taking win or draw engagements. I see a similarity between flying a kiting ship with its inherently laughable damage and tank, and flying a lol brawling CBC and gimping yourself to get a MJD on, to get a (less reliable) gtfo ability for use in honourable pvp. In what way does an arty firetail or beam executioner have a brawling mode?
huh, I thought you were talking about tackle atrons. the beam executioners were comedy versions of comedy atrons, which are not conventional kiting ships, because they're slow as ****. it's in a completely different spot on the frigate honour rock/paper/scissors thing. and regarding scram kiting firetails, I kind of classify that as brawling. |
Gregor Parud
505
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:33:00 -
[475] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner!
Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place.
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:34:00 -
[476] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place.
As I already said, my current kiting ship has a plate and no nanos. And apart from some travel fit interceptors, its the only fit ship I have for 50 jumps. |
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:38:00 -
[477] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place. As I already said, my current kiting ship has a plate and no nanos.
I see you're starting to nit pick, generally not a good sign. My statement stands, fights are won or lost before the fight even happens. That's why you fly and fit as you do. Now whining about how someone else's fitting choice might cramp your style is hilarious.
|
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
205
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:39:00 -
[478] - Quote
Anyone out there aside from me dislike how powerful attack battlecruisers are? I am not saying they are OP, but a minor damage nerf would be nice IMO. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:40:00 -
[479] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place. As I already said, my current kiting ship has a plate and no nanos. I see you're starting to nit pick, generally not a good sign. My statement stands, fights are won or lost before the fight even happens. That's why you fly and fit as you do. Now whining about how someone else's fitting choice might cramp your style is hilarious.
Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
699
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:40:00 -
[480] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:Anyone out there aside from me dislike how powerful attack battlecruisers are? I am not saying they are OP, but a minor damage nerf would be nice IMO.
they are OP. everyone who isn't awful wants them removed. |
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1372
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:41:00 -
[481] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3. That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3. I posted that a caracal before that can do it no problems and would almost certainly survive long enough for the slower ships to get into range. 35k EHP, 2117 m/s Sure, it won't kill it alone, but it's there for tackle.
So you realize that a player witha BRAIN will click align to a place, overheat MWD while the MDJ spolls up? Movign basically as fast as your caracal? And that means your caracal will take more time to get within 9 km?
Stop witht he spreadsheet thinking. Battleships were easier to catch, but BC will be nearly impossible at a regional gate when you are alone and quite hard if you are unlucky at the gate jump positioning. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:41:00 -
[482] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place. This would only work if your target selection was limited to ships that were slower than you, had less cap and couldn't project outside of 20km. Every ship can win through RPS but that doesn't mean that pilot skill doesn't matter and that changes which reduce the importance of pilot skill and increase the RPS nature of the game are good. Pilot skill rather than the fit are the determining factor in 99% of my engagements, whether I win or lose. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:41:00 -
[483] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:Anyone out there aside from me dislike how powerful attack battlecruisers are? I am not saying they are OP, but a minor damage nerf would be nice IMO.
They are decently strong, but frustrating to roam in because of the reduced warp speed, and they are extremely vulnerable to the interceptor meta. |
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:43:00 -
[484] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
You want to catch a BC? Go grab it. If you didn't fit for grabbing that BC you won't get it. Rock, paper, scissors. HTFU.
Eve would be such an awesome game if everything was decided at the fitting window. This way you wouldnt even need to actually undock, you could just have a fitting tool compare fits and declare a winner! Is it actually, you fit a long point with nanofibers and MWD which ensures you won't die to slower targets while also fitting for projected dps at 20+ km. This is a choice you make in the fitting window, that's why you use kiting ships in the first place. This would only work if your target selection was limited to ships that were slower than you, had less cap and couldn't project outside of 20km. Every ship can win through RPS but that doesn't mean that pilot skill doesn't matter and that changes which reduce the importance of pilot skill and increase the RPS nature of the game are good. Pilot skill rather than the fit are the determining factor in 99% of my engagements, whether I win or lose.
Ok, shall we check how many non-kiting ships you've used lately, since it's not about fit at all?
|
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:46:00 -
[485] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:[Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people
And now you're starting to change the subject, which generally is another bad sign of realising you're losing the argument. "who has the most people" has nothing to do with the MMJD, at all. In fact it's the other way round; it allows a BC to get away from a horde of [insert kiting ships but probably crows], surely you'd enjoy other ships than just yours being able to get away from trouble they don't want to handle?
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:48:00 -
[486] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:[Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people And now you're starting to change the subject, which generally is another bad sign of realising you're losing the argument. "who has the most people" has nothing to do with the MMJD, at all. In fact it's the other way round; it allows a BC to get away from a horde of [insert kiting ships but probably crows], surely you'd enjoy other ships than just yours being able to get away from trouble they don't want to handle?
Last 3 interceptor gangs I fought all had scrams. A bc isnt getting away from them. Its also not killing them since the gangs had a sentinel and another 5 or 6 tds.
|
ZecsMarquis
Destroyer's Inc.
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:50:00 -
[487] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Back on topic.
This will allow it to be tackled by multiple long points, or a faction long point, or a scripted HIC (credit to badboymark)
*Edited to update suggestions.
Pretty sure I introduced the idea first. Thanks for reading my post.
|
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:50:00 -
[488] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:[Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people And now you're starting to change the subject, which generally is another bad sign of realising you're losing the argument. "who has the most people" has nothing to do with the MMJD, at all. In fact it's the other way round; it allows a BC to get away from a horde of [insert kiting ships but probably crows], surely you'd enjoy other ships than just yours being able to get away from trouble they don't want to handle? Last 3 interceptor gangs I fought all had scrams. A bc isnt getting away from them. Its also not killing them since the gangs had a sentinel and another 5 or 6 tds.
you're again evading the main point, good.
Also, nothing will change in that scenario other than said BC gimping himself even more due to wasting a mid slot and fitting. I fail to see the problem?
|
Faltzs
Thundercats The Initiative.
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:53:00 -
[489] - Quote
The one of the main reason alot of 0.0 alliance stopped using battlecruisers in fleets is becuase of bombs particulary agaisnt the Attack Battlecrsuiers. How about addressing bombs before adding a new module. (yes mjd bc would help but it opens up more room for sillyness rather than game balance).
But if they probably going ot be in game anyway, the cool down should be greater than that of larger version, 5-6mins atleast. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1209
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:53:00 -
[490] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:[Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people And now you're starting to change the subject, which generally is another bad sign of realising you're losing the argument. "who has the most people" has nothing to do with the MMJD, at all. In fact it's the other way round; it allows a BC to get away from a horde of [insert kiting ships but probably crows], surely you'd enjoy other ships than just yours being able to get away from trouble they don't want to handle? Last 3 interceptor gangs I fought all had scrams. A bc isnt getting away from them. Its also not killing them since the gangs had a sentinel and another 5 or 6 tds. you're again evading the main point, good. Also, nothing will change in that scenario other than said BC gimping himself even more due to wasting a mid slot and fitting. I fail to see the problem?
You are right, in that one scenario of a battlecruiser jumping into an inty swarm, this will not save him. Neither will stabs, ecm, or anything else.
You seem to be confused. I suggest reading the arguments being made against the module, instead of making up your own.
I have some errands to run, so while I am gone, you shoud read through the thread so you can stop constructing straw men. |
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
699
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:54:00 -
[491] - Quote
Faltzs wrote:The one of the main reason alot of 0.0 alliance stopped using battlecruisers in fleets is becuase of bombs particulary agaisnt the Attack Battlecrsuiers. How about addressing bombs before adding a new module. (yes mjd bc would help but it opens up more room for sillyness rather than game balance).
But if they probably going ot be in game anyway, the cool down should be greater than that of larger version, 5-6mins atleast.
does anyone sensible actually think there's anything wrong with bombs, other than the fact that it's mostly risk-free for the bombers? |
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 12:56:00 -
[492] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Michael Harari wrote:[Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people And now you're starting to change the subject, which generally is another bad sign of realising you're losing the argument. "who has the most people" has nothing to do with the MMJD, at all. In fact it's the other way round; it allows a BC to get away from a horde of [insert kiting ships but probably crows], surely you'd enjoy other ships than just yours being able to get away from trouble they don't want to handle? Last 3 interceptor gangs I fought all had scrams. A bc isnt getting away from them. Its also not killing them since the gangs had a sentinel and another 5 or 6 tds. you're again evading the main point, good. Also, nothing will change in that scenario other than said BC gimping himself even more due to wasting a mid slot and fitting. I fail to see the problem? You are right, in that one scenario of a battlecruiser jumping into an inty swarm, this will not save him. Neither will stabs, ecm, or anything else. You seem to be confused. I suggest reading the arguments being made against the module, instead of making up your own. I have some errands to run, so while I am gone, you shoud read through the thread so you can stop constructing straw men.
When you find some factual and reasonable arguments feel free to point them out to me. So far all I see is "waaah, my kiting back bone, I might lose a BC kill".
|
ZecsMarquis
Destroyer's Inc.
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:03:00 -
[493] - Quote
Osant wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie, what about counter-measures? AFAIK when MJD (large version) was just introduced CCP had an idea to deal with it using Mobile MJD Disruptors. But currently we have only one thing - Warp Scrambler and this is not enough ofc. So my proposal as counter-measures (just a list of different variations):
- New mobile structure - Mobile MJD Disruptor (one size, T1/T2/Faction, radius as Large Mobile Warp Disruptor, affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump, also can't be anchored in activation range of Mobile Microjump structure)
- New probe for Interdiction Sphere Launcher - *%name%* Disrupt Probe (radius/volume as Warp Disrupt Probe, affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump)
- New script for Heavy Interdictors - Focused *%name%* Disruption (and again affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump)
I already proposed every single one of these ideas. Thanks for the +1 |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:25:00 -
[494] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3. That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3. I posted that a caracal before that can do it no problems and would almost certainly survive long enough for the slower ships to get into range. 35k EHP, 2117 m/s Sure, it won't kill it alone, but it's there for tackle. So you realize that a player witha BRAIN will click align to a place, overheat MWD while the MDJ spolls up? Movign basically as fast as your caracal? And that means your caracal will take more time to get within 9 km? Stop witht he spreadsheet thinking. Battleships were easier to catch, but BC will be nearly impossible at a regional gate when you are alone and quite hard if you are unlucky at the gate jump positioning.
So now they have the MWD and the MJD and are almost as fast as a cruiser? Just how many slots do you think these BCs have? A HAM drake is what, 1000m/s (lil' more with swapping a BCU for nano) before heat? So the caracal is twice as fast. You'd have to be REALLY unlucky to not catch it.
Also, that was a versatile caracal, if you REALLY have OCD about a BC never escaping, buy something faster and dedicate it to the role, they'll never escape.
Oh, wait. You're still narked about being alone and at a specific gate type
I suggest you stop with the "in this specific set of contrived circumstance, they will escape" e.g. alone, in a slow cruiser at a giant gate then maybe the prey slips past. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2141
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:28:00 -
[495] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it. issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3. That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3. I posted that a caracal before that can do it no problems and would almost certainly survive long enough for the slower ships to get into range. 35k EHP, 2117 m/s Sure, it won't kill it alone, but it's there for tackle. So you realize that a player witha BRAIN will click align to a place, overheat MWD while the MDJ spolls up? Movign basically as fast as your caracal? And that means your caracal will take more time to get within 9 km? Stop witht he spreadsheet thinking. Battleships were easier to catch, but BC will be nearly impossible at a regional gate when you are alone and quite hard if you are unlucky at the gate jump positioning. So now they have the MWD and the MJD and are almost as fast as a cruiser? Just how many slots do you think these BCs have? A HAM drake is what, 1000m/s before heat? So the caracal is twice as fast. You'd have to be REALLY unlucky to not catch it. Also, that was a versatile caracal, if you REALLY have OCD about a BC never escaping, buy something faster and dedicate it to the role, they'll never escape. Oh, wait. You're still narked about being alone and at a specific gate type I suggest you stop with the "in this specific set of contrived circumstance, they will escape" e.g. alone, in a slow cruiser at a giant gate then maybe the prey slips past.
That Caracal will die though.
Not that i give a **** about how easy it is to gatecamp. I'm more concerned with twats in uncatchable arty nado's BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:32:00 -
[496] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:That Caracal will die though.
Not that i give a **** about how easy it is to gatecamp. I'm more concerned with twats in uncatchable arty nado's
Perhaps, perhaps not. Too many variables to be certain.
No arguments from me about the ABCs being a serious question mark here. Generic BC/cmd ships I'm largely ok with to try out. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
65
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:37:00 -
[497] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: ...
When you find some factual and reasonable arguments feel free to point them out to me. So far all I see is "waaah, my kiting back bone, I might lose a BC kill".
Fact: Single point wont work. Fact: Scram is essential. Fact: Playing the brawling game only from now on. Fact: Kiting disappears, whats the point of a single point, a scram is a guarantee? Fact: Targets you locate in gated/beaconed anoms will be 100k off .. its now expected with a BS, 48 ships now in total.
Likely: The total end of Minmatar. Speed and kiting was their forte. Brawling with crap tanks aint fun. Likely: Tanky closein blaster fits FTW. Likely: Lasers are pointless. Cant track for anything upclose. Keeping range is losing your target. Likely: The brawler Proteus with longer scram and rails will take off, it has already. Likely: Prices of faction/deadspace scrams will rise dramatically (its happening now). Faction long points down the pan.
Sadly, if you are too dumb to think these up - took me 2 minutes - then try interpreting the spew of vitriol from some as a legitimate issue of bewilderment.
Its a 'run away run away' for nullsec bears who dont like getting bombed. Dare I say CFC FTW.
As stated. One of the worst ideas I have seen in eve. |
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:38:00 -
[498] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I'm more concerned with twats in uncatchable arty nado's I highly doubt ABC will get the MMJD
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2141
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:42:00 -
[499] - Quote
Well i also rather dislike essentially making BC's immune to long points.. I don't really see the value in that. The game doesn't really need more ways you can be a risk adverse ****. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
243
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:50:00 -
[500] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd. +1 It is doubly true since fast tackle - inties, frigates - don't mix well with gate guns. Because of that, there is effectively no counter to this module that works in lowsec. absolutely - lowsec just got boosted with the changes to gate guns and now its taking a major step backwards with small grps and solos really taking a hard shot to the nuts. Why because you can no longer perma-tackle with your insert long point, snaked, and/or boosted insert annoying frig here against a brawler? Shame on you. No one is stopping you from committing to a fight like a brawler has to. Now the brawler has the same ability to disengage from the kiter when he knows he can't catch him. EDIT: p.s. Bring a scram and all of your problems are solved. It's not like every ship in game minus a BS is faster than a BC or CS....
Last I checked, frigs get blapped off gates from the gate guns. Given the size of many gates, you basically just not going to get tackle without specialized ships and bringing all the necessary ships plus dps, is just not reasonable to ask of solo/small grrps. As far as the issue of brawlers v. kiters - so now kiters have to get within scram range- which means they are in web range - which means brawlers are op? If the fight is outside of scram range - every bc that is smart enough to fit the mjd gets away everytime the minute the fight turns on them unless they are alpha'ed off the field? How is this smart/balanced? I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
|
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 13:51:00 -
[501] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well i also rather dislike essentially making BC's immune to long points.. I don't really see the value in that. The game doesn't really need more ways you can be a risk adverse ****.
Look at it this way; it's a counter to risk averse kiters and gives BC a mobility buff without giving them a general mobility buff because that's what made them OP. If they would give CBC 250m/s more MWD speed it would get silly again, getting in the way of cruisers. With this change CBC still won't be able to catch stuff (and then overpower them), but they can play to their slower, more bulky, strengths; forcing ppl into a brawl if they want to catch it. Because it's so specialised and BC still having mobility issues (amongst other things) I doubt it'll ever become a meta and all you'll see is solo or small gang BC going brawl.
This is all assuming ABC won't get them, if that makes it through the CSM and Fozzie himself I'd be highly disappointed in both.
And then there's the other thing I doubt people have thought about... When gang links change to grid only it gives the booster ships a bit of a breather, so this change is a clear indication grid only links are upon us. But lets keep that quiet for now, wouldn't want to mess up the character bazaar too much hehe. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
451
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:02:00 -
[502] - Quote
Why is it so hard for these gate campers to set up on grid bookmarks to pre warp to to get them close to the place the BC will land before it jumps.
Personally; I would setup BM's 200km above, below, front back and sides. I would then warp to the one I thought would be closest when I see them spool up the MJD. I would also have bubbles setup at 100km range from the gate in the celestial align points to catch them trying to MJD-Warp. This way I should always catch them. Then I have a whole 3 minutes to kill/call fro reinforcements whilst pointing them from long point range.
Or does this sound like too much effort?
you know... Proper Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents **** Poor Performance |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:04:00 -
[503] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well i also rather dislike essentially making BC's immune to long points.. I don't really see the value in that. The game doesn't really need more ways you can be a risk adverse ****.
Well, they are giving up things to fit it.
I wonder....if the module was visible on the ship in space...you'd know what you were dealing with and could act accordingly.
That said I quite like the idea of people assuming a BC is brawler fit and trying to close not knowing if they really are |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10240
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:33:00 -
[504] - Quote
Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
243
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:37:00 -
[505] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this? I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Gregor Parud
506
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:39:00 -
[506] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
:)
|
Iam Widdershins
Tempest Legion
857
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:43:00 -
[507] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. That (and the deepspace transports) seemed like the only legitimate usage of the modules. Combat battlecruisers can't even really reach out and touch past 100km without great difficulty; the only use would be to provide a very strong immunity to tackle and intervention for PVE battlecruisers, just another step towards a perfect PVE world where nobody has to interact with anybody else if they don't want to.
I strongly urge you to reconsider the module entirely, perhaps restricting it to deepspace transports alone if not putting off the whole idea. MJD is a cool mechanic, it's new and interesting, and it's not necessarily good in proliferation.
Need I also mention the promised mitigating mechanics, anti-jump bubbles, were never implemented. Maybe if interdictor bubbles and scripts were provided that could put up anti-MJD bubbles in any space this would be OK, but if you do that why even have the module in the first place? Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
811
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:47:00 -
[508] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
any thoughts on my ABC to T2 .. and make half of the CBC's into ABC's? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
451
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:47:00 -
[509] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this?
I think that dictors (not HIC's) should be able to fit a "special" 24km warp disruptor that shuts off MJD's (and maybe MWD's) which would give these ships some use outside of bubbling and null sec
I mean.... if people are developing this technology it would stand to reason that people would be developing a countermeasure |
Gregor Parud
507
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:53:00 -
[510] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this? I think that dictors (not HIC's) should be able to fit a "special" 24km warp disruptor that shuts off MJD's (and maybe MWD's) which would give these ships some use outside of bubbling and null sec I mean.... if people are developing this technology it would stand to reason that people would be developing a countermeasure
There's no need for that, the MJD is the counter to a problem, introducing a counter to a problem's counter would be... counter productive YEEAAAH!
|
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Jessica Danikov
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
338
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 14:59:00 -
[511] - Quote
Will someone please think of the Logi?
All these jump drives and T2 Logi cruisers are burning everywhere just to keep up- painful with MWDs, nigh impossible with ABs. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
381
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:01:00 -
[512] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
Wow thats a very specific modul now! Why not make Large Micro Jump Drive only available to Marauders and Combat Battleships aswell? Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:03:00 -
[513] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
Well that's half a step.
Can you at least confirm that you've read the posts about long points and fast tackle? That's the most important issue, and even if no decision is made yet, I want to know that you're aware of it. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:04:00 -
[514] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:
There's no need for that, the MJD is the counter to a problem, introducing a counter to a problem's counter would be... counter productive YEEAAAH!
oh you. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:23:00 -
[515] - Quote
How about what would MJD interdiction from bubble, faction warpdis, HD beam/sphere, warpdis from interceptor?
And most importantly, it`s give role for interceptors. Warpdis from interceptor interdiction MJD. With the introduction of MMJD meaning Interceptors much lost, and other tacklers too...
If good, then you need to leave MMJD only on fleetcom Command and Transport. You want to solve the problem Combat BC? Allowing him to just run away from the battle, you do not decide, the problem is that BC same slow as BS, but they do not have the range of the weapon. Their only role in tank-close, for everything else perfectly suited Attack BC, they will be overkill with MMJD.
You form botch on botch, so you do not decide only spoil the old, mangled new firewood |
Randolph Sykes
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:33:00 -
[516] - Quote
I hope you are still gathering feedback, Fozzie.
So you've confirmed that this new module is an attempt to make combat BCs more viable. The problem is: 100 km jump range and 12 s activation time are fine for battleships, but with CBC we need a different approach.
The main problem with CBCs is that most of them are pure brawlers that lack speed. They don't need a way to run away from kiters. They need something to be able to catch and kill kiters.
What you want to do with MJD for CBC is to drastically reduce its range and base spool up time. I suggest 20 km and 4 s. It allows a CBC pilot to run away from a kiter (but that's still not a 100% trump card - the kiter can react quickly and has some time to position his ship to keep his warp disruptor on the battlecruiser he engages, the kiter can also utilize his warp speed advantage since he is most likely flying a cruiser). It allows to catch a kiter by jumping close to him. It gives a tiny chance to escape bombs.
With this numbers MMJD is not a "i want to leave"-type module. It's something that makes pvp with combat BCs more fun for both sides. It's brain and tactics, you know.
Mechanics and numbers can differ, but the gist is: combat battlecruisers need a short jump range, not the one battleships enjoy. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
123
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:35:00 -
[517] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
Good stuff!
Now if you could make the range 50km, MMJD could be considered a tactical combat tool instead of evasion tool.
I'd love to fly old school brawling CBCs like Myrm and Brutix more in solo and small gang, but a GTFO button does not encourage me that. I'd prefer a repositioning tool that would allow me to utilize the strengths of a CBC, and not just slowboat futilely until I die. |
Annedalda Dixenme
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:40:00 -
[518] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. That (and the deepspace transports) seemed like the only legitimate usage of the modules. Combat battlecruisers can't even really reach out and touch past 100km without great difficulty; the only use would be to provide a very strong immunity to tackle and intervention for PVE battlecruisers, just another step towards a perfect PVE world where nobody has to interact with anybody else if they don't want to. I strongly urge you to reconsider the module entirely, perhaps restricting it to deepspace transports alone if not putting off the whole idea. MJD is a cool mechanic, it's new and interesting, and it's not necessarily good in proliferation. Need I also mention the promised mitigating mechanics, anti-jump bubbles, were never implemented. Maybe if interdictor bubbles and scripts were provided that could put up anti-MJD bubbles in any space this would be OK, but if you do that why even have the module in the first place?
The act of fitting and using the MMJD to escape is itself an interaction with the PVP player. The notion that the only true interaction a PVE player would have is to die to the PVP fit ship is ridiculous. The counter to a MJD exists, I'll give you a hint: it's the same counter to the MWD.
In low and null the odds are against PVE players already. I like to hunt them. I like to kill them. I do not support having everything possible stacked against them. I don't need my PVP to be dumbed down for me.
If we're all good boys and girls we might even see these on some PVP ships. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
633
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:41:00 -
[519] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. Nooooooo....my talos.... |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
185
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:42:00 -
[520] - Quote
MJD was the module giving battleships back some edge against battlecruisers and T2 cruisers and one could actually encouter battleships on roams again. why ruin it and introduce it in smaller ships?
isn't the deployable MJD enough? if it really, really, really needs to happen, make it a thing of DSTs.
|
|
ZecsMarquis
Destroyer's Inc.
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 15:59:00 -
[521] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this?
+1 |
ZecsMarquis
Destroyer's Inc.
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 16:00:00 -
[522] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this? I think that dictors (not HIC's) should be able to fit a "special" 24km warp disruptor that shuts off MJD's (and maybe MWD's) which would give these ships some use outside of bubbling and null sec I mean.... if people are developing this technology it would stand to reason that people would be developing a countermeasure
+1 |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
414
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 16:09:00 -
[523] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this?
This. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Mike Whiite
Space Mutts The Harlequin's
353
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 16:18:00 -
[524] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
Thank you very much
|
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
282
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 16:34:00 -
[525] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It seems like you're just releasing stuff because you think it'll be fun to play with, not because it'll actually be balanced and beneficial to the game.
This.
Don't Panic.
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1695
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 16:56:00 -
[526] - Quote
I'm not sure that copying and pasting the jump range, spool up time, and cool down time from the BS module is appropriate given the much more limited range of CBC. |
Cyaron wars
VMF-214 Blacksheep
74
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 16:57:00 -
[527] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie,
Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP. We already have "blanket on your face" called Falcon and EC drones, utterly ******** tank modules like dual X-large ASB on ships so ppl can deagro and dock/jump through gate. With this kind of approach you are making nearly every kiting ship useless against BCs. Could you please tell me the outcome of engagement between Prophecy and NOMEN for example after MMJD will be introduced? Can you please define the role of Warp Disruptor in future? We already have anchorable device with similar functionality for people who want to MJD out in any other class then BS. While I understand the reason of fitting such module to field command ships, I don't see any reasonable argument why it must be present on other BCs.
Please do us all a favor and stop trying to re-invent the wheel. We already have it and it is working. Please focus all your efforts and precious time (that we all pay for) on something better then yet another module or ship (like there are few disposable ships in this game). |
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
1220
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:00:00 -
[528] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
RIP the dream of attack battlecruisers being useful for something other than sniping or AFK POS bashing. ~ |
Gregor Parud
507
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:08:00 -
[529] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP.
How is it anymore coward than kiting running links and killing pve fit newbies?
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
238
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:08:00 -
[530] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. Ah, that's a shame. Would not reducing the jump range to 75km help? It would be a big shame, and also make little sense to make an arbitrary exception for ABC's. |
|
Cyaron wars
VMF-214 Blacksheep
74
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:16:00 -
[531] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP. How is it anymore coward than kiting running links and killing pve fit newbies?
When I kite, I am facing a gang of 5-10 or even more guys. Normally a pilot that knows how to act in this case stays alive, those who make mistakes die to my guns. After those changes it'll be just "run away" tactics and nothing more. Also, stop whining about links. I did my share of solo BS roams in nullsec without even a scout alt, but times change. Average DPS of ships have increased, tanking left nearly same, number of people trying to ***** on your mail not just doubled but is increasing with geometric progression every day. So links became a slight advantage to those who still want to fly on their own and engage multiple targets. Try that one day and u will understand. |
Jin So
Sev3rance
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:17:00 -
[532] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.
I still fail to see how this mid is going to help small gang combat? |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:18:00 -
[533] - Quote
You can make the argument that ABC's are so specialised, being able to fit the large guns, there's no room inside the hull to integrate the MJD..
That said, I don't care the reason, I think it's great.. ABC's have a fairly big advantage, they don't need more.. Also this might open doors for some of the other lesser used CBC's. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10257
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:18:00 -
[534] - Quote
To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Rita Zechs
Large Rodent Hunters
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:37:00 -
[535] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.
No it's not if the bombing run is done with any level of competency (you can't get out in time if you don't get advance warning). Will you apply to RIOT and go ruin another game already?
|
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
205
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:41:00 -
[536] - Quote
OK, after reading some peoples thoughts, here is what i got:
Reduce the range to 50km Reduce Spooler timer and reactivation timer Allow them to be fit to Logi as well
Personal thoughts: Combat recons too? they need love but that re-balance will happen some other time. |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:41:00 -
[537] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there. See I like Fozzie.. cause we actually are getting some feedback from the devs in this thread, rather than the silence that has been going on for weeks/months in some of the other threads :( |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space BORG Alliance
73
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:44:00 -
[538] - Quote
As most BC weapons do not reach this far, wouldn't make a less bigger jump distance more sense on them? Like 50km? After all it is also a smaller version of the device.
I always saw the LMJD as a replacement tool, when drones started to suck this badly to kill elite frigs in missions. You would use a sniper fit, and jump out 100km, and kill everything as it runs towards you. So for me it always seemed like a fix for screwing up the drones aggro mechanics in the first place, and making most close range BS prone to scrambling frigs, what caused them to melt. As all drones were killed by them right away. More like "get into sniping position" - with most BS weapons being able to reach 100km, this is how it is often used.
So the smaller variant should be a bit like that? 50km, as most BC weapons can reach that far?
Overall i see no real use for a MMJD. Especially not with 100km range - maybe if it had 50km range. I guess you designed it mainly as a "get away card" for the DST. You could give the DST just a bonus so it can use the LMJD instead... |
Randolph Sykes
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:58:00 -
[539] - Quote
Those who are proposing 50 km range - how it makes it any different from 100 km? What can you achieve with this? 20 km is fine, 25 km is fine, 30 km is fine, 40+ km is not fine at all. |
Gregor Parud
508
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:09:00 -
[540] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there.
Just... don't. |
|
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:11:00 -
[541] - Quote
Randolph Sykes wrote:Those who are proposing 50 km range - how it makes it any different from 100 km? What can you achieve with this? 20 km is fine, 25 km is fine, 30 km is fine, 40+ km is not fine at all.
50km is the range of a sniper fit BC. I flew with a corp that did 50km bc fleets for a while, it worked extremely well. Aside from the whole all-fights-start-at-0km-on-a-gate thing, anyway. 50km jumps would be perfect for this fleet setup.
Also, 50km jumps give easy access to 25-50km jumps as well. By jumping at an angle to the target, instead of in a straight line, you can control the final range surprisingly well (yay Pythagoras). Try it on a BS in game. This means it would be useful to medium range fits and not just long range fits. For the same reason, 75km jumps would be a reasonable compromise as well.
100km is so far out of a BC combat range that it has no combat purpose. Escape is the only possible use for the module if the stats dont change.
note to CCP: Pay attention to the two bolded words. They are imporant. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
455
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:16:00 -
[542] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there. See I like Fozzie.. cause we actually are getting some feedback from the devs in this thread, rather than the silence that has been going on for weeks/months in some of the other threads :(
Unfortunately it's not feedback on the things that are actually being talked about, so it's only a small improvement. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9987
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:17:00 -
[543] - Quote
Elise Randolph wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.
We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. RIP the dream of attack battlecruisers being useful for something other than sniping or AFK POS bashing. Oh please. MMJD on ABCs would have been ridiculously overpowered. Don't even pretend to believe otherwise. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9987
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:18:00 -
[544] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:You can make the argument that ABC's are so specialised, being able to fit the large guns, there's no room inside the hull to integrate the MJD.. Yeah whatever, lore reasons you can leave up to the janitor to write five minutes before the final revision is committed. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Neoxan
WALLTREIPERS The Initiative.
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:26:00 -
[545] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there. See I like Fozzie.. cause we actually are getting some feedback from the devs in this thread, rather than the silence that has been going on for weeks/months in some of the other threads :(
Totally agree, he is doing a great job at rebalancing some things, some others i really dont agree, anyways he does not hide and talks to people, i agree with this change, bcs are quite useless (except for attack bcs wich i think are fine now), they have the weakness of a bss but not his advantages.
If youre going to add a mjd to small ships, then you really need to reduce the spool up time, reduce the range and increase the cooldown, and of course, make it only available to destroyers, and combat destroyers, no dictors with mjd plz. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:29:00 -
[546] - Quote
Hexatron Ormand wrote: I guess you designed it mainly as a "get away card" for the DST.
It's a 'get away card' for both. Soloers are going to be left having to just accept they can't kill them in many cases, it's a pretty crappy choice being forced to dive on a target which often means getting blobbed and dying or having to watch it mjd away.
I mean a lot is being made of the fitting requirements for them, but you can swing that argument right around and talk about the requirements for roaming then. It's not like you've got endless amounts of mids to go for a long and short point, so do you select a disrupter which can't hold down much at all anymore or go with a scram where you not only have to be pretty welpy to catch anything but in most scenarios the target is going to start further than 9km away and more than likely just watch them warp off. And this is in an era where there is so few legit targets anyway.
I guess we're just all expected to play consensual blobs online 2014. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
198
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:42:00 -
[547] - Quote
1. IMHO the MMJD upsets the scram vs disruptor balance. 2. Malcanis' law (e.g. PL Vultures)
I'ld prefer if DST would have the grid and ability to mount LMJD (and plates) |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
238
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:46:00 -
[548] - Quote
Randolph Sykes wrote:Those who are proposing 50 km range - how it makes it any different from 100 km? What can you achieve with this? 20 km is fine, 25 km is fine, 30 km is fine, 40+ km is not fine at all. You want to still be in blaster or autocannon range after jumping or something? 75km would be fine in my opinion. 50km would also be ok but I wouldn't want to see any less. 100km is far too long range to have much useful combat purpose other than escape. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
699
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:50:00 -
[549] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there.
are you ruling out nerfing ABCs |
XxRTEKxX
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
114
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:54:00 -
[550] - Quote
Vivianne Athonille wrote:Will Command Ships also include the Industrial Command Ship (Orca) ?
Orca should be allowed to fit a large micro jump drive as it can fit 100mn ab/mwd. |
|
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3941
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:58:00 -
[551] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.
How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs?
Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode. An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone.
Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death?
|
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
243
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:58:00 -
[552] - Quote
how about we just get rid of the distinction between scams and disruptors and go to a total point system? Have two points of disruption act as the functional equivalent of a scram. This would not be an unmanageable situation for small/grps and solos - it would boil down to a "fitting" question of whether you carry two long points or one short one. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
220
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:23:00 -
[553] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:how about we just get rid of the distinction between scams and disruptors and go to a total point system? Have two points of disruption act as the functional equivalent of a scram. This would not be an unmanageable situation for small/grps and solos - it would boil down to a "fitting" question of whether you carry two long points or one short one. As long as you've got 2 mids available - and many, many kiting setups can find that kind of room - then essentially you're giving every kiting ship a 24km scram. That drastically reduces the counters to kiting ships, especially in gangs that are actually small as opposed to nullbear small. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
456
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:28:00 -
[554] - Quote
Here are two rough (paint.net ftw) diagrams of the range envelope of this module. One is a proposed 50km MJD, the other is the announced 100km MJD. Look at these diagrams and remember that CBC engagement range is roughly 0-20km (brawler fit) or 25-50km (sniper fit).
Which one of these would be more useful in combat?
50km: http://imgur.com/n0eFTaV
100km: http://imgur.com/irFFd6o
Not to scale, obviously. The diagrams assumes a starting distance to target of 50% the MJD's range.
The 50km is ideal for a brawler. 100km has a couple moves that are useful to a sniper if the target is also a sniper*, but it's 100% useless to and against a brawler, except as an escape device.
*if the target starts out closer then the diagram assumes, then the 100km jump has no options that place the target within weapon range, regardless of fit.
I submit that either 50km or 75km is the ideal choice, since it would allow both types of tactics to be used by modifying the angle of attack and initial range to target. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
636
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:29:00 -
[555] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.
How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs? Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode. An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone. Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death? bomb launches are only 1 sec long for the best and most skilled bomb groups. for the most part it can take anywhere from 3-4 seconds for the whole group to launch all the bombs. Even with 12 second spool up time, if you are quick on the draw you can avoid takin damage from the bombs launched toward the end. You won't escape damage from all of them but if you have enough tank to begin with you can avoid being bombed off the field in one go. |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
57
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:44:00 -
[556] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:Those who are proposing 50 km range - how it makes it any different from 100 km? What can you achieve with this? 20 km is fine, 25 km is fine, 30 km is fine, 40+ km is not fine at all. 50km is the range of a sniper fit BC. I flew with a corp that did 50km bc fleets for a while, it worked extremely well. Aside from the whole all-fights-start-at-0km-on-a-gate thing, anyway. 50km jumps would be perfect for this fleet setup. Also, 50km jumps give easy access to 25-50km jumps as well. By jumping at an angle to the target, instead of in a straight line, you can control the final range surprisingly well (yay Pythagoras). Try it on a BS in game. This means it would be useful to medium range fits and not just long range fits. For the same reason, 75km jumps would be a reasonable compromise as well. 100km is so far out of a BC combat range that it has no combat purpose. Escape is the only possible use for the module if the stats dont change. note to CCP: Pay attention to the two bolded words. They are imporant.
There's one other use for the MMJD as it stands currently: trying to tackle 100km kitey snipers without necessarily using probes to get a bead on them. That said, I think I could be convinced that 75km with a 9 second base spool time might also be reasonable. In any event, I'm looking forward to trying to get Cyclones on top of Ishtars with this module. Escape is not the only possible use; not dying in a fire trying to tackle snipers is at least a theoretical use. |
MaraudR73
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:54:00 -
[557] - Quote
Like I read a couple of times, its a good idea to make the range of the MMJD 75km with 9 seconds spool time, that would make them in line with the Battleships.
I still think the MMJD is just a big nerf to the warp disruptor and I still think MMJD should not be implemented, but knowing CCP they will push it through anyway like they did with the RLML....
So we better make the best of it..... |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
636
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:06:00 -
[558] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Here are two rough (paint.net ftw) diagrams of the range envelope of this module. One is a proposed 50km MJD, the other is the announced 100km MJD. Look at these diagrams and remember that CBC engagement range is roughly 0-20km (brawler fit) or 25-50km (sniper fit). Which one of these would be more useful in combat? 50km: http://imgur.com/n0eFTaV100km: http://imgur.com/irFFd6oNot to scale, obviously. The diagrams assumes a starting distance to target of 50% the MJD's range. The 50km is ideal for a brawler. 100km has a couple moves that are useful to a sniper if the target is also a sniper*, but it's 100% useless to and against a brawler, except as an escape device. *if the target starts out closer then the diagram assumes, then the 100km jump has no options that place the target within weapon range, regardless of fit. I submit that either 50km or 75km is the ideal choice, since it would allow both types of tactics to be used by modifying the angle of attack and initial range to target. I dont know if you did any math there but:
http://imgur.com/Q5XLbYv (and yes those measurements for the radii are to scale)
I don't know where you got an acute angle where 15km is an option. Unless you plan to jump into their flight path, the closest option availible is always directly behind them, so long as they are beyond 50% range. Closer than 50% and then you have to get some weird angle on either side of them.
My opinion on the 50km size is that it cannot be used by anyone who isn't attempting to get closer to a specific range sniper in there brawler fit. Its almost useless to try and attack long range ABCs who are out beyond 75km (mjd + disruptor range). It also removes the battlecruisers ability to get out of a BS clusterf*ck where the ranges can reach out to 50+ on a fewr weapons with the right ammo and some tracking computers (not too uncommon). And with smaller faster ships, especially interceptors, 50km may not be far enough to use as an escape method. This modules intended purpose seems to be to allow close range ships to attempt to get closer to long range snipers, and for those same ships (and their sniper counterparts) to get out of the grasp of brawlers who have gotten in too close. 100km alows you to get in range of very distant foes and to also get out of range of enemies that are too close.
This also aloys you to take on the ABCs that don't have MJD and are very long range, increasing the chance of catching them.
But that's just my take on it.
And no matter what range you choose there will always be holes that you cannot reach properly. |
Potions Master
GearBunny Redrum Fleet
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:12:00 -
[559] - Quote
Can we get the MMJD on mining barges and exhumers too?
(Why not just let every ship have the option, then it will be balanced for everyone) |
Annedalda Dixenme
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:13:00 -
[560] - Quote
I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.
"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"
If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.
|
|
XMaxan
The Legion of X
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:18:00 -
[561] - Quote
Could just add MJD of all sizes that have varying affects and are only limited by fitting, you know like current MWD. Make the distance jumped a factor based on ships speed and mass, meaning smaller MJD modules can jump small ships comparable distances with much less fitting need.
Personally I like the idea of being able to jump a set distance and suffer shorter cooldowns as a result though. Makes the use of the module take more planning and makes the mission running marauders have a way to jump right on gate when they clear a room. |
XMaxan
The Legion of X
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:21:00 -
[562] - Quote
Potions Master wrote:Can we get the MMJD on mining barges and exhumers too?
(Why not just let every ship have the option, then it will be balanced for everyone)
Just noticed your post, I agree all should be able to fit MJD's, same as MWD's.
Also nice look. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1171
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:34:00 -
[563] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there.
I'm counting on you, because now I'm super dissapointed. :(
Even though in Brave we would have probably been on the receiving end I know :D Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2142
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:40:00 -
[564] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there.
Never do that..
Arty nado's sitting 100km away from you are annoyingly uncatchable as it is.. they don't need more. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
19
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:54:00 -
[565] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.
"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"
If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.
Have you ever actually small ganged yourself? Because your attempt at being patronising is just showing your ignorance and lack of experience on the subject. |
Draco Knight
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 20:57:00 -
[566] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:how about we just get rid of the distinction between scams and disruptors and go to a total point system? Have two total points of disruption act as the functional equivalent of a scram (taking into account any subtractions you would have to make for fitted stabs). This would not be an unmanageable situation for small/grps and solos - it would boil down to a "fitting" question of whether you carry two long points or one short one and it could be countered by folk fitting stabs in lowslots.
First of all, I am of the opinion that all warp cancelling mods, disruptors, scramblers and bubbles should also cancel all types of MJDs, always. IMO teleportation gameplay is bad gameplay(especially on grid teleportation) and there is enough of that in eve already.
But, if we have to have it, this suggestion above is actually a good suggestion. Interdiction bubbles should cancel all warp and jump mechanics as originally intended.
|
Ivory Kantenu
Sons of The Forge SpaceMonkey's Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:04:00 -
[567] - Quote
So....can I get the ability to put one on my Noctis?
Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9990
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:11:00 -
[568] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.
How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs? Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode. An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone. Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death? bomb launches are only 1 sec long for the best and most skilled bomb groups. for the most part it can take anywhere from 3-4 seconds for the whole group to launch all the bombs. Even with 12 second spool up time, if you are quick on the draw you can avoid takin damage from the bombs launched toward the end. You won't escape damage from all of them but if you have enough tank to begin with you can avoid being bombed off the field in one go. Congratulations you hit MJD early enough so that you can avoid the last 2-3 bombs... and die anyway because you increased your signature radius hitting MJD. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
1220
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:12:00 -
[569] - Quote
Man what fits, or scenarios, are you people coming up with that makes the Tier-3s super pwnmobiles when you add in a once-every-3-minutes 100km blink? This isn't rhetorical, I really have to know what makes the Teir-3s that much more overpowered than Command ships
Is it like, sniping in lowsec? Because if you think that would be game-breakingly overpowered you can do this in a battleship with: better tank, same damage, same range, align time within 10% of an attack BC, with an MJD and MWD - which would actually be nontrivial on most of the sniping tier-3s.
Enlighten me. ~ |
Annedalda Dixenme
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:26:00 -
[570] - Quote
Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.
Edit: No point in arguing with stupid. |
|
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
456
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:35:00 -
[571] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I dont know if you did any math there but: http://imgur.com/Q5XLbYv (and yes those measurements for the radii are to scale) ... And no matter what range you choose there will always be holes that you cannot reach properly.
No I didn't do any math, those were just quick-n-dirty jobs to illustrate the concept. Look at it more as "This kind of jump is closer range then you started." "That kind of jump is longer range then you started." and so forth.
My main point is that 100km is so far out of a BC's effective combat range that it has no useful purpose in normal small gang fights.
- Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
288
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:38:00 -
[572] - Quote
I love this idea.
This will really shake up low sec combat especially.
Not making it usable for attack BC's probably a good idea, 1400mm Nado would be just a bit op.
Plus it will let use BC's again against grossly OP setups like ishtars, which needed a severe nerf bat attack, so maybe this module is the counter instead of just an outright nerf to ishtars.
Thanks Fozzie, this is good stuff.
|
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
42
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:07:00 -
[573] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP. We already have "blanket on your face" called Falcon and EC drones, utterly ******** tank modules like dual X-large ASB on ships so ppl can deagro and dock/jump through gate. With this kind of approach you are making nearly every kiting ship useless against BCs. Could you please tell me the outcome of engagement between Prophecy and NOMEN for example after MMJD will be introduced? Can you please define the role of Warp Disruptor in future? We already have anchorable device with similar functionality for people who want to MJD out in any other class then BS. While I understand the reason of fitting such module to field command ships, I don't see any reasonable argument why it must be present on other BCs.
Please do us all a favor and stop trying to re-invent the wheel. We already have it and it is working. Please focus all your efforts and precious time (that we all pay for) on something better then yet another module or ship (like there are few disposable ships in this game). So much this. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
42
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:10:00 -
[574] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.
"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"
If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.
So if I'm flying in a huge blob with scram ships and enough logis to keep the scram ships up in brawl range then this isn't an issue for me, I just have my scram brick tanked proteus scram it while my 12 guardians rep him. I'll bear this useful advice in mind as I mourn the death of solo. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
21
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:13:00 -
[575] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.
Edit: No point in arguing with stupid.
Use realistic application, it helps. I'm sorry but getting your nose bent out of place after trying to patronise everyone whos concerns you don't understand is funny.
Your logic was/is completely flawed on the basis that your suggesting the only thing that matters is whether or not you can scramble somebody.
Anybody with real experience on the subject knows how much more to the discussion there is than that. Such as your argument only applies if you have a dedicated tackler, which many genuine small gangs don't, and obviously soloers definately don't. Or secondly you're assuming it's a :highfive: moment getting into scramble range, which for agile ships trying to avoid getting ganked in hostile territory, it usually isn't. Or how about a situation where your stretching a fight and the frigate you've decided to yolo after the BC has to minimize his transversal and head straight back into the hostiles friends to tackle? GL with that.
Of course.....those aren't elements interpreted very effectively on a calculator. |
Annedalda Dixenme
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:14:00 -
[576] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Rowells wrote:I dont know if you did any math there but: http://imgur.com/Q5XLbYv (and yes those measurements for the radii are to scale) ... And no matter what range you choose there will always be holes that you cannot reach properly. No I didn't do any math, those were just quick-n-dirty jobs to illustrate the concept. Look at it more as "This kind of jump is closer range then you started." "That kind of jump is longer range then you started." and so forth. My main point is that 100km is so far out of a BC's effective combat range that it has no useful purpose in normal small gang fights.
If either side has bookmarks, then you can use them to cover the distance. It's not uncommon for me to see people 100km off a gate. The idea is to use them at an angle or line that would put you at optimal. You are absolutely right that jumping 100km away from somebody won't help a BC looking for a fight, but with some trig you can cut distances by a very meaningful amount in 12seconds. Ines shows that pretty well.
The main issue is that it takes 180 seconds to fix a mistake if you make one. or as Rowelss showed, with just one jump there are many situations where it doesn't improve your situation.
The neat thing about these is that you can get anywhere within 200k with two jumps. That is 192 seconds or 1041m/s. So it's not like a ludicrous speed button, but it will make interesting choices for kiters and kitees. I would love to see some sort of new T2 BC with a marauder-type 1 minute CD on the MMJD.
|
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
288
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:21:00 -
[577] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:Annedalda Dixenme wrote:I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.
"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"
If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.
So if I'm flying in a huge blob with scram ships and enough logis to keep the scram ships up in brawl range then this isn't an issue for me, I just have my scram brick tanked proteus scram it while my 12 guardians rep him. I'll bear this useful advice in mind as I mourn the death of solo.
Agree with the above... if you cant grab someone on a gate in 12 secs your doing it wrong.
This module is a counter to nano setups (Ishtars ) that really really badly needs a counter, at the moment if you turn up with almost anything you name against an Ishtar setup you get pounded into scrap whist they stay out of scram range. Battlecruisers are especially useless against nano setups. There are only 1 or 2 counters to them (btw falcons are not it, they get wasted by the drones that are not effected by ecm), so the kitting setups get to keep range, apply ridiculous damage at low risk to themselves. **** that ****.
Roll on BC's with MJD. I wont be using them to get away, I will be using it to get into scram ranges of nano setups with high dps brawling bc's. |
Annedalda Dixenme
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:26:00 -
[578] - Quote
Bionic Wolf wrote:Annedalda Dixenme wrote:Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.
Edit: No point in arguing with stupid. Use realistic application, it helps. I'm sorry but getting your nose bent out of place after trying to patronise everyone whos concerns you don't understand is funny. Your logic was/is completely flawed on the basis that your suggesting the only thing that matters is whether or not you can scramble somebody. Anybody with real experience on the subject knows how much more to the discussion there is than that. Such as your argument only applies if you have a dedicated tackler, which many genuine small gangs don't, and obviously soloers definately don't. Or secondly you're assuming it's a :highfive: moment getting into scramble range, which for agile ships trying to avoid getting ganked in hostile territory, it usually isn't. Or how about a situation where your stretching a fight and the frigate you've decided to yolo after the BC has to minimize his transversal and head straight back into the hostiles friends to tackle? GL with that. Of course.....those aren't elements interpreted very effectively on a calculator.
The point is that the ideas of the MMJD being completely overpowered or not having a counter are ridiculous. As are the arguments that new mods need to be in place to counter them. The numbers are to back that claim up. That is how you make and discuss arguments. With facts.
What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.
Sometimes people will be fit in a way that outclasses you or at least doesn't give you a free loot pinata. You will have to deal with that. Don't expect CCP to keep a stale boring meta so that you can feel like a 1337 solo PVPer.
|
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
43
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:30:00 -
[579] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote: What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.
You think that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a mwd and therefore this change is no difference because longpoints don't do anything anyway? This is genuinely your argument? |
Annedalda Dixenme
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:36:00 -
[580] - Quote
Wrathful Penguins wrote:Annedalda Dixenme wrote: What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.
You think that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a mwd and therefore this change is no difference because longpoints don't do anything anyway? This is genuinely your argument?
No. That is not. I'm sorry that it was difficult to understand. Let me try again.
There are counters to these mods. The counter is well known. If your complaint is that you think the MMDJ will be overpowered because you can't keep up, then you should fit a scram and turn it on every time they try to spool. If you really want them to suffer you can even wait until they activate it so that they keep wasting cap, you have 12 seconds to do it.
It's not that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a MWD. I never even come close to saying anything like that. |
|
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
43
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:38:00 -
[581] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:Wrathful Penguins wrote:Annedalda Dixenme wrote: What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.
You think that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a mwd and therefore this change is no difference because longpoints don't do anything anyway? This is genuinely your argument? No. That is not. I'm sorry that it was difficult to understand. Let me try again. There are counters to these mods. The counter is well known. If your complaint is that you think the MMDJ will be overpowered because you can't keep up, then you should fit a scram and turn it on every time they try to spool. If you really want them to suffer you can even wait until they activate it so that they keep wasting cap, you have 12 seconds to do it. It's not that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a MWD. I never even come close to saying anything like that. If the only counter to a MMJD is flying a ship with a scram when solo and going into their scram range then where exactly does that leave longpoints and solo players in a game when most of their prey won't be alone? I guess if I add a falcon alt to break his scram when local +10s that'd work but it's hardly a good improvement. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
21
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 22:52:00 -
[582] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:Bionic Wolf wrote:Annedalda Dixenme wrote:Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.
Edit: No point in arguing with stupid. Use realistic application, it helps. I'm sorry but getting your nose bent out of place after trying to patronise everyone whos concerns you don't understand is funny. Your logic was/is completely flawed on the basis that your suggesting the only thing that matters is whether or not you can scramble somebody. Anybody with real experience on the subject knows how much more to the discussion there is than that. Such as your argument only applies if you have a dedicated tackler, which many genuine small gangs don't, and obviously soloers definately don't. Or secondly you're assuming it's a :highfive: moment getting into scramble range, which for agile ships trying to avoid getting ganked in hostile territory, it usually isn't. Or how about a situation where your stretching a fight and the frigate you've decided to yolo after the BC has to minimize his transversal and head straight back into the hostiles friends to tackle? GL with that. Of course.....those aren't elements interpreted very effectively on a calculator. The point is that the ideas of the MMJD being completely overpowered or not having a counter are ridiculous. As are the arguments that new mods need to be in place to counter them. The numbers are to back that claim up. That is how you make and discuss arguments. With facts. What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies. Sometimes people will be fit in a way that outclasses you or at least doesn't give you a free loot pinata. You will have to deal with that. Don't expect CCP to keep a stale boring meta so that you can feel like a 1337 solo PVPer.
Lol you're right there is no point arguing with stupid. Let me know when you're done playing calculators online and actually get a grasp how things work in reality. I mean lol at your suggestion that the solution is some kind of charge manouver.
Could we grab a cynabal and fit a scram and go barrelling into targets? Sure. Is it a good idea? Obviously not (although possibly to you based on the arguments you've made so far.)
Forcing everybody to use scrams instead of disrupters which the proposed change is on the verge at least of doing is destroying a major engagement strategy, and your suggestion that having everyone brawl is the opposite of a stale boring meta is ridiculous. |
Annedalda Dixenme
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 23:04:00 -
[583] - Quote
These are some of the saddest misinterpretations I have ever seen. Mods some counter other mods, some ships counter other ships. It's a strategy game. If you don't want to use the tools you are given, or form a new strategy as needed, then this is the wrong game of you. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
21
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 23:05:00 -
[584] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:These are some of the saddest misinterpretations I have ever seen. .
Pot meet kettle |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
44
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 23:09:00 -
[585] - Quote
And the counter to a nerf to a viable style of 1vmany PvP is apparently having more dudes than they have. This is not an acceptable option to many. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Mordus Angels
900
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 23:10:00 -
[586] - Quote
I see this thread went straight to stupid.
1) On attack BCs nothing changes, they are usually shooting aligned at full speed anyway, a good naga or blap-nado has near no tank anyway, they can't chance it. They get a little bit more breathing room by getting out of bubbles easier, but that may shoot them past their pings and landing at celestial is dicey. In low sec nothing changes, you don't have bubbles anyway.
2) On Combat BCs its an offensive application, since their projection is hindered by medium weapons, the idea would be to get them into range, in defense its near useless since most ceptor pilots with a brain are already burning along your align when they see the graphic. So its a moot point IF they aren't running stilettos that have a short point anyway, most fleet ceptor pilots aren't going to get caught sleeping, and unless they are on the back end of a wide orbit they are going to get there before you can align out. Its simply delaying the inevitable. The best use would be jumping down into range.
Eitherway, I don't see it as being gamebreaking. It changes a couple hulls, no biggie compared to a lot of the other changes. |
Gregor Parud
510
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 23:21:00 -
[587] - Quote
Elise Randolph wrote:Man what fits, or scenarios, are you people coming up with that makes the Tier-3s super pwnmobiles when you add in a once-every-3-minutes 100km blink? This isn't rhetorical, I really have to know what makes the Teir-3s that much more overpowered than Command ships
Is it like, sniping in lowsec? Because if you think that would be game-breakingly overpowered you can do this in a battleship with: better tank, same damage, same range, align time within 10% of an attack BC, with an MJD and MWD - which would actually be nontrivial on most of the sniping tier-3s.
Enlighten me.
If it's not that amazing as you put it, why are you advocating it then? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
637
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 23:34:00 -
[588] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Rowells wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.
How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs? Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode. An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone. Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death? bomb launches are only 1 sec long for the best and most skilled bomb groups. for the most part it can take anywhere from 3-4 seconds for the whole group to launch all the bombs. Even with 12 second spool up time, if you are quick on the draw you can avoid takin damage from the bombs launched toward the end. You won't escape damage from all of them but if you have enough tank to begin with you can avoid being bombed off the field in one go. Congratulations you hit MJD early enough so that you can avoid the last 2-3 bombs... and die anyway because you increased your signature radius hitting MJD. Well that depends on the ship, tank, and bomb run. It does work often enough. |
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
225
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 00:27:00 -
[589] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP. We already have "blanket on your face" called Falcon and EC drones, utterly ******** tank modules like dual X-large ASB on ships so ppl can deagro and dock/jump through gate. With this kind of approach you are making nearly every kiting ship useless against BCs. Could you please tell me the outcome of engagement between Prophecy and NOMEN for example after MMJD will be introduced? Can you please define the role of Warp Disruptor in future? We already have anchorable device with similar functionality for people who want to MJD out in any other class then BS. While I understand the reason of fitting such module to field command ships, I don't see any reasonable argument why it must be present on other BCs.
Please do us all a favor and stop trying to re-invent the wheel. We already have it and it is working. Please focus all your efforts and precious time (that we all pay for) on something better then yet another module or ship (like there are few disposable ships in this game). Ahahaha
I love how at first you talk warmly about no more 'coward ways of PVP', then later in the post you reveal this is really all about protecting your pet form of coward PVP.
Go fly a brawler ship if you don't like 'coward PVP'. Oh, wait, you'll just get kited by the cowards with link alts? GEE.
All this does is give brawling ships a fighting chance against the hordes of idiots in Nomens and Ishtars like yourself. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1212
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 00:36:00 -
[590] - Quote
Beaver Retriever wrote:
All this does is give brawling ships a fighting chance against the hordes of idiots in Nomens and Ishtars like yourself.
Except it doesnt do anything of the sort. It lets them end the fight by pressing a button, as opposed to now where you have to end the fight by piloting or deagressing on a gate/station. If you want to have a chance to kill a kiter, you still have to slingshot it. |
|
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
486
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 01:05:00 -
[591] - Quote
Users of low-commitment tactics that prioritize the ability to run away over the ability to hold their target will occasionally lose kills when fighting a small subset of ships because they were afraid to risk close action.
How terrible and imbalanced. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1375
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 01:12:00 -
[592] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Users of low-commitment tactics that prioritize the ability to run away over the ability to hold their target will occasionally lose kills when fighting a small subset of ships because they were afraid to risk close action.
How terrible and imbalanced.
Ocasionaly? How many tiemsyou see battleships without MJD nowadays? oo yes almost never
And i can reprase your sentence for more accuracy :
Users of --low-commitment tactics-- inteligent tactic that prioritize the ability to --run away-- control the fight over the --ability to hold their target-- stupidity of pressing approach and f1 , will occasionally lose kills when fighting a --small-- MAJOR subset of ships because they --were afraid to risk-- have brains and do not want to fall for baits that will then be joined by a large blob waiting "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3601
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 01:21:00 -
[593] - Quote
I don't have a dog in this fight... but I love this thread. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
637
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 01:43:00 -
[594] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Rowells wrote:I dont know if you did any math there but: http://imgur.com/Q5XLbYv (and yes those measurements for the radii are to scale) ... And no matter what range you choose there will always be holes that you cannot reach properly. No I didn't do any math, those were just quick-n-dirty jobs to illustrate the concept. Look at it more as "This kind of jump is closer range then you started." "That kind of jump is longer range then you started." and so forth. My main point is that 100km is so far out of a BC's effective combat range that it has no useful purpose in normal small gang fights. if you are referring to combat battle cruisers than yes this is a bit excessive. However attack battle cruisers, battleships, and some T2 cruisers, can be very effective at these ranges. So the difference between wanting 50/100km MJD is who you think is most likely to appear, and how much breathing room you want in case you need to gtfo.
|
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1446
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:07:00 -
[595] - Quote
Elise Randolph wrote:Man what fits, or scenarios, are you people coming up with that makes the Tier-3s super pwnmobiles when you add in a once-every-3-minutes 100km blink? This isn't rhetorical, I really have to know what makes the Teir-3s that much more overpowered than Command ships
Is it like, sniping in lowsec? Because if you think that would be game-breakingly overpowered you can do this in a battleship with: better tank, same damage, same range, align time within 10% of an attack BC, with an MJD and MWD - which would actually be nontrivial on most of the sniping tier-3s.
Enlighten me.
Tornado scan res (base) : 288 Typical 1400 camping instalock setup: 700mm Align time: 6.77s
Maelstrom scan res (base): 113 Typical 1400 camping setup: 368mm (far from instalock) Align time: 13.2s
This is why ABCs reign supreme for lowsec (and indeed, all) arty camps. QED you can go back to dropping supers in Amamake, pls. J's before K's. ::brofist:: http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery Team Liquid
46
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:10:00 -
[596] - Quote
You also have to remember that a 50km jump allows you to use the mmjd as more of an offensive positional tool. For example, you can pounce on top of logi, recons, people who are burning away from your gang to secure points on them. It also preserves the mmjd as an escape tool, allowing you to remove yourself from the opponents longpoint and warp off.
Im wondering what the exact logic behind the 'it lets you get out from battleships' argument is because as far as I know large micro jump drives also have a 100km range so they can just mjd back on top of you and it does not change the situation where you are remarkably close to a battleship.
I do see the argument of getting out of bombs and bubbles, though bombs only have a 15km radius (total 30km diameter) explosion so 50km should be more than enough to get out of a bomb run. I am not sure how common it is to quickly set up a field of bubbles 50km+ long, but it seems unrealistic to me so you should be able to remove your fleet from a field of bubbles and warp off/reposition from there.
I would love to see more arguments on how 100km jump is superior to a 50km just based on bc engagement ranges (especially now that abcs wont be using them) as well as how 100km would be superior as an offensive position tool. As far as arguments presented in the thread, there seem to be far more showing that a 50km jump would ultimately give pilots more options than a 100km jump. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
21
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:34:00 -
[597] - Quote
Viceorvirtue wrote:a 50km jump would ultimately give pilots more options than a 100km jump.
I'm completely against the idea of the module altogether, but, I agree with the above, if it is intended to have combat application as opposed to simply a gtfo module then a 50km range makes much more sense. |
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:38:00 -
[598] - Quote
Maybe the answer is to release variants of the MJD. not sure what the naming convention would be but there could be MJD's that run either 50km or 100km.
Although tbh I suspect that the reason people are suggesting 50 is to nerf it against anti-kiting setups as Ishtars are typically at the 70- to 80km range or there about. Can't wait to see someone drop a fleet of BCs on ishtars at zero. they might actually get scrammed....
100km jump range please. |
Wrathful Penguins
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
46
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:42:00 -
[599] - Quote
Bionic Wolf wrote:Viceorvirtue wrote:a 50km jump would ultimately give pilots more options than a 100km jump. I'm completely against the idea of the module altogether, but, I agree with the above, if it is intended to have combat application as opposed to simply a gtfo module then a 50km range makes much more sense. And a 0m/s upon landing rather than conserved momentum which doesn't help you land tackle if he's moving faster than you and not in range when you land but does help you instawarp out on landing. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
21
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:50:00 -
[600] - Quote
If Ishtars are typically at 70-80km, how do they tackle? Most kiting systems would struggle much worse against a 50km jump... the brawler could jump straight into where the kiter is heading and would have far more chance of landing tackle before the kiter counter pilots away. It would also allow a kiter who is paying enough attention a more realistic opportunity to burn roughly where the target is going to land. Which is why I said I think it has more combat application than the 100km one which the majority of time is just used as a way to avoid dying. |
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Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:09:00 -
[601] - Quote
Bionic Wolf wrote:If Ishtars are typically at 70-80km, how do they tackle? Most kiting systems would struggle much worse against a 50km jump... the brawler could jump straight into where the kiter is heading and would have far more chance of landing tackle before the kiter counter pilots away. It would also allow a kiter who is paying enough attention a more realistic opportunity to burn roughly where the target is going to land. Which is why I said I think it has more combat application than the 100km one which the majority of time is just used as a way to avoid dying.
They have other ships with them for the long range point. Arazu / lach or proteus... that or factions points with links. That or your all bubbled in. The point I was making is about how things are now rather than post patch. Personally I can't wait to boosh myself either towards or away from Ishtars as needed.
Again I suspect your motives for arguing against 100km MJD are not completely honest. Like I suggested maybe there should be variants. - that or you could set the range of your MJD.
|
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery Team Liquid
46
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:13:00 -
[602] - Quote
Ok theres a good argument if ishtars are 70-80k away and you jump 100km, they are now 20-30k away. If you jump 50km they are...20-30k away. You also have to remember that unlike battleships, bcs don't have great projection. You start reaching the end of your damage at 40-50km. Also linked heated rf point range is 40somethingkm. so as was pointed out above, how are you being pointed by these ishtars from 70-80k, you should be able to warp off, land at 0 and possibly mjd in front of or on top of them as they burn out. If they are within linked rf point range you land on top of them and theres a good chance that they are going to be in a bad position once that happens.
Realistically bcs do not have the projection to be able to deal with your example of ishtars well, regardless of how far the mjd gets you. I would suggest mjd pulse apocs using scorch as you get to hit them for actual damage from 70-80km and are able to mjd closer if they want to try to burn outside of your hull bonused projection range. They also have a tracking bonus for when you land close to them and are likely to be hitting their lowest resist. That's the best solution to your Ishtar problem I can think of.
Back to mmjds, I feel 50km is going to be far more effective against recons, linked kiters, and logi as well as not shooting you too far past your own logi. Bcs don't have the buffer of battleships and while command ships may pull it off, going that long without logi in an aggressive 100km jump will lose you potentially more than you stand to gain. 50km jump allows your logi to actually keep up easily so you aren't going to be guaranteed to lose people if you want to be aggressive.
And this does nothing to stop it as a retreat module, you can just as easily turn around, mjd and warp off somewhere to get out of point range, even from recons since recons generally wont want to be within 40km of you and many recons aren't going to have 90km+ points. |
Bionic Wolf
Drunk Till Dawn
21
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:26:00 -
[603] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Bionic Wolf wrote:If Ishtars are typically at 70-80km, how do they tackle? Most kiting systems would struggle much worse against a 50km jump... the brawler could jump straight into where the kiter is heading and would have far more chance of landing tackle before the kiter counter pilots away. It would also allow a kiter who is paying enough attention a more realistic opportunity to burn roughly where the target is going to land. Which is why I said I think it has more combat application than the 100km one which the majority of time is just used as a way to avoid dying. They have other ships with them for the long range point. Arazu / lach or proteus... that or factions points with links. That or your all bubbled in. The point I was making is about how things are now rather than post patch. Personally I can't wait to boosh myself either towards or away from Ishtars as needed. Again I suspect your motives for arguing against 100km MJD are not completely honest. Like I suggested maybe there should be variants. - that or you could set the range of your MJD.
I'm not going to repeat myself and bore others because I've already posted in detail my thoughts on the subject, but I am curious what you think my hidden agenda is? I've been banging on the effect to solo and small gang and all of a sudden I'm covertly trying to defend the medium sized gangs meta?...... OK.......
I assure you for how I play an Ishtar sitting at 80km is largely pointless. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
486
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:27:00 -
[604] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Ocasionaly? How many tiemsyou see battleships without MJD nowadays? oo yes almost never
You hardly see battleships at all outside of fleets and station games. If battleships are getting away from you due to MJDs, try scramming them
Quote:And i can reprase your sentence for more accuracy :
Users of --low-commitment tactics-- inteligent tactic that prioritize the ability to --run away-- control the fight over the --ability to hold their target-- stupidity of pressing approach and f1 , will occasionally lose kills when fighting a --small-- MAJOR subset of ships because they --were afraid to risk-- have brains and do not want to fall for baits that will then be joined by a large blob waiting
You could've just said you want to be able to run away because you're not clever enough to commit intelligently. Everyone would understand. |
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 04:04:00 -
[605] - Quote
Fair enough.
Ofc the 100km boosh might let you get to the logi that are typically behind the ishtars. Either way I think that 100 gives you more flex to position your self to either overun the ishtars or the logi. Ether way there will be a period when you will be in optimal with heavy pulse or rails etc which is a **** ton better than being completely out of range as things are now. |
Colman Dietmar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 05:55:00 -
[606] - Quote
What would be really cool is if you could select jump range, same as with warping. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
73
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 05:56:00 -
[607] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat. Oh thanks god! Stealth bombers are NOT overpowered. It takes a considerable skill to fly them (unlike drone-assisting slowcats). They can be easily countered. But ABCs are their natural prey. And that's the way should be. |
Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
3898
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 05:59:00 -
[608] - Quote
With disruptors becoming more and more useless.
Will you be increasing the range of scrams to compensate? "Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk |
Gregor Parud
510
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 06:10:00 -
[609] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:With disruptors becoming more and more useless.
Will you be increasing the range of scrams to compensate?
From the look of it CCP's stance is "if you want to make sure you kill someone who isn't a kiter you'll have to commit to the fight, no more risk averse kiting vs a slow target".
Apart from that, CBC make up only a small portion of targets in most forms of pvp so it's not like long points are completely useless now. In yours that's different of course, perhaps this is (yet another) carebear buff?
|
Valeo Galaem
Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance
82
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 06:43:00 -
[610] - Quote
Reduce the jump range of the Medium Micro Jump Drive to 50km and half the spool-up time.
Introduce scripts that can be used by both Large and Medium MJDs that increase or decrease the range by a percentile and affect the spool-up time proportionally. |
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Shivanthar
Ace's and Eight's Brothers of Tangra
83
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 06:54:00 -
[611] - Quote
I am standing on a negative point of view about this. I try to be as neutral as possible.
I understand that this MMJD module is created with good intention, but I really want to see how it passed through the brain-storming of CCP tinkerers about what consequences it would create.
- You killed the purpose of mjd on battleships. - You created "battleship interceptors", maybe without intention. - Warp speed changes, TE nerf, expensive hulls... Who is going to use them, except high-sec (without any wardec)? Every logical buff that is given to medium hulls is filling more missions with T3 cruisers everywhere. - The only ones who should get this module is Deep Space Transports. - Maybe with lesser warm-up time, because the module is smaller, mass of the ships are smaller, it should charge quicker. - Jump range might be lower. Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. |
Cardano Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
162
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 07:02:00 -
[612] - Quote
I am for a script that modify the range of the jump:
Base range of the MMJD: 75Km time to reactivate: 2 minutes
Script 1: +33% to range, +50% to time reactivation Script 2: -33% to range, -50% to time reactivation |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
73
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 08:07:00 -
[613] - Quote
Elise Randolph wrote:Man what fits, or scenarios, are you people coming up with that makes the Tier-3s super pwnmobiles when you add in a once-every-3-minutes 100km blink? This isn't rhetorical, I really have to know what makes the Teir-3s that much more overpowered than Command ships
Is it like, sniping in lowsec? Because if you think that would be game-breakingly overpowered you can do this in a battleship with: better tank, same damage, same range, align time within 10% of an attack BC, with an MJD and MWD - which would actually be nontrivial on most of the sniping tier-3s.
Enlighten me. When you compare ABCs to Command ships - it's range. CSs have to fight within long scram range and ceptors can get them too. ABCs are outside of reach of both.
When you compare ABCs to Battleships - it's speed... and cost. I know, PL can welp titans every day, but for us, ordinary people, difference of 100+ mil per ship is THE difference. And by speed, I mean all of it - velocity, agility, warp speed, lock time. If you were not that hypocrite, you'd have noticed that it's not 10%, but 1.5 times for align time Tornado vs Tempest.
Now, the enlightenment. 1. "Solo" PVP on gate. A ceptor points some poor dude. Tornado warps in from the offgrid spot, insta lock, alpha wreck, warp away. It's quite hard to tackle him with long point or bubble. It's next to impossible to scram. BS is a looser here, cause it takes longer to warp in, to lock and to GTFO, which leaves a chance for victim to escape, and for hunter to lose rather expensive BS to some upper-hand. 2. Large fleet fight, say 50+ ABCs. They're kiting the **** out of you. You're trying to shoot, but they're out of range. You're trying to bomb, but they warp. Finally, a very skilled hictor pilot grabs their butts! Dont get me wrong, it's difficult. I mean it. Ask Makalu about keeping the BATTLESHIPS BUBBLED. Now, you have a chance of successfull bomb run. With MMJD, you dont. |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
109
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 08:27:00 -
[614] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Fair enough.
Ofc the 100km boosh might let you get to the logi that are typically behind the ishtars. Either way I think that 100 gives you more flex to position your self to either overun the ishtars or the logi. Ether way there will be a period when you will be in optimal with heavy pulse or rails etc which is a **** ton better than being completely out of range as things are now.
Jumping to the logi behind ishtars lands you on top of the optimal on the ishtars itself, you can fill in the rest yourself. And unless you're moving 2k/s after landing, your chances of catching the said logi will be low anyways. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1376
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 08:40:00 -
[615] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: Ocasionaly? How many tiemsyou see battleships without MJD nowadays? oo yes almost never
You hardly see battleships at all outside of fleets and station games. If battleships are getting away from you due to MJDs, try scramming them Quote:And i can reprase your sentence for more accuracy :
Users of --low-commitment tactics-- inteligent tactic that prioritize the ability to --run away-- control the fight over the --ability to hold their target-- stupidity of pressing approach and f1 , will occasionally lose kills when fighting a --small-- MAJOR subset of ships because they --were afraid to risk-- have brains and do not want to fall for baits that will then be joined by a large blob waiting You could've just said you want to be able to run away because you're not clever enough to commit intelligently. Everyone would understand.
Are you really that dumb or you want an oscar? No people do not KITE to be able to run away. PEopel KITE so they can STAY to the very end and fight against several ships by controlling their positioning and separatign the blob
ANYONE that thinks kiting is there to run away really have ZERO clue on PVP! ZERO!!!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1376
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 08:44:00 -
[616] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Cannibal Kane wrote:With disruptors becoming more and more useless.
Will you be increasing the range of scrams to compensate? From the look of it CCP's stance is "if you want to make sure you kill someone who isn't a kiter you'll have to commit to the fight, no more risk averse kiting vs a slow target". Apart from that, CBC make up only a small portion of targets in most forms of pvp so it's not like long points are completely useless now. In yours that's different of course, perhaps this is (yet another) carebear buff?
This is bullshit!
Risk averse my rear end! When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? They are usually the most balsy players, fighting against 4:1 or worse odds. Kiting is uses to force separation on enemy blobs.
IF i want to run away I would use CLOAKY T3. That is a cowards weapon. OR maybe.. a BC with MJD? That is a cowards option.
Anyoen that thinks kiting is used by risck averse has no idea on PVP. Come on.. try making a 5 billion isk cruiser to kite and fly around in 4:1 oreven worse situations. Lets see how balsy these people are.
Approach andpress F1 on othere hand is the tactic for MID CHALLANGED peopel that cannot comprehend tactics.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 10:30:00 -
[617] - Quote
Aside from the mayhem in pvp this will cause with t3 bc's, I can actually see this being used to bring back more usability with pve with battlecruisers. Navy drake with mjd will be fearsome indeed and QUITE useful for lvl 4s with this. Might even be able to pull of a 100mn ab/mjd combo for lvl 5s... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 10:44:00 -
[618] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights?
The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so.
Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable! |
Gregor Parud
512
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 11:25:00 -
[619] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:This is bullshit!
Risk averse my rear end! When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? They are usually the most balsy players, fighting against 4:1 or worse odds. Kiting is uses to force separation on enemy blobs.
IF i want to run away I would use CLOAKY T3. That is a cowards weapon. OR maybe.. a BC with MJD? That is a cowards option.
Anyoen that thinks kiting is used by risck averse has no idea on PVP. Come on.. try making a 5 billion isk cruiser to kite and fly around in 4:1 oreven worse situations. Lets see how balsy these people are.
Approach andpress F1 on othere hand is the tactic for MID CHALLANGED peopel that cannot comprehend tactics.
Kiting/nano age/WCS, it's all the same; you're using a strategy that allows you to attack without having to commit. Nothing wrong with that as such but don't for a second think that using either strategy makes you highly intelligent or super amazing. People use said strategies because they work, obviously, and especially/preferably against idiot targets so you can then bask in how much more intelligent you are for having found the orbit button and having gang link alts.
Again, nothing wrong with it but don't for a second try to convince people (or yourself) that it's anything other than choosing to not commit to a fight. And that's what they're trying to change with the slow BCs, those can't choose to aggress or run from faster ships which leaves the initiative with those other ships. Would they buff CBC again to a point where they CAN take the initiative they'll be overpowered again, THIS way they get buffed but still incapable of forcing themselves onto targets (and as such will never become a new meta), instead their force anyone wanting to kill them into their realm.
All that will happen is that the few BC you'll run in to won't be a viable target for your "running away" kiting fitted ship, this is of course terrible and should not be allowed.
No amount of fake high horse hilarious "look at me being special" or non-faked stupidity changes this. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
451
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 11:26:00 -
[620] - Quote
I'm really not sure why people are so against these. It's like they think they can be fitted for free in an extra mid slot all BC's are going to get to accomodate it.
Lets get real.
Just look at what happens to a ship when you fit one.
Ferox: A Neutron Blaster Ferox more or less has to give up it's MWD. It's a serious compromise. Otherwise you must downgrade weapons and or tank which removes one of the main advantages of a Blaster Ferox which is range with null.
A 250mm Rail Ferox can only fit a MJD. No MWD too
Drake: HAM Drake must sacrifice tank and dps in order to keep it's web and still have an MWD. Or it drops the web for an invul to maintain tank. It's still a massive compromise.
Naga: Blaster Naga is useful within 50km and fitting MWD + MJD severly gimps it's tank.
Rail Naga is utterly paper thin and would probably die in a fire during the 10 second spool up time so I don't see why they shouldn't get the module
Brutix Myrmidon and Talos all benefit from this module but still have to make sacrifices to fit it. Brutix can't be fully active tanked and have a MWD MJD combo. Shield Talos isn't feasable but a 1600mm plate blaster Talos looks fantastic and basically how it was designed to be in the first place.
Cyclone: Must drop the web and looses all of it's utility highs to fit MWD MJD combo.
Armour Hurricane looks great with this module. Shield not really possible.
Tornado Arty fit is paper thin and can only really fit a MJD. No space for an MWD too. This seems just fine to me.
AC fit - you've either got to armour tank it and loose a huge amount of DPS or make massive sacrifices in tank when shield fit. Seems fine.
Prophecy, Harbinger and Oracle all look pretty balanced with this module, very similar to Gallente.
Haven't looked at T2 yet or faction but I imagine the story is similar and this module tends to favour armour tankers. |
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
699
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 11:52:00 -
[621] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote: Haven't looked at T2 yet or faction but I imagine the story is similar and this module tends to favour armour tankers.
it doesn't |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
245
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 13:38:00 -
[622] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:[quote=Cannibal Kane]With disruptors becoming more and more useless.
Will you be increasing the range of scrams to compensate?
From the look of it CCP's stance is "if you want to make sure you kill someone who isn't a kiter you'll have to commit to the fight, no more risk averse kiting vs a slow target". /quote]
Well doesnt that just make this more of a rock paper scissor game then it already is?
I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Drunk 'n' Disorderly
178
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 13:50:00 -
[623] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
I think these mods are a little too binary for players to find clever or unexpected usage.
Given that the cooldown excludes jump out / jump in or vica versa to adjust range the use of these devices to alter range is rather resticted to ships that can do stuff at 100km or can use one to escape.
I think scripts that alter the jump range would make these things both Large and Medium much more adaptable to attack rather than just flee.
I would like to see scripts for 25km 50km 75km 100km 150km 200km 250km
also maybe a 50% boost for overheating.
|
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
77
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 13:51:00 -
[624] - Quote
I'm very undecided about this kind of module...
But on one hand, this does mean more people will be attacking blobs (without having to actually be in a blob) while still retaining the possible exit strategy of mjd. I'd say this means we'll see more bc fleets risk fighting blobs, and that, is content folks. |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
415
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 14:23:00 -
[625] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so. Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable!
A ship that fits to kite forces the user to give up plenty of options: a strong tank, capacitor, sustainability... If you were to truly 'even the fight', you'd give all of those to kiting ships in return for being able to fit an MMJD on your ratting/fleet ship of flavor. But you don't want to do that, cause it's ********. Just like your get out of jail free card. |
Onictus
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Black Legion.
901
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 14:28:00 -
[626] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Aside from the mayhem in pvp this will cause with t3 bc's, I can actually see this being used to bring back more usability with pve with battlecruisers. Navy drake with mjd will be fearsome indeed and QUITE useful for lvl 4s with this. Might even be able to pull of a 100mn ab/mjd combo for lvl 5s...
EDIT: Yup it fits with implants. Either geno set and 3% cpu or just 5% cpu implant. Run like buffer 100mn heavy tengu; just pull range and kite. Not exactly how well sig will work, but it's cap stable, and the hardeners will swap depending what you're fighting. Tanking hybrids with this setup if it takes any stray shots. [Drake Navy Issue]
[High Slots] Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
[Med Slots] Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Kinetic Deflection Field II Thermic Dissipation Field II Domination 100MN Afterburner Medium Micro Jump Drive l
[Low Slots] True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Reactor Control Unit Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
[Rigs] Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router II
That is a tasty ass killmail.
|
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
1064
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 14:46:00 -
[627] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100. Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight. I'd support that. BC's are pretty fast as they are already. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
488
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:37:00 -
[628] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so. Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable! A ship that fits to kite forces the user to give up plenty of options: a strong tank, capacitor, sustainability... If you were to truly 'even the fight', you'd give all of those to kiting ships in return for being able to fit an MMJD on your ratting/fleet ship of flavor. But you don't want to do that, cause it's ********. Just like your get out of jail free card.
Don't be obtuse. Fitting to kite forces a ship to give up absolutely nothing that actually matters in practice, and a close range brawling ship needs everything a kiting ship does and more besides. |
Jaz Antollare
Deadly Loneliness
100
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 16:33:00 -
[629] - Quote
How about a new t2 ship (BC for example) that can chose the working range of mjd? may be like 30-150km. Or the longer you charge it, the farther you jump? :D ( example: like for 30 sec of charging you can jump up to 200-300km ) |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
363
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:36:00 -
[630] - Quote
having another modules that requires Manuel piloting in this game is just plain dumb. since every pvp aspect can be done by right clicking.
this modules needs to just plop you at zero on your target none of this bomb guidance crap.
pocket, the module plopping you are zero will just encourage brawls. and to this i say, as it should be. |
|
ElextriX
Snuff Box
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:51:00 -
[631] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so. Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable! A ship that fits to kite forces the user to give up plenty of options: a strong tank, capacitor, sustainability... If you were to truly 'even the fight', you'd give all of those to kiting ships in return for being able to fit an MMJD on your ratting/fleet ship of flavor. But you don't want to do that, cause it's ********. Just like your get out of jail free card. Don't be obtuse. Fitting to kite forces a ship to give up absolutely nothing that actually matters in practice, and a close range brawling ship needs everything a kiting ship does and more besides.
Lol what? No.
That is not even close to being true. Kiting ships have to give up a lot to be effective, you think people use nano's/overdrives and similar mods because they think it enhances their ship in brawl mode? Or how about all the ewar and tackle advantages of being a brick tank that kiting setups have a lot less opportunity to use.
|
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
639
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:23:00 -
[632] - Quote
Does a focused hictor point jam a MJD? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5667
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:20:00 -
[633] - Quote
Rita Zechs wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.
No it's not if the bombing run is done with any level of competency (you can't get out in time if you don't get advance warning). Will you apply to RIOT and go ruin another game already? Which means you can't just slop out a half assed bombing run and get good results simply because someone dropped a bubble on your targets.
Also, mind your manners. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Draco Knight
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:24:00 -
[634] - Quote
On grid teleporting is the worst idea ever conceived PERIOD. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5667
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:27:00 -
[635] - Quote
ElextriX wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:When do you see kiting ships RUn away rom fights? The minute it stops going well. How many times do you see someone who can disengage and is losing NOT do so. Now other people can disengage in a similar fashion. Quick, call the police! They've levelled the playing field, this is unacceptable! A ship that fits to kite forces the user to give up plenty of options: a strong tank, capacitor, sustainability... If you were to truly 'even the fight', you'd give all of those to kiting ships in return for being able to fit an MMJD on your ratting/fleet ship of flavor. But you don't want to do that, cause it's ********. Just like your get out of jail free card. Don't be obtuse. Fitting to kite forces a ship to give up absolutely nothing that actually matters in practice, and a close range brawling ship needs everything a kiting ship does and more besides. Lol what? No. That is not even close to being true. Kiting ships have to give up a lot to be effective, you think people use nano's/overdrives and similar mods because they think it enhances their ship in brawl mode? Or how about all the ewar and tackle advantages of being a brick tank that kiting setups have a lot less opportunity to use. Perhaps you could point out the inherent advantages you gain to tackling when flying a ship outfitted as a brick tank?
You might also have a conversation with other pilots that equip for kiting, so that they can share their opinion on the advantages of being able to engage/disengage from combat at will. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5667
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:39:00 -
[636] - Quote
Draco Knight wrote:On grid teleporting is the worst idea ever conceived PERIOD. No, the ability to move massive amounts of material or capitol ships immense distances in the blink of an eye was the worst idea ever. The ability to chose to be able to tactically reposition on grid every 3 minutes (give or take) as a fitting option is a complex option to balance properly, but not necessarily a bad idea. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10008
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 20:45:00 -
[637] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Draco Knight wrote:On grid teleporting is the worst idea ever conceived PERIOD. No, the ability to move massive amounts of material or capitol ships immense distances in the blink of an eye was the worst idea ever. The ability to chose to be able to tactically reposition on grid every 3 minutes (give or take) as a fitting option is a complex option to balance properly, but not necessarily a bad idea. Both are complex options to balance properly. I'm arguing at least that battleships being given this option was a really good idea and has worked somewhat to make them more popular. Extending this option to lower classes of ships will just move battleships back into obscurity. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 21:41:00 -
[638] - Quote
100km minimum or scripts to allow a determine of he range.
Anything else no thanks, certainly no to 50-70. That is just people that like kiting setups trying to nerf it before its out.
Great idea this, a big fight with BC's booshing all over the place will be great. |
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
1222
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 22:50:00 -
[639] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:
Tornado scan res (base) : 288 Typical 1400 camping instalock setup: 700mm Align time: 6.77s
Maelstrom scan res (base): 113 Typical 1400 camping setup: 368mm (far from instalock) Align time: 13.2s
This is why ABCs reign supreme for lowsec (and indeed, all) arty camps. QED you can go back to dropping supers in Amamake, pls.
Why would you want an MJD on an aligned, insta-locking ship? The MJD wouldn't buy you enough time to get another volley off, and your ship isn't designed for sustained damage. Also you'd want to use a Tempest over a Maelstrom, and utilize the extra slots you get from having to fit no fitting modules. Regardless, your argument is that people that sit aligned with insta-locking snipers on a gate would get a benefit is pretty ridiculous.
Gregor Parud wrote:
If it's not that amazing as you put it, why are you advocating it then?
Because people are against it on the tier-3 BCs while being in favor of it on command ships/BCs for reasons that doesn't exist, in doing so securing that a potentially dynamic shipclass gets relegated to garbage dumpster tier. It just makes no sense.
Skia Aumer wrote: When you compare ABCs to Command ships - it's range. CSs have to fight within long scram range and ceptors can get them too. ABCs are outside of reach of both.
Vultures can hit at 220km. Compared to traditional sniper-fit Tier-3s, Vultures out-tank (by a huge margin, ~1700%), out DPS (at range, at least), and even out-range (220km)
Quote: When you compare ABCs to Battleships - it's speed... and cost. I know, PL can welp titans every day, but for us, ordinary people, difference of 100+ mil per ship is THE difference. And by speed, I mean all of it - velocity, agility, warp speed, lock time. If you were not that hypocrite, you'd have noticed that it's not 10%, but 1.5 times for align time Tornado vs Tempest.
This is why fitting matters. To fit a sniping tempest with MJD requires no additional fitting mods, so you can put in two nanos. 6.8 s vs 7.8s
Quote: Now, the enlightenment. 1. "Solo" PVP on gate. A ceptor points some poor dude. Tornado warps in from the offgrid spot, insta lock, alpha wreck, warp away. It's quite hard to tackle him with long point or bubble. It's next to impossible to scram. BS is a looser here, cause it takes longer to warp in, to lock and to GTFO, which leaves a chance for victim to escape, and for hunter to lose rather expensive BS to some upper-hand.
The argument I made was not that BS are superior sniper ships, I was refuting that the addition of the MMJD on the tier-3s would be game-breakingly OP as people seem to suggest. Surely if that were the case, people would be willing to sacrifice 10% align time (is actually 14%, soz) to have access to this whoopingly ~overpowered~ module. If you want to warp in from a perch, blap, and warp out Tier-3 BCs are the way to go, but the MMJD would have /no effect whatsoever/ here.
As far as #2 (won't let me quote RIP) your posit a scenario with a fleet of 50+ Tornados sniping my short-range high-sig fleet. I can't get a warp-in on the bad guys in your scenario because ??? (they're super good at kiting I guess), but I /do/ have a prober and a bombing wing and a dictor. Your assumption here is that my dictor is good enough to bubble them, the ~kiting~ target is too dumb to warp as the dictor lands, while being simultaneously too dumb to MWD out of said bubble, and my perfectly timed bomb-run lands. In spite of this great coordination and luck, my bomber squad is incapable of being setup in such a way as to catch them as they all blink to a predictable position. Also the snipers are hilariously gimped because they have to fit both an MJD and an MMJD.
Seems legit.
While this may seem ideal on paper, this situation is very rare to see in reality. In fact, it requires such ineptitude that I'd argue having an MMJD wouldn't save the fleet. What if I told you that there already exists a doctrine that can snipe the way you described while being both impractical to probe and bubble immune 100% of the time, instead of once every 3 minutes. Surely there would be a 30 page thread about how game-breakingly overpowered it was? Spoiler alert! There DOES exist such a ship, the Tengu, and there are no such threads because, well, it's not game-breakingly overpowered.
So the tl;dr of all this is that the ships only get more annoying /on paper/. In reality, though, nothing really changes. And if you can think of a way that makes it so broken, there exists a platform that you can use to exploit this inequality. Instead, a once-robust shipclass will keep drudging along as a predictable sniping platform. ~ |
Gregor Parud
514
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 23:03:00 -
[640] - Quote
So if it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, as you put it, why are you investing so much effort in frantically trying to convince ppl that ABC should get MMJD? Hmm?
ABC are fine, more than fine. Giving ABC, capable of high projected dps, MJD would create a massive new meta. And that is of course what you're angling for; you're not interested in balancing, you just want a new lol toy to abuse the **** out of.
|
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
451
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 23:26:00 -
[641] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Does a focused hictor point jam a MJD?
No. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
GreenSeed
1018
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 23:56:00 -
[642] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:So if it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, as you put it, why are you investing so much effort in frantically trying to convince ppl that ABC should get MMJD? Hmm?
ABC are fine, more than fine. Giving ABC, capable of high projected dps, MJD would create a massive new meta. And that is of course what you're angling for; you're not interested in balancing, you just want a new lol toy to abuse the **** out of.
the thing is, giving an MJD to a snipping ABC changes very little, if anything it helps with the set up time. giving the MJD to a Command ship makes anything under CS an instant wreck.
as explained already, Vultures are monsters. astartes equally so. and absolutions used to be vulnerable to bubbles, now with MJDs not so anymore.
if you think CS are a non issue its because you live in low where if you see a CS its fitted with short range weapons (sleipnirs, EOS and the odd astarte). out on null, concerns about command ships in doctrines are very real. after all this game is 10 years old, even the goons managed to pull T3 as a doctrine, the SP is there. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3607
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 00:02:00 -
[643] - Quote
There is a really simple solution that was already touched on: reduce the distance of the MMJD to 50km. This should work on Command Ships, Combat Battlecruisers and Deep Space Transports only (as proposed). Drop the spool-up time by 25% to compensate, but do not even remotely consider scripting these. Battleships get 100km, Battlecruisers get 50km - and Tornados get nadda. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Iam Widdershins
project nemesis
859
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 00:11:00 -
[644] - Quote
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:The act of fitting and using the MMJD to escape is itself an interaction with the PVP player. That is a terrible excuse for an argument. People fit MJD to their Marauders all the time, but I don't feel very interacted-with. Do you? Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
Gregor Parud
514
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 00:11:00 -
[645] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:So if it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, as you put it, why are you investing so much effort in frantically trying to convince ppl that ABC should get MMJD? Hmm?
ABC are fine, more than fine. Giving ABC, capable of high projected dps, MJD would create a massive new meta. And that is of course what you're angling for; you're not interested in balancing, you just want a new lol toy to abuse the **** out of.
the thing is, giving an MJD to a snipping ABC changes very little, if anything it helps with the set up time. giving the MJD to a Command ship makes anything under CS an instant wreck. as explained already, Vultures are monsters. astartes equally so. and absolutions used to be vulnerable to bubbles, now with MJDs not so anymore. if you think CS are a non issue its because you live in low where if you see a CS its fitted with short range weapons (sleipnirs, EOS and the odd astarte). out on null, concerns about command ships in doctrines are very real. after all this game is 10 years old, even the goons managed to pull T3 as a doctrine, the SP is there.
CBC and CS lack the speed, warp speed and damage projection to ever become any sort of hilarious bullshit meta. Right now they have no place, no use in combat because they're too slow in many ways, they're under performing. With MJD they'll STILL be too slow in many ways but they have a gimmick that says that if you try to kite them it won't work. How is that a problem, kiting is a counter to slow ships and there's nothing much those ships can do against that, now they can. And all you have to do in your kiting ship is go "well, perhaps I won't be able to kill this guy".
Also, given that CBC and CS are in a somewhat bad spot atm, they will be buffed somehow. So you can choose, do you want to increase speed/agility on CBC/CS making them hilarious OP completely raping cruisers? I bet you don't, at least not if you're capable of being unbiased, so somehow they need a buff. This is a good one because it won't turn into a new meta and at the same time it plays into their current strengths.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend? |
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 00:15:00 -
[646] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:There is a really simple solution that was already touched on: reduce the distance of the MMJD to 50km. This should work on Command Ships, Combat Battlecruisers and Deep Space Transports only (as proposed). Drop the spool-up time by 25% to compensate, but do not even remotely consider scripting these. Battleships get 100km, Battlecruisers get 50km - and Tornados get nadda.
No no no.
50km will be meaningless, we need to be able to close the range towards ships that will be at least 80km range.
combact BCs are essentially helpless against kiting setups at the moment. Can't catch them, often cant shoot at them etc etc.
If you don't want ABC to have them you could argue that a 1400mm Nados will be OP for certain. However for the combat BCs they need the 100km to land them next to the kite setups and perhaps get a scram on or at least do some damage.
After all lets face it it's the kiting setups that risk the least, they get to keep range, have crazy damage projection and risk very very little especially in low sec.
100km or scripted system with variable range please at the very least.
It also needs to be 100km to allow mixed BS and BC MJD fleets. After the nerf to warp speed these ships took this might let us see mixed fleets again rather than blobs of one type or the other.
|
Onictus
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Black Legion.
901
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 00:22:00 -
[647] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Does a focused hictor point jam a MJD?
Nope, I thought it was dumb as well. |
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 01:19:00 -
[648] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Rowells wrote:Does a focused hictor point jam a MJD? Nope, I thought it was dumb as well.
Agree tbh, I think the focused script should work for certain even if the bubble does not. Poor old Hics are getting to be a bit of a rare sight.
|
Alexis Nightwish
State War Academy Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 01:50:00 -
[649] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months... lol wut?
If you want to be totally honest it should be like this:
CCP Fozzie should have wrote:non-Tier3 Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by Dominix battleships and Tech3 cruisers in recent months...
The MMJD module idea is really really bad. BSs needed it because of their horrible speed and agility. BCs and command ships do not have horrible speed or agility so they don't need this. DSTs probably won't use it due to the nature of gate camps. Please do not add this module. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3610
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 01:52:00 -
[650] - Quote
Maraner wrote:No no no.
50km will be meaningless, we need to be able to close the range towards ships that will be at least 80km range.
combact BCs are essentially helpless against kiting setups at the moment. Can't catch them, often cant shoot at them etc etc.
If you don't want ABC to have them you could argue that a 1400mm Nados will be OP for certain. However for the combat BCs they need the 100km to land them next to the kite setups and perhaps get a scram on or at least do some damage.
After all lets face it it's the kiting setups that risk the least, they get to keep range, have crazy damage projection and risk very very little especially in low sec.
100km or scripted system with variable range please at the very least.
It also needs to be 100km to allow mixed BS and BC MJD fleets. After the nerf to warp speed these ships took this might let us see mixed fleets again rather than blobs of one type or the other. OK, you sold me. So basically the latest proposed iteration then, yes? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10009
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 02:26:00 -
[651] - Quote
Beaver Retriever wrote:Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP. We already have "blanket on your face" called Falcon and EC drones, utterly ******** tank modules like dual X-large ASB on ships so ppl can deagro and dock/jump through gate. With this kind of approach you are making nearly every kiting ship useless against BCs. Could you please tell me the outcome of engagement between Prophecy and NOMEN for example after MMJD will be introduced? Can you please define the role of Warp Disruptor in future? We already have anchorable device with similar functionality for people who want to MJD out in any other class then BS. While I understand the reason of fitting such module to field command ships, I don't see any reasonable argument why it must be present on other BCs.
Please do us all a favor and stop trying to re-invent the wheel. We already have it and it is working. Please focus all your efforts and precious time (that we all pay for) on something better then yet another module or ship (like there are few disposable ships in this game). Ahahaha I love how at first you talk warmly about no more 'coward ways of PVP', then later in the post you reveal this is really all about protecting your pet form of coward PVP. Go fly a brawler ship if you don't like 'coward PVP'. Oh, wait, you'll just get kited by the cowards with link alts? GEE. All this does is give brawling ships a fighting chance against the hordes of idiots in Nomens and Ishtars like yourself. Skirmish ships take more skill than just "press button, jump 100 km away." "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Onictus
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Black Legion.
901
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 03:06:00 -
[652] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there.
I really don't see it changing anything on ABCs anyway, in long range fits 100km jump is going to put them out of lock range anyway. In shortrange mode, if they MJD, I really don't care they aren't shooting me anymore they are out of range.
Personally I call any engagement where I keep my ship a win. |
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 08:18:00 -
[653] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
sorry we are here to speak about EVE online, you might be in the wrong channel
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
913
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 09:38:00 -
[654] - Quote
Allow them on all BC hulls and then:
"Due to the higher energy-expended -to- mass ratio of the Medium MJD compared to regular MJDs, the ships signature blooms as if a regular MWD had been activated during the spool-up phase. Tech 2 hulls do not experience this bloom due to having military grade and hardened internal components (ie. better wiring)."
Else, restrict to T2 and transports to start with and see where it goes. |
Cardano Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
163
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 10:30:00 -
[655] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Does a focused hictor point jam a MJD?
I don't think so but it should |
Kane Fenris
NWP
150
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 11:28:00 -
[656] - Quote
Cardano Firesnake wrote:Rowells wrote:Does a focused hictor point jam a MJD? I don't think so but it should
it doesnt cause its no scram
i hink this whole point and jam system is inconsistent as **** cause the artificial difference between dis an scra effekt |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10018
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 13:00:00 -
[657] - Quote
Why does that same question get brought up every couple of pages? No, scripted WDFG does not stop an MJD, same as it does not stop an MWD. The only thing that stops MJD and MWD is a warp scrambler (any meta).
Please, nobody ask this again. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2216
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 13:04:00 -
[658] - Quote
First post says "restricted to combat battlecruisers" and then says it will provide great options for "attack battlecruisers".
|
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
366
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:29:00 -
[659] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:First post says "restricted to combat battlecruisers" and then says it will provide great options for "attack battlecruisers".
plz confirm all will be forgiven! |
Damen Apol
Dayman Industries
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:34:00 -
[660] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:First post says "restricted to combat battlecruisers" and then says it will provide great options for "attack battlecruisers".
It's because Fozzie has no idea what he is doing and is simply flying by the seat of his pants.
"Oh man that WoW game has some teleport thing we need one too." |
|
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
245
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:48:00 -
[661] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Does a focused hictor point jam a MJD?
unfortunately no. Basically this is a nerf to bubbles, hics and dictors. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
646
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:48:00 -
[662] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:First post says "restricted to combat battlecruisers" and then says it will provide great options for "attack battlecruisers".
probably didnt bother to redo the whole post after the edit |
Jake Maverick
The Scope Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:55:00 -
[663] - Quote
So now Kiting Talos becomes SUPER Kiting talos? :D |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
513
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 16:00:00 -
[664] - Quote
Jake Maverick wrote:So now Kiting Talos becomes SUPER Kiting talos? :D is talos a combat bc? |
Jake Maverick
The Scope Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 16:03:00 -
[665] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Jake Maverick wrote:So now Kiting Talos becomes SUPER Kiting talos? :D is talos a combat bc? no It's an attack BC ... crap...
Looks like the gnosis counts though! |
Alec Freeman
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
303
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 21:17:00 -
[666] - Quote
Errr... This is a terrible idea on all ships except the Deep Space Transport. The MJD is an anti PvP device. I would only deem it acceptable on a BS because of there **** mobility but on a cane which is also able to travel at 2k m/s. This is ****. |
Hanako Awazeki
Aztechnology Environmental Legion
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 21:41:00 -
[667] - Quote
ABC for MMJD! |
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
289
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 22:21:00 -
[668] - Quote
Alec Freeman wrote:Errr... This is a terrible idea on all ships except the Deep Space Transport. The MJD is an anti PvP device. I would only deem it acceptable on a BS because of there **** mobility but on a cane which is also able to travel at 2k m/s. This is ****.
No its a pro pvp module. It will let us engage ships that kite. It will force people to close and scram that want to tackle - and in turn get scrammed back.
It should ideally bring a return to combat BC fleets and perhaps even mixed fleets of BS and BC. If you cant scram someone in the spool up time of the MJD they are getting away for sure however there are far more pernicious ways to avoid gate camps - the jump align cloak warp f-ckery that has gone on for years for example.
Most BCs want if not actually NEED to close to close range for pew pew. The MJD will hopefully see an end to risk free setups like ishtars and some beam platforms, even the 1400mm nado fleets APOC fleets etc etc. It will let a bunch of club wielding thugs close to point back range and drop the smack.
Yes people will use them to avoid fights at times, but I suspect the module will cause more pvp than it reduces. |
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
158
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 22:53:00 -
[669] - Quote
What's the word on the absolution getting a fourth mid so that it can take advantage of these beauties? Right now, the absolution's three mids are already spoken for in any viable PvP setup that I can come up with. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1386
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 23:02:00 -
[670] - Quote
Maraner wrote:Alec Freeman wrote:Errr... This is a terrible idea on all ships except the Deep Space Transport. The MJD is an anti PvP device. I would only deem it acceptable on a BS because of there **** mobility but on a cane which is also able to travel at 2k m/s. This is ****. No its a pro pvp module. It will let us engage ships that kite. It will force people to close and scram that want to tackle - and in turn get scrammed back. It should ideally bring a return to combat BC fleets and perhaps even mixed fleets of BS and BC. If you cant scram someone in the spool up time of the MJD they are getting away for sure however there are far more pernicious ways to avoid gate camps - the jump align cloak warp f-ckery that has gone on for years for example. Most BCs want if not actually NEED to close to close range for pew pew. The MJD will hopefully see an end to risk free setups like ishtars and some beam platforms, even the 1400mm nado fleets APOC fleets etc etc. It will let a bunch of club wielding thugs close to point back range and drop the smack. Yes people will use them to avoid fights at times, but I suspect the module will cause more pvp than it reduces.
Not it will not allow that. Now kite ships wil just INGORE the BC move away and there will be LESS PVP. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|
Gregor Parud
521
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 06:33:00 -
[671] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Maraner wrote:Alec Freeman wrote:Errr... This is a terrible idea on all ships except the Deep Space Transport. The MJD is an anti PvP device. I would only deem it acceptable on a BS because of there **** mobility but on a cane which is also able to travel at 2k m/s. This is ****. No its a pro pvp module. It will let us engage ships that kite. It will force people to close and scram that want to tackle - and in turn get scrammed back. It should ideally bring a return to combat BC fleets and perhaps even mixed fleets of BS and BC. If you cant scram someone in the spool up time of the MJD they are getting away for sure however there are far more pernicious ways to avoid gate camps - the jump align cloak warp f-ckery that has gone on for years for example. Most BCs want if not actually NEED to close to close range for pew pew. The MJD will hopefully see an end to risk free setups like ishtars and some beam platforms, even the 1400mm nado fleets APOC fleets etc etc. It will let a bunch of club wielding thugs close to point back range and drop the smack. Yes people will use them to avoid fights at times, but I suspect the module will cause more pvp than it reduces. Not it will not allow that. Now kite ships wil just INGORE the BC move away and there will be LESS PVP.
It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
|
Draco Knight
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 11:19:00 -
[672] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is funny how lesser skilled pvp'ers believe kiting is getaway tactic, when it actually enables you to stay on grid and fight much longer, often in hostile territory, vastly outnumbered. There should be more to pvp in eve than hitting approach and apply scram+web, waiting for the rock, paper, scissor outcome. Kiting actually takes player skills to master.
Introducing more teleporting gameplay with point and bubble immunity, is a servere nerf to pvp in eve. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
451
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 11:23:00 -
[673] - Quote
Wrayeth wrote:What's the word on the absolution getting a fourth mid so that it can take advantage of these beauties? Right now, the absolution's three mids are already spoken for in any viable PvP setup that I can come up with.
This is why people need to calm down about this module.
It is not trivial to fit one of these.
Dedicating two midslots to propulsion is extremely difficult, especially considering that you're essentially fitting two MWD's worht of PG and CPU. This is where the balance happens. An Absolution could either dual prop or only fit the MJD. I would probably rely on my projection with lasers and only fit a MJD but this would not be particularly fun.
All the other BC's and CS's suffer similarly and must make large sacrifices in utility and ability to get the MJD fitted whilst retaining the MWD. |
MaraudR73
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 11:26:00 -
[674] - Quote
Yes, this whole MMJD is a nerf to warpdisruptors and solo kiting and small kiting gangs.....
NO to MMJD
Or at least drop the range on MMJD to 75km |
Gregor Parud
524
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 11:37:00 -
[675] - Quote
Draco Knight wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is funny how lesser skilled pvp'ers believe kiting is getaway tactic, when it actually enables you to stay on grid and fight much longer, often in hostile territory, vastly outnumbered. There should be more to pvp in eve than hitting approach and apply scram+web, waiting for the rock, paper, scissor outcome. Kiting actually takes player skills to master. Introducing more teleporting gameplay with point and bubble immunity, is a servere nerf to pvp in eve.
You realise that kiting at 20km is the same as "running away from that guy", right? Your kiting and projected dps is the paper to a scram fit ship's Rock. Stop thinking that you're some sort of special snowflake just because you learned there's slightly more to pvp than hitting approach. You're not special, you're not amazing and you ARE running, the whole time. THAT'S WHAT KITING IS. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 13:41:00 -
[676] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Maraner wrote:Alec Freeman wrote:Errr... This is a terrible idea on all ships except the Deep Space Transport. The MJD is an anti PvP device. I would only deem it acceptable on a BS because of there **** mobility but on a cane which is also able to travel at 2k m/s. This is ****. No its a pro pvp module. It will let us engage ships that kite. It will force people to close and scram that want to tackle - and in turn get scrammed back. It should ideally bring a return to combat BC fleets and perhaps even mixed fleets of BS and BC. If you cant scram someone in the spool up time of the MJD they are getting away for sure however there are far more pernicious ways to avoid gate camps - the jump align cloak warp f-ckery that has gone on for years for example. Most BCs want if not actually NEED to close to close range for pew pew. The MJD will hopefully see an end to risk free setups like ishtars and some beam platforms, even the 1400mm nado fleets APOC fleets etc etc. It will let a bunch of club wielding thugs close to point back range and drop the smack. Yes people will use them to avoid fights at times, but I suspect the module will cause more pvp than it reduces. Not it will not allow that. Now kite ships wil just INGORE the BC move away and there will be LESS PVP.
I simply dont understand the argument as to how this will let you engage kiters. If a kiter wants to keep you on the field they have to engage in point range. The 100km mmjd will not help you get closer to a kiter in point range - rather all it will do is let you leave. If the kiter is outside of point range say 25km to 80km, then the mmjd is still not going to allow you to get close enough to brawl as it will put you significantly beyond the kiter, allowing the kiter to continue kiting.
Ofc if the mmjd is implemented then kiters will not be able to hold any cbc or bs on the field outside of scram range and if the kiter gets into scram range then he is within web range. Hence, its not just a nerf to kiting, rather kiting becomes no longer viable against cbc or bs. So as I see it, with the mmjd fights against bs or cbc must start at 0 or they dont start at all. We swing bats at each other until one of us goes down. And who loses is largely preordained because of the rock, paper, scissor nature of the game. All in all the mmjd is a big hit to the idea that eve is player "skilled" game.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 13:43:00 -
[677] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Draco Knight wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is funny how lesser skilled pvp'ers believe kiting is getaway tactic, when it actually enables you to stay on grid and fight much longer, often in hostile territory, vastly outnumbered. There should be more to pvp in eve than hitting approach and apply scram+web, waiting for the rock, paper, scissor outcome. Kiting actually takes player skills to master. Introducing more teleporting gameplay with point and bubble immunity, is a servere nerf to pvp in eve. You realise that kiting at 20km is the same as "running away from that guy", right? Your kiting and projected dps is the paper to a scram fit ship's Rock. Stop thinking that you're some sort of special snowflake just because you learned there's slightly more to pvp than hitting approach. You're not special, you're not amazing and you ARE running, the whole time. THAT'S WHAT KITING IS.
So whats the answer? Remove paper as an option? We now all rock all the time?!? I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
452
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 13:51:00 -
[678] - Quote
Okay. I'm going to say it once again for those that don't want to listen.
FITTING A MJD IS NOT A TRIVIAL MATTER. IT IS DIFFICULT. IT REMOVES A FAIR CHUNK OF THE SHIPS UTILITY/TANK/DPS. SO MUCH SO THAT IT'S NOT TOO HARD TO EXPECT THAT THIS WILL NOT BE A "MUST HAVE FITTED" MODULE. TO THAT END. KITERS WILL STILL KILL BC's NOT SPORTING AN MJD BUT WILL STRUGGLE TO KEEP A BC FITTED WITH A MJD FROM ESCAPING
This is not an issue. Period. Full stop. End of conversation. |
Gregor Parud
524
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 13:51:00 -
[679] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Draco Knight wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is funny how lesser skilled pvp'ers believe kiting is getaway tactic, when it actually enables you to stay on grid and fight much longer, often in hostile territory, vastly outnumbered. There should be more to pvp in eve than hitting approach and apply scram+web, waiting for the rock, paper, scissor outcome. Kiting actually takes player skills to master. Introducing more teleporting gameplay with point and bubble immunity, is a servere nerf to pvp in eve. You realise that kiting at 20km is the same as "running away from that guy", right? Your kiting and projected dps is the paper to a scram fit ship's Rock. Stop thinking that you're some sort of special snowflake just because you learned there's slightly more to pvp than hitting approach. You're not special, you're not amazing and you ARE running, the whole time. THAT'S WHAT KITING IS. So whats the answer? Remove paper as an option? We now all rock all the time?!?
HOLY CRAP, THERE'S ONE SHIP TYPE (that's hardly used) THAT CAN EVADE YOUR "SUPERIOR" KITING, BETTER POST ABOUT HOW KITING NOW IS 100% USELESS! |
Orla- King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
71
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 13:57:00 -
[680] - Quote
LOUD NOISES!
seriously, these things should be fun. |
|
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 14:09:00 -
[681] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Draco Knight wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is funny how lesser skilled pvp'ers believe kiting is getaway tactic, when it actually enables you to stay on grid and fight much longer, often in hostile territory, vastly outnumbered. There should be more to pvp in eve than hitting approach and apply scram+web, waiting for the rock, paper, scissor outcome. Kiting actually takes player skills to master. Introducing more teleporting gameplay with point and bubble immunity, is a servere nerf to pvp in eve. You realise that kiting at 20km is the same as "running away from that guy", right? Your kiting and projected dps is the paper to a scram fit ship's Rock. Stop thinking that you're some sort of special snowflake just because you learned there's slightly more to pvp than hitting approach. You're not special, you're not amazing and you ARE running, the whole time. THAT'S WHAT KITING IS. So whats the answer? Remove paper as an option? We now all rock all the time?!? HOLY CRAP, THERE'S ONE SHIP TYPE (that's hardly used) THAT CAN EVADE YOUR "SUPERIOR" KITING, BETTER POST ABOUT HOW KITING NOW IS 100% USELESS!
I GUESS BECAUSE I TYPE IN CAPS THAT MAKES ME RIGHT? AMIRITE?!? CCP has said that they intend to or at least are considering adding the mjd for other ship types including ABCs. So yea, the discussion of how this is a nerf to kiting and the long point is relevant.. Beyond that - its already hard to find fights in this game - why add any mechanic that reduces the chance of pvp more then what we already got? I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 14:12:00 -
[682] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Okay. I'm going to say it once again for those that don't want to listen.
FITTING A MJD IS NOT A TRIVIAL MATTER. IT IS DIFFICULT. IT REMOVES A FAIR CHUNK OF THE SHIPS UTILITY/TANK/DPS. SO MUCH SO THAT IT'S NOT TOO HARD TO EXPECT THAT THIS WILL NOT BE A "MUST HAVE FITTED" MODULE. TO THAT END. KITERS WILL STILL KILL BC's NOT SPORTING AN MJD BUT WILL STRUGGLE TO KEEP A BC FITTED WITH A MJD FROM ESCAPING
This is not an issue. Period. Full stop. End of conversation.
Its funny the MJD seems to be a "must fitted" mod on bs now, despite the fitting issues. Dont see any good reason why that would change with the BCs. People value the ability to gtfo. So they will sacrifice where necessary to include the mjd. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
597
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 14:27:00 -
[683] - Quote
Has there been any mentioning of a mmjd on a proper prop subbed t3 yet?
Quite obviously not revamping t3s to also mount these things would be offensive ;)
Ab-sub, nullification, warp speed and mmjd, that would be a tough choice. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1386
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 14:31:00 -
[684] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:[ It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is hilarious how you think you have a clue about kiting and small scale PVP.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1386
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 14:32:00 -
[685] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Maraner wrote:Alec Freeman wrote:Errr... This is a terrible idea on all ships except the Deep Space Transport. The MJD is an anti PvP device. I would only deem it acceptable on a BS because of there **** mobility but on a cane which is also able to travel at 2k m/s. This is ****. No its a pro pvp module. It will let us engage ships that kite. It will force people to close and scram that want to tackle - and in turn get scrammed back. It should ideally bring a return to combat BC fleets and perhaps even mixed fleets of BS and BC. If you cant scram someone in the spool up time of the MJD they are getting away for sure however there are far more pernicious ways to avoid gate camps - the jump align cloak warp f-ckery that has gone on for years for example. Most BCs want if not actually NEED to close to close range for pew pew. The MJD will hopefully see an end to risk free setups like ishtars and some beam platforms, even the 1400mm nado fleets APOC fleets etc etc. It will let a bunch of club wielding thugs close to point back range and drop the smack. Yes people will use them to avoid fights at times, but I suspect the module will cause more pvp than it reduces. Not it will not allow that. Now kite ships wil just INGORE the BC move away and there will be LESS PVP. I simply dont understand the argument as to how this will let you engage kiters. If a kiter wants to keep you on the field they have to engage in point range. The 100km mmjd will not help you get closer to a kiter in point range - rather all it will do is let you leave. If the kiter is outside of point range say 25km to 80km, then the mmjd is still not going to allow you to get close enough to brawl as it will put you significantly beyond the kiter, allowing the kiter to continue kiting. Ofc if the mmjd is implemented then kiters will not be able to hold any cbc or bs on the field outside of scram range and if the kiter gets into scram range then he is within web range. Hence, its not just a nerf to kiting, rather kiting becomes no longer viable against cbc or bs. So as I see it, with the mmjd fights against bs or cbc must start at 0 or they dont start at all. We swing bats at each other until one of us goes down. And who loses is largely preordained because of the rock, paper, scissor nature of the game. All in all the mmjd is a big hit to the idea that eve is player "skilled" game.
Seems you misquoted.. because you are sayign the same I did.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 14:42:00 -
[686] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Maraner wrote:Alec Freeman wrote:Errr... This is a terrible idea on all ships except the Deep Space Transport. The MJD is an anti PvP device. I would only deem it acceptable on a BS because of there **** mobility but on a cane which is also able to travel at 2k m/s. This is ****. No its a pro pvp module. It will let us engage ships that kite. It will force people to close and scram that want to tackle - and in turn get scrammed back. It should ideally bring a return to combat BC fleets and perhaps even mixed fleets of BS and BC. If you cant scram someone in the spool up time of the MJD they are getting away for sure however there are far more pernicious ways to avoid gate camps - the jump align cloak warp f-ckery that has gone on for years for example. Most BCs want if not actually NEED to close to close range for pew pew. The MJD will hopefully see an end to risk free setups like ishtars and some beam platforms, even the 1400mm nado fleets APOC fleets etc etc. It will let a bunch of club wielding thugs close to point back range and drop the smack. Yes people will use them to avoid fights at times, but I suspect the module will cause more pvp than it reduces. Not it will not allow that. Now kite ships wil just INGORE the BC move away and there will be LESS PVP. I simply dont understand the argument as to how this will let you engage kiters. If a kiter wants to keep you on the field they have to engage in point range. The 100km mmjd will not help you get closer to a kiter in point range - rather all it will do is let you leave. If the kiter is outside of point range say 25km to 80km, then the mmjd is still not going to allow you to get close enough to brawl as it will put you significantly beyond the kiter, allowing the kiter to continue kiting. Ofc if the mmjd is implemented then kiters will not be able to hold any cbc or bs on the field outside of scram range and if the kiter gets into scram range then he is within web range. Hence, its not just a nerf to kiting, rather kiting becomes no longer viable against cbc or bs. So as I see it, with the mmjd fights against bs or cbc must start at 0 or they dont start at all. We swing bats at each other until one of us goes down. And who loses is largely preordained because of the rock, paper, scissor nature of the game. All in all the mmjd is a big hit to the idea that eve is player "skilled" game. Seems you misquoted.. because you are sayign the same I did.
I guess I should have started with that it was my intention to underline that i was agreeing with you. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Gregor Parud
526
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 16:23:00 -
[687] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:[ It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is hilarious how you think you have a clue about kiting and small scale PVP.
I do, I'm just not a hyperboling biased hypocrite about it. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
77
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 16:53:00 -
[688] - Quote
Looking forward to bouncing off a mobile jump platform while spooling up mmjd. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5672
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 19:38:00 -
[689] - Quote
It simply come to pass that the "Rock" method now has a "Skipping Stone" option that may occasionally come into play.
Kitting vessels really should understand the value of long range scram capable team mates when facing adversaries that might be able to MJD away.
Getting kills when kiting depends on one of three things happening.
1: Your target is stupid and underestimates your damage, and does not warp away in time. 2: You have a longer point range (either disruptor or scram) than your target. 3: Your target does not have either the range or the tracking (or both) to deal effective damage to you at your chosen engagement range.
The odds of these things happening will change slightly now when dealing with BC's, just as they changed somewhat with BS before them. Somehow kiting has remained a viable option. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5672
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 19:40:00 -
[690] - Quote
It simply come to pass that the "Rock" method now has a "Skipping Stone" option that may occasionally come into play.
Kitting vessels really should understand the value of long range scram capable team mates when facing adversaries that might be able to MJD away.
Getting kills when kiting usually depends on one of three things happening.
1: Your target is stupid and underestimates your damage, and does not warp away in time. 2: You have a longer point range (either disruptor or scram) than your target. 3: Your target does not have either the range or the tracking (or both) to deal effective damage to you at your chosen engagement range.
The odds of these things happening will change slightly now when dealing with BC's, just as they changed somewhat with BS before them. Somehow kiting has remained a viable option. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
313
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 20:04:00 -
[691] - Quote
I struggle to understand the mindset of people who say things like "just include a scram ship in your team". Please help me out here, what do you envision the team of a smallgang pvp group to be? Because unless you're including logis/falcons etc you can't include scrams easily without hugely changing your target selection profile. I'll try to explain.
Say you have just one guy, you can put people in ships for control (like recons), tackle (like inties), logis, on grid links or damage. Now obviously control, tackle, logi etc are all completely useless, what you need to do is come up with some kind of all round damage ship fit and do the best you can but that means things like scrams are way out.
If you add a second guy you can now do something like one eaf and one damage ship but that ratio is kinda sucky, the control lets you be more aggressive but your damage is no higher, nor the endurance of your fleet. Logi would be wasted, tackle is kinda viable but more often than not you're just gonna want a second dude.
For a third I often opt for a control ship, fourth maybe damage again, fifth tackle, and so forth. The point being that while these ships are nice to have in a fleet when you're solo or in a pair you have to make hard decisions about how each ship changes your target selection and things like a scram frigate and a logi to keep it alive are simply luxuries that you can't have in your 3 man fleet. It's more important to get that extra damage to break the huginn in time before tackle gets on or to have a LML boat to serve on anti interceptor duty. More and more in this game you come across special things which can only be countered by X and if you don't have X in your fleet then you're dead (TD crows are a good example of this) and that is really squeezing smallgang. The larger the gang gets the less the opportunity cost for any given decision and the easier it is to say "yeah, just have X ship, it'll counter Y, np" but in really small gang or solo situations the fact that something has a theoretical counter is not practically useful.
What this comes down to is decreased utility on the warp disruptor which is, at present, mandatory for an awful lot of smallgang and solo pvp and a solution that relies on a larger gang is no solution. |
Gregor Parud
529
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 20:31:00 -
[692] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:I struggle to understand the mindset of people who say things like "you really should put a damage control on your Mackinaw". Please help me out here, what do you envision a mining ship to be?? Because unless you use a third MLU you're losing maximum yield.
Explain to me how your whining isn't exactly the same whining any (other) carebear utters when suddenly confronted with how they can't have it all their way. Remind me, what do we tell people like that again? Oh yeah; Adapt, deal with it and HTFU.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5673
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 20:55:00 -
[693] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:I struggle to understand the mindset of people who say things like "just include a scram ship in your team". Please help me out here, what do you envision the team of a smallgang pvp group to be? Because unless you're including logis/falcons etc you can't include scrams easily without hugely changing your target selection profile. I'll try to explain.
Say you have just one guy, you can put people in ships for control (like recons), tackle (like inties), logis, on grid links or damage. Now obviously control, tackle, logi etc are all completely useless, what you need to do is come up with some kind of all round damage ship fit and do the best you can but that means things like scrams are way out.
If you add a second guy you can now do something like one eaf and one damage ship but that ratio is kinda sucky, the control lets you be more aggressive but your damage is no higher, nor the endurance of your fleet. Logi would be wasted, tackle is kinda viable but more often than not you're just gonna want a second dude.
For a third I often opt for a control ship, fourth maybe damage again, fifth tackle, and so forth. The point being that while these ships are nice to have in a fleet when you're solo or in a pair you have to make hard decisions about how each ship changes your target selection and things like a scram frigate and a logi to keep it alive are simply luxuries that you can't have in your 3 man fleet. It's more important to get that extra damage to break the huginn in time before tackle gets on or to have a LML boat to serve on anti interceptor duty. More and more in this game you come across special things which can only be countered by X and if you don't have X in your fleet then you're dead (TD crows are a good example of this) and that is really squeezing smallgang. The larger the gang gets the less the opportunity cost for any given decision and the easier it is to say "yeah, just have X ship, it'll counter Y, np" but in really small gang or solo situations the fact that something has a theoretical counter is not practically useful.
What this comes down to is decreased utility on the warp disruptor which is, at present, mandatory for an awful lot of smallgang and solo pvp and a solution that relies on a larger gang is no solution. I really don't think anyone here should have to explain to a member of Clan Shadow Wolf how to build and run a small gang, let alone how to choose appropriate targets for the size and composition of his group.
If you feel you must be able to deal with MMJD BC's in the same fashion as other ships, you have options available. Gallante Recons in particular are ideally suited to the task and can be fitted out in a number of ways that add some interesting options to a small gang primarily outfitted for kiting attacks. And they are far from your only option.
Or you can simply do what most other people will do, in the unlikely event you run into a BC alone that you can't deal with because they have a MMJD on board, simply put them into the "non-viable target" category and move on. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 20:59:00 -
[694] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:[ It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is hilarious how you think you have a clue about kiting and small scale PVP. I do, I'm just not a hyperboling biased hypocrite about it.
# adjectives in a single sentence is not a hyperbole? Geez I wonder what will be a hyperbole for you. Fact is.. all the great small scaled PVPERs, or at least the vast majority from what i have seen and talked to agree with me. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 21:01:00 -
[695] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:It simply come to pass that the "Rock" method now has a "Skipping Stone" option that may occasionally come into play.
Kitting vessels really should understand the value of long range scram capable team mates when facing adversaries that might be able to MJD away.
Getting kills when kiting depends on one of three things happening.
1: Your target is stupid and underestimates your damage, and does not warp away in time. 2: You have a longer point range (either disruptor or scram) than your target. 3: Your target does not have either the range or the tracking (or both) to deal effective damage to you at your chosen engagement range.
The odds of these things happening will change slightly now when dealing with BC's, just as they changed somewhat with BS before them. Somehow kiting has remained a viable option.
The problem is not simply the specific change but the trend. Ignore now.. and soon we will have all cruisers with MJD.. than even destroyers...... Maybe cloak, warp bubble nullified T3s as well with MJD ? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5674
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 21:07:00 -
[696] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:It simply come to pass that the "Rock" method now has a "Skipping Stone" option that may occasionally come into play.
Kitting vessels really should understand the value of long range scram capable team mates when facing adversaries that might be able to MJD away.
Getting kills when kiting depends on one of three things happening.
1: Your target is stupid and underestimates your damage, and does not warp away in time. 2: You have a longer point range (either disruptor or scram) than your target. 3: Your target does not have either the range or the tracking (or both) to deal effective damage to you at your chosen engagement range.
The odds of these things happening will change slightly now when dealing with BC's, just as they changed somewhat with BS before them. Somehow kiting has remained a viable option. The problem is not simply the specific change but the trend. Ignore now.. and soon we will have all cruisers with MJD.. than even destroyers...... Maybe cloak, warp bubble nullified T3s as well with MJD ? Heh, well that last would be just a wee bit pointless.
I really don't like to waste time on worst case, what-if scenario's. They tend to be pointless.
If the mechanic becomes much more common, so will the availability of counter-measures... that's just how CCP roll.
Currently the option is only available to sub-capital ships that are on the lower end of the mobility spectrum. I find that to be a logical place to explore the possibilities and see how players will use and abuse the mechanic. They don't seem to be in any particular rush to extend the option to ships that have more mobility options yet. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Gregor Parud
530
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 21:18:00 -
[697] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:[ It's so hilarious seeing you trying to sound like you're doing this "for the good of the game" when you actually mean "fck, there'll be some targets my running away ship might not be able to kill without impunity". Your tears are better than the average whining carebear's.
It is hilarious how you think you have a clue about kiting and small scale PVP. I do, I'm just not a hyperboling biased hypocrite about it. # adjectives in a single sentence is not a hyperbole? Geez I wonder what will be a hyperbole for you. Fact is.. all the great small scaled PVPERs, or at least the vast majority from what i have seen and talked to agree with me.
What you mean to say is "all the small scale hypocrite PVPERS who suddenly are confronted with how they won't be having all their way anymore are scared shitless and are frantically trying to use any sort of :logic: why things should stay as they are". I solo PVP, actual solo, and I mostly kite because that's the only way to do it atm, Yes, with the changes I'll lose some targets, so what? Why should kiters have it all their way and why the FCK should kiting be the only viable strategy.
With this change kiters lose a few targets but at the same time people who want to solo another way, even if only once in a while, haver another option. Again; just because you figured out how kiting works you're not special, you're not amazing. You're just slightly better informed than the moronic masses... congratulations.
It still doesn't mean you should have it all your way and when stuff gets introduced that takes away some of the hilarious OPness, to bring some balance, you should act like crybaby carebears. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1141
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 21:44:00 -
[698] - Quote
OK, since there's a lot of Thorax-measuring going on here, I'll start with the disclaimer that I make no claims about my skills as a solo PVPer, or any other kind.
I just have a simple question: Given that I can fly Command Ships, why would I ever sit in a battleship if this goes live as is?
* Tank is as good or better on CS; * Range is as good on CS (I have a Vulture); * Mobility is better on CS, in all aspects; * DPS is comparable, at least outside of Incursion max-gank fits; * I can fit links to CS (not with max tank/gank--the point is that it's a more flexible hull); * Sig is lower; * Mass is lower, which matters because wormholes exist, and I live in one.
If you don't mind Command Ships completely eclipsing T1 battleships, then fine, let this go live. I'd prefer if you took Medalyn Isis' suggestion and made LMJDs go 125km, and MMJDs go 75km. That would provide enough differentiation that one hull type would not completely eclipse the other. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Draco Knight
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 22:00:00 -
[699] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: What you mean to say is "all the small scale hypocrite PVPERS who suddenly are confronted with how they won't be having all their way anymore are scared shitless and are frantically trying to use any sort of :logic: why things should stay as they are". I solo PVP, actual solo, and I mostly kite because that's the only way to do it atm, Yes, with the changes I'll lose some targets, so what? Why should kiters have it all their way and why the FCK should kiting be the only viable strategy.
With this change kiters lose a few targets but at the same time people who want to solo another way, even if only once in a while, haver another option. Again; just because you figured out how kiting works you're not special, you're not amazing. You're just slightly better informed than the moronic masses... congratulations.
It still doesn't mean you should have it all your way and when stuff gets introduced that takes away some of the hilarious OPness, to bring some balance, you should act like crybaby carebears.
I cannot take you seriously between the insults and name calling. |
Lilliana Stelles
1238
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 22:46:00 -
[700] - Quote
This module is mathematically impossible, lore breaking, and downright stupid.
A joule is a measure of Work. Watt is a measure of power. Power x Time = Work.
It is impossible to do any amount of work in a set amount of time unless you have a proportionally large amount of power.
The work of this module (activation cost) is 197 GIGA joules. 197 BILLION watt-seconds. That's an absurd amount of work. The power of this module is only 165 MEGA watts. An entire order of magnitude apart.
In order to pump enough power into this module to activate it, you'd have to power it continuously for 19.9 MINUTES. The modules cooldown needs to be 19 minutes, not <5. It's WAY off.
The large micro jump drive was still bull: (786 gigajoules) / (1375 megawatts) = 9.52727273 minutes
But at least it's not ludicrously off.
Halving the real-world time something takes is acceptable in an MMO. Games are sped up from reality after all.
but if the battleship MJD operates at a base of TWICE AS FAST AS REALITY, why does the battlecruiser operate at base cooldown of FOUR TIMES AS FAST AS REALITY. That's just nonsense.
In order to stay consistent, the cooldown needs to be at least doubled. Not a forum alt.-á |
|
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
655
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 22:52:00 -
[701] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:This module is mathematically impossible, lore breaking, and downright stupid.
A joule is a measure of Work. Watt is a measure of power. Power x Time = Work.
It is impossible to do any amount of work in a set amount of time unless you have a proportionally large amount of power.
The work of this module (activation cost) is 197 GIGA joules. 197 BILLION watt-seconds. That's an absurd amount of work. The power of this module is only 165 MEGA watts. An entire order of magnitude apart.
In order to pump enough power into this module to activate it, you'd have to power it continuously for 19.9 MINUTES. The modules cooldown needs to be 19 minutes, not <5. It's WAY off.
The large micro jump drive was still bull: (786 gigajoules) / (1375 megawatts) = 9.52727273 minutes
But at least it's not ludicrously off.
Halving the real-world time something takes is acceptable in an MMO. Games are sped up from reality after all.
but if the battleship MJD operates at a base of TWICE AS FAST AS REALITY, why does the battlecruiser operate at base cooldown of FOUR TIMES AS FAST AS REALITY. That's just nonsense.
In order to stay consistent, the cooldown needs to be at least doubled. You mean to tell me that there are things in eve that are unrealistic?
How dare you... |
Gregor Parud
531
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 23:11:00 -
[702] - Quote
Draco Knight wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: What you mean to say is "all the small scale hypocrite PVPERS who suddenly are confronted with how they won't be having all their way anymore are scared shitless and are frantically trying to use any sort of :logic: why things should stay as they are". I solo PVP, actual solo, and I mostly kite because that's the only way to do it atm, Yes, with the changes I'll lose some targets, so what? Why should kiters have it all their way and why the FCK should kiting be the only viable strategy.
With this change kiters lose a few targets but at the same time people who want to solo another way, even if only once in a while, haver another option. Again; just because you figured out how kiting works you're not special, you're not amazing. You're just slightly better informed than the moronic masses... congratulations.
It still doesn't mean you should have it all your way and when stuff gets introduced that takes away some of the hilarious OPness, to bring some balance, you should act like crybaby carebears.
I cannot take you seriously between the insults and name calling.
Why not, it's factual.
- edit -
AAAH, I just figured out why instead of actually commenting or discussing my statements you'd much rather try a different route. Careful, you might lose out on a drake kill! |
Firia O'Flame
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 00:18:00 -
[703] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:Hmm, and here I thought MJDs were designed as a BS niche, as a fix for their, uh, rather horrible mobility. Fozzie, does this mean you think BCs are in a similar situation as battleships were when the LMJD was introduced, or did you think they could just use another tool in the box?
I'd like to echo this. Like, I am DOWN for some MJD action, but it felt like it made the battleship an option on the battlefield. It used to be that the BC was the go-to of choice because you could be swarmed to easily in a BS with no maneuverability to escape. With the BS having access to MJD tech, it gave them options that put them back in the game. BC's have MWD that lets them attempt to catch an escaped BS.
However once BC's have access, things swing back to how they used to be; BC's being more viable and cheaper, where we see fewer BS's and their market demand is lower than before as just PVE mission/site ships. |
Gregor Parud
533
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 00:50:00 -
[704] - Quote
Firia O'Flame wrote:Kasutra wrote:Hmm, and here I thought MJDs were designed as a BS niche, as a fix for their, uh, rather horrible mobility. Fozzie, does this mean you think BCs are in a similar situation as battleships were when the LMJD was introduced, or did you think they could just use another tool in the box? I'd like to echo this. Like, I am DOWN for some MJD action, but it felt like it made the battleship an option on the battlefield. It used to be that the BC was the go-to of choice because you could be swarmed to easily in a BS with no maneuverability to escape. With the BS having access to MJD tech, it gave them options that put them back in the game. BC's have MWD that lets them attempt to catch an escaped BS. However once BC's have access, things swing back to how they used to be; BC's being more viable and cheaper, where we see fewer BS's and their market demand is lower than before as just PVE mission/site ships.
The CBC are in a low spot atm, partly because of the earlier slot/fitting/stat nerf they got , partly because of the mobility nerf they got and also because cruisers got buffed. Don't get me wrong, those CBC nerfs were NEEDED and we moved away from "Cane and Drake nuke everything" to "CBC? Uuuuhm lets use something else".
So now that they're toned down we can have a look at what direction they could be going, and instead of making them overall better (which would instantly make them compete with cruisers again, which the cruisers would lose) Fozzie decided that they'd go a different route. Partly because kiting is too powerful atm and we need some diversity in that regard, so CBC are now OK with being slower (which is what keeps them from being OP) while they have their own niche.
So in that regard the logic to use MJD on BS is exactly the same logic when it comes to CBC; they're too slow to be viable in solo/small gang PVP, completely outclassed by faster moving, good dps cruisers on steroids. So these will be for the brawler enthusiasts of which there aren't too many (because ppl love running away) so it's a niche that'll never really catch on or become some balance disrupting meta. Perhaps the Vulture might cause some trouble but it'll never be a major issue.
The problem starts to arise if Fozzie starts putting MJD on other ships like ABC, cruisers or even frigs. Those don't have mobility issues and as such don't need any help in that regard and I guess that's what has people spooked. "What if MJD starts to become standard equipment", and while that's a very valid concern it has nothing to do with giving CBC MJD. |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
348
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 00:51:00 -
[705] - Quote
To whom it may concern,
In the original post, there are a few comments made that I was hoping could be clarified.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive!
This module will begin restricted to Combat Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Deep Space Transports. We will consider expanding it to some other classes in the future but that is a discussion for after we've seen how they work out on these initial groups.
The MMJD uses the same Micro Jump Drive Operation skill as the LMJD and has the same range (100km), spool up (12s base reduced by the skill) and cooldown (3 minutes) as the Large version.
It has the following requirements: Powergrid: 165 CPU: 51 Capacitor: 197
We expect that these modules will be a very exciting option for battle cruisers in both fleets and small gangs.
Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
These modules will be on SISI for your testing pleasure soon. Let us know what you think!
The bold part is the area that concerns me the most.
It is stated that BCs have been overshadowed by BS's. How / Why do you think this is the case? BS are hardly used in the solo / small gang world, and BS are still superior to most ships in Nul fleets. In what area in particular is the BC supposed to outperform the BS? Why do you feel and MMJD will fix this problem, and in what situation do you see it being used?
I feel that BC's are overshadowed by cruisers and ABC's. The former is simply faster, with better projection- while the latter is faster, has much more DPS with greater projection. Both of these qualities will mean that a CBC will not be picked for anything small gang / solo related. It is not the BS that compete with CBC's for this role.
From my point of view there are many things wrong with the BCs, and all of their problems will not be fixed by the MJD.
The first issue is speed. BC's are just simply way to slow in today's super fast cruiser / small ship meta. The fact that BC's struggle to even get above 2k/s with MWD, nano and snakes- is simply unplayable. Battleships are around the same speed (many are faster) however the BS sport more utility with heavy neuts, larger tanks, and much greater projection / DPS- that make the BS a much better choice for a heavier nanoship.
The MMJD Does nothing to address this issue.
The Second issue is projection. BC's don't have any optimal or falloff bonuses. The only worthwhile longer range BC's are the navy Brutix and the Navy Drake. The drake is useless after the HML nerf, and the brutix is possibly playable with rails. however going rails, both the thorax and diemos provide much nicer platforms. Both are by a large margin faster.
The MMJD Does nothing to address this projection issue. Blinking 100K away is far away from the normal solo / small gang engagement range of 20/40K.
Now lets discuss the second part of that bolded statement is the use of MMJD's to provide 'interesting game play'. Again I would like to ask for some clarification to this statement. What exactly are you envisioning with MMJDs? A CBC is certainly not going to be catching a kiting ship with one, as most kiting ships are far withing 100K. Considering that no CBC can target out to 100K with base lockrange, even if you would warp ontop of a kiting ship- the chance that you could scram web it, after landing and locking is very low.
Are you envisioning CBC's jumping on top of sniper ships? Again if a ship is around 100+K Away, and is indeed a sniper they are again going to be hot aligned. The second the CBC lands close to them, they will be hitting warp. So the CBC would again lose out on a kill.
From what I have seen fighting against MJD battlships- the MJD is used in only one fashion- a GTFO button. It doesn't add any interesting game play, nor does it add thrilling choices, and it certainly doesn't add any offensive capability. What happens is the following.
1. Engage, battleships with kiting / longpoing small gang. 2. BS MJD and warps out in low armor. 3. Say, **** OUTPLAYED on team speak 4. ???????
CBC's need a rework, no doubt. However they need something more than this gimmicky MMJD mod. EVE deserves better, and there are many, many other more relevant ways of increasing the use of CBC's with out making long pointing, and small gang that much more difficult. Giving 48+ Ships the ability to have a GTFO button is not adding conflict or fun to EVE, it is removing it. |
Gregor Parud
533
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 01:01:00 -
[706] - Quote
Chessur wrote:The fact that BC's struggle to even get above 2k/s with MWD, nano and snakes- is simply unplayable
Let me highlight this sentence because it's the root of the confusion.
- if we'd get CBC doing high speed then they'd stomp allover cruisers again and we'd be back to square one, before the BC nerfs, where Drake and Cane pwn everything. We really don't want to go back to that, right now we have tons of funky ships being viable because CCP nuked effectively 2 ships. So giving them back speed and "overall performance" is pretty much the LAST thing we want.
- look at the CBC nerf; they're still viable but they lost mobility which means that they're aiming for a different strategy, other than kiting. This MJD idea reinforces that idea and strategy.
There's more strategies than kiting, right now they're not exactly viable because of kiting being too good so here's a few ships that use a different strategy, go have fun with them or ignore them. Up to you. |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
349
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 01:20:00 -
[707] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Chessur wrote:The fact that BC's struggle to even get above 2k/s with MWD, nano and snakes- is simply unplayable Let me highlight this sentence because it's the root of the confusion. - if we'd get CBC doing high speed then they'd stomp allover cruisers again and we'd be back to square one, before the BC nerfs, where Drake and Cane pwn everything. We really don't want to go back to that, right now we have tons of funky ships being viable because CCP nuked effectively 2 ships. So giving them back speed and "overall performance" is pretty much the LAST thing we want. - look at the CBC nerf; they're still viable but they lost mobility which means that they're aiming for a different strategy, other than kiting. This MJD idea reinforces that idea and strategy. There's more strategies than kiting, right now they're not exactly viable because of kiting being too good so here's a few ships that use a different strategy, go have fun with them or ignore them. Up to you.
No.
CBC's do less DPS and have less tanks than BS CBC"s have less projection and less speed than cruisers
There is no situation in which you want to have the CBC. You either take a crusier / ABC or a BS
What killed the cane and the drake of old, were not the nerfs. It was the introduction of ABC's and nothing more. ABC's killed the CBC's.
As for the speed increase- you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you made the CBCs faster, and changed nothing else, they would still be ****. ABC's do more DPS and project better, and the crusiers are easily faster. Nanod / linked / snaked Cruisers are going 4K+ A second. My vagabond heats close to 6K. No where did I say that a cane should be anywhere near that. Howver a BC going around 2K is unplayable in the current meta, matched with its **** poor projection and DPS- its not a ship worth flying.
Lastly, kiting is the only valid small gang / solo strategy.
With the advent of blobbing, risk aversiveness, EVM, and easy to get T1 logi- running a brawling fleet into enemy territory where they outnumber you in people, and ability to reship- is a really bad idea. News at 11.
Brawling is too risky of a strategy to use within the playerbase of Eve.
99% of people are horrible at this game, and simply don't understand PvP or any of the nuances. So instead they just spout off bullshit regarding their poorly conceived notion of kiting, through there ill conceived lens of poorly misunderstood game mechanics, and an attitude of HTFU mixed in with their air of self conceived superiority / knowledge. People kind of like you, need to spend more time reading and listening. And less time at their keyboards vomiting words onto the page. |
Gregor Parud
536
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 07:06:00 -
[708] - Quote
For all your high horse "look at me being special" you sure aren't capable of rational thinking outside your own play style and views, perhaps you should ask CCP for some pirate implants to try and solve that issue.
Let me break it down for you in short, simple sentences:
- some people aren't capable of using gang links - some people aren't willing to use gang links - some people enjoy, and take pride, in actual soloing - some people aren't scared shitless about their KD ratio - some people aren't risk averse to a point where it becomes autistic - some people want to fly brawlers - some people normally kite but would like to try something different once in a while - some people are kinda annoyed by how there is only one viable strategy, because that makes it boring - some people are annoyed by how hilariously broken kiting is - some people are fine with there being counters to the strategy they themselves use, because they're not low self esteem biased hypocrites but actually embrace balance - some people are capable of understanding that if you want to assess the impact of changes you need to do so using the situation created AFTER the changes, not try and shoehorn the changes into the current, then outdated, environment
CBC getting MJD wil NOT create a new meta, all that'll happen is that SOME people will fly them because they want to do something different while others, who are just lingering about, might not be the easy lol-targets they are right now. If you're really that scared about how you might have to adapt your gang setup a bit then that says more about you than about the changes.
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X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
317
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 07:50:00 -
[709] - Quote
How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community. |
Gregor Parud
537
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 08:15:00 -
[710] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community.
You have a choice, if someone actually has a counter to your "run away" strategy you could choose to attack him and hope he didn't fit MJD or perhaps it's on cool down OR it might be that you won't be able to hold and he might get away (this is of course not allowed, everyone is supposed to die to your superior kiting strategy, because of :reasons:) OR you bring someone along with a bonused scram (those do exist you know). 3 options, I hear EVE is about options and adapting to the situation, at least that's what fierce PVPers tell miners and ppl they gank.
How can anyone with an IQ over 85 seriously use "but it's just not fair that someone might actually have a counter to what I'm doing". Your whining is NO DIFFERENT from some high sec mining clown about how he shouldn't have to adapt to gankers. Perhaps you're more of a carebear than you're willing to admit to.
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Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 09:34:00 -
[711] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community.
Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 09:38:00 -
[712] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:
What you mean to say is "all the small scale hypocrite PVPERS who suddenly are confronted with how they won't be having all their way anymore are scared shitless and are frantically trying to use any sort of :logic: why things should stay as they are". I solo PVP, actual solo, and I mostly kite because that's the only way to do it atm, Yes, with the changes I'll lose some targets, so what? Why should kiters have it all their way and why the FCK should kiting be the only viable strategy.
With this change kiters lose a few targets but at the same time people who want to solo another way, even if only once in a while, haver another option. Again; just because you figured out how kiting works you're not special, you're not amazing. You're just slightly better informed than the moronic masses... congratulations.
It still doesn't mean you should have it all your way and when stuff gets introduced that takes away some of the hilarious OPness, to bring some balance, you should act like crybaby carebears.
I am in this game years enough and following this froum years enough that if you do not overrreact a bit then CCP never listen. It usually takes several dozen pages of amssively negative feedback and rage to ccp start to realize there are good arguments againt a change. For exampel We had to rage for 74 pages until they finnaly admited in the battleship rebalance that the temepst being slower and heavier than the apocalypse was indeed nonsense.
I dont need everythign In my way.. altough the game woudl be better if everything was by my way due to my superior intellect. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 09:53:00 -
[713] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community. Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links.
Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times.
Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win.
That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast.
Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more.
If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what.
At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Gregor Parud
537
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 09:59:00 -
[714] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community. Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links. Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times. Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win. That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast. Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more. If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what. At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend.
This is what I wrote on the previous page;
Quote:The problem starts to arise if Fozzie starts putting MJD on other ships like ABC, cruisers or even frigs. Those don't have mobility issues and as such don't need any help in that regard and I guess that's what has people spooked. "What if MJD starts to become standard equipment", and while that's a very valid concern it has nothing to do with giving CBC MJD.
WOULD that happen (and I doubt it will) then you "fight" for that in the "HACS get MMJD" thread, not in this one where MMJD are a logical choice for the slow/sluggish CBC.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 10:39:00 -
[715] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community. Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links. Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times. Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win. That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast. Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more. If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what. At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend. This is what I wrote on the previous page; Quote:The problem starts to arise if Fozzie starts putting MJD on other ships like ABC, cruisers or even frigs. Those don't have mobility issues and as such don't need any help in that regard and I guess that's what has people spooked. "What if MJD starts to become standard equipment", and while that's a very valid concern it has nothing to do with giving CBC MJD. WOULD that happen (and I doubt it will) then you "fight" for that in the "HACS get MMJD" thread, not in this one where MMJD are a logical choice for the slow/sluggish CBC.
History has proven that any manifestation after a feature thread has been created to be futile. You need to preemptively make them aware that it will be a bad idea. Specially since this current thread has a sentence saying they might expand for other classes in future. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
914
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 10:40:00 -
[716] - Quote
Big issue/concern seems to be that scrams is the only real counter which due to their range/viability will no be able to perform that function in most scenarios.
What if activation and general usage of MJD's was made dependant on cap? Example: 50% cap needed for activation and if it drops below during spool-up the cycle is aborted and counted as 'completed' (ie. without the jump taking place so has to wait for the three minutes before applicable again).
Void bombs to disrupt the MJD-flocks and neuts for specific/individual targets. |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
350
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 10:49:00 -
[717] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Poorly thought out personal attacks + Whining, + Words
Thank you for agreeing with me. Adding MMJD will not usher in a new CBC meta. News at 11. As I said before, it will change nothing other than make 48+ Ships now immune to long points, and have a GTFO button. You are saying that MMJD will not significantly change CBC's. No ****. That is what I have been saying. MMJD does nothing to fix the current CBC problem. It is simply a GTFO button, for a very underwhelming ship for the current PvP meta. MMJD's do nothing to address any of the issues CBC's face, and certainly doesn't help them combat kiting ships- just run away from them.
I have been advocating that CBC's receive a proper re work, not this joke of a fix through the use of a gimmicky mod. |
Gregor Parud
537
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 10:49:00 -
[718] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:History has proven that any manifestation after a feature thread has been created to be futile. You need to preemptively make them aware that it will be a bad idea. Specially since this current thread has a sentence saying they might expand for other classes in future.
So what, perhaps they find some other sluggish underperforming ship class that desperately needs some help but they don't want to give an overall buff and if that happens we'll discuss it there and then. And if it's a silly one like frigs or cruisers (of any kind) we'll fight against that side by side. But since Fozzie isn't a ****** I highly doubt it'll happen.
Right now people are just frantically trying to keep CBC to have a counter against their "superior" kiting strategy, using all kinds of :reasons: and :logic: (like the one you're using right now) that anyone who has any sort of intelligence easily sees through. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
369
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:00:00 -
[719] - Quote
In my opinion the introduction of the MMJD makes a lot of sense. Rationale: CCP is improving kiting strategies by introducing the new kiting optimized pirate ships a lot. There is a high risk that kiting will get the I-WIN button again. Therefore it is a good idea of CCP to introduce the MMJD as an opposing "maneuver" to kiting. If people start kiting too much and there will be everywhere kiting only fleets then people now have the chance to evade this by using (M)MJD.
Basically the rule of thumb will be: If you are kiting only, then you have to live with the fact that some people will just jump away... this gives a reason to come with a scram ship if you want sure kills... which on the other hand will expose you to lose something. Which is good.
In my opinion CCP should also introduce MMJD for Cruisers and a SMJD for Frigates and Destroyers. |
Gregor Parud
537
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:06:00 -
[720] - Quote
Chessur wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Poorly thought out personal attacks + Whining, + Words
Thank you for agreeing with me. Adding MMJD will not usher in a new CBC meta. News at 11. As I said before, it will change nothing other than make 48+ Ships now immune to long points, and have a GTFO button. You are saying that MMJD will not significantly change CBC's. No ****. That is what I have been saying. MMJD does nothing to fix the current CBC problem. It is simply a GTFO button, for a very underwhelming ship for the current PvP meta. MMJD's do nothing to address any of the issues CBC's face, and certainly doesn't help them combat kiting ships- just run away from them. I have been advocating that CBC's receive a proper re work, not this joke of a fix through the use of a gimmicky mod.
But it does, just not in your "must kite because I'm scared of my K:D as it's the only viable strategy" frame of thinking.
Why do I have to repeat basic logic each and every time?
- CBC can't kite, nor should they. If they could they're hilariously OP and we wouldn't want that would we... right? - CBC have been turned into a "defensive pvp strategy", they're not meant for active roaming aggressive PVP anymore. The initial BC nerfs, cruiser buffs and BC mobility nerf made sure of that. BECAUSE THAT'S THE UNDERLYING PLAN - CBC right now are in a difficult spot because "everyone" kites and they can't kill or even survive those kiters, so Fozzie introduces something that lowers kiting effectiveness against CBC
Just as kiters can force their will onto slower ships "you want to kill me, better catch me first!" CBC will be able to somewhat force their will onto faster ships "you want to kill me, better get close to me!" (the astute reader would probably realise that MJD is a form of kiting for slow ships, pot kettle etc). And by somewhat I mean CBC leave it up to the kiter; he can choose to attack, adapt or ignore that CBC completely. A CBC without MJD can NEVER ignore a kiter, he'll get killed by it. So stop whining.
So; MJD makes FULL SENSE on CBC because it turns brawling into a semi-viable strategy for people who aren't afraid to deal with situations where they may not have the upper hand, and they may not be 100% sure they'll win (you know, people who don't have low self esteem). TRUE soloers, happy to take on the odds knowing it'll probably go south but have a "lets see where this goes" frame of mind. Those do exist you know, granted there's not many because right now it's simply not viable by any stretch of the imagination, hence these changes (duh).
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:07:00 -
[721] - Quote
Chessur wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Poorly thought out personal attacks + Whining, + Words
Thank you for agreeing with me. Adding MMJD will not usher in a new CBC meta. News at 11. As I said before, it will change nothing other than make 48+ Ships now immune to long points, and have a GTFO button. You are saying that MMJD will not significantly change CBC's. No ****. That is what I have been saying. MMJD does nothing to fix the current CBC problem. It is simply a GTFO button, for a very underwhelming ship for the current PvP meta. MMJD's do nothing to address any of the issues CBC's face, and certainly doesn't help them combat kiting ships- just run away from them. I have been advocating that CBC's receive a proper re work, not this joke of a fix through the use of a gimmicky mod.
THAT.
BC will not be more combat effective with MJD (maybe except the poor long range ones), just GTFO more capable . Battleships have longer range and can use MJD in a more tactical way and less as a single GTFO system.
MJD are just making BC becoem one thing for a cruiser aressor. A Sure death if you get close to use a scram on a brutix or a sure do not bother because they will MJD away.
This thing will just make every single BC be a close range brawl fit monster with the MJD to makeit escape if the agressor does not want to play on its terms.
IS that a huge problem ? NO. but jsut points that NOTHIGN will improve with this change except cheesy corner situations.
BC deserve a more well tought fix than mimic the former exclusive reason to use a BS.
This change just open the gates for a huge possible bullshit in future ( and I cannot stress that I am too burned to not believe it will happen), removes the main motivation to use a battleship and helps in nothing to a BC to fight kiters, in fact will jsut make kiter vs bc fights not happen anymore, something that just benefit carebear BC pilots.
Maybe with some adjustments? Reduce Batleships MJD reuse timer to 2 min and increase BC to 4 min. Now Battleships still have the upperhand on this department.
and or..
make BC MJD use a fixed percentage of their capacitor, like 50%. This would make possible to tackle a BC with heavy neuts (because come on... don't even dare to say battleships should start fielding scrams when they are not vindicators). "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Gregor Parud
537
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:12:00 -
[722] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Chessur wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Poorly thought out personal attacks + Whining, + Words
Thank you for agreeing with me. Adding MMJD will not usher in a new CBC meta. News at 11. As I said before, it will change nothing other than make 48+ Ships now immune to long points, and have a GTFO button. You are saying that MMJD will not significantly change CBC's. No ****. That is what I have been saying. MMJD does nothing to fix the current CBC problem. It is simply a GTFO button, for a very underwhelming ship for the current PvP meta. MMJD's do nothing to address any of the issues CBC's face, and certainly doesn't help them combat kiting ships- just run away from them. I have been advocating that CBC's receive a proper re work, not this joke of a fix through the use of a gimmicky mod. THAT. BC will not be more combat effective with MJD (maybe except the poor long range ones), just GTFO more capable . Battleships have longer range and can use MJD in a more tactical way and less as a single GTFO system. MJD are just making BC becoem one thing for a cruiser aressor. A Sure death if you get close to use a scram on a brutix or a sure do not bother because they will MJD away. This thing will just make every single BC be a close range brawl fit monster with the MJD to makeit escape if the agressor does not want to play on its terms. IS that a huge problem ? NO. but jsut points that NOTHIGN will improve with this change except cheesy corner situations. BC deserve a more well tought fix than mimic the former exclusive reason to use a BS. This change just open the gates for a huge possible bullshit in future ( and I cannot stress that I am too burned to not believe it will happen), removes the main motivation to use a battleship and helps in nothing to a BC to fight kiters, in fact will jsut make kiter vs bc fights not happen anymore, something that just benefit carebear BC pilots. Maybe with some adjustments? Reduce Batleships MJD reuse timer to 2 min and increase BC to 4 min. Now Battleships still have the upperhand on this department. and or.. make BC MJD use a fixed percentage of their capacitor, like 50%. This would make possible to tackle a BC with heavy neuts (because come on... don't even dare to say battleships should start fielding scrams when they are not vindicators).
hilarious hyperbole and bullshit, per usual.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:13:00 -
[723] - Quote
Meditril wrote:In my opinion the introduction of the MMJD makes a lot of sense. Rationale: CCP is improving kiting strategies by introducing the new kiting optimized pirate ships a lot. There is a high risk that kiting will get the I-WIN button again. Therefore it is a good idea of CCP to introduce the MMJD as an opposing "maneuver" to kiting. If people start kiting too much and there will be everywhere kiting only fleets then people now have the chance to evade this by using (M)MJD.
Basically the rule of thumb will be: If you are kiting only, then you have to live with the fact that some people will just jump away... this gives a reason to come with a scram ship if you want sure kills... which on the other hand will expose you to lose something. Which is good.
In my opinion CCP should also introduce MMJD for Cruisers and a SMJD for Frigates and Destroyers.
Kiting wil ALWAYS be here. Know why? Because the game lacks ANY possible tactical depth to allow a smaller number of ships defeat a larger number of ships. CCP constantly nerf any force multipliers.
When I started in this game. Was common for a tempest to have a multispec ECM. Was common for domis to have 2 damps. They nerf everythign that can be used to allow smaller and more skilled groups to defeat larger groups. EVERYTHING but remote repair. Up to the point you get sick of guardians everywhere and the only other option is to KITE.
Kitters are not people avoiding to lose things because they are afraid. Kiters are exaclty the players that have BALLS but with brains. That want to fight against larger number of enemies (because if you want to have fights in this game you need to present yourself in a disadvantage otherwise no one ever undocks).
If you cannot kill a kiter when you have 3:! numeric advantage it is your OWN DAMM FAULT! Why in hell hese peopel that complain so much of kiters brign a 20 person fleet to fight 3 kiters and bring NOT A SINGLE RAPIER?
BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID and want to not have to use their brains. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1388
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:14:00 -
[724] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Chessur wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Poorly thought out personal attacks + Whining, + Words
Thank you for agreeing with me. Adding MMJD will not usher in a new CBC meta. News at 11. As I said before, it will change nothing other than make 48+ Ships now immune to long points, and have a GTFO button. You are saying that MMJD will not significantly change CBC's. No ****. That is what I have been saying. MMJD does nothing to fix the current CBC problem. It is simply a GTFO button, for a very underwhelming ship for the current PvP meta. MMJD's do nothing to address any of the issues CBC's face, and certainly doesn't help them combat kiting ships- just run away from them. I have been advocating that CBC's receive a proper re work, not this joke of a fix through the use of a gimmicky mod. THAT. BC will not be more combat effective with MJD (maybe except the poor long range ones), just GTFO more capable . Battleships have longer range and can use MJD in a more tactical way and less as a single GTFO system. MJD are just making BC becoem one thing for a cruiser aressor. A Sure death if you get close to use a scram on a brutix or a sure do not bother because they will MJD away. This thing will just make every single BC be a close range brawl fit monster with the MJD to makeit escape if the agressor does not want to play on its terms. IS that a huge problem ? NO. but jsut points that NOTHIGN will improve with this change except cheesy corner situations. BC deserve a more well tought fix than mimic the former exclusive reason to use a BS. This change just open the gates for a huge possible bullshit in future ( and I cannot stress that I am too burned to not believe it will happen), removes the main motivation to use a battleship and helps in nothing to a BC to fight kiters, in fact will jsut make kiter vs bc fights not happen anymore, something that just benefit carebear BC pilots. Maybe with some adjustments? Reduce Batleships MJD reuse timer to 2 min and increase BC to 4 min. Now Battleships still have the upperhand on this department. and or.. make BC MJD use a fixed percentage of their capacitor, like 50%. This would make possible to tackle a BC with heavy neuts (because come on... don't even dare to say battleships should start fielding scrams when they are not vindicators). hilarious hyperbole and bullshit, per usual.
Seems you need to learn the difference between well tought and bullshit. You have it clearly inverted. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Gregor Parud
537
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:18:00 -
[725] - Quote
So far I haven't seen any well thought out logic or reasoning from you other than "DOOM, GLOOM, CTHULHU WTF".
You even disqualify your own statements by stating that some stat changes on MJD might fix the "problems".
nice edit;
It's always a good sign when people suddenly stop discussing the subject and start pulling the character card. It means they ran out of arguments and (better yet) they even realise it themselves. Thanks for playing. |
Lug Muad'Dib
Wise Humans Sword
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:22:00 -
[726] - Quote
Teleportation module in EvE..
Make cruiser class one and i'll search a new no heroic fantasy pvp mmo |
MaraudR73
V0LTA Triumvirate.
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:48:00 -
[727] - Quote
There is not enough rage in this forum for CCP to change their minds. (Like the Freighter Changes) CCP is just gonna push this through, and small kiting gangs and the warp disruptor are getting nerfed.
But I surely hope that they will make the range on the MMJD a little less the the LMJD. 75km on the MMJD would be better.
|
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 15:36:00 -
[728] - Quote
[/quote]
History has proven that any manifestation after a feature thread has been created to be futile. You need to preemptively make them aware that it will be a bad idea. Specially since this current thread has a sentence saying they might expand for other classes in future.[/quote]
Yea. Now that they said they going to introduce these, it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that they will be implemented no matter how bad the idea. Best that can be hoped is to stop the bleeding. Hopefully enough people complain and this magic ring of teleportation will be limited to cbc and dts.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
X4me1eoH
Revenge of the Liquidators The Marmite Collective
149
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 16:29:00 -
[729] - Quote
Sorry for my bad english =) but I want say my thinks about new MJD's Nano= all long ships, or ships with good speed, use disruptors. Close= all close range braulers, with good dps and tank, but low speed, use scrablers.
NOW SITUATION
nano vs close 1v1
in space if nano get in scram range then -nano die, else close die
near gate/station if nano get in scram range then -nano die, else close deagro and dockin\jumpin gate
nano vs gang if nano get in scram range, then - nano die, else have chance kill anybody
close vs gang no chance if you dont have more tank then his dps
close gang vs nano gang no fight or nano win
pvper vs pver pver have chance see pvper in local, and have time to warp out, or when pvper warp in, die
AFTER NEW MJD
nano vs close 1v1 if nano get in scram range then -nano die, else close warp out
near gate/station if nano get in scram range then -nano die, else close deagro and dockin\jumpin gate or warp out
nano vs gang if nano get in scram range, then - nano die, else close warp out
close vs gang no chance if you dont have more tank then his dps, or can kill scramblers and warp out
close gang vs nano gang If close gang get close range, then nanogang die, else close gang warp out
pvper vs pver pver have chance see pvper in local, and can warp out, if pvper warp in, not in scram range, or have only disruptor
I'f you see, in all situation not in scram range, new BC's can warp out. I think it very disbalansed, and remind "I WIN' button. With new module, it has only warp out module, for escape from battle. I think it need be attack module, with small chance to escape use.
I HAVE OFFER: remove warp blink 100km make warp blink to module in 20-30km, to have chance get close to nano targets, but it get hard chance to warp out (or perfectly use scrypts: 1)warp blink at 20-30km, immune bubble, imunne disruptor 2)warp blink at 100km, imunne or bubble or dirpuptor, but not both in 1 time, need think.) change activation time to 9-10 sec (and 4-5 with perfect skills) (get chance blink faster to nano targets, but nano targets have some seconds to see it, and get longer) |
Gregor Parud
540
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 17:37:00 -
[730] - Quote
"If I mess up in my superior strategy kiting ship I will die, because of that MJD is OP (and lets forget about how that generally doesn't happen lol)" |
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2767
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 17:43:00 -
[731] - Quote
X4me1eoH wrote: I'f you see, in all situation not in scram range, new BC's can warp out. I think it very disbalansed, and remind "I WIN' button.
If you see, in all situation not in scram range, existing fast kiter can warp out. I think it very disbalanced, and remind "I WIN' button. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 20:05:00 -
[732] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:If you cannot kill a kiter when you have 3:! numeric advantage it is your OWN DAMM FAULT! Why in hell hese peopel that complain so much of kiters brign a 20 person fleet to fight 3 kiters and bring NOT A SINGLE RAPIER?
BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID and want to not have to use their brains.
So apparently that's their fault, but you not bringing ONE pilot with a scram for a slow, telegraphed event every THREE minutes is somehow not yours?
You have a severe self entitlement issue there. |
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
69
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 20:16:00 -
[733] - Quote
Hey CCP features and ideas!
What about making MJDs script-able?
Reduce them to about 75% of their current attributes (distance, cooldown, spool?), and then add scripts to increase them all to current levels, or reduce them to 50% of their current levels. Or just two of the variables and leave the third at a set amount?
Balance as you see fit, of course. I like the idea of more options for this module. It also adds uncertainty when you see that pretty spool-up effect. I can kill you with my brain too. It's genetic.
Please, for the love of the whatever you hold dear, stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".-á It is "uh-bad-in" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abaddon |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2768
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 20:51:00 -
[734] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:If you cannot kill a kiter when you have 3:! numeric advantage it is your OWN DAMM FAULT! Why in hell hese peopel that complain so much of kiters brign a 20 person fleet to fight 3 kiters and bring NOT A SINGLE RAPIER?
BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID and want to not have to use their brains. So apparently that's their fault, but you not bringing ONE pilot with a scram for a slow, telegraphed event every THREE minutes is somehow not yours? You have a severe self entitlement issue there.
lel Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
18
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 06:05:00 -
[735] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community. Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links. Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times. Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win. That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast. Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more. If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what. At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend.
Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.
But why would you have to stay tackled if the local spikes? Disengage. Again, the skills issue.
Scram is actually the best counter to kiters, which by itself makes it viable in many situations. Again, you need skill to get into scram range of a typical linked "solo" kiter.
Flying a ship with scram requires not only skills, but balls (this concept may be unknown to hisec people) since you actually risk your ship, and aren't guaranteed a clean exit based on your fit like when kiting. Now when a module that does not guarantee a clean exit on some ships is introduced, you claim this hurts PVP?
Anyway, the whining of these risk-averse retards drowns the real issue- MMJD range is too long to make it an interesting module to fit on CBCs. Short range of CBCs marginalizes this module instead of making it a tactical choice, CCP pleas make it 50km. It would still make the retards butthurt, but also make solo CBCs a bit more viable in the current meta.
|
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
20494
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 11:12:00 -
[736] - Quote
Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
I like to gank it, gank it!
|
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 12:47:00 -
[737] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community. Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links. Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times. Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win. That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast. Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more. If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what. At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend. Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate. But why would you have to stay tackled if the local spikes? Disengage. Again, the skills issue. Scram is actually the best counter to kiters, which by itself makes it viable in many situations. Again, you need skill to get into scram range of a typical linked "solo" kiter. Flying a ship with scram requires not only skills, but balls (this concept may be unknown to hisec people) since you actually risk your ship, and aren't guaranteed a clean exit based on your fit like when kiting. Now when a module that does not guarantee a clean exit on some ships is introduced, you claim this hurts PVP? Anyway, the whining of these risk-averse pilots drowns the real issue- MMJD range is too long to make it an interesting module to fit on CBCs. Short range of CBCs marginalizes this module instead of making it a tactical choice, CCP pleas make it 50km. It would still make the whiners butthurt, but also make solo CBCs a bit more viable in the current meta.
50k is still too long. If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Gregor Parud
542
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 13:05:00 -
[738] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:X ATM092 wrote:How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup" I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.
No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community. Scrams are perfectly viable and relevant for solo and small gang. However using them may require piloting skills and tactics, which some people may not have, relying instead on rock/paper/scissors level pvp boosted by off-grid links. Scrams are NOT viable solo on the absolute majority of scenario, irrelevant of your skills. IF you stay in scram range you are completely vulnerable to the trap blob that will be there waiting for you to engage the target 8 of 10 times. Getting into scram range alone is incredibly risky. Not normal risky.. but in suicidal risky... People that make suicidal things are NOT good, no matter how they think they are. These people are more lucky then good if they win. That means using a scram is only viable on a very easy fight that you know you gonna win very fast. Again , the problem is not the very change, its the trend presented here, that CCP wants to add ways to reduce the viability of solo and very small gang (2 people) PVP even more. If we dont stand up, soon they will add these things to T3... then to HACs, then to god knows what. At this point why not just make ALL shisp have built in warp core strneght of 8? Since the only way PVP should happen is with a blob with this trend. Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate. But why would you have to stay tackled if the local spikes? Disengage. Again, the skills issue. Scram is actually the best counter to kiters, which by itself makes it viable in many situations. Again, you need skill to get into scram range of a typical linked "solo" kiter. Flying a ship with scram requires not only skills, but balls (this concept may be unknown to hisec people) since you actually risk your ship, and aren't guaranteed a clean exit based on your fit like when kiting. Now when a module that does not guarantee a clean exit on some ships is introduced, you claim this hurts PVP? Anyway, the whining of these risk-averse pilots drowns the real issue- MMJD range is too long to make it an interesting module to fit on CBCs. Short range of CBCs marginalizes this module instead of making it a tactical choice, CCP pleas make it 50km. It would still make the whiners butthurt, but also make solo CBCs a bit more viable in the current meta. 50k is still too long. If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card.
You're so obvious it's funny.
|
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 15:50:00 -
[739] - Quote
Hello CCP, sry for my Eng, I`m from Ru community and would like to convey to you an overall assessment of Ru PvP pilots from eve-ru forum. There are several things that cause issues, maybe they were previously announced here, forgive, if so =)
I want see on problems with MMJD from two different positions: 1st-solo PvP, 2nd-roaming fleet PvP.
1st position: -If I kite ship with warpdis (Cynabal, Vagabond, NOmen etc.) I can`t tackle close BC in open space (out of gates and stations), because he can jump out. I think you break this balance between close range ships (big DPS and tank, but slow and can`t way out if open cyno, because it`s scram range) and kite ships (low DPS, low tank, but big speed and warp dis range). But if I kite ship, I`m very bad kill close BC, because he has a lot of tank and he too can damage me, but if we near gate or station he can go into station or gate from me. I have a big problems on kite ship with killing BC now, after MMJD I can`t kill BC never. - If I`m on big tank and big DPS ship (scram range), then there is no sense of MMJD (scram range). That is, such actions you enter imbalance between ships with warp dis and warp scram, but it does not give any opportunity BC to attack the kiter, just to get away, too little sense.
2nd position: -Our gang (close range crusers (Augoror Navy)) camp in null gate with Sabre, passes to us gang of MMJD Ferox, 90% Ferox`s jump out and work on your`s optimals, we approch to-> and 50% pilots die, but wen we be near (20km) they are again jump out. There are no adequate ways to not let them go. -About Attack BC, I think you understand that if you give MMJD them it was a realy BIG BIG BIG problem for all fleet formats, we`ll all fly on Naga... again. And this format have no counter mearse, NO -BC is hot BS, and it big difference. BC have low price, low SP and very very mass ship. But on BS LMJD too imbalance, but you have not noticed, because by BS do not fly roam fleets, only CTA fleet.
So, I see 3 problems with it and way out from it:
1st:eed to somehow give solo pilots disable MMJD without going into scram range (faction warp dis can disabled MMJD) or give jump range <50km or give big couldawn (100-150% bonus from LMJD) for MMJD.
2nd: Interdiction probe, interdiction sphere/beam disabled MMJD (and maybe LMJD too), I think this is true with respect to the role of these ships, because they loose your role in fleet.
3nd: Warp dis from interceptor disabled all MJD (now BS on anomalies can jump out, and nullifire don`t help interceptors when you balance them). But you must change nullifire bonus to warp dis bonus (warp dis disabled all MJD).
PS: Better way it`s give MMJD only for Transports, so no need to find a balance with this OMG MJD that can not be found <75%
|
Colman Dietmar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 17:20:00 -
[740] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card.
I'd like to see something like that, maybe also on cruisers, but the cooldown and activation time would both need to be much shorter.
But I also like the 100km MJD, so wouldn't mind having two different kinds. |
|
CW Itovuo
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
29
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 00:18:00 -
[741] - Quote
Skip Drive: consider making the jump distance a RANDOM amount, rather than fixed.
It can either save your bacon, or put you into the frying pan.
|
Gregor Parud
543
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 08:19:00 -
[742] - Quote
Colman Dietmar wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:If ccp is hell bent on adding a ring of teleportation to the game for cbc then it should be limited to 20-30km. That way you get the option of teleporting right into the kiter without it being an automatic gtfo card. I'd like to see something like that, maybe also on cruisers, but the cooldown and activation time would both need to be much shorter. But I also like the 100km MJD, so wouldn't mind having two different kinds.
The reason for MJD is to give slow/sluggish ships a strategy to at least have a chance against kiters. Ships that ARE fast don't need this module are would become severely OP if they'd get it so frigates and cruisers should never get this module.
|
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
490
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 17:55:00 -
[743] - Quote
Quote:Ships that ARE fast don't need this module are would become severely OP if they'd get it so frigates and cruisers should never get this module.
Heavy brawling cruisers aren't much faster than battlecruisers in some cases. Granted, CCP should probably do something about the pants-on-head ******** nature of the current within class dichotomy between brawlers and kiters rather than just slap an MJD on everything and call it a day, but it's not just CBCs that have an issue. |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 21:16:00 -
[744] - Quote
It is my opinion that this may actually help bring the rail ferox back into vogue. Since rail naga is out for mjd, it stands to reason that this would benefit the ferox immensely and help distinguish it from the naga more. |
Rasta we
The Red Island Foundation Vanguard.
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 08:06:00 -
[745] - Quote
This Game has already become a carebear fest.
Please, for the love of all that is great, Stop putting in escape tactics into the game!
Warp mechanics make it almost impossible to catch someone who's got a heart beat in anything other then a interceptor.
Now your gonna make it a requirement for that interceptor to need a Web AND a scram to actually catch anything it has a chance of catching?
How about this situation that i see daily..
Pray warps into mission.. MJD's.. shoots.. then MJD's again. Hostile comes in.. scans him down.. warps to his mission.. and the guy is 300km away.
Or how about this, Someone afk ratting in a belt of 20.. You jump in, start D-scan and find them within seconds.. warp to his location. Just as you land he MJD's.. lands at full speed then warps.
These tactics are ruining the game for everyone other then farmers and cearbears. What about the people who like small scale roams and solo engagements? You can only really catch anything these days on a gate, and if your alone or in a small group.. they simply burn back to gate and split your force.. or cause you to do the stupid Stargate waiting game..
Also, please get rid of the interdiction bubbles that don't stop anything already initiating warp..
i think it's crazy that all a pilot has to do it click "warp" before i light my bubble before it'll catch him. again.. another mechanic designed to enable farmers and hate on anyone that actually takes part in PvP
Back in my day we actually used pilot skill to disengage and escape.. Whats the problem with keeping it like that?
|
ORLICZ
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 08:23:00 -
[746] - Quote
Rasta we wrote:This Game has already become a carebear fest. Please, for the love of all that is great, Stop putting in escape tactics into the game! Warp mechanics make it almost impossible to catch someone who's got a heart beat in anything other then a interceptor. Now your gonna make it a requirement for that interceptor to need a Web AND a scram to actually catch anything it has a chance of catching? How about this situation that i see daily.. Pray warps into mission.. MJD's.. shoots.. then MJD's again. Hostile comes in.. scans him down.. warps to his mission.. and the guy is 300km away. Or how about this, Someone afk ratting in a belt of 20.. You jump in, start D-scan and find them within seconds.. warp to his location. Just as you land he MJD's.. lands at full speed then warps. These tactics are ruining the game for everyone other then farmers and cearbears. What about the people who like small scale roams and solo engagements? You can only really catch anything these days on a gate, and if your alone or in a small group.. they simply burn back to gate and split your force.. or cause you to do the stupid Stargate waiting game.. Also, please get rid of the interdiction bubbles that don't stop anything already initiating warp.. i think it's crazy that all a pilot has to do it click "warp" before i light my bubble before it'll catch him. again.. another mechanic designed to enable farmers and hate on anyone that actually takes part in PvP Back in my day we actually used pilot skill to disengage and escape.. Whats the problem with keeping it like that?
this! we want more fun, more adrenaline
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1391
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 09:41:00 -
[747] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:If you cannot kill a kiter when you have 3:! numeric advantage it is your OWN DAMM FAULT! Why in hell hese peopel that complain so much of kiters brign a 20 person fleet to fight 3 kiters and bring NOT A SINGLE RAPIER?
BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID and want to not have to use their brains. So apparently that's their fault, but you not bringing ONE pilot with a scram for a slow, telegraphed event every THREE minutes is somehow not yours? You have a severe self entitlement issue there.
How can you brin g an extra pilot and keep it SOLO? Didyou even read the thread? This change changes NOTHIGN for larger groups combat. But it is massively detrimental to solo and pair pvp. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1391
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 09:45:00 -
[748] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote: Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.
YTES they are! BEcause peopel KNOW us and do never engage us without 5:1 advantage! The only way we can have FIGHTs (and on this ia m not countign stalking and ganking a mission runner, but real fights) is presentign us with a massive numerican disadvantage. And when we do that the ONLY way to apply skill in this game is range control and forcing the enemy gang toseparate.
That is why forcign everythign into brwaling is stupid. Brawling has ZERO space for pilot skills. Brawling is approach and FIRE and spam neeed armor on fleet channel.
Combat must include MORE mobility, MORE kiting not less. COmbat must prize the inteligence, not press aproach and F1.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1391
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 09:59:00 -
[749] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:So far I haven't seen any well thought out logic or reasoning from you other than "DOOM, GLOOM, CTHULHU WTF".
You even disqualify your own statements by stating that some stat changes on MJD might fix the "problems".
nice edit;
It's always a good sign when people suddenly stop discussing the subject and start pulling the character card. It means they ran out of arguments and (better yet) they even realise it themselves. Thanks for playing.
Nope. I am just disqualify YOUR ARGUMENT. Since as long as you post with a NPC corp character you can be very well someone that NEVER participated in ANY PVP, and have no clue on your statements (altough almost everythign else you post already support that). Youcould be just a carebear.
Want your arguments to be takesn seriously? Shyow your face. Show why we shoudl believe you know what you are saying.
We had several posts from groups very well known for small scale high level PVP, basically all against your opinion.
The character card is not because someone does not have more arguments. It is because we noticed that is futile to discuss with someone that have given us zero reasons to take him seriously. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Egravant Alduin
republic fleet battle support
142
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 10:00:00 -
[750] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100. Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight.
Agree.Battleships should have an advanatage and now they won t have it.Hi Niko
|
|
Syd Unknown
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 11:09:00 -
[751] - Quote
Egravant Alduin wrote:Niko Lorenzio wrote:Kinda negates the advantage of the battleships though no? I would cut the spool up, cooldown and range of the Medium MJD by 25%. i.e. jump to 75km instead of 100. Also considering those medium ships usually have shorter range than battleships, 75km might be more useful except in cases of catching battleships or escaping from a fight. Agree.Battleships should have an advanatage and now they won t have it.Hi Niko
YES, if CCP pushes this awful MMJD through, they should at least make the range a bit shorter then the Large MJD. And I agree 75km would be a better fit for the Battlecruisers.
+1 |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
19
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 11:52:00 -
[752] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.
YTES they are! BEcause peopel KNOW us and do never engage us without 5:1 advantage! The only way we can have FIGHTs (and on this ia m not countign stalking and ganking a mission runner, but real fights) is presentign us with a massive numerican disadvantage. And when we do that the ONLY way to apply skill in this game is range control and forcing the enemy gang toseparate. That is why forcign everythign into brwaling is stupid. Brawling has ZERO space for pilot skills. Brawling is approach and FIRE and spam neeed armor on fleet channel. Combat must include MORE mobility, MORE kiting not less. COmbat must prize the inteligence, not press aproach and F1.
Much rage and hyperbole? I've never heard of you or your corp and I sincerely doubt anyone else would know you either. And even if you were from a known PVP corp, your argument still wouldn't hold true. Nobody blobs anyone just because they are from a certain corp.
Your understanding of competent brawling appears flawed, approach & F1 works only in very limited situations where the outcome was pretty much decided on the fitting screen. This is exactly the same as in easy kiting fights- press orbit and F1. However, most engagements require the same piloting skills: manual flying, target prioritising, module micromanagement (active tanking is much more prominent in brawling than kiting), knowing when to disengage and having the skills required to accomplish that.
I have a few thousand solo and small gang kills across my characters, and I've flown both kiting and brawling set ups across all the ship classes (well ok, never flown the only kiting bs) and I honestly can't agree with your "intelligence and skills" argument favouring kiting. They are simply different methods, each with their strengths and right times and places. |
Shivanthar
Ace's and Eight's Brothers of Tangra
90
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 13:22:00 -
[753] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Draco Knight wrote:On grid teleporting is the worst idea ever conceived PERIOD. No, the ability to move massive amounts of material or capitol ships immense distances in the blink of an eye was the worst idea ever. The ability to chose to be able to tactically reposition on grid every 3 minutes (give or take) as a fitting option is a complex option to balance properly, but not necessarily a bad idea. Both are complex options to balance properly. I'm arguing at least that battleships being given this option was a really good idea and has worked somewhat to make them more popular. Extending this option to lower classes of ships will just move battleships back into obscurity.
Exactly my point of view. While Han Solo was shitting his pants while escaping from imperial battleship, eve frigate pilots are feeling safe around BS because they're "under guns". BS's are something that must be feared from, at least RP perspective. Where are my flaks! Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. |
Mike Whiite
Space Mutts The Harlequin's
354
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 14:12:00 -
[754] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Draco Knight wrote:On grid teleporting is the worst idea ever conceived PERIOD. No, the ability to move massive amounts of material or capitol ships immense distances in the blink of an eye was the worst idea ever. The ability to chose to be able to tactically reposition on grid every 3 minutes (give or take) as a fitting option is a complex option to balance properly, but not necessarily a bad idea. Both are complex options to balance properly. I'm arguing at least that battleships being given this option was a really good idea and has worked somewhat to make them more popular. Extending this option to lower classes of ships will just move battleships back into obscurity. Exactly my point of view. While Han Solo was shitting his pants while escaping from imperial battleship, eve frigate pilots are feeling safe around BS because they're "under guns". BS's are something that must be feared from, at least RP perspective. Where are my flaks!
I understand the need for smaller ships to be able to fly under the guns and missiles of Battles ships game wise.
though what I don't understand is the ease in which battles ships are tackled/webbed/jammed/ dampned, and the insane locking times Battleships have.
Battleships should not be rendered helpless by a single frigate so to speak
I think to make Battleships more interesting without, making smaller ships useless should come from E-war resistance.
this could be done by either giving E-war sizes like weapons, or by making them use more powergrid depending on the ships mass.
aside from that removing the extreme differences on the locking time between frigates and battleships should be one of the first steps.
|
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum New Eden's Misfits Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 17:45:00 -
[755] - Quote
Bad Idea in My opinion, Large Micro Jump drives made taking on battleships 10x more difficult, especially the ones designed to fight up close as is.
Then you introduced the Mobile Micro Jump units, which allow almost everything to jump away from a fight, making the long point even more uselss
Now these? Your just making it impossible to catch and kill anything anymore, might as well delete the long point entirely at this point when these go live Beware what lurks in the shadows, just because you can't see me doesn't mean i can't see you.. ~The Art of Stealth Warfare |
Kane Fenris
NWP
150
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 08:30:00 -
[756] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.
YTES they are! BEcause peopel KNOW us and do never engage us without 5:1 advantage! The only way we can have FIGHTs (and on this ia m not countign stalking and ganking a mission runner, but real fights) is presentign us with a massive numerican disadvantage. And when we do that the ONLY way to apply skill in this game is range control and forcing the enemy gang toseparate. That is why forcign everythign into brwaling is stupid. Brawling has ZERO space for pilot skills. Brawling is approach and FIRE and spam neeed armor on fleet channel. Combat must include MORE mobility, MORE kiting not less. COmbat must prize the inteligence, not press aproach and F1. Much rage and hyperbole? I've never heard of you or your corp and I sincerely doubt anyone else would know you either. And even if you were from a known PVP corp, your argument still wouldn't hold true. Nobody blobs anyone just because they are from a certain corp. Your understanding of competent brawling appears flawed, approach & F1 works only in very limited situations where the outcome was pretty much decided on the fitting screen. This is exactly the same as in easy kiting fights- press orbit and F1. However, most engagements require the same piloting skills: manual flying, target prioritising, module micromanagement (active tanking is much more prominent in brawling than kiting), knowing when to disengage and having the skills required to accomplish that. I have a few thousand solo and small gang kills across my characters, and I've flown both kiting and brawling set ups across all the ship classes (well ok, never flown the only kiting bs) and I honestly can't agree with your "intelligence and skills" argument favouring kiting. They are simply different methods, each with their strengths and right times and places.
sry i often disagree with Kagura Nikon but here "she" is plain right there is a huge problem in the game getting fights mostly your only chance is to fight while outnumbered. (not counting blob gatecamping or scaning mission runners etc...) if you dont wanna die horribly when outnumbered you have to do kiteing tactics.
havt read the whole discussion between u2 but im against the mmjd in its proposed form cause i think it will break more than it will fix. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
456
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 08:39:00 -
[757] - Quote
I still find it hilarious that the people who are so against this module are completely ignoring how difficult it is to fit a MJD and an MWD to a CBC. That mid slot is super valuable (especially on shield tanks) and the utility, dps and projection you lose from having to downgrade weapons and modules is also crippling.
The balance is in the fitting. Trust me. You will still see plenty of CBC's without MJD's fitted because they are a pain to fit. MJD fitted CBC's will still be catchable and killable too.
This seems to be a rediculous reaction from people. I do still find this thread hilarious though so keep up the nerd rage. Your tears are very sweet. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
19
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 11:46:00 -
[758] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote: sry i often disagree with Kagura Nikon but here "she" is plain right there is a huge problem in the game getting fights mostly your only chance is to fight while outnumbered. (not counting blob gatecamping or scaning mission runners etc...) if you dont wanna die horribly when outnumbered you have to do kiteing tactics.
havt read the whole discussion between u2 but im against the mmjd in its proposed form cause i think it will break more than it will fix.
I'm sorry but that's simply not true on an objective level. People fight in EVE all the time, even we in deep wormhole space find fights on a regular basis. I've personally never had trouble finding the much valued "fair 1vs1s". This may be a matter of location in your case, and if you seriously have trouble finding good fights I'd suggest you move to another region.
Anyway, while this MMJD has the range issue (it's too long for tactical use on CBCs), I've yet to read a single even half-convincing argument that it would somehow reduce PVP.
|
spoon Nardieu
2 Girls - 1 Corp Exodus.
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 12:23:00 -
[759] - Quote
To clarify is the oracle, nado, naga, included in the use of the module. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
19
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 12:31:00 -
[760] - Quote
spoon Nardieu wrote:To clarify is the oracle, nado, naga, included in the use of the module.
No, ABCs can't fit MMJD.
|
|
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
456
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 22:32:00 -
[761] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:spoon Nardieu wrote:To clarify is the oracle, nado, naga, included in the use of the module. No, ABCs can't fit MMJD.
Wish the Talos could though. That thing would suit a MJD |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
236
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 05:09:00 -
[762] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:So now PL vultures cant be bubbled. Seems legit.
And you cant tackle sniping nagas with out a scram. I guess maybe you could always start flying a sniping Naga?
I can see it now - Face off - Sniping Nagas at 100k My opinions are mine. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK. Just don't bother Hating - I don't care.. |
Syon Tavor
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:33:00 -
[763] - Quote
::snip:: double post |
Syon Tavor
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:34:00 -
[764] - Quote
Rasta we wrote:This Game has already become a carebear fest. Please, for the love of all that is great, Stop putting in escape tactics into the game! War p mechanics make it almost impossible to catch someone who's got a heart beat in anything other then a interceptor. Now your gonna make it a requirement for that interceptor to need a Web AND a scram to actually catch anything it has a chance of catching? How about this situation that i see daily.. Pray warps into mission.. MJD's.. shoots.. then MJD's again. Hostile comes in.. scans him down.. warps to his mission.. and the guy is 300km away. Or how about this, Someone afk ratting in a belt of 20.. You jump in, start D-scan and find them within seconds.. warp to his location. Just as you land he MJD's.. lands at full speed then warps. These tactics are ruining the game for everyone other then farmers and cearbears. What about the people who like small scale roams and solo engagements? You can only really catch anything these days on a gate, and if your alone or in a small group.. they simply burn back to gate and split your force.. or cause you to do the stupid Stargate waiting game.. Also, please get rid of the interdiction bubbles that don't stop anything already initiating warp.. i think it's crazy that all a pilot has to do it click "warp" before i light my bubble before it'll catch him. again.. another mechanic designed to enable farmers and hate on anyone that actually takes part in PvP Back in my day we actually used pilot skill to disengage and escape.. Whats the problem with keeping it like that?
How can they MJD if they are afk ratting?
Landing on grid uncloaked while hunting missioners, see anything wrong with that statement?
You want your solo playstyle supported but not any others, hypocritical much?
Good luck going anywhere in null if bubbles deployed after warp drag you out. Group travel will be mandatory unless the system is empty. Dictors will have warp speed rigs, acendancy implants and bookmarks midway between every celestial. One pilot could lock down a system for hours. Fun, maybe. Tell us how you like it after that sabre won't let you leave system because he warps faster; watches you warp, beats you to your target, drops a bubble and watches as you land in the bubble he just put up. Thanks, you just broke d-scan as an intel tool.
Asking for a removal of escape tactics when counters are easily available screams of someone wanting a care bear pvp twitch game. Go back to CoD. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1148
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 17:04:00 -
[765] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:I still find it hilarious that the people who are so against this module are completely ignoring how difficult it is to fit a MJD and an MWD to a CBC. That mid slot is super valuable (especially on shield tanks) and the utility, dps and projection you lose from having to downgrade weapons and modules is also crippling.
The balance is in the fitting. Trust me. You will still see plenty of CBC's without MJD's fitted because they are a pain to fit. MJD fitted CBC's will still be catchable and killable too.
This.
You can fit just an MWD and nothing changes; you can fit just an MMJD and be able to "blink" out of points and bubbles, but at the cost of not being able to close with anything, because battleships can outrun you. Or you can fit both and fly a severely compromised fit.
It's not a win button. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1036
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:49:00 -
[766] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive! ... Let us know what you think! For your enablement of pansification in those wishing to avoid combat with this proposal, we regrettably must add an unprecedented +5 to the Kill-It-Forward queue.
No less than five innocent carebears will be murdered in hisec, and advised it was because of your proposed changes.
Your heresies, our hands, their blood, your conscience.
F
p.s. If every proposed change by CCP isn't washed through a 'does it increase or decrease the likelihood of conflict' ombudsman of HTFU, you have completely lost the plot IMHO.
Would you like to know more? |
Darth Fett
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
59
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:33:00 -
[767] - Quote
Hello Fozzie, I hope you still reading this topic. Implementing MJD with current TQ mechanig is a big mistake - becouse currently it stupid "save me" button, warp stabilizer with infinite streight. Some years ago lock range+scan resolution penalties was addet to warp stabilizers, becouse of PVP, in that you cannot win becouse of opponent can leave in any time - is wasting of time. But now you added warp stab with infinite streight without penalties. Why? If you think that kiters too overpowered - nerf them. Currently speed balance is completely broken. Cruisers flying faster that destroyers and even frigates, battleships faster that battlecruisers. Ishtars (cruiser!) carrying large weapons, that annihilating all in 100+km range, almost immune to ewar, and still receiving only boost in new patch. If you want to add another type of combat maneuring - add penalty, that will offline ship warp core for 1 minute if MJD activated under warp disruptor.
|
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
290
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 23:17:00 -
[768] - Quote
I'm surprised so many people see this module as a possible get out of jail free card.
To me it has lots of potential to let us kill more peeps.
Yes if you want to tackle a CBC you may want to be thinking about a scram now for certain. CBCs have become a greatly reduced sight since the rebalances and nerfs prior to the release of the navy versions on them, I cant think of the last time that I came across a fleet of them anywhere.
So the MJD will perhaps make them seen a bit more both in low and 0.0 fights, this must be a good thing. Certainly beats only seeing fleets of drone assist nano ishtars. At least in a CBC it's you pushing the F1 key not the person that you assigned your drones to.
For myself I will be using small gangs of these ships to MJD TOWARDS the bad guys. People that like to kite battlecruisers, which lets face it at almost zero risk to them, so I for one welcome this module with open arms. I can see all these ships bouncing around the grid to enable warp ins (and yes get away) as rather fun.
The one change I would add is to allow the HIC focused point to work against MJD ships. This is a change that should have happened some time ago. At the moment all you get are snipe fleets at range warping around to avoid bubbles, or tengu setups that cant be probed. Where is the good old fashioned club wielding gang of BS / BC I ask? Consigned to history because range setups makes them very vulnerable, the MJD will hopefully restore this.
Oh and fit a fricken scram if you want to really tackle something. Complaining that you cant keep at range and kill the helpless ship is not a winning argument it just makes you sound like a gutless prick looking for easy kills.
Thanks CCP Fozzie for this change, well needed and much looked forward to by a lot of people.
|
Vulfen
Snuff Box
127
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 09:50:00 -
[769] - Quote
I like this change in some ways and hate it in others. firstly i dont think 100km is the best burst for these ships to launch at, CCP need to make it so you can activate the device and spool it up to a point you want to jump to, giving them more flexibility, if you were to burst further then the reactivation time should be longer.
Currently the only Combat BCs that will gain a good benefit from this module is the Ferox hulls, as they are the only range based Combat BC.
On the plus side i think the introduction of this module opens up a chance for CCP to make a new T2 BC line that utilises these in some new design |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
25
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 10:33:00 -
[770] - Quote
Darth Fett wrote:Hello Fozzie, I hope you still reading this topic. Implementing MJD with current TQ mechanig is a big mistake - becouse currently it stupid "save me" button, warp stabilizer with infinite streight. Some years ago lock range+scan resolution penalties was addet to warp stabilizers, becouse of PVP, in that you cannot win becouse of opponent can leave in any time - is wasting of time. But now you added warp stab with infinite streight without penalties. Why? If you think that kiters too overpowered - nerf them. Currently speed balance is completely broken. Cruisers flying faster that destroyers and even frigates, battleships faster that battlecruisers. Ishtars (cruiser!) carrying large weapons, that annihilating all in 100+km range, almost immune to ewar, and still receiving only boost in new patch. If you want to add another type of combat maneuring - add penalty, that will offline ship warp core for 1 minute if MJD activated under warp disruptor.
It doesn't have "infinite point strength", only one point.
|
|
Gregor Parud
548
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 13:21:00 -
[771] - Quote
Darth Fett wrote:Hello Fozzie, I hope you still reading this topic. Implementing MJD with current TQ mechanig is a big mistake - becouse currently it stupid "save me" button, warp stabilizer with infinite streight. Some years ago lock range+scan resolution penalties was addet to warp stabilizers, becouse of PVP, in that you cannot win becouse of opponent can leave in any time - is wasting of time. But now you added warp stab with infinite streight without penalties. Why? If you think that kiters too overpowered - nerf them. Currently speed balance is completely broken. Cruisers flying faster that destroyers and even frigates, battleships faster that battlecruisers. Ishtars (cruiser!) carrying large weapons, that annihilating all in 100+km range, almost immune to ewar, and still receiving only boost in new patch. If you want to add another type of combat maneuring - add penalty, that will offline ship warp core for 1 minute if MJD activated under warp disruptor.
They have the exact same capabilities a kiter has against the ships these MMJD will be put on; they can disengage at will.
|
Gregor Parud
548
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 13:31:00 -
[772] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:So far I haven't seen any well thought out logic or reasoning from you other than "DOOM, GLOOM, CTHULHU WTF".
You even disqualify your own statements by stating that some stat changes on MJD might fix the "problems".
nice edit;
It's always a good sign when people suddenly stop discussing the subject and start pulling the character card. It means they ran out of arguments and (better yet) they even realise it themselves. Thanks for playing. Nope. I am just disqualify YOUR ARGUMENT. Since as long as you post with a NPC corp character you can be very well someone that NEVER participated in ANY PVP, and have no clue on your statements (altough almost everythign else you post already support that). Youcould be just a carebear. Want your arguments to be takesn seriously? Shyow your face. Show why we shoudl believe you know what you are saying. We had several posts from groups very well known for small scale high level PVP, basically all against your opinion. The character card is not because someone does not have more arguments. It is because we noticed that is futile to discuss with someone that have given us zero reasons to take him seriously.
I missed this one;
Look, lets just call you for what you are. You're a high sec wardeccer who kills newbies and stupids who undock without thinking, while they're at war. As such you're terrified that you might end up missing a kill on some poor sod in his hull repper tanking lvl 2 fit Drake. You're not interested in "balance" or "doctrines", you just don't want to miss out on possible kills.
There is of course nothing wrong with being a high sec war deccer, I do it myself (amongst other things) but I'm not a hypocrite about it and it doesn't mean I'm not seeing through your obvious fear and impending rage about missing some targets (I'll also miss some targets, so fcking what).
Also; if you're going to call the pvp history card it would probably help if your own wasn't filled with ganging on newbies in high sec, just saying. So instead of **** waving (and while mine is non-existent, or rather; unknown on this char, yours isn't exactly measuring up) how about you stick to the facts, logic and reasoning. |
Calexis Atredies
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 13:44:00 -
[773] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive!
This module will begin restricted to Combat Battlecruisers, Command Ships and Deep Space Transports. We will consider expanding it to some other classes in the future but that is a discussion for after we've seen how they work out on these initial groups.
The MMJD uses the same Micro Jump Drive Operation skill as the LMJD and has the same range (100km), spool up (12s base reduced by the skill) and cooldown (3 minutes) as the Large version.
It has the following requirements: Powergrid: 165 CPU: 51 Capacitor: 197
We expect that these modules will be a very exciting option for battlecruisers in both fleets and small gangs.
Battlecruisers have been a little overshadowed by battleships and cruisers in recent months and having the option to use MJDs combined with their dps and low cost should create some interesting chances for clever players to show off their abilities.
These modules will be on SISI for your testing pleasure soon. Let us know what you think!
I like the MJD's in this game, but one thing bugs me.
The "infini-point" of a HIC with focused script is unable to disable the effects of a mjd or MWD, yet can warp disrupt a super catpital.
Please allow focused points from HICS the ability to disable MJD's and possibly even MWD's, you could be making HIC's into viable ships for PVP outside of fleet engagements. It would be a scary prospect on the field for any nano ship! |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1554
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 18:56:00 -
[774] - Quote
Not that anyone is listening to the feedback but i really don't think these mods should jump BC 100km. This basically just makes the mod an escape tool or a re-positioning tool for snipers... and if that is what CCP intended, Tier 3 BC would make the best use out of the, so it's a bit confusing that they can't use them
Instead, these jump drives should jump a BC 50km (maybe release meta versions that jump different ranges). This both brawling fleets and sniper fleets can use them to re-position but it wouldn't be a completely OP GTFO mod.
As i said, i'm under no illusions that CCP will listen/consider/respond to this feedback, but at least i said it. +1 |
Colman Dietmar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 07:55:00 -
[775] - Quote
One thing that's been on my mind, related to MJD, is... why is it that we can warp to some wreck or asteroid in space, but cannot just warp on a set distance in the direction we have aligned to? Why do we need special modules for that, why not make it just a built-in function for all ships (which would be also not immune to any kind of warp disruption)?
It would make combat more dynamic and fluent, making maneuvering a larger part of combat and also accessible to ships bigger than cruiser. |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
237
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 11:42:00 -
[776] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! We've happy to announce that in the Kronos release we will be introducing a new medium version of the Micro Jump Drive! These modules will be on SISI for your testing pleasure soon. Let us know what you think! Any update as to when these might hit Sisi for our testing pleasure? My opinions are mine. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK. Just don't bother Hating - I don't care.. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
25
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 12:35:00 -
[777] - Quote
Calexis Atredies wrote:
I like the MJD's in this game, but one thing bugs me.
The "infini-point" of a HIC with focused script is unable to disable the effects of a mjd or MWD, yet can warp disrupt a super catpital.
Please allow focused points from HICS the ability to disable MJD's and possibly even MWD's, you could be making HIC's into viable ships for PVP outside of fleet engagements. It would be a scary prospect on the field for any nano ship!
You are confusing propulsion modules with warp core strength. You need a special module called "Warp Scrambler" to disable the microwarp-based propulsion modules.
There's a number of ships (half of the interceptors, Keres, Lachesis, Arazu, Proteus, Mordus ships) with bonus to Warp Scrambler (and disruptor) range, if you are worried about being too close you can use these ships. Note that these cannot tackle supercapital ships, you will need a heavy interdictor for that.
Sometimes in EVE you won't be able to have your cake and eat it too.
|
Parthannun Solette
Prime Forces The Methodical Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 18:12:00 -
[778] - Quote
i would have prefered it on my attack battlecruiser instead of on the combat battlecruiser |
Budrick3
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
33
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 18:48:00 -
[779] - Quote
I would not like the Battle Cruiser to gain this ability or any other combat ship besides the Battleships. This gives way to much mobility to ships that are designed for considerable tank and gank.
This too would also just create cookie cutter ships that influence the use of scramblers almost exclusively and negates kiting completely. I like to brawl but I also like to fit kite every now and then.
Leave this ability for the battleships and deep space transports exclusively. Let it be their one trick to influence use of these ships.
Please please do not let multiple classes of ships to take part in this ability. |
Firzam Aakiwa
Circulus Exousias
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 18:51:00 -
[780] - Quote
OK so if i understand the patch note, I would not be able to fit MMJD on my "NAGA" that have poor tracking against close combat and nothing to counter against scram/web (no drone bay), It's not like "Naga" have either OP tank mod. So why not extend it to attack BC. |
|
Gregor Parud
550
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 19:15:00 -
[781] - Quote
Firzam Aakiwa wrote:OK so if i understand the patch note, I would not be able to fit MMJD on my "NAGA" that have poor tracking against close combat and nothing to counter against scram/web (no drone bay), It's not like "Naga" have either OP tank mod. So why not extend it to attack BC.
Because they have speed, damage projection and are natural kiters themselves. |
Firzam Aakiwa
Circulus Exousias
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 22:53:00 -
[782] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Firzam Aakiwa wrote:OK so if i understand the patch note, I would not be able to fit MMJD on my "NAGA" that have poor tracking against close combat and nothing to counter against scram/web (no drone bay), It's not like "Naga" have either OP tank mod. So why not extend it to attack BC. Because they have speed, damage projection and are natural kiters themselves.
Speed do nothing against webfiber, "Naga" is a dead ship if he don't warp out after webbed even a simple web drone can do the job. Vulture now are going to be a beast he can kill webfiber with drone and even escape with MMJD have better shield resist, more tracking, Command ship are not the most needed compare to attack battle cruiser
|
Gregor Parud
551
|
Posted - 2014.05.31 09:22:00 -
[783] - Quote
Firzam Aakiwa wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Firzam Aakiwa wrote:OK so if i understand the patch note, I would not be able to fit MMJD on my "NAGA" that have poor tracking against close combat and nothing to counter against scram/web (no drone bay), It's not like "Naga" have either OP tank mod. So why not extend it to attack BC. Because they have speed, damage projection and are natural kiters themselves. Speed do nothing against webfiber, "Naga" is a dead ship if he don't warp out after webbed even a simple web drone can do the job. Vulture now are going to be a beast he can kill webfiber with drone and even escape with MMJD have better shield resist, more tracking, Command ship are not the most needed compare to attack battle cruiser
Which part of this logic don't you get? It has the CAPABILITY to kite and engage targets from range, just because there's counters to it (mostly about how the pilot messed up) doesn't mean that's a valid reason to say it needs help. A CBC gets to choose nothing, it's too slow to choose to engage or avoid targets and it lacks projected dps to do anything about it. It has NOTHING going for it, that's why you just don't see them much.
At least TRY and use some sound logic, will ya. |
Jen Makanen
Divine Reform The Explicit Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.31 10:50:00 -
[784] - Quote
Bland Inquisitor wrote:I liked the MJD, however my problem with it as most of eve currently is lack of tactical choice, leading to cookie cutter builds for every ship. It would be nice to see some variables with the MJD as an example;
Increase the cooldown and spool-up for increased range, decrease for shorter ranges. This could be set similar to obit range.
Give it some scripts that alter its use. A script to give a massive speed boost for a short burst for example, Or another script that blooms the Mass of the ship making it better at bumping larger ships.
I agree with this.
For some reason I feel that giving BC's the ability to jump as far as a BS hull is a bit overly powerful. As much as I like the MMJD idea I feel like it would benefit more fairly from the idea in the quoted post above. Either that or make it harder to fit on a ship or just give less of a jump for the same spool.
I haven't really looked into this much, only heard about it today, so I'm just thinking about it in grand scheme.
|
Xylorn Hasher
Sumiyoshi-Kai
126
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 19:52:00 -
[785] - Quote
Im only happy that Elite Dangerous will be deployed this year... Time to forget bout Eve I guess. CCPs idiotic ideas like this one ruin game enterly. For them it's just Medium Micro Jump Drive, but for people who hunt in lowsec it will be disaster. First people with 5 Stabs on ships, now this sh*t. I'll think very hard if to pay subs for my 3 accounts or not next time.
CCP you are going in wrong direction for a long time. We need a real expanssion of a scale of Apocrypha not another "let's make this game more idiot friendly" one. All my posts are made shortly after Marihuana-áconsumption. |
Zachtgebakken
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 22:24:00 -
[786] - Quote
This game is starting to look more and more like a magic wizard MMO where you can teleport and cast spells.
CCP we dont need Teleporting ships. You are ruining this game.
|
Gregor Parud
551
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 23:25:00 -
[787] - Quote
Xylorn Hasher wrote:Im only happy that Elite Dangerous will be deployed this year... Time to forget bout Eve I guess. CCPs idiotic ideas like this one ruin game enterly. For them it's just Medium Micro Jump Drive, but for people who hunt in lowsec it will be disaster. First people with 5 Stabs on ships, now this sh*t. I'll think very hard if to pay subs for my 3 accounts or not next time.
CCP you are going in wrong direction for a long time. We need a real expanssion of a scale of Apocrypha not another "let's make this game more idiot friendly" one.
Yes, we can't have solo people get away from your lol-kiting OP gangs, can we. I mean, wtf man. They might actually have a chance of getting away, which is of course not allowed. They should just die and be happy about it! They're ruining low sec with their solo PVP, how dare they! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
256
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 23:28:00 -
[788] - Quote
Parthannun Solette wrote:i would have prefered it on my attack battlecruiser instead of on the combat battlecruiser Yep, unfortunately all the whingers made CCP Fozzie delay it for attack BCs. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
605
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 23:41:00 -
[789] - Quote
Just imagine you had ganglinks limited by radius eventually, suddenly your FC orders your regular BS fleet to MJD and the CS can't follow. So among other things, this allows for all sorts of future boosting ships to remain with almost any sort of fleet. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
|
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
709
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 00:03:00 -
[790] - Quote
Zachtgebakken wrote:This game is starting to look more and more like a magic wizard MMO where you can teleport and cast spells.
CCP we dont need Teleporting ships. You are ruining this game.
It's nothing new.
*points to capital ships and jump portals* |
|
Firzam Aakiwa
Circulus Exousias
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 01:40:00 -
[791] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Firzam Aakiwa wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Firzam Aakiwa wrote:OK so if i understand the patch note, I would not be able to fit MMJD on my "NAGA" that have poor tracking against close combat and nothing to counter against scram/web (no drone bay), It's not like "Naga" have either OP tank mod. So why not extend it to attack BC. Because they have speed, damage projection and are natural kiters themselves. Speed do nothing against webfiber, "Naga" is a dead ship if he don't warp out after webbed even a simple web drone can do the job. Vulture now are going to be a beast he can kill webfiber with drone and even escape with MMJD have better shield resist, more tracking, Command ship are not the most needed compare to attack battle cruiser Which part of this logic don't you get? It has the CAPABILITY to kite and engage targets from range, just because there's counters to it (mostly about how the pilot messed up) doesn't mean that's a valid reason to say it needs help. A CBC gets to choose nothing, it's too slow to choose to engage or avoid targets and it lacks projected dps to do anything about it. It has NOTHING going for it, that's why you just don't see them much. At least TRY and use some sound logic, will ya.
Use your logic you too a Simple CBC can manage a simple frigate with web/scram, CBC have more tracking and have drone bay, lock time not bad, batter tank than Attack Battle Cruiser. ABC have nothing to deal with it, lock time really slow, when a simple frigate with web/scram warp out near you you're dead, So i suppose that a ABC that cost 10X the price of a frigate have to be catch so easilly and have to look does thing turn around you until you die, So LOL. |
Henry Montclaire
The Scope Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 01:57:00 -
[792] - Quote
I like the modules and wish you could put them on attack battlecruisers. I think a lot of the concerns brought up have been really hyperbolic. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
134
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 02:14:00 -
[793] - Quote
It seems that it is a bit late to get input into the implementation of this module in before it is actually launched, but I just want to say that I oppose this modules existence entirely.
The MJD should stay niche to BS' not forcing all smaller engagements to have scramblers.
The only good thing I can say about these modules is that there are only a very limited number of ships that can actually use the, which is the next best thing to them not existing in the first place I guess. |
Firzam Aakiwa
Circulus Exousias
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 02:14:00 -
[794] - Quote
Yeh i like the concept of MJD, i think if they allow the Mobile Micro jump drive to be use by fleet members it will give some more dynamic and strategi, like this a tank can set a Mobile Micro jump drive and the lighter ship of a fleet can come after to use the mobile structure and reach the target safely. |
Henry Montclaire
The Scope Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 02:34:00 -
[795] - Quote
After reading through more of the thread I've changed my mind. Not only should the jump drive not be implemented for battle cruisers, but afterburners, micro warp drives, warp core stabs, and cloaking devices should also be removed, and warping in general should be nerfed.
Utlimately, I think the only thing that will fix Eve and keep scores of leet pvpers from unsubscribing like roaches scattering under a light is for the ability to warp when an enemy ship lands on grid to be totally abolished, and the old 10km off the gate warp should be reinstated so that leet pvpers have more time to catch other pvpers and engage in epic leet pvp.
We all know that interdictors, warp disruption bubbles, and gate camps are all horribly underpowered and need an emergency buff lest solo pvp die forever.
[End Sarcastic Rant.] |
Gregor Parud
554
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 09:30:00 -
[796] - Quote
Firzam Aakiwa wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Firzam Aakiwa wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Firzam Aakiwa wrote:OK so if i understand the patch note, I would not be able to fit MMJD on my "NAGA" that have poor tracking against close combat and nothing to counter against scram/web (no drone bay), It's not like "Naga" have either OP tank mod. So why not extend it to attack BC. Because they have speed, damage projection and are natural kiters themselves. Speed do nothing against webfiber, "Naga" is a dead ship if he don't warp out after webbed even a simple web drone can do the job. Vulture now are going to be a beast he can kill webfiber with drone and even escape with MMJD have better shield resist, more tracking, Command ship are not the most needed compare to attack battle cruiser Which part of this logic don't you get? It has the CAPABILITY to kite and engage targets from range, just because there's counters to it (mostly about how the pilot messed up) doesn't mean that's a valid reason to say it needs help. A CBC gets to choose nothing, it's too slow to choose to engage or avoid targets and it lacks projected dps to do anything about it. It has NOTHING going for it, that's why you just don't see them much. At least TRY and use some sound logic, will ya. Use your logic you too a Simple CBC can manage a simple frigate with web/scram, CBC have more tracking and have drone bay, lock time not bad, batter tank than Attack Battle Cruiser. ABC have nothing to deal with it, lock time really slow, when a simple frigate with web/scram warp out near you you're dead, So i suppose that a ABC that cost 10X the price of a frigate have to be catch so easilly and have to look does thing turn around you until you die, So LOL.
Too bad that your logic assumes that people brawl, where in fact the vast majority kites. oops?
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 09:45:00 -
[797] - Quote
Colman Dietmar wrote:One thing that's been on my mind, related to MJD, is... why is it that we can warp to some wreck or asteroid in space, but cannot just warp on a set distance in the direction we have aligned to? Why do we need special modules for that, why not make it just a built-in function for all ships (which would be also not immune to any kind of warp disruption)?
It would make combat more dynamic and fluent, making maneuvering a larger part of combat and also accessible to ships bigger than cruiser.
Because would make interceptors and any fast ships as well as long range ships useless.
Also MJD warp at 100 km. THe minimum warp distance is 150 km. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 09:49:00 -
[798] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: Engagements are not usually you vs blob trap, or if yours are, you need to work on your skills mate.
YTES they are! BEcause peopel KNOW us and do never engage us without 5:1 advantage! The only way we can have FIGHTs (and on this ia m not countign stalking and ganking a mission runner, but real fights) is presentign us with a massive numerican disadvantage. And when we do that the ONLY way to apply skill in this game is range control and forcing the enemy gang toseparate. That is why forcign everythign into brwaling is stupid. Brawling has ZERO space for pilot skills. Brawling is approach and FIRE and spam neeed armor on fleet channel. Combat must include MORE mobility, MORE kiting not less. COmbat must prize the inteligence, not press aproach and F1. Much rage and hyperbole? I've never heard of you or your corp and I sincerely doubt anyone else would know you either. And even if you were from a known PVP corp, your argument still wouldn't hold true. Nobody blobs anyone just because they are from a certain corp. Your understanding of competent brawling appears flawed, approach & F1 works only in very limited situations where the outcome was pretty much decided on the fitting screen. This is exactly the same as in easy kiting fights- press orbit and F1. However, most engagements require the same piloting skills: manual flying, target prioritising, module micromanagement (active tanking is much more prominent in brawling than kiting), knowing when to disengage and having the skills required to accomplish that. I have a few thousand solo and small gang kills across my characters, and I've flown both kiting and brawling set ups across all the ship classes (well ok, never flown the only kiting bs) and I honestly can't agree with your "intelligence and skills" argument favouring kiting. They are simply different methods, each with their strengths and right times and places.
If you do not know us, then you have not operated in high sec for last 1 year. Simple as that.
I do not need you to agree with my arguments, the intelligence of them assures that they do not need support of inferior and limited minds. Truth can be achieved regardless of the amount of ants that believe or not into it.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
30
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 11:20:00 -
[799] - Quote
Hisec? Are you serious? I thought we were discussing PVP.
|
Jethro Winchester
Collapsed Out Shadow Cartel
3
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 19:17:00 -
[800] - Quote
Hooray!
Another magical get out of jail free card for the risk-adverse carebear from our friends at CCP! |
|
Xylorn Hasher
Sumiyoshi-Kai
126
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 19:39:00 -
[801] - Quote
I don't see where is your problem here. Yes we use good ships and good setups. Yes we feel comfortable to fight in 1-2 Bills worth T3s and with 3-4 Bills worth implants in our heads on dayly basis. Guy lost ~80m, we were risking ~6 Bills each ( It could be cyno ship, bait - you never know ).
Another thing man, semi good fitted Prophecy - 500 DPS at least + 300 DPS from gate guns. Try to fight that yourself you will see how close it is to die in fire in such conditions.
Then, try do all above in cloaky Loki I use.
All my posts are made shortly after Marihuana-áconsumption. |
Gregor Parud
554
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 21:24:00 -
[802] - Quote
Xylorn Hasher wrote:I don't see where is your problem here. Yes we use good ships and good setups. Yes we feel comfortable to fight in 1-2 Bills worth T3s and with 3-4 Bills worth implants in our heads on dayly basis. Guy lost ~80m, we were risking ~6 Bills each ( It could be cyno ship, bait - you never know ). Another thing man, semi good fitted Prophecy - 500 DPS at least + 300 DPS from gate guns. Try to fight that yourself you will see how close it is to die in fire in such conditions. Then, try do all above in cloaky Loki I use. With latest changes we are forced to use +3 True Sasha Warp scramblers or even two on ship because warp disruptors became obsolete. Most people use stabs you see. You think killing is an easy job? Imagine that most of time we have to watch targets for long time before they do a mistake and Its not fun to waste 2 hours of waiting for guy who is stabbed to teeth in situation when cloak + MWD - a tactic old like Eve itself would save him from 99% of camps. But cloak+ WMD requires a skill and a bit of nerves to do it right while stabs are foolproof.
Keep digging.
|
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
290
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 22:27:00 -
[803] - Quote
I'm glad this module is coming for CBCs
Really really glad.
I'm going to use it to shove my harbinger up your ishtars ass.
Repeatedly. The kiting setups have been a cancer on this game. You get to keep range and drop your drones, nothing can catch you and you get to sit back and announce yourself as a leet pvper for pounding slow ships with short engagement windows to death whilst somehow thinking this is a fair or equal fight. There are no fair fights, this is Eve.
When we gate camp we do it with boosted a proteus at zero on the gate, this means that we can get hot dropped and you know have a fight. My corp runs with large numbers of scrams not points for a reason. And tbh if a battlecruiser jumps into a gate that we are on in low sec I would say it is killed almost 100% of the time, cloak or stabs do not help.
So roll on the MJD. I don't see it as a get out of jail free card, I see it as a weapon to be used to close the range, engage scram and club you to death.
Perhaps the people that like to kite can go look for each other and kite each other to boredom. Roll on Kronos, back to BS and BC fleets.
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 09:41:00 -
[804] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Hisec? Are you serious? I thought we were discussing PVP.
4/5 of the targets in eve are in high sec. It is not our fault that the richest hunting grounds are here. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 09:43:00 -
[805] - Quote
Maraner wrote:I'm glad this module is coming for CBCs
Really really glad.
I'm going to use it to shove my harbinger up your Ishtars ass. Repeatedly.
The kiting setups have been a cancer on this game. You get to keep range and drop your drones, nothing can catch you and you get to sit back and announce to yourself that your a leet pvper for pounding slow ships with short engagement windows to death whilst somehow thinking this is a fair or equal fight. Yes yes I know there are no fair fights, this is Eve. But to paraphrase poorly some fights are fairer than others.
When we gate camp we do it with a boosted proteus at zero on the gate, this means that we can get hot dropped and you know have a fight. My corp runs with large numbers of scrams not points for a reason. And tbh if a battlecruiser jumps into a gate that we are on in low sec I would say it is killed almost 100% of the time, cloak or stabs do not help.
So roll on the MJD. I don't see it as a get out of jail free card, I see it as a weapon to be used to close the range, engage scram and club you to death.
Perhaps the people that like to kite can go look for each other and kite each other to boredom. Roll on Kronos, back to BS and BC fleets.
Nope. They have not been. Kiting is one of the 2 only ways LEFT in game that a group can engage large superior numbers of enemies. The other is massive logistic !@#!@##!..
Anyone that use any other way of combat is relyign on numeric superiority, or enemy stupidity to not lose.
The constant nerfing of everything like kitign is the cancer on this game, that pushes more and more into a BLOB only game.
Contrary to the myth, msot of the kiters are much more likely to stay and fight than to run away. In fact peopel use kitign ships sothey can STAY and FIGHT, not run away as soon as more targets appear in local.
So the cowards are not the kitters, its EXACLTY the other way around. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Gregor Parud
555
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 10:03:00 -
[806] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Nope. They have not been. Kiting is one of the 2 only ways LEFT in game that a group can engage large superior numbers of enemies. The other is massive logistic !@#!@##!..
Anyone that use any other way of combat is relyign on numeric superiority, or enemy stupidity to not lose.
The constant nerfing of everything like kitign is the cancer on this game, that pushes more and more into a BLOB only game.
Contrary to the myth, msot of the kiters are much more likely to stay and fight than to run away. In fact peopel use kitign ships sothey can STAY and FIGHT, not run away as soon as more targets appear in local.
So the cowards are not the kitters, its EXACLTY the other way around.
Your sperging would have merit if the vast majority of ships you run into in pvp (you know; outside the jita 4-4 undock) would be CBC. But they're not and that won't at all change. All that'll happen is some soloers and small gangs (will) use CBC and that means you still get to kite the masses and feel superior about it, you just won't have an easy kill on a (solo) CBC simply because you favour running away.
As I put it earlier; you're just scared of losing kills, nothing more.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 10:16:00 -
[807] - Quote
Jethro Winchester wrote:Hooray!
Another magical get out of jail free card for the risk-adverse carebear from our friends at CCP!
These posts are brilliant.
How do you catch said "risk-adverse carebear"?
Solution: Fit a scram!
But wait, then you complain you might die.....
Remind me, who is the carebear again?
If you want risk free engagements, the asteroids are over there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
Colman Dietmar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
56
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:11:00 -
[808] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Because would make interceptors and any fast ships as well as long range ships useless.
But it would not. The fast ships can chase warping BCs and bigger because of the slow warp speed. Speed-fit interceptors could even chase cruisers. Long range ships would be able to warp-kite if something attempts to warp next to them. Similiar techniques are already used, but require premade tacticals or an interceptor to provide a rolling warp spot. |
Chuxies Hareka
Cor Confederation Wreckless.
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 20:32:00 -
[809] - Quote
Wow not gonna lie ccp this is silly the whole point was to use it on a oracle or a talos why cant you use them on T3 cruisers?!
Make it useful, let t3 battlecruisers use it! |
Maraner
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
292
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 20:38:00 -
[810] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Maraner wrote:I'm glad this module is coming for CBCs
Really really glad.
I'm going to use it to shove my harbinger up your Ishtars ass. Repeatedly.
The kiting setups have been a cancer on this game. You get to keep range and drop your drones, nothing can catch you and you get to sit back and announce to yourself that your a leet pvper for pounding slow ships with short engagement windows to death whilst somehow thinking this is a fair or equal fight. Yes yes I know there are no fair fights, this is Eve. But to paraphrase poorly some fights are fairer than others.
When we gate camp we do it with a boosted proteus at zero on the gate, this means that we can get hot dropped and you know have a fight. My corp runs with large numbers of scrams not points for a reason. And tbh if a battlecruiser jumps into a gate that we are on in low sec I would say it is killed almost 100% of the time, cloak or stabs do not help.
So roll on the MJD. I don't see it as a get out of jail free card, I see it as a weapon to be used to close the range, engage scram and club you to death.
Perhaps the people that like to kite can go look for each other and kite each other to boredom. Roll on Kronos, back to BS and BC fleets. Nope. They have not been. Kiting is one of the 2 only ways LEFT in game that a group can engage large superior numbers of enemies. The other is massive logistic !@#!@##!.. Anyone that use any other way of combat is relyign on numeric superiority, or enemy stupidity to not lose. The constant nerfing of everything like kitign is the cancer on this game, that pushes more and more into a BLOB only game. Contrary to the myth, msot of the kiters are much more likely to stay and fight than to run away. In fact peopel use kitign ships sothey can STAY and FIGHT, not run away as soon as more targets appear in local. So the cowards are not the kitters, its EXACLTY the other way around.
I respect your right to your incorrect opinion.
Kitiing tends to be a low risk proposition as you get to select your fights. CBCs typically get less choice especially in small numbers or solo. This module will force choices on kitiing players, risk actually getting scrammed or let your target get away. Or bring a mixed fleet. Either way it's in the game. Oh and I've done a bit of PvP over the years, kiters do not stay around and fight the moment it looks like they might get hard tackled and killed they warp off, typically because they are not stupid. Just my own experience others may differ.
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Gregor Parud
568
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Posted - 2014.06.03 21:27:00 -
[811] - Quote
You're trying to use reason and logic on someone who isn't interested in either, nor in balance. He's just interested in how he may lose a kill on a Drake undocking from the Jita 4-4, and he'll use any kind of warped :logic:, huffing and puffing to try and convince people that MMJD will be really bad for the game, don't you know. |
Da'iel Zehn
Evil Frosty's Premium Liqours and Fine Wines
163
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Posted - 2014.06.03 22:42:00 -
[812] - Quote
Um... there doesn't seem to be any Medium Micro Jump Drive BPOs on the market like the large one. Something change? Daniel Zehn Keeper of Evil Frosty
PLEX for...-á :-) |
Gregor Parud
574
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Posted - 2014.06.04 15:21:00 -
[813] - Quote
So with MMJD out I'm eagerly awaiting the first reports of CBC swarms blotting the sun, people biomassing their kiter chars (who the fck needs navigation skills lol) and kiters dying left and right by the thousands. Scattered voice reports going "dat Drake, he killed all of us! Liberate tutame".
No?
Exactly. |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
172
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Posted - 2014.06.04 16:44:00 -
[814] - Quote
Da'iel Zehn wrote:Um... there doesn't seem to be any Medium Micro Jump Drive BPOs on the market like the large one. Something change?
Someone has them, though. There are a lot of them on the market already. Too many to have come from exploration. (I assume there are also BPCs somewhere, like with the large version.) |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
29
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Posted - 2014.06.04 17:56:00 -
[815] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:Da'iel Zehn wrote:Um... there doesn't seem to be any Medium Micro Jump Drive BPOs on the market like the large one. Something change? Someone has them, though. There are a lot of them on the market already. Too many to have come from exploration. (I assume there are also BPCs somewhere, like with the large version.)
I made 25 of them and they darn nearly sold out within a matter of a few hours... although im happy for the sale.. I am not happy not knowing what to farm or grind for.. don't leave any rat alive is the only conclusion |
Firzam Aakiwa
Circulus Exousias
0
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Posted - 2014.06.04 22:26:00 -
[816] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:So with MMJD out I'm eagerly awaiting the first reports of CBC swarms blotting the sun, people biomassing their kiter chars (who the fck needs navigation skills lol) and kiters dying left and right by the thousands. Scattered voice reports going "dat Drake, he killed all of us! Liberate tutame".
No?
Exactly.
What ever people says and complain i'm happy with this new setup, time to adapte your playstyle with this new change and bring this damn mode for Attack battle cruiser. People are crying much more and fear for nothing just cause something change in the game, i'm happy for the change it make me want to try something news!! STOP play always the same and bring us more change at each patch to make us discover all new possibilty. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
525
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Posted - 2014.06.05 12:09:00 -
[817] - Quote
BPC's come from the Angel Kickbacks escalation at least so I'm assuming they are being seed in anoms etc |
Sunomi Hakuli
VP Security VP Gaming Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.07.19 22:42:00 -
[818] - Quote
It is a handy module to have for large ships to travel with their more fleet cousins. However, the exact distance is of limited tactical value. Would it be possible to add a slider bar like the scanner bar used for the on board scanner to allow for better precision while using the module?That would allow for a much greater tactical use, which could be refined for precision with increased skill levels.
just my thoughts on it. |
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