Frankly, I think we've done well enough to the Ishtar.

In the last 12 months we've seen several consecutive nerfs to the Ishtar and its weapon systems.

• Sentry optimals were (deservedly so) severely reduced.
• Garde tracking and damage were recently reduced, in turn reducing the maximum theoretical and applied damage of the weapon system.
• The upcoming changes provide a significant reduction in the effectiveness of the Ishtar speed tank.
• The upcoming changes provide a total loss of 12.5% on tracking, optimal, and falloff.

These are all big changes. I'm a drone pilot myself, and I'm not opposed to many of these changes. I do think, though, that we have done well enough for now, and should sit tight and see what happens before neutering the Ishtar to the point of obsolescence.

Very many of the "Do this to harm the Ishtar" comments can be summed up simply as "Do this to harm the ship/weapon/style that I didn't train for." I sense a prevailing attitude of selfishness in many of the comments, and urge a more objective look at data instead of the "recommendations" of the CSM and the attitudes of the self-serving.

As a solo pvper in low sec. i do not think its drone weapon system alone. I think its the fact that the ishtar has 5 mids and u cant really 1 v 1 on the same category against a triple DDA + Triple extender + T2 field extender fit ishtar . The passive armor and the active armor fits have atleast certain drawbacks( like reduction of speed and cap dependancy) but the shield buffer version jus has around 14k of raw shields with 700 dps and its very hard to b killed by another HAC or CRecon ( Vaga, Curse, Sac, zealot, eagle, deimos) which is really not being balanced cos u cant neut it , u cant shut down its weapons , u cant speed tank it ( may b now atleast ceptors can live thru a tackle) and after all this tank and dps it can still fit a prop and prop jamming module and it regens shields at 100/s !!!!!!!!!! . Gallente cross fits to shields shud make em glass cannons not a nuclear powered titanium tank . Especially not when the caldari and Minmatar HAC versions which are supposed to support shield system are trash compared to ishtar.

It needs atleast - 1 or even -2 medslots to be put in place with other HACs

Copied into thread due to orders from the thought police see ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365769&find=unread )

Base speeds of other HACs:

ArrowGal
Deimos - 230

ArrowCaldari
Eagle - 190
Cerberus - 220

ArrowMinmatar
Munin - 230
Vagabond- 295

ArrowAmarr
Zealot - 210
Sacrilege - 200

Drum roll...... With the Ishtar being reduced 185.

With this change It will become tthe slowest HAC in the game. Not to mention all other HAC are keeping their bonuses intact. So now the isthar is the slowest HAC with the worst offensive damage projection and least bonuses by percentage. Should an Ishtar really be slower than a sacrilege (A much stronger vessel tank wise.) Without a buff to compensate for the loss in speed and damage projection the ship with extremely sub-optimal in nearly ever situation with either Shield nano or Armor fit. This is a classic overnerf from CCP when responding to whine IMO. If any Gallente ship needs nerf it's the Talos, which vastly out-preforms the other BCs of it's tier in anti-frigate ability, and raw damage output a dangerous combination, but Rise love that ship so it's balanced.

Still only good PVP ships are ishtar and gallente battleships.

Ishtar and Dominix everywhere.

I dont even see amarr or minmatar ships.....


Why don`t change that? That the uglies ships (potatoe dominix) are the strongest.

Copied into thread due to orders from the thought police see ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365769&find=unread )

Base speeds of other HACs:

ArrowGal
Deimos - 230

ArrowCaldari
Eagle - 190
Cerberus - 220

ArrowMinmatar
Munin - 230
Vagabond- 295

ArrowAmarr
Zealot - 210
Sacrilege - 200

Drum roll...... With the Ishtar being reduced 185.

With this change It will become tthe slowest HAC in the game. Not to mention all other HAC are keeping their bonuses intact. So now the isthar is the slowest HAC with the worst offensive damage projection and least bonuses by percentage. Should an Ishtar really be slower than a sacrilege (A much stronger vessel tank wise.) Without a buff to compensate for the loss in speed and damage projection the ship with extremely sub-optimal in nearly ever situation with either Shield nano or Armor fit. This is a classic overnerf from CCP when responding to whine IMO. If any Gallente ship needs nerf it's the Talos, which vastly out-preforms the other BCs of it's tier in anti-frigate ability, and raw damage output a dangerous combination, but Rise love that ship so it's balanced.

I can only add here, what i have seen and expirienced so far by myself:

Ishtar
Even if as a gallente all 5 HAC Pilot i kinda loved it, is indeed OP. a 50 man Ishtar gang and even less makes a BS fleet hide in their POSes in Nullsec atm, even with the Battleship guys in far higher numbers. The sentry volley just alphas the Battleships ... The recieving end is a bitter thing.

If you do not completely smash a solo nanotar in a vagabond, deimos, or ONI, you are provably bad at this game. The Ishtar is a mediocre to poor HAC unless you use it with a very specific cookie-cutter nano sentry fit.

You are hyperventilating because you are upset about dying to Ishtars. They are no cheesier than any other range DPS HAC gets when flying in an enormous logi blob. Get better at the game and get over it.

So now the isthar is the slowest HAC with the worst offensive damage projection and least bonuses by percentage.

what that shows is that the eagle is still far too slow .. and the vaga is too fast ...

ishtar needs a much stronger nerf too its sentry use/dronebay not just a minor speed nerf that doesnt really address the issue

One thing that could be done to fix the issue with HAC balance is to rearrange some of the slot layouts on specifically the Ishtar, Vagabond, and Muninn.

The Ishtar having a 4/5/5 slot layout means that it can easily shield tank and apply more of the low slots to damage modules. Moving one mid to the low for a 4/4/6 will make it so that if you are going to shield tank it you have to sacrifice having Drone Tracking Units.

The problem with both the Muninn and Vagabond is that they have a 6th high that is nearly useless because they don't have the hard points to mount any bonused turrets and are forced to leave it empty to save resources or put useless or highly situational items in the slot like a non-bonused turret, smart bomb, or cloak. The Muninn should have enough mid slots to be able to shield tank and not be forced to armor tank, and the Vagabond should be a 5/5/5 because then you can at least get a reasonable shield tank on it while fitting a MWD and Web/Scram/Point.

There is a reason that of all the HACs in game the ones you see the least are the Minmatar ones.

Vaga is too fast...? What? Its a supposed to be fast. Its fragile as hell when caught. NEEDS 2 TE to project any decent dps at point range, and even then, out of 500dps, only 300-350 is actually hitting target. If anything, vaga's speed should be bumped up and agility increased to actually make it more unique, especially after faction cruiser buffs.

the spare high on a vaga is usually for a neut .. anti frig gear .. a cloak for 0.0 is an option .. it funny you say that about minnie HAC's cos before the buffs to the others . it was usually the Vaga that was the most used HAC .. with zealots and munnins in 0.0 gangs ...

or you could model them after AFs and make them move like BCs.

Vaga is too fast...? What? Its a supposed to be fast. Its fragile as hell when caught. NEEDS 2 TE to project any decent dps at point range, and even then, out of 500dps, only 300-350 is actually hitting target. If anything, vaga's speed should be bumped up and agility increased to actually make it more unique, especially after faction cruiser buffs.

The problem with the Vaga is that ACs suck. The hull and bonuses itself are fine. Name one ship that primarily fits ACs that isn't terrible. That pretty much leaves you with just the Sabre.

AC's have drawbacks like any weapon system does .. but also has some nice benefits ...

Blasters with Null, let alone lasers with Scorch, project damage and track better than ACs. At the range where blaster DPS goes under AC DPS, the DPS of ACs is so low it doesn't matter anymore. It's the same problem lasers and ACs have before you get T2 ammo, blasters outdamage them until the DPS is so low it's irrelevant. It's the main reason Gallente is more popular than Amarr and Minmatar combined, their weapon systems (hybrids and drones) are actually functional at T1, so newer players have to pick them if they actually want to kill anything.

a deimos could barely hit a vaga at 20km's but a vaga can hit the deimos just fine..

well the point of a HAC as defined by Rise .. is as a resilient cruiser .. yet its quicker than a stabber the fastest attack cruiser .. attack being about speed and all .. and just look at the other HAC's too see how slow they are compared too there attack cruiser T1 variants they are based on...

The vaga should trade some 20m/s -30 m/s for more shield HP

Another potential compromise, if you're intent on leaving sentry bonuses on the Ishtar: split out the drone damage bonus. The bonuses would look something like this:

Ship bonus:
50.00% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
25km bonus to Drone operation range

Gallente Cruiser skill level:
7.50% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10.00% bonus to Small, Medium, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill level:
5.00% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
5.00% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

This would let you separately tune sentry damage against other drones, and move the sentry bonus to the Heavy Assault Cruisers skill, which is much more difficult to maximize.